The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 132: Wintersmith Pt. 3 (CatchThat Metaphor!)

Starting point is 00:00:00 I don't know how my desk is managed to so thoroughly rearrange itself. Entropy. I haven't done it. I didn't do the thing, but it's done the thing. That's entropy for you. I expect. I can't say for sure. Oh, I'm a fucking idiot.

Starting point is 00:00:17 Slash my posties a bit of an idiot. Oh. I've been waiting on a few things, and I was really worried that they hadn't come yet. And early this week I got an email saying, you know, things being delivered, wanky candle I got from my sister. And it was Royal Mail but it was a tracked one. So I didn't hear the knock on the door that morning so it was lying around in bed like a...strump it. And I got an email, unfortunately not, early in the morning for Garlic sausage.

Starting point is 00:00:44 I got an email saying, like we have left your parcel in safe place and it just said barbecue. So, yeah, no, so I thought they meant like on the rack underneath, because packages get left there sometimes, but it wasn't. There was a sorry we missed you slip as well

Starting point is 00:01:01 that didn't have anything written on it. So yeah, I looked in the barbecue and they had put it in that and there were like four or five other packages in there. They had not all come that day. So every time I've not heard the door, the poster has been putting packages in my barbecue and not telling me. And obviously, we were stacking up and the poster didn't feel the need to like leave you a note saying it inside the box. I guess not. Luckily, everything is fine. And my barbeque surprisingly will start

Starting point is 00:01:28 apparently, because it's been checking it down with rain and everything was dry. But yeah, no, that's where all my packages are. Excellent. No, I have all of the things. No, you have all of the things. And it is getting close to Hogswatch time. Do you think I'm going to go to the Christmas Eve? I getting close to Hogswich time. Do the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the

Starting point is 00:01:46 Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the Grizzly to the the Grizzly to the Grizz up the small tree I bought last year when I couldn't be asked again. Um, that's probably best of considering new dog. Yes, yes, it will be on the table out of the reach of darling little echo. Will it be on the right? She is quite long. Yeah, no, as I was saying that she will usually only go for stashigany. Oh, that's good. Does she, and she knows she can't eat a tree. I'm just, there's something about her eyes, she does look like the kind of dog that would try and fight a tree. I mean that very lovingly. She's very gentle.

Starting point is 00:02:32 No, I know, I mean, I don't mean she'd aggressively fight a tree. She was just a shoe she could take a tree. I'm less certain about this the more I think about it, but we'll find out, I guess. Maybe I'll not put the glass decorations on. Yeah. I feel bad that I've put doubts in your head now. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, feel bad that I've put doubts in your head now. No, no, I don't really think about it. I didn't really think about it because obviously my darling Little Deer was very short and stout.

Starting point is 00:02:55 It's not a jumper. She was just as surprisingly good jumper, but not so much as she could get on the table to steal the ornaments and they weren't hurtable. So it was a point. She was a stumpy little tank. She was, not a sweet little mini fridge. And I really have one completely at the other way now and have what is very much a leaky cryptid.

Starting point is 00:03:15 Yeah, let's say. There is definitely a hint of cryptid about that one, especially considering one stuff only. Yeah. Oh, we haven't talked about this in the book. As Rihanna Pratchett's got a new fake law for cars coming the first up says out on Monday. And she recorded it in Suffolk.

Starting point is 00:03:30 It's about the black dog and those. Yeah, black shark. Yeah. I'm just sending you a cryptid photo I took earlier. Amazing. Okay. Oh God, yeah, no, she's haunted. I love her, she's haunted.

Starting point is 00:03:41 Yeah, yeah. I accidentally left the flash on. I'll put that in the discord lessons. But yeah,. So haunted. Yeah, yeah. I accidentally left the flash on. I thought that in the Discord listens. But yeah, no, that does sound really good. Yeah, it's a radio foreshower, but it will be a podcast. Yeah, it will be available worldwide. You can listen to it on BBC Sounds.

Starting point is 00:03:53 I don't really understand the difference. At this point, between a cat-jump radio show and a podcast. I think the only difference is it's not also available on other podcast apps. A lot of the BBC sound stuff is. Yeah, actually, you're definitely in the stuff. Anyway, we'll link the show notes. Tim Downey's got a folk law podcast as well, which I keep meaning to listen to. Mr Brown Chairman of the Wickham Street Traders and Jobkeepers Association, or probably for some of our listeners, Vettanon's Gail of Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate 3.

Starting point is 00:04:25 Cool. Yeah. There's been some big news we should probably talk about. Oh, yeah. I'm going to prioritise it. We've got, we've got like the opposite way of... Well, in a roundabout way, I've already talked about it because I did mention Mr. Brown of the Wickry Street Treaders and Shopkeepers Association.

Starting point is 00:04:40 And what would he have to say about this news? Hooray! Hooray. Can I get a... Hooray, can I get a wa-hoo? Can I get a wa-hoo? Yeah, Good Omen Season 3 has officially been confirmed by Amazon Wankers. Yeah, we are getting season 3. Are we all ready to cry? Always, drop of a hat. Are we all ready to look wistful under an awning in the rain? Sure. I already am. You've got an awning in your covers. I thought you were just pleased to see me.

Starting point is 00:05:14 I do, but it's not raining. Goodness. I rains indoors quite a lot in my flat, so you know that I probably should get an awning. But yeah, we're ready, we're hypes, we're excited. Yeah, I mean, it's gonna take a while. It's weeks. Oh yeah, I don't think it's, you know, coming next year. Yeah. But David Tennant's gonna be wearing wigs again. That's the important thing.

Starting point is 00:05:37 Does he wear wigs? I mean, no, the build out of the shoe wipe that was his real hair. Did you wear wigs? Oh baby, that's right, yes, the historical out the shoe white belt, that was just real. Oh, that's right. Yes, the historical ones. As you can more, because I'm sure I've seen them with hair extensions. Yes.

Starting point is 00:05:52 I think that has a lot of ways of course. Of course, he did. Wasn't doctor, you've seen the, the, the, the third of the specials. No, I haven't. No, I keep guessing. I'll watch that. Watch it. It's very good.

Starting point is 00:06:02 Yeah. I won't spoil it for you, but it's lovely. We can do it. We can do a spoiler section next week after I've watched that. Watch it, it's very good. I won't spoil it for you, but it's lovely. We can do it. We can do a spoiler section next week after I've watched it. Yay! I've been to it for two weeks by then. I think spoilers of our game. It's still nice to.

Starting point is 00:06:14 Joanna, you announced this most ridiculously non-spoiler spoilers for things that came out decades ago. Yes, something that came out too late. You know what's bad, yeah? Yeah, but I mean, because it came out two weeks ago, like everyone, people are watching it, like right now, I think it's kind of fair to spoil after two weeks, or something came out years ago, it would be something people haven't seen. That's a bad question. Where that's a reason, darling. I don't try to adjust the point, my wheelchair.

Starting point is 00:06:41 But really, she's just in praise. No one just likes this. Except me. Take me with the way. I do. I do. You know, I don't care. I don't give a shit about spoilers. Normally, I'll try and actually watch the doctor,

Starting point is 00:06:55 because they're quite going to give me twists and it's fun to get. It is for the doctor who I've seen. Yeah, I think the problem is obviously we're careful about spoilers on the podcast because that's the thing. But I don't generally mind being spoiled on things. It's why like if there's an adaptation of a book, so like House of the Dragon came out, it was the first episode, the media it was like, yeah, I'm going to go by the book that's based on and find out everything that's meant to happen for the rest of the show. Because then

Starting point is 00:07:22 I'm excited to see how they're going to do it. Yeah. My, uh, almost equivalent, if that I suppose, is I've released what horror movies, obviously. Yeah. And so I just read the Wikipedia plot analysis, a plot, plot summaries, and then reviews of them. And I, now I've got no idea. Yeah. I know exactly what happened to that movie.

Starting point is 00:07:41 I'm never going to watch it. Feel a bit sick having read it. That's much better than that. Yeah. I'm never going to watch it. Feel a bit sick having read it, but much better than that. Yeah, I'm not great with horror movies. I would like to watch them because obviously they're very, you know, people love them. So I'm very respected art form. Yeah, I need to think of them. In the same way I do spicy food is in like, oh, I just can't, but I wish I could, but honestly at this point, I don't wish I could. It's horrible. I'm not sad about being a kind of person who doesn't like to watch people die.

Starting point is 00:08:12 No, but considering, like, I write about TV and film and stuff, I feel like I should be embracing more genre. I used to edit articles for a website about horror movies. Yeah, good point. Well, though, you would really have to read, watch the movies to write about the live plays. Yeah. Okay.

Starting point is 00:08:31 See, I could fact check without watching them because the week's helpful. Anyway, do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, that's like a podcast about horror movies. No, I don't have a room I've seen. No, let's do the final thought of Win Smith, I think. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hello and welcome to The True Show,

Starting point is 00:08:53 make you for a podcast in which we are reading a recapping every book from Terry Bradget's Disc Wild Series won a Stein Minkron Lodge Glowder. I'm Joanna Hagen. And I'm Francine Carroll. And today is part three of Win Smith. Yay! The end, god such a good book. Yeah, yeah. This is chapters 9 through 13. No, on spoilers before we crack on, we're a spoiler-like podcast. Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book Winter Smith,

Starting point is 00:09:18 but we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series, and we're saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepherds Crown, until we get there, so you dear listeners can come on the journey with us. Saving money on the ferry by threatening to stick around. Excellent. Right, follow up. I have things from listeners. Cool.

