The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby - Jinger Duggar: Family Secrets, People Pleasing & Fleeing Stalkers

Episode Date: January 15, 2025

Jinger Duggar Vuolo and her husband Jeremy share their journey of breaking free from IBLP, finding balance as parents while keeping their kids off social media, and navigating life under constant public scrutiny. Jinger opens up about her disordered eating, the pressure to people please, and the symbolic freedom of learning to swim as an adult. This episode is sponsored by Nutrafol, Lume, RocketMoney & Orgain. Nutrafol: Visit https://nutrafol.com and enter promo code UNPLANNED for $10 off your first month’s subscription and free shipping! Lume: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @lumedeodorant and get 15% off with promo code UNPLANNED at https://LumeDeodorant.com! #lumepod RocketMoney: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to https://RocketMoney.com/unplanned. Orgain: For 30% off your order, head to https://Orgain.com/UNPLANNED and use code UNPLANNED. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Growing up in the teachings of Bill Gothard, we are supposed to keep our husbands happy and just doing whatever they want us to do. It was terrifying for me to be able to speak up against that. How do you call all of your siblings and your parents every week? Is there a calendar schedule? There's no way! Like you'd have to call two to three people a day. Oh my word, it's so true!

My thought process was constantly about food. I had friends who naturally were like super skinny and I would look at these girls and I kept thinking, well I'm just not pretty enough. Do you guys have a plan for the birth? My birth plan is literally to go in and have the baby. I just don't like to plan a lot of things. We're close up of the unplanned side. Oh unplanned, duh. We sat down with Ginger Dugger and Jeremy Volo who revealed the shocking truths behind Ginger's new book, People Pleaser. Imagine being relentlessly stalked by paparazzi as an adult after growing

up in the public eye. Ginger recalls the chilling reality of memorizing suspicious cars outside her home in LA just to stay safe. This conversation will leave you rethinking everything that you thought you knew about Ginger's life. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the OnPlay podcast. Don't please, don't please. Today we are joined by Ginger and Jeremy. Let's give it up. My favorite form right now. I think Jeremy hypes you up. You guys are pregnant.

She's pregnant. What are your thoughts on saying you guys are pregnant or we're pregnant? I feel like I always say I'm pregnant. No, we're pregnant. That would be weird, right? I like it when other people say you I'm pregnant. No, we're pregnant. Oh really? Because that would be weird, right? I like saying, I like it when other people say you guys are pregnant or like, because I'm like, thank you, like I do need a little help with this.

It's weird if I say it. She's pregnant, we're expecting. Yes. Yes, yes. There you go. Is that okay? That makes a lot more sense, I like that. I feel like I kind of adopted the whole we're pregnant thing

because I thought Abby liked it if I said that. I do. But I feel like everyone's different and that's okay. Because like we're a team. That's okay. We're a team and this is like, we're pregnant thing because I thought Abby liked it if I said that. I do. But I feel like everyone's different and that's okay. Because we're a team. We're a team and this is like we're in this together. Yes. But I'm definitely the one who's pregnant.

Yeah, oh for sure. I like that, we're expecting Abby's pregnant. Which I feel like last time we talked. I'm not pregnant. Really? Okay, okay. Wow. Oh my God, oh my God.

Oh man, that would be crazy. Oh my god. But the last time we talked to you guys, you guys weren't certain if you were going to have another baby. We weren't sure. That's true. I was a little like, okay, I was so comfortable with where we were with our girls and I was starting to like really feel like we've hit a rhythm.

We're in a good place and so I wasn't wanting to like just jump into having a third kid immediately so that's why there's like a four year age gap now. Is it four years? It's gonna be four years. Oh my gosh. She just turned four. Oh that's true. Which is wild. Wait that's the age gap I have with my brothers. Crazy. Is it okay? And I'm not as close to my younger brother as I am my older brother. We're just not gonna talk about that. So then we're gonna have to have another one. So now we have to have another one in two years. But now we're getting closer again. I feel like they're having a boy so it was gonna be different anyway. Wow. So you're predicting it. I'm predicting it. I love that. I believe, hey, I believe it. They know. Wait, you guys already know. They know it. They haven't had their party. Do you have a date? Do you have a date? Is there a special date that you're announcing? Uh, I think in a few days after this podcast, there's gonna be an announcement.

