The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 131: Wintersmith Pt. 2 (Prolific Weather Personifier)

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 2 of our recap of “Wintersmith”. Mustard! Pickles! Water-Colours?!!!Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretDiscord: https://discord.gg/29wMyuDHGP Want to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Bulfinch's Mythology by Thomas Bulfinch - Project Gutenberg Mirror by Sylvia Plath - All Poetry A Short View of Scottish Funeral Traditions, by Tom DoranName DraftingElemental - WikipediaFirmament - Wikipedia  Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

Ah, lessons being upon this podcast. Wow, threatening. What have you been up to then? I've managed to finish today that chapter that I was stuck on and that felt like pushing a like up a hill. Get. The opening chapter of the book, and I feel so much better now that it's done.

And I like halfway through the chapter, I was just staring at it blankly like, I don't think I know how to write anymore. This is bad, I can't write. No. Forgetting you, it's the first draft. Completely freak myself out about it. So I finished that with Time to Spare today, which I wasn't expecting to have, and immediately dove into, let's watch them buffy,

because the buffy chapter is the next chapter. Excellent. Excellent. And then events converged in such a way that I might go to New York in spring. Oh, how do you know? The buffering podcast. I do. That I'm obsessed with. They do like a prom every year, like a Buffy theme prom. Okay. And I've always wanted to go, but like I can't justify the expense of going to America just to go to like this one Buffy themed event. I really wanted to go last year.

I think it was last year, because they did it at the high school where Buffy was filmed. Yeah. But yeah, like literally as I started watching an episode of Buffy, the announcement came out for the tickets for on sale for next year's prom. And I looks at it and I was like, I mean, it's before my book is due.

It's in April, so it's not like super close to the deadline with a bunch of other stuff going on. And like if I'm ever gonna go, like this would be a really good time to go because I can write about it, I can put it in the book, it would actually make for a really nice apologue. So I booked my tickets to the prom,

I haven't booked my flight, so I've still got some room, I had a look at the cost of flights first and they're actually not too bad to New York, it's like 300 quid, which is. That's all right. Yeah. Like for a flight that's right for a hotel.

Yeah. Because it's over like a, they've got like other events on over the, it's like a three day thing over a weekend. So that means I could like fly in on a Thursday and fly it back on a Monday or Tuesday, which is cheaper days to fly on. Yeah. So yeah, and I was, you know, the way I thought about it, I was like, I can interview people a little bit while I'm there and I can get photos.

So I'm not having to pay as much for photos for the book. I could go have a little touristy day in New York and get photos that would work with like the gossip girl chapter because that was a whole film like the steps in there. Yeah, yeah. And this whole thing's in Brooklyn, so I'd be staying in Brooklyn rather than in like in New York, which would be, which is gonna work out cheaper I haven't looked at costs for that yet. I don't know, it's a difference, but...

It's like a... Brooklyn's a little way out of Manhattan, is it? Yeah, yeah. Nice. I think it's slightly scary because you know, going to a city or by myself... I don't know if you'll... No, but I've normally been with someone like when I went to Portland, I was staying with my cousin and went over to Vegas, I went with a friend.

Well, New York is full of people being slightly scared about being in big city on their own. Yes, there's movies, movies about it. Yeah, no, I'm hoping and the entire Romneylang happens to me in the four days, I'll potentially be there. So yeah, I'm in a really good mood, I'm excited. Excellent. And we're talking about a really good book. What a day.

We are. It's a good book. It's a good day. My notes are only nine pages long. Jesus Christ, Jay. The page of that is the summary. You do all your notes and bellic points, actually, don't you? All right. I'll allow that. I, yeah, no, I have a very specific bellic point systems, which is a way I end up redoing your bellic points

if you've put them in the plan first, because I'm a screaming control freak. I never even noticed, so that's fine. It's also because otherwise the research for the book stuff would become unreadable very quickly. That's the horrifying mixes of bold things and it talusized things and nonsensical color coding. I never want anyone to look at my how I do my research. Yeah, that's right, because I have all my research and lots of different files and my Zatler thingy. Yeah, no, my high, yeah, on a one-greakledock

so that I can have it on half my screen while my writing's in the other half of the screen. Got it? Yeah, yeah. It's also been all makes sense now. Quite often, 18 tabs open by the time I've managed to write 1,000 words. 18, 18 is fine. I do, however, have like 60 unread emails in my personally mail-in box right now. I have not kind of comment on how many I've got. If I ever want to give you a heart attack,

I'll send you a screenshot. No, please don't, Francine. I can't with the little red numbers. No, no. But on the other hand, you terrified me with your habit of getting notifications for everything on your phone. And I know it's good for the podcast or whatever. But yeah. And so the Twitter stuff comes up and I think Instagram and your emails come up as a push notification. Uh, not all of my emails, but I have it set. I think the true Shemaki threat emails come through as a push notification because obviously there's not as many of those as all my like, your shit's been dispatched emails on my inbox. And it's nice if I want to keep an eye on stuff. Twitter, the push notifications go on and off, because I like keeping an eye on podcast stuff.

Yeah. But like, if we have like something that's very popular, then I will turn off the, like when we did the head cannon thread the other day and it was like, oh, if I don't turn these off, it's going to ping every time. If someone goes through a like, every tweet in the thread. Oh yeah, yeah. So yeah, no, that's off at the moment, but I like having it on for keeping an eye on new followers so I can block them with their turf because we do get those every now and then. Yeah, weird. I wonder if anybody's written an article on what I'm probably very unoriginally

going to call notification inflation, which is apps that don't have a lot to tell you feel like they need to give you 10 notifications when you log in and so we'll make up any old shit. Oh yeah, Facebook linked in Facebook. LinkedIn is the worst at the moment. I think Facebook is quite calm for me because I am very aggressive about saying none of these. Thank you. None of these. Thank you. Yeah, my Facebook needs an overhaul, like probably a delete and start again thing. LinkedIn I get around by just not having. Yeah, but I'm aware of that. Yeah, other people do need it.

I just happen to have not, don't need it particularly in my life. I probably would still be useful to have a presence on there, but I'll make. I don't know if you don't have to. No, I'm not. No, I feel weird about saying that out loud now, even though if anybody listens to our podcast, I've got worse professionalism problems than slagging off LinkedIn.

I was reminded the other day that LinkedIn does that weird, shows you who's seen your profile. Oh, yeah. And somebody who I knew when I was 17 had looked at my profile and like we haven't talked for a very long time for quite a good reason. Yeah, I was like hmm well i'm not going to click on your profile back and i texted uh Becky to look at it for me. Like stop this person for me. I don't want to do this abstraction.

Just go i play quite quite modern day witch petty. I'm going to say that to make myself feel better. Yeah this is witch pettiness not just us occasionally being immature about things. Yeah, exactly. This is just one step along the, the, the very cracked cobblestone path to becoming Naniog and Granny where the wax. I, I have dibs on being the one that becomes Granny, Naniog. Oh, yeah, no, I figured we were kind of like a combination anyway. Yeah, I feel like we both got a gimmick of each.

Neither of us are going to end up with an army of daughters in law, but no, we do need some. We probably need a third member of the cover for charisma. I think I have not. Not that you're not charismatic. But I think that person talks to people all the time. And you need a set charismatic person. Yeah. And we've got to get on with shit.

I would say I have no charisma to like acquire some minions. If we want to have those instead of Dordeson law, I feel like that's probably leaning into like bad witching though. Yeah. Maybe we could just start calling the listeners minions. Do you think they'd mind? Oh, I wouldn't. No, I don't like that. It reminds me too much to the Facebook memes, bring it full circle. Oh,, yeah, no, let's not do that. Mm. Mm. If you have a, if we ever come up with a collective noun for the old listeners.

Uh, listeners, reminders. Ha ha ha. Good God, don't you have better things to do with your time? I'm so on a very old post in there. Ha ha ha. Fretters. Oh, yeah. Fretsters.

No, that's horrible. Let's all do that. I started having a look at wake up, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like about when we're much and are discord, like the only way you're going to get it is if Francine procrastinates hard enough. Yeah, basically, you've just got to hope I'm really busy. Yeah. Just think of the only way I get anything done, if I don't have time to do it. I think that's why I've been struggling to, like, not writers blocky, but kind of writers blocky, like, really struggling with the book, so I don't have enough other

shit going on. Now we're like into December and all my decorations around the table and ready to be put up and I've got boxes of presents that need wrapping. I think that's really pushed me to work on the book. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't think about like, and it is partly true about procrastination making me do stuff, but there is a truth too, if you need something, don't ask a busy person to do it because once you're in that mindset, that's good. And I'm not, I'm no shade to not being busy because I much prefer that. Yeah, and I feel like I do much better creative work

when I'm not busy and have some time to stretch out, as it were. But, I see my version of right drunk edit sober was do my creative writing snatched in 15 minutes when I had like lunch breaks at work. That was the right drunken and the edit sober was oh god, I finally got a day off. I've got to what the fuck is this? Especially because I wasn't bringing my laptop to work. That was handwritten. Yeah, it was poetry in an open. And plays, I remember that plays, on a freezing cold fire escape.

