The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 143: I Shall Wear Midnight Pt. 2 (Attempt the Next Dimension)

Episode Date: May 12, 2024

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 2 of our recap of “I Shall Wear Midnight”. Onions! Chickens! Omens Galore!Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretDiscord: https://discord.gg/29wMyuDHGP Want to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Angry White Boy Polka - YouTubeNOTE: the other quote about grasping nettles firmly is from Night Watch, not Equal Rites18 Witches by Thy Last Drop -  Spotify  Buying a wart from someone. : r/CasualUK James Murrell - Wikipedia Or, if you’re a member of the Folklore Society, this is the article I referenced: Cunning Murrell by Eric Maple Sorcery on display: witch bottles - Museum of London"Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria" - Maintenance Phase - Spotify The Egg-Shell – The Kipling Society Perennial dreams - the Horologium Florae - Francine’s Substack! This has a bit about Erasmus Darwin’s poetry.  Another lost Terry Pratchett story found. Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

I thought you'd frozen for a second. No, I can see your eyes moving. I thought you'd frozen also. I like how when one of us thinks the other is frozen, our response is to freeze. In sympathy. It's like when Brad pandas are trying to look intimidating and they do it to each other and they both just stand there like this. Yeah. It's all on me. New Doctor Who. New Doctor Who tonight. Oh, fun. What time is that on?

Midnight. Oh, sweet. Okay. I'm very irked by this. They're doing this because it's on Disney Plus in the States now. Rather than airing at like 7pm on a Saturday, it's now dropping at midnight on a Saturday in the UK, which means it's on a normal time to watch if you are in the States and in the UK you stay up till midnight or you watch it in the morning and you probably get spoiled on it before you watch it if you open any app. Yeah, that is annoying. It's on Disney, you say?

In the States. Oh, I see. Right. I play it here. It's still on iPlayer in the UK. But Disney Plus, I don't mind that Disney Plus are now involved in it because they've clearly got a better budget now. I don't think that's always a good thing. If it gets really, really CGI heavy, then no. But if it goes into costumes, and it looks like it has with this season, then very yes. All right. Yeah, that one. So in your costumes, new series of Bridgerton starts soon as well.

I haven't watched the last one yet. You have watched the last one. Oh, you haven't watched the Queen Charlotte. Queen Charlotte in betweeny one. Oh yeah, I was gonna say, you definitely watched the Kate and Anthony season, because you and I have discussed the shouting and lingering glances. Oh shit, what's the line? We haven't quoted Bridgerton as each other enough recently, Francine. What's going on? You are the bane of my existence and the object of all my desires.

Perfect. Much better than I burn for you, not gonna lie. But the new season is, let's be honest, the Nicola Cotman season. The one who's actually whistled down. Oh, Lady Whistled Down. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Penny. It's the Penny and Colin season. So I assume many are heaving bosom and lingering glance. I'm very excited.

Yes. Do you know, I think this is why I thought I'd missed a season, because people have been talking about their relationship,, I think this is why I thought I'd missed a season, because people have been talking about their relationship. And I think in the context of the books. Yeah, it's like one of the most popular pairings from the books, I think. Right. Okay. Okay. And they're also they're doing stuff on the show slightly out of order from the books, I guess. I've not read the books. Your book Joanna, your book, we're going to talk about in a full sentence for a second.

Oh God are we? To make my life a bit easier during the edit you see. Oh okay. We have a release month for your book don't we which is called Friends in the Golden Age of Sitcoms? Friends in the Golden Age of the Sitcom. And yes in theory it is coming out in July. I don't have a date yet, but as soon as I do, I'll be telling everyone on every social media platform available. Yes.

I made a new Instagram, but it glitched and I forgot to post anything on it. So must rectify that at some point. Cool. Cool. Yeah. Twister is a weird hellish cesspit put on there and... Yeah. Oh, Tumblr. Tumblr. I'm probably not going to do a Tumblr. I just feel like Tumblr is not a place to like, market. Tell that to Neil Gaiman. Neil Gaiman doesn't market on Tumblr. Neil Gaiman just exists like a wizard.

I was about to say tell that to John Green, but John Green famously had a terrible time on Tumblr. Yeah. Very famously. Very famous. Oh my god, I've got the BBC opener in the next half because I've forgotten why. Eurovision incident prevents Dutch rehearsal. Incident? Incident. The Dutch Eurovision entrant did not take part in Friday's rehearsals for the song contests final because of an incident, organisers have said. Well, that's ominous. Mm hmm. I'm not going to read any further than that. I feel like they'd have said in

the first paragraph if we knew much more. Yeah. Hopefully, it'll be amusing and not tragic. So I can leave this bit in. Yes. I'm going to start referring to more things as an incident. Yes. Yes. Sorry, Joanna. I'll be five minutes late because of an incident, brackets, getting coffee. Yeah. I am behind on all my work because of an incident, brackets, I procrastinated for five hours.

The way I am. Who I am as a person. I am, unfortunately, an incident. Before we have an incident, do you want to make a podcast? Yes, let's make a podcast. Hello and welcome to The True Show Make You Fret, a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, one this time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan. And I'm Francine Carroll. This is part two of our discussion of I Shall Wear Midnight. Note on spoilers before

we crack on. We are a spoiler-like podcast, obviously heavy spoilers for the book I Shall Wear Midnight, but we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series and we're saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there so you, dear listener, can come on the journey with us. Trying desperately to aim for the one soft surface in the landscape as your final bristles smolder. Final bristles, there's a bad name. Very quick bit of follow up.

Nerys and Patreon in talking about sticky noises, accordion's very sticky. Sure. That's a noise that follows you. It is, yes. I think somebody else stood up for hurdy-gurdy music in the discord. Yes, I would like to apologize to all those we've offended. We didn't mean to insult the noble hurdy-gurdy. Okay. I mean, I mean, did we insult it? Did we? I'm not sure I know what hurdy-gurdy is. Terry Pratchett insulted it and we just- Yeah, we can't apologize on behalf of Terri

Pratchett. No, we're not going to start off with Terri Pratchett. No, no. I will say that I feel like herdigirdie is related somewhat to polka. Just going to wafing up a whole new can of worms there. And we have very much enjoyed the weird owl polka extravagandas over the years. We have. We have occasionally danced to a full 40 minute polka and then... Angry white boy polka remains my favorite.

Same. Because it gets me right in the nostalgia. Yeah, I might have a listen to that later. I don't know if my knees can polka for 40 minutes anymore. Not as young as I used to be. Francine, do you want to tell us what happened previously on I Shall Wear Midnight? FF Sure, if you don't want to talk about polka at length. ALICE I'd love to talk about polka at length, but we should probably talk about the book I Shall Wear Midnight. FF Yeah, right. Let's crack on. Previously on I Shall Wear Midnight, Tiffany Aching is

nearly 16 and she is pulling this broomstick along on a string because it is practical. Thank you. After an awkward scouring fare, Tiffany is roused from bed to deal with the aftermath of a very, very bad deed. The rough music plays for Amber's father while she's spirited away for the soothing, and upon Tiffany's return, the young witch saves a monster for the sake of a handful of nettles. Having stopped one death, buried one baby and eased the passing of a baron, she's rewarded with the screeching accusations of a useless zealot and a thankless mission to fly to Aunt Morpork, find her kind of ex and his watercoloury fiancé,

and break the bad news of his ascension. Excellent. And how about this one? Stuff happens. A lot of stuff happens. Good. How about some of that stuff in a bullet pointed format? Fine. In chapter six, Tiffany oversleeps and sets off flying with Fiegel's to particularly disastrous results. A crash landing on a mail coach doesn't break a mirror ball, but the coachman's jumping bones do. The Kelder in her Hiddlin sees a man with no eyes, and Tiffany confronts a similar stinking apparition. She

fixes the coachman, the Fiegls fix the mirror, and finally they make it to Ankh-Morpork. While the Fiegls go a-finding, Tiffany gets a real lesson in boffo, and the dwarves offer an express service on her broomstick if it'll get the pixies out of the city sooner. In the distance, there's a crash and a criven. In chapter seven, the Watcher gather to what's left of the King's Head, and Tiffany arrives to find an irate Duchess, a polled Rowland and frilly Letitia. She delivers bad news badly, and Carrot steps in to comfortably arrest Tiffany and Proust. There's anti-witch sentiment in the air, and Proust warns Tiffany that someone will want to chat and tells her all about the Tanti. Meanwhile, the Fiegls find a friend at the pub. In chapter 8, Tiffany is warned, and

while the pub's been put back almost right, the Fiegls need to get out of the city. Tiffany meets Vimes and then drops out of the world, follows a polite voice to tea at the unreal estate. Miss Smith tells Tiffany the story of the cunning man. A chicken becomes a seafaring onion. A penny drops. A giant shambles spins and the cunning man almost arrives. Tiffany goes. In chapter nine, the priest rides a bronze horse and Tiffany arrives back on the chalk to find guards at the Fegal Mound with shovels. Roland believes amber has been given to the fairies and it's time to have a chat with the baron. After a confrontation and a good night's flaming sleep, Tiffany heads to the castle. The Duchess overbears while Letitia frets, and Tiffany narrowly escapes a visit to the dungeons thanks to Preston and happy-ass Corpass.

