The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 62: Maskerade Pt. 3 (Climbing Into Box 8)

Episode Date: September 20, 2021

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order. This week, Part 3 of our recap of “Maskerade”. Foreshadowing! Pays! Off!Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretWant to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:“While Terry was programing his ZX81 to Inform him of the high and low greenhouse temperatures overnight . . .” - Twitter (@terryandrob)Tree Swing - Business Balls [erm]The Masochism Tango (Tom Lehrer) - harpmolly’s rendition - YouTubeFish Fall Archives - The ForteanBouncing Tosca - Opera AnecdotesGrey Reads "The Masque of the Red Death" for Pandemicween - YouTubeMusic: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com

I have got like a very weird, great hint on my camera today. Swamp witch suits you as always. I have got the hint of the Baba Yagas. I think you can get a cream for that. If you had, she's come down with the Baba Yagas. Oh, the Somerset Baba Yagas. How many repeating terrible bits can we get into one 30 second thing? Challenge accepted.

I've now got a mental image of like, you know, that thing where the comedy gets really bad and someone gets yanked off by a cane. Yes, like that. But instead, I'm just dragged off by Albatross. The Albatross is the shepherd's crook of our podcast. I've never really seen, obviously, why would I? But a shepherd's crook being used. I'm now trying.

I'm not entirely sure how one how one hooks a sheep. I mean, is it like around the how big are the hook bits? Is it like around the neck? Is it like a collar? Yeah, I think you sort of use it like a collar to move them. Shepherds listening to our podcast. I'm sure there's it. I'm sure we've got a shepherd. We must have a shepherd.

Every time I mention a profession, one of them comes out the woodwork. You wouldn't think so with like an audience of smalls we have. But it's apparently a very good. What's the word? I mean, diverse sector, diverse sector of society. Yes. And speaking of, if there are tattooists who want to tattoo me in there in the UK, give me a shout. You said that last week.

I know. No one's got it. No one's come forward. No tattooists. Would you accept a tattoo from a shepherd? Yeah, probably give it a go. Or shepherding it by from a tattooist? Yeah, probably. We have to, you know, be flexible in these trying times.

I just possibly my brain very quickly went through a large pile of stupidity in a hurry. Which is that for a second, I was about to say that your husband's surname is Shepard. And it isn't. I was thinking of Jack Shepard, the character from Lost. But he has been known to wrangle a sheep every now and then. Jack Shepard, you know, of the purgatory shepherd. It wasn't purgatory. It was a confusing outlet. I know it wasn't.

But that was the favourite theory until it got confirmed, wasn't it? The flash sideways was kind of purgatory. Right, sure. I was not paying attention to most of that show. And that's, that's to be honest. Yeah, I was in Australia. I was getting the DVDs from a DVD rental shop only 10 years ago. So it was kind of weird, old fashioned then.

I think Lost Series 2 is one of the last DVDs series I remember buying when that was still a popular thing. I've still got some DVD boxes that I've bought since then. They're expensive. Yeah, well, I've got the full Gilmore Girls and I've got Buffy and Angel because they're... See, for series, you like rewatch a lot. That makes sense. Yeah, they're the ones that I like. I couldn't live with if Buffy and Angel happened to never be on a streaming service, like I'd need them.

Gilmore Girls, I could probably live without them today. It's one of those days, but... Oh, what's the pyramid called again? Hierarchy of needs. Yeah, yeah. Gilmore Girls and Buffy at the bottom, then like food and drink. Self-actualisation. Attention.

Yeah, I do need quite a lot of attention. Underwear without holes in it. Well, I mean, it's got some holes in there, just where they're meant to be. Just after I know we're recording now. No, I meant leg holes. I was just about to say, you know, I'm not wearing crotchless pants while we were recording. Much to our listeners' disappointment, I'm sure. I forgot about the leg holes.

And the hole at the top, so you can... Oh, that's not a hole, that's just part... I like the hole. Oh, all right, fine. It's a body hole. That kind of assumes that the default state of garment is like a sphere of fabric. Yeah, I was about to say. Well, no, it's just all garments have holes in.

Is the bottom of a hat a hole? Yes. All right. All right, I'm not going to argue with you, you're the seamstress. Well, no, I wouldn't say the bottom of a hat a hole. Double entendre absolutely meant. Sorry. I knew I shouldn't have brought up the crotchless pants.

God, I'm really sorry if we've got younger listeners, by the way. Can we think of anything to talk about that's more pratchit-related than my underwear? No, I'm just going to beef out the entire soft open. It'll be fine. Well, it's not very upbeat, but what's his... Oh, my God, what's his name? Clive Sinclair? Yes.

Clive Sinclair died. Clive Sinclair died. It was quite sad. I found out from Terry Pratchit's Twitter account, which is why I've contacted the two. Oh, right. That makes sense. Because he and Rob were both big users of the spectrum things. The ZX, what's its...

Oh, yeah. The tweet said something like Terry Pratchit used to program... While Terry Pratchit was programming his computer to read out the top and bottom temperatures of the greenhouse overnight, I was programming mine to swear at my friends. Oh, that's lovely. Yeah. I do sometimes wonder how into computers I would have been if I'd been, you know, GeneXer, who had the...

Knowing me probably quite a bit because I do enjoy that whole kind of cobbling something together from, you know, I'm the kind of person who'll try and write a website notepad for the sake of it. Yeah. If I'd had the opportunity. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. But I'll never know.

I guess we'll never know. We've got to think of something else to talk about that is just in case I decide to take out a bit about the underwear. I feel like you should leave the underwear in and just bleep everything around me saying something like crotchless so that the listeners can think I said something much worse. Oh, that would be good, yeah. Yeah. And I have a lucky lion in my handbag, thanks to your zoo expedition.

It was a lovely expedition. What did I decide to call him? Grantham. You named him after the guy from the... Oh, yeah, no, I've changed my mind. You should call him Ridcully. Yes, good idea. Ridcully the lion.

Ridcully, somewhat, Leonine. Or Mustram. Mustram, yes. Yes. Bring back Mustram as a name. There's not enough Mustrams in our day-to-day lives. Is it a name or is it a made-up one? That's a good question.

That's not start tangenting on wizard names before we've even started the episode for us in. Oh, it's not even on wizard episode, is it? Yeah. All right, probably not. There's no wizards in this bit. There are no wizards in this bit. There should be a wizard in this bit.

Hmm. Is it Feet of Clay next? Yes. Are we doing that next month? Yes. All right, cool. No wizards in that eyes already. Wait, no, there's probably some wizards.

Yeah, I was going to say. It's in the city. It's another watch one. Yeah. I'm so excited. But before we go on to Feet of Clay, should we finish talking about Masquerade? Oh, yeah, sure. That sounds better.

Do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, let's make a podcast. Hello and welcome to the Two Shall Make You Fract, a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, one at a time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan. And I'm Francine Carroll. And this is part three of our discussion of Masquerade.

The exciting climax. I am sorry now about the summary. I got that in early. I thought I'd just mix up where I apologize in the episode. I'm never going to stop apologizing. No, no. Not on spoilers. Before we crack on, this is a spoiler-like podcast.

Obviously, heavy spoilers for the book Masquerade. But we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series. And we're saving any and all discussion of the final Discworld novel, The Shepherd's Crown, until we get there so you, dear listener, can come on the journey with us. Thundering up several steps of stairs holding flaming torches. Excellent. We know you have fans hunting down Pratchett's final novel than an angry mob. Yeah.

So. A follow-up, but we've got some missives from the round world, Francine. We have. I've been so organized recently with these. Say recently. Last episode in this episode. Yeah. So there's a couple, or a couple of weeks old, because I'm not that organized.

Same. Front of the show, Courtney Dreher. I've never tried to say her name before. Courtney says, this is random, but I arbitrarily decided to learn Welsh. And so I've seen a couple of possible references in Discworld names. Why should I choose this? Quell, maybe, means goodbye. It might be a stretch, but Quell sounds a lot like Quell.

The other one is the Welsh word for carrot is moron, which made me properly lull. I still like that. It's obviously a reference. Marvelous. I like that. The Welsh word I didn't say right is H-W-Y-L, by the way. If anybody wants to shout at me about the specifics. Quell.

Quell, maybe. And then Zink Stoked on Reddit told us about Death's Tree Swing, which was one of your favorite things, wasn't it? Oh yeah. Back in the one with Susan. Soul music. Soul music. Thank you.

