The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 130: Wintersmith Pt 1 (I Like the Shade of Her Cheese)

Episode Date: December 6, 2023

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 1 of our recap of “Wintersmith”. Witchcraft! Winter! Um…![Due to scheduling disruption (holidays to the Chalk and the in-laws in town), the episode is late and was edited very quickly after work, so I can only apologise if it's even less polished than usual! - F]Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretDiscord: https://discord.gg/29wMyuDHGP Want to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Steeleye Span with Terry Pratchett - Wintersmith Extended Doc - YouTubeWintersmith - Steeleye Span FanBook Lust with Nancy Pearl featuring Terry Pratchett - YouTubeTerry Pratchett interview - SFX via the Wayback Machine  Perchta - Wikipedia The History and Development of Dark Border Morris Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com 

How's your face? Oh, fine. Yeah, I was sufficiently water-borted myself. I managed to splash hot coffee over my face earlier today, because I was leaning down to give my dog a treat as we were training and I managed to smash it with my sleeve and and send it arcing across my face, like letting wearing glasses manage to stop it going too red or anything. But the fun thing was I was teaching echo, prepare a section or whatever it is, where you're trying to teach a like bodily awareness. Oh right. So she's not just botching into legs and things. Yeah, so teaching a like feet up on this, it's like the first step. And obviously I just demonstrated the exact opposite of that. Yeah, I mean, I'd love you deeply, but I feel like that's maybe

like not your area of expertise. I think compared to the dog. Well, yeah, okay, compared to the dog. I can take her up to beginners. Yeah, but might have to hire somebody in for the advanced limb control. Yeah, I'm just saying if you want her to, you know, run an agility course, then I mean, I don't have to, for instance, go on the bar, so it'll be fine.

Yeah, no, that is true. I just have to run alongside. I can't do that. I'm quite clumsy, but I'm not completely unathletic. No, no, you are more of a athletic, especially when I've learned that after some hills over the last week or so. I don't know, how's the chalk been? I mean, it was amazing, it was gorgeous. Weirdly, the day that I'd sort of planned the holiday around and the meal that was meant to be like the big treat meal of the holiday ended up being kind of the lower, not that they were bad, but they weren't like the high point of the holiday in the end. What would they do? Well, we'd gone down to the Southwest and the plan was we'd go around Bath and do the Christmas markets, and I booked us a table at the ivy, and that was supposed to be like

a nice tree and was celebrating because it sort of belated celebration for the second book deal. God, I should really write that book. Oh, yeah, no, you shared your idea. Yeah, I love it. Well, Just celebrating. Yeah, no, the Christmas markets were fun, it's just I'm not good with crowds the way I used to be. Like I'm just so out of practice with it really, and now I get,

I hit over one with a lot of Xena. Yeah. But I drank some Mod wine and also it was like, it was hard to actually shop on the Christmas markets because the stalls are like really tiny and narrow. They're like all these wooden cabin style ones, So by the time you get to the front, like you start immediately kind of getting the sales pitch from whoever's on the stall. And I totally understand like those pitches are so expensive and they have to, but it's like, you can't browse. And I like to browse. Yeah, no, I don't, yeah, no, I don't enjoy being immediately sold to. Yeah. And then the IV was kind of shit, to be honest, the service was at

roachers. Oh, I felt so bad for the girl that had our table. She was obviously new and didn't quite know what order to do things. And we she knocked a drink over on the table next to us. And they were like bitchy teenagers who were very on the service. Or it's all right. But they were clearly like all of an age and I could feel just a bitchy vibrating off the table. And yeah, and yeah, it just took them, we

waited like 40 minutes for them to come take our food order after they brought some bread and it was kind of and the food was not good enough to make up for the bad service. Right, yeah, yeah. That's it. The day before we'd gone to, we went to like Cheddar Gorge, which was super fun. Also, where I realised how I'm fit I was, because we climbed Jacob's ladder, which is like steps up to the top of the gorge, kind of from the bottom edge. Oh, nice. Yeah.

And, all right, no, in your defence, we live in Suffolg. Yeah, we don't do hills. It's always a bit of a shock to the system whenever I go back to Jersey or to Devon. Yeah. There's like 200 odd steps to climb up there system whenever I go back to Jersey or to Devon. Yeah. There's like 200 odd steps to climb up there. And then another 60 ups on top of the lookout, which is so that you can actually get the pretty views. I didn't go up there. I did, but, but I did. The extra 60.

I just could not face it. My knee's playing up to me, but we weren't around the caves, including the caves that inspired Tolkien for the caves under Helm's deep. And I bought lots of cheese, obviously, because they're in cheddar. Of course. Which I'm saving in the fridge for Christmas, but I'm very excited. And that night we went into where we were staying was like between Trowbridge and Bradford upon Aver and Bradford on Aver, which are two very pretty towns. Bradford especially is like all hills and ancient buildings and windy streets.

Yeah. It felt a bit like being in Yorkshire, obviously in Oxford, Southwest. Yeah. And there was an amazing second-hand bend's closure. I got a gorgeous suit for like 25 quid. Ooh, nice. Send things. We found a random little tapas restaurant and that was like by far, I mean the food we

had at the hotel was amazing as well. It was a gorgeous hotel, but that tap the restaurant was like, I would quite happily drive three and a half hours down to the south west just to go there again, it was so good. I saw tops all the offington white horse. Hell? So tough. It was very foggy. Okay, and I see when we went up there, this was like kind of on the drive back we stopped.

So I've walked the length of the horse and clambered about the hills and seen where the castle was and all of that stuff. But it was too foggy to see the horse unless you were like on top of it. So I saw a bit of its eye and stuff. Oh, that counts. You saw it.

That's enigmatic. It's mysterious. It's by glorious. It was one of those, you know, when you're like up in high hills and there's fog and the fog stops at a certain height, so you're kind of looking down on it. It was very that nice. It was poor frost everywhere, it was gorgeous. Oh we had that out here as well yeah. Yeah, perfect. Very on top of it. Yes, I don't have the horse and the chalk and the frost. Yeah, it all felt very appropriate. Excellent.

Any terrifying looking rings of stone? Any? No, we did see a random obelisk, but it turned out to have been donated to the National Trust for Queen's Jubilee or something. Queen, eh? I think it was like that one and not that one. Yeah, okay. Good holiday. Lots of racing, refreshing walks around hills. Excellent. I'm glad to hear it.

I'm sure I had things, interesting things, sort of half of them, but I can't think of any now. How long has it been since we did an episode? Since we did like a proper episode, that's just the two of us a minute. Yeah, it's like September. October. October? Yeah, no, sorry.

I forgot we went to New Zealand. Oh, God, it's December. It's December, front scene. I've started my advent calendar, front scene. Oh, yeah, I'm easy. Yum. I've got my the advent calendar that my mum made many years ago, which my sister at SideCusty offered. She's given it to me this year, so it's got little pockets sewn in that fit Lindor truffles perfectly. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. And it's got little bits of paper that mum printed out ages ago with lyrics from Christmas songs on because you had to guess the Christmas song right

before you got your chocolate. Oh, can you guess so? Unsurprisingly yes. My mother and I had very similar taste, which is why I can equally recognize the beach boys and Christina Rosetti in there. Is your tray up yet? No, I was going to do it this weekend when we got back, but I had one last bake off bake to do.

Oh. So I'm doing it next weekend because this weekend I had to focus on Ladi cakes. Sure, Ladi cakes, eh? Mm, how was that? It's done. Good. It was a very fun 10 week project

that I am glad is over because it took up a lot more of my time than I thought it was going to take. Yeah, I can see that. I can see how that would spiral. Yeah. Also, it's been quite expensive because butter costs a lot, and most of these recipes require quite a lot of butter. I am a lot of butter.

