The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 129: Thud! Pt. 3 (Recursive Watchmen)

Episode Date: October 22, 2023

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 3 of our recap of “Thud!”. Water! Rock! Watchmen All The Way Down!Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretWant to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Tiffany Aching’s Guide to Being a Witch - British Public Library Pantograph - BritannicaKarst - Wikipedia Bolton Strid – Yorkshire, England - Atlas Obscura Best Murder Mystery Movie of the 21st Century - Trial By ContentWainwright Society Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

I don't know how fucking rivers work to Ireland. Everything's underwater. There is a major weather event in Suffolk, England, which is where we live. Yeah, it's all a bit fluddy. Everything, which is thematic. Yes, it's on the theme. I said that's enthusiastically.

Lots of people have had their cars washed away today. Like how you're trying to be more serious about it and just laughing more. I just guess I did because I'm a self-adulter prick and I really like a line I wrote the other day and like a fucking health and safety thing about not driving into flood water which was timely. But I was like you know each year we see footage of cars pirouetting gently down the road. are wetting gently down the road. Oh, I love that. And that has happened today. My office is by the looks of it. Certainly the road it's on has been flooded. So luckily I was working from home today. Otherwise you would have been kayaking home in time for the podcast.

Well, yeah, exactly. Just judging by the fact I saw a photo of the road in that state. Or as my tiny little sawy-aiser would probably have had to have been road home down the A-40. Hopping along. No, that's down in the sea. On the bottom of the road, road, road. That's what I was thinking. On the bottom of the newly flooded A-40. No, go at scans. Did you see, bit of a video of somewhere on the coast of Scotland because the North East has been really hit as well. Where the winds have whipped up the sea so bad that there's like giant amounts of sea foam and it looks like a giant.

It looks like a giant's foam party. Oh wow yeah. It looks like someone's had a really enthusiastic bubble bath. Again, it should not laugh. Horrible situation for many people. I went for a 20-yard walk to the river to make sure it wasn't about to burst its banks, and it was nowhere near, so I was like, okay, I'm on the back end of this. I'm glad your house isn't now part of the river.

Yes, well, we live in a bit where that's not impossible. I think about it though, if the river floods and starts joining up with the back of your property, then the property value goes up because you've got a lovely riverside cottage. But then the rent carries up. I don't think I'm the fucking property. Oh yeah. How's your baking? I'm not looking forward to attempting this week's recipe. That's happening tomorrow.

What is it? Minature caramelized white chocolate cheesecakes with a black current gel on top. However, I don't have the silicon molds to make the miniature version, so I'm making two small two sort of bigger but small cheesecakes rather than six mini cheesecakes. Yeah, that makes sense. I did actually try and buy one because I think the timing was really unfair for this challenge, so I want to do it as close as possible to replicate it, but I didn't check the size, so when it turned up, it's a bit too small.

I often do buy things and not check the size. So often. Yeah, me too. It seems like a lesson you'd learn the fact, but it's not, is it? The problem is, is that I think in my head, I know what five centimeters is, but because I work in it,, but because I work in a mixture of centimeters and inches quite a lot, I quite often mix up five centimeters versus five inches. And that with tiny silicon molds that I'm going to try a miniature brownie situation. And, France, get your mind out of the gutter. Absolutely not. It's flooded. It's cleaning there.

It's fine. Nothing flooded in this term's clean in there. It's fine. Nothing flooded in this town was clean. No, that's true. Nothing flooded anywhere is clean, most of us, as always, don't take my travel advice. Two-null-tory. Roa-wattoyote down the age 14. No matter how well the lyrics go. But yeah, so... I don't really like cheesecake, but you've made cheesecakes. I've really enjoyed in the past. The thing is, I'm really fucking good at cheesecake, but yeah, so I don't really like cheesecake, but you've made cheesecakes. I've really enjoyed the past. The thing is I'm really fucking good at cheesecake, but this is quite literally not my mother's cheesecake, which is annoying because I can do my mother's cheesecake recipe with my eyes closed, my hands tied up on the back.

Don't ask how. Um, but also the caramelized white chocolate thing, like on the show, they had to do it in the microwave. Obviously I am not purchasing a microwave for the process. yeah my kitchen's too small for a microwave so I'll be migrating that somehow it's all gonna go tits up I want I can get black current so I'm making a blueberry gel instead so yeah Iceland do for it but it's always mixed up with something else yeah yeah I couldn't find black and I don't want to use frozen

because that's gonna fuck with my timing. Oh, right, yeah. That's always very good. So I've got to make it and set it and all that bollocks. So yeah, we'll see how this all comes out. Sure, I'll be fine. Anything else to go again? Yeah, yeah, I have nice.

I have big news. I'll say, I officially got my yes. That's right, we're going to get married. Pronsine, don't toilet me. I pitched a new book to my publisher last week. They have said yes, so I am officially about to start work on my second book. Can you tell us about it? Yes, the working title, which probably won't be the final title, is from Sunnydale to Riverdale, teenagers as television taste makers. So it's a history of 30 years of teen drama on television, different shows, get different chapters. I am going to have to watch so much stuff for this. And it will be out year after next, probably. Cool. Have we told people when you're...

I don't officially know. I don't officially know. Yeah, I don't officially know when my first because coming out where we're looking at next summer. Cool. I'm very excited about that too. So yes, I had the joy for a full five seconds when I got the yesterday and the publisher followed immediately by the,

oh, fuck, I've got to write a book again. Tara. Absolutely. I'm an activation. I vaguely started working on it by just, um, I started watching Gilmore Girls again. Sure. Which I absolutely don't need to rewatch from the book as I have realised by putting it on for a nice, come, because it's a nice comforting, autumny binge. It is.

It's cozy and, uh, yes, I've realised I have every single line storybeat episode or most of the episode titles, every interesting guest actor that turns up, really fucking memorised and don't need to watch it again. Yeah, also we're very much in the age group now where it's weird to watch it and be like, oh you still have a crush on that guy who is a child. Yeah, very much so. Luckily, now that I am 30, I absolutely fancy multiple adults in the show. And if I'm being realistic, always did always was kind of Luke. Obviously. Yeah. He really hates everything. And I'm just very much into that vibe. Yeah. All right. So I'm going to briefly, before we start recording, just do an essay comparing Luke

Danes from Gilmur Girls to Sam Vimes. I have a horrible news for you, Joanna. We have been recording for some time. Shit, but in that case, do you want to make a podcast? Yes, alright, let's make a podcast. You do the essay during the break. You do the essay during the break. Hello and welcome to the true shall make ye fresh, a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Brudge's Discworld series, One a Stymne Ingram Lodge Glowder. I'm Joanna Hagen. And I'm Francie Carroll. And this is part three of our discussion of Thud. It's Thudded. The thrilling conclusion. Oh, it's thrilling. It is actually quite thrilling. It is a pretty good conclusion. Oh, it's thrilling. It is actually quite thrilling. It is pretty good completion. Yeah. Now, as well as before we crack on, we are a spoiler light

podcast. Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book, but we are going to avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series and we're saving any an old discussion of the final discord novel, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there. So you dear listener can come on the journey with us. Howard, through miles of freezing water by a malevolent eldritch force within us. As always, not a recommendation. Oh no, that one is. Oh, okay, cool. Yeah.

Can you bring that to you? You bring that malevolent force inside you. You can't just, you can't just jump in. Right. It doesn't have anything to follow up on this week. So Francine, you want to tell us what happened previously on Thud? I certainly do. Previously on Thud. Sally of Angua investigate several mine crimes while Bimes quiet riots with apples.

Well, mostly apples. Later, Mr. Shine invites Bimes to watch the water of cultural change trickle through his multicultural board game group But the drums of war are setting in the distance and when Sam gets home he's faced with an all-too-personal personification of the old ways Vimes's attackers meet grisly fate without his direct intervention But the commander must fight down his demons or perhaps one specific demon when the community leaders pay him a visit the next day. Right, I'm this time. A lot. Yeah, all right, cool, next time.