Starting point is 00:09:38 Get. Tell us about. We got a great email from Josie and Josie and sorry I tried, about condiments. My theory of why mustard does not survive the liminal is twofold. Fantastic, first opening to an email. The first time we hear about it is when a gentleman dies holding a sandwich, possibly in death comments on mustard not making it across. At first I thought this would be because condiments especially mustard don't really go off, they don't die, so there wouldn't be a concept of them in the spirit world. Like emotions are no

Starting point is 00:10:08 longer a thing after desk, which made me think about the association between condiments and emotion. Condiments are generally not added by recipe, but by feeling, especially to sandwiches. Your emotions decide how much mayo goes on. Emotions are like condiments in life. Interprison one experiences anodonia in capacity to enjoy things or feel happy. Without these, you can attend a party or eat a sandwich, but it feels like there's not much point to it. Much like a ham sandwich without mustard is still functional, but one does feel like there's less of a point.

Starting point is 00:10:39 As you've discussed in the last episode, whether in its representatives don't do emotions, hence no condiments. Fantastic. Fantastic. Absolutely. I'd like to add to that, actually, that I don't think we've really explored the kind of liminal nature of a condiment. Yeah. It is very much food. It's an edge substance, isn't it?

Starting point is 00:11:00 It is. It lives in the back part of the fridge and that forgotten space. It sits between the ham and the bread in the same way, the witch stands with... I'm training my stomach. Okay, but challenge. I'm going to fit dramatic music behind that, so. Cool. Challenge, not just for all of our listeners, in that case, why does Jam transport, what does Jam have? I suppose Jam's more technically a condiment. Oh, it's spread. Anyway, I'm a tell us survival limit. We would like to hear your long and unhinged theories about condiments listeners.

Starting point is 00:11:45 And I wasn't something I knew I wanted until today, but now I very much do. Thank you very much. Would you ease it on its own on toast? I think established as the difference between say a jam or a spread or a condiment. Because I would not eat mustard on toast, but I would eat jam on toast. I would probably eat mustard on toast. I'm saying, yeah, I'm saying no. But I'm not mustard on toast. I don't know about mustard. I'm saying, yeah. But I'm not eating normal toast.

Starting point is 00:12:06 Kim Ji and mozzarella is a perfectly adequate crumptopping froncine. Kim Ji is in condiment, isn't it, though? Kim Ji is a condiment. I love Kim Ji. Anyway, other couple of quick little things, Stacey on Twitter could annoy her be and Gamarads volcano got us. I have accepted this fully. Oh, I don't think it's ever

Starting point is 00:12:28 established. Yeah, I think Anoyah must be and Gamarads volcano got us. All right, well done, Stacy. We've played the ship wide open much as Anoyah clearly did. One two or more people are going off. Yeah. I'm too old to have a little stuff on my back there. Yeah. Or I can get rid. Hopefully he's now a minion. Well, he's happily having a little sit down, isn't he? I'll tell you what, I'm going to open a structure.

Starting point is 00:12:53 Yeah, it's a golem. Yeah. Get yourself a golem, that's. And a couple of suggestions of collective names for our listeners, Truthers, which I like, but yeah, has some of our particular connotations. Comrades, again, I like, but a bit overused and lefty spaces, I feel. However, if you want to call

Starting point is 00:13:13 each other comrade, I'm not going to stop you. Uh, Geeple, slash a threat of Geeple. Oh, it is obviously Geeple, isn't it? It is Geeple. Yeah, a threat of Geeple. Constantly, after a mind-of is short for goat people and not geese people. Could be either. I think geese and goats share a lot of characteristics.

Starting point is 00:13:32 There's a lovely day in the village and you wear a horrible goat with friends with a horrible goose. Oh. That'll be a nice sequel. Honk. Oh, we're co-op version of the horrible goose game. They entitled the go. Yeah, one of these go.

Starting point is 00:13:47 All right. You can eat their trousers. You need to get on this shit right away. Oh, right. I mean, millionaires. Before we get on that, actually, front scene, do you want to tell us what happened previously on winter smith? Yes, fine.

Starting point is 00:13:59 No, yeah, I do. Previously on Wintersmith. Tiff parts with mistries and a treasured trinket in quick succession. She's lost her mental and the cottage as an ourwish infestation, but more pressingly, Tiffany's attracted the attention of an amorous elemental. As cool as that hot little thought might be, the wintersmith's proposal leads her cold, and in a nautical nightmare she finds that roses were only the tip of the iceberg. Luckily, Tiffany's now with Nanny Og,

Starting point is 00:14:31 a which uniquely positioned to advise her on matters of the icy heart, fertile feet, and rumbling stomach, actually, past the corner copier, will you? Amazing. Amazing. Kylana, what happened in this last, this final third of the book? In this final third of the book. In chapter 9, Tiffany heads to the woods for some creative corner copiating and wakes up an acorn. Anagrammer is learning slowly and things are getting colder as the snow's deepened. The witches are overworked and the wintersmith gets a nail.

Starting point is 00:15:04 Tiffany, granny tells Tiffany that it's time to go home after a visit to the beginnings of an oak tree. The winter smith stops for sausage and Tiffany visits Anna Grammar and finds prayers to Miss Triesen. The winter smith arrives and asks for a dance, but a whole new Anna Grammar interrupts with a fireball and destroys his snowman and Tiffany takes flight. In Chapter 10, a watching Granny sends theles to pick up a hero and head down to the underworld, while Tiffany flies through Blizzard and stops in two shirts.

Starting point is 00:15:29 In chapter 11, Tiffany gets some belated mail and a gift from Roland. The Fiegles go over the falls, and Tiffany flies over the chalk. She's high on, and as she paints, she becomes herself just a little bit more. In chapter 12, strange things happen. Are you going round the twister? Anyway, the Fiegel's wake up Roland. They want him to save Tiffany by fetching the summer queen from the underworld. While they engage in some weapons practice, Tiffany cleans and plans and thinks about Roland,

Starting point is 00:15:55 who's still engaging in hero lessons in the armoury. Wentworth has called a big fish and Tiffany finds her horse, as the snows get heavier Tiffany sees to the flock. In Chapter 13, and now this is now, and the fire has gone out. Tiffany wakes in a castle of ice, and she's dressed by the light, the winter smith gets a slap for the lambs, and promises her an unending life as he shows around a whole new world. We'll take that one's red. Meanwhile, the fieagles and Roland are down in the dark, and Roland faces down his first bogey. He promises to pay the ferryman and ditch his sword for for the sake of a plan. The summer lady looks like Tiffany and Roland kisses her and makes

Starting point is 00:16:28 a run for it. The wintersmith is promising summer on the chalk and eventually no more deaths. Back at the ferry the fagals finagle their way out and Roland cuts through the bogey with a sword from his thoughts. The wintersmith gives Tiffany a crown and she tells him the truth about boffo and about humans. She sees the end of the story and kisses the wind to smith and brings down the sun. Lastly, Tiffany retires the cornucopia to its rightful owner and asks for no reward. Two weeks later, Tiffany makes visits, wearing her new iron ring. She visits the oak and goes with granny to see the dancers. As she asks about pain and chooses her life, the ring goes in the hat.

Starting point is 00:17:00 Finally, Rob reads a book. Ah, I'll then, Rob reads a book. I'll then Rob. So I've said the first episode of these. Yeah, I mentioned that the intro was a flashback. Flash forward. And you said flash forward, sorry. And you said, but that's not quite what happened. Yeah, no, I misunderstood it, which is, we've read this book a bunch of times.

Starting point is 00:17:21 This is the first time I was like, oh, no, it is like, and then it flashes too after the flash forward. Okay, cool, cool. But I thought it was like she made a choice and created a different future instead of that one where she goes to the ice-coaster instead. And I'm not sure why I thought that, but I was sure of that until this second note

Starting point is 00:17:38 taking read through even. Okay, cool, cool, cool. Okay, good. I thought I'd misunderstood it somehow. Okay. No, it was definitely me misunderstanding. Cool. Helicopter and Lungcloth watch.

Starting point is 00:17:49 More like the buzzard. Ah, it's a classic, classic helicopter. Just shaped a bit like a bird. And for Lungcloth, Roland's chainmail flapping about his knees. Very much Lungcloth. It does flap. Forrest is a Lungcloth.

Starting point is 00:18:04 I've got a bonus helicopter, if you know what I'm saying? Just the line, really. The broomstick barreled through the black lizard. Oh, that is such a good line. It's a beautiful bit of a litteration. I just thought it was. Also, Chris, I know we've had death in the book already, but the ferryman, do we think that is death?

Starting point is 00:18:21 Like, because the capitals are the same. The capitals are smaller in my version, but I don't know if that's an e-book, so that might be nonsense. Yeah. I don't think it is death, but I think it's like... Maybe it's the part of the chapter. Yeah. Do you remember?

Starting point is 00:18:37 Yeah. He got most of himself back, but the rat, maybe he just, you know, chipped a bit off again for the fire and the sick of hanging around in limbo. He had the doors been heightened now. he just chipped a bit off again for a fire and then came around in limbo. He's with the doors been heightened now. Possibly my favorite sheep are joking the books. Yeah, so much to chew on. What is it?

