The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 138: Unseen Academicals Pt.3 (Progressive Sleaze)

Episode Date: March 18, 2024

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 3 of our recap of “Unseen Academicals”. Chants! Pies! Glowing Gold Woman! Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretDiscord: https://discord.gg/29wMyuDHGP Want to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:How Jennifer Lopez’s Versace Dress Created Google Images | GQ Playlist Alternative History created by @joeefoster - TikTok  Ode on a Grecian Urn by John Keats - Poetry Foundation  FIFA World Cup Trophy - WikipediaThe women that Britain ‘loved to hate’ [the 2006 WAGs] - BBC Culture Erinyes (Furies) – Mythopedia Hillsborough disaster - Wikipedia Hippodrome | Byzantine, Roman & Greek - BritannicaSchmidt pain scale - Natural History Museum  The Great Kentucky Meat Shower Mystery - Scientific American   They think it's all over - Wikipedia Alea iacta est - Wikipedia Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com 

But I want to know what you think of what's going on in the Magnus Ryse School. I'm enjoying. My red twine cork board of the mind is growing. Your metaphorical red twine cork board of the mind. That's actually how my inner monologue works. I booked my trip to the States and I finished knitting the second sleeve of the jumper I'm making. So it's actually been quite a good week. Is this your masterwork fishing jumper thing? Yes.

Nice. My hands hurt. It's so big. It's so chunky. I can't wait to wear it. You'll have it done just in time for summer. The moment I finish, I bind off the collar, sun's going to come out and that's it for months.

This is the new way to herald a season. Yeah. I make inappropriate clothing. To make the winter appear, if we're in the middle of a long drought, I'm going to have to have you fashion a bikini or something. Yeah, I'll knock up a summer dress. I'll find the perfect fabric. I need to order some fabric actually.

I need to make a dress to wear to Buffy Prom. Now I'm actually going. Oh, what kind of thing are you thinking? I want to do something based on a dress that's in the show. There's a dress that Cordelia wears. It's a very nice like green silk dress, but so I'm gonna do something like that, but maybe cut slightly differently so it's a bit more flattering for me. But the episode she wears in is like a homecoming dance and as she ends up accidentally getting dragged through bushes and things, which means if my hair doesn't behave, it'll just look like it's meant to be like that.

Love that as a fail save. Yep. I've been watching a bunch of videos on TikTok by this guy called Joe, which doesn't help very much but I'll- Guy called Joe? Guy called Joe. Perfect. Much shorter song than a boy named Sue.

Yeah. The name was Joe, he was all right about it. The boy left, he went, name me Joe. That was just fine. I was all right with that. Had a very normal life. But he does fun little recap videos of pop culture, especially in the 2000s and things. He's been doing a lot of Big Brother oh fun. summaries and that. It's lovely, lovely callbacks. But one of the things was that green silk dress that J.Lo wore. I don't know if it was.

Oh, yeah, that was actually one. That dress. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was the You knew what I meant immediately. Yeah, that's like why Google Images was invented. Huh. That's a that's a massive broadening of a very simple thing. So many people were trying to find images of J.Lo in the Versace green dress that it was a huge motivating factor for Google Images.

Yeah. Incredible. Yet another thing that was inspired by girls. What has J.Lo done for us? Well, theeducts? Google images? Roads? So you could draw some terrible narrative symmetry between J.Lo building this part of the internet with her very famous ass and King Kardashian breaking it. You could, but should you? Oh no, absolutely not. In fact, I'm ashamed that I've let the idea out into the world. Thank you Francine. What have you brought upon us? Where are we?

It's March Francine. It's the Ides of March. Is it? It's the Ides of March. It's the 15th today. While we're recording. Oh nice. Remember guys, it's not about stabbing, it's about stabbing with your friends. The friends you stab along the way. Oh God. Should we just, do you want to make a podcast?

Yeah, let's make a podcast. Hello and welcome to The True Shall Make You Fret, a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, one this time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan. I'm Francine Carroll. And it's part three of our discussion of unseen academicals. In which we hear the final whistle. Well done. Well done, Francine.

Thanks. You made it worse. I really did. That was horrible. On my part. Night on spoilers before we crack on, we're a spoiler-like podcast. Obviously heavy spoilers for Unseen Academicals, but we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the series and we're saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there so you dear listener can come on the journey with us. On an overnight coach to Stolat having unsuccessfully threatened the driver with a bit of lead pipe. Follow up, you've got some bits from the Discord, haven't you?

Oh yeah, a couple of bits. Sond Vogel mentioned that truth is beauty, beauty, truth, sir, sorry, is also of course the ending couplet of John Keats' Ode on a Grecian Urn, which makes a lot of sense with the urn and the trophy and all that. That's cool. So it goes, beauty is truth, truth beauty. That is all you know on earth and all you need to know. Which is nice. I genuinely thought I'd said that in the first episode and then realised I hadn't. I'd just mentioned The Simpsons and obviously that's the poem they're talking about in The Simpsons and somehow my brain didn't deliver the rest of that information. It's okay, Joanne, you don't need to mention all the poems.

But I will try. And Luxaire says that they do have a spoon or spatula with a hole in the spoon that's specifically for sauces and maybe it aerates the sauce. I disagree. I mean, not that someone has sold it as it does that, but I'm not sure it would do much to aerate a sauce. Why? Because it just isn't going to get that much air into it. You're just stirring with a hole. I mean, if you really want to aerate a sauce, you want to be getting your whisk out really.

Okay. I do agree. Yeah. Also, it just seems difficult to clean. Yeah, I don't like trying to clean holes. Right, okay. Which of us was going to break first? Always a fun game. We'll be saving that clip for posterity and hopefully playing it at my funeral. Previously on Francine, what happened last time? Previously on Unseen Academicals.

Watcha! Juliet, now Jules, is the new heavily bearded face of Aunt Moorpork high or low fashion. Glenda's sherry adds a spark to her inner monologue and allows her to entertain Madame Charn's charms. Back on campus, the unseen academics can barely muster a kickabout until the Cabinet of Curiosity provides a perfect ball and Genua provides a perfect star striker. Nut steps in to sculpt the beautiful game, Ridcully and Henry step back into their decades-old bickering match, and Rintzwin steps out of his sock in case the faculty gets apocalyptically rowdy. Meanwhile, Glenda reckons with a personal attack in the form of a chitinous metaphor. She climbs out of the crab bucket and into the Great Hall, just in time to see Vetnari

charm the local captains into signing their game away. Empowered by the knowledge of imaginary mallets, she walks into the palace to confront Vetnari, who does, it should be noted, have some very real hammers that he could use. But he's talking to a sugar bean and some pies are worth a more benevolent than usual outlook. I agree. I agree. Oh, I still want to pickle down, you know, I forgot to buy some. Yeah, I forgot to buy some. All right, we'll get there.

Notes on my acquisitions. Also, we've got to remember the wild garlic. Yes, we should go picking soon. However, before we do that, we should finish recording this podcast. In this section, which starts where the last one ended and we're going to go all the way to the end. Hooray. Nut's concerned that the door in his head might open.

Chained down with claws growing, he embarks on some self-analysis and remembers the ladyship and the forbidden book. The harpies harp on, Glenda screams and a crowd comes running, arriving in time to see Nutt admit to his orcish ways. Nutt walks away to make his coloured candles and Glenda organises Trev and Juliet before going to do her research. The librarian shows her an unfortunate woodcut and Dr Hicks shows her a snippet of an orc in battle but Glenda spots the whips. Nuts missing and Glenda set her crab free. Glenda, Juliet and Trev jump on the late bus to Stolat and find Nuts on the road who's looking for worth. In Stolat, Nuts shoes a horse and Glenda makes an assumption and has a stern conversation. Back to Aint Moorpork and there are ships growing closer in blanketed conversations.

