The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 59: Interesting Times Pt. 3 (The Ennui of the Barbarian Heroes)

Episode Date: July 26, 2021

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 3 of our recap of “Interesting Times”. Sandwiches! Sumos! Some Nuance!Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretWant to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:The Other Half of the Secret - Neil Gaiman’s JournalThe sandwich war - /r/curatedtumblrA Cook’s Tour, Anthony Bourdain - Goodreads/r/Admiral_Cloudberg - redditWillow Pattern Plate - WikipediaTerra Cotta Soldiers on the March - Smithsonian MagazineEdible bird's nest - WikipediaMusic: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

How's that? Yeah, you sound fine. Yep, I can hear. I can hear seagulls. Yeah, I can't shut the window. I really can't. That makes me happy. I love seagull noises. I love seagull noises. I fucking hate the seagulls. They're the reason I'm not growing strawberries. So I saw on Twitter that something, something Neil Gaiman. Yeah, he tweeted something and it sounded like it was Good Omen's news and the blog wouldn't load. So I just tweeted it saying it was Good Omen's news. It's not actually Good Omen's news. Good Omen's adjacent? Good Omen's adjacent is that there's also going to be an Anansi Boys TV series with Amazon Prime. So is that going to be like Good Omen's showrunners or American

God's showrunners or? It's being, as it's Prime, I can't remember which production company is now. I feel like it's going to be more tied to American Gods. Well, Good Omen's was Prime as well, wasn't it? Oh, no, it was BBC, wasn't it? Well, it was BBC and Prime. I think Prime was what allowed them to have the massive budget. Right. So yeah, I don't know with the Anansi Boys which production company is going to handle it or how linked it's going to be to American Gods because... Did it not say on the blog post? I can't remember. I read the blog post. I definitely read the blog post whether or not I can remember any details. Are you finding the blog post? Yeah. Has there been any reaction on Twitter that

you've seen? Mostly just people excited. It's like it's a bit of an underrated book, but it is a very good one. The radio play of it that they did for the BBC was fantastic. I feel like I must have listened to that. I must have done, but I can't remember it at all. Was it a Radio 4 release? Yeah. I don't remember when it came out now. It was quite a while ago. Like a good few years, I'd say three or four years ago. We've got Gaiman and Len Henry writers on the series. We've got Gaiman and McKinnon as Kosho runners. Oh, that's Douglas McKinnon. He was involved in Gaiman's as well. That's good. Maybe it will be... Well, I mean, not that American Gods is bad. No, but there was some drama with... Weren't you

telling me with one of the actors? Yeah, so I'm just checking what his surname is. The guy who played... Orlando Jones, who played Nancy in American Gods, ended up written off the show. There was some kind of falling out, I think, with a producer or a director. Screwed over. So that's this new story. I'm getting very fast on the Googling today. Yeah, you really are. He has very much spoken about it as being screwed over. But yeah. What was the thing? Apparently Charles Egley might have been the man behind the firing. Oh, the new show... Yeah, because the showrunner changed for season three. Right. Okay. Well, it doesn't look like he's involved in the Nancy boys. That's a shame because he was very good. Well,

no, I mean, the new showrunner. Oh, right. No. Yeah, no, I'm hoping they get Orlando Jones back for an Nancy boys. Yeah. So yeah, he was in maybe a bit into season two. I can't see anyway. Yeah, I can't remember. But yeah, I hope he's back because he was very, very good. I mean, I'm sure whoever they cast will be great. Yes, it would be a shame that... Yeah. I mean, I remember you saying there was possibly some racism involved. I'm not sure if there was any explicit in the firing. But I think from what Orlando Jones has said, he pointed out that like a lot of the characters of color are suddenly gone. Yeah. I've got written out. So yeah, which is racism, but maybe not a virtue racism. Yes. Oh, well, we'll find

out. I guess that that that announcement was like literally yesterday, wasn't it? Yes. In our recording times, we're recording Thursday, Thursday, three days after we recorded our last one. Yeah. The day after we released our video watches. I have changed since then. Like I've watched this top. It's fine. It's just my least, my least touching me top. Yes, video watches. I apologize. But while it's this hot, the true show make you frat and cut is unfortunately going to just feature a lot of my boobs. Also, as I learned today, if you are going to risk sunbathing topless on your balcony, be very careful about what you apply sun cream. Sorry, should I not make jokes about that on the podcast? No, no,

I'm just trying to work out what what do you mean where you apply sun cream or where you forget to apply sun cream because it wouldn't normally they wouldn't normally get the sun. Right. Okay. And therefore now some of it accidentally drawn something or no, no, I just burn my nipples. Oh, no. Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, that's unfortunate. But quite funny. I'm laughing at them. Searing, searing analysis from us at the true show make you frat hearing. Oh, God, I wasn't even aware of the check. I'm always I were factor 50 anywhere that the sun hits me. And therefore I am as pasty as ever, more or less, I'm blonde. I had my head on today. Oh, yeah, it looks very nice. You can't really see. I've got a bit longer for the was it in

trips this summer, a horrifically hot in the hairdressers. No, she she had the air caught on to a nice temperature. It was about 2122 should have it even cooler. But you know this better than me. Apparently, if it's too cold, color doesn't take properly. No, it needs to be a certain warmth and what have you. She said that my hair takes blonde very well. So she used a 20% peroxide on mine instead of 30%. I think most brunettes get 30. Yeah, I could go platinum blonde if I wanted, which I don't think I do. But it's nice to know I have the option. Yeah, I don't think platinum blonde would suit you. No, I don't think so. I'm too pale. I think I'd look like the midwitch cookies character rather than a supermodel. Yeah, I really wanted

to do that kind of silvery white, but my my hair will not take that. Which is the same because you would actually look very good with that color. Well, I'm hoping when I go gray, I do it dramatically. Me too. As opposed to the current odd grays that I'm still plucking out. Yeah, I asked Lindsay and she says I've not got any grays coming through yet. But that's nice. But she'll tell me. But again, apparently dark hair, they come quicker. Yeah, I figured that. I am thinking about like doing some highlights or something there. Yeah, what kind of color? Like coppery or like blondie?

Like coppery kind of like caramel-y highlights. That'd be nice. Quite like almost 90s, but a bit more subtle kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Not like when I used to have just massive chunks. Not like that. But I kind of color, you know, yeah. Yeah, that'd be nice. Highly recommend Lindsay. I might. I still haven't found a hairdresser that I don't hate. She's very, very good and will properly listen to you. That's cute. Yeah. Anyway, this isn't relevant to anybody. No. From us. I swear I had something else. Bratshit adjacent, but like no thoughts,

head empty at all times. Tell me about the Tumblr drama. Oh my god, the Tumblr drama. The Reddit Tumblr drama. There's actual Tumblr drama as well, which seems to be centered around some idea of Tumblr plus as an idea coming out. There's like a... Oh, there's like going to be some kind of premium subscription monetize your Tumblr shit. Yeah, but they only rolled it out to one user to start with, and they posted about it and got like so many death threats because they were the only one who like, it was so bad. It was very Tumblr, according to everybody there. I was horrified and happy in equal amounts. Anyway, tell me about sandwiches. Sandwiches. Oh my god, yeah. So this was either Saturday or Sunday in

the our food subreddit. And for those of you who aren't very online, especially not in foodie subreddits, there are lots of beautiful pictures of food and absolute cesspits of humanity. Mostly the kind of people who like to say, well, actually, I think you'll find... I think you'll find a carbonara doesn't have any cream in it, and you should go and chop your own head off. Yeah, no, that is a very, very traditional response on the cooking subreddit, which means there's also a couple of spin-off subreddits such as I am very culinary and cooking circle jerk. Anyway, so in the main food subreddit, someone posted a very good fried chicken burger slash sandwich, as in it was a piece of chicken that had been deep fried with the coating and

what have you in a burger bun. See, I would call that a sandwich, but I expect somebody would think it a bit further than me saying, I'd call that a sandwich. Yes, so they called it a chicken burger. Somebody replied and said, this chicken sandwich, that would normally be the end of it. Some people would argue about the semantics for a bit, and then it would get shared to why I'm very culinary, where we'd mock the people arguing about the semantics of food. But a mod really reacted badly to this. Okay, in our food. Yeah, so in the foods subreddit, a mod basically kind of lost their shit at the person commenting, actually, it's a chicken sandwich, banned them, and sent them a very long message explaining that, God, I can't remember the phrase

now, it was, it's so rude to correct people like that in public, you're publicly shaming them. Publicly shaming them. Publicly shaming them. And that's literally this comment was just, it's a chicken sandwich or? Yeah. Right. Yeah, you're publicly shaming them. Here's how to generally correct people and you're banned for 30 days. This person messaged. Jail. Jail for 1000 years. This person then went over to the subreddit today I fucked up and shared the story of how they fucked up by saying chicken sandwich. Oh, see, that's interesting. See, I filtered that subreddit because usually it's just people making up sex stories. Yeah, yeah, I did. And the today I fucked up post has since been

deleted, although there is a paste at it somewhere. Anyway, so that person about everyone for and today I fucked up is very popular subreddit. So they then brigaded the food subreddit. Right. By commenting on every post with actually it's a chicken sandwich. By this point, the original argument had also made it to I am very culinary where people were joking about the semantics of chicken sandwiches versus burgers because the actual our food conversation had got to the like a 50 comment thread of people arguing about what constitutes a burger versus a sandwich. Goodness me. So we're in the I am very culinary subreddit where they're making fun of this thread where I was getting really into semantics and also

talking about the semantics. Turns out the mod who went a bit mad in our food is also a mod in I am very culinary so lost their shit at that conversation because at this point in the mods dealing with our food getting brigade. So then all of the posts got locked in our food. No one was allowed to comment on anything. There were millions of pictures of chicken burgers slash chicken sandwiches whatever you want to call them and every possible imaginable variation. So cold sliced chicken between sliced bread a very obviously a burger but put between sliced bread. Everyone was being very sarcastic. So of course there's a brilliant subreddit called subreddit drama where these things get these stories of these ridiculous things happening get written up.