Oh, I mean, I have consumed vast amounts of butter. I have packed on my winter hibernation weight. I caramelized some red-on,, caramelized but softened for quite a long time, some red onions and a lot of butter today. They would have been caramelized if I gave them more time, but I was hungry. Yeah, no, there was a fine line between gorgeous caramelized onions and I would like to eat now. I managed half now. That's good, that's good. Yeah, it's better than some restaurants that say caramelised and kind of wave the nearer patterns and water. Oh yeah, no, we have a judgment. I think it's

perfectly worthwhile to be judgmental about sad caramelised onions that haven't been caramelised. Great. Dr. Who, I have watched one of the three, the third one's not out till next week anyway, is it? Yeah, I've watched the second one. Yeah, I've only watched the second one. Wait, you didn't watch the second one but not the first one. Yes, because I was going to watch them all at once. But we were at the in-laws last night, and they wanted to torture the second one. And I was like, yeah, sure.

Yeah, fair. Yeah, the first one's really good. The first one's really good. Yeah, I'm going to go back and watch the first love show. Yeah, I mean, they're both really good, but the first one has lots and lots and lots of queer joy. And I had a lot of happy queer feeling. I had to choose between that and going to be friends with board games. And the friends that I've been playing board games

with did say they were willing to put it on, but it would have been like, I'm glad I watched it by myself. I'm glad I watched it by myself. It's not going to. Yeah. And there's like, they're not bad people, but there are groups of friends that I'm willing I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close.

I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close.

I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. I'm glad I watched it quite close. stop calling it explosions actually because that sounds dirty. Well, there's not really any way to to verb queer joy and not have it sound dirty, is there?

Are you saying queer people are inherently dirty for us? No, you, you are. Oh, yeah, no, that's fine. Amit, no, a fuse. Yes, a few... Yes, a few... No, it still sounds bad. The point is, it's a very good episode and I'm really excited for next week. Yes, me too. I was about to ask something, but actually, is that better suited to the episode itself because it's mistreated?

No, excellent. Well, in that case, do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, let's make a podcast. Nah, excellent. Well, in that case, do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, let's make a podcast. Hello and welcome to The Treesham Mickey for a Podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Brouchett's Discworld series One of Time in chronological order, I'm Joanna Hagen. No, I'm Francine Carroll. And this is part one of Winter Smith. Yes, we got here.

We're here, we're festive, we're, you know, I'm not sure Tiffany's feeling that festive about it, but it's appropriate weather. It is, it's very appropriate weather. It has been quite literally freezing for the last few days. What number book is this, Francine? Oh, it's the first time I've not written it down because you always do. That's the first time I've not written it down because you always do. LAUGHTER That's right, I'm sorry. That's something, the disc world novel. I don't know, I can't afford it.

Why didn't you bother working it out? Because you might not mean the thing that was there. That's your thing. LAUGHTER Because you always say, I've got it written down. Why are you guessing? LAUGHTER Ah, the 35th disc world novel.

We are here. No one spoilers before we Novel. We are here. No one spoilers before we crack on. We are a spoiler like podcast. Obviously heavy spoilers for the book, Winter Smith. However, we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series and we're saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld Novel, the Shepherd's Crown, until we get there. So you, dear listener, can come on the journey with us.

Being dragged along on a broomstick on a string through a dark forest road. Excellent. Which versus doing the dragging, and which is on the broomstick? I think we'll switch halfway. Yeah, we'll take 10s. Yeah, that's good. Because we had a sort of weird month of bonus

what's its last month, we don't really have any follow-up. So I think we're gonna dive straight in. Francine, would you like to introduce us to the book Wintersmith? Yeah, Wintersmith was the 35th. I just got one, was it 35th? So I think so.

And I think, I was just saying this to Jack, I think it might have been the first one I got as it came out. Oh right. So this is 2006, at number 2006, it came out. Yeah. And that would have been about the right age for me. As then, I would have happily finished all the other ones,

might have had a bit of money to go and buy this. Yeah. I think mine was slightly later. Yes. Yeah. But it was also a Tiffany Aking book. Ah, midnight. Yes.

Nice. So when dismiss was shortlisted for the children's book of the National Book Awards. This one is the one recounted in Rob's a life with Footnails, where it was shortlisted unacceptably beaten by Jovees' phoenomals of the sea and Pratchett. I would say quite reasonably left after that and after that learned his lesson for not sticking around for a word ceremony, is it? It didn't particularly want to. And also one, it won the Locust Award for the Best Young Outlook in 2007. Interestingly, it inspired an album by Steele I Spam. They released an album of the same name in 2013, which was based on

with Tiffany Books as a whole, but named Winsmith. There's kind of a little trailer, five-minute trailer thing with Terry Braddock talking about it, which I'll link, which is quite cool. Steelice Spam became aware of Terry being a fan through his episode on Desert Island Discs. I wrote, yeah, which is cool. If nobody's listened to that, by the way, I won't, I'm sorry. If any of you haven't listened to to that by the way, I will also link about the show next because it's great, it's lovely. But he'd actually been a fan since his late teens, when his mate Dave put them on at a party. And so he brought up the idea of this album. And yeah, he thought when Smith in particular would be perfect to put to music. There is one snippet from an interview that isn't very relevant,

but I want to read out anyway. This is Nancy Pearl, speaking to Terry as he was in America to read from the internet, he said, you are one of the leading fantasy writers today for both adults and children. That says Terry. I'm far too modest to agree, but you are in fact correct. Amazing. So we are covering chapters one through four. Inclusive. Inclusive. Yes, inclusive, Francine. Invasive. Thank you, Joanna. How many years ago? Never gonna let it die. Yes, chapters one-3-4, would you like to know what happened? In chapters 1-3-4. Yellow right, jog my memory, why don't you?

In chapter 1, a snowstorm has turned the world white and it's time for the fagals to fetch the hero. The wintersmith is doing this and Tiffany's father asks for help. A fire burns and balances key as Tiffany saves the sheep and spies a red coat in the snow. The fire goes out. All of this hasn't happened yet, of course. It began the autumn before. In Chapter 2, Tiffany is visiting Granny Weatherwax, who is completely fine with Mrs. Iwig's new book. Granny demonstrates moving warmth and Tiffany gifts her a kitten. Back at Miss Treesons and

it's time to go out. There will be dancing. Through the woods and Tiffany's told the rules, it's getting colder as the dark morris is danced, a frustrated Tiffany steps into the space left and the dance and find something else in there, and the beat returns with a crash. Meanwhile in Dogbend, a witch is thrown in a river. Mystic emerges and thinks of Tiffany only to make an exploding shamble. Trees and watches Tiffany sleep, someone is looking for her. The Fiegel's have arrived to supervise after Kelders dreams of a crown of ice and a plague of chickens. In chapter 3, Triezen weaves in Tiffany wakes, she's attracted the winter smith and needs a mythology lesson. The Fiegel's deliver a well-read letter and an embarrassed Tiffany

steps out and calls to the cold. The winter smith returns her necklace but runs at her scream after a freezing burn. After an almost argument in a lesson on Boffo and the escape of Horace, Tiffany reads her letter and updates her diary while Mystic arranges her own delivery. The Wintersmith is very clearly thinking of Tiffany. In Chapter 4, Granny Notices strangely shaped snowflakes as she entertains Mystic. Tiffany notices two, but Rollins preoccupied with defending his tower. Trees and Teas' Tiffany before delivering unfortunate news. There's a funeral to be arranged.

At the cover meeting, the young witches discuss Miss Trees and's upcoming death and the future of our cottage. Tiffany talks to Petulia and the Winter Smith watches. Granny sees that Tiffany is caught in the dance and plans on suggesting her for the cottage. Early in the morning, as Frozen rosers and a vicious voice, the Winter Smith is on the wind, but first there are sandwiches to be made. Nice. Frozen roses, lovely little bit of mid-sentence right there, reminded me of the loom arume, which I don't think I managed to put in anywhere, but perhaps it did put in the phrase cracked cross or something, the loom room. I do like the loom. I can imagine he was quite happy about. When I'm insanely wealthy and have my vast sprawling

cottage and time for another ridiculous hobby, I shall have a loom room. Are you planning on becoming mistrizin? Kind of. I just feel like if I end up insanely wealthy with room for more hobbies, then I want a sprawling cottage. Mixed between Naniogun, Ogden and mysteries and God our vibes. Yeah, yeah. Black cheeses, but nice. Dirty jokes. Yeah, yeah. Black cheeses, dirty jokes.

