The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 128: Thud! Pt. 2 (Flammable Rhododendrons)

Episode Date: October 15, 2023

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 2 of our recap of “Thud!”. Axes! Clubs! Six Inch Heels! Find us on the internet:DiscordTwitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretWant to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Plum pudding model - Wikipedia Puddingstone (rock) - Wikipedia The Battle of Alexander at Issus - Wikipedia Unruly by David Mitchell review – monarchs behaving badly -The Guardian Saint Hildegard - Britannica Francisco Goya - BritannicaMaking a Dress From a Painting - Sarah Hambly - YoutubeMusic: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

Right, well, this has been a lovely episode. Yeah. Should we make it now? There's been a good week for stuff coming out. It has. What's come out this week, Joanna? Well, a stroke of the pad came out on Tuesday. Definitely Tuesday, not Monday, and at no point did either of us forget the difference between Tuesday and Monday. I maintain that the 10th of October should have been a Monday.

It's really not my fault that reality... it is, it's my fault, sorry. The thing is, I completely agreed with you, despite being 100% sure that the eighth of October was Sunday because it was my sister's birthday. Well that's true, both of those things were true. Also it's Friday the 13th today, so let's just save that for us off. Yeah, yeah, that is also why a lot of things have gone wrong in my day to day. Many things. However, a stroke of hen did come out on Tuesday, by us trying to tear apart the fabric of reality. And if you haven't listened to our interview with Pat and Jan Harkin,

I recommend you go and do say darling snows because they all planned to ask to take story tellers and you carry Pratchett and got to do cool research. Yeah, it's a very very good editing it as well as doing it like it was good. I'm quite enjoying with the stroke of the pen because we are going to talk about it on the podcast at some point but it doesn't fit into this month. There'll be like probably next month somewhere. We're really good at scheduling here at the trade show. Thank you for that. I'm quite enjoying not reading it all in one go, and I'm working through it and just reading old stories down then, because not in a, like, oh my God, when I finish this, there's

nothing else from Terry Pratchett kind of way. But more in a, like, normally whenever something like new and disc or related or Pratchett related comes out, like, good, I'm in this is a good example, like, we end up broadcasting about it right away, because of the TV writing, I, like, quite often, if I consume something, I have to do it quickly because I'm turning it it right away because of the TV writing. I like quite often if I consume something, I have to do it quickly because I'm turning it into content. Yes. And it's very nice with this that I have time to read it and not immediately think about how I'm going to podcast about it.

Yeah, read it, digest it, and then we can have another look at it later. Yes. As a man. Yeah, that's a good point. That is a delightful thing. It is. I wonder how many years it'll be post-podcast before we can read a practic book normally again. I mean, for me, quite a few, because I'll have to take all the

fucking poster notes out. It's a moist, bon litvian task. Litvian task. Litvian task. Litvian task. It will be buried under a post-it night slide. I will be. I will die. But what a way to go. What else came out this week? Oh yeah, less exciting for you, but very exciting for me. MCU, The Rain of Marvel Studios, the book by Joanna Robinson and Evgenzalis and Gavin Edwards, which is the book I've been looking forward to for many, many years because they announced they were doing it towards the end of their podcast of those that they used to do about three years ago. Okay. And yeah, they finally came out on Tuesday and it is very, very good. Oh good. It's a really fascinating like insight into the film industry and the television industry and how all of these deals worked at like a really small level.

Sounds very you. Yes, it was fascinating. I did not savor that one. I almost rid it in about two sittings because it was very difficult to put down. Amazing. A book from the two of the naselope things fish, I hope is, say, James Harkin and Annette Chazinski. Harkin, no relation as far as I can tell. Just came out as well. It's about sports and interesting stuff about sports, which doesn't sound very me. Everything to play for, that's what it's called. But I think because it's by them, I will be interested and it will set us up nicely for future episodes, maybe. I hope. Yeah, quite possibly, hopefully. Yeah, no, that's the final series of Ghosts came out the thick. Yeah, I haven't had a chance to watch it yet, partly because I know I'm going to want to write about it. Also, I just, I thought it was going to be a weekly drop and it is

airing weekly, but they've also dropped it all at once on iPlayer, which I don't like. I wish they'd just air it weekly. Why? I think it gives more people time to watch it. But I think when something airs weekly, like the bigger, like, cultural conversation, whatever, or the conversation. The conversation. The discourse. A. Not the discourse, it's not a very discourse show. It's not, it gives people more time to talk about it, I think. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. But yeah, no, so I'm going to watch that at some point. I have a couple of different pieces around it planned.

Cool. The new, uh, the Frazier reboot started yesterday in the States, came out today in the UK. Mm-hmm. I watched it, all the two episodes that came out. Mm-hmm. It is a television show. I'm glad to hear it. I have even less interest in that than the Marvel Universe, though.

I thought you liked Frazier. I've never watched Frazier, it's you, you and our other friend. Oh, I thought you liked to do a role. And as far as Frazier also infirled or any of them. Shameful, France, it,, it's fine. Is it? No, it doesn't sound like it's bringing you much joy. Yes, but I'm enjoying my suffering from francing. No, that's true. You do enjoy your suffering.

Nice, but a suffering is a treat. Love a bit of suffering. No, this is going to get weird. Catholic coded. Yeah, no, it's that. It's the flag. It's just the flag. The flag. Oh, the horrors. Oh, the horrors.

Oh, I do love the horrors. I love the horrors by the seaside. And it is Halloween month. It is Halloween month. Which by the way, I noticed that this year, nobody on Twitter is changing their screen name to be something Halloweeny. Is that something to do with the change? I never did it. Is that something to do with the changes or people just sick of everything now? I think people are sick of everything, especially on Twitter. I never did it because I can't

think of anything like funny and spooky to do with my name. Well, I thought, if I, well, there's one I'm not going to do because it makes my name sound so American, which is Francine's scarrel. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, yeah, but that's how that's very American. Yeah. But then I thought, Fran, seen Carol might be quite good.

Oh, I like that. I don't know what else is doing it. So I don't know if you can change your, like, screen in one blue sky. I might go do it on blue sky if I can. Oh, that could be fun. Get it going. Yeah, no, I mean, at Christmas, I'd sometimes maybe do a two hats,

Joho Ho, but it's not much scary, you can do a Joanna. Joanna! Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, I expect everybody who couldn't think anything did what I just said. Ha, ha, ha. I can't shoehorn a pumpkin into my name without a...

Joanna Flagan. Flagan, there's two scary things. Flaying and guns, terrifying. Flaying and guns, both. I would say objectively horrifying. Oh, tightly if you said steak, no. What objectively horrifying or playing and guns, neither of those are good. Neither of those are good.

You're the one that's feeling a bit under the weather. I'm apparently the one who's just lost their mind. Yeah, no, it's fine. I'm just powering through on the wings of LEMSIP. So excellent. Well, can't LEMSIP do for us. Before I completely lose it, do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, I want to make a podcast.

