The Unmade Podcast - 83: The Gospel According to John Green

Episode Date: May 11, 2021

Tim and Brady are joined by the author/podcaster/vlogger John Green - who shares some ideas about history, structural engineering and a long-lost best-seller. Plus a spoon. Order a signed copy of The Anthropocene Reviewed book - by John Green - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/672554/the-anthropocene-reviewed-signed-edition-by-john-green/ Support The Unmade Podcast on Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/unmadeFM Join the discussion of this episode on our subreddit - https://redd.it/n9wz6p USEFUL LINKS The Anthropocene Reviewed Podcast - https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/anthropocene-reviewed John Green books on Amazon - https://amzn.to/3eBQJvL Hank Green (John's Brother) on The Unmade Podcast - https://www.unmade.fm/episodes/episode21 The Four Gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Evangelists The 18th Century - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18th_century Pictures of Spoon of the Week - https://www.unmade.fm/spoon-of-the-week Tom Grogan - Novel - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Grogan Francis Hopkinson Smith - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Hopkinson_Smith

I have a spoon. I don't have it with me. Do I need it physically present? It's good to say it because you'll describe it and tell the story of it and we'll show it. I'll go run and get it. It'll only take me three seconds. I'll be back in less than 30 seconds. Reassuring to see someone else forget their spoon. That's the one thing you never forget. Today we have the famous author and online presence, John Green. John is the writer of best-selling novels, including but not restricted to The Fault in Our Stars and Paper Towns. Are they a good two to pick, John?

Are you okay with those two? Yeah. Yeah, I'd probably pick those two. You'd pick those two? All right. He's a hugely successful YouTuber whose work includes crash course and the pioneering vlog brothers and john is a podcaster of some renown himself whose work includes dear hank and john and the anthropocene reviewed but today he has really made the big time because he is featuring on the unmade podcast yes at last

it's always difficult when my brother has paved the road for me and I know that he's been on the Unmade podcast and I've just been awaiting the ask and it finally came I'm so happy to be here I had to whittle my uh 72 ideas for podcasts down to two which was challenging but I'm excited excited. Thank you for having me. I'm a big fan, both of your rap work, Tim, but also of the podcast more generally. I'm mostly a Dutch hip-hop enthusiast, so it's great to see you joining into that community, but I also like the rest of the pod. It's brilliant to have you. And can I just say how well your brother's career has taken off since he was on the Unmade podcast?

It's true. And I tell you, I'm excited about, I think you're just going to blow up. This is going to be just a breakthrough moment for you, John. I'm excited. I'm excited. Yeah, Hank was nothing on TikTok before the Unmade podcast. Now he has 4.4 million followers there. He's a sensation. Well, yep.

And it's all thanks to you. We are the kingmakers. Now, it's especially exciting for us to have John on the podcast because he has had a podcast idea that has become a book. And that's especially interesting to us as sort of podcast connoisseurs. But we're going to talk about that at the end of the show. That is when you're going to shamelessly promote your book. But first you have to pay your pound of flesh. Yeah. And you do that by sharing half-baked podcast ideas with us. But we don't want to just throw you in the deep end, John.

That wouldn't be fair. So to warm up, I'm going to share a podcast idea to sort of show you how it works and give you the whole vibe. Yeah. I'm just going to go get a coffee. Hang on. No, Tim, you're going to like this idea. This is one tailor-made to both John as our special guest and you, Tim,

because this idea for a podcast is called The Gospels. And the premise of this podcast is to have four presenters who just chat and pontificate about whatever they see fit, the of the week great moral debates or whatever but the whole gimmick the whole premise is that the four hosts have to be named matthew mark luke and john nice that is the rule nice as is so often the case this is a adjacent to a great idea uh this is on the edge of being really something there is it's great there are lots of reasons it's not a good idea we may you you're welcome to point them out i am also willing to point them out but let me tell you about my my my dream lineup my starting lineup okay for for episode one at least i've been and i can tell you i've spent way

too much time today on the internet looking up people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and I know all sorts of amazing statistics. Can I say first of all, I'm not sure this is a new idea. Like I think this is a very, very, very old idea. Like 2,000 years old. One of the oldest. They lined up the original podcast.