Starting point is 00:18:58 There's so many groans in this book as well as like, it's beautiful. It's like how like beautiful and stunning and terrifying the whole book in. There is also just some fantastic puns. Yeah. Yeah. Terry Pratchett, what a writer. Quates, do you want to go fast? Yeah. This is when Tiffany's having a bit of a moment in the winter woods. There was life down there in the white webs of fungi and pale new roots. A half frozen worm crawled slowly away and borrowed under a leaf skeleton, fine as lace. Beside it was an acorn, just a lovely bit of very vivid imagery of a small thing. It's like a tiny little photograph in the middle of the book. Yeah, it's like a haiku. Yeah, that was nearly mine, so I'm very glad it was yours. Oh good, excellent. I think you've got some similarly beautiful prose.

Starting point is 00:19:49 Yes, this is when Tiffany's back on the chalk and getting out her paint box. Against the whiteness of the snow, all colors seemed bright as if the fact that they were even here gave them some special brilliance. Old harness on the stable wall gleamed like silver, even the brown and gray is that once might have appeared so drab seemed now to have a life of their own. Lovely. It is lovely, it's beautiful.

Starting point is 00:20:11 Right, let's dive right into Carries' it's because it's so much to talk about. Yeah, we do. She's a knee. She is, she is, we see her finally overwhelmed, I'd say, for the like really overwhelmed for the first time in this book, certainly, when she's frightened into babbling. Yes. There's a bit so much. So much. I think we see it a couple times in this book. We saw it a bit with mysteries and funeral and we see her getting angry a lot.

Starting point is 00:20:41 And I think whenever with the witches and with the learning witches, there's this undercurrent of, I've got to keep an eye on my anger because it's a cousin to cackling. That's true, but it, you know, it can be productive. I think unlike, mastering to oneself, iron and after-make-up nail. Yes. The scene where it typically cleans her entire home is relatable. Yeah. Under the fucking table. Under the table. Yeah, under the

Starting point is 00:21:07 table legs. Mum's like, she's not going to hurt. Yeah, it's very, very grounding activity. Yeah, no, that one really hit me. There's this nice running theme of acceptance with her through this section as well? And accepting as herself and accepting that she is not taking the Somalady mantle, that's not how she's going to deal with this situation, she's not the Somalady. Which has, there's a really great line, I'm not the Somalady, she told herself, she'll walk across the world and oceans of sap will rise in these dead trees and a million tons of grass will grow in a second.

Starting point is 00:21:44 Can I do that? No, I'm just a stupid child with a handful of tricks. A little heart on oneself, but probably better that way than thinking you can be the queen. I'll just simulate you, Rower. Yeah, I mean, speaking of acceptance, you've seen it through the book that's more spelled out in this one, that empathizing with the monster, the baddie is what saves her again. And, you know, that's what I think that's been a running theme through the Tiffany books. It was the same with the Queen and with the Hiver. Yeah, very much so. Yeah, learning to go things on black and white. Let's work out what's going on here. You have a motivation. I think that's a lovely thing to, especially to make a thing of in the

Starting point is 00:22:19 children's books, because in the adult books there are a few villains that are just not many, but a few that are just straight up horrible with cars like carsare and yeah. Richie Kiel. Yeah, but I think, you know, yeah, and a children's book. It is nice not to. Yeah, not to make it black and white, not to have this is the bad guy. This is not the bad guy. We must destroy.

Starting point is 00:22:38 This is the bad guy. We must understand. Yeah. This is to make the bad things stop. Yeah. There's a great moment when she's outside the cottage, it is still early in the section of the winter smith starting to dance. The third thoughts tell her, if you dance now, that'll be the end of it, you'll be believing

Starting point is 00:22:54 in yourself and trusting in your star, which is a nice callback to a wee free man. Big twinkly things, thousands of miles up in the sky don't care if they twinkle on everlasting snow. Yeah, that's the thing. I think that's just as she's about to head back to the chalk, and it's a really good pivot point for her of like, I think that's almost like where she's choosing. Okay, I need to understand this because I need to know how to deal with that as me and not as accidental avatar of summer.

Starting point is 00:23:19 Whoopsie. I've worked one that way. I've got about her anger actually, was I liked the grimobe parallel, the grimoan you parallel when she attacks the winter smith and she says something like she wanted to send him scuttling to hide behind the cabinet so to speak. Yes. She wanted to call her a the nose. Yeah. When she wakes up in the ice castle and she slaps him, like a wave color came flooding back into her mind, it was mostly the

Starting point is 00:23:55 breadness of rage. How dare he to kill the lambs. Yes. Also, I just really enjoyed when the lights turned into a dress and she was shocked angry, and wanted a mirror and felt guilty, and then decided if she did find a mirror, she'd only looking at to check how angry she was. Exactly. And then she's just a long time for a while from here. But your words, though, wouldn't you? If you're wearing the Northern Lights. Obviously, you would. Obviously, you would. But yeah, when you're still 13, maybe you try and justify it to yourself

Starting point is 00:24:26 in the way you don't when you're 30. Yes, I think you have to spend some time searching for mirrors to accept that actually you just want to see yourself. Yeah, she's very weather wax actually, isn't she? I think weather wax is so weather wax for that. Wonderful. No one could accuse me, really. Mm-hmm. All right. So the winter Smith. The winter... Oh, one last thing, Antifini actually. Oh, he's one last thing. I never even thought it was one last thing. Go on.

Starting point is 00:24:53 She finds the horse in the fish. Yes. And there's this lovely... There should have been a roll of thunder and there was just went with in the next room. And it's a really great moment because it is this kind of, of course, this happens because we're in a story and everything is very story shaped. And of course, that's how he finds her. I mean, this particular story's been referenced in practice before. I can't. Yeah, I can't remember which which is book it was that I think Nanny Ogg said something

Starting point is 00:25:23 like, oh, you know what, those things are like, yeah, you drop a ring in the ocean and months later or a fisherman comes up and guts it and there's your ring happens all the time. Granny's like, does it? He's like, yeah, I've heard about it. Have you? Doesn't sound like something that happens. So I was like, something you hear about happening. And then this, it does because it's all a story. So that was like something you hear about, how about that? Yeah. And then this, it does, because it's all a story. Uh, winter smith, yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:47 Mm-hmm. Uh, so he sort of becomes a man. He tries his best. He does, he does. He gets the darkness behind the eyes, which is a theme we've had in other works. Yeah, that was a big good. The theme, a thief of time thing.

Starting point is 00:26:00 Ah, there we go. Um, this idea of figuring out humanity. There's a lot of kind of auditorishness, I think, around the winter smith. Yeah, although not in the same reluctant way. It's not, I feel like the auditors come off as more malevolent, although they don't think of themselves as malevolent. Like they think they're doing what's for the best, but I think it's a different flavour of it. Yeah, and they don't embrace it, like the wind smith does.

Starting point is 00:26:32 The point is they feel guilty the whole time, and the wind smith is so small a trees to feel the pull of the ground to be solid, and you know this is what he's trying to do, he's trying to become more and more. A man through the whole thing. I love when he's learning to speak. Oh yeah. There were a variety of noises from the roar of a gale to the rattle of the sucking of the surf on a shingle shore after a wrecking storm at sea. Well that was a tank twister. Somewhere among them was a tone that seemed right. But yes, just imagine like a man sitting there, mouth open, just making nature noises. And then he sings a beautiful opera that he heard once when he was blowing

Starting point is 00:27:11 around near the opera house and doesn't know he's not meant to sing the orchestra as well. Wow, wow. But no one told him. No, he would. It is really fun how he, despite claiming humanity, he remains like quite terrifying, both actively and as well as sort of in his naivety. Yes. Well, I say it is in the way that, you know, practice tried to lay out, he's terrifying in an enhanced way, but in the same way that, a storm is terrifying in the same way that the winter is terrifying. Yeah but in the same way that, as storm is terrifying, in the same way that the winter is terrifying. Yeah. In the same way that we look at an AI, that would be all powerful and then gets terrifying. Here is something with far more power than us who would let us go as a collateral damage

Starting point is 00:27:57 to making the planet peaceful. And it is very order to react to that here. Yeah, that was what it was thinking with the, but without that malevolence of stuff. But there's a moment where he's where he's almost flexing to Tiffany with this moment, I am a gale wrecking ship, so thousand miles away, I'm freezing water pipes in a snowbound town, freezing the sweat on a dying man,

Starting point is 00:28:16 lost in a terrible blizzard. It's like, there's just, I wouldn't be into someone if they started dayin' that to me. You know? Yeah. But you know, that's what he's good at, so you can see. He's good at watercolours. He's good at freezing the sweat on a dying man and a blizzard. Yeah, we've got a bunch of issues.

Starting point is 00:28:38 You've got to find your niche. Yeah, yeah, and the summer lady, I'm sure, we'll find it a little more. It's not impressive, then part part of the ritual. Yes very much so you know in the same way that you do have to wonder if some of those female birds of power and eyes really Really right those odd little dancers or whether they're just like I can see you've made an effort here Thank you. I appreciate the thought you put into this, even if perhaps the moonwalk wasn't necessary. As I said, every Friday night, several years, it might be. It's the weird clubs, didn't we? Yes, the terrifying with the naivety, you know, he's offering this stuff to Tiffany,

Starting point is 00:29:23 and he doesn't realize what he's offering is horrific. He doesn't know what horrors he's planning. She thinks to herself because it will make everything clean and new and theirs. So I'm like, oh, you don't want it to be all with, yeah, never a little bit of summer. A little bit of just that. Just for you, a little bit of summer. Yeah, everything will die once and then it'll be over with. Yeah, and then everything will die eventually anyway. So if we do it all at once, then the net amount of deaths over the eternity will definitely go down. So what's the problem?