I'm going to go back to an article about such a tree swing. And it has illustrations on it. But it says, the famous tree swing picture depicting a tire and rope swing in various states of dysfunctionality illustrates the pitfalls of poor product design or poor customer service. And the dangers of failing to properly listen to customers and interpret their needs. So basically it's just an increasingly more complex, ridiculous tire swing in line eventually with what Death managed to construct. Yeah.

That's interesting. I like that. We also. We also. More relevant to this book. We have, I'm not sure this is a missive exactly, but I'm going to share it with everybody anyway. Harp Molly has a video where she did a harp rendition of the masochism tango by Tom Lear. And we were talking about Tom Lear last week.

And it's lovely. And I love it very much. And so I'm going to link that for everybody to see. It is fantastic. Thank you, Harp Molly. And now they did tell me how to pronounce this, but I've forgotten. Sondav Vogel. Sondav Vogel.

Vogel explains Saltzela's name, which is actually a reference to something. Of course it is. It's Pratchett. Saltzela seems to be based on Antonio Salieri as depicted in the movie Amadeus. Brackets, which although somewhat entertaining historically is absolute nonsense. His name meaning saltzela, like seller of salt, someone who sells salt rather than saltzela. I watched the movie Amadeus because for some reason Colt Steel, who did the web development course I did, is like weirdly obsessed with it. So when he was teaching APIs and how to do like a JavaScript list that will rank stuff in different ways, he kept using Amadeus as an example of like the highest rated movie.

Beautiful. And it is very entertaining if total nonsense. Good. And then finally, by email from Steven Wood, we have operas regarding the fact we haven't watched any operas. Given your physical location, I would have thought you might enjoy Peter Grimes by Britain, which also has queer overtones. I always support a queer overtone. As you always say, Joanna, everything needs more gay and eyebrows. Or perhaps his version of a Midsummer Night's Dream.

And lastly, he says, it is 30 of this month since I met a very good friend of mine who is also a regular listener to the pod. Brackets we bonded over our love of Pratchett. Not sure if you do requests. I'd say we don't usually, but I like this email. Yep. But a shout out to Tom Peach in Helensburg from me would be great if you do. Hi, Tom. Hi, Tom.

Happy friend anniversary. Friend anniversary. 30 years is pretty good. Yeah, that is good. Next year, I'm going to hit 20 years with my oldest friend, Becky, and she's really upset about that. So I'm reminding her every opportunity. Not because like she hates me, I don't think, just because the passing of time is appalling. Yeah, no, it is very stressful.

Oh, one other one that I missed that came in a couple of weeks ago from Elizabeth, who is just catching up to interesting times and has met Hex and said, I absolutely cannot carry on with my day until I've told someone somewhere that the word Hex sounds exactly like the Dutch word for which Hex with a K. Oh, cool. So. I remember saying that. Unseen University is just now discovering the value and limitless capacity of the which. And I'm not sure if this is intentional, but it's great joy. And I'm assuming that means that Hex and Hex have.

Similar etymology. Yes. You tell me you didn't go straight down that rabbit hole, Joanna. I am trying to have some restraint when it comes to etymological rabbit holes on the basis that there are only so many hours in the day and I'm replaying the Spyro games right now. I was nearly late for work the other day because I was looking up Salieri, so I think that's fair. Your ability to procrastinate, honestly, just it's beautiful. I love it so much. I love you so much.

I'd put it down to ban. Oh, thank you. I love you too. I don't know what else to say, but honestly, it is just or largely a complete disinterest in whatever I'm meant to be doing. Pretty standard for me. This is why I try and always be doing five tasks at once. Very few things get done. But what else are you doing right now?

I can't see your hands. Are you doing crochet or something? No, this like tend to be quite focused because there's a screen and a microphone and plans and notes and that's enough to that's enough. All the sensors are being bombarded. Yes. Also, I'm thinking about food. Always. Always.

Right. Shall we actually talk about Masquerade then? Francine, would you like to tell us what happened last week in Masquerade? Absolutely. Previously on Masquerade, Nanny and Granny arrive in Angkor Pork. They visit the opera house where the ghost is struck again, strangling Dr. Andershaft understaged and swinging him into the limelight with superb dramatic timing. Which is thumbs up pricking and having dealt with their suspicions in different directions, they reunite to collect Nanny's royalties with only a little resistance. Newly enriched, they're quickly in poured by a shopping spree and a steamy supper that ends in an insane investment.

Meanwhile, Agnes goes through the looking glass into a disappointing world of damp drafts and drifting music. She's no sooner lost than she's found by unlikely hero, Walter Plinge, who gives her a clue that's confusing and clear in equal measure. We should have a pit orchestra as what this section of the book has taught me. Yeah. I seem we can stretch that. If we can get a couple more patrons. In our small residences and minus budget. If we could get a couple more listeners.

If you haven't signed up for Patreon already, please do so we can get an orchestra. A little Bijou, an orchestra. Lovely little orchestra in the country for weekends. I just remembered why we shouldn't record in the evenings. I'm a dick. Yeah, me too. Okay. You've cheered me right up again though, so we're all right.

I probably get a cut it out. So listeners, I was very grumpy for the first one minute of our recording. I just had a hell of a time trying to make the internet work, but. But then I told Francine about my underwear and now she's happy. Yes. That's me at Incall over here. Excellent. Well done.

Cool. So do you want to tell us what happened in this part of the book, which is so much stuff. In this section, many things happen. Do you want to tell us which ones? Yes. I'll tell you all of them. Okay. All of them.

All of the things. The librarian arrives at the opera house and the orangutan organist lends a few spare parts to the vandalised organ. Agnes tells Andre she believes Walter Plinge is the haunting horror of the house, much to his amusement. Granny and Nanny shop for menswear before swinging by the opera house to hunt down Griebo. Agnes tells Christine about her Plinge theory and is once again met with hysterics. The ghost confronts the girls, but runs away just in time for Plinge to arrive, proving

he cannot be the spectacular spectre. Our dramatic persona prepare for a party before the big performance. Griebo gets human to go along with Granny. Henry Lorsie swats up and drags along his muttering mother. Sultzella sulk and spots conspicuous watchman. And the lady Esmeralda arrives as Nanny scumbles the sergeants. Scumble is a verb. Love it.

Let's keep that. I'm aware they're not actually sergeants before we get any emails. That's fun. Sultzella rallies the troops to rouse the ghost if he shows his mask, and Andre announces a substitution as the librarian confronts a bowtie and takes a seat at the organ. Apparently having insisted on it, though in truth convinced by Andre he has other plans to go awry. Granny inspects her newly purchased box eight as Nanny confronts Mrs. Plinge and gets a

mild concussion for her trouble. The opera begins with Agnes in the chorus as Nanny chases Plinge and after asking after Walter, censor to the land of scumble. Walter Plinge, now masked and ghostly, climbs into box eight and Griebo gives chase. The librarian plays on as the chase ensues with the audience distracted as the ghost and Griebo leap to the chandelier. Sultzella declares the ghost's true identity and the mob joins the chase as Granny finds Walter on the roof.

She passes his mask to Griebo and asks the feline fellow to lead the mob on a run. A difficult job as his knees begin to reverse and his morphogenic field reasserts. Walter and Nanny take refuge in the cellars as the mob are certain they've taken down someone. Detritus briefly finds a mask but loses it in what was definitely a large bird's claws. In the cellars Nanny finds Walter's musical home and the hummable fruits of his labour. As the interval rages on, Agnes and Granny meet backstage and establish that Walter might be the ghost but he's certainly no murderer.

Walter insists to Nanny that it's wrong to tell lies or tell anyone about the room with the sacks full of money belonging to the ghost. Granny and Nanny hide in Bucket's office. No, Granny and Agnes even hide in Bucket's office and discuss a riot counts until Andre interrupts. Our mysterious muse reveals he's not the murderer and is in fact a secret policeman while Granny explains the concept of multiple ghosts. Up in the fly loft Nanny finds a half-cut chandelier and confronts a ghostly Sultzella.

Down in the wings as the next act begins Bucket speaks to a confused basilica who should be on stage and Nanny joins the ballet dancers as the great unmasking of the opera moves forward a scene or two. The basilica on stage prepares to perform but Agnes takes a risk and stops the show. Walter hiding in the cellar's panics until Granny finds him and hands him a mask. On stage Sultzella, no longer in disguise as basilica, takes Agnes hostage. Granny confronts him, stops a steel sword and Agnes gives Walter a mask that he cannot be taken off.

