The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 146: Snuff Pt. 2 (Hats, Pockets, Birds, Names)

Episode Date: June 9, 2024

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 2 of our recap of “Snuff”. Caves! Rural! Pockets!Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretDiscord: https://discord.gg/29wMyuDHGP Want to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:JoannaHagan.co.uk  Santino Fontana 'singing' a song in The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes - TikTokHow to pronounce unggue? - r/discworld Elephant Dung 101  - Global Santuary for Elephants Joanna in her authorial dressing gownMythical Creatures - Redcaps - BBC Sounds [Rhianna Pratchett’s podcast] Full article: Taxonomizing Goblins from Folklore to Fiction Taylor & Francis [paywalled]  The Princess and the Goblin - Wikipedia Goblin Market by Christina Rossetti - Poetry Foundation Goblin Feet - Tolkien Gateway  Funny Little Things - Tolkien Gateway [poem from The Hobbit]print; satirical print [Bewilderforce] - British Museum The Tragic True-Crime Life of Lady Lucan - Noble Blood Of the Dustmen of London - UC Santa Cruz   Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com 

Hello dear listeners, we start this episode by talking a little about the imminent release of Joanna's book, Friends and the Golden Age of the Sitcom. But between us recording this episode and us releasing this episode, Joanna has obtained a domain name. So I'll tell you now, if you go to joannahagan.co.uk you can, and you should, pre-order said book. But more about that in just a second. I made a coffee cake and now I'm having heart palpitations, which means it's a good coffee cake. So you've got kind of a kind of a release date for the book? Yeah, so 30th of July. My debut book, Friends in the Golden Age of the Sitcom, will be coming

out. And what's that book about, Joanna? It's about Friends and Golden Age of the sitcom. Oh, wow, kind of an obscure title for that subject then. Okay, fine. Yeah, I know, a weird choice. I was gonna call it Feathers. And then apparently that wasn't specific enough. Feathers.

Feathers. Feathers. You have to do jazz hands whenever you say it, obviously. No, it's a history of the TV show Friends, as well as sort of what happened to network television over those 10 years, how it affected what's happened to television today, the rise and fall of the amazing sitcom and why Friends has remained more popular than like a lot of them. It really has.

Yeah, people are really into Friends, which hopefully means they'll buy the book. So by the time this episode comes out, it will be available for pre-order both on Amazon and if you're in the UK, you can pre-order signed copies on my website. International, possibly available at some point, depending on how easy that turns out to be. Yeah, I have to get my head around shipping. Unfortunately, the ones available on my website, this is very much a one entity operation. So we'll figure that out. We'll get there. It'll happen. Loving the non gendered one man operation phrase there, one entity.

One being. Unfortunately, people do refer to corporations as entities. One being operation. But yeah, no, it's very exciting. It'll also be in proper bookshops and things. So go to your local Waterstones and ask for me. She'll be there in a jiffy. See, well, you know, as we mentioned last week, Mark Burrows has learned to break the laws of space and time so he can perform his show all over the country. I'm doing that

in kind of a just if you speak my name three times in a bookshop, I'll appear in a puff of smoke and talk to you about David Schwimmer. Oh, cute. Eldritch. Yeah, I love that. Kind of like an authorial cross step. Yeah, very much so. I figure if I have to live in a capitalist hellscape and like, not just write a book, but actively sell it, then I'm going to make it weird. For audio listeners, i.e. listeners. Joanna is dressed very much, I would say, like a sorceress today. So yeah, I wasn't like planning on it, but now I'm quite happy with the vibe. So links for pre-ordering my book and all that nonsense will be posted in the show notes.

Exciting. And I apologize in advance for the relentless self-promotion that's going to happen over the next few months, but fuck you, I've got a podcast, I'm going to do it. Hey Joanna, top tip from somebody who's worked in marketing, including fuck you in a sentence, imploring your audience to buy your book is controversial, not always a failure, but you know, your first book might be just running out. Okay, okay. So put that on the level of gentle suggestion.

I don't think saying fuck you is a deal breaker considering our litmuship. No. I probably wouldn't open, you know. Fuck you brackets affectionate. Oh, yeah, this is a very, this is a very caring fuck you. No, that's gonna get weird. Now it's dying to sound erotic. It's me and accidental erotica today. Do you want it to be fully aural is a sentence I said to you. This was in the context of a panel, dear listeners, a panel.

of a panel, dear listeners, a panel. Somehow it doesn't make it better. Oh, I've been, speaking of unexpected eroticism, watching clips of Brennan Lee Mulligan on TikTok. Oh, I like Brennan Lee Mulligan. Yeah, so do I now. Jesus. People have been making edits of him. You know I'm susceptible to an edit. Oh, yeah. I'm thinking about paying for that subscription, what's it called, dropout TV, something like that. Because I really like the clips they've done of like Game Changer and make some noise

whatever. I think it just looks fun, like little improv show things. I used to absolutely love these liners anyway. Oh god, I love that so much. Late night when like Dave or UK Gold or whatever just would put on hours and hours of it and my friend and I would like stay up late eating Domino's, drinking cheap vodka, we'd got someone of age to buy for us. It was a simpler time. Our poor brain cells. Absolutely gone. What I had left went into the book. It bones really well for the second book. Suzanne Collins has announced a new Hunger Games book, which I'm very excited about. Oh yeah, I haven't read the old new one yet. Ballad of Songbird and Snakes. It is a good book. Have I told you about the audio book

for that? No. Oh God, this is the funniest fucking thing, right? So the book, music is really important in the book. One of the main characters is a singer and performs a lot. And while it's mostly stuff written for book, there's a couple of songs, like it's got the origins of The Hanging Tree, which is in the Hunger Games, so that kind of has an established like tune because it was in the movies. Oh My Darling Clementine is in there as well, so again something with an established tune. They got Santino Fontana to read the audiobook.

LW – The man with the nice smile from Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. AM – Yes, he played Greg, the first Greg in Crazy Eight's girlfriend and he's like a big Broadway star like he has a gorgeous voice. Apparently they didn't pay him enough to sing though, so they have a book full of songs, they cast a Broadway singer to read the audiobook and he just says all of the songs out loud in the most deadpan monotone possible. Someone linked to a clip somewhere of him and it's just, oh my darling, oh my darling, oh my darling, Clementine. How interesting. No inflection. It's such a weird choice. I don't know what happened there.

I wonder if that was like an editorial, like if we're not going to sing all of them, we're not going to sing any of them. Yeah. And I think also if the movie was coming, they didn't want to have like conflicting compositions and stuff. Still really weird to hear. Because I was thinking that The Hobbit, for instance, the audio book that I absolutely loved as a kid, like the songs are spoken in that because that wasn't an established tune and they work well as poems anyway. But there was quite a lot of of emphasis put behind them, like 15

birds in five fir trees, their feathers were fanned by a fiery breeze, that kind of thing. Oh yeah, I mean they're like red like poems. Goblins actually. Yeah. I was amazed when the Hobbit films came out, actually I know they're not great, but the tune for Far Over the Misty Mountains Cold is almost exactly the melody I would always had in my head for it. JANET Oh, cute now. goes back in the cave. And the books obviously say a lot but she's not decided to also become

a rampant transphobe on Twitter. Yeah, I mean that's not the only alternative. No, but I think this is a nice way to do it. I'm very happy for her, she's clearly making a lot of money and doing what she likes. I think it's definitely the smartest way to do things, isn't it? Mate, if I became a bestselling young adult author you wouldn't see me for dust. I don't think you would be able to turn down the opportunity to have an audience. That is a good point. I do love to shitpost.

You'd eventually have to go and hide because you'd post a meme that would escape our circle. Yeah, no, that's the thing. I think if I developed that much of a following, I would take away my own social media and just live in a nice house and invite my circle around and only send memes to the group chat. But there would definitely be an event capitalized first. Oh, yeah, there would have to be something to drive me into. I need the controversy controversies tab on my Wikipedia page. Have you lived if your Wikipedia page doesn't have a controversy tab?

Right. Do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, let's make a podcast. Hello, and welcome to The True Show Make You Fret, a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, one a time in Quon Lodge Glouder. I'm Joanna Hagan. I'm Francine Carroll. And this is part two of our discussion of Snuff. Things are getting going now, events.

Events, events are occurring. Speaking of events, note on spoilers, we are a spoiler-like podcast, obviously heavy spoilers for the book Snuff, but we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discord series. And of course, we're saving any and all discussion of the final Discord novel, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there so you, dear listener, can come on the journey with us. Through a network of tunnels lit somehow by the darkness within you. Very chill. Finds you creepy, creepy policemen. But we love him. We do love him. Quick follow up. I was talking about Woolsthorpe Ramkin

last week. Ed Sam on Discord pointed out that he's named for Woolsthorpe Manor near Grantham, which is the birthplace of Isaac Newton and home to the famous apple tree. Isn't that a pleasing reference? I wish I'd gotten that, but well done. I want to go visit at some point. It's a National Trust place now, so you can go see it and see the famous apple tree. Isn't that a pleasing reference? I wish I'd gotten that, but well done. I want to go visit at some point. It's a national trust place now, so you can go see it and see the famous apple tree. Oh yeah. Although I think there are two or three places in England that claim to be the apple tree. Well, we can pick one and decide that's it. Oh, and Ellie on marital code words mentioned that our Poliql users dear have you eaten this code for your being a bitch right now and I'm not sure you're aware of it. And that's perfect.