Starting point is 00:29:57 I can just see him with a whiteboard pointing at things, explaining this, if it looks awkward forly too. Iso-colour's the... What's that used to worry about it? Look. Cool fruit, wintersmith. The terrible sequel we were glad we didn't get. Oh, we made it so much worse. Summer.

Starting point is 00:30:22 Oh yeah, much better. Yeah, we're not going to see her. Yeah, we're not going to see her as a summer. Summer. Oh yeah much better. Yeah we're not what it's here. Yeah, we're not what it's here for the summer. Snaky. Yeah we love the summer. I love the summer. She is absolutely fucking terrifying in a much more obvious, not not more much more obvious in a much in a much hotter, not in that sense term. But also in that sense, I guess. There's a lot of, there's a great moment where Tiffany sees the personness in summer, humanity, not more than she sees it in the winter Smith. She's beginning to remind Tiffany a

Starting point is 00:30:58 lot of Anna Grammar, which is a comparison, I think you made earlier a bit of the book, the She Girl Pick Witch. Sheikal Pickwich. Yeah. She didn't sound wise or nice. She was just another person who happened to be very powerful, but not frighteningly smart and frankly, a bit annoying. Yeah. I like how Pratchett points this out with quite a lot of God's doesn't he, or see for not for beings.

Starting point is 00:31:19 He, you know, all the way back to color project, like fantastic, I think. Definitely lost hero. You just, you learn about these, you know, all the way back to the color of magic, like fantastic, I think, definitely lost hero. You just, you learn about these, you know, really charismatic and beautiful and powerful beings, obviously, and then he's like, they are a bit dim. Yeah. Just see, you know, like it's not all on. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:31:37 If you say I'm just sure. Flap, flap, flap. Um. Uh, voice as well gets described as a voice full of unpleasant echoes and hisses. Yeah, so summer is very much a snake, isn't she? Yeah, it really leans into that. What do you think the winter animal would be? I'm surprised we didn't get an immediate parallel, or if we did, I haven't.

Starting point is 00:32:01 Yeah, they do seem very different shapes. Um, I felt like the winter is, I mean, there's, there's bits in that, but I was reading it earlier, you know, I stroke the fur of the sleeping bed, even her cave and course in the blood of the fishes under the ice. And I think there's something in there. Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm, yeah, I'd say something cold blooded, but obviously snake's cold blood and summers got that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:23 I think the thing about the winter smith is that he doesn't feel alive in the same way. Because summer is about life, it's about green and lusciousness and so even in the heart of her death space there is life. Yeah. Whereas winter smith is just, it's not, it's a frozen rubbin. Speaking of the heart of a death space, you took out the bit where you were going to read the summer scene and then I made you put it back in So yeah, do you want to read us that that most honestly one of the most beautiful bits in the book even though it's like a massive contrast to the rest Although because maybe yes, although and because God I'm eloquent

Starting point is 00:33:01 And then the summer filled her up it must have been only for a few seconds, but inside them it went on for much longer. She felt what it was like to be that breeze through green corn on a spring day, to ripen an apple, to make the salmon leap the rapids. The sensations came all at once emerged into one great big, glistening, golden yellow feeling of summer, which grew hotter. Now the sun turned red in a burning sky and Tiffany drifted through the air like warm oil into the searing calm of deep deserts where even camels die. There was no living thing. Nothing moved except ash. She drifted down a dried up riverbed

Starting point is 00:33:35 with pure white animal bones on the banks. There was no mud, not one drop of moisture in this oven of a land. This was a river of stones, agate's banded like a cat's eye, garnets lying loose thunder eggs with their rings of colour. Stones of brown, orange, creamy white, some with black veins all polished by the heat. Here is the heart of summer. It's the voice of the summer lady, fear me as much the winter smith. Yeah, and that I feel like that's a really good example of why a lot of this wants reading allowed. And I think if you're reading perhaps it, and you come across a paragraph like that that you think is beautiful, read it aloud because yeah, just take some time to read it aloud to yourself.

Starting point is 00:34:17 It's so fun. It's like, yeah, in the same way that poetry, I feel, is almost always best if you can, you know, find a quiet spot and read it aloud to yourself. It's like a fucking great big listening, golden yellow or Tiffany drifted, just these internal rhymes and alliterations and the care perhaps you put into these sentences is so apparent and just absolutely gorgeous.

Starting point is 00:34:43 I just... Yeah, that's reading the work of a master, that's someone who's crafted this paragraph, not just written gorgeous. I just... Yeah. That's reading the work of a master, that's someone who's crafted this paragraph, not just written it. Yeah. And there's bits like that all through Desqueld, but I think we really are at the peak of that in these few books. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:34:56 You know, it's a dud and going pastle in this one. And yeah. It's wonderful moments. So, Granny. Granny! Oh, is he so nice in this one in comparison? It's wonderful moments. So granny. Granny. Oh, is he so nice in this one in comparison? She is nice, but gentle.

Starting point is 00:35:14 I should say not nice, even like nice. Is she speaking of gentleness right at the beginning when she finds the oak shoot, yes, shoot from the acorn, a pair of skinny, but powerful hands gently dragged and sculpted the snow and dead leaves together to make a tall thin wall around the shoot. And then I like she leaves no footprints. You never teach anyone else everything you know. Can I say, rather, rather lovely bit of symbolism, Tiffany doing something cool and granny coming along to build a little protection around it. Very much, very much a little, a tree version of what's going on between the two of them, I would say. And just as with the two of them, not letting it be seen, not letting Tiffany know that

Starting point is 00:35:56 she has that protective wall around her and not letting Tiffany know right away what she's doing with the acorn until it's better for her. And not letting dear, nibble branches of. Yeah,'s better for her. I'm not letting dear nibble branches. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I would expect no less of you and Tiffany realises that she was going expected to help all along. I know. I have to say though, I think even so she's being a little uncharitable towards Granny and I think there's room for us to interpret not another layer but a slightly tweaked layer and that Granny might not love Anagramma, but I think Granny does not want to see. Anagramma come to harm and I think part of it was protecting her. Because it was really the only way

Starting point is 00:36:47 that Anna Grammar was going to grow up to be a competent witch. Yeah, she needed that help and she needed to accept it from people. She wasn't, she was never gonna accept that sort of help from someone like Granny Weatherwax because she was our weasers and she had to get out from underwires to them

Starting point is 00:37:01 because we still I don't. Oh, I don't know. to get out from underwaiwish to them be. I wish. To a lie, do. Oh, I know. And it's also about protecting the village, making sure there is someone there who can care for those people. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:14 The studying. What I like about, you know, depending on how what granny's motivations were, but I like, you know, as Tiffany thinks about it, it looked good, although which is but no, Mrs. Iwigs, people can cope with Tiffany aching, organised all the other girls to help out and didn't tell anyone. Yeah. It kind of relies on everyone knowing that Tiffany's grannies, despite not official, she's not grannies, but you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:39 Despite not official, she's doesn't live with her, she's not training with her in that sense, but she's, she's grannies which. Yeah, yeah. And I think people do know, don't they? Because once you've heard about the chalk supporting her against the Queen of the Parrys and the Hiver, I think you know that she's granny's, don't you, granny, calls the mountains. And Granny makes a certain show of it at the witch trials, you know, giving Tiffany her hat, being there as part of it. Yeah. But I like that as a detail. And yes, the speaking of the horse coming back, Granny, understanding all along that it was going to pike was it. Oh, it's meant usually a salmon. There are obviously real world, not real world, but

Starting point is 00:38:24 round world stories about the fish and the thing. I'll try and remember to link a couple of the nice ones. Ah yes, the vision the thing, my favourite thing. The fish and the thing. One of Esau's lesser known works. There's no moral to the story. He just didn't know what Jolary was called. But I like the payoff of when Granny says, I see you've got your little drink it back. It's right after Tiffany's had a go at her. Yeah. And so yeah, with the absolute lack of response to it, it was like having a bolt of lightning and not getting any thunder.

Starting point is 00:38:56 And that is the the share one of the shared characteristics of Nanny Auckland Grading weather acts of course in the house detention is building. There you go. Yeah, it's going to is building. There you go. No. Yeah, it's gonna be much more right to it. Don't cry too much, it's gonna be. Yeah. I think Nanny generally does it a little bit better than Granny.

Starting point is 00:39:13 Yeah. Granny's a little bit more easily baited, sometimes I'd say. I'd say so. Yeah. Speaking of Granny bait, let's talk about anagrammer. Yeah, all right. This whole thing of being taught while refusing to acknowledge that you are being taught is like a tough

Starting point is 00:39:32 read because it's kind of relatable. Like I've known people like that, but I'm sure I've also occasionally been like that. Yeah, I expect so. Yes, it's teenager. Yeah, I expect so. Yes, it's teenager. It is, it's very teenager. I like Miss Hawking is a good witchy name. That's more Lanko witch than Anna Grammar is. Yeah, they're calling her Miss Hawking by the end. Miss Hawking, be careful, she turns into a terrible monster when she's angry.

Starting point is 00:39:59 I've seen her, she's so robust. I think that's a very good compromise she's found there. Become the Boffo Monster on the beach. Yes, I think she'll have... She'll get to have a bit more of a normal life than mysteries. Because was that? Yes. I love when she appears as the Bofo Monster for the first time. It was a witch, you could not mistake it.