The newly confident Walter defeats Sultzella who delivers a dramatic and operatic death scene. With the ghost gone Walter takes on the newly vacated role of musical director and unfortunately leaves that are currently conveniently unconscious. Christine should still have a starring role much to Agnes' upset. Bucket is joyous as he learns that Walter's new music might just make money and basilica throws off his Brindisian heritage to return to the life of Henry Slug, much to the joy of Mrs. Lorsie who knew him long ago.

The opera ends as Agnes sings and Sultzella faces the red death. Granny and Nanny head home picking up Grubo on the way. Agnes heads back for a bit and helps out Granny and Nanny as, at night, these three meet again for the first time. Beautiful. One note I would like to put forward, climbing into box eight as an innumendo. Yep, cool. Add that to the list.

Climbed into box eight if you know what I mean. I climbed into box eight last night if you know what I mean. I played Spyro for three hours. That's what I mean. Oh, I see. Yeah. Quotes. Quotes.

Quotes. Quotes. Quotes first and much longer. Yeah. I noted that down as yours instead of as mine as I read. I greatly appreciate you putting this one to one side for me because it's... It's very you. I like reading out Granny's big moment.

She always gets a good big speech. Oh, she does. The trouble is, see, that if you do know right from wrong, you can't choose wrong. You just can't do it and live. So if I was a bad witch, I could make Mr. Saltzella's muscles turn against his bones and break them where he stood. If I was bad, I could do things inside his head. Change the shape he thinks he is and he'd be down on what had been his knees and begging

to be turned into a frog. If I was bad, I could leave him with a mind like a scrambled egg listening to colors and hearing smells if I was bad. Oh, yes. There was another sigh deeper and more heartfelt. But I can't do none of that stuff. That wouldn't be right. She gave a deprecating little chuckle.

And if Nani Og had been listening, she would have resolved as follows, that no maddened cackle from black Alice of infamous memory, no evil little giggle from some crazed vampire whose murals were worse than his spelling, no side-splitting guffaw from the most inventive torturer, was quite so unnerving as a happy little chuckle from a granny weatherwax about to do what's best. Very good. Very terrifying, Nani. Granny or other.

That's possibly the most explicit she's been about what she's not doing. Thank you so much. Yes. And we're all very grateful. Mine is another granny moment, but much more compact. It's page 366 to page 367, as things are wrapping up for most of the cast, basically. Agnes cries,

but what about me? Oh, them as makes the endings. Don't get them. Is this granny? Yeah. I like it. It very much sums up the type of which granny is. Yes, absolutely.

They're the kind of the puppet master, isn't it? Which we'll come back to. I hate myself for saying this, Joanna, but we did miss Helicopter and loincloth watch. Oh, God, sorry. I zoomed us right past it as if we were in a helicopter. I take it from that you didn't find any helicopters. Oh, so like a matter thing, a bit within a bit.

Well, Nani mentioned that she's got her broomstick in a cleaning cupboard, and as we all know, broomsticks are basically just helicopters. Yes. I assume that's how the mask was nicked. Yep. Detritus is present, which I believe encourages the implication of a loincloth. Even though it was specified he's wearing a suit. Yeah.

Yeah, cool. But he's a troll, so I feel like he's got his inner loincloth. Sure. Yeah. Covering the crotch of his soul. Exactly. Briefly, the other little bits that we keep track of is that the librarian is not explained.

He's just present in all his orangutangi glory. Sure. Sure. He's missing a neck. Oh, and it's not really relevant, but I was keeping track of years and things and seeing if I can get an idea of timeline. And one of the bottles of champagne is from the Year of the Insulted Goat. Which we now know is a very good year for a vintage.

I just like the phrase the Year of the Insulted Goat. It's one of my favorites so far. Yes, it is very good. Yes. It's not worth its own little bit, actually, but one of the cool names mentioned was Reg Plenty. I thought it was another good rolling off the tongue one. I like that.

Reg Plenty. Speaking of characters, obviously we'll revisit a couple here and there. We can finally say that Saltzela did those murders. Ah. Because we've been avoiding saying that for the last two episodes. Just in case, yeah. I hope you're all grateful. He did it.

Yeah. I even edited things of it. Yes, you did, which makes it very hard to deliver. I'm going to talk more about the full shadowing, especially when it comes to Saltzela a bit later. But yes, there are three suspects. Saltzela, Andrew. I feel like Saltzela, Andrew and Walter are built up as the three suspects.

Yeah. Two out of three ain't bad. Yeah, for sure. Saltzela is, I forgot to look into this properly. I saw her on a particularly windy reddit post from someone who just really hated Masquerade for some reason. He mentioned that Pratchett had done a Rickman spoof and I can only imagine he meant that Saltzela was meant to be Alan Rickman.

Right. In like his dry, I don't know, maybe I completely got that wrong. But I just read that earlier when I was looking something else up. Yeah. I mean, Alan Rickman would make a really good Saltzela. Yeah. Sorry. I'm now just checking that Alan Rickman wasn't in the movie about Salieri.

In case I've massively forgotten that. No, he wasn't. Yeah. I might have. It just said Rickman. So he might have been referencing something else. I'm not even talking about Saltzela. I have no idea.

But that was where my mind went when I read that. I mean, like, you know, I'm not one for fan casting, but I could see that one working, except it would be too obvious that he's the villain because that's what Rickman plays. Well, okay. Yeah. That's what Rickman played. Well, sorry, I forgot for a second that Alan Rickman was dead. Now I'm just going to get depressed in the call.

Oh, I'm sorry. I should never remind you that Alan Rickman's dead mid-recording. We know about this front scene. I have to reenact half of Dogma. I'm not going to do that. I am aware you'll never speak to me again. So yeah, so I'm going to talk about Saltzela a bit more later. Andre, it's discovered as a secret policeman.

Yes. One of the Cable Street particulars. Yes, which is an interesting choice, as we'll find out later. Yes. I feel like at this point, obviously, it's a reference to the Baker Street regulars. Yeah. Yeah. But Cable Street is relevant to the police again later, basically.

We'll come back to that. But I like the fact that, you know, I think it's something I've talked about previously, that as we get further into this world, the world building gets more and more interesting because it, he uses stuff even so this isn't a watchbook, but we get Nobby and Detritus and we get that the fact that there is this kind of secret police investigative police side of it now as well. Yes. And Vimes is quite good at using Nobby and Detritus as red herrings.

Yeah. And it's just nice to see the watch growing kind of offscreen as it were, especially because we're about to revisit it in the next book and it's been not ages since Metta Arms, but it's been a minute. Yeah. Been a couple of books. Yeah. And then we have Walter, Walter Plinge.

Yes. You kept saying his name, obviously, during the summary and I've just realised his name is horrible. Plinge. Plinge. Oh. Plinge. I take quite a lot of joy.

I liked Plinge theory. Yes, that was good. I did like that. One thing, obviously, we have the whole big reveal of who Walter is. I don't like that he becomes nastier, although I suppose it does somewhat make sense. I think he becomes a theatre director, doesn't he? Yeah. I understand why they did it.

Yeah, it would have been nice if he'd kind of at least had a bit more sympathy for Agnes, but it seems like as soon as he took on the role he was, that was that. Yeah. It kind of loses empathy. Obviously, we know not all theatre directors. Hashtag. If we have any theatre directors listening, I will be surprised for some reason. I don't know.

We've got friends in theatre who listen. Okay, sure. I also like that Walter would take the fire out of the house. Yes. Yeah. That was an interesting bit of not even foreshadowing because it was not set on screen and then three pages later it was revealed what it was. Yeah.

Just a tiny bit of suspense there. My Walter note was that he's dragged, he moves like he's being dragged along by his head, which works well for me because that's how pigeons walk, isn't it? They put their heads forward and then they catch up with it. Yeah. So that's what I'm imagining now. Happening that with slightly more flailing of limb. Yes.

And then obviously we have the witches. We have nanny, granny and Agnes. Oh. Fun Agnes with the witches. How would she sort of join to them on the mountain by the end of the book? So to speak. No. Not so to speak.

She's literally there. Yes. Climbed into boxade if you know what I mean. Join them on the mountain. Yeah. Get my dress. Engaging in a bit of plinge theory. No.

Sorry. Too far. It's because it sounds like plunger. Yeah. I think that's it. Plinge with his plunger. Plunging. Stop now.

Stop. Sorry. Nanny. Big fan of nanny. I like that we get a moment of granny reflecting on nanny's particular sort of magic. Yes. It's nice when granny does occasionally acknowledge that nanny is a very good witch in her own right.

