The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret - 88: The Fifth Elephant Pt. 3 (The Cheese Course of Cosmic Horror)

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret is a podcast in which your hosts, Joanna Hagan and Francine Carrel, read and recap every book from Sir Terry Pratchett’s Discworld series in chronological order.   This week, Part 3 of our recap of “The Fifth Elephant”. Trials! Tragedy! Trousers!Find us on the internet:Twitter: @MakeYeFretPodInstagram: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretFacebook: @TheTruthShallMakeYeFretEmail: [e-mail]: www.patreon.com/thetruthshallmakeyefretWant to follow your hosts and their internet doings? Follow Joanna on twitter @joannahagan and follow Francine @francibambi Things we blathered on about:Depressed Teens and Russian Folktronica | r/HobbyDrama - redditMoscow [LYRICS] - Natasha, Pierre & the Great Comet of 1812 - YouTube Exploring Scone Palace in Perthshire, Scotland - YouTube Joanna with false moustache - TTSMYFCatherine the Great w. Dana Schwartz - You’re Wrong AboutDire wolves were real—and even stranger than we thought - National Geographic   Marquess of Queensberry Rules - BritannicaThree Sisters - WikipediaUncle Vanya - WikipediaWestminster Stone theory - Wikipedia Treacle mines - Oxford Reference The Treacle Mines of England - British Food: A HistoryRemain Indoors (with David Mitchell & Jonathan Dryden-Taylor) | Rule Of Three on Acast  Music: Chris Collins, indiemusicbox.com 

I mean, I'll Google that in the break. Have you consumed any interesting media this week? So the Obi-Wan finale aired yesterday. It was good. Good. Hesitant. It's very difficult to talk about without spoiling it. Oh, okay, okay.

But it suffers slightly from because of the fact it's a prequel. So timeline wise, it's set between episode three and episode four. Yeah. So between Anakin, like, getting his legs cut off and becoming Darth Vader and then... Spoiler. No, I'm joking. Spoilers for movies that came out like 20 years ago.

And it's so small when like Obi-Wan meets Luke and all of that stuff. Well, not meets Luke. They know each other already. So it's very difficult for me. It's starting to sound like the Somerset skywalkers. Oh, yes. Do you know the skywalkers? Yes, I'm going to hide.

Tell them to get the big ball back. I'm going to hide this guy's child from him by giving the child to his family. So he's got the same fucking surname. That works. Anyway, so it just suffers a bit from the fact that none of the peril feels that perilous, which I think they kind of tried to overcompensate by killing a character that was created for this show. And it was like, well, that's it because that was like a really avoidable death.

But then you've had like 50 million other characters survive getting stabbed in the gut with a lightsaber. Right. Even though quite gone gin died from getting stabbed in the gut with a lightsaber way back in the Phantom Menace. True, but, but of course, some people die from just falling over on the curb. Well, true.

And if that were universally true, I would be dead so many times over. But no, overall it was a good show and it hit a cameo and a mean moment in the last episode that it had earned. Like if it had done either of those in the first episode, that would have felt really cringy, but it hit them with exactly the right moment to put all the nostalgia strings and what have you. So it's mostly good. Glad to hear it.

I've been considering re-listening to the Magnus Archives. I am like super behind on all the podcasts I listen to because I kind of am still playing catch up from going to Fakus, I guess. But the Magnus Archives. An administrative nightmare. It is weirdly stressful. Yeah, you need to stop having activities, I think, because sorry, I keep seeing your name brackets, Miss Crinn in the corner of

the screen that's making me very happy. But I'm still like very, very slowly working my way through the Magnus Archives. It is weirdly good for falling asleep too. Like I know it's full of horror, but he's got a really soothing voice. He does have a soothing voice, but you will be missing in things. Well, yeah, no, I keep having this is why it's taking me a long time to work because I have to listen to every episode like three times.

Yeah, got you. It's maybe not the most logical way to consume content. It's a cosmic horror logic is not a part of it. Are you talking about the Magnus Archives or my attempt at a podcast listening schedule? Both. There is a sense of cosmic horror. I feel like that was something I wanted to talk about during this

soft open and it's just so I saw on Twitter, someone has written a master's thesis about representation of queer characters in this world, which I will link to in the show notes. I haven't read the whole thing yet because it's very big and the text is very small and there's no way to comfortably zoom in on it on a phone. Is it a PDF? Yeah, basically to print it for you. No, it's very big.

And then I'll just have a PDF of someone's master's thesis in my house. Like, I will, I am going to read it. I'm looking forward to it. I'm just reading it very piecemeal. You can send PDF to your Kindle Boy. I keep forgetting that. Anyway, yeah, but I'll link to it in the show notes. I'm looking forward to having a lot of thoughts and opinions and probably

putting it somewhere in my podcast reference pile. That's a good point. I'm looking at this list of talking points today and I don't see anything on gender. Where's the premise gender? It's under cheery. Oh, okay. Cool. I promise to talk about gender front scene.

It's okay. You have to. I stopped highlighting the relevant bits because I thought you had it. Oh my God. Sorry, that just reminds me. I literally just saw the funniest headline on Twitter and I think I already quite tweeted it. Oh, now you don't want to load.

Screw you. I find it. They, them, summer, a new far left extremist plot to undermine American democracy. Subheadline experts warn that the deodipionized, I don't know what that word means, they's are a far greater threat than Islamic terrorists. Oh, is this a satire rule?

I don't know. Like, well, no, it's from Fox News. So it's satire as much as I guess anything is satire cosmic horror. Yeah. But so it's officially hot them summer. Fuck hot girl summer. Well, this is a screenshot. So I can't go further down that rabbit hole and I'm thankful for that.

Yeah. No, I don't actually want to read a Fox News article. I'm just embracing the fact that I'm apparently a threat to American democracy. So they slash them is a movie and it's going to be about that. That article. Oh, right. It's a horror flake starring Kevin Bacon.

Oh, yeah. No, it's a conversion camp. So it'll be some weird psychological term. I remember seeing the trailer for the film and it actually looked quite fun. Like it looked like campy horror, not like horror horror. Yeah. But I'm still taking they them summer to mean that it's hot them summer. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I think that's necessary. Um, I'm trying to think of anything else, vaguely Pratchett or Well, we've got a pretty long podcast ahead of us and last week's soft open was obnoxiously long. So we could just plow on. Do you want to make a podcast? Yeah, let's make a podcast. Oh, wait, I need to ask you something first.

Sorry. Do you want some pointies for the room? I will break up with you. Am I the asshole? No, I'm not. I know this. I don't need to ask reddit. That was the last time, I promise.

I do want some. That's the thing, Joanna. That's what really like add salt to the wound. I do want some pointies for the room and I don't think you're going to give me any. I could really eat a Pringle right now. Yeah, by a Pringle. I mean an entire tube in under five minutes without really noticing that I've done it. So now I've got a slightly stale custard donut in the fridge, which I'm going to eat while I make coffee.

So, right, I'll see you in a minute. Hello and welcome to the tree shall make you fret a podcast in which we are reading and recapping every book from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series one us time in chronological order. I'm Joanna Hagan and I'm front scene Carol. This is part three of our discussion of the fifth elephant, the climax, the climax, the dramatic conclusion, the third act, the denouement, where we look at note on spoilers. However, before we crack on, we are a spoiler light podcast, obviously very heavy spoilers for the book, the fifth elephant, we will be announcing who done it.

But we will avoid spoiling any major future events in the Discworld series and we're saving any in all discussion of the final discord novel, the shepherd's crown until we get there. So you dear listener can come on the journey with us running in your underpants through deep sleight snow. Yeah, I know it's a slight repeat on the last one. I feel it's important to mention the underpants. It is very important to we all take a moment to picture Sam Vines and his underpants. I can't, Joe, I don't.

I don't have the emotional capacity to develop a full crush on another fictional character ever since John Sims. I thought you already fancied Vines. It's kind of a platonic love. Oh, no, I'm just into it. Right. But like, I mean, I guess I'm getting old enough now that it could turn into more. But yeah, as I say, I've got limited emotional depth.

Well, I'm like also quite deeply in love with Lady Sibyl. So like it would be like a throuple thing. Oh, no, no, you made it bad. Just with I hate the word throuple. I can't I'm adding it to the list. I don't understand why he's when Trio is a perfectly good word that it exists. But is it me being bigoted against polyamory if I if I ban throuple? Considering no one takes our banned word list particularly seriously.

As far as I know, the word leatherous is still out in the world. I know, but I don't want you to feel persecuted. We would like to reassure our listeners that we are totally OK with polyamory. Just that word's kind of weird. Yeah, just just say Trio. It's fine. Well, Triad, Triad's a good one. Triad's pretty good. Triad has like mafia vibes though, right?

Yeah. Anyway, we're staying on track this week, Francine. OK. Listeners will never know how off-peast we went last week. Some will. Patreon listeners got most of it. I really didn't do a lot to the video. I don't usually. Sometimes if we've gone particularly egregiously off track, I will save the

video watchers from us, but not this time. Amazing. It was a half hour difference in the episode. I'm not surprised. Listeners, join our Patreon if you want to hear us talk a lot of extra politics. It's not Discworld related, but it does exist in the world. Right, follow up. We had a brief moment of speculation about whether or not BCBs had been

explained and when they got explained in this section and I just wanted to clarify that on page 408 when Sybil is negotiating fat treaties with the low King, she mentions BCBs and clarifies to vimes that that means burnt crunchy bits in this case, mostly unbelievably huge and ancient animals deep fried as opposed to bits of detached rind. So I suppose this is the equivalent of preserving them in amber. Yeah, yeah. The peat bogs and things.

Yeah. Poor deep fried mammoths. That's that's Scottish too. I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have anything to follow up on? No, I already corrected my spoon mispronunciation.

So I think we had a couple comments actually on Reddit. Hold on. Where are we? Yes. Batsy clad said that their favorite reference to the previous books and how vimes has improved is his closing his eyes as he lets cigar because back in men arms, Dr. Creases pointed out to him about night vision when when they were in the

sewer near the end. Ah, so they say it's just subtle thing. They like how I'm continues to learn. That's a clever little detail. And I totally missed that. Thank you. Batsy clad. I believe Batsy clad is also the person who as present because they caught up

fully to the podcast made us a little playlist of Terry Pratchett's appearance on desert island discs, which is in the Reddit. Oh, sweet. Sweet. Yeah. Now I've put mark that good. Thank you. And oh, yes.