Starting point is 00:40:18 It was probably a sheep, but some things are so horrible that worrying about how to address a letter to the Miss Silly had a hat with a pointed card like a snake, like hard relate. Big gender filter. But are you going for to horrific to address a letter to, probably, are you? Yes. That's the gender of the day. I like that. That is the gender of the day. Somewhere around 18 Macbeths. And the just nice funny little studying joke. She runs off the winter smith in her horrifying witchy things practically, you know, she sends Tiffany home, oh, I'll be down tomorrow

Starting point is 00:40:50 with some physics for you little boy Mrs. Carter. Yeah. Oh, I mean, even her attack on the winter smith is a nice little thud thing, isn't it? She's doing it fireball. It like fell off. That was a very funny line in the middle of that scene. Well, so, back in good honor, you know? Yeah, I know, a lot of her story arc in this.

Starting point is 00:41:09 She's done really well here. And I think this is a really good example of when confidence, when the kind of confidence the anagrammer has really does win out because Tiffany is having a massive crisis and doubts herself quite a lot. And this point is all catching up with her a bit. And Anagrammer is able to go, well, fucking run then. Take the decent broomstick.

Starting point is 00:41:33 Get the fuck out. Get the fuck out. Yeah. Yeah. Also, also, I will say, I feel like she kind of lavaed on this boy's brain, a little bit fight, a little farala, she threw the fireball at the water.

Starting point is 00:41:50 Fantastic. That is correct, I think. Lava on the rain, not the other way around. Yeah. Oh god, that sounds like a 90's song, doesn't it? We'll solid-picking advice. Wait. Don't trust me.

Starting point is 00:42:10 Roland. What are you? Uh, he's having a bit of a day of it as well. Oh, it is. He's, his whole thing is some of the funniest down the saddest bits in the book. So many sad bits in the book. Um, let's better go and see my father. It's well passed lunchtime. If I don't see him every day, he forgets who I am. Yeah. Not followed by the extremely obvious parallel of hating the, I hate things that try to take away what you are. Yes. I want to kill all of them. When you take away memories, you take away the person, everything they are. Yeah. Which is a particular tough read as well, because you can't ignore the full context. If this is before to, you're pretty much diagnosed with a reaffirmed Alzheimer's, but it was very oof moment there. Very oof moment. And the limbo, the underworld thing is very much reminiscent of

Starting point is 00:42:58 a horrible ward of Walton times, you know. Yeah. And a scene in the Magnus archives of anybody can... Oh, yeah. And if anyone got to be one of the seasons of that, that's in. Anyway. But I like this idea of him as a real hero, and Granny explains it to Robbers, your two brave, he must do it in fear and terror, like a real hero should, because he's got to overcome the monsters in his head the ones he brings with him and when he does face down the bogal he sort of whispers to rob

Starting point is 00:43:30 I was too scared to run yeah that's fine but you didn't run that's what matters yeah it's fine don't worry why yeah it'd be fine if you got your feet stuck in tar the point is we're okay with the next story and and Rolanders has has to but it's funny because we know it's the opposite. I have that moment of self doubt that because he scared, he can't be here. And when he was standing there with his two heavy sword just before he went down, it was very billbo vibes to me. Oh yeah. And then eventually he got a sting, of course.

Starting point is 00:44:00 Yes, he did. And goes absolutely ape shit with it. Just to promise they can come down with some sandwiches and make a day of it. Absolutely. I will also say he went closer with a glow crackling around him because no man wants to be a coward in front of a cheese. I was a wonderful part of that particular arc. Yeah. And him realizing that he does remember the figgles they are real. Okay, one of them was a cheese that rolled around of its own accord, but nobody was perfect. You know, horror is good. Yeah, I love horror. Oh, blue cheese and humming.

Starting point is 00:44:35 Sorry, I've got to acknowledge the worst, best pun in the book. Nah, nah, nah. For now, it's our sensible charcoal magazine. Oh, no, I was doing a horror's impression. Oh, I see. I thought you were just doing a terrible pun laugh by the fact that I cruned to himself. Cheesy crune. Also, Roland sends Tiffany watercolours.

Starting point is 00:44:56 Watercolours? Watercolours. Watercolours. Watercolours. Different punctuation. Oh, because he thought she was jealous of having watercolours, maybe. Yeah, he thought she'd like to try them. He didn't hear back about the watercolours and he thought, maybe,

Starting point is 00:45:15 oh no, that was insensitive of me. She doesn't have any nice things up there. She'll be cross about that. I'll send to some watercolours. And it's got turquoise. That's a fancy one. That is expensive, isn't it? But it's delighted by some watercolours. And it's got turquoise, that's a fancy one. That is expensive, isn't it? But it's delighted by the watercolours. Yes. Big vibes from monstrous regiment.

Starting point is 00:45:34 The brother what's his name? Oh, the her brother Paul who playing Paul's. Yes, a great rainbow box of hand. That's very, her, those very him. Yeah, so I want to paint rainbow bobs of hand. That's very, that is very him, yeah. It is. And then just quickly before we move on, Wentworth is growing up a bit.

Starting point is 00:45:53 I like that he's completely unaffected by the experience of being bait for Jenny Greenteeth. And he's now a very good fisherman. He seems like he's got a touch of the magic around him, isn't he? Just enough to drop the lure right in the mouth of the pike. And I love the, and it weighs at least 20, it weighs at least 30 pounds.

Starting point is 00:46:10 It weighs at least 40 pounds. Tiffany putting her hand on the scale of it. Oh yes, yes. And D3 pounds. Oh, and I'm all dirt and lovely ginger sauce. Yes. And just lastly, dimfnie Astute. Dimfnie Astute, who I want to acknowledge, I'm not sure if it's Dimfnie or Dimfnie or I might have written it down wrong and one of these large

Starting point is 00:46:37 sets of notes. Oh, it's fine, it's lovely. My devil way. This is sort of one of, I'm not going to read out the whole thing, obviously. I can. That would be silly. But this is one of my favourite things that Pratchett does, which is the very long run on story with little interjections. Yeah. So you get like, he walked funny, you know, lifting his legs like a trotting horse, and also he was kind of like shiny, but we get all sorts in here.

Starting point is 00:46:58 It does not pay to make personal remarks. We had a bunch of well wolves in here last week, and they were just like you and me except we had to put their plates on the floor. Right, yes, this human will ease that down at a table. And it's the, you've already got the comedy of the winter Smith sitting down and saying, I am human, I have eaten human sausage. Why would I want a curtsies because you never know. I read and sausage.

Starting point is 00:47:22 That's very death. Yes. That's that hog father, isn't it? Gosh, he does the same thing a lot. This is when he goes off to have a curry in my head. Ah, yeah. Mort. Mort, yeah, but that's the thing. He does know how to eat a curry. He enjoys it and does it regularly. So there are little bits of you in human that death does understand. Yeah. But then there's lots of other stuff.

Starting point is 00:47:45 He tries to get drunk and he doesn't quite manage it. Yes. That was an interesting one. There's a lot of death stories we're sort of trying to learn more little bits of humanity. Wakingness ensues. No. Here's Ragh Tag.

Starting point is 00:48:01 Here's our Ragh Tag Bunts, tag bunch of anthropomorphic personifications with a complex about not being able to eat normal food. Or did it? Winter Smith. Death. Considering some as the one with the cornucopia, she seems pretty chill about, you know, not experiencing things like human sausage. I should not have put that like that.

Starting point is 00:48:27 I'm so sorry listeners, locations. Spanner rather skin past that. Big fucking ice palace. Big fucking ice palace. Which I like that Tiffany is immediately not impressed, but classously offended because all only rich knobs have all this space for not doing stuff in. That's true. That's true.

Starting point is 00:48:49 And this one has a bit of furniture. Yes, chairs that exist for ladies to lounging. But yeah, this is very, perhaps it's good at this building places that have been built by not quite humans, like Death's domain with the, you know, the furniture that's attached to the wall and you can't use it. Yeah, like the bar of soap you can't use and then the actual used bar of soap next to it is that the solid towels. Yeah, and yeah, they know the shape of it.

Starting point is 00:49:19 Or in Reaper Mander the wall that comes out of everything's the right shape. The uncanny valley thing where it's just as bits you can see and it's not right, but it's so close to being right that it makes all the bits that aren't right more wrong. Yeah. But good try. I could try an interior design then, but... Oh, and Tiffany, in the spirit of inquiry, seeing if the fig leaves come off the new statues. God, God is easy to art.

Starting point is 00:49:48 It does sound like there were quite a lot of burns. Okay, that's fine. As long as there were enough earned, it's suitable for a 13 year old guy. And yes, the underworld, which we talked about a bit already, but Sharrak and ruin. Wonderful, horrible. No. I like the detail that Fiegel had been there before

Starting point is 00:50:09 and knew it when it was a proper underworld and had a tree had a dog and whatever before the bogals moved in. Yes. And now it's all good. If you don't supervise it, you know, wear and tear on your underworld. Yeah, this is what happened.

Starting point is 00:50:23 This is the, the liminal equivalent of brambles growing up in your garden. What you need to do, you need to get a man in. Yeah, well, the imaginary sword. Yep, every couple of alternatives. Have a good clear route. Have a good fair before it gets to this state, and that's important because now they're in the foundations. Yep, there's not much. Look at Terry down there. They're coming across the river. Why have you gone on strike? I don't know.