Often while working full-time and like being in rehearsals for a play at the same time. Hmm. Writing plays on a freezing cold fire escapes and I sentence who should use that in a play. Or a poem. Or a poem. Right.

Or a summary of an F-sad which is what I was meant. Yeah, do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, let's make a podcast. I'll fuck with a Rastake. I can. Hold on, I've just got to make podcasts? Yeah, let's make a podcast. I'll fuck with procrastinac. Hold on, I've just got to make a sticker real quick. Do you want to procrastinac your podcast? Yeah, okay, let's do that. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪

Hello and welcome to The Treesha Mickey Freight, a podcast in which we are reading a recapping every book from Terry Brutcher's Discworld series, One A Time Inchron Lodge, Glowder. I'm Joanna Aigan.. I'm Joanne Hagen. And I'm Francing Carol. And this is part two of our discussion of Winter Smith. Yeah.

Winter's smithing away. This section covers chapters 5 through 8, inclusive. Really excited to dive into this day. Before we dive in, no one spoilers. We are a spoiler like podcast. Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book, Winter Smith. However, we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series, and we're saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepherds Crown, until we get there. So you dear listener can come on the journey with us.

Walking terrifiily into a grave. No, wait, fuck. Follow up, Francine, you've got some follow up, haven't you? First of all, we would like to thank our darling listeners on their dear little legs for telling us all about their Morris dancing exploit. This is in the discord, so as always, I will recommend our listeners pop across there to see the conversation. But I would just like to say thank you for the awesome pictures of Board of Morris. Yeah.

Very into that. We've got Morris dancers. We've got everything. Do you have a bit? Follow up. Yeah, we've got a lovely couple of emails from Elizabeth, a little bit from one of them, just listening to your discussion about the cannibalistic nature of Horace the Cheese.

Hero is reminded of Bob the sourdough starter who eats rats making his bread definitely not vegetarian. Bob is used as a weapon of war later on in the book. He's a character in a Wizards Guide to Defensive Bakery by T. King Fisher. She's one of those authors who I'm sure has a lot of pratch in her authorial DNA. And I've had Wizards Guide to Defensive Bakery on my to read like list, although I haven't got a copy of it yet, for ages, a lot of people are recommended to me, and that's cemented that I definitely need to pick that one up next. Cool. That sounds good. What was your other bit?

Oh, yeah, so I was asking about Miss Treeson's Clockwork Heart, and I didn't find an exact parallel, but I did think to look in folklore of this world, finally for Miss Treeson's stuff. And it weren't over some of the stuff we went over last week with Petr, I think her name was. Yeah. And also noted about the external soul. And this sounds so familiar to me, I've definitely told you about this before, but I don't know if it was in a rabbit

hole or in a completely different context. But the book says, another notion which mistrees and picks up from the Tales of Earth is that of the external soul. A good example is the legendary Russian evil wizard, Kochai the Deathless, who placed his life or soul in an egg. The egg was inside a duck, and the duck was inside a hare, and the hare was lying in a great hollow log floating in a pond in a forest on an island far, far away from Kochai's palace. Amazing. Ah, it's islands. it was a mythological island.

Ah, there we go. Okay, that was it, it was a rabbit hole, there we go. I'm sure I asked this question at the time. How did the duck get in the hair? Ah, magic. Okay, right, we'll be back though. Francine, do you want to tell us what happened previously on Wintersmith? Certainly I do.

Previously on winter smith, flash forward to ice and fire and dying lambs and terrible magic and back to a blustery autumn and to Tiffany's apprenticeship with mistriezin. The haggar the hills is nearly 13 and she's capable enough to work with someone a century her senior, a witch who scares off most youngsters before you can say boffo. But not Tiffany. Oh no. Tiffany is brave and clever, and she can dance the dark Morris if she wants to. I like that. So I just want to have an in this section. Sorry, I was like waiting. I was like, more story. More story. In this section, in chapter five, the witches are arriving for Miss Treason's funeral and Granny and Mrs.

Ewick are flying polite circles. The cottage is being discussed and Granny nominates Tiffany. After some feeble delivery and the ensuing chastisement, wailey, the witches leave with leftovers and spoons. Nanny almost says thank you and Tiffany almost screams. Treason goes to bed and writes thank you notes and Tiffany cleans and writes helpful notes and a grammarist to inherit the cottage but treason gives Tiffany books and advice. In the morning, Tiffany's name is written in the frost and treason takes a sandwich to go. As treason walks to her grave, the village bothers her one last time. Finally, treason dies and death comes to collect.

Tiffany says the words, the gonnigal plays, and then Tiffany cries and mucks the goats because it must be done. In chapter 6 it's also Tiffany's birthday. The winter smith thinks Tiffany is her and the fiegles launch an assault. The winter smith grabs Tiffany slaps and granny interrupts. As Ewig and Anagrama arrive to schrive the cottage, granny takes Tiffany to drop her horse in the river while the winter smith considers humanity. Ananny's house, Tiffany sleeps and dreams and sails. The dream is too real and the third thoughts tangible. There's a Tiffany iceberg and a wintry proposal and the Fiegel's arrived but failed to have a disaster. The floorboards wake up with Tiffany.

She's got a case of the fertile feet. Nanny listens and Granny and Mystic arrive to explain avatars while the Fiegel's go in search of romantic advice. In chapter 7 Tiffany's caught in the story and the winter smith's never met summer. After a meep, you and Grebo sort things out, the Fiegel's make a deal with some travelling librarians while Tiffany goes around the houses with Nanny, and she finds an enlightening book at bedtime. There's snow on the chalk and Roland writes about her party. The wintersmith learns what makes a man, Anagramma almost admits that she doesn't know enough, and Tiffany offers to help. As Tiffany sits up with the dead, and Anagramma is snoring, the wintersmith promises

icebergs. The next day, a baby comes and assumptions made. Nanny and Tiff have a talk and Tiffany reads about a party. A stuck draw manifests a noya who passes on some godly gossip. Finally in chapter 8, Tiffany pulls the coming together with the help of Petulia to assist Anagramma, and the wintersmith agrees to snowflakes. Hogs watch passes, snow falls, and so does something else. There's a cornucopia in the hole in the garden. After some linguistic experimentation, ham sandwiches are bound, although sadly, mine has mustered. In the night, the chickens come. Where? Helicopter and loincloth watch. I am dedicating this week to my favourite character of the book.

So helicopter is Horace eating himself out of a tree, much in the way helicopter might aggressively land. Yeah, no, I think that's how they land. And the loincloth is the scrap of tartan, wrapped around Horace when he gets adopted by the feagles. Naturally. And after all these, it's going to keep him. And also death is here just for things we collect, which are quite like, Miss Treason suggests that Tiffany Kurtzi and she thinks to death, granny egging would find that. Which is don't cut, see. Yeah. No. I guess Miss Treason was brought up before that tradition came in. Yeah, a little bit old. Maybe it was for any weather waxes.

Quite possibly. The girl, weather wax. The girl, weather wax. Yeah, a little bit old. Maybe it was for any weather waxes. Quite possibly. The girl, weather wax. The girl, weather wax. Now, I noted that she didn't call me stick, the girl tick. No. And I feel that it's very much judged just to piss off for any weather wax. I think it's a good natured pissing off though.

I feel like Granny accepts it. Oh, yeah, you'd have to. I like also, Granny, there's a thing, I think it's in which is a broad Granny sort of ran around and asked lots of witches to take her on and witches wouldn't, and she had to wait outside someone's house for a very long time. I wonder if Miss Treeson is one of the ones who originally said no. to originally said no. Oh, and there's a little. Yeah. Wild speculation, that quotes.

Would you like to go first? Because she's as fast. OK. Tiffany remembered the words he had said over the grave of Granny Aking, what seemed like a lifetime ago. On the summer turf of the downlands with the buzzards screaming in the sky,

they had seemed to be all there was to say So she said them now If any ground is consecrate this ground is if any day is holy it is this day I love that moment And yours my love First a quick couple of honorable mentions And yours, my love? First, a quick couple of honorable mentions. Unk. Tiffany's almost screened.

And, walk from the chickens. I have a no-witch. Getting in the... the Kroikberg with um. Yep. I love the um. My actual quote. According to Chaffinch, the Godblind I.O. created the Cornucopia

from a horn of the Magical Goal Meg to feed his two children by the goddess Bisonami, who was later turned into a shower of oysters by a pittede, god of things shaped like potatoes, after insulting resinata, goddess of weasels, by throwing a mullet her shadow. It's now the badge of office of the summer goddess. I always said these to be far too much of that sort of thing in the old days, said Annie with a wax. But of course. True words never spoken. Do you know, a chaffinches, by the way, has a round world, direct parallel?

There's a chaffinches mythology thing, isn't there? A bullfinches. Bullfinches, there we go. Yeah, bullfinches mythology. Let's talk characters, then. Should we start with Tiffany? Yes, let's start with Tiffany. What's going on here, then?