And yes, nice knick knacks, of course. Helicopter and loincloth watch. For helicopter, I'm going with Tiffany's little broomstick training wheels. Yeah. I don't know. For Longloff, Granny Weatherwack said that what Mrs. R. Weige did was Wizard Magic with a dress on. So that dress. Oh, okay.

It's a massive, parracle wizard robe of a loincloth. Yes, very much so. Excellent, love that. Good. I think my quote came first this time, isn't it? Yes, what's your favourite quote? My favourite quote. Granny Weatherwax wasn't popular with anyone much, except when they needed her.

When death was standing by the cradle or the axe slipped in the woods and blood was soaking into the moss, you sent someone hurrying to the cold, gnarly little cottage in the clearing. When all hope was gone, you called for granny weather-axe, because she was the best. Ooh. I just, the line, the axe slipped in the woods and blood was soaking into the moss is one of the ones that stayed with me. Yeah.

That's a good line. Mine's a sure one. The sunset sky was still red and a givers moon was high, but the clowns were being whipped across it, filling the woods with moving shadows. There's so much gorgeous weather and landscape and nature description. I mean, there are always this, but this book particularly. Well, it had to be, didn't it? Yeah, it's about the evening.

Yeah, you're absolutely right, yeah. So, characters, we should start with Artifini. Oh, Tiffany. Artifini. Terry Bratchett nails the teenage thing. You don't have to put it. I felt attacked. It's a little personal.

The absolute frustration with not being taken seriously, like that child, that was a terrible thing to say to anyone who was almost 13. I know. But at the same time, I'm catching myself being old enough to be like, yes, child. It's like when you grow up and watch a little mermaid and you're like, oh, yeah, no, the dad has a point. No, you can't run off with that guy. Yeah, absolutely. He was not strict enough. He was not strict enough. And yeah, the mysteries inside and just said, foolish child, which was worse, mostly because that's what Tiffany Nishia been in.

It's that I'm not very undisappointed. Yeah. And it's the embarrassment that becomes anger, isn't it, when you're a teenager, when you're a youngster, especially when you're a teenager. It's amazing. One of the things that practice said in a written interview about this one was he thought it was quite nice to start with her making a huge mistake because that's how half of fairy tales work. You do something bad, you open the wrong door, you stuff of the path, you go into the wood when you shouldn't and bad things happen.

You have to work your way out of them. Yeah, it's, you know, teenagers make all kinds of random fucking mistakes and in fairy tales. Yeah. The really matters. It's, I like as Tiffany's introduced back to the reader. It describes her as not a certain of anything at all as she was a year ago, which is interesting she's learned, because, you know, the hat full of sky Tiffany was so sure that she was going to understand exactly what witching was and it manifested in all of the hiver stuff and now here you have

that unsureity coupled with really wanting to be considered sure. Yeah absolutely and she it was really interesting how she came not up against granny but how she dealt with granny. Yeah I thought it did not rise to the argument. No, and she sort of learned the shape of how to be with granny and bring her the kitten. Yes. I'm sorry, not granny, the girl with wax. Okay. The kind of not crush, but the like impressness around the winter smith as well.

Oh yeah. The um, the um, the ums that's the way. Yeah. He took the trouble to do that. That's quite impressive. I kind of wish I hadn't run away. And the conversation with the Chewriosh, it is kind of a crush. It's not knowing what to do with yourself thing. Yeah. is that not knowing what to do with yourself thing? Yeah. It's having impressive attention. Yeah. Yeah.

And that conversation she has with Patulio where she's sort of talking about the snowflakes thing and the cover didn't say anything to Patulio's, are you worried they won't say anything? Yeah. I was so glad for her that she, I think it was really good approach to give her Patulio to see the roses. Because it would have been, I think, just unkind

to have her trying to persuade people that happened. Also Petulia started especially in How Full of Skies being this kind of this comfortable thing, but this also, this very down-to-earth connection, standing up and doing the pig trick without a pig. Yes. Disgusting. And so you've got her here, like very calmly, connection, you know, standing up and doing the pig trick without a pig. Yes, disgusting. And so you've got her here, like, very calmly, accepting everything that's happening with Tiffany

and just having, I haven't like gone deep into the cover and stuff in this just because we have so many characters to talk about. We'll talk about them all next week. But I love the growth of Pichu Lida being like, very quietly competence making her confidence. Yeah, definitely. very quietly competence making her confidence. Yeah, definitely. One thing I noticed, I'll note it about certain age, when she made the mistake, when she jumped into the dance, it was very escapable. Yes. It was that I can do it.

I know where I, no, don't be stupid, but I shouldn't. I do it. I can see where I meant to be. Yeah. And that is almost exactly what happened with Escarina when she borrowed the eagle. And she's like, yeah, but of course, I would go here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just like, just like, just like, asked luckily, had a older, why is a witch there to drag her home? Yes. Well, carry herafter, six more restants has landed on her in Tiffany's case. The opening chapter, the things that

haven't happened, yeah, it's got it. It's so good, it's so dark. And the moment where she's, she's coming to terms with not just with being a witch, but being seen as a witch, and the moment where her father takes his hat off. Yes. And to speak to her, it's this level of respect that you don't expect in that direction in that way. But he speaks through as the witch,

rather than his daughter, and answer to help. Yeah, that must be very hard thing to get your head around at the moment where you're meant to be doing something. Yeah, and you're meant to be doing a lot. And you know, it's all sort of your fault fault. Yeah. And the moment where the men have to pull them back from the fire.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. The other men were ready, they grabbed them out, and he went to jump after and pulled them back kicking and shattering. That's definitely something. There's always stuck with me from the book that scene, and you can see the like desperation. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And her being the conduit for the heat, which we've seen before. Yeah, in which the broad. Yes, broad. Get it in a lot more. Not detailed, but it's more direct here. Yeah, I was working. What we get it from her perspective. Yeah.

it's more direct here. Yeah, I was working. What we get it from her perspective. Yeah. We get to see what it feels like for her and I don't think we've got to see how it felt from Granny. No, and I think it's also it's discussed in this is something that can be done and can be learned as opposed to like Granny can do that because she's Granny in which is abroad. Like, of course Granny can do that kind of thing. She's Granny. Yeah. But it's like you said in the first or the second Tiffany bucket is this car, culmination of all the witchy stuff we've learned. Yes. And but from this completely fresh perspective. Ah, Tiffany.

I love Tiffany. Tiffany and her green dress. Yeah. Not a real green dress. That's cool. Not wearing black because it's not witches that wear back, it's old ladies that wear black. Yes, again, a very 12 year old take on it. And sort of quietly grumbling to us and I was like, oh, it's not on my own pink.

Nobody hates pink as much as an 11 year old girl. 12, really bad times, so sorry. Day, Francine, you're quite right. I've been the lambs. Oh, and when she's talking about the lambs and you get it, you get it. It's that opening chapter I'm going to, if we have it, if we do the haubs for the disc world at the end, I'm putting that in the nominations for best scene. Definitely one of the best openings of the, of the, of the Holder's World. Yeah. Cause yeah, really is a gut punch. So Roland.