Let's see if you lose it halfway Do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, I'm going to make a podcast. Let's see if you lose it half way through. Excellent. Hello and welcome to the true show, Make ye fresh a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Tony Pratchett's Disc World Series, one of Styming Chronological Order, I'm Joanna Hagen, and I'm Francine Carol. And this is part two of THUDD. No unspoilers before we crack on. This is a spoiler-like podcast. Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book THUDD, but we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series, and we're saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld novel,

The Shepherd's Ground, until we get there. So you, dear listener, can come on the journey with us. Covering mud, punching through a brick wall underground. Excellent. We don't actually recommend punching through brick walls, do listeners? I don't think I recommend anything, I say in these bits. Okay, good. I feel like sometimes it's just to be clear listeners. I think every form of an advisable transport I've covered by now. A couple of bits to follow up on. We've got a very lovely email from listener Ellie

that included wonderful bits to their doctor Tritus. So thank you for him, I love him. Also for Melly, the other part was the comment in third about a plumcake mob. I think it's referring to the plumcake slash plum pudding, atomic model where electrons are suspended in a sea of positive charts like plums and a dessert. Meaning here that the mob as a whole was still positive, Sashnon-Hostyle bar, a few openly negative slash hostile members. Oh, nice. Thank you for that. Other people on the Discord and on Reddit have suggested similar,

but I thought that was a very nice explanation. That's cool. Yeah, I think Locke's I mentioned some plum pudding conglomerate rocks, something, which was also very cool, and I like something about that, but yeah, I think the atomic positive negative one sounds pretty likely. Yeah, I feel like that was probably the reference. On real life references to CUME Valley, Zinc Stout undisgoored, there's this stunning C Coom Valley-esque painting, the Battle of Alexander It is by Albrecht Altdorffa, which Albrecht Altdorffa, very dwarfish name. Yeah, oh wow.

That is very cool. Gosh, that's incredible. Look at that. Oh yeah, love that. And Zander undiscord mentioned that the Bayer tapestry was meant to be viewed, not in the round, but in the U. It was supposed to be hung along the walls of Bayer Cathedral, so the middle could hang over the nave of the cathedral. Cool. Another book that just came out actually, Dave Admitchels, Unruly, as they say, Dave Admitchel, the comedian, written about the Kings and

Queen to England. Ah, I got the audio back of that, Dave Admitchels reading it. Yeah. And yeah, he was talking about the Bayer Taff history, some links, which I found fun. I'd recommend that by the way. Speaking of arts, actually, we were both trying to think of possible mad artists that were thrown into the mix for rascal, as I've decided he's called. I think the one I was trying to think of

was Francisco Goya. I say he did paint a lot of battle scenes but you'll probably know him from satan devouring his son, which was one of the black paintings, like one of 14 paintings, he painted directly onto the wall of his home as he was elderly and isolated and very ill. Also, I thought it was probably worth mentioning Hilda Guard. It was a Benedictine Abbas in the 1100s, I think, and she was, I'm not sure if she was a visual artist, but she was certainly a composer and a writer, and all this was on the back of Holy Visions,

and incredibly prolific, I'll link something about her as well. Yeah. The Goya painting, the Satan delivering as someone, a dressmaker, person, content creator, a fellow on TikTok and on YouTube, did an incredible, a dressmaker person, content creator, I follow on TikTok and on YouTube, did an incredible like, goya Satan's of our own son, kind of corset dress situation. Oh, awful.

If I can find that, I will link to it. Golly. Did if I don't look up Sarah Hambly, she makes some very cool. The same one who did that, so look at the corset I was talking about a few episodes about. Oh, nice. Yeah, go makes some very cool. She's the same one who did that, so look, I'm cool, so I was talking about a few episodes right. Oh, nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead, cool shit. And then right at the top of the episode,

I thought probably worth mentioning, that we do realize this is a hell of a time current events wise to be talking about this part of the book. And for that and many other reasons, we're not really gonna draw any round-world parallels to the political unrest in Nightmore Park, we're to talk more about lots of other aspects of the book of which there are many. Yes. But I'm sure you can understand this and we're really not the people to be talking about it. And so we won't. Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. Everything's

terrible. And a quick on a lighter note, one last but from follow up before we go into the book proper, Pete on Patreon suggested that Stanley might be named for Stanley Gibbons, which is like catalogs etc. for stamp collectors. Oh, I didn't know that, that's cool. Yeah. And just a line from No Website because I enjoy this as a sentence, browse our wide range of award-winning accessories including stamp albums, acid free pages, tweezers, hinges, watermark detectors, and more. And more. I do not mean to mock stamp collectors, but I find everything. How can we admit? Yeah, no, we can. It's kind of funny. Just on the level of like us with all weird fixations, it's just funny when you go into the details

of a fixation you want familiar with, hinges and tweezers. Oh, my. Oh, smart detectors. Anyway, Lama, Francine, do you want to tell us what happened last time on Thud? Certainly. Previously on Thud. I have a bit of a sore throat, so I can't shout it, sorry, listen. Thud goes the club and the underground pump and the first shoe of many. In the city beneath the city in the deep dark lies a dwarf. Greg Hancrusha stirred up the sediment of discontent, yet somehow contrives to be more

troubled dead than alive. Sam Vimes' underground investigation is hampered by dwarf in insularity, so he appoints a more acceptable alternative and heads off for a chili chat with Chrysaprace. Elsewhere, the gigantic painting of Coom Valley has been vanished. The watch contends with a vampire hire and an irritating inspector, Sam has a sore hand and Nobi Nobs has finally found the kind of love that doesn't come with a well-aimed fistful of welks. Which of these events is linked to the murder in the dark? Let's find out. I don't know why I wanted to children's present

a mode for what was really quite grim previously on, but that's what happened so much with it. I just want to just sit for the rest of my life with the phrase, a fistful of welks. How many welks? What on the fist told before we can call them a man? How many welks would a welk chuck chuck? What happened this time, Joanna? Joanna in this middle of Joanna Health. God knows. In this section, which starts on page 154 and the corgi

poke back and ends on page 32 with you've got 10 minutes. As I said last week, we flash back to Karat Sally and Angwer off on a jaunt to the underground crime scene, into the mine and Angwer sniff a clue, Karate finds a trollish sheep skull, an ardent-looking anguishous. As Angwer follows the scent to a locked door, flames ensue and unconsciousness follows. Cybled arms, sound dreams, and Karate explains the flames. Houndcrusher didn't die with Adolf's acclaiming. Mindsign abounds, and the imp has found the Dunnywagon figures. In the city, the dwarfs and trolls are Mine sign abounds and the imp has found the Dunny wagon figures.

In the city the dwarfs and trolls are squaring up for a fight and vimes plans to be in the middle. The barricades coming out and bricks in with a bad crowd, the trolls are getting rowdy. A personal wants a word and gets drawn into the specials as acting Lance Constable into the charm with trollsongs of war in the air and AE won't back down. with charmed trull songs of war in the air and A.E. won't back down. Ang was followed the oil scent to empirical crescent. She finds an old well and the unmistakable smell of Sally. In rough dwarf tunnels she finds bodies and Sally's bats. There's a sign glowing in the dark painted by a dying dwarf. After some misadventuring they climb out of the mud and into a cellar. They're below the

pink pussycat club and thankfully nobby's in attendance. It's all gone quiet at the riots thanks to excessive alcohol consumption, and Vimes needs to see Vestinari. Vimes explains nothing, but Vestinari is worried about war, the low king's throne is getting shaky. Anger and Sally Phil Carotian are Mr. Shineplays of Assistant Invises them to keep the light around the summoning dark. He delivers brick to detritus and leaves a stone egg, when Brick tells them he's a red dwarf killing a dwarf it's time to wake up Vimes. Brick tells a story, Vimes upsets detritus with his Mr. Shine questions, but there is an address in the egg. While carrot rates the mine, Vimes is off to see Mr. Shine. The city

dwarves are angry and the foreign dwarves were listening for something. Vimes find Shine at a speakeasy board game cafe and sees young dwarfs and trolls playing in harmony. Shine thinks the dwarfs found the secret of cum valley, but before they can get to a game to try to survive, the trolls are calling for war and the low kings headed down to the valley. The dark dwarfs have done a rumour and dead dwarfs have been found. When Vimes has home to read young Sam, he hears a dropped glass. Dwarfs have come in through the cellar and they're armed. With the help of Willikins and Iceknife in a stable full of dragons, the dwarfs are dealt

with and the family is going to the yard. Helm clevers in a cell alone and Carrot explains cubes. While Sally and Angua shower and make plans for a girl's night out, Vimes comes up with a rascal theory and city dwarfs offer Sam assistance and oversight from Bashfulson. Before any interrogation though, Vimes wants to learn how to play Thud. You got 10 minutes. Helicopter and loincloth watch. For loincloth, we're going something simple and cut to the thigh in a blue, which of course became stunning the moment Sally put it on. Do you know that's one of those weird lines that are stuck with me? Same. Right, I don't know why that one, that one,

that one, of course. There's a lot of stuff with Sally's character, actually, that is stuck with me. She's a bit of a fave, but that line especially. Yeah. For helicopter, I'm going with A.E. Pesimals furious attacks on the troll. Wind milling arms. Yeah. Special.

