The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 127: Thud! Pt. 1 (Whomst Among Us?)

Episode Date: October 8, 2023

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 1 of our recap of “Thud!”. Burglereah! Murdearh! Trickereah! Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretWant to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Black Shuck - Wikipedia The Not-So-Great Bake-Along - Week 1 - Two-Hats TelevisionJanet Jackson had the power to crash laptop computers - The Old New Thing Terry Pratchett interview - Thud! & Where's My Cow? - YouTube Terry Pratchett: A Life With Footnotes - PenguinThe Spectacle of the Panorama - British Library Cyclorama - WikipediaMy Bed - Wikipedia #Pratchat62 Notes and Errata - PratchatFrancis Quarles. Excerpt from "A Feast for Worms."    Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com 

Oh, we're doing well today. There's just so many windows front soon. I know. We lived in whatever century it was, we'd have to break some of them up for tax reasons. I can't call my dog Eta, because Jack tells me that sounds like a terrorist organization of ask separatist one, which I should have known if I didn't.

Oh, I was just thinking like Essah James. Yeah, I mean, for context listeners, the puppy we're adopting at the end of the month is currently called Doris and that's not really terrible. You can't have the Doris. It's very sweet and it kind of suits her, but I just can't shout Doris over a field in Suffolk. Like four old ladies will come out of their houses. But yeah, so I like Elkie.

Elkie is another singer name. Jack didn't sound too keen. I know it's hard to tell with Jack singing. The thing is about dogs in folklore and mythology, which is where I'd like to get a name from. So I can't really name her after a dog in folklore or a mythology, because they're almost all evil, omens, or they're there to die of sadness when they're only dies. Yeah, no, there is that.

Well, we were thinking again, if it had been a male dog, I'd like, especially a big black dog, Shuck would have been great, even though that is a cursed omen dog. Yeah. Isn't Shuck a great name for a big black dog? Like, black shuck is a kind of suffocated call for.

Listen to this, you know. You could call a girl dog Shuck. You could, couldn't you? I've always felt like scout, but that seems a bit overdone. I don't know. And you can't call it anger, because we've never really fully agreed on how to say anger. I found a pronunciation guide I hadn't found before the other day, the start of the Pratchett Shakes beer book. Mm-hmm. Has a couple of pronunciation bits. It's Githa, Organ, Angua and Esmi and a couple of the ones we'd

worried about before. I think I'm saying them all right then. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I think I was leaning towards Geitha, but hopefully I just went round to your way of thinking in the end. Ah, normally I come with either of that. How about Sackarissa? Sackarissa is a lovely name for a dog.

I was going to go for two syllables. Yeah, no, that's fair. Sackarissa is a lot name for a dog. I was going to go for two syllables. Yeah, no, that's fair. Sakura's is a lot to shout across fields. Well, that is me. Good be, as me. I like Esme, but I'm thinking it's just a pronunciation thing as well. Like, I just want it to be quite easy. So I'll think about it.

Greg Ham Crusher. Oh, Greg Ham Crusher. So I think what I'm probably just going to do is flick through a few of the brewers books and things and just pick something I like to make. Look over again. Yeah, that works. What are you being up to this week? Trying to figure out without a recipe how I'm going to make custard creams. Oh, for the bake off column I'm doing. I thought you were going to buy a packet. I was considering buying a packet and as I have to go to town tomorrow and I still don't have a taste tester this week, so I'm going to have to make someone meet up with me so I can feed them biscuits.

If you do make custard creams, would you have to do all the filigree? Well, no, so on the show they had a special stamp cutter thing for doing it. I refused to, part of my rules for this bake off column I'm doing is that I'm not buying any special equipment. Good. Yeah, very clever. I will instead be my guy foring things. So I'll come up with something.

The filling they're doing is a cremabur, which I have made before, more than once, and I have consistently factored out more than I've got it right. Oh, I know a decent custard buttercream recipe that isn't a cremabur, so I'm currently trying to decide whether to make the custard buttercream that I trust, or whether to attempt the way they do it in the show and risk not doing it in the time frame. Please can you call the column the cast of buttercream that I trust? Or at least subhead it. That's such an eye sentence. I will throw it in somewhere. That's just unlikely cadence to that sentence. Anyway, sorry, but yeah, what's a

crema bur? Crème bur? Burkrum. It's a kind of type of buttercream, but it involves using egg yolks and you kind of cook the egg yolks by whisking them up and then pouring on sugar syrup and then you whisk butter into it. And it's really lovely if you get it right and in this case we had it in custard powder. I had to buy custard powder which is not something I normally have in the house. And you get a lovely buttercream type thing with it that is very custardy. It's just I'm unlucky when

it comes to things like sugar syrup, oh and another specialist equipment but I don't have a sugar thermometer which I might actually acquire one of those at some point. It's not like specialist equipment is it? Well it is but not for you. It's not specialist equipment compared to a custard cream cutter. Yeah. Imagine, imagine making so many custard creams you had a custard cream cutter. Yeah. Imagine making so many custard creams, you had a custard cream cutter, just it. Which is why on the one hand this challenge annoys me because it is make something that no one ever fucking makes because they come in a packet, but it is actually two techniques that like a decent home maker should know, which is a cremabair

on a shortbread. Shortbread I can make. That's what I can do. I do have to look at a recipe for ratios and things, but I can reliably make a shortbread, so that's nice. Luckily, I reliably have shortbread ratios in my head because I make sweet and savory versions quite a long. I was watching an episode of Taskmaster, but the challenge was make pancakes and eat one

in however many minutes it was. And with all of the made omelets, somehow I think they knew it was eggs and flour and milk and just went fucking nuts with the eggs. What, how? I don't know, I guess they just never made pancakes. Nuts with the eggs. What, how? I don't know, I guess they just know pancakes. Yeah, I guess actually, not all of us grew up really fancy in pancakes and making them constantly.

It was dangerous to let me in the kitchen with the knowledge of how to make pancakes because I suddenly went from like, oh pancakes, special yearly treat to I can just have pancakes whenever I want. We always have the ingredients for pancakes and I know how to make them. I was like that with eggie bread. Oh yeah. Oh, I'm hungry. Oh wow, now I'm hungry.

I get, no, I'm not. I'm not. I ate a massive fish fingers sandwich. It was very good. I haven't had dinner yet, so I have some cheese for D-Rot. I had a, I had a big lunch. We should probably, yeah, we should probably. Sorry.

We do need to catch up soon, I think, because at the moment we are just having a coffee. I have a big plunge. We should probably, yeah, do you want to go? Sorry. We do need to catch up soon, I think, because at the moment we are just having a coffee. Lovely. Cool. Do you want to make a podcast, though? I do want to make a podcast, yeah, but then we'll, we'll, we'll mean up soon. That's my podcast. Hello and welcome to the true shall make you fret a podcast in which we are reading and recapping

every book from Toe Pratchett's Discord series, one of Stime Inchronological Order, I'm Joanna Hagen. And I'm Francine Carroll. And today we are talking about THUD. THUD! I'm trying not to yell too hard in her microphone, but yes, sad, thud, thud, yeah, that's good. Cool. All right, gliby girl, that's okay. So this is the 34th book in the Discord series.

No one spoilers before we crack on. We are a spoiler like podcast. Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book, Thud, but we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series, and of course we're saving any in all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there. So you, dear listener, can come on the journey with us.

As fast as humanly possible, but not, and I'm very clear about this, trying to traverse an open swing bridge in a four-horse carriage. No, because that would be silly. Quick little bit of follow-up. Oh. Jeffrey or Jeffrey Michael, backwards name on Twitter.

