The Three Questions with Andy Richter - Susanna Hoffs of The Bangles

Episode Date: June 6, 2023

Singer, songwriter, and author Susanna Hoffs joins Andy Richter to discuss her work in the legendary pop rock band The Bangles, the recent release of her debut novel, growing up in 1960’s Hollywood, and much more.

Hi, everybody. It's Andy Richter. Once again, I'm coming to you with the podcast, The Three Questions. As I like to say, one of the internet's top 7,000 podcasts. I'm speaking today with somebody who has been giving us all a lot of joy for a while now. I mean, I don't want to say many years, because then it makes you sound old. I'm very sensitive to that now as I get on in years myself and people are like, I've watched you since I was a tiny child. It's like, yes, and now you're probably giving me jobs. I'm talking to Susanna Hoffs. How are you? I'm good. I'm really doing well. And I'm just listening to you speak about not wanting to talk about age and getting older and such. Weirdly, I'm obsessed with just blurting out that I'm 64. Well, you're an amazing looking 64.

Thank you. That's always helpful. You know, I think it's good living. It's good living. It's good living. And I think it's, I feel lucky that I've been able to do work that brings me happiness and joy. And I think there's, that plays a part in it, you know, that I get to be an artist of different, in different ways. Is there, do you have good genetics too for the aging?

I think so. I do think, I mean, my parents are pretty, pretty fantastic. My dad is 90 now and my mom is 88 and they're, and they're doing quite well. So yeah, I think that helps. And your mom is a film producer, film director. So you had a very good model growing up of a woman that has a family, but also is an artist. That's exactly right a working artist and then my dad's a psychoanalyst and so usually usually psychoanalyst kids are nuts i know well i am nuts but it's a good kind of nuts and i feel like he his whole spiel with us kids my two brothers and me was like everyone's crazy yeah everyone's crazy yeah and me, was like, everyone's crazy. Yeah, yeah. Everyone's crazy. Yeah.

So I was like, oh, permission. I mean, I'm sure that affected why I was like, ooh, I'm going to be crazy after I graduated college. I'm going to start a rock band. Yeah, yeah. And then I, because that's kind of my, I've always, yeah, I think it was a great childhood. I really do. Growing up in the 1960s, the Beatles in 1964 were on my block

in West LA for a party before they played the, what was it? The Hollywood Bowl. The Hollywood Bowl? Really? Yeah, yeah. And did the whole neighborhood know that they were there? The whole neighborhood. My older brother, who's a year older than me, John, he tracked down footage from newsreel footage of the day the Beatles came to our neighborhood. And you can see all of us kids. I mean, I can't pinpoint myself in the crowd, but we all sort of gathered around outside the house, literally down the street. It had our street name on the newsreel footage. And yeah, so that was a life-changing day for me. I mean,

my mom always had the radio tuned to the AM pop music station. And so I heard the Beatles, and I fell in love with music right away as a child. It never ended, that love. I don't know, for me, music is the beginning, middle, and end of every day. It just seems to be the best possible drug in the world. It's safe. There's a song for every mood, every ailment. Well, first of all, I wanted, before we move on from the Beatles, whose house were they at? wanted, before we move on from the Beatles, whose house were they at? So they were at a, they were doing a charity event. They were, they were making just a little walkthrough of a charity event. I don't know the owners of the house, but they were on Hanover Street and I grew up on a street

called Avondale. So we were just steps away from where this party was. I can't, I can't remember who the people throwing the event were, but they just sort of were invited. Wow. And it was right when they were in town to do the Hollywood Bowl shows, those iconic shows. Yeah, where no one could hear a thing. I know, because they were screaming.

The girls were screaming. Yeah. And it was quite a phenomenon when you did that. Did you see them? I mean, did anyone see them getting in and out of the house? I didn't. But, you know, it was just breathing the air that they might have breathed. You know, it was that heady of a moment. Yeah.

I mean, it was really remarkable, the whole British Invasion Beatles phenomenon in L.A. They were just plastered all over the radio station. You know, like their songs, it changed everything. Yeah. For me and my brothers, I mean, it definitely cemented this idea that would, you know, flourish years and years later of music and the power of music to kind of hypnotize me, me as a person and wake up like every nerve ending. Like I just felt like even when I was even before the Beatles, my mom always said that music would cast a magical spell over me, like I would just light up. And then I would

sing along to records. I think a lot of us musicians, I'm self-taught, like it's embarrassing. I can't read a musical chart, but I learned kind of folk style and I learned by mimicking albums. Like when the Joni Mitchell albums came out in the seventies and late sixties, I would just, like so many young singers, I would just learn the roadmap of those melodies. Right. And I would try to imitate it. Just over and over and over. Oh, yeah.