But the upcoming football match is a far more pressing concern. The Times is making inquiries and there's fighting in the streets, brackets more than usual. Andy's playing for the new Ankhmore Pork United and Pepe's offering Trev an edge if he can turn up at midnight. Carter's black and blue and at the Hippo the teams are training while the rules committee confabs and bubbles interviewing Nutt. Glenda wants a word with Vettinari and she interrupts an entertaining Lady M to warn him about the upcoming bloodbath on the pitch, although there's bugger all he's going to do about it. The Unseen University team's having salad for dinner in an early night and they bond in their adversity. Trev goes at midnight, but not alone, and gets some special shorts. Finally, the day of the match has arrived. Crowds fill the city, but Glenda

and Jules are up in the good seats with Madame Charn. Vimes isn't happy, brackets more than usual. The ref's gone magic free and the national anthem sung beautifully by Ridcully. The game begins and William DeWerd notes the action. The UU team starts strong but injuries are rife and Jules has appeared in the stands. Glenda gets down to the team. Trev finally goes on as the crowd chants his name. Fight start and Trev can't score and Henry wants to bring the game to an early end. Glenda has an idea and takes advantage of an old rule to get a tin can in the goal. Then Juliet turns gold and floats and Trevor floats with her. Religion fills the stands, Andy's thrown

by one last kick, Nut challenges the crowd and has worth, shirts are exchanged and there's triumph all around. The relentless epilogues begin with celebratory wizards. Andy meets Pepe, Trev and Juliet find quiet inside of Glenda and Nut. Lady Margolotta and Vettinari dine. Nut asks for worth in becoming, promises to help the other orcs after he's taken Glenda to Querm. And finally, the unseen university commits to assisting Brazenek with their 70 foot chicken. So on to Helicopter and Loinkloth watch. The helicopter goes to the notorious clockwork spoon devised by bloody stupid Johnson, which can apparently stir coffee so fast that the

cup would actually rise up from the saucer and hit the ceiling. Proper helicopter, well done. Very helicopter. Loincloth is, of course, the shorts made out of retributium, which is different from when I said micro-mail a couple of episodes ago because it's a slightly different alloy. It is. It is a different alloy. Probably at this point mention Mithril just in case any Lord of the Rings fans are being

concerned that we haven't heard of it. We have. We have. I'm not sure if Mithril does the bouncy back thing though so well done Ankh-Morporks for getting one up on those pesky dwarves, elves. Dwarves. Quotes. Mine's first, is it? Yeah.

The rising sun managed to peek around the vast column of smoke that forever rose from Ankh-Morpork, city of cities, illustrating almost up to the edge of space that smoke means progress or at least people setting fire to things. Perfect. I'm so glad you picked that one because it was almost mine. Good. Yeah, I was going to insist you shoehorn it into locations, but I love A, obviously, beautiful imagery, gorgeous. B, really nice kind of macro zoomed out look at Angk Moor Porker's industrial revolutionary. Yeah.

It's not just on fire because they discovered insurance, it's on fire because they've discovered industry. I was about to make exactly the same joke. Oh, and the fucking underground spirits as well. Oh, yeah. There you go. Well, that's nice circle narrative. Quickly, give us a quote.

Find this wide open. Right, mine is from Ponder. Yes, we can do practically anything, but we can't change people's minds. We can't magic them sensible. Believe me, if it were possible to do that, we would have done it a long time ago. We can stop people fighting by magic, and then what do we do? We have to go on using magic to stop them fighting. We have to go on using magic to stop them being stupid. Where does all that end? So we make certain that it doesn't begin. That's why the university is here. That's what we do. We have to sit around not doing things because hundreds of times in the past it's been proved that once you get beyond the abracadabra, hey presto, changing the pigeons into ping pong balls style of magic, you start getting more problems than

you've solved. It was bad enough finding ping pong balls nesting in the attic." CHARLEYY Don't ask about the ping pong balls. MADDIE Don't ask about the ping pong balls. Yeah, that made me, you know, I like that theme of the powerful thing being not doing the thing. CHARLEYY Yes, definitely. It's nice to hear it from Ponder. MADDIE Yes, we hear it so much from a witchy perspective that I think, and we know that that's kind of the wizard's vibe as well is not doing too much, but from Ponder who is also splitting the Thalm just to see if we can kind of wizard.

L. Yeah, you definitely get the feeling he understands it from a few different angles. G. Yes. I think he's one of the characters that has had possibly the most growth over the series. Yeah, definitely getting his moment in the sun in this book as well. Yes. Speaking of characters, let's talk about characters. And moments in the sun and character growth and nut and nut literal character growth. Very little character because of the morphic field. Morphic field, thank you. And expanding and the claws growing.

The shiny black, quite neat, but hard to imagine them being used for say painting a picture or cooking an omelette. So yeah, orc. Orc, yes. This is exciting because this is obviously an introduction of a newish species for Discworld. It's been built up really well throughout the book. And I feel like this is a bit Pratchett taking something that irritates him about classic fantasy, say in this time point, Lord of the Rings, and asking the questions. Loretta Definitely you get Pratchett going, okay, so

are we just going to take that as right? That these creatures that were created and forced to fight are therefore evil? Or what happens if we don't force them into battle? Yeah, what happens if they get to have a happy, nice little life? But yes, it's a really interesting prospect to go right. Everyone has assumed this race is nothing but evil and they reveal at the end that the orcs were made from men, not goblins. Yes, that's a nice one. That is a nice one. It's interesting that Knott gets to be the one to discover it himself. I like that rather than an outside party going, look, this is what you are and him having to react to that, he gets to have this moment of psychoanalyzing himself and self-disco discovery in a very literal sense.

And the psychological thing of this thing of who you are, it's in this cupboard, I told you not to go into because that was the only way I could make sure you went and found it for yourself. Yes, yeah, absolutely. Which is a really nice detail. There's a great description as well while he's psychoanalyzing himself of a corridor stretched in front of him and he felt everything drop away, chains, clothes, flesh and thoughts. They're mirrored in a much more scary moment, a page or two later when he stands up and

sheds the chains and the bench and the goodwill he's just built up. Yeah, I thought that was a really heartbreaking moment. He's made everyone finally accept him. And then he sort of, without really thinking, he's not like screaming and bursting from his change. He's just standing up. They're no longer necessary. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, everyone runs away and you get the line, nut stood forlornly in the wreckage, which makes me want to hug him. Like having your own hospital with you all the time. And then it's interesting how quickly

he kind of builds back from massive trauma as well. Yeah. Does that make sense? I know it isn't as explicitly said, but he really does kind of logic his way out of it. But that sounds a bit more like stem row than I want it to. But you know, he has these horrible moments, he's fulllorn, he's hopeless, but he takes at most a little bit of chibbying and he can see his way back into progressing into accumulating worth. Yeah, well something we've talked about a lot is, I know you're talking about this idea

of Stembro, but he's emotionally logically his way out of it. There is no such thing as like a non-emotional argument and I think this is a continuation of that. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yes, we've been going on about this for four and a bit years. We're not going to stop now listeners. We can have emotions at you whether you like it or not. Yeah. And actually, that is kind of beautifully encapsulated in Nush, isn't it? Because you get, you know, the gorgeous poetry on top of the fact he is like this super smart logic machine.

Yeah, oh, right at the beginning of this section when sort of Glenda's trying to help him and he says, but what sort of bad things could possibly be in your head? Miss Glenda said not managing gallantry even in the fetid circumstances of the vats. I'm a big fan of the word fetid as well. Very short word to be so evocative. Later in the section, his interview with Babubble is fantastic. A, for paying off the favourite spoon thing by asking the question of someone who has a list of favourite spoons. Many favourite spoons. Fantastic number of favourite spoons. But also just the many random uses of Latin and faux German in his explanations about the many becoming one or being many, or that the

one when carefully considered may in fact be a many in different clothing. Yes. I found it very hard not to skim read his football-like explanations, I must say. I skim read a lot of it. There is only so much I can take in in one go. Reading philosophy is a lot like this, so I assume you got it right. Yeah, yeah. I try my best. I try my best. Right, so Glenda.

Yeah, I mean, the kind of bridging bit between Knight and Glenda, right? I mean, their romance, that's a character in itself, I feel. Yeah, I mean, the kind of bridging bit between Night and Glenda, right? I mean, their romance, that's a character in itself, I feel. Yeah, very much. You don't often see Pratchett writing romance from beginning to not end, but beginning to blossoming. I mean, you get Carrot and Angua, obviously, that's a little while ago now. And that's a bit more, we only see Angua's side of it I think. Yeah, we don't see Carrot's perspective and also a lot of it's kind of implied and off screen.

Things like the bed going, we hear the springs go when she changes in the moonlight but we don't see it, we don't see Carrot's reaction. We hear about it after the fight and Vines and Sybil as well, like their romance sort romance starts at the end of God's Guards and by the beginning of Men at Arms they're getting married. Yeah. And the common thread through all three of those is that they are a little bit mismatched and awkward. Yes. And I think it's just really beautifully done in this one. The kind of the visual metaphors as well.

