The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Soledad O'Brien

Episode Date: September 27, 2022

Soledad O’Brien joins Andy Richter to talk about mucking horse stalls, being in the newsroom and in college, transitioning to on-camera, being your own boss and more.​

Hello, everyone. You are listening to the Three Questions with Andy Richter. I am and continue to be talking to Soledad O'Brien, who is a journalist and now an entrepreneurial journalist, now owns her own media empire. Started out back at, well, NBC-ish for a while, and at the same time that I think I was there. And everyone wondered if she was Conan's sister and had gotten the job out of nepotism. And also the resemblance, the obvious family resemblance.

But I'm so happy that you could make it. Thank you for spending some time with me today. The pleasure is all mine. And you know, people used to ask me that all the time. Did they really? That's so crazy. Because I know you're joking, but people literally used to say, oh my God, are you related to Conan? And we could not look more different. Like if you were going to pick two people. I know, I know, I know, I know. Yeah. So, so of course I said yes. Yes. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Because why not? Well, your dad's obviously Irish.

I mean. My dad passed away a couple of years ago, but my dad was from Australia. He was, but his grandparents were Irish and my mom was Afro-Cuban. So, of course, my full name was Maria de la Soledad Teresa Marquette O'Brien, which my own little personal cross to bear in life. So obviously your dad had a lot of input into your name. My dad, right? My dad actually named me, my mom used to say, which is, I don't know. He just had a thing for the Spanish.

So, yeah. Right, right. But of course, we're all versions of like the Virgin Mary. Right. Right there, you know. Absolutely. Well, that's I've always, you know, the first time I went to Italy and, you know, everything to see is churches and museums and churches and museums. And you realize like, oh, yeah, there was like hundreds and hundreds of years that Western art was just about Jesus stuff.

Yes. All just Jesus stuff. Yes. All just Jesus stuff. Europe is a very good place to discover, like, wow, El Prado has nothing but kings who make themselves look like Jesus. Jesus looking like a king. Yes. You're like, yeah, after the 10,000th picture, you're like, I'm a little bored in here. Yeah, yeah. I've seen enough Pietas now to fill me. But obviously both Catholic, too.

You've got Irish. You've got like pretty strong Catholic on both sides. My parents met at Daily Mass. Oh, really? Yes. So, you know, yeah. So, you know, the entire, their entire storytelling about their courtship. And they were an interracial couple.

So their relationship, they met at Johns Hopkins University. So their entire courtship was illegal in the state where they lived. Remember, Maryland didn't have interracial marriage until the Supreme Court overturned the ban on it in 1967. And so their entire point of every story they would tell about kind of a dramatic, like how they met, how they got hitched story was. So you see, if you went to daily mass, you could find a man. I did not find my husband in daily mass. Daily mass. Right, right, right.

Definitely not. Well, that's really amazing. So did they. Was it was because I know I read in the research that they had to go to D.C. to get married. Yeah. But then does the state recognize, I mean, you know, does the state recognize their marriage? No, they went back to Baltimore, to Maryland, and lived illegally as a married couple. Wow.

Until, until my, and my, eventually they moved. My dad was a professor at SUNY, the State University of New York, Stony Brook. So eventually they moved to Long Island and Long Island did have interracial marriage was allowed, but you couldn't buy a house because just plain old racism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. No, no. It was kind of a – it's actually a pretty crazy story. And when I tell this story to college students, I think a lot of them think, like, all that stuff was so long ago. Yes. You know, it was way back in the day.

And I'm like, my little brother – like, by the time I was born, my parents' marriage was still illegal. My parents' marriage wasn't legal until my little brother was born. And he was the sixth kid in our family. Yeah. See, that – that is true. I mean, to have six children in a supposedly illegal marriage, which I guess, you know, I mean, they just didn't get the tax benefits. You know, that was probably the biggest sting.

But, yeah, and that's the kind of thing, too, when you, you know, when one argues online with racists and they say, well, there's well, or just the whole reason that the voting that has long lasting effects, not being able to buy property until the 70s, not being able to get married until the late 60s. Yeah, I used to have these conversations about slavery. You're like, yeah, so it might be hard to have equal wealth building when for a whole bunch of years, you're working for free. Right, right, right, right. Just think about that for a whole bunch of years you're working for free. Right, right, right, right. Just think about that for a moment. Yeah, the basic thing about like not being able to own property,

because that's how generational wealth is created, is your folks owned a house. They, you know, they could borrow against the house when they die. Then they give you the house and then you take that house and buy another house. So if you're in these red line districts where you can't buy property, you can't lay down a foundation of wealth for your kids. And the GI Bill, right? GI Bill was accessible to veterans coming back from the war, unless you were black. Levittown, the new development in Long Island that was revolutionizing how people were going to be living in suburban America. Not if you're black. They literally had lines in the contracts that said black people are allowed to come in and work, but they cannot live here.

That was in the 1960s and 50s. So, you know, it was very, very clear. I think one thing I have found as a reporter, I get very frustrated by people not wanting to do those dives into history. Right. And they're just kind of like, I don't know how we, 56 years, like not so far ago, we had a very different system. So I think if you don't look at history and you don't give context, you know, it's really easy to not understand why we are where we are. Yeah. Well, now you were part of a big family. You're fifth of six, right?

Yes. By then my parents had given up, you know, because the first one, they're very strict. The second one, they're pretty strict. The third one, you know, by the time you get to fifth, you're like, oh, for God's sakes,

just when you come in, don't make any noise. Don't wake up me and dad. But they also too, I think, I mean, I only have, I only have two kids, but I do think that like you're, at least your parenting gets a little more.

You know, I think with the first kid, I was like, I was like in situations to like an airline pilot, like, how do you want an airline pilot to be? Do you want them to be afraid that they're going to crash or do you want to be that them to be sort of blase about flying an airplane? And by the time there's the fifth kid, it's like, look, we're probably not going to heal. We shall probably live. So, you know, like there's probably just a nicer, looser, you know, lighter touch by the time you're that age. I think you're just tired. I think you're tired.

But I think for the first kid, you're like, I will only puree fruit and vegetables for this child. It's so important that this baby gets nutrition. My kid will never eat sugar. They will never watch TV. And then you're like, you know what? I think this thing in this little pop top is just fine. Cheetos were good for me. I'm sure they're going to be fine.

And also, I'm going to park her right here in front of the TV so I can go take a shower. And look how happy it all makes her. Look at how happy she, how happy sugar makes her. Let her have it. Yeah, exactly. Right. Everyone's going to be, we never even had cars like seatbelts when we were growing up. Oh no. I used to lay in the back window, like lay full length in the back window, which what a projectile I would have been in a, in a collision. And only your mom's hand. Remember they would drive, they'd be like, and they put their hand out. Well, you still do that. Even with seatbelts, you still do that. Yeah. But that was all there was. That was it. If your mom didn't have a strong forearm,

you were screwed, completely screwed. Yeah. Well, um that a high-achieving household? I mean, your parents seem like high achievers. I mean, your dad's an intellectual, a professor, and your mom, I forget what your mom did. Yeah, my mom was a Spanish and French teacher at the Smithtown School District. I grew up in Long Island. So Smithtown School District, she was at Smithtown West and then came over to my high school for a moment. Yeah, I think my family was, we were pretty strong academically. My parents were pretty strict, which meant, you know, like there was lots of time to be studying and not so much time to be doing

other frivolous things. And, you know, I do think when you look at when people have advantages, I just think one big advantage that people don't give a lot of credit for is if you've had parents who've gone to be doing this. By 10th grade, you need to be thinking about this. By 11th grade, you're now doing this. So you have a resume that can get you into college. In 12th grade, you're waiting, you know, do you go early decision or early action? There's just so much to know. And I don't even think I realized it till we, my husband and I started a small foundation to send girls to college. But for most of them, their parents just didn't even go to college. So they didn't have a lot of, you know, their whole life. There wasn't someone with an expectation of going to college. And there wasn't really somebody who knew how to navigate.

