The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 5: The Light Fantastic Pt.2 (No, The Oven Blew Up)

Episode Date: December 9, 2019

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan-Young and Francine Carrel, recap and discuss every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 2 of our recap of “The Light Fantastic”. Necromancy! Albatross! Harridans! Ovens! Tolkien! Sibilance! Lashings of Butter! Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail] to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Throne of the Crescent Moon by Saladin Ahmed (goodreads)The Annotated Pratchett File, v9.0 (‘the chappy whose name I’ve forgotten’ is Leo Breebaart) Have you turned it off and on again?Dreyer’s English, Benjamin Dreyer (Goodreads)On Writing Well, William Zinsser (Goodreads)The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (Wikipedia)The Personal Relationships of King James (Wikipedia)Understanding Aperture in PhotographyIntroduction to Shutter Speed in PhotographyMusic: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

Never approach a topic directly or scare it This is very much that journey bit of a fantasy novel, but they just they don't decide where they're going to the end of it It's it's chaotic wandering. Yeah, I can't well Are they not trying to get back to Angkor pork is it? They're driven by rinse wins homesickness Yeah, but they I don't think they agree as a group. That's where they're heading until the end of That's true. Yes, I think Quite near the beginning of this section yes, when decides he wants to go home Too fast happy to join in but then the companions they meet have other ideas and yes

So it's like that bit of the fun scene of all where the group forms. Yes, which a family has dug out away from Pratchett, but Sam Sykes books this he stained red starts It's really good fancy book part of a really good fantasy trilogy But it does start with a group of heroes already together With their relationships in place going to us and you sort of get the feeling that I I think I would like that. Yeah that Not always boring, but can be boring bit of a fancy novel where our unlikely hero meets a rag-tower group of fellows To go on a quest with and then they travel to a city

Yeah, I could be well up for skipping that one of the reasons I really like the Rivers of London series Ben Ronevich Yeah, is that there is unlike most magic happening in real-world books There is no period of having to convince the protagonist or any of the protagonists that magic really exists What are you seeing isn't just him going mad? No, it's like oh magic is happening fine, right? I guess I'll deal with that now because yeah, that's always my least favorite bit any Thing to do with magic is the whole. Yeah, let's get going. Come on. You're a wizard Harry I'm a what right, okay?

Can we skip to where you're at school and know you're still surprised by things? Yeah, but the Yeah, I I I realized they are on a journey But a journey a journey. Oh my god I was actually trying to think whether we could give them a metaphorical journey here because I'm sure there's some kind of plot structure You know like we were talking about your pyramid and the in the circle and things like that We're in the almond circle. We think we're in the we're in the trials and tribulations it basically aren't we? Yes, a bunch of irritating shit happens

That which to be fair pretty much sums up rinse wins life is things just keep happening. Yeah I think what it does this bit definitely kind of strengthens the bond between two flower mints wind. Yeah and I Introduces cohen. Yeah, which I do like I love a bit of cohen the barbara. I love a bit cohen the barbara Yeah, I think just fleshes out the desk world a bit more really doesn't it it does it reminds me a bit of The temple of belt shamaroth bit in color of magic. Oh that boring No, no, I don't think it's cool. It's not that dull because that bit did really drag. Mm-hmm, but I feel like this is Terry Pratchett improving as a writer from book to book where he's written here

What would might have been in the back of his brain with Bell Shamaroth and he's kind of this gets to a bit of No, frag tag heroes sitting around a fire Little bits which I do like from classic fantasy But I'm gonna avoid talking about talking too much because I got in trouble for doing that in a project group once Did I made the mistake of saying in a Terry Pratchett Facebook group that Tolkien was a little bit overrated and Don't do that. Don't do that Definitely don't do that But Dawkins a tiny bit overrated just a little bit

I mean, it depends what you mean by overrated Do you mean as it I would agree if you would say he's not like the finest writer of all time He's incredibly influential. Oh, yeah, it's the main is why is why I think it's impossible to overwrite how influential He's been on fantasy. Yeah, but he didn't want to make fiction like I mean, I love the Hobbit He just wanted to well build forever He wanted to make a massive sandbox from I don't know not even for other people to play in He wanted to make a big model and it to be a thing he made and it was there But the Hobbit was so good

The Hobbit is a wonderful wonderful book that I love deeply because I read it as a child and the Lord of the Rings Our books that series of books I force to read myself as a child and will not do again Really, huh? I read it. I think I've read it two or three times, but yeah, I mean, I read them as an adult Also, he's yes, he's super influential. Yes, large amounts of the modern fantasy canon would not exist if it wasn't for him but at the same time Other fantasy canon might exist Because so much modern fantasy is Tolkien inspired. Oh, we see what you mean. Yes. Yeah Intellectual but that's not necessarily the best thing. Yeah, and it made like there was a phase of fantasy being super

Homogenous and like yes, I mean, that's what yeah That's what these books are taking the piss out of there are elves and elves are tall and glamorous and there are dwarves and dwarves are short and Grumpy. Yeah, you can basically look at Dungeons and Dragons and it's that yeah completely that and I It's really hard to find fantasy that isn't that that's why I love Saladin armoured Throne of the Crescent moon, which is another really good fantasy novel that I made you read. No, no, that's based on amazing fantasy book that Doesn't base anything on Norse cultural Nordic culture and he looks at Arabic folklore and creates fantasy from that Interesting, and it was a is a really good book like just I highly recommend it, but also it's amazing to

Read something based on folklore. I'm not automatically familiar with well as well as gentlemen bastards as well because it is not a Heroic heroic novel and they're on Help me out. What's that? Scotland's the Lies of Locke Lamora. Oh, I still haven't read that because you told me it's not being finished yet Yeah, no, he's already there Yeah But that's another one where it's Less talk an esk and it's about confidence tricksters and gangsters. It just happens to be not on our world. I read I

Gosh, do you know what I'm probably not gonna talk about this because I will take I will mash it so badly I did I did read a magic school Kind of book once that did not fit any of the traits and I'll look it up for next month because it was very very good Yeah So there is less talk an esk expired fantasies around Trinity Canavan has lots of good stuff The magicians apprentice. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. Yeah That's one of my favorite favorite book series and did you get me to read that properly? Yeah 90% sure if one of us has read something that the other has also read one of us would have probably recommended it to the other yeah

And before we launch into this I have a discovery that I can't believe I didn't discover before Yeah, which is the annotated Pratchett files Which I mentioned briefly before we start recording and you have seen before I'm aware of them But it's full of the kind of shit that I love and have been following. Yeah, the references and the yeah However, I feel like because of that Despite finding them now. I'm not gonna look at them before We're doing our own show notes and references and things. Do you agree? Oh, yeah, very much so Okay, and we'll put a link to it in the show notes and it's fantastic and it's particularly

Special because the chap he's put them together his name. I've got them and asked for Pratchett's feedback on a lot of the stuff and got it Yeah, and and so it's well well worth having a look through but it's one of those things if I see somebody else's idea About something it's a lot harder to come up with your own idea Tolkien influencing everyone forever Follow-up follow-up follow-up I just I just really wanted to follow up as a section. So the homework I kind of set myself was seeing if Ashken had a Meaning and a reference because I just feel like every time I see something that could do it does Yeah, this time it doesn't the one I picked out really doesn't appear to unless

It's a reference to Ash comma Kent and two of those two villages in England Don't even cut unbelievably dull for a Pratchett reference. So even if it is what's pretended isn't yeah I mean, I wouldn't call Kent a village. Yeah, so as far as I can find through oh at least 20 minutes I'll do this research Well, I feel like that's all we should really be putting in. Yeah It's a shame though if it had been something that could have been our obscure reference Oh, no, I've got a different one for that. Oh, have you got an extra?