A lot. A lot of things going on, Paul Tiffany. There's a really good line just right at the beginning of this section, like on the opening page of chapter five, Tiffany's stressing about what to do, but the funeral's coming. Like, any oyster dealing with a piece of grit, Tiffany coated it with people in hard work. Oh, yeah, it's beautiful, isn't it? Yeah. Throughout this whole bit, I mean, there's some great stuff with processing, her issues with the winter smith and more teen girl stuff. There's a really good moment after the fans, and this is one of those quotes that just stuck with me as a really good line. He'd come back and that was dreadful, but also just a little bit cool. She didn't think the word,

because as far as definitely new, it meant slightly cold, but she thought the thought, even so, it was a hot little thought. I love that it a hot little thought. That's such a good way to describe that feeling. Yeah, absolutely. And then it grows very quickly into fear. Yeah, because when, well, first of all, when he turns up and tries to grab her, you know, it's really quite a lot all at once and she slaps him. And she does, yeah, her immediate response is to stand up to him and then you have the huge fear, you have the literally the giant iceberg and realizing, you know, it's not just, oh god, he's made stuff for me, he's made stuff for me and he doesn't care that it might hurt the

world. And then he was like, be my bride. And she's like, oh, Jesus. I like during the be my bride. I think she's like, I mean, obviously my mother got married at 14, but that was back in the olden days. And her mother's been very clear that you're not going to get married at 14, Tiffany. You've said the things to do. And that's interesting is that I know Tiffany's the the youngest. Yeah, I think she's

the youngest one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's the youngest of the sisters. But it does make you think, like, her mom's not much older. Really? No, grand scheme of things. The older days is probably, you know, when her mom got married at 14 was probably 20 years ago. But that is the older days when you're 13. Oh, no. Tiffany's handling of mysteries and stuff. Oh, big, tiny, age moment, I guess. Yeah, and the handling of the, the cottage thing as well. There's a great one, anagrammer's sort of comes up to Tiffany at the cottage and what have you heard and it should be me, it would be fair if it was you over me, I'm older

and more experienced. Mm-hmm. And Tiffany sort of thinks herself, okay, but I took the hive through the dark door. The white horse came out of the hill for me. I got my brother and brother and back from the Queen of Ferries. And I dance with the winter Smith who turned me into 10 billion snowflakes.

No, I don't want this cottage. Don't want to be a slave to people who can't be bothered to think for themselves. There's no name for what I want to be, but I was old enough to do those things and I was acceptable. Yes. And yes, she gets frustrated,

she goes outside and she's annoyed at the fieagles, but she's not really annoyed at the fieagles, it's a mystic and granny weather wax and anagrammer and mistries and for dying. Yeah. And the winter smith for a lot of reasons she hadn't had time to sort out yet. That's it. And you know, anagram is coming up and having a go when when she's trying to deal with mysteries and very imminent schedule death. Yeah, and it's I think she deals with it very well, I think. And the video I was thinking really was the burial as well. Yeah. And you try not to think you're walking into the grave and and accepting just in time that she needs to step back and let the villagers bother mysteries and one more time. So that's what mysteries and wants.

Yeah. And even then making the little misstep when she says about the happy endings that mysteries and it's just not interested in. Yeah. And that's, it's something she has to process when she's throwing the horse away and she's just, you know, minutes ago, had that conversation with mysteries and which says, no, we make happy endings for other people, not ourselves. And she's throwing the horse away.

And she's like, is this the person I'm going to have to be, the person who is all edges, who doesn't keep things, who doesn't ever have something for themselves? So, and as a hell of a thing to come to terms with at 13, is that not just at the day? Just at 13. That day, it is her birthday. So, and there's a hell of a thing to come to terms with at 13. Does that not just at the day? Just at 13. That day, it is her birthday. She's being made to throw away the wand-frink that she has

by somebody who's really not being very sympathetic about it. No, very much not. I think Nanny Ogbe had been better suited for that particular task. Some of the Nanny Oggin Tiffany moments are really great when Nanny's sort of explaining that, okay, but you can wrap this guy around your little thingy, you know you know. I think yeah I think Granny knew that Tiffany was in need of Nanny at this point. Like I think both of them, I know we'll come to them a bit more later but both of them seem to know where their weaknesses are in this and like where their other where their counterparts strengths are

so Nanny's like don't judge as me it's like intention so quickly. And like, it's like, I'm going to drop you off with somebody who knows how to speak like you keep him faster. Yeah. Okay. She's got lovely slippers. That'll be fine. Nanny gets a great line when she's explaining to Tiffany, you know, wrapping them around your little finger and Tiffany gets pen and paper and she says it's written down in you somewhere but I on a page you haven't read yet I reckon. Now what do you think about that whole bit? I like it. I like what it's doing. I like this idea. It's not that they're not taking the actual threat of the winter Smith seriously but they all understand like right. If you want them to stop making giant icebergs, you can't go into feet in with a massive sword. You've got to play the game within the story you're in.

And that means taking charge. Yeah. That means stepping into the role that you put yourself in when you went into the dance. That's true. It brought me up slightly the wrong way because you are kind of expected to know the way to handle it appropriate, appropriate man as a girl. And when you don't, you do get criticized. It rubbed me up the wrong way not because I think practice was wrong for writing it, but because it's very familiar.

No, I totally get what you mean. And it is a very familiar feeling. I think it would rub me up the wrong way more if it wasn't for how the winter smith is put together this ferry. Not like, oh, he can't help it, he's a victim of his second. The horrible excuses people make for men, but like, he's not a man and he's learning this very quickly. Yeah, he's a fact of life, and you have to do this. I suppose Nanny August braving it like that because that's how she knows it. Yeah, and I would quite happily take your romantic advice from Nanny August. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Lake Up Bodice, that'll stop him looking at his stupid feet. And then Tiffany basing it out a laughter and she's past some kind of test for that. Yeah, and just a really good way to ease tension.

Yes, that's Nanny's absolute forte. But yeah, it's interesting to see Tiffany interact with three different, very powerful, which is just in this action, actually. Yeah. And receive wisdom from each and how she receives it from each, actually, definitely considering she probably is least similar to Nanny, she receives the wisdom best, or maybe because of of maybe because of that. Yeah, she takes advice without resistance from Nanny. Whereas Granny, I think there's this sense of almost like trying to think around each other so much. There was a really great moment, a couple of in dind the throwing the horse away, but she wasn't crying, which is not the same as not crying, which hits. But when she's throwing away the horse, no thing had any power. You didn't put their shambles and

skulls and ones, well like shovels and knives and spectacles. They were like levers. And with a lever, you could lift a big rock, but the lever didn't do anything work, which is really, we had that seesaw remitory last week and it's that similar thing. It's finding the place in the pivot point. It's the pivot point that makes the lever powerful. Yeah, and you know, Mr. Reason had that with the clock and I think didn't acknowledge it very much. Just because that's the case, it wouldn't make it hurt any less to do, you know, especially when you, you know, imagine being that age and just trying to come to terms with the idea you never get anything frivolous for yourself. No, it's, I mean, it would be hard

to come to terms with at any age, but at 13, when you're just learning, when you're 13 and you're just figuring out who you are and the things you build up around you was so much a part of that. That just, and it's, I'm sorry, I'm gonna have a bringing up Buffy, but there's a really great bit, like end of season two And it's, I'm sorry, I'm going to have a bringing up buffy, but there's a really great bit, like end of season two of buffy where she's in this fight and the person she's

fighting says, you know, no friends, no allies, strip all of that away. What have you got and goes to hit with a sword and she grabs the sword and goes me. And it's, I think of it, because it's a very similar, coming of age type story. And that learning to have everything stripped away from yourself and find that like core. Yeah. Yeah. I, it, it's very important in 40th and years while because a huge part of a story has been her acknowledgement from a really young age that she's not going to be the princess with the frivolous thing. She's going to be the person who helps the old woman in the woods.

Yeah. She's going to be the person who helps the old woman in the woods. Yeah, she's going to be the person who gets things done. And she will, and she just carries on with it. And she's, yeah, she's allowed to be upset and a bit pouty about it. And I think Nanny, Nanny understands that a lot better than Granny. You're also talking about Nanny who is sat there with a fair few trinkets. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I found it.

And it was surrounded herself with frivolity and trinkets and nonsense. It's true, but I think she would not find a strain to be, and in fact we've seen, she doesn't find it a strain to be exactly that person in a family. Without any of that around her, yeah. In a bed and a wolf with every son and a garlic sausage. God, I love Nanny so much. But actually, before we move on from Tiffany as she won last thing, the dream, the horrible giant iceberg dream, the jolly, I like it as a call back to We Free Men with the jolly sailor there and the fact that, you know, that's still how mentally

she thinks of the sea, the painting and the jolly sailor because that's still her any experience, she's still, we need to get Tiffany a seaside holiday. We really do. But the way a good smoke in any weather becomes slowly really terrifying is you realize that you're saying it in a panic tone of voice, but it's all you can say. It's very, um, good smokey swall.