I use that with myself. Yeah, same. So Francine, what happened last time on Snuff? I'll tell you what happened previously on Snuff. Vimes is strong-armed in for Fortnite away in the Rampkin country pile. He's immediately suspicious of everything from trees to birdsong to whatever was listening behind that hedge. Hmm. Anyway, while the local aristocrats mill shifterily around their manners, Vimes learns about his, starting with Crockett. He hobnobs with various levels of hob and knob, finishes a fight before it's properly begun, brackets with the discreet assistance of Willikins, and, surprise surprise,

ends up surrounded by blood on a hill at midnight. Typical rural nonsense. How dare it be so rural. Now Joanna, this is a very eventful section, so I'll settle down, shall I? Yeah it is. In this section, which begins where the last one ended, ends on page 324 in the Corby paper Mac with old mums do worry, you know, in this section. Vimes and Feeney follow Stinky to Hangman's Hill where gathered goblins repeat demands for justice. Back in the big smoke, Fred and Nobby stop by the tobacconist, who seems to

be doing rather well for himself, and a gifted cigar gets Fred swearing. In the goblin caves, Vimes is seeing, hearing and speaking in the dark. Vimes is confronted by the corpse of the murdered goblin woman, Jefferson's missing, in a cave investigations on the cards. Meanwhile, Fred becomes attached to a small file found in the crying cigar. Vimes and Feeney find Jefferson's iron workings, but not the man himself. They're scattered children's books about and Felicity Beadle appears to school Vimes on complicated goblins. Feeney fills him in on the goblins taken to the docks three years ago. Vimes arrives late to tea and takes Sibyl aside to tell her everything. Willikens has been watching from afar and suggests some time off. In the night, Vimes thinks to ask Sibyl about Lord Rust. The next morning, Vimes takes young Sam to visit Mrs.

Felicity Beadle. Young Sam gets a book, Tears of the Mushroom has made biscuits, and Vimes wants to go back to the caves. Meanwhile in A Moorport, Cullen can't let the pot go and he's taken ill and the day off work. Vimes thinks the pot might be the key and swaps a photo of young Sam for one belonging to Tears of the Mushroom before visiting Jiminy to get a handful of names and a tobacco connection. There's music in the air and Vimes insists Sibyl listen to the ethereal heart skills of Tears of the Mushroom. Sibyl gives her blessing and demands that Sam solves the crime. That's old Sam, not young Sam. A visit to Hangnail with Feeney finds Flutter ready to talk. He saw Stratford kill the Goblin Girl and after the darkness gives a witness statement, Flutter's ready to ask for King's

evidence while good citizens gather at the reveal of contraband tobacco and troll narcotics. On a visit to Harry King for Goblin context, Anger and Carrot meet Billy Slick and his grandmother, who warns them that Colin needs to get himself to a goblin cave. A visit to the tobacconist reveals the cigar came from her wonderland and We Mad Arthur uses the craw step to investigate. Vimes wakes early to magistrate interference, which he resolutely ignores. Feeny's dealing with a fracker at the lockup and reveals more goblins were grabbed in the night. Stinky becomes an honorary officer and Flutter's been singing like a nightingale.

Perfect. That was a lot of events. I'm sorry. It was a lot of events. Well done. There was an extra bit of follow up actually. Kind of the pronunciation of ungu. It sounds like Stephen Briggs in the audio book pronounce it ungu. I haven't listened to it because that's what I'm gathering. I've got a reddit right open here where there was some discussion about this three months ago and a poll ungu seems to be winning. I quite like somebody's suggestion where it's more like kind of ungu but with a like an emphasis on the good like long in French. Oh more like, um, kind of ungh, but with a, like,

an emphasis on the good, like, long in French. Oh, like, oh. Now I've said that and I've probably pronounced that wrong, but you know what I mean? Yeah. Ung. Ung you. Ung. I'm just going to avoid saying it as much as possible.

Try a different pronunciation every time. Yep. Good. Let's do that. A helicopter and loin cloth watch. For a helicopter, I'm very excited about this. We have a surreptitious albatross. Jess Yes, we do.

Ange All of the bits falling into place there. Jess It was actually an eagle. Ornithological nightmare. Ange But an excellent helicopter, as proved by We Mad Arthur and his crawl step. And for loincloth, I'm going with Tears of the Mushrooms, darling, new apron. Jess Very nice. Ange It is darling. Jess It is darling.

Ange You've got something for me, haven't you? Jess I've got a relevant elephant for you. Finally, I remembered one. And it's about elephant dung, because I thought that sounded correct for this. That does seem appropriate. So in fact, Asian elephant dung, according to globalelephants.org, it forms nice little cannonballs that are made up mostly of grass or hay. They even smell somewhat nice.

But African elephant dung is much looser. It's more like a cow pat. It goes flop. African elephant poo goes flop. Asian elephant poo is a cannibal. Young Sam would be delighted, I think. He would. However, of course, the noise an elephant makes when it poos is dung. Dung. Sorry. Had to get that in there. Quotes then, favourite quotes. Who's first? Should I go first? Yeah, you go first.

There were no roses here, no orchids either. These flowers have been plucked from hedgerows and meadows and even included the scrawny plants that managed to hang on and flower in the wilderness up above. Someone had carried them. Someone had dropped them. Someone had been in a hurry. Wimes could read it in the flowers. They'd fallen from somebody's open hand like a comet tail." Just, oh, what a moment. You can see it and everything that you can see in that moment of drop flowers and look at the direction they've gone in. It's almost, I know it's too long, but like haiku-esque in the way that it is a pretty short description that just perfectly puts across everything it wants to. Yeah.

Mine is, this is when Vimes is listening to the heart playing from Tears of the Mushroom. It was enough for him to know what he was hearing was the real highbrow stuff. You couldn't hum it and at no point did anybody shout, oops, have a banana. It was the pure quill of music, a sound that came close to making you want to fall on your knees and promise to be a better person. That's a great moment. And there's bits later, obviously, when they're talking about all the sins forgiven, it's just wonderful the way he describes the music. This bit I particularly liked because he's got a random little music hall interlude in what is a beautiful

description. You can see the librarian throwing peanuts at this point. Absolutely. And then stopping when the harp comes back. Absolutely. The all sins forgiven and it wouldn't have its work cut out in young Sam's case, I thought was a very sweet little line. Oh yeah. Speaking of young Sam, let's talk about older Sam. Okay.

Characters. Should we start with Vimes? Let's start with Vimes, who is now fully supernatural. I was like, I forgot quite how weird it gets for him. Yeah. So we had him, we got a few different flavors of Vimes, but starting with dark Vimes. Flavors of Vimes. Flavors of vimes. Flavors of vimes.

Flavors of vimes and like dark vimes, it makes it sounds like one of those posh truffle boxes. I was either thinking posh truffle box or men's eau de toilette. Yeah, nice. One of those. All right, we've got a luxury brand here. Anyway, in this case, it's just, you know, horrible for him. Yeah, so we get this continuation from Thud that the Summoning Dark has sort of stayed, or a bit of it has stayed, and is pitching in when it feels like it.

Yeah, and I mean, really quite elaborately. Yeah, giving a witness statement. This has all kinds of implications. Go on. The fact that whenever there's a murder in the night time, Sam Vimes has psychic powers to tell what happened. Yeah, it does. But I think there's a very interesting moment later on where he thinks to himself, I could go back in the dark and it could tell me exactly what happened and

where these people are. But I need to be careful about doing that. Because what truth is it telling me? Yeah, definitely. And darkness has always been my friend but I cannot let it be my master. Yes. Yeah, you don't know the motivations exactly of this. It's quite well described the entity of the summoning dark, isn't it? Yeah. They had made any number of explanations for what it was. A demon, a lost god, a curse,

a blessing, vengeance made flesh, except that it had no flesh other than the flesh it borrowed. A law run to itself, a killer, but sometimes a protector, or something that no one could find the right words for. It could travel through rock, water, air, and flesh, and for all vimes, new through time." I think it's similar. So Angua has sort of something of that ability in that she can go in and from the smell she can tell quite a lot about what happened in a room. Although obviously her sense of smell is not much of a threat to her psyche. Well, unless. Good point. So yeah, that's quite a...

That's quite a thing to have sort of living in your brain a little bit. Yeah. I suppose it is acceptable to use it out here in the countryside where everything's a bit fucky anyway, but you wouldn't want to use it as part of the proper structure of Ang Moorport law. Yeah. And he doesn't want to rely on it for fairly valid personal reasons as well. There's a great line, sometimes he met it in dreams where they nodded at one another in respect and then went their separate ways. Yes. Reminds you of the bit in Thud where he's chasing it through the, or it's chasing him through the rainy streets, both maybe.

Ange Bit of both, bit of both. Niamh Yeah, like having a nightmare on a leash. God. Ange He's debating how to explain anything to Feeney and sort of sarcastically thinks himself, well I could say, since you ask I have a deadly demon sharing my mind, which seems to be helping for reasons of its own. Niamh Yeah, big old notes of Thud when he's getting angry down in the dark as well. When Tears

of the Mushroom is saying hearts are given, Vyme's thought, it could just as well have been her head grinning on the pub wall, someone is going to burn. Yes. And that is Barry, the down dark dwarves going anywhere near Young Sam level of summoning dark rising within. There's an interesting Vyme self-awareness moment earlier when he's in the cave and he's talking to the Goblin Chief and the corpse is in front of him. The Goblin Chief is so dejected and sort of sadly accepting and it's his wife and Vimes thinks to himself, I wouldn't

be able to stand there like that if it was Sybil. No, I mean, I don't think many people could. But certainly Vimes would be a little bit murderous. But yeah, no, he's, I think we're past the Vimes of earlier books where he had to get past his own bigotry. Because he goes into this very much assuming that what people are saying is not the full story. But even so, he's surprised and learns. Definitely lots of experience and, of course, being a father, I think, has just opened his mind a little bit. Yeah. Filled it with terrifying darkness.