I can't wait to get to the end of this podcast. I'm sure our audience felt the same. Yeah, all right Yeah, that's a fact before we get to the end. We probably better begin it. And do you want to make a podcast then? Yes Hello and welcome to the trees shall make you frat a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan young and I'm Francine Carol and today is part two of our discussion of the Light Fantastic, which is booked to in the Discworld series. How's that? There are very few ballerinas Tragically, I'll see if we can arrange some for you next time dear

Yeah, and no Tom spoilers. Oh no Tom spoilers. Yes. Good. Do do the disclaimer darling. Yes. No Tom spoilers. This is a Spoiler heavy discussion for the book the Light Fantastic obviously But very spoiler-like for the rest of the series will try and avoid Revealing any major plot points for the rest of the books and no spoilers whatsoever for the Shepherd's crown the very last book because I know There's some people who haven't read it yet. Yes, who can come on this journey with us. Stop it, Joanna Metaphorical journeys are never okay. I know but it really is So it's just gonna keep happening Especially as in this bitch in this book we go on a journey

It's a physical journey from one place to another place on feet and occasionally horseback as journeys were meant to be done It isn't a real journey the friends we made along the way Not the journey. It's the destination. No wait the other way round Right never make fright for it Who ever made up that saying did not have a commute. That's all I'm saying Whoever made up that saying liked making fridge magnets for 40-year-old woman named Susan or Susan or Karen get better I feel really bad for anyone named Karen, you know Yeah, it has become yeah, also

I won't start on it because it is it has kind of morphed very much into a sexist Stereotype it has any woman who speaks up about anything is called a Karen. Yeah, that is true However, I will I also can't judge in any way shape or form because I have a tattoo on my leg That is very much considered a meme of something middle-aged women have as a wall decal. Yeah, we'll let you guess what that is Answers on a postcard so you will address Are you a bit tired when you wrote this summary in the show notes? Are you referring to my extra use of the word fuck? The world's gonna end so the wizards are pulling some fuckery great tattoo in is heading for a big ass star

Luggage buggers off to find two flower There is nothing you missed an end bracket here Feel like that's more of a thing Vast amounts of profanity in the show notes I think the wizards are pulling some fuckery is a completely accurate depiction of what takes place you aren't wrong that is a Good use of the word fuckery which in itself is a good word. Yeah, I love the way an echo man see Bit of necromancy and echo man say does summoning death count as necromancy. Oh

It's either not necromancy or the most necromancy thing you could do exactly because you're not because you're not Reanimating a corpse, but it is death magic quite literally in that you are summoning death Hmm, I suppose it depends what definition of that commands He won't know is it death related magic, or is it only summoning dead people? Yeah Um and Considering it's not a science that's been pinned down in any I mean I feel like using the word science to refer to necromancy is probably not entirely and getting it Character. Oh, okay. Yes. Well someone who inhabits the disc as someone who inhabits the disc

Yes, necromancy definitely a form of science I don't I'm going to use the argument that summoning death is not necromancy because the professor of necromancy is not there Yes, all right Yes, and therefore it looks it looks a lot like necromancy. I think it's a bit necromancy Necromancy, necromancy. Yeah, but then it looks a lot like summoning demons does and that's Something's definitely isn't necromancy. It's demon summoning. It's his own good thing. Yeah. Yeah. All right, cool What happened in the first part of the light fantastic? Well Joanna Previously in the light fantastic

Rince when in two flowers astral adventure was cut short when the octavo emitted a chain spell Teleporting them into a magically charged forest. Hmm Ambushed by wizards in a gingerbread cottage our intrepid pair escaped by air pin by air pinching. Oh Escaped by air pinching on witches old broomstick Ambushed by wizards I 'm sorry It's very serious

Ambushed by wizards our intrepid pair escaped by air pinching a witches old broomstick and Defenestrating themselves A plus use of the word to find a station francy Oh also All eight spells in the octavo must be spoken together on hogs what tonight or the well's going to end I think The wizards aren't keen on that so they're pulling some fuckery as you quite rightly say minus Gelder where the wax gold a weather wax minus him because he made a light snack for two flowers luggage at the end of the last section

If you recall I do Can rinse wind overcome his inability to actually pilot a broomstick can time and fill gold is elaborate boots What's going on without weird red star find out in this week's episode of the light fantastic? I mean technically a snap so the truth shall make you fret but installment of the light fantastic That was excellent and much better than the summary. I attempted to write So yeah, that's what's gone on so far. Do you want to summarize the section winner to be talking about? Yes, so just to clarify we're talking about page 69 To page 191 in the corgi paperback edition of the light fantastic

Okay, other editions may vary. I'm very sorry that we can't research it for all of them But I don't love you enough. No, but as we did last time actually should we just start with the first sentence so people can calibrate Yeah, where's the first sentence? It is. Oh, no, that's the last sentence Okay, it is Rinse wind question mark rinse wind opened his eyes not that it helped much It just meant that instead of seeing nothing but blackness. He saw nothing but whiteness, which surprisingly was worse So find that And then come back to us. Yep

Right, so what happened in this section? Well Far as the wizards go the luggage ate golder and escaped the university. He's buggered off to find two flower We find out that there is in fact Yes, this big red dot in the sky because great art herein is heading for some kind of big-ass star Good Triamon held a meeting and that made us all cringe. Oh did cringe. Oh such a cringy. We've all had those meetings Yeah, I don't like those meetings and it we find out that he's sent off a hero to find rinse wind Meanwhile me rinse wind wakes up on a flying rock with two flower and a druid cooking breaking

We discover that druids work with stone circles. We have a brief octavo interlude Not as good as an albatross interlude. No, I think albatross interludes will always be my favorite. Oh the albatross Anyway, rinse wind describes we only whisked all about a bird. You never met me Look, you don't know Rinswin finds out that the spell lodged in his mind intentionally because he's good at yeah Well, rinse winds good at surviving by running away Yes We see a classic druid

Ceremony Classic druids classic druids, right? Uh, women always get sacrificed two flower interrupts it with good intentions co in the barbarian interrupts to fuck shit up Two flower gets knocked out. So uh co and introduces rinse winds to the horse drive and we get a cheeky bit of necromancy cheeky necromancy Pop over to death's house. We reunite with the luggage. We escape death's house and the gang decide to head forank more pork And then briefly the hero sense find them captures them keeps them in a troll's mouth Everyone gets rescued and we end on an announcement for two of our heroes to wed

Oh Lovely like a little soap opera. I love it. Do you have a favorite quote from this section? Um, yeah, I do. It's actually quite a little sentimental on Oh, uh, my favorite quote, which will then need some context was Anyway, I like his eyes. He said they can see for 50 years. Oh, that's a bit. I don't even remember reading that one So context-wise it's when uh rinse winds and

two flower and cohen and bethane are riding along Leaving the necromancy place. Yes on route to troll adventure and uh Two flowers kind of waxing lyrical about cohan's adventures and telling bethane about The time they single-handedly defeated the snake warriors of the witch lord of sibilind and salt stole the sacred diamond from the giant statue of offload of the crocodile god um The two flowers fanboy two flowers fanboying and

Cohen goes he's got eyes, doesn't he? Yes, but they don't work like other peoples Take it from me. I mean, well, you know the horse peoples yet where we were last night. Yes Would you say it was a bit dark and greasy and smelled very like an ill horse? Yeah, pure description I'd say He wouldn't agree He'd say it was a magnificent barbarian tent hung with the pelts of the grand beasts hunted by the leonide warriors from the edge of civilization And smelt of the rare and curious resins plundered from the caravans as they crossed the trackless

Well, and so on. I mean it. Yeah, I did. He's mad sort of mad, but mad with lots of money Uh, and then cohen is uh listening in on two flowers telling the legend And a weird smile formed among the wrinkles of cohen's face I could tell him to shut up if you like said prince wind would he No, not really Oh letting babble said cohen his hand fell to the handle of his sword polished smooth by the grip of decades Anyway, I like his eyes. He said they can see for 50 years. Oh, that is lovely. All right Oh

No, I like that and I haven't put that much thought into that but that's a really really sweet quote. Yeah, um They could usually On rincewind ones I would probably try and find like a funny quote because I do Tortals here or anything But I must say in this section of this book The bits that made me laugh were just a little brief exchanges just funny Yeah, I mean there is some really funny like quippy little chats in this exactly but nothing that stood out to me like that

And what did you pick up? Uh, this is a bit longer. It's a paragraph. Um The death of the disc was a traditionalist who prided himself on his personal service and spent most of the time being depressed because this was not appreciated He would point out that no one feared death itself Just pain and separation and oblivion That it was quite unreasonable to take against someone just because he had empty eye sockets and a quiet pride in his work He still used a scythe. He'd point out while the deaths of other worlds are long ago invested in combine harvesters Yeah

that's uh I think we're in deaths domain still at that point Right. Yes. Sorry. So we're we're really getting the first real introduction to death then aren't we? Yeah, so we talked a bit when we were talking about the color of magic that We were really excited to see death, but the death in that book Yeah, isn't quite the death. We're excited to see the character develops Yeah, we're having to reassure first time readers that actually we really love the grim reaper and we have our reasons And we start seeing it now. I mean we see, you know death's whole house, but we that's his motivation

And also I like that thing, you know people don't fear death. They just Fear all of the things around it. I fear death Well, okay. Yes, you plan on living forever But again, do you fear death or do you fear ending in obliteration? This has got very heavy for a podcast I don't know. I feel like they're all in the same I see what pratchett's trying to say here, but I don't see that there's anything to death apart from The ending of life, which is what I'm scared of. Well, yes But I just think it's a lovely quote about the fact that there is someone who when people are dying