And windmills are basically helicopters that are standing a different way. As I think we've established. And I'd probably argue against it at the time, but I've softened with age. helicopters that are standing a different way. As I think we've established. And I'd probably argued against at the time, but yeah, I've softened with age. So, quickly, other bits we keep track of, the librarian is not explained, but AE does immediately clock him as specifically in a rangatang and gets a banana skin as a reward. I know, I do, I love that one.

I love that one ahead and a banana skin. Well, and just in case you were wondering where we are in the timeline, which is safest never to keep track of in a discord book, it is green fifth year of the prawn. And we've had a couple of references to 24-8 and such, which is always nice. Yes. Where are we quotes? Quotes. I think yours is first, but shall I do mine first? Because it's a lot less serious. Yes. Do you want a lawyer? No, I ate already. You eat lawyers, third carrot.

Brick gave him an empty stare until the fissioned brain had been mustard. What do you call them things? They kind of crumble when you eat them, he ventured. Carrot looked at the tritus and angler to see if there was going to be any help there. Could be lawyers, he conceded. They go soggy if you dipped in in something, said Brick as if undertaking a forensic examination. More likely to be biscuits then? Carrots are tested. Could be in a packet, we'll pay for on.

Yeah, biscuits. What I meant, said Carrots, was when we talk to you, do you want somebody to be on your side? Yes, everybody's. I just love that so much. I love that. Oh, fuck, it was just, there was so many just very funny bits of dialogue in quite a grim section.

It's fantastic. Always manages to just lighten the tone enough for exactly the right moment. Yeah. What was mine? Darken the tone again. The darkness felt like cold ink. Tendrils of it dragged at his mind and body, slowing him down, pulling him back.

You know I can't resist an Inky Tendril. It's not all that you can't resist an Inky Tendril. In fact, didn't we just have an Inky Tendril? Yeah, we did. I think. I'm not. I'm not really telling people to shut up. Yeah, that was my quote in the last episode of Going Postals. So, you know, I took an episode off from Inky Tendrils.

Such a stereotypical writer, you and your Inky Tendrils. And nothing if not cliche. I'm gonna talk about why I like that quote so much along with some other quotes later on. Yeah, yeah. For what shadowing? For shadowing. For shadowing.

What the fuck? We can't walk ourselves quite so viciously this early on. Right, so character. Character, should we start with Vimes? So either, do you know what, you put Vimes and Vettinari under the same ones here, and I think that's good idea because I think one of the huge things here is Vimes realizing who Vimes is.

Yes. And being told that at length by Vettinari. Vettinari's perspective of Vimes is one of the most spelled out ones. Sam Vimes once arrested me for treason, and Sam Vimes once arrested a dragon. Sam Vimes stopped a war between two nations by arresting two high commands. He's an arresting fellow, Sam Vimes. Sam Vimes killed a werewolf with his bare hands and carries the law with him like a lamp. Oh, a lamp?

A lamp, a light in the darkness. Right, the reason I put veterinary with vines is the only really veterinary bit we get is his conversation with vines. And I think it's more interesting in how he interacts with vines than anything about veterinary specifically, if that makes sense. Yeah, I suppose the only veterinary interest bit

is the fact that he's actually thrown off forms, but that's personal related, not anything terribly important. Yeah, you're tackled. So not many people said personal is not important, of course, but you know, in the grand scheme of the, what is it, the foundations of the earth shaking because the loathing's thrown as yeah. Who up?

I really like the exchange of what would you do if I asked you an outright question? I tell you, and an outright lie, sir. I think Vinders ability, like a lot of practice characters, to kind of see himself from the outside, even if not always perfectly, is obviously his saving grace in this section because he's watching himself nearly fuck up several times and going, no, draw that back. There's so much, especially like when he's talking to the city dwarves in the end, these intense like internal rants and stuff he has.

Obviously, the rants at the city dwarves, you rat sucking little worm eaters, you headstown little scurriers in the dark. Yeah. The thing is, in that internal run, and run and obviously he doesn't say this to the city door. So he also makes him good point. Did you dare to plow what Hamcrosher said? Hmm, yeah. I think that's what makes it so, you know, the rage inside him so insidious is that it's not just this mad scream as it is when he's running up the stairs. Most of the time it is scream as it is when he's running up the stairs. Most of the time it is a well reason to an extent, you know, not irrational, but an understandable response to incredible trauma.

It's a disproportionate response to something that deserved some form of response. Yes. Yes. The moment when he runs up the stairs, the terrible fury choked him, the rage and dreadful fear. They climbed forever while he was falling backwards into hell, but hell buoyed him, up gave wings to his rage, lifted him and sent him back. And this is in a scene where, which is probably some of the most dubious things he does, like all of those dwarves do die. Yeah, is that dubious? Maybe not, but it is definitely a kind of... He doesn't kill any of them. No.

But he is very present. He doesn't... Willikins is never going to be... have any kind of retribution for defending himself with a nice knife. One of them does literally get melted. Do you not... Right. But no, no, I'm standing up for Vime's here.

I don't think he'd done anything dubious in this, that I don't think there's anything disproportionate about any of it. Maybe I don't mean his actions are disproportionate. I mean, where he is mentally, he would absolutely be willing to kill all of these doors with his bare hands. Whereas later in the book, he is reminding himself, you know, when I catch up to them, no, it will be fair. True, but I think it's definitely different in the book he is reminding himself, you know, when I catch up to them,

no, it will be fair. True, but I think it's definitely different in the moment if he's stopping the murdering his family. Yeah, true, which is what he was trying to do. Then it is to, yes, as he say, hunt them down and then murder them. I don't think it's unfair. I don't think it's bad. I think of the stuff we see that sea vines do. It's the closest we can't to see him actively killing someone without some kind of due process of the law involved. Yeah, well, we never get to see that last moment, do we? Like we did with in men at arms, and he nearly did, didn't he? Yeah, and he had the conversation with the Gorkin, yeah. But yes, I think the added motivations that the years have given him. Yeah, change the, and you know, the fucking dark forces, etc. I don't want to talk about more.

The conversation he has with Helm Clever, where Helm Clever is talking about being there, oh, the conversation he has with the Bachelorson where Helm Clever is talking about being there, the conversation he has with the bashful son about bashful son being there when he talks to Helm Clever. And he acknowledges that he could probably, it wouldn't be a bad thing for him to have the oversight. And he's someone else needs to watch the watchman with him. Yeah. And he's thinking about the, you know, people getting beaten up with little rooms and there's that if you did it for a good reason, you do it for a bad one, it runs with his priorities for getting home at six o'clock every day.