Yep, yep. I'm not going to try and say how it's actually spelled on Twitter out loud. Has sent us a link to a very cool little article about the fact that Janet Jackson can crash some laptop hard drives much in the vein of the woodpecker. Specifically the video for rhythm nation. So I won't go into the whole thing. I'll link to the article in the show later as if you want to read it, but that is a fun thing to learn. Oh yes, that's very cool. I think there's a podcast episode about it. I listened to years ago. I completely's very cool. That's sad that I think there's a podcast and I've said about it, I listened to years ago.

I completely forgot about that. That's amazing. Yes, well, remind it, yes. Garbage, yeah, we should have brought that up, yeah. But then we wouldn't have anything for the follow-up section, Francis. Well, that's true. Francis, would you like to introduce us to the book Thud?

Thud. Thud. I can't do it. I feel self-conscious when I try and make my voice deeper, you know, like if I'm driving I'll do all the deep bits and while I'm singing, but in front of people I just feel like a twat. Anyway, as usual. You tell them talk too much today, can't you? Third was as you say the 34th Disguiled Novel released in September 2005. Note, by this point, Pratchett was Dr. Dr. Pratchett.

This would eventually become 10 doctors, but I noted that's where we were on the timeline. So we got all the way up to David Tennant. Yes. Very nice. Oh, I listened to a clip on, I think it was TikTok of a podcast that was clearly talking about Doctor Who. And I guess everyone just calls like Tannins Who 10. Yeah. I was like, yeah, so that was confusing for a minute then. I was like, that's a really familiar name for why not just say David, but no, 10 because he's tantascript. Anyway, so this is the second, just

well book title with an exclamation mark, I believe. And yes, it starts. Don't. Right. No, but I was thinking that God says two exclamation marks, so it's the third, and then I remember that's not how numbers work. Second book, third exclamation mark, quite right. Yep.

I quite like to note books that have random punctuation in ever since Westwood Ho. Okay, I'm into my consciousness, and of course that is one of the few town names with an exclamation mark. Anyway, so, FUD, which is also a game, and it's the sound of a murder, and it's the sound of a heartbeat and a drop shoe,

and it's just a very good title. But my usual kind of looking around with cool infies and stuff, I found the same interview that I really enjoyed the monstrous regiment, the German, the American one I told you about who's like obviously really into Pratchett and like that was really good back and forth. So I will link to that. From Rob Wilkins' book, forth, so I will link to that. From Rob Wilkins' book, I learnt that this was the first real success story in America or the first success story as of publication. I'm sure by this point, obviously, the lecture was pretty popular. It was the autumn of 2005 and half a collins of just published stud. In those days, the coming weekend's New York Times list would be released in advance to publishing houses on Wednesday evening, anytime between

5 and 7. This particular Wednesday, Jennifer Brille, had left the office for her two-hour commute home before the list arrived. Therefore, the news reached her blackberry when, inconveniently, she was on board a packed metro-north train heading out of Grand Central Station. Worse than that, Jennifer realised she was seated in a quiet carriage, where mobile phone news was frowned upon. But what the hell, this really couldn't wait. She called the chapel. Oh my God, it's hit, it's hit, Terry, Terry, you're a New York Times bestseller. They were disapproving Shosh. Noises from her fellow commuters in the carriage, but Jennifer chose to ignore them. At his desk in England, a boomyumeuse Terry said, Jennifer, are you crying? You're crying! Jennifer, it's just a list!

Terry! Jennifer exclaimed both to her author and to the rest of her carriage. We work so hard on this and you are going to allow me to cry! Oh, that's such a beautiful story, I'd forgotten that one. Yeah, so nice. And that I think is in lieu of any of the fun award stories. Yes. And yeah, do you want to tell us what happens in this past section? Where did we get up to? So it's page 153 in the call you pay for back, 160 in the new appanguian pay for back thanks to a lovely Twitter listener. And I can't remember the other one that someone's given us on Discord. 200 is 200 and a half back I think. Yes, and it's with the line yes sir, I think really so, you have to be there.

In this section. In this section. Tank wrote a club thuds, a troll sees and vimes shaves while listening to the paper. Dwarfs argue in darkness and blame a troll. Meanwhile at the watch house, protesters aren't happy about bloodsuckers, there's a vampire interviewing for the watch. Anger gives the new recruiter tour while Vimes meets his new government inspector. Enter Colan with an interruption, there's something going down with the dwarfs and it's not just Coot and Valley, he can feel it in his water. Troll graffiti adorns walls and before Vimes can worry about the valley for long there's

drama in the canteen. Vimes calms the calamity and colon and nobs go for a stroll. They're keeping the peace and nobby's got a girlfriend and goodness, there's been a bugder here, the gallery here. Oh no! Mathodia Raskall's coon valley painting is gone just before I could be displayed in the round for the first time. Colon spots a height-based clue. Vimes interviews Sally the vampire the Vampire and Haya sir, just as carrot interrupts,

grab Ham Crusher of the Deep Down dwarves has been murdered. The dwarves are keeping quiet though, that watch isn't supposed to know. Vimes goes to see the Deep Downers with a rag-tag bunch of diverse misfits in tow and briefly does a little guarding of his own before seeing the writing on the wall and meeting Ardent. Deep Underground Ardent insists that the dwarfs have things handled and they might be appointing a smelter to solve the case, although it was definitely a troll what done it. Vimes wants to address the grags and en route he nicks his hand on a door. Brick wanders, did he see dwarfs? Vimes is back in daylight just in time for a thrown brick and a dwarf gets arrested. Carrots have been appointed

smelter and takes the night vision enabled Sally and Angua with them to the lightless crime scene. Vimes deals with paperwork with some impassistence and gets a visit from some trolls. Crysophace would like a meeting, but there's no need to be threatening about it. Meanwhile a creature swims in a mind. In the Bork Futures warehouse, Crysophace insists that a troll didn't commit the murder and offers info for a slide bust. The imp reminds Sam that it's almost 6 o'clock and it's time for a coach run. With the aid of

Carrot and Melcoach and a clothes road or two, Sam makes it home for six o'clock. The reading of the book takes place before he dozes off. Carrot and Sally call by to tell a blanket clad Sam that things are getting weird down there. They've seen the body, but not the murder scene. You had to be there. You had to be there. So helicopter and line cloth watch, which I definitely didn't forget to do and then quickly think of something while you were introducing us to the book. I didn't actually know to line cloth down just in case for some reason. I think there's some going on mind-sync going on here. The throne brick I'm giving helicopter runners.

The Throne Brick, I'm giving Helicopter Onors. Mm, yep, yep, very nice. And the Goats skull adornments on the tougher looking trolls, I think. I mean, obviously, again, there's loincloths implied there, but I really like the little goat skulls. Very nice. I was going for a Christophe Paces suit, which is specified as like an upgraded loincloth. True.

I think yours is more loinclothy. I think mine is more in the spirit of the loincloth as it were. And in the geography. In the geography of the loincloth. Okay, that's me. Sorry. I love you so excited. I made it weird somehow. Quotes, do you want to go first? There was a click behind him, and the faint song of steel wires and detention yet yearning to be free. Detritus had shouldered his bow. Ooh. And then Little Honourable mentioned

a little bit later when he, uh, let's the bow go, is it, well? Yeah. There was the instant slap of the bow, a sound as of a swarm of maddened bees that plink, plink, plink of arrow fragments turning a circle of metal roof into a colander in the smell of burnt hair. Beautiful. Very evocative weaponry. It is a fantastically evocative weapon.

Has the actress said to the bishop? Sorry, I don't know what's wrong with me today. Sorry, I don't know what's wrong with me today. No, it's fine. You've got a more serious quits, you've got to put on your earnest face. Oh, okay, I've got one of those somewhere. The creature was old. Although it'd be more accurate to say it had existed for a long time. When, at the start of all things, the primordial clouds of mind had collapsed into gods and demons and souls of all levels. It had been among those who had never drifted close to a major accretion. Currently, that is to say, for the past 10,000 years or so, it had found work as a superstition.