He's always had a bit of a tendency towards siding with the underdog as well. And there's no one more underdog than the goblins. No, that's true. Yeah. And no one's trying to make them during the watch at the moment. So I suppose that's different as well, isn't it? No. Although we do get a goblin them during the watch at the moment. So I suppose that's different as well, isn't it? No. Although we do get a goblin policeman by the end of the section. We do. But yeah, some of the other flavors of vines. We have Mentor vines, sort of trying to teach

Feeny while being really frustrated with Feeny. Yes, we've seen tiny bits of this before, haven't we, in The Fifth Elephant again. When he's going over some of this stuff with what's his job from... The local bonk guards. Exactly, the local bonk guard. Bonk, straight to removal, jail. I meant the place was bonk, but also yes. I know, I know, I know. Yes, he seems to be taking to one-on-one tutorials quite well. Yeah, he's had such an influence on like policing around the area, you know, Sam's is one of the names, like coppers who've come up in the normal. Yeah, the Sammys. I'm sure

even in Unseen Academicals, Trevor refers to it as something like the Sammys when he's talking about the police. Things like that, yeah, definitely. We get the classic, you won't call me Mr. Vimes, you ain't earned the right. Names are important. They are important. And Feeny's not earned Mr. yet. Have we got a list of things that are important? Hats, names. Pockets. Pockets. I'm on that. Let's keep track of this.

What else? We've got awkward landowner Vimes. New money Vimes. He doesn't like it. Casually to show that he meant no harm, Vimes put his arms behind his back and said in tones learned from his wife, my word, that looks like a very good pot. Tell me, how do you make a pot, sir? Prince Charlesing it. But not very well. No. But then again, you get the wonderful line about Vimes's acuity with people, if you read people. And Vimes was a ferocious reader.

That was a good line. And near the end we get Vettinari Vimes. Vettinari Vimes? Oh yes! When he's confronted with Mr. Stoner, who's a clerk to the justices. All those years being confronted by Lord Vettinari had in fact been a masterclass if you'd been known. It was time for the examination. He went back to his chair, sat back comfortably, steepled his fingers together and frowned at the clerk over the top of them for ten whole seconds. A length of time that used to unnerve him every time it happened. And so should surely work on this little tit." And then like the little detail about like not looking at Sybil in case they both laughed.

Like because Sybil's obviously sitting there knowing exactly what's happening and how fucking funny would that be? I can just imagine him corpsing like the moment Mr. Stoner walks out of the room. So Feeny. Feeny. Feeny. Learning fast. Needs to learn very fast. Career development, speed run. Yeah and having his ideas challenged. Mrs. Beadle calls him out. She sees Vimes with

him and says, oh, I don't like the company you keep. And he was, oh, this is the Vimes was a ferocious reader. He looked furious. But if you read people, it was clear the fury was spiced with shame and dread. You know, you can't entirely use the always too young to understand thing, but there's definitely a lot more leeway for him than almost anyone else who knows about it. I think it's a similar sight sliding with the underdogs thing. And you know, he got the policeman's truncheon thrust upon him by his dad, he was just about to die. It's a very tragic backstory type thing. And he gets, you know, finds always a piece of this, gets suitably angry when his old mum is threatened.

Oh, yeah, the line, if a chestnut had fallen on his head it would have exploded. It was pure righteous rage. But yeah, he gets a whole long addressing the crowd bit, which is very Vinesian. Yeah, he manages to prevent a riot effectively, which is something he's picked up pretty quickly. Yeah, I think he's a good little protégé. Yeah, he definitely is. I will watch his career with interest. We shall. I also like when he's confronted with the challenge to his ideals, he struggled in the unfamiliar and terrifying grip of philosophy, which is amongst us.

I agree. And then Miss Felicity Beadle. She's immediately a very interesting. Yes, she is. I like her line early on, she laughed, it was a very enjoyable laugh. Yeah. That says a lot about her character, doesn't it? Yes, definitely. There's also the detail as Vimes is approaching the house, that the garden is less a garden and more like a farm kind of thing and the lotman is like,

right, Pratchett likes this character, a practical woman. Yep. No protagonists are allowed to be impractical, thank you so very much. Sarah- Hints of which round the ears. Emma- Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, my mother taught me that she was a goblin. Sarah- Yeah, the whole mother who grew up in a goblin cave, the backstory. Emma- I do like, Vimes is immediate, like Vimes looked at the pleasant brown haired woman

in front of him and said politely, no. Okay, fine. Here's the proper story. I want to learn how to say politely no when somebody lies to me. Yeah, I wish I could do that. I don't think I have a Vimes-ish enough face. But yeah, I mean, gosh, and then straight into the heart wrenching awfulness. Yeah, a lot of heart wrenching awfulness. I did think actually, so she has this backstory, her mother was raised by goblins. She has an understanding and familiarity with the concept of ungyu. Obviously, she doesn't practice it, she isn't a goblin. But I wonder how much of a connection there is there to the book she writes, because she's writing things like The Joy of Earwax is the book she gives

to Sam. Yeah. I mean, if not like a direct connection, then just the lack of visceral disgust kind of thing. Yeah. The openness about it. I think she's been raised to view it in a very different way. Yeah. It is a part of a person. It is practical, it is a cultural thing that people are upset about things like earwax and poop, let's say, because that's unhygienic. But cowpats do go flop and that's necessary to know.

It is very important to know that cowpats go flop. But yeah, she is the kind of woman who has a secret tunnel into a hill and therefore I like her. Yeah, I really want to live in her house. Well, you do get less so than with Miss Tick, but you do get the apparently universal Death World schoolteacher thing of being a little bit annoying and interrupting all the time. Oh, the moment where she's like, oh, you've got him banging to rights that they're doing police speak. Yes. Yeah. And when she interrupts when Vimes and Tears of the Mushroom are having a moment.

Yes, the little flicker of annoyance on Tears of the Mushroom's face that Vimes is quite pleased to see. But yeah, more to the point, she is just willing to go completely against everything that this society definitely thinks about goblins and devote quite a lot of her time to helping, which is lovely. Yes. And she knows about vitamins. And she does know about vitamins. And yeah, then Tears of the Mushroom with her strange way of speaking

as if she were pulling words out of a rack and tidily putting them back in their places as soon as they have been said. Now that's something we've seen recently, isn't it? Was it Nut? Oh, yeah. Something like that. Anyway, it's a lovely way of describing things. It's just neatly filing words and then it is... To sort of overlap her with young Sam because I love young Sam and he has some delightful moments. Absolutely no reaction to the fact that she's a goblin, just walks up to her and begins a brief dissertation on sheep poo. And then when she tells him her name, he threw his arms around as much of her as he could and shouted, mushroom shouldn't cry.

He's so sweet and he goes and hugs her leg and she's sort of panicked. Look, people normally had when being hugged by young Sam. But then yeah, Sam, Sam Vimes, being familiar again, back to my bullshit, goes, why does the mushroom cry? And the goblin girl gasps because obviously no one asks this. Yeah. And says, it cries so that there are many more mushrooms. This is a certain thing. And so the mushroom tears the spores. Yeah.

What a lovely way to think of it. It was a beautiful way to think of it. And as Vimes thinking to ask the question? Having a conversation on her level, not on his or on the level that Miss Beadle is kind of prescribing. Yeah. And obviously I think the summoning dark helps a bit there, but obviously Sam obviously is just, I keep saying obviously, I've had quite a lot of caffeine, but Sam is very well versed in meeting people on their level. Yes, he is. I just had a little connection thought, which is tears in the mushroom being, you know, mushroom tears being spores,

making new mushrooms, and the little the tear pots, the ungee, ungee. The soul of tears. Yeah, being children. Oh, yeah, amazing. I hadn't thought about it in that. That might not even be a connection that was intended, but I like it anyway. Yes. Oh yeah, a couple of other Young Sam moments. Willikin suggesting he's got the potential to become Arch Chancellor of the University.

Yeah. Why am I not sure he feels that? I mean, maybe, but just because you could, doesn't mean you should. You spent too much time with Ridcully. Yeah, I don't want Young Sam to bechance, I don't want that for him. I reckon he'd do all right. Ridcully's fine. Yeah, I'm going to go all weird aristocrat about it and say, but then who would carry on this one good aristocratic family name?

That's a good point. Maybe he could adopt. Yeah, exactly. So priesthood's out as well. Natural philosophy though. Natural philosophy. I mean, it's a final tradition of moneyed, clever young men in the time that Ang Morport's currently parodying. Yes.

And of course he has this friend, Mr. Whistle, which he was mentioned in the first section, but I think it's very sweet how he sort of does the, well, I'll let Mr. Whistle do the being scared and it won't bother me. And then when Fiams is asking if he's all right in the cave, in the dark, a small voice said, I told Mr. Whistle not to worry dad, because he's a bit silly. Yeah. That bit like almost made me lip wobble. There's something about a small voice saying it that I thought was very sweet.

It's very, very cute. Who else do we have? We have Sybil. We have Sybil, of course we have Sybil. Top form Sybil. Top form Sybil. We have one of my favourite Sam and Sybil moments here and it's not relevant to the plot at all, but... No, please. ... time's in the bath and... Oh, yeah.

... and floated in the warm, steamy atmosphere and was only just aware of the swish of clothing hitting the floor. Lady Sybill slid in beside him. The water rose and so, in accordance with the physics of this business, did the spirits of Sam vines." That's the closest we've gotten to a tasteful cup to black since Anger and Carrot first did the deed. Very much so. Not a lot of direct shagging on the Discworld. I was trying to skirt around it there. We've got a guild of seamstresses, there's plenty of shagging on the Discworld, it's

just not talked about very often. Yes, not between, you know, major characters usually. Yeah. I just think that's a lovely, it's a lovely fade to black moment, it's a lovely couple moment. But yeah, Sybil getting angry and basically giving Vimes her blessing to go and sort this out. Sam, I'd be very grateful if you could see your way clear to perhaps taking Willikans with you to wherever it is that these scroundrels poison the world with their existence and bring them to justice if you would be so good. She's shaking with rage. She's furious with rage.