All right, let's see if I can do this. The girls have gone out out of Actourney. Meanwhile, Vime sits down with a third boardboard interview Helm Clever. As Clever quickly clicks his trolls across the board, he explains Hamcroch's orders and the deaths in the mine. The dwarfs have left the city with the cube and the painting, and Vime's finally clocks the importance of the art theft. Just as the puzzle becomes a picture, the candles go out, and Helm Clever goes down untouched. Bashfulson promises to vouch for Vime's provided he can come to Coom Valley. I know it's not provided that he can but the illiteration opportunity was there and I was there with an

internal rhyming I appreciated it. Yeah thank you. While the girls have fun with a capital F, so Reynolds gets caught up on the CUM Valley case and Sybil reveals that she made a copy up in the attic. After a bar catch is fire and a thoughtful tourney heads home, visit finds a sick sally with the rest and stands them back up. The copy of the painting reveals the clue in the skyline, and Vimes wants to go to the valley. Cybols coming along, of course, as is young Sam. Vimes visits Fettinari, who's taken care of the politics, and he doesn't go and speak

to Ridcully in a shed. In the morning, the coaches are raring to go and our rag-tag-bunch of multi-species misfits set off for Coom Valley. Things speed up as they get out of the city and as cruciferous vegetables go catastrophic, there's time for a late breakfast in querm. Our unlasted eight trot into town and they've made it to the buntsies and time for dinner. That night Angwer hears Sally sneaking. The next day and into the valley vimes around himself with art and looks at the mountains, eventually

finding the original painting and the spot that X doesn't mark. Something tells him to pursue down the dark tunnel and encourages him to let go of the rope. After an unconscious adventure, Vines is underground and out of the water. He walks on in darkness and death walks with him. It's six minutes to six and cybles getting worried. Vines follows the verns and hears his son cry. He finds the dwarfs and his cow and fights through the grabs with bat-like assistance. He raises an axe but the bars fall on the summoning dark and anger takes him down. Zorgon political, as the low king arrives, the stalagmites that shopped the grabs and safe now and thankfully, Nobby's acquired the cube.

Together they listen to Brian Bloodhuck's The Old Troll King and hear the history of the forgotten treaty. Bashfulson stops ardent from ending the truth and the trolls arrive to Parley. It's not peace, but at least there are negotiations. As the loose ends are tied up, spies revealed and trials planned, Fasam finally sits for his portrait. King's wait at the end for Vimes, who at six o'clock reads to young Sam. Oh, nice, he does. Delights me. So Helicopters and loincloths. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Wonderful. For loincloth, I'm going with Anguas unexpected magenta feather boa. Why are we starting with loincloths? You can't do this to me, fuck it. I'm 129 left, both in. Sorry, for helicopters, we've got the broomsticks attached to the underside of the coach. And for loincloth, we have anger as unexpected magenta for the bower. Perfect. And as always, death is here. Death is here.

Death is here, isn't that lovely? Yay! Discworld books, the only books where you can genuinely be quite pleased, but... Yeah, absolutely. Oh, have you got a bit about that later? I will talk about that. Okay, yeah, nice. Quotes, mine's a bit lengthy, so do you want to go first?

Yeah, absolutely, mine's very short. You might as well try to make sense of raindrops. I love that line. Talking about rescues, many eccentric, largely unordered notes of madness. But that's one of the lines that stuck with me. In and out. I really text over the years. I really like that line because if not not force of net raindrops has persic particularly nonsense school before but yeah I'm an actually looking at I wonder like what fuck what you do is not orderly absolutely ridiculous and

there's just no point in yelling at them. No. Might as well try and make sense of them. I'll settle in fuels then. Put your feet up get comfy This is lady civil after Serenald says that it might be too dangerous for her to go to cum valley Serenald she said with a side order of ice In the year of the Lice my great grandmother once cooked Personally a full dinner for 18 in a military redout that was entirely surrounded by bloodthirsty clations and She felt able to include sorbet and nuts. My grandmother, in the year of the Quayet Monkey, defended our embassy in Tudorpolis against a mob with no assistance, but that offered by a gardener, a trained parrot and

a pan of hot chip fat. My later aunt, when our coach was once held up at Bow Point by two desperate highwaymen, gave them such a talking to that they actually ran away crying for their mothers, so renault their mothers. We are no strangers to danger, so renault. I also remind you that quite probably half the dwarfs who fought at Queen Valley were ladies, no one told them to stay at home. Yeah. God, I love that bit. I love Cibul. Have I mentioned that ever on the podcast that I quite like Cypher, Ramkin, Fartyms? No, no, I call me. Yeah. Let's get point from Cypher actually. It reads the dwarves and the gender roles. I'm not sure if we've talked about that specifically in that obviously dwarves in Inkmore pork

that some of the gender roles become a problem because they're not allowed to express themselves in a feminine way. But obviously in many ways it's been problem because they're not allowed to express themselves in a feminine way. But obviously in many ways it's been beneficial because they are allowed to do the traditionally masculine. I mean, it's not beneficial, obviously, to go on a path of the yield. No, it was also pointed out that the historical recreation, like women were only allowed to do wetching, which is what maybe you think about it. I think Cheery explains it quite well in, I think, it's feet of clay when she's sort of coming out to anger and she says, yes, we can do everything the man can do. Provided that we do everything the man can do.

Oh, yes. Yeah. Which I think is quite succinct to like, yes, okay, no one's saying, oh, you're two weeks beyond a battlefield. However, it doesn't mean have to be on a fucking battlefield. Yeah. Marvellous. I'm a feminist and and not a woman, but someone was trying to assume that because of that, I should be going

on a battlefield. I will quite happily embrace every ounce of femininity I've got lying around. Get all pacifism, not so easy for me. Yep, pacifism and peti goes. Pacifism and so little upper body strength that nobody's ever going to ask me to tell the battle ax. Yeah, this is the thing I'm weird to see you've got there. You've got the vice at the time. My fitness is atrocious though. You could swing it at least once

and sometimes that's all you need. Yeah, I mean, that's fine. If you ask me to do a light jog, like, now we're fucked. Right. Let's talk about characters. Yes. Should we start with Vimes? Vimes with his little hangar on. With his little summoning dark friend. A couple of moments before we go into the summoning dark specifically, I really like how they stage. I mean, I don't like that helm clever dies obviously, but I think it's really interesting how it stage and finds his reaction and putting his hands up and he says, I can't touch him,

please. Yes, absolutely. Because it's so reminiscent. We saw him do this in Nightwatch in such a, in a, you know, I'm not going to touch him, but in a completely different way in Nightwatch, he was so in control of that situation. Yes. He made sure he had his hands full. He knew how it was going to look, whereas he had a scene. Yes, he made sure he had his hands full, he knew how it was going to look

whereas he's seen. Yes, yeah. Where is this one? He was like, oh, fuck. This was not the plan, even a little bit. Yeah. And also just the fucking metaphors when he's in pain, the ribs were carrying the melody, but knees, elbows and head all added trills and up a geos. Oh yeah, absolutely. It's just... He's... Hmm, also weird. His way of kind of lodgicking his way through the incredibly illogical and like, his inner monologue is always this like kind of weirdly rational on top of just the utter nonsense that's happening. He is absolutely delights me. Completely abject rejection of mysticism. This is someone who lives on the disc a world that is powered by magic.

We don't do mystic. This is just mystic stuff. Nothing to do with it. And that doesn't make any sense. That's the thing. His rationalism doesn't make sense, because Benari, when he's talking to him, is like in a very matter of fact, way in the same way, you might say, oh, somebody, you know, better put a dirty bomb on there. Oh, no, do you have something here? Yeah, and it sounds like a dwarf cursed the mind, obviously, when he died.

Binds is like, oh, I don't believe him out. And that knows that, okay, well, it happened though. So can we deal with that? Yeah. Can we acknowledge the curses? Because we're on the disk in there for. Can I bring you back to one reality please? Thank you.

Oh, I wish Binds would have had more time together. Just bloody minded. Bloody minded. It would be funny. Bloody minded skepticism in the face of all evidence. Yeah. Nice humorous metaphor of this, of course, for soundbimes getting off of the carriage,

sitting next to a milestone and hugging it until he felt better. I feel like, sorry. No, this is the thing. He is so determined to reject the summoning dark as well. It's not something I believe in. And it's just mystic. And I'm having nothing to do with it.

Anyway, the wizards. Yeah. What are you talking? His coach is going. Listen, can you do the mistresses a bit? Well, I just close my eyes. Haha. There's some, I mean, there's some genuinely just really

great lines about the summoning dark stuff. When home club ascends sense it comes in darkness and in vengeance and disguise. The bit where he's what, when he was saying like he's talking about his pain, he's like stumbling along in the darkness killed it's tail around him. Yeah.

And another beautiful bit. And you know, just the kind of the cleverness of the summoning dark driving a loss of the not behaviors but the events without making it obvious. So when Sam Vime slams his hand down on the table, it's because he's lost control of his temper and that kills hell clever. And like, that's kind of, that's my favorite bit of summoning dark meddling actually just because it's such a small loss of control. Yeah, and it's not one drop. It's yeah, it's a tiny little loss of control and it kills somebody.