And partly, that's just us. Everything to do with the creatures swimming through the mind is a great description. And partly, because I can't really find anywhere else to talk about it this week so I want to save it until we've got. Teens a bit more context maybe yeah I love the like the tail flickering as well like I'd like to animate it if I was good at that. Yeah very cool. Let's talk about characters, Sam Vimes, Blackboard Monitor Vimes. I love how he turned that little sniff around. Yes.

Ah, that's so clever. Getting it thrown back in his face, and we'll get to Arden, but the way he sees it is really vile. The dwarf couldn't have put more venom into the words child murderer. It's like a... It's like a... What you thought the last dwarf plot was serious.

Now, this is serious. Yeah. That fun little joke you made is now a massive smear against your name. Yep. You were just fapping around with a little bit of embassaderoen, even if you did get an any by walls. But again, who must have made us? Who must have made us?

It's not accidentally upset the lupine aristocracy. I really like the book starts with his days starting with shaving. And it's exactly how night watch opens. But it's very similar night watch opens with Sam Vimes had the screen finished shaving before he did something about it. That's not quite verbatim. And again, the book just starts with a shaving. It's like this nice rhythm of his day that even Nightwatch hasn't fucked with.

Yeah. And he even starts in the thing like shaving himself was a confirmation that he was still sound vines. I think it's definitely established as a grounding exercise for him. Yeah. And he always felt so much better after the shave, didn't he? Yeah, there's something comforting and satisfying about it.

I also really like, so we get this kind of misdirect early in the section of him, like ignoring the portrait appointment and being kind of annoyed about it, that kind of makes things, oh, Sam Vimes is prioritising work over his family. But then you get to, yeah, and thenimes, he's prioritising work over his family. But then he gets it. Yeah. And then you get to 10 to 6 in the book and the run across the city and the male coach and the closed roads. And he has to be there for six o'clock.

And you realise that he's not neglecting his family. He's just, he's got his priority straight in the portrait, less important reading the book to the young Sam at six o'clock. Extremely important. Ah, yeah, I mean, well, A, you could just tell how much fun project it had writing that scene. The little chase scene.

The fucking charge across Agmore for so cinematic. And the passage about how, if you make one excuse, then you cannot slip. It is a slippery slope. Once you had a good excuse, you opened the door to bad excuses. Yeah, and it's very relatable.

There are a few things in my life that I, despite my massive skills of procrastination and excuse making, know very well, I cannot ever compromise on. And I love that Sam Bimes has this one, especially as it involves shutting down an entire fucking city to you to do. Yeah, it's beautiful.

I also like, I've had a weird thing recently where it's just a lot easier to get me to emotionally react to something like a lot more things or make me like choked up. And I'm not going to lie, like Vime's going in and the world goes soft. Oh yeah. The pages of said book were rounded and soft, but to one person in this nursery, this was the greatest story ever told. I've full on choked up. Yeah, same. And it's so nice. And we should say it's well the name of the bit where's my cow, which was obviously

very important. It's a supplemental thing, which we will talk about at some point. Yeah, yeah. I also almost, yes, it is very important. We'll link to our full episode on that. Yes, we have already talked about it with the lovely Ben and Lizov Pratchat. Yeah, in the same bit, just another silly bit, was drivel the dragon. Oh, yes. Killed up under the car.

You're like, are you going to a little god dragon? And it's really easy to imagine as well, especially because this is all like nursery stuff that's obviously come from Atix and just been around the ramkins for generations, so it's all a bit threadbare. Yeah. And I think there's something in a comforting way. It's very windy the poo, like the original books, and you can imagine like E.H. Shepherd illustrating a scene like they've Ah, they did, yeah. And there's also a wonderful line. I've got to say a good example. I'm sure even 10-2, Sam, but you look like a horrible warning.

That's it. Me every morning to myself. Yeah, same. Also, just brief moment, not to do with that, but Sam, his disgruntlement with chess. Yeah, yeah. Only the pawns united, maybe talk the ricks around, the whole board could have been a republic and it doesn't move.

He reminds me, my dad really made me roll, though. Right, so the thing about Fantastic Mr. Foltz. Listen, it's the proletariat. It's writing up against the landowners. But yes, I really want to come up with like Republican rules for chess. Mm, yeah, that seems like a definitely a U project. That's fair.

I think this goes here instead of under-fried as well, just, Bimes letting Fred call in Sam is a kind of a call back to Nightwatch, in a kind of a reminder to us of where they began. Now we know. Yes. I know. We've seen like the younger Fred and the younger Fred with the younger, younger Sam and, um, in the fact that he only does it when he's worried. Yeah. And it's not just night watch, but there's a few moments at this book, some in this section,

some in the next bit, where they kind of say, Fred who says it, you know, oh, it's easy and it was just the four of us and that great big dragon, wasn't it? That's it. Was it? But, you know, simpler. Decision, fucking guy, isn't it? Yeah. Finds also has some new technology.

We've got a new disorganizer for the limp. For Lilka's Brie. At least these, these, I don't love the idea of some murdering several of the sentient little creatures. Yeah, no, I can't say I'm a massive fan. I do like that, you know, oh, let's take the opportunity to make fun of iPods and snake and stuff a little bit. Yeah, Splong. Splong. But also a place to play Splong. I've got the bats. By the way, he's sort of immediately announces, he's threatened state of the craft technology with a hammer everybody rattling the bars.

He threatened state of the graph, technology with a hammer, everybody rattling the bars. I feel like it's very, there's a couple of very multi-biped and escapists in this and I think that was very help helping being oppressed. Yes, definitely. Oh. Speaking of oppression as well, purity the nursemaid, who Sam, one third of a courtesy, before she caught his pained expression, I remembered last week's impromptu lecture on the rights of man. It's only really at home with having a certain sort of servant and it's Willikins, who's backstory,

we get a bit more of in this book. Yeah, and it took him a long time to be at home with this, didn't it? Oh, yeah. It's been a long standing, what's that? Negotiation to get to a level of service that both of them are comfortable with, because Willikins didn't like being asked to call him Sam or whatever he asked him to call him in the first place.

I'm kind of looked down on him a bit, but it seems like they very much found a camaraderie now. And we get this lovely stuff about his backstory as a, in a gang as a youth, I pride myself. I used to give somewhat more than I got if we needed to discuss the vexed area of turf issues. Sir. Sir. I don't think I highlighted,

but yes, you can take someone's out with that. They've used judiciously serving, yes. With cash, yes. Yes, there we go. That being a caper and sewn with sharpened pennies, sir. Yes, yes, there we go. That being a capparene sewn with sharpened pennies. Yes, yes, yes. We are now, I think, fully in a jeep conversation with something a little sharper in the background.

It's very fun. We're looking to remains one of my favourite characters. It just keeps getting better. And then we get some brief sort of introductions to the Painter Mathodia Rascal. I know, I love it just keeps getting better. And then we get some brief sort of introductions to the Painter Methodia Rascal. I know, I love it. I love it. Now, not going to lie, like proper art history and stuff, it's just not my area of expertise. So if there was a much more direct comparison to like a specific artist that I was missing,

like I can understand I may not have got what might be an obvious joke somewhere. Thus I greatly enjoy that he thought he might be a chicken slash was being stalked by a chicken. Yes, absolutely. There are a lot of mad artists. I might do a bit of reading actually to see if that's what I feel like might be a reference. Yeah. I feel like the Cooomballey itself, like the closest big piece of art depicting a battle I can think of is the Bayer tapestry.

Hmm. And nice and long as well. Yeah. Different vibe. And I don't think the Bayer tapestry is meant to be shown in the round. Have we tried? I don't know if anyone's put the Bayer tapestry in a big circle. It's called a sicklarama, by the way, a psychlarama.