Yeah. Hello, Roland. Talking of gut punches, actually, I just, I opened with a laugh there, but I'm like, oh, yeah, no, for Roland. Yeah. I like that this understanding that they have because they both have to hold themselves apart from their peers. Yeah. I like that this understanding that they have because they both have to hold themselves apart from their peers. Yeah. So it's put them in this unique position. But Tiffany has the cover. She has a group of people who can be peers to her, although she can't have that

relationship with say the people she grew up around anymore. And she has mentors. Yeah, and she has mentors. Roland has enemies and a very, powerful and yeah, a very old father. That's that's very that's very fairy tale coded as well, though, isn't it? Literally trapped in a tower, but he's trapped himself in there. Yes, and the terrible answer. from there. Yes. And the terrible answer outside that he's the prince, not the princess. Yes. It's all very slightly inverted, cool, fairy tale stuff. And a little dig at bad doctoring as well, which I know Francher likes to get in there. Oh yeah, and you know, he only screams when you set the doctor on him. And yet the way he's not shouting, he's so calm in the face of them, he's reading about tactics and he's building up supplies and he's a bit naive because he's

also 13 or 14 years old. But he's fully aware that there are things that have to be done and he doesn't shout back at the answer at any point when they're harassing them. He's very calm and he says, he only screams when you set the doctors on him. Yeah. Yeah. Shylin, about how George Washington died recently. I really don't know that I'm dying. Killed by doctors pretty much. He got, he got a cold on a manor or something and doctors just kept bleeding him. Oh, yeah. Fucking leeches.

Yeah. Not even leeches, I think, just straight up bleeding him. Okay. I mean, there straight up bleeding him. Okay. Um, I mean, there's unlikely that you'll be in the position to care for me if I have a cold, but if I do, maybe don't start with bleeding, please. All right. Yeah. Fair. Yeah.

Yeah. Thanks. Lens it. Maybe. Maybe Lens around before bleeding. Um, so the Fiegel's. Hmm. And technically the book doesn't open with that incredible opening chapter opens with

Mystic's Fee Ghals glossary. Oh yes. Yes, it's been added to since last one. I can't remember. I didn't know. I didn't get to check. Other one else can bear, but I'm assured this means tired. I still want my favourite joke.

Yes. Yes, that's one of those perfectly balanced. If you don't know, you don't know. Yes. And if you do, you know it's not a problem. In the opening chapter, that haven't happened yet chapter, it's immediately bring us back to that. Jeannie gets a really great moment.

She stood up straight and proud like a Keldershub, but up close it seemed to him. She had been crying. Yeah. And I think it's a really, really solid indication of, because this is as she's sending Rob off to fetch the hero and saying they need to help Tiffany, it's a really good indication in a couple of sentences of how big and dangerous this is, because Jenny doesn't historically care for Tiffany all that much. No, she respects her now. Yeah. And to be crying and to be scared. She respects her now. Yeah.

But to be crying and to be scared. Yes. Yes. Well, I think she sees that Tiffany could be a danger, or as well, doesn't she? Yeah. As we see, we've got her as permonitions, which we'll talk about later,

that she sees Tiffany not just as, but at first maybe sort of some kind of contender, and that's not the case anymore, but she sees Tiffany not just as the protector of the haggle of the hills, but you know, what happens is the cackling. Yeah. Because the whole hills will be in danger.

It's not just that they won't be protected, it's that they will be in danger from the thing that should be protecting. Especially if she draws her power from them, it would be very, yeah, you can imagine being terrified, as I say, you can imagine. Like I can imagine, yes, you can imagine in that situation being terrified of yeah yeah and the feeble perspective on married life from rob later

on her just it's very fun you tack another feats the person of the lips and the fold and at the arms so I was sure you don't want the lies got dragons I was gonna put big dragons in it I was going to put big dragons in it. I might start using that. It just doesn't work. Have you finished this piece yet, Francine? Well, I don't have you. Come on, it's got dragons. The line's got dragons.

Why is this spreadsheet got dragons in it, Francine? Well, it was a bit boring. A bit more fun. Dragons. It's no longer accurate, but oh, but dragons. One of my spreadsheets has a rotating low poly rat gift. Amazing. Why?

It's a meme. Like a low poly rotating rat. I can't even remember where it comes from now, but when you see it, you'll remember it. Okay, right. Anyway, Horace. Sorry. Yeah, speaking of Anyway, Horace. Sorry. Yeah, speaking of things that make no sense. Yeah, we've got a vivid cannibalistic

lanko blue cheese. Mm-hmm. I don't really have much opinions of him. I think it's just a wonderful, joyful character because there's a lot of tension in this book. And it's nice to have a cannibalistic cheese as part of the silly tension breaking. That is pretty much what I could find practice saying about it.

He just said, I liked the idea of a 17 cheese. I went around eating mice or something. Yeah. That's why he's in there, which my universe. What's weirder? The cheesy, seen mice or the cheese drinking milk? Because as you point out, the drinking milk is kind of cannibalism, but at least it would then still be vegetarian.

I don't know if it is cannibalism, but at least it would then still be vegetarian. I don't know if it is cannibalism, but I can't argue it very well because we're not a fermented version of anything, so I can't directly draw this line. I mean, I'm sometimes a fermented version of things. It depends so much on how bad to drink. They are. I think you're right. I think eating mice is where does the drinking milk for a cheese. Yeah, I just, I feel like it feels like topping up on mana or something. Yeah, exactly. But also like if the cheese eats milk, eats mice and then you eat the cheese, like that's not vegetarian, is it? No. It would be like a broccoli in a badger. You wouldn't then eat that broccoli.

I don't think I could eat that cheese, though, anyway, because that's sentient. Well, I mean, I'd let it die first. Ha ha ha ha. All right, let's not talk about eating the sentient cheese. Let's talk about Granny Weatherwax. FX of sentient cheese. Granny Weatherwax, yes. Speaking of none of that, uh,

uh, speaking of eating mice, she's got a pet. She's got a new cat, hasn't she? You, you. Great name for a cat. Fully approved for that. Um, sorry, very nice, Granny Weatherwax, he cat as well, picking a snowflake and watching it. And it's a kitten that did belong to the widow cable, he's passed away, and mild spoiler I guess that we get the cats. The cat's back story is there in the books if you remember widow cable, but it's more spelled out in Tiffany Aking's Guide to a Witch. And it's a nice detail that's spelled out there. Yeah. Probably not the right word.

Yeah. It's another interesting little test of Tiffany to Granny Weather Work there and one that Granny Weather Work saw. I do enjoy how much they prod at each other's boundaries. Absolutely. It's kind of you get almost a feeling of the, you feeling of the two boxes and one of them's kind of sparring with the master and he's like, oh, nearly got one that time, but then just like, okay, no, I was joking, I could knock you out.

Yeah, when Tiffany does the, I'm not here thing, I mean, I like the description of it as the here signal, because we've seen Granny doing that fading into the foreground thing as well as a really good scene where she does it in Masquerade. Yeah. And it's just some people had a very strong one. They were the people who got surfaced in shops. Granny Weatherwax hadn't I am here signal that bounced off the mountains when she wanted it to. Yeah, I like just the description of disappearing as as far though just like the whole you know you can see faces and things and The opposite of that. Yes doing the opposite thing I really enjoy seeing

Like the thing that's run through her determined dislike of the horse as a trinket Yes, and how much she ascribes trinkets at anything metal or which wall that was there to hold up shut or fastened, that was shopping. Yes. And am I right in saying that she has a trinket in her little box of things? I think she has some things she kept based on events in other books. I can't remember exactly. No, I'm sure one of my listeners will remind us, but I think there's something in lots of ladies because she sort of has been on the books in the world and are, oh, yeah, it's not dead. I like that. Grading by the, is part of the rotation for the anti-cacling checks as well. Yes, she does need to be kept an eye on.

What do you feel about he's putting being made with bacon on a string? I love it. It's such a nice detail because I feel like it's something. If Brad didn't grow up with, he knew people that did such a thing. Yes, it would never occur to me. No. I mean, I've kind of done similar, but in more wonky, shaffy ways, it's a PK Garnier, effectively. The one that can be reused.

A lot of PK Garnier is just like a little bundle of herbs that you put together and normally put them as a bag or something, so you can put it into a stew and then you take out what afterwards and you don't have to pick out times for someone. Oh, nice. I'd like when you have a thing of mulling spices. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like rosemary and thyme and such.

It starts to reason that you can have rosemary and sorry. Every time I use herbs that that bit from good almonds comes back into my brain. Who's next? Mist oh no, misticks perspective Perspective on Granny Weather Work. Sorry, there are a couple of other things. When Granny is talking about, oh, you know, Tiffany's in the story now. At Mystics, thinking, oh, Granny Weather Work's believes all the world is all about stories. Well, we've all got our funny little ways, except me.