Takes it very seriously and treats it with the gravitas. It should be treated. Yeah, and has not industrialized it No, the the combine harvest of it actually That's a kind of that's picked up again later on in the book called reaper man Yes, I don't think I mentioned when we were talking about our favorites and I always forget but it is quietly One of my favorites for sure. Like definitely top three. It's one I'm always struck by how good it is when I reread it, but I don't Seek it out to reread very often. Yeah, and we'll get onto why when we get to that book But yeah, that's a good one to look forward to and we started about that. So yeah, that was my favorite quote of the day

Yeah, um, yeah, and it's surrounded by like the description of death's domain for the first time Which we read visit later. But just his garden is well-sized lawn with mention that was cute I thought that death does his gardening I like the thought of impotering around with the pair of gloves and a little apron Yeah, I mean if basically you stand outside of space and time you've got time you've got time to do the garden properly Yeah, and that is my excuse for why my garden looks so shite I do wish I could stand outside of space and time every now and then just to get some bits done

Yeah, just a little bit Yeah, just a little potter little potter outside of space and time darling. Yeah, that'd be lovely darling Let's let's make a plan. Let's go for a little potter outside of space and time get some drawers done get some movering Yeah, it's been washing up a bit of dusting side the lawn side the lawn dear. Dear could you side the lawn? Sorry, France in nice into become a middle-aged couple from the 1970s very middle-class We've got a bungalow and all the wrong dimension possibly that too I'm not entirely sure which dimension but it's definitely the 1970s and we definitely live in a bungalow I've got a weird

Aversion to bungalows. I never want to live in a bungalow. I don't like Because I live in a flat at the moment and I don't like that my bedroom is on the same floor as my living room I find it harder to sleep because I'm not going up a flight of stairs to go to sleep It is hard-wired into us, isn't it? I wonder if I'd grown up in a flat flat feel differently. Yeah, I've always lived in the house Yeah, I mean as a child I had an actual like an attic bedroom. So I was two floors up Oh, I couldn't do that. No, I can barely bring myself to go up one flat stairs to be fair I was small and energetic and full of vigor and vim and zest and gusto and do you remember having energy still coffee actually Yeah, yeah, uh, yes, I do remember having energy and I mourn its loss every day. Yeah

So we meet some new characters in this section No, yes, that's what we do next isn't it characters Yes, let's pretend we have we have actually got some sort of plan We've got we've got that it's in it's in h2 It's an h2 is it? Mm-hmm marvelous. Okay. So we do meet uh a character called the bursa Is it the same bursa? I know I know that the the same but the when I say the same bursa that pops up in all the wizard books I know that it's him in sorcery

But I can't imagine it's not him in this one Like there's no reason why you wouldn't retcon it retcon it into be him is there? Yeah, but so this is another one where it's uh Especially for first-time readers. This seems like a very minor character, but it'll be a delight to have him turn up He's one of my favorite little side characters. Yeah, especially when he's floating Yes, so we meet him there's not much to say about him until we get to know he's just watching a little bit alarmed as things happen Oh, he's just a little bit alarmed That'll change He'll get more alarmed get more alarm than that before he breaks

Spoilers Bigger character that we meet in this section is Besson On page 100. Yep, and I think at this point It might be time for the patriarchy duck And the reason i'm suggesting that the patriarchy duck comes out here And I know prattia gets better on gender and I know as soon as the next book Which is called equal rights and it's about women that he gets better on this But it is page 100 in this down book and this is the first time a woman speaks out loud

again, we could have the the obvious counter-argument here, which is it is a parody of fantasy and women aren't there for speaking. Yes Yeah I mean to drag it back to the area and you do not want to drag it in Tolkien He was the worst for that one of my favorite books in the world the hobbit doesn't have any women speaking, I believe No, no women speaking the hobbit. Yeah um

So could you could one be generous and say that terry factor did this on purpose or I mean Yeah, this isn't a massive ransom rave at terry prattia. Like I said, I know he's better than this I know he writes brilliant books with brilliant women in And I know it's not even just the thing of the time because the following book like I said has wicked female characters in it And we will get to that. I just think it's worth clocking because I think some people Not because i'm criticizing terry prattia and I do get that this is the genre that he's parodying But I think if I don't point this out there are people who will read a book and a woman won't speak 400 pages and they won't notice. Yes

and I was definitely one of them the first few times I read this. Oh, yeah me too And that's what you get used to reading fancy and even sci-fi Yeah, it's not surprising that you go that long without a woman speaking or that there aren't many female characters but I like pointing it out when it happens because I am not Wired to see it in this sort of book if that makes sense. Yeah No, that does make sense. I think it is worth pointing out. Um

Uh, oh fuck me. What was I going to say something very interesting? I'm sure more gender parity and uh priority fences levels. Yes. Yes, definitely that that doesn't fit on a placard. So work on that I hate puns. I'm not I don't this is why I don't go to protest. It's entirely because I'm bad at puns I can't come up with a funny sign I am strongly the revolution was stopped by a lack of alliteration. Yes Uh, but yeah, no, sorry. What I was going to say was that um pratchett has an essay on I think it was a speech originally On this kind of thing in a slip of the keyboard, but I think I'll save that for equal rights. Yes

Yes, but it was just more relevant. Yeah. Yeah, just a little thing. I wanted to point out Anyway, Bethan is a character. That's uh, not I know let the let the subject overshadow her She is brilliant and I don't know if we do see her again after this book or not Uh, she's mentioned again. I'm not sure if we see her again, but she's great I I know it's really tropey, but I do love a absurd absurdly competent while happening to be wearing a long flowing gown type character Yeah, it's like the um Oh that tumbly meme I saw a while ago about how if you gather your skirts as you walk upstairs. You're immediately uh Hard done by an industrious woman in a Jane Austen novel kind of thing that character

Yes, if you carry a laundry basket on your hip, you're automatically a sort of hard done by peasant after a long day Exactly say, but yeah, no, I also like that trope. Um, I like aggressively competent. I like that. You know, she's in her gown and I love the introduction of her being really upset about not being sacrificed because she's wasted her teenage years She has actions before that, but it's mostly standing there waiting to be sacrificed Hmm Um as one does yeah when one is the subject of a sacrificial and when you're looking forward to it because you know as far as she's concerned

She's going to be up drinking something out of a silver. What's it? Yep Uh drinking me down to a silver bowl Nice, which sounds great in theory when in practice. Me doesn't very nice Silver tarnishes very quickly. Yeah, I like um, I only have me once actually it was at that goth wedding. We went to Oh, yeah, and it's too sweet for me I used to like sweet drinks. Oh, no, I like everything bitter Anyway So bethans great and she's great in this whole section

I I like that she keeps cool head that she knees Cohen in the back that she's very practical Yes, I approve greatly of her. Yes, I do as well. She's um And it's actually 17 I like very much when teenage girls are competent and I'm able to be yeah A bit of me does sort of and I don't think she wants In this whole book says oh, well, I have brothers

No I mean, there's a bit of me that does and I know I sound like I'm just looking for things to complain about I am not just looking for things to complain about You'll never make a book critic Okay, I'm going to complain about it. I don't want to be a book critic. I want to be a tv critic Much more fun Anyway, yeah, no It wrinkle it not wrinkles it wrinkles a little bit

To have this really the joke of this character Is that she's so confident despite being a 17 year old virgin who was expecting to just be sacrificed Like a little bit of her comedy comes from the fact that she very matter of factly Fixes Cohn's back. Yeah But again, is it is it not the inversion of the trope? Oh, it is very much the inversion of the trope and that's why it's funny Again, I like it just again It's being wrangled at the trope. I think rather than yes It's the trick that wrinkles me and yes, at least she doesn't say anything about having brothers

But talking about bethane does bring us to the best character introduction in my opinion of this whole section In my humble Humble, I wish you could see Joanna's posture as she says humble good grief I've never seen you sit up so straight Oh, it's ironic because I'm terrible at all of that yoga than flating your ego I know but I'm marvellously modest about it Marvellously modest. Oh, that's fun. I like that. Hmm. Right. Anyway in my humble humble opinion So humble excellent character introduction of Cohen the barberry. Yay. One of my favorites