Starting point is 00:50:55 I've froncing the metaphors run away again. Quick catch it. Get it with the sword. Catch that metaphor driver. Let's take a break. Yeah, all right. I think that's the best. Little bits we liked.

Starting point is 00:51:14 Little bits we liked. First ones are a little bit sad, I suppose. But after reading and kind of being briefly annoyed by the shrine of treason, the villagers have set up to, if any kind of realises that what they're doing is similar to the tobacco packets that were left on, Granny Eakin's sheep hut. She has a... She says, Granny Eakin, who hurts the clouds in the blue sky, please watch my sheep. Granny Eakin killed my son, Granny Eakin fined my lambs. They were the priors of small people

Starting point is 00:51:43 who were afraid to bother the gods in their high places. They trusted them what they knew, and they weren't right or wrong. They were just hopeful. And it's so wonderful because it comes at a point where Tiffany is dealing with a god. Yeah, I was very reminiscent as well of the kind of,

Starting point is 00:52:01 Catholic especially, but I think a lot of monotheistic religions that end up with people worshiping saints or other small smaller people. Or like a monster's regiment where they worship the Duchess instead of Nuggin because it's more relatable and. And Catholicism is the idea of intercession, you pray, the pray to assayn't to ask them to intercede with God on your behalf. Right. But it's also been written about as a form of paganism that survived, basically. Yeah, and all the ideas of Terry Pratchett, these ideas of small gods that come about from just home to the prayer. It's been from the moment.

Starting point is 00:52:47 So, Granny is getting robbed to face his fears. And so she makes him spell Marmalade. Ramlad. Ramlad. Ramlad. And there's just it's a little running, practical joke. It's not the first time it's come up with Marmalade being a particularly difficult world word.

Starting point is 00:53:02 It's an amazing Morris. Don't expect me to pronounce word tricky words like marble aid. Yes. And I was like, and I'm sure it's turned up in other disc world books as well. The amazing morris example was the one that came straight to mind. But I was also sure it was a joke from like the original Winnie the Pooh, the AML books. And it's not, I checked. Okay. I was conflating two different things, which is a joke about I will not be being the best at spelling, so he spells happy birthday, hippie-pappy, bithub.

Starting point is 00:53:31 Yeah, that sounds right. And a little A.M. poem about, called the King's Breakfast, which is about Marmalade. Yeah. Which is one of my favorite little, I love A.M. poem, so I had a lovely little time trying to find that, and instead just reminding myself, the the dairy made said fancy and went to tell his majesty. Ah, Marmalade.

Starting point is 00:53:53 It's all just a funny word, isn't it? Yeah. It adds into our whole right to us about condiments and jams, but why is Marmalade funny? Yeah, do. Don't tell us that joke if you know it. No, please, we've heard it. Oh, so the iron enough to make a nail song. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:54:17 Yeah, A, like, so the full poem is in the book. As much as I always highly recommend the Steel Ice Band Winter Smith concept album, skip that song, or it will get stuck in your head, and every time you read this book it will come back into your head. It's totally disagree. I absolutely love that song. Listen to it, live with it in your head, is that I have done for the last one? Okay, it is beautiful. It just won't go far with Marmalade. It does go well with Marmalade. But I was looking for origins of the poem as we do. As we like to look at these things.

Starting point is 00:54:49 There's a territory branch in conversation with Dr. Jacqueline Simpson, which you've linked to before is on the Focal Society website. It's recorded in 2010 at the Discworld Convention, but little excerpt from that that relates to this. So Jacqueline Simpson, one of the things I like about Focuro and Discworld, it's not only rural, it's all over the chalk, but you also have urban folklore. You have children's games and beliefs,

Starting point is 00:55:17 and then Terry practices, oh, the rhyme I made up for winter Smith. And Jacqueline Simpson says, oh, the thing about INF to make a nail, I can't remember if that had a real. You asked me about it at the time and I've never found a source for it, but like you won't convince that it was real or any rate something like it was real. I think I remember it being in a sort of science for kids book back in the 30s.

Starting point is 00:55:41 And Prachi, you know, reminds me definitely invented the ends of the other hands enough to hold a child, but I don't think that's quite it, but that's what it is in that conversation you was having with Jacqueline Simpson. And you had a bit of a further quick look into this, which got not quick. Yeah. So I did my usual winter smith searches through the old.found up project site, the old newsboards, and somebody mentioned that I and enough to make a nail. Google suggested to them that it originated with Professor C.E.M. Joe, but by the way, if you don't know anything about him, a fascinating character, I'll link something about him. But my Google foods, as the commenter doesn't extend to where he said it. The last three nines mentioned by Tiffany later don't seem to be there.

Starting point is 00:56:29 Pratchet says and reply, believe me or not, but I've never heard that version when I was a kid and still now you get slash got these the human body contains enough iron to make half an ale articles to make an ale article. So I dug up a list of ingredients and assembled some from scratch finding suitable uses that would work on Tiffany's weld. The farm self would be a pest control and fumigant for example. An Edwardian version says it would take iron in the blood of, it would take the iron in the blood of a thousand men to make a plow share. Grimmer, I would say. So this person's Google food may not have extended and I took that as a challenge.

Starting point is 00:57:10 So first of all, I'm guessing where he saw it and somebody else below says, was that Joed was quoted at me using scarecoids there, but if you religious sites who were basically saying he was some kind of, you know, he was going, they were using him as a bad example saying that he was saying that humans were only made up of these things, you know, enough fat for seven bars of soap and enough potash to blow up a toy crane was one of the crots and I don't know if he said this on the radio but it's not where I found it. It wasn't in the list that I found anyway. I'm potash enough to blow up a small crane. Also whatever. I know.

Starting point is 00:57:55 Anyway. So it had been lazily taken out of context and misreferenced by a bunch of religious sites. There was this one Christian book as well, that put it down to a 1951 book called Rediscovering Faith or something. And it wasn't in that fucking book. I went to Teresa fucking book. It was in a book from a few years earlier, Paul's philosophy for our time. It is quoting B.A. Howard's list and the list in the subsequent paragraph from B.A. Howard's book, the proper study of mankind it's called, he says he is quoting a doctor T.E. Lawrence might not go any further back so we're going with this book. Enough water to fill a ten gallon barrel and a fat for seven bars of soup, carbon for 9,000 lead pencils, phosphorus for 2,200 matchheads, iron for one medium-sized nail,

Starting point is 00:58:49 lime enough to whitewash a chicken coop and small quantities of magnesium and sulfur. It's not very frantic. And these talking about this, none of them are talking about it in the context that these are the ingredients to make a human. Yeah. They all go on to talk about these are philosophers. Yeah. But they're talking about out there is this secret ingredient that makes life basically, that makes faster. The dark behind the eyes. Yes, the dark behind the eyes, the soul, whatever they're calling it and different people

Starting point is 00:59:16 call it different things. But there was one paragraph in this chapter of Howard's book, which I thought was very practical. So it is with man, he's certainly a compound of carbonate iron, which I thought was very practical. So it is with man, he is certainly a compound of carbon and iron, but he is more than that. He is also a bundle of inherited dispositions, a student, a citizen, an artist, a shipwright, a statesman and a dreamer. Some people regard him as an enterprising ape, others are full in angel. Still others think that both ape and angel are inextricably mixed in him, that he is once a Carlson, a bit of protoplasm and the image of God.

Starting point is 00:59:52 Carlson, a bit of protoplasm going on my business, God. Externally he is a member of a complicated human society, eking out his living on the surface of a globe. Internally he is a mass of swarming fears and hopes. In short, he is a living thing, and as such, he is in a state of flux, he's evolving. What he will once he is not now, what he is now, he will not be in a million years hence.

Starting point is 01:00:14 This time of entity does not yield up its secrets under chemical analysis. Wow, which I think is perfect for this book. Yeah, and if Pratchett never read this and subconsciously internalised it, I'm sure he would have enjoyed it. It's a very hymn book. Yeah, this is last to look at the origin of that poem by way and more or look at what happens if you allow Francine on Google unfettered.

Starting point is 01:00:40 It's fascinating. I really take it as a challenge if someone says they couldn't find something. Well done. That was really interesting. Patrons, you may get something a little more in depth written up because believe it or not, I stopped myself there. One last little bit from me. When the Fee Ghouls are preparing to go over falls, and then he says, you know, no man has ever gone over these falls and lived to tell the tale. And just the fun that he's in the room. Mr. Parkinson did. Like, all right, yeah, but he had a really bad stutter. Yeah, but he wrote it down. My fall over the falls is quite interesting. It's just such, such, which is a broad bickering.

Starting point is 01:01:22 It is. We haven't had a lot of nanny and granny banter in a world and that brought me a lot of joy. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, ridiculous. The last little bit I've got is the shape of summer. Tiffany is talking to the summer lady. Yes. What's your real shape? The summer lady says,

Starting point is 01:01:41 the shape of heat on a road, the shape of the smell of apples. Nice reply to him, he thought, we're not helpful, was that? But still, I enjoyed it. And I thought, again, what's the parallel here? What's the A, we could all think of fun shapes of summer and winter for ages, so please listen us, send them to us. Yes, answers carved into the smell of an apple. Thank you. Or on the label on a jar of mamalite. of an apple. Thank you. Or on the label on a jar of mamamlite. So for me, I reckon the shape of winter, what's it going to be? It's the crunch of frozen grass, probably, or the crunch of ice on a puddle. That's squeak, you know. That bruise from the first time I fall over on the ice. Not the last.