Is that what it's called? When, yeah. So there was this massive, I'll probably talk about this a bit more in the second or third part, but I'm going off memory here. There was a craze for panoramas where you'd kind of go on a little walk or in some cases, I think, even a little ride past very long images. And a sicklarama, psychlarama, was when it was, yeah, displaying it. Oh, I love it. And around thing like that. Yeah, it's like a,

yeah, it's like an immersive thing. And so, early days of VR. Yeah, very, I think it was like a Victorian craze. But yes, poor Mathoud here in his chicken. Oh, yes. And then Greg Ham Crusher and the deep downers. Hot new boy band. Sorry. When Willikens is reading the paper to Vimes, one of the things he mentions is there was a report of that speech by Greg Ham Crusher.

There was a disturbance afterwards it says. And that's like reminiscent of so many political moments. There's something about just the use of that speech. Like to me, my brain went to like the Eno Parable Rivers of Blood. Exactly the same. Yeah. Yeah. This very specific excitement that has taken place that is part of something that's been bubbling. Yeah. And the quotes he does pull from Ham Crusher, just fascist playbook ones, aren't they? I mean it's you know it's disturbing to read, having red simulons from our history and not very history, history. Quite recent history.

He preached the superiority of dwarf over troll and young dwarves listened to him because he talked about history and destiny and all the other words that always got trotted out to put a gloss on slaughter. Oh yeah that's a fucking gloss on slaughter. The duty of every dwarf was to follow in the footsteps of their forefathers and removed troll kind from the face of the world. It was written in some holy book apparently, so that made it okay and probably compulsory. Absolutely. And just this idea of abusing the belief that the dwarves have that they need to be good dwarves, that they need to be close to their forefathers to push this specific ideology full of hatred. This eye in the long way from the bones of my grandfather's please help me stay at

dwarf. That was very nicely written as well, wasn't it, just those little snippets of prayer. Yeah, it was a bit like the letters, wasn't it? Yeah, a bit. And then with the deep down doors, we have helm clever. Do you think it's helm clever or helm cleaver? I think it's helm clever, and I think the little pause, as I think it was Vime said helm clever, is because helm cleaver has changed his name slightly for the sensibilities of humans. Yes, that was my guess. Something along those lines. This idea of the daylight face, and he's shocked by that mention of his potential relatives, the Helm glivers of Talolane.

And it's a nice setup that we'll get the payoff for later. Yeah, yeah. Loving all of the various street names as well, by the way, I don't think I noted many of them down, but again, it's just a little... Oh, tallolane, isn't that? That's nice. That's more parking. That's very more parking, especially because they've been, you know, mining. Yeah.

And found some pigtrikel and what have you other mining down there? Yes, yeah, that's right. And there's, oh, I forgot, yeah, all the bits of elephant. Strictly mine road. An ardent. Yes, yeah, that's right. And there's, oh, I forgot, yeah, all the bits of elephant. Oh, trickle-mine-road. An ardent, so I talked about that. He says blackboard monitor, but his introduction is great. It may have been Lord Fettinari speaking. It was the same level tone indicating he'd noticed you

and you were in some small way and necessary chore. As we briefly meet John Smith and Doreen Winkings of the Uber World Temperance Society. Oh yes. We expand the cast slightly unsettling vampires. I love to say John Smith, who's actually a vampire, is working very hard to be as normal as possible with his bad jumper and his... Oh, bo- as possible, including refusing to let the last is up you into her wife into her life. She's a wife. She's a wife with a vampiric life. Thank you. Wines. And vines are so frustrated, you were born in Cockville Street, your mum was a washerwoman, no one would ever rip your night dress off, not without a crane.

But you're so into this. It's interesting that a lady you do kind of agree with him. Vines definitely come off well here, doesn't he? No, he does not. He's just being petulant in his own brain, and I think he probably knows it. I think deep down, he knows it. What's interesting is, and it happens before meeting them, Vimes chats to Otto outside the watch house

about during the anti vampire protesting. And also he says, you know, do you not mind this? He said, well, they don't mind me, you know, I'm funny, a little also, I make them laugh and Vimes realizes like, oh. Yeah, no, you look like a musical vampire. It never previously occurred to vines that the joke was on other people. And it's a nice call back to the truth where you see also actually not be his good sensible League of Temperance, Black Ribbon

herself and strike out against Williams' father and be a bit vicious. Yes. It also links nicely to a little bit further on in the section where Vines is playing the comic policeman. Like I said, it's removed the cigar, tucking it behind his ear for later. There's got a few more chuckles. Let him laugh, said Vines to himself. At least they're not throwing things. Yeah. I think, and then he goes in and does his policeman thing, which is not very funny at all.

Yeah. And while we're on vampires, we have, of course, Salatia, De La Resista, Amaneeta, Trigger Star, Trigger Star Tra, Zeldana, Malafita von Humparding. Mm-hmm. Slipping over a few pages there. Josh, it never gets all for me. I can't. Vampires get home and scroll, like, with it, yeah, fuck it, anything, like, oh, there, there. Just vampires acquiring names, but yes, we can call us Sally.

Thanks. We don't see much of her in this. I like that she's immediately thinks of camera doesn't amount of God-like proportions. She likes him. The nicer guy is not with tentacles. And having had some pre-warning about her locker being messed with doing the gala cup, the radishes carved into garlic and throwing a few chili seeds in one for the guys round her up. Yeah, it's like as far as we know, she's not any kind of threat to anybody, but everybody's reaction to her is pretty extreme. Yeah, this person is a loaded gun.

She's also, I think, sort of going into Angua, Sonny's immediately out as a vampire being in the watch, whereas Angua came into the watch as a werewolf, but her big thing for being part of diversity is that she was female. And she wasn't known to be a werewolf. So it was a very different flavor of ribbing, I guess. Yes, yes, especially because the watch was so small at the time, and the kind of ribbing you got was from Kolan and Nobi, who weren't going to do things like leave a fuck, I don't know,

what's a female equivalent, leave a song in the fucking locker or whatever, like obviously like they could, the chest parts I think was all like one of them good was that vines could stutter out about the armour, yeah. But I like this this beginning of this little conflict that gets set up between Sally and Angro and Angro is throwing around this particular werewolf vampire issue of the exuders of Fattlesses and make everyone else feel second-class and awkward. And because it's obviously also a conflict between two women and one of them is with Carrot, the other one clearly fancies Carrot quite a bit.

So there's, but there is that thing sometimes if you're kind of firm and with a firm presenting person who just seems like they're managing to be perfectly presented all the time and you're someone who feels like a human smudge. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. From personal experience at all here. Oh, mate, it's not fucking constant in it. But I'd like that all though it is constant in it. But I'd like that although it is the kind of simmering background conflict is a little stereotypical angle is not reacting to it in a stereotypical way at all. She's

deep breath. Yeah. She's a well-versed person. Yeah. You're a colleague. There is absolutely no need for me to be a tryat about this. I'm sorry. And on some, as well. You've done nothing wrong. Yeah. Sally doesn't seem to be trying to actually play anything. No, no, exactly. You've not done anything wrong by finding Captain Carrot attractive.

Yeah. We can't help it. It's just what he looks like. Yeah. Even if he doesn't have any tentacles. Mr. A.E. Pessimal. Mm-hmm. Mr. A.E. Pessimal. I love him.

I love a port. He's who I was talking about when back in Fifth Elephant, I mentioned that I sometimes mixed in a ghost skimmer up with another character because it's this thing of like this clerk, someone coming from Vestinari's keeping on the watch. Obviously, A.E. personal, different flavor to Winnego's Kimmer. He's not quite a dark clerk. Not quite a dark clerk. He went beyond neat. He's a folding kind of person.

I love that because I read it and I just immediately imagined him like folding up neatly and sliding into a door at the end of the night. I had a very similar image, but it was into this briefcase. Oh, there you go, perfect. He twinkled as he walked. Every move was neat. Spectacles on a string and shovel purse, which I feel like might be a bit of an old saying I'm not very familiar with. A shovel purse, I tried to look up.