She's having to apologize and go back a bit because she's had a go at him for chasing crime rather than having a nice family holiday and now she's found had a go at him though. Oh yeah, she's sort of tutted in a wifely way. Tucked up Sam Vimes, wandering around bloody hills at midnight again. What are you like? She didn't have a cheese wire on you. There's a line actually a little later down the page after the if you would be so good, because Vimes asks her about this whole jurisdiction issue and she says the jurisdiction of a good man extends to the end of the world, which is one of those great lines, perfect in theory. We really support Vimes and everything he's doing, but also let's be careful about saying that to a policeman.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm getting thoroughly confused about what's what with the jurisdictions here, but I assume that's because so is everybody else. Yeah, I think we're just going with it. I think that's the point. We go with it and we worry about it later. I have to say, along those lines actually, when it looked like they were going to really try and arrest and imprison Vimes, what did they think was going to happen?

Yeah. Like what's the fucking plan here, lads? Put him in the lockup and then what? Like the next step is- Vetnari's not going to mind. Yeah. put him in the lockup and then what? The next step is unfortunately... vetnari is not going to mind. Yeah. You call like Morpork and vetnari says, all right, well, let him out and then back

away. Oh, but he murdered a blacksmith. No, he didn't. Obviously. Tyrant. Tyrant. This is still, it's not my jurisdiction, but I can make it my jurisdiction very quickly. Largely benevolent Tyrant with, and I really must underline this, a scorpion pit. Okay, thank you. Please let my policeman out. I think there's also a chance of Sybil being able to pull some rampant rank here because

they do own enough of the area. Yeah, definitely. Well, if anyone's got jurisdiction, we own the lockup. Yeah, and she is, I believe, the most titled of everybody we've seen. She's a duchess. Vimes checked the score chart. And so to our Angmawport contingent, pals. Our pals. Our pals in the big city. Fred Colon. I really enjoy that we get an explanation of why him and Nobby are still in The Watch.

Oh, that was brilliant, wasn't it? We don't need it, but it's still a very funny... No, there is good reason. It's not just because they're fun for plot. Niamh Have you got the bit about luck there? Sam Yes. They know the city very well. It's better to have them pissing out than pissing in. And many a crime had been solved because of things that had fallen on them, tried to kill them, tripped one of them up, been found floating in their lunch, and in one case had tried to lay its eggs up Bobby's nose.

I like that it is voiced like that because it gives, it's another flavor of the kind of thing that happens to Leonard of Quirm. Yes. And all those other inspired people, which is just, narrativeum unfortunately has singled these people out for hijinks. Chasing them down wherever they go. Yeah. I also quite like that in that list, none of it is referencing specific Discworld books

on top of all the weird luck we've seen them have. Yeah, these are all stories we're never going to hear. I'm not sure I want to know about the eggs. No, that seems like one for Miss Beadle's books though. Yeah, very much so. Nasal parasites, a child's romp. Nasal parasites, a child's delight. And Juri Littlebottom tactfully telling Fred not to be an idiot after her and Igor have

had to watch him be a bit of a twat about goblins and the pots and things. I pretty much admire you but... I hope you'll forgive me when I tell you there are times you should shut up and get some new ideas in that big fat head rather than constantly reheating the old ones. He takes it fairly well. He does, yeah. And she's not wrong. No, she's not. Speaking of Chiri, she's a very important representative for this book. She is doing the solid Lord's work of representing the carrot thirst.

Carrot thirst contingent check. GERMES The carrot thirst contingent for the book. She shook her head trying to get out of her mind some speculation about the past. A reasonably high stool might play in a relationship. LAREEE Yeah. GERMES Hoost among us. LAREEE Hoost. GERMES Actually, I'm pointing this out for a very

good reason, which is way back in Men at Arms when we first meet Angora and Cheery, I pointed out that there was some good chemistry between the two of them. Chiri's got to think, yeah. You've got the best fucking memory for things that you get proved right on eventually. I've not even been proved right. But like something we talked about at length last episode, not a chance. No, I remember things more clearly if they're gay or potentially gay. Right, right. And you're so often right about the gay things.

Exactly. So if Chiri's got a thing for Kara and her and Angwa have good chemistry, I'm just saying why not be a throuple? Because I hate that word so much. Me too, but I do think a three-way relationship is the best answer to almost any love triangle. Notable exception being the vampire diaries, because in that the love triangle, two of them are brothers. Oh, yeah. That'd be weird.

But Chiri, Angwa, Kara, I'm just saying I ship it. Okay. It's definitely one of the least troubling desk world chips I've heard. So yeah, please. Again, the bar's on the floor for that one. That's why you need a toolstool. That's why you need a toolstool. A.E. Pessimal. A.E. Pessimal, one of our faves, back to play. I love that he's still around. He's doing his thing. He's mostly doing ferocious accounting in exchange for getting to go out and walk around with people occasionally. Got a smoking abacus. Pchow. Pchow. A click of the beads. Terrifying rattle of the abacus beads around every corner. Oh my god, can you imagine A.E.

Pessimol hanging out with Mr. Bent? Have we talked about this? Oh, now they would be besties. They would either be besties or loathe each other with a fiery passion and there would be no in between. But A.E. Pessimist also provides sort of our window and context into this idea of the soul of tears and this dreadful logic of necessity. He's like interested in disaster management. He's a good lad. Yeah. That makes sense. He would be

a lot of statisticians very into this kind of thing. Triage and disaster management. He's capable of being very... He's calm when he's talking about it, but not in that horrible, well, there's no need to get emotional about it. He understands this idea of the soul of tears of a woman having to eat her child because there's no way it could survive. He understands that that's an emotional topic. He doesn't say you're stupid for not seeing why, it's obvious straight away, but then he also is willing to say, but this is why. Yeah. And he doesn't talk about it clinically even. He says, this dreadful choice, this is awful. And yeah, it's a really nice extra layer to him, I think. He has this level of expertise

that he's read every single memoir, manual, log and message in a bottle, taken from a bottle I mean, of course. And yeah, just, oh my God, obviously that doesn't make any sense to hugely want this as a thing that maybe could be had, but I want the library of Disgr- Disgr- Disaster Memorabilia. I want that. Give me this briefly made up library now. The end of his explanation of everything he's read and why he understands all this disaster stuff as well. He says, I'm sorry. I know that I am a small weak man, but I have a master large library. A dream of dangerous places." If you don't love Aeipes more before that moment, then you've got to

love him now. Yeah, although it does add a weird little vicarious spark to it, doesn't it? But obviously that's just, you know, that's his weird thing as he tried to puff out a chest that mostly went in. Sorry. And then Billy Slick and Great Granny obviously throwing in here as well. Yay, Harry King! Love him. Oh, Harry King got a wonderful throwing somebody off the stairs moment. Is it? Oh, sorry, I thought I'd had those stairs taken out. Anyway. Oh, and he's titled now. I'm not sure he was titled last time we saw him, but he's definitely titled now. Very happy for Harry. Well deserved. Well deserved. Our city goblins.

Our city goblins. I think Billy's a really interesting character and there's a lot of talk about this idea of assimilation and Billy as he represents it. Anger's thinking about it. We all become human. Human werewolves, human dwarves, human trolls, the melting pot melts in one direction. Billy's rejecting the culture he's come from, but with that comes the rejection of the idea that he is somewhat trash and worthless because that's ingrained in the culture. So it's sort of like, yes, just making someone more human is very sad and I'll talk about that a bit more when we talk about goblins later, but also if it means he is not quite so down on himself and he

wants to strive and have a better life. Yeah, and Granny seems to have taken that in another way though, because she's, Billy Slick says, you know, Granny doesn't consider being a goblin shameful either, but she's very much hanging on to the culture. Yeah, especially the idea of ungh and the way she describes it is no religion, no ringing bells, no chorus, no hallelujah, no by your leave. And says, when God's wash hands and turn away, there is ungh who roll up the sleeves. I really like their trope and I think Pratchett's done it before of the elder who pretends for a

little bit that they can't speak the language because they can't bother at all. They want to see how people react around them when they think they can't and then just like as and when they feel like it become very fluent. Yeah. And the hardcore, she's been in more than long enough to know what she likes of the hardcore negotiation for brandy and snuff. Oh yeah. Got every tiny little bit of information to another bottle. That's expensive. Yeah. And then we met Arthur, I just want to talk about quickly because he's rejoined the watch, which he said he wasn't going to do.

No, I suppose you always think that when you're on holiday though, don't you? Yeah. I never go anywhere, I live here now. Yeah. Eventually you realize like, maybe there's only so much wrestling I can do with my brothers in this large barrow. Yeah. Retirement plan kind of thing. And I'm sure Vimes runs the kind of watch where you can do flexible arrangements, like maybe he'll spend half the year on a chalk. Can you do that if you're going off to be a devoted criminal for half the year though?

Well, Vimes sort of, he thinks about the Fiegls, like in comparison to the Goblins, they both live on the fringes of society but the Fiegls kind of joyously embrace everything. The little hint of admiration he had for the Fiegls I thought was quite sweet considering how furious he was at their existence in the last book. You can't call them underdogs exactly. And also the Fiegl knowledge that we have gained has helped him, it's making him a different sort of watchman. Especially when it comes to things like cross-stepping to her wonderland.

That sounds like a young adult book somehow. It really does. And... All right. Locations. Location, the Goblin Caves. Dark. Dark, twisty.