I mean, obviously, Nutt's very explicit about the ship metaphor. I don't know if you've got that in front of you. Um, well, basically the... No, I haven't got it out in front of me. Each ship shields the other ship from lateral waves on one side. So by small increments outside forces, bring them together without there realising it. Um, but also just stuff like when he says that he wrote the poem, the So by small increments outside forces bring them together without realizing it.

But also just stuff like when he says that he wrote the poem, the cooling embers brightened up at this after all the forge has a soul. And just... Yeah, and she sort of gives herself a bit of a stand talking to her of what do you want to do, not what do you think Mary the housemaid would do. Yeah. And then she cries. Not the gentle tears that they would have been from Mary the housemaid, but the really big long drawn out blobby ones

you get from someone who very rarely cries. Yeah, I'm so sweet. And it's so sweet and it's so self-aware. The same thing with the ship conversation when they're on the coach and she's thinking to herself, I'm in a romantic novel situation. But they're both kind of grown up and self aware enough to go, we're both pretty busy in the next couple days and it kind of seems like we are being drawn together no matter what so let's Let's go and do what we need to do.

Hurry on with what we need to do and it's so sweet and trust that this will keep happening. Yeah, especially considering that the story ends with Nutt theoretically just go off, borrow forgiveness, the axe and give the Orcs some culture, which is a big undertaking. It's nice that they've got this promise, whether she goes with him or not, that even if she doesn't, they'll find their way back to each other. Yeah. I mean, there was definitely the correction of we will come and see you, Lady Margelotta. That doesn't obviously mean that she would want to, Glenda would want to go all the way through all of that.

Yes, but she's asserting herself as part of it. And that they were holding hands. Oh, and the fact that they got privacy by going to see Star-Crossed by, well, the playwright, which is a nice last Romeo and Juliet. Just in case we hadn't rubbed in the Juliet Romeo. Hey guys! Again, not subtle with some of the metaphors and references here. Doesn't need to be.

Doesn't need to be. And of course, their plans to go and ride through Quirm on a warm summer's evening. Wait, is that Shakespeare-y? No, I think that's more romantic novel. Okay, good, good, good. I just think it's very sweet that we've got the Golem horse being acquired for this. But yeah, I mean, and then Glenda obviously has her own character as well. She has her own character within the romance, which is one of the nice things, but her kind of continued speaking truth to power thing accidentally ends up with a fist in mouth

moment of course. Oh, such a great moment when she has that sudden realization of... Ah, ah, fuck. But the thing is, she'd talked like that to Vettanari already. She did. So, there's no, I would say no guarantee she wouldn't have said this. But it did give us the line, the faint distant hunting horns of sheer terror began to sound in the back of her mind, which is lovely.

That is an excellent line. Her moment in the necromancy department of fun, she's asking the smaller and smaller nuts of explanation. So you've got some kind of magic mirror. Well, that's it if you want the size of a pine nut. Pine nuts are actually seeds, Glenda said smugly, which is just a really nice win. As well as those horrible little pedantry wins. It's like a self-inflicted wins, like, okay, I've had to have the simplified and simplified and simplified, but I know what's a nut and what's a seed. So there. She also, when they're showing her the, on the Omniscope, the orcs in battle.

She says, is this going to be like moving pictures? And that's a nice reminder that timelines are not something we should try and look at on Discworld. No, no, of course not. She might have gone and pondered around and not young, but youngish perhaps. And he was a student at the time. She might have gone and seen it when she was tiny or she might have just heard about it. CHARLEYY Yeah, very true. It's not beyond pine nuts of possibility.

There we go. But I try not to understand that too much in case it hurt my brain. I like her threatening otomy as well, calling him an egregious slimy little twerp. I like the kind of, and I'm not sure if it is meant to be an implication, but I read it that way, that under different circumstances, she could have been, you know, Lady Margalotta level intellect, and I know intellect and knowledge is quite different anyway. But at one point, it is stated that she reminds reminds veterinary of Margalotta, I think maybe or something like that. Yeah, he points out that reminds not of Margalotta. Yeah. But also you just Yeah, you get all these

moments like she works out what's happening for and impresses Dr. Hicks. Gets offered a job. Yeah, yeah, she goes like the really intellectual moments during this. And it really is the fact that she's not had the opportunities that means that she's not, you know, talking like nut does or not quite like nut does but like Lady Markalotta can. does or not quite like nut does but like Lady Markalotta can. Yeah. She doesn't have the stable of references and as you said, knowledge rather than intellect. And she doesn't have the way of speaking. But I think it's really clear and sharply there with her from the beginning, like working your way up to running a kitchen and being able to just mentally juggle everything that needs to be juggled for the night kitchen,

which for feeding the wizards is a lot. And so she does, she has that intellect just within pies, which is not to be looked down on, not to be sniffed at. I would never look down on an intellect pie. What if it looked back up? Well, that's why you don't have a star, that's why you don't look down on a stargazey pie because it will look bad for you. Anyway, Trev. Trev. Trev.

Actually, a nice bridging moment between Glenda and Trev is towards the beginning when Juliet says she's leaving or Glenda tells him Juliet's leaving. She's going to go and do this modeling. She's going to do this thing. And well, that's nice. It's the kind of thing she's always dreamed of. I'm very happy for her. You cunning bastard. You actually got it right, Glenda thought. Yeah. Trev's got a star in his hand.

He has apparently got a star in his hand. Got a look for the star in his hand. Little reference to moving picture, not reference to, but a little parallel will move pictures, of course. They actually did have stars in their eyes. They did. I think the star in this chap's hand is a little parallel will move pictures of course. They actually did have stars in their eyes. Gina McElnay They did. Samer This chap's hand is a little more metaphorical. Gina McElnay But is Pepe being the one who goes, yeah, no, but it's the story, you've got the star in your hand, you're going to do the thing.

Samer We don't need to be quite as blatant about the power of narrative in this form because- Gina McElnay The book is quite blatant enough about the book. Samer We get it. We get it. Pepe gets it. Trev gets it eventually. When the likely chance starts and you finally get Juliet leaned over and kissed him for a moment, the tears were silver and she says it as a question likely and she finally goes on and something I really like about that is that there's no loophole. He's been saying he can't go and play the football because he promised his old mum and he gets like a

nice moment with Riddh Kali and you're sure you want, you know how I'm fix my old mum, oh yes, your old mum of course, completely seriously, he is not making fun of him for having made that promise to his old mum. And then when he finally goes on and plays, it's not, aha, I found a loophole. You can play because it's not the football that you promised your old mum. He just does it. He does break that promise. LARLEY Yeah, breaks his self-inflicted crime bucket. Yeah, no, it is lovely. GEM It is lovely. I think it's really good writing. And, oh yeah, him getting called

out by the bus driver is great as well. You're not someone who would actually hit you with a lead pipe, mate. I can tell. And he feels briefly embarrassed that that's been called out in front of his girlfriend who clearly doesn't give a shit. Yeah, absolutely not. Yeah, so Juliet. Yeah, or before I forget to mention it, Jules. Jules Ramey, golden flying into the air. Yes. Yes. Becomes sort of the manifestation of

pedestriana as well. Yeah, everybody needs a little avatar manifestation. Yeah. You know, a little bit of godly projection. We've had the silver mercury of moist. And we've got we've had moist mercury. And now Juliet's Pedestriana. Yes. There's obviously a reference to the whole wag culture thing here, Juliet, the wives and girlfriends of footballers and her being a model and doing this sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. And this is 2009, isn't it? This is just a couple years after the famous World Cup full of wags. 2006, I think it was and that had Victoria Beckham and Colleen Rooney and Cheryl Cole and Abby Clancy and that really young one

who's still doing her GCSEs but she married Theo Walcott who was also very young, it's fine to worry about it. Yeah, by the way, most of these footballers are like 18 years old. Yeah, and some of them got sent, some of the wags got like sent home, I think, because they were being so badly behaved and distracting from everything. And yeah, so Jules is, you know, she's on not posh posh. She is a not posh posh. She's the posh to Trev Specs. But she gets a moment, not related to that really early in

this section again, of standing up for Nut. She comes in and she sees this mob kind of unhappy while he's still chained down and says, have you all gone loony? He's Nut. He potters around making candles and stuff. I see him all the time. He's never holding someone else's leg or head and he likes his football. For Juliet, that's it. That's enough. Clearly a good bloke. What more do you want? Likes football, very rarely carrying a severed limb and I'm with Juliet on this one. That's all I ask from my friends. Well, I'm not the football baby. But yeah, just don't be carrying a severed limb when I see you. And if you do, have a good excuse. If you were, I'd believe you if you told me it was

necessary. Yeah, like sometimes you need one. My emotional support severed limb. Yeah. Wildly taking yourself. Any other Jules thoughts? Not yet, no. Okay. We'll come back around. Pepe? Pepe!