And it just was a tremendous advantage. So, yeah, we were academically quite strong. But I think a lot of it was because my parents were academically very strong. And you all went to public school? We went to public school in Long Island. Shout out to Smithtown High School East. I think we were the Indians. I hope they've changed the name since then.

Because Long Island was full of Native American tribes. I hope at least, at the very least, we've moved it to like Native Americans. Right, yes. So I hope we've done that. I haven't been back in a zillion years. And then we all went off to college. At some point, all of us went to Harvard, either the law school or the med school or undergraduate. Wow. Yeah. Expensive, really. That's the wow. I was like, wow, that's a lot of money. Well, I was going to say, why didn't they

send you to Catholic school? And now I know why they sent you to public school, because they had a lot of money to spend on college. Have you ever seen pictures of the Long Island Catholic schools? They took a picture. All the kids are smoking in the... Oh, really? Oh, wow. Come on. You need to spend more time in Long Island, man.

Come on. When I was a kid, the Long Island Catholic schools were hardcore. Really? Really? Those were where the rough kids went? Some of them. Some of them. Yeah, absolutely. Wow, that's amazing.

Well, what kind of kid were you in school? I mean, what were you into? Were you rebell into? Were you rebellious? Were you a rule breaker, a rule follower? I think if your parents are immigrants, I mean, this is a conversation both, I think, people whose parents are Black and people whose parents are immigrants. Because I had friends who'd say, well, just tell your parents you're not doing it. Just tell your parents no. And I was like, and that will be the last thing I ever do on this here earth. Like, it's just not done.

Like, there's no version where you just stand up to your parents and say, listen, sister, I'm doing it my way. It just never, I mean, certainly not in the set, but even now, like, no, it doesn't happen. So we were all pretty well behaved, pretty studious, pretty quiet. I love to work. So I had a job pretty early on at age 13. I was mucking stalls because I loved, I loved horses and I had to pay for my, you know, one thing, like my parents were solidly middle-class. And so, you know, like if you wanted

to do something that was above and beyond expense wise, you know, like for the most part, you're going to have to pay for it. You know, if you, if you join the school soccer team, you, you know, they, they give some money for 20 bucks to get the uniform, but, but anything outside of that and horseback riding lessons were, and still are very expensive. So I wanted to, to learn to ride. And there was a brief time where I thought I might be able to sneak a horse into my house and no one would notice. Did not happen. So I started mucking stalls to pay for my riding lessons. And to this day, I love horses and I love riding. And it really, it's like one of the things that I can say,

that was a dream and a goal and check, did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Accomplished that. Well, I think also there's a horse girl, Jean. My daughter had it for a while and she loved all, she probably loved the upkeep of the horses as much as she loved the actual riding of the horses, you know? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You just like to be around horses, which actually when my daughter started to ride

when they were pretty young, I loved it because, you know, horses are not like shopping malls. Like you're not hanging out with your friends. You know, you're just literally sitting there rolling a wheelbarrow or brushing or doing all this manual labor versus, you know, meeting up with guys at the mall. So I was like, I will pay for that manual labor stuff. Do you ever worry about that being like too solitary for a kid? And like, you know, I mean, I mean, do you start to worry like she's too into the horses? Yeah, yeah. She needs to talk to humans. Yes.

You know, and really during the pandemic, I have one daughter who was living her best life in the pandemic. She's an introvert, right? So she loves to cook. The one request, she made dinner every night during the pandemic. And her one request was like,

your knives suck. And if I'm going to do this, you need to invest in some good knives. Wow. She's, yeah. So I was like, happily, yes. Because I don't really cook. I'm a air fryer. I place things in the air fryer and then go. But she really, like she, you know, she likes to be a homebody. And so we definitely are like pushing that kid to go out. And then my other daughter, and I think those kids who need to be a homebody. And so we definitely like pushing that kid to go out. And then my other daughter, and I think those kids who need to be going out more, like eventually they get sick of horseback riding and they get sick, you know, if they don't have a good click of girls at the barn

or something or friends at the barn, then they move on to other things. My other daughter quit and she became a competitive diver. And really, you know, she liked being out with her friends. Like the idea of spending all day Saturday brushing a horse was not really her idea of fun. Yeah, yeah. So I think each kid kind of eventually figures it out. Did your boys like it? Like horses too? My one son rode for about two minutes.

And, you know, at the beginning how they have like lead line, all that early stuff. And then everybody gets a blue ribbon. I think he loved the idea of, he liked the idea of winning, although I'm not sure you're really winning. But, and then I think for boys, it's a little harder in this country. In Europe, it's a little bit different, but in this country, because there's so many other sports for them. So the minute sports showed up in school, both of my sons kind of just, you know, had a million that they wanted to play soccer. They wanted to play lacrosse, you know, and it's hard because not a lot of other boys were riding in Europe. I was in Spain in April, a girlfriend of mine lives there. And a lot of boys, you know, do competitive show jumping because they don't

have like here in the U S we have like hunter. Like, slow, lopey, pretty. You know, it's all about form. And jumpers are just run at it at full speed. Go as fast as you can. Don't knock anything down. And then you win. So, there's so many, like, young. Yeah, that appeals to boys.

Yeah. So many. And there's no form. There's no style. Just don't fall off. And you start, the entry level into the shows is three feet high which is high it's a meter high like yeah yeah it's crazy so I think there's a lot when I went to horse shows there a lot more young you know 12 year old boys 13 year old boys uh you know doing

that because it's very you know it's hardcore and scary and kind of wild. I think my son would have been more into that than the lope around on a horse in a nice way. Yeah. Yeah. Is it, do you ever, I mean, because there's just, I know I'm speaking from experience that like when my daughter was doing it, I was, there was this feeling of like, like if she gets into this, she's going to just be around rich people. Like, is there ever that class concern for you about, about equestrian stuff? Because it can be, you know. Yeah. I mean, that was my experience, right? Like I was never a person who'd be able to buy a horse when I was a kid. My parents, I mean, not only would they not do it, they just

couldn't afford to and keep up the upkeep. Yeah. You know, I think for kids who want to figure it out, they can, you know, for, I was never that great of a rider as a kid, but I've always been in barns where you could have somebody who did not grow up wealthy, but they are a talented rider. So they have catch rides and they, you know, there's a lot of like middle-aged ladies like me, right. Who are happy to have a 16 year old who really knows how to ride, middle-aged ladies like me, right, who are happy to have a 16-year-old who really knows how to ride take their horse to a show or take their, you know, and so I think there is a way. I could never do it. I wasn't a good enough rider, but I think there is a way for a solid rider. But it really is a problem because once you get to a certain height where you actually need good

horses, and a good horse is a lot of money, and if you want to be competitive, like, you know, then I went to see the Grand Prix, which was held in Central Park one year. And I just asked a friend there, I said, so like, how much is that horse? Georgina Bloomberg's riding a horse. Like how much roughly is that? He said, there's not a single horse in this ring that costs less than a million dollars. Wow. That's insane. But for a horse, but there's also a zillion other ways to, I mean, I knew a lot of people. And when I was growing up, you know, who just, who had a little backyard kind of horse that they rode around. And yeah, I, I don't do a lot of competing. I just, it's not my thing. Uh, I don't, my, my daughter does some competing, but I think she does it for fun. I don't think she's ever going

to be, she doesn't want to be a trainer, you know? So I think it depends on what path you're on. I think you're really in trouble if you have great dreams to be a competitive, high-end Grand Prix rider and you don't have money. It's just, it's just almost impossible to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, cause I grew up around a lot of horsey kids and it was, and it was expensive, but it was, you know, it was like, if you already had a farm, you could, it's easy to have a horse. You know what I mean? You already got the barn and everything and you don't care about it. You know, you're not going to, it's not going to be pooping in the pool. So it's not a problem. You know, exactly. It's all, it's all like, you know, what's its confirmation? Is it a good mover? I mean, when I was growing up, it was, you know, was it safe? Could you hop on and have fun?