Yeah, exactly, yeah. Similarly, when he corrects himself about what happens when he captures them, or when, yeah. Yeah. And then, civil, civil,

lady civil, she doesn't get as much to do as, but she, she does get more to doing this than she did in like light watch, especially. And you know, I'm just very happy, whenever she's there, she's fully aware that he's going to go out and be on the barricades, so she's packed him and dinner. The dining socks, because she picked up at the idea that it was a wifely duty, and so she did it much like when she was knitting in jingo Yes, but hopefully she'll find something else But the description of her when she's in the dragon shed and the dwarf comes in and she very calmly, you know sort of says right

Let's get down and She's described as a species of woman who when duty called turned into solid steel. Yeah, and I think it's really beautifully written that we get that and we see her doing it just that and then you get to see her have like a lip bubble. What's the same as in the fifth elephant, right? Yeah, where she's incredibly stoic,

right up until she isn't in the in and soundbimes notices that she'd start to crying. You're like, oh fuck. Yeah, but do something about my normally, normally, invincible wife's emotions. What do I do when they have emotions again, Jesus? Also had one of the lines that made me bust out laughing, which was when Willikin says that the the shrubbery, a couple of doors down on fire and civil says, well, if they're not ready for that sort of thing, they shouldn't be growing roded endrons. What?

Everyone knows flammable roded endrons. It's a risk. Yeah. That's why why I don't grow them first and they. That is exactly why I don't grow roded endrons. I'm not sure what a roded endron is. Just in case my butler let us off a flamethrower in the tunnels underneath the house. In your wine cellar. In my wine cellar. So, A.E. personal who I love so deeply. Oh such a such a beautiful character arc

in such a short time. It is, it's a small part of it and it's really thoroughly done. Vimes is kind of mean to him in that scene, you know, piling him up with that armor and they're all kind of whining him up, but he does, you know, he always plans on leaving him out of the actual danger and then he stands up and says, there's no place I'd rather be now than here and no time I'd be rather here than now. Yeah. And Vimes says, I don't think I'd rather be now than here and no time I'd be rather here than now. Yeah. And Vyn says, I didn't think you'd take it seriously. And personal response includes, I am a serious man.

I was like, oh, that's great. I love this. I was like, he cannot take it. Like, it's not he cannot take a joke so much as he does not recognize the joke. Yes. And the great moment when to try to yell something in trollege and then find sort of makes a joke about it being in their language and shout, come on if you think you're hard enough. That's it, that's it. I was thinking how much I love, like come and have a go if you think you're

hard enough has such a specific cadence. There was a brief conversation about it in the discord of like how common is that and people talking about, you know, it's a it's a football, shouty type thing among other stuff and how the English are weirdly good at coming out with something quite lyrical quite quickly. You know, there's a scandal involving a member of a football team, then the rival team will within a week have like a perfect three-part harmony song about it. Yeah, yeah. The support is a little bit of a tune of an 80s hit. Yeah. And yeah, someone said it was probably because we all grew up having to sing in assembly at school. Yes, do other countries not do that? I don't know. Not to the extent that we do in primary school. Oh, well. And yeah, he cries.

He cries when Vimes hires him and he earns Mr Vimes all in one go. I know. It's so sweet. And he's so scared to ask and Vimes says it and just his response that he closed his eyes and said, how did you know, just that moment of relief and great fullness and just that is the response that's a small response but perfectly imagined I think. Yeah, it's I love Mr. Festival. I love Mr. Festival and yeah, Vesonari's response. Very clean shoes. Yeah, that guy. Yeah, you're sure. Yeah.

Yeah, that takes to the the constables, which we meet some. Oh, yeah. These men who could become a copper in times of dire need. I don't know. I meant to have a look as to how much like historical parallel there is here. I didn't have time in the end. So listen, as answers on illegal weapons, let me know. Answer's on a num-chuck. Or num's on it, Numb Shug. Yeah.

Or Numb Knutters, they're called in this. I mean, the librarian being one has narrative traction. He gets sworn in in an early book. Yes, he does, yeah. I can't remember which one now, but he definitely does. Yeah, absolutely does. I think it was Manitant. Yeah, I think so.

No way, no guards guards. Oh, God, it was that early. Yeah, he's been a special for a while. Oh, yeah. He's a seasoned copper. Andy Hancock, who also has a job down at the clacks, and he's the one who gets really into it. They bought their own gear and it was always better

than watch issue. And we've all met people who are a bit like that, I think. Not necessarily when it comes to being a special consumable of the watch, but you know. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, Nobby's a little bit like that, you know, he's not allowed. But he does like his weapons if he's allowed near them. He does. And one of the antagonists of Man of Thames, I think, was a little like that, wasn't he?

Yeah, a little bit over enthusiastic. And yeah, Mr. Bogus of the Themes, Cleaves Guild is apparently a special constable. And why not, I suppose? I have noticed there's less guild presence in like the kind of more modern like more port boats compared to say something like men at arms, or even feasts of clay. Well, feasts of clay is obviously very heavy guild stuff because you've got all of the heraldry bits in it. Do we think that's because everything's ticking along nicely in the background because they've got reduced power because Venaris increased his or? I don't think they've got reduced power but I do think they're running comfortably enough that there doesn't need to be a lot of

guild stuff. I like having Mr Bogus there just because it's a very funny moment. It is yeah. Oh and the whole thing about him not being separated from his hat, we always like an important hat on this podcast. We are a big fan of important hats. His bringing his bodyguards out for some fresh air. He brought your bodyguards with you if you're a voluntary police rel. Yes.

And all of his jokes, I don't know if it's voluntary, but yeah. Watch out for them little bantam fighters, vines, vines took personal away before a bogus could fall over from the overacting. Beautiful. Speaking of weirdly well-armed characters, we're looking, so he was also a special constable. And gets quite rightly.

Yeah, he gets to do one of my favorite little comedy things when he's talking to AE during the thing, which is the third person, sir. Hmm. Yeah, now that Sarah's with a social, the mystery, and it's just melt away, has served any chance on Sarah on one with a troll before. I missed that. Amazing. It's incredibly jeez, I wish through this apart from when he's making actively homicidal. One tiny thing I noticed, and I'm not sure if it was on purpose or not, but I wanted to mention it, was when he's talking to vines after the first act of the horrors. Yeah. He says, one must have got past me in the dark, and I'm pretty sure that's the only time he uses contraction. And it was when he's very stressed. He talks a lot

more normally during that scene. Almost slipping back into his sham like a street. Yeah. Vocalizations. Yeah. In mitigation, man, the blood is not mine. But yeah, how we deals with the dwarves, with a nice knife and a flamethrower is almost kind of chilling. Like, just when is that a pun? Oh God, no, it wasn't. I'm sorry. Take it back.

No, I like the puns. But yes, it's efficient, I would say. Yeah, no, I mean, he does his job well. And again, I know it is rather graphic, but it's hard, it's hard to argue. You did anything wrong, really. No, somebody comes up behind you with a flamethrower and you're holding a long ice knife. What are you gonna do?

Or can certainly plausibly say you were and he didn't lodge the dwarf on the hook. I mean, lodged in there by his quotes. I do wonder, actually, if the long acting poison thing is a way of slightly mitigating the Wilikins violence in the eyes of the reader. Yeah, and they would have all died anyway. Yeah.

I did miss. It was green mouth, is that normal? So there is something I forgot to mention as well, but the moment when Vimes here is the glass break and it's so well-racing because the reader really goes on that very quick pulse skyrocketing moment with vimes because you had a glass break someone must have dropped something. No one would drop something. Yes, yes. Oh, yes. Willikins very well trusted. Yeah.

I trust Willikins. Like honestly. This is the sound vines wrenched off the wall as a weapon. No, he wrenched a hobby. He had a hobby horse as a weapon. A hobby horse. Quite right. Yes, yes, sorry.