Pepe! Otherwise known as Zorro, apparently. Yeah, I guess. I wasn't quite sure about that. A little bit of Zorro at the end there. A little bit of Zorro, but telling Andy where to go is delightful. Being an actual threat is a bit of a challenge. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that.

I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. Little bit of Zorro at the end there. A little bit of Zorro. But telling Andy where to go is delightful. Being an actual threat is delightful. Yeah, no, he's the only actual thug of the protagonist.

Yes. And he's a good one to have because no one suspects him of being thuggish. No one quite takes him seriously. Yeah. Glenda thinking of his voice as it always sounded like it was trying to put its hand up her jumper. I think he may be the nanny og of the Dwarven world. I think there's hints of it too and there's definitely some loosh, like sort of innocent sleaziness. Yeah, with the kind of steel underneath.

Yeah. Oh, sorry, the silver. But it's not aggressive sleaziness. He never actually would put his hand up. Progressive sleaze. He never would put his hand up Glenda's jumper. He just always has the sound and the vibe of it. My favourite moment of his though, in the whole section, is Trev calls him just someone

who makes clothes. He says, I'm not anyone, I am Pepe and I don't make clothes, I create gorgeous works of art that just happen to require a body to show them off as they should be seen. And as someone who is a big fan of fashion as an art form. Love that moment. Absolutely. And you know, it's absolutely true if you if you try and look at catwalk stuff, like, Wow, would I wear that to the shops? Obviously, it's always going to look stupid. I'd wear it. If you if you look at what? All right, Joanna. Terminally overdressed at all times. She's wearing like some kind of mirror ball headdress right now listeners. I've stopped mentioning the hats at this point, maybe two years ago

she was wearing them. You can't see the lower half of my body is definitely a crinoline or two full on hoop skirt, panty airs, hip padding. Amazing you can sit down at that desk. No one needs this much circumference. It's ridiculous really. No, but yeah, I know what you were saying. You look at the red carpet catwalk staff, it's not designed to be worn to the shops. It is pieces of art. Yeah. Although in Pepe's case, he can do both.

He can do both. Find you a dwarf who can do both. Yeah, he doesn't just make clothes, he forges history. Ha ha. Andy. Speaking of Andy. Other end of the cool scale. Andy. Boo.

The worst. Speaking of voices, actually, a lot of people's voices get excellent descriptions here. Andy speaking in a greasy friendly tone. Hmm. Yeah. Oh, you can really hear it too, can't you? I swear to God, practice fucking top of his game with descriptions in this one, little one line descriptions. Yeah, sums so much absolutely. Absolutely peaked on some of this. Actually, I can't remember if he's peaked or not with the one line descriptions. Ask me again in the book. I forgot how many good ones are in this.

Every book we're reading is the best book we've ever read. Thank God for our short term memories. Nothing has made me kind of internally cheer quite as much as Hoggett punching Andy when the match is over. Oh yeah. Yeah butch his arms. Years of lifting a pig carcass in each hand when he had a punch even Andy's thick skin had to reckon with.

But it's not enough to stop Andy. Andy is still frustrated until right at the end as you, with Pepe doing his Zoro bit and then giving him the half a lemon to wipe his wounds with. And it's a nice, he's finally taken off the board, he's not dead, but I think that's him finally learning the lesson. Yeah. And if he doesn't learn the lesson, then Pepe will kill him. So I think either way, we can be satisfied that he's out of it. Niamh With Andy Obrey if you want to talk about Carter

as well because I think the moment when Trev goes to him and sees how beaten up he is, is a really hard moment to read. In a good way, it's really well written. Loretta He's meant to be slightly objectionable, you know, benevolently. Niamh Fundamentally unlikeable. Loretta Benevolently, sorry, objectionable. Yeah, yeah, but fundamentally unlikeable. But it's awful to him like that.

Yes. No matter how much even you as a reader dislike a character, how much anyone dislikes him, seeing it like that and knowing that he had a go at standing up to Andy, standing up to what was going on was really tough. And this is also the bit that gives us the excellent mouse nose third nipple on last year's Miss April, which was in fact staring at Trev and wobbling. Beautiful. I really like that added dimensionality in Ascenderfall. Should be more wobbling, no. Vesanari, Vesanari is interesting because we get a lot of stuff about him having this tyrant as a need to maintain the status quo.

We were talking a lot about status quo stuff last week about how much we want to see it maintained. Yeah, but at the same time that's not how one builds a city. No. Trev thinking about it, the city worked, It'd been a mess before Vettanari had taken over. He'd got the watch working. He'd got the war between the dwarves and trolls sorted out, which I thought was interesting as Trevor isn't on the ground more porky and thinking, yeah, Vettanari did that. When maybe we as readers, if you suddenly go, hang on,

no he fucking didn't. Yeah, that does add another moment to Vimes' irritation in a bit actually, doesn't it? Add another layer to it. Yeah, he's not getting the credit for it. But yeah, but Vettanari's impudence it reads towards Margalotta is quite fun. Yeah, he's a really different side to him. And it's a fun side to him laughing when Nutt makes a comment about teaching humans to be civilized and then sort of looking a bit chastened when Lady Margalotta looks over at him.

And you kind of get some clues as to how long they've known each other. Because obviously Lady Margalotta is a vampire. Yes. She's immortal. And so it sounds very much like that Nori's known her since he was very young and that she was kind of a mentor figure. Yeah. So we met his aunt in Nightwatch when we saw Young and Senari and I wonder if she was friends with Margulasser and Margulasser makes a point of being friends with the family. Yeah. Yeah, that could be it. Yeah, because it does it. Yeah, because he says like, since

then I've had a long time as Tyrant, so yeah. Hmm. It's good fun stuff. Oh, and Drumnott, the scenario expresses the opinion, I've sometimes speculated he might change his life for the better should he meet a young lady willing to dress up as a manila envelope. Very unkind. But then by the end of the book, he's comparing ringbiders with Lady Margulis's librarian. Yeah, well, hopefully they have a lovely friendship. I just don't think a romance should spring from that kind of thing. No, I think if a romance starts with comparing ringbiders, it can only end in disaster, personally.

Yes. So yes, we don't have any logic to back that up. That is just a vibe. We will not be taking questions. Also, I'm not sure if the librarian knows about all the stuff that Drumlot's been getting up to on the weekends, up to and including finding young ladies to dress up as Mandela envelopes. Slander.

Okay, so yeah, Lady Margalotta. Yes. Yeah, Lady Margalotta. The librarian misdirect is great because it does play on, even though we know that Lady Margalotta looks like quite sweet and unassuming in a cardigan or at least is capable of looking like that. We saw her when she met Vimes, she had the sort of bat. Yeah. I think it's still a good misdirect for the reader because it's been so long since that was the fifth elephant. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know, there'll be plenty of people who are reading this who

haven't read the fifth elephant. Yeah. I think quite a lot of people read these books and don't then go on and make three episodes about each one of them. And that's cool. Yeah, you could do that. Yeah, I guess it's probably faster. Yeah, it's probably. It's a bit late for us now, but you know, next time we read it, we can probably just read it. Fucking hell. Jesus. But yes, the tall lady looking at Glenda with disdain and Lady Margulosa spossing that she's not spotted and taking advantage of it to have

that conversation with Glenda. From her point of view, it's great. Yeah. I'm fully on board with tall, disdainful, librarian trope, eclipsing this old one. Yes. I think if I ever become a librarian, I should like to be tall and dressed in black and aloof rather than short and wearing cardigans and friendly.

That's fair. I'd have to switch my glasses out. Yeah, yeah. I'm a slightly librarian at the moment. If I was ever to become a librarian, I'd hope to be an orangutan. Yeah, I mean, wouldn't we all? Do you think you could be an orangutan and maintain the overdressed lifestyle you currently. Yeah, probably.

No further questions. Might look a little bit Jungle Book, King of the Swingers with the- Style icon. You know, the leaf skirt. Yeah, style icon. Jungle VIP. I've reached the- Absolutely.

No. Right. Glenda and Lady Margalotta staring contest. The battle of the stairs went on for a year too long and then Lady Margalotta turned her head sharply. And that is- Yes and then at the end there she's like, did you see she tried to stare me down? I saw she succeeded.