There's a scream from the kitchen. The cook seeing frogs and accusations fly as the cunning man lurks. Tiffany stamps down nastier thoughts, but the cook lands in the cellar nonetheless. Tiffany stamps down nastier thoughts but the cook lands in the cellar nonetheless. Yet again, such a difficult one not to keep reading. So, helicopter and loin cloth watch for helicopter. I have had it with these motherfucking snakes on this motherfucking broomstick. Fantastic. Yeah, in this case, we'll never know whether they were better or worse than feagles. I mean, snakes set fire to less things. True.

It really does depend on the snake. Yeah. And for loincloth, Tiffany's really tough pants for flying, possibly with extra padding. Absolutely. We all need flying pants, hard-nailed boots, and a good solid willow framed hat for those pesky fallen cottages. Perfect. So quotes. I'll go first. Masonry. Granite and marble, chert and miscellaneous sedimentary deposits, my dear Tiffany. Rocks that once leaped and flowed when the world was on fire. And do you see the cobbles on the streets? Surely every single one of them

at some time has had blood on it. Everywhere you look, stone and rock everywhere you can't see stone and rock, can you imagine what it feels like to reach down with your bones and feel the living stones? And what did we make from the stone? Palaces and castles and mausoleums and gravestones and fine houses and city walls, oh my! Not just in this city either. The city is built on itself, all the cities that came before. Can you imagine how it feels to lie down on an ancient flagstone and feel the power of the rock buoying you up against the tug of the world? And it's mine to use. All of it, every stone of it. And that's where witchcraft begins. This ties together two of our favourite Pratchett themes, which is Ankh-Morpork being built on Ankh-Morpork and what kind of soil you need to grow a witch.

A little hint of vines with the importance of the cobblestones and the fire stones. And the blood on the cobblestones. This is for context, in case this is forgotten, this is Mrs. Proust explaining that you can absolutely grow a witch in a city mostly built on slime. What about you? Favorite quote? I'll call back to your quote from last week, I think. But this is when Tiffany

is yet again recalling Mrs Snappling. Snappily. Snappily. In her memory, some of the pieces fluttered in the pitiless wind like moths that had been swatted and broken, but were still hopelessly trying to fly. And there were stars on them. And then, little bonus, and on that day with a pocket full of charred stars, not knowing what it was she was doing, but determined to do it, she had become a witch. Pocket full of charred stars. I had made a note of that exact line to just chew horn in while talking about Tiffany somewhere,

so I'm glad you got that. It's a beautiful sentence. A bit of an internal rhyme. Gorgeous and pitiless wind. Just beautifully constructed sentences and obviously still fucking heartbreaking. Little bits of fucking charred stars and paper and what a visual motif. So characters then, let's talk about Tiffany. Yeah, let's talk about Tiffany. She has a stressful journey, I would say, followed by a much more stressful time in the city. So not the mini break you would hope for. I mean, she gets to sit and have some nice, you know, cheese and cured meats and wine and a nice sleep. She got to sleep. She did then, of course, have a lovely afternoon afternoon tea but that was a little upset by the chickens

and the onions. So yeah, I'd say not a relaxing city break. Not an ideal city break. No. I wouldn't mind staying in the cells at the station, that doesn't sound too bad. Something I noticed in this section, we talked a lot in the last section about how Tiffany is struggling with this being much more mature than the people who are her age and she's kind of lacking in peers. She's had to grow up in a very different way to a lot of the people she has grown up around, which is a theme that's gone right back to the hat full of sky, this idea of her and Roland both being these people who have to hold themselves separate for some reason. But I know, having

talked about her maturity so much last week, when she's around sort of older witches and not on her steadying and with her feet a little bit unsteady, we get these hints that she is still a teenage girl, this immaturity. And I really like it. It's like this reassurance that no, I haven't just made Tiffany grown up and that's who Tiffany is now. It's all in there. Yeah. And as she thinks to herself quite explicitly at one point, like, I don't think I did anything wrong, but then I'm on the inside of my life. Yeah, she's got a very good perspective. No one thinks they did anything wrong. Yeah. And we are hearing from her perspective

a lot of the time and until we get that dialogue, you don't get the, all right, I'm going to be a precocious little interrupter for a minute here. When when Miss Smith's telling her the story and telling her about the cunning man, Tiffany leaned forward in her seat listening to the clues trying to work out the ending in advance. Yeah, yeah. I felt seen. Like us watching telly. She has this need to sort of prove herself to Mrs. Proust a little bit.

Yeah, that's even before the crumb of the cunning man breaks off in both of them and sets them off fighting. Yeah. The repetition when she keeps getting asked about the winter's myth. There wasn't even tongues. It wasn't a snog, okay? Look. But then when she's thinking about it in her own head, it is a huge fucking deal, obviously. She describes it in minute detail and then pouring the power of the sun into like, it's a hell of a first kiss, let's be honest. Yeah.

Assuming it's first kiss. It might not be I don't remember. I think it was implied. Yeah. Avertly stated. Yeah, it was it was first kiss. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, what a hell of a thing. But she is still kind of trying to downplay it because I think she other people see it as like, oh, you snuck the winter Smith because she fancied the winter Smith. Yeah. Which is not what she did. Or at least she's worried that that's how people will see it. Yeah, yeah. I don't think that is how people see it. I think that's what's on the mind. And you've got to remember being 15. Like, fuck. Is absolutely how you feel, isn't it?

It's like, look, no, mmm. The point is, and when Miss Smith tells her the coming man is coming for her specifically and she thinks to herself, I'm not going to show any fear. And of course, Miss Smith picks up on it and you know, I did defeat a Hiver, I can look after myself. And she's missing the point of she's going to have to and people feel sorry for her for that, not they don't think she can. so fucking full of awful drama, like the crowd turning on her and everything like that. But then also she meets two new mentors like in the space of two days and like you get to and say, do we? Yeah. You know, obviously, we've met Esk before. But not like this, obviously. And yeah, Mrs. Prowster

as well. And it's really cool to get Esk's perspective of not Esk, sorry, of Tiffany's perspective of these new witches all at once. And sort of getting this option of, I think you're going to mentor me whether I like it or not, because that's sort of what witches are like, even though officially we're all very proud and don't help each other. Yes, exactly. So yeah, Mrs. Proust, the horrible hag. Yes, the joke on a joke. That's not very funny.

Yeah. That she is the witch after all. And Derek, I haven't written him down, but sweet Derek. Oh, sweet Derek. Oh, sweet Derek and his devotion to perfectly tuning a whoopee cushion. You know, somebody, I want to say someone has to do it. They don't really, but everyone needs a hobby.

What would the world be like if we were all the same? Yeah, exactly. Now it's the queerest folk. Lee said soon as mended. I love that phrase and it comes up a couple of times in the book. I do. That's one that doesn't get used much anymore. But I remember my grandma saying it a lot. Yeah, my grandmother used to say it quite a lot as well. We were both very talkative children. And it's from Mrs. Also Mrs. Proust's the proprietor of Boffo, which is nice because

we've met Derek before. So we would have met Derek in making money. Oh, yes. Because it was 10th Egg Street and the Boffo shop that Moist went into to That's right. Bend his note for the first time. Yeah. I thought for a second that we'd remet one of the coach drivers from Unseen Academicals just because he got out his lead pipe. I think that's just what all coach drivers are.