So happy about this and I can't remember if I said in my last in in the last episode That all of my enthusiasm for front was misplaced because I was thinking of coming. Yeah, you did. Yeah But now we get to meet him in the best possible way, which is that he Briefly threatens rinse wind with a knife and then jumps in kills the priest takes the girl takes the gold Mm-hmm classic classic heroine classic love a bit of heroine He's probably the most scantily clad character. Yes Which is nice. Is he just in a loincloth leather loincloth? Yeah. In fact, I have uh

Oh, there we go The passage mark. No, I don't have the passage mark. Did I leave it? I'm so sorry. Yeah Totally bald head a beard almost down to his knees and a pair of matchstick legs on which varicose veins had traced the street map of Quite a large city Despite the snow he wore nothing more than a studded leather hold all and a pair of boots that could have easily Accommodated a second pair of feet. Hold all Well, I'm assuming it's some sort of pouch

Yeah, I'm assuming it holds all of it I rather hope it does. I feel like I shouldn't have to be specified for pants, but fine I mean, I think the implication and I really Really want you to picture this front scene is that the elderly spry man is in fact wearing a leather thong But then it wouldn't be a whole law Well whole majority Hold a bit Let the rest swing free

One buttocks swing do they? By all I kind of meant the front more than the back. Yeah, they're all right. All right The point is the Seminaked elderly man Jumps in messes things up We find out that he's got a long history of being a hero, but I'm long in history As runes room put it. Oh my granddad Oh

Yes But I like that. I like they were saying, you know, what happens to a hero once he gets past handsome posturing age that crumb was at Um, yeah, I mean they they die by that point, don't they but he doesn't he's out left at all. There's a um Really nice little line. I'm a legend in my own lifetime. Oh, yeah, that is good. Yeah And uh, yeah, no, I loved that I I just love Cohen. Yeah, um interesting times. I think we're looking forward to for lots of reasons, but Cohen's

involvement is fantastic He's brilliant in in everywhere He turns out we get but we get some great stuff than we are introduced the the This area of the disc is now introduced to the concept of dentures Dead dine to us. Dintuous. Dintuous. Yes. Yeah Which is which is very sweet and very lovely And uh, of course, he helps out saving from the trolls, which we like we like we like that We like a bit of saving from trolls and he knows about trolls

He's been around the block again. Well, and I'll say saving from trolls after they'd been quite so helpful and really it was our Ragtag bunch of heroes, but no, it wasn't their fault at all. Was it was their captors fault? It was their captors fault for tying them up in a trolls mouth. In fact, we'll get into their counter But yeah, yeah, no Cohen does a good job and in all of that he finds romance and while normally Normally age gaps do disgust me, but I like surely not 70 year age gaps. Joanna Age is just a number. There's nothing wrong with an elderly man in his prime of life Varying a teenage girl. That's just how the world works. You know, men get more handsome as they age and women don't look at George Clooney

I wish I wish our listeners could see the look on my face right now So yeah, Cohen pulls a bit of a Leonardo DiCaprio and hooks up with a teenager Oh, there's a whole bit of celebrity gossip. I've not heard but frankly, I don't care. So carry on. Yes Sorry, I live on the internet I'm pretty sure Leonardo DiCaprio has had a girlfriend that was born in this millennium And it still offends me that literally anyone was born in this millennium. They should they're all infants You are too young to be an old Crochety lady yet, Joanna. Look, I've been an old Crochety lady since I was 10 I'm just

But yeah, so normally this this would grace me out in that it's a 70 or two year age gap But there is something about the way it's written that makes it really not gross I think the way it's written that's really not gross is that Cohen at no point Expresses his wish to be with Bethan because she is a 17 year old pretty girl No, he expressed the wish to be with her because she's patient And because she's very good at neighing him in the back in the right way. Yes, it is not At no point is Cohen

Kind of acknowledging the fact he's getting together with a six seven new year old because she's a 17 year old You're only as old as the girl you're feeling Yeah, and when it sort of pointed out about the age difference between them. He sort of says Uh a lovely thing about well, it's dangerous times. We don't know what tomorrow might be and we'll hope she's strong enough to keep up with me Yeah Exactly. Yeah, I mean Yeah, it would usually be gross. It's not in this one for a couple of reasons I think they're both such charmingly likable characters. I mean they're barely on the page in this section

But they're there enough that you'd be formed very quick emotional attachments to them. Yeah. Yeah and they Yeah, neither of them gross and sappy about it They both just seem to be very matter-of-fact about the whole thing. They're very practical And I like a practical romance. I feel like more romances should be practical and based on things like knowing how to crack your A romantic partner who knows how to crack your back properly is an incredibly underrated thing In theory if jack would cooperate and do yoga, I would be able to teach him how to crack his own back Uh, no, it's not the same. No, it's not. You need someone who knows exactly when to just dig an elbow into your spine

I don't give out a lot of romantic advice Yeah, so that's probably for the best of my life. Um, that's probably So who's next who's next Joanna? Uh, you're gonna make me say it, aren't you? Yep. Yeah. Thanks. Cool, right Theatre training, that's uh, that's limber up We also meet in this section Haruna the henna-haired haradin, very nice. All right, try saying that five times quickly Haruna the henna-haired haradin. No We'll cut this but let me have a go. Haruna the henna-haired haradin

Haruna the henna-haired haradin Haruna the henna-haired haradin Haruna the henna-haired haradin Haruna the henna-haired haradin I'm very good at tongue twisters That Laurie Yellowlory is an old funnel foot No, I can't do any of the ones with L's in actually. I'm good at tongue twisters, not if it's got an L in.

I'm best at P's and L's. P's and L's. Sorry, oh my god, I'm tired. That just went together into P's and L's. Yes, not forever, P's and L's. There's an archaic tongue twister. Anyway, this red-aired one. Do you mind if I read out a bit of her introduction? Just to come back to what I've been saying in that I really like the way he pasteshes the trope here and I'll explain why. So we know that we are meeting a hero. We know Trimon has sent a hero and the book tells us that this particular hero is a heroine, a red-headed one. Now there's a tendency at a point like

this to look over one shoulder at the cover artist and start going on at length about leather, thigh boots and naked blades. And I will point out that because the cover artist is pastishing, classic 80s fantasy, we're talking about the Josh Kirby here. There is a woman with thigh high boots, naked blaze, beach ball bosons covered with a scrapper fabric. Yep. There is a side... Not even a leather.

Yep. And brief side tangent. What is with the armour for female characters in fantasy games? Oh mate, I feel at this point that's almost like airplane food and how much it's been covered. I don't know Joanna. I don't know why people... I don't understand the point of view of the people who care about it either. Like care about keeping it that way. Oh yeah. Are these... if I'm not careful I'm going to talk about Gamergate so I need you to stop me.

Let's not hit Gamergate. I just want to know why my elf character in Dragon Age Origins needs a bare midriff and why someone needs to see that when they're playing as a female elf. And if it is there, you want to see a woman with a bare midriff in pointy ears make Google. Right, yeah. That is basically what I was going to say. Just dare them randomly. Yeah. There are ways we can go another time about objectification of women and times and a place.

But just let me cover my midriff. There are swords. Yeah. Just... There are people who draw a sexy fan and a lot. Yeah. They can have all the bare midriffs they like. Yeah. Brilliant. People will do custom ones for you for a little bit of money.

Like... Yeah. Like... Give it... give an independent artist some money for your wank, don't you? But yes. So, words like full, round and even pert creep into the narrative until the writer has to go and have a cold shower and a lie down. And so the point is made that, well, although here are another hen ahead, Herodin would look quite...

Nice. Quite stunning after a good bath, a heavy-duty manicure and the pick of the leather racks in Wu Hun Ling's Oriental Exotica in Marshall A's on Hero Street. Oh, very good, Joanna. Yeah. Okay. Well, ignore the Wu Hun Ling Oriental Exotica bit. She's currently quite sensibly dressed in light chain male soft boots and a short sword. I mean, the boots of leather, but not black. Like this, I like that we introduce a female character and he calls out the trope and he

says she is dressed sensibly because she is doing a sensible job. Yeah. After the very scantily clamped dragon lady in the last book. Yes. And this is why I get so frustrated when he's, when he had the scantily clamped dragon lady in the last book because it's kind of a, are you parodying the thing if you are just doing the thing? I feel like the first book, the first book in contrast to the second book is that the

first book was just a lot of doing the thing. Yes. In all the trope too. It was just doing the thing. And this one is all inverting the thing. Yes. That's interesting. Or taking it to a different conclusion.

Yes. I do see more. You meant now. Yes. Yeah. I like inverting the trope as a parody rather than just doing the trope, turned up a bit and it's all ludge each other because yes, that's what you're doing, but you're still doing the thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway. Granted. But yeah, for all that, she's an impressively competent heroine who sets out to capture our lovely people that we've got. Yeah.