It sounds like it's a kind of like horseshoe-shaped purse that you use to tip out about the amount of money you need, pick through it to give the exact change and shot again. Oh, like one of those little ones with the time. Yes, yeah, yeah. Oh, that makes sense. Like with the little class P.A. And the very sweet, you know, finds asking what do your friends call you? There was a major assumption in that sentence you didn't understand. Yes, and that sounds like okay, I'll feel a bit bad for you now. Poor man's been initialed. Deary me. Fred and Nobi. Fred and Nobi, Fred's really found his niche now in this custody officer job, as in her

custard. This is an example of offers. Ymirah doesn't actually have to be funny. Yeah. One of my favourite footnotes in the book. And there's just sort of set up shop with the Kessalon to come and be told things by old coppers and conmen and all the people he's got to know throughout his life. Yeah. Absolutely. It's perfect for him. It is, but he's unfortunately.

His water does seem to be trustworthy. He spots this thing that's kind of happening with the dwarves before carrot seems to. You're not on a wave. They'll walk around in corticals, but it was worth keeping an eye on. It is very funny that he's been put out of harm's way and in this role that's perfect for him. And now they're accidentally writing the middle of But it was worth keeping an eye on. It is very funny that he's been put out of harm's way and in this role that's perfect for him. And now they're accidentally writing the book of something's obviously incredibly important and is going to be ignored.

And yeah. Yeah, Vimes genuinely brushes them off when they try and tell them about the burglary at some point. Yeah. Yeah, the burglary. The burglary. Sorry. Sorry.

And Nabi's got a girlfriend. It's got a lovely girl named Torney. I'm Torney with two ease. And you're not supposed to put your face anywhere, so I'll actually get kicked out for that sort of thing. So exactly. Colon's attempt at delicately discussing pole dancing is a thing of beauty, especially as it starts out with quite a disquieting, coffeoranic dough, for like a couple. Someone having to be slid off the bowl. Yeah, with the wooden teeth, yeah.

But, but, not be seems happy even if he's left the love and glockers of Verity Pushpram, which what a fucking name. Verity Pushpram and her flying crustaceans. Sounds like a really good superhero series I'd read that. Oh, that's it. Unfortunately, she's very aggressive. There's also just a very great little like rule of perfect rule of three structure conversation when Colons says war, what is it good for? And then I'll be comes in with the spring slaves to fend yourself from a totalitarian aggressor, saving civilization against a horde of...

Yeah. And it's very like this doorway, yeah, that's a reference to the thing and then Nabi starts doing the other thing and it does. Yeah, yeah. It's also very what did the Romans ever do for us? Act or do acts. Yeah. Could you start fitting a Monty Python sketch into a warwatch? Is it good for cadence?

I think I know it's, everything gets less funny than we try and explain why it's funny, but just the perfect little podcast is doomed, isn't it? Yep. I would fact, shouldn't have realized this 127 episodes in. But yes, managing to perfectly structure that little rule of three moment there. That's very nice. So, a Reginald stitched. Yes. The man with the key of the chicken. Yes, I'm sorry, I can't help it.

I really love doing the accent. Yes. Also, one of the stupidest funny jokes in the book. There's been a burglar here. Oh, anything taken. Yes, there's a burglar here. Oh, anything taken. Yes, there's a live as a burglar here. Yes. Yes. He had the air of a preoccupied chicken, said without the accent. He just, you can picture him so easily. He's wearing a crevative sorts.

And I think at one point he gets to decide just that sort of posh speak that's just like someone yawning. Modulated yawning, yeah. Hwuk, hwuk, and he's put the hs in. It's even harder to pronounce than Mrs Whitlock, so-ho. Hwuk, fair them the sort of processes of the sadlier disturbed, saddened. Beautiful. And I've met people like this and it is really fascinating trying to work out what the

sentences that are coming out. And I've met people like this and it is really fascinating trying to work out what the sentences that are coming out. Yeah, you don't get many of them these days. There was one on whatever the Fucked Jack was, the prisoner. Oh, that was filmed in the 60s. And I was watching it after I would read this bit and I was like, there, there's one. You don't see them in the wild often anymore. They really do have to escape from their stately homes. I did some theatre in a stately home and the people that ran it, that lived there and

had the titles or whatever at one point. Before we'd gone on, one of them sort of came in and needed to drink and got gin. Water, water. You know them gin! Water, you're sicklier! I don't know, but just sitting by the river. I'm not deprived of it's covering. Anyway. Brick. On the other end of the social spectrum?

By quite some way, he was kind of person whose mere existence is an insult to all decent folk in their opinion. Oh. He's such a sweet sad control. I know, I like Brick. I love Brick. I think he's such a sweet sad troll. I know, I like Brick. I love Brick, I think he's a great character. And I like this idea of trolls taking on certain things

and being made of metamorphorical rock. Metamorphorical, yes. That I practice saying. Yes, well done, I'm glad you did. His hide was a dirty orange with a network of horizontal and vertical lines. If he stood close up to a wall, he was quite hard to see. It's nice to imagine them evolving into an even more modern age and like taking on the plate glass of a modern city. Oh yeah, blending them with a shard, because it's still silica, isn't it?

Brutalist concrete trolls. Yeah. Ooh. Nice. But yes, we'll spend more time on brick as we get to the rest of the work. I'll spend more time on brick. More brick later.

More brick for you. Um, the Chrysler face on the other hand. He's got a back in. How's the back? We do recognize him. He's his old avid as well. He's as old as it is, I'll. He's been lurking around on the fringes, lending money, and being a bit sinister.

And soul music, I think, was one of the early, I've borrowed some money off Chrysophage. Fuck, what'd you do that for? Yes, and I mean, the early early one was the first British book, wasn't it? It was a... Oh, yeah. To build the disc, early one was the first British book, wasn't it? It was a... Oh, yeah. To build the disc, the disc, sorry, yeah.

And with him, the Brachio, which has kind of been slowly established as more pork sort of troll mafia, who are community leaders. Yes, the community leaders. Yeah. I'm fine, stops to think about the quisifies he's doing his good old troll talk. And he's thinking, yeah, this guy can hold holds off the thief's guild with one hand and that's not sitting in a pile of snow.

Yeah, absolutely. I found when I was doing the usual kind of browse through the the old forum posts, practice talking about that scene, because one of them was wondering if Christophrase had actually killed that other troll and put him in the box. And Pratchett was like, Christophrase is smart and probably winding vines up in any case. Besides the city is on edge as it is, exactly how important at this time is the fact that one's sug may have killed or maimed another sug. That's not an honorable point, but pragmatically, wines will be pretty dumb to make waves over this at this time.

Mm. Say, you know what I just, because I, yes, I did the same, as I was reading it, I was like, Jesus Christ, that's dark, isn't it? Yeah. So I think I'll choose to believe he was just fucking with him, even though I know he's a terrible murderer.

Murderer. Murderer. Murder murderer. Murderer. Murderer. It's been a murder. Sorry, I just went a bit mad buried. I also just believed that there is not a troll corpse in a small box. You can't reach, I concrete weights to their feet when they're already made of rocks. Oh, fascinating.

Anyway, we meet Christophface in the pork futures warehouse. Yes, which I just put down as a little location because I like the, let's not call back, it's a re-mentioning of this weird concept where the magic involved in pork futures in this universe makes everything very cold, but more importantly, the cold making the troll smart. And we have to think back to this is quite a traumatic place for detritus, you'd think. Yeah, because this was in menacing, he nearly died in there with a bullet wound, and a mathematical breakthrough while he was waiting for rescue. Yeah, it's lucky that he does seem to, you know, process his stuff quite well. He's pretty good at processing his trauma. And he was with his old friend.