Yeah. Very effective. Ignore my previous rants about, you know, nanny is actually the better witch because obviously that was mostly just silliness. But they are very powerful in different ways. And it's very rare that we see granny acknowledge how outranked she is in specific things. Yeah. I mean, even if I never quite agreed with the nanny is the better witch thing.

I can very much admit that granny would not be the get the opportunity to have these showdowns if it weren't for nanny. Yeah. Never insinuated herself in the opera house in this way. Might have done it would have taken a lot longer. A lot more people might have died first. Yeah. It's the thing where they really work best together and they only really need the third

to have something to bounce off to get to and from each other. Poor Agnes. There's also, I don't know, interesting, but I never really came to a massive conclusion other than I don't like fat jokes. But I did find myself questioning why an almost identical joke is made about nanny that was made about Agnes right at the beginning, which is when nanny's joined the ballet dancers, little fat ones spun like a top and moved across the floor like one, two bits of her anatomy trying to achieve local orbit.

And I don't know why, but that never bothered me quite as much as the jokes about Agnes did at the beginning. If I were to speculate is because it's part of a slapstick scene. Also, I think it's the fact that nanny is a character is very comfortable with who she is. Swinging around. Yeah. With her swinging around with her size and her shape. And she's never tried to make herself smaller.

Yeah. She is. She is very comfortably nanny, whereas Agnes is not comfortable with it. So when the book makes the jokes about Agnes, it's very much at her as opposed to I think with nanny, it's more with her. Yes. I'm aware that these aren't real people that are being mocked or not here. Well, I think for the sake of this podcast, we'd better pretend they are.

We just sound very silly. I sound very silly anyway. Thank you very much. Wow. In a good way. Yes. Graham or she was briefly known for five minutes as a teenager and demon. And demon.

And demon. And demon. And demon. And demon. And demon. Yeah. No, I can see why that didn't last. I don't know if it's meant to be like demon.

There we go. I got it. And demon in here. Like endometriosis. Yeah. Sure. That's probably what she was talking about. Yeah, sure.

That's probably what she was basing it off. Not demon. I never pick a name. You can't scrub the floor. And I respect it. I do. As well as like dislike scrubbing floors. You can imagine her having also made it up to make Agnes feel better as well though.

Yeah. And just throwing some syllables together in her brain as she goes along. Because it's not being funny. Esmeralda's already a pretty badass name. It's not an Agnes, is it? Yeah. Esmeralda's in the same land as Perdita already. Yeah.

But then I could also see Granny doing it based on the Granny, the young Granny we met in Lords and Ladies. Absolutely. I'd say it's a bit of a toss up. And yes, Granny doesn't practice psychiatry. She practices Hedology. And there is, I like that we kind of got an example of the difference there. The specific example as well.

A psychiatrist will try and endeavor to convince a man that monsters don't exist. Whereas Granny would give him a chair to stand on and a heavy stick. And we will later meet another character who takes that exact tack. Yes. And it's very nice because it's a very different sort of character that does it. And... Yes, there's some core similarities. But for sure, not Granny 2.0.

Yeah. I'll be disappointed that we don't really get to see these two characters bounce off each other because I feel like that would be fun. Oh, and the Granny gets one other really badass moment, which is obviously she grabs the sword and it doesn't hurt her. And even Granny's speculating about how she managed it. And... Granny says, you weren't her.

And Granny says, not my fault. I didn't have time. Yes. Which I respect because obviously working in a kitchen, you'll do things like chop a bit of finger off and go, oh, I don't have time to deal with that and just stick a glove on and hope for the best until you can finally deal with it later. Which I should clarify is not good. Oh, yeah.

Don't do that, guys. The sign of a really unhealthy work culture. Yeah. Don't do that, guys. I'm just saying I have done that. Having seen you at the end of one of those shifts, I would strongly recommend people just get a job where they're allowed to stop the bleeding. Yeah.

I'm not saying I aspire to this. I'm saying I'm relate to this. Yeah, absolutely. But yes, let's not set a bad example for the listeners. Listeners, don't cut bits of yourself off. I see like have one of those powers where you could wait until later before you start bleeding and like get the bandages ready. Like...

Yeah. I enjoyed that moment for Granny. That was fun. And then who else have we got? Who else have we got? Agnes. We've got Agnes who kind of very grudgingly comes to term with witchiness, doesn't she? She does.

There's a moment earlier in the section where she is starting to come to terms with it. Well, and by starting to come to terms with it, I mean she's very much insisting that she is not becoming a witch. Yes. Because Granny is pointing out to her that she is. And Granny explains to her like, you know, you're going to be a witch because you are a witch and it's all very well you don't want to, but you've got more important things to be getting on with right now.

So just do that. Yes. And have your identity crisis afterwards. Oh, I guess it's like a parallel to the sword hand. Yeah. Very much so. But then also Agnes gets the interesting moment that I guess kind of makes me understand why so much is made of her fatness.

It feels like a lot of her fatness is so this joke can be made at the end of the opera not being over until she gets the things that final note. Yes. At least he didn't explicitly say it. I'm so glad that it was left to be a moment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I also wanted to and didn't have time to look up the truth or lack thereof in people being able to sing high enough to shatter things. Obviously they wouldn't be able to do as much damage as Agnes could. But I feel like I have read somewhere before that it's possible under very controlled circumstances. But yeah, I don't like Agnes's ending for this book really. No. It's not what she wanted. And it sort of treats as if what she wanted is silly and she's grown up by coming to join

the witches now. Yes. I feel like after she'd had that moment with Walter Plend, though, what she wanted would have worked, you know. Yeah. But it doesn't feel like it was totally her choice to give up and go back. I think she was... It wasn't.

But maybe that's, you know, that's kind of what would happen, isn't it? Yeah. I would mild spoiler for listeners, but we'll see Agnes again. Yeah. And which is why I'm not bitching about the ending. It's just not my favorite ending for a character. So let's move on to Griebo. Yes.

Griebo gets to be human again. Isn't that nice for him? No. Okay. No, it's really not. He hates it. Poor Griebo. It is turning out to be a very busy night for a single kitha, but as I pointed out in

which is abroad, I, for some reason, have a fondness for the moments of Griebo having to go human. Yeah. And the weirdly lascivious description of him. Like, obviously, the decision was made. And I think because there's not a lot of handsome men in the disc world, as in not explicitly handsome. I think once Pratchett made the decision that Griebo was going to be hot, he kind of went,

all right, well, I'm just going to have a lot of fun describing hot Griebo then because I don't do that a lot. Yeah. Any other one I can think of is Victor. It's very good looking. Victor Tugelman. Yeah. And Kara, I mean, but not in the same way.

Yeah. Kara. I don't sexualize Kara. That's weird. Yeah. Kara is not lasciviously handsome. No. I would like to see him try to spell it.

Lassiviously handsome sounds like a really bad name. Lassiviously handsome with an insouciant mustache. Oh, yeah. Henry Lorsie and his mother. Oh, yes. This is two of my just favorite disc world background characters we've ever come across. It is a really fun lens to watch a lot of the final events through. Yes.

Yes. There's something very relatable about it as well. Oh, for sure. Like anything complicated I'm watching, I'm always like, have I missed something? Is this meant to be like inexplicable at this point? Or have I, have I missed something already? Oh God. My arm is stapled to the chair.

You really need to stop stapling yourself to things when you watch stuff. But I'm so bored. That is not how you should process boredom, Francine. Look at Reddit. That's what I do and that's why I'm confused about what's happening in this film. I've just accepted I will never fully pay attention to a film and I have to really love it and watch it 18 times to fully grasp the plot. But then I'll memorize the whole thing and never get out of my brain.

That's true. That's true. Anyway, yes, Henry Lorsie and his mother are very sweet. It's just really lovely writing and really, really human characters in the midst of a lot of chaos and nonsense. Yes. I like how down to earth his mother insists on staying. Yeah.

She won't have any part of this. And I like, you know, Henry sort of trying to do social mobility and fire a law firm run by zombies. So the hope of promotion by dead men's shoes is never going to happen. No. Oh, and of course I've already mentioned them, but it's just nice to see Nobby into trying this again. Like I said, it rounds out the world sort of having the watchman showing up.

Yes. Yeah. And they're being terrible at their job. But detritus is at least trying. Nobby is not. Detritus means very, very well. Bless him. He's thinking it through.

Yeah. I don't, I didn't bother marking anything for locations. We don't go anywhere new. We pretty much just at the opera house. I just turned the page and I was like, oh, did I print this out before you'd finished it? No. Okay, good.

