The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 145: Snuff Pt. 1 (Don't Mention the Fourth Wall)

Episode Date: June 2, 2024

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 1 of our recap of “Snuff”. Trees! Sheep! What?Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretDiscord: https://discord.gg/29wMyuDHGP Want to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:My Last Landlady, Neil Gaiman - YouTube Snuff - Colin Smythe  Terry Pratchett interview - Snuff (Fast Forward) - YouTube An interview with Sir Terry Pratchett (with Neil Gaiman) - Boing Boing  Garden hermit - Wikipedia He's hired: Belgian lands 'dream job' as hermit for Austrian cliffside retreat - The Guardian Hay Festival (@hayfestival) - X Why is it called a Bowler Hat? - Lock & Co. HattersTrout tickling - Wikipedia The ‘Thursday Murder Club’ Books Are Criminally Bad - Gawker (Via  the Wayback Machine) Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

I want a floating Apple. Okay, one for your birthday. I have been to Brighton. Yes, how was Brighton? Yes, I did. It was lovely. I feel like I've had an actual holiday, even though I was away for just two nights. I've eaten lots of nice vegetarian and vegan food because Brighton has that and it's like a Chinese takeaway with vegetarian sweetened chicken balls that kind of thing.

Nice. Very exciting for me. I had bubble tea for the first time. How was that? Nice. Yeah, I had a very not very traditional version. I had like popping pearls instead of tapioca, but it was nice. I enjoyed it. But I like bits and things. I don't know if you do. I'm not a big fan of, yeah, bubble tea does not look appetizing to me, so I've not tried

it. No, I don't think you'd like, you don't like juice with pulp, do you? Not if I can have, yeah, but that's mostly because if I drink orange juice, I'm mixing it with champagne and washing the pulp out of a bottle of champagne flute is very challenging. That is such a huge problem to have with a juice. I love it. Also I'm mildly allergic to orange juice, but really it's the washing the pulp out of the flute thing. Absolutely. We ran around a cool natural history museum, the Booth Natural History Museum,

which has just rows upon rows of stuffed birds in their natural habitat, like little models of their natural habitats. Oh, like little diorama things. I think they were all done in the 1800s. They must have been restored once or twice since then. Well, that wasn't very vegan of you as an activity Francine. We did not, I repeat, did not attempt to eat any of the exhibits. Well, that's good. That's good. Did you go to Brighton Favillion?

We did, yes. Yes, I went around Brighton Favillion. I've never done that before. That was really cool. I loved it. There were many creatures to spot in the decor. And yeah, we saw All Kill and No Fill Her Life, which was the linchpin of the trip. And that was very, very good and cool. And yeah, we saw All Kill a No Fill a Life, which was the lynchpin of the trip. And that was very, very good and cool. All Kill a No Fill a Life, that one's Kiri Pritchard McLean, isn't it? And Rachel Fabin. Amazing. Yeah, I've only listened to odd episodes because it's not like totally my cup of tea, but I really like her.

And yeah, got to see Sunset from the pier. Got to, oh, we found a couple of hag stones on the beach. I've got you one. Thank you. There's loads of hag stones on the beach. I've got you one. Thank you. There's loads of hag stones in Brighton. They've got real stones. Love it. Not just random bits of sharp flint. It's a very nice beach to wander along, but there's a very depressing Neil Gaiman short story about being on Brighton Beach out of season. Is that the...

That has always put me off slightly. Is that the Ksulu we want or is it a different one? being on Brighton Beach out of season. That has always put me off slightly. Is that the Sulu-y one or is it a different one? No, it's my last Landady. Oh, I'm not sure I recall. I think it's in trigger warnings. That's probably the one I've read least, oddly enough. I know that's the newest.

Yeah. No, it's the same for me. I haven't picked up that one. Fragile Things I reread on a fairly regular basis. There's a good recording of him reading it actually. He did this, An Evening with Amanda Palmer thing ages ago. There's quite a lot of good readings of his stuff on there. Nice, we'll try and track it down for linkage. I'm glad you had a nice little holiday. Yeah, it was good. It was nice. I'm having a sort of holiday this weekend. Yes, you're going to Birmingham. I am going to the UK Games Expo, which actually started today, but we have to record the podcast

and I didn't think you wanted me to be recording live from a hotel room. Huge disagree, but yeah. Although it would be funny in the moment, but much harder when I came to edit. So yes, you're right. Thank you. Thank you on behalf of future me. I'm going to look at lots of board games and then probably help Mark Selsen, friend of the Pod Mark Burroughs Selsen looks. So what's going on at the UK Games Expo? What is that? Well, friend of the Pod Mark Burroughs is doing his Magic of Terry Pratchett show, obviously, which has led to me.

Is he ever not? No, no. I don't know of any place he isn't currently doing at this very second. Yeah, it's quite impressive the way he's managed to bend the laws of space and time, but only to talk the magic of Terry Bransher. Genuinely, as far as I can tell, he's done every single venue. But it's a massive board game convention. So not an obvious thing. Oh, that one.

Yeah, it's full of nerds. I went last year, it was really good fun, but I only went for a day. I remember you saying because you found the God's Guards game or the Klax game? Yes, it's the God's Guards game. Are you hunting down anything this this year? I don't have anything specific I'm hunting. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be given lists by some pals of mine to go and find things. But I'm looking forward to not being on the hunt for anything. It means I can pimple. Yeah, send me pictures of anything like super weird you see. I will do. Like board game wise, not people. That's me.

Yeah, send me pictures of anything like super weird you see. I will do. Like board game wise, not people, that's me. Unless they consent to being called super weird. Last time I was in that area was for the Disquel Convention on a broken ankle. Oh yeah, on a whim and a broken ankle to one of my mommas. I've got to stop doing things on whims and broken ankles. I genuinely, I mentioned to my sister, because I might be moving house in the next month or so, joyous times. And when I mentioned it to my sister, one of the

first things she said to me was, don't break anything between now and then. She knows me. She knows me well. I don't remember how you did it last time. It's not like you walk around in stilettos anymore. No, I was in heels last time and I caught one in a crack in the pavement. I walked all across our town and then as I got outside the restaurant we were going to eat in, I managed to trip and sprain my ankle. Have you stayed away from hills ever since? Oh yeah. Finally. Well, I mean, I live in Suffolk, so it's not really challenging to stay away from hills.

Heels. Oh, heels. I thought you said staying away from hills. It was on a hill. I was on a hill. One of Suffolk's only hills. We're very proud of it. Yeah, no, I have pretty much stayed away from pretty strappy heels unless I know I'm walking minimal distances indoors on smooth floors and carpets. That was nearly a bit of slam poetry. Indoors on smooth floors, heels and hills. Francine, we can't do slam poetry, it's a Friday. Very well. Right, do you want to make a podcast? Yes, let's make a podcast and not slam poetry.

Not slam poetry. Hello and welcome to The Truth Shall Make You Fret, a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, one at a time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan. And I'm Francine Carroll. And this is part one of our discussion of Snuff. Yeah, it is. The 39th Discworld novel.

Yeah, it is. No spoilers before we crack on. We are a spoiler-like podcast, obviously heavy spoilers for the book Snuff, but we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the series. And of course, we're saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there so you, dear listener, can come on the journey with us. JG Trundling up an annoyingly long driveway being offended by the countryside.

EMMA Countryside is offensive to be fair. JG Squelches, but wrong. EMMA Wrong squelches. JG Wrongly. Little bits of follow up. Thank you to the Discord for discussing the correct fabric to wear while jumping over bonfires wool. Wear wool. Wool is correct.

Not polyester based fabrics. Always seems to be the answer when one asks what the correct fabric is for something. Yep, just wool. All wool. Yozien are a condiment correspondent. Sounds like an interesting idea about hairs as the bunny equivalent of elves, which I very much like the concept of. Ooh. Elaborate.

They're like people, but kind of weirder. All right. Let me ruminate on that. Ruminate. We've got so many ruminants this week. Suggestions from our proposed interdimensional pub. Again, from Gozien, interdimensional pub. IHOP, the Interdimensional House of Pancakes is seen in the Good Place.

Oh, I was going to say, I feel like that's from something. Yeah. IHOP is also the Interdimensional, not International House of Pancakes. No, no, I know it's also it. All the Yetis Head and Ellen on Patreon suggested the Oxarine Dragon, which I like. That's nice. Yeah. Anyway, let's talk about Snuff. Francine, tell me about Snuff. Yeah. So as you say, it is the 39th, this world novel. It was released in October 2011.