Yeah. Nobody cared. Like, is it going to win in the ring at this fancy show? Then you start getting into serious money. And like, that's impossible. Yeah. Well, what were you interested in school? Like, did you set out to be a journalist? No, I was pre-med.

Oh, really? Yeah. I took organic chemistry with my sister, who's a surgeon. And at one point, she said to me, she said, I don't understand why you memorize all this stuff. Because I was pretty good at like, I can take in a lot of information and then I can like regurgitate it. It's actually a pretty good skill for being a local reporter. Like, I guess, yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, and then I could go to bed and forget about it the next day. And she said, you know, why do you memorize this?

Why don't you try to understand? Like, the formula for a line is obviously y equals mx plus b. You only have an xy-axis. b is a variable in space. What else could it be? And I was like, I literally have no idea what you're talking about. Whoosh! Yeah, yeah.

But I got her point, which was like, you're not really passionate about it. You're good at it, but you're not passionate about, like, wanting to understand the science, which was very true. And so I was in a bit of a crisis because I didn't know what to do. I mean, I had been a candy striper. I'd worked in a nursing home. I worked in a farm, right? I was like, check the box, check the box. When I apply, you know, I'm going to be able to look at all the things I've done medical that will get me into college and get me into medical school. And, and then I decided I didn't

want to go and I didn't really know what else to do. So I dropped out of school and I started working at a TV station. And actually being pre-med helped a lot because the woman who interviewed me for my first job there, I was an intern first, and she was a medical reporter. And she said, you know, what's the big story? And at that time, AIDS, AIDS, I don't even think it was HIV yet. I think it was AIDS actually was the big story. And so we would, you know, and I sort of just followed it because I love medicine. And I got hired on the spot. And that was really my entry into working in TV news, working for the medical reporter. Although God knows, I could diagram a molecule and I probably could probably write some formulas or something, but I didn't know

much about medicine at all. But it was a really great job and a really great entry into TV news generally. What was it about TV news? I mean, how did it just kind of come up and you know like oh they're there i saw an ad for interns at the at the local station harvard has a book i was an undergrad at harvard and harvard had i think it still does have a book called the harvard guide to careers it's not very big it's like this but it's like a little soft cover book and it just kind of lists like all these careers and And I remember going through it and being like, accountant, no, physicist, no, you know, and just checking like, and I thought, well, I'd like to write, I'd been an English major as well. And I thought,

maybe I should try working in media. So I got an internship at the station in Boston, WBZ TV, and I loved it. And what I really love, I mean, the thing that I, which is so weird, right? Because when you tell young people to go like try jobs, the thing that you find appealing was not, well, wow, you know, news media, it's so interesting. It really was, I love being done at the end of the day and the next day you get to start over, completely clean slate, right?

It could be, you could have the most amazing show or you could have an absolute bomb of a show. But it was like, okay, I guess we'll try again tomorrow. Yeah, yeah. And I love that. I loved the creativity, but under very strict rules and under a real-time commitment. Like, it wasn't going to be just spend the next six months working on this. Like, doing docs is very different.

I do a lot of docs now where you might be on a project for two years, three years. But I love, like, tight deadline, got to get it done. You got to air boom. And it might be amazing or it might be terrible, but we move on. I really, really love that. I always felt that that kind of the strip television, whether it's news or whether it's entertainment, that's daily and that, you know, that you, you you got to fill this slot however many days a week uh and also i've also directed television commercials which are kind of the same thing it's that has a game show aspect to it it has a beat the clock get as much as you can into the space and you know like you've got this container whether it's half an hour 60 minutes or whatever, get as much stuff as in as much stuff into it and get it in there. Well, and, and you, you don't have any choice.

You know, I think I don't, I mean, I have attention deficit, definitely. So I think that it appeals to me in that way, because it is like, there's going to be a deadline, this is going to be over and I'm going to be done. So it's this hyper-focus for a short period of time. Put it out there. And then, like you said, go home. I don't have attention deficit, but I do. I love having 10 projects running at once. And it's kind of a similar thing, right?

Like you have all these, you're just doing it and then it ends and you're doing it and then it ends. And I always loved if you did a show in this very tight time crunch, shoving it in that, you know, 30 minute or 60 minute window. And it was great. It was magic. And if it was terrible, you're like, oh, merciful God, it's over. Oh God, that was the worst thing ever. And, but it just, it was, there was something I just really loved about the magic. I mean, the magic of like pulling us, you know, come on, let's who's got a barn. Let's put together a show. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, it was not acting and it wasn't singing and it wasn't dancing. But I love the idea of like pulling all the elements together. When I started anchoring, I love the idea of being a bit of a quarterback of it. Like my job is to get a seamlessly from this to this, to this, to this and understanding enough to make it all work. And that was fun too, to feel like, you know, there was a, you're the choreographer of, of making this whole thing, you know, work out. Yeah. When you, when you go back to school after this internship, does it, does it change the direction of your schooling? Like, do you? No, not really, because I was an English lit major as well, right?

So I just had to finish a bunch of classes and a handful of classes. What had changed was my relationship with my teachers because I didn't go back for 15 years. I was the anchor of Weekend Today when I went back to college. Wow. Oh, you didn't get your bachelor's or your master's? I didn't get my bachelor's. Wow. I had a working credit card. I was pregnant with my first child. And so I loved my professors. They were just smart, interesting people. I was 10 years older than my teaching assistant.

Wow. I was covering the Elian Gonzalez story. And I'd say, listen, I'm so sorry. I'm just not going to be, I've got to fly down to Miami to do this. But I'm going to FedEx my paper to you. She's like, oh my God, you don't need to FedEx your paper to you. And I would be like, no, no.

I will send you my paper. I will, I will, yeah. So it was great, actually. I really enjoyed the experience because it's, I think when you're, at least for me, when I was in college, you have that relationship with your friends. But, you know, professors, like, you know, you have ones you like and ones you don't like. But I wouldn't say that you have this, like, fun intellectual, you know, not that I was their intellectual equal, but, like, we had interesting conversations about things, which was, it was really an interesting way to go to school. The only issue was because I was pregnant, I was so sick all the time. I used to think I'd pay someone money to go sleep in their

bed in the Harvard dorm. I just was like nauseous constantly. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's, I think it's, you know, because they're grownups and you're, when you're, when you're a kid, you're still a kid and they're grownups. And so there's that, that, that separation. Yeah. Why was it so important to you to, you know, you were working, you know, it wasn't, it was my best friend who was my executive producer at weekend today. She said to me, you've got to finish. And I was like, well, who cares? And she's like, you just don't leave things undone. Don't leave things undone. You're about to have a baby. Don't leave.