It reminds me of stuff like, are you my mummy thing in Doctor Who? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's almost uncanny value. Yeah, very much. So I thought that was a really good horror moment. Moving on to anagrammer then. Yes.

Let's talk about anagrammer. Nearly crying at the thought of not getting the cottage. There's a lot of self-worth tied up in this. A lot. And we kind of see why this section goes on. I mean, Tiffany who sees the unfairness of anagrammaged in the cottage, you know, she says it to Mystic, it's unfair on anagramm, and she's going to make a mess of it. And then you start seeing like the real anagrammaged

you, who says you put up with all the stuff because every once in a while you saw through it all, inside there was this worried, frantic, little face watching the world, like a bunny watching a fox and screaming at it in the hope that it would go away and not hurt her. And yeah, she's been, I'm sure she had tendencies from a young age, but she's been really hard done by really by being put with Miss Earwig and left there. Yeah, and like she's not learned at any of the practical skills she needs. No, and she can't do what Miss Earwig does and go and become Mrs. Earwig because there's not another handy cell about wizard around for her to marry. And no one's skills she needs. No, and she can't do what Miss Airwig does and go and become Mrs Airwig, because there's not another handy cellar but wizard around for her to marry, and no one's

going to buy a book, or just buy her, she's too young. Yeah, yeah, she doesn't have the foundation to start from there. I thought it was interesting. The way she kind of dismissively talks to people, and then I think it was quite soon afterwards, you see the summer lady talks the same way. I just thought that was nice. Yeah, it was a really good parallel You see, the summer lady talks the same way. I just thought that was nice. Yeah, it was a really good parallel. Pick which and sheep girl. Yeah. The two little, like, cutting the little acid remarks there.

But then, obviously, big difference in the anagrammer. It's all show. All show. And she's, you know, you learn about the beginnings that she's come from, that, you know, they weren't even, they didn't even own the land or the cottage they lived in. And when Tiffany's kind of walking her through the way she needs to do the witching, the way she needs to be able to listen and learn what's going on, all this just to get some power over a crowd of farmers and peasants. And you realise she's been raised to just

not raise by her family, but because she's come from that beginning and then gone to Mrs. Irwig, she's been encouraged to kind of want this power of a bigger kind. Yeah. And the fact that she is after power at all was just a very telling, wasn't it? All-list-a-game power. Yeah. And it's eight years old. All-list-a-help people. Yeah. Well, this is something, you know, I've talked about a length on the podcast. This idea of teenage girls getting into things like witchcraft as a way to kind of claim

and manifest some kind of power in a world that makes you feel very powerless. And that's on a grammar to a T. And she's unfortunately ended up with being taught by the witch that most encourages the kind of witchcraft that teenage girls on round world do, which is not necessarily the helpful kind. Yeah, weirdly enough considering it's the hurt starting off by being a lot of internalized classes and they're going, oh peasants and pig witches or whatever, it is a highlighting moment for how lucky Tiffany was even though she wrote with a lot of money to have the foundation she did. Yeah, to come from the children. With a loving family, the wise grandmother,

the place she feels is home. Whereas, Anagrammer, I don't think we ever find out exactly what a family was like, I think you can. You can assume that there wasn't much there for her and she's looking to claim power for herself because she had very little agency in her life before witching I assume. Yeah. I like, we also get, like, perhaps it's whole thing with class stuff.

Like it's similar to the two-pointer paint, two-prouds, a white wash stuff that we get a lot of with vines. So when Tiffany and Anna-Gramma argue about taking breakfast from the family after they've sat up with the dead, or Tiffany has, and Anna-Gramma tries to say, oh, we couldn't take what little he had, and Tiffany's like, no, we take it. And we'll tell them, it's nice, and we'll say thank you.

And that'll mean everyone has done the right thing by custom, and that's what's important to them, because they don't think they're poor. Everyone around her is poor. But they're not so poor, they can't afford to do the right things. That would be poor. It reminded me of the hog father, actually,

more than anything, it just kind of pratchets attitude towards patronizing charity. Oh the king when he comes to the guy and we brought all this feast and it's like, but I never, never asked for anything from nobody. Yeah and just you have to think of these people as people, not as bit characters in your story. Yeah they're not just NPCs. Yeah, yeah no, one of grandma has bad big characters in your story. Yeah, they're not just NPCs. Yeah, no, Anna Grama has bad main characters in Rome. Oh, she does, yeah. But now she's got to accept the help. So, kind of just quickly going into the Covenant stuff,

along with it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, before we leave Anna Grama, can I just call out the phrase, a festival of blots? Oh, beautiful, yes. First, no ring, yeah, sorry. Please, Karen. When Tiffany brings in no ring. Yeah. Sorry. Please carry it. When Tiffany brings in the cover to Hell, panorama,

and when she says, it's just that I didn't really think they were my friends. And that's a sentence that on its own, I just noticed it because obviously I've got it as a quote without all the context around it in my plan. Could really be read one of two ways. And it's only read one way when you read the book because she's crying and she's grateful. And I didn't think there were my friends enough to help me

but you can also read that sentence of I know my friends because she never treated them as friends she treated them as underlings. Yeah and because of that they're not their Tiffany's friend and their for juniors friend and luckily those two are just willing to help anyone. Which made me spot kind of a fun little parallel, which, you know, the earlier which is books talk a lot about Granny Weather Waxes, the leader that the witches didn't have. And it feels like Tiffany is stepped into a smaller version of that role with the cover. She's sort of the leader that they don't have. Like none of them would say that Tiffany was the leader, but they will do

stuff if Tiffany says so. And then alongside Tiffany, you've got Petrulia's like easy confidence with the pigs in this ready steadfastness. She's almost like a scaled down Naniag. She's like being the Nani to Tiffany's granny. Yeah, just the anchor. Yeah. And just before we move on as well, the line because Tiffany's going around them and you see all the cover and doing, you know, their research, which she thinks and practicing breathing underwater, the cover itself seemed a long time ago. It had been a busy winter. And just to remember that agent, how quickly like you would grow out of these things, like

friendship groups and doing something together. And it does, it goes in a winter. Anyway, I'm just going to get wistful for a minute. Miss Triesen, then. Yes, the hell of an ending for a hell of an ending. I'm going to save some of the stuff with her funeral for later, because you know I do like to talk about death as much as possible on this podcast. She's only 111. She lied about her age. Yes, but it sounds so adolescent. How long do you think she's been saying she's 113? Probably sounds like 110. Yeah, Araka. She jumped straight to 113 and then she stayed there.

I give some advice, the womanly advice of pay attention to your young man. There's a really lovely line, I fear you live not where you love. Yeah. Which I thought was lovely. But don't become a strumpet like Mrs. Ock. which I thought was lovely, but don't become a strumpet like Mr. Zock. She's definitely got a noticeably different attitude to Nanny Org and Groney, whether or not it's just that he's given her the extra generation. Yes, which is quite cool. Yeah, there's no difference there. I think there's a grudging respect, you know, they are talented witches,

but yeah, there's absolutely no... Yeah, she's known them since they were Tiffany and Anna Grammers. Yeah. They'd, you know, it's, yeah. She's seen Nanny's strumpetry. Who hasn't? And her final advice of staying away from beans, I've avoided robustness all my days, I am an old person and what I say is wisdom.

Now that's bollocks though. Yeah, yes. But it looked funny. And stuffing the heart with her thumbnail so that she gets a moment's privacy before actually dying. And the final clank in Tiffany just jumping in with the extra bit of buffo, she was probably just saying goodbye. You can tell that it's a wrench to leave unfinished business, but there will always be unfinished business for a rich, because obviously it's quite big unfinished business right now.

And she's like, oh, this isn't great timing is it? But at the same time, she's like, I'd know, we need to sort out all these dramas. There's the right of way, and there's the cow, and there's the baby, and there's the, oh, God. And it's not resentful. It's just, just give me a minute and the fixing herself up when the villagers come for her.

On last time. Yeah. Oh, and being surprised that they came. Yeah, she didn't expect them to care or want to say goodbye. You know, she'd made a point of terrifying them. And I don't think she ever really acknowledged, she knew she was respected. But I don't think she ever acknowledged that the she knew she was respected, but I don't think she ever acknowledged that the village is really cared that they had the witch there. Then she gets the, you know, oh no, they mustn't see me without my skulls, how's my hair?

Looks nice. Yeah, no, exactly. You mad? Mess it up. Yeah, I think I can't find the quote exactly. The bitch he said about, they'll never love me for telling them the truth and so I chose fear. Yeah. So they'd listen to me. Oh yeah. Which is a very, you know, a really difficult choice to make. It's another choice on top of the choices you have to make to be a witch. Is this I cannot be loved by my community because in order to do so, I would have to bullshit them or be Nanny Arck who's clearly like a once in a generation Marvel. Yeah. And it ties a bit into the thing from last week, you know, that parallel between Tiffany and Roland, the people who are going to always have to hold themselves apart. Do you think possibly she coped with it better than where at Granny Weather Wax has because

she made it a costume? Yeah. So Granny Weather Wax had especially during a carpet jugular. Yeah. A lot of big feelings about being left out and being the, the hag, the croon, the other one, the other one. And I think obviously Miss Treesense had her share of these feelings, but perhaps deals with it better because Granny Weatherworks is being herself.