And I know like it doesn't really and bash all Sims like really bringing lines back down to earth with that like like you didn't kill him, fear kill him, whatever. But I mean, what he did lead to that. And yeah, obviously he would have been the dark mentally and died. It would have happened, but. Yeah, and the interludes as well, and the way they make the pursuit of the Summling Dark and the interludes so on,

was because it's not obvious when Vimes first gets the something dark in him. It is looking back on it, but it's not obvious at the time. So it takes a second to clock that this rain soak city that the entity is moving through. He's, that's Vimes' mental landscape. He's this rain soak city, which is great, especially because like, a handful of sky

we've got to explore this idea of mental landscapes in a completely different way with this huge green open fields. Yes. Oh yeah. The idea of him like believing in the who watches the watch so much as well that he's created this entity. Yeah. And it's that the the guarding dark. Yeah. How many iterations of watchmen? It's their watchman guarding the Watchman in the Watchman. The Watchman definitely recursed. Yeah, might as well have recursive, he's got a case of the recursive Watchman. I've seen this before. I think Nanny will make the cream for it as far.

Don't ask what else it does. Lovely on taste. But yeah, it was slow, but it never stopped following. It would catch up. And finally, when the bars slam down on it, and this ominous, italicized figure comes into view, and of course it's speaking a cigar and it's wearing a helmet, and it's got the shoulders hunched just so against the rain. I do like a veterinary and drum not after Vimes leaves that meeting. A veterinary astronautoph if he's a betting man,

Dromnoft, if he enjoys the odd flutter. I like the part of Dromnoft's characterization, by the way, it's a very sidebar, is similar to Blouse, in that he just, he, the inverted commas thing. Yes. The way that it's got the commas around flutter, and you can see the little, same little wiggle that Blouse does with his... Yes. A little flutter. you can see the same little wiggle that blouse does with it. Yes, a little flutter.

Little flutter, sir. I've been brushing up on my sort drill. Yes, wouldn't like to put a dollar on that. Given a contest between an invisible and quasi-demonic thing of pure vengeance on one hand and the commander on the other, where would you rate your Madonna? I wouldn't say that one would go to the judges. And, in fact, it did. Very much.

You did. Very much. It did. It stuck frozen in time, acts above his head. And as he put it very viscerally with the the grags in front of him, cowering like maggots, and he is just absolutely frozen there. And then luckily, bashfuls and angua.

Yeah. Defin, because who he knows, you're allowed to make your own choice on that one. You are absolutely. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. and hallowed in torchlight and mist and stuff for their heels. Like, yeah, I love sound lines as slightly corrupted entity because it's fighting at the whole time. So yeah.

Luxair and the Discord made an interesting point that this idea with young Sam that, you know, if you do it for a good excuse you do it for a bad one, with being late to read to him, late to sort of tie him with the alcoholism side of it, that just one drop is one drop too many. And I think there's definitely an element of that with the dark as well, it's that the cage has to slam down, the watchman has to watch it be the guarding dark and as you put it, keep the dark in. I'm not here to keep the darkness out, I'm here to keep it in. It's what the guarding dark says to the something dark. Yeah, it's all very one drop too many. It is. Yeah, it's kind of an acknowledgement that he does have that darkness

just inherent in him, even without the something dark, trying to draw a tout of him. And he know, and I think we talked better before he knows that he's got this in him. And therefore he is in this constant fight with himself. Yeah. And there's also if you think back to where the summoning dark finds him and enters him, which is a horrible time of race, it's it's right at the beginning. He's when he's pissed off at the Greg's and he is down in the mine and he cuts his hand on the door. Yeah, you've got to have the emotional opening. Yeah, the emotional opening was there before he knew it, before his family had been threatened before he knew what was happening.

The interview that I linked to in the first part, this trilogy of episodes, I think, in part one, I could say. And Pratchett mentions that it was fun to write Vimes as a family man. So he said it's fun to wage up characters and to write them in new ways. But you know, a challenge what to still make it good for new readers. So it's not just like a, hey, you know, Vime series. You're just doing something. And I like his turn of phrase. It's not just like, hey, you know my I'm serious. You're just doing something thing. And I like his town of phrase.

He said he didn't save the world. What he does is give the world time to save itself. Oh, well like that. Yeah. Right. So Helm clever. I could sit here and talk about funs all day, but I know. I know.

I don't know. I'm happy. You having to help this podcast. You have to help this podcast. No, I am South of Helm Glover. God, the whole interrogation scene is one of the most like, like, subtly cinematic bits of the book. The pieces on the board moving quickly while he, like, quite easily, is always whispering his answers and piecing

things together for vines. The idea of him, like, just being able to close off enough of his mind with the sad thing to start talking is quite cool. Like, it's very believable. Yeah, absolutely. And the way Vines, like, kind of half plays the game and takes the breaks in hand-glaver talking to start put everything together in his own head, even though he's not familiar with the game.

Yeah. He's able to use it as a secondary thing so that his mind can tick away and do it. Yeah, absolutely. The bit about the troll, when he told he about his club that got well, yeah, he's sort of finally emotionally breaks. And he said, it was my club that Mr. Shine gave me. No, I hate that. I hated that. It's so good. me. I hate that, I hated that, it's so good. And his whole confession that we could hear him hammering and I wished him dead so the noise would stop and then it carried on in my head. And he says, I could have turned the wheel, but I was afraid of the dark guards who have no souls. Which these are the same guards that Vimes cuts down later in the book and I feel like they have no souls as kind of a make sure we're not inclined towards them. Yeah I'd forgotten those but that actually where he did the

the soldiers at the end. Yeah same. But they are trying to kill him so I've got a lot of time for what he's doing that. But you said the opposite when they were trying to kill a Vinnie's house. No, I didn't say I didn't have time for it. I said it was the first time we've seen Vin's act without due process. Well now we thought and finish it without due process. But he didn't kill the defenseless Greg's, yes. Yeah, thank you, I'm not making us find out. He didn't call it a defenseless guy, I agree. Yes. Thank you, Angra. But not making us find out. And Bachelorson, who you mentioned last week, because we slightly ran over the section

we were talking about, his silent interactions. Yes, I may have cut that bit out in the main episode. Well, we'll bring it back now. So yeah, Bachelorson. Bachelorson, yeah. Interesting how Vimes defers to him with his little nods or shakes of the head during the interview.

I think Vimes straight away recognizes him as just far more knowledgeable and obviously recognizes and respects him as far more knowledgeable, which do different things. He doesn't go all petty with it. He's also self-conscious enough about the fact that he's capable of losing control. Sorry. Sorry.

Sorry. Expelled, expelled the malevolent forces. He's also self-conscious enough about losing control. That at one point, he starts yelling at Alme clever and he stops when he sees Bachelors and shaking his head. And that's what reminds him, okay, no, there's no point taking it out on this guy. Yeah, Bachelors and towards the end of the book after they found Vimes when the summoning dark has left him. Vimes starts getting ready to have a go at everyone in the room and

Bashfulson, so you know, you listen to me. You had this in you. I knew you were coming here because it wanted you to come here. Yes. And people do listen to Bachelors in the sneakers, clearly very charismatic. Yeah, I compared him to my teleotes last time. And while he doesn't have as good a name as my teleotes, but nobody does, it's not fair, it wasn't fair in comparison. No, he's definitely a lot more natural, not an evangeliser, even just a natural leader. natural, if not an evangeliser even just a natural leader. Yeah, and a completely different way to how say moist is charismatic. There's no razzle that does a little show about him. He's very calmly right.

Yes. Yeah. So when he has the acts in he uses his internal acts against ardent. Yes. And he has his internal solitary nature, even though he's in a room with 19 other dwarves. Brief ridg cully moment who is having so much fun. That in the time is fucking life. I love him. What a very cloaking dagger.

Sorry. I mean, sorry. Take a seat. Compost is fine. Moment to acknowledge the fact that he calls Sam Sam. I feel like he's kind of earned it largely by being very reasonable a lot of the time. Yeah, I mean, he's not. He has pig-headed stuff and completely unreasonable at the same time. He's also really quite reasonable when it comes to city stuff. And it also made me think like obviously, they're peers.