Oh my gosh. Wait, so by the time this is out, everyone's gonna already know. I'm gonna be publicly humiliated. Okay, you guys will already know by the time this is out, but we're saying boy, because we're like guessing the future basically. I just feel like they're gonna have a little version of Jeremy. We'll see. I feel like they are. We'll see. I don't mind that.

They have good poker faces. It's a good prediction. How are you doing with the pregnancy? This pregnancy has been the same as the other ones were and I am now like far enough along to where I'm not nauseous. Very thankful and yeah, 25 weeks. Wow. That's so far.

That really is. It is, yeah. It's flown by in a sense. Like the beginning never flies by. You always feel like rubbish, but getting past that and then being now on a stage where I just feel like this is the happy stage. Like I feel like I have more energy

and I'm actually able to like get projects done, things like that. It's kind of nice. Is there anything that is frustrating? Like I know with Abby Abby when she was pregnant, Abby loves to like, scald her skin when she's like in the shower and the bath. That's me every day.

So I'm like, yo Abby, you can't make the water 200 degrees when you're pregnant. You would always touch the water and be like no. Sorry I don't shower in lava. Like I like water to shower. Yeah, it's just crazy though. Nothing's changed there because I'm like, I know I can't, not taking like a scalding

bath but like a shower. It's unbelievable. It's fine. As long as it's on my back, I'm good. And I just cannot change the temp because then I'm freezing. Yes, it's really cold otherwise. Freezing. Yeah.

I would take a bath when I was pregnant and I would just dip his finger in it and he's like, Abby! That's why I don't. I don't even take a bath. Trying to cook this baby? Like what's going on man? I know. I was like he's fine.

I hate cold, I hate it when it's cold. When I say cold, I mean like Jeremy would feel like he was boiling in my cold water. So I can't take a bath because I know I will want it boiling. And so I just, I'm like showers are the way to go. That's it. I was very careful. Do you guys have like a plan for the birth?

Cause I know some people are like, hey, we'd like do a home birth or we like to do a natural birth. Any certain preferences there that you really want? Jeremy, what are you planning? Because Jeremy, we've been talking about this on our podcast a couple episodes ago because there's such a culture around certain types of birth. And people feel very passionately about it. And I want to understand that. I can't relate to that. But because my thinking is just safely deliver this child. So use everything that you have at your disposal

to make the safest, easiest delivery. Like for real though, so we, whenever we were first talking about like Felicity's birth and I just like a lot of my sisters had complications with theirs and they were like all trying to do home births or like have midwife or be at a birth center and it just they would get transported and I was like I'm not doing that and Jeremy for sure was like no way like we're not going that route because it's just well I wasn't against a midwife or a birth center. No, we did that.

But like we had them in the hospital with us. So there's a difference. Like you're there if you need, if you have an emergency you're not being transported. So that's what we decided to do. But my birth plan is literally to go in and have the baby. Nice. That's how I plan.

Because if I plan anything else, it's not gonna happen. That's what I feel like. I feel like birth is, you can, well this is gonna happen. That's what I feel like. I feel like, Bertha, you can, well, this is my personal opinion. Let me just say that. I feel like with the ones who planned so much out, they were more stressed because their plan did not go as planned.

For me, I'm not a planner in general. I just don't like to plan a lot of things. We aren't either, actually. So. Close up of the unplanned side. Oh, unplanned stuff. But seriously, I just like to go in and I am- You're explaining not planning to the masters of not planning.