And I read that and then I had to go back and was like, oh wait, did she in is it? And yeah, it does, it does explicitly stated she does win. And then... would maintain her relationship with him, that that wouldn't change no matter how much he grew and changed. That's a good point. And it came as a shock to her when that wasn't the case. But she just went through it with Vettnari. And with Glenda. Briefly, yeah.

Lady Marga lost her expectations being thrown away today. And her employees, I guess, the little sisters of perpetual velocity. Yes, the Furies. Furies from Afib. Furies are ancient Greek vengeance goddesses, also known as Erinis or Eumenides, usually depicted as a trio, but depending on which sources you're looking at numbers vary, who they are varies, who their parents are varies. And they're different from the Fates, I take it. Yes.

The Fates are the ones that come. Yeah, there's a lot of triptychs in Three Terrifying Women. Speaking of one of those other triptychs in Greek mythology is the Gorgons and one of those is Medusa. Apparently, we've got a Medusa in the watch over from Ephib. Did Medusa have two friends in the Greek? Yeah, she had two sisters. Oh, that's nice. But I do wonder if Pratchett got a bunch of... You said there was a Medusa in the watch,

didn't you mean there was a Gorgon? Because I'm sure there must have been. Yeah. Like, no, because it's my fucking world. That's what they're called. Suck it. Yeah, I'm sure that's how we reply to people. I am sure Terry Brudge paraphrasing slightly. Paraphrasing my imaginary reply. But yeah, they are also I like the orc orc. Yeah, that's a really fun. Very nicely done. Very fun. Yeah, they're really creepy set of characters. Very good. And they look like halfies, don't they?

Yeah. Faces were strange as if someone had made a bird out of a woman. They're not bird women. They're feminine birds. Yeah, we've kind of seen these little hybrids before in Witches Abroad. Yes! This kind of thing happens in foreign lands. Don't go to a Feeb. Winged women. I won't. Turning into stone.

No, no, we're mixing mythology and metaphors all over the shop. Speaking of the watch, let's talk about Vimes. Um, yeah, let's. Lovely to see him. Sorry he's having such a bad day. He's definitely having a bad day. Uh, furious at the football. He wants to put Nutt in protective custody. Yeah, terrible idea. Yeah. Put him where everyone can find him. Um, insisting on his title being used when he's having that final word before the match starts.

Sorry Arch-Chancellor, for now I am Commander of the City Watch, not Sam, if it's all the same to you. Yeah, absolutely. I think we mentioned the last time those two were interacting that it was nice that he called in Sam. Yeah, there was Sam and Mustrom. Yeah. In fact, he says later on in that bit, honestly Mustrom, I really would have expected better from you. That will be Arch-, said Ridcully. Petty. So petty, petty, petty Ridcully.

But yeah, I mean, you look at it from Vimes' point of view, he really has just sorted out this fucking like Coombe Valley riot in the street thing. Yeah. Or at least simmered it down a little. And then he's like, what the fuck are you doing now? And just got the dwarves and trolls to stop fighting in the streets. You guys are starting.

And now you made more fighting in the street. Thanks guys. Cheers. Thanks a lot. Poor, poor Vimes. And it's nice also they take out the potential Deus Ex Machina again by saying the watch are not going to be stepping on the field. Which was there was something else I wondered actually there's a few moments where they talk about the watch and their involvement or they're stepping away from football and specifically you know the crowds and the fans which occasionally uncomfortable to read and

I don't think Pratchett was referencing directly but as a Brit I think it's hard to read without thinking about things like Hillsborough. Yeah, no, I mean, I think it was a fairly... I don't think it wasn't on his mind. Yeah, no, exactly. He did mention with, he made some sarcastic comment about with the delicate crowd control and forethought that, you know, police are known for. Yeah. Yeah, no. Police almost always make crowd crushes and stampede worse or just cause them. They really do.

Anyway, Ridcully, speaking of Ridcully. Yeah, just immediately going to go in there with the two sleeping lions of a chest. Yep. That was, that was my first thought. Feeling old things about that. Yeah, yeah. Have I developed a crush on Ridcully, do I know? Yeah. Remember our whole thing about weird relationships to power.

Yeah. It's probably healthier than veterinary still. Yeah, probably. And well, I mean, he is sort of very devotionally celibate though. Exactly. Therefore it's safer. There's some psychological studies on this, I'm sure. There probably are. Mountain priests. Yeah. We've got to get Nut in here with his Ubevalldian accent.

Nut, can you please psychoanalyse my- Freud would have a field day. We are not asking Freud's opinion on red-coloured tits. No, we are not at home to Mr. Freud. When he's tobacco hunting and the final note from Mrs. Whitlow of, I just didn't have the heart. Oh, I know that was so sweet. But she has to let him know that she knows.

Yeah. As long as he knows it's not safe, then he still gets his thing. And Mrs. Whitlow, who's organized some of the girls into a cheerleading squad, they'll be high kicking, I'm told. But if you're careful where you let your gaze fall, you should see nothing that will upset you too much. And of course, this is Mrs. Whitlow. So I'm sure there are, you know, bloomers down to ankles. Oh, I'm sure we're plentiful in the bloomer department. So many bloomers.

So many bloomers. And we have the stylish new, the interlocking use. Which is good to know. Yeah, no one's told Diplor who was... No, well, never mind. Close enough, innit? Yeah. Had to keep the prices down for the kiddies. Yeah, cut me a throat. For the kiddies. For the kiddies. Henry, Henry, having a lovely power trip.

Henry, the Arch-Chancellor of Braesneck. I'm just calling him Henry. Two chairs. Two chairs. Yeah, having a lovely power trip. A fucking traitor. Yes, he is having a lovely power trip. Within these four rather sticky lines of chalk, I am a wielder of power, second only to the gods themselves and then only perhaps. Yeah, fun thing to say when you're very copper boots on a mountain. Yeah, religion's getting invoked up the wazoo here, maybe let's not throw off on your power over gods.

I suppose you get to be part of the avatar, don't you, if you're refereeing. You've got the whistle. A god's game, but yeah. Which is also another thing I like, the thudding at the end of the joke, you know, there's this roaring triumph, go on, blow the whistle, and then you get one last note from Evans, the striped. Yes, yeah. Something like, stop doing that in the showers.

Yeah, stop fiddling with yourselves in the showers. We've got William Deward casually inventing football commentary, bless him. Perfect. And that was a nice, that was a really clever way of doing the game, I think. Yeah. Because much like an extended fight scene, there are only so many ways to write these and keep people interested. Yeah. And football commentary, fantastic. In fact, I now want to see all fight scenes written in this style. There are only so many ways to write these and keep people interested.

And football commentary fantastic. In fact, I now want to see all fight scenes written in this style. Ange 1 Yes. And him developing the science of football commentary as it's happening at all, having a live, he starts with noting it, he grabs someone else to note it, he goes down, he thinks he needs a megaphone so he can tell everyone what's happening, he goes down into the shower of empty packets. But we're not the gutter press, no matter where we actually are.

Which is currently the gutter. Yes, don't worry about that. Early in his commentary I noted, making a noise like a partridge brackets check with nature notes correspondence on whether I have the correct simile. And it's William DeWerd who brings us the almost two-page long joke of Bengo Macaroni insisting that if they're going to challenge his name, that they include all of his titles. Emma Pyshkowski Rob Wilkins in his A Life with Footnotes mentioned that this was the one and only time he was permitted to use copy and paste, or possibly the only time he even dared suggest it. But he was allowed to copy and paste that title for the two following rounds

of... He said something like Pratchett somehow felt people would be able to tell that they cheated. To be honest, usually when I want quotes from the book, I just type them from the book into my plan. I went and found this and copy and pasted it. I just want to be really transparent with our listeners. But that's only so you keep the purity of the actual writing process, obviously. Yeah, I'm not actually going to read out the whole thing because I feel like that's less funny.

I insist you do not in fact for once. But there are just a couple of little ones. I love the way Bradtj can tuck jokes in by you really got to fight through all of these brackets and initials to find the funny bit, such as a visiting professor in chickens brackets, John the Conqueror University, floor two shrimp packers building. And of course, chair of bliss and music studies at Quirm College for young ladies. I think the dwarves would appreciate. I think they would. And then lastly, just the Department of would appreciate Macaroni. I think they would.