They are. They're not, um, you know, this is it's not to like employee employee thing. It's not, it's not a, it's not a, it's barely a professional relationship. It is occasionally, but he probably sees him mostly in like function dinners or like even just fucking dinner past. He's probably, he gets invited over by several. Yeah. And he's also, he is not the type to call a Duke your grace. And I feel like Vimes probably appreciates that. And I'll feel except whatever he does get caught. You know what I mean? I want to call a Duke a Sam. And then Cibble who I don't know if I've mentioned but I do love.

No, I'd heard that, yeah. Yeah. Casually just copied the entire fucking painting with a pantograph. Fucking, and did you get the bit about her teacher? A girl who knew how to use a sex square in a protractor would go on a long way in life. Mr. Pertude. Mr. Pertude. A model. I expect for her first name, because what a lovely game for a girl.

Absolutely. I am, I have not used a pantograph. I've linked to it. I've linked to a bit of an explanation for one. I'm not going to try and explain it because while I vaguely do understand the concepts, I do not understand it well enough to explain it. Yeah. I know the technique of like you, you separate a reference picture into grids and then you can grid it out yourself, but imagine it must be for much more complex ones than I've tried to do. I've worked with scaling designs mostly for

like passons and stuff, so I can scale them up and scale them down. I've not used a pantograph for that. I have used to set square on a compass for it. But if you used a pantograph for a pair of pants, are we great? Well, now I need a pantograph. I did get, I was slightly confused when I Googled it because pantograph is also the name for you know, like those cable things on top of trains. Uh-huh. Yeah, that's also a pantograph. Ah, yeah.

So I guess it's it in both cases. It's pan as the prefix isn't it? I know, I know guys, please don't tell me. Then it's not pan, it's a joke. And I love how it says that. I'm probably wrong. It might be panto. Heliko. What is it? Heliko. Heliko. Heliko. I'm not helicopter. Right.

She says some coming along to King Valley, She's dreamed of it all her life and She says you can't gallow and tough to see it without the vans as whistle. I don't get a vent Gaby is I'm out of vent And then after Roach says no, I obviously the whole bit she says to him my quote and vines thinks was off that said Damn I don't love the bit, which is like, I shall simply tell them we're not involved. Yeah.

I mean, she could though. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, sounds ridiculous, coming from everyone else, but from Cybil, it works. Absolutely it does. But then she gets the fear. She does get the fear. Oh, that everything with young Sam, like, I, I, I mean, I love when they're reading to him in the carts on the way to Kim Valley and to try to just do a hippopotamus. He has eyes, legs, or horses.

And yeah, the fear that sets in when he's not back and she starts with this very calm. He'll be back. He's always back sometimes. He's running back at the lot. But he's always back. You'll see when they're bathing. And it gets to be any second now, and she tells herself it's a wrong clock but she's walking to the nursery. And she's insisting to, you know, he will be here, he will walk through balls. Yes.

And the bit that genuinely does make me cry is when she comes in and tells Sam she's going to read to him. And her heart did not sink. It couldn't. It was already as low as any heart could go. But it curled up on Wimbled as she watched the little boy stare at her at the door at her again and then throw back his head and scream. Like, proper makes me well up. It does. But the young Sam Vines is. Uh, the way it's described when he's reading, where's my cow, as he walks through,

and it felt his knees clenched, it's teeth turned, it's faced upwards. Like a man taught should be on his wits and the seaching, the gods of fortune and tempest scream, that is not my cow. Right, it's finally reached the peak of floral prose followed by Sardin. And it is, oh yeah, Sardin, there we are. And yeah, young Sam stops crying and just says, cow. Yep, there you go.

And there's a mistissism surely. Yeah, but that's fine. Yeah, but what I like is, you know, he doesn't make it home. He does everything, but then it's not using it. It's not using it. It's the next night. They fucking stop everything they're doing. He doesn't start just reading it really loudly from wherever he is. Yeah, he's like, right, literally, I could not that time. But I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's a nice little I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. to try his best. Or like the ring. Yeah, sorry. The the relapse is he has while he's drinking as well, you know, he gets sober and then

he picks it up again in minute arms and then get sober again. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's um, he's he is a man capable of making up again. Yes, he is very capable of getting up again. That's one of the things our mind does. Anyway, let's move on to the gels. The gels. Torney, we finally meet who had a body that every other woman should hate her for, but she compounded the insult by actually being very likable. She had the self-esteem of a caterpillar, and as you found out in any amount of conversation with her, about the same amount of brain the insult by actually being very likable. She had the self-esteem of a caterpillar and, as you found out in any amount of conversation with her, about the same amount of brain

unkind. Unkind, but it is very sweet, especially when they describe things like her blowing her nose and even that sounded angelic. I was like, this whole bit, the girls night out, bit, Terry Pratchett has written some of my all-time favourite female characters. He writes them very well, including like Anger and Sherry. I do feel like the girls night out is not the best example of Terry Pratchett writing women. And I found it a bit cringey in a couple of places. Yeah, I'm not sure how I would write a girls night out and I've been on a lot of them. I mean, I haven't been on that many to be fair because, but a few, but a few have.

I don't count like you and I when we used to go out as like a girl's night out. I feel like that's in a different category. Did we or did we not have furtherbours? Yeah, all right. No, fair point. I've been on plenty in a different category. Did we all, did we not have further bowies? Yeah, all right, no, fair point. I've been on plenty of girls nice out. And things like anger, you know, asking what's the screaming orgasm and Sally doing.

Oh, we got to you just in time, girl. And yeah, but the thing is that does have, and like not admittedly with ours, but I've been on girls nice out like this. Oh yeah, very similar. I don't think it's bad or completely unrealistic. I just think it's not the strongest of his writing. Especially the jerk syndrome bit.

I'm aware of that kind of thing. I've definitely never heard anyone use the term jerk syndrome. No, I haven't. It was definitely used and you'll know this one, but no. Yeah, I don't know if that's just wrong age or wrong genre of girl. Like I feel like someone said it to him. Yeah, no idea. Yeah. And but I think part of what I struggle with a bit is that just as like a B plot, it all feels a bit because there's so, so much action in the A plot. And Sally's got this whole other kind of C plot about the spying thing.

It almost feels like one plot to you many. As much as I like it, I think it's a very sweet little story. I like novice relationship with tourney and always being there if she needs a helmet to cry on. Yeah. It sometimes feels a bit crammed in especially because that night out stuff is happening into spurs with like hellclavit dying. Yeah, and they're absolutely wasted when they get dragged back to the watch. What I feel like it would have made the book too long, what would have improved it is that if we got like one scene of them all really hung over before they had to get on the coaches and doing that thing,

we're like cherries irritatingly cherry because she's warfen doesn't get hangovers. Absolutely. Yeah. Like I did like the sceneless how he throwing up everything. And through some comic column braille. So if you write for drinking vine. Yeah, oh no, I've just thrown up a small cocktail umbrella is one of my favorite lines. But yes, I feel like Anguars part in it gets more fun once she has drinks in and starts like joking back with them rather than just being slightly sullen about the night out thing.

Yeah, and I understand what she is like as a character. Yeah, definitely. While we're on the girls' backwards names. Oh, yeah. You're silly. I can't get out of here. A voyage. It doesn't really work. I don't know. I know.

Nagar. Yeah. I know I know. And I'm, I've mine is in Ickner Flarek, which I think is great. Ickner Flarek is fantastic. An orange Nagar sounds like a vaguely racist thing. It sounds like something that a genie would say

in a vaguely racist panto. Yes, or it looks like I should put a couple of apostrophes in there and make it a fancy name. Yeah, that's it. Just like sprinkles and apostrophes on. But yes, vampires, they can't resist thinking. They're all more recognized than they if they spell it backwards. I love that as just like a fable of the species.

I do like that when it's eventually revealed, you know, that she is a spy on what her motivation was. He's partly because she wanted to see proper policing and they're trying to win through things in bunk. Yeah, and it's, you know, it ties in nicely and unlines what Vennari was saying. and it ties in nicely and unlines what Vennari was saying. You know, about the, everybody wants to be like, this police force, because you got soundbinds in charge of it. Yeah, but then, like, right away, you know, if you think back to like this, is why Sally's joined, right away,

her like, what are her first things were the boss was seeing in wrapped in the ducky blanket, like, 12 to no sleep like fucking dare. This is how you spade me. I need someone to draw that for me please. I don't have to be here. If you've got a minute, detritus. Detritus. Oh, I love him so much. I love him. I feel bad for him.