And she has to deal with these directions to herself and Miss Treesense. It's, you know, it's the difference between I don't get stage fright if I'm in a flade, but I do if I'm doing you know from like yeah Yeah, yeah exactly Yeah, you don't have to get stage fright and you don't have to take it personally if you know It's not really about you. It's about something you've created. It's about the costume you're wearing and The only reason you get offended is if people weren't scared enough of your skulls and cheese. And yeah, Granny hasn't built walls, but she hasn't built up that wall.

She has always been exactly Granny because she's very confident in who she is. The bit actually just after the Christ I picked, and this is when the Gonegal is playing the mousepipes just after Tiffany said the word. I said, a Gonegal could put many things into his music and she felt sunsets and autumn and the mist on hills and the smell of roses so red they were nearly black. And you get mistrason as a human woman who loved things and loved beauty, and picked roses that were so red, they were nearly black, rather than being death who has a black garden because that's all he can do. Yeah, I love that. Oh, except for the golden corn, of course.

Yes. Sorry, death. Grannie Weather Works, then. Grannie Weather Works, then. Speaking of all the Grannie Weather Works, we just spoke of. Yeah. She bleeds into the other characters weather act we just spoke of. Yeah. Uh, we get. She bleeds into the other characters. We can't help it.

Her summary, via Tiffany of witches who are people, what looks up, uh, looking up above everyday chores, wondering what's this all about? And possibly is there anything under the guilt? I've always thought it was very good advice to look up. Yeah. You see more interesting parts building that way. Uh, when you trip out of your own feet, you've got an excuse. Yeah, that's true. Might see a buzzard. Get a bit of warning before you get shot on by a seagull. And if a piano is going to fall on your hand, you've got time to get

out of the way. Exactly. And you'll notice that neither of us have ever been squashed at F by a piano. Yeah. And correlation, definitely equals causation, uh, clearly take our advice listeners. Um, anyway, the piano, the piano dropped like a helicopter or a cheese. Vicious helicopter. Um, we're still not seeing things from Granny's perspective. We're seeing mostly Tiffany's perspective. And I thought that was really clear in the throwing away the horse scene. Um, Because through Tiffany's eyes, she's quite, not ominous, but almost villainous. Granny lowered her voice and in a piercing hiss much worse than a scream, said, that's how it finds you.

And when she takes the necklace, Tiffany tried not to see Granny, whether wax his fingers as a closing claw. Like through Tiffany's eyes in that scene, she is not nice. And I think not only that, she is the possible future for Tiffany. Yeah, everybody knows that she is walking in Granny Weatherwax's footsteps and you know, she is the powerful one now. Yeah, of this generation. And she is having to make the least decisions that we know the Granny Weatherwax had to make. Yeah. I this generation. And she is having to make the least decisions that we know that Grinding weather likes had to make. Yeah, I feel like it's very much, what is it? The old woman coming up like a terrible fish. What? Silvia Platt. Oh, come on, Joanna. Depressing feminist literature

references. I know, but I was still thinking about the waterfall. Yeah, well, even better. Yeah. Grinding weather works, determinedly. Docky Paddle, McLe still thinking about the waterfall. Yeah, well, even better. Yeah. Granny Weather Works, determinedly, Docky Pads will make a picture of the waterfall. No, swimming like a salmon. Granny Weather Works, swimming, aggressively upstream up the waterfall, terrifying. Right, anyway, I like that she's boiling things down to story because we as readers have the perspective of Granny where the wax having to deal with fucking stories

especially with books like Masquerade and Witch's Broad. And you know, when they've tested the first half of it, Mystic is going to give you the answer in some long words. But it boils down to this, it's the story happening, it's trying to make you fit into itself. Having a go at Mystic for wittering as well. Yeah, I put this in the brief mistick bit, but I might as well just say it here. The little where air, because it's more poetical. Yeah.

And grinding kind of snaps and he's constantly a bit irked by mistick. I feel like misticks kind of fallen into the magrat role. Yes, except possibly a more annoying to grind you otherwise. Yeah, bookish. That's the problem. Yes, except possibly a more annoying to Granny Bella, actually. Yeah, bookish, that's the problem. Yeah, it doesn't hold with that. I also very much like the blessings be upon this house sort of runner through this.

Blessings be upon this house at Granny, but in a voice which suggested that if blessings needed to be taken away, she could do that too. And the low bowel with Mrs. A. Oh, the sort of bowing and the verbal sparring. And then you get that moment of solidarity between Tiffany and Anna Grammar just looking over there, but I say, they've just have to let go. For a while.

Blessings be upon our meeting, Tiffany wins. This was a declaration of hostilities. Oh, I love you as well coming, like, meet the end of the hat. So I love you, obviously. I love you as well coming like me being from under the hat. I love you obviously. I love the meat, the little meat. The meat is also- Did you just say meat? No.

It was horrible because for a second I had the mental image of the meat from Doctor Who. But yeah, coming out of the small kitten comes out of the hat and then immediately starts a fight with the big terrifying cat wins and claims the chair, is a almost tropey thing that I very much love. You wonder how much he picks up Viral's Moses for Granny, or if Granny's putting in the hours training this cat to be a menace. Or if she's just like that and it happens

to be an absolute perfect synergy between the two. But yeah, as someone who channels that kind of energy into, if I'm playing a video game and I can fight God, I'm going to fight God. A lot of respect for you. You would fight God. Oh, and the bill hogs past sleeper, which I great name, and introduces the idea of granny moving the pain. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh, and the weird synesthesia kind of wiggly brown rectangle. Yeah, right. Yeah. That was a fun, like you can do that.

You can create these kinds of synesthesia like mental images for all your different flavours of pain. If you want to start thinking about that, maybe not. But I like Nanny sort of saying, you know, as me is the best at it, none of us are too proud to call her. And she's really good at people, which is funny. She doesn't like them. Yeah, which might be why she's good at all. She's, she doesn't like them because she's good at them. So she knows them a bit too well to like them. One of those. I think the equivalent of a mossy lawn.

Definitely a bit of mossy lawn. He knows what he's doing. Yeah, and we'll do it. And that's that. Yeah. Please don't stay around because I've got, I've got to go back to sleep now. Thank you. Do you have anything else on Granny before we move on? And I think that we won't cover later. Mrs. Arewish. Arewish. Arewish. Arewish. Arewig. Arewig. Arewig. I love that she's brought into the buffo. Yes. She's completely salt. When they turn up at the cottage.

You know, there are disturbing stories, dark forces have been released. She's no critical thinking this woman. Yeah, no. And Tiffany's frustrated with it and she doesn't say anything, you know, she takes Granny's sort of leadership there because Granny is not going to give Mrs. Ewing an inch. But you know, she watched over them,

she stopped their arguments, remember the law, she scolded their silliness and she couldn't do that if she was just an old lady. She had to be a myth. And Mrs. Zueig is never been self-conscious, or self-aware enough to need to create a myth because she's just like that. And she...

I don't really know how she gets on with her constituents. Well, I don't think she lives in... I'm pretty sure she's not based on anagrammer. She's not going roundthouses, she's not doing that sort of thing. She's just wanting about writing books. Yes, that's right, yes, because she doesn't know the first thing about childbirth. Yeah. She does things like let nature take its course.

Trust in peasant wisdom. Well, all right, but this is peasant idiocy. She just puts leaf mold pulp pulses on everything. Yes. Yeah. No, I'm the peasant wisdom. That's me. I know. leaf mold pulp pulses on everything. Yes. Yeah. No, I'm the peasant wisdom. That's me.

I know. For any weather wax house, the peasant wisdom. Yeah. Well, Nanny York has this peasant wisdom. Yeah. Nanny York's the good births one. Just the fact that she's managed to hold on to Anna Grammar as well, rather than let her go round the winters.

Yes. And to think that she's enough to give her a balanced education at sphery. Because she thinks her own magic is the only magic, but she hasn't considered the idea of a stedding and what it means to... A man is stedding. Yeah. And I think Anagramma is realising that very quickly, as you can see when Tiffany yells at her, why don't you go in and ask Mrs. Aurelake to help you then, Anagramma to it as stares. I see. I, okay. Yeah. I know. Okay.