It was also the 50th novel written by Pratchett Solo, as he was marketing it, so not including Things Like A Don't Miss. Yeah, he mentioned this in one of his fast forward appearances. That's the interview with a really cool American interviewer who's very Pratchett oriented. Yeah, so I'll link to that as always. Very good. And yeah, Snuff, the title, as Pratchett said in a July 2010 newsletter when he was talking about it for the first time, a word that has, as you probably know, at least two meanings. Upon release, it was an incredible seller right away. The UK hardback edition, which came out two days after the US edition, oddly, sold 55,000

copies in the first three days. It was the third fastest sale since e-records were kept by Nielsen. Amazing. Yeah. I'm not sure exactly what that means. I've lifted that straight from Colin Smythe's website. Thank you, Mr Smythe. It was the winner of the 2012 Bollinger Ifry Man PG Woodhouse Award and finalist for the

2012 Prometheus Award. Amazing. There is a lovely interview with Sir Terry Pratchett by Neil Gaiman following the or just before the release of SNUF, which I'll link to, which talks a little bit about the inspiration and stuff, but we're going to hit on a bunch of the topics. I'm not going to read from it. However, it's well worth the read, of course. A delight.

A delight. Yeah, so what section did we cover today, Dorana? I asked for the benefit of the listeners, not because I didn't read any, I promise. Thank you for reassuring me. So part one is going from page one to 159 in the Call You Paperback edition, ending with the line, some doors never quite understood the situation. Which is true. Narrativeum just doesn't permeate the wood. Wood is often narrative and proof. This is going to get dirty. I'm going to change the subject. I really like this book. I'm really happy we're talking about it. Yeah. Yeah, me too. It's been a very long time since I read it. It's not one of the

ones I reread recently. And that's even before we talk about the four and a half years or however long we've been doing this. I think I picked it up fairly often because I liked doing a full sort of watch arc. So in this section, Vettanari reads a treatise by Pastor Oates on goblins and their religion of Ung. We haven't agreed on how to pronounce that so we're going with it. Vimes reads paperwork and suffers from his socks he's soon to be relieved of his duty and sent off for a jolly jaunt in the countryside. Vettanari doesn't receive Vimes' badge and after awkwardly tossing a coin, the Vimes

family arrives at Rampkin Hall to the assembled ranks of staff. An obnoxiously loud countryside morning heralds a generous breakfast, and there's bountiful balls in the offing. On a walk with young Sam, Stump the hermit makes himself known, and after lunch there's a tour of the crypts. Out in the lanes on his own, Vimes stops in the pub, meets a combative Jethro and witnesses a game of Crockett on the Village Green. A chance meeting with an aged Rust gets Sam suspicious. The next day, Vimes doles out advice to Ariadne's dowryless daughters and takes his curiosity back to the pub. Jethro starts a fight for the land, Willikins pulls a crossbow, the paperwork is duly done, and a mildly victorious Vimes makes arrangements

to meet the blacksmith at midnight on Hangman's Hill in pursuit of a countryside crime. Sam reads to young Sam before entertaining dinner guests with talk of policing and goblin trouble, and at night Vimes heads for the cops. There's blood on the ground, no sign of Jethro, a ring, and a goblin core, and Jiminy's no help either. In the morning, Constable Feeny Opsholt arrives to arrest Vimes for the murder of Jethro, who appears to be absent. Vimes opts to go for a walk. Willikins pulls a crossbow, again. Sybil invites Feeny to tea, and at the local lock-up, Stinky the Goblin asks for justice. Meanwhile, Colonel Makepeace reads in not quite peace as he doesn't listen to his wife and her pals gossiping about Vimes. Makepeace suggests that the group might be

at risk, and advises them to tell vines about the goblins. Very politely put. Yes, yes. Helicopter and line cloth watch. For Helicopter, delighted to announce, there was the flying machine, of course. Her ladyship's late brother put a lot of work into the project, he never got off the ground. Flying without a broomstick was his goal, but regrettably he fell victim to the outbreak of chrysms, poor lad. Not the chrysms. There is a model of it in the nursery and it runs on rubber bands. So I feel like that's a proper helicopter.

And for loincloth I think stumps a grubby brown robe. Something about herming that suggests loincloth doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. Favorite quotes. Would you like to go first Francine? Yes. Two men and one little boy walking over a bridge that might be carrying crowds and carts and horses. The world seemed unbalanced.

No. Just very, very scene setting, I think. Yes. It's an idea of the odd scale of everything. Mine's slightly longer. I'm unsurprised. I knew exactly what you were going to choose. I don't think anyone is surprised that this is my favourite quote from the book. Allow me to settle down.

Vimes died. The sun dropped out of the sky. Giant lizards took over the world. The stars exploded and went out and all hope vanished with a gurgle into the sink trap of oblivion and gas filled the firmament and combusted, and behold, there was a new heaven, one careful owner, and a new disk, and lo and possibly verily, life crawled out of the sea, or possibly didn't because it had been made by gods, that was really up to the bystander, and lizards turned into less scaly lizards, or possibly did not, and lizards turned into birds, and worms turned into butterflies, and a species of apple turned into bananas, and possibly a kind of monkey fell out of a tree

and realised that life was better when you didn't have to spend your time hanging on to something, and in only a few million years evolved trousers and ornamental stripey hats and lastly the game of Crockett and there, magically reincarnated, was Vimes, a little dizzy, standing on the village green looking into the smiling countenance of an enthusiast. Emma P And now listeners, you finally appreciate why we refuse to learn the rules of Crockett. LW Absolutely do not explain things to us, thank

you. Emma P Unless it's the benefits of whirlwind fire jumping because that's necessary for our day-to-day lives. LW Oh yeah, I mean specifically Crockett slash Cricket, don't explain that to us. Wool over fire is perfect. Tell us everything. Characters. Yeah. Throw a sheep over a bonfire, sorry. Characters. If wool is the best thing to wear when you're jumping over a fire, then if you threw a sheep over a fire, would the sheep catch fire?

No, probably not, but I don't think it would be very happy. The sheep are never happy. Well, I'm not sure that's fair. It's hard to tell. But no, please do not throw your sheep over the fire. All right, fine. No matter how symbolic it may or may not be. Vimes. Vimes. There's a man who's never thrown a sheep. Oh, I think there was that whole episode where

everything was stampeding throughout Aunt Warpawg. I'm not going to say never thrown a sheep. Never say never. I like the sort of cheeky not quite misdirect at the beginning, you know, oh, I'm very sorry. Couldn't get a stay of execution. We've had a whip round for you. I feel like if you know vines, you know what's going on, but it's cute. It is cute. Especially the sarcastic bucket and spade. Yes. You finally get to see him as the grumpy old husband he's been working towards for several books.

Yes. There's definitely a bit put upon Yes Dear, but in a very fun way. The suspicion of the countryside is there from the off as they're driving in and they were past what some wretched poet would have had to call verdant pastures dotted with almost certainly vines considered sheep. Something so accusatory about that line. Sheep. Almost certainly sheep. He gets another moment like that when one walks past the window, does he? The sheep. And he is, as always, a copper. He has not given up his badge, not even for a fortnight.

Nope. He has at length studied what he can and cannot do as soon as he leaves his jurisdiction. Yeah, which is interesting. So we were talking about the jurisdiction stuff a bit with I shall wear midnight and what passes for law on the chalk. And yeah, so yeah, this idea here of a magistrate thing and what is the law. Yes, I think that's what I was trying to get out a bit with I Shall Wear Midnight is that there usually is a law in this kind of way. You see it a lot when you read about the witch trials and things. All very local. Local laws for

local people. And then a bit of king on top. Niamh Yeah, that's what I mean. There's no king on top and veterinary is technically only in charge of Aincmore Pork. We do have king on top once we're in Lancor and the surrounding environs because we've got the... and there's dukes and duchesses and such about. Yeah, we need to work out some kind of Venn diagram, not Venn diagram, but you know what I mean, a map with the circles of influence and the... Yeah, that'll get covered in string and drawing pins and I think there's a nice moment when

Vimes is talking to Jane, the odd sister, the odd daughter, talking about writing. And I think it's Pratchett being a bit self-referential when Fime says to her, I wonder if any authors thought about the relationship between the hunter and the hunter, the policeman and the mysterious killer, the lawman who must think like a criminal sometimes in order to do his job and maybe unpleasantly surprised at how good he is at such thinking perhaps. Jess Yes, just approached the fourth wall and kicked it a bit there. Yeah, nudged it, nudged it with a sledgehammer.