Just moving the needle back. Yeah. Yep. Moving the needle back and doing it again. And so those were cool days. Yeah. Was it pretty well known? I mean, you didn't ever have to overcome that hump of parents that were saying,

you can't do that for a living because they did, you know, your mom did and your dad, you know. He's a shrink. Yeah, he's a shrink. And so, but he, you know, he married someone that he knew was, you know, and especially, you know, when your mom started, that was unusual. I mean, also my childhood in L.A. Because like when my mom used to pick us up at preschool, all the other families were like in showbiz. So that's how we met Leonard Nimoy and his wife Sandy.

And their kids was at the preschool. Also, my best friend growing up was Liz Gazzara, whose dad was Ben Gazzara, who was part of Cassavetes, Peter Falk, Ben Gazzara, whose dad was Ben Gazzara, who was part of Cassavetes, Peter Falk, Ben Gazzara. They were like a trio of cool actors. And if you look back on movies like the early Cassavetes movies and Jenna Rollins, those... So I spent a lot of time around... Because my friends' parents were actors and people in showbiz.

So it was a very iconically 60s vibe. I mean, we used to, at the Gazzara house, those guys were always over playing pool. And it was like a scene out of Mad Men or something. Liz and I would be told to go make them martinis. We didn't sneak sips or anything, but we were like, do you want an olive in yours? Do you want an onion in yours you know we would be bringing the drinks they'd be shooting pool it was so cool yeah i don't know it's like the swinging 60s was a cool time i still i can watch a movie from that era and i get like overcome with a thrill yeah yeah the way it looked and felt i don't know yeah you probably took all this for granted though you didn't at the time it probably didn't it don't know yeah you probably took all this for granted though you

didn't at the time it probably didn't it wasn't cool that you knew all these people they were just dads and moms right exactly yeah yeah i mean what was cool was that like at the gazzara house that they had a pool with a spiral slide yeah and they had their mom the janice rule ben gazzara's wife who had been in the the matt helm movies like like The Silencers, I think was the name of one. And she had, like, her closet was amazing. She had, like, rows of, like, multicolored suede boots and, like, 60s clothes. It was just, it was crazy. Yeah, yeah.

But it was very festive. And, you know, we used to hang out. The Nimoy's family had, Leonard and Sandy, had a classic Hanukkah party every year. So I'd be standing there and it would be like eavesdropping, young me eavesdropping on like Vincent Price and somebody else was there that was so cool. Well, Leonard, actually. And he had his Spock ears framed on the wall too. I love the Spock ears. Wow. No, I mean, it just, it sounds amazing. And, you know, and like I say, was there a point at which you realized that how kind of cool this was and that you were,

you know, you were getting to kind of eavesdrop on something special? to kind of eavesdrop on something special? I don't know. I think that it wasn't until maybe that I went to college that I started to reflect, because it was just the life that we were living. I mean, I love the fact that my parents had, my parents' friends were definitely different than some of the kids that I knew in school,

in elementary school and middle school. I mean, my parents, my household, you know when there's a house in the neighborhood where all the kids want to hang out because the rules are just a little bit looser? I grew up in one of those houses. Right? So me too. So my house was the house where a lot of the kids from middle school liked to hang because my parents were permissive and cool. And if somebody used a swear word, nobody would blink an eye. It was okay. And yeah, so I feel grateful that I had that kind of childhood. But I think something to do with the 60s, there was something in the air, let's face it. It was a real golden era, if you ask me.

Yeah. For the arts. For the arts. Yes. For sure. Yeah. Were you pretty much set on a creative pursuit from an early age? You pretty much just knew you were going to do something. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And it really was sort of tinkering around with all the different things. I did a lot of theater, but I was always so little that I had to play the child parts. I was whoa, that was like eye-opening. And it wasn't like the days where your parents would come in the station wagon and help you with your stuff. I just took a flight and I was dragging a big duffel bag down Telegraph Avenue. And I remember vividly these two nice young guys said, can we help you with that? And I thought, I kind of like almost looked over my shoulder and I thought it was like, you mean me? Like I wasn't used to, I was very shy in high school. I didn't date, really date or anything. And, and I just thought, oh, I, permission to reinvent myself. Like these two nice dudes are offering to help me like lug this giant duffel bag into my dorm. And I just thought, oh yeah, permission to do, this is a new chapter. Yeah.