Except me. Obviously, Granny Weather Work's understanding that the world is all about stories, especially on the disc world, is such a key part of like our history reading books with Granny Weatherwax in part of Weird Sisters, the Deftany part of which is a broad, but I noticed in that and seeing Mystic's perspective on Granny Weatherwax, the point of view thing, we don't see anything, or we haven't so far from Granny's point of view, it's either Tiffany's point of view when she's with Granny, or Myst Granny's point of view. It's either Tiffany's point of view when she's with Granny or Miss Tix point of view when she's with Granny barring. I think one

moment where Granny notices the snowflakes. Yes. So we're not seeing really Granny solo thinking about what's happening. No. Which is good. Yes. I think think yeah, because you can get a bit dare say it's Mac and I was granted county. You can because she's very good at knowing what goes on. Oh, one one thing I've got about her cat actually before I forget is I quite liked it that Tiffany managed to persuade her to have it by saying miss Aalish, miss the wig, has got six big black cats and you can just imagine groundy thinking well I can be a witch with one small white cat that literally just going the opposite way. So it missed treason. Sorry, it missed humanity's treason. Yes. And yeah, as you pointed out, constantly referring to Granny is the girl where the wax,

which I love as a detail, because there's, you know, when they remember very young granny apparently she ran around and lots of people wouldn't teach her until she found someone who would insisting on waiting on someone's storestep. I think that was a witch's abroad detail as well. Might have been not some ladies. I'm referencing these books a lot and obviously I haven't read them in a while. Yeah, yeah. It has been a little long, isn't it? But I like how much it says about mysteries Tiffney and that she can't keep a young witch around. Mostly they left Miss Treesons after one night.

Tiffany had stuck it out for three months so far. Yeah. Because Tiffany is stubborn. Tiffany is stubborn. And Tiffany has the third thoughts to sometimes temper the second thoughts. Yeah, and I love the set up of how far she takes things, the old black cottage and the ominous loom and the ravens and the skulls and the clock, and the scuttling around and the black flowers and the...

And it's a bit like, obviously, it's the buffo thing which we'll get to and I think we'll talk about more throughout the book. I'm so glad we can properly talk about buff I know I can't I can't believe it's this far in I really can't. No and I think we've been using the term without talking about what it means for a while. I've literally listened to just skim over it like the rest of the bullshit we say. But I think how over the top it is kind of hints like, yes, there's something more going on here. She's not actually that goth. I've got a couple of references from mysteries and to round-file references. So, humanities are a trio of goddesses that are the instruments of justice.

trio of goddesses, the instruments of justice. And that's in 18th Greek. And then, you know, the thing where she, she slits somebody's belly with the thumbnail with the thumbnail. Yeah, there is a, and she says, what, it was a wonderful story. It was real historical antecedents on Randwild. Perchsta was once known as a goddess in Alpine paganism. So Austria, Slovenia, German, I think. And she was the upholder of cultural taboos, such as, this is Wikipedia, example, I didn't have time to go into this past Wikipedia, such as the prohibition against spinning on holidays. And so in the folklore, she roamed the countryside at mid-winter, entered homes during the 12 days between Christmas and Epiphany, and she would know whether the children and the young servants within had behaved or not. If they had, they might find a small silver coin the next day. If they hadn't, she would slit their bellies open, remove their stomach inguts and stuff the whole

with straw and petals. She was particularly concerned. It is said to see that the girls had spun the whole of their allotted portion of flax. Okay. It's very important to spin one's flax. Yeah. Elottedly.

Yes, no, only spin your allotment of flax, no more, no less. I also wanted to look up the clockwork heart, and I'll try and remember to do that before next week. Just in case I don't listen, tell me about any cool clockwork heart stories you know of. Yeah, especially the old clanky hand-wound ones. Yeah, there's a very tell-tale heart, but in the next section. But yeah, I'll which terrifies the Fiegel's by speaking their language.

I thought was a great detail. Yeah, speaking Fiegel at the Fiegel's. Take off your bon, your bony bonnet. Obviously, I'm not going to try and do the accent. Yeah, I'm a bony bonnet. Yes, that's it. You're a bony bonnet. Best of the shacks since everybody.

Big man, are you? Then you'll do me the courtesy and tap on the bony bonnet. Oh, that's very close. We just do me the courtesy and tap on the only bony bonnet in Vegas vision. Yeah. Sorry, everyone. I'm sorry, we don't try. I think we will learn that.

I attempted to figure out a Scuster Shaq sent for that Shakespeare thing I recorded for our Patrons couple of weeks ago and it went everywhere but Scotland. We were in Ireland, we were in Yorkshire, came out a bit welch around the years somewhere. We'd pit stop in Austria. I don't know how we got to Austria but somehow we got there. Normally only Sandosterium when I'm speaking Spanish. Anyway, yes, the introduction of Buffo, this, which is sort of this name for everything that's put on to build up a reputation

but it comes from the skulls being from this Aunt Morpork Buffo's Emporium joke shop. Yeah. And I love the village is wanting the stories to be true. Yeah. It is down there, isn't it? The demon. It is down there, isn't it? The demon. It is there. Yeah, because it's like we've talked about before and must have been in a desk while the context, but you want that to be magic in the world. Yeah, even if that obviously you live in a magical place in this case, but

yeah, you want to live in the story. Yeah, you want to be in the story even if you're only a side part of it and you want the darkest parts of the story to have all happened to someone else a little bit further away. Yeah, and you're under protection of the scariest witch anyway. It's your age. Yeah, which is really scary as mine. Yeah, mine's got a demon in the cellar and a big scary thumbnail. Yeah, oh, you got granny weather box. What colour's her cheese? Yeah, that's why I thought. Barely sinister at all. What colour's her cheese? I like the shade of your cheese boy. I like the cutting-on gym.

Oh, yeah, and the cool, this idea of knowing you're going to die a couple of days you do, this privilege of which is... ...the privilege of death turning up is something we've had before with wizards as well. But yeah, with witches is this privilege of knowing and they call it the call. And the perfect thudding joke of mysteries and announcing that she's going to die, it was an impressive statement and did not deserve this reply. Oh, that's a shame to be missing the weekend like that. You go in somewhere nice. Only a fagel.

Only a fagel. And this idea of mysteries and dying just being the wrong shape for people's heads because she's 113 and she's too old to die. Yeah, this never happened. It brings to mind, I'm not sure this is entirely appropriate for the diagram with the fighter jets and the red dots all over.

Oh yeah, yeah. I understand. There's a proper name for it as well. Yes. Yes. It hasn't happened, therefore it can't happen. Yes. Except, actually, and the constant.

Yeah, no, I think the fact that she's 113 is why she's going to die. Yeah, almost nobody dies at 113. No, you see, it's ridiculous. You live too going to die. Yeah, almost nobody dies at 113. No, you're silly. Yeah, it's ridiculous. You live too long to die. Oh, and they're up, but they're all, yeah, they're all making the food because, of course, yeah. Yeah, it's going to be a nice big party. I like the idea of turning up to one-zone fuel. That was something, a Terry Pratchett said about his own memorial, wasn't it? It was up to one zone fuel, that was something that Terry Pratchett said about his own memorial, wasn't it? It was somebody else to what he wanted for it. I was like, I'd like to be there. Yeah. I'd like to know exactly when I was going to because I'm really good at party planning.

That was going to be my my mysteries and based question actually was if he could. Oh, absolutely. I can throw a big party. Yeah, I would not, I would not want to know. I mean, I'm not a bit funny. I've planned quite a lot of funerals. I really feel like I'm such a control freak. I wouldn't want anyone else to plan mine. Yeah. Anyway, I got dark.

You wouldn't want to be there. Me? No. Yeah, would you want to be my own fear? I thought you were saying you weren't about to meet yours. I'm pleased to hear you're invited to my funeral. Thank you. Your chief morning, you have to walk behind my coffin. I won't be in it, but you've got to walk behind it slowly.