The hill was honeycombed with caves linked by passages, natural and occasionally by the look of it, artificial. It was a small city. There's something really fascinating about this in-depth, like, rabbit warren. Yeah. Yeah. And just bits and pieces that you never to think of, like, the cultivated fungi. Yes. The crash and the rooms for creating. But at the same time, goblins just kind of do whatever, wherever.

Yeah. It's an interesting kind of balance of, okay, if goblins have the opportunity to maybe say have a bit more space and be allowed to safely live above ground, they would probably just be organized and not necessarily just stop and do things next to a midden. But then again, I don't know because they clearly have designated areas for the things they think of as most important to have those areas. Oh yeah, that's a good point. It's another culture who they just might not care where they sleep.

That is a very good point. You know, like us as teenagers. Very much like us as teenagers. Especially when given one cushion. Possibly someone's coat. Not your coat, but someone's coat. Someone's coat. If it's someone else's coat, that's fine. Definitely woken up underneath a curtain before. I may have actually just fallen asleep leaning on a French window. Right, we've gone off topic.

Sorry, but yeah, we have the Goblin Caves, which are like properly dark, which is very interesting because every other like undergroundy place we have has been handily lit up by glialumensant worms or that handy lichen or something like that. And it's always like mentioned as a, oh, Adler could have it, here's a trope. And yeah, the absolute absence of it here. And also I like the secret passageways to the two useful humans in the town. Yes. And it says a lot about those humans that they are the two that have access to the caves.

Yeah. And there was a little hint that there's something a little more between Miss Vidal and Jethro, wasn't there? Oh yeah. She says my friend in a way that implies maybe a little bit more than friend. My friend and he's not the kind of person who just go away without telling me. Yes. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, it's a nice little, you know, I don't think you meant to dislike Jethro anyway, but it's a nice little layer of now you really, you know, you know he's a good egg.

Yeah, because Mrs. Beadle wouldn't have with a bad egg. He wouldn't have. And he's willing to work nicely with the goblins. That's something I forgot to mention, actually. So to loop back to Mrs. Beedle is her establishing is Mrs. not Ms. but she lost her husband in the Klatchian Wars. Yes. Which is specific, it gives us a fixed point in time to look back to because obviously that would have been Jingo. Yes, I was thinking that. Yeah, because I know there were actually more before that, but she was she's obviously a young widow, so it must be that one. Yeah. It's not all

that long ago. Yeah. Little bits we liked. Little bits we liked. Dame mistress slightly, it's either of a proper dame, fat and gave the impression of being made of marshmallows. Kept geese as any self-respecting dame should do. Merle Of course. Samia Later in life, Fimes had wondered if underneath the peti- endless layers of petticoats, Mistress Slightly Warbred and White spotted drawers. She had a mob cap and a laugh like rainwater going down a drain. And was often plucking a goose or peeling potatoes while

teaching as a dame should. On its own, it's just a fun stereotype thing. It's delightful. But then you add to that, she shows young Vimes the picture book with the goblin, which is a really nice link because obviously we've had a lot of that in the Tiffany Aking books and I think it is implied to be the same one. It's the same terrifying goblin. I think so. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. It's very important to the narrative. Yes. This book exists on the Discworld to traumatize children.

Yeah. And I respect it. Wonderful. Yeah. But also she's a hugely influential figure in Vines' life because she was the one who made him Blackboard Monitor. And he was, you know, he earned it, I think, by being a brave boy. He did. But just, I like the delight of let's bring in a fun little stereotype character and then let's also make them one of the most influential figures on Sam Vimes' life.

Yes, yeah. It's also quite sweet that you get the, you know, when we've just talked about young Sam being a little bit scared and passing it off to Mr Whistle and that and then you get to see young old Sam, A little bit frightened as a kid as well. It is very sweet. What did you like? I liked the snooker room. I love the snooker room. The billiard room. The billiard room.

But yeah, I just really like the description of it. Vimes also indulged in a rare cigar because well, what good is snooker room without smoke twisting among the lights and turning the air a desolate blue, the color of dead hopes and lost chances? That was nearly my quote. That was nearly my quote. I love the image, everything about it. You're suddenly in a film noir. One of those depressing scenes halfway through an old TV episode or movie,

which is in the billiard room somewhere like that. I love it. I love it. It's a gorgeous image. It's also a little chance for me to drop in the bit about the old, I don't think I actually clipped his name from the notes, the snooker player who used to do the incredible trick shots. Of course, everyone used to say that was cheating, but he used to stand there as meek as milk, just repeating the ball dropped. As meek as milk. I love that. Yeah. That was, that was nearly my helicopter actually, the spinning ball. Ball dropping.

Ah. Bouncing off lampshades and the like. That was nearly my helicopter actually, the spinning ball. Ball dropping. Bouncing off lampshades and the like. And of course, it's got a little bit more meaning in the context of the book and all of that. But mainly, I just really like the phrase as meek as milk. As meek as milk is a great line. What's next? What next is proper? Speaking of great lines, proper writers. Vimes had heard that writers spend all their day in their dressing gowns drinking champagne. Footnote, this is of course absolutely true. Can confirm. Never without a dressing gown and a glass of champagne.

Sarah- Can we assume that Sair Terry Pratchett had a similar kind of feather trimmed? Ange- Oh yeah, I assume he had the exact same Catherine Delish gown that I had. Sarah- Yeah, the rich widow look. Ange- I think an affectionate shade of blue rather than green. Sarah- Yeah, yeah, perhaps. Yeah, but ostrich feather trimmed. Very dramatic. This is not a mental image. This feels very disrespectful. I think you need to remove that mental image. I hope he enjoyed whatever sort of dressing

gown he had and had plenty of champagne whenever he wanted. Well, the thing is, I always wear a dressing gown over my normal clothes when I'm working at home. This is what I'm imagining. Yeah, in winter. Fully normally dressed with ostrich triton. In fact, I might get one for just that purpose. Jeans and a t-shirt, ostrich triton. Now I'm fabulous. It's time to work. Whereas in the winter it's like, now I'm warm, I suppose I can work.

Oh, God, I've just realized I've got to move house and that means moving the dressing gown. The feathers are going to be everywhere Francine. Do you have one of those vac seal bag? Particular clothes bag doesn't even need to be in fact I wouldn't vac seal that that's got feathers. No. You can get just like normal nice clothes. I've got a box full of them up there. Yeah I think I, I think I will have to for that because those feathers, I took it with me to

Vegas and I only wore it in the hotel room, but I wasn't going to go to Vegas and not bring my ostrich feathers from dressing gown. Listeners, I need to clarify, this is like properly, this is a proper answer on the door while it's raining to be told that my rich elderly husband has died saying gasp. It is one of those. Yeah, I think we should dig out the photo of it for the... Yeah, I think we might have to share photos. Anyway. Was that just in case you found yourself in an episode of a murder mystery while you're in Vegas? I mean, it would be very appropriate. I just seemed appropriate to wear that and drink champagne in my hotel room in Vegas.

Yeah, I get it. No, you're not. I think what you need is a travel version. Yeah, don't get me on it. With the feathers of a smaller bird. Travel plumage, if you will. Sparrow feathers. No, this is the problem. I don't like the idea of using feathers from small birds. I don't mind an ostrich dying for my gown because they're bastards, but like little sparrows. What has an ostrich ever done to you? Well, they're just, they're very aggressive, aren't they? Are they? Are you thinking of emus?

Oh, I might be actually. Or cassowaries? Yeah, I'd wear a cassowary gown in the heartbeat, but I wouldn't want to try and be the one to get the feathers off the cassowary. Who was the war? Oh, there was an emu war. and be the one to get the feathers off. Who was the war? Oh, there was an Emu war. The Emus went to war with the Australians. And won. And won.

Of course. Anyway, sorry, back to writers. Oh yeah, what? The other thing about writers is that the tangents are endless. Endless. Honestly, it's a miracle I finished a book. Endless and Honestly, it's a miracle I finished a book. Endless and feather trim. Endless feather trim transients. Damn it. Right. So as well as the drinking champagne line, there's also Mrs. Beadle delivering a very similar line to what Vines thinks about when Jane talks about being a writer. She says, how can it be? Most of the words are going to be and the, and I, and it. There's a huge number to choose from. So a lot of

the work's been done for you. And she follows it up with that was 57 books ago, it seemed to have worked. And again, I feel like there's a little nudge of the fourth wall here and Pratchett just speaking. Yeah. Once again, anyone who hasn't yet read A Slip of the Keyboard, I really do recommend it. I love reading books about writing or even little essays about writing by authors. I love. And the way Pratchett writes about it. And Zen in about writing by authors I love. And the way Pratchett writes books. And Zen and the Art of Writing.

Yes. One day everyone who listens to this will have read both of those books and then I'll be happy because I can talk about those. Are we just going to become a Zen and the Art of Writing podcast? Because I feel like that might get a bit limiting. Yeah. All right, maybe one episode one day. Yeah.

A little bonus. Yeah, no, I think we should definitely do one. Anyway, yeah. And that also leads into a conversation about the fascinating complexities of the goblin language, which I thought was very nice detail, you know, oh, there's only so many words in our language, the goblins on the other hand. Yeah. Oh, yeah, all the context clues in there. But then the jumping up, just the way it's then described as like the man jumping up and down on a very large packet of crisps in juxtaposition to this, you know, when you understand this beautiful contextual cadence

filled. Yes. And yes, important things to goblins, proper pockets. Yeah, this is an important development, I guess. Yeah, this the apron that Tears of the tears the mushrooms wearing and it has pockets and everyone's very delighted by it when she shows you the other goblin women. And she says, Yeah, I know what you're thinking. It's a start carrying things useful things without having to use your hands and step in the right direction. And I didn't go into a deep diving history of pockets is something that fascinates me. It may come up in a bonus episode.