No, I couldn't really justify putting in any locations unless I talked about the location of Granny's new privy. What about the cellar? Yep. Found some of the opera cellars there full of scenery candles and a small organ. Yeah. Pretty cool. And the roof is a roof.

Yep. Now you were right. You made the right call and I tried to stand by it and I made it worse. Apologies for the listeners that were hoping I would devote 10 minutes to the cellar. But I'm trying to save those 10 minutes for an inevitable tangent later in the episode. Yes, when we get hungry again. I'm trying really hard not to think about food. Right.

Do you want five minutes before we do the second half? I forgot to say earlier, when we're talking about Agnes and Fat Drake and things, that the whole thing about the like, oh, she's got a wonderful personality. Lovely hair. And it's reminded me of the song personality from the Fallout 4 soundtrack, I don't know. Yes. Or it's a double entendre for breasts instead of white. Think of all the books about the various looks.

What was it made of? The toast of Berry. She had a well-developed personality. Yeah. Not my favorite one. But it's been in my head all afternoon. I just remembered it had been white had been in my head all afternoon. Anyway, anyway, boy doing all right.

Boy's fun. There's a live stream about the new Guild Wars expansion that's coming out in February. So he's quite happy. This is why you date nerds. Yep. Jack's upstairs writing sci-fi. So I'm treating myself to a wine as it's at this point on a Friday. And also if I drink more coffee, I'm never sleeping.

Yeah. Well, I'm just never sleeping. That's who you are as a person. For me, there's still hope. If you're re-ating, I slept quite well earlier in the week when I didn't have any coffee after like 3pm. But let's forget that. Try after 6pm.

Usually I do stop after about 6 or 7. But I'm recording soon. Do you also stop Diet Coke? Yes. Diet Coke, I find, is worse somehow. And so I stop drinking that afternoonish usually. It's the bubbles. They get you excited.

That'll be it. Right. The video is still lagging. I'm very sorry anyone's watching video for this. This must be annoying. But it's nothing I can do about it, I'm afraid. It's fine. It adds a sense of je ne sais quoi.

Or as the French would say, I don't know what. There's a big one. Where's the library? Where is the library? Donde. No, that's Spanish. Donde is still a biblioteca, it's Spanish. That's it, yeah.

Because it's the thing from community. There's multiple. There's a discotheca. Who's my father, Francine? I'm 8 years old. I still remember. I'm 8 years old. Because that is when I learned to say that sentence, I guess.

Do you remember that one song? That was one of the ones we used to do. I did French club when I was in year 4. So before we started doing it at school. Because the woman who ran the French club also happened to live a street away from us. Which meant that she could take me home after French club. And Mum didn't have to put me up from school. Good stuff.

But that was mostly like doing lots of the songs. Like C'est le pont d'avignon. Now I'm going to... Go dite moi pourquoi. But that's from self specific. Yes. And the frère Jacques, obviously. And then there's like...

C'est la vie, c'est comme ça. C'est le vie, mais... I can't remember that one. Yeah. I promise if I hear C'est la vie, I immediately go to be witched. And then of course you got... Non, je n'ai rien. That song will always remind me of the smell of Café Rouge.

Yeah. One of those weird sense memories. Café Rouge, which is not gone. I don't know if it's gone from everywhere. Or whether it's just gone from very... It's gone from our town. I grew up going there. That's where we used to go for dinners as a family.

That's where I learned to eat... Not where I learned to eat dinner properly, but like where I was taught to behave nicely in a restaurant and things. It's my first legal job. No, yeah. First place I had beer with a meal as well, I think. Aww. I remember having a birthday there and Mum getting me a bagpuss cake.

Aww. Some bagpuss cake. Nice. I was so happy about my bagpuss cake until I realised the paws were made of marzipan. Yeah, marzipan. It's ruined so many bagpusses for me. Cool. None of this is...

We're making a podcast, Francie. Are we? Oh, no. But we've been talking nonsense for over an hour. Please keep all of that in. Little bits we liked. Shall we talk about the little bits we liked? Do you want to talk about looking up words, Francie?

Oh, yeah. So, Henry, what's his job? Henry Lorsie. Thank you. Who you particularly liked was reading his programme with the help of a dictionary. Because he didn't understand quite a lot of the words like blindishments, for instance. And I quite like the quote, Henry lived his life in permanent dread of being asked questions later. Which I definitely did at school like this.

Henry right now is kind of me when I was trying to pay attention at school. It popped back into my head on page 319 when I read the sentence, erratic though his thinking might have been. It was no match for Naniog's meretricious duplicity. And I had no idea what that meant. What does meretricious mean? Apparently attractive but having no real value. Or archaically and enchantingly relating to or characteristic of a sex worker.

Ah, perfect for Naniog. And a meretricious to you too. And to all a good night. Insouciant meretricious. This is definitely one of those books where I'm like, I think from context I can get it, but let's just double check that. There's also a book that once you've checked pronunciation is incredibly satisfying to read aloud. Yes. Anyway, who's is next?

Oh, you wanted to talk a bit as like a sub point to this one about class snobbery, right? Oh, yeah. Well, it was just, it was another sort of Henry Lawsey moment where when they're watching the ballet with Naniog joining in. And he's sort of not sure what's meant to be going on, but he really wants to know what's going on. And I really love the sort of, I don't know, it's a bit of a class thing, but the people who must be seen to know what's going on. So they're all saying to them, yes, yes, they tried this in Pesudopolis. Yes. Really good demonstration of not following the advice.

Better to be, better to stay silent and be thoughtful than to open your mouth and confirm it. Yes. When you're not sure, loudly saying your guess is not always the best way, but it says that. I mean, that's what we do constantly, but we're not trying to move up in the class. But then if you say it confidently enough, people will believe you. I can present two wildly different arguments for the motivations of Richard Third in the opening speech of the play and both of them could seem completely correct. If I just say it confidently enough. Sure.

But most people will believe you, but the one person who knows what they're on about is probably the one person you want to convince and they will know you're talking shit in the case of something like this, the quorum chase or whatever. Well, yeah. Subjected stuff, sure. Bullshit my way through it, but yes. There is nothing I won't bullshit my way through as this podcast happily demonstrated. Oh, I know. Forty in experience, Francine. Oh, yeah.

So the page 291, the bowl of caviar flew out of his nervous fingers and caused a 40 in experience somewhere in the stalls. We've talked about the 40 in times before. I think in relation to Good Omens. Yeah. And you gave us a obscure reference finial on the 40 in. Is that right? It's anyway, for anyone who's forgotten, it's a monthly magazine that focuses on obscure happenings and a well known example is range of fish. In fact, it's so well known that I found a 40 in times page, which is an index called the falls of fish or something.

Fish falls something ridiculous. Anyway, I'll link to that in the show notes. Oh, that's another rain of fish. We can afford a rain of taro, rain of fish, rain of frog. Just one. Just one. But it was a real news. It's trying really hard.

Yours. You go. Oh, yes. There's a Sherlock Holmes reference that quit from Nobby. When you have ruled out the impossible, what is left, however improbable, ain't worth hanging around on a cold night wondering about when you could be getting on the outside of a big drink. Yeah. Yeah. Weird thing to quote someone so directly, isn't it?

Yeah. When you've eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable must be the truth. Yeah. And it's a very famous Sherlock Holmes quote, but it's a favorite because it's, I can't remember, to be perfectly honest. I haven't read a lot of Sherlock Holmes, to be honest. Yeah, you'd like it. No, I've read the odd one. I've just, it's never one that I've gone into, into.

But it's one that's quoted a lot and is very famous. But it's also said by Spock in Star Trek. Oh. And some people will say it's a Star Trek quote and then other people are going, no, no, no, no, because Spock was quoting Sherlock Holmes because he'd read Sherlock Holmes. And then the amusing round off to that is in the modern BBC series, Sherlock, the Vandekamba Batch one. He says that and then says that he was quoting Star Trek. Very nice. So I just enjoy the full circle of that little quote.

Speaking of Star Trek, didn't someone on the Reddit discussion thread say something about modern major general being sung by one of the Star Trek? Oh God, if I've got this wrong. It's an extract from one of the short Trek's episodes trapped in a turbo lift. Number one sings modern major general to Ensign Spock. There we go. I knew it. I've probably admitted before I've never watched any Star Trek, not through assuming it would be bad. I'm sure it's great.