Just because she ignores advice and ties them up in a giant troll's mouth. Yes. And it is a bit frustrating that you get this heroine who is doomed to fail, but yeah, that doesn't annoy me because of her gender. Yeah. I don't know if it would have been more annoying if it just made her overconfident, do you know what I mean? Do you know what?

I am impossible to please when it comes to protagonists. I really am. Oh yeah. Very much so. Again, it's not because of gender. Anyone like unbelievably competent, I can't deal with, but also there's just some specific areas of competence that if a protagonist doesn't have, I get cross. Yeah.

I like my protagonist to be able to lie on demand or at least to have thought of a lie in advance. Yeah. Yeah. I like them to be able to at least vaguely understand some text of language and things like that. I can't deal with the hopelessly cheerfully naive protagonist, I think. I mean, you say that, but we really love Twoflower, who is the hopelessly cheerfully

naive protagonist. Yes, but if he's not Velcro to Rincewind, he very quickly becomes unbearable. Twoflower is great because he has a foil in Rincewind. Yeah. Herrena doesn't have a foil, she's just surrounded by some standard British Sidekick number one, British Sidekick number two. They do have names, but they're British Sidekick number one and British... Yeah, I can't be bothered to open the book and find out.

BS1, BS2 is all she really has in a foil, so I think it's a really good character that I wish we sort of got to see more of and I quite happily just have a spin-off series about her dealing with incompetent Sidekicks and then going home to see her lovely wife, which is me. What am I saying? I knew this was going to happen, Joanna. Look, I'm sorry. I have a really...

Stop shipping yourself with all the characters. I have a really specific type and it's holding a sword. How about a side? Segway. Segway. Two. Isabel. Yay, Isabel.

Is it Isabel? Is it Isabel? Not Isabel. I'm going to say Isabel because I don't want to say Isabel because it makes me sound like a bit of a twat. All right. Yeah, that's it. Cool.

So while we're in Death's Domain, we meet Death's daughter who uses the term Daddy, which has different connotations these days. Yeah. Let's not talk about that. No. It is the same place. Let's not go to Twitter. Oh, God.

Let's not go to Twitter. But yes, we meet Isabel who wants some friends to hang out with because, yeah, it must be quite lonely when your adopted father is the Grim Reaper and you've got no mates. I wonder if that... I mean, he's hanging out with some pretty interesting fellas, though. Well, he has. He's got war. He's got famine.

Yeah, I don't think he's got the one that left him. The other one. Pestilence. Yeah. I was trying to remember which one was the real one and which one was the new one for Good Omens. But... But...

Pollution is the new one. Pollution is the new one. So, Pestilence, this has nothing to do with the book now. I'm just excited to know if that is not one of the original Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. The original Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse were war, famine, death and conquest. What? But this is all kind of conjecture based on translation and things being translated differently. I just want to accidentally translate Pestilence into Conquest, I would like to know.

I think it's less Pestilence than Conquest is that, oh, we need a new one because war and conquest are too similar based on who's translating it. Right. Okay. So, in language A, Conquest are warming very different things and language B, they do not actually get it. Yeah. So, if you think that most of this we're getting from the King James Bible, which segue from

Segway, basically he had printed so the church would get off his back about the fact that he kept giving titles to his boyfriend because he was hella not straight. Wow. Yep, cool. Obscure history. Something like a spinoff podcast about Joe tells me which historical figures were gay. Yes, definitely. Okay, excellent.

I mean, I feel like as someone who is not a historian, I am not actually the best person for that. But yep, do it anyway. Never stopped just talking about anything before. Anyway, so yeah, so the King James Bible, that's translated by a very conquest-y type country that only gets more so in future centuries. Hello, colonialism. You sound like you're talking about a TV series again.

Yeah, I know. The point, yeah, so because the UK, for the UK or, well... England at the time. England at the time. England, Scotland. And I guess we'd subjugated Wales already. For England and Scotland, conquest and war would have very much meant the same thing because most of what England did was conquesting when it waged war on something.

Yes. Whereas in other cultures, war and conquest would have potentially been very different things. Oh, interesting. But that is more conjecture than like an actual fact if that's why we now understand the Four Horsemen the way we do. Yeah. Anyway, back to guys.

Let's try and follow the breadcrumbs back to where we are. We were with Isabel, who wants to pretty much cut Renswin's lifeline. So she's got some ways to hang out with because... Oh, we've all been there. We've all been teenage girls, isolated in a cottage in the wrong dimension, only wanting to talk to an inept wizard and a weird tourist for a little while longer. And a suitcase with lots of dear little legs. Yes.

But yes, I wonder if we'll see any more of Death's Dimension or this lovely little girl, Isabel. I wonder what will happen there. I can't wait to get to that. Sorry. Right. Sorry to new readers. We'll get there.

You'll love it. It's not a spoiler. It's fine. I don't want to talk too much about future books when we're talking about the story. I hope you love more, don't you? It's not even my favourite of the Death series. I'm just excited to get to introducing these arcs. Yeah.

All right. Yeah, that's fine. You haven't ever been here on Arc yet, have you? We haven't got to a story arc yet. Yeah. But yeah, we're at the end of this book. So that's all the new characters for me. So, bits that we liked.

Things that happened. Things that happened. Things we want to talk about more, possibly quite quickly. Well, we'll get to that. Gilmore Girls' style. We've got some weird-looking chilli fries to not eat, as we... Yeah, they never eat the food in that programme. Yeah, also, I'm rewatching from the beginning of Iron and the speed with which Luke always

delivers food to the Gilmore Girls. That is not being made fresh from scratch. Right? I am not eating no chilli fries. Even if that's something I would eat, that is not a version of it I would eat. I have strong feelings about things that happen in restaurants in fictional TV programmes. Oh, my God. Suki in the kitchen must drive me mental.

I hate it so much. Why is there just random fresh produce lying around everywhere? Why can anyone... She keeps dipping her fingers in the fan. She dips her fingers in people just wandering and out. A chef that accident prone would not have a full-time job still. She literally blew up an oven. She stalked a food critic.

Did you blow up an oven? No, the oven blew up. I just... And it didn't really... Well, it caught fire. I didn't make it catch fire. Right, the point is, Suki from the fucking Gilmore Girls is not a professional chef. And no one writing on that programme has ever been in a kitchen.

Oh, I'm sorry. Why is there fresh produce just on the couch? Because Jackson leaves it there. There's no proper stainless steel counters. No, but it's a charming inn. I don't care. The kitchen should still have stainless steel counters. Yeah.

It's wooden. You can't... Right, okay, right. I'm sorry, Joan. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have brought up the Gilmore Girls. You've got me... My ears have all pricked up.

I'm aggressive. My hackles are bare. I've somehow... Your ears are twisting this way and that. I've somehow swapped bodies with your dog. Oh, that makes sense. I thought she was peacefully snoozing all the usual. Yeah, that's because she's actually inhabiting my body.

Right, anyway. Cool. So, moving on from the Gilmore Girls to Druids. Druids and stone circles. Pretty snoozed that way that time, yeah. Yeah, no, that was really subtle. I love that. I'm a professional.

It's an allegory for computers, you've written down here. I'm misusing the word allegory again, I think. I know I looked it up. Isn't that like one of the ancestors of the T-Rex? No, that's an alligator. No, it's an allosaurus. If I'm going to do a bit, you have to be up on your paleontology, dude. Look, I'll say that.

The line that spawned crocodiles and alligators is not the one that did the other ones. The T-Rex. Yeah, there's actually a much older. Oh, right. So, the allosaurus didn't spawn alligators? No. Right. Allosaurus used to possibly use its head like a hatchet to cut off its prey or to attack its prey.

Okay, cool. Because its teeth were quite thin but very sharp. It could open its jaw obscenely wide and its skull could take like a lot of impact. And so paleontologists at the moment think it probably like opened its jaw really wide and hatched at its prey like its jaw was a hatchet. How fucking metal is that? That's so metal. That's so metal.

I want to be an allosaurus when I grow up. Why am I talking about allosaurus? Computers. Because I misused the word allegory again. I know we looked it up when we were talking about the colour of magic but I don't retain information very well. That's fine. So, stone circles are computers on the disc.

They are the disc version of computers and I found that quite amusing. It is quite amusing. Do you have a highlighted passage? I am looking for a highlighted passage. Obviously I haven't actually used highlighter in a book. I've used a ton of posters but I'm not... But they're highlighted coloured. Yes, so we're on the flying stone circle.