Yeah. This is great. So I go in and I'm like, okay, I know I'm going to labor as long as I can without an epidural and then I will get an epidural and then I will have the baby. That's what I want to do. That's my plan and I don't like even the doctors they're like okay well you don't you're kind of gonna like go through some doctors and see who's on call and I'm like that's fine let's do that. So I'm not like worried about it. Yeah because if I think about it then I will get freaked out. We have a friend in Hawaii that bought an inflatable pool and booked a hotel room on the North Shore and filled up the inflatable pool with water and gave birth to their child in that hotel room.

I'm never going to stay at a hotel again. Bro, you never know what goes on in hotels. If you were in Meadertow, you'd be like, of course you did that. And of course it was everything that you wanted. Such a fun person to be around too. I love that. If you are buying inflatable pools to give birth in a hotel room, you're probably a really fun person to be around too. Like I love your energy. So if that's you, if you are like buying inflatable pools to give birth in a hotel room,

like you're probably a really fun person. I want to hear from you. She was an hour from the hospital. No, no, no, no. I feel like you guys should send it. Honestly, that's what I would do if I were you guys. Bro. What the heck?

We have a leave action. We have a leave action. We have a scheduled C-section. Let's go, get it done. Do the opposite of that. When she sees the inflatable pool come from Amazon, should we like share? Get it out now. We have a pool already. Why is this here? Why do we have a reservation for my due date at the Sheldon?

I can't. It's the La Quinta. You get a call in your room. Why is there so much noise coming from it? Is it like someone's giving birth? The thing is though, in hotels, honestly, I'm always thinking of germs. And I just like, I will keep my shoes on and I'll like have these things because I'm like, who knows what took place in this room? I don't want to think about it.

That's not what I'm thinking about. I cannot, I can't fully relax. And now knowing that, that's starting me. Matt really thinks he's a good idea. He really is that's starting. That's horrible. When I go to a hotel, I'm like, how many children were conceived in this hotel room right now? You just don't know what goes on. Wait, speaking of hotels and honeymoon stuff.

Wait, should we jump into that? That is funny. I read your newest book coming out January 14th and I've been filling Matt in on all the fun stories and tidbits about it. Also there's so many parts of the book where I just wrote Matt for him to read because Matt could gain a lot from this book as well. Yep. You were talking about how you had planned like a second honeymoon in California and

it was gonna be like a little bit of work, a little bit of fun, and you had this gorgeous Airbnb. Talk about it a little bit. Oh yeah, we had a plan. It was so great. We were gonna go to Burbank area and it was in the Equestrian Center, whatever, and we were gonna go there and stay at this Airbnb. So we booked it online.

This was our very first time ever going to an Airbnb. And from the photos, it was like a white picket fence. The house was like gorgeous. So we were super excited. As soon as we pulled up, we were like, wait, this doesn't look like the picture, but maybe it is, like maybe something's different. You know, we're gonna go inside and see. So literally in the front yard, it was all dirt. Maybe something's different. We're going to go inside and see."

So, literally in the front yard, it was all dirt. It was all torn up. In the pictures, it was luscious green grass, white picket fence, flowers, everything. So, you didn't even have a coat because they said the host was going to meet you there or something. So, the host, we knocked on the door and the hosts opened the door and you've got to tell them what happened. Well, yeah, she just started showing us around and we started to like pick up cues like, wait a second, are we not the only ones here? Oh my gosh.

So we go back to our- Oh, you figured that out really quick. We go back to our bedroom, there's no locker on the door. No. The door hardly closes. I mean, it got weird. Oh, and there wasn't even like a full room. So like this is part of it.