Is this load bearing? Hang on, there's a loose brick in this. No, get away. Stop kicking. Shit. Don't mention the fourth wall. Fractured at his death. Fuck, that was close. Don't mention the fourth wall. Sarah. And of course, I think Sam Vimes' main point here is he's reaching the culmination of his long evolving class warfare against himself as a, I think, civil footsit at some point.

Niamh. Yeah, there's some really lovely Vimes and cybill moments. They're wonderful together. But yeah, the class warfare stuff happens. And you know, he's being so egalitarian when he's talking about things like the spinning maids and he's uncomfortable with it because he doesn't want to be considered better. And she sort of brings up, you are more important than the girls in service. As in, you know, wars might start if you get murdered. Yeah, yeah. Which don't, by the way, please. Yeah. And yeah, I like the way she sums it up as your mistaking value for worth. Yes, I'm still not sure which way round he meant.

I think there's a difference between I think everyone's worthwhile as a person, but he is more valuable. Because again, he's already put a price on things, which Benari does. Yeah, important. Yes, he puts a price on things, Betnari does. Yeah, yeah. Yes, he puts a price on everything. Yeah. And yeah, I think that his whole interaction with Jethro and the rest of them, but Jethro especially, is interesting because at heart he agrees with them. Yeah. And he tries to laugh it off because he is good at trying to calm down conflict because he has to be for his job. He's learned diplomacy.

Yes, eventually. Some resistance. And it's a very vine-shaped diplomacy. Diplomacy with a hint of brass knuckle. A touch of brass knuckle around the ears. Around the ears when necessary. No spikes. Not gentlemanly. Not gentlemanly. And he's not a cheese monger so he doesn't carry cheese wire. That reminded me for a second of 30 Rocks. Why are you wearing a tuxedo? It's after six o'clock. I'm not a farmer. I do like as well that Pregates once again brought back the regular theme of, no, we don't have weapons, we just have a lot of massive terrifying farming tools.

He really, I think, feels that in his bones. Yeah. Does Pratchett. He's a man who's spent a lot of time in the rural England looking at things leaning against walls just like, hmm. So yeah, speaking of Sybil. Yes. Because you do know I love to speak of Sybil. And Sybil and Vimes

are so sweet together. You have that moment I mentioned, value for worth, have another similar conversation and he says to her, thank you for being kind to a boy from Cockbill Street. Yes. Which I thought was very sweet. The parts about Vimes counting his blessings were lovely. Until he ran out of numbers. Exactly. Yeah. Sam Vimes, who'd never gone into a place of worship with religious forethought, worshipped

Lady Sybil. You really get, and I've said for the last few books actually, you get a bit more explicitly stated romantic affection than you have done for almost the whole series in these last few books. And it's really nice to see it here. There's such an established couple who we love. Yeah. We've certainly like in the first couple of books that we had, Vimes and Sybil, there was more of a practicality to it. There was a certain romance around the edges, but this is now, you know, a deep comfortable kind of love that Vimes is happy expressing at least to himself and

in part to others. And yeah, no it is lovely. There's also less to do with their relationship, but just I really like this little line when they've got to the hall and they're unpacking and civil impurity. Ringroast in the feminine pastime of taking clothes out of some things and putting them into other things. This had gone on for a very long time and included the ceremony of holding some things up to the light and giving a sad little sigh." Yes, I think that might be a part of womanhood that's passed me by. I mean, I think because there's clothes for young Sam and he starts growing out of them, I think it's that sort of thing. I think that's why we don't have that bit.

Yes, yes. Occasionally, I suppose I'll pick up a bit of clothing and give a sad little sigh like, I'm never ever going to wear this again. But it's not generally what I bring on holiday with me. My sad little sighs are either, I'm never going to get that coffee stain out or there's no way in hell that zips ever going all the way up again. Or I'm never going to be 17 and drunk at a festival again, I should probably just get rid of this. One last simple moment as well, just the way she calmly accepts her husband's arrest, which we've seen similar moments before when she's had to watch something like that happen. And during the arrest, inviting Feeney to tea.

Yes. Sam Vimes at some point goes on about, I don't know why I'm full naming him today, usually I say, oh, I'm being very familiar with just Sam. I'm going, Sam Vimes at some point goes on about, I don't know, I'm full naming him today. Usually I say, oh, I'm being very familiar with just Sam. I'm going, Sam Vimes said something about learning not to react until you know exactly what you're going to say. I think Sybil does that but even quicker. Sybil defaults to etiquette and it works out. Yeah. She's a little bit sarcastic as well. This sort of, do I need to sew the stripes on myself? She knows he's being arrested for a ridiculous reason and the law will pass by by tea time. Yes, please have him back by tea time. We're going to be a felon today, are you darling? All

right. Lovely. I'll pack you a sheath in your sandwich. And then Young Sam, who we just want to talk about briefly. This is Young Sam, a little bit more grown up personality, chatting away. I love Young Sam so much because he reminds me so much of my nephew. And it's just, it's all very sweet, standing in the nursery paralyzed, almost in tears, not knowing he can't play with everything at once. Oh, I love that whole bit as well, because I loved Vimes' reaction to it as well. He was saying, there was a fort big enough for a kid to stand in and defend and a variety of child-sized siege weapons to assault it, possibly with the help of box and box of lead soldiers all painted in the correct regimental

colours and in fine detail. For two pins, Vimes would have got down on hands and knees and played with them then. Sarah And the fact that he didn't, there's a lot of stuff with Vimes thinking about legacy because he didn't have that growing up. He knows of Stoneface, but I think it's described in that lack of history, that aching gulf between. Aching gulf, yeah. Yeah, yeah. As opposed to the line going back. It is interesting to think about what Sam's going to be, young Sam's going to be. And I mean, you get the

hints right in this first bit with him looking at the insect wearing a coat of petals, which is obviously the bubbles that they used to propel themselves along. And it reminds me of reading Gerald Durrell's memoirs when he was a child and they're like, well, this child's going to be a naturalist. Yes, absolutely. And Fascination with Poo. Cow poos go flop. It never said that in Where's My Cow? Young Sam's voice betrayed a certain annoyance that this important information had been withheld. Big puzzle trousers. Yeah, that's what I mean about reminding me so much of my nephew. He's a bit older than the age that young Sam would be now, but is very much the sort of shrieking laughing.

I've heard something that might be a bit rude. Big puzzle trousers. All right, who's next? Willikins. Willikins. We get a lot more Willikins in this. We do. He's sort of been a bit punchline-y in other things. Like, ah, this gentleman's gentleman

who's also very good at fighting and knows about having razor blades in his hat brim. Yes, and we're really leaning into that in this one, I think. I think Pratchett's made a decision about what Willikins is, and he's like, right, back story. JANET That's playing with the character. CLAIRE Back story, front story. JANET Side story. CLAIRE Creeping around the back with a dagger story. JANET He's got an understanding with Purity the Maid.

CLAIRE Yes. JANET Very happy for them. We don't know what it is they understand, but that's fine. CLAIRE Not necessarily. JANET I like him as this kind of foil for Vimes because Vimes is out of the city so he doesn't have Carrot to bounce off or Angora or... So instead you get Willikens as his sort of bouncing off point who will comfortably say, yes, but you do things that listen to the street, which looks after us and is with us wherever we go.

It's interesting, the first time we had any dynamic really between Vimes and Willikens was very much Willikens showing him gently how to be a gentleman. Yes. And here, most of the time, Willikens is being like, remember how to stab people or not be stabbed or offering the ones with spikes on. He's giving Vimes quite a good sort of explanation of how the aristocracy works. That's true., yes he is. There's a lot of the class stuff we like talking about, you know, these upper classes are so

truly confident they don't care what the neighbours think and all of that. And this idea of how the aristocracy works in the countryside, because obviously Willikens has had a lot more to do with it. He's worked for the Ramkin family since he was a young lad. Yes, you're quite right actually, yes. He's doing a lot of high level explanation as well as the... He's not doing it to make sure Vimes does it too and fits in the way he was in early books. He's doing it to keep reminding Vimes who Vimes is. Yes.

And he says to him, you're at your best when you remember that you are Sam Vimes. Yes, they've known each other for years now, I suppose, and very well. It's nice. When Vimes is being the gentleman and polite about beating up the blacksmith, Willikens then gets to... Take him over to one side with a very sharp dagger and say, by the way, little sidebar mate. Word to the wise. There's also, I just quite like the, you know, this is a Roman conversation at the end where Vimes says something about Willikens being a copper and he's talking

about he doesn't know his father was but would spin in his grave if he announced it. Maybe I should go to small gods and announce and become a copper and see which grave spins and Vime says, for you, I'd go to the Tanty and shout it into the pit next to the gallows. Thank you, sir. I don't have to tell you that means a lot to me. A kind of joke only one man with a deadbeat father can make to another. Yes, absolutely. And then we meet Jiminy. Jiminy Crockett. The ex-copper turned publican.