We've drank a floor mat. How am I going to play? That's why I said slowly. I can jog. I can help. We probably won't do the floor like the veil in that case. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Knee length. Knee length. Classy. I'm like tied back and ponies. Right.

Anyway, it's 40. Should we talk about Miss Tick? Yeah, why not? Yeah. Who was really excellent. Yes, excellent, elaboration on the old that being dot scum. Yes. Mag of an RCO obtuse this which hunting for dumb people with sensible instructions that get her a place to sleep a cup of tea and a biscuit and then she goes for a swim. Yeah, don't stop to what? I know we've talked about this before but it meant she went to quam college for young ladies. This is why she's such a good swimmer and such.

Who do we think she knew at quam college for young ladies? and such. Who do we think she knew at Querm College for young ladies? Right. She's too young to have known Sibble. She is too young for that, isn't she? But I think possibly maybe about same age as season actually, because we're a few years on, aren't we? Yeah, I think there could be Susan overlap. I think she might be a little bit younger actually. So I feel like it could have been there with there at the same time, but like not in the same class.

Yeah, I'm not sure Susan would have thought much of her. No, I think Susan would have hated her. She's got the real querm college mental block and the self-confidence thing, you know. Yeah. She's a different flavor of teacher-y to Susan's teacher. Susan becomes a teacher because she's exasperated at teachers. Mystic is a teacher thrown through. Yes. Yes. And it's very, you get a little Susan call back, actually, don't you want Tiffany? Well, it was down to the basement with her. Oh, yeah. With the Pope, the imaginary dragon. I think it was demon. Demon. I do apologize.

We like to be clear. I did free fire. I didn't know. Yes, that's why I said water. And yes, she makes the joke about being unscrupulous, which she was exactly. She waited to see if this extremely teachery joke was going to get a smile, but then mind when it didn't, Miss Tick, rather liked being smarter than the people. Absolutely.

Is that scribblesing true, by the way? I didn't look it up. It is a huge way to equal to 20 grains. Well, so says Google, it may well be pulling it from this book, actually. Yeah. But yes, I am delighted in how irritating I'm delighted by how irritating her character is. Yes, yes. Yes, it is a real management look at that. Excellent. Hold on. Yes, so irritating and yet at the same time, very clever. Yes. And I know I can be a bit like that, so I can't hate it too much.

Yes. Same. And then the winter Smith. Yes. Which is a fun name of the thing and the thing. Pretty anything. You know, I sometimes talk about the power of belief as a thing, not often, obviously, because I'm barely heard.

You mentioned it. Yeah, we may have skimmed past the topic once or twice. Fleetingly. Fleetingly. This idea of this manifestation, but kind of coming a different flavor of it. The spring and autumn dances are just an old tradition. Most people would say, a way of marking,

when I some fire exchange their dominion over the world. Some of us think we know better. We think something happens for you, the dance became real and something has happened, and now the wintersmith is seeking you. Yes. So it's not belief made real for everyone but it's belief made real for enough and it's really made real for Tiffany who didn't even know she believed in the wintersmith. Yes. Yes, you really, it's more akin to the hog father than to a god, isn't it? Yeah, it's a, but not quite like the hog father either because it doesn't need to be public

facing. No, it's like a manifestation of an elephant element. Yeah, I don't have a fact, right? I'm so sorry. I have to do it. Different flavor of a relevant elephant. Well, I think the thing is, Hogfather has a distinct relationship to humans. Even though it comes about as, you know, red blood on white snow, it becomes to mean something else for humans, but it is so directly tied into humanity. Whereas the winter's made this

to the manifestation of an element. And the thing the book reiterates at you is he's not human, he has no need for humans. He manifests because of humans, but the winter would go on just the same. Yeah. So you get what's he know about people, he's not as alive as a wee insect yet he's as powerful as the sea, which has come from the Gona Gola, and it's a beautiful line. Interestingly, we also get the little bit of superstition from the chalk where Tiffany's father had said the more recent dance one year and some are never came.

Yeah, which that could just be, you know, it's left off in the air a little, isn't it? Yeah, whether it's coincidence or whether it's something more meaningful. Yeah. it's left off in the air a little, isn't it? Yeah, whether it's coincidence or whether it's something more meaningful. Yeah. And it's quite interesting to get the difference between the Gona Gaw's perspective of not alive, powerful as to say, and Petulia's perspective of, he's a boy. Yes. That's why he's acting weird.

And it's pretty much the same there. Yeah. I liked how he appears as a boy. Yes. And this is very discworld. Here's where the snow is not. And he was nothing but the snow outlined him, flowed around him in lines as if traveling on an invisible skin.

He was just shaping nothing more. Which nicely mirrored the dark more stances who were described as... Dr. Shapes in darkness. Yeah, for it. Lots of absences. And I don't know if we had the Octorum bells on these chaps or they just didn't have bells at the old, the tolling of silence.

Yes. The definitely mentioned in the Rupa Man one. Yes, it was. We'll get to that. Yes, we will get to that, sorry I'm getting ahead of myself. Little bits we liked. Little bits we liked. At this point the foreshadowing is just silly. Oh yeah. Project foreshadows, I mean it's spoilers for the rest of the book to say I guess. Project always does really good foreshadowing but here it's delivered in a chunk from one of Keldas dreams and it's ridiculous. Sorry, green tree growing in a land of ice, a ring of iron, a man with a nail in his heart,

a plague of chickens and a cheese that looks like a man. Oh, looks fine. Seems like I'm just enjoying that there's nothing sossil about it. We're going to chuck a bunch of ridiculous things and guess what? And this is a kid's book, remember? And his foreshadowing and his explaining and everything is always a lot clearer in his Tiffany books than it is in his main ones. Yeah, I always feel like that at once. By Tiffany, and it's stupid to say because we talked about amazing.

Morris is really dark for a kid's book. There's dark stuff and we free men and half of the sky. By Winter Smith, I feel like it's just nudging up to a young adult. Not quite, but almost. And I think so much of it is because Tiffany's such a like relatable teenage protagonist. Yeah, for sure. And it did win a young adult. Yeah, the local sort of. Oh, surprise, yeah.

I mean, it's a taste. I don't know when the genre young, not genre, but you know, classification, young adult, became a thing, really. No. And then you've also got, I think it's more a thing with American booksellers than UK booksellers, but you do get this differentiation between kids and young adult of middle grade, which I think this would fall into. Okay.

So I guess like the Georgia Nicholson books maybe you'd put in that sort of flavour. Right, yeah. Although obviously that would be very burned in America now. Oh yeah, they would be burned in America. God, I love those books. Anyway, yeah, sorry, I'm wildly taking as off topic for a change. There's also some really good snow and weather descriptions in this book, which we always love, especially when Tiffany looked into the pale grey sky, she saw the flakes drifting down and soft feathery clusters. It was the kind of snow that people back home on the chalk called Granny Aking sharing her sheep.

Obviously there's so much good snow description in all of this, but I really enjoyed some of the wind ones as well. Oh, to that, the wind. Rawring in the woods like a big duck animal. Yeah, there's a great line. The forests were curling in on themselves ready for the winter. Yeah, it's all very good. So yes, I enjoyed that.

What about you, what little bits did you like? I liked, has it, speaking of whether, has anyone checked snow lately? Basically, I enjoyed the idea that these things that we know to be true, so we just don't check them. They're quote being, they say that they can never be too snowflakes. They're exactly like, is anybody checked? And granny always checks, it turns out.

Yeah. It's very granny thing to do. And also, can you imagine it's never been relevant? I should imagine, apart from now, maybe when the queen popped across and made a horrible wintery time. But checking the snow every time just to make sure nothing funny is going on

is very granny-worthy, like, thing to do. And imagine how quietly smug she was when it was. Yes, finally. He justified, it's been worth keeping an eye on. And then there's like a bonus bit, tagging onto your bit about mystic, feeling smug about scruples. Was mystic who knew that no snowflakes were alike? Didn't pay the many attention.