He does this polite acceptance that being given the stables to sleep in. And does this, you know, thank you kindly. It's been clean. Being shackled. Even though he's being, they're trying to provoke him into breaking out, they can kill him. And he's much smarter than that. And I guess that's like an overversion of, I know it wasn't on par first with Bunty, but it's like he, he's the diplomat. He's done diplomatic before. He is very disrogued. And you know back in

Fifth Elephant when they realized they've got those trollhead trophies and they're panicking and think oh we should cover them up and he looks and he's like oh no there go. Yeah. Oh he's yeah we used to have human heads all over the world. I don't worry about it. Yeah. He is very diplomatic and I feel bad for him that he

has to be. That's it. Yeah. That's very impressive. Yeah. And he's saying such a good example for brick. Oh, bless brick. He's such a good father figure. And Vines is like, oh, they're happy but childless, marriage. And so that bit gets underlined. I wish I was the rescue troll. I do wish we got a bit more of just Ruby ever because we haven't really actually spoken to her. I say spoken to her, we haven't seen her like doing much in the books since moving pictures. Yeah. But she was such a great character removing pictures and her own detritus is little very much.

She is. That's a very nice time, Brian. That's fine. I just, I hope she's living her best wife in life and doesn't mind that detritus has brought Brick home. She's hanging out with Mrs. Kohlin. Yeah, no, that's a favor. They run it and they run it and listen to poker ring. Oh my god, that's my favorite disorder, can I never?

We got an email from Melissa who pointed out like possible recurring theme thing, a Congroa witch on the chalk and then brick being this first, like, more book troll and I was out from Nicky's, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe Congroa's troll on brick. I did like that. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a very interesting way to look at it. And yeah, to try to just remembering, you know, his dad showed him Kim Valley and just sat around the hints and remember and to try to just do the same thing, he just takes breaks to remember. All right. try to just do the same thing, it just takes back to remember.

All right. I just sort of generally remember. I know. And it's just like brick is such a nice troller, as well, is like, and just like, oh, you don't need the details for this past film. Cause it's just like, you know, everything's always hurt. And this hurts less than that. And you need to remember not to be horrible to do. So I've never wanted to be horrible to do it was really yeah if I have to say not be horrible to them I'm not just having had the ball of food please thank you this is great

make make make he po money as well make he po money oh I love it um serencial stitch did not need to be mentioned but I had to shoehorn it in purely, so I could say dynamic layer. Yes, but dynamic layer, the whole interaction of, we're very dynamic now. And so what do you mean? Well, in the back,

you've, yes, paintings are on the wall and people can look at them as much as they like. Dynamic layer. Yeah, it was thinking that was very rude. You don't ask. I'm a kid. It was like, it was thinking that it was very rude. You don't ask questions like that. You don't ask me what I'm doing. And in a spin-out.

In a similar, straight enough person, we have the Wayne Spreys. Oh, the Wayne Spreys. Yeah, I was about to find out. Do you know the Queen Valley Wayne Spreys? I do know the Queen Valley Wayne Spreys. Do you know Banti? It's Banti and her son. Now it was a terrible misunderstanding.

Exactly. He did have to go to Forex and the Hary everyone can delete Miss Understanding, but he's now just sheeped a big way. In sheeped a big way. And you know, there are new opportunities out there for a man that perhaps can't technically be seen on this continent anymore. That bit does one of my favourite comedy lines, which is where you get the third person monologue. So it's and Bundy and at no point do you see her saying it in quotation marks until we get to it. And I've cleaned out the strables for the troll and it's so much funnier.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it is again, it's like a little cinematic team shift, isn't it? That in a very book only way. It is. And I love this concept of the ladies who organize, you know, civil, civil, uh, uh, querm ladies college, contact network.

Um, and mostly barring, obviously, the Baroness from the Fifth Elephant, they do seem to care. And they know about each other's children and daughters and young sound is lovely. Um, and the Buzzeray Bunties full lovely. Sorry, Buntie's full name, Berrini's Wayne's Bre name mouse father, which must have come as a relief. And her husband too would quite happily just be left with his fishing flies. I like the little inversion of what Fimes was expecting. Mr. Wayne's Breed and my district

wasn't quite the venal pocket liner vines had expected. And the harsh little line of when he doesn't take his advice and goes, as he wishes, of course, I shall watch the river in any case. Yeah. I mean, he does know best in that situation. Obviously, he doesn't know best in that vines doesn't wash off as a corpse, but how was he meant to know that vines were powered by a malevolent force the quarter of a millennial old? That's not something that often comes up for the most magistrates I imagine how many was it a quarter of a million years old? Whatever he said it was I know a long time super super super duper old I spent my time sure

That is exactly what Vesonore said. Oh, no, he doesn't give an age. He's just not in the quote I have anyway. Lastly, before we move on, we get a brief Mr. Pony cameo. Oh, yeah. He's now head of the Artifices Guild. Artifices, which one they'll say the correct way the first time. Artifices. Artifices.

Not Artificer. Artificer. Not Articifer. I like, so we get this whole thing. It's this one last, Lucense being wrapped up. Conversation, my carrot is taking fettinari down and we have these incredible devices. Down to the mind, you're all on. I'm taking them down. Yeah, take some down.

Fine, my carrot takes fettinari down. Takes the rightful place on the throne. Yeah, let's not. Fine. My character takes, but no, he down takes a rightful place on the throne. Yeah, let's not do that. None of us saw it coming. What an ending. No, we take some down to the mind. He shows in these devices that could power pretty much everything and these underground rails and it's a little

casual perpetual motion machine. Yeah, yeah, he just refused this to understand. He doesn't need to. You got people. No, he doesn't. He's just similar with like, DaVinci, not to. He's got people to worry though, isn't he? He's just similar with like, Da Vinci, not Da Vinci. He's a decoherm stuff, isn't he?

Like people are like, look at this. He's like, it's his device. Is it that'll get us somewhere? Yeah, that'll work. All right. Yeah, lovely. Marvelous. This is not my, he's very good at delegating.

He's very good at delegating. That's what he's got his clocks for. And the fucking metal's shooting in front of his head. It was like, Zada meant to happen, was it? And this is coffee. This makes coffee. Right. And then locations, obviously Queen Valley is the big one. And Queen Valley. Incredible. The descriptions are amazing. This volatile, terrifying place of chaos. The Coom River didn't just rise in this valley and lept and danced.

At the time itself, way down, it was a crisscross of thundering waters, merging and parting. They carried and held great rocks, played with whole fallen trees from the dripping forest that colonized the scree built up against the walls, the gurgled into holes and rose again, miles away as fountains. It's great, it's such an incredible visual. It is, it is amazing. And like the little details, like the cold drinks of water that elsewhere would have a name like the devil's cold room, but you know, there aren't enough devils here. It's just a cold, it's just a boiling culture in a water. Like the other five boiling coldions water, we walked past them and it should go. We're not stopping. If we start naming them after devils,

we'll get more devils. They'll make more coldrons. Just fucking perpetual devil machine. Recursive devils, recursive watchman. Now you've got a party. It's the coldrons all the way down. I was trying to read about this to find out if there was an obvious round world parallel. I couldn't find one if there is like specifically to this one, but please tell me about it this means. It's on a flying boulder. But it's called cast geography,

K-A-R-S-T. So it's like dissolving lines, don't basically, that create the sink holes and the sinking streams and the caves and springs and everything like that. And there are lots of places all over the world like this. One of the coolest is mammoth cave in Kentucky in the US, which is the longest known came cave system with 400 miles of passageway mapped so far. Wow, I want to go there. I know it's a national parks. You can tour like 10 miles of it also, I want to go there. I know. It's a national parks, you can tour like 10 miles of it also, I think. Nice. And then the other thing that reminded me of, although I don't know if this is a limestone one, actually,

it's a Bolton Strid. Do you know what I'm on about? That you definitely do. It's the river that looks like a stream but is actually like fucking half a mile deep. Oh, yeah, no, I do. I feel like everybody who walks into it, yeah. So I'll link to Atlas andgera saying on that in the show

notes, because it's one of the coolest and most horrifying pieces of geography we have in this country. Yeah. And the first of Dean is apparently some cool limestone bits as well. Yeah. I love going into cave systems. There's something really wondrous of being in these huge

underground caves and realizing that water created all of this during ice ages, like millions and millions of years ago. Yeah. We've been seeing some, like, like, practices obviously very into it as well. We see something like this in the last continent, even, don't we? Yeah, yeah. The sort of cave that's been underground for a millennium and also 10 minutes.