He describes himself as a computer hardware consultant. Yes. Because a computer, of course, is a thing that computes. Yes. A computer used to be a job title, didn't it, before? Yes, it was someone who sort of processed numbers and things. And there's a wonderful thing. It can't be software incompatibility.

The chance of the trodden spiral was designed for concentric rings, idiot. Fire it up again and try a simple moon ceremony. All right, all right, nothing's wrong with the stones. It's just that the universe has gone wrong, right? Yeah. A, I like this as an explanation of why Stonehenge is there. Yes. But yeah, tech support tropes.

Just the idea of... Why would you say A and not B? I forgot I said A. Well, the fact that it's like this vocal equivalent of an open bracket and no closed bracket. Which I have also done in my notes. Yeah. You're like the physical embodiment of an orphan bracket today. You don't want to understand that.

Look, sleep deprivation makes me very bad at ending things. Can't wait till we try and finish this episode. Oh, I think we'll just leave. We'll just leave it. I mean, I live here, but we'll just go. The dog will be all right. The dog can finish the podcast. Yeah.

A, yes, the kind of taking the piss out of tech support stuff is very funny. Yeah. And two. Right, now you're just bullying me. No, I don't have a two either. I'm sorry. Well, my B was the tech support tropes. We both have friends who work in IT and have worked in consulting.

Yeah. We've both informally taken on that role in various career jobs. Career jobs. Career roles. Career jobs for people who want money for the rent. I miss that. Yeah. It just made me giggle.

It makes me very happy. It's a fun thing to happen. If anyone listening to this hasn't watched the IT crowd, by the way, well worth it. Shame about the person that made it. Sorry? Shame about the person. I do not need to hear about who's problematic right now. Can we go through this in another day?

Oh, yeah, totally. Who made it? Glenna. Gary Graham-Linahan, who's like super transphobic. Oh, yeah, yeah, that's fine. We did go through this. Yeah. Right, we'll skip that bit.

I don't want to get into that on the podcast. Anyway, yeah. The IT crowd is genuinely a very good example of what it's like. Yeah, and it's aged surprisingly well considering how... Well, because they don't really talk about technology. They just talk about people not being able to use technology. Yeah, and that's... Well, like the book shows, it's really universal.

Oh, yeah, that's true. Yeah, we're talking about outdated technology. They're probably... Everybody's used a moon ceremony at ages. It's all dune of the berries now. Exactly. It makes me very happy. Yeah, it is very good.

Especially because I feel like this is probably not so much fantasy. It's just historically accurate. I like to think that's what Druids were doing with their stone circles back in the day. I think more or less, wasn't it? Yeah, I think so. Oh, is this all complete, like, guesses from historians? But I feel like people tell me that stone circles worked out the flavour of the sun that week, or... Hmm.

Yeah, so when Rincewend is just discovering the trolls, there's just a throwaway almost line. But there were rocks everywhere. The very bones of the disc were near the surface here. And that to me sounded familiar enough, like, calling rocks the bones of the earth, or something, that I felt like I'd heard it in a poem. And I couldn't find it if I had. However, while googling that, I found a book called Bones of the Earth, which is about how people choose landmarks in their local places.

Oh. And basically how, yeah, how landmarks become landmarks in local communities, and with a focus kind of on that for ones like rock formations and things like that. All right, which I only found today, so I'm not trying to read it yet, but it sounds quite Pratchett-esque. Yep, I like that. So I will be reading it, and it's by Howard Mansfield, if anybody else would like to have a look. I do like a bit of natural folklore and the way beliefs build up over rocks.

Yeah, and, like, why we feel attracted to this and that and the other. Yes, no, I might have to borrow that from you when you're done. Yeah, cool. Oh, no, I'm going to get it on Kindle because it's, like, a million pounds by that. I mean, 20 pounds, pay for that. Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, I'll read it up.

Anyway, so yeah, so we do also have two-flower sort of... What was I going to write down? I'm holding a notebook. Further reading on Stonehenge, too. Thanks. So as well as the... Before we get to the funniest bits with the stone circles, the jury's trying to explain what he does to two-flower,

and two-flower introduces him to the concept of almanacs and gives him a bit of culture shock. Oh, yeah. And Runtzwin does not like that because, as he quite correctly says, as a rock is held up by persuasion, you really shouldn't be trying to shake somebody's belief in it. Very much not. But I like...

Because almanacs eventually end up turning up regularly in the disc world. Yeah, hasn't there been a disc world almanac published? I think I have though. No, I don't think I have that, but I feel like I should probably get one. Well, at some point, you and I shall learn. Yeah, look at all these tangential books I found. Oh, that's great English.

That's perfect. Another one. But I've got the disc world companion, the folklore of the disc world. I've got the science of the disc world over there. I've got way more lying around than I thought I had. Yeah, I love a reference book. And we are using these to make this darling little podcast.

Yeah, it is. And it's Dear Little Legs. Oh, it's Dear Little Legs. That's what's in there now. But I'm assuming the almanac uses the Zodiac, and we meet the Discworld Zodiac. Yes. Which I'm really gutted we don't get more of.

We do get, like, in later books, every year has a name. Yeah. Which I really love that the Discworld Emporium now names every year and does... Yeah, I know. It gets to carry on. Yeah. That's good.

Do you know what this year is? I'm not sure. I think it's something to do with the lobster. Okay. Follow up. Follow up. What year is it? It seems like a note I'll be able to translate easily.

Understandably. But yeah, so we get the century of the fruit bat and... Yeah, yeah. Which is good fun. But in this with the science of the Discworld Zodiac, there's 64, including Wesson, the double-headed kangaroo, to Gehuli, the vase of tulips. Yes.

And I just, I want more of that. I know, yeah, it is a shame, like, but at the same time, like, torofrat shit. He's not Tolkien. He did not write endless and indisease. No, I know. Why do I keep saying indisease, appendices? Yes.

He didn't write any indisease either. Bod mass, not his favourite, bid mass. Sorry, I was helping someone with maths, I'm like... Oh, no. But yeah, although I suppose the folklore of the Discworld and science of the Discworld are... Which he was involved in. Yeah.

There's a lot of it, obviously, him. Oh, yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah, there's a little bit about the Zodiac in the Discworld companion. Which, yeah, there was a little bit in there that I quite like just as a little extra bit. It would be more correct to say that there are always 64 signs in the Discworld Zodiac,

but also that these are subject to change without notice. The stars immediately ahead of the turtle's line of flight change their position only very gradually as to the ones aft, the ones at right angles, however, may easily alter their relative positions in the lifetime of the average person if there is a constant need for an updating of the Zodiac. Oh, I like that.

I like that he's put thought into the fact that the turtle is swimming through space and that the stars will change. This does at least mean that astrology on the Disc is a dynamic thing and not a repository for some rather unimaginative mythology, but it does rather reduce the science to something along the lines of,

look there, look there, we're out pointing there. Does that look like a crab to you? Ah, too late, you've missed it. Oh, brilliant. I love that. I just see all these little extra bits everywhere that I'm so glad I can't reread enough times to make it unsurprising.

No, every time I read it, I spot new little bits that I really like and it makes me very happy. Always nice, funny little jokes. I somehow missed the names of the tarot, the Karak cards, the tarot cards, which is the importance of washing the hands,

the eight of octagrams, the dome of the sky, the pool of night, the four of elephants, the ace of turtles, obviously death. I don't know tarot well enough to know how well that relates to tarot. I feel like there's a lot of swords and knives. I feel like that was something you would have been into

as a teenager. I was very into it as a teenager and none of it has stayed in my brain. I had five different tarot decks at one point. I would try and read my own tarot every night. How did that go? Not great, but I had to do it. All queer teenage girls go through a wicker phase.

Yeah, we covered that a couple of days ago. We did. See, it manifested with tarot, but I don't remember it. It was. I marched inexorably towards death. Inexorably. Is that the word I mean?

Inextraably? Yeah, possibly. I've only ever seen it written down. I haven't tried saying it out loud before. Do you know what I'm not sure I have? Maybe I just corrected you with the wrong pronunciation. No, I'm pretty sure it's inextrable. I think I heard Bill Bailey say it. Anyway, I'm dying.

Yes, no, that was great. The Karak cards bit, because it was funny. The importance of washing the hands bit. But then also it said the death card was like bathed in a red light from the weird little red star and the luggage.