It's a different kind. And Mrs. Bruce is the one who hangman for a father and she tells Tiffany about the Tantian about the canaries. And we've talked about the canaries before because we've got both got them in our minds as a practice thing. And I think we couldn't remember which book they came from. Yes, God. Now I can't remember which book we were talking about when we saw them. So that's all right. Yeah, they've occurred before. What a fucking book for this to be where this law was dropped though. Yeah, again, the young adult

book. I mean, I won't keep saying it because it'll get tiresome eventually. But fucking hell. Yeah, some of the darkest discworld law is dropped in this book. Yeah, this idea of the D wing where they lock up the men they don't dare hang. And they give each man a canary. And these cruel men used to look after their canaries and cry when they died. And I won't go into it but this is one of the best foreshadowing, I think, set up moments in the whole book that gets paid off in the next section. Yes, I think so.

All right, let's talk about what I'm really excited about though. Esk, esk, esk. Yes, it is written like that in the plan, by the way, listeners. Esk, Esk, Esk. Eskarina Smith returns. She does and she's still got a ponytail. She's still got a ponytail. There's even a description of she looks like she found what she wanted to look like at a young age and stuck to it. Exactly. Yeah. No, I'm really excited for the Return of Esk. I remember reading this for the first time and the reveal because Miss Smith is a generic name and this could

easily be a new character because Pratchett writes really cool characters and then you get to the Shambel and the wizard staff there without the knob on the end and you realise who you've been talking to and it delights me. It's a joy. I know and she's it's been I don't know how long it's been exactly. But obviously it's been longer for her than it's been. Yes. Because she's been tracking through millennia for millennia, possibly.

Yeah. But it's really interesting to hear about her and Simon. But it's really interesting to hear about her and Simon. Yeah, the sort of payoff of their story and the way she says, you know, it's the good memories that are the painful ones. Yeah, sounds like he was in worse health than he was in the books. In equal rights, yeah. And then, yeah, she looked after him and he did really important research and so did she and then I guess he died. And yeah, oh. He did really important research and so did she. And then I guess he died.

And yeah, oh. You get the moment where the penny drops and Tiffany realizes and then we get this, we get this really nice depiction of because Tiffany says, Oh, you're the only woman who ever became a wizard. And Esk's response is, well, yeah, sort of. It was a long time ago, and I didn't really feel like a wizard. I didn't really worry about what anyone else said. And this is sort of like this non binary version of being a part of magic. It's not which or wizard but sort of floating around in the gray area and taking bits of both. As we know, a wizard staff has a knob on the end. This staff does not. The staff is lacking its knob on the end because apparently it didn't really do much.

And thus it has better balance. Take from that what you will. But Tiffany's like, this inner fangirl, the story of Esk has spread around lots of people and Tiffany has been asking about Esk and you know. Nanny says, Lee said soon as mended. An anagram, a loftily says, oh she's dead of course. Yes, now Lee said soon as mended from Nanny in this context is interesting, isn't it? And is that because Granny wasn't happy with Stesk fucking off to join the wizard circus? It's been so long since we did Weird Sisters. I don't quite remember how Granny feels at the end of the book.

Equal rights, yeah. Equal rights, yeah. Equal rights, yeah, of course, sorry. Yeah, we should go back and reread the final chapter or something maybe. But I think from Nanny, it was more, or I read it more in the context of, we don't need to talk about that. Yeah. Nanny is probably aware that Esk is floating around because if Esk grew up, I feel like at some point Esk and Nanny had a conversation where maybe Nanny explained some things to

Esk that Granny wouldn't have done that she might have needed to know at a certain point in her life. I hope somebody did because I don't think Simon knew any of it. Yeah, and I don't think she was going to get that education at the University unless Mrs. Whitlow obliged. Yeah, well there was the other witch, wasn't there? There was the other witch. I think they only stopped there briefly who did all the contraception things. Oh, yeah, there is that.

In fact, she did know some of it, didn't she? Because she had grown up on a farm and there was some talk about that. But speaking of farms, I did notice a little later in the book, Amber asking, I keep calling Tiffany, asking my head now, asking Tiffany not to turn her dad into a pig or something, which I thought was maybe a little callback to Esk turning her brother into a pig. Heather. Yes, I thought that was quite good. Yeah, I love Tiffany's internal fangirling after she was like, the rumours went that she'd learned secrets that made the mightiest of magics look like nothing more than conjuring tricks. It was true! Tiffany had talked to it and had cupcakes with it. There was really a woman who could have walked through time and make

it take orders from her. Wow! Cool! This was also when we did our starting in the wrong place Terry Pratchett day episode a couple of weeks ago. I mentioned equal rights is a good starting place and said, one of my reasons for that is a bit spoilery and part of it was this full circle moment of us coming back this late in the series. Yes. It's so nice. So Roland then. Twat. Sorry.

Twat. So much of his dickishness is related in this section is related to both his grief and all of the trauma he's got from Fairyland. So I can almost sympathize with it every time I start feeling myself like almost nudge over towards him that he does something that just yanks me back the other way. Exactly. Like speaking. Yeah, that's it. It's the speaking. Because he starts talking to her almost like her again at one point when he's saying, can you take this grief from me? That's pretty much the

only human thing he says and the whole, no, not the only human thing, but the only agreeable almost thing he says. I mean, he goes through the whole bargaining stage of grief with her. Yeah, can and take this. And why couldn't you stop this in the first place? Yeah, wait, no, no, because you were looking after him. Yeah. And he's like, just forced to confront it, which somebody's never had to do. And then Tiffany has to force a confrontation with him, because she goes in to speak to him. And he's, you know, insisting on my lord and miss aking and what have you and she has to she's grabbing at the horse necklace. This I had to, she'd stood up for granny weatherwax

for this necklace and now she held it like an accusation and told him that we have to remember the past, the past needs to be remembered. Yeah, it's like the cunning man has kind of cast the opposite of an elf glamour over Tiffany isn't it? It's like they, nobody can see her in these moments as Tiffany. It is as the witch from the storybook. Roland! Whereas Roland just pisses me off, the Duchess is one of those introduced dickheads that I kind of love immediately, not in that I think she's a good person and I love her, it's just so well written that I love how the character's written, I love how quickly

it's introduced as this particular kind of asshole. She's very much the Discworld equivalent of the grandmother and nation, I would say. Yes, very that. There's something else I was going to say and then I realized that a family member might listen to this. Okay. Strive me about the family. Guess if it's you. Answers on an angry, angry postcard. Striving about the Great Hall and occasionally prodding people with a stick. Oh, God, does that immediately make you cross?

I'm furious. Not even to cross. Furious. Furious. Imagine. Do you fucking imagine being like a maid there, being prod advisor? Again, I've said this before on the podcast, but I could never go back into like a public facing role, let alone like a service role. That the minute I got treated like that, I'd be at least fired, probably arrested. CHARLEYY Yeah, you've seen how I cope with confrontation. LUCY Yeah, no, you wouldn't get fired so quick, but you would go mad. CHARLEYY I would, I would. I've cried in many a walk in fridge in my life. Preston's defiance,

refusing to arrest Tiffany straight away, and the defiance seemed to push the Duchess beyond rage into some sort of fascinated horror. Introducing someone who has such a stern grasp on where she is in the world and then the moment something doesn't work with that, it just completely unseats her. Yeah. And the description of what kind of a bully she is, I thought was fantastic. The kind of bully who forces her victim into retaliation, which therefore becomes the justification for further and nasty bullying. And then collateral damage to any bystanders, and then they would be invited to blame the

victim in the first place. And yeah, yeah. It's the most frustrating kind of horrible person you can come across because there is just no, there's no purchase. Yeah. And in this case, in this scenario, it's even worse because she is like by law, your superior, not just like a guest at the shitty hotel you work at. Yeah. Someone who technically could throw you in the dungeon. Once the gates have been there. Yeah, you have to meet the gates first. And then by contrast, we have Letitia trailing

after her trying not to be standing too close. Oh, Letitia. I love the fucking description of her though. So many amazing descriptions of Letitia. Her apparel was simply a mass of flimsy frills upon frills and Tiffany's mind not the clothing of anyone who was any use whatsoever. Ha! This coming out, coming from Tiffany's perspective and she just needs to think a little bit she thought about Letitia every now and then. And the fact that she looks like she's been painting in watercolour, but not a lot of colour and a lot of water. And she was, you know, she looked like she'd be snapped in a storm. Ha!

When the tiara is pulled out, Letitia looked objectionably winsome. I'm not sure you can look unobjectionally winsome to be honest, that just might be us as people. I'm not sure how to look a winsome. Objectionably winsome is a perfect name. It's like winsome is like ingenue type. Yeah, yeah. Sort of floaty and delighted. Yeah, there's a lot of fluttering. This is very good for an audio format. I'm fluttering my eyelids in an objectionable

manner. I am finding you very objectionable as well as slightly winsome. Oh, I guess it's like winning, isn't it? Oh, yeah. It just winsome in this case. I quite like the some suffix. I will add it to things where it oughtn't be. But in this case, it makes a winning smile.