It just seems like something that take quite a lot of time to get into on the level that everyone seems to be. I grew up with like next generation and enterprise and things. I mean, mom obviously had a thing for John Nick Picard because she was human. I have a fond childhood memory of it and Star Trek nemesis, which is generally thought of as one of the worst Star Trek movies, but happened to be on in the cinema when we were in the States for like the first time over Christmas. And I remember sleeping through it because I was very jet lagged. Oh, that's nice. My jet lag had worn off enough the following week to see the two chowers for the first time, which I did stay awake through.

Well done. That was a marvelous experience. Speaking of references though. Yes, references. There's lots of musicals referenced. Yes, there are. Which I don't really need to point out. The listeners will have probably got all of these, but as I didn't get any of the opera references.

Joanna would like a minute to sound clever, please, if we could all indulge her. Thank you, dear listeners. We've got guys and trolls. Obviously guys and dolls. Hubwood Side Story, West Side Story, Miserable Lez. This play about a bloke called Lez who's miserable all the time. I'm assuming that's Phantom of the Opera. Yep.

Seven Dwarfs for seven other Dwarfs. Seven Dwarfs for seven brothers. Oh, do you know what? I didn't get that one so well then. I don't. I've never heard of that. And then there's also a reference to a song, Don't Cry for Me, Genua, which I greatly enjoyed, because Don't Cry for Me, Argentina is one of my favourite belt out in the Chower songs.

I only know that one line, actually. Don't Cry for Me, Argentina. The truth is I never left you all through my dark days, my sad existence. I won't actually do it. You can't belt because I asked you to turn yourself up a little bit. I just realised that moving back from the screen won't remove my headphones. And that's why I didn't start belting there. Thank you, much obliged.

In the early days of the podcast, Joanna sometimes forgot that the microphone was a thing. I'm enthusiastic. What can I say? You are enthusiastic. Something I very much agreed with in person, that you should belt out random lines. But unfortunately, when recording, the microphone don't like it. Yes, I promise listeners I will not start singing Don't Cry for Me, Genua. But yeah, I don't really know the musical of ita that well, but I really love that song.

It is a lovely song. Other stuff that gets referenced though, Bouncing Giggly. Excuse me. Yeah, I'm so glad I found this because I vaguely remembered this story and I couldn't find it anywhere until I started googling Bouncing Giggly instead of the key words I was trying to go for and someone on Reddit had done this for me. Thank you. But it's the tale of Bouncing Tosca, which I was then able to look up and find a proper source on.

This supposedly occurred at the Lyric Opera of Chicago and involved a British soprano. As Tosca, she was supposed to leap to her death from the walls of Castile, Sant'Angelo. Usually, the actress lands on a mattress. But stage workers had thoughtfully improved her safety by replacing the mattress with a trampoline. The result was that Tosca appeared two or three times from behind the wall, having thrown herself off the bench. Eva Turner has admitted to being that Tosca apparently and I will link to a little thing about that. What a helpful trampoline. Everybody's studiously ignoring the fact that the suicide was reappearing.

I know I did hear that they tried it like that in Pseudopolis. It was so depressing to google. I was trying to find this story and I can't remember where I heard it first. I feel like it was in a horrible histories or something. I was trying to google it and I kept finding stories of people who'd been badly hurt in Romeo and Juliet, like Juliet tumbling from the balcony or random people falling from balconies in the theatre. I was like, oh, gosh. Don't put balconies in your theatre learns.

Anyway, so that's funny and not death, which was nice. Excellent summation there. Speaking of death. Speaking of death, ourselves, Ella's death scene. God damn. Well done. It hit that perfect bit of comedy where if it had stopped to paragraph earlier, it would have just felt a bit silly and overdone. But it went on long enough that it went back around to funny again.

And you have to admit, based on what that disgruntled redditor said, that Alan Rickman would have done that on stage very well because the man could ham. Oh, he could. He could ham. But it is the moment where he does the and another thing. Yes. He sort of died two or three times and has for people who attend the opera. I feel like this is how both of us will die.

Just like, actually, no, I forgot to say. Wait, no, wait. That is absolutely how I'm going out. I don't know if there's any, like, famous examples of, like, the worst culprits here, but it's very much a trope, isn't it, of people taking far too long to die, stumbling around the stage. It's definitely with Shakespeare, like Romeo and Juliet. Hamlet, there's so many dramatic death scenes that if you get a production where every actor

really wants to go all in on it, then it's just adds an extra hour to the show. I've never had to do a death scene. I'd love to do a death scene. Grim. Grim, but it's good fun. I think I'd do it just, like, straight down. Done. People remember it for being mercifully brief.

No, see, I'm the opposite. I'd go all the way. I see it as kind of like speeches or toasts and that you could probably convince yourself that's what people want to hear, like this long, drawn out, thoughtful thing, but really people just want it done. Well, yeah, true. But then I'm speaking of somebody who really believes that almost every bit of entertainment should be significantly shorter, so.

That is very true. You are very, very hard on the hour and a half for a film at most, please. Well, I don't have much of an excuse for stuff I'm watching at home, but for other things, I drink a lot of caffeine and I don't have, like, a massive bladder and I'm always going to panic about needing to go for a wee. I used to bring books everywhere when I was a kid and didn't care about looking rude, but. This I'm all right with because A, intervals and B, if it's really shit, then it's funny. Yes.

If it's a really bad play, then you can kind of take a lot of amusement in the fact that it's really bad. If it's good, then I don't know, I'm slightly more engaged because the people are physically there. Yeah. Although it can still drag. I'll tell you what, I've been to, like, longish stand-up performances and I really enjoy that. I think it's very much the rapid fire stuff I'm cool with. Yeah. Even if it's a long, a long rapid fire sesh.

I can deal with that, but it's. It's cinema for me, though, like Run P is the best app ever created. What is that? It's an app that you can put in, like, a film that's out in the cinema and it'll tell you, like, where the best points are to go in P and, like, what line of dialogue is kind of a, you can go P now. And, like, what will happen while you're away and you can turn on or off spoilers. But the worst, because, like, I don't go to the cinema often. And if I do go to the cinema, it's, like, four stuff that should be seen on the big screen,

which is quite often, like, the new Marvel movies, which are all, like, three hours long. Like, Avengers Endgame was over three hours long. I looked it up on Run P and they were, like, yeah, there is one two-minute section where you won't miss too much, maybe, but really is just full from top to bottom. And I was just, like. It seems unnecessary, though. I don't believe that it's three hours of, like, amazing. This couldn't have been edited down stuff.

It's just. It's the big, shiny fight scenes. Those are all where I go P. Yeah, exactly. I fucking hate fight scenes. Can't be after those. That's such a grump. I'm sorry.

Again, we've wandered vaguely off topic. Yeah, what are we talking about? We're with Solzela. Solzela and his death scene. And then we meet. That's a drawn out thing I would watch. Yes, now that was funny. And then afterwards, he meets Death, who is in costume in his Crimson,

which is, obviously, the Phantom of the Opera reference when the Phantom appears as Death at the end of, during the Masquerade, beginning of act two. Yes. And the book appears, thusly, as well and is described as being bedecked in Crimson with a white mask of bone. Secondary reference, of course, is the fact that it's, in the book, it's a reference to Ed Grail and Poe's short story, The Mask of the Red Death.

Yes. Which is a fantastic and creepy short story for anyone who's not read it. Yeah. CDP Grey, whom I'm always recommending to everybody, did a reading of that on his channel. I'll link to that one. Was that all my little bits? Shall we talk about the bigger bits?

On the outside looking in. On the outside looking in. A little talking thingy. As a kind of overall note on the book, I would say there is something really satisfying about the witches coming in from outside and untangling a situation. And for once, there's no existential stakes. Their kingdom isn't at risk. They're not at risk.

They just get to use their competence and, like, their sense of right and wrong to sort something out. Yes. And I love that and it's really satisfying. More specifically, this question I'd like to your thoughts on. You've got a choice. You can either be on the stage, just a performer, just going through the lines, or you can be outside it and know how the script works,

where the scenery hangs, and where the trapdoors are. Isn't that better? I think yes. Agnes thinks so. What do you think? I think yes. But you know me. Can you say that as a performer?

I like knowing how things work. My interest, even in performing, is about taking things apart and seeing how they work. It's why I like programming. It's why I like sewing. It's why I like cooking. I did theatre at school and then dropped out and blah, blah, blah. I got back into theatre in my early 20s and I lasted less than a year before I

started. I went from being in it to writing stuff and learning how it all worked and picking it apart and putting it back together. It started with me being a dick and saying we were doing some sketches about local history and I didn't like a joke and what it implied in one of the sketches. The director was a bit old fashioned and I said to him, we should take this out and he said, okay, write a better ending then.