So the Berkeley years were really fun. I got fully immersed in music and I was making music with David Roback, who was a childhood friend and went on to do the band Mazzy Star, which you may or may not have heard of yet. Yeah, no, they're of my time. Yeah. Yeah. And also I was doing, I was in the dance department, the theater department. I ended up leaving that department and being in the art department, which kind of, I always, when people say like, what do you do? I always kind of say like art. I don't know what else to say. I am a musician. Now I've written a novel.

But, yeah, I just love art. And this was, like, you went to school in, like, 75, I'm guessing? No, 76. Oh, 76. So, yeah, I was 17 in 76 and then turned 18 in 77. But, you know, I went to see the Sex Pistols last show. Wow. I saw Patti Smith group at Winterland Ballroom.

There were so many clubs. The Mabouhe Garden, which was called the Fab Mab, that had a lot of punk, new wave. It was a very vibrant time. There were so many great record stores. Yeah, I mean. Was the punk movement kind of formative for you? Yes.

In terms of where it stepped up a notch? Because like you said, you were a dabbler. Yeah. But then, you know, was punk what made you say, I want to be in a band i want to kick ass punk punk made it feel like this is from the streets these are kids who didn't wait for permission yeah they are not waiting for a record company to go or they're not on like a show like american idol like let's all compete with each. Who has the best voice or the best charisma or whatever?

It was like people, it was scrappy, it was DIY, it was everything that really spoke to me personally because even those experiences of having to play like the child characters in the school play, like I knew somewhere deep inside that if I was going to be able to do what I really wanted to do what I really wanted to do, I, I really couldn't wait for permission. I really had to just go try to prove myself. I had to do the hard work of trying to write songs or, you know, create the things,

right. Create the, the, you know, the, the stuff. But, but I knew that waiting for permission just wasn't, it wasn't going to be the way to make art. It just wasn't. So the Berklee years were really informative for me and formative years, I would say. And as everyone was leaving college and going to the jobs office, you know, I didn't even bother because what was I going to say? Like, help me start a band, jobs office. Like, it wasn't going to work. So I just came back to LA. I moved into the garage of my parents' house because you don't need to park your cars there in LA.

The weather is fine. Yeah. And I just started trying to figure out how to start a band. Wow. And then a few months later, by the beginning of, so that was 1980. So by January 1981, I had somehow connected with the Peterson sisters, Vicki and Debbie, Vicki on guitar, Debbie on drums, through some throwaway ads in the Recycler magazine.

I don't think it exists anymore. It was like the Craigslist of its time. Yeah. And you just like, you used car, a bandmate, a guitar. Like I was, that's how I did it. I just was, there was an interview with Metallica and that's how they started out of the Recycler. You're kidding.

I never knew that. That's so cool. I think Lars Ulrich, the drummer, placed an ad and then he and James, he hooked up with James Hetfield and that was the beginning of it. That was the core. That's so cool. Yeah. Can't you tell my love's a-growing? Did you, when you're starting out, you come back and you're just kind of like,

you didn't have any, you're just like, I'm going to start a band, period. I mean, I was really determined. You know, it's the same with writing a novel. Like, Jay would come in and go, you're still sitting in that chair? You've been there for six hours. And I'm like, I love this. Yeah. I don't know what it is I like. Once I get the idea in my head, there's just this, you know, it's not always easy,

but I'm very determined. I guess I'm a determined person and I get really caught up in it. And I love that flow state. It happens when you're playing music on stage. It's almost like a singular focus. It's so hard in this multitasking world with our phones, with media, with 24-hour news cycle to get a singular focus happening that's actually creative in your mind. And I just crave being in that flow. I don't know about you, when you're writing or creating anything, or even I would imagine in improv. I think that's probably why comedians love doing it. Or even if you're on a stage doing comedy, I would guess too. You're kind of surfing maybe the laughs, you kind of hear them, but you're also, especially if people who do any kind of form of improvisational creation of anything, I would think jazz musicians, it must,

it's just the best place to be. That's how it felt writing the book. I was just like permission to live in this fantasy world. And it just would, it would spring to life in my mind, almost as if I was watching a movie version. And I just had to court report the expressions and the characters. It's almost like a form of madness. They would just start talking and I would write down what they said. Yeah.