A winsome smile sounds a lot more soppy. Yeah. And damp. A soppy smile. You lot more soppy. Yeah. A damp smile. A soppy smile. You're damp, damp. Yeah. There is something damp and like a used handkerchief-ish about her. Like a used handkerchief for lots of crying, not a used handkerchief in a gross, snotty

way. Exactly. Yes. It's not even got mascara on it because she would never. She didn't need it. No. But she probably does because she's so, so blonde. See, we're being bitchy now. We are being bitchy.

Yeah, we're being bitchy. And it's much worse for us because we're being bitchy about a random 15 year old or whatever. And we're 32. We have taken, I'm not, I'm 31. Oh, get over yourself. It's a month away. Literally one month away. I'm making the most out of it. But I do start to soften towards Letitia by the end of this particular chapter when you see her mother and the grasp the nettle firmly, and then she runs off sobbing. Which by the way, doesn't always work. So watch out. In fact, that might be another, oh, is that another Equal Rights one?

What, Grasping Nettles Firmly? Is that another Esk Grasping Nettles Firmly a couple times and came away with a hand the size of a small pig or something like that? I think you might be right. It could be Tiffany, it could be Esk. I think it's, yeah, we are, it's, We've made them interchangeable now. Yeah. And we three men Tiffany. Yes. Look granny, if you wanted us to be able to tell apart your wards, then you should have

put a bow on one of them. Exactly. Thank you. Put one in an eagle. Yeah. I mean, she'd separate them by 40 years or whatever. But look, we don't have time for this. Anyway, Preston, again, he's only briefly in this section towards the end. But I love as soon as he starts talking favourite words. Oh, yes. He's made for Tiffany. That's the thing. I mean, that's just the perfect way of showing it though, isn't it? Like that they are made to be at the very least best mates. Yeah, it's not, you know, eyes meet across a crowded room or fluttering heartbeats or something. It's doesn't conundrum sound like a coiled copper snake. Exactly. It's like a melding of the eternal thesauruses.

That's a right. Yeah. That's all right. Yeah, one of those thesauruses and it does doesn't it conundrum copper colored snake. As soon as Pratchett says a word sounds like something it's there. Oh, yes. Conundrum conundrum. But then I think a little on the nose with susssaurus, susssaurus. Susseration. Susseration I think. But like in a good way. Like no doubtly now these two are meant to be like.

In some way shape or form. Thicker sleeves. Yeah. No doubt, they now these two are meant to be like, yeah. Rob, anybody I want to talk about quickly, because the way his reaction to the shovels at the mound is written, because we so rarely see Fiegel's other than the Kelder having a serious moment. Or maybe the oddgonagal here and there. But here when Tiffany's trying to calm, she's not really trying to calm down the guards with the shovels. They've stopped. She's trying to stop the Fiegls from getting the swords out and climbing up trance legs. And Rob anybody's face was dripping tears and he was pulling desperately as his beard as he fought the

horrors of his own imagination. They were an inch from more, Tiffany reckoned. Yeah, watching a very fighty and powerful warrior brought low like, not brought low like that, but you know, brought to just inconsolability like that. And the fear of what will happen if the worst has come to pass, because when Fiegls fight normally it's sort of for the joy of fighting and they go on fighting after they've beat everything else up, they brawl and it's fun. But a Fiegel with a vengeance on him. CHARLEYY Yes. And I mean, you know, not to bring everything back to Vimes, except definitely to bring everything back to Vimes as I always will forever. It's very much like, you know, Vimes storming into that nursery with the summoning dark driving him. He will murder everyone inside if somebody is hurt.

Yeah running up the stairs screaming I'll kill you. Yeah there is no doubt that anyone in breach will die. Yeah. Amber. Amber on the other side of the murder spectrum.. Not at all murdery, I would say. I love the way she's learned to stand up for herself very quickly. So Tiffany talks to Amber and says, you know, I'm going to take you home. And Tiffany thinks to herself, at least I'm not stupid enough to say something like, won't that be nice?

Yes. And Tiffany's response is, if he misses me, he'll just have to try and hit me again. And even calls Tiffany out and says, I thought you weren't stupid. Yeah, no, exactly. And I mean, Tiffany, as we said last week, Tiffany's just not making sense here was trying to take her back. And then she realizes finally, and she goes back to that old, you know, favorite one of sin starts when you treat people like things. Yeah, but in a new light, it's not the vampire-y treating people like things. It's, it would happen if you thought there was a thing called a father and a thing called a mother and a thing called a

daughter and a thing called a cottage. And if you put them all together, you had a thing called a happy family. Yeah, yeah. But Tiffany's like forced into this position. She has to do something with Amber for her own reputation, not really to benefit Amber. position. She has to do something with Amber for her own reputation, not really to benefit Amber. Yes. Yeah, she can't just leave her under the... And not just for her own reputation, but I mean, for the sake that otherwise people dig into the feagal mound. Yeah.

She needs to... Yeah, she needs to put Amber back in the world of humans because otherwise humans and feagles will go to war and nobody's going to be happy about that. Yeah, that's not going to end well. But she has the calm conversation with Tiffany later after she's been taken to the castle and they've slept and the room is on fire. And she can't really ask, you know, did my baby die? Yes. And she asks about her father and then she says, I'll understand. Yes. And then, so she does eventually go back, although not to live, just to be there, but

she does it, she gets to choose to do it herself. Yes, yeah. She's not dragged back kicking and screaming. No. And we learn about her fiance and the way, the moment she's asked about him, she lights up and tells us all about William, the talented Taylor's not quite apprentice. Also we've got them Wee Mad Arthur. Wee Mad Arthur. A character I have definitely mixed up with Buggy Swires in the past.

Me too, time and time again. But he discovers he's a feagle, not a gnome. What a delight, what a bastard. The feagles laugh and laugh when he thought he might be a gnome. And he's sort of, why can you talk properly? No one else can, but I'm definitely not a Fiegel. Yeah, I love that this is nature, not nurture, the Fiegel dialect. Oh yeah, he was found by a sparrow hawk that he'd strangled to death. Yeah, the very Fiegel beginning to a foundling story. Perfectly done, I think.

And temporary he's on an exchange program and going to visit the Chalk and learn about his Fiegel heritage. But he's a very cultured Fiegel who loves the opera and the ballet. Yeah. Yeah. Which, De Flabbergast had me chuckling to myself for a minute. Oh yeah? I've missed a joke, haven't we? It's a parody of Deflatermouse, which is a famous opera. I just thought Deflabbergast is a very funny...

I quite like Swan on a Hot Tin Roof. Swan on a Hot Tin Roof also made me chuckle. It's like a lower barrel one maybe. Something for everyone. And then speaking of bringing everything back to Vimes, let's briefly talk about Vimes, let's briefly talk about Vimes because he's here and we can't not. We got a character through fresh eyes. And we got it with Carrot and with Angra as well, but it's most fun with Vimes. It is, because you always get to see him striding towards the new character with the stony face.

Yep, looking furious. And this is Spill Words, this idea of Spill Words gets introduced in the section and used to great effect with Vines. Yes, because it's fun because you get to see Vines as somebody who knows him a bit better might see him. Angwa would be able to see Vines not say these things. Whereas Tiffany can see them because she's a witch, because there's a lot more context about who he is. We get the very quick backstory of his ancestors killing kings, how much he dislikes the monarchy. One king. One king.

And he's trying to explain to Tiffany why he's still pissed off about the pub when it's been put back the wrong way around. The building is found the next morning looking all shiny and new, albeit facing the wrong way. That too and therefore those involved are nevertheless still criminals and then the spill words of except I've no idea what to call it and quite frankly, I would rather be shot of the whole damn business. Yes. And then the idea of just kind of humiliating the king many years post-mortem with the boil on the neck. Yeah. Delighted. Delighted. Delighted. Delighted. It was as always 100% done with this shit. And then we should

probably talk about the cunning man a little bit. Oh, I suppose so. Yeah, we'll come back to the cunning man, I'm sure later in the episode. But yeah, just some of the descriptions and horror here is great. Yeah, oh, it is. Yeah, it's fantastic. He is, I'd say, you know, I've probably said this before, but I'm going to say it again and mean it. Maybe the most affecting Pratchett Billion villain. Villain.