So someone goes to subreddit drama and writes up the whole story of the chicken sandwich comment and the today I fucked up post and the Brigading and the mod also being in I am very culinary turns out that same mod also a mod of subreddit drama. Oh oh who gets very emotional. How do they have time for life. Well this is the thing they were complaining in all of the comments and like these three separate subreddits like I don't have time for this moderation and everyone Brigading the subreddits I mod I've got children and everyone's like okay well somebody please think of the children and everyone is responding to this woman saying okay well leave it then and go and see to your children like we're just taking the piss but it got more and more intense.

The original chicken sandwich commenter is now permanently banned from our food. They know they didn't. Oh they posted it today I fucked up was that way. Yeah so they're now permanently banned from the foods subreddit. I'm not sure what's happened with the mod most of the comments are locked. The food subreddit is slowly coming back to normal but there is still one or two chicken sandwich comments every day. And how did this end up in tumblr? Oh yeah so then someone ended up writing up the whole story on tumblr which I saw when it was then posted back to the tumblr subreddit. Oh my god I need a cork ward. I love the internet. Oh that's horrible I love it. All so listeners please contact us and tell us whether you call it a chicken sandwich or a

chicken burger. I'll fund my flag in the sand here and saying I'd call it a chicken sandwich and despite sounding like I don't care at all about it you should know I'm willing to have a really serious argument about. Okay see my argument for calling it a chicken burger is that when I hear chicken sandwich I think like a cold chicken sandwich in a packet from Tesco. Right so if I'm thinking like this is American isn't it like a fried chicken sandwich sounds very American to me. Well the person who posted it was English and called it a chicken burger and the commenter was American and I think that's where the that's where the issue happened. Think of a world in which they could have gone chicken sandwich surely because this and the thing went and the OP could

have gone oh I wonder if this is a regional difference because I'm posting from the UK where usually our chicken sandwich is a cold chicken and they would have gone oh well that's interesting because fried chicken here has an interesting cultural heritage and we would have all had a lovely day but what a boring intro that would have been if we'd recounted it. Yes instead the listeners get me desperately trying to explain Reddit. I like that we should have a Joanna desperately tries to explain internet drama corner. All right we're dropping it. I can't think of a good acronym. Maybe that's work on the acronym. All right in the meantime should we make a podcast. Oh wait no I can make it Jedi.

Joanna explains drama on the internet. Yes Jedi corner. Anyway right should we make a podcast. Oh yeah what what subject do we do the podcast. Hello and welcome to the Two Shall Make You Threat a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series one at a time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagen and I'm Francine Carroll and this is part three of our discussion of interesting times. They're getting interestinger. They are definitely much more interestingly. Hmm I'm good at words. Part three. Last last act. Last act. Note on spoilers before we crack on. This is a spoiler light podcast. Obviously heavy spoilers for the book interesting times

but we will avoid spoiling major future events in the Discworld series and we're saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld book until we get there so you dear listener can come on the journey with us. Across multiple fields falling in ditches at every opportunity. Covered in mud. Covered in mud. Have we got anything to follow up on? Nope. Excellent. You? Probably. Cool. Would you like to tell us what happened previously on interesting times? I'll try my best. I'm going to be reading my own handwriting here. I wrote my notes outside in the garden because it was such a nice day. I planned the episode outside on my balcony. Previously on interesting times. Rincewind meets escapes and is recaptured

by the Red Army who want him to great wizard his way into the palace. Luckily slash unluckily the army's attempt coincides with Cohen and Co's explosive distraction. Imprisoned by the emperor Rincewind is reunited with ultra and two flower while the silver horde saunter through the palatial through a palatial invasion. Rincewind escape is too easy and his suspicions are confirmed when he finds the emperor dead. Two-faced, two-fire herb gets his eternal reward from Lord Hong and Cohen takes the conveniently empty throne and contemplates a quiet retirement. Ha, ha. Ha. Ha. So you needed to be three. Now you made it weird. Sorry. So being weird about prime numbers. Yeah, no three is a prime number. I had to check for a

sector. Apologies if there's a minor background buzz for a sec. I need to pull my laptop closer for this bit and the fans on. For moral support. Yeah. Yeah. That's my friend. All right, in this section of interesting times. So much happens. Good luck. Once again, Rincewind is running. As pretty butterfly fights off guards and comes to the conclusion that the rebels were supposed to take the fall for the death of the emperor, Rincewind finds himself in the dorm rooms of some rather large wrestlers. Two-fire herb reports to Lord Hong, who's quite frustrated that the framing of the rebel fraternity hasn't gone as planned. He presents a folded execution order to the two-faced two-fire. Yes, we both feel it. I love you too. Cohen takes the empire and introduces himself

to the imperial court. Rincewind continues to run, guards and wrestlers hot on his heels. He lunges through the laundry and prevents a pottery painter from perfecting his work. He stumps the stampede with his abandoned hat and escapes his pursuers with a peasant disguise. The horde discuss divvying up their new empire as Cohen sends for breakfast. Hong pops into the kitchens with a hint of poison and Rincewind, still posing as a peasant, prevents Cohen's untimely end as Cohen gives Hong's conspirators a deadly dinner. The Red Army is brought to the court for safety. Warlords gather to keep the imperial throne in the families and the horde, convinced to keep the empire by teach, decide to fight them all. Hong waves the

red flag for a parley and tells the horde their armies will meet in front of the city at dawn. Rincewind starts a handy bit of ghostly PR around the armies and with a bit of help from Dibbler, rumours of foreign bloodsucking ghosts spread among the soldiers. Hong and the warlords discuss the rumours, announce their own ghosts, and as a storm brews, Hong plays dresser. Meanwhile, back in Eggmorpork, the wizarding faculty discuss bringing Rincewind home. The wizards work, the horde waits, and Savalloy is sorry as he prefers to join the fight. As dawn comes, the citizens and the rebels watch from the walls. Rincewind runs again and reconnects with the luggage while the storm gets closer. Cohen gives Hong a chance to surrender and a furious Hong finds

his fellow warlords fretting. Rincewind heads for the mysterious hill by way of a chat with a buffalo holder. The storm rolls in as Rincewind climbs them and the mud-soaked wizard interrupts two deserting privates and finds an iron pagoda before a butterfly builds him a tiny storm and he falls into the hill. Landing in a cave, he finds a few handy terracotta warriors. Static charges spark as butterfly storms swarm above the armies, lightning strikes the iron pagoda as the horde attack, and Rincewind dons some magic armor and controls the real red army as it rises from the earth. Meanwhile, at the university, a single butterfly interrupts Hex's calculations. The clay army take over the battle, the luggage

takes up some spare warlords, and the horde head to the palace. Rincewind performs terracotta charades and two-flower rescues his old friend from the magic armor and delivers the news that Cohen's making him the great wizard. Nothing can go right for too long as Lord Hong finds Rincewind and threatens to make a public example of him. Luckily, the great wizard disappears before Hong can take things further, and two-flower confronts the author of his tragic history. A barking dog reduces the no longer Grand Vizier, unfortunately taking out Teach in the process. Two-flower becomes the new Grand Vizier as Cohen settles into his empire. A mix-up at the university and some titting about with triangles sends a mysteriously large rat to the wizards in place

of Rincewind and sends the wizard himself to a strange new land as Hex dreams on. Do you think titting about with triangles is too risky for the episode title? Do you think the algorithm will hate that? Probably right. I think titting's all right. I reckon we can get away with titting. All right, all right. Let's down on the short list then. Excellent. Cool. Well done. That was very good summary. Thank you. All right, that sounds... Why can't I never sound sincere? It was a good summary. If I sound angry for some reason, it sounds like I mean it. It's okay. I believe you when you compliment me. Good. Good. I just don't... I don't believe myself. I do believe myself, but it's just, you know, the earnestness in my voice never comes through.

I believe you. Anyway. Anyway. Right, sorry. Helicopter and lollipops. Implied. In the storm clouds. Please just say there weren't helicopters in those clouds. Butterflies are basically helicopters. Sure. And they were twirling about a bit. And there was another valkyrie. And there was another valkyrie. I think you tried to pass that off as a helicopter once. Yeah, I didn't want to do it a second time. It's like the broomstick thing. You pass off a valkyrie as a helicopter once, then it's fine, but you do it like every time there's a valkyrie, and suddenly you're a hack. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me. No, wait. Fool me once, shame on

you. Fool me twice. That's not a helicopter. Exactly. Obviously, many loincloths are bound what with barbarians and all. Almost. Almost. Not worth mentioning anymore. There's so many loincloth flapping around in the wind. Which means I was right about the regular occurrence of a loincloth in the books. Sure. Yeah. I mean, definitely with the loincloth. Less so with the helicopters. Yeah. Definitely. I think it's giving you something to focus on and lofty ambitions, isn't it? It's given me, it's gotten me through these hard, these interesting times. Oh dear. Anything else? Any other things that we'd like to talk about?

Yes. The running theme of odds being against us. Sorry, just throwing my pen. Millions one chances nine times out of 10 and all that comes back again with the idea of six old men against 700,000. Homeopathic warfare, as Rince Finn put it. Which was one of my favorite jokes of the book, actually. I'm sorry, did you want that one? No, I don't think that was actually the page I marked. Odds of 1000 to one ain't a lot worse than 10 to one. So the pushing and shoving. Yes, yeah, they can't all get to you at once. Yep. Good old Cohen. Always good for the warfare. And for those keeping track, death is back.

Still haven't had a book without death propping in saying hello. It's a nice little moment when he sees Rince Wind and sort of looks a little bit threatening at him. It's hard for him not to look threatening in his defense. Well, yeah, but it's sort of, I wasn't expecting to see you here. However, I could. Which I like is a little throwback to death's active vendetta against Rince Wind and the color of magic. It's quite the way death talks about Rince Wind. It's almost like Rince Wind is his equivalent of that butterfly. It's like, well, you're making things uncertain. Little chaos man. Little chaos man.

Cakes, was it? Yes. So I was glad to see death and his good natured vendetta again. Yes, I enjoy his good natured vendetta quite, I think, on first. You were first. You were on page 250. Thank you. I'm glad you know where I am because I don't have a clue. And we're going from 224 in case we didn't see that already. Yes, I think I mentioned. Ladies and gentlemen and other beings. I hope we have at least some things made of sapient power listening to us. Fingers crossed at least one luggage has got its headphones on.