So I was able, because I was doing weekend today, I had all my classes Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And I would go up on Amtrak on Sunday night. And I'd come back on Wednesday night. And then I worked at weekend today, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Wow. So we could kind of make it work. She was so right. Because obviously, once you have a kid and once you're not doing a weekend show, it's just never going to happen.

Yeah, yeah. So I thought it was really genius of her, but I didn't care. My husband, of course, ran around telling everybody that he was sleeping with a co-ed, which I thought was charitable because I was a big, really like giant. Pregnant co-ed. Pregnant. But like every time you want to move over in bed you're like okay here it goes so it wasn't as it wasn't as sassy as it's what he would say it it didn't it really the reality right right didn't quite match what he was describing right well you know men will

take whatever they can get wherever whatever bump up they can get. Well, how do you not, who hires you away from school? I finished school and actually because I was at NBC. No, no. I mean, while you were still in college and then you said you had to go back to finish. That was my first job. I got a job as a production assistant at the local station. Wow. I've been an intern there. So they hired me. And how does your college professor and teacher mother feel about you dropping out of school? My daughter was asking me that the other day. I think because I immediately, during the summer, I was working. I was working and then I went straight into a job. So I never had like I'm sitting on the couch depressed, eating Cheetos, waiting for the phone to ring.

I was always – so I think that they knew that I wasn't going to go to med school, which I think they were fine with. And I think they thought like, well, she's trying to figure out what she wants to do. I don't think anybody wanted to pay for another year at Harvard, which was expensive then and more expensive now. I don't think that anybody wanted to pay for, and with a person who had no idea what they wanted to do. So I don't remember them being particularly unhappy about it, but they were, I don't even think we had a single conversation about it actually outside of like, hey, I think I got this job in Boston. I'm going to start working at this TV station. And it was a real job and it was a busy job, you know, so I immediately went into a thing. Yeah. And I think I think that made a big difference. I think if I had been home even for a week and a half, just sitting around saying like, I don't know what I want to do. That would have. Yeah. That would not have. I also have a hunch

that they probably trusted you. Like you probably had given, shown them enough, you know, like self-motivating that they knew like, okay, she's not, you know, she's not laying on the couch like you said. I was always a kid who needed a job because I like to have stuff, right? I wanted horseback riding lessons. No one's going to pay for them. I'll get it. I want to buy some clothes. I'll have a job.

You know, so I think I was, I've always been a bit of like a hustler. I'll make it happen. I told you, I was trying to figure out like, because they had all these horses that you could adopt. I'm like, well, I should just adopt a horse. They're free, basically. Wait a minute.

Even though I'm a high school junior, I might be able to make this work. It's a free horse. I can see like, maybe I could talk my neighbor into putting the free horse in her backyard. And I could make enough money on my job to get some food for the free horse. You know, I'm literally always trying to like figure out like what was the maneuver I could do to make it work. So I think I think it would have been very different if I'd been sitting around. That just would that not would not have gone.

Yeah, yeah. Well, so you start as a PA, which is where everyone in any kind of entertainment communications work should start. Do you like cream with that, sir? Yes, exactly. Two sugars or one sugar? How many copies do you need made? You know, just all of that kind of stuff, I think, is very, very important. And I wish I wish so much that there were actors like that.

Every actor had had to be a PA because they're just they don't understand how it works. And then they're like, why is it taking so long? And I always feel like, well, you wouldn't know, would you? You would have no idea why it's taking so long. But everybody should have that. I mean, it really, that's why I love internships in any job, because I think you learn a lot about yourself, right? And then you also learn like, oh, I thought being a lawyer would be all this, but actually

it's a whole bunch of paperwork or it's a whole bunch of meetings or it's a whole bunch of, you know, so I love when young people get to like sit in and try to see what they like about a job and what, because, you know, usually the part that you're good at is not, wow, they came in and immediately were an amazing accountant. It's, boy, they're so good with people. And that's what made them good at their job is because they just had a way, you know, this little skill. So I think figuring that out about yourself was really good. Right. And they get all the coffee orders right. So that means they can handle responsibility and they can think in an organized way and they can pay attention to detail. Yeah. It's all,

it all is the same thing. So do you think you're going to be on camera from the beginning of this thing? Is that where you're aiming towards? Or did you know? No, I liked being a producer. I was a PA and then I became a producer. I loved it. I love being, especially at NBC News, you know, you're in the field by yourself a lot. Like I was 25 driving around Oklahoma, you know, just by myself, like doing a ton of shooting.

Correspondent would come in. I worked with a great guy, Bob Bazell, who was brilliant. But mostly, you know, like I handled it and he, you know, and then I would turn over everything to him when we came back. So I had a lot of autonomy. But I remember watching an anchor woman in local news and thinking like, she was actually, it was when the Soviet crisis was really, the Soviet Union was disintegrating. So this was probably what,

the late 80s, early 90s. And I'm watching this woman try to do an interview, and she has no idea what she's doing, literally. Remember, this is pre-Google, because now all the anchors would be like, what is the Soviet Union? You're suddenly faced with a story breaking that you literally have no context for at all, right? You haven't studied it. You know nothing about it. You vaguely know a little bit from what you've read in the paper. That's it. And so it's very different than it is today.

But, and I was watching these questions that, you know, she's interviewing. And I was like, well, these are terrible questions. I could do this. Like, this is not a good interview. I mean, I could definitely ask stupid questions. I mean, these are Like, this is not a good interview. I mean, I could definitely ask stupid questions. I mean, these are not like I had studied the Soviet Union in college a little bit. So I thought and I think that's really what gave me a little bit of confidence, you know, thinking, well, she doesn't know what she's doing. And, you know, and here she is doing it.

So, yeah, like, I could ask some questions, too. And that made me think, then I think working with Bob at NBC, because as his producer, he was the talent, he was a correspondent. So, you know, for him, if he decided like, no, actually, I think the focus of the story should be this, that's what it was going to be because he's the talent, right? Yeah, yeah. It was his story. It was his call. And I like the idea of idea of well I'd like it to be my call like you know if I'm if I'm telling the story then I kind of get to decide what questions I ask and and what the focus is going

to be so it gave you a certain amount of power and I think that's the part that I like that you had a lot more ability to direct how you wanted the story to go or what you thought was important in the story right yeah and as you get more poised and as you get more experience, you realize, no, I, you know, it's all decision-making. Like almost every job ends up being about making decisions and making them quickly and making them assuredly. And so, yeah, that as you get into it, you want to be the person making the decisions. And I also, I love that you say like that you're inspired by somebody who doesn't do it very well because, you know, so many people will say, don't compare yourself to anyone else. You're your own unique, you know, fragile Fabergé

egg. Don't compare yourself. And I think that like comparing yourself is the only way that you find your space in a, you know, within this big ape troop that we all live in. And throughout my career, holy shit, that guy can do it. Oh, man, if that guy can do it, then I certainly can do it. That has been one of the most valuable engines in going forward. And I mean, and I'm not even just talking work. I'm talking about like, you know, marriage, having kids, you know, like, you know. Driving a car. Buying a house, you know. I mean, yeah, my daughter is 16 and she just started driving recently. And I remember, and she even told me that it mattered to her that I told her once, I was like, think about all the idiots you know that drive a car.

My dad said that. How many really, really stupid people are out here driving cars? And there they are. I think you can handle it. And driving well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And driving perfectly well. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Perfectly well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Can't you tell my loves are growing? So when does that first opportunity arise to be on camera? I was sent to San Francisco when I was at NBC News to become a local reporter. They needed somebody.