So affecting I added another syllable. This idea of these no eyes, two holes in his head and specifically seeing through to the smoldering fields beyond because we're at the time of the stubble burnings, you get extra bit of fire to him. Yeah. Yeah. A stink, a stench, a foulness in her mind, dreadful and unforgiving, a compost of horrible ideas and rotted thoughts that made her want to take out her brain and wash it. Yes. Yes. This idea of sort of manifesting as a stench because there isn't a six dimensional word for... Yes. And then the wonderful, you know, the double meaning of the word corruption. Yes. Being used to greater factor. And the smell of this, when it's described as like

the smell at the bottom of a pond or a lake or whatever, it's like, oh, I get it now. Oh, it's fucking terrible, dreadful. And then yet it's a sticky kind of smell. It is a sticky, sticky smell. I won't say the hurdy-gurdy of the smell of the smell world, because I don't wish to upset the hurdy-gurdians. We're fans of the noble hurdy-gurdy, remember? I'm only referring to hurdy-gurdies as the noble hurdy-gurdy. But yeah, and then the backstory as told by Esk, like fuck. Oh, the idea that he thinks that he can rescue this witch and it's so one sided. It's very Huntback of Notre Dame Disney Esk, if I will. Did you also say that? very parasocial relationship with this witch and it doesn't follow the

fucking fairy, just stay at the fairy tale where she would love him back because she doesn't know he loves her or maybe she does but she doesn't give a shit because he's a terrible fucking human being even before all of the burning and the burnings. she pulls him into the fire. He's a torturer, he's an omnien torturer. Yeah, when he's introduced, when Exk introduces him she said he is a witch finder and a book burner and a torturer because people older than him who are far more vile than him have told him that this is what the great god Om wants him to be. The way that's described is like the big small gods call back there. Yeah, yeah. We talked about the torturers and small gods. Neorquisitors and Phobos. call back there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like we talked about, yeah, the torturers and small gods.

The acquisitors and Vorbis. Yeah, he's one of those. He's the travelling one of those. Except then he gets like worse than Vorbis. A fate worse than Vorbis. I mean, Vorbis got a pretty clean death. Compared to the cunning man, who's not so much die as just went from a horrible burned mess to continuing. Yeah. Yeah. And you get like the kind of hint that he did, you know, die from this life because people came to their senses a bit, which is a nice delimit of hope.

And they're coming back and forth. Yeah, that just the imagery of the witch reaching through the wicker basket. And pulling him close and it's like this perversion of a romantic moment of holding someone. And I think this comes from, if not an old folktale and based on something, reality, that we came across when we were reading about Agnes Nutter. And we did not find somebody who hid gunpowder up their skirts, but we did find somebody who took someone with them as they went. So we need to go back through our notes for this. That's just occurred to me. All right. That'll be a troll story.

Five years. Our notes from almost five years ago. Yeah, maybe I'll just go back to the book. Locations that I want to quickly talk about Angk Moorpork because of seeing something from a fresh perspective as with vimes delights me. Angk Moorpork, it's a wonderful town. Oh, well that was the introduction. Yes, it was. Yeah. Did your brain do what mine did, which is then here Springfield, Springfield, New York, New York. No, but now it will. Hey, mister, New York's that-a-way. Certain Simpsons moments that live rent-free in my brain, including, I think both my sister and I

can't say New York without the other person saying, Hey, mister, New York's that-a-way. See, I can't hear the phrase guys and dolls without the Simpsons version being in my head for the rest of the day. Guys and dolls, we're just a bunch of crazy guys and dolls. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. GARNES Honestly, streetcar named Desire, it just ruined for me. But yeah, as I talked about, the designer of stones is a foundation for witches and city witches is a newish concept for us. And for us explaining this relationship, they've got the watch, the watch know that people need witches, the unofficial people who understand

the difference between right and wrong and when right is wrong and wrong is right. The world needs people who work around the edges. Obviously, that line delights me. Obviously. But yeah, it's fun. And of course, and then we got a visit to the Unreal Estate into the bargain and we love a little trip to the Unreal Estate. It's now we've got a little cottage in the Unreal Estate countryside. Let's not think about it too hard. Now, again, I'm not thinking about it too, too hard. But because we went straight from the sewers to that. Is it under street level? Do you think? Or is it just a dimensional?

I think it's a little bit dimensional. Yeah, but where they were was under street level. If you insist on thinking in a strictly three dimensional space. It's not that I insist is that I'm not very capable of thinking outside of one. Clearly you're just not trying hard enough. Give me a few more energy drinks and we'll attempt the next dimension. We should probably finish the podcast first. Little bits we liked then. Yeah. Hard done by monologues. Yes, go on. There's a couple of moments, little characters who are just having a bad day and need to have a little rant about it.

And when Pratchett writes it, it makes me chuckle. So we have Glossal carpet layer, the male coach driver, none of his family are carpet layers. And you know, the supervisor will have to be told because it's damage to paintwork. You've got to do a report when it's damaged to paintwork. I hate reports, never been a man. Words come to me with these, but you've got to do it when it's damaged to paintwork. You've got to do it when it's damaged to paintwork. You've got to do it when it's damaged to paintwork. He didn't sound angry, just worn out as if he permanently expected the world to hand him the dirty end of the stick. And sidebar because I couldn't

put this anywhere else but the scandal of the waltz. Oh yeah, we're back to the waltz. Yes. Well brought up young lady shouldn't know about because it says in the paper that it leads to depravity and goings on. Yes. Yes. We were so surprised when we learned that. Yeah, there was a real moral panic about the waltz when it came to. Yes, yes. We talked about it during one episode or another.

It emulates rolling down a hill in each other's arms or something. Yes, very much so. And then we have the dwarf mechanic and this is obviously a lovely parody. I'm sure Conversations Prash has had to suffer through in his life. As if the sight of the thing had really spoiled his day and he might have to go and have a little cry. It's Elm, isn't it? It's a lowlander. Your Elm. There's something about the Yore in this. Struck by lightning, was it not good wood for lightning? Your Elm attracts it, so they say, tendency to owls as well. Tenancy to owls. That's an album title. Or YA, young adult fantasy novel title, The Tendency to Owls.

And then not quite as hard done by a bit of similar flavor, Constable Haddock, who's got to give you a warning, but no one quite knows what to warn you about. So if I was you, I consider myself generally in the situation of being warned, as it were, in a general and generically non specific way and hopefully slightly chastened by the experience, no offence meant, I'm sure. I like that we now cut out Constable Haddock when we need a constable who can be reasonable and reflective of Vimes' training while not being as character laden as the rest of them. Yeah, he comes out to be a little bit calm and reasonable and then I guess goes back

in his box and does whatever Constable Hattock does. Just does normal, like, warf't know, more for coppering. Yep, I'm sure at some point on his days off, he wears a cardigan and smokes a pipe. Yeah. Yeah. Good lad. Probably got an allotment. Oh, God, an ink more for.

Well, someone's got to grow the humorously shaped vegetables. Oh, gosh, that's true. Yeah, I suppose they probably do have allotments. Shambles brackets large, Francie. Yeah, I like Esques shambles. What a fun extension of the theory. It's sort of a shambles installation. Yes, yes. So which made shambles out of anything you have in your pockets. I also like the reminder that you might try and keep something interesting in your pocket. Yes. So you don't accidentally bring out like a used plaster and broken pencil and, and I don't know what's embarrassing you might have in your

pocket. I don't know. I would not have an aesthetically pleasing shambles I can tell you. I've not even got pockets at the moment so I can't test myself here but usually it's probably a pen, some dog treats. CHARLEYY A broken lighter, never a functioning one but a broken lighter. NICOLA Or sunglasses at least. CHARLEYY Yep. A badge either the front or the back because I've lost the other half at some point. NICOLA Hence the pocket. CHARLEYY Hence the pocket.

NICOLA So we should probably start carrying around an interesting bit of wood, a piece of lace and a silver pin. Merle Yeah, quite possibly. Jessi But Tiffany generally had one pocket just shambles ingredients. But if Miss Spith had made this shambles the same way, then she had pockets larger than a wardrobe, and it nearly touched the ceiling, and it's got all sorts in it. And I quite like the spinning wheel and the pin cushion, which is a little fairy tale adjacent inclusion. Obviously the fact that we've got the wizard staff son's knob.