And in fact, Nullalba in Australia, I think might be limestone, but definitely is one of these cool like geological rock watsits, geological rock watsits. Yeah, it means no trees. Geological rock watsits, yeah, that sounds right. That's an anorational draft of the B52 song. Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, as much as soul music is not my favorite book, I feel like I could be a lyricist in one of the bands. Hi, we're Missilaneast Geography.

Geology, fuck. Oh, cast, cast, in, cut, there's definitely band name somewhere in this geological area though. All right, we'll come back to that. We went. We went. Little bits we liked. Little bits we liked. What do you like?

I like the way that the watch at Sudopolis House react to civil coming back to her ancestral home. I forget, it's Sudopolis Yard, I think gets doublished. Yeah, that's right. But I forget that it was Sybles and she gave it to the watch. Yes, because the other moment in Nightwatch, don't you, where he goes to his old watch house and yeah, teenage civil answers the door, ready for murder. But yeah, I like, oh, sorry, the way that the watcher described, like, tiptoeing around her, they spoke differently to slowly and hesitantly, anxiously scanning the sentence ahead for

expletives to delete, which very much reminds me of when you go on site or something and the chance that are trying to be because because now we're in mixed companies and you know you can explain all your fucking likes that it's fine. I do going to be a fairer that I am. And Sam gets guarded by trolls who've volunteered to come in and keep an eye on the cage. But as well as the watchman of see adjusting their behaviour,

civil just settles into it as if she's never left and cleans out the tiurn. Terrible thing to do. Terrible thing to do. Terrible thing to do. You have to list. Just a couple, but it's something Pratchett always does really, really well and makes me giggle. There's a list of street names. We've got Eticape Street, which jumps on from your obscure reference video last week. Eticape Street, Money Travelane, Crybaby Alley, Scufflebot Court, The G-Bees, Calical Steps. The G-Bees?

The G-Bees. And then when they go up into the attic, it's an awful list to look for the copy of the painting because the Franken's never threw anything away. So, men's boots, comma, various. Rizzable puppets, comma, string andious, Rizzable Puppets, Commer String and Glove, Model Theatre and Scenery. I used to have an attic big enough to write deranged labels on things like that. We don't use the word Rizzable enough. Rizzable. Very Rizzable. Of course. Sam's imagined Apple Cores, Commer, Various, Leftovers, Commer, Needing Up,

which then leads to a footnote, is practically just going off on tangents here. I'm so guilty of the need eating up thing, but what will that he's doing the food, some sort of favour? Yes. What shouldn't one be able to do, Francie? That Joanna. That is when Carrot is examining the coach and then showing it to Vimes after Rid Cully has done something. Hasn't done something. Yes, sorry, sorry. He lifted the laden coach above his head.

You shouldn't be able to do that said Vimes. That's right, sir. Said Carrot. I might have think there's a hint of questioning there with Vimes as well because like, Karat probably could do that. And that's true, yeah, I will change the intonation slightly. He lifted the lane coach over his head. You shouldn't be able to do that, who said, said Vimes, that's right sir.

So is this magic or is this just Karat? Is he shirtless and gleaming in this scene by any chance? If he is, it's not mentioned so I see him, he can't be. Pratch has gone over his horniness for a bit then. You're a bit strong of yours, Fronsey. Oh that's right. Oggles, Oggles, Oggles, Oggles, Oggles, Orgles, orgles. Exactly. So we have skit forward a little here. We're in the caves underneath the Kuhn Valley. And it is getting close to six o'clock. And we know that because the poor little imp

is going, oh, God, old Zoggle. And if I can be bothered, I'm going to put the sound effect over that because you know exactly what it sounds like. It sounds like drowned audio. And that's a very good way of putting it into words. I also like the kind of not quite but jingo-esque coolback of having the imp breaking into a moment with a like mortal peril with a reminder of time, even though it's slightly different, more region reality, whatever. I just like that kind of the technology going, oh, oh, oh,

stop happening at home now, pay attention. Oh, God, the jingo once does that's such a gut punch, such a great bit of rising. Yeah. Anyway, the horse. The horse, when the coaches start really going, there was a fifth horse larger than the other four and transparent visible only because of the dust and the occasional glint of light off an invisible flank. It was what you got if you took away a horse but left the movement of a horse, the speed of a horse, the spirit of a horse, the part of a horse which came alive in the rushing of the winged part of a horse that was in fact horse which is a nice callback to Tiffany Aking. It is although it does make me imagine this horse as the weird shaped chalk thing. I do it the same. And also in that bit when they're going at the top speed, you get this light shift where

the landscape ahead is blueish and behind them it's sort of red and couple of cool backs there. Yes. And all the way back to Johnny. All the way back to Johnny. And then the piece of time. And I was talking about how the visible spectrum worked as well and a rabbit hole the other day. So that was an extra

bit of delight for me. Wave lengths and such. Wave lengths and such years. Yes, by a luminescence years. Speaking of callbacks though, there's a few dynamically, the horse is a dynamic horse. Galloping. Galloping. God, we've got to stop. Very sorry, John. Please tell us about this next. I love is when you do this push for us. If you do, if too long it starts going into comedy French.

Really? And now, John, we must go to the elephant sync. Speaking of callbacks, there are a few bits that kind of go specifically towards the fifth elephant. Ella and I just got a point out that the glass breaking cue also gets used in fifth elephant. Very similar kind of, oh shit, something's wrong moment. There's a lovely moment when they're setting off and finds since Cybil discussed their last holiday. It was very interesting all the same. Yes, dear, where else tried to eat me?

It was very interesting all the same. Yes, dear. Where else tried to eat me? Yes. Yeah. And obviously you have things like Reese, the Lo-King turning up and he's kind of on the throne, thanks to Vines. Yeah.

And then you do get reminded he's not nice. Yes. I love the reminder that he's can be quite nasty or not nasty cutthroat. Yes. And he's a very, he's a politician in a very dangerous tool. Yes. And the parallels we talked about in the beginning section as well

between Arden and this and D was the name of the door. We can remember in the fifth elephant, coming at it from very different angles and for very different reasons, but the behavior is similar. Yes. Yeah. And Sally is, you know, the resolution of her storyline, her motivation, being that she's part of this new police force in Bonk and wants to do good. That starts in the fifth elephant. That starts with Tantany, the watchman that Vimes kind of ends up inadvertently taking under his wing.

Oh, yeah. Also a couple of bits in the cave to mind me of the fizz elephant, just when he's waking up in the absolute pitched darkness. Yeah, very that. There's another bit, but I'll wait till I go on my long, long rant about how much I love this. But before that, Francine, do you want to talk about water? Yeah, just briefly, because I figured we probably had quite a long one.

That's the conclusion. I really enjoyed the water imagery throughout this and the kind the few little threads or tributaries, if you will. Sorry, tributaries. tributaries. Very sorry. Yeah, just kind of going through this in a similar way to the dark, but I'd say, parallel. So obviously you've got the rainy city in like Warpork and then you've got the rainy internal city, you've got the mirror there, which I like very much. And that just sets the scene in the way that practice does with the weather. Yeah. And it's in a very, this helps add to the atmosphere.

And then you have this constant reminder of the strength of water and water being melded with time or with with social movement and everything like that that I really enjoyed. So you have either the strength of water as a slow, drip, dripping away and changing the shape of mountains, or you have it as a flash flood filled with boulders, kind of sweeping away entire battlefields. And I've just got fucking paragraphs of quotes here that I'm not going to read out because that's just far too much at the end. But the water dripping on a stone dissolving and removing, changing the shape of the world, one drop at a time, flowing underground, bubbling up in unexpected places. And this is Mr. Shine talking to Bion says, this is like a coon valley call forward.

And so he obviously wants to, wants to compare the two and see, kind of got the geography having its psychic impact on the world as well here, I think. Yeah. Koon Valley being the physical manifestation of these social problems. And then later on, you've got Bimes thinking back to Mr. Shine's words while Helm Clever is having a little breakdown and saying, water dripping on a stone and it depends where the drops fall, doesn't it, Mr. Shine?

What good has it done this poor devil? And, you know, that's the point that water is in personal. The change, although it's, you know, quite a nice little thing doing it through this speakeasy board game thing. It's at the end of the day still going to drown about people who didn't. Yeah, it's a force. It's not a... It's not a... It's not a malevolent entity, it is a neutral... It's nature. That's it, yes. It is chaotic and uncontrollable. Yes, exactly so. And then when we get into the case in cells and we get this kind of calcification of the water,

and this solidification of it, and instead of destroying or shaping, now we have like a pre-the water preserving something. And obviously, in most obvious form it, it is preserving these the dwarves and the trolls and the king and the whatever and it just makes wafers and beautiful imagery so The axe struck the white wet stony waterfall and smashed through the trip of millennia time fell in shards around it God and then Too many people in a living cave killed it in some way the dwarves. And so the kings would be left in the dark to finish their game in with like peace, watered dripping on a stone, changing the shape of the world, one drop at a time, washing away a valley.