They just had this big strike. So it was the writer's strike. What was that, 91 maybe? I don't, I was, I think it, yeah, because it predated my television work. So, yeah. So there was a writer's strike. So they were, so I was, I went to,

and the writer's strike had ended and I was sent out to San Francisco to report, I think it was three or four days a week, but I had never been on camera. And so they paid me, I remember I was paid $30,000 a year. Everybody else made 90 if you're a real reporter, but I loved it. I moved into what I thought would, they told me was Dob Hill, but it was really Tenderloin in San Francisco. And a little apartment. That's a bait and switch. apartment and my, my boyfriend at the time was now my husband was living in, in Palo Alto. He was working, um, in Silicon Valley. And so, uh, so I was nice cause I got to be, you know, kind of close to him and start working in TV news, but I had never been on camera before. So it was a bit of a tricky transition because going from being a, even a pretty good producer to, you know, to

actually being on air and seeing all the weird things that you do on camera that you like, you know, to actually being on air and seeing all the weird things that you do on camera that you like, you never realize that you do and try to figure out, you know, your voice and who are you? And, and my mom used to say like, do you have to wear a jacket? You look so serious. I'm like, yes, yes. That's what we wear jackets. What did she want? Like a nice summer dress? You know, I just look very serious. I'm like, well, I'm reporting on a car crash. So yes, I'm very serious. But yeah, it was a lot of fun and it was a great place to learn. And it was pre-internet, which was really great because you could make a zillion mistakes and as embarrassing, as awful as it would be, it wasn't like it was going to live into perpetuity, which I think would be very hard for young people these days.

Yeah. And by the way, just out of curiosity, how did you and your husband meet? perpetuity, which I think would be very hard for young people these days. Yeah. And by the way, just out of curiosity, how did you and your husband meet? We met in college. So I was running to be the president of my house. Harvard has 14 houses, and I lived in Cabot House. And he was in a grooming group. So I went over and asked them for their support and their vote, which they all assured me that they would give me, which I found out later that they know and vote.

They didn't vote. Like the last thing. They didn't vote at all. At all. They were like, sure, nerd, we'll vote for you. No problem. Which I guess is better than voting for my competitor, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not much better, but it's a little better.

And so that's how we met. We became we were good friends for a long time. And then we started dating, really, when he moved out to San Francisco. OK, so. Then the next is your first national exposure on MSNBC. My first national exposure was MSNBC. Yes. My first national exposure was MSNBC. Yes. And that was, and you were there in the day where it was still, it was still wet. We did a show, a taped show called The Sight.

I know, I was going to ask you about it. Oh my gosh. And The Sight was, oh my goodness. Well, the problem is, of course, cable shifted very dramatically once Princess Diana died. If you remember, that was the moment when cable went from like, here's our programming to rolling live coverage of an event that's breaking. Yes. And being able to cover it in a way that the broadcast networks could not and were not doing. Diana's death kind of killed our TV show, our cable show, which was called The Sight, which was basically a look at TV news about what was happening in the world of tech, which was so ridiculous because we did six hours a week. I mean, I had no idea how we did it.

It just was, I mean, no one ever really reported on tech for a general audience on TV that way. We had a 588 modem. We'd have to wait for it to load, a giant TV. We'd go out for lunch breaks and let everything load for the stories we were doing. It was really interesting. And I think the most interesting thing for me was I really like creating something, you know, just kind of like we're going to try a thing and I don't really know much about it. So I don't come in with any preconceived notions of like, oh, my gosh, I've done eight other tech shows. So here's what works. Here's how it has to go.

Yeah. And also tech show. There was no such thing. They had some. PBS had a tech show. We had a little bit of competition. And it was kind of like for hardcore, like tech nerds, you know, who really. Yeah, yeah. Ours was, so you're a grandma and it was kind of like for hardcore, like tech nerds, you know, who really. Yeah, yeah.

Ours was, so you're a grandma, and you want to keep up with the kids. Like, we're going to show you basic HTML. Or let's talk about how you can use the internet to help find your long-lost so-and-so. So it was very different in tone. But I love the idea of building something. And for good and for bad, one time I was asking the people who, the site was original about it. It was a TV show that had a website. That's why it was called The Site, which no one had a website for their TV show. But you couldn't,

it was very hard to navigate. It was beautiful. We won a bunch of awards for it, but it was impossible. And I remember saying to them, like, so I'm looking for an interview that I did with a person. I cannot find it. There's, I cannot search for it. There's no way to like, and I am the most motivated, right? I am in this interview. I am motivated. This is not a really easy to navigate, you know, and there was always that pull between like, how does it look and is it functional and navigatable? And often those two things were not, you know, you got one or the other. Let me put it that way. Yeah. Yeah. I saw some, I looked at some early clips of it and it really does have that. This is the internet kind of feeling to it. But I mean, but I remember at that time too, I remember at that time going from, oh, I guess I should get

a computer. Well, I had never having felt like I needed oh, I guess I should get a computer. Well, I had never having felt like I needed a computer before because I wasn't going to do, you know, home bookkeeping or make my own Pong game. And then and then the Internet just, you know, it just happens in front of you. And I remember thinking, like, wait a minute. So this thing is just like businesses put basically pamphlets on the computer that you can look at and i thought that's dumb you know like what's the point of that of course you know not having any vision whatsoever about it um but you did so it was it was it did it was it's it's so weird to look back and just like stuff that's such second nature, even to grandmas now. But you had an animated co-host.

Dev. Dev Null. Dev Null, which I guess is some programming thing, you know, and some... Deep inside joke, right? Dev Null, I think, is an empty file. Yeah. is an empty file. Yeah.

So Jeff Null was a very famous guy still around named Leo Laporte, who's a well-known tech guy who'd been reporting on tech and who'd been a columnist and done a lot of contributing. I mean, a very, very super smart guy. Yeah. But I remember when they put him, so they put him in a suit, like so that he could move. Yeah, he looks like a very early animated character from the internet. And David Borman, who was an executive at NBC News,

who was kind of the executive in charge of our show, he and I had a deal because I was like, so if me talking to an animated character ruins my career, I get to bail out. Because I was like, no one did that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was going to say. That's like the person that shoves that on you. That's, oh, it's just, here, put on these clown shoes. He's a great, great guy. And he, so he basically said, yes, if it's horrible, you can bail out. And the other day, somebody did a really scathing review,

30 years too late, of the site that one of my sons said to me, mom, this guy was on the, you know, talking about the site. And he said it was terrible. I mean, the guy was completely accurate in his review. But I was like, it was very forward-looking back then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It looks stupid now, but it was very forward-looking back then. It looks stupid now, but it was very, it was very forward looking back then. Also how heroic, how heroic to kick a 30 year old show.

Oh my God. I know. I think he's just young and like that guy. Uh, at any case, so Leo Laporte, who's super, I mean, brilliant guy was there to answer like all of our questions and, um, and, and had a great sense of humor about it. But Dev Null, the character, was very raunchy. So usually I had to like whip my earpiece out of my ear because there came a point where it would like just spiral into absolutely nothing good at all. But Leo, Leo, really a genius. And then, of course, he would be kind of like answering the mailbag off the top of his head. So we had to start another segment with him called Retraction Monday, which was at the end of the week with all the letters that we had gotten over the weekend telling us how wrong we were on

certain things. Right, right. Leo would come back in and apologize for everything he got wrong. Yeah. So, well, but that transitions from, you know, like a very topic-specific show with some lighthearted sides, transitions into actual anchoring then. Yeah, yeah. And I had taken that job because I really wanted to learn to anchor in San Francisco, and my local news bosses wouldn't allow it. They felt like they had a lot of female anchorsors and they just felt like it was just too much. So, so I went to, I left a local and I went to MSNBC and then I went back to start anchoring when that show got canceled after Princess Diana died. I went back to start anchoring. And then I, and then eventually I got to start filling in on the Today Show and Weekend Today. And then eventually I got in 2000 and in 1999, I got to start anchoring Weekend Today, which

was amazing. I was like, you know, I mean, you know, because you work for NBC. NBC is so like old school. Yeah. You walk in the building. That building, you know. The building. And then even like on the Today Show, it's like dun, dun, dun.