Deep Dives on the history of pockets? I really want to do that. I know, it's just a, there's a pun in there somewhere. Oh, there definitely is. Yeah. Dive into your pocket. No, oh, I went deep pockets. I'm sorry, I made it weird again.

I'm sorry. Fucking hell. Well done. Oh no. I'm sorry. You could make a proper like, dickhead Twitter point here, couldn't you, about how, you know, that's why women's clothes don't have pockets. Yeah.

Patriarchy don't want us to progress past carrying objects in our hands. There is some element to that in the history of pockets actually. I may have already done some reading on the topic just in my life because it does fascinate me. The patriarchy has not had zero impact on the presence of pockets in women's clothing. All right. Now I'm enraged. I called myself a Twitter dickhead and now I've become it. We were always Twitter dickheads. But just this idea of improving lives with small things, pockets and more variety in the diet, especially when it comes to this idea of eating rabbit because that's a huge bugbear of mine in fantasy novels when they're traveling for ages and just kicking rabbits and eating them and it's like, okay.

You can do it for quite a long time. Yeah, but it still bugs me. Yeah, no, they should also be detailing the nuts and berries they're finding. Exactly. I always appreciate it. It is a bit, oh, do you know what, we must have talked about this before, we definitely have in fact, but I will never stop being amazed by how when you're reading a fantasy journey, somehow, like the most basic foods sound like the most amazing things in the world.

Oh yeah, there's a scene in one of the Aragon books where he's traveling and his traveling companion introduces him to the concepts of a cauldron that's basically a leather bag over a fire that you put hot stones from into the bottom to make boiling water. Oh, we had a leather cauldron in the last book, didn't we? Yes, well, we were talking about proper cauldrons, but it just reads like one of the best meals. Food in fantasy is definitely a tangent I could go down, but I won't because we're finishing the episode. Yeah, I just love the idea. That's a great article for you though. Absolutely. Top five,

you could listically even top five fantasy meals. Bread and cheese top. Yeah, bread and cheese. I'm calling it right now, bread and cheese. Yeah. In every fantasy novel just sounds like the most amazing thing you've ever eaten. Honey turns up as well in The Hobbit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the go to Bjorn's. Oh my god, I'm gonna read that chapter after this. Not to mention- That's like a craving for a food suddenly is to read that chapter. You can't talk about food and fantasy without talking about the Redwall books. Brian Jacks, that man knew how to write a feast.

Yeah, like it was a cut up acorn or something. Yeah! Yeah, I'll have a slice of that acorn, yeah. Nice. But of course, because they're all mice, It's all vegeta... It's actually where I've gotten like ideas for vegetarian buffet food and stuff. It's like, okay, well, what were the mice eating? It's like, you know, dams and falls and that sort of thing. A lot of quiches, surprising amount of quiche and redwall. I love that you've been unknowingly fed redwalls inspired dishes. That's perfect.

That's mostly the case. Moving us on, what else did you like, Francine? Oh, you know, all sorts. Sang like a nightingale. This is right, right at the end, obviously. He sang like a nightingale, didn't he just? said Feeney. Generally, we say that they sing like a canary, said Vimes. Yes, sir, but this is a rural police station, sir. And I know my birds, sir. And he sang like a nightingale, right enough. A beautiful watery cadence, sir. Second only to the trail of the robin, in my opinion, possibly occasioned by his being really, really scared, sir. I'll have to slosh the bucket in there in a minute. Practically loves birds. Birds. Birds are important. Four. What do we got? We've got hats, we've got pockets, we've got birds. What

was the other thing I said? Fuck. No idea. Names. Names. But yes, we love birds. Also, I'm going to take this opportunity because I can't work it out from Googling it. There's a bird that's been real fucking loud outside my house recently. And it goes tweet tweet tweet tweet tweet tweet, pew pew pew. Can anyone tell me what that is please? I saw someone on Twitter today saying like I really wish there was a Shazam for birds. Yeah yeah yeah. I bet there probably is but I can't be bothered with that and so I'm going to crowdsource it from our listenership. So that's once again tweet tweet tweet tweet tweet tweet, pew pew pew! Really loud.

Are you sure space invaders isn't outside your house? I think it might be a Wren or a space invader. Incredible. It would be remiss if not acknowledging that while he sang like a nightingale, he wasn't in fact in Berkeley Square. Tragically. And that's because we haven't had season three of Codomans yet. No. And now I'm crying about the end of season two again. So before I do that, Francine, talk to me about Goblins. Yeah, that'll make us happier. Well, some of it will, some of it will. So just very

coincidentally, the latest issue of Folklore magazine from the Folklore Society, which I've been plugging a lot recently, but it's just been very prominent in my reading recently, had an article about goblins and about goblins in folklore and about taxonomizing goblins in folklore and fiction. It was by Matt King and it's very good. It goes into detail about the kind of like the Darwinism involved in some of the author's writing and there's a lot of stuff we're not going to go into but it's very cool if anyone's got to hand get to it. But basically, for our purposes, it's interesting to note that the goblins were a lot more complex

in earlier folk tales than they were in the kind of fairy book of the Discworld and in our fairy books. They were a lot more ambiguous. The word the Discworld and in our fairy books. They were a lot more ambiguous. The word goblin like the word fairy could refer to all kinds of things. So you've got a goblin, you've got a hobgoblin, you've got a kobold, you've got various naughty beings. Naughty, sorry. No, by the way, you mean- That's a word that's fallen out of my common parlance, thanks to Americans. Naughty.

Naughty. It's got a different connotation, doesn't it? It does worsen the English accent. Well, actually on the Hobgoblin and Cobol thing, that was something, I think it was in a Christmas rabbit hole last year, but there's some theories about the idea of house spirits and with the overtaking of Christianity, they start trying to cast the house spirits in a negative light. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And they actually, the author here, Matt King, referenced somebody's work called Small Gods, where it talked about that. Oh, cool.

Yeah, which might have been one of your sources actually, God, I can't. This was a while ago. We have many sources on this podcast. And obviously sometimes they cross over into the downright malevolent, like redcaps, who die their hats in human blood. So Rhianna Pratchett's podcast, Mystical Creatures, obviously has an episode on redcaps, which we'll link in the show notes. But they're very, you know, they're evil, evil, but maybe not. Ooh, worth listening. Anyway, I really have had a lot of caffeine today also. I'm back on my full medications drink for the first time in a while. Amazing. Also, we just get like this when we talk about folklore.

We do. Yeah. Oh my God, there's an article about the folklore surrounding ice cream vans that I haven't read yet. Oh my God, send me like that one. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'll pass the magazine on when I'm finished.

Yeah. Oh yeah, physical magazines exist. Yeah. And that feels less weird than just sending you the PDFs that should be behind a paywall, do you know what I mean? It's the same thing. Anyway, sorry. So, Mackin then goes on to talk about how the kind of perception of goblins have been flattened almost by more modern authors such as George MacDonald in the late 1800s and then Tolkien in the 20th century. Going back a little bit first actually, Shakespeare kind of time, and Shakespeare specifically

actually, would evoke a kind of air of general spookiness and supernaturality by mentioning goblins. They can then be seen as kind of a catchall for a bunch of folkloric species and just generally a, ooh, spooky, scary things are happening. But then by the 1800s, we've got Christina Rossetti's Goblin Market. The Goblin Market, which is one of my favorite poems of all time. And patrons actually can, if you haven't already, go back and listen to Joanna read that entire thing, which she did one take and I'm still furious about that, by the way, because you've just heard me try and say several sentences in a row. And you're going to hear the edited

version, it's still not going to sound as good as Joanna reading that incredibly long poem in one take. Anyway, I'm talking really fast. I'm sorry going to be able to do it for practice. There's all the listeners who normally listen on like double speed and actually have to go back to normal speed for once. Fucking hell. I never get how people can do that. I've done it on videos. I can't do it with podcasts. I need to be able to see somebody's lips moving if I'm going to do double speed. I've tried occasionally. I think I was doing it with, I tried it a couple of times with Michael Hobbs podcast because he was talking about doing it and he sounds weird sped up.

Yeah, yeah. He speaks quite fast anyway. He speaks at about our speed, I think. Yeah. Anyway, goblins. Sorry. Yeah. So the goblin market, they are malign, obviously. We're into Victorian moralizing here. Goblins as creatures try to corrupt people, often children or youths, and they can be stopped by the upstanding moral protagonist, Christian, coded. And then MacDonald a couple of decades later, so George MacDonald wrote The Princess and the Goblin, which is an incredibly famous fairy tale, and a very odd one, nice, surreal kind of thing. And I wouldn't be surprised if parts of that and some of the illustrations and some of the editions had partly inspired practice.

And the fairy tale book and yeah, the goblin page. Yeah. McDonald does acknowledge goblins as ambiguous. So he mentions their alternative names like gnomes and kobolds. They live in nearby mines. And here we see that goblins from here, I would say, in almost every book or whatever I've seen them in do live in caves or in mines or mountains. They're planning to flood the mines in this story to take revenge for their banishment. It's a pretty, as I say, surreal tale, but

longish story short, they end up drowning. And then when we get to Tolkien, now Tolkien's early works, he stays kind of ambiguous with goblins and even he paints them in a better light than you'd see in earlier folklore. He's gone very twee in his poem called Goblin Feet, 1915. added feet of many gnomes are coming. Oh, the lights, oh, the gleams, oh, the little twinkly sounds, oh, the rustle of their noiseless little robes, oh, the echo of their feet, of their happy little feet, oh, the swinging lamps in the starlit globes. Worth noting here he hated this in later years, he hated that he wrote this. It's like a real turnaround between 1915 and like the 1930s when you get him writing about what a twat he was writing all this like twee stuff. I was like, oh, Tolkien, it's all right, you don't have to be so cross about it. Like I probably would be if I read some of my teenage poetry now. Look kindly on your past self to an extent. Especially if you then go on to write

something like The Hobbit. And by this point, Tolkien's been influenced by McDonald in the way he portrays goblins. So they feature prominently in the Hobbit, as briefly mentioned earlier with the crackly song in the fir trees and the scary, scary. Yes, and they live in the mountain. They are mountain dwelling bastards. And they later become known as orcs in Middle Earth. And after some confusion, you do kind of work out that orcs and goblins are the same thing. Unlike in Discworld. Yeah, in Unseemly University. And also unlike in Discworld, goblins and orcs on Middle Earth are corruptions of elves.