As told by the special type of crunchin. The special Rosewood crunchin, Pseudopolis City, what she was a member of. I like that his introduction comes with that sort of slightly almost talking about myself in third person monologue at Sam. I'm publicly non-friend to any man who's got money in his pockets and sometimes doesn't and sees all men after a couple of pints and sees no reason to discriminate. Sarah- Yes, he's like, here's my trope. Edith- And now we have thoroughly established this, let's maybe kick it about a bit.

Sarah- Yes, yeah. Perhaps it's not fucking about, is he? He's being really explicit about which tropes he's introducing. To start off with, he's like, right, we've not got a lot of time to invert a lot of tropes today. So. Here they are. Now let's get things. Stay away from the fourth one. And then Jethro, who obviously we've talked about, immediately starts into this, I don't care to drink with them as grinds the faces of the poor. He manages the twin distinction of being very annoying and very right. And they aren't related. Sometimes they are.

Yeah, yeah. As soon as the fight dies down and the little chat with Mulligan's been having, Vines very quickly gets into why this person is so combative. And I think there's sort of a kindred spirit of this very fiery sense of injustice. It's just that Jethro has come at it from a completely different angle. And not that different as in, it's probably an angle Vimes would have come at it from. Yeah, if things had gone a slightly different way. It's very much in his blood, isn't it? You know, Stoneface was a long time ago, maybe they're very distant cousins. Entirely possible. And to leap back to Ankh-Morpork briefly, veterinary.

Veterinary. Introspective. Yes, a lot of thinking aloud. It was very handy for our purposes. Yes, I like this bit of introspective veterinary. I think we had hints of it in Unseen Academicals as well. Yes, his world is always expanding. I think he's allowing himself, the city is comfortably running enough that he can now

allow himself a bit more curiosity. The line from when he's reading Oats's Treatise is the dreadful algebra of necessity. Yes. And him saying to Drumnod, oh we know about that don't we? Yes, absolutely. Again, the book not being totally subtle setting up that Vettinari is pleased that Vimes is in the countryside and might possibly be there for a good reason. Never been subtle about that, have we though? No, not even slightly.

Vettinari fucking about with Vimes and his badge and his setting his terrier off in various directions and Vimes somehow never quite... Knowing that he's been thoroughly manipulated or is just choosing to ignore it. Yes, yeah. Also quite like in veterinary sort of long musings on the criminal nature, especially of Ainkmore-Porkians. And he brings up smuggling as something that's kind of okay. Which is nice it sets up for the book, like the big crime is not going to be that someone's smuggling. Yeah, absolutely. The idea that a little bit of low-level crimes, good for inventiveness,

good for vigour, good for vim. Keeps them active. Let them do a little bit of crime as a treat. Not if you are rich. And also not if you are a drum knot who would like to reiterate that he buys all of his own paper clips. In fact, the quote I almost had was, if a poor man will spend a year in prison for stealing out of hunger, how high would the gallows need to be to hang the rich man who breaks the law out of greed? That's a really good line. Mrs Felicity Beedle. One of our new favourites, may I dare to say. The most famous children's writer in the world at the moment. Felicity Beadle is such a lovely

children's author name, isn't it? Wrote such hits as Melvin and the Enormous Boil, Jeffrey and the Magic Pillowcase, The Little Duckling who thought he was an elephant. Again, Pratchett and Funny Lists, always a high point. And of course, The World of Pooh, which was released as a little supplementary book to this one. I'm sure I've got a copy of it somewhere. Yeah, so we're covering that at some point. supplementary book to this one. I'm sure I've got a copy of it somewhere. Yeah. So we covering that at some point. Yes, but not this month. Okay, cool. But yeah, this is a non-fiction book.

Yes. The World of Pooh. It's very, very good. Getting the educated young about the floppiness of cowpats. Which is important. We all need to know about this sort of thing. It is. I'm frankly shocked that Young Sam has gotten to six years old without knowing about the floppiness. Speaking of Terry Pratchett being a little bit self-referential again as well, I think there's a certain joyous smugness in the Good Children's books are the ones that aren't

patronising. Meh. Anyway, about rats. No, about Miss Beadle. I like this idea. It's interesting the way she's posited at the dinner party as this sort of outsider, although she's local. Yeah. Not been local forever for a start, is she? Yeah. So she's not quite one of our lot.

Or the place. Yeah. And she's quiet during the goblin conversation and she was an outsider. A brownie, in fact. Yes. Because obviously there is such a thing as good manners, but you don't include her. She's not one of us. Yeah, yeah. Unless you're Sybil. Unless you're Sybil. Because she's better than the rest of you.

Or if you're Vyme, who much prefers it. You're not one of those and that's a compliment. Yeah, Vyme's looking at her like, oh, you're going to blow so many fucking whistles. Yeah, I think the whole Vimes beetle thing, Vimes is still at the point in this part of the book where he really thinks this is going to be even, he thinks it's going to be fun. I think it's until he goes up to Hangman's Hill and finds the blood. Yes, it still seems a little- Oh, I'm going to uncover something and annoy people. Yeah, like corruption.

Yeah. And yeah, then he finds the blood and it all gets a bit darker. I forgot to put them in the list, but quickly, Constable Feeny Upshot, Chief Constable. I think we can put a very big blanket problematic sticker and all the bung ming suck dog stuff. What's really annoying is that there is quite a good joke in there somewhere about the British tendency to serve sort of international food food with British acclumments. It's the curry with chips serving this with mashed sweet. Yeah, just made a questionable choice on the parody of the names themselves. It's like, oh, come on.

We can do better. We can be funnier than that. But yes, I like Phinney for this idea of introducing Vimes to the idea of rural nastiness and sort of like, what sort of crime do you deal with? And then Vimes listened open-mouthed as the pink well-scrubbed face talked about the gentle fragrant landscape as if it was populated by devils from the most invidious pit. Invidious, love that word. Yeah, I like that he's kind of born copper, raised copper. Vines at first is very dismissive and you know, he's still pretty explaining how things are to him. But I think doesn't realize that he's got the copper's instinct.

Yeah. Until he makes it very clear. It's in his bones. He just hasn't had the tools to turn that into something that it should be. His mum as well is great. When Vines bowed to Mistress Upshot who almost dropped her tray in ecstatic confusion. I was in my life at that moment. Oh yeah. Just realizing that the Duke's here and wishing she'd clean the inside of the roof. And when she says, oh, I'm sorry we don't have silver plates. And he said, oh, I'm sorry you don't. We'll send you some. Which of course goes into more class stuff. We can't have that as ideas above our station.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, and as well, I think, um, Vine's not quite, he's a little more detached than he used to be because that's like a kind of joke and, you know, kind of, yeah, sure, I'll send you some silver plates, but you know, it's a funny quip in the moment for him. And she's like passed out from, from class confusion. You don't suggest that's someone who's from the equivalent of Cockbill Street. Sarah Yes, yeah. Gabbard And yes, we meet the Lord Rust. Now time has passed. No longer sitting on a horse barking orders.

Sarah Sitting in a wheelchair, barking what? Gabbard What? Sarah What? Gabbard The what bit makes me laugh, especially when Vymanstarr's answering, when? Sarah When? Gabbard Where? Sarah What? When? What? What is a makes me laugh, especially when Vimes starts answering, when? When? When? What? What? When? What? What is a fun, I looked it up because Vimes was asking why they all did it. Context for maybe not English listeners, but the older, posher people ending every sentence

with what is very much a thing. Yeah, I'm not sure it really is anymore. I think in literature these days, it's very archaic. But it's a similar vocal tick, I think, and it's called a question tag. But it's like a lot of people finish sentences with right or okay. It's a way to soften a sentence almost bit inviting somebody else's input or opinion, even if you're not really what. But it's short for what do you say or what do you think basically. Oh, right. Well, that's good. What what? I'm not sure what what came from.