And angels. Angels on fire. Angels on one five. It says. Yeah. That's what I was about to say fire as well. With one of the users that I miss read completely re pronunciation and they have linked to somewhere where an actual Scottish person says that word.

So I will link to that in the show notes in case I'm still doing it a bit wrong. I think Pete on our Patreon as well confirm the the northern pronunciation, which is a bit more like scurn. Okay. Well, you can tell that my northern accent does not come out willingly, but only when I've had a certain amount to drink. Certain amount to drink.

And if possible, a phone call with your uncle. Yes. Which also my uncle doesn't listen to this podcast, but shout out to him because he got me a really cool first edition of small gods for my birthday. Oh, yeah. No, it is very cool. Yeah. That was printed in various nedmonds.

For me are the best place. We are the best place. Things, more things should be printed here. I think the one you got me was printed and buried. Does that mean it's a proper first edition? Yes. I think that means it's also a first impression. I'm not going to go deep into the difference because I don't know it well

enough. I don't collect rare books for the sake of trying to sell them on and stuff. So yeah. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, in that case, Francine, would you like to tell us what happened previously on the fifth elephant? Certainly. Bandit strike and more pork's ambassadorial coaches on route to

Bianca. Luckily, the ambassador is a seasoned street fighter and his Clark, a ruthless killer. The retinue makes it to the embassy after some aggressive bureaucracy, but Vimes' diplomatic duties start to overlap with his calling as a cop as he visits the low king to be. The skewn of stone has been stolen, even if the high up low downed wolves are reluctant to admit it.

Back above ground, Vimes visits a teetotal vampire and a pack of well-bred werewolves before returning to a concussed Igor and a spy room full of fat secrets. Later, in a vast cavern dazzling with candlelight, civil hobnobs while Vimes is shuned where the skewn should be. He returns to the reception just in time to rugby tackle royalty as detritus catches a deadly ball of falling wax and fire. And then darkness.

Also in a go died and I forgot to put that in there. What a dramatic ending completely ruined. Beautiful. I'm going to apologize for the summary now. I've been working really hard over the last like couple of months to edit these down as much as possible. You've done very well. Yeah, not this week.

Okay, so much fucking happens in this section and I wanted to keep everything in. That was much longer than my usual previously on and that was only the middle section. So I'm I understand. Yep. This went over a page and that was with me fiddling with the margins. Anyway, I'm going to beat myself.

In this section. Vimes wakes in darkness clad only in a shirt and breeches in a diminutive cell with nothing but a few matches and a hidden weapon to his name. D visits and explains that with Inigo's body found in the mechanisms of the fallen chandelier finds and indeed dank more pork have fallen under suspicion. Cherry and detritus are under house arrest at the embassy and D hints

that Vimes has a hidden friend. Vimes throws away his shot fights his way out and finds himself falling as he attempts to climb out with a little elect with a little aerial assistance from Lady Margolotta. He finds himself in the frozen forest after a rough night. He warms up in a hot spring, but a naked Wolfgang arrives to mock his civilized draws and amidst a smuggling a false scorn in. In and more coaches civilized draws.

My new fashion brand. The hunt begins and a scantily clad Vimes hurries off with a head start. Meanwhile in the city knobby man's the picket lines and veterinary enjoys the quiet life as both the police and the populace realized that Vimes might just go spare. Three sisters look out over the cherry orchard as anger in her Wolfpack realize the game is a foot while Vimes makes it to the sisters barn and receives a sharp axe and much needed pair of trousers.

He sets a trap and leaves a few werewolf singed as he gets in a boat and sets off down the river only to go over the falls as death observes uncertainly trapped in a tree. Vimes and Wolfgang exchange words as Wolf admits to killing sleeps and skimmer as the sun sets and Vimes fights his way out of the tree carrot into seeds. The wolves chase off the werewolves and anger catches up the commander as they warm up by the fire.

They start sledding back to the embassy pausing only to grab what they can from the Klax Tower. Back in the city colon crunches sugar cubes alone while on the sled Vimes realizes there is no stolen scone. They sneak back into the embassy and Tantanese unhappy but it's like more pork so early standing on and Vimes sees red when he hears Sibbles with Baroness Seraphine. At Wolf Hall Sibble breaks out when she starts hearing shouts

and detritus blows the bloody doors off and then some as Angwa stands up to her mother. A fight breaks out on the bridge as Tantanese takes a wolf to the chest carrot takes a beating from Wolfgang Gavin leaps into the fray and gas boat goes for the soft spot sending all three over and into the river. Fuck me that was difficult to summarise. He did very well.

Thank you. As detritus gets Tantanese and Carrot to the closest Igor and Vimes claims the counterfeit scone from Seraphine gas boat meets death but lives and sends out the howl for the dearly departed Gavin. Lady Margolotta attends a meeting as Vimes and his rag tag bunch of more porky and misfits head to the embassy foes gone in tow.

He's sent a Klax out and Sibbles sings and sets a precedent before they're taken to the low King. Reese is sure the scones the real thing and Albrecht agrees as D's revealed to be a feminine traitor. Vimes insists that the scones are fake and that the real one was smashed but the acts of these years provides a handy explanation. Sibbles negotiates a greasy deal and Vimes finally sleeps.

The next day as they prepare to pack Vimes can't shake a suspicion about Wolfgang as they get ready for the coronation and Sibbles makes an announcement just before the somewhat damaged werewolf arrives. The embassy Igor takes a nasty hit and anger gets her claws out before Vimes and Tantanese attempt an explosive arrest that takes Wolfgang down for good. Lady Margolotta arrives one last chat before Vimes heads to

the coronation and Carrot and Angua gets some clarity and closure. Vimes sees the King, Sibbles gets a silver ring, Cherry and Detritus get gold handshakes and a revelation and the King gives Vimes an eternal axe. In the morning a young Igor arrives to join the watch and Sam and Sibbles elect to take the long way home. Finally, Gaspoed gets picked up, Carrot and Angua make it back

to the city just in time to shout Colin back into himself. Yay! Too much happened. How dare they? It was good there, right? Action packed. Oh no, I fucking love this book so much and the last third of it is really why.

The moment when you get to ostensibly the end of a plot and there's still 50 pages like, What else is going to happen? Dun-dun-dun! Helicopter and loincloth watch. Lady Margolotta is this week's helicopter because she is literally flying. That's better than usual, yep.

And I did rescue him with the aerial assistance thing. The honour of the loincloth this week of course goes to the gloomy and purposeless trousers of Uncle Vanya, which I'm now going to pop on a mantle piece and we might come back to them in app three. It's just like a really, really obvious pair of trousers. Oh, this guy's gone. Where?

Sorry. Oh, thank you. Should we do quotes? Yes. It started badly, hesitantly, but it picked up and got stronger, richer. And when he paused for breath, the howl went on and on passing from throat to throat across the forest.

The sound wrapped him as he slid off the log and struggled on towards higher ground. It lifted him over the deepest snow. It wound around the trees, a platting of many voices becoming something with a life of its own. He remembered thinking, maybe it'll even get as far as Ain't More Pork. Maybe it'll get much further than that.

Now that was one of two bits that made me cry. I was, I assumed when I read all the Gavin Death stuff that you were probably going to have a little tear shed moment. Just that one and the other one's my quote. So it's when Angua and Carrot are talking after they've just buried Gavin, actually, and Angua says in reference to what if she went all mental like Wolfgang? Well, if it happened, if it did, would you do what Vimes did?

Carrot, would it be you who picked up a weapon and came after me? I know you won't lie. I've got to know. Would it be you? A little snow slid down from the trees. The wolves watched. Carrot looked up for a moment at the gray sky and then nodded.

Yes. She sighed. Promise. I love that moment so much. It makes me feel some sort of way. Just the idea of like, wanting it to be the person you loved who takes you out. Yeah.

Yeah. I try not to constantly reference Buffy on the podcast, but it very much reminds me of the end of season two of Buffy where she's got to stab Angel just as she gets his soul back. Oh. That's a very sad moment. And then she runs away in her dungarees of sadness. Dungarees of sadness.

We'll put them next to the gleamy trousers of Uncle Varnia in the most depressing wardrobe in this multiverse. On a happier note then. Oh, yes. Yes. Do we have some honorable mentions, I think? We have some honorable mentions to some of the best puns we've had so far in the Discworld.

There is a saying it won't get better if you pick it. You know, it's a bad pun. If I highlight it in my ebook and send a screenshot to Duran, I'm going boo, which I think has only happened two or three times during the whole podcast. But we have to mention it here. Oh, yes, it's so bad. It's definitely good.

The reference to Sybil's sharp non-sacritaurs. I didn't pick up on that. Very good. Yeah. I'm never sure how to say secretary at the best of time. And as I know, it's a sacreterre pun. They are just non-sacritaurs. Secreters will always be sacreters to me now.

That's good. I like that. And what was the battered to death one? Oh, it's, um, I'm just thinking about all of the prehistoric animals that fell into that. Falling from that is like battered to death. It's funny to feel like hysterical. Yeah.

That is the kind of fun you come up with when you are sleep deprived and hysterical. And you had a simile mention. Oh, yes. Um, when they're talking about like the various resources in the area finds this thinking about the dull ingredients in the pudding of civilization, which I feel like is a fitting end course to our previously, uh, talked about soup of the

afternoon and tincture of the night and the pudding of civilization. What's the cheese course going to be? Cosmic horror existentialism. The cheese course of cosmic. I now want to throw a cosmic horror themed cheese party. The cheese of cosmic horror on the watercracker of existentialism. Perfect. All right, let's go on to characters.

Yeah, I think we're better. So I thought we'd start with vimes, but I'm actually, I could literally do like a full two hour episode just on vimes in this third of the book. So I saved quite a lot of his stuff about his anger for later. I made one note that I'm pretty sure wouldn't be in your later thing, which is that I like that he's made waking up confused into a personality. Yeah.

That happens so many times in this book. I like that he's taking pride in his Ankh-Morpork, Ankh-Morpork armour, even if it was definitely made by Uberwaldian dwarfs with Uberwaldian steel. Yes. But like he's still determined to cling to a bit of Ankh-Morpork. Shame the tights go at the knees. Shame the tights go at the knees. I am also using this to shoehorn in another line I really liked, which is,

there are a lot of things that could profitably be done in a minute, but most of them couldn't be done with no hands while hanging in darkness over a long drop. That's a good one. Can you think of any what that I could profitably do in a minute while hanging over a long drop with your hands tied up in the darkness? I can't think of anything to say that isn't ridiculously filthy. So I'm just going to move us on.