Or has eaten an iPod. I don't know how luggage is listened to things. That's a good way to address a crowd other than ladies and gentlemen because that's a gross phrase. Um, esteemed guests or motherfuckers? Well done. All motherfuckers. Esteemed guests, motherfuckers and sapient pair with luggage. I'm not saying like I'll address a crowd as esteemed guests and motherfuckers. I'm saying that depending on the formality of the situation, I'll either say... I quite like the mix. I'll either say esteemed guests or motherfuckers.

It's a bit like truckle. You can say esteemed guests in the kind of way that makes them think motherfuckers. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I'm working towards. Anyway, what are we on about? Quoting. You miss begotten wretch? Who are you calling a miss begotten wretch? It's just the way I'm sitting.

Sorry, this is a quote from Mr Savaloy. You kill this and you stole that and you defeated the giant man eating avocados of somewhere else, but it's all stuff. It's just wallpaper gentlemen. It never changes anything. No one cares. Back in Antmorpog, I've taught boys who think you're myths. That's what you've achieved. They don't believe you ever really existed. They think someone made you up.

Your story is gentlemen. When you die, no one will know because they think you're already dead. What do you think of that little speech? I like it. I don't know that I agree with it. I was going to say it is a good speech, but I don't think I agree. I think teach as it backwards. I think they've achieved a lot if they've become myths in their own lifetime. What's the line from when we first meet Conan?

I'm a legend in my own lifetime. I'm a lifetime in my own legend. Something like that, yeah. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I enjoy how it's written and I understand where teach is coming from. He thinks that you guys are so great you should have done something. Changed history in a way that... And this is what he's...

I've got a lot more to say about the history changing and the ennui of the barbarian heroes, but I'll get to it later. The ennui of the barbarian heroes. Oh, what a book. I want to write that as like a really bad cheesy bodice ripper romance novel now. Or like as a renaissance painting. You do the painting. I'll do the novel and I'll be in Scotland for you.

Anyway, sorry. What was your quote? Oh, who cares? No, actually, I quite like it. This is a rinse wind. He's looking at the... Or speaking to the man holding the buffalo on the end of a piece of string. Someone see you enslaved and someone want you to run the country,

or at least let them run the country while telling you it's you doing it really, said rinse wind. There's going to be a terrible battle. I can't help wondering. What do you want? The buffalo holder absorbed this one to consideration too, and it seemed to rinse wind that the slowness of the thought process wasn't due to native stupidity, but more to do with the sheer size of the question.

He could feel it spreading out so that it incorporated the soil and the grass and the sun that had headed on out into the universe. Finally, the man said, a longer piece of string would be nice. Ah, really? Well, well, there's a thing. Said rinse wind. I liked that moment.

One of Pratchett's famous beautifully building crutch and blip. But also kind of profound. Very profound. Not just a splatter, profound splat. Profound splat. I do like the sort of joke that lands like an overheated frog. Yeah, yes.

That is the best simile I can think of in the moment. No, no, you're right. It's very evocative and disgusting. Well done. Evocative and disgusting is my middle name. Well, it's not its Francis, but it was going to be my confirmation name. Esteemed guests, motherfuckers and the evocative and disgusting ones.

Right. So characters. We've already seen death. So who's with him? He's with war and Clancy. War and Clancy. They're the classic to some. Classic to some new album dropping any day now.

Had to drop the hottest indie record of the summer. No, obviously war being a fellow horseman of the apocalypse, which again, nice little. There's lots I want to say about foreshadowing in this book that I can't. And I've already made a bunch of notes for another book. Yes. That's it's not spoilery to say this is hinting at future events. But I like the little moment of it talks about the forehorseman of gossip spreading

around the forehorseman is misinformation. And then a couple of pages later, we get another horseman turning up in war. Yes, I like I really put that in a little bit. I like so that we could think of forehorsemen of this and that. But I think we already did that in Good Home instantly. I think we've done a couple of them. But he's brought along his son's terror and panic and his daughter Clancy. Who is a member of the Pony Club.

That made me smile. And then who else do we have? We have the luggage and the luggage yet. I would like to point out I'm not being sexist. It's like a small diminutive term though, and it's bigger. I was going for like Smurfette. Oh, sure, sure, sure. Yeah.

So I'm not actively being sexist. I'm a little guys and little guys. I don't believe that is luggage in front. It's just a French accent ish. You're the one who is a bit French near the ears. Well, as I've said, my grandfather must be ashamed of me. Yes. So the luggage has got a girlfriend.

How do you say my grandfather is spinning in his grave in French? We must have at least one French listener. French listener. How do you say that in French? Help me disrespect my ancestors, will you? In multiple languages. In his mother tongue. Anyway, what are we on about?

The luggage and the luggage yet. Tell me about them. Well, it's nice to see the luggage back, even if he's not around for long. I like that the sort of femininity of the luggage yet is subtle and that it's that she's bigger. Yes, with more room for frills. Frills. And I like the rinse with sort of the baby's luggage is bigger, right?

I'm not sure why. Yeah, because, yeah, they're clothes that flounce you. Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. I mean, kind of like petticoats do take up more room in a bag. That is just fact. No, if I want to travel with petticoats, I do have to consider the luggage requirements.

Travel with petticoats. That's your next book. I'm pretty sure when I was going for a weekend away once, I wanted to wear, I wanted to take petticoats for wearing 50 stresses and so I just wore like three petticoats in the car. That's awful. Yeah, it was very uncomfortable. It was very itchy.

So we've got the luggage, the luggage and lots of tiny little mini-luggages. Little luggage. Bags. Yes, yes. Bags and little boxes. Teenie trunks. The things, tiny trunks.

But then the luggage abandons his new family. Or perhaps, we don't know what they said. Perhaps the luggage has said, go, be free or more annoying than useful, I can raise this family on my own. Quite possibly. Or maybe the idea of a nuclear family just isn't really a thing in luggage world.

Yeah, it's true. I am very much. I mean, I don't know why I'm trying to defend this mass murderer of a chess. Boss. But it's the dear little legs. I can't help it. He's got very dear little legs. But I like that Rinswin sort of is going,

well, I suppose she's a girl luggage. She's got dainty feet with painted tone. And then goes inlaid bits. Why do I think of the luggage as male? Women are reasonably capable of just as much homicidal rage. So I'm going to go, you know, point for feminism for Rinswin. Yeah, well done him. Yeah, eventually.

Rinswin's a feminist now. Who else we got? We meet, we don't meet one sun mirror, but we find the tomb of one sun mirror. But the setting is draw. Have you got a bit to read? Yes. I think it was that line, to be honest. Oh, I'm sorry.

Around the set of the mouth and the look of the eyes, there was an expression he'd last seen on the face of Genghis Cohen. Expression of somebody who really wants to hit somebody else for the sword. Yes, which but I like, you know, all of the noble history and legend around the formation of the empire and one sun mirror and his terracotter army and all the myth that's built up around it and the Red Army belief that it was really a peasant uprising. To find A, that the terracotter army is completely real

after Rinswin's been very spectacle, spectacle, skeptical. Red, I don't think it's called the terracotter army at all. Is it just the Red Army? I think it's the Red Army because that's the colour of the clay. But they are referred to as terracotta soldiers a couple of times. Oh, yes, of course. Yeah, to find out A, that the army's real and B, that this guy very much looked like Cohen and that he just wants to hit people with swords.

And we've got another little moment with Hex. Who got accidentally gendered and named. Yes. And therefore he has more power now. Anthropomorphised. Anthropomorphised indeed. And they started doing things like answering questions an hour and a half before he's asked them.

Yes, is there a word for more than humanised? A super anthropomorphised. Yeah, sure, why not? Yeah, cool, cool. But I like Ponder's attitude towards this happening. Medal first, understand later. You've got to meddle a little bit before you've got anything to understand. There's scientists in that building.

That's how science works. And yes, Hex getting slightly interrupted by a butterfly. Yeah, well, he's as susceptible as the rest of us. And yeah, and then Cohen and the Horde. Cohen and the Horde. What happens for them in this section? Yeah, it says they're ending almost, isn't it? There's a little side note for everybody else, but mainly it's all barbarian.

It is. We've got the big barbarian moment. We are so the retired heroes bit. And it was quite a funny bit as they're sort of wandering through the city and getting back to the palace, having technically won. It's the dialogue between action that you quite like, isn't it? Yeah, it's the nice writing is as they go and do all of these things, Cohen's just having this very casual conversation.

And he's sort of saying, oh, did Volta and the Interestructible have a bit of a rest? And someone says, well, he's dead. And then he keeps interrupting with all these things, which includes, for those wondering, what happened to Haran the Barbarian? Our good friend. He gets an epilogue. Finally gets an epilogue. He's a Sergeant of the Guards somewhere.

Might make Captain. Stop with the pension. Good for Haran. Good for Haran. And yeah, it just keeps happening. He's sort of about to hit someone with a massive sword and then goes, wait, hang on. Cowdy the Strong?

The terrible man eating sloth of Klopp. He was. I like the metal poisoning. Three swords through the stomach. Yes. Yeah. It turns out they're the last of the species. Yeah.

And it's interesting to see how that motivates him because it does motivate him to pause and settle down as much as it motivates him to get through the last part of the fight. Yes. Yeah. It's a, I wonder why? Because there would be no one else to talk about him afterwards, maybe, because... Yeah, I feel like it's a... He doesn't want the entire barbarian idea to be gone from the disc.

Yeah, I think it's something along those lines. But I think until he's had that conversation, it hasn't really... He's had a couple of moments of down throughout the book, but he's not really faced his own death. That's true. Yeah, he didn't really believe it. He would die. That's one of those. It's not going to happen to me, is it?