If she'd done so, she'd have felt slightly less smart. Yeah, that's very much so. And then tested later via granny, of course. Of course. Right. Witchcraft. What are it? Something I really love about this book is the development we're seeing in Tiffany. We've gone from half of Sky where we're seeing her learning how to be a witch to hear where we're seeing her Bacchama witch.

And it starts with this hasn't happen yet opening when she has to reiterate to the chalk, I'm not your daughter, I'm your witch and I, I will protect you. And it sets up the witch that Tiffany is going to perhaps to become throughout the course of the book. We see which is meant to be there. So it opens fairly early on with establishing the need to learn from others despite they're not being schooling

as such. There's no fancy witch school. She flies away too, like she imagined when she was younger. Yes. But you have to learn to others and you can't stop learning from others or being around them, this danger of cackling, which is more than just nasty laughter. I mean, your mind

drifting away from its anchor. Speaking of actually, there's a lovely, that still I spanned album you mentioned earlier on, Winter Smith in the song The Good Witch. There's a lovely bit of Terry Pratchett reading that cackling section in the song. It's lovely. I wish he'd recorded more of him, like reading passages from the books. They're around. Yeah, I've got a little collection of various interviews and crap that I've got from the wayback machine and the list something the other.

I'll see how many I can find that have him reading. But I found interesting in that cackling bit, lonely listen, hard work and responsibility and other people's problems, driving you crazy a little bit at a time. It's a really good parallel to the high-ver where that stuff is what comes out of Tiffany is being driven crazy by these petty problems.

And here it's, it talks about it's subtle and intrusive and so she just experienced a really intense version of it really early on in learning how to become a witch. Yes. I'm talking just the high-ver thing reminded me, Miss Treason, when they're having that big blow-up brow, said Seamy. So Tiffany could see through the bopho kind of thing. Tiffany used as her command to become the mid-hauraine mirror, didn't she?

Yeah. Sorry. And she's learning, you know, not to being stupid and impulsive and learning, holding yourself apart instead, dealing with people who are foolish and lazy and untreatable and downright unpleasant, and you could end up thinking the world would be considerably improved if you gave them a slap. And so we talked about with which is so much of the lessons is not doing magic and I think not giving them a slap is as much of an important lesson. Looking back again to S, I think this is what was happening with her, wasn't it? Because we have misticks saying which growing up alone is very sad and dangerous child. And we have Granny who recognised this in-esks

magic and she was getting to the point where she was turning her brother in for piglet and was obviously going to become quite a danger to herself and others very quickly. Especially because she had the staff and the whistle-guess of it. It was intensifying everything. But the biggest lesson that Tiffany like learns and then unlearns is Boffo, this idea of how Miss Treason has lived off the power of stories, the art of expectations, show people what they want to see, what they think should be there. Yeah, herodity. Very much so and she's learning that alongside

not doing all of it for herself, refusing to wear black. Yes. Is obviously her big sticking point, even though she's thinking of it as an old woman thing, and holding onto her trinket, no matter how much she is told not to. Yes. It was sort of this idea of choosing what lessons to learn.

Yeah. The trinket is a nice little conduit as well, isn't it? I think that's another little sub-theme we might want to keep an arm. Yeah, being a conduit, being a medium, being a medium. But so through this whole first section, you see Tiffany taking in these lessons and not just learning to be a witch, but as I said becoming a witch. And there's this running theme of balance through it. So when you go back to that opening chapter that things that haven't happened yet, Tiffany's remembering the importance of balance as she's melting the snow, carrying the heat from that big fire. This is which in cut to the bone, no toys, no ones, no boffo, no hydrology, no tricks, all that mattered now was how good you were. And I think this is really fascinating because it's a reversal of what we've had with learning

the magic before. She's spent so much of learning to become a witch learning that you really don't need to be using magic that you should be taking shortcuts. And then she in this scene has to put all of that down and use magic. And a very specific magic of balance that she has learned, she hasn't been taught because, you know, Granny Weatherwax doesn't teach it to her. She says, you have to learn it for yourself. Yes, that taught her what could be. Yes, she put the idea.

Give the giving of the box from the jigsaw. Yes. And I think that's a really fascinating switch on the idea Yes. Give it giving the box from the Jigsaw. Yes. And I think that's a really fascinating switch on the idea of once she's learned all of the ways of not doing magic, the thing she has to do theoretically, is this magical thing? And you see Ms. Treason light the fire with magic. Yeah.

In a very, and that's a theme that we've seen in quite a few of the witches' books is, no, we don't like the fire with magic. Yeah. In a very, and that's a theme that we've seen in quite a few of the witches folks is, no, we don't like the fire with magic. Yeah. But in this case, we do because it's important and an easily now. Yes. Not really trying for not doing magic. Yeah. Yeah. Like actually, we do, it's just we know not to do it all the time. Yes. And we certainly don't teach our apprentices that it's the way to do things. Yes. And just a couple of things on this theme of balance because it's very tied into that idea of a nominal space. And I think this is one of those books that really sits in that kind of kind of gothic thing, but especially this idea of being in the middle on the edge

of something, on the edge between two things on this cusp. Yeah, but almost the opposite as well, because it's the pivot point, it's the middle of the sea sore. Yes, that's how Granny demonstrates it. The bit in the middle that stays where it is, upness and downness go right through it. Yeah. It doesn't matter how high or low the ends go, it keeps the balance and then the magic's mostly moving stuff around. I really like it, and into that. It's interesting that the witchcraft is at the core and on the edge. Yes, not the...

It's on the edge, I think, in that it's on a boundary line. So it's on the edge, but there's something on the other side of the edge as well. Yeah, and that puts it in the center. And on play. Yes. One of those on the other side of the edge as well. Yeah, yeah. And that puts it in the center and on play. Yes. One of those. I'm glad we got it in geography. Yeah, no, that's what we really needed for this. And of course, the dark Morris is the idea of a counterpoint of balance.

The need for it as a seasonal counterpoint to the summer Morris. And it's something that's been sitting around in the books since Reaper Man. Yeah. And it's a very practical thing to say, well the Morris welcomes in the summit, does it? Well, what welcomes in the winter? Yeah, you can't just welcome in the summer and expect winter to come and really kick the doors down every year. That's not quite right. We welcome winter for a reason, and we'll learn more about that later of course. But yeah, as you say, perhaps it's been thinking about this for a very long time by this point. In Rieferman in 1991, God, we've gone on a few years, aren't we? I'm going to, this is an abridged version of the description

that's still a little long, I'm sorry. The Morrist Dance is common to all inhabited worlds in the multiverse. It has danced under blue skies to celebrate the quickening of the soil, among the best stars with the springtime. The imperative is felt by deep sea beings who have never seen the sun and urban humans whose only connection with the cycles of nature is their Volvo once ran over a sheep. And it's never danced properly except on disc world, named there, only a one place in the Rampantop mountains. For they understand what the Morris dance saw about, they dance it just once, adorn on the first day of spring.

But on a certain day, when the night's drawing in, the dancers leave work early and take from Attix and cupboards the other costume, the black, and the other bells, and they go by separate ways to a valley among the leafless trees. They don't speak. There is no music. It is very hard to imagine what kind there could be. The bells don't ring, they're made of octagon and magic metal, but they're not precisely silent bells. Silence is merely the absence of noise. They meet the opposite of noise, a sort of heavily textured silence. And in the cold afternoon, as the light drains from the sky, among the frosty leaves, and in the damp air,

they dance the other Morris, because of the balance of things. You've got to dance both, they say, otherwise you can't dance either. And yeah, that's all the way back in 1991, and perhaps you've been interested in Morristan sing for quite a while. Not not like a deep interest, actually, but had been interested. I found this nice little exchange in the forums from 92. Where a reader asks, okay, I can't resist anymore,

or while references to Morristan sing. Niers, I can tell there are five mentions in three books, Strata, Guards, Guards and Reeferman, is Terry Fractor the former Morrist dancer? Is this his best friend, Morrist dancer? Does the local side practice outside the window of the room as side, by the way, as a true pad to learn this? I'll say it outside of the room, where he writes.