I love a hobby horse. He's still a lot more hobby horse. Anyway, Sally, sorry. I love a hobby horse. You still love a hobby horse. Anyway, Sally. Sally. It vines as suspicious about and does something strictly, not strictly legal with the clacks about. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Not sure what that is. Well, I am a rather bit. We're, we're, we as a podcast, the true show might effect is not sure what that is. We can't talk about the podcast as a separate entity because on the one hand, yes, it is journalistic. On the other hand, we're talking about

Discworld. It might manifest. I was thinking it just might be a nice change of existential crisis, you know. Okay, but if the podcast manifests into a sentient horror, I'm not taking it for walks. Alright, fine. I'll fine. I'll stop messing around with third persons. Thank you. You use third person Sarah and that's it. I really like how the conflict between Sally and Angoa about Carrot kind of gets handled. A, because you know when they're having the kind of almost document in the well and Sally turns around and says, we're both wearing nothing, we're standing on what you may have noticed is increasingly turning into mud and we're squaring up to fight. But we're missing a paying audience. We can make a fortune.

Yes. Yes. I like the like-heartedness, but I also like her, like this could have been a story about Anguah being insecure about her relationship because there's the school just Poise vampire right there, but it's not, it's, it's Sally saying, you know, he know he he loves you like it doesn't matter if I think he looks like a god like I'm not in the way of that yeah no it's more plausible isn't it it's not like it could have been like a no I don't fancy character at all turns out uh but it's uh obviously everybody fancies character the many descriptions of him glistening, but I can literally hear that he likes you, so I'm not going to, it's fine, just worry about it. And yeah, it's a bit frustrating that she is always the reasonable one when Ang was there, but that is very consistent with what's going on. It's frustrating and narratively coherent way.

But I like the, maybe not friendship, but their relationship, whatever it is. It can, camaraderie, evolving camaraderie, let's call it that. Yeah, I think there's just something quite charming about the two of them. There's a moment where Sally counts all of the heartbeats and anger sort of, I wish you wouldn't it that. Yeah, I think there's just something quite charming about the two of them. There's like, there's a moment where Sally counts all of the heartbeats and anger sort of can't, I wish you wouldn't do that.

It's fine that you can do it. It's eye-personally uncrackable of cracking your man's skull in my jaws, but I don't go around telling everyone. Right, yes, point taken. More meekly than she possibly meant. And of course she can walk in six inch heels, but of course she can. Yeah. And even that just tiny bit of, she's got a size four and half feet.

Yeah. Like again, I've said this before, but not recently enough. Terry Fracti talked to women. Yeah. And listen to what they said, because there aren't many male authors that write female conflict. It's, and I would go so far as saying almost stereotypical female conflict, but stereotypical only because we're familiar with it, not because it's always shoved in our face in this way. Yeah. I think it's very well done.

Like it takes, it's, I said a few times, especially when I was in the early books, I was talking about characters like the Wemberg woman and her right now. Is it parody if you're just doing the thing? But I think here it is because it's doing the thing so well, it kind of, it does fall into the parody in a not exhausting to read way. Yeah, yeah. And when it is doing the thing, it's not lingering on the male gazey bits of it. It is anger and Sally humorously mentioning that would be a male gaysy aspect of it. Yeah. And also they smell horrendous and will punch through a brick wall to get hold of some shampoo. Exactly. It's very knowing. I also, I really like it. Yeah, it's nice. I like when Angra storms in and gets wolf whizzled out and someone feels like points on his neck and then realizes it's the stilettos. Yeah, that's a beautiful little moment.

Well done those two. Speaking of shiny things, that would have worked better if I'd mentioned the Dock Shampoo. Yeah, we've got Mr. Shane, him diamond. Him diamond. Can I just say, I'm going to bitch about that, that annotation that I saw on one of the fan sites that said, oh, this reference is a, and I've forgotten the name of it now, American brand of Polish, or possibly because Fractured is British, the Mr Sheen brand of Polish, I was like, how fucking arrogant do you want to be? Obviously it's the British one that sounds like it. Not your random ass American Polish. Come on.

I'm gonna just as we're doing it, I'm gonna take this opportunity to bitch about an annotation on one of the fan sites. Oh, good. Which is a quote I'll talk about more later, but it talks about all the things you could use magic for and how it could go long. And one of the things is turning people into ferrets.

And a fan site annotated it saying this is a reference to Harry Potter where professor something turns someone into a ferret it's like I'm pretty sure it wasn't a fucking Harry Potter reference yeah now probably not right yeah yeah yeah i'm with mr. Sheena which confuses me because i've got a friend with that surname we often jokinglyly call Mr. Sheen. And a celebrity crush? Oh yeah, Michael Sheen. So do I, suddenly, talking like a 2006 Miz-Ber celebrity crush? Who's your celebrity crush?

Anyway, get a poster with little drawn hearts. What of Mr. Sheen, him diamond? Yes. And Michael Sheen. It just occurred to me that, like, those TikTok edits where people do little hearts and stuff is, like, the modern day equivalent of drawing hearts on a poster. Absolutely, yes Michael's. It just occurred to me that like those TikTok edits where people do little hearts and stuff is like the modern day equivalent of drawing hearts on a poster. Absolutely, yes, yeah. Anyway, Mr. Shine makes a mysterious appearance in the watch house,

and then asks the no one follow-up out so he can keep up the mystery after he leaves, which I like. Yes, very polite way of being a mysterious figure. He's a very polite mystery, isn't he? He is. being a mysterious figure. He's a very polite mystery, isn't he? And, yeah, he's revealed to be the rightful and indisputable king of the trolls. Yeah, no wondering about who sired who or whether it matters if you're a the daughter of a uncle of a whatever, you are literally made of diamond. Yeah. You are king. Okay. Hard to argue with that.

Absolutely not. And he's hard enough. Yeah. Come and have a go with. Yeah. And you're adding. Um, Sorry.

And he takes in brick and he's looked after brick and he gives brick to the triters. And brick, there were some very sweet brick moments. Fucking love it. He managed to huddle all alone. You usually need two to huddle, but it was a troll time to hide behind himself. Oh, and when he's sitting there eating like his

met multiple bowls of gruel, doesn't that give you nobby nob vibes from night watch? Oh, yeah, when he was little boy eating all this gruel, doesn't that give you nobby nob vibes from Nightwatch? Oh yeah. When he was little boy eating all these gruel. Very much. Except Brick's not going to steal the spoon. Probably not. Not on purpose.

When they're talking about, you know, why he hasn't managed to stay off the drugs, Brick waved a pair of scarred, nobby arms and a gesture that said, far more coherently than he could, that there was the whole universe on one side and Brick on the other and what could anyone do with odds like that? No. And then it's just so wonderfully, says, and now to try to sus on his side, is that even the odds of it? Mmm. And that's the most touching way we've ever heard of to try to as referred to as really

a supernatural fucking powerhouse and that god damn crossbow. And he forms this like immediate attachment to break, this come on, I can make something of this. He's so paternal. He is. And if you think back to like the first times we saw him and you know, sound vibes actually, their reminisces about it doesn't he?

He said he was chained up like an attack dog. Yeah. Also just a little bit of this, doesn't quite relate, but I love one of detritus' descriptions of behind Pesemoll, the tritis grinned, the torchlight turning his diamond teeth into rubies. Oh, that's such a good moment.

Isn't that very Jack from coded, I would say? Oh, very Jack from coded, yeah. Yeah. And then his reaction when Vimes isn't taking this on Mr. Shine thing seriously. Mmm, this, you know, with the doors, you have pussy feet, muscle up, set them, what would you do if there were trolls, kick the door down, no problem? Mm-hmm. And yeah, it's this thing that has never occurred to Vimes

before the trolls have as many important beliefs as the dwarves do. Absolutely. And Vimes realises what's happening and takes the conscious step to dissipate the tension, which is another like a project theme we love love of it's heightened, it's heightened, it's heightened, and then gently releasing the tension is as dramatic or as effective as like a... Yeah, very much so.