I just thought that was like satisfyingly creepy as a little throwaway. I like that all the stuff with the red star builds really slowly and it's not till the final third of the bit that it's suddenly like, oh, wait, no, this is a real problem that's been hinted at throughout the book. I like that it suddenly almost becomes

the big bad of the book. Yeah. It was very cool. Just creepy as well because it's red light. There's a fun little bit in this tarot bit as well because where Rince Wynn sort of has a few thoughts about women doing magic

that I quite like. It points out here that the unseen university has never admitted women because of problems of crying. Why women haven't been admitted to lots of universities, I'm sure. But the real reason was an unspoken

dread that if women were allowed to mess around with magic, they'd probably be embarrassingly good at it. I wonder if that subject, we'll talk about that more when we onto the next bit. Women doing magic, I like it. Yeah, it is good.

More witches, wizards and warlocks and all of it. All of it. Yeah, we'll try and go chronologically this time I guess. The next one I've got written down is just another writing thing rather than a fantasy thing.

Oh, it's a lovely sentence. Yeah, wherever I got it. Here it is. Another voice, dry as tinder, hissed. You would do well to remember where you are. It should be impossible to hiss a sentence with no sibilance in it but the voice made a very good attempt.

Now I think that might actually rather than just being a funny throwaway comment be a comment on something that fantasy authors definitely do which is using the word hissed where it does not belong. To illustrate my point I'm going to use

Dreia's English. A fantastic book I recommend to everybody. Benjamin Dreia says if you're seething exasperated characters must hiss something and really must they. Make sure they're hissing something hissable. Take your hands off me

she hissed from Charles Garbus for the life, 1891. No, she didn't. You try it. Yes, yes, yes, yes he hissed. Teeth, teeth my precious but we have only six GRR Tolkien, the Hobbit 1937. Okay

now we're cooking. I've seen the argument put forth that any sort of strained, constructed whispering qualifies as hissing to which I can only say that of the approximately 4.3 million ways in which one can characterise speech, hissed is not your best for S-less utterances.

Pick another word, snarled rumbled, susserated. Well, maybe not susserated. And a nice little circle back to Fracture there. Circle back to Fracture. For the repeat readers. The word susserous is a beautiful word to all of us but especially

for those who've got to us at the point. But yeah, no, you do make a really good point. It's not just hissed though like this is in fantasy books where it's a thing that's like a really crap bit of writing advice that goes round a lot which is said is dead. You stop using said

you've got to say anything but said. Who the fuck says that? Literally every bit of writing advice I've heard is only used said. Exactly. Or replied. But no, so you get hissed and snarled and grumbled and shouted and...expectorated.

He smirked. He smirked. It's not a way of speaking. This might be another one. And even an adverb on the end of said is possibly pushing it a bit a lot of the time. Your dialogue should

almost always be able to put forward its own what do I mean not tense? Tone. Tone, thank you. If it can't then it can't and use an adverb use a different way of saying said.

But don't rely on that adverb to to convey tone. And also if you're reading dialogue the tags should be your brain should almost skip over them because you're reading a conversation. Yes. You don't need to make every tag and I

should be like an end quote. I used to be really guilty of this so I found teenagers but not even just as teenagers I found so I write a bit of fiction as well it's not my I mean I write more theatre stuff so I can't use dialogue because it's just someone talking about. But I found a bit of fiction

I was working on from this zombie apocalypse Mary Shelley I don't know how I feel about that. The bits of it still exist but there is an early draft of a conversation between Byron and Prostitute punching him

and I have a different dialogue tag every time because I thought it was more interesting writing. Yeah. And then I actually tried reading it out to myself and it was awful and I just wanted to punch myself in the face repeatedly for 24 hours. Yeah I mean there's no

I didn't I went back and edited it instead. Yeah I mean that's more productive. Certainly looking for efficiency. But yes thank you for pointing that out because it hurts me and I like that I like to think that is what he was addressing when he said that. It's a great book by the way. Yeah

I keep meaning that's another one you've mentioned to me before. Yeah this one on writing well and the elements of style are probably the three I would insist any writer reads. Fair enough. Or any reader writes. Well no.

Yeah and we get to a lovely bit after another one of the Octavo interviews where they're just all sat around talking around a fire and Rinceven gets sent off to find onions and they talk about trolls and I mean also

the fact that we sort of get introduced to trolls here which get a lot more character development. But I do like the sitting around a fire talking moment. It feels straight out of Tolkien. It absolutely does and in a good way. Yeah.

This reminded me this made me want to reread the Hobbit. Yeah and the endless descriptions of food. Oh the endless I love it. See everyone complains about that and found a sea level and the Hobbit are like no I like even appetizing food. If you say it in like my tone of voice

then I can dry bread and lashings of butter and lashings. See I said lashings. Dry bread and some butter and some dried meat doesn't sound amazing but then you say yes and the bread was still after a couple of days walk

but the lashings of butter brought it back to life and they tore into the dried meat as they chatted around the fire and were like oh I'm hungry. I love a feast scene. Always can be a feast scene in a fancy bit. Yeah I totally agree.

And just lurid descriptions of food. Lurid. Lurid. Or butter. And that's just me as a chef. Butter. Anyway sorry I'll stop rubbing my thighs. This is why I've insisted on the table

this time Joanna. I don't need to see what you do with your thighs. Darling. Hurt me. So Renceman does go off on a bit of an onion hunt and as well as the classic fantasies trope of sort of sitting around here we meet just in this

sort of I don't know 50 pages I'd say we get a few brilliant moments. We get that which is straight out of the hobbit. We get an introduction to the troll philosophy of time working backwards. Yeah that's interesting actually because it's just a footnote wasn't it?

A footnote and a sentence they're talking about a prophecy that's been handed down from mountain to gravel since the sunset of time. Footnote being an interesting metaphor to nocturnal trolls of course the draw of time lies in the future. Just clearly a thought that kind of took practically a hand then it lived in his brain for a bit

and then later on in Reaper Man it's much expanded upon as in alone of all the creatures in the world trolls believe that all living things go through time backwards. If the past is visible and the future is hidden they say then it means you must be facing the wrong way.

Everything alive is going through life back to front. Oh that's lovely. It is lovely. I rather like it. Yeah I'd really like what Pratchett does with trolls over the disc world. I think it's some of the most interesting development of a fantasy creature because you don't

and trolls don't get a lot. No they don't. Elves have got these massive complicated backstories but you get trolls and individual trolls and humanity and you see them adjusting to living in a city. I like what he does with species

in general in these books but I think what he does with trolls is one of the more interesting things and I like that he right from early on he's creating a philosophy it was like that we meet a troll called Chrysoprice Yes who comes back later

as the head of the troll mafia Brachia. I don't know if it was meant to be that same troll. It is I checked. Oh it is it is. He excused it later on retconned it later on by saying the trolls are bad at spelling. It's spelling a cane here in a sea.

Yeah so it's Brachia not only is it a chiroprace it is also a chiroprace I think I'm not saying that right. There is another troll called Brachia. Brachia which is the organisation and Jasper his son

the only pebble in the tribe in this one is the first troll to be accepted into the assassins guild in Atmorepork Lovely there we go. We follow this happy little family through their life of crime. Which is wonderful and legalised murder. We'll keep an eye out for them in Brachia books it's lovely but yeah so obviously you have

this whole thing where they get put into this giant troll's mouth they set his tongue on fire he rolls around a bit he's going to kill everyone and the sun comes up and turned him into stone. And I have never seen that okay so that's another Hobbit thing I was trying to do the voice the way

in the Lord of the Rings films you get the bit where Bilbo's telling the story I was trying to do the voice Oh I'm sorry. The sun came up and turned them all into stone. I really love the fellowship with the ring out of those three films I just like everyone sitting around having a nice time and some fireworks.

Yeah it is nice. Oh it's charming. It's a very charming place. Charming bloke. Although we did pretty much exactly what happened as in last minute they turned to stone and the hero is saved.

It's not what Pratchik quotes in Folklore of the Discworld when he talks about that scene. Instead he talks about a nice landic folktale in which a troll comes to try and steal a girl's baby brother in the night

where the parents are at church in Christmassy's and she keeps him talking all night by complimenting him and singing and all this stuff and when the family come home the next morning there's a huge boulder in the path

when I once was there wasn't. Possibly that was Tolkien's because it's Icelandic. Yeah Tolkien did get most of his inspiration from Folklore I think. It's got a folkloric bit that It's got a cute little lullaby nursery rhyme thing in it as well

so I encourage people to go and read Folklore of the Discworld for myriad reasons Folklore of the Discworld is probably my favourite of all the companions. I haven't read all of the science ones to be fair. I really like Folklore in general I like picking up either self published or locally published

versions of Folklore books wherever I go to a new town and the Folklore of the Discworld is like a bunch of the best ones from it. It's great. And it's from all over. But I feel like

yes he's taking inspiration from that tale but within the book it's a lot. It's so people who are really into Tolkien can really go ha it's doing the thing from the thing. Do you remember the thing? Do you remember the thing?