Exactly. Obviously, I understand technically 700,000 men could kill me, but I mean, not really. Yeah. Which, speaking of death... Oh, that wasn't even the bit I was going to mention, but yes. Before we get to that, something I found interesting, the ethics around assassination, especially when it comes to the barbarians. Everyone else in the court being shocked that Hong would just blatantly poison the new emperor,

because that's not how it's done. Yeah. Followed up with Cohen's kind of horror at the poisoning, because that's not how you do it. Yeah. You invite him in with all his henchmen, sit them down, get them drunk and sleepy, and then summon your men from the hiding places to massacre them in a straightforward, no nonsense and honourable manner. Yeah.

But something I can't find... I don't know, not weird. It's not really a criticism, but Pratchett is usually... And I think I've brought this up as a criticism a couple of times before, but Pratchett is generally very respectful of the act of death. There's very little casual death in these books. Yeah. Yeah.

But Cohen kind of straight up murders someone in cold blood. Which one? I can't remember the names of them now, but there's the two chancellors who he associates with the poisoning, who are like Hong's... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he feeds them very, very poisonous meat to the dude, knowing he's going to pretty much instantly kill him. Is that worse to you than chopping the head off a guard who said,

I'd die for my emperor? I feel like at least the chopping the head off the guard, it's kind of making a point. And also giving the guard the opportunity to kind of make the choice. Because the idea is, I don't know. No, it did... You're right, it was kind of the showmanship of this one was weird. Yeah, it was an odd jarring moment for me. It was the emperor-y.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, I do know what you mean. Yeah, it didn't read the same as the rest of them. It wasn't like a battle kill. Exactly. It didn't read as very Cohen, and it didn't read as very Pratchett. It was a public execution.

Yeah, which is normally something villains do. Yeah. Like if you see... Of course, Cohen is, you know... I don't think he's... Not a great guy is the point, isn't it? It is the point, but I don't think he's ever written to be villainous. The point of Cohen is that he's not villainous, he's just a barbarian.

Yes, although we do kind of accept that as barbarian not being villainous. Not us like readers of this book particularly, but it's in culture. Yeah. We seem to be separated from the truce of what Genghis Khan actually did as a really awful, awful... Yes. ...rain of terror. Whereas we... That's very true.

Yes. I don't have a point with that. That's just something I've thought about occasionally. And the barbarian whores. I wonder if it's just because they're chaos rather than order. Not like Genghis Khan was, but I wonder if the barbarians here because it's not planned violence. It doesn't seem as bad. Yeah, I think it's also...

It's the thing I pointed out last week. Cohen is written to be an incredibly charismatic character. So you find yourself wanting to... And the whore don't written to be sympathetic characters. We're brought in as well, yeah. They're written to be sympathetic as much as, you know, you've got all the jokes about raping and things. Yeah, at least they stopped by part three.

Yeah, which did also make me laugh at the line, why don't we all invite them to dinner and masculine them or when they're drunk? You heard the man, there's 700,000 of them. I'll have to be something simple with past to them. That made me laugh. Sounds like you. I was going to say, no, I saw myself in that scene. Obviously not the poisoning part, but I will find myself going.

Oh, we're going to have 700,000, yes, are we? All right, fine. I guess I won't make that souffle. But I will still be determined to feed them. And I'll just think of something simple with past. That's fine, yeah. Waitrose will have 700,000 tomatoes. Anyway, so the last of the horde that we're going to talk about for now is teacher. Oh, right.

But we've heard he died. He was so good. He was so well written through this whole bit, the bit where Cohen's about to surrender and teach. He's almost in tears. And then he realises that Cohen's not about surrender. He's about to tell Lord Hong to surrender. And it says, teach got the slow, mad grin on his face.

And then he flies into battle and his hair streaming behind him. And he's all great. And then he gets another off-screen death almost, doesn't he? Yes, it's not quite off-screen, but it's incidental. Yeah, yeah. And I think at this point, it's happened enough times. It does seem to be something Cratchit's doing on purpose. He's not giving people these glorious deaths because that's not how it works.

No. Yeah, he's dead in war or horrible and incidental most of the time. It's particularly upsetting because it feels like he's going to get to be one of the winners as well. Like he's already fought. And the bit where he decides to fight and he's sort of like, I very much doubt I'll survive if you lose. And it seems like you heroes get a better class of heaven.

And I suppose you probably get a better class of life too. Yes. I like that he is taken away by a valkyrie. Yeah, I was going to say at least he does get a I'm going to say painless death because it sounds like it must have been pretty instant. Well, he doesn't notice that he's died. Yeah, quite. Yes.

He doesn't notice that he died and he's become enough of a warrior that he gets his afterlife teaching barbarians how to use a knife and fork. Yes. It seems like that's what he wants. So. And he gets to have a nice... To him. But this is also what I mean about the casual death not really happening.

Like when you have a big death, like when you have a character die, you have them have an interaction with death and you get to sort of see them process it, not for every character that dies. No, because there were a lot of deaths. There were a lot of deaths. Well, yeah, I mean, there's like lots of people died in the battle, but there's something about the acknowledged character and you know... Too far ahead, but I don't think we've got a...

He was off screen entirely though, wasn't he? No, but I did actually that kind of brings us on to talking about Hong. Oh, yeah. I really liked that. Well, obviously, I don't think that Hong is a good character. Well, yeah. Hong is very well-wisher. Really?

No, I don't think so, because I was about to call you off being problematically in favour of a weird tyranny adjacent... Not tyranny adjacent. Can you be a tyrant if you're not in charge? He does seem to be a tyrant, doesn't he? He's a tyrant. Yeah, a weird tyrant. I like the origami execution order moment of him going,

well, I said I wouldn't write down or say any execution order. Did you like that? I found that really annoying. I was like, oh, God, I'd kick him in the shins. I wanted to kick him in the shins. It's like having a little sibling who always does that kind of shit. It's like, I didn't turn on you, I just wrote it down. See, this is where we come at things from different angles.

You were an older sibling, I was a younger sibling. I think it's partly the line as he's having the conversation and it describes him as essaying a tax increase. Yes, no, that was very good. That's very good. Yeah, I don't like it as in it's a clever idea of his. I like it as in it's a very well-written scene for him to be very subtly folding throughout

and at the end there's just a model of a man with no head. Yeah, yeah. Yes, that would be another good on-screen one, wouldn't it? That would be a very good on-screen moment that you'd have to figure out the origami and then make sure the actor could do it. Yes. I take it you enjoyed all the description

of his anger finally bursting through the dam. That's very up your alley. That was very good. I very much enjoyed it. I didn't actually note the quote down now, but... It was, no, I didn't either, but it was something like the anger had broken through the dam and as always happens it engulfed countries, something like that.

Yeah, there were some very good moments. I like it when you have a character like that finally lose their shit. Because you can tell that's what they're written for from the very first time they're introduced as being incredibly calm in the face of murder. Yeah. So it's always bound to happen.

It's always satisfying. I think the only character so far at least, we've definitely not seen that happen with his veterinary. I also liked that the rest of the lords kind of didn't turn against him exactly, but Lord Hong had gone so far past the pale that the rest of the lords who were terrified of him were like, no, I'm not scared of doing this.

I'm ashamed this is a shameful thing to be doing. Yeah. I mean, yeah, even the rest of the lords got a bit of character development, which is clever, I thought. Yeah, I'm glad that those moments are in there. I also like the one last reminder, because I don't think Hong's weird obsession

without Maupok really is developed enough in the book. No, yeah, you feel like there were some other scenes that perhaps it had to edit out or something. I feel like you could have cut what waits to about three pages of him having that obsession, and it wouldn't change the story at all. No, I suppose... No, yeah.

Saying that, I like the outfit scene. I think the one thing it does for his character is show that he's, for all of his intelligence, he's really delusional, like the moment he tries on the Maupok nobleman outfit, and is imagining himself seen as a great ruler as he walks through the city. And of course, what would actually happen is,

he's a knob, Eve half a brick at him. Yeah, I'm not sure if it's even delusional or just really ignorant about Ang Maupok. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a better... If he walks through his own culture dressed in finery, well, maybe no, probably slightly delusional, because he probably imagines the peasants are thinking, oh, the great Lord comes through,

when in reality they are thinking their equivalent of, God, I wish I could Eve half a brick at him. Yeah, or I'd like a longer piece of string. I would like a longer piece of string, and maybe half a brick. That's all I want in my life. How long is a piece of string? How far can we Eve half a brick?

The great philosophical questions of our time. All right, let's start with the accent now. What? Why? If I'm allowed to do shitty, basic accents, if all of the adaptations are... Okay, no, you are. It's just if you keep going, I'll start singing, Chim Chimini, Chim Chimini, Chim Chimini. Oh, no, no, please don't do that.

I can make anything happen. Blow me a kiss, and I'm just lucky too. Okay, brief side note. Brief side note, you know, there was that Mary Poppins remake. They built like the whole Cherry Tree lane set, and there's a video somewhere of Dick Van Dyke being walked through it, and he starts singing the song from the original film as he walks through it, and I'll see if I can find the video and then get in the show notes,

because it's hot, warming. Anyway, two flower. Yep, sorry, I'm just writing down Mary Poppins video, so we don't forget to put it in there. Yes, two flower. Two flower gets some character development, I think. He gets some character development, he gets some things to do. He gets some things to do,

and I think he gets quite a good resolution. Yes, I think so too. I'd forgotten he had, honestly. If you'd asked me before I reread this, what happens to two flower in the end, I'd be like, goes home, probably. Yeah, I wasn't, like I said, I've only really read this one once before, and I kind of forgot that two flower got a conclusion. I think I remembered him having daughters.

Yes, yeah, I remember them being his daughters, but I like that he, the polite, I think I would like to fight you. I love the Barbarians encouraging him as well, and throwing him a sword, but there's a very sweet moment when him and Rincewind are walking back towards the city together after he sort of got Rincewind out of the Magigama, and Rincewind sort of says, I'm sorry to hear about your wife, and he says, you know, things happen in war, I have two beautiful daughters. Rincewind opened his mouth to say something,

but two flowers, bright brittle smile, froze the words in his throat. And there's just that reminder at this point in the book, because we haven't had it since closer to the middle of what two flower went through, is enough to settle that in your brain for a few pages later when we get him confronting Lord Hong. And it's literally just a few lines, but it's incredibly good writing, and I like his decision of someone needs to stand up to him, whatever happens, stand up to Hong, whatever happens to them afterwards.