Who, yeah, he's... Well, he was until he threw him out the window. Yeah. In a nice way. Throwing out the window, he's a demonstrated brackets of fact, isn't it? A fact, isn't a demonstration. We've all been there.

I do. You're really bringing everyone into your experiences today, aren't you? Oh, yeah. Defentestrated, chased by webels, made some custard creams. How about you? The semi-transparent slabs are yet to be meet hanging in the air, accumulating reality every day. Incredible sentence, horrific description, but an incredible sentence. A lot of the translucent. Yeah, lots of translucent

sea with the Mad Jack in this one, isn't there? The imps translucent in the, yeah. Oh yeah, a bit of a, oh nice, I like it. Half step out of reality. And then obviously the big location, although we don't go there, is a cum valley. CUM valley. Which starts getting set up very early as the point of contention. It was this place years and years ago where there was a big battle and no one can agree over who ambushed who. Yeah. The, the word cum valley is, well, CUM is, uh, well, cum is derived from the, well,

word, for a glaciated valley, interesting, which is, uh, cum, but spelt CWM. All right. There's a couple of, of lines about cum valley, I really like, it wasn't really a place now. It was a state of mind. And the further trolls and dwarves got from the mountains, more that bloody cum valley mattered. Yeah. Which I just, I feel like it's, it really sums up the whole conflict between them. It's not really about who ambushed who, it's just, it's a point to hang the iron. Oh, yeah. And they're using, hang your iron up. And they're using... Come and hang your eye up. Sit down, my father.

And they're using this rage to reestablish their identities as trolls and dwarfs now they're further away from their homeland. This shows me how to be a dwarf and that means being angry about being coon valley. Yeah. He describes it as having a mobile geography, which is... Yeah. Yeah. But yes, know the mine underneath. Thanks more for

Mining for holes mining for space. Ah I'm just yeah because it's amazing isn't it because you can't obviously it's very dark So Biden doesn't seem a lot of it But if you try and imagine it with vampire or well thighs all these different Rooms because it's not just sellers out more pork is built on ink more fork again One of your fake concepts with bag. And so it's all kind of shit, like that carbon at the end, yeah, it's, whoa.

It's giant and it must have been a template to leave. Yeah, and the idea of the houses being atix, anything above the ground being effectively an attic. Yeah, yeah, it's just kind of reorienting yourself to what default is. Yes, absolutely. He cool. I love this book.

Same, little bits we liked. Little bits we liked. You stopped. Something very little. That pea-brained idiot at the post office is only gone on his shoe to coon Valley's stamp. And he is pea-brained because at the post office is only gone on an issue to Coom Valley's stamp. And he is P-brained because he was raised by peas. Oh yeah! Oh I thought he was talking about my fun that thing. I assume, well I mean Stanley is head of stamps. Yeah so it might have been moist idea but I can't imagine P-brained idiot isn't a reference to Stanley. No you're quite right

and I've said it. And we also get, yeah, sorry. We also get the history of the cabbage-centred stamp that turned out to be a bit flammable. Yes, it is nice because that was mentioned in the, in the going pastoral. Yeah, they're talking about doing cabbage-centred stamps. And I don't know if you also spotted when Nobby's talking about his mate Davey reckons the government has just things up. Dave runs the stamp shop. Oh, that guy. So I'm assuming Dave's pinniporium has become a stamp imporium.

Perfect. Well done. No, I did not spot that. Or he's diversified and is doing pinzant stamps. Pins and stamps. Get Dave. That's good. I love that. Well then. Um, then well, that conversation takes place in the art gallery where we also witness a plinth pile of tie with rags. That is don't talk to me about Mondays. Seminal piece of artwork, which I assume might be somewhat perhaps making a little bit of

fun at Tracey M. In. It's definitely around my time for the the my bed piece. Yeah. Which I'll link to a piece about for those you don't know in the show notes. But don't talk to me about Mondays does have a plinth in it. It does like believe make it out. Yes. As far as nude women go it's only art if there's an earn or a plinth both is best best. I too love the, when Nabi brings up, an oya shout out, rising from the cutlery draw. There's no unzul plinths in that. In these situations, you have to ask yourself, where's the cherub? And again, I'm hiding the name.

That's important. I'll go out here and add that. It's among us that's not at some point had to ask, where's the cherub? Even if they're running, it's fine. So I see this is like the divinas and the shallow. I assume, yeah, something like that. Finis and show. I think Paul could be done of an annoyer painting somewhere.

While you were talking about the art and stuff, you might mention the Poon Valley codex. Oh, yeah. This huge, I should probably mention that just as a plot point, I suppose, something like that. I like to be, yes, there's this huge codex, keeping track of everything in the Coom Valley painting and this idea that there's some secret hidden treasures somewhere. Yes, very different, she code coded. Very different Divinci code coded. Which again, also very much the right time. Yes, we'll come back to all of that another time, just while we're on art. Let's mention the setup for the four shadowings.

And also, I was just wondering, what else you think can make artwork, artwork? I think grapes, grapes, very good, very good. I was thinking a shell while we were on Venus. Yeah, yeah, no, a shell is good. Vines, vines definitely add a bit of our obviously a fig leaf. Obviously a fig leaf. Bonus points for your wings. Yes, absolutely. Listeners, please tell us the signifiers of art, write it on a postcard made out of a stolen painting. Thank you. France in honestly I'm very disappointed at the various pieces of art work. You've given me that don't contain earns all these sports eras all great.

What are you accusing me of sending you, Drylar? I know I need to make it very clear that France in has never sent me news. She just painted a really cool painting of us with programs-hards that I love deep-pluged. Even though it doesn't have any earns in it. I have to repaint it with some, with some plints. Oh, actually, would it not be a lovely picture? Like, a bunch of magpies or crows on some plints. Just somehow. Like crumbling ruins and magpies.

That works, doesn't it? All right. Yeah, remember that. Anyway, metaphors. Yeah. Anyway, metaphors. Yeah. Dark reversed metaphors. I love. Yeah, I fucking love all this shit. We had a bit of this before.

Last time we talked to wolves, we've had some of the trollish ones as well, and we'll mention here. I just love the opportunity to look at a common saying and one you really don't think about and apply it to, again, a new default. And so Vime says that one of these draw saying, that ardent I think, saying that seeing the light seems to be corrupted.

Something like that? Yes, different worlds, Commander. Down here it would be unwise to trust your metaphors. To see the light is to be blinded. Do you not know that in darkness the eyes open wider? That sounds very cool. That sounds very cool. I like that. It made me think a bit more about being kept in the dark. All the stuff we talked about in the fifth elephant about how being brought low was a good thing instead of a bad thing. Yeah, really taking a step further and you get the trolls backwards through time as well.

So when Chris faces talk about Mr. Show and he says it's a story from the far off future. In fact, a little bit later, Vines is talking about the investigation and mentions at the moment we are still in the dark. And I don't know, that might just be a practice without it. That might just be a common turn of phrase, but it is making you notice all these terms of phrase where you absolutely wouldn't normally. Especially as the investigation is quite literally taking place in the dark. Yeah. I thought I'd take this off to mention something we like, which is the opposite of light not being dark for something on the other side of dark.

Yes. A one little light illuminating the cellar, which is to say that a different texture is to the darkness and divided shadow from darker shadow and all of this stuff. And the candles are running the ground. Yes, the chasing dark, the little hints that mind sign that I'll talk about this later. We'll talk about it later. But this is always shadowing.

Shadowing. Or shadowing. For light tick. No, still for shadowing. Yeah. But for shadowing brackets, slightly more positive commentations. Verms.