Although other than Bilbo who kind of at least kind of knew what was going on did he? Yeah. Oh wait no I'm trying to remember it. No it was Gandalf who kept him talking all night. Yes. So it was Gandalf who did that. We sort of see it through Bilbo's eyes.

That's it. So at least someone was keeping them talking deliberately all night whereas at this point it was Rinzfin just fucking damn lucky he was about to get crushed and luckily the sun gave up. He's good at surviving that's why the eight spell lodged one fantasy trope to another and this is my I just love the mysterious shop.

I love you a mysterious shop. I should be more coherent. So we get the luggage's origin story which is you know they're standing around chasing and Two Flower was talking about the luggage and basically he says I just wanted a travelling

trunk and I went into a shop and you know Shot Keeper's a little wizard old guy, shot full of strange stuff and he could find us again and Koen just says oh one of those shops and shrugs and could you mind if I read the footnote out please I love this

No one knows why but all the most truly mysterious and magical items are bought from shops that appear and after a trading life even briefer than a double glazing company vanished like that hits home vanished like smoke. There have been various

attempts to explain this all of which don't fully account for the observed facts these shops turn up anywhere in the universe and their immediate nonexistence in any particular city can normally be deduced from crowds of people wondering the streets clutching defunct magical items or night guarantee cards looking very

suspiciously at brick walls and obviously we get to experience one of these shops later in the book but I like that that is the luggage's origin story even if again I think that gets a bit wrecked on later on because we meet other bits we meet more sapient pairwood

but I just love the use of that particular trope if you know if anyone knows this you will. Has any modern fantasy author as in writes fantasy set in the modern world yeah taking that trope and done it like really mundane like a

fucking argos that vanishes or something like that I don't like that I haven't read that in a book but I really hope someone has and if not now I want to write a short story about it alright you do that then. Possibly a play ooo yeah monologue yes yes yes

monologue somebody works in the shop cool right sorry I'm just going to do some brainstorming live on the podcast that's fine that's fine all curious and um you wanted to talk about you weren't going to listen to this bit anyway you just wanted to talk about how great rinse wind was for a bit as well didn't you

yeah well I'm not going to get another chance until what interesting time is probably next episode well no we've got the end of this book oh yeah that's right we've got the ending to do and we've got sorcery oh sorcery oh right yeah do you know what Joanna do you know what I just don't think we're coping today

I think we're doing alright alright well good I'm easily mollified anyway um yes my uh my last last yes good right that was my last point written down I've just got a little more evidence of rinse wind being the best i.e basically me

a couple of bits about his distrust and ignorance of the countryside um when he is searching for onions as he referenced earlier he uh he thought although you see them hanging on ropes in the market stills they probably don't grow like that I mean peasants

or whatever use onion hounds or something or sing songs to attract onions oh I forgot about that that's a very good line and then a little bit later the night closed in like filled up nice uh an owl hooted eerily at least rinse wind assumed it was an owl he was a little hazy on all mythology

that's a nightingale hooted unless it was a thrush a bat flitted overhead he was quite confident about that it really does um have you been to the countryside with me doanna um don't remind me of me this is very much you in the countryside we shall never go onion hunting together

I'm very specifically a small town girl doanna yes cities no countryside no I'm not taking the midnight train heading anywhere because I know what I likes and I likes what I knows and that does not include needy mud and fucking badgers

I also like um rinse winds not dying yeah and keenness to continue that going there's a couple of quotes on that um owing largely to inefficiency rinsewood had consistently failed to die at the right time which is my

personal fan for immortality as well um well things still tend to work out in the end there's two flowers saying it anyway I'm a firm believer in reincarnation what would you like to come back as I don't want to go said rincelyn rinsewind for me again that's basically me

and uh this isn't me so much but the calculated madness of when he has uh a grin at uh bastard henchman number two yeah sorry butch henchman wasn't it ps2 uh he grinned at him

and he put a lot of thought into that grin there's a sort of grin people use when they stare at your left ear and tell you in an urgent tone of voice that they're being spied on by secret agents from the next galaxy I mean I said when we were working on color of magic that he had to convince me a bit of rinsewind

I'm liking him more as a character now obviously I love you but you're not sorry I'm not saying it as a personal attack much as I may seem to be well you were comparing yourself to rinsewind so I don't want to immediately follow that up with well I think he's a bit of a dick and therefore

there are a couple of personality traits rinsewind and I share which is a distrust of the country side and a particular zest for the lack of death well yes no apart from that I'm not as fond of potatoes as he is and I personally quite like to see a woman making her own way

in the tarot business Karak Jack Karak Jack Karak no that's what with a K and an E no no no a lot of vowels a lot of vowels in Jack Karak's name

a lot of vowels in Jack Karak's name how did we get here right so yes no I'm coming around on rinsewind a nightingale hooted in Parliament Square there's no Parliament Square Berkeley Square Berkeley Square

God but sorry you're thinking Bill Bailey no the song a nightingale sang yeah I know but he did a parody of it in midnight in Parliament Square oh okay well there we go at least we know where my brain went I'm coming around on rinsewind as a character

I'm just still not super into rinsewind stories I don't find them quite as competitive that's fine I can understand that and literally the only reason I love them as much is the the dialogues are funny quips it's the little

things I love about rinsewind novels and I totally understand that you don't find the story lines as compelling as say the ones with good story lines yes at least we can agree on that so as we said this section ends as you so rightly said Joanna as I probably correctly said

I've got no idea we've been recording this episode for five years you so sumptuously suggested as I as I humbly humbly humbly said sumptuously I've been watching a bit of Prime Lorrie I've been watching a bit of Prime Lorrie as you so pristly surmised

darlings the end of this section is Cohen and Bethan announcing their plans to wed and just so we know where you're at if we're not using the same additions don't be offended but I think we'll go ahead with the wedding anyway and well

he looked at Bethan inside we'll just have to hope she's strong enough strong enough my Cohen accent is not good so that's where this section ends Francine do you have an obscure reference finial for us? oh I do

in Beth's house as two flower tries to take a picture of the clock the imp complains about the poor lighting and says about three bloody years on f8 I reckon or something along those lines and I had no idea what that meant

do you? well it is a photography reference as one might expect from a camera be it? iconograph and it is basically f8 refers to aperture and aperture is the

opening of the lens allowing the light to come in and so the number corresponds to how open the lens is the the higher the number the smaller the opening so f8 is reasonably small and about three bloody years

is referencing shutter speed of the camera and when taking a photograph the longer the slower your shutter speed the more light comes in is allowed in so if I were taking a picture outside at night I would have a very slow shutter speed

and hopefully a very steady hand that also lends to blur so basically what the imp is saying is the light's bloody bad in here as he had said beforehand so it's no revelation Joanna but it is I hope you will agree reasonably obscure this belongs in our cabinet

in our obscure reference cabinet next to the obscure reference finial parallel to whatever random item I decide on next week excellent thank you I've learned a lot there I enjoyed that well I think with that we're coming to the end of the show

oh god I'm sorry I love you dearly Joanna and all of that but I don't think we're we're long for this world unfortunately I've forgotten what our social media presence is again that's alright

fine I'll talk about something else yeah so thank you for listening oh I did so well there I did have a bunch of stuff I wanted again the eight pages of notes here the beginning of the universe did I quite like the spells

the kind of arguing about how the universe began it was a great day no it was a firmament oh if anyone's interested you're wrong in the beginning it was the clearing of the throat pardon me the slime distinctly rubbery I thought which was quite amusing and also I believe

a little not foreshadowing exactly but a little proto-wizard argument that we will see many times again in some of my favourite books I do like old men arguing about nothing I do isn't argument the collective noun for wizards

I believe so yes well I feel it should be anyway thank you very much for listening to The Truth Shall Make You Fret I've been Joanna Hagan Young and I've been Franting Carol if you enjoyed the show please rate us and review and subscribe wherever you get your podcast

if you want to get in touch with us you can on Twitter we're at Make You Fret pod you can go to Facebook at The Truth Shall Make You Fret you can email us The Truth Shall Make You Fret pod at gmail.com or if you really want to get in our good books

you can tie a note to the leg of an albatross and send it to me can I close this show Joanna with a little pun I believe you can during the scene in which everybody is in the priestly

ceremony bit cohen that's the line there's priests for you so the old man wetly nothing but talk talk talk marvellous beautiful and on that dear listeners

don't let us detain you alright don't make me laugh don't be doing anything energy francy I can't out looking incredulous just make face do something about it resting off puffing face

rough alright rough