Something I quite like about this interaction that Vimes has with Rust and Vimes, you know, thinking about it. Somewhere in his nobly heart, Vimes still retained a slight admiration for the cantankerous old butcher with his evergreen self-esteem and absolute readiness not to change his mind about anything at all. And I talked a lot before about how fantasy stagnation is something that really bugs me when you have fantasy back in this world as it existed and not changed or progressed at all in thousands of years. It's just a little thing here. Vyme's aged too and this character has aged. This is not the same Lord Rust we met in Guards, Guards. I think he was in Guards, Guards. Correct me if I'm

wrong listeners. I'm sure you'll be happy to. He's been in all sorts. No, I think so. Because the regiments took over for a bit and something, something, right? Yeah, yeah. Whatever. Definitely in Jingo. That's when we saw him the most. Yes. And in Nightwatch. Yeah. And so how our protagonist views him has kind of softened as well. Because he's aged, he's progressed. He realises that

Rust no longer does harm. So we can find something to sort of respect about him. Yeah. And of course, we've now, Vimes has now spent time as an older adult around Rust as a young adult. Yes. Although he was very objectionable there as well. It must be difficult to see somebody as one dimensional when you've crossed several dimensions through knowing him. I quite like the detail about how, I say quite like, all the people dying around him just for the line. Perhaps he was capable of of the arrows meant for him. Just like purely ignoring fate, ignoring narrative. And they said, no.

And also we learned that his son, who is obviously active in the community, his name is Gravid. Gravid Rust. Nobody keeps animals for use, I'd say, gravid for the confused or curious. Basically means pregnant. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it tends to be more of a animal husbandry term. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I wouldn't call it gravid. It would be weird to refer to a person that way. Yeah. You don't want us to laugh. And very weird to name somebody. Name your son that, yeah. Rust has very much taken the Lanker approach to naming. Lovely name for a boy. What? Yes. And then Colonel Charles Augustus Makepeace and Mrs. Colonel.

Fine name. Fine name. Fine name. Big dragon fan. Yes. Yes. You get a couple of details that kind of single him out as not as objectionable as the rest of them straight away. I think one of them is giving him the burns and you know, he worked with dragons and he's known as civil forever and respects her opinions. He's clearly a man who knows things other than being aristocratic. G. Yes, or is one of the aristots that has come far enough through the other side of

it to be like Sybil wandering around looking after dragons and said he's happy to not interact with the day-to-day and let Letitia, his wife, chairman of the magistrates. J. Another Letitia. G. Another Letitia. A nastier one this time. J. I was about to say, one of the things about make pieces that you get, it's interesting to see how well he receives vimes straight away. But actually saying that, it's interesting to see how well everybody, even if they don't mean it, responds to vimes considering in a lot of books the aristocrats have not done so even after he married Lady Sybil. Yeah. And he's very much respected in rank, I suppose.

Yeah, especially being somewhat in the sort of rank in seat of power. But when you have this last scene in this section with Letitia and the gang in the library while Charles isn't listening. So where Vimes learned about the sort of rural nastiness from Upshot, we get sort of a deeper look as the Colonel's thinking about his wife, Cronys. And yeah, nice of him to not be homophobic, you can't always assume that with aristocracy, but he had a live personality. And frankly, if a girl wanted to go around with another girl who wore a sherdentie, trained horses and had a face like a bulldog-looking vinegar off a thistle, then it was certainly her business. Yep.

The bulldog licking vinegar off a thistle line, by the way, it's very similar to a line from the thick of it. And I'm wondering if that was somewhere rumbling in Pratchett's brain. Oh, possibly. I mean, the phrase bulldog chewing a wasp I've heard lots of times over the years from lots of people. A piece of Capaldi's delivery of a face like dot-com looking piss off a nettle though is one of my favourite sentences in the English language. Yeah, I have been thinking I want to rewatch the thick of it for various topical reasons and I might do so soon.

I support this for you. And yeah, there's another one of Russ Gravids cronies is a bit of a bad hat, honourable ambrose who had to move to the country because of something to do with a girl and Makepeace asked someone who knew a thing or two about a thing or two and found out it was quite nasty and now refuses to shake the man's hand. It's interesting to see things written from Makepeace's perspective here, especially because Pratchett's done it very well in giving him the inner monologue of an old colonial colonel. He's using quite a lot of old Indian military slang kind of things. Oh yeah, big political wallah.

Yeah, yeah. And I also really like his military metaphor. He uses when he's telling off the rest of the party. One of the first things I learned was that you never give away your position by frantic firing. Make it very obvious here that them shooting off to get Vines arrested was exactly what Vines' side than he is anyone else's. Doesn't mean he's a completely good person. No, but despite the company he keeps, it's clear that he doesn't particularly enjoy it and that's a good sign. And then we have the lovely Ariadne and her daughters. Yes, Ariadne is an interesting choice, isn't it? Isn't Ariadne the one in mythology, she

gave Theseus the ball of thread or something, didn't she, to get out of the labyrinth? I think so. Yeah. So as I say, I can't really remember the rest of this book, but is that a good title? No, I think it's just a lovely name, Brabelle type name. It's a lovely name. Yeah. Mavis Emily, who is petite, blonde and excellent cook, but rather conscious of her enormous bosom. Cool

girl. Oh, she'll never find a husband. Fleur, who does the bonnets, Amanda with the frogs. Jane, the strange one who likes writing. Hmm. Slightly heavy handed. In a fun way. Again, we don't have time for subtlety. Jane, who was working on a novel about the complexities of personal relationships with all their hopes and dreams and misunderstanding. I wonder who that could be referencing. And yes, Hermione who scandalised them all by becoming a lumberjack. But I like in this scene where Vimes calls them out on waiting for husbands and it turns out that's exactly what Sybil and Ariadne were hoping he would do. I do like that in

the call out, he doesn't just say stop it, he gives them practical advice and offers help. He talks about the nursing school, he offers property that they could use. It's that sort of thing of, okay, you don't have this way of thinking, you need to learn it. But I'm not just going to tell you to do it and then leave you alone and hope you figure something out. If I will put my money where my mouth is, here's something you can use. We can put in a word for you at the hospital. This is his whole thing, isn't it? He's like, right, I'm here now. I'm going to make the world a better place in a vines way. And this is like a little demonstration of that, but it's kind of his whole life.

Yeah, absolutely. And he does a miniature version here before he goes off and does it in a bit of a bigger way. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it reminds me of a bit I didn't say when we were talking about Vimes and Sybil actually, which was Sybil calling the radiant beacon of something or other and saying, it'll quite cheer him up because he'd never been a radiant beacon before. This kind of reminds me of that. Yeah. Get you a wife that's as good of a hype man as Lady Sybil. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe a bit less strict on the sandwiches. Maybe a bit less strict on the sandwiches. Although she's very generous about what he

eats while we're in the countryside because it's the countryside. That's the countryside. Yeah. Just have a hearty breakfast in the sandwiches. Although she's very generous about what he eats while we're in the countryside because it's the countryside. It's the countryside, yeah. Just have a hearty breakfast in the countryside. Who knows what's in the salad? Stump, I just want to briefly mention because I love the idea of casually keeping a hermit for the aesthetic. Well, it was a thing. It was a thing.

People used to hire hermits for the old follies. One of them would have been a hermitage. That's another one of these. I don't know if it's Victorian or Regency or what or both, but when? What? People used to hire hermits and they would have contracts similar to this one, I suppose, where you'd have a certain amount of provisions and some sort of a salary and you'd commit to not seeing anybody for years. And occasionally consult on philosophical conundrum. Mm.

I wish this was still a thing. I'd make a great hermit. Shove me in a cave. Well, I don't... Your food allowance. I wonder if you should do someone her hermit jobs. Let's finish talking about the characters quickly. Yes, please do. Quick one as well. I knew I'd seen something. Sorry. This is from 2017. I think no such thing as a fish probably mentioned it. Because I've heard about it more recently, but I bet they mentioned it on something I've really listened to. He's hired Belgian land's dream job as hermit for Austrian cliffside retreat. Chosen from 50 applicants for post which comes with no heating,

running water, internet or pay. Oh, you can't unionize. You can unionize with your ancestral skulls. Yeah. All right. We've got a lot to cover. So I'll just link that in the show notes. But enjoy that listeners. Thank you. And yeah, one last one. I just wanted to mention Haddock because we were talking about him a bit last week is the good job he does with the watch. And he's gone off to be acting captain in Quirm. They're doing an exchange, an exchange scheme with the, with the gendarmerie. The gendarmerie. Haddock.

I wouldn't use too much avec on your headache. And the locations obviously were at Crundles. Crundles. Better known as Rampkin Hall. Massive, expansive lands, mile of trout stream, a pub. This is, again, just in case international listeners aren't familiar, it is less common now but you do quite often get the sort of manor house and grounds comes with ownership of basically the entire surrounding village. There's a couple nearest.