Yeah, yeah, it's... Yeah, because the... You apologize, you said, I apologize. There is lots of stuff I don't know, apparently. Yeah, and to try to just get in the sort of one last shot when Vines said, do I need to know something before seeing Mr. Shine and to try to just get in the sort of one last shot when Vyn said, do I need to know something before seeing Mr. Shine and to try to say, so there's thinking you could leave behind. Well, there's also just in that whole interaction with the

triters kind of losing a shit of it. He says, I hear Carrot say that he's the two brothers. We know about that horrible lie, which is continuing this thread that starts with the tack wrote stuff and the very opening and this kind of idea of dwarf lore as propaganda. Yeah, but from the point of view of the people who were being propagandized against. Yes, which you don't often get to see. No, I won't come to an ancient see. No. But when it comes to like an ancient religious thing, especially, it'll be interesting to talk about the taste of it.

Yeah. Yeah. And then lastly, we have a bashful bashful son. Greg bashful son. Hell of a name. It's so good that I know just good as myitally oats, let's be honest, when it comes to our religious faves. But I don't think anything will really beat my teleotes.

No, no. However, big fan of Brad Bachelors, then. Yeah. Who is a not a deep down, Greg, who thinks that darkness is a state of mind, not a depth. He's modern, he's got a trimmed beard and a disquieting little smile. I see, I'd really like his character,

but just based off that description, he sounds like one of those pre-suwa short sleeves and bringing a guitar. Yeah, it's not thinking. But, you know, they do a lot of good for the judge, you know, so they do a lot of good for the judge, probably, better than the fire and brimstone, finding a guitar fairly. You say that, but fire and brimstone on a guitar, like, there's a reason heavy metal's popular for unsee. That's true, that does usually approach things from a different direction. Yeah, it does seem to go sort of... I love when I make really specific gestures in

this audio format. Yeah, yeah, it's very specific gesture, listen, so listen, as you're not missing anything. That's much worse than it is. So yeah, we'll talk about bashful some more next week. Yes. Locations. Imperfect. Like, present. Yeah, we've got one of our favourite architect's creations.

Yeah, but yes, Johnson's, Bashet Geometry Housing Estate. Yeah, it has vibes of the old wizard district, doesn't it? Yeah, the unreal estate. That's it, yeah. I assume they're probably at some point link up with each other via the back door of number 15. Yes, but you will come out with more limbs than you went in with, so. Could be an advantage.

Could be, could be. You never thought, oh, maybe a spare limb, common handy in this very specific situation. Oh, what if it's only comes back for it? Anyway. The well. The well. There's a well with a covered in stuff. Covered in stuff because you just throw it in your back garden because it might not be

yours. Yeah. And just a very confusing place to be around. And it's nice how, not lovingly, carefully it was described considering it is an incidental. It is. It's an incidental spot that gets a half-page footnote. The front door of number one opened into the back bedroom of number 15 and the ground floor window of number three showed the view appropriate to the second floor of number nine. And smoke from the dining room fireplace of number two came out the chimney of number 19.

That seems fine. Yeah. That sounds good. See, that's kind of handy though, because then like, do you have to clean your chimney or does number 19 have to clean it? Because if you can just have a fire, but you don't have to clean the chimney like... Well, you'd think that would be a pertinent question, but we actually lost the first three chimney sweeps we sent up there and nobody will come anymore. So we just have a dirty chimney.

Yeah, that's fair. We've all been there. And pointer and pickles. Yes, our little board game club slash rock shop. Rock shop definitely not crystal healing shop. I love the do you believe in the healing barocry of crystals? No, good. Would you like a rock? I mean, I got a geologist to take rock seriously. I wonder how the fucking business card, by the way, a geode? Yeah. I'm just not dramatically leaving geodes places. Yeah, how do you think they got the note in? Can we do this for the podcast? Can't you get those kids like grater and geode kids?

Yeah, but I don't think it then turns into a rock. cement? All right, we'll come back to this later. Yeah, okay. It sounds like a five-minute craft's idea and that's not a good thing. That's not do that. This idea of point-through and pickles and the two people in one body, I like there's absolutely no deep dive or explanation into how it works because we know how stuff like that works on the disc at this point. We've seen it. It feels like a character that's come straight out of one of the witch's books. Not that it feels out of place here.

It just also really would feel at home in Lankar. Yeah, I think she may well have migrated. Quite possibly. And there has been the odd city which is there not. Little bits we liked. What did you like, Francine? I like the weather. I like the weather. I like the weather. I occasionally talk about

ratcheting weather. I've been mentioned occasionally. And we mentioned last week that a lot of the watchbooks are very dark and rainy and this one is no exception. And the rain is mentioned with, I would say, increasing frequency as we move along, which will build up to something I imagine. And yeah, just the kind of the description gives us a rain, very evocative, a fine invasive rain, you know, the kind that does not seem very heavy. And yet you're very, very wet by the underlet. The rain, the fine rain fell in the mists, rows, and the torches flickered and rain rustled out of the sky, not hard, but with a gentle persistence, and hissed on the white ash of the bonfires, occasionally exposing the orange glow, which would briefly sizzle and spit.

And that fear is very evocative to the whole watch series to me, is, you know, the dark cobblestones and splashes of orange light and rain. So devices? The devices with a capital D. Device with a capital D. How much have I mentioned they have these devices in the mind? They have an axle and they have an average bar and there's all capitalised and carrot is clearly had it in the before but it's a new concept for us in the disc world. And I know I think it's interesting. I really like the explanation of the cubes, especially as it's like a book, it talks, which sets the idea of the cube as word-based, as a record of words, which would imply that destruction of it is somehow profane.

And it just, the idea that it was embedded and grind it. Yeah, and that there are these things that even the dwarves don't know how they work. And they're a little bit, if they were being used differently, they'd be a bit Deus Ex-Mac and Arish, but they're not, they're just used very functionally. And if they didn't have the devices, they'd probably have worked out another way of doing everything. Mac and Ex Terra? Something like that. We're not allowed to do Latin for a reason, Francine. Well, look, Pratchett didn't let it stuff him. But yeah, I think

they're interesting. I like them as a new... I like Forgotten Ancient Technologies and this one goes even further than that. It's mixed up in the bones of the planet somehow, maybe. Yeah. God crimes. God crimes. Yeah, I just like the idea of gods and you know the ancient Greek fantheon would do it, going to the police with their petty complaints. Oh yeah.

Someone's pinched the secret of fire. Have you seen my gold napple? It's amazing how often we don't see that sort of thing in the crime book sometimes. And I think Zeus would be constantly in jail. Yeah, no, Zeus should be constantly in jail. I think we can all agree that Zeus should be in jail. Hornie jail. Hornie jail for Zeus. Hornie jail for Pratchett writing aboutot in this book. I said to you off-broadcast, so much horner than anything written about like Angra and Sally naked and covered in mud

together. I kind of forgot how much carrot we got in this book. Yeah. I think we get more character development from Angua, but it's nice to see Carrot just doing this thing, just being good at his job. Just being aggressively competent and often, and listening. And listening. Yeah. Competent and glistening. I like my men, I like my coffee.