Yeah. You know, or the moment you have to say, but first, this is today on NBC. Like it's a thing. Yeah. It literally fills you with this chills and pride and horror and fear that you're going to mess it up in some way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was really fun to start anchoring there in 99. And I did that for about four years.

I love Weekend Today. I got my degree, which NBC paid for. And I just, I really, really enjoyed it. And then CNN courted me to come over to CNN, which was a great transition because I'd been doing a weekend show, which was great, but not very, you know, two hours on Saturday, one hour on Sunday, not, you know, not really hardcore news yeah yeah uh and then we ended up going to you know five days a week i think our show at cnn was three hours a day four hours i mean you know some insane amount of time but it was like going to college it really was like really really you know just learning about both anchoring and also about kind of everything that was happening in the globe

because cnn was just nowadays they do many more talking heads. That was not as frequent thing. They had what they called friends. So you might have people around the table with you, but you wouldn't have like this debating of, you know, two angry congressmen kind of thing. So really different and really, I loved it. It was very, it was so much work, but it was really, really great. It was the first time I wasn't working weekends in a long time. So, that was great. I got to like hang out with my family on the weekends too. Oh, that's nice. Now you have, you know, you end up having, is it four kids or five kids? I have four. Four. Unless, are you counting my husband or not counting my husband? I meant, I'm editorializing.

I just, I couldn't remember exactly. Sure, sure. Four kids. But, I mean, is that, I mean, obviously you kept having kids. So you were like, you were managing okay. Oh, did you really? Well, I was from a big family and I loved a big family. I loved a big family. I loved a big family, but

our third set was twins, which was a shocker. So that put a, that put, that ended that all. That was weird. But I loved it. I have really, I mean, I don't think four is such a big number. My mom, who had six

kids in seven years, used to say to me all the time, like, oh, yes, that's right. And you have a nanny, right? So you have just a little family, just four kids. So just a little family. And she's full time, right? Does she sometimes sleep over? Oh, okay.

So, you know. Moms know how to dig in. Jab and twist the knife. Yeah, yeah. No, but I think she genuinely felt like, you know, it wasn't that many. And, you know, if you had good help, it wasn't that hard. But, of course, it was always, you know, craziness and chaos. And especially at CNN because I traveled a lot.

I did a lot of international travel when I was there. It was just craziness at times. I used to come home and my kids would say we had a babysitter named Margaret. They'd be like, hey, Margaret, I mean, mommy. Oh. You're like, oh. But Margaret lets me. Yeah, exactly.

Actually, Margaret, I was always really lucky. My sitters were great and they were very strict. So I was always like, but mommy lets me. They're like, yeah, well, mommy's on a plane. So no, the answer is no. But you know, I had some friends who were, I don't know what the right word is. It's not that they were jealous of their sitter, but they were, I think they were jealous of the time the sitter got to spend with their kids. And so you saw people who, like, didn't want their kid to love their sitter, which I thought was kind of sad.

Yeah. Like, I was very grateful, you know, that, like, I want my kid to like as many people as possible. Yeah. Like I was very grateful, you know, that like, I want my kid to like as many people as possible. Absolutely. And it is, it is, you know, and the notion too, that you have to do it all by yourself is a pretty modern notion. Like nobody, nobody in throughout the course of human history is raising a kid just by themselves. There's always, you know, a larger family structure that's helping out. And in place of that, then you always, you know, a larger family structure that's helping out. And in place of that, then you have, you know, like somebody that should, you know, create work for. And I think, I think that I've always felt like parenting is, I remember reading once about

the beginnings of policing, like the, like the beginnings of like police enforcement and the notion of we are going to have a group of people that are police. And from the beginning, one of their main goals was supposed to be that they were working towards their own obsolescence. They weren't just arresting people. They were trying to make it so that no one would have to rob anyone. And, you know, I mean, that's a whole different topic of what, yeah, yeah, where that goes. But I've always felt that's kind of like what being a parent is. You're making yourself obsolete. Like that's what, that's everything you do should be pushing towards making your kids

not need you anymore, which I'm finding as they get older, it's not as easy to keep up your end of the deal. You know, like it's easy when they're 10 and you're going like, no, I want you to go out and spread your wings. And then they get to be in their 20s. You're like, so really, you are just going to leave them. You are you are just going to go out and be your own person? Well, great. Have a good time. Call me when you get there. Make sure you call me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, you know, the other thing I thought that was a really interesting thing to learn about parenting was that there are phases, right? And that you didn't have to love every phase. I was never a big baby. I mean, I love other people's babies. I'm always happy to grab a little baby, carry that baby around. But in terms of like your day to day with your own actual baby, I found that a little boring. I thought, I thought it was like hard and a crying baby that you couldn't figure out was stressful. It's, you know, I had so many friends who'd say like, right, but you know, like, so

baby may not be your, your, your window that you love. You know, you might so many friends who'd say like, right, but you know, like, so baby may not be your window that you love. You know, you might find that when the kid is between, you know, three to six or 13 to 15, you know, so it was a very interesting way of realizing like at this moment, it might be really hard and stressful and not enjoyable. This is the window where you're actually not going to want to be traveling and you're actually not going to want to be gone for four days in a row because, you know, a 13 year old, you know, really actually needs someone to run stuff by in a way that a six month old might not. So it was very interesting to kind of learn. Like, it's not all set in stone. It's not I'm amazingly into this or I'm not at all. Like it changes and it ebbs and it flows kind of. Yeah. And there are different kinds of people who are suited.

There are people who just love being around babies, but you know, and then there's other, like my ex-wife always said, I just want, I just couldn't wait for him to get to where I could talk to him. Right. To where we could have a conversation. And I, I related to that because it is, babies are great and they're fun, but like you said, they said, and I coined a phrase for it, high stakes boredom. Like it's just, it's incredibly boring, but something horrible could happen at any moment.

So you can't really let your guard down. Exactly. So you're always in the sense of stress up to your neck. Yes, yes. But not really doing anything. But yeah, but like just seeing a kid do the same you know are you gonna make that puzzle again all right okay i guess that's how you hope hoping to get a shower in there somewhere yes right right well now you you you anchored for a while and now

you're your own boss yeah i want to talk about like how does that how does that evolution happen? Is it something that you had been wanting to do? Is it something that sort of, you know, circumstance sort of provided you with? A little bit of both. A little bit of both. I was working at CNN and I had, I knew I wanted to do a production company. So I've been talking to my agent at the time about that. And he informed me that it was not doable and that they never made any money. And so I should definitely not do it. But I had a name and actually I had done like create all the paperwork for a production company a couple

of years before I actually left. And then CNN had a new boss came in. Jeff Zucker came in as president and he told me he did not want me to anchor. He thought I should be a fill-in anchor, which, you know, it's interesting. By then I had a pretty big name and a pretty good reputation. And I thought like, well, I don't know why I'd have to do that. It's not like there's something wrong with what I'm doing. I mean, my show is as good as anybody else's show, but I think he wanted to, he liked the boy girl model and I was doing a show by myself. And so, and so I said, he asked me if I would stay on and do fill in, like, you know, kind of fill in the gaps of things, which was an anchor job,

but you know, we're really not. And I think like a substitute teacher. Exactly. And if you have four kids, you just don't then have a schedule at all. Plus I was really, I was doing, we were doing a lot of documentaries. And I remember saying to my husband, like, I actually think I have a big enough name to start something. I ask people, I take people out to lunch and I'd be like, okay, so honestly, do you think I can leave? Because as you know, if you leave a well-known platform, I think you always run the risk that it's like, yep, well, it's the platform, not you, that's doing well. Bye. And you never hear from the person again. And so I really wanted someone to say, like, let's be, and you and I have been in the business enough to know to be able to list, you know, many, many people for whom, you know, kind of went off and then just never showed up again.