CHARLEYY Yeah, there's a weird amount of feudal stuff still around Suffolk. I'm quite feudal, but you know, feudal flavoured. CHARLEYY Yeah, generally the places where this does still exist and people do it, the manor house itself is either completely falling apart and ramshackle or largely exists as a wedding venue with maybe a corner where some family actually live. Yeah, yeah. It's been taken over by the National Trust or English Heritage or whatever. National Trust. The bit that reminded me of my – I've always lived in small towns, but I've never lived out in

the country, country. But when I've spent time with friends who do, it's always a bit alarming in the same way that Simon Vimes alarmed, was that, at five o'clock in the morning, Mother Nature pressed a button and the world went mad. Every blessed bird and animal and by the sound of it, alligator, vied with all the others to make itself heard. And they said, but particularly chimes with me because most of the time I've spent in the countryside has been around friends' house after a heavy night drinking. This is back in the day, teenage years, and waking up at 5am to hear almost certainly sheep. I was looking out the window like, what the fuck is this? Also, to just sort of place us a bit in the world, Sybil mentions that people come for

the therapeutic baths at Hamon Rye just down the road. So we're definitely close to the chalk. Yes, yes. Tiffany's not far off. And for some of the research for this, by the way, this is in I think the NVR be linking with Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett. Pratchett got a few books from the real place, Hamon Wye. Heyon Wye.

Heyon Wye. Hamon Wye. Heyon Wye. I'm never ever going to know the name of that town now because Pratchett's fucked me up on it. Yeah, you're always going to call it Hamon Rye. Of course, the therapeutic baths thing was a very, especially regency era in Bath, funnily enough. I mean, it was way before that. Hay on Wye just had its little festival thing the other day, I think, by the way. The Hay Festival. You say little, it's a massive literary festival. Well, for a sandwich, yes.

For a sandwich. Oh, and of course, we've got the orchard full of apples that adhere to the what goes down must come up rules. Unfortunately, they taste awful. I was reading it, I was like, how are you going to deal with this particularly because it's quite important that we're not on a globe? And it's like, no, it's just this one. Just this one, They also float. That was Wollsthorpe, I think. That was the researcher. Wollsthorpe Bramkin. So little bits we liked. What did you like, Francine?

I liked Vimes' dislike of trees. Yeah, no, that's fine. Perhaps I like trees. His distrust of them is very funny. Do you know why it's called a countryside carrot? Because there's bloody nothing there except downed trees, which I was supposed to make a fuss about, but really they're just stiff weeds. And then Vyme's mildly disapproved of trees, but Sybil liked them and that was that. Things he didn't care to know about, Russell whooped gibbet and went inexplicably crazy in the darkness outside. Just generally, Vimes' disdain for the countryside throughout is very funny.

Sarah It is delightful, especially because it comes – obviously we get the actual suspicions of crime happening, but even before that he's just generally suspicious of the countryside. Jess Oh he is, isn't he? He's so dramatic as well. Like when he's talking about Jiminy's, I know you and you don't know that I do and from where I'm sitting I call that a result. You wait Mr. Jiminy, I know where you live. This is before anything that my note with that was, he's so dramatic. Sarah It's when he's walking down the lanes and

he realises, oh I'm being watched. I'm not watching, I'm being watched. There's all these things. It's like, what do you really think a badger is going to do? We are in the disk on the disk actually. Yeah, yeah. Fuck knows what badger is going to do. Yeah. And then of course, he realizes that that doesn't feed into things like the man with the rabbit snares or whatever. Yeah, from the start, he is determined to find the countryside untrustworthy. Despite quite liking the countryside, I respect that in him. Yeah, I do respect it. delighted me. So just a brief history of bowler hats, because then being invented for Gamekeepers

is very much a thing. So bowler hats known in the US as derbies. They were invented by they're known as bowler hats because they were invented by Thomas Bowler, who was the chief hat maker at Lock and Co in 1849. So a little history of them. Not because it looks like a bowl. Not because it looks like a bowl? Not because it looks like a bowl. Well. Officially it's called the Cook, which is spelt Coke, because hats are usually named after whoever commissioned them and they're made for.

It was first made in 1849 for nobleman Edward Cook, younger brother of the second Earl of Leicester. Now I got this information from Locke and Co's website, so they were the hattery that invented the hat. They are still going. And they are the shop from which Pratchett purchased his famous black hat. Well, in that case, we like them. So I like to think this probably came up in a chat in the shop one of those days and made its way into a book. So yes, the distinctive dome first made for Edward Cook. He ordered it as a type of hard protective hat to be close fitting with a low rounded crown to protect the heads of Cook's gamekeepers at Hocam Hall in Norfolk. When they rode the horses and carts, their

heads were shielded from the branches of any low hanging or thorny trees. Right. I was going to say, why do they need the heads protected? Branches mostly because before that they wear top hats. Trees. Yep. Trees. Yep, trees. Can't trust them. We blame this whole thing wide open. Because before this, gamekeepers would normally wear top hats, very easily knocked off by

a tree, a top hat. From Lock and Co.'s website, it's said that when the bowler hat was finished, Cook came to London on the 17th of December 1849, placed it on the floor and firmly stamped on it. When he saw that it withstood the test, he was most pleased and paid 12 shillings for it. So originally, because they were gamekeepers hats, they were very popular with the working classes and this around the 20th century, we started to get this transition where they started to be worn by city gents. So sort of bankers and clerks

and financiers, that sort of thing. Mr. Banks in Mary Poppins. I was just thinking that. Yeah, so punching through his hat was quite symbolic, wasn't it? Yes, the bow and hat and suit and briefcase and umbrella. What's his chops in making money, I thought, doesn't he? Yes, yes, he does. His hat is very important. His hat is very important.

The hats, the hats, Joanna, they're the key. They are the key. Interesting inversion of how that usually works, isn't it important. The hats, the hats to Anna, they're the key. They are the key. Interesting inversion of how that usually works, isn't it? From it going up from the working class to the... Yes, and I didn't have enough time to go down the rabbit hole. I have some theories about the emergent middle classes and needing something other than a top hat, so bringing it up from the working classes, that sort of thing. I don't think it was because there was a risk of low hanging branches in city banks. But what I found interesting, something I found

interesting that I didn't know. Yes. British rail workers, the hats were obviously very popular. So British rail workers were the ones who brought the hats over to the US and of course, these hats are very wind resistant, very sturdy. So they became a popular hat amongst the world west outlaws, far more popular than the cowboy hat. So you're Billy the Kid, that sort of thing. They were all wearing bowler hats. Tilda Well, good for them. Clara And then one last thing you reminded me of. Tilda Reminded you of? Clara Reminded me of, yes. I think I vaguely remember hearing something about the fact that

bowler hats are popular among Cornish fishermen. But you sent me the TikTok that explains why people presumed it was for similar reasons of avoiding knocks on the head and such. But actually, a long time ago, there was a merchant ship that was going to the States with a cargo of such hats, and it found it on the Lizard Coast, I believe. And so there was a shipwreck, hats all over the top, the fishermen picked them up. At the time, this area was very popular with a lot of schools of artists, so they start painting these Cornish fishermen wearing bowler hats. The tradition stuck and now Cornish fishermen wear bowler hats. Art imitating life and then life imitating art.

Absolute delight. Brings me joy. All the bit im meditating shipwreck. I will link to the Loganco sort of little blog post about the bowler hat because in 1999 to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the hats invention, they had a lot of big designers like Vivienne Westwood, Jimmy Choo, that sort of thing, design bowler hats and put their own design spins on them and it's a really fun little gallery of photos. So yeah, so I'll link to that in the show notes. But yes, so the bowler hat was indeed invented for gamekeepers. Razor blades in the rim, optional. Now, listeners, if you know anything about the bamboo armour, we'd like to hear about that.

Yes. Moving on from wool and bamboo armour. Probably wouldn't jump over a bonfire in bamboo armour. Answers on a bill hook. Posted carefully, not flung. Plenty of bubble wrap, please. And then much shorter little bit I like. Mrs Wainwright.

All couples have their code. Classically, there's one the wife uses in polite conversation to warn her husband that he's becoming exposed in the crotch department. But in the case of Vimes and Lady Sybil, any mention of Mrs. Wainwright was a code that meant if you don't stop annoying people, Sam Vimes, then there will be a certain amount of marital discord later this evening. Yes, I like the idea of the kind of couples safe word change the topic now. Sarah- Wayne Wright's a fun one to pick as well, isn't it? Because Wainwright, we were talking about a couple of books ago, and I can't recall which one now, but he was the

one who wrote all the books on fell walking. Oh, yeah. Just write as a suffix on a name is very interesting as well. Someone who wrought. Yes. Which is why playwright is spelled that way and not write as in W-R-I-T-E as in writing things down. Because that's play wrong. All right. Sorry. I'm fired. I feel like we need like a Mrs. Wainwright type code for the podcast. No, it's all right. Just tell each other to shut up. It usually works. You make a point. I'm going to shut up. Francie, what do you like? Trout.