Speaking of coffee. There's a couple of very nice judicious applications of coffee for Vime, so it's not getting enough sleep. Yeah. Reading this book makes me like, you know when you're that particular flavor of tired, where you're stressed and hysterical? Yeah. Just reading this book makes me like that because I can feel it happening to vines.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Give vines a nap. Absolutely. The question about the quite about coffee. Stealing time that should be by rights belong to your slightly older self. That's it. That's a bit dangerously relatable. Yet to me, it doesn't exist yet. And there's a lovely treatise on Fred Kohl and saying,

if not knowing if it's our soul or breakfast time, which I don't think originated with this book, but I think originated in my personal lexicon with this book. And I use it more often than I think I realize I use it, and also forget that it's not like a particularly common phrase these days. I know, I don't think I've heard anyone who is in the practice, say it, that I can recall. No, but I've often referred to it especially when I was working in kitchens as people not knowing if it was our soul or breakfast time. Vimes is quite a satan, he knows the difference because only one is likely to involve coffee. It's always good to have a solid reference for these things. Now you've been known to get emotional about coffee, haven't you, Francine?

Anything else you feel? It's a terrible thing to accuse me of, yes. So, onto the slightly bigger things, I was particularly impressed by practice depiction of emotion in this book and in this section particularly, although we'll have lots more of it next week. I feel like writing sound binds as anger, especially as becoming art form. Yeah, especially now that we have young Sam to add real fear into the mix and not just like fear of whatever's chasing you, fear of, you know, fear of that being four of you

and there's a dragon trying to melt you. Yeah, this is from the last section that one evening a son had turned and looked directly at vines and fear had poured into Soundfimes' life in a terrible wave. Somewhere a big dark wave was cresting and when it broke over it's headed would wash everything away. Some days he was sure he could hear it's distant raw. Yeah and I think fear really makes anger solid. Yeah absolutely. That is definitely happening with divine. In this section, particularly, the part of the book, I'd say probably two parts of this book really stand out

in my mind in memory. And one of them is him running up the stairs as he sees one of the dwarves disappear into the nursery. And the scream of I'll kill you, I'll kill you, I'll kill you, I'll kill you, I'll kill you. Exactly, and then just eventually turning into wordless. And that really is fear more than anger, perhaps. Yeah, but with the real, if I catch you, I will kill you.

And then the relief, just the relief he feels as he gets there. He picked up his son wrapped in his blue blanket and sagged his knees. He hadn't drawn brussel work stairs now his body cached its checks sucking in air and redemption and huge racking sobs. And who we had, sand vines cry like that before? I don't think so. We've definitely had an emotional by think every time we see an emotional off to theoretically cry has been before we got off the booze. And it's just like because we can get such a full perspective from Vimes as well, I think we get to, more so than like most fun that we were talking about last month where

he hides a little bit from us, even though it's from his perspective. Yeah. A little bit like that with Vimes, like what he did to the Raleigh's, but mainly you get the full thing. And we get to look back with him at what he's just experienced and felt, especially as the anger is a separate entity almost this time written very differently. And so when he's looking back, like immediately at the fear and the rage he's just felt, it had been hard, hard to go into that nursery in the face of the images that thronged his imagination. He was not going to go through that ever again. And the rage had been so strong, he had felt he might grow spikes or snap into shards. All of this immediate reflection on what's just happened to him, I think, is really interesting

and kind of adds another layer to it that you can't get. We could get, but it would make the initial description too long and not as effective. Yeah. it builds up like through out the course of the book. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then finally turning the rage and the fear into a very different kind of cold dread and horror when what he had been so angry and afraid about has happened somebody else, they killed Mike Sun, said Ironcrust, a knife dropped into Vimes's head. It slipped down his windpipe, sliced his heart, cut through his stomach and disappeared, where the rage had been. That was a chill. Everything about that moment with Ironcrust, that absolutely cold fury because he's gone past the point of anger that Sam's was out, and now he's at the Yanga where it is done.

because he's gone past the point of anger that Sam's was out, and now he's at the Yanga where it is done. And the worst has happened. Yeah. And the fear has gone, the Yanga has very much remained and solidified into something cold and solid. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And luckily Vines is watching the Watchmanness

is sturdy enough that he Doesn't promise to kill and when he catches them, but he probably will catch them. Yeah, he promises justice Not murder. Yes Yes, when you think about Fract it started out as a good writer obviously we enjoyed the first couple books, but these kind of passages You would have never thought would have come out of a fancy festie. No, like genuinely some of the best depictions of a motion I've ever read. Absolutely, yeah. And they are in ostensibly a comedy book and there are obviously extremely funny moments in this book, but I'd say these are the ones that stick with you. Yeah, these are the absolutely stunning, like, cold moments. And every other book has, like, built up to getting to this point

where you can do this with vines. Hmm. Yeah. Well, you've meant you'd sort of, you'd kind of call wax within this section, honey. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in which it's sort of, it's really in conversation with prior disc gold. And I think it highlights the stuff it's linked to in a way that shows like where it's going and how different, how different A-Vime story can be. And some of it's like little things like one of the, they're talking about all

the different battles that have been referred to as Coom Valley and one of them took place in villainous past, which is where there's this big fight in Fifth Elephant. Oh, there's a throw away joke, wonderful. It's been a long time since this city's been burned to the ground, and of course we see it burn to the ground in colour and magic. There's the more obvious stuff, obviously, you know, it was better when then we're just four of us against that bloody dragon. There's stuff about not using magic that, you know,

should we follow where magic leads us, waiver one to find out who's guilty, magic man good, magic's a little bit live, a bit tricky when you think you've got to buy the throw, it's by use to you and the arse, which literally just last month we're going postal, magic would present its bill, which was somehow more than you can afford. Yeah, it carries that theme through, almost word for word. On the barricades, as you'll see this night watch relationship, like directly recalled Fred says to Vimes, you know,

do you remember Sergeant Keal who pulled off a few tricks that night? Yeah. You're gonna pull off any tricks? Yeah, the naked hope. The very naked hope. I know Sam Vimes, he's not gonna let us be absolutely minced here, is he? No. What's clearlyly fine.

It's perfectly done though. You know, you talk about all the Discworld books stand alone. I don't think that is written in such a way that it would make zero sense of young red night watch. You just think, oh yeah, they've experienced something before. Yeah, no, definitely. Are you talking about a... I think some of it might be a bit confusing, but not on a way you'd linger on it.

Yeah, and Vines is thinking about the barricades too. They're little black and yellow things. These aren't Barricades too anyone who's been behind a real one, built of rubbish, furniture, barrels, and fear, and bowel-notting defiance. Yeah. Just also quickly in that Barricade, Zee and Vimes mentions giving a speech to everyone,

and says, you know, stiffen this in use, which is a reference to the St. Chris Wednesday speech, and it's been referenced quite a lot throughout the disc world. The, um, all close up the walls with our English dead, to that one. Hmm. Charlie. Whereas there's a nice little set up and pay off within the section.

It's, uh, when they're in the muddy tunnels, Sally's splash past something that looked like a huge copper trumpet. And then it's paid off with the doors for listening for something in the tunnels and Sally saw it. Yeah. Yeah. We see Sally go past it, we don't see Sally see it. Why did I put myself in this position of saying this? She sells seashells. She sees trumpets now, doesn't like them, might. Yeah. And it uses this technique we saw in going postal as well of cutting away from events. So we cut away from the riot that wasn't and we come back after it's over with finds injured. Because we don't need to see the thing itself. It's better to hear about it the third person.