And so, but enough people said to me, like, yeah, I think you can make a production company work, which is what I really wanted. I didn't just want like a vanity company. You know, I wanted to a real to take projects that I liked and execute on them. But I didn't have a lot of experience or knowledge. So we did it. And CNN was actually my first client, interestingly. And so which helped a lot because, you know, I made so many mistakes. Like I said, yes.

And of course i started the clock ticking on the docs that i was doing for cnn but i should have said yes all the start dates in six months so that i could get an office and i mean everything was on my dining room table it was really kind of a a bit messy um but you know but you kind of learn on the fly it was very much building a the plane wing while you were in the air. Yeah. I hadn't taken any accounting classes. I didn't really know how to do real budgets. And even when people would talk about projections, I'm like, I haven't had I don't know how to how do I know what I will be making in 10 years? Like, yeah, that's that's I mean, I can make something up, but I have literally no idea how anybody even thinks of that in a way that's rational. So it was chaotic. And

I think for the first year and a half to, you know, like you're a CEO, but what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything. You just, you have no idea what it means. And then after about that, I began to understand like what my job was and what my vision really was and what I, you know, what I said yes to and what I said no to, you know, just took all, I thought a long time. I remember being exhausted by, um, just like some days I'd be like, I just don't want to learn anything today. I just want to go in and have a day where I don't like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, exactly. So, um, and after about a year and a half, um, that started to happen where it was like, uh, and after about a year and a half, um, that started to happen

where it was like, uh, someone would bring me in and we had done enough things well and enough things badly that I'd be like, Oh, I know how to answer this question now. I know how to, I know how to create this budget now. I know how to do this now. And, um, and so it got, it got kind of fun because I could then start executing on all the things that I actually wanted to do. Is there a certain amount of, because you said it so nicely about Jeff Zucker wanting something different than what you wanted. Was there a bit of like, all right, fine. You want to minimize me? I'll go off and do my own thing and I'll make a success of myself.

You're making a face like, no, you're less petty than me, I guess. No, I'm super, super petty. But I don't know. There's our pull quote. Yeah, let me tell you. And that will surprise nobody. Because I wasn't sure I could do it. I think I'm super petty and super confident.

You know, well, I'm going to walk out here and you just watch me kill it. If I felt that way, I wasn't sure. And I wasn't even sure what kill it meant in a production company. And I wasn't sure that the thing that I had going for me was I had made a lot of money at CNN. So I had a lot of money saved. And that meant I could literally go out and rent, you know, office space. You know, like there was never a moment where I felt like, oh God, if this doesn't work, I'm not going to be able to feed my family next month. Or,

oh my gosh, if this doesn't work, you know, I just don't know what I'll do. People are still throwing jobs at me and people, you know, would you want to do the two to four at MSNBC? Do you want to do the, you know, and I was like, no, I really want to try this other thing. So I didn't feel super confident about it. I just knew I had a couple of other experiences early on in my career where I just knew if your boss doesn't see what you see in yourself, it's just never a good thing. Like you can't stay there. You don't have to necessarily leave right away. When I was in San Francisco reporting, I remember I had a boss who didn't want to, you know, he said he had enough female anchors. And I remember thinking like, oh, well, if I have this vision of what I think I

could do, and I might be terrible at it, but like, I just don't think you should stay in a place where people are like, yeah, you're okay. And you're welcome to sit in that desk over there and don't, you know, don't make too much noise. And, you know, but the things that you want to do, we're just, we don't believe in them and we don't see you doing it and we don't really support it. I, I think it's super disheartening to work in that kind of environment. And also, you know, I I've got a lot of years left. I think that's no reason to kind of kill your growth. And I know some people do it, but I didn't think I was there yet that I had to, right? Like the only decision I can make is to just suck it up and take what

I'm being offered. I was like, no, I actually think I can just go and try this other thing. And I'm glad I did because it certainly wasn't perfect and it really wasn't easy. I mean, there's so much I didn't know. I think if I had really known what it would take, I would never would have done it because it would have been too overwhelming, but I was kind of stupid going in. So I'm by the, you know, you figure it out in little pieces and then you're like, oh, whoa, yeah, this is a mess. But, you know, over time you begin to kind of understand the business of the business, which was not what I knew. I knew the anchoring part of the business or the execution part of the business. And I really, you know, the best part about it one day, I was negotiating a deal and I was like,

I'm actually fucking good at negotiating. Like I, cause I understand it from all ends. Like I'm actually, I'm actually good at this. And that's something that I had never done. And that I, I wouldn't have told you I was good at. And listen, I have a very, you know, I have a nice, nice positive sense of self, but I was like, damn, like I, how long had it been since you had a skill and you could get a completely new skill that, you know, that, that you had to go do. So I went from feeling like, I can't remember where the bathroom is in this new place, to like, oh, no, I'll handle that. I know exactly what we need to do to get this done. And that arc of growth was something I hadn't experienced in a long time because I had been kind of doing my job at a high level for a pretty long time. Yeah. That was pretty exciting. You have sort of gained a reputation as a critic of cable news, especially.

News generally. News generally. And I think that that started with social media, with your social media presence. You are yourself. And you give sort of, you know, unvarnished opinions about things on social media, which is a rarity among people who are supposedly impassive, impartial journalists. And I want to just kind of get you to explain like why you do that. Because I'm grateful that you do it. And why you think more people why you do that. And, and cause I'm grateful that you do it and why you think more people don't do it.

I actually think more, I'll start with the second part first, more people don't do it because as a guy said to me once, he said, I agree with what you're writing about meet the press, but I love being invited on that show. Yeah. Just it's such a, and I was like, I'm okay not to.

One of the nice things about, I think, being a woman who's 55, almost 56, right, is like, you just feel like done it. I'm totally good. I do not need more friends. I do not need to be invited on Meet the Press to feel like, ooh, I've made it or I'm making it. And so I think it's really more of that, that people feel like, I don't want to say this because I want a guest spot on that. I don't want to say this because that person might be mad and then I won't be on Morning Joe. I don't want to say this because then the New York Times won't run my op-ed if I decide or won't review my book positively. All I think are very likely accurate things if you're not positive. I try to critique mostly journalism because I feel like that's my area of expertise.