And then lastly, just the Department of Postmortem Communications. Hicks, Hicksing. Hicks Hicksing away, explaining how his relationship to evil works with Ridcully. If the Archchancell gives me a command that absolutely must not be disobeyed, he'll add something like, Hicks you little worm, if you disobey this one I'll smack your head. See? That's subtle democratic language? Also, one of my favourite one-liners from the whole thing from this department. Thank you very much. The skeleton articulated. Yes.

Perfect. I feel like I misread part of making money because I thought Charlie was just a talking skull or was a static skeleton. I didn't realize he was a- I think he was a talking skull. I'm guessing that Hicks has found him some bones because they're all magic together, aren't they? Yeah. That's nice of Hicks. Yeah. You see, he can't admit it, obviously, if he-

Yeah. ... reasons of university statute. Oh, I also like the fact that he was harassing somebody on pitch with a boffo prop. With a dagger of something. And yeah, I like that the necromancy department hires women, or will take anyone as women, would quite happily hire Glenda, who I think would do well in the post-mortem communications department if she wanted to. If she wanted to, I don't think she's got the capacity for nonsense. Yeah, that's a good point. And I'm not sure she'd actually want to wear the slinky

lady necromancer outfit from Bofo. No. I'm sure it's lovely. I'm sure it is lovely. But I feel like this is a bit when Magret was worried that becoming a witch queen meant she'd really have to change her wardrobe. Yeah, yeah. I think to be a necromancers assistant, you definitely do. I think I could be a necromancers assistant. Yeah, but I mean, you've got all the costumes for pretty much all of these parts already.

Yeah, good point. Well, at least that's sorted for when we put our play on. We should chuck my wardrobe at it. Ah, marvellous. And we didn't go anywhere. We didn't go anywhere. And I thought I'd spare you all a half hour explanation of the origin of the word Hippodrome. I will mention that I quite liked the idea of the cart sales being a chance to buy one's property back. Obviously, we did go to Stolat. We didn't learn anything exciting about Stolat,

but it was a fun trip. We had a nice time. It was a fun trip. We shoot a horse. We shoot a horse. We saw a lovely, hustling, coaching in. Spoke very rudely to a vampire lady, lady with a capital L. We didn't have a nap. We didn't have a nap, should have had a nap. Little bits we liked. I like that we got another ridiculous corporate mug moment. Yeah, we did. Down in the Department of Necromancy.

Speaking of postmortem communications. Yes. Oh, sorry. Yes, down in the Department of-mortem communications. There was something curiously depressing about the slogan on SedMug which ran, necromancers do it all night. Which is another flavor of course of tedious corporate mug, the just racy enough to get a little chuckle but not enough to actually make you smile on the inside. Yeah, and Glenda's kind of judgement's the balance, which meant that Hicks clarified they'd actually had to have it made or sort it out, which ruins my theory that multiple horrible corporate mugs appearing is second shopping trolley, Snow Globe.

Yeah, yeah, never mind. Oh well. Oh well. Leopards and shorts. Yeah, I like the whole leopards never change their shorts thing as a replacement for leopards never change their spots. But also, well, I just did a little giggle for leopards can't change their spots to see what came up. And I found two alternatives, which I liked, listed on wiki dictionary, the wolf may lose his teeth but never his nature. The fox may grow gray but never good. Ah, poor fox.

But nice phrase. But a nice phrase. And yeah, I like that that was like a one-off joke of someone not knowing what the thing is and it's really stuck in Discworld. Yes, yeah, absolutely. I don't know where it's from originally. I think it might have been from the Bible originally, the leopard and the spots. But if that's the case, it's probably referencing something even older. But there's a just so story with it in and the leopard spots are made with a fingerprint. Best beloved. Best beloved, God, I love the cat who walked alone.

It's my favorite. Um, screwing her head off. All right. It's change of tone. Very well. Best beloved. Nuts sort of speculates about the amount of radial force that must have been necessary to effectively unscrew a human head against its owner's wishes.

And then later after the football's done Andy goes for a nut who gets Andy's hand in his hands and then you will get the calculation on the page of how much force it would take to twist it off. And I feel like we should take this time to thank Pat Harkin, who is the person who provided Terry Pratchett with the information of how much force it would take to screw off a human head. And somewhat surprisingly, the sinews and skin, of course, are the... Yeah, which makes sense if you think about it. I guess it does.

Yeah. Yeah. But the thing is that you don't. I don't actually put a lot of thought into that now. One does not. But I'm glad Nut did. I'm glad Nut did. Yeah.

Hmm. What about papers? Ah, the newspapers. So the newspapers react to the news getting out of Nutt being an org. I just like this side eye at shoddy journalism. Ponder points out the way The Times has written about it. I seriously think that they think it's their job to calm people down by first of all explaining why they should become overexcited and very worried. As we get talked about the fact becoming elastic, the inquirer did an article about raising important questions about veterinary's open door policy while saying at the same

time that rumours that Mr. Nutt had to be chained down were quite likely false. Which is funny. He did actually have to be chained down, but because those rumours probably wouldn't have got out if they weren't in the bloody Enquirer. LX Exactly. GW Exactly. who is worried that she won't be able to sleep easily in her bed now that orcs are coming into the city. Lae-Anne Bain-Saint-Saëns Yes. Little nod at page three, the classic page three thing in the UK being a topless lovely with an incongruous bubble containing her thoughts on a current event. So, Abby19 thinks that Tony Blair ought to get his act together with the economy. Yeah. Specifically in the paper, The Sun, which is one worth boycotting for multiple

reasons including Hillsborough, which we talked about earlier. And lastly, this is very me sewing, this is great me reaping, haha, what the fuck. In the first episode on Unseen Academicals, I said that by the third episode, I would try and understand the offside rule well enough to explain it. And now here we are. All right, I'll come back in a minute. And we have moments of the football in universe rules association discussing this rule and things being thrown around the table. I'm mostly aware of it as like a silly difficult to explain rule. There's a thing where it's being explained with salt and pepper shakers in Bend It Like Beckham, a film which is written deeply into my subconscious.

Love that film. God, it's such a good film. Always like jump scares me every time I watch it that there's a male romantic lead because it's such a gay film in my mind. I literally can't remember who played the male romantic lead. I can because I can't remember his name. Oh, Jonathan, no, Jonathan something because he was he played Henry VIII in the Tudors. Yeah, no, it's clearly a gay film. Yeah, but it's a very gay film. Anyway, so the offside rule. A player is offside if they are closer to the opponent's goal than their own and also closer to the goal line than both the ball and the second from last opponent, the last opponent being the goalkeeper on that half of

the pitch. So if you're on the pitch and you've got the opposing goalkeeper but no other people from the opposite team in front of you and you're on that side of the pitch and you've got the opposing goalkeeper but no other people from the opposite team in front of you and you're on that side of the pitch and the ball is behind you then you're offside. So if the player is between the opposite team's goalkeeper and the rest of the team on their side of the pitch but that's not illegal. You commit an offside offence if while you're in that position you then start actually getting're in that position, you then start actually getting involved in the play, say taking possession of the ball or tackling someone or something. And that's as far as I got with the offside rule before my brain

started hanging. But closer than I've ever gotten before. And a famous American politician who said, and I can't remember which one it was now, who said of pornography, I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it. And that's how I feel about the offside rule now. Yeah, and the Cherubs. And the Cherubs, yeah. Yeah, if there's an earth, you're definitely offside. Yes. No, you're not offside, right? Or is it like art? Is offside the opposite of art? Oh god, I don't know. Francine!