Trout. Trout's fine. I had a lovely lunch of smoked trout today, in fact. Oh, smoked trout's very nice actually. I read it from Fine. A bit muddy without though. Anyway, I like just a payoff from a joke. Also, the whole thing about trout strings and trout poaching, that's a very interesting topic, and tickling trout as always goes back to my deep and abiding love of Danny, champion of the world. But we had a bit of trout tickling and we free men. I think that's what Wentworth is up to, isn't he? Oh, yes. Gosh, that was a while ago. Because the joke here just being Vines knew how

you could own a pub, but he wanted how you could own a trout stream because if that was your bit it would already gurgle off downstream while you were watching it, yes? That meant somebody else was now fishing in your water, the bastard. And then a little bit, obviously that's funny because Vimes doesn't understand how buying or owning bits of stream works but then later it flips that on its head when make bees rented half a mile of stream but was sadly now finding it difficult to keep running fast enough. That was a blink and you'll miss it follow-up. It was a very good follow-up joke. Gosh, haven't we been well behaved? Now we're on to talking points. It was a big set up, this, that sounds like I'm being conspiracy theorist, but I mean the first 100 pages really were setting the scene.

Yes, and it was very good scene setting. Oh, very good. Yes, very much enjoyed it. And the scene being one of rural ideal, but not, which is a wonderful genre of fiction, the rural police procedural, and it's got lots of different sub genres and tropes to draw upon here and it is nice to see Pratchett explore it. In the interview with Neil Gaiman, Neil Gaiman asks, where did the idea for Snuff originate? And Terry Pratchett says, I haven't a clue but I think I started out by considering the character of Sir Samuel Vimes as he now is. Since I find his inner monologue interesting, I decided to use the old and well-tried plot device of sending a policeman on holiday somewhere

he can relax because we all know the way this one is supposed to go. Then I realized that moving Vimes out of his city element and away from his comfort zone was going to be a sheer treat to write. And it is a treat to read. It is, absolutely. And I suppose we, this is almost, as you were saying, what's your term when you're- Oh, it's an echoing story. An echoing storyline, yes, yes. Echoing of the fifth elephant here, in that Vines is taken out of his elephant, out of his element.imes is taken out of his elephant, out of

his element. Bimes taken out of his elephant, who's like, I forgot the fucking irrelevant elephant again, the duckling, goddammit. I'm going to count that as my relevant elephant because it's very irrelevant because I said it wasn't meant to be. Anyway. Marey, Bimes is out of his element. He's out of his element. He's out of his element. We don't know where we are. But yes, practice right. It's a lovely trope. Well worn. My favourite version always came out, I think, after this book did Hot Fuzz. Hot Fuzz come out. I don't want to think about when Hot Fuzz. No, I think Hot Fuzz would have come out before this.

How does that say? Yes. Yes. It's not quite the same thing, of course, because it's not Policeman on holiday, but that... Oh, 2007, yes, gosh. Gosh, aren't we getting recent with these? But other examples of this, I love Colombo on the cruise ship, things like that. Well, speaking of cruise ships, there's a hint of witches abroad to it as well, taking granny and nanny and magra away from the center of their power and putting them somewhere where they don't have jurisdiction in the

same way. Jess Yes. And that is another very good point, because Vyme's having kind of a shaky hold on what he's allowed to and not allowed to do is very interesting here. And unlike the fifth elephant, he doesn't have this little bit of Angmul pork on which to stand. Even though he's much closer to home, he's allowed to and not allowed to do. It's very interesting here. And unlike the first elephant, he doesn't have this little bit of Angmul pork on which to stand. Even though he's much closer to home, he's not in the embassy anymore. And while this is his land, he's not a policeman. And you've kind of shifted the power in a very interesting direction because while Bynes is still very powerful, it's a different type of power and it's a

type of power he doesn't understand. And Willikens is explaining how feudal law kind of works. We had a little bit of that in I Shall Wear Midnight when we were talking about the rights of the tenants and things like that and how important it is to have the loyalty go both ways. Vines instinctually understands that, but at the same time is a little bit lost in a world where he's not allowed to barge in whatever door he wants, especially as I own this one technically. Obviously, I'd get a warrant card. I think there's something interesting in the idea of these totemic things as well. So, Vimes' badge is to Vimes as a hat is to Tiffany. And this idea of using this totem, this idea of pursuit as well, that he's out of

jurisdiction but how much could he be in hot pursuit if there's a crime to bring it back to ink more pork? Yes, exactly. Yeah. And can he do some kind of system? He's trying to find loopholes in his head, but at the same time, he's kind of thinking aloud in a considered way to freak people out when they're asking about it. And also because he's so egalitarian, there is a sense of, well, I don't want to be tyrannical with the power I do have. I'm not desperate. I'm not veterinary. Yeah. He wants his barging around to be policy, not landlord-y, unless it really suits him

to piss off the aristocracy, as has always been the case. When he pulls rank, it's always been against aristocrats. And it's always very funny. And I think it's been against Lord Rust in the past in one of the more recent Vinesy books, isn't it? Ange 1 Yes. Which sidebar when the staff refer to Sybil as Lady Sybil and he says, hang on, no, that's actually maybe look at the score sheet. Ange 1 Now hang on, I've done a little bit of research. But yeah, the whole bit actually about him speaking to the

guests around the dinner table is very reminiscent about things like Faro and them giving away a little bit too much because they just can't help themselves. Yes, as they ask about it, it's all brilliant. Also, not really procedural, but when he was talking about going to the countryside, it gave me a... When he was saying, I wish it was the about going to the countryside, when he was saying, I wish it was the seaside, Vimes complained, you get shipwrecks at the seaside, you get smugglers at the seaside, you get drownings and crime at the flaming seaside. Something interesting just made me think, Vimes is trying to do a famous vibe. Yeah, my brain immediately went to be in advice in the lashings of ginger beer.

Yeah, Vimes is having lashings of ginger beer on the cliff top and going, oh, is that a pirate? Is that a swig-lan? Where's my... What's Willikins? He can't be the dog. Kind of the dog. Kind of the dog. It reminds me very much of that kind of thing of the gentle, classic British crime book and the famous five as a kid's version of that. This lovely gentle setup where you get the introduction of each character and you can see it in a, you know, in a Midsummer Murders kind of way in your head, rather than the cinematic this time we have it on an old fashioned Cathode Ray TV screen and watching daytime TV. That's how I see it.

Yeah, I know I can very well watch that. Yeah, I could see myself watching an old tape of this I found. Yeah, yeah. For younger listeners, no, I'm not that patronising. For a more modern example as well, there's books like The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman, which I know a lot of people love. I've not read them, but they're apparently very like cozy, murder mystery type style. LW – Yes. I read a very cutting take down. I've never read them myself, but I did read

a very cutting take down as well. Which I enjoyed very, I enjoyed guiltily because I can't judge the books, I haven't read them, but I just really liked the take down of the smugness in the, I think it just reminded me of the whole, you know, bunting and- Oh yeah, the very, oh, let's all be twee and sing the Aline songs. Exactly, yes. Which is possibly very unfair. I like Richard Altman. I like him, but I enjoyed that take down of of the book so much I kind of don't want to read the book exactly. I don't agree with the takedown because it was so... What if I like it? It's the opposite of usual.

I'll see if I can find it and link to it listeners, but it was a rare thing, a well-written bad review. So I'm going to enjoy seeing how much we stick to this kind of gentle, not gentle British crime trope fest here. Because we're already in the second, as we approach the second third of the book, getting hints that this is about something much larger and darker, which I think you might like to touch on in your point. Yeah. So we have this idea of goblins introduced and that is where the sort of dark turn takes in the book. And it's an introduction of a new sapient species for us. I think goblins have been mentioned, but that's about it in previous books. Terry Pratchett does this amazing job throughout the books of bringing in species and making them feel very naturally part of the world. With goblins, there could

be this criticism of, well, why haven't these turned up anywhere in the last 38 books? But the introduction of them is handled so well that it's never in doubt that they were always there and they appear so fully realised on the page with this unique way of life, this unique belief system. The fact that we as readers haven't seen them before is explained very quickly by how they keep to the edges, consider them in generally not worth people's time. Liminal, obviously, this idea of having to live on the edge, in a very different way to how witches have to, but not totally dissimilar. The line from the Oats treatise that Vesanari is reading at the very beginning, I must say, goblins live on the edge because they have been

driven there. JANET Nice to see oats again. But that's more than just a reason for why we haven't seen them before. Even this early in the book, the fact that goblins are treated that way becomes the driving narrative force of the book. The injustice that Pratchett's so good at raging at. And we're just getting the first inklings of getting annoyed at some injustice here, but we've got vines. So what we really need is an inkling and that's a burning bonfire from anyone else. Jess You get the hint as well that it's a big deal because Vettnari is involved from the start and talking about it in the same way that you did with Nut and being a walk.