So that was so pleasurable. Yeah. It's like a dream that you get to engineer. Yeah. Because in improv, when I was doing it a lot, there definitely were times when I would say stuff that were, you know, and within the realm of the thing, you know, you can say something that like works and is great or something that's like,

eh, not so helpful. But I would say things that worked and were great and were funny. And I didn't even, I didn't think about them. They just popped out. And that is, it is a pretty amazing thing. I think in acting, I feel that too sometimes where you just try to do different stuff. And cause I mainly like film acting and then, and then you get, you know like it you get a take where you're like oh gosh that I wasn't trying to do that but that yeah it came out pretty good you know

no I know it's so it's so fun to be in that mode where you're not self-editing really you're just be you're just being and doing yeah just taking the lid off the jar and letting stuff come out. That's great. That's true. It's true. So that's why. And, you know, honestly, writing a novel, for me, I felt more that flow state and, like, not self-editing.

When you write lyrics, it's because it's more like a rubrics cube or something. You have to think about meter and rhyme. You know, it's not like a spoken, like poem or something. You have to kind of craft it. So it's a little bit more boxed in. You know, I actually find it more difficult to be totally frank. To write lyrics as opposed to prose. Yeah. Yeah. And even though it was several years to write a book, the fact that I wasn't confined often,

often I would find that my prose would have inner rhymes and inner rhythms to them because I've been writing songs for so many years. But that was sort of fun when that would happen. They would just take on a rhythm. Yeah, would take on a rhythm inadvertently. But yeah, I mean, I can imagine you doing improv or stand-up. You get into that flow state.

It's cool. I didn't realize that I was writing a romantic comedy. Now, I didn't know. I didn't have any idea it was a comedy. Yeah. But I knew it was romantic, but I didn't know that it was funny. Yeah. I didn't know it was funny until people were laughing when they were reading it.

And I thought, oh, okay. Yeah. I think my character, I really love my character. She's cool. My character, I really love my character. She's cool. And she has a way of coping by, you know, being self-deprecating or whatever. She just has a way of processing her way out of things that was inadvertently, I guess, funny to some people.

But now I'm glad about that. Was there a moment where you're like, hey, wait a minute. This isn't, you know, why are you laughing, you know? No, I never, i always liked it because if it may if i if i laughed too with other things that the characters would just tell me what they were saying like i didn't sit around and the the voices of people i guess i've just been observing observe i can't speak observing people people my whole life. And I love people. I love people with all their dysfunction. It was really fun to, again, going back to the shrink for a dad thing. It was so acceptable to acknowledge that people are flawed, that they're selfish,

that they're perverse, that they're this, that they're that, dysfunctional, all these things. But it makes such a nice, messy clay to work with. And I enjoyed that about the writing because it's hard to actually express that in a song. For some reason, in fiction and literature was i just found it to be unexpectedly easier yeah yeah yeah interesting well getting back to the forming of a band yeah um was it important like did you just want to what was the what did you want to get out of forming a band what did you have a goal in mind did you want to like where you're like i'm going to play stadiums or were you just kind of like i just want to play you know well that's such

a good question because it's making me reflect on that night that very night when i met vicky and debbie yeah apparently i was wearing um a shangri-la's t-shirt with the, yeah. And they, they were, they liked that. And they kind of were like testing me out. And they wanted to know, like the very question you just asked me, like, what was this? Was this like a hobby thing to just, you know, play weddings and bar mitzvahs? What were my goals? And they kind of said, I don't remember if I said the topper most of the popper most, which is what the Beatles used to say, or what somebody claimed they said. But I actually wanted to try for the topper most of the popper most.

I mean, I don't know why I would have thought that. It wasn't like I had a lot of bravado about myself, but it was more like, why not shoot for the stars? In other words, I wasn't, again, this wasn't like a hobby. I guess I wanted to make clear that forming a band and making beautiful music with your partners in the band wasn't going to be a hobby. It wasn't going to be like a Saturday every other week, let's hang out and jam. It wasn't like that. It was like I wanted something to happen with the band. And crazily, it did ultimately we had hit songs on the radio and toured the world and you know performed in australia and japan and europe you know how soon after you met those guys

did you have an album out um okay so we met in 81 we put out the ep oh miles copeland put out the EP. Oh, Miles Copeland put out, yeah, we put out an EP in 82. Or maybe it was a single. So pretty quick, you're getting music out there. Yeah, no, actually, we went to a studio in Venice, California called Radio Tokyo, and we did a single, Getting Out of Hand. Sorry, it's been like decades. We went to, it was a $10 an hour studio. That's where I'd recorded the stuff with David Roback too. That was really some cool stuff that I love

that I mentioned before. But we recorded this thing. Then it was our job to get it into the hands of iconic LA DJ, Rodney Bingenheimer. Oh, wow. Who had these K-rock shows that were all the rage. Yeah, legendary. And he was a fixture on, for people that don't know, he was a legendary fixture on the Sunset