So Naniyog. Naniyog, yay. My fave. There's some good lines that very much support my whole Naniyog because the powerful witch stuff. And again, it's really fun because we're seeing her from Tiffany's perspective and I know she briefly turns up at the We Free Mem. This is the first time we're spending

like a decent amount of time from her through these kind of fresh eyes. Yeah. Tiffany stared into those dark twinkling eyes, don't try to trick her or hold back anything from those that have hurt thoughts. Everyone said she's been Granny Weatherwax's best friends as they were girls and that means

that under all those wrinkles must be nerves of steel. She does a little glamour, doesn't any of that. She does and slightly later on, doesn't any of that. She does. And slightly later on, when Tiffany's thinking about the stories that which have told about themselves, you know, in the context of mysteries and becoming a myth, and Naniog told a story too, fat jolly Naniog, who liked to drink and another drink, thank you kindly. And as everyone's favorite grandmother, but those twinkling little eyes could bore into your head and read all your secrets. I like the deliberate misunderstanding in the dictionary as well, that based on the definition of strumpfit and such, Nanny was a very respectable person.

She found virtue easy for one thing, and if she was no better than she should be, then she was just as good as she ought to be. I think that sounds correct to me, don't you? Absolutely. Easiest virtue in Lankar. Nanny, all being practical with the cornucopia. Ham sandwiches. Sounds like a clue, though. Daniel, plans to call with the cornucopia in the kitchen.

A literative clue, though. Ham, so I did. And the onions, I thought. Not even the cornucopia, sorry. No, with tiffinies feet. Yeah. So obviously I'm going to use the onions. The onions.

Fresh vegetables and winter. Yeah, what's wrong with you all? She clocks a lot of what's between Granny and Tiffany as well. I don't think Miss Tix certainly hasn't really noticed what the relationship is there in quite the same way. They're talking about what to do about the Somaladie. And Nanny's a shower, what you can do. That's the way he surprised her.

And Tiffany's like, you mean the Somaladie, oh, the Som the summer lady too, yeah. And this is all in front of Granny where the word too is not amused. And nobody else is allowed to vocalize all of this, of course. Oh, god no. But, now you can get away with it because it's nanny. Yep, yep, I mean, what's Granny good to do? Did you have anything else about Miss Tick? No, I think we can skim over her because we're running real long-were these characters. I know, but it's really good. This is a really good character book. I know, but she's the most annoying.

Sorry, Miss Tech. But yeah, sorry you've got a bit mad, so the winter's with. The winter's with. So I'm wondering, so he did Tiffany's names in the Furns, but in Hogfather, and I think briefly and briefly, man, we see Jack Frost doing the Frost and the ferns. So, did the winter smith like outsource some of his flirtation to Jack Frost? Well, wasn't Jack Frost part of the over spill of magic? Oh, yeah. Well, he was like chatting to the tooth fairy. So I feel like he, I think probably the winter smith can do all of this fern stuff, but doesn't usually. Right. Because, you know, he's

currently doing his human stuff that he's not used to doing. So he's... And Jack Frost is an anthropomorphic personification. And he's like, habits. Yes. And so, yeah. Jack Frost is probably watching from a few places like, like, all right, you did this one then.

I'm not going to argue with you because, you know, you're the... You are the elemental of winter, but not how I usually do it, that's all I'm saying. That is not a fun or a paisley pattern. The dramatic entrance that he makes when Tiffany's outside after the funeral and the clean cottage is very, you know, he's got a billowing cloak, he's looking human now, something like Ripple's run across him and Tiffany thought she could see the trees behind him like shadows And crossing the dead grass with the speed of a skater very scary. Yeah, the terrified of roller skates He's still got the same ice skates, maybe that would make more sense

He's still got the same purple gray eyes. she noted, purple gray and a face sculpted from cold, from fog, handsome face too. The way he speaks is described as though the windsmith had been taught to say the sound of words without understanding how they were. Have you ever tried to speak backwards as in you say your word backwards, record it and then play it back to see if you managed to get it right? No, I can't say I've done that. I have. I imagine it's a bit like that. Yeah, no, I can see that being the thing. And I like this bit. He's trying to pick up humanity in bits and pieces. Obviously, he learns the children's rhyme and then we have these little

interludes throughout the book of him collecting these things. He's been told, my command. And this is the great line. It was as if the winter's mith had heard the idea of being human, but he hadn't learned how to do it yet, which is like mildly amazing on the surface and then gets more and more ominous the more you think about it. And it's got this kind of comic counterpart with the Fiegel's for coming a man. Yes, to learn about romance and chucking them. I'd not been in a knee this time. And a real like a throwback to someone who did a little better, a reaping man, of course. Yeah, death commitment to learning how to be human, but he does it in a... Death comes from a place of caring and understanding humanity in a way

that which is with doesn't, I think. And the bit I'm thinking I was specifically as when he takes the The latest with the dance. Thank you. Yeah, that sounds right. The slow way to the dance and goes around and finds the biggest diamond and the best chocolates and all of that. And off of the stick, whoever she wants and she wants to go to the dance. And in this case, the Wintersmith is listening to a couple kids who's like, all right. So I got some solvers and some positions. Yeah, in this case the Winchesmith is listening to a couple kids is like all right. I'll get some sulfur and some persistence and shopping that got it got it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay fine. Right, see you

later. That's by the mill because it okay. Serial oil. Serial oil that's what you get sulfur. So Roland. How poor Roland colors. Poor Roland. No, Paul Roland. Paul Roland. A Paul Roland in two ways when he's sitting there, you know, checking his stockpiles and trying to think about what he could write to tell Tiffany while the answer yelling at him in the background. Both of them are just thinking of nice stuff to write to each other while dealing with some real forces the nature. And Paul wrote, yeah.

Rollin, I felt a lot more sorry for because he's not got grinding by the wax on his eye right now. No, it's completely ice. He's literally, he's trapped in this tower, he's isolated. And so he's innocently thinking Tiffany would love to hear about the party. It was fun.

And you know, for him, it's a distraction because he can't tell what's really going on. But Tiffany's reaction, he danced with his daughter, who was called all iodine because Lord Diver thought that was a nice name for a girl. They'd had three dances and ice cream. I had seen her show him her watercolors. How could he sit there and write such things?

Good pronunciation of the exclamation marks, sir. I like it, you know, it's Terry Pratchett, short hand. Tiffany is being irrational here. We can tell from the exclamation marks, sir. I like it, you know, it's Terry Pratchett, Shorthand Tiffany is being irrational here. We can tell from the multiple explanation marks, which are the sign of an unbalanced mind. Yeah. Also like watercolors as a kind of implied innuendo on top of what we've just heard about the going to look for nuts

and searching for cookiness. Yes. I feel like that's my extra one other one. We're going to look for nuts. We for cocoon. Yes. I feel like that's my extra one other one. Okay, look for nuts. I'm searching for cookies, Ness. I've gone to show my watercolors. But there's something so, so far. So, about watercolors, there's something so completely, I don't want to say bland because you obviously paint beautiful watercolors things, but you know what I mean? There's bland in the face. Oh, it is. Yeah, if I was to, yeah, if I was to show somebody my watercolors.

My etch is etchings, isn't it? It Showing someone your etchings. It's your, especially because in this situation, watercolors is a very lady-like pursuit in the aristocracy, in the kind of time period where we're not parading exactly but referencing. Yeah, no, definitely. I would say in Sifford, it's the word. Very absolute. I don't think she's got very pigmented. Oscar vision. Wow, I'm a wank. I am a wank.

If you say that, I was going to call them flaccid before I realized that was the word. Flaccid, bro. Right, OK. I know, yeah, sorry, Lissus. I know you've ever heard Sniffit in London as somebody walked past us. Anoia, who gets the great line sooner or later every curse is a prayer. And which on top of don't let boys rain on your laugh.

We find out she used to be a lover goddess and she said to move into the, into the Oh, and which on top of don't let boys rain on your lava. We find out she used to be a lava goddess and she said to move into the into the draws game. I think I might try and make some like really Facebook coded let motivational annoy a poster like with you know how the whole Marilamom row. If you can't handle me at my words, don't you say I'm here with the best, which I don't know she didn't say. An oil like don't let men rain on your lava. Yeah, I love that.

And the God of Storbenz was always raining on my lava. That's men for you, dear. They rain on your lava. And look at watercolors, said Tiffany. Annoye is a ice narrowed. Someone else's watercolors. I'm having so much fun spreading. Terrific amounts of offense on the word watercolors.

Watercolors. Watercolors, right. And then briefly, a little group, Kamiya. Hey. Sulfur. That's when I went to Smith gets his sulfur from group socks. Oh, poor group. It's easy.

It gets vulnerable now. It's a date out of it though. It gets written about the paper. And now groups walking out with someone. I'm very happy for them. Finally, someone with good hygiene. Stanley's got a step up. A lot of sulfurous households before me.

I hope they're in void, robust, just nice. I hope they're living in a room with some ventilation now. A quick location as well before we move on. I speak in a nice location. Yes. Nanny's well ventilated cottage. Again, I just, I like seeing it through fresh eyes. And it's what you were talking about about Tiffany's perspective of things like having

the cups of tea brought to Tiffany's thought. Only grand folk lived in homes like this. There were oil lamps. There's a bath made of tin having conveniently on a cook outside the privy. There was an indoor pump. But Nanny ambled around in her rather worn black dress, not grand at all. Can we have a little mention for a little bit of Irish folklore?