Does this have anything to do with the side of those ships? No, don't get between the ships because if you do, you'll probably get crushed by the ships to be honest, but also you're offside. I hope this cleared things up for listeners. Sigas of Parrot! Sigas of Parr parrot, Francie. Yeah, just one of those fun little Discworld moments, tiny little bit of footnote world building for no reason apart from it's hilarious. The librarian who was eating a poison banana is at this point as sick as a parrot. And according to Fletcher's Avian Nausea Index, parrot starts stands at number five in the wishing yourself

dead index. The highest level of sickness is that suffered by the great combovert eagle, which can vomit over three countries at once. What a bird. Which is a wonderful thought. And does remind me of the just this just came to mind so I can't remember the chap's name. The pain scale that was put together by this one scientist who let basically everything sting and bite him. Ange 1 Oh yeah. Ange 1 And he died quite recently, not of that amazingly. Ange 1 It reminded me of there were some phenomena

type rains of blood or meat that people figured out were vomiting vultures. Ange 1 Ew! Ange 1 Yeah, cannot remember any further context for that. But if I can find it, I'll link in the show notes. Hey, that. Okay. Joanna, tell us about something that's very shifted in tone. Yeah. From vomiting vultures. Vomiting vultures. That sounds like a weird, you know, old fashioned American. Oh, vomiting vultures, Batman. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Okay, no, let's go on to the bigger stuff. So there's two stories happening here. And I think it's really amazing how masterfully they're balanced together. And you don't have one going without losing track of the other. So as we go into this section, we're really focused on the orc aspect. The football takes a back seat for the first half, sort of third of this section I'd say. So you have Nutt coming to terms with things, especially while making his colored candles, which makes me very emotional. It really does. You have these realization moments. You have Glenda going to the Postmortem department, as we said, and realizing the whips had to be there. It changes everything and I think it changes for the reader as well. I don't think any

reader is reading this thinking, nut is terrifying and violent, but I think the reader might have this underlying thought of what if there is an inherent violent nature he can't control? And then we have the whip reveal, it changes everything. It does if all that people talk about are the monsters and not the whips. Things that look very much like people, what can you make from people if you really try? Which is also a great foreshadow for the reveal that they're not made from goblins. You build into all of this with this everyone knows idea, everyone knows that orcs will tear your arm off. You come towards, as we're in Stola and the horse is sheed and we're heading back to deal with the football, that this is somewhat resolved. You know, Glenda reassures Nutt

with every time you do things, you change what everyone knows. And they have their big romantic moment, which isn't too big, but the sobbing and then the conversation on top of the coach. But the writing's too good to just say, all right, and that's done with now. It's set up doubts of whether that's enough or whether bigger things need to change. And going back to that journalism idea, this mob reaction, this speculating about what the problem could be, this getting everyone overexcited before telling people that they don't need to be, that could have been a whole book, but it becomes just one half of these two narratives. So then that story gets put on pause and instead we

go back to the football story, this idea of football being broken, Pepe summing it up as Norves and Ari thought he could do what he did with the Thieves Guild, but it doesn't work because the Thieves Guild's organized and football isn't. Yeah. Well, and along with that, you then have the idea of the faces versus the captain. So the captains have joined the new football, but the faces are now getting in there to teach veterinary a lesson. What do you think about the kind of resolution of the whole veterinary breaking football

and it's got sharp bits? I don't, I think that there was more that could have been done with it. I think we see the sharp bits in the match but because the story needs, because we're getting towards the end of the story and the story is shaped like a story, it goes a certain way. The sharp bits are brushed off to the sides pretty quickly. Yeah, I'd have liked to, obviously we were getting a bit ridiculous with the epilogues. And it is a long book, but I would have loved to see some of the fallout on the street. But then I guess, you know, it's kind of, it's an implied one. We never got to see the fallout of the Coombe Valley on the street, did we, after that was resolved.

Yeah, I think there's a lot that can be taken as read, but it would have been nice to have a bit more of that visual. But what we have, Yeah, maybe we would have done in five books time. Quite possibly. But yeah, so you have, it feels like the Orc story somewhat resolved. So you go to the football game and you go into the match itself. You have the highs and then the lows and the injuries. You have Trev panicking on the sidelines. You have, and then you have Nut in goal and that brings the Orc

story back. It's so cleverly done of, oh, did you think that was all over? Of course not. The crowns are still furious and they start chanting orc at him and that's another really good payoff. The chants come organically from the shove. You see one of the faces kind of getting that orc chant going and then you get Pepe starting the Likely chant. Yes. And at this point, the crowd gets described as a beast. The beast had forgotten the name Orc, but certainly remembered the name Likely, a name that had fed it so often, a name it had given birth to and eaten, a name that was football, the very heart of the beast. Yeah. And that winds out over the deviously seeded one. Exactly. From Mrs Atkinson, whatever her name was.

Oh, very quick side note, the scary old Lady Atkinson's daughter, nephew or son or whatever it was, was Atosha Atkinson. So I feel like Pratchett had another subject on his mind of a future book. Yes. And yeah, the religion starts building up at that point as well with the likely chance and everything that sort of little echoes, especially when Henry is calling himself, you know, power second only to gods. Yeah, that was a weird one. I love that.

Something in the air, the silveriness of fine winter days. Just a great line. It is. And yeah, the resonance, the reverb kind of, the echo effect on everybody's voice. Yeah. That's very much like, and I don't know why, whether it's like one of those tropes that's been in so much media now that we recognize it even in written form, but the layered audio like that, meaning something supernatural, be it demon or angel or god. Yeah, the second voice coming through. Very that, isn't it? I would automatically do that if I was trying to make like a... Someone sound possessed.

Yeah, yeah. And there's one last kind of yanking the rug out from under you, taking it all away, which is Trev goes on and you think this is going to be the big triumphant moment and he can't play because he doesn't know how to kick a football. Yeah. And Glenda's even frustrated. She says it shouldn't be like this. Trev has to win. It can't go another way. It's got a star on his hand.

It's got a star on his hand. And that's when we get a really good payoff from last section, which was Glenda noticing one of her favorite silly rules had stayed in, rule 202, the ball should be called the ball. The ball is the ball that is played as the ball by any three consecutive players, at which point it is the ball. And this is where we get the Deus Ex tin can. I've got to stop calling these Deus Ex things because I'm... Nah, fuck it. I've got to stop calling these Deus Ex things because I'm... Yeah, fuck it. We've committed now. Deus Ex tin can because the story does have to end a certain way, especially when there's

this much religion going on. Yeah, mate. You're not going to fuck with a religious momentum, are you? Not on Death Goal. No. And the story does have to go a certain way. So of course, Trev gets that final sudden death goal. And that's when we finally get the two stories getting to conclude together. Not in a stadium full of people chanting Orc after the game has been won, who stands up to the entire stadium and says, come on, if you think you're hard enough. That moment has, it's up there in the contender for like one of the best Disco moments.

It's incredible. Dropping the megaphone, lowering the voice, rolling sleeves up. Come on, if you think you're hard enough. And he's dropped the megaphone and he's lowered his voice. You have to strain to hear, but you can hear because we're in the middle of a religious moment. Yeah. So it's almost transported directly as if everyone's wearing headphones and feels it

whispered to them. Yeah. And that's- Now that is fucking cinematic. It is. And of course the crowd's reaction is to applaud. And part of it is, Nut has tamped down the so-called orcish aspects of his nature to become, say, worthy or what have you. And this is him almost admitting to the crowd, okay, yeah, but I could also fight you. And that's what they need to appreciate him. It is him.

The honesty. Yeah, exactly. And so it's an incredible way of bringing these two stories together. It's so masterfully written. And then you throw in a bunch of epilogues because it's a pressure book so we need three endings. Yeah. Except you actually get a lovely little culturally relevant, what's it, marker between them. Yeah, you think it's all over which is a reference to the 1966 World Cup. It is now! Yep. Which I had to look up because I wasn't familiar with that.

Really? Yeah. That kind of surprises me. Yeah, a bit of pop culture. Yeah, no, it is pop culture. Yeah, something that's just kind of after this. Yeah, no, it is definitely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, fun. But one of those epilogues being Lady Margalotta saying that Nut could give the Orcs culture and legends and history. So it's not just this wonderful conclusion and then a few epilogues

because Pratchett does endings so well, he does lots of them in one book. But it's an ending that's also a beginning. And it's wonderful. CHARLEYY I'm sorry, I just love the fact that Mildly Oates is out there carrying a massive fucking battle axe these days. NARESH Oh yeah, same. Battle axe name kick if you will. CHARLEYY It makes me want to go back and reread a bit of Carfey Jugulum. NARESH Same. CHARLEYY Just to remind myself. Just to remind myself of who he was at the beginning.

Yeah. Oh, see, that's what happens if you get sharpened on the witches. You end up with a massive axe. Yeah. And you call it forgiveness. Sorry, sorry. A moment appreciation because you were talking about the silence and the cheers. Just the silence spread like warm butter.