And of course, the horse's skull. And of course, the horse's skull with lipstick. So if you were to build a giant shambles out of the stuffing, like the clutter in your house. We've talked about what we'd make a little shambles out of before. What kind of stuff would you want to include? Do you think? I mean, there's going to be half empty notebooks in there somewhere. Some of this I'm saying because I'm currently sat in my sewing room, but I'm sure there probably would be a lot of lengths of ribbon and fabric scraps holding everything together because they're all over the shop, especially at the moment because I've got sewing projects on. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there's a few paintbrushes of mine that's gonna be I've got a nice like a

little carriage clock. I think that would go in there somewhere. That's one of my nice sub possessions. Pins, Post-its, probably for something alive, it'll be a plant that I'm just keeping alive because I'm bad at keeping plants alive. Yeah. I've got, do you know what I'm saying? I've got a rat skull right there. Yeah, well, I thought you had a rat skull. And a magnetic goose. Well, no, it's a different rat skull. I threw away the first rat skull. This skull came pre-skulled. Oh, that's good.

It wasn't a head. So Jack has brought me a skull. That's requested. Romance in your life. This one's not even for me. I'm passing it on to Becky because she wants to do some art. And yeah, magnetic goose probably going to go in there. Yeah, my Lego tall neck probably going to end up in there. Nice. Yeah. Let's be honest, ours are not going to be as cool as Esk's. No, I don't have a horse skull. Yet. Yet. If anyone wants to get me a horse skull. I know I'd feel weird about that. I would quite- A fake horse skull.

Yeah, I would quite like an onion with rigging on it. I wouldn't mind a seagoing onion for preparing fish dishes. Yeah. It would make a nice accompaniment to the, you know, the eggshell that we're going to go to see into round sailors. Absolutely. Yeah. Now I'm wondering, I'm now picturing a sea faring onion, but like as a ship in a bottle. Oh, pickled onion. Or it's like part ship in a bottle, part terrarium. ship in a bottle part terrarium. Okay. And now I want to make right. No, don't know. You brought this up you started talking about shambles. I'm sorry, I started talking about shambles. Therefore Joanna has to put an onion in a bottle with rigging. Superb. Yeah, completely reasonable. Take some fucking responsibility for your awful mind. I don't know why you're being weird about this.

I think this is totally- Well, obviously I'll do it as well, but I'm not happy about it. Also, now it's my fault that you've got to put an onion in the bottle. Look, I haven't been a chef for more years than I want to try and count right now. And I still always have slightly oniony fingers. I can't help it. It's just who I am as a person. Alliums, eh? So. Horses. Speaking of horse skulls, horses not skeletal. Mm-hmm. Horses, brackets. Non-skeletal. Brackets. Bronze.

Bronze and various things. The horse statue folklore footnote, I forgot the word for footnote there. I was thinking post-it note and that's not what happened. The post-it note is in the book or something else. Yeah, they're yours. Yes, I did that. So the footnote explains the code and the number and placement of the horse's hooves in a statue and of course we get the great- Is that real? No, I did have a quick look. It's kind of an urban legend thing. If you actually look

at various horse statues, especially in England and America, there's no real correlation. I wonder if it's now going to be one of those things where- There are sometimes newer statues that are built with this in mind, but because it's not a thing, because it's not like a thing, because it's an urban legend, there's also no real agreement over what the different positions mean. But it's just going to muddy the waters even further in 100 years, which is fun. Exactly. But yeah, it's an urban legend, a folkloric thing. It's not something that's

ever been sort of properly done. We must build this this way because this, apart from on rare occasions. But yes, and then I also like the joke, four legs in the air means the sculptor was very clever. Five legs means there's probably at least one other horse. And if the rider is lying on the ground with his horse lying on top of him with all four legs in the air, the rider was very incompetent or owned a very bad tempered horse. I quite like the idea of a horse dealing with being in a bad mood by just I'm just gonna lie on you. Because I've seen horses be real dicks.

Yeah, yeah. By the horizon, my friend. God, I love horses. Um, what about you? What else you like? Dreamfire Dreamfire. That sounds like a bad name someone gives themselves when they're 13 years old. Oh, doesn't it? My name's Ebony Raven. Dementia Darkness Waylick Knight. Dreamfire. The dream omen where she wakes up and covered in flames that don't hurt. I just think that's very cool. Very cool inventory. And you can lift up, lifting up the flames. It's like a feather. And that reminded me of, now now listeners, you're gonna have to help me out here.

I have a feeling on thinking about it. I'm thinking of Harry Potter and possibly Forks feathers here. And they're like being a flame you can lift up on your finger. But am I thinking of anything else? Any other scene in a book? Possibly Discworld, where somebody lifts up a flame like that. I've just got that image in my head. The only other scene it kind of reminds me of is Hal's moving castle, where she moves the talking fire and she moves him and... Maybe. Is it in the book as well? I've never watched it but I've read it. Oh, I've not read the book. I've only seen the film.

Probably. I'm going to watch the film soon actually. I keep meaning to. It is good. It's one of my favorites. And I've been meaning to read the book for so long. So many people have told me that I will absolutely love it. We should try and do a film book club swap one day. Yes. We'll never get around to it. Let's be realistic. Anyway, I just liked it. I think little dream moments like that are cool, especially if you can't as you can't tell at this point, like whether it's a warning or a part of the overall unpleasantness or what. And Tiffany's very calm reaction as well of waking up to the room on fire of, well, I

wonder. There was also, I quite like the line, Tiffany got carefully out of the burning bed and if this was a dream, it was making a very good job of the tinkles and pings that the ancient bed traditionally made. That's one of those, am I dreaming moments where you're like, this is very realistic in very mundane ways if I am dreaming. But you know, being Tiffany fire, witch hating. Oh, don't yeah, fuck me. Sorry, that was a horrible segue. Yeah, so we talked about and I can't remember in how much detail, but about witch hunts in general. Yeah, we definitely talked about it in good omens. We've talked about it through some of the other witches books.

People writes probably. But it's always been just this vast unpleasantness and it's so hard to hone in on anything. I mean, we live in a town that... How many did they hang in one day? 18. I should know that because it's from the song 18 Witches Hanging. Yeah, we've got a really good local band called Thy Lost Drop who do a lovely song called 18 Witches Hanging. Yeah, it's a very good song.

band called Thy Lost Drop who do a lovely song called Aseem Witches Hanging. Yeah, it's a very good song. Thingo Hill. East Anglia was a hub for witch hunts and that kind of thing. Who I think might have been a slight inspiration for the cunning man in certain ways, as much as he is, I think, an inspiration for any awful witch hunt, witch finder character. Witch finder general type people. Yeah, good oer general type people. Yeah, at Good Oatmans as well. However, while I was trying to find out about cunning folk,

I came across some interesting things. So cunning folk as a concept, that the kind of big time for these is the same-ish time as witch hunts and things. So we're talking 16th century really? Yeah. 15th, 16th century. So cunning folk were folk healers. They were wise folks. They were witches, but they weren't called witches. They were the good magicers generally. They saw themselves as the healers. Good with herbs. Yeah. When Victorians would write about them, they might call them white witches, for instance, but at the time they would never have call them white witches, for instance,

but at the time they would never have called themselves white witches because the word witch was anathema. Yeah. But I found while I was reading about this in an old article from the Folklore Society, which is honestly one of my best value purchases each year, from 1960, this article was, and it's about a chap called Cunning Murrell. Now Murrell is a surname that's still quite common around these parts, these parts being East Anglia. And this chap, James Murrell or Cunning Murrell,

was born in Rochford, Nessix in 1780, died 1860 at the age too ripe and old for my liking. He had various professions. For 50 years, he was a practicing cunning man. And he provided services such as exorcising evil spirits. He practiced astrology. He was known for predicting deaths and things very accurately. He restored lost and stolen property. He'd heal animals with this amulet he had. He bought warts. Tamdrin, do you know about this method? Oh, yeah. If you've got a wart, someone gives you a penny and they buy the wart from you and it goes away.

Yeah. I hadn't even heard of this until fairly, like really recently, like a last month or two. And apparently, like it's still a way that people try and get rid of warts. Yeah. It's like a placebo thing, I guess. Anyway, and he destroyed witches. Right. So he was kind of a witch, but I'm assuming misogyny was at play here. Oh, isn't it always? But yes, almost certainly. But there were cunning women as well. And quite often, these cunning folk, I don't know how often, often enough that it's popped up several times while I've been reading about it, would help track down real witches and use their cunning ways. So yeah, fucking class traitors much.