That would have been an amazing podcast, but let me tell you about the lineup for my podcast. I'm going with Matthew McConaughey. Okay. Because I think he often says interesting things, and I think he's got a nice speaking voice. For sure. I'm going for Mark Hamill,

because I love Mark Hamill on the internet. I think he's great. And he can fill in as Luke when there there's a luke vacancy as well he's dual purpose luke was really really hard and i'm hoping you guys might give me a better idea for luke i what i i started even looking at lucas's and people with the last name luke i was gonna go for matt lucas who's a british comedian and tv presenter but in the end i've gone for luke goss the drummer from bros oh perfect just because Lucas, who's a British comedian and TV presenter. But in the end, I've gone for Luke Goss, the drummer from Bross. Oh, perfect.

Just because I think that's a bit of a wild card. Yeah. Yeah. Could be stories. And for my first episode for John, I'm going to go for John Grain. Because he's just a top bloke. I always find him interesting. And, you know, I have to pander because he's on the show.

It would be really fun to hang out with Mark Hamill every week. That would be pretty cool. It would be. Any guests springing to mind, you guys? I like this idea a lot. I like the idea of Luke Goss in particular. Can I just say, I don't know if people have seen the Bross documentary. There's bits of it on YouTube even called When the Music Stops.

tree there's bits of it on youtube even called them when the music stops and they just share like genius observations with unintentionally and non-intentionally very very funny there is an idea of trying to match this up with the beatles isn't there like the other fab four of history yeah you know john leonard and um but then of course you got paul which makes it a bit weird and ringo which is sort of one of the recently found manuscripts that is a bit contested. He wrote one of the Dead Sea Scrolls, yeah. That's right, yeah. I was thinking about other things.

You could have another rule where you can be a guest on the show if your name is a book of the Bible, because I was thinking that way we could get, like, Tim into the show. And I was really sad because I was thinking I've come up with an idea that I will never be involved with. And I reckon it was half an hour to an hour of me thinking, what a shame I can't be part of this podcast until I realised my middle name is John. It never even occurred to me. And it made me realise at that moment, even though I've had the name John attached to me since the day I was born, I have very, very little

attachment to it to the point where I didn't even think of it as my name for an hour. Can I ask you a related question? Did you ever consider going by BJ? I think my mum went through a phase of calling me that. She also went through a phase of calling me Bunch when the Brady Bunch was at the height of its popularity. Oh, gosh. Yeah. I mean, wasn't it her doing that you were named Brady in the first place? She can't make fun of a name she chose.

I still have not completely forgiven my mum for calling me Brady. It's a name I've never been happy with, but I've come to terms with it now. I've never been thrilled to be a John until now. Getting a nickname from your mum is kind of weird. Yeah. Yeah, because she usually gets to nail down the original name, so although I guess my brother's name is William

and he was always called Hank by my mom, so I guess it's allowed. Alright. Moms get a lot of latitude. I think that my ideal Matthew for this would be the guy from Friends, I can't remember his last name. Matthew... LeBlanc.

Something. Oh, Perry. Perry. There's two Matthews. You've got two Matthews to choose from there. You want Matthew Perry, not Matt LeBlanc. Oh, there's Matt LeBlanc. I want a rotating cast. Honestly, I can't tell the one from the other at this point. So I would take a rotating cast of Matthews. I just worry that Matthew McConaughey every week might be a bit much. But then again, I feel that way about the Gospel of John sometimes.

All right. Well, this sounds like a conversation for you two. Tim liked my joke. That sounds like it was a joke for you guys. It's like, bring someone else in, rotate around. I don't know if you know this about me, Tim, but I am a failed seminarian. I was enrolled in divinity school and then dropped out immediately because it was much too hard, which has given me a permanent gratitude to people who managed to stay in the line of work. But I do find the Gospel of John to be a bit much on occasion. Well, if it's any consolation, I've used Crash Course on your YouTube clips, particularly on the Reformation as a bit of a primer for students, actually, in my lectures.