And they are in the, now we get to the blanket problematic Tolkien sticker. They are dark skinned and there are obvious racial issues here. It's very much the pale good fey and the nasty dark skinned people. It's very much like that. If they're smart at all, they're cunning, they're not intelligent, there's a difference, they're sly. I think it is very interesting how in the same way as fairies, it's just been channeled into this one bad guy, good guy. When it didn't used to be like that at all, where there were a lot of shades of grey and the Victorians, while they did so much for folkloric study, did also just do a lot of black and white moralizing. Yeah, you go in this basket, you go in this basket.

Done. Gina Marey Morals. But yeah, I mean, then we should probably talk about it like in a Discworld context. Sarah Yeah, thinking about it in the context of the book. And it's really interesting as we spend a lot of time with them. It's a heartbreaking read. This idea of a fully dejected, this completely dejected group of people. I think it's very interesting to think about how it ties back to Nutt and Unseen Academicals. Obviously, the big plot twist in Unseen Academicals is that orcs weren't made from goblins, they were made from humans. I say not the biggest plot twist, but it is definitely a plot twist there.

Yeah, definitely. It's hinted at as you get there. Yeah. But if you tie it back into Nutt, he has this desperation for worth. It's hinted at as you get there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But if you tie it back into Nut, he has this desperation for worth. He's constantly trying to prove himself, whereas the goblins, they haven't even had the chance to consider either pursuing worth or the fact that they have it already. Yeah. I mean, Nut was given that aspiration by Lady Margalotta. And it maybe wasn't the healthiest thing for him to be given that aspiration. No, I think maybe Tears of the Mushroom is having a better time of... Education.

Yeah. But yeah, Vimes is very introspective about this. Obviously, he talks about how they've been given the worst of gifts, self-knowledge, leaving them certain they were revocably walking rubbish that metaphorically they couldn't even find the energy to clean the step. And that's a reference back to a metaphor earlier in the section slider of Cockbill Street and the women who scrub. You might not have nothing but it would be clean. And this fear of falling back. Yes. Losing standards. Too poor to paint, too proud to whitewash.

Yes. Is the phrase. And the pride is not there with the goblins. And that pride isn't necessarily a good thing in the context of the woman from Cockbill Street, but- But it's something. It is something. It's something to cling onto when everything's very difficult. Yes. It's not the highest that goblins should aspire to, but it would be a rung on the ladder. And you go back to, you know, it's a triage thing again, isn't it? Of course, you're

not going to worry about cleaning your doorstep if you're struggling to find enough food to feed your child. Yes. And swaths of you are being taken away to the docks to work. And Beadle's attitude to it, she's not, you know, I've talked about that theme of assimilation earlier, what it means, and she's very clear, I'm not trying to teach them to be little goblin humans. I'm teaching them to be clever goblins. And you still got the human savior thing here, which is sometimes a bit weird to read, but this is how it fits in the plot. And it is an interesting contrast then to Billy Slick,

who... Has climbed up on his own. Yeah, has climbed up on his own. But you get that bit about the melting pot melting in one direction. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, in the context of Miss Beadle as a human savior as well, I feel like it's less even savior, the more righting a wrong that's been done. The goblins didn't get this way by themselves. They got this way because of how humans treated them. Yeah. There's a lot obviously throughout parallels to horrible round world things.

Yeah, very much so. Obviously people being dragged off to slavery. You've also got the beating the culture out of a child who's been taken out from her family. Yeah, very much so. You can feel Pratchett's rage very clearly in this one. Yeah, I think the demands for justice being so peaceful. Yeah, it's seething rage, not boiling rage. Yeah, so to loop back around to my quote, the dropped flowers, Vimes has the realization

when the chieftain says very quietly, Mr. Policeman, please do not kill us, that they were running away from him. And he has given them no reason not to run away from him. And he is now in the process of making events and this is a murder and he is seeing that justice will be done. But they have no way of knowing that. But then at the end of this section as well, you get stinky being made into a policeman and by Discworld standards, that is the mark of making it as a species. Yeah. Yeah, as you know, you see Vimes, yeah, kind of not exactly storm into the tunnels, but you know, walk in in the same way he would in Angmaw Pork. And if you think about the

parallel as when he stormed into the to the dwarfs mine in Thud. but walk in the same way he would in Angmaw Pork. And if you think about the parallel as when he stormed into the dwarfs' mine in Thud, and how you just need a completely different approach here, you need to be very confident, very forthright, and still with a little bit of diplomacy from Carrot to make sure nobody gets maced over the head. But to get anywhere with the deep down dwarves. Whereas here, he's coming in and all like that and then he's like, ah,

hang about. Established foundation of not going to murder you. лдя. His internal monologue when he is presented with the corpse of this woman, pleasant contrast, and you get his internal monologue and something inside him exulted and cried, hallelujah! Because he was a corpse and he was a copper and this was a crime. And this place was smoky and dirty and full of suspicious looking goblins and here was a crime. There is a moment where his bias takes so focused on the, there is a crime, I get to be a copper, that he goes into copper brain and with that, the goblins are suspicious looking. And it's copper brain with a side order of the summoning dark is very present in this place.

And I think there's also a side of insecurity. He's been so fish out of water in this country setting that he's overcompensating now he's back on solid ground and by that I mean presented with a crime to solve. Or someone to chase, even if he doesn't know who he's chasing yet. Yeah, he's trying to place himself back in a really familiar place. So speaking of solving crimes. Yeah, speak of it. Speak of it Joanna. The middle section of a watch book is always, a Vimes book is always really good.

Yeah. Because this is where we see things. The thorax of the book. I'm sorry, I regret that. No, you're fine. I mean, we're jumping on what I was talking about last week with the goblins and to jump on what you were talking about last week, the rural idol as an ideal crime story setting, looking at how the threads start to unravel. And this section of the book has to do a lot of heavy lifting because there's more, for every thread that

unravels another mystery gets added on. Tahery Tarable jumper. Ange Speaking as a knitter, I know this happens. And it's building to the big action packed finale is building to triumph, but it has to do a lot to get there. And obviously we always talk about how good the setup and payoff is some moments in this and the whole tobacco connection being built in. By the way, bewilder force gumption. Perfect name.

Perfect name. No, no. And his change of status is diamond pin, his expensive cologne and the first section set up smuggling as this amusing little Piccadillo. And then in this we get introduced to this idea of small crimes leading to big ones. This is another one of those bits from a Pratchett book that's so famous it lives on its own in my brain, I can't remember what it's from. It's the story of a man in Angmorpork who's dragging this dog and throws it down and-

Yeah, no stop. No, hate that. Sorry. No, it's a horrible story, but this idea of Vesanari saying, well, a man who would do that is a man who should be paid attention to. Yes. And Vime says, the man was hanged a week later, not for the dog, although for my part, I wouldn't have shed a tear if he had been. And Vesanari got away with it because he was right, where there are little crimes, large crimes are not far behind. And then this all comes together. So we have the setup of the tobacco thing, we have the setup of smuggling

as an amusing little crime. And then we have this introduction of the idea of small crimes begetting big crimes. And then we get to the barrels of tobacco at Flutter's Turkey Farm. And then we find the troll drugs, which were also set up in the first section. Yeah, but you kind of forgotten about that by then. Kind of because it was a- You're like, well, the big crime is the slave trade, the smuggling. Yeah, yeah. And obviously that is still the worst crime, but then you're like, ooh, ooh, extra crimes,

crime trifle. Now you've done trifle. We're not doing trifle again. You smile at the whole crimes and their big crimes blow your head off. So it's this amazing bit of writing in this amazing setting. We get this establishment, but then we also get to be in Vimes' crime-chasing headspace, which I have dubbed in my notes as crime brain. But we're not just in Vimes' crime-chasing headspace. We're in Vimes, and we don't always get to be from a Vimes perspective in watchbooks. Like often we spend time with Angora or with Cheery, but we're very, very much in Vimes' perspective for almost the entire book this time. Yeah. Yeah, you get, we had a little trip over to Makepeace, didn't we? Like literally

a paragraph or two. We got Makepeace and we have the visits to Anwar Walk. One with Willikens, yeah. So it's, yeah, it's little, quick little asides and back. Yeah, it's like short cutscenes. But we're not just in his crime brain. Crime brain. I hate that I've coined that. We're in his crime brain, well, he's also got an audience. He has this mentee and feeny. So we as readers are privy to what he thinks is worth sharing and what he's keeping to

himself and how much the clock ticks. So as I said, you have this moment of him coming across the corpse, then you have the moment of him actually looking at the corpse and after a while it became a puzzle, not a corpse, said finds to himself, but never soon enough and not for long enough. And you get a lot more insight because obviously in going postal and such, you get most von Litvig's perspective, but you don't get to see that much in a working. You skip over these bits because they're the reveals. Whereas you get to see the inner machinations of Fime's brain because that's very important to the scene by scene play. Very much so. And you compare that to how he reacts with Feeney, which is he struggles with it, but then he sort of tries to reassure Feeney with it. And of course that turns into the

conversation of, have you seen corpses? Yes. And I might have made some. But alongside a very, never proud of that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, this isn't a good thing. This is just a thing. Yeah. And he has these other moments. I know Jefferson is not in here.