Starting point is 01:02:26 The first one is very winter. The last one is just despair. Yeah, with the over-fuck sake of winter, the old fucking hell. I think there's something in the smell of the last leaves dying. I was thinking about it, I was walking today and obviously the leaves will fall in, but they're still, I don't want to say rotting, they are rotting, but it's not nasty, but they're dying and they're damp on the parts. Well, we don't really go into the part, into decay, you do, as part of the cycle of seasons in this book, which is interesting, because would decay be a winter or a summer event? I think if decay is autumn. Yeah. Not in a bad way, you know, it's part of a cycle, but I think

Starting point is 01:03:11 of autumn is decay and spring is growth and summer is established and winter is what happens after the decay. Yeah. So they both have a part in it, we think. Yeah, I think they are the in-between. So they both have a part in it, we think. Yeah, I think they are the in between. It's the way they're my favourite seasons. Yeah. Because, you know, I love a bit of liminal, liminal seasons. Well, it's all the biggest stuff. From the little shapes of winter into the bigger ideas of winter.

Starting point is 01:03:38 Oh, nice. Thank you. Yeah, just kind of the, the effective way that fracture invokes winter, invokes evokes both, I suppose, provokes even. I am glad to be reading this in winter, by the way, as a note, I think it definitely helps us get into the field of it, well, scheduled. As a way, it's very hard to imagine being warm and I think that's the kind of way you need to be when you're reading this book or it helps. All right, one that maybe is an experiment, we should try reading a bit of it in July and see if it helps.

Starting point is 01:04:14 Coolest down. What's the project book we should free to warm up? One of the, oh, probably small gods, right? There's a lot of desert. Oh, yeah. And it makes you glad you're not there. Get I do. Oh, sorry, sorry. Anyway, you kind of, because this is in these tiny rural communities as far as I think, it does a really good job of kind of capturing the desperation and the bleakness of the winter. Like, before we had modern amenities to make it as bearable as it is. And things like the wolves entering the tunnels that they'd have to dig between the houses. I thought was a wonderful kind of example of say, oh my god.

Starting point is 01:05:00 Like, I know that was a really good way to show how bad stuff had got the wolves entering the tunnels and the birds freezing out of the sky. And using the cornucopia, because otherwise people will just go on fed. Yeah, fucking lucky, it was there. And it was there in that village and those villages, but you know, actually it's a good point. I mean, it's not really explored how many people died. No. you know, actually it's good for me, it's not really explored how many people died. No, yeah.

Starting point is 01:05:28 And writing wise as well, I kind of wanted to highlight the contrast that he does really well between saturation and desaturation, and you told your quote went into this really well, the kind of the intent that colors against the white snow. Exactly. And there's a few of these throughout, so when the oak tree is first growing, the green seems reflect off the snow around it, winter still colour, but the tree glowed. And like you said also, like a wave colour came flooding back into her mind, this is when she's arguing, more than arguing with the winter Smith. When is when she's waking? Because she's sort of temporarily in the land

Starting point is 01:06:08 under waves, the watchor. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And yeah, but it is, I would say, the bright colors returning through the winter desaturation. That's kind of the imagery you're getting there. And I love it.

Starting point is 01:06:24 I'm very affected by the idea of spring returning. Just like it's it's a plucking at the heartstrings ones. Like here comes the sun, the beatle song makes me very emotional. And more so now because I listen to it a lot during lockdown. Number one. But yeah. No, hard work. I mean, there's a reason I've got a cherry blossom tattoo. There's a really beautiful line from a Philip Larkin poem.

Starting point is 01:06:50 The trees are coming into leaf like something almost being said. Hopefully. I mean, there is a lot of very good poetry about winter and about spring, obviously. The snowman by Wallace Stevens. One must have a mind of winter to regard the frost and the boughs of the pine trees, pine trees crusted with snow and have been called long time to behold the universe shagged with ice, the spruces rough in the distant glitter of the January sun and not to think of any misery in the sound of the wind. I can't go somewhere. It's very... Yeah. Vuxly.

Starting point is 01:07:25 Yeah. But just the bleak and the sparse and the lack of life is quite an impressive thing to write so effectively. And very... A few writers do it very well and Fractured is definitely one of them. I also just wanted to acknowledge how very narnia quite a lot of this is. Oh, yeah. I'm not sure we really went into the CS Lewis of it all, but especially in this one,

Starting point is 01:07:47 the Room of Statues. Yes. In the ice palace, it was very line, which more very, very ice queen. I did read a little bit of the line, which in the wardrobe this afternoon, just to reacquaint myself, oh, it's charming. By gum, one of them says the one point. Just on the bleakness, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention one of my very favorite poems, Slash Christmas songs in the bleak midwinter by Christina Rosetti, which go and find a beautiful

Starting point is 01:08:13 version of it to listen to or go and read it aloud to yourself. And it's just there's something very warm at the heart of the bleak of the bleakness that poem captures perfect me. Also just a little shout out to Fimble Vetter, the winter that precedes the end of the world in Norse mythology. Oh yeah, one you'll be familiar with because you performed a mom log. I don't know if it mentioned the winter that you'd have read around it because I know you. There was definitely a bit of Fimble Vetter in there. Yeah. And I just a little sniff that I found to do with that. And the mythology might

Starting point is 01:08:50 have apparently be related to the volcanic winter of 536, which resulted in a notable drop in temperature across North and Europe. And I makes me think of the winters like this in winter Smith, and how many particularly bad ones we've had over the millennia and what people in different time areas put it down to. Yeah. What if this year we did not kill the king of the bean properly or what if this year we didn't dance the right dance. This year the Morrison come and winter turned into a miserable autumn.

Starting point is 01:09:28 And of course, we like a volcanic winter because we've talked before about that volcanic summer winter with all the writers and the Byron and the... Yeah, and the ability to do it. And the nipple nightmare. In the year without winter and the eyeball nipples. I really hope people listen to this. You've been out summer. You've been out summer. I really hope you can. I've been out this season.

Starting point is 01:09:55 I've been out before. Yeah, when we're talking about you without summer. Yeah. Volcanic winters are one of my favorite little things I like to read lots about. Mm-hmm. Nuclear winter, does that count? Or... one of my favourite little things I like to read lots about. Nuclear winter, does that count? Or it's like it's a different flammable. Yeah, that's fun.

Starting point is 01:10:12 Yeah, understandable. Yeah, so the kind of, the the scaringness of a winter like that, as I said, is very well done as well. And I think that's particularly in the in the bit about the birds freezing. So birds frozen to their twigs, horses and cows standing still in the field, frozen grass like daggers, no smoke from any chimney, a world without death because there was nothing left to die in everything glittering like tinsel. Yeah. It's like always like the White House decorations from Alania Trump was involved, wasn't it? Oh, yeah. Horror fighting.

Starting point is 01:10:51 Yeah, it's answering. Speaking of horror. Yeah. Segway. You know, I nearly had a good Segway with scaryness and then I just thought of the White House. There we go. To jump on your saturation, the color point, there's, um, to jump on your saturation, the colour point. There's... So jump on your saturation, darling.

Starting point is 01:11:09 When the wintersmith settles into his physical form, colours crept in, always pale, never bright. And there was a rider shining in the comfortless light of the mid-night of the mid-sum, winter sun. And there's the thing, this book has some incredible horror elements and it does it so well. It does a slow build in a short amount of time because the prologue opening chapter, the flash forward thing, establishes

Starting point is 01:11:36 what Tiffany is eventually going to have to face. And it's scary and it's horrifying. The lambs. I've forgotten it by this point. Yeah, exactly. You know, her father almost throwing himself on the fire, but because that's been established early on, then yeah, the book doesn't have to keep ramping to it

Starting point is 01:11:52 because we already know it's coming. So the sort of beginning and middle section of the book is relaxed and it's funny. You know, you have the chickens and the ham sandwiches and watch your tear, fancy feet. Yeah. And the book relaxes for a bit until you start getting into the section and it's building towards that happening and the fire going out and it starts bringing in these

Starting point is 01:12:13 horror elements. So we're racing towards the confusion and you get this amazing ominous tension building. The italic text. Oh, yeah, these little interludes, sometimes it with thaw just a little and then frees again that fringed every roof with icicles and at the next door they stamped the ground like daggers. Mm-hmm. Yes. daggers. Such a great word and uses it a couple of times. It's such a good terrify winter word. Absolutely. And there's right at the very beginning, like the opening pages of chapter 9,

Starting point is 01:12:45 once the forest had been pretty, now it was hateful, dark trunks against snow drifts, a striped world of black and white, she longed for her horizons. Very snow white, the disn animation, the ride of Meeleve. Oh yeah, that used to really freaking me out on the circuit. Yeah, I can see it, I haven't watched it in many, many, many years. I can see those things very clearly. And yeah, and like I said, the descriptions of the winter Smith, we talked about the dark behind the eyes thing.