What? All right. Yeah, let's move on. I'm, I don't want to know. Jesus. I keep a lot of my mind away from you. Appreciated, I guess. Who was next?

We've got similar. No, I had a couple of other problems moments. I really liked one of which is his again, taking a bit of Ankh-Morpork pride in the national sense of humor. Yeah. Explaining, you'll know when we've got onto the famous Ankh-Morpork sense of humor, when I start talking about breasts and farting, you smug bastard. Yeah.

Yeah. It's very Benny Hill. It is very Benny Hill. Oh my gosh. The chase through the snow with the Benny Hill soundtrack. And there's one where Gaspo is hanging off of one of them. I didn't give Gavin his own section because he's not doing a lot, but there's a nice moment where Vines, obviously, I know he's dying and stuff.

The list got long. Vines has a moment when he meets Gavin and he's recognized the look on Gavin's face. It's the look you've got on the face of a gentleman lounging on a corner by a bank watching the Cummings and going and seeing how the place work. Trying to imagine that on a wolf's face. Anyway, Sibyl, let's talk Sibyl. God, I love her so much. Finally got a line out.

Yes. It's officially revealed that she has got a bun in the oven. Wow. I could see your brain working there to say it in like a way that you didn't find it tasteful. I love that. She is with child. I was trying to find a way that didn't sound gross, but everything like pregnancy

like no offense to any of our pregnant or have children listeners. It's just it really freaks me out. Like to me, that is like cosmic body or a shit. Yeah, same, especially since I learned about placenters. Yeah, no. Anyway, but apart from being pregnant, she also just is very fucking cool in this section. She is the actual diplomat in the relationship and I guess that now I

must have known that. I love when she's having to deal with Seraphine and she's realizing she literally cannot make herself like her and like this is the woman who can bring herself to like knobby knobs. And that takes braiding. Despite all of her distaste, she still says, oh, I'm terribly sorry when she clobbers a werewolf with an iron bar. Just a reflex.

And it's this kind of moment of she's the best. Something I also noticed about this book that I think a Sibyl gets to do a lot more than she has in the last couple of watch books. But she also her size is very rarely referred to and that's quite nice. Yeah, I think the only time I mentioned it was when the bar was moving. Yeah. And I think there's something about like the blue dress and women of a certain age stuff.

But yeah, that's incorrect. It's not kind of punchline either way. It has been other books and that pleases me greatly. Yes. Yeah, it's a matter of fact rather than the moment where she really loses it when Vimee saw Sibyl was loaded and ready to fire. Yes. And and this is one of the few times I size is referenced and in a nice

not punchline way where she's talking about the fact that because she she's big, she tried to make herself seem small to make other people around her feel bigger. She's been bred to get on with people and be nice. And Vimee's is very calmly explaining we've been having a lovely run in the woods dear. Oh, did you like Seraphine's little backhand a line about if he's alive, we'll do something about it like a kind of hinting that they'd save him but

like obvious double meaning of. Yeah, I like that the werewolves are kind of the least subtle and they're very much trying to be very clever and political and kind of being a bit done with it. Yeah, for sure. Oh, actually, before I forget the I had one Seraphine thought, which was do you think it's a bit odd that we didn't see her reaction to Wolfgang's death? Or do you think that would have just brought it all down and been weird?

I feel like it would have really affected the tone of the end of the book really. That's such a moment for I don't I don't want to say like I was more important we see Vimee's reaction that we see Wolfgang's mother's but we did get Angla's we did get Angla's and it was mostly relief. Yeah, although I did again. I thought like Vimee's throw away I put him down thing to Angla was a bit like I know he was Angla's enemy but it's like come on dude.

I know you're doing a diehard but also you just had that thought process about not doing a diehardy line. Yeah, maybe it's bottled up wasn't it? Yeah. Anyway, sorry back to Sybil. Well, Sybil on Vimee's there's a couple of just really great moments which is when Vimee's is doing the Wolfgang's bottle Kavi you know the type won't walk away and you know and Lady Sybil saying I think I recognize

the type with an irony that failed to register with Vimee's until some days later and I think it's like the next page it's I need to talk to you without you running off after werewolves. She said this as if it were a minor character flaw. Yes, can you please stop tapping your foot while we can you please stop running off to chase werewolves? Thank you. The one I highlighted was built into Sybil's expression was the unquestioning

assumption that he could do something. That's a really lovely moment. I love their relationship in this. Everything between them is nice. Yeah, it's like realistically nice as well for their for Vimee's personality type. He still can't like kiss his wife in public or like whatever he's doing his best.

There's no softiness to it. It's a very, very sweet and honest thing. It makes me happy. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. And then are we moving on to Churi? Yeah, let's do Churi. Cause cause I had I had some feelings. Feeling the moment that always made me quite.

It's the moment right at the end where they're getting ready to go to the coronation and she's wearing trousers and she's dressed like a normal dwarf or you know, normal traditional as Vimee says ordinary dwarf clothes, trousers and everything. And he's and he's kind of reassuring like you can wear whatever you want and Churi's response is yeah, I can. I don't have to wear a dress and I shouldn't wear it just because people don't want me to and obviously it's a bit complicated.

But it's really, really relatable. Like obviously just comparing it to my own life, but you know, when I started figuring out it was non-binary, I sort of felt the said like, Oh God, well, I've got to start like presenting really androgynously. And then realized like it's not very you. It's not very me like I'm still going to present them because that's the body shape I've got. I'm not going to try and change the body shape because we worked

very hard to stop having those mental thoughts. And it's just the aesthetic you like and you're good at like also I look hot and I really like looking hot. Yeah. And it's a big moment of the, you know, non-binary people don't owe you androgyny feeling like you relate to a certain gender identity, whether it's Churi's it's not transness, but it's definitely a realization. Yeah.

Yes. Just because I'm female. Yes. All right. Lipstick and mascara, maybe something that maybe feminizes a bit, but I don't have to go the whole hog every time. Yeah. Especially if I'm part, I'm only, I'm not doing it because it's what I

feel comfortable in. I'm doing it to be reactionary. Yeah. And the fact that that realization kind of comes about with after D's moment. Yes. If this, why should she be allowed to? Oh, that was so soft.

Yeah. I've put Churi and D next to each other for a reason, but I like that Churi A, like through the entire book, Reese has only used her proper pronouns and not in a derogatory way. And then that's the little hint at the end as well that she might actually fancy the name of Churi's dressmaker. And like kind of going on to D as well, never doesn't use the correct pronouns.

The moment D has her admittedly very fraught coming out moment, the restarts referring to her as she. Yeah. But yeah, those are my big genderfields is that I very much see myself and Churi in that very specific moment of, I don't have to do it that way. Although I would fully support you if you decided you wanted a large floating beard.

I mean, if I could grow a beard all better to be off. I look so hot with a moustache. It's ridiculous, but they're really helpful. Yeah. I'll, if I can find it, I'll put a link in the show notes. And then you have to drink everything through a straw. And if I want to drink beer with them, it's our thing. We want to joint miss November, pub award one year, do you remember?

Oh my God, we did. Yeah. I don't think I've got a face of me with a moustache, but I've got a face of me that night. I've got a photo of me from, I think the first new years we spent together wearing a corset, a small top pattern of moustache. Yeah. I feel like that was the year.

That's what he said to give a sense for our outfits. I love that picture. Anyway, so yeah, D. D. Oh dear. Oh D. There's a telling moment. I don't know if we talked about D's name last week actually, did we?

I wondered if it's meant to be kind of a reference to John D. That was the only like D I could think of. John D. He was Queen Elizabeth the first like astronomy kind of guy. Oh, okay. Like there was, there's lots of somewhat fictionalized history that he was like trying to uncover the philosopher's stone because she wanted to keep living and.

Do you know if there's, did you manage to think of any round world equivalent to ideas taster? Like what's the synonym there? Like a. Well, I feel like it's kind of, it's not an eminence grease. Like it's not a power behind the throne, but it's someone with a. Direct line. The reason I was thinking it might be a reference to John D.

Is because it's someone who is very much adjacent to the throne has the King has. It's like an advisor, isn't it? But like specifically ideas taster. It's like you're hearing advice from other people and it's going through you first or. Yeah. It's like a weird combination of like I advisor and PR guy.

Yeah. Listeners, if you can think of like a proper, sensible parallel on round world to ideas taster, I'd be really happy because I was trying to think of one. Yes, do you tell us. But but D in what she goes through in this section, there is one line I found interesting considering what we learned about her by the end, which is when she calls cheery dangerously different.

Which I thought was quite telling considering her coming out moment, yeah, that she sees that I suppose coming up shift to the status quo is threatening as much as it's what she needs, even if it's not what she can directly articulate. She wants. Yeah. And how she like calls her a slur just before coming out as well. That's her.

Yes, it's a projecting that hatred back out. Yeah, it's such a difficult scene. And it's things I've seen a lot of queer people go through. Like I really hate the kind of narrative media like, oh, the people doing the homophobic bullying are really just gay. It's like, no, they might just be dicks, but internalized homophobia and internalized transphobia can be a really heavy thing, especially when it's it's what you're raised around.

Yeah. And it can come out in ways like this. And the full rant of the final end of the breakdown of why should they be allowed to do this? I can't. Yeah. And you see how much has been held in. And on the one hand, I'm not like a huge fan of the narrative of like

it could have been handled very badly as this kind of evil trans person thing. And there's been like really, really bad transphobic media like the best example I can think of is like one of the Ace Ventura movies. There's a character that's trans and she's very much the bad guy because she's the evil trans lady that used to be a man and right. Hates herself because of it. I think what I'm imagining that practice kind of at least background thinking on this is there have been a lot of cases where people who turned

out later to be gay have been hugely like damagingly homophobic in places of power. Yes. No, absolutely. I'm not saying that's what Pratchett's doing. I'm saying it. No, yeah. No, I know.

Yeah. It's hard to go past this without pointing that out as like a common badly handled narrative. J.K. Rowling's alter ego also horrible transphobic. Oh, yeah, even more out there than her normal ego. Yeah. Her pen name is the name of the guy that helped come up with conversion therapy.

Yeah. Cute. Yeah. And then she wrote a book where a man dresses up as women to kill people. I'll tell you who doesn't serve a fucking castle while we don't have a castle Joanna. It's J.K. Rowling.

Oh, J.K. Rowling, who claimed that she was being harassed and doxxed because some protestors took a photo outside of her castle. Fucking castle. But like it's listed on fucking Wikipedia that she lives there. I think you can do tours. Anyway, I mean, not that I'm saying we would be the next deserving people on a list.

I'm saying like we deserve more than J.K. Fucking Rowling. Yeah. Anyway, should we move on? Yeah, sorry. She talked about the low King. Yeah. Fucking dark moment.

Like he's kind of willing to do some nasty psychological torture. Yeah. What are you thinking of particularly? When he's got Dee's hands on the stone. Oh, yeah. Do you think like there's the it's going to start burning and he's very calmly asking the questions and starting with questions about iron axe and blood hammer and this kind of rote learning thing.

And then goes switches and where it goes and who gave the order to kill the craftsman and like more pork and doesn't change his tone or his expression. Very clever writing bit though, because it's a great demonstration of how powerful the sconers even though Dean knows it isn't real. And so like the fact of the fake still being the truth. It's a nice little like real violent reinforcement of it. I've held back so far. But now I get to very quickly say power of belief, power of belief.

My favorite theme that practice uses is power of belief. I haven't heard that in ages. Well, I'm very excited to be here. Even if it's during a psychological torture scene. I can I can bring up power of belief right at the end of the show as well. If you like. I've got a little chunk. Okay.

Little chunk of belief in the is it a burnt crispy chunk? I feel like it's a it's a nice sausage baked. It's a well baked chunk. No, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I think that was my fault. So the low King Reese-Reece and anymore on well, we've got the whole I go them for now.

I think maybe the big you. The whole ship of these years thing with the axe or he's explaining that the scone is always the scone even if it's been remade because of course it would naturally last that long. And you know, if you replace the axe's handle and the axe's head, the sugar babes theory, if you replace the entire lineup is the band still the sugar babes. Yep.

Yep. And the answer is yes. The axe was there any significance in like the way it was? It was just a nice axe, wasn't it? Cause all the axes in this book are really like detailed in their description. And so I was trying to look for hidden meaning and I think he just likes describing axes. I feel like there's kind of a hint of, you know, these these are fantasy

parodies and there's a bit of Lord of the Rings to it. I feel like the dwarfs are the closest Lord of the Ring rings parody. Yeah. Like elves go back and forth. Lord of the Ring rings parody. Yeah. Elves go off in a really different direction and obviously humans are very multifaceted, but the dwarves with the mines and the beards and the lack

of obvious women and the axes. Cause you do need a mining axe. Um, slight tangent to Brooklyn 99 watch the episode where razor's going through all the weapon she has in her house and like two Amy and she's like, what don't you have an axe? Every woman should have an axe. And now I feel like I need an axe. I'm not sure if we have one.

We've got machetes, chainsaws, all of that. But I'm not sure if we have an axe. You have got like a whole machete cup, but I'm not sure. I'd be, no, actually I was about to say I'd be more confident with an axe than a machete, but that's not true. I tried log splitting. Like I see it. I'm not very good at it, but there is something really satisfying about

standing there with a massive axe, but it's also kind of terrifying. Like you're really trying to make sure you keep your legs out the way in case you miss. Yeah, I wouldn't do it. There's a whole subgenre and tick tock of. Like hot people. Hot people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know. Okay. Yeah. Did you end up on the lesbian side of it as well? Yeah. Anytime I get on to any kind of thirst, tick tock it immediately takes me to the lesbian version of the first thing. Me too, though.

I don't. For a straight woman, you've got very queer energy. Dungery. You say I'm just hungry. What did you say? Dungeries of fear. Dungeries of sadness. Sadness.

It's my dungeries of sadness. Lady Magalosa. Speaking of, well, maybe actually, I don't know. Yeah, she's like, I feel like pan. I think she's got, yeah, by your pan vibes. I think if you live for that long, you're going to stop. You're going to experiment. Yeah, you're going to play around.

Yeah. Embrace the smorgasbord of, no, right. We're going to stop there. Good. Well then, because I'm not really sure where it was going to end. Like the full smorgasbord of gender. Oh, okay. Of gender, right?

Yeah. I thought you were going to say have sexual possibility. That would have been a much better sentence. The smorgasbord of sexual possibility. There we go. Tight. Tight. Love your sex tape.

Yes. Jay threw a meerkook. So she rescues Vimes and Wolfgang. Yes. Equal Opportunity Helicopter is on Magalosa. Yeah. She's keeping the game going and in the process sort of reveals to Vimes that she's the vampire equivalent of a T Totola.

Yes. Which is a nice concept to bring in. And we've, we even see her at her, the, I guess the vampire equivalent of an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. I didn't make many notes about the meeting itself, which must be just such a weird vibe. I did. I mostly mark the meeting because we get her full name in the

short form anyway. Oh, yes. Lady Magalotta and Maya Katarina are some to Christina von Uberwald, which she's von Uberwald and so are the werewolves. Hmm. Which I feel like is it just, I don't know how the von title works in Round World, but I feel like it's something like of isn't it?

So it's more location based than Cern Amy. Yeah. What's the Russian author you like? Tolstoy. The very famous one Tolstoy. There's a musical version of one of his books. Oh, Natasha Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812. Yeah.

Hold on. I've not listened to the soundtrack of it. I've heard it. I heard it was really good. Obviously, it's a shame it got closed. Oh, did it? Oh, yeah. Very good.

No, there's a, I'll see if I can find the hobby drama post on it because it was like a whole big thing involving Dear Evan Hansen winning a lot of Tonys over that musical, which is terrible because Dear Evan Hansen is a really bad show. I am very willing to yuck anyone's young. The note is bad. Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

So the name is Maria Dmitrievna Acrosimova Countess Natalia Elinitya Rostova. You must call me Natasha. Anyway, that was in that tune in my head. That was a lot of wind up too. I can't remember the fucking characters names. Well, they're long names. Sofia Alexandrovna Rostova.

I hope you enjoyed the Hamilton reference that went in. I did. I did. I did do a finger gun, which listeners won't pick up on because I muted myself, but because usually my finger guns are outrageously loud. I had to choose between a reference to not throwing away my shot or do an M reference.

If you've only got one shot, this is your chat. This opportunity comes once in a lifetime. His palms are sweaty and he's weak. Fats up and spaghetti. No. No, terrible. Sorry. Right.

So Lady Mogulotta has sublimated some of her cravings onto black Scopani cigarettes, which I'm assuming is probably a reference to Sobrani, my preferred wanky cigarette. But I just want to put a pin in something. She says, because we'll come back to this later. She says to Vance, you're good at anger. You save it up for when you need it. I like that anger is a resource.

Pin pinned. And then yeah, fucking Wolfgang. Fucking Wolfgang. Beautiful bit of description at one point. Steam was rising off Wolfgang. He shone in the torchlight. The blonde hair across his shoulders gleamed like a slipped halo. Yeah, I do like that.

That's a nice bit of simile. Do you think he did oil himself up a bit? Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. He could probably just he could probably justify it by saying like you rub grease over yourself to keep warm in the in the cold, right?

And if he's going to be naked all the time, but really he does it because it makes his muscles look shiny. But this concept of like this game, this hunt and anger kind of justifying it with, you know, well, Father did it, but it was, you know, people got their start from it and he played by the rules. Yes. You know, I, I came across a brief reference of apparently Russian nobles used to hunt serfs with their like bores or isn't that?

And I did not go further into that because I ran out of time. So I don't know if that was an actual thing or. I can see it being a thing. Me too. I know that people have done that to Aboriginal people, for instance. Yes. Yeah. Hunting people has definitely happened.

Yes. Yeah. I was just wondering if there was a specific Russian parallel considering into it and follow up next time. What was that? There was a podcast I listened to that talked about like specifically what serfdom was as opposed to say being a servant or a peasant. Oh, it was your wrong about when Danish Swartz came on to talk

about Catherine the Great. They went into in great detail like what it went to be a serf. So if you're interested in that listeners, I'll link to that in the show notes as well. There's a sort of good, I think behind the bastards episode where they go into that for the. Yeah. So the less faint of heart and I'll say.

Not knowing that they cover some pretty gnarly subjects on your wrong about, but they're a lot nicer about it. They are. Even the Dyatlov Passat episode was very lovely. Sorry, I'll stop talking about the fucking Dyatlov Passat. This is your last one. I think it's relevant to this book, but. It is fairly relevant to the truth.

Fine. You're going to have to find another tragic unsolved mystery. There are lots surrounding newspapers. Cool. Right. So that's enough about the Nazi mystery. That's enough about the Nazi. Let's talk about Angwa.

Who's not a Nazi? Way. She even gets a moment of quoting carrot and doing the personal isn't the same as important, which is quite interesting because this is taking her a minute to learn that considering this this whole trip that's coming up here has been very much a personal errand. Yeah.

Yeah. And. I don't know, like it's been it's been a little bit of a journey for her as well, isn't it? But it is. I feel like she gets a bit separated from the action, especially in this last section. There's one moment when carrot's been attacked by Wolfgang and

then Gavin takes over and Vimes expects Angwa to be furious and instead she's crying. And then she also has the later kind of crying breakdown after she's fought Wolfgang and she. I was about to say she did get in on that action. She does get in there and she does have a very good fight. It's just when I think of the character, I don't like thinking of her naked and crying.

I'd rather think of her. It's not that I think it's realistic, but it is upsetting. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's hard to read because you can see at that point how broken down she is and how like afraid she is not so much for her brother, but of the fact that he's going to keep coming off to carrot. Yeah.

She loves carrot so much. She does. I like Vimes has a good moment of pride when she's fighting Wolfgang. He's doing movies like that's like more book fighting. I taught her that. Good. Good stuff.

I really like his sense of pride in her like as a policeman, but also just as a person that he knows and has worked with. Absolutely. Yes. And although he's like super awkward about it, he's not so awkward. He won't pick her up off the floor and come for her. Yeah.

And she's like naked and crying. Yeah, he's a good buster. I'm not going to go so far as say he's a good boss, but he's a good buster Angra and Sibbles great there. She immediately picks Angra up and kind of takes over in the way that only Sibble can, which is very practical caring. You'd want to be looked after by Sibble if you were crying, wouldn't you?

Because she's not the kind of person who's going to make it worse by being like, oh, head tilt. But yeah, Angra eventually does decide to come back to Angmar pork mostly thanks to your quote. Kara's promise that he will be the one to take her out if she needs to be taken out. We were working up to it with every time she cried, I think because it was just so clear how much she loved Kara and

she wouldn't let him say it, but. No, but she wanted it to be acknowledged and be out there. The moment she kind of seems to just comfortably be very back in her skin the moment they walk back into the watch office. Yes. Because it's her home and it's her home and it's her world much more than we world ever is now and I'm very happy for her. And yeah, that takes us neatly on to Kara's who gets one last

good moment right at the end of the book. Yes. The wolf fight. Oh, yes. And I think that's a really important moment for Angmar as well because it's not just that he would it's that he could when she sees him taking out the lead wolf and basically doing a Gavin he bites the back of the neck and does almost the same

home. And he's learnt so fast from like the one mistake he made throwing a stick for Gavin. Yeah, he knows not to treat them like dogs. He knows how to establish his dominance and he knows how to leave them in a comfortable position where it's wrong meat can still be in charge while Kara's not around. Yeah, his near death experience was like just really jarring

wasn't it? Because he's so invincible in almost all these situations to see him like fall down. I remember like thinking for because the first time I read this was probably I think it was around the time I just read the first game of Thrones book. Ah, yes. And bear in mind I hadn't been the TV series was out by that

point I hadn't been spoiled on the TV series but I knew it was a big name playing this main guy. So like of course he's not going to oh no, no, he's dead. I remember that being such a big shock that I then got into this relation the fictional characters aren't safe and I hadn't read much this world. So I think I genuinely thought carrot was dead for a second until he obviously wasn't.

But yeah, no, it's like to see the two carrot moments in such quick succession. So the thing with the wolves and then the thing with the watch where he goes and does like the alpha wolf thing but to colon. Oh, it's a great moment on your feet. Sergeant to my earth and you I ought to be I'm standing on your bed.

Which is like as unnatural coming out of him as biting a wolf is but he just knows how to deal with people in situations even when as is I think maybe he's finally learning to as Angkor puts it that slide the claw out but it. Yeah, it's good to see that side of care and he sort of goes back to nice carrot where he calmly says you know what was my fault. This is my fault.

I left you in an uncomfortable position and it is kind of his fault. Yeah, it is as I said previously the admin here has been atrocious. I understand it from carrots body view here what he had to do but the fact that we're not more set fail safes put in place is a failing of everybody involved. I think part of the issue was cherry and detritus being gone

as well. And now I want to read a book that's just cherry and detritus left in charge of the watch because like what a little buddy I smell as it come. It would be such a good sitcom. It would be very 90s. We need like the whole like opening montage shot of cherry like doing a thing then looking at camera like oh you.

Oh yeah. Maybe there is like the disapproving wife every now and then when a high jink happens. I'm fucking like lasted applause but nobby walks in the room especially if he's wearing like a woman's outfit. Wolf whistles when he comes in in the bonnet. Oh no all right we need to think about this more on our own time because we've we've we're running late already.

We've still we're still not even through all the characters and not got locations. I left out locations this week I think we've got enough to be getting on with Tantany Tantany Tantany captain Tantany of the bottom watch. Yeah I know where Tantany's name is from. Oh it's the shortened form of the name of Sir Anthony the Abbott and from there you get the phrase Tantany pig which is

the smallest pig of the litter which I imagine is the reference here. Oh that's sweet. Yeah but he's he's he's not happy. He's not happy. Oh he's not. He's been told that things happen in a way that aren't how he saw them and he's kind of thinking he's not having a bar

of it right because that's not how it happens in that war book. Milord Vimes would arrest anyone they said which is he did go and arrest a battlefield. So he did he's got precedent God how much of those paperwork piles do you think were just left over from Jingo. Yeah do you know what Vimes might not be as cross as they think he might.

I think he'll secretly be quite pleased. Yeah obviously if he'd come back to no watchman he'd have been very angry quite like very impu but coming back to no paperwork because like he'd been composting it I think he'd be a. I think he's all right about it. Especially if someone else was sorting out the new wage shitty or whatever.

But Tantany's insistence like him and Vimes arguing over who's going to have a go at arresting Wolfgang. Which sort of ends with you know tell you what after he's killed me you can have a go. Yeah and it's like he's kind of finally well he's really chastised because you know Vimes is starting to respect him and say oh you know you let them do what with my wife. Oh yeah.

Yes and then that's obviously brought Tantany enough shame to go and do something incredibly stupid. And to try and try and take twice after he gets the shit kicked out of him by Wolfgang when he tries to arrest Seraphine he then wants to go and arrest Wolfgang which fair play to him. Yeah. Yep.

Thank goodness for Igor's. It's like learning how to Vimes without all of the context of everything Vimes has been through. It's like he's trying to skip to the last level but he hasn't got enough XP to get the good weapons. Oh my God. Yeah it's like when you wonder into the wrong bit of fall out and get smacked by a death claw you're like oh no other

direction fine I'll come back later. Wolfgang is a death claw. Yeah yeah I'll take that. Cool. Okay we've established that. Gaspode. Gaspode described by Vimes as the canine equivalent of Nobby which I'd not thought of before but absolutely yes but I'll

gaspode when he finds Gavin's body and he's very upset and he says you know if you're a human they put you in a big boat on the tide and set fire to it shouldn't be just you and me down here. I'm sure Kara will tell him that you got a good burial and yeah. I love his ending though he's standing on the prowl going. Yeah he has his nice little standing on the boat. I'm a little boat dog.

You would make a very good little boat dog actually. It's one of my favorite things about if you go like on holiday somewhere where there's canals I love going for a walk along canals and there's always people come past on their boats and there's a dog on the boat and they wave and you wave back and the dog wags its tail. It's the best thing. Charming.

And yeah Colin I just wanted to bring up because it's not charming. Colin is not charming we already talked about him getting kind of shouted back into himself. Which we found the cheat codes for Colin I guess but you've really got to be able to do that tone of voice. But the moment where he's on his own. And the watch house is slowly. Cooling down.

Yeah. Oh the chairs creaking. Yeah. His hand went down to the desk and came back automatically while he looked straight ahead. There was the crunch of a sugar lump being eaten. And that switch into passive voice for that last sentence best who done it revelation in all of literature.

I'm saying it now. I'm planting my flag. Yeah. Fuck you Poirot. But the way it goes into passive to kind of indicate that he's not really aware he's doing it. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Smart. That's such a clever little little writing. Probably just quite a good writer really isn't he? Yeah. Which we picked a good one for this yeah. Yeah. And then Nobby I just love for his panicked explanation of trying to explain how the strike happened.

We see Fred kind of and then he got sort of and then next thing you know he was setting footer and then we and then he wouldn't come out and then we and then he nailed up the door and Mrs. Fred came and shouted at him through the letterbox. I'm actually going to run off and got other jobs and now there's just me and Dorfel and Reggie and Washburn and we come here to turn and turn about and we shove feed through

the letterbox to our room and and that's it really. Satisfactory. Yeah. I liked his moment with that narrow. We're better now. It's like I gather you have withdrawn your labor in your case. I'm sure this presented a good deal of difficulty.

I love that veterinary scene because it's very much that he's clearly this isn't veterinary being threatening. This is veterinary actually really quite happy with what's happening right now amused and just sort of looking forward to seeing it all play out. It's nice to because you because veterinary is very controlled. I think secretly is enjoying the possible little bit of

chaos that's going to come up. Yeah. Whereas knowing in his heart of hearts that because everybody's shit scared of vimes that's not going to go too far. Yeah. Like he says to drum not like crimes down. Everyone is fully aware that finds all go spare. Yeah.

I love the phrase go spare as well because I only see it in the Discworld book specifically referring to vimes. Yes. It's in yeah. A feat of clay when nobby is being offered like the kingship and he's like but vimes all go spare. I thought that would be nudging nobby if sometime chose this moment to be seen once again.

Mr. Vimes is going to go spare. He's going to go mental. You can just see the glaze coming over his eyes. Can't you as that comes back? No. Okay. Right. Get on with it.

And then lastly just hi to young Igor. We haven't really talked about the Eagles much in this book obviously RIP Embassy Igor. Yeah. Although he'll be back. It sounds like in the form of some time what go the round comes around but young Igor's they got a big javelin nose is a rabbit covered in ears and a pocket full of dreams.

The rabbit covered in ears thing that was like a science a science thing. But there was science. Yeah. Some scientists did a science. There was a mouse with an ear on its back. It wasn't an ear though like it wasn't like transplanted. They made like a biodegradable scaffolding and like grew the

ear on it. Oh right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Cause that was quite a long time ago wasn't it. Oh no they like made the scaffolding and grew the ear and then grafted it onto the mouse.

But it wasn't like taken from a person and put on a mouse is the point. Oh good. Yeah. And I don't think the mouse could hear through the human ear on his back. Oh good. I don't think it was wired up to the relevant canals.

His little noses on legs. It makes me very happy. Me too. Also was referred to as bioartificing which made me laugh twice earlier when you were talking about how much you hate the phrase biohacking. He's a bioartificer. Artificer.

Artificer. I enjoy it in the context of Discworld and a young ego inventing new ego related technologies. I don't enjoy it in the real world when it's used in diet articles like biohack your metabolism to lose 10 pounds fast. Yeah. I can lose 10 pounds fast by not closing my wallet properly

and I don't have to fuck about with nonsense like biohacking. Sorry. Ah two things. It means two things. It means two things. That was a peon or a play on word listener. I feel like we should probably take a little break. Little bits we liked.

What little bits do we like? Oh, I don't know wolves. I do like wolves. Wolves are actually I really wolves are one of my absolute favorite animals but they've been totally ruined by like bros. I thought you were going to say by fleeces with wolves on because disagree.

I kind of like those. I like them. I don't like a lot of people who wear them. Yeah. You are obviously an exception. It's really funny though. I didn't wear them. Well, no, but if you did wear one I would support you in

that choice is they have a wolf enclosure, one of our closer zoos and I went to the zoo with my sister and her little boy and totally forgot that she is terrified of wolves and can't walk through that bit. How did she develop that phobia? They watched Peter and the wolf at like nursery and it was a creepy animation of it. Like she can't hear them the music the Peter and the

wolf music, which I never remember of them without like getting really freaked out. I totally forgot she's terrified of wolves and we got to the wolf enclosure and I went running in to see the wolves and she was just stood outside like bear in mind this is the sister who less than five minutes before was when I went into the tiger bit and was like, oh my God, it's eating a massive chunk of bloody meat right

now came running in to see of course then that the little boy had a bit of an upset when he realized he wasn't allowed to go and cuddle the puppies. I'd be upset here. Yeah, no, I'm quite upset that I can't go and cuddle wolves. Yeah, there is a thing somewhere where there's like a it is a wild wolf population, but there's a cabin you can stay in and the wolves are friendly enough that you

can actually go and sit out and be around the wolves and they'll come up to you and you can pet them. Sandy Toxvig did it on like a travel show and there's a really lovely video of her getting to like cuddle a wolf. But in real life listeners, you shouldn't do that. Sandy Toxvig does live in a fantasy realm. Yeah, Sandy Toxvig not entirely.

She is some form of Faye, I think. Yeah. Anyway, did you find a fun wolf fact? Because I know you've got to look them up. Yeah, so Homo Hominai Lupus, which is the wolf's lots motto maybe our family motto. Yes, sorry, Homo Hominai Lupus, a man is wolf to other men or man is wolf to man.

The idea of it is it's like references situations where people have been predatory kind of, you know, that kind of thing. But the variation of the proverb appeared in the play a scenario by Plautus, which I think you it's one of those is one of those Roman. Yeah, Roman. Yeah, yeah.

But anyway, it's a lupus S. Homo Hominai non Homo. Com galisit non novit, which has been translated as man is no man, but a wolf to a stranger, which I think makes more sense. Yeah, as a counterpoint, Seneca the younger, right? Homo sacra res Hominai, which has been translated as man an object of reverence in the eyes of man.

Basically, it descends into philosophical bickering as we do quite enjoy, but I have times much more. So fair enough with your wolf back. Dire wolves. So dire wolves were a real thing about they were like around the times of the megafauna about 13,000 years ago. Obviously extinct now and their thought of as like an ancestor to the gray wolf, probably around the same size,

but massive bone crushing jaws like focused on things like horses and mastodons. Like you wouldn't fuck with them. So it's always been assumed that they were basically big will big gray wolves. Yeah. And that's where the gray wolf comes from. But in early 2021, scientists revealed surprising results

after sequencing DNA from dire wolf sub fossils. Apparently, they're actually only very distant cousins to gray wolves and it's a it's more like convergent evolution rather than close relation. And sorry, I'm reading this straight from our school, but a dire wolf DNA indicates a highly divergent lineage that split from living canids 5.7 million years ago with no evidence of interbreeding with any living canid species.

So yeah, divergent evolution. Cool. I like that. I like that. That's good. And then if you want more wolf facts listeners, John, it's going to do a rabbit hole on wolves on our Patreon at some point.

We'll use them soon. Probably early next month. Yes. Werewolves in pop culture. Look forward to that. So the marquee of Fantaea. Mm hmm. Have I written down the wrong fucking page?

No, I haven't. Sorry. My page numbers are all over the place because I kept putting threes where there should be fours. This is a footnote. So it's this idea of the the marquee of Fantaea rules of fighting the carrot attempts later on the book. The marquee of Fantaea got into many fights and as you most

of them as a result of being known as the marquee of Fantaea wrote a set of rules what he termed the noble art of fisticuffs, which was mostly a list of places people weren't allowed to hit him. And many people were impressed later stood with the noble chest out thrust and fist balled in a spirit of manly aggression against people who hadn't read the marquee of marquee's book but did know how to knock people senseless

with a chair hence the last words of people being stuffed the bloody marquee of Fantaea. So I'd heard the phrase Queensbury rules largely as a kind of comedy thing like I think like Blackadder that sort of thing people square up Queensbury rules Queensbury rules. So they were actually a code of rules for boxing from the 19th century. I guess when boxing matches were like a much bigger form of

obviously they're still a big form of entertainment but they were like bare knuckle boxing matches outside of pubs that sort of thing. There were quite a few different rule sets and the Marques of Queen Marques of Queensbury rules are the ones that are still most relevant to the current rules of conduct in modern boxing. Nothing about the belt. Yes, that sort of thing.

If you I've linked to a little article about them that gives you the full list, but I laughed more than I should have done at rule two no wrestling or hugging allowed. And I'm fully aware that in this case hugging means like grabbing or something. I like the idea there's a rule against the boxers being to affectionate and giving each other a little cuddle. So do I will it get better if you pick it?

I feel like at this point we should say solidarity with people striking. We are very pro strike action pro industrial action when negotiations fail. Yes. But yes, some of the picket signs chosen by the watch we had colon out from reg nice and simple, but does sound a bit like surgery.

Dauphel was holding a large closely worded text detailing their grievances in full with reference to watch procedures and citing a number of philosophical texts, which well done Dauphel. He really does understand the power of words even if they're not really legible on a sign. Well, you don't want to skimp, do you? When you'd be after he's very exact with all of us.

He's very precise and Constable visit, which says what profit if what profit it it a kingdom if the oxen be deflated? Yeah, do you know what I mean? No, but apparently it's been riddles chapter two verse three. Well, probably why I don't know what it means. I mean, obviously like it mean like the oxen being the beast of burden and I feel like I feel like there's been at least 18 schisms in the Omnian church about the deflated oxen.

There's probably a sect of the deflated oxen. Oh, there's definitely a year of the deflated oxen somewhere. Yes, probably. But I just I like moments like that in books where you get like a little character study by giving each of the characters like it's something to hold up that to demonstrate who they are. Yeah, for sure.

Going like this. Except not headcanon because practice is allowed to write his own cannon. That's his right is also will allow it. And then why are we all of mine together? Why did I do this? I don't know. They are very close together actually.

That wasn't just me taking them on the end front. The three sisters. And here is where we have the Chekhov chunk. Chekhov chunk, nice. So there's kind of three Chekhov plays being rushed to Chekhov plays being referenced here. There's a they're looking at a cherry orchard. So Chekhov did have a play called the cherry orchard.

In fact, I believe that was 1903. That was his last published play. Yeah. There's kind of a theme to Chekhov's work that it's all very on we it's all very wistful. It's all very dissatisfaction with life and it is and nothing really gets better by the end of the book. Yeah.

Which is done here in a fun comedy way. So the the main one being references obviously the play The Three Sisters. Yeah. Published in 1901. It's about three sisters with a very unhappy life and a younger idiot brother who marries a dickhead. And they all dream of they all dream of going back to Moscow

but especially arena the youngest because they were all happier then. The thing is about Chekhov is he saw his works as comedies. Yeah, a lot of the directors didn't and so he got into huge conflicts with people who kept insisted on making the actors play it straight. And he was like, no, it's funny. It's funny because look at how sad he is.

Part of the comedy comes from the fact that these people are so endlessly dissatisfied and that there is nothing that could be done to make these characters happy. I find it funny, although I think Pratchett does the comedy better that maybe just because I'm not Russian enough. Something's always going to be lost in translation. Yeah, I did find some nice quotes though from the three sisters and this is the opening scene which is what's being

parodied with them looking over in this with them looking out over the cherry orchard. An old girl the eldest is saying this morning I woke up and I saw a blaze of color. I saw the spring and gladness bubbled up inside my heart and I desperately wanted to be where I came from in my native land. I feel as if every day in my youth and strength have been

oozing away drop by drop. The only thing that grows and strengthens is one single dream and Irina chimes in to go back to Moscow to sell the house to finish everything here and then to Moscow. So yeah, that one's a bit more depressing. We could there's a roller skating rink. I love the trousers for better than yes. So the gloomy and purposeless trousers of Uncle Vanya.

Sorry, I didn't say that the gloomy and purposeless trousers of Uncle Vanya. Thank you. I'm not going to do the check off quotes in the accent and I'm guessing the gloomy and purposeless is supposed to reference the kind of sad on the way of all the check off plays. The as a practice mentions the trousers or replace to something about the trousers on one of the forums.

Oh, yeah, I lost that it came up and annotated which I did screenshot on the first F say and then finally saved it for the right one, which is just that Uncle Vanya does not include any trousers and it's featured in the play and practice as well. Yes, Vines got them. He's got them. You just cannot let me finish a fucking sentence Joanna.

Jesus. Sorry, I was trying to do it at the same time. I thought it would be funny. I can see you've desperately tried to find it before I could finish. Really? I'm the worst. Okay.

Let's move on. I'll let you say things. Okay. Margolotta in her meeting has a kind of inner monologue bit where she's thinking about giving giving up blood in this case, but addiction in general, which is you found that what you really wanted was power and there were much polite ways of getting it.

And then you realize that power was a boreball. And he stuck had power. The true prize was control or veterinary knew that when heavy weights were bounced on the scales, the trick was to know where to place your thumb and all control started with self. And it's very similar to a lot of the conversations you got with recovering alcohol, which is just there. Either this is either this was something I could control or

this was something that allowed me to take my thumb off the scale for a minute or basically just trying to find the initial motivation, which is the symptom versus course thing, I suppose. Yeah. And in Lady Margolotta's case, that cause was wanting to control a huge sprawling country, which is at least I guess she's good at that. I took up watercolor.

I mean, I do feel like Lady Margolotta's got that similarity with veterinary with like benevolent tyrant like I'm okay with the fact that she's taking over a whole country. I'm not sure she's benevolent because I do feel like even handed. Yeah, maybe a bit more. Let's say yeah, not so concerned with individual human life. And yeah, the other little that I liked was just the significance

of the schoon. I just wanted to fill in some of the details. I missed when I was talking about the robbery of the schoon or the robbery deliberation. Let's call it. Let's be on Scotland side for this. Legends say that the stone of schoon, also known as the stone of destiny dramatically, might have been bought by St.

Columba to Scotland from Ireland as a portable altar then turned into a throne, which just show the wonderful malleability, I suppose, of a slab of rock as a continuity piece eventually become the sacred coffee table. Exactly. So in another thousand years, it was then used as coronation chair when Columba crowned. Wow, Scottish people.

You can come right back at me on this one. The King, Ace and Mac Gavron. Maybe it's not spelled that way, but I looked up the proper pronunciation and tried to do that whole thing with, you know, the IPA, the little symbols for pronunciations. Yeah, I've got to learn them properly one day. Anyway, other monarchs including Macbeth and Robert the Bruce also sat on it during their coronations and then it was nicked

in the 13th century. However, there is a belief that the stone under the coronation chair in Westminster is in fact a 13th century substitute for the real stone of destiny. And here we get into a little parallel disc world, perhaps maybe the theory goes that monks are in a substitute at the stone, which is described differently to Alex and some historical accounts, giving a bit of grudge to the theory.

Maybe if you really want to believe it and hit the real one. The tales of where it's been hidden kind of range from the maybe to the definitely not, but that's a nice story. Some say it was taken to the Hebrides where it remains today, which I quite like. This is called the Westminster stone series, the whole wiki page on it, I'll link to. Whichever stone is currently in Westminster won't be there

for long with any luck. The stone of destiny is meant to be moved to Perth in 2022 to sit on public display in the refurbished Perth City Hall. But it will be transported back to Westminster Abbey for future coronations. Yeah, I find it really funny if they take up to Perth and the Queen does like the next week. And they have to bring it straight back for a coronation.

You know that's going to happen, don't you? She's going to hang on for that. And that's all I want to say about this goon of stone. The stone of skin. Yep. All the stone of scorn, the stone of scorn because I've managed not to trip over my words too much and I'm not going to push it.

I'm proud of you. Let's go on to the biggest of them. Yeah, the safer, more, more important things. Well, let's talk about the law versus the law. I think that's how we decided to say it to make it work. Sorry, I got distracted. You highlighted something. Oh, sorry.

Yeah, we're in the same document. I forgot that's like that's the that is the document equivalent and me just tapping my foot like an ADHD weirdo. I'm sorry. No, no, it's fine. It just distracted me for a second. I was like, why the hell have I done? Right.

So the law versus the law or is that how we're going with it? The law or to differentiate it in the title or law. The big kind of dichotomy of this book, like an overarching thing is what's the difference between what's best for more pork and what's morally right and good. And then within that, you have this kind of inner turmoil of vimes of what's right and good policing. Like when is he a policeman, when is he ankle more pork

and when is he motivated by emotion specifically anger? Like he's a very angry person and we get one final repeat of the motif that's been running through the book. This is like more pork cutting the top of his boiled egg. And here in this section, we have this is like more pork trudging through the snow. Yes. And he's become quite cynical and bitter about his

ambassadorial power because yes, he's still referencing he's representing at more pork, but he is still trudging through the snow in his underwear. And he wants a boiled egg and he wants a boiled egg. He deserves a boiled egg. Just deserve a boiled egg or some fried sausages, which I think he gets. That's nice.

So starting from the inside are working away out and by that I mean starting in Vimes' head. A terrible place to start when you start from the very emotion and you see this rage building up and we've seen this before with Vimes when I think one of the biggest moments is back in men at arms when he's holding the gum and he has to talk himself out of using it. But I think it's kind of fade into the background.

It's become a big character beat for him again here where he's, you know, the wolves are attacking him and a deeper voice red and raw said kill them all. Yeah. And there's a moment you highlighted. He's building this rage up against them and is when carrot comes to save him. And wolves, Vimes hesitates when the wolf sounds human and

says please and then of course it jumps and carrot runs it through with a spear. Yeah, carrot striking the blow that Vimes and I think there's a difference carrot is very comfortable in who he is even if we don't know who that is whereas Vimes is constantly kind of at war with himself and doubting himself and that's why he hesitates and carrot can strike that blow that does need to be struck.

It's the same with the God at men at arms, right? Yeah. Carrot made the decision for Vimes, which was to not take the shot in that case, but he takes and he threw away his shot. So I'm right right back at you. I know you enjoyed the Hamilton. All right.

But you keep getting these really good parallels of Vimes getting these full rage filled moments and then almost immediately later someone else almost showing him how to behave like he gets into this full rage over Sibyl where he threatens Tantani and it says in a monotonous threatening as a spear which is a gorgeous simile. Yeah, he really he's he's sprinkled it a lot more of the nice ones than the than the skewering similes in this one

didn't he? Yes, he really does. Oh, it's such a beautiful landscape. I'm gonna have to do some real serious metaphoring. But then like a page later you get Vimes kind of demonstrating what it is to follow orders and not follow orders when he tells Detritus to shoot Tantani and Detritus does the I'm not that stupid you can shove that order up your arse.

Absolutely. That moment actually and the moment where Carrot rescues him are both very very clever diffusions of that tension as well. I think so this build up of anger and like frustration and that and then the moment of liminal. Oh, when he didn't know what to do with the the pleading wolf. Yeah, and then just diffused by someone else coming in and says it's carrot being fucking hero.

It's carrot being capable of being black and white because I'd say that's one of Carrot's bigger actually shown character flaws as opposed to the unknown of what's in his head is that he is very black and white in his thinking and sometimes has to be corrected on it. You know, we saw our anger explaining to him and he only had to be told once, you know, we have a second pronoun here more pork and we're going to use it aren't we?

Yes. The I don't know if it's because it's as funny as I thought it was all because it's the diffusion of tension but that whole bit where Carrot's just turned up made me properly laugh out loud and I was reading in the break room at work. Gavin's people a that's good. That's very good. I'm pleased about that.

Well done Gavin. Now who the hell is Gavin? There's something in Vines hysteria and like I said earlier there's something about the sleep deprived hysteria that makes it really funny. Well done Gavin. It's always like young ones hysteria. It's like Rick Mail.

Yes. Oh no. Sorry, I'll let you get back on the anger track for that. There's just there's a lot of really good moments. There's this moment where anger calls him out for being calm and cool when Carrot's hurt and that's something I think Vines has kind of learned from Carrot is when to deploy the personal isn't the same as important.

Yes. That anger reminds him of, you know, a few pages later. And then later on when Wolfgang re emerges as the line you mentioned when Sybil's expression was the unquestioning assumption he could do something. Yeah. And you know, there's this line about it had been, you know, there was this real world and a real future in front of him.

Suddenly the dark was back spattered with red rage. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's one of my highlights. Yeah. And this idea that he can't give into the beast because Wolfgang's better at it. Yeah. The Oh, sorry.

His a sooner or later his brain would kick in and that would kill him. Yeah. The bit still during the taste this end of hysteria. I've just realized actually kind of parallels the geezers he's next to because I was just about to read the he wrote. There were no words there. It was a sound from before words.

That's a little bit before that. You guys thought more or less stopped when his fingers closed whatever replaced it in the pathways of his brain was gushing up from somewhere else. Thousands of years old. He's just standing on the geezers there. Ah, that's a really metaphorical parallel. I like that.

But where this kind of culminates for a whip for vines and takes us out into the bigger picture is when he takes down Wolfgang and he shows his badge and tells me he's armed and says it twice and tries to arrest him and ask if he's resisting arrest and he has Tanzania as a witness that is doing everything by the book. And then he throws the flare knowing that will kill him. Yeah.

And the line at the end of that is there were lots of things you could say son of a bitch laugh this one off. He might have said fetch but he didn't because you know if he had said any of those things then he'd have known that what he had just done was murder. Yeah. It's not quite the same thing but it gives almost like a subversion of the trope where the hero always has to give

the antagonist a chance. Yeah. Simba asks I've gone straight for the ranking like Simba asking Scar to to just leave to come up and they asked to drop him into the has to drop him into the fire instead because he jumps up tries to kill him. I don't know. I don't remember.

Yeah. But that trope anyway that's in a lot of things especially in kids movies. So the villain has to die but the hero has to try to save him and this is almost like a cursory version of that from vines and it's a he is killing him not murdering him. Yeah. When he's dealing with it afterwards talking to Tantani

it's like now you maybe you could say I could did it wrong or I could have handled it differently and I might say that myself and to him like as an aside not out loud he says in the middle of night he added to himself after I've woken up seeing those mad eyes. He must have a nice collection of mad eyes to go through in his nightmares. That's a I love a line up isn't it?

Let's get Vimes therapy. Crowdfunding for Vimes therapy. Get Vimes on better health. Oh God. What do you think about more pork therapist going to be like they zombie and more for therapy sessions. That's an oppressing headcanon but I'm up for it. Magrits tried it a couple of times.

Nani or doesn't believe in therapy but does believe in telling someone to jolly well cheer up and giving them a drink anyway. But this takes us out into the bigger picture of trying to do things by the book and you know Angus you know vines is kind of being stopped with there isn't the law here. We only stopped doing trial by content because lawyers last year and of course again it's not true if you take

the dwarves into account where the law is so built in it's a religion. Yeah. Yeah. And you know Vimes keeps suddenly recognizing he's got this advantage of technically being on more pork soil which side note for some reason whenever I read that like you're on a different country soil if you're in the embassy.

I know it's not what they do but I imagine that they like dig up the foundations and ship in some soil and kind of spread it out. I like like sailors used to do to board off scurvy. Yeah like when Dracula like needed to bring some country to sleep in. I know that's not how embassies are built but like in my mind.

I think that's how they should be built. Yeah I think that would be a good bit of symbolism and they should have done that. And Vimes has to have this pointed out to him because again he's been stuck in this weird moral quandary of as I said like what's good policing what's morally right and he's moved on. He's progressed a lot from I think you pointed out when

we did guards guards. There was a very sort of problematic moment where carrots basically sent in to beat up a bunch of palace guards and it was very like police brutality. And so I feel like we've learned from it here and we've very much developed as not us personally but like in the books they very much. I hardly ever engage in police brutality anymore.

Only on the weekend was I cut down. It's funny because in my head can and I stole a policeman's badge and then engaging in police brutality against the police. Oh okay yeah I know that's better. I like that. You shouldn't give that up. Kids don't beat up policemen.

If you're in safety don't smoke don't beat up policemen both of them will make you look cool but it's bad for you. Yeah. Sorry. Why can't we finish on time? Vimes when talking to the low king has the conversation about why didn't Albrecht expose you and take the throne because this plot surrounding everything was to put Albrecht

on the throne. But it wasn't Albrecht's plot and this is what the king points out. You're laboring under a misappreciation. You think because he dislikes Ankh-Morpork he's a bad dwarf but he's not. He's honest and honorable and that's something Vimes needed pointed out to him.

That was a gorgeous bit of cross party cooperation as well. I never see that around the world. No. The dwarves showing off as better than humans in this I think. Very much so but Vimes is very trapped in this moment of the big picture versus the little picture and Vimes knew he was a little picture man and he looked for the crimes that was it and he knew the difference between big and little crimes

and he's not sure which one has taken place here. He's sort of frustrated you know Deal get a few days because she's been naughty and he's frustrated that because she thought she was committing a much bigger crime. Yes. And that that won't be the response to it. And I think it's a really powerful in this book to make Vimes have to confront the fact that he is not.

He's always known he's not the most powerful. He's gained power like within Ankh-Morpork as these books have gone on but knowing really that he isn't always right and neither is Ankh-Morpork and that maybe there are times where he has to because the thing of Jingo is that he doesn't keep his head down he goes and arrest the battlefield. Yeah. Whereas here he does kind of have to put his head down and

accept a couple of things. Yes. Because he recognizes he's out of his jurisdiction and it's a really interesting I know we hate saying this but journey. I think we love saying that let's be honest we've come full circle on a journey of thoughts. Fuck. No I hate it again it's fine carry on I ruined it for myself.

And what brings Vimes finally to being comfortable with his place in everything that's happened is the moment of the coronation and it's when the king sits on the scone and he's sort of half expecting it to explode or something but he knows it's not fake but in the roaring air he knew that it was for all who needed to believe and in a belief so strong that truth was not the same as fact you knew that for now and yesterday and tomorrow both the thing and the whole of the

thing which brings us back around to this power of the belief thing and Vimes accepting it. I did it fucking did it said I was going to do it and I did it. Followed very well done. I'm going to ruin it because I believed in you. I'm going to ruin it by tacking one more bit on your fuck. What?

It's just because I this is the first time I've swore this parallel and I love it and it's the moment where the king shakes hands with cherry and with detritus. And Vimes thinking on these handshakes are symbols. You couldn't try for the big stuff but you might have made the world a better place somehow with these moments and when the king shakes to try to his hand and Vimes says

well that one will be heard all around the world even in Lake Moorpork and it's like a political version of the wolves howl. Ooh, the whisper traveling for miles. Yeah. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Ooh. Ooh, will foul but handshake. Yes. Very yes. All right. No, that is good. Okay. I've what I've one part that I want to ask is very this book

which is so they reopened the silver mines. What are your thoughts on that? Because that seems so hostile to me. It's not a like peacemaking move. It said introducing guns into the equation move. It's a it's a mutually assured destruction not a peace disarmament thing. I feel like there has been a consistent power imbalance

where the walls have had a surprising amount of power. And this is an escalation but I feel it's also addressing a power imbalance for everything on the same level. Yes, you have teeth and claws and now we have something to prevent the teeth and claws. So you think they were kind of strong arms in that original diet of bugs to into a poor position. Yeah.

And I feel like what Pratchett is trying to do is acknowledge that that balance is being redressed redressed and the dwarves will not be treated as subhuman compared to the werewolves anymore. Okay. I'm not saying I'm actually pro escalating armaments until we end up with nuclear deterrence. No, B can see why Reese would do that.

I understand this. I'm not saying that Pratchett necessarily agree with that either. But it's an interesting move from the Dwarves perspective being entirely in universe here in our judgments. It's a yeah. In universe I can kind of respect the decision. Okay. I I respect the decision.

I'm not sure it's the right one because I'm not sure I want to antagonize all the vampires in that as well. But to silver antagonize the vampires though. Does it not? No, I think we'll what Silver's just anti-werewolf. Oh, oh, what was it? They banned for the vampires garlic or some shit. Yeah.

It's like this is specifically to to beat down the werewolves then that's an interesting thing. It's been on it, doesn't it? Yeah, I would say morally ambiguous. But very understandable, especially. But we like a gray area. That's what vines is good at. Not so much carrot.

Anyway, I'm sorry. I talked so long that I've sort of overstepped your talking point though. Well, no, it's because I kept joining it. How dare you point of these talking points really. I know sometimes we just get so into our research. It turns into a little mini power points. But I think that worked quite well.

Um, I see a obscure reference. Speniel to bring it back to the. Yes. Light hearted, though, slightly sticky. I'm going to the treacle mines, which we've talked about briefly. I think just a little thing we liked in a previous book and now look, it's a fun idea of eating treacle from a mine in Angkor Pork, whatever.

And that's why we have treacle mine road. Yes. Um, but the the treacle mines of Angkor Pork are long exhausted, but here and in Schmaltzberg, Schmaltzberg, thank you. There's sugarcane that got crushed by the elephant or whatever happened, the allegory, crushed by the allegory. Terrible way to go. Treacle mining on round world is a bit like sending out someone

out for stripey paint. Uh, so kind of as a prank on people's gullibility. So to give listeners of all stripes an idea, the see also list on Wikipedia is cow tipping, drop bear, jackalope, snipe hunt, spaghetti tree, wild haggis. It's along all those lines. You must recognize at least one of those listeners. Um, all real.

Yeah. It's referenced and like a lot of literature and things. It's Alice in Wonderland. There's a treacle well that one of them mentions and Alice is shushed when she doesn't believe it. One of the things mentioned on the wiki page was there was a boarding school that was really meaningful. It's new boys, but they'd have them stand out every year and

wait for the coach that was going to take them to the treacle mine locally. Oh, there's a lot of theories as to like why this came about as a thing. Like could have been a mistake when somebody, someone found like a buried bat of treacle or whatever. I think it's just a mean thing people made up and it's quite funny.

Yeah. But one of the locally ones I quite like was on Dartmoor on the east side of Dartmoor. There are the remains of Mycetius hematite mines. That's like a type of iron oxide that was used in pigment and ink and things, which are known locally as treacle mines because the expanse mineral is quite black and listening which is.

Oh. Yeah. So it's quite fun. There are some treacle mines in England. I wonder how the Yank Moorpork treacle mine got there in the first place was my little bit of speculation because with it, if the elephant crushed the sugarcane in the woods and I almost had to hear it.

Did it? What crushed the Yank Moorpork sugarcane? Maybe it's just a more gradual thing like oil. The idea is that the elephant falling split the continents and things as well. So I think somewhere in the continent shifting maybe that would have. Yeah.

Yeah. Like some geological nonsense or maybe that's where the trunk fell or something. Yeah. Because there is as patrons can see from my lovely map behind me. Yank Moorpork is right on the southern tip, sort of around the bend.

Oh, victory weather. Weather person there for a second. As you can see here, we were expecting falling elephants with a chance of wolves. Don't go outside. Stay indoors. Thank you. I can't remember what it fucking was.

Well, it just became a reality for a bit, isn't it? Actually, yeah, like as soon as the lockdown started rule of three, which that comedy podcast I mentioned immediately did an episode on the remaining door sketch. Yeah. That's how you got me into that comedy podcast. You're like, come on, go listen to this one. Yeah.

Oh, and yeah, power of belief because I did the I did treacle minds in maybe exist because people want them to. I had it I had it written in better and it made more sense that I skipped it. But you know, I tried. Yeah, there exists the way wild haggis, jackalopes and tartan paint exist.

Exactly. Yes. People want to believe in them and so somewhere they exist. Isn't I want to believe a thing from the X files? Yes, I've got it on a poster. Yeah. It's like, I've seen that on a poster in someone I know's house. It was you good.

Okay. I feel like there's definitely not everything we could say about the book, the fifth elephant, but also this is going to be a two hour episode. We will be back. Let me check the calendar. Because all of our timings will have been out of whack. I'm going to say we will be back on the 11th of July.

That sounds right. That's a night that's ages. Oh, no, it's not because this doesn't come out on Monday. Yeah, no, it's right. Yeah. Yeah, we had to move everything back on holiday. It was holding. So we will be back on the 11th of July with part one of our

discussion of the truth. And then we'll have like a reset over August and then from September and then we'll go back to normal again. Yeah. So yeah, we'll be back with the truth on the 11th of July, which is Francine's birthday month. I will be there with the truth, the whole truth and knowing that's quite a lot of stuff other than the truth.

Other than the truth. Yeah. So I expect listeners to be really nice next month and seven friends Francine. Lots of lovely happy birthday messages. Just so I look awkward. Yeah. Yeah, I love it.

I'm going to read them all out to you like on CBBC. Oh my God. I forgot about those. Oh my God. Listener sent me birthday messages for Francine. So I can do that. What's that fucking local Devon program that Jack's always on about with like the silent rabbit that did all of that?

Do you remember? He's always on about that and you said, I'm going to have to ask Jack this will be a follow up listener. Sorry. There's a weird limit. Let's get back to me rabbit Devon birthday rabbit. Yeah. Um, hangs out with the jackalope, the wild haggis and

the tartan paint. Right. Until the 11th of July, dear listeners until in the meantime, you can you can follow us on Instagram at the true shell make you fret on Twitter at make you fret pod on Facebook at the true shell make you fret join our sub credit subreddit community. Fuck I was doing so well r slash t t s m y f you can email

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I should say we mentioned it a bit more than usual during this episode and that's not like a new direction of our marketing. It just came up like don't worry. Yeah. Yeah, we're not going to be obnoxious. Yeah. This podcast will always be free at the point of use free

at the point of use and if you join our castles and snacks here though there is a recipe coming out next week for like mushroom pizza thing noise. Oh, that one you were craving kind of but I'm also going to do the recipe for the brown butter confit garlic with crème fraiche. I tried that. Oh, I didn't have crème fraiche, but I did have the

confit garlic. It was nice. Yeah. So yeah, so look forward to that and until next month, dear listeners. I fucking had the page up and then I put the book down. Wow. What a way to earn that book.

So weird. What do you mean you had the, it's the last page. Yeah, but there's like some adverts and stuff on the back and the book's falling apart. Until next month, dear listeners. Wolves never look back. He whispered. Cool.

Yeah, I'm sorry that took so long. No, it's not really my fault. But no, it was, it was both of our fault sequence. We can both be sorry. Yeah. I think that was good episode even though it's far too long. I think just release a really long one. Yeah, agreed.

We've literally never had a complaint that our episodes have been too long. No. No one has ever mowed and we've put out a couple of long ones. It could just be because we're react so poorly to criticism. Yeah, possibly. Whatever. They're not going to mow and then do it.