And it doesn't need to be him. He knows full well in that situation with the horde around, and Coen's got his sword, he could do nothing, and Hong will end up dead in the next five minutes, because Coen is there with the sword. But yes, he's angry, he's angry at Lord Hong, and would like to... Confront it now, please. Would like to fight him, please.

Oh, a little two flower, bless you. But happy ending for him, and he gets to be Grand Vizier now, and I think he'll be a very good Grand Vizier. Yes, I'm still not really sure what the job entails. I think it's like Prime Minister. It's like Affirations Manager, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Like F and B Manager.

Yeah, yeah, probably explains what most of them are pricks. Sorry, any F and B managers we have. I had a series of bad ones in my brief hospitality career. I was a chef for a decade, I don't think I need to justify myself there. So locations, we've got Czechosyl. Yes. I know it sounds like I'm trying to sound really clever,

by calling it Czechosyl, but honestly, it's just I realised the other day that I didn't make a Czechosgon reference throughout the entire Men at Arms episodes, and so I feel like I need to make up for it. But yeah, no, there was a hill mentioned, and then the hill was accidentally penetrated. Sorry.

Darwin. Like it's hot, my brain's melted. I'm pretty much just here for the deck jokes now. So yes, it's the hill with the iron pagoda. That's mysterious around. What's the phrase, a drumlin, which I didn't look up, but I'm assuming it's some sort of geological term. Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know if we've got any geologists listeners, but or geography listeners. Do we have any geography listeners? Well, teach was a geography, I think. I feel like there's definitely a word missing from that, but I like the way the hill is brought up as something people are a little bit curious. An elongated hill in the shape of an inverted spoon

or half-buried egg, formed by glacial ice, acting on london lying, unconsolidated till or grandmarine. Right, it says the hill. Yes, hill. Cool, it's all weird. But a particularly little, like, ridgy mound hill, so. Yes, but yes, foreshadowed very well. And built up too, very well.

And then speaking. Fallen into, very well. Fallen into, very well. Well done, rinsewind. Good at falling. Well done, that mammal. Speaking of rinsewind and mammals. X, X, X, X is now.

Forex. Forex and missing kangaroo and plus one rinsewind. Yeah, so again, foreshadowing. We're obviously setting up for a future book. I'm not going to say anything detailed, because that would be a spoiler, and we're spoiler-light. Yeah, I mean, rinsewind's now in Australia. Yeah.

It's the end of this book, so, yeah. The end of this book is, rinsewind is in the discworld equivalent of Australia. But I like, it's foreshadowed much earlier, where the hoarder's starting to think about running away, and Caleb says, you know, I've never been to Forex. I often wonder what it's like. Beavers with beaks and giant rats,

that giant rats with long tails that hop around the place and boxes with one another. That's pretty much it. But I like that it's set up there before ending up there at the end of the book. Yeah, yeah, so you know, there is such a place. So that's nicely and cleverly done. And then, yeah, those are the only

really notable locations I had. Yeah, so we haven't really gone anywhere. Everything happened around the hill, or? The plains. The palace kind of, but that wasn't, that was only incidental, so yeah. The plains before the city. Now we mean in front of the city.

Little bits we liked. Little bits we liked. Sumo bit I thought was interesting, because it gave me an excuse to look up some stuff around Sumo wrestlers. Yeah, I thought, I wasn't, I didn't love it. I didn't like portraying them as like, animal level intelligence and.

Yeah, I think little bits we liked is a bit of a misnomer for this one. Little bits you found interesting. Yeah, yeah, okay. Maybe I should rename this section. Little things not quite worth a talking point. Things not quite, quite worth, yeah. Jesus.

Tell me about Sumo wrestling to her. So yeah, the way they're described is a bit horrific. There's animalistic intelligence and. Not a fan of that. The way the size is described is not very pleasant. But actual Sumo wrestling is quite interesting. The sizes, there are size and like minimum height and weight requirements for becoming a Sumo wrestler.

Yeah. Which I think at the moment it's around 5 foot 7 for height. It's the minimum height. And around, I think something like 150 pounds is the minimum weight. Oh, so that's not actually very. No, that's to begin the training. Obviously you will. If I put on 10 pounds, I could do that.

Yeah, that's to begin the training. Obviously then a lot of muscle is gained through training. It is a lot of muscle. Yeah, and a lot of food, isn't it? Rice, fish, one of the main components of the diet, isn't it? But yeah, it's like insane amount of protein. Insane amounts of protein. It's really, really rigorous.

So there's a lot of tradition around it that is really stuck to today. So when you become a Sumo wrestler, you live full time in a training dormitory called a heia. Heia. You have to have been a professional too, so then become a trainer. Okay.

And the wrestlers that live in the dormitories, literally everything is dictated. Your food, your clothing, when you're awake, when you're asleep, when you're training. All right, I'll get that for a game of soldiers. When you commit to becoming a Sumo wrestler, it is a full term, long term lifestyle. It's like joining the army, isn't it?

Yeah, so it's very, very old. It's fan centuries. The earliest sort of recorded writing about it is back in 712 AD. Oh, wow. Yeah, there's earlier paintings and things depicting something that looks like Sumo wrestlers, and it looks like it actually came from some ritualistic prayer and dancing connected to the harvest.

Oh, I know everything's connected to the harvest to go back far enough, isn't it? Yeah. You and your furrows. Me and my furrows. Your ceremonial furrows. Just one. You know what I'm saying?

Joanna and her ceremonial furrows, honestly. Joanna's ceremonial furrows. Hagen, that's what they don't call me. Sorry, I'm interrupting your quite interesting talk to talk nonsense as usual. No, honestly, I didn't have much else to say about it. I just found it interesting that it does go back that long that so much tradition is still stuck to,

things like purifying the ring with salt is an incredibly old tradition that's still done today. I know they find it hard to get new recruits at the moment, new entries in Japanese ones, because I believe Sumo wrestling, like the world stage, is now dominated by non-Japanese athletes. There was some major controversy a few years ago that I won't go into a massive detail,

but I'll try and link to a couple of good articles on it, partly to do with the requirements for joining. Including, this is quite a while back now, but there was one guy who was off the minimum height requirement and had surgery to basically increase his height by having sort of a lump added onto his skull. Oh, no. Yeah.

This is the thing. If you decide you really want to do it, it's this huge lifestyle commitment, and it means a lot to do it. Like, Sumo wrestlers are really well-respected, like outside of the wrestling community, as well as within the wrestling community. I could type so with all that, isn't it?

Yeah. There are now things saying, you know, no one who's surgically enhanced themselves is allowed to join. Right. To try and put pay to that. So it's having a bit of a resurgence after some controversy a while ago,

and it is becoming more popular, especially in Japan again. Good, I think. My first read about the food aspect of it in Anthony Bourdain's book, A Cook's Tour, Oh, okay. which was based on the first TV series he did, also called A Cook's Tour back in,

I want to say in the 90s. I haven't seen much of the TV series. It's really hard to find out, so I haven't linked to it in the show notes, but you can find stuff from his visit to Japan on YouTube. But I have linked to the book in the show notes. It's a really, really good book. I mean, I love Anthony Bourdain's writing in general,

but that one in particular, he has a really nice way of traveling around eating the food and writing about it that isn't weird and colonial. Good. He's very like, this is what it is, and it fascinates, it's fascinating,

and it's a privilege to be able to take part in it. Yeah. Forgive me, I've not read a lot of travel cookbooks. Are there glaring examples of ones that are kind of weird and colonial about it, or is it just more of a trend? It's more of a trend, especially with the TV series and stuff about it.

Oh, sure. Yeah, if you watch a travel TV series and it's a white person, they're actually discovering a place for the first time. Yes, I know the thought. But I highly recommend A Cook's Tour for the bit he writes about. He gets to go in and hang out in a heiya

and eat with the sumo wrestlers and cannot. I will never not get an outcast song in my head when you say that word, but okay. I'm sorry if I'm pronouncing it wrong as well. So yeah, so he goes and eats with the sumo wrestlers and sees how much it is,

and discovers he actually can't. Yeah, I'll bet. Yeah. I've seen some short clips somewhere of it, and it's just an insane amount of food. It's completely ridiculous. I mean, it makes sense when you are working out that much every day

and intentionally trying to build that much muscle. I guess. God, that must hurt to start with, right? Yeah, it must do. I feel like it's built up too. I don't think you show up on your first day. Good luck. Eat all of this, and then good luck sleeping ever.

Oh, yeah. Anyway, yeah. So I highly recommend it. Yeah, no, I listened to some quite interesting stuff about sumo ages ago. But I hadn't heard any of what you just said, actually. So clearly there is a lot to be learned about it. Oh yeah, I could have done like a whole thing there.

It's probably not going to be a rabbit hole for me because my rabbit hole list is piling up. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of other little things that interested me, the reference to the willow pattern plate. Oh, yeah. This is the potter getting prevented that I mentioned earlier. Just potter being prevented by a perambulating parade of...

Help me out here. Postulates. Yes, brother. They go running, all of his paints get trashed, and the plate he's painting gets stepped on. So he finds himself with nothing but blue. I'll show them. Jade found being pursued over a bridge

by a man waving his arms and screaming, get out of the way, followed by a man with prod, three guards, five laundry men, the wrestler unable to stop. So this actual tradition, this is obviously a reference to those traditional schools like the blue willow plate or the willow pattern plate.

Yeah, just bringing one up for me to look at as we talk. Yes, I will, again, links and show notes. So this tradition of blue and white porcelain traces back at least to the Tang dynasty became big around the 14th century, and there's some Islamic influence from it. Kind of back and forth cultural exchange. We make up China like this,

so we're going to start making it like this, so we're painting it like this, and now we're painting it like this. But it started becoming popular in the UK sort of 16th century as trade. 16th century? Yeah, yeah. Wow, okay.

Yeah, yeah. The traditional blue willow plate, the sort of the bridge, the decorations around the outside, there's lots of different versions of it, but it tends to be this all based around a singular image and or variations on that image was actually invented in the UK.