So you've found a backdoor back into the seminary there. Yeah, that's good to hear. Tell them that I just bombed out very dramatically. They're learning from the worst possible person. John, right now, you're looking at Tim on your screen and thinking that's the man I could have been. Yeah, it is a little bit of a sliding doors moment. He has better glasses than me. So that's the other thing I'm thinking. It's just, oh, it could have gone in a better glasses direction if nothing else. Oh my God, you have made his day. And I'm looking at John and thinking, oh, that's what it looks like to be on a successful podcast. Well, enough of my gospels idea. John, you're the guy

we want to hear from. What is your idea for a podcast? Give us one. All right, I have a few ideas for a podcast. All right, here's my big idea. I've actually tried to do this podcast a few different times, a few different ways. It's called This Week in the 18th Century. Since I started trying to do this podcast, other people have had the same idea. So, for instance, there's a YouTuber who makes YouTube videos kind of week by week about World 18th century is, I think, the biggest century in world history. And I am totally fascinated by it. And we often just sort of roll right past it into the revolutions of 1848 and whatnot. But there's so much going on. This week, for instance, would be the election of Pope innocent the 13th best known for being the last pope to choose the name innocent also known as being one of like 400

popes in a row to claim to be a reformer only to have absolutely no success at reforming yes we i could talk about pope innocent the 13th hours. And you might if we don't stop you. Exactly. Watch out. Why the 18th century, John? Why is that the century, in your opinion? Well, the beginning of the emergence of the Industrial Revolution, which I think is one of the most important events in human history, the internationalization of the world.

It's also the century when the world became a world. I mean, in some ways, there had been internationalization before the 18th century, but it was a really dramatic escalation of it, I guess. And then also, there's just so many fascinating things that were going on.

Smallpox variolation, trying to figure out how we were going to deal with infectious disease, trying to figure out all these crazy ideas in art and literature. So I think you could talk about everything from religion to history to art. John, when you imagine doing this podcast, you know, when you're lying in bed at night, is it quite a prepared scripted one kind of like the Anthropocene reviewed? Or is it more, you know, chatty, jokey one? How if if you were going to do it, how would you most like to do it? Well, I think that's where the hiccup has always been. Because in a perfect world, I would love to do it as a fairly written podcast,

but with a funny person. You know, so there's there's some structure to it, because I think structure really helps podcasts. But there's enough room for experimentation for jokes for surprises, that it doesn't get so dry and boring. Like the problem with a podcast that's hosted by one person and is pre-written is that, you know, that person's voice only has one note. Like I like the Anthropocene Reviewed. I've tried really hard to make it good, but there's only one thing that my voice does. And it's nice to have another person because their voices always do other things. Tim, what are you thinking of this idea? Are you rating it?

Well, I think it is an interesting idea. I like deep dive explorations, and I like the idea of crawling your way through a century and becoming incredibly acquainted by it. It is an interesting century in the sense, a few months ago, Brady and I were talking about the national holidays of all the nations on Earth, and how so many of them essentially are celebrating their independence

from the British Empire. And that comes to define their national identity the day they were able to leave the British Empire. Of course, the 18th century was a time when all of that was kind of laid out to some degree. I mean, not all of it, but a significant amount of it. And I'm sitting here in Australia, obviously, and that's when we were colonialized as well. So a lot of that, it was defining in global in that sense. It was spreading out its arms around the world and its armies around the time, you know, so much of the sort of intellectual defenses of colonialism were formed in the 18th century by 18th century academics and intellectuals seeking to sort of, you know, justify this power grab, this land grab. And I think that's also

really interesting to talk about. I just think you could do everything with it. And also, the 18th century speaks a lot to the 21st century. They were confronting regular disease pandemics. They were dealing with the challenges that accompanied increased trade, mechanization, all that stuff. So I don't know. I think it has a lot to tell us about what now is like. John, would you have liked to have lived in the 18th century? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'll take that as a no. For people with my constitution, there is no time before now that would have been great. There is no time before now that would have been great.

I don't have, like, I mean, I would be very dead in the 18th century because I am colonized by Staphylococcus aureus. And I've had several, like, fairly serious staph infections, even for 21st century medicine. 18th century me, first off, it would have been irrelevant because I never would have made it to adulthood, but 18th century me would have had absolutely no chance. But wouldn't you have been excited by a time when the map wasn't finished? Like there was, you could look at a map and think, oh, I wonder what's out there. Oh, I can still do that. I just have to look at a map of the solar system instead of a map of the earth. I, I, I have, I have no interest in living in the past I don't think anybody who Reads a lot of history Wants to live in any time Before like five minutes ago

I mean I think the best period of history Ended in like March of 2020 Tim did your dad Tell you many stories about what life was like In the 18th century Well he was very old by then So he has forgotten a lot of it. He did say he wished there were more podcasts,

so perhaps you would have found a niche there, John. I'll say two things about John's idea that are very good, aside from the content, you know, just being an interesting listen. A good thing about it is it's a good listen year after year after year because you could just replay it year after year after year. It's also a nice franchise, because the next year you could do the 19th century and the 20th century and the 16th century. You could go wherever you wanted to. This is a big benefit of history podcasts. The premise usually can be expanded outward or inward or inside out or some way to make it keep working.