Yeah, absolutely. The police report of the fight with brick. It's more interesting than I mean, who's perspective would you put it from? You need the omnifit and narrator so that bit to make it makes. Although we see some of it from bricks perspective specifically, which I think is a really good switch in the middle of that. Yeah, I'm kind of a little known biting his ankle. I think one of the things that's most interesting is how much this has in conversation with the previous discreet books. When Vimes and Betonari have that conversation, Vimes realises you're worried, your chair

is wobbling too in reference to the shakiness of the loquings thrown. Yeah. Because, you know, if this escalates, people are going to turn around and say, who let all these dwarfs and trolls in? What's it done to the city? That's been the central plot of plenty of Discworld books, who let all these dwarfs and trolls in? Festinari's chair gets shaky. People try and take them out. It was the plot of the first three guards books, it was the plot of the truth. And alongside that you have this idea of Mr. Shine and what he represents, it's not just that he's a king that because he gives the trolls something to unite around. It makes war more likely.

In the same way that the dwarves have the Grags. Yeah, or a similar way. Similar but not because he's not preaching, he doesn't want war, it's just this thing that happens, a king appears, then you have something to unite around, now you're an organised front, now you can try for war. It's a catalyst. If you think back to God's guards and the whole city, getting excited over having a king, and uniting around it and going into that group think of, because the king is the fucking dragon and wants to eat someone and they unite in this group think of

well it's fine because the king said so. Yes, yeah. And it's kind of like this pre-determined and story thing as well. It was talked about, isn't it? When the king appears, then like this is a big story, isn't it? Yes, it's a live story. And yeah. And I think it's really important how much this book goes back to the other ones because then everything it does that it does well and it goes really deep into feels so exciting and how it's done because it's so much more than the sum of its parts and more came before. Not that I'm saying this is like the best but disc world book so far, just that it builds up to this stuff really well. It takes this theme of dark especially, but dark and light that's come through all of

the disc world books. Yeah, genuinely all of them. It literally makes it tangible. So you have those darkness moments. We have the quote I talked about, this darkness of cold, the cold tendrils of ink, because we have to have our inky tendrils. Love an inky tendril. This insight into Sam's mind were getting fired this thing.

It was still nighttime in the city of endless rain. It was never not nighttime, no sun rose here. And these ideas of shades of darkness, so thick you had to push your way through it, and it makes horses skittish. And nights that were light and silver, even though there was no moon, and you light only ruined your vision on those nights, so you stared into the dark until it blinked, you stared it down. And that takes us into this more tangible idea of the dark, the mind sign. Yes, these entities, this is quite a hog father, Colwacky, that long back story about the tooth fairy, you get right at the end of hog father, we start off in the dark.

Yeah, and it coalesced. Yeah, yeah, except, yeah, these are coalesced in a very different way. In a very different way. The idea of this following dark sign is repent-y sinners. The fact that the symbol for the mind is a circle with a horizontal line across, I forgot to mention last week's reference to the underground. Oh, yeah, I just didn't occur to you. And then the dark. Yeah, so the following dark is the one with the two lines. Yeah, and the summoning dark is our little tail eye fella. Tail eyeball. And it would be moving. And it's drawn ellips lipstick on a strip club drinks menu and it's surrounded by candles for when night came.

Um, which embroidered onto my denim jacket? Now starting to think that was unwise. Just don't keep it in the dark. It's currently in the corridor wouldn't I, it's on. Alright, well if you start getting weirdly angry, I will probably just to shim your hormonal, because I'm horribly misogynistic. That's fair, that's fair.

That's all dark entity. Yeah, okay, cool. But we'll check the way you were on the cycle before we start trying to spell the dark entity. I've got my cycle tracking app, and I've got my provoking ethereal evil beings tracking app. Okay, good. I have got both. Yeah, yeah, obviously. Excellent. Having the candles around this symbol of dark brings us into this idea of light and dark in playing with each other in this book,

which I think we talk about, you know, this book is grim, this book is dark. This book puts light into all of those dark places. There was the line you mentioned to try to us, the torchlight turning his diamond teeth into rubies. This one of these rare shining things in this very dark time and place, this terrifying, the brown streak between the mobs. And everything to do with the worms, the stuff you were talking about last week with the way a lot of this gets talked about and the way the dark gets talked about. When Angroa finds the body is the side ear of the dwarfs would dissolve in light.

Yeah, the light comes to claim, claim the end instead of the dark. Yeah, one of the phrases used in that verb was the dwindling dark, which was another nice little reverse saying. Yeah, and I think all of the way this uses the light as the horrifying thing in the mind almost because the dark is the normal things. If there is the light, there is the worms, they aren't exactly a good sign. Yeah. I wouldn't say they're an omen, but you know, they don't turn up for great reasons necessarily.

No, and it's kind of unsettling when they stay on that sign, there's a feast worth dying for. The verns that made the sign remained because such a feast as this was worth dying for, they glow winked out one insect at a time. The darkness beneath the world caressed the sign which flamed red and died. Darkness remained. So really fucking good bit. As well as the actual realization of exactly what happened that War II who wrote the sign in his own blood and scratched at the door and it's really horrifying and you think about the fact that this takes place in this ethereal light in a place that would normally be dark. And the light is so unnatural and by the end of this section we've found, it's been mentioned

that Helm Clever was found surrounded by candles, isn't it? Yeah, and I think to not be have candles around him. And that's so unnatural for a dwarf. And the grags as well in the first section surrounding themselves with candles. Mmm. Yeah. So yeah, I don't have a huge conclusion to this point just... It's really cool how this book does all this shit and it does it because lots of other books did lots of cool shit.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm a writer. I'm francing if you don't obscure reference for Neil for me. I do. It's another fairly short one. So, the dwarves were digging along way in different directions and that was mentioned they went as far as money, trampoline and Eticaap street. And there's Eticaap, that's a nice word.

And as I often do in this world, I just had a had a look to see if it was a word. And it is. So Ettacap is, well, A, it's an open source cybersecurity tool. But B, it is an old middle English and Scots term for spider. It's kind of archaic term for spider that comes from middle English for spider. So alternative would be Ettacock. And where do you know that from? Oh, where do I know at a cop from? The hovitt. Oh, of course. Old fat spider's spinning in a tree. Old fat spider can't see me. At a cop, at a cop won't you stop? Stop your spinning and look for me.

the cop at a cop won't you stop your spinning and look for me. I mentally block that bit as well. I know. It's very cool. And I think it comes from Venom and Spider, when Spider used to mean like top, I had to stop then, but also an etiquette wheel is a vertical type of spinning wheel. Oh, from like me and things, yeah. That's nicer. So I don't like thinking about Spider.

Oh, I'm sorry if I had that twice. How about your eyes? Yeah. At a cop, though. I always love the ring of that word. It does ring nicely. I just literally have like all the blank towel. Yeah, a lot of that, but of the whole, but.

Yeah, fair. Yeah, yeah, there is too much, a ruck-nid behavior. There is some. Right, I think that's everything we're gonna say about Part 2 and 3, because Francine needs to sleep. I am poorly. Also, I'd be quite skis today. If I start saying anything else, it'll go on for a really long time, and she can't throw things that we had from my years. It's true.

It's not that well-skilled with half a brick and a sock. Actually, I don't know. I didn't even mention poor hitherto. Oh God, I forgot to talk about poor hitherto. That was a horrible moment. Yeah, you don't often get named character dying in the watchbooks and when you do, it is treated with gravity as it should be. And Vimes remembers his brother and makes the very good call thinking about the parents because it's a lot different for Vines now. He's had like young men die on the job before, but now he's thinking about it from the parental perspective. Yeah. And demands that his brother is put in a cellar doing paperwork with a very big helmet.

And then if you think back to a few watchbooks ago when he just had a list of people whose family had died in the watch and he used to give his salary to them and how much things have changed since then? Yeah. No, his family will get the financial side of it, but he now understands that that's not enough. Yeah. Oh, poor fine. Sorry. Anyway, so let's go home. We're home

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