But also it keeps authorities off their back, they're not suspected if they're doing the hunting. Exactly. However, in this case, he went above and fuck and beyond. He was a very prolific and zealous witch hunter. In 50 years of witch hunting, says the article, he succeeded in agitating the old fear of witchcraft into something like a mania. Right. And we've got to remember, this is in the 1700s, 1800s. We are talking a couple hundred years after the peak of this stuff. And here

we return to the cyclical nature of the witch panic. As in the book. His preferred method, or at least one of his preferred methods was destroying witches using witch bottles. Have we talked about witch bottles before? Merle If we have, I don't remember. Tanya Okay, so you got a little bottle, and you put bits of the witch in it. So hair, nail clippings, that kind of thing. And you treat it like a little voodoo doll basically. You can put other things in there as well, like the magic key bits. He may cast iron bottles, it's quite

interesting. But you can find witch bottles and things in auctions and such. Oh, right. Yeah, it's a whole thing. And then, you know, quite often, it's done not for witches, but somebody you just wanted to curse or that kind of thing. And it was the kind of thing you might find bricked up in old buildings as well, you know, along with your cat. So for half a crown, he would provide services such as this horrible, horrible story I'm about to tell and like actually trigger warning. So maybe skip forward a minute if you're not up for hearing violent stuff today. So a young woman found an old gypsy

hiding in a barn and ordered her out. She was a witch and she cursed the girl who presently began to scream like a cat and bark like a dog. Marle was called in. He placed in the fire a bottle containing hair and nail clippings from the victim. He told everyone to be absolutely silent while they awaited the arrival of the witch. Presently there came a hammering on the door and a woman's voice begged him to stop the test as the fire was causing her agony. The bottle burst. On the following morning an old woman was found burned to death outside the woodcutter's arms three miles away.

It was the gypsy. The girl recovered." So I mean, what happened that was someone murdered a witch. Yeah, murder a witch murdered a traveler. Yeah. And blamed it on this fire bottle in the fire. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, super. He was this moral fellow did this kind of shit all the time. It was also a massive fucking gossip and like a, you know, the spider chaffee from Game of Thrones level type thing. Oh, yeah, virus. Thank you. The spider chaffee. He collected information on everybody in the

neighborhood. He has servant girls who would send him information from London and collected all of this and he used it to devastate anybody he wanted to take down a peg or two or completely ruin depending on the severity. He left a trunk full of diaries and homemade books and everything, which was enragingly burned in the 50s by somebody who didn't know what it was. Before his possessions were destroyed, they were described by somebody I think in the 1800s. And apparently among his magical instruments seen after his death was a trick telescope, which enabled him to see through brick walls. This is, you know, this is botho, this pure botho all this stuff. His other apparatus included the crystal, the mirror, the bowl of water,

and it is said a copper charm with which he could distinguish the true man from the liar. said a copper charm with which he could distinguish the true man from the liar. His death certificate is a bit more satisfying and it laconically, as the article says, states, James Murrell, profession quack doctor, natural causes. In spite, it goes on, of the claim of a rival wizard, a Rayleigh man, that he had most naturally done for Morrill by means of his own witch bottle. So yeah, I should say, by the way, that cunning men would often refer to themselves as wizards, wizards did not have the same connotation as witch. Well, this we've definitely talked about when we did the last Science of Disquil book, because

I'm slightly obsessed with John Dee and his wizardly figure. He was the Queen's wizard. His wizardly figure, he's saying the same like a girlish figure. I'm working on my wizardly figure. Yes, I will have a third to use board. Thank you so much. I've got a bit of a wizardly figure and I'm very proud of it. A fine figure of a wizard. Oh no. Yeah, no picture apparently of Moral Survive, but I thought you might be interested in the description of his outward appearance by all accounts. He was a very little man, described as wearing a hard hat and a bobbed tailcoat his hands behind him. He used to walk along humming loudly and lost in thought. He invariably carried a basket and a whalebone umbrella.

He wore iron goggles, which gave him somewhat frightening appearance and scared away children, of whom he was actually very fond. He, 20 kids or something like that. And everybody remembered him remembered him fondly. You know, anyone that folklorists talk to their descendants of people who've known him or people who knew him for the earlier folklorists, you know, saw him as the good guy. This was not a myth that was busted in his time. He really succeeded in bringing back the mania of witch hating. And so yeah, I think he's a really good like I reckon Pratchett read this article or one of the papers it was based on. And I reckon this was at least in part inspiration for the cunning man, the fact he was known as cunning man, he was from the area that Pratchett would have

researched in depth. There are obvious parallels and yeah, also the fact that he reignited this old fear a couple of hundred years after its heyday, you know, and he reignited not only the fear but a lot of the old methods of cunning man. People have drawn parallels between his methods and the ones used in the 16th century. And that there's some, it wasn't necessarily revived after all that time. There's some evidence to show that people like this were operating throughout, just not as prominently. Yeah. But yeah, this is just, yeah, unsettlingly recent history and fucking terrible and really interesting. Little rabbit hole.

I felt that. Cunning Murrell. What a twat. What an ass. I was about to say a different word there. Yes, I know. And it so easily almost falls off the tongue when you talk about a cunning man, doesn't it? What a cunning stunt. What a Yep. What a cunning stunt. What a Jeremy. What a Burke. Joanna, tell me about the obviously connected topic of the moral panic in this book. Well, yeah, you talk about the witch stuff becoming cyclical and this idea of moral

panic is cyclical and it's like the same thing when coming back again or the same thing in a slightly new light. And this book is painfully well written because it feels, although it's writing about something we don't live through an experience, it feels really familiar. Yes. And it's really well done. So in the first section and into the beginning of this, you have this kind of careful build of how this anti witch sentiment is starting to spread. So you have a glass of carpet there. And he sort of everybody knows witches do nasty things and Pratchett is very good at employing and everybody knows. Yes, yes. I reckon. They say.

They say. What is it everyone says about dwarfs? Yes. Excuse me, could you tell me what everyone knows about dwarfs? Because I don't know and I'm a dwarf. I don't know if I'm doing it right. And after, even after Tiffany helps him, he doesn't change his mind about witches. It's sort of, well, I expect those were the wicked old ones with hood noses and not nice girls like you that sort of thing they would do. Yeah, you're one of the good ones.

And he settled that conundrum for himself and happily whistles all the way to Aikmoreport. And Rowland's reaction of why did he die? I thought you were good at being a witch. If you're a witch, why did he die? And Angua warning Pris and Tiffany, she says there's been another case out on the plane, the planes of an old lady being built, beaten up for having a book of spells. It's Mrs Snappley again. Yeah, since she died. Yeah. In this case, it was Clatchy and poetry. And you get this really sharp representation of how this social fear has started to break other rules when you have the shovels at the mound.

Yes, yes. Because when this panic starts to take hold, it allows so many other social rules to break down. Just like the basic rules of not being a shit person. Yeah. And immediately going into treating people like things, like the people like things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, as lesser. When Tiffany at her most granny aching, if you cut the turf, there will be a reckoning. That will be a fucking reckoning. Yeah.

I love a reckoning. There will be a reckoning as a like a refrain. And it comes to a head and we have the introduction of the cunning man in this section, obviously, and we start and the full explanation of like this anti witch sentiment is coming back around and it's the cunning man is a big part of it. But it's not all the cunning man. There has to be room for it to go somewhere. What was the line? Poison goes where poison goes where poison is welcome, which I actually mentioned last week thinking it was from a previous book and it's not, it's from this book, it's just really stuck in

my brain. But yeah, it comes to a head with Roland being in charge and starting to almost believe these twisted stories. He asked Tiffany, you know, did you kill my father? Did you steal from him? And the way the story's been twisted, did you try to throttle Pessy? Did you beat him with nettles and fill his cottage with demons? Because not demons. And then just like that, it's something that Tiffany is now surrounded by and dealing with wherever she walks. She goes to the kitchen to try and help the cook who was screaming at these frogs and the cook starts screaming hatred at her. And say, oh, you were strutting around giving orders to your elders and betters. At the moment, the anti-witch stuff starts coming out. Any other reason people

could find to dislike Tiffany comes out. Niamh And she's not media trained. Ange 1 She's really not done a VR course. Niamh Yeah. How can you think ahead to think how people would spin getting the feagles to clean a house? Exactly. And then you have this introduction of the cunning man as this, again, it doesn't cause the sentiment so much as it's a catalyst for it, it makes it all burn up a lot faster. This poison goes where poison's welcome, which Prue says, and she follows that with,

there's always an excuse to throw a stone at the old lady who looks funny. It's always easier to blame somebody. In the story about the cunning man, it says you'd have a quiet little village, everyone got on reasonably well, no one noticed any witches at all, but when the cunning man arrived, suddenly there were witches everywhere, not for very long. I'm just thinking about this in the context of Borough Panics, which is something we've both talked about a lot and also we're very familiar with because of the Sarah Marshall and Michael Hobbs Cinemasequine verse. Sarah So you can say because it's the moral panics we have every morning for breakfast. Sarah Different flavour of moral panic. Should I sacrifice these Cheerios?