Strip. The mayor of the Sunset Strip. There was even a documentary about dear Rodney, who was so instrumental in the Bengals journey. So I somehow tracked down his phone number and called him. I was very tenacious. And he said, why don't you come to the Odyssey, which was a club that he would spin discs at. And I think he even like, you know, was hoping that I would wear a miniskirt, which I did. Sure. And I drove across town from the west side to the east side. And I gave him the little handmade

cover that we made that David Roback actually took the photographs of us, just folded, printed at a Xerox place in a little sleeve. I handed him the record. And then it was crickets for one week. One week it was crickets. And then he started to play it. And he played it every week for about a year. On the radio or in the club? On the radio. Oh, wow.

No, on the radio. On the radio. The first weekend he didn't play it and we were bereft and like, oh. And then it meant everything to Rodney Bingenheimer to play your music. That's so old-fashioned, too. I know. It was like something from a movie. Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, so it really got going when Rodney started to play us. And then other stations that were kind of like KROQ that were kind of not you know the big AM stations but more I don't know what you would call it secondary radio stations and then it just sort of took off and then from there we got a tour opening for the English Beat. Wow. Who are called the beat in England, but in America, the English beat. And that was incredible. They were all so fun to hang out with. We had such a blast on the road. The Bangles opened for other bands, even as things were really heating up for us. We opened for Mr. Mister right when Walk Like an Egyptian was about to become the biggest song of that time.

I hate saying stuff about stats and things. No, but it was a gigantic hit. It was impossible to get away from that song. And it was a summer, too, if I remember. And so it was a very summer song. But what was cool about it was just thrown out there on a lark because it was first Manic Monday, which did very well. And then If She Knew What She Wants, which was a more,

I guess they called it AOR radio. And then on a whim, we threw, like to see if it would stick, we literally threw out Walk Like an Egyptian, the quirky song. And the kids, it was the kids that called their radio station insisting that the song get played. And so when the charts freeze over the holidays, it just stayed up there for four weeks at number one or something like that. And it became like this big song of 1986 or seven. I don't remember. I think 87.

Were the Go-Go's kind of like, because in my, in my mind being from Illinois, you know, and that when you're, you're talking about high school for me, you know, like this is high school into college. And to me, it was the Go-Go's and the Bangles, kind of like these two twin towers of L.A. women rock, you know. And was there, were you in reaction to them a lot? Because they were a little bit before you guys, right? Oh, they were definitely a little bit before. I love them i i to me they were aspirational yeah you know i mean our sound was a little bit different we were a little more pays paisley 60s they were very 60s but they just

had a different like a different vibe we were a little more um grungy or a little more psychedelic or a little more they were pretty punk to start out i mean that's where they came from yeah totally totally and i'm friends with all of them and i just adore them and so they sort of they were very aspirational to me and i um yeah so that we've been close with them all these many years. Yeah, they were really- Were they supportive at the time? Oh, yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah.

I mean, I sang on, when Belinda started to do solo stuff, I sang on her records. We collaborated. I've always maintained, and I've written with Charlotte and Jane. Yeah, I mean, I know all of them. They're fantastic. Yeah. And Kathy, Gina, all of them. Yeah. I mean, I know all of them. They're fantastic. And Kathy, Gina, all of them. Yeah. You know, looks play such a big thing, such a big part in popular music. Going into,

you know, when you're starting out, you want to start a band. Like, are you aware of the fact that your looks are going to be, there are people that are going to, you know, be responsible for whether you get out there that are going to also want to have a say in how you look. I mean, was that in your mind and was it a problem or, you know? It's such a good question, Andy. It's so complicated. And I think I sublimated a lot of my feelings about it. Interestingly, the Bangles never had any help much with clothes or anything. We were really a thrift store shopping band. Wow.

Yeah. Nobody said, hey, we got to dress these girls up, you know, as they chomp on a cigar. No, they didn't do that. And we kept hoping someone would roll in a rack of something nice for us to wear. Because on tour, we'd be like, where's the, you know, we'd shop in the malls. Just like everybody else. And it was always hard to, finally, like maybe around 87, we started to have, as the tours got a little bit more cushy. And I mean, just having a bus versus being in a van.