Around the 18th century. The Victorians. Victorians. The design was very much influenced by this traditional blue and white Chinese pottery. Yeah, because like there's a lot of really old ones like plants on and that, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

So that style of design existed for a very, very, very long time, but that kind of traditional plate with that central image was originally a British thing, but it was the design was stamped on the pottery. So then that design started making its way back to China where it's sort of being recreated, but with the traditional hand painting methods.

Huh, sorry. Please forgive me your name. It's later than we usually record lessons. I thought I was just being very dull where it came to that. No, no. It's, I find porcelain very relaxing, that's all. Yes, it's.

It sounds like I'm making a falling asleep on the toilet, Joe, doesn't it? But yes, so I enjoyed that little bit of research because I always assumed that was a very old traditional Chinese design and not something the Victorians nicked ripped off and then went back to China and was done better. Yeah.

Sorry, I'm just looking at the Wikipedia page now. So I'm looking at the really early ones and they're just that all of the floral and ornamental patterns. And yeah, so in my head, the willow and the bridge would have been there, but it is not. No. Look at that.

Yeah. But anyway, very cool, very cool. More of that I will read about. What is the structure? I will ignore. All right, Yoda. What like little bit did you have? More rinse wind, more rinse wind and his adventures overland.

I liked when he is basically arguing with the narrative. He's always got, he's kind of arguing with lady luck overhead and fate. But I feel like in a very real way, it's Pratchett writing rinse when arguing with him with the, what he needed now was a cave or a handy. He paused. Oh, no.

No, no, no. You don't catch me like that. We're going to a handy cave and there'll be a little door and we drag back into events, right? No, stay out in the open. That's the style. And oh, that would be a good place to, no, not going in that pagoda.

Nope. And yeah, eventually, of course, he just fall in anyway. And then later on when two flowers starts telling him that he can be our chancellor and make his own university and he's going, no, it's going to happen. So he's going to come out of the sky. Yeah, just wait, wait. It's going to something is about to happen to me.

And it's a little long with the knife in the public square. Poor rinse wind, poor rinse wind. Well, let's hope he has a lovely time after he gets knocked out. Then we got, I liked just, this is just a little bit alike for once. I just liked the short description of the red army rising. Says, there were screams in the ranks as the soldiers looked down at the moving dirt under their boots, tried to run on a surface that were just shifting soil and disappeared in the rising cloud of dust.

The ground caved in. Then it caved out again. A stricken soldier's climbed up for another to escape because rising gently through the turmoil was the soil in human shape. It's like a proper little horror movie, natural disaster. Everything description. I thought it was very good. It's a brilliant mental image.

I really enjoy that bit. It's like landslide-y kind of, yeah. We've all seen videos of those horrible natural disasters. We can imagine it weirdly even though it's a... I don't know if we can imagine it. We don't all spend as much time on the catastrophe subreddit as you. All right, yeah. But you've watched the news in your time.

Yes, all right, fine. We've got a really good series on plane crashes. This is a guy. Reddit is called Admiral Cloudberg. It writes up really detailed, but like sensitively done and but engagingly written accounts of plane crashes. Nice. Yeah.

Have a look at that. I'll link to that if that seems appropriate at the time. Cool. Well, I'm not so dead. Anyway, should we go on to the biggest stuff? Talking points. Let's start with mine. I'm going to be horribly critical.

Okay, be negative. Give me criticism. I'm not going to criticize you. Dial it up to 70 percent. I couldn't criticize you. You're precious. Oh, no, no, no. Not me, of course.

Not me. I didn't write this. I was three years old. But once, this is not my fault. Excellent. Okay, yeah. So going into this book, it wasn't one of my favorites. I was looking forward to it because where I've gone into ones

that I haven't liked as much before, I've ended up liking them. The possible exception of Eric. Yeah, right. Fair. Okay. So this is the thing. So the Rincewind books were never my favorite.

And we'd like fantastic and color of magic. I really came around to Rincewind, but then I still didn't really enjoy sorcery. And I still didn't really enjoy Eric. I would agree. They are not his finest works. They're not. And to be fair to them, in the case of sorcery,

he didn't really want to write that one. And in the case of Eric, I read it to prep and did the episode when I literally just moved house. So I maybe wasn't in the best mood when I did Eric. Yeah. Also, it's like meant to be kind of a graphic thing as well as a novel thing.

And yeah, it didn't fit the concept as well. But yeah. Yeah. Trying to talk about a visual medium on a podcast is really, really our strong point. Yeah. I enjoyed something. As we proof time and time again.

But so I went into this intending to like it, but I still found myself not really enjoying it as far as Discworld books go. OK. And I think part of the issue is the central thesis or lack thereof. And that's a really wanky way to describe it. But so when I've gone into quite a lot...

What's the point would be the Angkor-Porkian way of saying it? Exactly. What's the point? When you go into a lot of the other books, there is some big thing to hinge on. And I'm more aware of it now we do the podcast because I try and build up to talking about that big thing and the final episode of it.

So like with which is abroad talking about the power of stories, with Reeve Mann talking about grief, and with soul music talking about how fun it is to read a parody of someone who really loves something. A cross because practice didn't give you an opportunity for a meaningful speech. Yeah. OK.

Well, no, but just so it feels a bit like in this one, it doesn't have that central thing to kind of grab onto. And it has little things. You have rinse and cynicism about what's going to happen. And then it being on the mind by the fact that Brintsman somewhat brings about the victory by being the one who finds the Characotta soldiers. And this idea of, you know, they're fighting for you,

the water buffalo holder who isn't really aware teaches. Fucking dog again. Sorry. Come on. Hi. You can sleep in here. You can have a seat. Sorry.

Start from little bits if we could. Yeah. So it has all of these little ideas to start grabbing onto. You have Brintsman's cynicism about what's going to happen, and that being undermined by the fact that he kind of brings about the victory at the end. You have this idea of they're fighting for you with the water buffalo holder.

And you have teachers sort of in passion speech that there's got to be better ways than fighting before eventually giving in and embracing his barbarian side. And you have this... I wonder if everyone's point being undermined was the point in some way. Possibly, yeah. And you have this brilliant point that starts coming up

in the last few minutes of Twoflower, you know, confronting Hong despite the fact Hong doesn't know he killed Twoflower's wife. It wasn't really him. It was his soldiers. You have this idea with the water buffalo. You have this idea of the little people not being listened to and that eventually being something of a downfall.

Yeah, the kind of detachment of both the Red Army and the people of the Red Army and of the ruling class. Yeah. Kind of fighting... We talked about it a bit last week, didn't we? Kind of fighting for the people as a concept, not as a reality.

Exactly. So I feel like it has those little ideas there, but it doesn't have anything big enough to then kind of grab onto and run away with when you come out of the book. And I feel like it loses something for that compared to a lot of the other books. What you were saying about Lord Hong's kind of dressing up

as an Angleporkian gentleman not being developed, I feel like it's maybe a bit more of this and that it feels like there's some connective tissue that either got cut or didn't get brilliant. Makes the final... Yeah. Because I enjoyed... I did enjoy the points.

But I agree that they didn't join up. Exactly. If those ideas weren't there in the first place, that would be one thing. It's the fact that it starts all of those little ideas and it doesn't finish them off. And I think for me, that affects my enjoyment of it because it's not what I've come to expect

from reading and enjoying a Pratchett book. Yeah, it does kind of end with a... Huh. Yeah, it ends with a thud, not a crash. Yes. As we're talking about the book as a whole, did you find it funny? Were there many laugh out loud moments for you?

Yes, but mostly near the beginning with the wizards. Yeah. The wizards always make me laugh out loud. The wizards and maybe some of the barbarian dialogue. Yeah, the wizards are a really good vehicle for comedy. The barbarian dialogue, like I said earlier, the little line about pasta. I always get a few dry chuckles from Rincewind's cynicism

just because I agree with him on most of it. But... I enjoy Rincewind as a character a lot more now than I used to. Yeah. It's just, I don't think this is ever going to become one of the up-there books for me. I feel like it's just missing something

that I enjoy from a Pratchett book. That's fair. I think some of the themes that were unresolved, we will get to revisit later, so that's something. Well, yeah, this is the thing. I think he kind of... There's some stuff that starts here that I think he's going to do better later.

Yeah, like with pyramids and small gods, we already saw like... Yeah. Even though that was very blatant and not that long between them, wasn't it? It's like, I like this theme. Let's do it again. Bigger. Yes, exactly.

With camels. No, wait, no. Less camels. More torches. Less camels. There were still camels in small gods. So anyway, yeah, so that was my kind of trying to work out why I didn't enjoy the book.

Yeah, I did enjoy the book and I definitely get what you're saying. It's, I think for me, just I enjoy the Rincewind's more than you do. I found this one very easy to get. I found it much easier to get through than soul music. Yeah. Partly because I enjoy the kind of historical references

more than I enjoy like the musical references and things. Yeah, that's fair. And but just because I love, I like reading Rincewind. So, but yeah, I agree that there's not as much of a kind of... You don't go away thinking in a new way about any of this stuff. Yeah. And I think it just, it is not one which might be expecting a bit much from a comedy.

True, but it's not. I don't think it's expecting much from a Discworld book, especially now we're into that really good stage of it. It's just not one that sits with me. Yes, but it's, yes, maybe it's below the average curve. Yeah. If we're like on the Discworlds going, whoop, we're just a little bit below that line going up.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that was nice. What a great format to put in an audio. I feel like you established it perfectly with the whoop. Whoop. Whoop. Mathematical term for.

Right. Aftermaths. History. Yes. And then lunchtime. I did much better at that GCSE, surprising nobody. I've just had a thought that last week we said we'd say something about the in and out geography.

Do you remember the narrative thing going in and then coming out again? And I said, oh, let's see if I can bring that up again next week. I just, I lost my chance in the little bits we liked. One of the things I said was I liked the earth caving in and then going out again. Well, we can just shove this bit. So listeners, can you pretend, obviously I'm not going to bother editing it. Can you just pretend? I said that earlier, like do me a solid cheers.