Yeah, so you have this, we see this moral panic builds up and the reason it's tough to read this history of actual witch hunts and now it turns into panics about other things. I have this very on the brim recently, partly because I just listened to a very good episode of Maintenance Phase where they talked about debunking these claims about rapid onset gender dysphoria. Oh, I haven't debunked that yet. It's a very good episode and they debunk a lot of ridiculous transphobic claims and they talk about it in reality. But it's also, the CAS report has just come out and there's a

lot of misinformation about trans healthcare in the media right now. I saw someone saying on Twitter, a trans woman basically saying, yeah, no, we're in a moral panic and in about 10 years, everyone will be looking back at it and going, how did everyone get so ridiculous? And I'm going to be invited to be on a podcast and I have to calmly say, yes, and those statistics were bullshit and politely smiled through it when we're all fucking saying it now. Yeah. It's similarly to this, to the whole, you know, the cutting man driven moral witch hunt as well. Yeah. Is I feel like, you know, I'll listen to this episode. And I, I've read the debunkings of the

cast report. And I know much, you know, I can't memorize fucking everything. But I know the counterpoints to every bit of bullshit I usually hear. It doesn't fucking matter. No, the same way. There are people I've known and do know that talk like this and just say, well, no, that's bullshit because this and it doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't matter. They don't care. No, and it's the same thing happened with the satanic panic, which again is what I'm familiar with from Sarah Marshall talking about it. And as the episode of maintenance phase pointed out, it's what happened when equal

marriage and gay marriage was being discussed 10 years ago. A lot of it's identical rhetoric. These moral panic things are cyclical. They just occasionally, we've moved on from witches and they find new targets every time. It's incredibly good writing because it punches really close to home. I think the line that sums it up the best comes from Esk and she's explaining the ridiculous things people start believing about witches, including the eggshells, women going to sea in eggshells to drown sailors, which is a real bit of folklore about witches. She says, no, don't say it would be impossible for even a small witch to get inside an eggshell without crushing it because that is what we in the craft would call a logical argument and therefore no one who wanted to believe that witches

sank ships would pay any attention to it. And if that doesn't summarize. Yeah. And therefore no one who believed that a man would transition into a woman in order to win a sports competition would want to hear a logical argument about it. Yeah. So I actually, I genuinely found a lot of the section really tough to read because yeah, I'm sure. I'm angry a lot at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. It is. Yeah, there's nothing to say. It's fucking shit. It's awful. It's fucking shit. Yeah. To Tiffany it slightly. Yes. Sorry, I've gotten way away from the book at this point.

It's fine. I thought it was interesting that once or twice it was pointed out that she gets another chance in a conversation because she doesn't look like a witch. And so the coach driver, for instance, and I think one or two other people, but you don't look like this, that the other and then Mrs. Proust talks about how, you know, you're an ugly old woman, you're gonna get a rock thrown at you type thing. And it's interesting that I think Pratchett notes, she gets she gets another chance she if she looked like Mrs. Proust or even like nanny Og or even like Reni Weatherwax, she wouldn't get as far as she does with people. That's quite interesting to think about.

CHARLEYY I especially within the context of this book being I shall wear midnight of Tiffany has chosen to not look like a witch yet. Just to cheer us up before we go on to the obscure reference, Finneel, the lovely line from a husband kissing a woman without warts was eating like eating an egg without salt. Oh my gosh. Oh, fuck. Do you know what? We're about to hit the obscure reference finial and none of the rest of shoehorned in the bit about the first, second, third and fourth sorts lining up to scream at Tiffany. No, but relatable. Yeah, but the fact that something got right, because actually,

do you know what, this should have gone in right at the beginning. But I want to talk about why did she step out of her fucking body? Yeah, right. Did we learn this? We should know. I suppose maybe she's like immune now. I once read the page to like see if he'd put something in about left a little bit. And obviously she's learned and it's better than it was. But even so, it clearly left her open a bit more than she would have been because she had this thought about like reaching and stopping someone's heart and then all of a thoughts went no. But then that was that was a good like reference back to the first section where it was you know,

sometimes thoughts drop in your head unbidden and the rest of your thoughts need to stamp on them. Yes, but this one really did come from somewhere else. Yeah. But yeah, no, I'm wondering if like she sort of thought, well, I've had one Hiver, and it's like chickenpox, like I've had it and now I'm immune. But like a Hiver is cowpox and the Cunning Man is smallpox, except it doesn't work like that turns out. Yeah. Speaking of someone who's had shingles.

Right, anyway, we're just gonna derail. Joanna, the empath, it was like, oh, yeah, no, I don't want to be possessed by the cunning man. I've had shingles. Identical. Absolutely. Not as fragrant. Francine, please tell me you've got an obscure reference for me to shut me out, please. I do. It's very unrelated to all of this you'll be pleased to hear, although it's pretty short. Just literally the bit about small beer and children drinking small beer because it was just alcoholic enough not to have a lot of parasites in or whatever. Yeah. Erasmus Darwin, who I've mentioned before, possibly he was the

one who wrote that book of erotic plant poetry. Oh, that guy. Yeah. That would have been a rabbit hole actually. But in his A Plan for the Conduct of Female Education in Boarding Schools, published in 1797, Erasmus Darwin agreed that for the drink of the more robust children, water is preferable, but for the weaker ones, small beer. Children can cope with water. But if you're a bit of a lottisha, you've got to have beer, you can't cope with water. But if you're a bit of a letitia. Yeah, you've got to have beer, you can't cope with water. Incredible. You're too bland already. If we give you water, you'll just dissolve.

Oh my gosh, yes. Imagine if it was about the parasites, just about diluting the children. Oh no, this child is too dilute. Oh no, this child is too dilute. But it's more squashing. Right, I think that's everything we're gonna say about part two of A Vicious Webbing Night, because we could say a lot of other things. But we've managed to turn our frowns outside. Oh no, I've turned them back the right way. We're gonna be back next week with part three, which begins at chapter 10 and goes all the

way to the end of the book. All of it. We're not leaving any, not leaving any left like one page for a bonus episode, I promise. Unless we just forget it. Until next week, dear listener, please write and review us wherever you get your podcasts because it helps other people find us and the algorithms and such. The algorithms. Your Elm is very prone to algorithms. Plus that one mean review we got a few weeks ago is still visible so I want a few more

reviews on Apple podcasts so just push that one down. Speaking of Apple podcasts, I think a couple of people said they've had problems with it. If anyone does, can you let us know because we're trying to troubleshoot it. It's quite hard. Yeah, the interface is fine from our end. Yeah, but I don't know if that's because we're not in America. Anyway, sorry. Yeah. So please write and review us wherever you get your podcasts. It helps people find us Cursed Algorithms, Elm, etc. You can also join our Discord link down below. Follow us on Instagram at the True Shamakee Fret on Twitter and Blue Sky at Makeefretpod, follow us on Facebook at The True Shamakee Fret, join our subreddit rslash ttsmyf, email us your thoughts, queries, castles, snacks and furious postcards and burning broomsticks at the true shamakeefretpod at gmail.com, and if you want to support us financially and why would you, go to patreon.com forward

slash the true shamakeefret where you can exchange your hard-earned pennies for all sorts of bonus nonsense. And until next time, dear listener, Don't let us detain you. Stop the press. Stop the press. Because I saw on Twitter during one of the breaks another lost Terry Pratchett story found. Oh, the Bominable something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here we go. Here's the new story. We are pleased, brackets delighted, comma ecstatic, to announce that one further lost story by Terry Pratchett has been found. A Stroke of the Pen was published last year. It was at the time believed to be the last stories of his, but one final published tale has been found that was missed from the collection, Arnold the Bobbittable Snowman, and this will appear in the paperback edition of A Stroke

of the Pen, which will publish in September 2024. Finally, to celebrate this unexpected turn of events, Penguin Books are running a contest for your illustration to be printed in this new edition of A Stroke of the Pen. Which is quite cool, so yeah, I'll link to this new story..... Thank you.