Sure. That's a big difference. Yeah, yeah. I know. So we started to have people to help us a little bit, but we never had, like the fashion industry never really said, oh, we want to get you some cool stuff. Now, we always had to kind of scrape together bits and pieces here and there. We never, we were quite hodgepodge. But I know what you mean about, I think what you were getting at maybe was that feeling of being judged maybe by, by, are they sexy enough? Are they this enough?

Are they that enough? Are they, you know, I don't know. I definitely felt an awareness that when you're at a record company that, you know, people are looking at you and kind of deciding things and you're sort of standing there going, am I making the grade? Like, do I pass the audition? Like, am I good enough? And here's another thing about being in my 60s now. I want to tell kids in their 20s, don't be so hard on yourself.

Don't feel like the 20s are wasted on people in their 20s. Because I think back on how insecure I felt in my 20s when I could have been living it up and enjoying all the success in a different kind of way. I think it's a really interesting and important question you asked because I just want to tell kids now, this is such a special time. Don't be hard on yourself. Don't judge yourself. Don't compare yourself to everybody else and think less of yourself. I mean, it's hard for people, all people, but I think being in the public eye and knowing that a lot of people were kind of, hmm, checking us out, wondering, judging, it got under my skin, definitely. Yeah.

It definitely was something to grapple with. You know, I mean, I have my own insecurities about my looks. And to what you were saying, the thing that kills me now as an older person, I've spent my whole life thinking like, oh God, I don't look good. Or I could, you know, I could lose weight or I could do this. Or, you know, I wish I, you know, I wish I didn't look like such a, you know, eight year old, you know, my entire life. And then I see myself, I see pictures of myself 20 years ago, 30 years ago, whatever. And I look and I think, ago 30 years ago whatever and I look and I think I look so great and I thought I looked bad exactly my whole life thinking there's like picture upon picture upon picture of me when I know I I didn't think I looked good and I look and I'm like holy shit I look great you know I mean and I just and

it's like you say you waste time you know although I have a theory that, that if in your twenties, if you knew what you knew in your fifties, you'd be too powerful. It would throw, it would throw the universe off. Like no one, no one should have the combination of youth and wisdom. They need to be, they need to be split up so that to keep some balance in the universe. That is so interesting. Yeah. Maybe you're right. Because I think that's why I'm just being like, I'm 64.

Yeah. So sue me. Yeah. Because I feel like I have more wisdom. And I think back on my 20-something self, and I think, ah, I was so hard on myself. That was kind of a waste. Yeah. But like you said, maybe you have to get through these decades to kind of have that perspective, you know?

I don't know. When you get frustrated, I just see this sort of like the unrealistic body image that culture sort of imposes on especially women, but on everybody. And I think that's so unfair and that's so wrong. But I'm as affected by it as anybody. I'll see someone and I'll be like, oh, that guy shouldn't wear that. Or maybe he should have gotten that in a bigger size, you know, all like, it's all in me too. And it's the same thing with you spend, you know, you're told and we're all told and it's all true. It's looks don't matter. It's not what's on the outside. It's on the inside. And then you turn on any number of the TV shows that were the American Idol or The Voice.

And it's kind of like if somebody sings great, that's great. If they sing great and they're pretty to look at, like, boy, yo, yoing, like that's super. And nobody denies it. Nobody goes, nobody says like, well, the fact that that person is beautiful doesn't matter everyone's like nope sorry that's we just the kind of apes we are we like that you know it's important to us so yeah it's it's always kind of to me it's like I don't I I mean you know I I never know where to fall on that in terms of when somebody, especially in music and especially women, where their kind of beauty is just something that, yeah, celebrate that and not kind of, well, the beauty is diminishing the other parts of why they're up there. You know, like just the beauty is diminishing the lyrics or the musicianship or the, you know.

Yeah. The whatever. It's, you know, I don't know. It's just always, I also, because I, you know, like I'm so, I'm just, like I never had to, I never had to worry about like being too pretty. Like, and I just can't imagine the pressure of it. You know what I think? You don't have to wear high heels.

Yeah. Okay. I have worn high heels though. So I haven't. I mean, I've done lots of comedy bits where I had to wear high heels. And I think every man should have to wear high heels. I refuse. Yeah.

There are certain things that are just like, check that off the list. No. Yeah. No way. Like, it's a torture device. Yeah. You see, I look at, if I ever happen to, like, it's the Academy Awards or something, and you're, like, looking at these costumes, and the women are, like, I know what that

pain feels like to have your toes squashed. Yeah. I won't do it. Yeah. I won't do it. I don't care anymore. I'm just done with it. That's me. And I'm a very not tall person, and I just like, that's it. I'm wearing flat shoes.