Whereas when you're doing like a true crime podcast, that's about one true crime. You get into trouble pretty quickly because like what happens if the crime gets solved? Like that's the worst thing that can happen to your podcast. Well, I think the worst thing that can happen to those true crime podcasts is the crime doesn't get solved or there is no resolution. That's even more disappointing. That's true. get solved or there is no resolution. That's even more disappointing.

That's true. When you listen for 20 episodes and they're like, at the end of all this three years of reporting, my conclusions are that I can't draw conclusions. It's not my place. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, thanks for that. All right. Well, Tim, this sounds like a podcast you'd be listening to. I'm in.

Yeah, I think it's interesting. I do. There are podcasts, though, that I listen to that I think are worthy. You know how there are worthy books and then there are the books you want to read? I have embarked on podcasts. Oh, I'm going to listen to this right through because I know I'm going to learn a lot. And then I realize I don't go to podcasts to learn a lot. I go to podcasts to learn things that I'm already interested in that I know a bit about already.

Do you know what I mean? Yes. learn things that I'm already interested in that I know a bit about already. Do you know what I mean? So it's, yes, I would worry that I would come to this with a bit like I approach the gym with good intentions because it's good for me. And then it,

the pressure is on the podcast to actually keep me coming back and be addicted in for it. Not just because I'm going to learn something or it'll be good for me, like a good book. Yeah. I think this is a problem with books and podcasts and also everything else. There's like the stuff that we aspire to like, and then there's the stuff that we actually like.

And then there's the vast majority of what the algorithms feed us, which is the stuff we are willing to ingest. Like it's the stuff that we accept that we'll watch. Like, sure, I'll watch this Netflix movie that I know isn't going to be very good because it'll be, like, much higher production value than most Hallmark movies. And I will never think about it within 30 seconds after finishing it, but I will enjoy it while I watch it. There's a lot of that stuff on YouTube.

I mean, YouTube is sort of built on that stuff. And I do worry sometimes that we don't have a good way of telling the algorithm, hey, just because like I'm willing to watch this video doesn't mean I want to like, please stop. Please stop like delivering full, full sugar Coca-Cola to my house all day long every time I think about it. Well, as someone who watched Nomadland and Deep Impact in the same day yesterday, that really resonates with me. It's both ends of the ocean. That's great. Nomadland is a great example, actually. I loved Nomadland. I loved it so much. I thought it was such a wonderful movie, but I to i had to like almost force myself to watch it yeah because i knew i could be watching i don't know terminator 7 yeah and

and that terminator 7 would do a better job of distracting me from the overall like dread and worry that that surrounds me at the moment and so i'm so grateful i watch nomadland but i almost didn't watch it yeah so i'm trying to figure out how to get past that like we're talking about the analogy between uh content these days and food that some of it's fast food and it's so tempting but it's not very good for you or it's forgettable and some of it's really good for you you got to eat your greens but it's not immediately appealing. And I think you guys have the special ability of being like, you're kind of like the parents who make healthy food,

but you kind of cook it and shape it in a way so you think that you're having, you know, like fun food as a kid, like you've cut it into funny shapes or you've made it look, here are our own home burgers. And like the kids go, great, we're having burgers. And then it's like, oh, they don't know that it's secretly got healthy ingredients in it. And you kind of smuggle them in. So your clips are like smuggling science and smuggling worthy information cooked up in a fun way for the kids to eat.

And I think that's a particular kind of genius. Well, thank you. I do feel that way very much about Brady's work, that he finds a way to compete with Mr. Beast and the Try Guys, even though he's making content about like chemistry or complex mathematics. And that is not easy. Before we move on to the next section, can I just quickly say, John, how incredibly distracting I'm finding your microphone?

Because it looks like a lightsaber from this angle. It's not even that nice of a microphone, actually. It's awesome. It's just that I love the look of it. It makes me feel like a proper podcaster, but it's not that expensive. It did. It looks awesome. John, we have a section in the middle of the show we do around this time that we call

Spoon of the Week. And normally Tim goes into his family vault and pulls out a souvenir spoon from the collection. But I asked your people, people in quotation marks, does John have a spoon? And word came back, yes, he thinks he has one that he might be able to show. So is it true that you are going to bring a spoon to Spoon of the Week? I have a souvenir spoon, but I have to say it doesn't look like the cards, the souvenir spoon cards that y'all do. And it doesn't look like most of Tim's family's souvenir spoon. So full disclosure, I'm not like a professional souvenir spoon collector.