So I did. Yeah. And that was where I started writing. I'd written before that. But yeah, as soon as I started doing part of it, I wanted to do all of it and figure out how it all worked. I think being on the outside looking in is more interesting. Yeah.

As a performer though, I know you like the limelight more than I do, I would say, or can cope with it more. It's a better way of putting it. Given the choice that Agnes is not really given, but given the choice between being the soprano on the stage there or being the which equivalent of a stage manager. Yeah. Do you think you would still pick the latter?

I would find that a harder choice. But I think I would just about still pick the latter. I think otherwise I would get bored. Yeah. And I do love attention. I really love being the center of attention and not just being silly about myself. I really love performing.

I miss being on stage. I haven't done it for well over a year now. Yeah. We need to get you back in a show. I say that. That's going to be incredibly time consuming. I love doing that stuff. But at the same time, I would never enjoy it if it was all I could do.

Yeah. Whereas I cannot do that, as I've shown for the last year and a half, and make stuff and work out how it all goes together instead. And that's just as fun. That's cool. Of course, in reality, when we're doing it at the kind of small theater level that you've done it at, you can do all of it, which is awesome. You can do performing and writing and stuff.

I guess if you were like in the big leagues, you would probably have to make a choice. Yeah. You see a lot of actors moving on from acting to directing. Writing and producing and directing, yeah. Anyway, the other kind of thing on this subject I liked and it kind of ties in with like narrative-y stuff is that Agnes knows what's going on. And I'm not sure whether that's her being in or out of the narrative or both,

but like it was Walter, Agnes knew it. It wasn't knowledge in her mind exactly. It was practically something she breathed. She felt it as a tree feels the sun. And then there are a few examples where the witch is. Eventually, Saltzella, although obviously he's more of a part of it than he wants to be, like way more because he dies from it. Get annoyed with the people in the story not seeing things clearly.

So like as the spectators, as the almost perfect masters by the end here. So an example, when Nanny's talking to Andre, it's like, how do you recognize the ghost, Mr. Policeman? Well, he's got a mask on. Really? Now say it again and listen to what you say. Good grief. You can recognize him because you don't know who he is.

Life isn't neat. Whoever said there's only one ghost. That moment was such a good moment because Andre does come across as really intelligent and competent. But it's swept up in the narrative. Nanny and Granny I think have always, well not always, but like in witches abroad as well, kind of like taking a step back from how the story should be and seeing it how it is.

Yeah. It's quite important to them. They're able to step outside of things and observe. And I guess compared to witches abroad, this is pretty low-stake stuff for them. Yeah. Quite easy to see. Right. And so people wearing a similar mask maybe.

There could be two masks. Yeah. That was my thought on in and out, but talking of masks actually. Let's talk about masks. I think you've got some thoughts on masks, haven't you? Well, it's sort of, you know, following on from character dynamics last week into, you know, I like to find a big central thesis of every book. Sometimes I do better than others.

But masks and identity are obviously the big theme. But there's an interesting dichotomy with the mask thing of the characters who need masks and the characters who are confident in their identity no matter who they're being. So with the latter, you have Granny is always Granny, whether she's Lady Esmeralda Weatherwax or she's moving her privy. Yeah. Nanny is always Nanny and has that Nanny-ish ability to settle into

every situation while continuing to be Nanny. Griebo as well. Even as the human version, he is always inherently Griebo. Yes. Which to Granny means that he's an evil bastard and to Nanny means he's Mr Fluffy. Absolutely. But then you have obviously the characters that rely on their masks in some way. Walter being the really obvious one.

And there's an interesting sort of speculation on Walter of, well, if you were Walter wouldn't you want to be the dashing ghost and it's the first sort of delve into his motivation we get from it. It's one of the first times you see a character really trying to have empathy for him. Yeah. Really trying to empathize with him. And obviously that comes to a head with Walter being given his mask so he can be the sort of Walter slash ghost hybrid that he becomes at the end.

Yeah. And Saltzela putting his mask on, but by this point he is just mad Saltzela. And you put the mask on and who you are can fight who he is. And it's this idea that once they've put their masks on they aren't really who there are because Saltzela has been hiding this huge part of his identity which is that he's gone completely fucking mad. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

I think once you've got to the stage where you're like murdering people that is probably the bigger part of your identity at them. And I like that as he comes out as this total mad man and is confronting everyone, especially when the ghost turns up and it's Walter. Sort of, oh, you're dead. Oh, a ghost of a ghost. Totally unbelievable. Best operatic tradition.

And you start getting more and more exclamation points in his runt. And it's just a fun joke that would only really work in text. Yeah. It's like with Mr. Bucket. Yeah. You can feel a force exclamation point coming on. And that's when the eye starts twitching. But then you've also got something interesting I found with Christine

and her sort of specialized kind of cleverness. Yeah. A lot more annoying in this part, didn't she? She didn't really do much apart from faint. I think she spends most of this section unconscious. There's a little sigh from Christine and she folded up into a faint, but she managed at Agnes Nosed Sally to collapse in a way that probably didn't hurt when she hit the ground and which sewed off her dress to the best effect.

Yeah. She was also like really mean to Agnes in the beginning. She was really mean to Agnes in the beginning. I'm not defending Christine in this section, but it's her kind of mask of being a sweet and frivolous and sparkling Christine that simply doesn't understand that she's being an ass while having that kind of special cleverness of managing to faint to show off the dress and knowing how to get to where she is.

And it's a different sort of, especially when you look at that, then having that dynamic I was talking about last week between Agnes and Christine, especially with Granny calling Agnes out and saying, you're trying to live someone else's life for them. That's not a good thing to be doing. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. It's nice that near the end Agnes is still like

willing to go all out to save Christine from whatever salt cell is likely to do. Yeah. I like that. Even though she's really pissed off with her by this point. Understandably pissed off with her at that point. I wonder if they keep in touch. I like to think they might. Just like really very mismatched letters.

I bet Christine writes on scented paper. Oh yes. I like that maybe Perdita's got herself some black note paper though. I hope so. Or at least like black around the edges. That's probably more convenient to write on. Do you know what? I saw that in Phantom of the Opera and I was thinking to myself,

oh, I'd like some black around the edges note paper. But then I thought about it. I was like, that seems like something that maybe's for debts. Yeah, quite possibly. Funeral invitations, you know. Traditionally, but if it looks cool, just. Just scare people. Yeah.

Also, I would assume if I got a letter from you on black edge note paper that you weren't writing to me to inform me of a funeral. Because I would assume. Yeah, I probably just text you. I feel like you'd text me. I mean, that seems insensitive, but listeners should know that calling to Anna would be extremely cruel. Yeah, and I don't prefer the letter.

All the text. Look, I went through a tough year and now I just, my sister now has to open all phone calls with no one's died. Yeah. Yes. So this whole theme of masks and identity that runs through it is brilliant as you see masks beginning to slip, especially with Saltzala,

that when he kind of comes out as the mad man, his mask of being the one who's very calm and controlled and intelligent is what's slipped. And. Henry slugs are slipped as well by the end there. Yes, I forgot to mention Henry in this one. God can cast off. Can cast off, can cast off his head.

Henry casting it off at the end and just accepting being exactly who he is is a brilliant moment, which actually really brings me onto the next section, the payoff of the foreshadowing I talked about in episode one. Oh yeah. And I can't remember which bits I talked about. I made it into the final episode because I know we cut some because I gave away all the Saltzala stuff.

I only cut out that one sentence about Saltzala, you said. Oh, okay, cool. I can't remember what I said. Okay. In general. But I went back to my notes. The chandelier still being hinted at throughout the entire thing and Henry Lawson's mother points it out.

And then it doesn't actually fall. I know. Do you know what? It seems so obvious that it would, that even though I've read this book loads of times, I still thought it would. Yeah. I just remembered that it had and it hadn't.

I hope someone might have fixed it. It's so ingrained. Well, that's the thing. I kind of like that. I like thinking that maybe it did fall after everyone had gone home and they just all went in by the back next morning and went, fuck. Oh yeah.

Fine. Well, at least we have a lot of cellar money. A little foreshadowing moment, but that I liked, which I mentioned where we're back many centuries ago. Not long after the Bible. Yeah. Jacob lived in the land in Cane. Oh, that's a little musical.