Yeah. I'm not going to do it. It's not worth killing my toes. Yeah. I just don't do it. But that said, to each his own, you know, or her own, or their own. You know, it's what makes you feel comfortable. But I think that I sort of decided in my 60s, and I do want to feel comfortable. I just do. I want to be, I want to write books and sing songs. And I don't, I don't, I'm not sort of focusing on, yeah, those are my focuses. So I'm sticking with it, you know, and I just, so, I mean, yeah, that's where I'm at. Yeah.

Is there a big difference between the Susanna who is in a band, in the Bangles, and then the solo artist? Or is it all just part of a continuum? I think it's part of a continuum. I really do. For me, when I really think about what it is I love about music and why music is such a powerful force in my life or a source of inspiration. It's because I think inside of, in all songs, is a story. It's sort of an outlet for us to kind of, as a society,

like have a common language. Like music is a language of the story of our lives, really. Inside of every song, whether it doesn't appear to be a story song, like a kind of actual story song where you're being told a story, but there's a story of a set of emotions, or there's a story of loss or joy or heartbreak or courage. There's songs that I like to listen to, like Spirit in the Sky is one that I keep thinking of. When I've ever had to go do something that I was dreading, I would put on that song, and it's like that opening riff, I'd be like, okay, I can, I can. And it would just

actually like be a, a, a call to, you know, confidence and, and, and strength to face something that I was dreading, you know, like, or if I'm sad and, or if I feel lonely, you know, there are songs that I can just feel like I feel like it's a hug like this song is an embrace and and so for me like the difference between were you saying the difference between my solo stuff or the bangle stuff yeah like like in terms of how you I mean how you viewed yourself as an artist how you conducted yourself as an artist, how you conducted yourself as an artist, how you did business as, you know, as just a singer and songwriter and musician. Yeah, I think I always wanted to,

I love being in that flow state. And when you're playing music, whether it's on stage or in the studio, you kind of can't be also checking your phone or something. Like you can't, I like the non-multitask aspect of it, even though one hand is playing the chords and you're singing at the same time. So there is, you know, like that thing.

But there's not, you, if I'm on stage and there's like the subtitles are going, oh God, look at that person who's yawning, you know, while I'm singing my heart out. You kind of can't do that. You kind of have to like be in that singular flow of state focus. And I mean, how often in life, I mean, sports people have to do that. People who, athletes, like there's a certain something that you have to do, like probably when you're doing comedy or you're doing improv where you can't really, it's a singular

task. It's a singular focus. And I always love the freedom of that where you're just, you're given permission to not have to multitask. because I don't really love multitasking. It's like kind of a big epic fail for me. Like I like, if I'm talking, having a conversation, it's really hard when there's all this other, I like to talk and focus on what the person is saying. The same is true for singing. And so in the bangles, when I was singing, whatever it was or playing, I always got permission to just focus on that one thing. There were no phones back in the 80s.

I wasn't checking my phone or anything. Yeah. Let's talk about the book. I mean, we've talked about it sort of obliquely, but it is your first novel. Have you written other books? I didn't see that. I'm holding up the cover. This bird has flown.

Yes. And you know what's crazy? When you've written the book and you're working on it for years, books take years to write. There's the day when you get the email that in the subject line says cover art. And there's the moment where you open your computer and you're like, you're going to click on the email. This is what came out up. There was only the tiniest little tweak on the color of the lipstick. Wow. Because it had something to do with the character and it just, the artist just came up with this and, and I just was like, oh wow.

It's because you work on a book for so long and you don't think about the cover. And then one day, one day you get your publisher sends you the link and you kind of are delighted. Yeah. Well, it's all, it's all on your computer too i'm or do you write longhand yeah so it's all no no it's on my computer it's all on your computer and then all of a sudden it's a real book because i mean books i i mean i don't know about you but to me it's like everything i do is is silly compared to books you know books are important and books are grown up somehow so i know yeah and it's just the whole journey you know then there's the whole journey of like um fellow

authors giving you blurbs which was all you know amazing and then i i've been so very lucky yeah yeah well what's i mean are you got an album, you got a book. I mean, is that, are you going to kind of work in this, you know, do you see yourself working in this sort of two track way from now on where you're going to be doing both? I think so. And I just started writing what is looking, my characters just started talking in my head.