I just have one souvenir spoon. This is it. It is a teaspoon. It has flowers on the inside of it. And I don't know exactly where it is from. It predates my marriage. So Sarah, my wife, brought this spoon into our relationship. I've never fully heard the whole story behind it. But my understanding is that it is a South American spoon that she got a long time ago, maybe from an ex-boyfriend. That's always sort of been my assumption anyway. And I think it's quite a lovely spoon. Did you marry her to get the spoon?

I didn't marry her primarily to get the spoon, but I will say when the spoon showed up in our new shared apartment, I was like, this is one of many great outcomes already from this marriage it is a porcelain spoon so it is not plastic it is not bendy and it it feels quite hefty and reliable and indeed it has has lasted for like 18 years now at least does it serve an ornamental purpose or a functional purpose in your house? I would say primarily ornamental. The only time it served a functional purpose in a meaningful way was when our kids were very little. Sometimes we would use our ornamental spoon because it was so small.

Does it have a name? Is it referred to as like the flower spoon or the South American spoon or your spoon? If you were talking about it to Sarah how would you refer to it I think I would refer to it as the souvenir spoon yeah you know like because we only have one so I think I would be like you know that souvenir spoon the one that you brought into our marriage oh where's that that would open a can of worms in the Hein household Oh yes, yes So Tim, you are the spoon expert here Tell us what you think of John's spoon I was very impressed to hear that it's porcelain That certainly adds a lot of, not just physical weight

But value and status Gravitas, if you like, to the spoon. I'm just wondering if the illustrations have been painted on handmade. It looks a bit like, no disrespect, but like a kid's primary school project for Mother's Day. You know what I mean? Yes, I believe that's correct. I think that is the overall vibe.

Now, there is a green part that's sort of a flower stem, and that part appears to be inside the porcelain and then someone painted on top of the little flowers okay oh okay so there's layers of artwork well that's that's interesting too and rare i think it's lacking uh a clear identifier though i think it needs to have like you know chili written across or peru or it like it's just kind of is a little bit too anonymous for my liking sure sure yeah it doesn't identify where it's from and if you are in in search of a souvenir spoon primarily to remind you of a time and a place this is not the spoon for you. And if you were to have another souvenir spoon come into the house, it would be hard to know how to refer to this one.

It's like it would be the first one. It wouldn't be the Peru one. And that would be difficult. So, I mean, we're naming problems associated with the spoon, which may not be totally positive and helpful, but I would want to be encouraging of the collection, but give you something to build on for the future in terms of more spoons and other spoons sure and when i come back on the unmade podcast i intend to have a really high quality souvenir spoon to share with

you that in fact is my main ambition between now and my next my next invitation back well john we've got you covered but because you shared a spoon on the podcast, that entitles you to one of these. Oh my gosh. This is the Unmade Podcast Souvenir Spoon. That is beautiful. And one of these is going to be in tomorrow's post heading your way. Wow. That is really exciting. That is so cool. You can't buy these. I'm sure you can't. You can't. Well, you probably could if you offered enough, but they'd be very hard to buy. Well, thank you very much. That's very kind.

All right. Let us move on. Tim, are you willing to sacrifice your idea for another John idea? I can hear all our listeners saying no, no, and grasping at their earphones at the moment. But I must hold them back and say, let our guest go again. Let him try one more time. To have a second swing.

Yeah, fair enough. After that boring history one give him a go everyone come on the podcast i'm actually most likely to make is a chapter by chapter uh analysis of the best-selling american novel of 1896 which was this novel called tom Grogan by a now completely forgotten novelist named Francis Hopkinson Smith. And it's a really weird book that nobody has read, which makes it like not an ideal subject for a podcast. But if I ever like fully retire from making stuff for an audience and make stuff only for myself the very first thing i will make will be tom grogan an analysis of the best-selling american novel of 1896 all right so first question yeah what the heck is this book because i have never heard of it in my life