That was also one of my almost quotes. Fucking brilliant. As always, a food-related metaphor, very appreciated. Reminiscent of the golden syrup of Discworld light. Yes. The syrupy, sticky, slow moving light. Anyway, silence is very much a physical entity on Discworld, I think. So yeah, speaking of nut and that moment of acceptance from the crowd, human nature. Human nature, more so why it's so good on this world as well. So human nature, obviously, in this section, we get this continuation and building up of the idea of worth. We get, as you said, nuts bit,

heartbreaking bit, trying to prove he has worth with his candles in front of the horrible theories and in front of the people. And it kind of works for a second there, of course. We could be people like the candles, and say, Oh, it's amazing what you young people could do these days. And things are starting to look up for a minute. And you kind of see the decency under the reflexive indecency from some of these people who go all the foreigners, this, that and the other but oh, no, you'll find it worry about it. Yeah. And Glenda in this moment said she'd been she'd been watching all these people come around open mouths, the kind of democracy practiced by reasonable and amiable but not very clever people surrounded not in its invisible benefit beneficent arms.

Beneficent? Yeah. But but immediately Glenda's heart was a bit calloused on the score because it's the crab bucket. It's sentimental, it's forgiving, but get it wrong, and that can be one wrong word, and those nurturing arms could easily end in fists. And Nut already knows this, Glenda is coming to terms with it, while at the same time trying to persuade him that it's going to be okay because he's showing people, you know, you're the only orc they're going to see, you're going to change this. It is such a fucking burden. Actually, just quickly speaking of that roadside moment, as he gets kind of accepted into this

group and they're like, yeah, no, that's great. His whole thing of the concept of worth ends up being discussed among them and gets a bit philosophical among them. And they're really non-plussed, it comes down to it means that you leave the world better than you found it. And they're like, yeah, no, I mean, people should do that. And it's this non-plussed reactions if in the process, like, not sad to live with this is a huge defining idea for him. And he can't make it seem that massive to him. They're just sort of like, not sad to live with this is a huge defining idea for him. And he can't make it seem that massive to him. They're just sort of like, yeah, no, should do that. Yeah, good. Cool. Anyway. Yeah, absolutely. And that kind of, I think Margalotta, accidentally disguised as Librarian,

was introducing this to Glenda. Yeah. Here we go. Do you think the world is a better place with you in it? And would you do me was introducing this to Glenda. Yeah. Here we go. Do you think the world is a better place with you in it and would you do me the courtesy of actually thinking about your answer rather than pulling one of the affronted rack? And faced with that Glenda settled for yes, which is nice.

Yeah. Knowing that you have made the world better, that you've produced more than you've taken away from it, you also get this kind of idea of doing what you can. Yes. And different people can do different things. And it's more of a burden on Nut in a way, because Nut can do so much more than almost anybody while at the same time having to face all of this fucking nonsense. But yeah, I mean, basically, the kind of dichotomy I was talking about a minute ago. And I really think this is why, partly why the Discworld books kind of stick with you.

So the moral of the story is not tied up in a nice bow, and it's not kind of presented like a satisfying meal that you can eat and forget like most kind of fairy stories and fables are. They give you the permission to stop thinking by giving you the narrative as you expect it, by giving you, you know, by giving into narrative. But a discworld fable, such as it is, always acknowledges the narrative and then refuses to follow it. It's not conclusive and it rings more true because neither is life, neither is anything. And so it kind of sticks in your mind or sticks in the core of your mind because it can't be filed away with the rest of the stories. And I think that's why we remember all of this so well years and years afterwards. We remember the concepts even if we don't remember which book it was in. We might be 10 books off. We can't remember which characters said

what but we always remember the concept. And yeah, I mean, if you think Nightwatch, Monstrous Regiment, all of that, all of that is, you know, Nightwatch and its revolutions and its revolutionaries and you don't get an answer about who was right because the answer is nobody's right. It's a revolution. That's why it comes around again. And so yeah, you remember and I think, you know, like, as you've talked about before, a lot of these later books are kind of either a culmination of or a kind of almost a distillation of ideas. A distillation of, thank you, yes, of some of the other books. And I think this one with

its thoughts on human nature being so changeable and so beautiful and welcoming and so aggressive and awful at the same time, A very, very disquel. Yes. What a book. Yeah, what a book. I'm so delighted we talked about this book. Do you feel like you have made the world better? I mean, I didn't invent the Ploughman's Pie, so Glenda's one off on me there. I don't think I've made it worse.

Good. Yeah, I'm not going to get... You'd have to be pretty hard working to not make it worse and not make it better to stay on some kind of... Completely. Needle, yeah, some kind of pinhead of like a... That's the time traveler thing, isn't it? I'm going to the medium place when I die.

Yeah. You're one person. Yeah, like the realistic version of that. For every bad thing I do, I must do a good thing. And for every good thing I do, I must trip over a child. You know what? I mean, I know I'm like mentally just kind of stuck on pies at this point, but I'm going to say I've made it better on the basis that I've made a lot of good cakes.

Yeah, I've made a lot of good cakes. And I do. And you know, more to the point, you kind of, you like to share those with people. Yeah, yeah. I haven't just made cakes for myself. I've made cakes for people. I've made cakes for people and I do my best to get around it. What more can you ask for in life? Do you think, apart from a clockwork spoon? You've left the world better. Well, you haven't left the world, but. Oh my god. Terrible news listeners. Joanna is murdering me.

You've just gone to the moon. Have you made the world a better place? I try to. That's good. I try to. I feel like I did not for quite a long time. And then at 25 or so, started making a concerted effort to change that around. That's fair. Before we get too introspective. Oh, too late. Have you got an obscure reference for Neil for me?

I have got an obscure reference for Neil. It's a little bit of a cheaty one because it's just a bit of Latin again. But we love a little bit of Latin. This is when Fetnari is ordering Drumnop to stand down the crossbow assassins that were standing inconspicuously. Turns out that was a good idea. And Vetnari extended his arm to her ladyship. I think the term is, as they put it, alia eacta est, the die, your ladyship is cast. And we should both see how it falls. And yeah, basically, that does mean the die is cast. It's a variation on a Latin phrase, I acta alia est, which was meant to have been said by Julius Caesar, as he crossed the Rubicon, which is the other way of saying this. But it basically means we have crossed

a line, we cannot come back now. We've got to keep going. We're forging ahead now. We've crossed the Rubicon, which is a river in Italy. It's that whole thing. You know what they're like. Italians. Yeah. So Alia Iacca Est, which I hadn't really heard as a phrase, but I had heard crossing the Rubicon a lot and I was interested to know they were from exactly the same source. Excellent. Amazing. I love that. On the Latin moments I got thrown for a bit because I saw E Pluribus Unum and went, shit, I know that. And it is very close to Ut Sintonum, which was the Latin mosso for one of the schools I went to, which is that we may be one.

Oh, cool. So what E. pluribus? That was something along the lines of and I am one or many become one. Oh cool, nice. That's not everything we could say about Unseen Academicals, but it is everything we're going to say for now about Unseen Academicals because we've said quite a lot of things. We have said quite a few things for quite some time. It's a wonderful book and I could quite happily go on saying things but... Yes, I have extensive notes.

Same. So yeah, so we're going to have a week off and we are going to be back on the 1st of April with the, not a joke, with the first part of our discussion of Nation. We're talking about Nation next month. Which is not a jokey book. Which is not a particularly jokey book. So yeah, we'll be back with part one of Nation on the 1st of April. Very excited about that. Possibly a bonus episode that month. Not saying anyone that right now. Fuck. Nation with a... Nation.

We're in Nation. God, I love that book. Guys, it's going to be such... Honestly, one of my favorite fucking books. Oh, it's such a great book. Until then, dear listener, please don't forget you can rate, review and subscribe and all of that stuff. Don't forget.

Don't forget. You can rate us and review us if you would like to. You can also join our Discord, link down below. You can follow us on Instagram at the Truth Shall Make You Fret, on Twitter and Blue Sky at Make Your Fret Pod, on Facebook at the Truth Shall Make You Fret, join our subreddit rslash ttsmyf, email us your thoughts, queries, castle snacks and glowing gold women, the truthshallmakeyourfretpod.gmail.com. If you want to support us financially, you can go to patreon.com forward slash the truth shall

make you fret, exchange your hard earned pennies for all sorts of bonus nonsense. And until next month, dear listener, it was another good day. The scholar Paul Cocker, excellent, interprets the dwarves' intense secrecy around Mithril as an expression of sexual frustration. Well, you can interpret literally anything in around Mithril as an expression of sexual frustration. Well, you can interpret literally anything in Lord of the Rings as an expression of sexual frustration. Especially if you're called Paul Cocker and apparently really like Freud. Right, let's not have too much Freud. We already have the Uvaldean psychiatrist. Psychologist. I know there's a difference between psychiatrist and psychologist, I just don't know what it is. Answers delivered in the form of a repressed memory, please.