That is a musical I can sing along with. I can't find. Oh yeah. Henry Slug talking. Sorry. Henry Slug, in the early section of the book, do you have any idea how hard it is to not burst into this now? Yes.

Because I'm not. There's one more angel in heaven. Oh no, not that one, Jesus. Oh, I want to watch that now. God, I love that. No, it's on something that I've got, I'm sure. I think it's all on YouTube. I used to have it on VHS.

I pretty much nearly wore the tape out to me a long time to realise why I was so into the narrator. Yeah. I think I've come to the conclusion I want to be her. I think I'm leaning further that way. That's what I thought when I was younger. It's gone all the way there. That's what I thought when I was younger,

and then I grew up and realised I was a raging queer. I like that my queer inspiration came from something so biblical. If I ever went on the stage, I would want that. That is the part I want in a play, it's the narrator in Joseph and the multi-whatsit. Clearly, I'm going to get it. I'll get that part, not knowing what I did. And it was red.

No, okay, right, no. What are we talking about? Four shadowing. Oh, Henry Slug. Henry Slug. In the first section of the book, they were talking about growing up with a gutter and said that he shared a drain with two other families

and a man who juggled eels. Oh, yeah. And this is paid off right at the end when Mrs. Lorsie recognises Henry Slug and explains to her son, well, you know I always said your father was Mr. Lorsie, the eel juggler. And...

Well, I assume had died some time in Henry Lorsie's early childhood. Yeah. He didn't seem like that bothered in the half-second reaction shot we got. But yes, I thought that was a really lovely build-up and payoff that we got there. I didn't notice it well done. How did the eel juggler not stay in your mind?

Is Pratchett any other book, obviously, it would, but like eel juggler, yeah, that seems right. Moving as eel juggler, both times, I noticed that connection, the foreshadowing and what have you, and noted it down. And it was only when I was literally writing this into my notes today that I started picturing trying to juggle eels and realised quite how ridiculous it was.

Yeah, yeah. Because they're just sort of... Thwack. Not very aerodynamic. Eel's very interesting animals, and I'm not going to start talking about them now, but they are. We don't know what...

Where are they spawned? We don't know. No, they just... We just don't know. They just happen. No one's found it. Eels just happen. Eels just happen.

Like, bees don't. We really need to change the subject before I start singing that eel song from The Mighty Boosh. Oh, yeah, we really do. Don't do that for God's sake. So, obviously, the big foreshadowing thing... Stop filming the microphone. Sorry, I got really excited there.

Blang! That's your version of 5 exclamation marks. No, I just really wanted to get us off eels. It's a bit of an eel juggler, if you know what I mean. Climbed into box number eight with the eel juggler, if you know what I mean. Do a bit of plinge theory of an evening. Oh, I don't know what I'm describing, but it is deviant. It was the eel juggler in box eight with the plunger.

Sorry, did you have any more points? Yeah, yeah. No, I was going to talk about the big foreshadowing, which is that Saltzala was the bad guy all along. Yeah, yeah, no. That makes more sense. And it starts early. You know, you've got Saltzala talking about the fact

in the tones of one who knows for a fact he's much more intelligent than anyone else in the room. And I like that sort of built in so early because his whole sort of madness comes from, God, opera is ridiculous, and I'm the only one clever enough to see it. Yeah. But it goes along with Saltzala being the person who says,

a man who wears evening dress all the time, lurks in the shadows and occasionally kills people, then sends the whole notes writing maniacal laughter. Five exclamation marks, again, I noticed. We have to ask ourselves, is this the career of a sane man? Which at the beginning, you read Saltzala saying that, and you think, oh, Saltzala's being a sarcastic asshole. That's what this character does.

You read that again at the end of the book, but he knows he's fucking lost it. Yeah, he's managed to separate his two sides pretty well, isn't he? Yeah, he has fully accepted that sanity is out the window and has kind of embraced it by being a dick about that side of himself. Yeah. It's definitely like worth noting that he could have gotten away with a lot of money before now.

He could have just left. He doesn't need to be here still fucking with stuff. If his actual motive was what he said it was, which was to get out of here with money, he could have gone there. He's part of the narrative. Yeah, and he was just as swept up in the story as Andrew was as everyone apart from the witches were.

And I think it's incredibly good writing to have that. It's not the biggest shock reveal in the world. Saltzala's written as a bit of a villain. He's obviously not a nice sympathetic character. But it's such a good reveal because it shadowed so early on. Yes. And it works. But in a way that really doesn't...

You can read that bit in guess. No. It's like an opposite for shadowing almost, isn't it? It's not trying to throw you off. It's not a red herring, but I don't know. It's subtle and it's clever and it's very good writing and I like it. That's my big central thesis of this one. I really like this book. I think it's good.

I do. I think it's one of the overrated gems of Discworld as I've heard. I know a lot of characters die in it, but it is, as you were saying, a bit of a lower stakes one, especially for the witches. This is very local drama. Yeah, this is very small and localised. You and I were talking, not on the podcast the other day, about the fact that it's sometimes like,

we wish we'd have more episodes of our favourite shows where we just watch the characters have a nice day. Like sometimes low stakes is nice. Absolutely. Did you have anything else to say on it before we... I liked that it ended with the same kind of descriptions of autumn as it started with. It ends with autumn's little chores being described

and Granny getting home and doing that. Well, it's also topped and tell by the fire, of course. Yes. Fire, autumn, plot, autumn fire. Yes, it's very nicely bookended. Yes. And books began. I liked the description of the rain as they were going back, actually.

A kind of fat mist. Yeah. We know what that is. We know that very well. Right, well, I think that's all I can manage to bullshit my way through. Francine, do you have an obscure reference finial for me? I do, and you'll be pleased to know it's a lot more compact than last week's. I liked last week's Mianga.

Mianga, I like it. An irked miander. You don't know how to do makeup. I distempered our privy, didn't I? When they're talking about nannyogs, many roles in the opera suddenly. I only knew distemper as a word for disease. Yeah.

Apparently it's also a method of painting. Pigments are mixed with water and binder, with chalk or lime. It's a very early form of whitewash, and it's a bit shit. It's really only suited for interiors as it's not very hard wearing. You can't wash it very well. The meaning does ultimately share a root with the disease definition, though.

So, distemperare. Yeah, that's about right. Latin meant mix in the wrong proportions. And so, in a disease sense, that meant an imbalance of the humours. And distemper, in this case, is like in contrast to tempera, which is a far longer lasting method of painting with properly bound pigments and such. No.

I enjoy that. Two paragraphs instead of an entire page. That was good, though. I think that's all we've got to say. Yeah. That's not entirely true. We could quite easily talk bollocks for at least another hour. Oh, yeah.

I've got lots and lots of pages of notes that didn't make it into my typed-up notes. Same, same. There were elephants that I could have made an irrelevant, irrelevant reference to, but I couldn't be bothered. That's fair. We should keep the listeners on their toes. We can't have them expecting an irrelevant elephant whenever they want one. That is not the nature of the irrelevant elephant.

Anyway. Right, yeah. That's all we can manage to say on Masquerade. That's so late. Because I know you need to go and eat a bowl of pasta. We are going to take a couple of weeks off. We will be back in your ears on, I believe, the 4th of October. Yes, the 4th, with our first episode on Feet of Clay.

Yeah. Revisiting the watch. I can't believe we're there already. That to me seems very much like, oh, we're in it now. That feels very, we're in it now. In that two week break, however, if you are on our Patreon, you can expect an episode where we go down the rabbit hole. I'm talking about fairy tales this month,

if that's the sort of thing that interests you. Sort of thing that interests me, Joanna. I can't wait to try and edit down my research to something that won't be three hours long. I'm going to get so carried away. In the meantime, dear Lesnar, you can follow us on Instagram at the true shall make ye fret on Twitter at make ye fret pod. On Facebook at the true shall make ye fret.

You can join our subreddit community, r slash t t s m y f. You can email us your thoughts, queries, castles, albatrosses, arias and snacks, the true shall make ye fret pod at gmail.com. And as I mentioned, if you would like to support us financially, head over to patreon.com forward slash the true shall make ye fret and then you can send us some hard earned pennies in exchange for all sorts of bonus nonsense. And until next time, dear Lesnar,

a few sparks flew up towards the stars. She looked around proudly. Isn't this nice, she said. You go down the ladder first so I don't see your drawers. For a second, I forgot that was a line in the book and I thought you were just suggesting like, you fuck up before I do. That's just how I say goodbye now.