hang on i'll just get it oh you got that first edition signed first edition there on the shelf. Yeah, I think there may. So I'm sure part of the reason that I am interested in Francis Hopkins and Smith is that I am acutely aware of the fact that I will one day be remembered as a bestselling novelist who no one remembers. So I have a little bit of a bias toward Francis Hopkinson Smith on that account. But he did live a really fascinating life. So the main thing that Francis Hopkinson Smith did in his life, he was a structural engineer, and he built the base of the Statue of Liberty and he built many other important American sea structures. He was basically

a structural engineer who specialized in things that went in or near the ocean. And Tom Grogan is a novel about the thrilling world of structural engineering in water. Wow. You're actually selling me on it now. I'm more interested than I was before. Yeah, I'm in. And it's a really wild book. person, Tom Grogan, who is suddenly being played like in a Shakespeare story or something by the person who everyone previously believed was Tom Grogan's wife. And so there's this weird

gender swapping element to it. And it's also, it's not very good. I mean, that's like an essential thing to understand about Tom Grogan. Like it's not a, there are lots of books from the 19th century that you read them and you're like, oh, that's, that's, that's quite good. Right? Like, like Leaves of Grass is quite good. And, and Moby Dick is, is quite good. And Tom Grogan is not good, but it is really weird the whole way through. And, and the whole you're thinking, a million people bought this book. It's wild. What does that say about late 19th century America that like, they could have been buying Huck Finn, but they bought this? Is it like Tootsie or Mrs. Doubtfire? Is it this kind of zany, oh, the woman's the man thing or that i don't quite get that it's definitely got a a zany mrs downfire element to it but the prop one of the problems with the book is that it is unendingly and achingly earnest it has no self-awareness that like nobody is actually

interested in how lighthouses get built and it has no self-awareness. It has absolutely no self-awareness. It is an utterly sincere work of fiction. But that's part of what I find so incredibly fascinating about it. Like, it's just, it's incredible to me that this book was so important as to be the book that everyone was talking about in this year in American history. And now you would read it and just be like, this book is obviously not just unimportant, but like not good. So yeah, I would love to do a Tom Grogan podcast someday. But that'll be the surest sign if I ever do it that I have completely divorced myself from the interests of my audience and I'm doing something entirely and exclusively for myself. Can you see past the flaws of the book to come

up with any kind of theory as to why it was a bestseller? Like, have you been able to sort of intellectualize that in any way? It's a good- ish love stories there's two things going on for it one is that francis hopkinson smith was hot off the success of the best-selling american novel of 1894 which is a much better book about the building also about structural engineering of ocean side spaces but but that book is book is like not about anything else. Like it's only a sort of like loving ode to the pleasures of building a lighthouse. Tom Grogan has some romance going for it, which is definitely an asset in the story. And then it also, frankly, like a lot of really popular books, one thing that it does well for its audience is it reinforces unjust power structures. the people who benefit from those unjust power structures will read that art and be like, oh, yes, this makes me feel better about having the position in society that I have and makes me feel less like the position in society I have is owing to some form of structural

injustice. And so that, I guess, is kind of the main thing it has going for it. But that's not really a compliment. Tim, you're the book lover on this podcast. Do you ever read books that old? Do you read old books or do you normally read newer books? I don't really know if you read those oldies. I've got a whole

structural engineer's section of my bookshelf that I keep well... I must say the 18th century section of that part of the bookshelf is thinner than it is at John's house. I will say they're the only two novels I've ever read that are really heavily devoted to structural

engineering, which is its own, you know, its own subgenre. And I'm sure for people who love how lighthouses get built, it was really exciting. And I think that was part of the charm in the late 19th century was that, you know, there were these big monolithic structures that were being built and they were astonishing to people and people wanted to know like what are the secrets behind the base of the statue of liberty yeah like mega structures and things like that yeah yeah you know like now we have this american tv show how How It's Made, where we see how like Skittles get made or whatever. And people lap that stuff up. But of course, you couldn't have a How It's Made TV show in 1896 America. So you got Tom Grogan.

How many times have you read Tom Grogan? Two, which was which. So the other thing is that if I really did this podcast, I'd have to probably have to dive pretty deep. And there I didn't get a lot out of it the second time. So I'm not sure what I would get out of it a third time. Why do you think he didn't write a nonfiction book about structures I've made or how structures are made? Why did he case it in this narrative? I don't know.