Awesome. Anyway, history. History. Now we've done maths and geography. My little historical parallel for today, because obviously there are many throughout, so I just picked the kind of big dramatic one. I'd say the one that everybody would be able to put their finger on would be the terracotta army, i.e. the red army here, the underground one.

And ties in was one sun mirror, the first emperor of the Agatian empire, who I think is a parallel to round world first emperor of a unified China. And I'm very sorry for pronouncing this wrong at once, probably. Qin Shi Huang, who was the founder of the Qin dynasty and the first empire of, the first empire, the first, yeah, the first emperor, the first Chinese emperor. And presumably the inspiration for one sun mirror. And therefore I thought maybe I didn't, I didn't see this anywhere else. So I might be stretching a bit, perhaps a little word play, because Qin, obviously,

being the, his name. And then, but she, it means first. Right. So this is like his emperor name. So she means first and Huang Ti means emperor. And that taken apart means Huang is splendid or shining, kind of like sun-like maybe. And then Ti is like the name of the high god of the, the Shang people who were these people. And then I thought maybe, maybe if it's like fast, shining, first, splendid, whatever.

And then mirror, it could be like a mirror of the real life. So maybe one sun mirror is a little play on it. But I might be stretching because I couldn't find the, because I spotted like, oh, that means one. What does that mean? Oh, that means sun. Could this mean mirror in any way? And it can't, but maybe it's just because it's a parallel.

Let's give Prattia the credit. It's not like you can argue with us. Yeah, let's say I'm a bone on this one. I expect, I expect we'll, we'll be a bit mean to a bit of a minute. So give him this pretend link. Anyway, this emperor was quite interesting in a few ways. He, towards the end of his life and reign, he became like stereotypical uber paranoid, fearing death.

Is it paranoid if you've had several assassination attempts? But anyway, I feel like at that point it's justified. He definitely feared death more than most and spent a lot of his energy, his time, his money and other people's energy and lives trying to find the elixir of life in various forms. So he had, sorry, dear, you're right there. Sorry, baby. You're okay.

See ya. Thank you. The truck went past. I'm sorry. Sorry. He had alchemists on his team who, many of whom he killed. He had various scientists of the age and he, one of the things he tried and which probably kind of sped his exit off of the earth was ingesting mercury, which I think has happened

a few times in history, like from various places, various time periods. Because like, mercury looks like it should be the elixir of life, doesn't it? I get it. Like, you want to eat that. You see that? You're like, yes, get that in me. That will make me live forever. Want to lick the magic goo.

Yeah, exactly. We need to get that guy from TikTok who does the songs about forbidden foods kind of thing to think about mercury. Oh yeah, that sounds great. Remind me to write a parody. Anyway. Yeah. Outside of China, he's probably the most famous for his burial place, which is where the terracotta

army is. It was, his mausoleum is like, modeled on the capital city of his time. So it's divided into inner and outer cities. It's like several kilometers in circumference. It was built by thousands of men, possibly tens or hundreds of thousands, depending on which source you believe, and almost certainly including a lot of slaves. Uh, he kind of planned it all within his lifetime. It's much like the pyramids and kind of Egyptian stuff.

It was like very important to him. Yeah. And yes, as mirrored in this book, he did have with him a terracotta army. Um, so this was kind of unearthed at first by some farmers, some Chinese farmers, and then excavated pits and starts by Chinese and international archaeologists. Last estimates I could find was that, because they've not all been excavated because partly because we don't really have the technology to preserve them. Yeah.

So if you think about the ones that we can see on like pictures and that most of them are just like stone, aren't they? They look like clay. But like for a minute or two after they're dug up, they look perfectly beautifully painted. And like some of them have this color called Han purple, which is very rich, rare purple pigment. I mean, you know, it's like the purple used to be super difficult to make. But like literally within like four minutes, I think it was, of them being in the air, this flakes off.

Like, can you imagine being the archaeologist watching that like? Shouldn't have got that one out. Ah, but like they've got quite a few out anyway. Yeah. But anyway, from the estimates, so I'm guessing maybe they've ultrasound at the ground. There are like more than 8,000 soldiers, more than 500 horses and like some chariots as well. Well, this is the space archaeology thing I was talking to you about. This is the kind of stuff they do where they'll image the ground from satellites in orbit.

Yes. I can't remember if we talked about that on the podcast or. I think we did. I think we did. Yeah. And cool. Yeah. Sorry, that was a diversion.

No, that's cool. That's something to look at later. Anyway, but there are some non-military figures in there as well, by the way. They're like various officials and acrobats and musicians and things. So he was going with a full cohort. Yeah. And also, it looks like they were made on like some kind of assembly line, which is very exciting for how long ago this was.

Like, so they were the bases of them, like the limbs and everything. And they're like the basic heads, I think, were made in molds. Oh, cool. And then so there were like 10 different head molds, but then artists added features on afterwards. So all of them are unique. Wow. Yeah, no, it's like an insane amount of work and artistry and craftsmanship.

And it's all so long ago. It's like I was saying last week about the, you forget that this, these libraries that were burnt down were made of that, like all the books were bamboo. This was pre-paper. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, I'm getting excited. And I forgot my point.

No, I think that was my point. Yeah, this is my whole point. This is a cool bit of history that's parallel to. There we go. This is a bit of history. So yeah, so obviously imperialism bad, but we're not... Obviously imperialism bad, but... Obviously.

I'm not an imperialist, but when I become a massive emperor... Right. So imperialism bad right up until you're an imperialist at the top. Because the way you do it, it'll be good. Exactly. So I'm going to get an empire. I'm going to become very well known for trying to find the elixir of life. And then when I'm going to die, I'm going to have an absolutely massive tomb.

Okay. But then I'm going to make sure my body's not left in it. So then when they excavate it, like a century later, they'll be like, oh my God, she figured it out. You have to make us... You have to make it so like it looks like you got up though. Like duvet flung bag. Do you have duvets in tombs, is that a thing?

I don't think I do. Shroud. Yeah, shroud. Yeah. Shroud flung bag. Cup of coffee, pajamas. Fantastic. Perfect.

Yeah. Oh, I forgot to say. Actually speaking of the tomb bit, so the tomb of this hasn't been excavated. I think for similar reasons with like the not ruining things. But there I think is some like, I'm not sure if it's mythology or like some just disputed thought sources or what, but they're like he was buried in the middle of or with a moat of Lake of Mercury kind of thing, which doesn't sound reasonable. But there is definitely like high concentration of mercury above where he's buried.

Yeah. And it's possible that it's just like pollution, like modern pollution, but it does seem like oddly concentrated where it should be. So maybe if we'll find out one day that there's like a river of mercury down there, which will be, I guess, horrible and cool. Yeah, that's awesome. I like it. So do you want a river of mercury in your tomb is what I'm asking?

Yes, please. Cool. Sweet. Thank you. I'm assuming you're organising this. Oh yeah, no, absolutely. Obviously I'm going to be in charge of anything that involves shenanigans and the elixir of life.

And my death. Well, yeah, this is only if I live here, of course. Well, considering we're both actually going to live forever, we're fine. Yeah, exactly. This is all academic. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, do you have another talking, we both have another talking point, don't we?

It's what we've been promising for two weeks. Shall we discuss? Now we have to do it. Shall we discuss the big problematic elephant in the room? Oh, don't bring elephants into this. For once elephants aren't part of this there. Okay, so to come back to the question we started asking back in the first episode on this, which is can we and should we take a cultural, I say we, can Terry Bradshaw and should Terry Bradshaw?

Could he, should he, would he? Take a rich cultural history like this full of all sorts of violence and death and use it for parody and entertainment. I like calling. Like obviously it is the thing is. I've asked that in such a loaded way as well. Yeah. Any terms you use to describe like this always feels like less significant than it should.

Calling thousands of years of history like a rich cultural history almost seems patronizing, doesn't it? But I don't know how I, I don't know how I put it, yeah. I don't know how to word it for that question. Anyway, I'm going to say yes, but done differently. What do you think? Yeah, I'm going with like the really, really short no nuance answer is okay, probably not, but the bigger answer is it does work.

It works in this, or that aspect of it works in this book. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I don't think there's anything wrong with making fun of a tyrannical regime in the past just because it's not yours. No. Like I don't think we're any more or less connected to 10,000 years ago in whichever continent. Does that make sense?

Like. Yeah. I think. No, that's not fair because even back then like there is. Cultural, whatever's, but yeah, I feel like shitty tyrannical behavior is shitty tyrannical behavior in a matter of the country. Yeah. And I don't, I don't think you can sit, that was very, very stumbling.

It was good stuff. I like that. I think the book works set where it's set and how it's set. That aspect of it is fine, but that's not to say it's not a problematic book. Yeah. I think both of us kind of honed in on the fact that the overarching stuff is surprisingly well done, but then it's just needlessly peppered with these stupid little cultural jokes. And, and that sounds so silly talking about a Pratchett, because obviously it's always

peppered with stupid little jokes, but it's, it feels stupid little almost racist jokes. Yeah. I think that's the problem with it is you can do the big thing, but then look at the little things you're doing next to it. Yeah, they do. Yeah. They matter. They do matter.

They help frame the rest of it. And these were the kind of the bullet points I made about why this specifically feels more problematic than a lot of other Discworld books, which do a similar thing and take on another culture. Okay. So yeah, like compared to, let's say pyramids, which does ancient Egypt. But I think you say it's like, I think with pyramids, it's looking at the myth rather than the history history and where it

looks at the history. It's looking at, again, the kind of tyrannical aspects and looking at how the history interacted with the religion. Yes. And it's- And a lot of it is speculation due to the fact we just don't have a lot of records from then, isn't it? So it's not like we're-

Yeah. And it's looking- It's not like we're altering a known past. It's a- Yeah. And it's looking at how those ideas and beliefs around things like the big burial chambers, how that actually then logically affects a kingdom that exists at the same time as Ankh Morporg, because the whole idea of jelly baby is that it's stuck in the past compared to

where everything else has moved on to. Yeah. And then if you look at something like where he writes about clatch in sorcery, again, it's looking at a particular area. It's kind of playing on the Middle East, but it's looking at the mythology. It's looking at Aladdin and the genie. And what's- Korea, so it's a Kubla-

Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, honestly, in real life now, I think as rich as creosote instead of whatever it's meant to be. Creosos. Yeah, thank you, well done. And which is abroad, you know?