Oh, yeah. On were around Tear Narnog, means land of the young, and it was an enchanted island of the west coast. Oh, yeah. From the young and beautiful and had no illness, were on happiness. So Tear Narnog.

Yes. But anyway,, tear Naniog. Yes. But anyway, land of Naniog, I guess, in this case. Yes. But yeah, she's, she's a witch in the middle of not a witch's life. Yes. It's very interesting. And for all that, she does it perfectly and very comfortably.

The almost thank you, I think, as a little introduction to Nannyog's plightness. And then the kind of contrast with her home life, I thought was quite fun. She's the most polite of all the witches and she is a terror to her daughters-in-law. I do feel like we need a support group. I feel like the daughters-in-law have group, where like whichever ones are off duty, like get together once a week and just slam back quite a lot of whiskey and swear quite a bit. Stand up in a circle. Okay.

My name is, I don't even remember. And I'm a daughter in law of Nanny Ogg. It's funny. But they make a lovely cast, right? They do make a lovely cast, and I would love to say a Nanny Ogg's guest room. It sounds very comfortable. I would, I to say a Nanny Ogg's guest room, it sounds very comfortable. I would, I would holiday at Nanny Ogg's.

Highly recommend five stars. Although that bed does sound like the kind that gives you weird dreams. Yeah. That when they're too soft, you get stuck on your back, you know. Yeah, and you kind of sink into a little hollow. Right, let's take a break. Yeah, all right. I'll go for a little nap and a nightmare and then a...

Cool, I'm just gonna go walk into my grave for a minute. Little bits we like. What did you like, Francine? It'll always be like, I love a bit of silly fractured-y and metadol, especially when it's very effective. So just picked out a couple from this one. Nanny Og was good at listening. She listened like a great big ear. Excellent. very good.

But my favorite by far is when Tiffany summons a large amount of ham sandwiches from the cornucopia, as I says, there was the kind of sound you get when you just stir a cave full of bats. Just the idea of a flock of ham sandwiches sounding like a disturbed cave of bats. As that came from a mind, I cannot comprehend, but I'm so glad existed. Yeah, very much so. Speaking of ham sandwiches, I really want to know,

mustard is always tricky. Pickles of all sorts don't seem to make it. I'm sorry. What is keeping them from crossing planes of existence? Answers on an albatross police listeners. I was a little worried about you as I read that because I know how much you value condiments. I mean a ham sandwich is not a ham sandwich if it does never be a mustard or some chutney or pick a lily, pick a lily, it's good in a ham sandwich. I'm gonna move us on quickly before I start talking about food though.

Weaving names into cloth, I did a quick bit of research. Miss Treeson says there's nothing magical about it. It's a very old trick, Any weaver can do it. You won't be able to read it though without knowing how it was done. As this is a natural thing, it's called name drafting, also known as code drafting, commemorative drafting and personalized design.

I'm gonna massively oversimplify here because I don't have an in-depth knowledge of how weaving works. And Francine says, I can't have a loom draft. You don't have room for a loom. I want a loom loom. Loom loom. I tell you once, I told you. You don't have room for a loom. I want a one a room loom. I tell you once I told you again over zoom no room loom. And draft is like a pattern for weaving and the bait. This is just a quote from an article on link to the explain sent more detail. Basically, I do a simple

string of characters word or morphine phrase or sentence, is named to make a threading sequence. So it could be the name of a loved one or something. The coding signs a shaft number to each character of the selected string. So say A is 1, B is 2, and then you pick which shafts you're going to do a color over and there's a way of changing it slightly each time and it creates a pattern. Okay. And if you are experienced and you understand how someone's gone about it in the first place, you can potentially, you know, with some work, look at a pattern and figure out, oh, hey, they've put that word in there or that phrase in there.

They've used that phrase to make the pattern. Wow. That's cool. Yeah. This is like, people make art with kind of audio waves sometimes, don't they? Yeah. This is kind of like that. Yeah. So yeah, it's for, I'll link to something that goes into it in a bit more detail, because I said, I don't understand weaving enough to explain it.

Cool, though. I like that. Yes, very cool. It brings me joy. Badly written sheep, Franciune? Yeah, badly written sheep. I just love the whole bit. Tiffany reading the romance novel, I thought it was very well done. Tiffany is not shocked by anything.

She's reading in this book, apart from the poor sheep husbandry. Yeah. The rubbish woman living on this farm. What kind of help would she be around the place standing around with lips like cherries wouldn't get the cow's milk to the sheep sheared? I'm sure Nanny Uncle Discreet. That was another thing. Did Marjorie J. bodice know anything about sheep? This was a sheep farm in the summertime, wasn't it? So when did they sheared the sheep? The second most important occasion, the sheep farm's year, and it was worth mentioning. And this gave me big, you trying to analyse the good omen's episode with all the magic.

And I'm sure I'm the same with lots of different things, but it's when you know about a topic and it takes you out of the suspension of disbelief, which you can hold on to for a demon and an angel. Yeah. Having a relationship on earth or in this case, whatever the fuck's going on with the winter. Actually, no Tiffany's got no suspension of disbelief. No, absolutely not. Yeah, small shout out to the fact she's noticing she knows he's the bad guy because he's got a dark horse and a moustache. And she's still got the eye for the old trope. Well, yeah, because she grew up with it with the children's work of fairy tales and the blonde princesses and the brown-haired witches. Exactly.

Yeah, that's why. Speaking of books, the traveling librarians, I really love them at the moment. Especially because I grew up in a village that had like a library van that came through and it was always really exciting. And I like I have such distinct memories of going into that little van full of books and picking something. Oh, lovely. Library vans are such a wonderful thing. I think they've died off of it now because libraries are horribly underfunded. Fund libraries. There's a few that popped up in like telephone boxes and things. Yeah, it was like you can organize sort of mobile library stuff, which I love. And yeah, just this idea of searching the books for survival advice, but they wouldn't consider using the books to keep warm in any other way. It's like that you're here in the phrase and cold,

and you've got a whole thing full of dry books. Yes. And the figures take a piece on them and bring back their rocks because they know they're just not going to survive on the way. Let's talk about the bigger stuff then. Okay. The uncarrying element speaking of freezing together in the library that. Beautiful. Wonderful. What a wonderful way to go. So I was looking into the idea of elementals as a thing, because word elementals used a lot in this book, actually, is clearly pratch it is writing it as a very separate thing to a god.

Yes. It's kept separate here, even if they are getting a bit out of the morphic around the years. And so I looked at what elementals were in a historical myth context. Yeah. So according to Parasalcis, who was a 16th century literal Renaissance man who did alchemy theology, all this stuff, and his subsequent students followers, there are four elementals or four types of elementals. So you got gnomes first. You got dines, undines for water. They look pretty much like you expect from those statues, I think.

Yeah. A watery, what is it called? The Bonde 5 in Quote? Moison bent. Moison bent, yeah, pretty much. The moison bent genre of... Elemental. For sonification.

You've got your silks in the air and your salamanders for fire. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, relevant to this book, particularly, I thought it was interesting. So Paracelsus conceived human beings to be composed of three parts. So you got the elemental body, the side aerial spirit, and an immortal-defined soul. And now an elemental didn't have an immortal soul. But by marrying a human being, he could gain a soul, she could gain a soul, and their offspring would have a soul. So I'm doing finger guns for the audio format. And they don't even make sense visually. But so I just like that as a little the real world fight elementals, whatever, you know, the real world myth. Yeah. And then I was

while I was reading it, just kind of thinking about it's interesting how we sonnify the weather and it's obvious practice was thinking about this when he was doing it. And he makes a point of talking about how uncaring the elements are and having his characters talk about it too. So you know, you know, it's really easy just to go on about a cruel wind or a half frost or like a furious storm and nature's wrath is very familiar phrase. And, you know, Pratchett is a prolific weather personifier. This is the guy who gave us the little storm that could, all the way back in the limpsons. The little storm could. And I just really like, I was subtly encouraged to think about it here.

So like these are both from Nanny, I think. We're packed with stuff he doesn't understand. We can't understand, really. Anger, for example. A blizzard is never angry. The storm don't hate the people who die in it. The wind is never cruel. And then didn't have your mind right, so Nanny awed from the doorway.