I got really obsessed with the guy for a while, because there isn't actually that much that's known about him. His son went on to write some nonfiction. And there was that genre in the late 19th, early 20th century of sort of nonfiction stories of the, you know, fantastical world that we are building. I think he, his wife died, this guy, Francis Hopkinson Smith, his wife died when he was like 31. And he seemed to have almost like a massive break in his life. And he went from being the structural engineer to becoming a writer and artist. He was actually in his life as well known for his visual art as he was for his writing. And he'd never traveled before she died. He'd never left the United States. He'd never written anything. He'd never made art of any kind. And then after she died, he was going to Venice and making, you know, these landscape paintings of the Venice canals, and he was writing novels. And so I think, I mean, my opinion is that part of it was maybe a response to that loss, since it was so dramatic and sudden, this shift in career he had, and maybe he wanted to go away from the non-fictional world toward a more sort of romantic world. And it is a love story, I guess guess and so maybe that was part of it too john your podcast the anthropocene

reviewed is excellent thanks uh it's one of the one of the one of the better podcasts going around and you have now turned into a book for people unfamiliar with this could you could you quickly explain what the podcast is to start with and then tell us how you've bookized it yes much like this podcast the shtick of the podcast is not really that closely related to the podcast you know that's a it's a tried and true trick in the world of podcasting but the idea is that i review different facets of the human-centered planet on a five-star scale. So instead of Yelp reviews of restaurants and barbershops and books and whatever else, I review cholera or Staphylococcus aureus or the Taco Bell breakfast menu. Taco Bell breakfast menu. And it's just an excuse for me really to write about what I want to write about and to try to make sense of how weird being a human is in the 21st century. I mean, we are in

this intensely weird historical moment of being at once far too powerful, wildly powerful, far too powerful, wildly powerful, unprecedentedly powerful, able to shape the planet's climate. And yet, at the same time, we are powerless. We are utterly powerless before a single strand of RNA. And so it's a really weird time to be a human. But then also consciousness itself is very weird, like so weird that we often don't talk about how weird it is. And I guess this book is my attempt to try to make sense of that. I started out as a podcast back in 2018. My brother largely inspired it as he has inspired so much of my work. And then over time, as I was writing more of these essays, I started to understand them also as a way of me trying to write about myself and the world as I experience it in the places where my little life runs into these massive forces of the Anthropocene. Can I just say, like, for people who haven't heard

the podcast, John obviously is a very good writer, and he reads these essays very well as well. So, it's quite, you know, obviously, it's a a good listen you do make it sound very serious there i don't i think you kind of oh yeah you you miss out the sort of the whimsy and the fun of it there is there is a there is a funniness to it that i think uh shines through right you can't review the taco bell breakfast menu without making some jokes and yeah i think that's one of the things that makes it really hard to talk about writing or any kind of creative endeavor is that you always end up essentializing it when you talk about it. But yeah, I want it to be super funny. Like I want it to be.

I mean, I've always liked my favorite stuff is always stuff that makes you makes you laugh the whole way through. And then at the end, you don't quite know why you're crying. way through and then at the end you don't quite know why you're crying the thing i want to ask about going from the podcast to the book because it's it's actually it seems like quite low-hanging fruit really to take a whole bunch of excellent essays and think well this would we could make this a book as well do you think there's anything that's lost and do you think there's anything that's gained taking this format and this concept from the podcast form that you've been doing it and for all these years and binding them together as a book with some new content, of course. Yeah, there's a lot that's lost because in the podcast, I benefit so much from scoring.

The podcast is a collaboration with WNYC for most of its run. And so I had brilliant composers like Hannes Brown making music for it. And I think that made a huge difference. And then as far as what's gained, it's the opportunity to, in a subtle, small way, tell an ongoing story. So the essays can also form a larger narrative, both a larger personal narrative that charts like my personal journey from being a little kid watching Haley's Comet with my dad to then being a father myself and walking in the woods with my kids but also this this other journey that all of humanity is on together over the last 40 or 50 years where we became cognizant of how important we are and how bad a job we've done at being important. Tim, have you ever listened to John's podcast?

I have. I have. Yeah. I think it's absorbing, actually. You're right about the score as well. And I wasn't cognizant of it, but now you say it, it does add so much and draw you in as well. Not that because that's absent in the book it won't be worth reading because the content's great as well. I have to say... We're not doing a great job of selling the book here, are we? If the composers are releasing a soundtrack, that's worth getting. Let's say...