It's a kind of form of madness. So I've started my habit of making sure that I know that when I say, oh, I'll remember that. Really, an idea I had. So I have the Post-it notes. I have my phone. I'm sending myself emails. I'm cataloging everything that the characters are now saying. I'm starting to think of, I've been marinating actually on

like the setting and the, what the story might be. So yeah, I'm very excited. I, yeah, it's an addiction now. I can say that. You got to do both, I would imagine. Oh yeah. I mean, I'll never stop singing. Music is, music is life. Like Ted Lasso says. Soccer is life, right? I actually have a practice. I call it a practice. It's for mental stability and for staying happy, I think, is that I really do give myself permission to indulge in art. Art is my drug. I watch a movie every night. Oh, wow. I do. I do.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and then I read every night. I always read a chapter before I go to sleep because otherwise I'm thinking, it takes me out of my own cycling around. Yeah. Yeah, that's sort of pointless. I'd much rather, because I always learn something.

As someone who likes to make art, I learn something. Something will trigger an idea. I like to be- It's a good habit, for sure. It's a really good habit. Well, is there something, kind of a motto that you have or advice that you have or sort of a point that you sort of have called from your particular path? Absolutely. If I had any advice to give a person, it would be this, that when you really feel passionate about something and you really want to do it, try it, whether it's anything in the arts or sports or school related, don't, particularly this works for the arts,

but don't wait to be given permission to do it. Just dive in. If you really want to write a song, you really want to write a book, make art of any kind, I think that it's very important to not talk yourself down from that. I just really feel like it's okay. You're going to have to learn a lot when you try something new.

But that's part of the process. But don't tell yourself the story that you can't do it. You know, I mean, there's just, I really, I look back on the course of my life in the arts, and had I not just been scrappy and determined to start a band, I don't think the Bengals would be the, you know, would exist. And had I not told myself that it's okay to, you know, write a book, and I didn't take any classes or anything. I just read a lot and I just

made a lot of notes and noted things that I loved in other books. And I, it just self-taught. I think that there's, that's a totally, you know, reasonable way to dive into something. You just, if you're passionate, you know, and if you want to take a class, I'm meandering here, but that's good too. For me, I knew I wanted to be an artist, and I knew that that was taking a leap of faith in myself, but I just did it. So I'm just here to say, kids, if you want to sing, sing. If you want to play, play. If you want to write, write. And there's so many ways to study your craft.

There's so much out there to listen to, to read, to watch, you know, and you can learn from that. That's fantastic advice. Advice that I, you know, I don't follow enough, to be frank, you know. Honestly, you know, I have, you know, I'm sitting here listening to you say that, and I'm thinking, like, yeah, there's all kinds of stuff I thought, yeah, I should do that. And then, you know, I end up, I make a nice dinner, you know, or we go for a walk, you know, which are all nice things, too, but there's a lot, you know, know that i do feel like yeah no i could i could press myself a little harder i could you know i could push and once you get the bug since you write anyway i'm not saying you you should you know

spend years writing a novel or anything that's what that's what happened with me but yeah i just But yeah, I just think it's, had I waited around for someone to say, you, you get to do this, it never would have happened. You know, like I had to be really, I had to drill down on the idea and make it real and really get the practice of it every day. of it every day. One of our kids is wanting to write and I'm like, he's seen how many hours I sit in the chair and don't get up. Like I'm just doing it. So yeah, it's hard work, but that's okay. It's rewarding. Well, I'm glad we made this happen. This has been great talking to you And I really appreciate your time And everybody go by This Bird Has Flown It is available Everywhere, every bookseller And your

Album The Deep End Came out earlier this month And I got a chance To listen to it today and it's really great It's really excellent Song choices which is always When you're doing covers chance to listen to it today and it's really great it's really thank you excellent uh excellent song choices which is always you know when you're doing covers is yeah well thank you so much uh Susanna Hoffs and thank all of you out there for listening and I will be back next week

with another episode of the three questions bye-bye the three questions with Andy Richter is a team coco production it is produced by Daugherty and engineered by Rich Garcia. Additional engineering support by Eduardo Perez and Joanna Samuel. Executive produced by Nick Liao, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross. Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, with assistance from Maddie Ogden. Research by Alyssa Graal. Don't forget to rate and review and subscribe to The Three Questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts. And do you have a favorite question you always like to ask people? Let us know in the review section. Can't you tell my love's a-growing? Can't you feel it ain't a-showing? Oh, you must be a-knowing. I've got a big, big love.

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