Well, you know, it's a bit difficult when you've had a long day and you didn't sleep much and the winter smith is looking for you, snap Tiffany. The fire doesn't care, said Nanny, shrugging hot milk coming up and this is when Tiffany burns herself, when she's trying to be the conduit to warm her little boots, to warm her poor little third outfit, which I thought was interesting because it's both of those quotes from Nanny Alk say, pair pretty well and deliberately and they do cover both the elementals we're concerned with in this book. You got there. Yeah. You got you into, you got your summer. And then Tiffany's little realisation when she's on the hill and she's lonely and she's cold. And what we could do is keep going. You could scream and cry and stamp your feet,

but apart from making you feel warmer, you wouldn't do any good. You could say it was unfair and that was true, but the university didn't care because they didn't know what fair meant. And yeah, I would like to come back to summer and winter, never dying next week. Well, I was actually just about to talk about that briefly. Oh, perfect. Yeah, good. I want to talk about beginnings and endings of things because at the beginning of the book seems the sensible place to do that. I'd say, let's start at the very middle, the very beginning place to end. This is a book about seasons and it's about cycles

and it has this running idea of balance. Through it, there is this idea of beginnings and endings, but also what happens if you don't get beginnings and endings. There is this underlying threat of what if the winter smith doesn't go away and we make comments about, let's have summer all year round. And I think Tiffany's got enough of her to think maybe that's not a good thing.

Because things, if things don't end, what you have is stagnation and we know this is a huge project theme. That's an auditory, dull, bureaucracy type of evil. Beginnings and endings are changes. Or a fairy queen type of evil with your snout. You're unending winter and you're un ending fairy land and you're on ending sweets. But I think it's clearest in the death of mysteries,

which was tough to read and is tough to talk about because, you know, for you in the world. But without going into the more depressing aspects of it, the practicality of this being an ending, you know, people died, it was sad, but they did. And Tiffany thinks about the things that need to be done. And she's thinking about staying up with the dead, but in this case, she ends up staying up in blank cards, which is just a really lovely staying up with it nearly. Yeah. You watched the body and did a few secret and scrunchy things

and dressed them in their best clothes and laid them out with bowls and a bowls of earth and salt beside them. No one knew where you did this bit, not even a mistriezen, but it had always been done. And you took put two pennies on their rise for the ferrymen and you sat with them the night before they were buried because they shouldn't be alone. Which is beautiful. Just quickly on the Bren and Salt thing. I'll link to the full-ask school, this amount is from a thing called the Scoti News, very, very old-fashioned website, brought me a little joy, like an online thing. Nice, love that thing. A short view of Scottish funeral traditions. In older traditions, unfortunately there weren't any sources within the art school, so I haven't website brought me a little joy, like an online. Nice, love that thing. A short view of Scottish funeral traditions. In older traditions, I'm thought

either weren't any sources within the art school, so I haven't gone through and done a lot of verifying here, but in older traditions, the deceased was laid out with a wooden plate on his chest. On the plate were separate portions of earth and salt. The handful of earth was said to indicate that the body would be buried and returned to the earth from once it came.

The salt was a representation of the eternal soul. Some think that the salt was possibly meant to be a deterrent, a spirit, such as sewing the earth with once it came, the salt was a representation of the eternal soul. Some think that the salt was possibly meant to be a deterrent, so spirits such as sowing the earth with salt after some evil dwelling places been burned, and sometimes they were even buried with the plate. Salt assaults quite a traditional deterrent, isn't it? Yeah, it's very salt-obvious. It's very salt-obvious, that's what you make the circle as. Also came up in Doctor Who recently, and Folkings is a a position on the edge of the universe. Don't do that.

I do that. Come on, listen. You know better than that. Tiffany's thinking, Guys, we've talked about edges. We've talked about edges. Talk about edges. We've talked about sea pastations. Clearly the doctor should listen to our podcast. Saying, saying magpie rhymes on the edge of a wormhole was frankly irresponsible of you all. And now there's a lot of magpies. The guy is so many magpies. You know how hard it's going to be to edit out these noises.

Like a flock of ham sandwich, it sounds like. Tiffany's thinking about the reasons for sitting up with the dead and you know there's the joke for the people who wake up and that's not be quite dead. The real reason was probably a lot darker. The start and finish of things was always dangerous. Life is most of all. And you get this contrast at the end for mistrason at least, the villagers bring greenery. Women hurried forward with big bunches of you, Holly and Mistletoe, the only green things growing, as the symbol of newness, of brightness, of life going on, you know, this idea of the evergreen tree becoming the Christmas tree and I'm not going to go into all the history and mythology behind that,

because we're overrun already. But this idea of bringing something that signifies beginning at the end of a life. And while it's unsafe for things to not end, you need endings, you need change, you need cycles. Treeson does still live on as a story. This is the same project that gave us no one has gone into the Ripples. I can't tell what his name's still spoken. Mr. Treeson worked very hard for them. She deserves to be a myth if that's what she wants. And then you get the empty cottage. That was it. One life ended and neatly tidied away. One cottage, clean and empty. And as well as it's not explicitly stated, but as well as living on as a myth amongst the villages, she's living on in anagramma and Tiffany.

Yeah. She has passed on some of that, some of the chalice for the next lot. So you have this idea of beginnings and endings and change being necessary at this book, really embraces, and to cycle back around to the seasons. And this idea of the weatherhouse, they can never be out at the same time, but it talks about the idea of how winter and summer continue on. The dance never ended. Winter never dies, not as people die. It talks about the idea of how winter and summer continue on. The dance never ended. Winter never dies, not as people die.

It hangs on in late frost and the smell of autumn in a summer evening and in the heat it flees to the mountains. Summer never dies. It sinks into the ground in the depths of winter buds form and sheltered places and white shoots creep under dead leaves. Summer flees into the deepest hottest deserts where there is a summer that never ends. And I think there's something this book does beautifully, which is embraces the idea of needing cycles and needing change and needing beginnings and endings, even if they're sad,

they're necessary because can cannot be stagnant. But within those endings, within those cycles, and within those chains, there is something unchanging and enduring. This is a pretty good fucking book, by the way. It was a really good book. We got an obscure reference for Neil Francie. I do. It kind of kind of ties in, not entirely, but kind of. So we were talking about the cornucopia and someone suggested, not even probably, Nanny, okay, that it is made of firmament, raw firmament. And I was like, I know the way I firmament.

I don't really know what it is. It's like sky, isn't it? It's like dust. Or like roof, something like that. And in biblical cosmology, which I didn't know was a thing really, the firmament is the vast solid dome created by God during the Genesis. And what it does is it

divides this, there's a primal sea, I don't know about this. No, yeah, primal sea. I don't remember being taught about the primal sea. I didn't pay a lot of attention in school. That's fair, that's fair. So it's like it divides the primal sea to up for a lower portion. So the dry land can appear and that there's a diagram put in the show notes. But there's like the pillars of the earth going into Tehom or the great deep and then you've got the the earth there and then you've got this dome of fermament and it's keeping everything dry. Right. Yeah. And all the sun and the stars are stuck in the inside of that.

Yeah, okay, that tracks. And I guess it's maybe closer to reality on the disc. Yeah, actually, it's closer to the disc world in strata. Yeah, closer to that with the dome and the sticking and the, yeah. I'm not sure how you get ham sandwiches out of that, but I'll ask God before I find it. Oh, Rinswind. Yeah, that's a man that knows his way around a sandwich. Right, I think that's all we're going to say about part two of Wintersmith. Yeah. Yeah. We could go on a lot longer. I've got some fish firing for it. Yeah,

no, we won't go on any longer. We'll be back, though. We'll be back next week to talk about the final part of Winstmith, which starts in Chapter 9 and goes to the end in the meantime. Dear listener, send us your letters to the Hogfather and any questions you've got for us for our Hogs Watch episode, please. Yeah, we'll read them out. We'll read them out. For listeners who haven't been with us for the full year,

what happens is you send us letters to the hog father. We don't read them out, sorry. The hog father. Occasionally, the hog father drops in. Maybe, we don't know. We use them out. We, well, we ho, we leave out the pork pie. And so far it's worked.

Yeah. Joanna picks up some fancy chutney from Marx and Fences. Fuck off of making my chutney. Picking up chutney. Well, no, no, that's for your Christmas dinner. I mean, the hog father, it's fine. Wait, Tro is starting. Anyway, point is, send us some letters. We'll read them out.

Someone will read them out and we'll answer questions and talk about, what are we doing this year? Going post all the TV adaptation. Go on post all the TV adaptation as well. It'll be a fun Christmas special. It will, hock, hock. There's something shiny. I might put some lights up in the TV? You're going to post all the TV adaptation. You're going to post all the TV adaptation as well. It'll be a fun Christmas special. It will hoax away or something. So I might put some lights up in the background. Right.

Right. You can, you can join our discord. You can. Maybe don't send letters there, because I'll lose them. But the link will be down below. We'll make a channel. We can make a channel. You can follow us on Instagram at the Treeshamer key

frat on Twitter and Blue Sky. I make you fretboard on Facebook at the Treeshamer key frrat, join our subreddit community, ask last TTSMYF, email us your letters to the hogfowler, thoughts queries, questions, albatrosses, castles, snacks, opinions on Mustards at the TrishamakiFratPod at gmail.com. If you want to support this box financially, go to patreon.com forward slash the Treesha Mickey frat where you can exchange your hard earned pennies for all sorts of bonus nonsense. And until next time, dear listener. Don't let us detain you. Water colors. Sorry, I'm really looking forward to just being horrified

about water colors. Watercolours, sorry, I'm really looking forward to just being horrified about watercolours.