Verms. Verms. Verms. Verms. The quote about being a feast for Verms is a reference to a feast for Worms, which is a poem from 1620 by Francis Aqualus, maybe, which is reasonably well known and grim for him, ends with, or shiftless man watch I'll become a V where are they'll fly to their griping sin will flee It's all very dramatic like that. I'll link to it also I like The idea of all obviously all these faults being lit up

By the berms by the gentle glow we've talked before I think it was at men at arms again When they were in the sewer and everything was kind of lit by these gentle fungi and things. I was like fire-loom-nessence. Fire-loom-nessence, thank you. Yeah, whenever you go into a very dark place just inexplicably everything is gently lit kind of thing. And I love the fact that these are scavenger animals. And nourishment is rare in the deeps. Every breath you exhale, exhale is food. And when eventually you expire, they will descend. And whale fall. Yeah, you like a whale fall. I don't mind any of them. They'll take your bones. They'll take everything

but the bones. I think you said bones as well, I'll tell you down to bones. I'm afraid they don't have teeth. Well, notice the things I think that eat your bones when you're under water. All right, that's a whole lot. Actually, some of them do. Sorry, yeah, we'll come back to that another day. We probably won't have... I don't know when Whale Falls get me relevant. Some of them have transparent teeth. I talked about that in my web. Yeah, and some of them have little scrapers, like the weird little leech looking thing, but sorry. More wail. Jesus. And one last bit before we go on to the bigger stuff,

vines is trying to pay attention to the dwarfish conversation, and can't, and there's a lot, he knew dwarfish in the acts of my aunt is in your head kind of way, which is obviously a very common something of my aunt like phrase when you're learning a foreign language But obviously my brain immediately went oh, we'll a plume del ojot in yeah, dimmer tant you don't have an aunt She doesn't have a gardener. He doesn't have a pen From good omen season two

Yes So I'd like to think this is something that maybe Neil Gaiman and Terry Bratchett have joked about together at the past. Absolutely. It also did remind me of what you've talked about about working kitchens where you just learn all of the curses and swear words but other language and nothing else necessarily.

Yeah, I can say hi and I can swear in Polish and that's about it. And they told me how to pronounce the food that they were bringing me. So I can say piroshi. Yes. Can you say the axomalyzer? No. And a lot of the Polish I can say, I won't in case I upset the sensibilities of any Polish listeners we've got.

That's for the vastness, well done. But I'm sure everyone can guess. Every else's sensibilities we're not very concerned about. I've only care about the Polish sensibilities. Weirdly specifically, Eastern Europeanly kind of racist on the true show, make you fret today apparently. And on that note, should we talk about bad policing? Sure.

Okay, so this part of the book especially sets up this theme of vimes as being quick to anger, but careful to control it. He knows that he needs to watch himself. He's considered by a lot of it is straight if not smart is the kind of thing that said about him. I think Chrysophage puts it, not the sharpest knife in the draw, but honest like anything. And that not the sharpest knife in the draw really sticks with him throughout the book as well. Yeah. But yeah, he's not a bad police and because he watched himself and because he knows he needs to. But then there's also just some kind of weird shitty policing in this.

I think part of it might be so we talked way back in God's Guards about you pointed out something Vime says to do, which is clearly not a good policing. It was a time and character to beat up a bunch of innocent people, basically. And it's definitely better here, but I think maybe we have different standards of shitty policing to pratch it. Yeah, but also I think maybe it's... So I've been to be a shining example here. True, no, I feel like some of it is an example of vines not being a shining example. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think the fact that it is next to a e-Personal pointing some of this out is on purpose. We are inviting just to recognize more than usual perhaps. Because he's got this person putting him on the screen, so you have the Kiss Castodia

Ipsis Castodus conversation. Yeah. And vines insisting, I watch the watchman and I watch me most of all and it introduces this idea of policing as trickery you magic a policeman into everyone's head and you rely on people knowing the rules and giving in and so you have these great moments throughout the section of a finds reminding himself not to go spare yes or to get the facts and then go spare precisely. Very swan kind of thing isn't it calm on the top and then paddling. Madly just done the surface. Yeah. When he goes to the Grags and they're at the dwarf guards and he's encouraging them to go and deal with a higher up instead. He threatens to have door full come and smash the door open.

And as much as I'd like to see Constable door full I'm not sure I want to see him you know smattering the door open without warrant Hmm exactly But it's something that really sat with me the wrong way is that he kind of clocks one of them and then finishes is very quiet encouragement to find higher ups with ma'am Yes, yeah, I think that probably is one way you feel a bit differently. Yeah, different to you. Because it's either that dwarf is chosen not to present female because it's not for them, in which case you're just misgenerating someone. And if they would like to present female but can't because of the life that they have,

then you're outing someone even if you're doing it quietly. Yes. Either way, I don't like it. you're outing someone even if you're doing it quietly. Yes. Either way, I don't like it. I mean, I don't think it has perhaps as direct parallels. No, I don't need these to grow now because there's so much more discussion about this stuff now. Yeah.

For instance, outing somebody I don't think would really be a thing in warfish culture because they know that females exist. Yeah, yeah. But I definitely using using a Towson attack is underhanded in a way that doesn't sit well. Or using to put that to off on the back foot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

I do agree with you largely. I think one of the things that got me was angering into a lot of it. And the bit about the locker room. You don't complain, you don't. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. This will happen. Half of me, half of them, you know, you go along with it, whatever. It's just one of those things. I was like, I was in incredibly toxic environment within institutions like the police, like the police service, like the army. Absolutely. I get it. And love obviously I found it very satisfying as well when they play

off against it or whatever. And it is done quite innocently. Yeah, like the thing that you're being told from Norunga along with is like hazing effectively. Kind of, yeah, but at the same time kind of not. No. Yeah. It is hazing. It is hazing. But I feel like hazing has always been another word for bullying, hasn't it? Yeah. Perhaps it's because I'm the kind of person who would never do well in the world, but we're hazing was required. No, I can do banter. That's about my limit. And even then banter, there is a fucking line. And especially because I came out working in kitchens, which is not the same as working in a big institution like the police, but there is a very fine line between banter and bullying when you work in the industry.

One of the almost counterpoints where you can see Vimes sticking to his non-compromising bits is the the fur coat bit. Yes. And he's furious with himself when he realizes he's almost taken this fur coat and it's in it almost a bribe but not But I feel like Christ praise Wanted him to notice and wanted him to decline the bribe because he gave him a chance Yeah, he said give that to wife he could have let him walk out and remember later and be furious and impudent about it But and nods after it gets short and so says, yeah, almost does anything. Yeah, it's almost like a little test.

Yeah. Yeah, it is interesting. So there's a, you know, obviously, listing everything or one of them. Oh, yeah, no, always be good. It's cool in a watchbook, but yeah, there are a lot. In fact, more than in the other books, I'd say, of like obvious, like, mm, moments that make it.

It is intentionally what makes it thinking of the story. Yeah. Yeah. There was one interesting moment I noticed when he's being taken through the mind and he's realizing the ardent's giving him the runabout and he's getting frustrated.

His temple was bubbling. The dwarfs didn't care about the law about him, about the world up above. They undermine our city and they don't obey our laws. And this is coming not long after this idea of policing being a magic trick. Yes. How much of Vimey's anger comes from fear and knowing the law that takes is not people not agreeing to the social contract and things fall apart. And that was kind of what happened in Nightwatch, but from a different angle. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's... It's with the added fear, isn't it? Hitting in charge of all these people now.

So many people who are watching them leave. Yeah. And he shouldn't. There are a few bits where he's struggling with the idea of his watch not being his watch anymore. And I think that is definitely a, it shouldn't be your watch. Like, yeah, and institution like that, obviously, shouldn't be like a cult of personality. Obviously, it's fantastic that somebody who is very respected and generally a good person is in the head position, but a good organization functions on many more levels than one guy with an office full of paper. But he doesn't want to read properly. Delegation. Absolutely. Dallagation.

Dallagation. Dallagation. Dallagation. Dallagation. Dallagation. Dallagation. Dallagation. Dallagation. Dallagation. We love you, but you know, we do it together. We do it together. But yes, we do it together. And go get some antibiotics.