Yeah. Now I'm endorsing an entirely different product, unrelated to you. Maybe a five-hour soundtrack. Sell the soundtrack, read the book with that in the background. Yeah. I mean, basically,

we're just reinventing the podcast now, aren't we? Yes, we're going right back to the beginning. There are some things that work for audio that don't work on the page, right? Like there are things that you can get away with. I review this bird species and in the podcast and I'm able to like play its call. And that's a really big moment. You can't have that in a book, right? But in a book, you can get away with a lot of things that you can't get away with an audio. Like there's a lot that you can accomplish through space breaks. There's a lot that you can accomplish in like the way you

organize the essays and everything. So I also thought it was low hanging fruit, to be honest with you. I was like, I've written this book over the last three years, and 99% of it is done. And then over the last year, I realized that like, actually, very little of it was done. And I had a lot of work in front of me, but it was good work and absorbing work. The other thing is that in the middle of all of this, of course, the pandemic came and that changed the podcast dramatically, and then also changed the book dramatically. And so a lot of the early essays needed, felt different to me in the wake of what happened. So that definitely changed the book as much as it changed the podcast. Well, I will get this book and I will read this book.

But your books have a particular special place in my kind of family in a way, because you are the author who had the role, like you were at the place where for the very first time, what my girls were reading and what, you know, what I had met accidentally, like you have children and you give them books. Hey, I read this when I was young, read this. And sometimes they read it and sometimes they don't. But I have to say, it was a beautiful moment when I was in my daughter's room and I happened to find The Fault in Our Stars just sitting in there. And I said, oh, wow, John Green. And she said, yeah, everyone at school's

reading that. And she's read it. And I said, we have that downstairs. Like this was one from the library. I said, that's downstairs. I was like thrilled. It was like this awesome moment of, oh, we're finally, finally you know we've connected oh that's so great accidentally and she was surprised and i was surprised and that was really really cool but she said everyone's reading it of course it was like you know der dad like everyone's right you know what i mean like i was suddenly the johnny come lately to the situation well but no you really you were the hipster fan who had the who already had the copy of it who didn't wait for it to become popular on the Australian playgrounds.

Like, you were way ahead of the game. That's right. That's usually where I take my cues, particularly with the structural engineering genre, which I find that the young people of Australia are grasping onto. It's blowing up right now. Well, Tim, you can go home now and like just casually pick up that book and go oh you know john green you know he's got an unmade podcast spoon don't you yeah i fear the fact that i'm talking to you and that you've appeared on the unmade podcast may put a dampener on her likelihood of reaching for the next book and that may spread through the schoolyard

yeah that's a real problem for sure i'm i'm now worried that uh being on the unmade podcast has has resulted in like negative three book sales there were three people who like when i when i came on they were like i'm 100 ordering the anthropocene reviewed john's first book of non-fiction and now they're like yeah maybe not. That's all three of our listeners. So to those three who are listening, don't be deterred. The Anthropocene Reviewed. We will have links in the notes for this podcast if you would like to go and buy it. And you should.

You should listen to the podcast and you should check out the book. Actually, I'm recommending a book I haven't read yet because I haven't got a copy. I'm assuming it's good because your other books are so good. I'm going out on a limb for you, John, and recommending a book I haven't read. Thank you. I'll send you both one, even though it will make me far less cool in your family, Tim.

Yeah. Thank you. Thanks so much for your time, John. And finally, one last thing in the final minute we've got. I'll pull back the curtain, people. Before this episode, I said to John, you can send a few ideas to check that we haven't already done them as if we would have done that tom grogan one and he sent he sent through he sent through three ideas uh and the third idea which you which you didn't do today by your choice i didn't say what ones

you should choose the third one that you suggested that you didn't do is an idea I've been sitting on since episode one of the Unmade podcast, just waiting for my moment. And when you sent that through, my heart sank because I thought I was going to get scooped on my own podcast. So I'm so glad you didn't choose it. It's such a good idea. I hope that it is not an unmade podcast i hope someday you make it and when you do make it brady i want you to call me because i have a case for you all right all right it's your case is strikingly similar to one or two of the cases that are we must talk about it sometime we must talk about yes yes well the next time I'm on to show off my burgeoning spoon collection, I'll be sure to pitch that podcast.

So every time Brady says an idea on the podcast, I'm going to have to ask now, is this your John Green idea? Is this? Thanks for having me on, guys. It's so nice to talk with you. I'm a huge fan of both what both of y'all are doing. And it's a joy to listen to the podcast. And now I know for a fact what Hank told me,

which is that it's also a joy to be on it. So thank you.