So is it just that mentioning Morrist dancing as an easy way to get a laugh in England? Uh, Terry Fractor replied, One, I have never waived a handker in a anger. Two, I do not personally know any Morris dancers. Three, but Morris dancing is kind of funny and weird at the same time. On the one hand there's these bearded school teachers and computer consultants bobbing around outside the pub to general embarrassment full-concerned,

and on the other, there's something there. I can't say what it is, exactly. But most European folk dancing is jolly girls and long skirts and smart guys and buckled shoes having a hold down. While Maurice seems more ancient and less of a way to beat up on a Saturday night, it survival fascinates me. Are you accusing me of getting cheap laughs? I assure you I only use the most expensive laughs available. using me of getting cheap laughs, I assure you I only use the most expensive laughs available. But there is definitely, I think there is definitely an element of more restancing is mildly like embarrassingly funny. To British people is sort of yeah no we do have that weird. Yeah that's it. Yeah and that's that thing we've got quite silly. It is yeah but it's it is strangely compelling.

At the same time, isn't it? It is, it's kind of fascinating. There are lots and lots of different theories about where it originated. Actually, the folklore of disc world gets into it quite a lot. So anyone who doesn't have a folklore of disc world has always highly recommended and those who do go back and read that chapter, so I'm like, too, too far into it. But there are a few different kinds of more restarting. The Cotswold is maybe the best known, I think, like closing hankies, what we're probably seeing. The boredom Morris is probably what

practiced through a little more inspiration from start wars and that's the dance traditions, more of herifagia, frop and that's the dance traditions, more of herifageer, shropcher and wustisher speaking of wood for announced Asians, counties that are along the Wales border. And this is a little closer to the dark morris, it's a looser style, it's more energetic, it's dark clothes and the dancers have painted faces traditionally. That's actually a sign note. Traditionally, it was black face paint. Most of them have now stopped the full face black paint, all of the official bodies in

the UK. It said, you're no longer associated with the subdued full black face paint. And so they use darker blues, brown, greens and stuff. Yeah. One, I quite like the compromise off the Bell Bell Tane border moris, and they've got like black masks painted across their eyes, like a masquerade mask. Yeah, and interesting designs like that, which I think is quite nice. Because there were different theories about whether black face paint originated anyway, whether it was to do with coal mining or whether

it was to is hiding your appearance or your employers, wouldn't catch you moris dancing. to was hiding your appearance or your employers wouldn't catch you more of a stancing. Yeah, and now there are some reasonably compelling arguments that it was to do with that it might have had its roots in things like there were various protest movements not rising against the black laws. And these were the ones that repinalized peasants for doing things like stealing a bit of food to survive.

But my room for one I can tell there's a little bit of wreck on there and yeah, if it wasn't just at first it was certainly a little bit of flooring in the, we get to do the races, maybe it all back in the early 20th century definitely. But point being, I think most, there was some ill feeling there that I think largely, they've just moved on and gone on with it, because that wasn't the point of it. Yeah, I'm not sure what the point of it is exactly, but. So, Dr Chloe Milton Metcalfe of the Morris Federation published a little thing on the history of the dark Morris. And she says, the Dark Board of Morris provides a visual and physical contrast to the longer established and better known consul of Morris. Only four years elapsed between the publication of Pratchett's Reeferman in 91

and the formation of the first Dark Morris team in the real world. That was the Long Barrow and the Lost Women in 95. While some teams have attempted to reconstruct this world dancing, Dark Morris has largely evolved separately from Project fandom. And all of the videos I could find of the Dark Morris of the Project fandom had a bit of had the music for them and then we're done on like winter solstice, but I think you were saying the the author's note which I haven't got to yet mentions. Yeah, so in the there's an author's note in the back of Winter Smith. I invented the Dark Morris for another book, at least I think I invented it.

Reasoning that since the year is round the seasons might need more than one push. Once when I was on a book signing tour, a Morris side turned up all in black just for me. They danced the Dark Morris in silence and perfect time without the music and bells of the summer dance. It was beautifully done but it was also a bit creepy, so it might not be a good idea to try it at home. I do, I love it. And it's one of these things as well that did survive. It became a lot less common during imposed industrial revolution and then had a revival in the early 20th century. So many of the ancient older folk things did and with that came a bit of a makeover. But there seems to have been

quite a lot of interest in doing it properly, quite a lot of folklorists looked into it and tried to revive some of the actual old ways rather than going, you know, the traditional Victorian, this sounds better. Let, let's do this. Yes. So yeah, it's all really interesting. Love all of that. Still not convinced I'd be able to more a stance without hurting myself badly.

No, I know a couple of more local more instances that we've got a couple of sides around here, which is sort of weird when you've met people in like a normal social setting and then you bump into them. And I don't know what their style of morises but involves being wrapped in lots of fake branches and the like. Ooh, yeah.

Nice. Because we get like visiting moristances around here during like spring fairs and all the festivals and such that our town does. Yeah. Quick note, on the silent octane bells that were mentioned in that excerpt, spring fairs and all the festivals and such that our town does. Yeah. Quick note on the the silent octane bells that were mentioned in that excerpt you read out, which is just like the big bell at the unseen university that told huge silences.

Yeah. And we don't really see much of that anymore, do we? And at this stage of the disc world it's all a lot more metaphorical. more do we and at this stage of the disc world it's all a lot more metaphorical. No, I think the bell, the big university bell has been it used a couple of times in the recent watchbooks for like comedic effect. Yes, I'll try and have a conversation. Yeah. Oh, which I think is a reference from the bell's dogs for.

Or could be, could be. Listen, it's correct. I feel like past us had that movie. I don't know. Maybe we did. Maybe we didn't. I'm putting in intentional mistakes just so listeners have something to correct me on. I know. We're done with that. I don't want to hear a peppy sound of any of you. Right. Sorry. Did you have anything more to say in the talk, Maurice?

Right now, no. We'll talk about it more in the context of the Summer and Winter Dance in the later sections here. Have you got an obscure reference for Neil for me, Francine? Yeah. So Tiffany was mentioned talking about the Anagrammer's fancy diary and ink and everything, but she made her ink from Pramelling Salesmen who usually have mounts or two of green coperas, which could make a decent ink. If you mixed it with crushed oak goals or green walnut shells, coperas is a less common name for ferrous cell fate or iron salts, which by the way I like,

cause that's quite anti-elf. Yes, that's the iron ink. Stuffed yelves from reading your diary. Absolutely. Beneath oak goal is a round growth on an oak tree. It's like a scar tissue caused by wasps, and you can indeed use it for tannins. And you can with green walnut shells,

the brown ones don't work. You have to get them on my green husks, which react with iron salts. And you can make really cool link for various natural tannins. And I'll link to a couple of recipes because it is quite fun to do. The earliest recipes for oak galling come from Pliny,iny the Elder who I thought I'd friend of the pod.

And the other one is the Fidia says, Fagat Best. Thank you, Pliny. Oh God, I love Fag Pliny. Fagat Best I would like very much for my greystone. I wouldn't tattered on my bum. Anyway. All right. Sorry. Not sure where they go. There we go. My sugar's getting low. Right. I think that's everything we are going to say about part one of WinterSmith

We'll be back next week, hopefully on Monday, with part two, which will cover chapters five through eight inclusive. Until next time, dear listener, if you, no, fuck, sorry, let me do that again. Until next time, dear listener, we are thinking about gearing up to record our hogs watch episodes if you've got letters to the hog fathers and the men. Also, if you've got any questions for us about the podcast, the plot, thoughts, queries, classes, the usual. Yeah, yeah. Get all of that to us. You can join our discord link down below. Follow us on Instagram at the Trish and Mickey Freight on Twitter and Blue Sky at Mickey FreightPod on Facebook at the Trish and Mickey Freight. Join our subreddit, I'll slash TTSMYF, email us, thoughts, queries,

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