And then you just kind of get these combined, slow and fast metaphors going to put together that. Which I really enjoyed. And then just said, you know, a couple little bits kind of infiltrating the whole thing. So you got like the mud covering the corpses of the dwarves and slowly rising. Yeah, exactly. Oh, and going back just briefly to the flood washing the dwarves and the trolls into the case. What are my favorite lines for the whole book? Yeah. So this is the Diamond King of trolls speaking from the cube. He's saying, so troll,, fought, troll, and dwarf, fought, dwarf, and fools made fools of us all as we fought

to stop a war until the disgusted sky washed us away. That was nearly my quote. The disgusted sky washed us away is a fantastic line. Amazing. And then of course, um, mine's being not self-aware, but like being almost forced, woolly, where there's like, oh, mine's being not self-aware for like being almost forced warly with his like, Oh, this seems a bit too fucking neat. Doesn't it with cum valley was forcing cooperation on them? Damn cum valley. I saw that was a bit too packed. And it can be like that.

Sometimes you got sunset. So pink there. No style at all. Before recently, haven't we? Yes. So a get rich sunset and just came aware of the water in this one. More so in the dark. Interesting. I just came aware of the water in this one, more so than the dark, interesting. And just one last minor tie-in. Fred could feel it in his waters, right at the beginning.

He could, he could feel it in his fucking waters. And now here we are. And now he now look where you've gotten this, Fred. You're in your waters, honestly. Oh, dear, so do you want to give us an out of some overarching thesis for us? A little thesis? Healthy, healthy thesis. Something that runs through this is this river. No, it's idea of using knowledge and what happens if you don't know everything that's happening or if you willfully refuse to

understand everything that's happening. And it goes out into a bigger messer of how you engage with the books of reader. So you have right from, you know, the beginning of the section, but really from the beginning of the book, the way the grangs are interacting with this concept of truth, home clever says that the grags feared what what come for them in the darkness because they agree with Arden's story despite knowing what happens.

They say yes, it's true, it must have been a troll, it is true because truth is what a Greg says. Yes. Which is a really, really contrasts with again, going back to the fifth elephant quickly, the ransomaria from Blood Acts and Ironhammer that Sibyl performs to basically say, yes, their bloody well is a precedent. Part of it is the value of truth is greater than gold for a given value of

gold. But truth, of course, in the office that we have a precedent for this because the stone was the true Skion even that wasn't. Yes, it was, it was the grandfather's answer. And yeah, yeah. As the precedence of the song sets, Terry, you know, said, explains to vines to refuse that would, it would be not being a dwarf. And these Gregs who embodied warfishness also very much embody a very specific flavor of truth that is not truth. I like how their characters shift in vulnerability as it goes on. So when they're describing them being scared and running to keep them valid, you start to realise, like, these are very vulnerable old dwarves. And yeah, and especially once they're

without handcrusher, who seems to very much a firebrand, a ringleader. Yeah, yeah. And the first one willing to reject truth, you know, they, one of the Greg's children because he was trying to destroy the cube, which it's destruction of words, it's criminal. And that's why, you know, you have that set up in the last section with Kara explaining the cube as, you know, it's a recorded history, it's effectively a written history, which makes the destruction, you know, akin to vines being a blackboard monitor. Yeah. And along with that vulnerability that the Grags have, is the fear that they have. Again, Hankever explains it. They don't understand the city, they don't understand why trolls are allowed, they don't understand the people who don't, they fear everything now.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's that fear and misunderstanding leading to hatred. Yeah. I sent themselves out for it. Yeah, it's a fear and misunderstanding leading to hatred. Yeah. I accept themselves up for it. Yeah, it's a willful rejection of knowledge. We refuse to accept that the world is anything more than a dream. And as a result, we are afraid. And as a result, we turn to hate a modern conspiracy theorist, doesn't it? Yes. Fucking fairly to anger, angolese to hate, star wars stuff. Sorry, I had to get that in there before someone said, hey, you're doing the Star Wars thing. And so then you have violence in special of that, which we talked about with his willful rejection of mystic. He could try and take the time to understand the something dark. I don't think that would have helped him.

Yeah, but he absolutely refuses to, he refuses to accept it and as such, he doesn't have an understanding of the fact that there is a malevolent entity in him. Do you think part of it is he's so used to fighting down the darkness anyway, it took him quite a long time, it took until the entity was actually whispering let go before he was willing to. If he was in any way, there might be something. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And also he's, he's so used to mystic being a very specific

shape. And I kind of, right, this is what we're dealing with, this is what we're dealing with. That's got to buy pay grade and it's going to the wizards. Yeah. To the wizards. And then you have these mysteries that run through the book. Like while the summoning doc being in vines is clear, it's it's very slowly revealed and it's not spelled out thoroughly until the end. And then the reader gets to look back to things like where he first cut his hand on the door and realize how long the Dark has been influencing him

and how much those vignettes have been a part of what's been going on in his mind. Yeah. Yeah. And because some might argue it's super obvious on first reading, actually it wasn't for me the first. I'm a rather spoke, I was kind of confused because I thought the dark was physically chasing vines through the, like, mall pork. I don't, um, I don't remember

the first time I read this book. I remember having that confusion. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's, you can, yeah, you get, you could argue it either way, probably some people are better at fucking getting hints of books than other people. I'm not one of them, by the way, I'm not. But I find that makes things more enjoyable. And yeah, just the, yeah, you can look back and everything in it's stomach. It's like some of it, yeah, some of the In-A-Monlog was in italics and when he's running up the stairs, the alkyl walkie,

but you know, that could just be emphasis, but then yeah, when you get to read it, knowing what happens at the end, it's very fun. Yeah, and the way things like the seamery is running up the stairs, something else is making the body work, but. Yes, yeah, yeah. And again, you can read that as a,

you're just driven by this fear and anger, you know, the same way that, you yes, yeah, yeah. And again, you can read that as a, you're just driven by this fear and anger, you know, the same way that, you know, people say the mother can lift a car off a baby with the the adrenaline, which feels very much driven by something. Yeah, this, in this case, actually, malevolent force, yeah, swim files. But it's hard to start sometimes. So you have this mystery, you have this mystery, this question of the something darkwinding through the book, you have this mystery, you have this mystery, this question of the summoning dark winding through the book, you have the ongoing Sally question in her whole B plot, because although yes, she is a spy and it's signposted and it's revealed. And there's always the sort of something's not right.

She does also seem very genuine, you know, if she was just there to do a job, she wouldn't be taking tourney out on the piss and explaining Jackson Graham to her and and she's genuine and quite well meaning. She's as much as Angua struggles with her, she's not objectively like mean to Angua and she sort of tries to relate to her. Yeah and she's a spy from an allied force, so turns out. Yeah, which is, you know, not ideal for someone like Angua who's very up front, like values people being very up front. Angua is very direct. To go into this meta bit, I think the scene with death really says it really well, death is walking with vines because vines is walking with death, but you know,

don't worry, I've got a book. Yes. And it appears the Butler did it. Which I've mentioned on this podcast before, Trial by Content. I like their pop culture debates. A few weeks ago they had a really good, like, best murder mystery of the 21st century episode, but they did. They always do a little history section near the beginning. And one of the things they talked about

is the origins of the Butler did it. OK. I can't remember all the details, but I highly recommend it. I'll link them below. Of course, that's good. Yes, he says the Butler did it. And then he says it's a made up story. All one needs to do is turn to the last page

and the answer is there. What, therefore, is the point of deliberately not knowing? The journey. The journey. The journey. But so we have, in the book, we have this deliberate not knowing. Yeah. We have Vimes rejecting the mysticism.