Which is abroad looks at the way colonialism happened in New Orleans, but it looks at it from the perspective of it's bad. Let's stop that. Like, it's very much the bad guy doing the colonialism. Yeah, like a really obvious allegory of like the pristine pretend facade with the chitty swamp next to it. Yeah, ruler on top and the workers loving it in the swamp. Built literally on the backs of, yeah.

Yeah, and the class issues. But then also the food, like one of the grating things I pointed out with this is the cheap jokes about prawn crackers and things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And look at where- That one was the one, honestly, that kind of brought me over to the, I'm not going to sit here and defend this. Yeah, well, and the mishmash of China and Japan is something, you know,

I kept pointing out there's interesting historical things here, but they're Japanese things and you can't just go, oh, there aren't enough Chinese references, everyone will get, so we'll shove some Japanese in. Like, they are two very, very separate countries that do not like being mistaken for each other. And historically, haven't always gotten on very well. This is a fucking-

To put it lightly, yeah. To be delicate. And doing that is quite cheap. Yeah, it is, yeah, yeah. I was going to say like some of it, obviously there is cultural exchange, but obviously some of it is just Japanese. Sumo rest, yeah. Sumo rest, there's the ninjas are Japanese.

Those are like tea ceremonies, but no, yeah, yeah. Ninja, samurai, sumo. Yeah, yeah. Very, very Japanese. Yeah, we didn't even, like, look at the samurai when we were talking about the battle, did we? It's a- But I think that was fine, actually, because they just wore it.

Like, yeah, that wasn't weirdly done, apart from the fact it's Japanese. Yeah. But that's what I mean about saying, like, this is problematic, and it feels more problematic, because I think also they're cheap jokes we've heard growing up hearing. Like, we are, we both like to think of ourselves as culturally sensitive, but we also know a lot of people who really fucking aren't.

And we've grown up with British TV being what it is. We've heard those cheap jokes about Chinese people. We've heard the cheap jokes about Chinese food, people making the funny noises and pretending they're talking Chinese. There's a joke in this where someone's supposed to be shouting some kind of war cry, and it's something like, I tell you a shoe. And that's a specific reference to, in the 1940s, when there were a bunch of World War II propaganda films, obviously,

they couldn't cast Japanese actors to play the scary Japanese guys, because they were mostly in horrible prison camps. So they generally grab whatever Koreans were handy, who didn't speak any Japanese, and say, oh, just make a bunch of random noises, which ended up often being, I tie your shoe, you tie my shoe. Huh. So I guess that wasn't an insensitive joke so much as a reference, but... But still.

Yeah. I don't know, I feel like that one almost is worth putting in there as a... Yeah, I feel like that was intended as a reference. I got that from Anastasia Pratchett. That's not something I knew. I feel like I need to clarify. I should really start looking at that before we do the last episode, at least. But that's what I mean.

I think these cheap, lazy racist jokes are things we've heard so much growing up, and if we've had to hear them and they don't affect us horribly, then think about being Chinese or Japanese and hearing those jokes constantly growing up. And I will say, I think I mentioned in the first episode, that I did find a thread of Pratchett addressing this in his fan forums or vaguely addressing this, and he was very unsympathetic to the idea that an Asian person might find it offensive. Yeah, which is... Was quite grumpy old man about it.

Which is upsetting. And I think it's that especially grumpy old man aspect of, well, I wasn't trying to be offensive, so... Yeah, but it's like, yeah, but you still apologise if you accidentally step on someone's foot. Exactly. Especially if you were accidentally wearing massive, hobnailed shoes and not looking where you were putting them. And that's what I mean, because this comes from someone,

and this is writing from someone A, in a certain position of power and privilege, and B, someone who we know can write very well with nuance. I think the cheap jokes spoil it, because there's a bit of, well, come on dude, we know you can do better and be funnier. Yeah, and I can see where he comes from in the, oh, but you're focusing on this and you're ignoring the cool overarching point I've done. It was like, well, but flipping that, you did a cool overarching point. Why did you feel the need to...

Why did you need to put the cheap jokes in? Yeah, like, there were some really cool funny bits with all the wizards and that, and like... Oh yeah, and there were some hilarious auto-irks moments. More of that kind of stuff, yeah, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. It's very, I hate to say it of the 90s, but it's true, it's very of its time in that that was all over the fucking telly, even as the 90s, isn't it? It was so mainstream. That doesn't make it better.

Yeah, that doesn't make it better, that doesn't make it okay. It makes it really recognizable, yeah. Well, this is the thing, I don't think Pratchett would have written this same book even a decade later. But you can definitely see where the comedy lacks nuance, and again, it's just, it's lazy. Yeah, I agree. There was plenty of room to be funny without doing it, as he shows elsewhere in the book. Anyway.

Anyway, I like, I like the, I like taking the piss out of tyranny and empires and imperialism, no matter whether it's my empire or not, my empire. I'm not taking ownership of the British Empire. Yeah, no, I felt like. Obviously, obviously, I've acknowledged the privilege I gain from it, even so. However. Yes. Oh my god.

Tumblr and Twitter and making fun of them has made it so I can never ever sound earnest again, talking about problematic or privilege or any of those words. I need to really work on another set of words to use. Well, also listeners, especially listeners we've got from China, I'm assuming there might be one or two. If you've got thoughts or takes on this, or think we're totally wrong about it, let us know. Yeah, no, we'd be genuinely, for once, I'm going to say, please, at us, email us. I would like to know somebody's opinion who has a bit more knowledge.

Of a cultural tie to this, yeah. I think more of a stake in the game, yeah. Isn't coming from our massive position of privilege. Anyway, I feel like that's. A position of privilege, whatever. Okay, do you think, do you think we did it? Do you think listeners, do you think we did it? Listeners?

On the basis it's nearly. They didn't like it when I yelled at them. Maybe if I just talked to them like there's no one else in the room, that's okay. On the basis it's nearly 10 o'clock at night, we did it. Yeah, all right. I have got to sleep at some point. Yeah, debatable. Oh, I have a coffee.

See, this is why you have insomnia, Francine. Oh, it's not. It's not. I've had insomnia since I was a child. It's not helping, but it's not why I have it. Okay, fine. But you still shouldn't drink coffee at 10 o'clock at night. Yeah, all right.

But look how happy I am despite the fact we're recording at 10 o'clock at night. Imagine if I hadn't drunk coffee, we've seen the result of that. Yeah, all right, good point. We've heard it. As well as insomnia, do you have an obscure reference for Neal for me? Oh, shit, we've still got another bit to do. Yeah, okay. We've got another bit Francine.

We're going to do an outro. Yeah, I do. It's about swallowing on it. Beautiful. So, on a couple of pages, Rince Wind is referred to as, in one of the funny mistranslations, as great blob of swallow vomit or whatever it is. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I wonder if the word for swallow vomit is actually similar to the word

for wizard because it was made a couple of times. The answer is no. But, fuck me, where's the page I wrote stuff down on? Oh, good, it's here. Right, there was another notebook then for some reason. So, swallow or like, swish, this is also known, vomit saliva stuff. Yeah. Makes, is what makes those edible bird nests.

In fact, I think it's spit not vomit, I should say. It makes those edible bird nests that go in bird nest soup. Cool. So, it's like a delicacy in parts of Asia, as I'm sure you know. I don't know if you know this, but at the moment in parts of China, it goes for $3,000 a pound. Jesus. Yeah, so I feel like it's a compliment being accidentally called that.

I'm not sure if Rince Wind would agree. Yeah, and it's like a, it's a food that's prized for being rich in minerals and protein, and apparently it's quite a delicate flavor. And I don't know, I guess I'd try it. It's vegetarian, isn't it? Yeah. But it's been a food in China for like 400 years old. Oh, cool.

Yeah, pretty cool. Interesting. But I looked up the words just to be sure they weren't similar, and they are not. The word for the characters is Yanuo, something like that. Sorry, guys. And the word for wizard is like Wushi, something like that. So, yeah, not even a bit.

Literally, I think he just wanted to get the little, I don't know, what birds nests are made of. Fair enough. Cool. And now I do too. And with that, I think we've said everything we are capable of saying out loud today. Yeah, I think at this point we're just going to start making faces at each other, so you don't need to be here for this, listeners.

Yeah, I'm just going to grunt at Francine for another half an hour. She loves it. So, that's the end of Interesting Times. We are taking August off. Going on to Boring Times now. Everything's very dull now, no. So, we are officially taking August off-ish. Unofficially, we are going to come back at some point in August with a bonus episode

with our hot takes on our initial watch of The Watch, the UTV series. So, look forward to that possibly with a very special guest, maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. It's a surprise. And obviously, if you follow us on Patreon, keep an eye out. There's some nonsense coming your way.

There'll be a new down the rabbit hole at some point in August. And we'll be back properly in September with Masquerade. Yes. Hopefully. Before we... You're not masquerade. I love masquerades so much. I'm so hyped for this one.

It's not problematic, is it? Probably. It's got an Italian in it. Oh, no. Not that Italians are inherently problematic. Oh, do I really need to go to bed? Yeah, we really do. Okay.

So, yes, we'll be back briefly next month properly in September. In the meantime. In the meantime. In the meantime. You can follow us on Instagram at the Two Shall Make You Freight on Twitter at Make You Freight Pod, on Facebook at the Two Shall Make You Freight. You can join our subreddit community, r slash t t s m y f.

You can email us your thoughts, queries, questions, pointless albatrosses, castles and snacks, the Two Shall Make You Freight Pod at gmail.com. And if you want to support us financially, go to patreon.com for the Two Shall Make You Freight and exchange some hard-earned pennies for all sorts of nonsense. It's such good nonsense. It's excellent nonsense.

And in the meantime, dear listener, do you understand? Are you listening? He said. That's the last time the universe is going to trick rinse win. Feel free to insert the bonk at any point now. Did you just make that bonk on purpose? Oh, no.

I just caught the microphone when I was trying to reach my nose.