It's interesting coming into the psychotic. It's interesting coming into this off the back of Nightwatch where you watch the social contract breakdown in such a different way and where the social contract needed to break down. You know something you were thinking about as well, wasn't it, like, comparing kind of Anglemore Pork than a now? Yeah, and it's interesting because the books were written, like, time-wise, on round world, fairly close together.

But there's this big gap between the events. Nightwatch and the events of Anglemore Pork present day. And at the same time, there are a lot of really common themes. So the way that the street tension boiling of simmering in the background is being described is quite similar in different ways. Although it's very different provocation and a very different communities. Yeah, like Dorf's doofson trolls aren't really present in the night watch for the past. Finds acknowledges it at one point, you know, he's trying to explain an officer being killed on duty and can't say, oh yeah, no, there's no all night rap pie shops. I can't explain that that's what they were doing.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and there's like, again, as with Nightwatch, there are these three factions kind of, but they're very differently distributed. And so you've got a night watch, you've got the revolutionaries, the the current lot in power, and you've got the watch who are very matrioliant on magic tricks. I mean, Vimes is keel. His magic tricks are desperate fucking city of fan stuff. Oh, the cup of cocoa as the mob is boiling

when the rest of the city has started to riot. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I love the way all this is described with the little huddles of people and the kind of glairs or not even glairs just stairs. Like, what are you doing here? You don't belong in this cultural moment type thing. I just really well described, I thought.

And then also, it kind of feels separate from the Angmore pork of going post-eal somehow. Yeah. Even though they're both very, you talked about Angmore Pork being rendered being being evolved and fully fleshed out and it still is. And there are some aspects of it like we've got the press, we've got obviously the postal service and we got the stamps and the nick of all mail coach to show for it. And the flags. Oh, and the flag. make a full mail coach to show for it. And the flags. Oh, and the flag.

But at the same time, Moistbom Litvig's Aunt Morepork is a very different place to San Vime's Aunt Morepork. He's been in the same street. It's the same street, but we're spending so much time in San Vimes's perspective in this, and his perspective is narrow, his perspective is right now mostly,

Koon Valley and Baby Sam. Yes. Yeah, I mean, I've had to try and keep more than that in your head. Yeah, it's a big fucker. You don't end up with fucking piles of paper. Yeah, it's, it's very, you can tell the difference in genre that he's going for, or the past, there's not past, Shenny Moore is it, but the framework he's going for,

this is a very dark and gritty, and more pork as compared to the, you know, going for all the past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's

not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past, there's not past of let's not get stabbed in a boys. Going postal just quite literally takes place a lot in daylight. Yes. And when it does take place at night it's lit, it's lit by the safety lamps. At one point it's lit by a big fucking fire. It's still light, still light. And they were dancing. And they were dancing and light from the coaches. It is just taking place in the light. Whereas,

and to an extent, the other guards books because they are the night watch. It is taking place at night time. It is taking place often in the rain. Yes. Yes. Underground running through the snow at night time or any of this stuff.

It's very, yeah, and everything's dimly lit all the time. Yeah, you can always see the light of Sam's the guy. Is one of those things where, if it was a TV show, people would be complaining about it being slightly too dark on Twitter and other people be explaining how to adjust your TV settings, you can watch something that's shot to look quite dark. So on top of that, I just thought, a few bits, so just the city being fleshed out again that I love, sent me the little so just the city being fleshed out again that I love

sent me the little details like the old lemonade factory. Yeah, in the old room. Yes. And the way it's described though, it'd have been the place where bare armed ladies and mixed up great batches of Susperella and raspberry lava and ginger pop. And it's just the fucking layers of history in every room, like the bloody strata of buildings, and he's does such a good job in building this historical city with, you know, really paragraph, so it's paragraphs over all these books. And then you've got other little things that make a bit more modern. You've got a pole dancing club now. You've got gate checks and records and all of this bit about it functioning a bit better like you were talking about last time.

And then a couple of bigger bits like you've got the idea of community leaders in a way that isn't just the guild. Yeah. In fact, the guild systems not, apart from the mention of the fifth guild in relation to Christophase, the guild system is staying out of this troll and dwarf relationship. That's good. I get the impression the guilds are probably still largely a human occupation. And maybe the ones that aren't to a bit more like the like the what want to be and that you're not a dwarf or a trollier and alchemist. And who can tell what species you are when you're completely covered in suit? Exactly.

I see what you mean. And I think there's been jokes about a place called the Pink Pussycat of Club before, but here again, it's quite literally fleshed out. Yes. Oh, I'm looking forward to meeting Tony next week. I love Tony is a very favorite character of mine, especially some of the descriptions of her. Yeah, and like, fleshing out the idea of these minority communities within the city as well. So just the idea of streak of beauty

for trolls being carved in with your fucking finger until the reasonably soft break. Like the idea of this kind of separate set of laws being practiced within the city, it's all very urban reality. And the organized crime of Rackia, I mean, that, you know, is kind of horrifying. And the drug trade as well, this idea of slide and, and Christ the face, I think, and Christ the face, you know, giving out the info for a drug bust and detritus, taking steps again it, you know. Yeah, yeah. Now we want to be a fucking

white collar fraudster, doesn't it? Yeah. Oh, no, this is all getting a bit grim. I like to do for a shy. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was all very cool. And then just to kind of cap it off, I just wanted to mention another fun crowd metaphor, because I know you liked all the descriptions, you liked all the descriptions because you liked all of that. The crowd being a lot more like a mob, but he saw it second glance that it was what he thought of as a plumcake mob.

And I was wondering whether you know what kind of baking metaphor that is. I'm not entirely sure what a plumcake mob. Is it just easy? It's plumcake quite easy to throw together? Ah, yeah, I think so. It's kind of a, you know, chuck some plums in the garden in with a bit of batter.

Yeah. All right. Listeners, please write in with what the fuck a plumcake mob is and send a sample of plumcake, or angry mob. Yes, whichever you prefer, and it's easy to transport via albatross. I take it then plumcake mob is not your obscure reference finial. It's not because I don't know what it means.

My obscure reference finial is I thought I'd do a little full circle. I mentioned at the top the sud of a shoe drop. Yes. And in this case, I thought, actually, fuck, I don't really know what shoe drop means because it was that we're waiting for the first shoe to drop. Yes. And apparently the phrase was popularized in the early 20th century, I think, in New York, tenement style buildings, and basically people living above you quite thin, badly constructed ceilings kind of thing. You would very clearly hear somebody come in start to get under a Thud as they drop their shoe and then there's just that moment of Waiting for the other shoe to drop. Yeah, and yeah, so that's what I learned that delights me

That was fun Amazing, I'm saying right Sorry, I like to's it, I guess. If you don't mind. Yes, that's all right. I forgot about the end that you're, I just usually hang out here. We just ramble into it.

We suddenly remember when the listeners are still paying attention. Leave now while there's time. No, and that's everything we're gonna say about part one of third. We'll be back next week with part two. We should have some page 154 in the call you payback. I don't think I can go through with this angerhead hissed as she headed along trickles three again. It's the flashback to the visit down the

mine. And ends on page 302 in the cally paperback. We don't have time, said vimes, you've got 10 minutes. Nice choosing of lines without spoilers, by the way. Thank you. Until next week, dear listeners, you can follow us on Instagram, the True Shell Mickey fret on Twitter and Blue Sky at Mickey fret pod. I'm still not using the other name. Facebook at the True Shell Mickey fret. I'll join our subreddit community, our slash TTSMYF.

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I'll just text Helen for a drink and she can taste as my custard creams. Perfect. That sounds so jazzy. It does, doesn't it? Or you bring a plinth. I want to try my custard creams to write, I've got an urn. Alright, go and have some.

Yes. I'm going to order some chips. Bye. Bye. Bye! Bye!