Don't ask me how because I'd have to lie to you. Obviously, it's the summoning dark that's telling him that Jefferson's not around. But I'm going through the motions to help myself think and that's a lesson he's imparting. That's not for us. That's for Feeney. And he's, I don't like a crime being unsold. I want someone to run so I can chase them. Yeah. Terrier. Yeah, metanarist terrier. And he starts ruminating on the gamekeeper's role. You know, what could

they have done in it? Because he met them in the first bit and now he's sort of thinking, hang about, what would they do in this area? You would be perfectly placed to do this. And of course, there's also moments where he's more introspective, you know, the bad days and the good days. His determination once he decides he has jurisdiction, Jiminy asks him if he has jurisdiction and he pulls him up and says, try me. And you start getting into this bigger picture idea, the snooker analogy, which we alluded to earlier. There were a lot of red balls and they got in the way as he had to knock them down, but the ultimate target was going to be the black. And immediately after that analogy, he remembers the rusts. And this is interesting when you think about

how far Vimes has come from Guards, Guards, because he is bigger, he is more powerful, he is a duke, he is an ambassador. He can go after the Black. Yeah, he can go after the Black, the big target, the way he couldn't in Guards, Guards, because he was an underdog. He had to scramble. He got to that point. And we've seen that grow. And now there is no, it's not just, he can go after the Black now because you know, he tried to arrest, no Carrot tried to arrest the dragon in Guards, Guards, sorry. It's been a while. But he was trying to fight the corruption as early as that book. It's that now he has the confidence that of course it's the black he's going for. There is no doubt that something from above is going to stop him. Yeah. And I think through guards guards, there was this, it never stopped him, but there was this

undercurrent of no matter what I do, I'm not going to change the fucking system, am I? Yeah. Whereas now, I'm the system. I'm the system. Yes, I fucking am. Yep. What do you know? Absolute power crops, absolutely. But it's fine. Yeah, we'll let it slide.

As we've talked about many times before, we do at a certain point have to go, but it's fine. Yeah. We're buying into the cult of personality, unfortunately. Also he's a fictional character and that doesn't mean that we would justify someone being like this in real life. No. For one thing, I have never and will never approve of somebody taking witness statements from a dark cellar. No, that's fair. How's a ghost ever stood up? Anyway, yeah, bigger picture because we get to

be in Vines' head and we get the bigger introspective moments. And I found it really interesting. There's a moment in this when he's dealing with the goblins and everything and he's frustrated. There were times the world didn't need policemen because what it really did need was for someone who knew what they were really doing to shut it all down and start it all up again so that this time it could be done properly. And I noted that as just a really good line in the book and a really good idea of being so frustrated with the world that I'm the highest power there is in this situation and I can't do anything, it needs much more than that. But I happened to notice someone posting a quote from Guards Guards on the Discord subreddit. If you let your mind dwell on rooms like this, you can end up being oddly sad and full of

a strange, diffuse compassion, which would lead you to believe that it might be a good idea to wipe out the whole human race and start again with amoebas. And admittedly, that line was a very different context. It was sort of, I'm seeing Sybil's quite sad and lonely space. And she's not lonely and they're together and it's wonderful. He's always had that in him. He's had the shut it down and start again, but he's grown into, I can shut a lot more down. Yeah. And luckily he's still guarding dark.

Yes, he's still guarding dark prevails. But yeah, it is, yeah, if you kind of look at it like that, it's this sinister undertone of he better keep up with this fucking self policing watching the watchman watch it. Yeah. better keep up with this fucking self policing watching the Watchmen, what's it? Because he's dangerous, not just in a political and powerful way. He's now supernaturally dangerous as well. CHARLEYY Yeah, there's always this undertone of risk. But then he has Sibyl and he has Youngsan. And I believe they can shine through quite a lot of Summoning Dark. Oh! As well as his summoning. How sweet! Yeah, no, that was cringe.

Anyway, to round up my point, so to go back to the crime aspect of it all, we're so drawn into how well-written the crime of it all is, teasing apart the mystery, that it took until Stoner turning up at the end for me to realise we haven't revisited any of the wankers, and by the wankers I mean, you know, Letitia, Gravid. Yeah. And revisited any of them from the first section. They're under suspicion. And by under suspicion, I mean, the mystery isn't really a mystery at all. And maybe I'm slightly biased because I've just reread the whole book before doing when I used to podcast it. We're columbo-ing it. It's the how done it, not the who done it.

Exactly. Find us columbo. Oh my god, the crossover I need. Fan artists. Please someone draw us Vimes as Columbo, please and thank you. There's my ship. There we go. I finally found my unhinged ship. Vimes and Columbo. Yeah, besties. I don't care if it's a fan of Golden Tonic, I just want it. I'm sticking with my top one. That's what I want to see. Yep, no, that's fine too. So yeah, so the mystery isn't so much of a mystery at all. It's a held on it. But it's, I feel bad saying it's enjoyable when I've just talked about some of the heaviest, darkest themes in the book, but it's a really good fucking read.

Yeah. I mean, fuck, there's no point saying it's unenjoyable. I've got a shelf full of Ian Rankin books here, which get real fucking dark and they are all enjoyable. And I know there are many darker still crime books and people like those. So it's fine. We're allowed to like this because we get sad at the right places. We do get sad at the right places. To bring this around, to talk about how enjoyable the next section is going to be. Oh, a foreshadow. A little foreshadow, talking about setups and payoffs right near the end of this section.

At this point, there was a roll of thunder, not really appropriate to the last comment and therefore without occult significance. Nevertheless, it was a giant roll that trundled around the sky dropping blocks of colours of a bruise. What a moment. Rosina, have you got an obscure reference for Neil for me? I do. I've just seen what you've written down and I am delighted. Oh, good. Okay, I do have two though. Can I start with the other one then? Yes.

Because it's a bewilderful when we talk about the name. And I forgot to mention it in the names. Yeah. There we go. But I will the force I'm pretty sure is a reference to William Wilberforce was a major advocate of the abolition of the slave trade. I'm pretty sure it's a reference because I found a satirical cartoon that was captioned. See bewilder forces rapsides on peace etc. It's like an anti will captioned, see the Will the Force's Rhapsodies on peace, etc. It's like an anti Will the Force one. Ange 1 Amazing. Sarah 1 The Will the Force, yeah. So kind of ties in subject wise, not with the character exactly. But you can tell how that came out of practice

reading on this topic. Ange 1 Yeah, very much so. And your other obscure reference, Finiel. Sarah 1 Oh, yeah, right. The actual one I wrote down. Sorry. So, so, so the fantail hat that I believe Stoner Oh yeah, right, the actual one I wrote down. Sorry. So, so, so, the fantail hat that I believe Stoner is wearing, right? Yes, Stoner is wearing a fantail hat and Vines is judging him. Yeah. You'd heard of this then?

I looked it up when I was reading it because I wondered if it was just meant to be a reference to the marquee of fantailer. Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought. And then I thought I'd never really looked up Fanta-Fantaylor as a name either. And so this is, it's a Fanta-Fantaylor hat, it's called in the book. But I googled that and quickly found it was clearly meant to be a Fanta-Fantaylor hat. But actually, small tangent within a tangent. A Fanta-Fantaylor in 1800s slang was a person whose tailcoat was excessively long. Oh, a fan tailor? So that might be some little provenance there.

I went down a couple of tangents on the origins of the name of the marquee of fan tailor. Common theory is that the way it's spelled with two L's translate to something in French that's sort of equivalent to like a slang term that means like a chicken, so a coward. Oh, okay. And then the reference to a specific Marquis who killed someone and ran away to Forex and had the, you know, she had the bad, yes, that was a Lord Lucan reference. Not fun, but I'd missed, I can't remember the name of the reference. I knew it was based on a Realm World story.

Yeah, Lord Lucan. I think there's a noble blood episode on that. Yes, quite possibly. Yeah, the other the fantail hat is the point of googling I went on to before I realized that I wasn't going to squeeze this into my notes anywhere. So I'm glad you did. Yeah. But yeah, basically, it was a pretty popular hat, especially with dustman. And it's like a soestral mace, but it's got a long bit on the, again, visual medium, audio medium, but it's like a long bit that covers the neck. And obviously, I'm guessing protects the neck from things like the sun and from dust going down your coat and things

like that. Henry Mayhew wrote about it in his description of dust men from his big old description of all the poor in the 1850s. The dust men in their appearance very much resemble the wagoners of the coal merchants. They generally wear knee breeches with ankle boots or gaiters, short dirty smock frocks, smock frocks, or coarse grey jackets and fan tail hats. Yeah, that's pretty cool. I found a couple of pictures and articles because there's a surprising amount about this one hat. Yep. Except if you Google it and go on Google images, that's not it. Google is shit now. Yeah, I know. I need a book on historical clothing, actually, because that is very much missing from my book.

But I have surprisingly few I've got some history of fashion books, but not quite historical clothing books. I think, I think that's everything we're going to say about the second part of SNUF, historical clothing, goblins, fantasy food, bread and cheese. I might go eat some bread and cheese. Yeah, we're done. We'll be back next week with the final part of SNUFF. Which begins on page 324 in the Corky Paperback edition with We Mad Arthur was impressed. Oh, good-o. Can't wait to find out what he's impressed by. Until then, however, dear listener, do rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts because of algorithmic

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