We have the dwarves rejecting the idea of the the Graggs projecting anything but the truth that makes them a sense for them, rejecting the idea of the real world. Brick on drugs until he's not. Brick on drugs until he's not, his version of rejecting the real world, even vimes like he's aware something's up with Sally but just not prioritizing it. it. And then as readers, we experience this bigger reveal at the end, because we're so focused on what's happening to Vimes, the something dark, the cinema getting to the valley, Vimes is not focused on the contents of the cube. Maybe curious, I think bashful, certainly curious, but it's not his priority, his priority,

is bringing the Gregs to justice for ordering the attack on his family and, you know, for everything else they've been fucking doing, and the death of the miners, the cubers incidental, and then becomes the biggest part of it, as well as the tack and dwarf propaganda. What the dwarves were looking for was such a mystery that it was almost forgettable,

and then you get the reveal of it, the fact that they came to sign a treaty. Yeah. That your troll king's line, which is so great, that disgusted sky washing us away. The discovery of the cave along with it, which they've, you know, was part of the secret. It was there with the cube and that they've come to destroy because they don't want that to be the truth. Yeah. And it gets almost too neatly summed up with, you have this, uh, things that tack right right at the beginning of the story, um, with the paragraph at the end that, there's a

footnote, it has been clearly been added in another hand. Yeah. And then you get the blasphemous version of the things that tack right, which is that, uh, tax or the geode coming to life and smiles as all things strove and tacked elated in the life that came unbidden and that was the first troll. And it's such an underlying of what a hateful belief system you must have to find that horrifying. Yeah. Yeah. To imagine that your god is a lot, oh, not a God, you're being, is a loving force.

So horrifying to you. I did, I, I, I told you, like the secret and binds us motivations and I did, I did make a note of, while they were on their way and binds us trying to think of, like he's not making a plan, but he's underlining his aim and he's underlining what it isn't. And I liked that because it would almost be automatic to fall into the assumption that Sam Lyme's wanted to find out the secret and save the world. Yes, but it was like, no, I'm going to arrest the dwarves that did the murder. Yeah. It was like, there was that damn secret, but I'd care to him that even if he did find it and it was proof that

did war, ambushed the trolls, the trolls ambushed the dwarves, they both ambushed each other, they may as well drop it down a hole themselves. Like yes. And as it turned out, the truth was a useful political truth. And it turns out, you know, I liked the detail that the loaking has been working with Mr. Shine that they were trying to get vines there. So the world could find out about this from an honest source. And that he went fast and they were expecting the flying Mr. Shine in overnight. It was a really great detail.

Yeah, and we learned about little strong in the arm. Yeah, the nimble door, who died. The OG strong in the arm. He did it, he saved his little cube. He saved his cube. And then not not be saved the cube. Definitely saved the cube. Did not be knobs. That's what he was doing. That was a nice little sorry.

Oh, no, absolutely. I'm frivolous call back to the fact that you accepted that not be knobs stole this that are the other when he was thinking about a personal just not getting it. Yeah, again, that little bit of knowledge. In this case, actually, it probably was good, they're not be picked it up, even if it wasn't with the purist of intentions, like it's like, yeah, no, gamma. I love no, because again, he's not a malevolent force.

Just chaotic neutral. Yeah. So what yeah, I think it's really wonderful that this book takes this idea of rejecting knowledge and not knowing everything. And then uses it in about eight different directions, including a certain amount of falling the reader and even distracting the reader with what the real ending is, this bigger ending of this hopefully upcoming piece between trolls and dwarfs. And then lands on, it would be a lot simpler if it was a story. It's not a story, there's lots of stuff that's going to happen, it's all very complicated, it's all very political. Oh, well, that long running metaphor about water dripping on a stone.

It's like that's really, really fucking paid off though. We didn't pay that sort of look at the stalagmites. And you can repare stalagmites and all that stuff. It's not a story. It just happens to be perfectly story-shaped because Terry Bradshaw wrote it and he's a fucking get writer. But just to remind you that this could all still go very wrong. Just in case. Translator, have you got an obscure reference for Neil for me? I do. So Vimes is holding his little travel guide book, which is written by one Eric Wheelbraise, which has a very obvious round world counterpart in Albert Wainwright. Now Wainwright is a nice name, the recount part for a start because of Wainwright. Now Wainwright is a nice name, the account of art for a star because Wainwright was a person who made a

castle wagon with the wheel brace, you know. But he was a guy because himself and then practice describes the Eric Brace's books. Oh, sorry, Eric Brace as a man who had apparently had walked on just about everything bigger than a sheet track in the near round tops. And even then, had been belaboring mountain goats on apparently sheer cliff faces. And while Petal Slid bounced around him was clearly accusing them of obstructing his right to roam, Eric believed very firmly that the land belonged to the people, and also that it was more tough people than anyone else was. And Fract, it's very clearly describing not only here Albert Waynewright, but a specific brand

of the right to Rome people. If, by the way, I'm very strongly emphasised and remnant and agree with on almost everything, but with the whole, the mapping tastes more fruit material on a string around his neck such people are not to be trifles with. He's absolutely right. I never fuck with those people. Yeah, no, do not. I'm the person sitting there with the OS map up on my phone going, oh, fuck, that's right. You know, get any signal around the idea. Fuck with me. Oh, you are. I'm not going to be able to do anything. But, um, so yeah, when writes very cool, um, among many other books, he, he published the pictorial guide to the Lakeland Fells, which is actually seven volumes.

Wow. If you wrote in 13 years, between 55 and 66, that's not 13 years. That was not published. They were published between those years, but he wrote them at an average rate of a page in an evening and at the handwritten and hand drawn. That's it, everything. Wow, they're absolutely beautiful. I don't know how many coffees actually, but I've had some digital ones.

I should get my hand on some coffees. But he's got lovely handwriting, but they're still seen as the definitive guide to that neck of the words, but they're maps and all, and everybody loves them, and it did fantastic things for the like district's tourism. And the Wainwright prize is a literary prize for travel writing. And it is a very interesting fellow. It's quite a lot of it, and certainly in almost proto-Bill Brysonny, kind of tones in some places, or it's a lot more of a proper guidebook than Bryson, etc. This is quite near the beginning of one of the books. Walkers of a contrary turn of mind will similarly reject the advice to leave

Armbas Follalone and may indeed be strengthened in their determination and climate. Nor are they likely to be deterred by the many trespasses will be prosecuted notices that Manchester Corporation have sprinkled about the landscape. They would be further outraged if, having paid their 12th-inch for this book, they found it did not cater for their idiosyncrasies by offering some details of roots of a cent. Here then, our four roots all starting from the road along the west shore of Selmer. That's just stuff like that. Like,

a lover. It's fucking beautiful. And he never wanted to, like, he was never that interested in having them published to start with. He wanted to have them published privately when he did finally agree to it, because he couldn't bear to go through finding a publisher. But eventually, it just the quality of them got away from him, and he became a success almost against his will, which is quite fun. Incredible. I like way right. The whole right to Rome topic actually is very interesting. I love to cover that one day today is not that day

It's half-night and I need to eat It's half-night in your own medication Right I think that's everything we can say about the book that well it's not technically So next month it won't be It's not on it won't be. Next month, we're doing a fun little month of bonus content because there's just so much supplemental stuff to talk about right now. Andcillary. And andcillary events. I am not promising when any of these episodes are coming out because we are still figuring out some scheduling, but you can expect episodes on things like where's my

cow, the book companion to this, the Clacks and Third Ball games, and they might have some rather special guests on them. We're probably going to have a look at the actual stroke of the pen, where we're talking about Tiffany Aikings' guide to being a witch, which comes out on the 9th of November. Don't forget Rihanna Pratchett and Gabriel Kent are doing an event at the British Public Library on the 27th. I believe that's also going to be live streams. You can buy tickets. We'll link down below. And there's something else coming, which I'm not even going to tell you about. It's going to be an absolute surprise. I'm going to do one little clue, which involves two out of the four apostles. And if you can wipe it out from that, I'll be bloody impressed. I wouldn't have. I didn't have to. Be vaguely involved.

So on that note, dear listener, until we return next month with our random pile of stuff that we talk about, and then I clear, dynamically return Next month, you can join our discord link down below, follow us on Instagram, on the true shaman keep fret on Twitter and make you fret part on blue sky make you fret pod on Facebook at the true shaman keep fret. Join our sub Reddit, ask that's TTSMYF, email us your thoughts queries, cast us snacks and bolders the true shaman keep fret pod at gmail.com. If you want to support this financially, you can go to patreon.com, forward slash true shaman key fretboard at gmail.com. If you want to support this, financially you can go to patreon.com for a Sasha true show make key fret

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Out of the cursed. The cursed algorithms. And until the cursed. The cursed algorithms. And until next month, dear listener, it was close enough for now. That's cast the cut the last line a bit short, so I didn't have to do a hit for possumous in Russian. Ed's class the cut the last line a bit short so I didn't have to do a hip possumist in Russian. To be a guy, yeah, yeah, yeah. Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr