The Unmade Podcast - 17: Evil Genius

Episode Date: September 12, 2018

Try Audible by visiting https://www.audible.com/unmade or text UNMADE to 500-500 in the US. Our special guest is Professor Moriarty (yes, that's his real name). Ideas involve notable names, science explanations, friendships, and scientists who 'go to seed'. Audible has Phil Moriarty's new book, When the Uncertainty Principle Goes to 11 Support us on Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/unmadeFM Join the discussion on our subreddit - https://redd.it/9f8w4h USEFUL LINKS Professor Moriarty from the University of Nottingham - https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/physics/people/philip.moriarty Professor Moriarty from Sherlock Holmes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Moriarty Phil Moriarty in Brady's Sixty Symbols videos - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcUY9vudNKBMluNZrpoiFc-5buqD74JNs Pint of Science - https://pintofscience.co.uk Shakespearean fool - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespearean_fool Phil Moriarty's book on Amazon - When the Uncertainty Principle Goes to 11 - https://amzn.to/2x8vBWM

Hi there everyone, I'm here with Tim again. Tim's visiting me in England and it's such an exciting time for me, it's actually making me lose my voice a bit, so I'm sorry about my voice. But today we've come to Nottingham because I had to do some filming with someone who I film on a regular basis, Professor Phil Moriarty. We've just been making a video, but now we're in his office and we thought, well, we're here. We're here with Phil. Why not have a chat? I mean, he's a physicist. He's a clever guy. He's going to have some good ideas. So we thought, why not make an unmade podcast with Phil? Are you up for this, Phil? I am totally up for this, Brady. Thank you. Tim, do you mind? Are you feeling a bit jealous, Tim, or having someone new on the show?

I'm looking forward to it. Having someone else in the midst of our conversation, particularly because they're bringing their own ideas. So I'm intrigued to see some sort of benchmarking, perhaps, for our ideas and see where we stand when a physicist comes to play. Yeah, someone who's supposed to be really clever. Phil also has a book out. We're going to let him plug that towards the end of the show. So hang around for that.

It's going to be really exciting. But before that, Phil, you're going to have to earn your keep. Yes, Brady. Yes. So you want some ideas for podcasts? Well, I thought it's only fair perhaps we start by showing you how the experts do it. So I thought maybe I'll throw an idea out there just so you can see

how it works and then we'll hear from you. And then to get things back on the rails, Tim, again, we'll show you how it's done by an expert with one of his ideas so tim you better start coming up with an idea now and then we'll finish with one of yours as well are you ready i'm ready my idea for a podcast is inspired partly by you phil because i wanted something that i feel like you could you could participate in all right so my idea for a podcast is called yes that's really Name. So every week you have a new guest come on the show who for some reason is often forced to say, yes, that's my name. Yes, I've heard all the jokes

before. And for people who haven't figured it out yet, I'm imagining Phil, you are one of these people. I am indeed. And if you haven't heard of Sherlock Holmes, just stop listening to this now and go and read some Sherlock Holmes. But yes, I'm sure many of you are very familiar with Sherlock Holmes' arch nemesis, Professor Moriarty. So yeah, so I'm a physicist rather than a mathematician. So I don't quite have that similarity. I actually had an Uncle James though. I had an Uncle James Moriarty, sort of as Jim Moriarty in the books.

And I don't quite share his love of the binomial theorem. Other than that, in terms of the binomial theorem other than that in terms of the you know the the evil genius aspect absolutely absolutely so do you get this all the time do you always get professor Moriarty like is this something obviously obviously you're not going to get angry at people about it but are you like good-natured about it or how do you deal with it when people come up and give you the oh professor Moriarty haha I'd like to hope that I'm fairly good natured about it. Yeah, it's fun. It's something I play with. I even start off most of the talks I give the lectures just saying, right, we've got this elephant in the room.

Let's head it off immediately at the pass. And if they're fans of Sherlock Holmes, they know what I'm talking about. So, yeah, it's something to have a lot of fun with. There was quite some time actually with the students. I would say there was a good period of 10 years where students didn't really pick up on it because Sherlock Holmes wasn't on television, wasn't in the movies, et cetera. And then the TV series kicked off, the movies came,

and then suddenly, yeah, it was picked up quite a lot. I think it's already obvious that this is going to be a good podcast idea because you can bring the person on, like Phil would come on the show, you have a joke, funny stories. Have you ever watched Sherlock Holmes? Have you ever read Sherlock Holmes?

You ask them all these questions that deal with that issue for maybe like the first 10, 15 minutes. But then it becomes a bit of a desert island disc situation. Tell me more about your life. Tell me. Do you know any other people? I do. And in fact, in Nottingham alone, Brady, we could probably do it just in Nottingham alone because there's a Dr. Watson and there's a Professor Snape here. So there you go. There's your first podcast sorted out.

I have taken a picture of Professor Snape's door several times when I've walked past. Tim, what are you thinking? Do you know anyone who could come on the show? No, no, I don't. Are there any famous Tim Hines out there? I don't know. Well, there was a time when I was working. This is more of a coincidence. It's not quite the same. My name is Tim Hine, and I was working at a college called Tabor College, and I Googled that one time and found an entirely different Tim Hine

on the other side of the world working at an entirely different Tabor College, which is not quite the same thing because no one's heard of either of those Tim Hines or Tabor Colleges. But it's a coincidence. But, no, I mean, it's an obscure name, Hine. I generally get, I mean, everyone gets some sort of clarification comment with their name often. You know, if it's, they'll say, oh, is that German? And so I get a lot of, oh, is that German?

I say, no, it's Dutch. They go, oh, interesting. And if they are from either, you know,and or germany they'll say how do you spell that and so you know that's the little conversation that happens every now and then but um brady do you do you get comments about your name brady is a rarer name than tim or phil i don't really get anything with brady other than brady bunch when like a new brady bunch film comes out or stuff like that so i mean i went to school with a michael jackson and i'm imagining that is still like that follows him around everywhere he goes but it's not just my podcast idea is not just for people with

famous names it could also be people with just names that cause like it could be like a rude word or like a word that's become zeitgeisty for some reason like a name that's been co-opted like imagine some people have like a name that they've been fine with all their life and then something like really notorious happens like some criminal or something happens to someone with that name and then for the rest of their life they're like yes that's my first name and or you know i i was born before that person so like my name wasn't stolen from that so when i was a kid you know heinz baked beans you know and but often i've i've sort of judoed that and I use it to my advantage

because when you're explaining your name in some situation where it has to be written down by some person filling out a form, I'll say it's Heinz food without the Z. And that just seems, oh, right, okay. And then they sort of smile and move on their way. They know how to spell Heinz, but they struggle with Hein. But a lot of this, Brady, is a lot of people have to clarify the spelling of their name or the pronunciation, and they'll get clarifying

comments and so forth. But the number of the idea is more where there's something intriguing or related to it. Why would you have someone on? I don't know. I just think I like the idea of joining people with a common thread of something that's a bit whimsical and amusing. And I think the idea of joining people with a common thread of something that's a bit whimsical and amusing. And I think, like, the idea of having a name that is funny and amuses people is amusing to everyone except probably the person with the name. Phil, if you could, like, somehow change something, like, do you think it's a blessing or a curse having the same name as this, like, you know, this famous villain? I'm very happy with it. It's a way of breaking the ice.

I'm very, very happy with it. Yeah, I wouldn't change it. There there's many many things i'd change about myself before my name so yeah i always didn't like my name when i was growing up brady partly because partly because i just because it was unusual and no one likes being unusual when they're young and also partly because of the brady bunch so i felt and i didn't like the brady bunch as a show and i thought i was somehow going to be linked with it for life. So I always said when I was old enough, like when I turned 18, I was going to change my name to Jason because I thought that was a really cool name. And then I turned 18.

And by then I was, I don't know, I was Brady then. I was me. So my daughter's name is Saoirse. So Saoirse is the Irish for freedom. We really, my wife and I really really like that name and um having said that it's not a very common name in UK it's not particularly common in Ireland and um my daughter was telling me that when she goes into you know Starbucks or whatever and she wants to get a coffee they always ask the name and she says Saoirse and they go sorry what was that she's Saoirse seesaw no Saoirse Saoirse no Saoirse how and they go, sorry, what was that? Saoirse. Seesaw? No. Saoirse.

Chauchet? No. Saoirse. How do you spell it? H-O-L-L-Y. Okay. Just because it's rather difficult to pronounce and spell. She'll be glad.

She'll be glad one day. I'm glad I have an unusual name now. Why? Why do you like it? It feels mature and distinctive to have a name that's only yours in a way. Is that what it is? Yeah. I don't imagine I would like going, you can tell me what this is like. You can probably both tell me what it's like.

I don't like the idea of going into a room and there are like, I imagine there have been times when you've gone into a room and there are like three other Tims and, you know, or you've been in a workplace where you're sitting next to another one. We've had four Phils in the group, in the research group at the same time. That's confusing. Yeah, and it's not even the confusion that doesn't appeal to me. It's just the, I don't know, I like being different. I like being, you know, I like being distinctive.

I don't like standing out, which is probably why I didn't like it at one point. And I still don't like standing out out but I also don't like being just another one and I'm not saying that everyone called Tim or Phil is just another one but it's you know you know what I mean it is funny when you meet someone else with your name particularly when you're younger but even now a little bit because Tim Timothy is not quite as common as a I guess John we always think of John John Smith and or as a very common name in in western places but when you do hear it someone in the meeting called Tim you sort of have a slight it's like We always think of John, John Smith, as a very common name in Western places. But when you do hear it, someone in the meeting called Tim,

you sort of have a slight, it's like a little bell goes off. Like there's a little connection. Like, oh, Tim, oh, okay, I'll probably get along with that guy or have something in common with that guy. There's some sort of connection that we have automatically. Like, we're Tims, you know. To be fair, I didn't think of that as like a comradeship. You're making me sad now that there aren't more Brady's in the world. I would love to meet another Brady.

It would be amazing to meet another Brady. If I met someone in a Brady, I'd get their photo, I'd send it to you. It would be a moment of great excitement. Great Brady-ness. I have met one or two now. I didn't meet my first other Brady until I was in my 20s at like a party or something. But just about six months ago, I met another Brady at a party and someone said, I said, can I use that charger?

The phone charger in the wall was in Berkeley. And someone said, oh, you'll have to ask Brady. That's Brady's charger. And I was like, oh, there's a Brady here. And I was so excited. And I went up to someone saying, can you tell me where Brady is? And they said, yeah, that's her there. And it was a lady.

It was a lady named Brady. And that completely blew my mind. And I was like, I was so excited. Like I wanted to be her new best friend. I'm called Brady too. And I actually thought we were going to become really close friends. I think she thought I was a bit weird and she kind of gave me a bit of a white bird. Bugged off slowly.

Yeah, yeah. You're going to get inundated probably with people sending you photos of Brady's. Oh, I would love that. If you're called Brady and you're listening, please get in touch. Sometimes I do see Brady's on Twitter, like following me and that, and like, they're special. They're special. And if you're a Tim and you'd like to contact me, just get onto Brady's Twitter line and pass along through those means.

So we're on board with this idea as a podcast? We are. What did I call it again? Yes, that's my real name. Well, today's sponsor is Audible with an unmatched selection of audiobooks and other audio products. Now, I'm a big Audible fan, each month using my credits to put new books on my phone. Audible fan, each month using my credits to put new books on my phone. Great stuff for the gym, running, walking the dogs, all those long cross-country drives. I also like falling asleep to an audiobook sometimes. Now, as an Audible member, you get one free audiobook a month, exclusive sales, and 30% off regularly priced audiobooks. To start a 30-day trial, which will include your first book for free,

go to audible.com slash unmade, or if you're in the US, text the code unmade to 500 500. Now, an audiobook recommendation. Well, later in this show, we're going to be talking to Phil about his book, When the Uncertainty Principle Goes to Eleven, which manages to explain the world of quantum physics with the help of analogies from the world of music, especially heavy metal music. And, well, guess what? It's available as an audiobook. It's not read by Phil himself, but by a fellow Irishman with a slightly posher accent. I can't tell you how much fun it is hearing the dulcet tones of the professional book reader tell me about the finer points of Motley Crue and Whitesnake. And I've also never

heard the word tool pronounced so beautifully. But seriously, Phil's book is great. It's full of fun, hardcore physics, and fandom. I heartily recommend it as your first audiobook when you sign on for Audible's trial. It's audible.com slash unmade. Use that URL so they know you came from here or in the US, text the word unmade to 500 500. Our thanks to Audible for supporting this episode. Phil, it's over to you. This is the time. Step up to the microphone and tell us, what have you got? Thank you, Tim. So, yes, I was asked to do this at very, very short notice.

But one idea that's been sort of mulling over for quite some time, actually, not in the context of a podcast, but just as a general idea, but I think it might work as a podcast, and actually this is from my friend Laurie who suggested this quite some time ago. An English major asks a physicist. So in terms of somebody with absolutely no background in physics, just asking physics questions. So it could be the standard things like, why can you see through glass? Why is the sky blue? All the way up to what is this quantum physics stuff anyway? What

the hell is an electron? All that type of stuff. Let me clarify. Initially, when you started talking, I thought this was like a comedy. In other words, they're asking silly questions and it's going to be a point of humour. Or is it more sort of like a dummy's guide, like asking innocent questions that they're able to explain simply? Don't see why it couldn't be both. Both of those would be really good.

Initially, it was a sort of, yeah, dummies guide. But actually, when you look at those dummies guides, sometimes those... There is a dummies guide to quantum physics. You know that? Oh, I imagine so, yeah. Which is, you know, you went to Hilbert space by chapter five. Now, I don't know what sort of dummies we're talking about,

but that's fairly complicated. So, yeah, that type of thing. But also, yeah, unusual, quirky questions. The type of thing, you know, we've done, to a certain extent, with Brady with 60 Symbols, but actually extending that a little bit more and making it, you know, to somebody who has absolutely no background in science, and maybe might not have a huge amount of interest in science at all,

but see something, I don't know, they're cooking something, and their pot behaves strangely or something, or, you know, anything along those lines. Anything quirky every day might be fun. Oh, that's a cool idea. There is a radio show that's been going on for years on a public radio station in Australia, Triple J, called Ask Dr. Carl. And so people call in and ask a scientist all manner of questions. And also they lay out theories as well.

Like they'll say things like, does my beard seems to grow longer if I go to sleep at night by the next morning than if I stay up all night, I don't quite need to shave the next. You know what I mean? And he just sort of, I wish I could remember what he said about that now, but, you know, it's those kinds of things. Is there any scientific basis for this? The T-shirt I'm wearing at the moment is something called Pint of Science.

So it's something that was in Nottingham just a few months ago, but it's right across the world where scientists go into pubs and you talk about your research you talk about various aspects the types of question i get asked there are just compared to you know you go to a technical conference and you go the other side of the world and you're talking about some aspect of your search and you get asked about the minutiae of the research is what's you know know, what voltage did you use or what current did you use or what did you measure here? You go to one of these painter science things and it's like,

why the hell are you doing that? Why should I care? It's that type of thing, that really type of general question. That's great. It's like lay questions and so forth. There could be a strand of this podcast, I'm wondering, where people ask like questions that sort of push the person beyond their knowledge, like the why questions of life. Is that something, you know person beyond their knowledge like the why questions of

life is that something you know what i mean like the metaphysical questions yeah absolutely that would be good to do but i think the problem is sometimes you know for example i will get asked questions deep questions about string theory or deep questions about particle physics because there seems to be this like monolith that that's the physicist and the physicist knows everything about physics but in fact there are massive areas of physics that i'm as much i would say a novice in many ways as people who don't have a background in physics you know i'm not a part of i know a little bit about particle physics i know a little bit about astronomy a little bit about cosmology but i'm certainly not

an expert in those areas so i think putting it that could be nerve-wracking in some ways but could be quite fun. There's a name for this kind of person. I'm trying to think, is it like the court, not quite the court jester, but isn't there a sort of a role in the court of the fool? That's what I'm thinking of. You know, the fool who says, but why? The person who points out that the emperor has no clothes or at least asks the question, why are we going to war with them?

They have five times as many soldiers as we have. And you know what I mean? Asks the naive question that offers brilliance or logic to the room. That's wonderful if your premise is an English major asks. You've got an idea from Shakespeare there that you're pulling in. I've based a whole career on that, by the way. Phil, do you see this podcast podcast if it was being made as being best if it was the same english major every episode the same physicist every episode changing both every episode

changing only one of them every episode yeah that's what an interesting question i think there's something to be said for having the same cast of characters there could be a small number i guess of physicists and a small number of english majors but actually maybe even the same cast of characters. There could be a small number, I guess, of physicists and a small number of English majors. But actually, maybe even the same two people week in, week out, you grow sort of a connection with them. It might be interesting. Then you could ask for, you know, listeners to submit questions. That might be the best way to do it.

There is a sense by which they'll learn as well. Like you say, your base of career on this, Brady, but you come with a, you know, like a passion for the areas as well. And you have, over time come with a you know like a passion for the areas as well and you have over time developed you know an incredible knowledge about it that's me that's it's um developed whereas someone like myself like just today phil we've walked into your office and i've looked at the blackboard that's here and there's all manner of notes and bits and pieces which quite obviously are related to physics and i've gone, hmm, that one looks familiar from Good Will Hunting. But there is a show in that.

It's me saying, what's that? Tell me about that. And it turns out it was an entirely, or Brady actually clarified, which proves my previous point, clarified actually that's an entirely different configuration or mathematical or physical equation than the one in Good Will Hunting. What's on your board today? Phil, do you think maybe this idea, not to take the idea too seriously, because I know you're just coming up with an idea for fun, but do you think this might play into something which I'm seeing more and more of?

And maybe I'm just getting fatigued by it, or maybe I don't know if I like it or not. And that is the whole dumbing down of science. And everything every scientist does has to be put into a, can explain this to dummies can we explain this to an english major like make it make it simple like there are physicists basing whole careers on this really complicated research and it's now it's almost like this thing isn't valid if it can't be explained to a dummy right so let's let's let's dissect and tease that out first of all let's not let's not conflate dummy and english major i think fair enough physicists can get english major i did i did but physicists can get very snotty about that it's interesting there seems to be this

perception in physics that well i can do triple integrals until the cows come home and i can do this incredibly complicated maths therefore i must be much brighter than everyone else you turn to that person and say well okay write me 500 words that are reasonably engaging when I can do this incredibly complicated maths, therefore I must be much brighter than everyone else. You turn to that person and say, well, okay, write me 500 words that are reasonably engaging. And they fail very badly. So it's about different aptitudes. So it's about, it's not so much the dummy aspect,

it's somebody coming from a different perspective. That's what I'm trying to get at, that has no science. A bright, intelligent person, as a lot of English graduates are, asking you questions from a completely different perspective. You do something similar, Brady, when we do 60 Symbols, but you have got a passion for science. You've got a real interest in science. I'm interested in sort of going to somebody who might be vaguely interested in science, but have these burning questions and they've thought about them sometime, but haven't had the opportunity really to discuss them at length. We've made a lot of videos together and you've started, I guess, becoming more familiar with

communicating science through video, which gives you the luxury of being able to use imagery. How much harder, easier or different do you think it would be having to get in front of a microphone with no body language, no diagrams, no equations, no graphs, nothing people can look at? They're walking the dog, they're driving their car. Do you think you could do a good job explaining physics in that medium? What a brilliant question, Brady. God, this is why I like working with you. You know how much I swing my arms around and how much I die for a pen

and you stopped me using equations a long time ago, quite rightly, I think. That's a difficult challenge, but isn't that a wonderful challenge? I chance but isn't that a wonderful challenge i'd love to attempt that yeah i'd love to attempt that but it's the problem is for me and roger bowley somebody used to contribute to 60 symbols a lot was a professor here he came to see the first maybe the first one or certainly the first couple of my undergraduate lectures to do peer review and he he said to me, the real issue here is you speak at the speed of thought. And that's what I do. The words come tumbling out and then I think about what I'm saying about five minutes later. I'd have to really, really change.

It's why I much prefer to write than speak. Because with writing, I can edit and go back and read and edit and read and edit. I'd have to really slow down and think about how I speak. But yeah, it's an interesting challenge. I think this is a pretty good idea. And I wonder actually if it could work as a dialogue, not necessarily asking questions back the other way, which would be another idea as well,

as to why is this poem a wonderful poem? It's, you know, all those sorts of deconstructive and lenses and interpretation that can go on. Precisely. All those sorts of deconstructive lenses and interpretation that can go on. But also there is an affect in science and physics as well, isn't there? You talk about a beautiful solution or an elegant solution, and you talk about particles and their images and their diagrams, and they could be works of art.

You know what I mean? Absolutely. There's an aesthetic to it. There's an aesthetic. That's exactly right. And there's an image that Brady knows knows very well i think we've probably featured and i don't know how many 60 symbols videos five or six which is what's called the quantum corral which is a ring of iron atoms and you can see within that ring of iron atoms that are formed

on a surface you can see the electron waves and i think many physicists myself certainly include have a real visceral reaction to that it's like wow, wow. It's just, you know, as a piece of art by itself, it's just incredible. Guys, I've just had a brilliant idea for a podcast. No offense, Phil. You inspired this. Imagine this as a podcast, right? A physicist explains their work to an English major. That sounds like my idea.

That is your idea. That is your idea. And then that English major is taken into another room with someone else to explain the physicist's work. And then that person has to go into another room to explain. And you do it like 10 times. And then you look at the end. And then play the podcast back to back.

Or just play the first one and the last one. And then the final episode is like the 10th person in the queue coming back and sitting with the original physicist and explaining their work back to them and see how much it's changed over the course of the 10 explanations. Perfect. Right, we're doing that. Okay, can we do that? Also, not only could this be like wildly entertaining, this would be really like educational, informative about how… Ideas are transmitted.

Yeah. And like how science is communicated and the problems with science communication clearly the scientist didn't explain this point well enough and you saw how it got misinterpreted that would feed back really well to the physicists because they could think oh okay so i thought i'd explain that well but as i've watched it get twisted and mangled down the path and it could like say i have to explain this in a new way i'm really excited to see this i'll see this yeah yeah all right so we do it so your idea isn't that they

bring their own angle to it it's not like they hear the idea from the physicist and then they say let me bring my humanity's lens to that and talk about what's there they've got to try and remember what they've heard and transmitted as accurately as they can. No, I think to a degree they are allowed to put it in their own words because that's what happens in society, isn't it? I watched a science documentary last night. Let me summarize it to you how I understood it. And maybe I'll weave in a few of my own analogies because that's what people do in life. They try to simplify it for their friends.

And as you communicate something, you're always changing and adapting it. You think you're improving it or simplifying it. Maybe you are. Maybe you're not. Maybe you're losing meaning. Maybe you're corrupting it completely. I don't know. Sometimes it might get to the other end

and be fed back to the physicist and the physicist will go, that's brilliant. That's even better than how I explained it. That could happen. Maybe it will get polished and evolve as it goes down the chain or maybe it will go completely off the rails and get ruined i'd love to see what would happen yeah it could do either perfect perfect yeah yeah definitely sorry phil i

just i just completely no you took the seed of an idea and you run with it good job i once heard a child just on this i once heard a child describing this game as being Chinese Whiskers, which I thought was perfect because they'd actually not heard the name of the game accurately enough. Even saying, let's play Chinese Whiskers. They'd been playing Chinese Whiskers. Phil, I would say of all the disagreements and arguments we have of a friendly nature when we're filming together, I reckon 60 to 70% of them must be us arguing about what analogies are valid and work and what ones you're completely unwilling to accept. Absolutely. Yeah. And we've just had an example of that earlier today.

Yeah. No, that was me having a go at your analogy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting what I'll forgive and what I won't forgive. The one I really remember is entropy in messy rooms. Like we talked about that so much, the whole touching atoms thing.

What I actually have all the 60 symbols videos. That's probably, that's certainly one of my favorites in that it shows science as it should be. Where me and you were discussing things and we're bouncing ideas of each other. You won't accept, you know, what I'm saying. You're wrong, of course, but that's okay. But what I really like is we bounce that back and forth, and the viewers of that really picked up on it. Nice one.

I'm enjoying that. Good start. Good debut, Phil. Thank you, Brady. You did well. Tim, are you ready? Are you ready, Tim? I'm ready, yeah.

That's strong stuff. Yes, alarmingly strong idea there. But anyway, look, it actually has a similar theme in a sense of moving from one person's interpretation to another person's interpretation. My idea is called friend of a friend, and it's built on the idea of taking, you know, the situation where you've got a friend and it's built on the idea of taking you know the situation where you've got a friend and then you're going to introduce them to another friend and both of them know you really

well but you're the the cog in the relationship if you like and so you've got to introduce them and but there's a subtle there's a few little ritual events that happen in this little scenario one is beforehand you'll be describing the other person. So, you know, today we're going to meet Phil. And, you know, Phil, you know, loves heavy metal music and he's a physicist and, you know, there's that sort of pre-conversation that goes on. Sometimes it happens more spontaneously where you're with them,

but you bump into them. Oh, look, and here's... And that's traditionally when you forget your best friend's name in front of them. You know, and then, but you've got to kind of give them a little biographical summary. Like you've got to sum up this entire person in a little bit of how you know them. So the podcast idea explores this through showing it. I have on a friend and then perhaps you've got to introduce that friend to another friend

and you've got to describe them and people can do that and and there's some level of conversation that goes on about accuracy and the way they're portrayed and it's like really you see me like that do you or something like that so there's an idea in there and maybe you want to refine it or find the physics within my idea phil and correct it and then and then you can explain it to brady who'll write a poem and take it to the person next door and on we'll go the thing you left out that was before you introduce your two friends there's normally like warnings as well don't mention this and like whatever you do like you have to also warn them people of like all the different landmines you can step on like you can bring

up anything but whatever you do don't mention this because it's a really sore point i do like this idea from tim and it's kind of what we've been living out today isn't it because i've known tim most of my life and i've been working with phil for 10 years and bringing the two people together like and seeing what happens i think that could be quite interesting as a podcast format to like take i don't know who your host would be would your host be this same would it be a different trifecta each time or would there be like a common link each time i don't know i don't know exactly the nuts and bolts of how i would make a podcast like this work but i love the idea of of bringing two people together and having this like common

like fulcrum in the middle you could almost do a big brother type reality room thing where you go and talk about the person offline and then you present that when the person isn't in the room with you and then you you have the reaction because you were talking about these are the things you don't say well what if you did say those things that's very nasty oh there's an executive producer in you somewhere for a television program there's a little bit there's also the the when the one of the friends like takes the initiative to do a bit of their own background research like like today when we met and we've not met before and and and you said oh you know i had a look on on twitter and you know what i mean like

quickly to see you and so there's a sense of how much can i glean from this person from the outside and yeah there's that sort of that's you know when the person's really preparing when they're doing the background research or finding out what they can. Phil, I'm curious, someone like you who moves in physics circles, but I know you're also really into like, you know, heavy metal and that sort of stuff. Do you have like wildly different peer groups? And when those peer groups mesh, is that like a really happy time for you or a nervous time for you or do they never come together?

Actually, no. The number of metal fans in the physics community is quite high. There's a Venn diagram of physicists and heavy metal fans. There's quite a large amount of overlap. So actually those two worlds come together. In fact, when I go to gigs, it's actually a lot of the time with my friend James Theobald who did his PhD here and is actually a physics teacher now

it's interesting there's even out there in terms of musicians there's a guy I know quite well a guy called Dave Fowler who's in the Australian Pink Floyd and he's got a he's worked with Sean Riley and Computerphile a number of times and so he's got a lot of interest in the more scientific side of things. I think there's a lot of links between musicians and scientists. So for me, it's not like there are very distinct friendship groups. They all sort of blur into one. Sorry for anybody who knows me and is friendly with me. You're not just one big homogeneous mass.

That is a funny thing about different worlds that we have and whether our worlds meet meet even our home world and our work world but then different friendships and how they go and the world you meet through your partner as well because they have all their friends and and their different worlds and you've got to bring them together and and you've got to kind of um curate dinner parties out of you know a concoction of people and pull them together and trying to seat people in a different place and i guess all that happens at the wedding. Where do we put this person with that person?

They'll get along. No, they won't get along. That's like a big boot camp in how our friends and their worlds are all going to match with your family and friends. I guess my instinctive reaction to this idea when Tim first had it was, oh, this is really interesting. And using us as an example, because we're the three people in the room, and I know Phil really well, and I know Tim tim well and you two didn't know each other until before so my instinct about thinking what would be interesting about this podcast was oh it would

be so interesting for me to see how tim gets along with phil and what they think of each other and how they're different because i'm friends with them both but they're from different backgrounds but actually perhaps the more interesting thing about this podcast, if it was put into practice, would be how do the two friends perceive the person in the middle? Absolutely. Like it would be, Tim would be, oh, I see Brady purely as like a funny person who I have a laugh with and he's just a real, you know, figure of fun. And Phil might be, oh, I've always thought Brady was really serious

and really intellectual and I've never really thought of him as a joker before. Right, Brady, can you leave the room then for a few minutes? So maybe that is what the podcast is. You choose your character, like a famous person, like a rock star, or just an interesting person from the community, and then you pick two of their friends who are very close but have never met each other and bring them into the room

and just see what unfolds with that dynamic of those three people. Because when you suggested that podcast, the first thing I thought was, I love the idea, but how are you choosing the people and what's the format for the show? What's the criteria? Maybe that's it. It's like today's guest is the Nobel Prize winning chemist,

Bill Smith, who is very prestigious and very interesting. And today we've got his childhood friend Sandy who they used to play in the sand pit together and spend Christmas together every year and his colleague and co-Nobel Prize winner John Jones and once those three people are together as they reminisce you get

a different perspective on your guest who is in fact the focus of your show Yeah I think that works but I would have the person after they're introduced introduce their friends so you could start that way you'd say okay oh well one friend here is ben and well i've known tell us how you know well ben i've and i think that's a really interesting moment right there you know ben is my i've and it's it's interesting for ben to hear how he's summarized you know and, and then it goes, and, you know, here's John as well.

And John, yeah, well, John, John is John. You know, you always have that moment where you realise you've got nothing to say about this person at all. They don't amount to anything except, good old John. Well, John's great. You know, and then you try and think of some facts. And John has a dog, you know. But then I think you can move into, I think, yours is a good idea.

It's a really interesting little three-way conversation. But if I put my executive producer hat back on, more conflict. We need more conflict. If we really want this to be a hit, lots of conflict. Phil, if I was putting you on the show and you were my guest, can you think of two friends who I would be best served to choose? Like, have you got two friends of yours who've never met each other who you think would be, like, good drama to see in the room together

and they would have different perspectives on you? I'm imagining you'd want someone from, like, back in your Ireland days. Yeah, yeah, I can think of people. Do you really want me to name them? Let's not get too personal here. Yeah, who have slightly different perspectives. But I too personal here. I can say, yeah, he would have slightly different perspectives, but I don't know.

I don't know in terms of wearing different faces. I think the main issue I have is I wear my heart and my sleeve a bit too much rather than being, you know, Machiavellian. I'm not smart enough to be Machiavellian like that. So yeah. Actually, I can imagine that being true.

I don't imagine there were two or three different feels. All right. Good idea. Nice idea, Tim. I would listen that being true. I don't imagine there were two or three different feels. All right. Good idea. Nice idea, Tim. I would listen to that one. Phil. Yep. You've got to have another one now.

Oh, I've done it. It's my turn again. That came around quick. Are you sure about that? Yeah, because you have to do two. We're each doing one and you have to do two. Yeah, the other one I have, well, there are a couple I could think of, but the one I really quite like is,

you might have to help me flesh this out a little bit, is when scientists go to seed. So sometimes when physicists and scientists sort of get to their... Starring Phil Moriarty. Oh, that happened a long time ago. When scientists sort of get to their later years, sometimes they start exploring what might be called fringe science. You know, some of them might get into homeopathy or some wacky ideas about climate change, etc. And I think it'd be nice to bring those people in

and sort of interview them and see if you could try and find out where the hell it all went wrong. Just really interested in the idea of somebody who's really prestigious, who's really made a name for themselves, and then have sort of lost a lot of that prestige, perhaps by exploring ideas where it's really, really at the fringe. So this is something you've observed in the film, is it?

It is, yeah. There's a wonderful SMBC Saturday morning breakfast cereal, for those of you who aren't familiar with that, that webcomic, if you're not, make yourselves familiar very quickly. But there's one about when a physicist you know reaches a certain age and they start coming out with very wacky theories so it's a well-observed phenomenon phenomenon it certainly happens quite a bit again i'm loathe to mention names largely because of the label cases um but yeah phil just so i can kind of get a better

understanding of this phenomenon when a scientist goes to seed as we jokingly call it and they start getting getting into some more loopy ideas are those ideas typically within their field of research like could they have won the nobel prize in some niche area and then they start going and going weird in that area or is it normally they suddenly take an interest in something completely outside their domain and that's where they start getting a bit loopy? What they try to tend to do, in some cases at least, is to link it back to their area of research. So let's say they were quantum physicists. What they'll then try and do is start talking about, for example, telekinesis and telepathy in terms of, well, there could be some quantum field that couples everybody together, etc. And then the problem is, the real problem is, is that they've got

some authority from the valid work they did that they bring to this nonsense. And then you find, you know, people who don't know anything about quantum physics will say, well, he's an authority or she's an authority in quantum physics. And they're saying this about telepathy or homeopathy or whatever, well, maybe they could be right. That's where it starts to get a bit dangerous. So actually bringing them in, having a physicist or scientist in their field talk to them about this could be really quite interesting and actually helpful. So your podcast idea is to actually have this person on the show as a guest? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. See, it's all about conflict.

Okay. I don't know about that. Does it ever happen that they start doing their loopy stuff, but they're on the separate parallel track, they're still doing their leading, pioneering, great stuff at the same time? I can think of examples. Yeah, I can certainly. I'm not going to mention names,

but I can certainly think of examples along that line. And then the problem is the loopy stuff really then gets a lot of traction because they can be really good scientists in one sphere and then thinking about things in a rather strange way in others. Yeah, I can certainly, there's two examples. It's okay, Isaac Newton's dead, you can't defame him. Newton's a great example in terms of the alchemy side of things, and he had very wacky ideas.

Phil, I mean, you're still a young man with a lot of great science ahead of you, but do you ever worry, do you ever see signs of this in yourself? Or do you ever worry this is going to happen to you? Do you need to... I guess what I'm asking, I'm not... In seriousness, actually, what I'm asking is, is this a natural thing? Is it something you have to check in yourself?

That, you know, as you become so immersed in a topic, you do start seeing it everywhere. You start seeing quantum mechanics in the leaves of the tree and you can't help yourself. And you've got to like have a discipline and say, no, no, no, control yourself. Or is this just like a breakdown of the way things should be working? Right. So I was 50 on Monday. So, yeah, I'm getting on in years and the beard is graying, lung and tooth, etc. Do I try to see everything in the context of, you know, my area, which is nanoscience and quantum physics?

God, I hope not. I really hope not. It does seem to happen to some of the, it's not that prevalent, I would say. It's a relatively small population of the science, scientific community, I would say this happened to. So, am I a bit worried that 10 years down the line or 20 years down the line, I'm going to start to lose it. I don't know, I'll probably lose it in many other ways first. So, it's not that common, but also it's not that rare. Is maybe a little bit more common the, and I'm trying to think, I think there may be a correct term for this, but like the blindness of knowledge in one field

or the confidence of knowledge is applied to other fields. In other words, because I'm a brain surgeon, I'm a great driver and I know where we're going and you know what I mean? I can navigate maps. And we use that a lot. And I think most people think huge intelligence and research in one area can, you know,

well, obviously they'll know how to do everything. But of course they don't. Yeah, absolutely't yeah absolutely and again i can bring it to quantum physics that happens a lot and we we did a video a while back brady was a doctor with a very stellar track record in sort of clinical research was spouting pure nonsense about quantum physics yeah that's interesting yeah and the like i know nothing about this area and physics and like i said i walked in and looked at your blackboard and was lost. But there is a sense by which I know that that means I'm easily blindsided by people who do have knowledge in this area. Like, if you were explaining to me about music or you're explaining to me about art or explaining to me –

oh, music is something you know something about, but let's say gardening or a range of other areas. And then you were to enthusiastically say, well, we know now at the quantum level, there are all sorts of things happening where we know this can happen. Time travel actually, you know, maybe. And I would be going, well, who am I to doubt? You know what I mean? And there is so much of that. Phil, I think you're going to have to change the name of this podcast if it's your intention

to have the people as guests on the show. Yeah, we mightn't get so many except in the invitation when scientists go to seed, yes. I would like you to come and be a guest on the show. We think you have gone sufficiently to seed to be a guest on our show. You're opening yourself up here for a line of attack, though, because people are going to be saying, well, look, Phil was such a fantastic physicist And then he got into podcasting And he was just out of his depth

I've already had some adventures on the web Yeah, that's truer than you know, Tim So, speaking of physicists going outside their comfort zone And starting to spout weird and unusual theories, Phil, tell us about your book. Oh, thank you, Brady, for that opportunity to plug the book. So it's a book called When the Uncertainty Principle Goes to Eleven, which Brady has now got his free copy of and he's holding up in the air. The back, I can read the back page, which right at the start, in terms of the blurb in the back, there are deep and meaningful links between quantum physics and heavy metal no really and there there really are it's um heavy metals music obviously some of you might doubt that but really it is um a form of music and quantum physics is a

theory of waves so what's music well it's all to do with sound waves and pressure waves etc so there are those links are real. But with metal in particular, in terms of how you play the guitar, how you play the drums, in terms of the volume, in terms of the distortion, in terms of the feedback, all those types of things have analogues. And you can draw analogies with so many aspects of quantum mechanics. And not just analogies, you can draw real-world mathematical connections between the physics, let's put it that way, of heavy metal and quantum physics. So it was a real fun time to write that book.

Brady and I, I think maybe five years ago, threatened to do a video, which we never got round to, about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and its links to metal. And that's where the title of the book comes from, when the uncertainty principle goes to 11. The book comes from when the Uncertainty Principle goes to 11. What worries me, however, is that when I give this talk to schools, it's disappointing, but so many kids of sort of 16 to 18, 20-year-olds have not heard of Spinal Tap. It disappoints me. I'm looking at blank. Tim, that wasn't a blank face, was it?

You've heard of Spinal Tap. So Spinal Tap is possibly my favourite ever movie. So obviously when the Uncertainty Principle goes to 11, the goes to 11 bit is ripped straight off Spinal Tap is possibly my favourite ever movie. So obviously, when the uncertainty principle goes to 11, the goes to 11 bit is ripped straight off Spinal Tap. So I have been reading this book as you link quantum mechanics to heavy metal. I will say the three things I like about the book so far. I haven't read it all.

One is it's very much written in your voice. And I actually, I'm not just like blowing smoke up your arse here, Phil. I actually like the way Phil writes. He writes a very sort of informal, chatty way. And I really enjoy reading that because it's like a conversation with you. Thank you, Brady. Checks in the post. All right.

The second thing I like is that you got all the artwork done by Pete McPartland, who's a close friend of both of us. He's done illustrations, animations for my videos for a long time. I think you probably met him through the work he's done on our videos. Absolutely. So I'm really pleased that. Yeah, he did a fantastic job. So when I was writing the book, I'd get really excited when I got the next round of illustrations in from Pete.

And God, sorry, Pete, if you're listening to this. For all the times I sort of contacted you at five to midnight and said, could you do this, please? He's a phenomenally talented artist yeah and the third thing i really like because it's so you and it actually makes for a quite a fun read it's like one of your problems when you when you talk to phil is that his brain's always going off on all these weird tangents and he'll like go off and talk about something else and then he'll be like oh but i must make this point i must tell you that and then he forgets what he was talking about and you've got to try and steer him back to the point. And I imagine that makes it hard for Phil to write a

book. Because you've got to have a focus and a narrative. But Phil has gotten around this problem brilliantly with his use of footnotes. Because normally when you read a book, the footnotes are like the boring bits that you avoid. But with Phil, almost every page has got about eight footnotes on it, filling the bottom of each page. And each one of those footnotes is like really entertaining as well. And I actually enjoy the footnotes more than the book. I'm so glad to hear you say that. You'll make some passing reference to something and then there's a million jokes or other points you want to make about it.

I can just feel you bubbling with enthusiasm. Oh, no, no, I've got to explain this. People must know more. And then you go off on one in the footnotes. It's like uh so the footnotes are my favorite thing in the book i don't know if that's common but i love the footnotes half the book must be footnotes it is there's a there are a lot of footnotes but i'm glad glad you said i was worried and i spoke to the editor actually i've got to say this for the editor at ben bella i worked with two editors in particular and both of whom provided a huge amount of

feedback to me. What I found absolutely remarkable in writing this, so I've written, along with my colleagues, quite a number of papers over the years for academic journals, and a few book chapters as well. This was a proper publisher. With an academic publisher, let's just put it this way, deadlines will slide. That Douglas Adams quote about deadlines, which is, I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they go flying by. That's sort of my mantra. But for this, I had to bring in the chapters on time. And moreover, the level of feedback was incredible.

It's, you know, move this. You're not quite getting the right tone here. It was like a tutorial or a workshop in creative writing for me. So it was so good. So thank you, Alexa. Thank you, Laurel. So, Tim, you've been skimming it for the last couple of minutes. You've had it in your hand for the first time. What's your early review? This is a book that's good for me in a sense. Well, I know nothing about quantum physics, but I love music. I like some heavy metal. There's been a time when I listened to lots and lots of heavy metal. Which

bands? And so forth. Well, I guess it's reasonably classic. Hang on. This is actually one of the things I warned him about before meeting you. I said, don't talk about heavy metal too much. He'll really judge you by what bands you like. The great thing is we were driving past Donington at the time, and I was like, I've heard of Donington because of the Monsters of Rock Festival. And you refer to it as Donington, not Download.

It's called Donington. So they changed the name of it to Download in 94, but anybody who's a true metal fan always refers to it as Donington, not Download. It's called Donington. So they changed the name of it to Download in 94, but anybody who's a true metal fan always refers to it as Donington. Oh, right. Well done. So you've gone up so many points, brownie points now. I didn't know that. But I know from the ACDC album, the live album that was recorded there

and so forth. So, yeah, that's a classic. But I love reading rock biographies. And so I'll read rock biographies of bands that I'm not even into and love so forth. So, yeah, that's a classic. But I love reading rock biographies. And so I'll read rock biographies of bands that I'm not even into and, you know, love so much. I just have so many of them and they're just an absolute pleasure read. So this for me is somewhere in between. I'm browsing it and liking it.

I like the footnotes too. And I've just seen you're a big fan of Rush. Huge. But I love how you've mentioned how you're a big fan of Rush. And then you say that they've written so many great songs. And is it Neil? Is it Pert? Pert.

Is it Neil Pert? So that's hotly contested exactly how you pronounce that, but I'm pretty certain it's Neil Pert. Oh, okay, okay. And then you say he's written so many classics. And then you say, and a few stinkers. And then you have a footnote which lists the stinkers. That was fun.

That's the kind of academic rigour I like to see, that you're not only mounting an argument and then giving a qualification and then you're footnoting and actually listing your evidence for the qualification. And I have to say, as an academic, I found that impressive. Thank you. Sorry, Neil. So there we go, people.

Get on Amazon or wherever you buy your books from or bookshops or i don't know wherever you get a book from philip moriarty professor moriarty to his friends when the uncertainty principle goes to 11 asterix or how to explain quantum physics with heavy metal. The fruit of our friends. The fruit of our friends.