When you open the door to the room we were supposed to stay in, on the backside are double French doors that don't lock and there's a sheet hanging up and that's your headboard. Shut up. You're gonna get murdered. That is your headboard. Yes. Oh, it gets worse. We were trying to figure out like, okay, what the heck is happening right now. We don't understand

We just don't get it So then she leads us out of our room down the hallway to the bathroom and she's like when you go to the bathroom When you take a shower leave the window open and she shows us so we're looking at doesn't lock either Not the doors locked but she was like, okay look out she said and, it doesn't lock either. None of the doors locked. But she was like, okay, look out. She said, and out there, don't mind. No, no, no, there's a woman walking, an old woman walking, and I went, who's that? And she goes, don't mind her. She's just out there, she's just trimming roses.

And there were beautiful flowers in the backyard. And she's out there, this older lady just methodically trimming roses with her little scissors. But she wants you to leave the window open, right? So we're like, this is weird. Then we come out and she leads us to the kitchen, which was a gorgeous kitchen. Well, she opens the fridge and starts saying, you can eat that, you can't eat that, don't touch this, you can have this shelf.

And we were looking at each other like, what did we get ourselves into? Because we were supposed to be staying for like four nights or something and And then in the living room there was a guy laying on the couch Watching TV but the TV silent because he's literally laying on the couch brought out and We realized we were we had to get out of there. This feels like an opening scene to a horror movie. Why do I feel like we would have just been like, alright. No, oh no, okay. That's the point. That's why you told the story in your book, isn't it? So this is it. As we were trying to figure out what to do, we went to Chip King and each other

and we were just like, this really sucks. So we told her, we're like, well, we're gonna be back. We left something that was not expensive, like a tiny little bag there in the room to make it look like we were coming back. But we left, went to Chipotle, and just sat there like, ugh, what are we gonna do? And we weren't well off, we didn't have a lot to like,

just like, oh, screw this, we're gonna leave, we're going. We couldn't do that. And so we were trying to figure out, if we have this deposit in there, we want to make sure we can get it back. Or we don't know what to do, but we were not gonna stay there. We were gonna do whatever we had to get out of there.

But it was a hard decision to make because as a people pleaser, you just feel bad because she also was like, she was there talking to us. It wasn't like, you know. That's harder, you're not just saying messaging. Yeah, it's her house. So we talked about it and we came up with a plan

that we were gonna go back and tell her, hey, this is not what we expected. We thought we had the entire house. This is our first time using Airbnb. And so that's what we did. And whenever we told her that, then she was like, well you should have read the description. Maybe it was, you know, like it was in the description

or something, I don't know if it was or not, but they didn't say a guy was gonna be laying on the couch and you couldn't lock your door and there was rows in the backyard, you know? So we basically were just like, okay, like I don't know what to do. And we said, well, we're just so sorry, but we just, we can't stay. Because this is basically like a second honeymoon for us.

We were newly married. We just wanted our own space. And she's like, I understand, but you should have read the description. She was very kind, though she did give us some of our deposit back. Which was a blessing, but we didn't get it all back right. So we were like, ugh. Anyhow.

And then she proceeds to, she was like, well if you're not staying here, where are you staying? And I was literally looking up hotels at the time, she grabbed my phone out of my hand. She grabs your phone out of. Grabbed my phone out of my hand. That's creepy phone out. Grabbed my phone out of my hand. That's creepy. And she starts looking through,

oh nope, that's a bad area. She was definitely trying to move it in there. This is a bad area, okay, you need to go here. Yeah. She definitely had some sketchy stuff planned. I felt that, yes. Because it was like, what's happening? The sheet by the window, are you kidding me?

Yeah, it's crazy. It was insane. So we made it out, and I think in that though, I don't know, I always would feel so bad It was insane. So we made it out and I think in that though like I I don't know like I always would feel so bad to say no to somebody to tell him like, okay I'm not gonna be able to you know Stay here or whatever it is like if it's a sketchy doctor's office and there that also happened to me Oh, yeah

And it was like hot in there and it was like in a sketchville and you're just like why are we here? Yeah, but they're like, why are you leaving? And I was like hot in there and it was like in a sketchville and you're just like why are we here? But they were like why are you leaving? And I was like okay we'll wait for the doctor. Jeremy's like get out we're gonna like we can't we can't stay you know so those types of things I'm always like trying to be accommodating trying to make everybody happy and I realized at the end of the day it's not worth it. You can't you can't just continue to accommodate everyone. Even the safety of your own lives, right? It's just not good.