Starting point is 01:13:14 And they had been like this audit or light creature that finding his voice and the way it does relevant to all these things. And what you said, the birds frozen to their twigs. And it's the everything glittering. Yeah. It's the fact that this horrifying end will be pretty. Yeah. And that's the tingles not beautiful, tinsles not gorgeous, tinsles not pretty. Pretty. It's pretty. It's pretty. It's a tinny word and it's a tinny, horrible, sharp feeling. Yeah, this whole kind of flavor of description in this part of the book is my justification

Starting point is 01:13:56 for hating minimalist Christmas decoration. Yeah, that's very satisfying. Speaking as a maximalist, there's just something underlying about the whole thing. The whole book reminds me of Horfrost, which is one of my favourite parts of winter, and it was so amazing like being in the southwest when it was really frosty a few days ago, being up on crunching through it. But there's something about how it's all these tiny, sharp pieces. It's so evocative. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:14:22 And you can spend, it takes me twice as long to do a dog walk in horror forest because I will just soften, look and take photos of every little bit of nature covered in these tiny daggers. And it's harsh and it's uncaring. The uncariness. And yeah, and beautiful within that. And then yeah, the book has all these little moments, Tiffany resting in two shirts, it was a dark sleep. And then as we start heading towards that flash forward, the chapter that ends with Dan, we miss each other flock. Next day was a good day, right up to the point where it became a tight little bowl of terror. And something little something, it's actually used as a couple of times, a hot little thought, it's just something really like sharply, quickly poetic about it.

Starting point is 01:15:08 It's like stochastor rhythm that builds up to this horror stuff. And then sort of as a contrast, but equally horrifying, you get limbo where everything is slow and blurred and fuzzy around the edges. Yeah, I'm up scarier for me. Unreal. Shadow's partied and a very old woman in tattered thread-bear-close, shuffled past, dragging a large cardboard box behind her.

Starting point is 01:15:33 It bounced awkwardly as she tugged at it. That, to me, sounds like something that fractured a scene. And it's equally horrifying in a completely different texture. Yeah. And it, it's kind of, there are two types of horror in that underworld as well, right? Because you've got the, the needle teeth and the, yeah. And you have this, there might be sharp edges, and I don't know where they are and what they are. Yeah. It's not this, there might be sharp edges and I don't know where they are and what they are. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:16:07 It's not confronted. It's round the corner and it's in the shadows and it's in the corner of your eye, but you can't really see it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, God, it's good writing. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:16:18 But having like really evoking that feeling of that harshness that dagger like cold makes the calmer and the happier moments even more contrasting with the prayers. You know, the prayers of small people to afraid to bother the gods. There's something sweet and calm about that moment right before everything kicks off. Yeah, like a quiet moment of acceptance that this is what the people need. This is a success at a lot of hogfather, isn't it? Oh yeah. And there's, when Tiffany's painting and she realises, and I thought you'd like this as an artist, I think. It was all about light and dark. If you could get down on paper, the shadow and the shine,

Starting point is 01:16:59 the shape that any creature left in the world, then you could get the thing itself. Yes. It's a very witchy way to think about it, I think, to try to capture the thing on the paper. It is. And it's gorgeous. And there's so much of the book in just that one little phrase of creating the thing itself and needing to understand the shape of the things. Yeah, to do it in writing, not so much.

Starting point is 01:17:23 Another thing entirely. Yeah. And all of this pulls together, you know, this horror, this ramping up, these great little thudding moments of comedy in it, by being this gorgeous story, shape story, and you know, what exactly what I'm going to say. Barra belief. The power of belief. Oh, it did do you do? Oh, we should have had a little sound effect for the power of belief.

Starting point is 01:17:43 We need a little power of belief, fanfare. I'll see if I can find a bugle. But the wintersmith being defeated, not by being beaten, but just by the very human nature of belief, Tiffany explains to him this idea of boffo, how humans change the world by fooling themselves. And to go right to Hogfather, it's that, you know, a mere ball of flaming gas would illuminate the sky versus the sun coming up. You get this sweet moment, she'd cry later for the winter Smith who wanted to be human. I cried there. That was my little over-the-edge moment just at Tiffany knowing she would cry for the winter

Starting point is 01:18:27 smith because he... the empathy she shows in this after showing so much terror. Yeah. She's a wonderful character Tiffany. I think part of what makes it so wonderful and makes the empathy so possible is, you know, if you think back to We Free Men when she kind of feels she becomes one with the chalk and has the power of it all within her and just for a second gets to understand everything and, you know, the other side of that coin is knowing it for a second and having to give it up. She knows how to give things up. She could, if she wanted to, you know, try and have the power of a goddess and dance with

Starting point is 01:19:02 the winter's myth, but she doesn't. And she's given up power before. She starts tapping her foot again though, granny puts a foot on. No. No. I like the granny notes to look for that as well, because granny would have. And there's a very sweet moment. You get this payoff to this theme of balance that was introduced at the beginning, center

Starting point is 01:19:23 of the sea, so she's pulling the sunown and she has to maintain the balance and she remembers what the old Kelter said. There's a wee bit of you that will name Milton Flow in my best Scottish accent. And she kisses the winter's mouth. And brings the sundown. That's so me. And speaking of poetry, because obviously there's the really, really obvious thing that calls to mind as well, frost to flame, which is the fire and ice poem by Robert Frost.

Starting point is 01:19:52 Do you have it in front of you? Of course I have it in front of me. I also haven't memorized it. It's a very short poem, but it's one of my favorites. Some say the world will end in fire, some say in ice, from what I've tasted of desire, I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, so I think I know enough of hate

Starting point is 01:20:09 to say that for destruction, ice is also great and would suffice. F*** you're doing episode on that poem. I am an episode on that poem. Wow, I like that. And for more fixation of a Robert Frost poem on your business card. Yeah, honestly, there's no one going over here. What a fucking book. Francine, have you got an obscure reference video for me? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:20:36 You sound really sad about it. I am, but I don't want to move on from that scene. I just want to live in it. Obviously, I don't want to live in it, but it's just, oh, fucking hell. You've already listened to this. I've, you know, we don't even recognize it for every single word of it. So, who evolved winter? Who evolved winter? Old evolved winter. Yeah, the one just fits through back his head and sung the over-chord to who evolved winter by the composer, what are you doing off? I read that one about myself before. So the composition itself is likely, I got this from one of the Discworld fandom rookies, likely drawn from Piotr Iliic Chakowski. Chakowski, why did I just struggle with the one where I know? Piotr Iliic Chakowski. Chakowski. Why did I just struggle with the one word I know?

Starting point is 01:21:26 The other Yvich Tchaikovsky. Yvich? Yvich? Symphony No. 1 in G minor, I think, called that in English. Winter Day Dreams. And so it is that the bit of rush in there translates briefly to it's got colder again or that the colds come back. Yeah. So, yeah.

Starting point is 01:21:51 Beautiful. We'll link to Trichovsky's Symphony No. 1 and everybody can have a go at doing better rush than me. Oh my god, I love a bit of Trichovsky. Everything should have more cannons. I doubt the symphony does. No, but score more things for cannons. I will have with David Arnold about the good omen score. He put some cannons in. Celestial cannon. I don't know any instrument.

Starting point is 01:22:22 Right, we're just going to run away with another metaphor if we keep talking. Catch that metaphor. Catch that metaphor driver. That is everything we are. That is everything we are going to say about winter Smith. We could go on a lot longer from sure we've all got things to do with our days. We're sorry to have kept you so long. Thank you for being here. This could have been an email. This book is going to be an email. That's going to be an email.

Starting point is 01:22:54 Absolutely, we do not need written proof that we're like this. This is why I stopped doing the transcripts, no, there isn't. No, there isn't. Right. We are going to be no other reason. No other reason. Right. We are going to be back sometime around Christmas Eve also with our special Hogs Watch episode. You have until Friday, literally just 20 seconds to get in your letters to the hog father as well as any questions

Starting point is 01:23:27 you might have for us. We can do a little Q&A bit. Sander's stuff, we need you guys to make content for us basically. Yeah, no, come on, it's Christmas. We've got a bit to do. We need material for the bit. Yeah, Sander's a good letter to the hog father. We promise they will get to the hog father. Sander's a hog the bit. Yeah, send us your letters to the hog father. We promise they will get to the hog father.

Starting point is 01:23:46 The hog father bit. What is his self-fulf hog father bit? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think God would have been doing this too long. Send us whatever you want, basically. Yeah, why am I saying send us stuff. Send us stuff. Send us marmalade thoughts. Not all of those. Any condiment or spread you want the difference between a condiment and a spread? Why is that called a great thing? It's on the liminal nature of mustard.

Starting point is 01:24:10 Thank you again for that, you know. It's beautiful. I suppose you wanted to know how you can contact us. Until I can't imagine they do it at the point. Until Huxwatch, dear listeners, you can. No, you can do it afterwards as well. Join our discord link down below. You can follow us on Instagram and the true show make you fret on Twitter and Blue Sky at make you fret part on Facebook and the true show make you fret. Join us on Reddit, ask that's TT, SMYF, email us your thoughts queries, castles, snacks, condiment thoughts, marmalade jokes,

Starting point is 01:24:40 and letters to the hog father, the true show make you fret pod at gmail.com. And if you want to support any of this nonsense financially and why would pod at gmail.com and if you want to support any of this nonsense financially and why would you go to patreon.com forward to that, the true show makey fret where you can exchange your hard earned pennies for all sorts of bonus nonsense. Yeah. And until next time, dear listener, just to make it interesting, he put lots of dragons in it. Dragon, then the Marmalade. I've just realised we got through that whole book as without mentioning that it was Wes my cow that Rob was reading.

Starting point is 01:25:23 that was Wes my cow that Rob was reading. Cutter. That's not cool. Wes my crew.

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 132: Wintersmith Pt. 3 (CatchThat Metaphor!)

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