So, for example, when Ben Smith, formerly of the New York Times, who's starting his new company, did an interview with Tucker Carlson, you know, like doing live interviews is hard. Doing live interviews where you have to point, pin somebody down is very hard. Doing live interviews where you have to point, pin somebody down is very hard. Doing live interviews where you have to pin somebody down, and that person is a white supremacist who's also very good on TV, right? It's not their first rodeo. Oh my God, the bright lights, I'm so confused, right? You knew that was going to be a disaster because, you know, Ben's a print guy. Like it actually is a skill. Anderson Cooper does it very well, right? Where he understands how you navigate through a difficult interview. Mehdi Hassan at MSNBC also, like he's

just tough. You have to have a data point, right? You have to have, you can't ask these wide ranging questions. You have to like, I'm going to ask you this specific thing. We're going to roll the tape to say you did it. I'm going to push back in this area. I know exactly what your point is going to be. It's so much prep. It's so much work. And so I knew it would be a mess and it was a mess. And of course, Tucker ran over him and it was all done, of course, for PR reasons, because he's got a new company that he's promoting. But, you know, and a lot of people, I got so many messages, people like, you don't know what this company is going to be. You might want to be part of it. I'm like, literally not going to happen. It's okay. So I think that's the reason why people don't, they just want to, I'm really happy in what I'm doing. I like what I do. Are companies

successful? I get to pick the projects I want. I work with people I want. If it doesn't work out, I say, we probably shouldn't work together again, but it's been very, it's not very dramatic. together again, but it's been very, it's not very dramatic. But I do, I try to do a lot of like, let's explain why someone's framing a story this way. You know, let's talk about the framing. Why would the New York Times frame it as this? Whose side are we getting? As this reporter tells you this, you can tell who their sources are, maybe not specifically, but I certainly can tell you what group they belong to. How are they framing this story? Who gets good treatment? I think to be somebody who's been in those positions at a high level, to be able to bring that kind of insight is a nice thing. And again, I'm not

trying to get in the op-ed pages of the New York Times, and I don't want to be booked on anybody's show. I'm good. If somebody wants me, I'm happy to say yes. If not, also does not matter. So I think it adds some value. And it's very different than the actual work that I do, which is anchoring a show about public policy or, you know, reporting for real sports. Yeah. Well, what's next?

What do you want the future to be? I mean, you know, you're going to have an empty house sooner or later. Sure, yeah. And, you know, and your company's up and going. I mean, is there anything, is there any hill you haven't climbed that's there in front of you? Yeah, you know, we have been really interested in our production company in just expanding what we cover, which has been great. I mean, I think it's been very exciting to be able to do. We have a project right now that's about to come out on Peacock, which is the rebellious life of Mrs. Rosa Parks, the first full-length documentary

done on Rosa Parks, which is kind of crazy. Got great reviews. There's never been a full-length documentary? Wow, that's crazy. Isn't that bizarre? Yeah, yeah. It's a great doc. We just premiered at Tribeca, and we are streaming right now on HBO a project called Black and Missing, which is a look at all the black and missing women and why the media and law enforcement doesn't pay a lot of attention to them.

So we have a lot of projects that are out there that have done well, certainly, you know, awards wise, but also just in terms of what makes us proud and continuing to do that. But I always am looking for, you know, more stories and more, you know, I haven't directed anything I'd like to do more directing. Cause I think that would be really fun. I think I need everybody out of my house first because to direct, you kind of have to be very singularly focused and it's this moment, very hard to do that. I do much more

producing or sometimes hosting of podcasts. So we got a lot of, we got a lot of projects that are underway and it's great. It's been a really nice, you know, like, I feel like I'm at that part of the Boston marathon where you're like, oh, I'm in my pace. I got it. You know, not the beginning where you're like, what the hell am I doing? And not the end where you're like, oh, I'm in my pace. I got it. You know, not the beginning where you're like, what the hell am I doing? And not the end where you're like, I'm going to die. I just need to get over this. But like that comfortable part in the middle where, you know, you're like, oh, okay. If I just keep this pace and keep my arms moving, you know, we're going to be able to do it.

So that's where I feel like I am. That's great. Well, what have you learned? That's the bit, you know, like what do you think, whether it's advice to impart or whether you know some sort of when when you look back on your life and on your career and you think like, you know, what the point of it all is? I was meeting with the Hearst interns the other day, Hearst and I co-produce matter of fact. And I was telling them a story about when my first job in WBZ TV in Boston. And I used to, when I finally got promoted from being a production assistant to an associate

producer, I would be in the control room and then the Today Show would start. We do local and then the Today Show would start. So I'd come into the, I'd leave the control room and then I'd come into the meeting, 7 a.m. meeting. But I was always late because, of course, the today show would start and then you put your stuff away and then you run to the bathroom and then you come in. And there was a guy in there. His name was John. And he used to every single day make some crack about like, oh, what are we running on color people's time?

Oh, what are we? Oh, boy. Asshole. Right, just an asshole. Right, just an asshole. And I would tell, I was telling this group of young students, college students mostly, about how like I would literally go home and just plot. Like if he says this, I'm going to say that. If he does this, you know, or I'd complain or this. I just had so much like angst about this guy who just was writing me every single day about

this stuff. He was awful. And then one day I took a job at NBC News and I left. And I've never seen him again, which is unusual in our business. Like never again. I have not ever seen him again, ever. No idea where he went. And my point to these students was like microaggressions, people being a jerk, slights, all this stuff, you're just gonna have it.

But I wish I hadn't spent so much psychic energy like on this guy who I never saw again. Never saw him again, literally. And so, you know, my message for them is like, what I've learned is, you know, focus on your own path, figure out what you're doing, be happy with what you're doing, fix what you don't like about what you're doing, but just constantly, you know, reassess, hey,

this person thinks this, I disagree, keep jogging, going down that path that you think you can get to and don't get dragged off into other people's slights or slurs or, you know, microaggressions or whatever you want to call it, you know, just to like stay the path and figure out like what you want to do, what are those things you're good at and what kinds of things whatever you want to call it, just to stay the path and figure out what you want to do. What are those things you're good at? And what kinds of things do you want to do? And if you can do that, I think you can go very far. Yeah. Well, and that works in all walks of life too.

Whether it's relationships with your family, I mean, that sort of feeling works well too. You can't, the only, you know, one of, one of the lessons of being a grownup is you can't, you can't change anyone else's behavior, but your own. And, and so that's where you can, you know, you can focus your, on, on your reaction to things, but you can't, not too much, you know, not too much. Because, you know, like you say, there was an AD that I used to work, when I was a film production assistant in Chicago that I used to work for that I, he was such a dick that I was like, I'm going to remember him. And if I ever have a chance to make his life. And then I, you know, again, like you said, I never saw him again, you know, like there's never any chance. And I,

and looking back, I'm like kind of embarrassed. Like, like, why would I be that petty and shitty about it? But it's like, well, cause I was young and I was angry. And he, right. And who cares? And how much better to just focus on your thing? No, it's really true. One of my biggest strengths is being flexible. Like, you know, it's good in a reporter to land and think you're doing this story. And it's like, oh, shit, that's not the story. Okay, turn. No, over here.

Oh, that, you know, turn. And so I think, like, that's really important, too. Just, like, don't get sidelined by the people who are just trying to grab your attention. Just, like, focus. This doesn't work. Turn. Change. This doesn't work. Change, you know, and just keep going and going and now, you know, you're everybody's path is, you know, I'm sure yours has been is like this, right? We just kind of zig and zag as you go and not to get stuck.

I do worry about those people who drag your attention because all of a sudden you find yourself over here for no reason, you know, like. You know, spending your nights coming up with, you know, sassy comebacks to someone you'll never see again. It's like a waste of your time. It really is. Well, I hope this wasn't a waste of your time because it was a great conversation. And I really appreciate you being here and talking to us. Pleasure was mine.

Thank you for having me. And thank all of you out there for listening to this episode of The Three Questions. And I will be back next week with more. I've got a big, big love for you. The Three Questions with Andy Richter is a Team Coco and Your Wolf production. It is produced by Lane Gerbig, engineered by Marina Pice, and talent produced by Kalitza Hayek. The associate producer is Jen Samples, supervising producer Aaron Blair, Thank you.