And there's sort of this idea, like I think the most goblin mention we've had before, this is in Unseen Academicals because people assume that Nut is possibly some sort of goblin. The assumption that orcs were made from goblins and obviously the big plot twist in Unseen Academicals is that orcs were made from humans. CHARLEYY When it's mentioned that they work for Harry King, it reminded me of the species I think we only saw once, which were the gnolls. GINNY Yeah, yeah. There's the fact they don't start in the watch. They haven't fit in. They've found themselves working for Harry King. You have this treatise, all this stuff about Ung, the religion, which instantly humanizes the goblins to the reader. How can we call

creatures vermin when they have such a layered important belief system, even if it's something we think is kind of weird, keeping your ear wax in a plot, in a pot. And a lot of effort. I don't know, religion requires effort. It's like Catholicism all the kneeling, standing up, sitting down. It's exactly like Catholicism. That's what I thought when I was reading it. Identical to Catholicism. You can draw a earwax, honestly. But yeah, the Watch. The Watch is where sapient species normally start out in Antmoor Pork, but it wasn't for nuts in ants and academics, and it isn't for the goblins. And this great

line, no one had suggested that Vimes should employ a goblin because they were universally known to be stinking, cannibalistic, vicious, untrustworthy bastards. And the book goes on to say, of course, everybody knew that dwarves were a chiseling bunch that would swindle you if they could and trolls were this and vampires were this. And this is the thing that Pratchett really likes to confront is everybody knows. Yes. Excuse me, what does everybody know about dwarfs? Because I don't know and I'm a dwarf.

Yes. And when you get obviously that the horrible bit where the claw is found and is wearing a ring and I think it's Vimes or Willikin goes, animals don't wear jewelry. Exactly. It really hammers at home. But while people don't know enough of goblins, although Vimes is very swiftly learning, as he said, with finding the ring especially, goblins know enough of people, or at least Stinky does, who's the only goblin we meet directly in this section, to ask the policeman for justice. And it's not Feeney they're going to because he treats them the way everyone else in the area treats goblins, but they know enough to know that Vimes is a policeman and they can ask him for justice. Yeah. The last scene in this section as well with Make Peace and the rest of the less personable

aristocrats, you really start to get hints that something bad has happened. Yeah, it's hinted at, it's implied, it's not been explicitly stated yet. We were already talking about Pratchett does a great job with set up and one of the things he does in this is set up a bunch of tropes so they're ready to be knocked over by a metaphysical bowling ball of narrative. That's possibly the worst sentence I've ever said in the podcast that wasn't dirty. Yeah, I like it, Cario. So yeah, we don't really need aristocrats to be set up as bad guys because we're generally

kind of just on Vimes' side when it comes to people like Lord Rust. But the book does get the theme rolling early on and it does get very quickly into the idea that, yeah, these are the bad guys, they're not the ones that are thinking of goblins as people and how much could they have justified by being confident that they were right? Which brings us right back around to the veterinary line, how high must the gallows be for the people who act out of greed? That's all stuff I'm going to dive into next week. All right. Good-o.

Before then, however, from today. A bit more class warfare, eh? What? Might as well. Torches, however, a bit more class warfare. What? Might as well. Torches, pitchforks. Yes. All right. Yeah. We'll pick some up before next Friday. Before we do that, however, do you have an obscure reference for me? Certainly I do. What? When? Now, you thought about your old mum and what might happen to her, says Willikin's to Jethro during his little aside with the dagger. And I reckon that is why I won't

be seeing you in Lavender because Mr. Vimes is a sensitive soul at heart. Why I won't be seeing you in Lavender, I thought, sounds like an innuendo for death. Let's double check that. Good, by the sounds of it, either mean won't be seeing you dead or won't be seeing you as an incarcerated criminal. Yes. So, Brewers, which I should have put slightly closer to me, because it is a large book. This is the Millennium version, which of course has preface by Terry Pratchett and is the most appropriate.

This is Fraser and Fable, isn't it? As long as it's got the, yeah, sorry, Brewer's Dictionary of Fraser and Fable, not one of the other many brewers we are amassing between us. Here we go. I've accidentally acquired a brewery, it's all gone wrong. Has under lay up in lavender, comma two, to put something aside carefully for future use. The expression is sometimes used facetiously of a criminal who was laid up in lavender when locked up in prison. So lavender in this context is something to preserve things. And I think it looks like the phrase comes from when you'd put lavender in with clothes to

keep moths away, things like that. Yes, so from Sir Welter Scott, the fortunes of Nigel. Lowest oft is laid up in lavender only for having shown you the way into Alsatia, is the quote there. Yes, and then I also have from a book, no sorry, from a website called Phrase Finder. It's hard to trust websites these days, but this one looks pretty good. It's not run by AI. The allusion when it comes to meaning dead people laid out in lavender seems to be pretty American. It's not often used in the UK. They think it might be alluding to the practice of stirring lavender or other strong smelling herbs near dead bodies to mask their smell. It evolved like that from laid up in lavender.

And then in the earliest citation that this author found in America was from the New York newspaper The Syracuse Herald, a book review, which I thought was a nice relevant one because it says, now here is a regular detective story. It begins with a dogfight and winds up with the whole family laid out in lavender. Wow. I like that you automatically go into the slightly transatlantic newspaper voice. I can do it if I start with an old movie quote, you wouldn't marry a man just because he's rich, but my goodness, doesn't it help? Speaking of a very particularly rich and not too weird gentlemen are offering proposals

at the moment, preferably with the side of country estate. I'm not so sure. For goodness sake, don't start off with me correcting that quote. I know I got it the wrong way around. And proposed to Joanna, answers on a little packet of lavender. Yes. Brackets only slightly threatening. Actually, if we could not do lavender and do like rosemary or something instead, I can't stomach the smell of lavender.

Not a fan of lavender. Good to know. Not a lavender fan. Okay. Rosemary is lovely. Do love the smell of rosemary. Anyway, right. Rosemary and Time, another fantastic British... Oh God, I love Rosemary and Time. I've watched them for years. I really want to watch some old detective shows now. But that gentle kind. Jack's been watching a lot of 70s detective shows that are very, you know, man.

Very man. Very man. And they're not bad. He's watching at the moment something called Randall and Hopkirk brackets deceased, which is from late sixties, early seventies. And it's about two private investigators, but one of them dies in the first episode. And from then on, he's still a main character, but he's a ghost now. Amazing. Love it. Oh, Jonathan Creek. That was one I always liked as well. Oh, that was a good one. Yeah. Love a bit of Alan Davies. Right. Okay. That is everything that we're going to say about part one of Snuff. Yes. Tune in next time for three hours of rambling about daytime TV we kind of remember.

Next week, Trisha. Oh no. Trisha. Oh no. We'll be back next week with part two of snuff. We promise not to talk about daytime television. I promise nothing. No, we'll talk about whatever we want to talk about. He even touched on fucking Antiques Roadshow. He did. He did. Oh, mate, I can't hear the Antiques Roadshow theme without feeling like I should have eaten

a Sunday roast. Oh, for me, it's feeling like I've called off school sick, then I shouldn't have done. Anyway, we will be back next week with part two of SNUF, which begins in the Corgi paperback edition on page 160 with the line, the goblin was already moving quite fast with a dot on carry one gate that was deceptively speedy. And part two ends on page 324 in the Corgi paperback edition with old mums do worry, you know. Comfortingly. British again. We're comfortable. I can only assume we're continuing at this gentle pace.

There's no way. Genocide. Yep, there's absolutely no way a detective-y Discworld book could have genocide or suddenly go a bit breakneck. I'm not sure if I'm as packed as the gloomy trousers of Uncle Vanya. Anyway, until next week, dear listener, you can join our Discord. There's a link down below. You can follow us on Instagram at the TrueShall We Make You Fret on Twitter and BlueSky at Make You Fret Pod on Facebook at the TrueShall We Make You Fret. Join our subreddit rslash ttsnyf. Email us your thoughts, queries, castles, snacks and marriage proposals at the trueshallmakeyfretpod at gmail.com. If you want to support us financially, you can propose to me or you can go to

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