I resonate with your book so much because I have always felt the need to please others. And it's honestly a survival tactic in a way. It felt like, oh, if everyone else is happy, then I'm going to be safe. But then you lose yourself in that when it's like you're constantly doing whatever everybody else wants. And it's like, what do I want? What do I care about? What matters to me? What was the moment that you realized that you needed to start having more self respect? I think growing up in the setting that we had talked about like last time, just of the teachings of Bill Gawthard, a lot of that was like, okay, we are supposed to be peacemakers, especially as women, we're supposed to keep

our husbands happy and so just doing whatever they want us to do and say, a lot of those things were kind of playing into my people pleasing already and giving me even a deeper foundation of like, okay, this is how I need to please everyone around me. And so being agreeable, being helpful in every way and not thinking twice about what I actually think. And so even when we were first married, I noticed it in a lot of ways because Jeremy

would ask me like, hey, where do you want to go to dinner? Or do you want, what do you want for lunch? And I would just be like, whatever you want, babe. Because I was just trying to keep them happy. And that was something that I saw just throughout my growing up years, but it wasn't until I went to write Becoming Free Indeed that I realized how much of a people pleaser I was.

And that started showing up everywhere because in that book I was going to be exposing this horrible teaching that was leading us to like a very bad place and me, my friends, loved ones, and it was terrifying for me to be able to speak up against that because I knew it was gonna ruffle people's feathers. I knew that it was not gonna be the easiest thing

for everyone to hear and that was the thing that really made me see like wow, I am so consumed with what they think about me that I'm not even willing to speak up for those who are in, who are still in that place. And that was the moment that I think it kind of dawned on me. It was like a light bulb moment because I felt like for so many years I was like, I could never do that. I could never speak up against this teaching because it's just too hard as a people pleaser.

It's just too hard for me. I kept thinking, oh, I know this friend who could do it because they're really bold, but that's never going to be me. But then when no one else spoke up about it, then I realized I have to. It came to the point where I knew that that was something I had to do. I think that that moment really was transformative for me because No longer was I able to just live in that comfort of keeping everybody happy with me I knew okay the second this is released it can cause issues and I have to be okay with that

Mmm, Jeremy. What was that? Like from a husband's point of view seeing your wife struggle with feeling the need to people please feeling the need to you know probably yeah you're you're taught as a kid growing up in the strict upbringing that you had is you know children obey your parents you feel this this need to always please everyone how how did you navigate that and help Ginger navigate that as her husband? We had a lot of conversations about it because I started to notice that about her people pleasing, wanting to keep everything, everyone at bay, everyone happy. And whether that meant, you know, trying to put on a show for other people or not saying the wrong

thing. And so the conversations we had about the timing of writing this book, Becoming Free Indeed, which led to People Pleaser, was who are we trying to please, ultimately? Because by trying to keep certain people happy, you're keeping other people sad and in bondage, and victims. So you need to be okay standing up to someone who isn't gonna be happy with you in order to genuinely

please or help or genuinely love others for being hurt. So it was like this bully we've talked a lot and you write about this in your book but we talked a lot about the bully where it's like you don't want the wrath of the bully so you're willing to allow those people to be bullied so that he's happy with you. Well you need to switch around who you're trying to please. And so for her it was, I think, a gradual coming to that understanding and then she's so courageous

and she's ultimately driven by a love for others. Now it's not always easy, but when that really clicked with her and we were having those conversations, I think she realized, okay, I have to do this. But like you just said, in the writing of that, writing Becoming Free Indeed was like the greatest therapy because she was learning a lot about herself. Yeah.

And so then coming out of Becoming Free Indeed, and even her and I seeing just so much growth, she was looking back going, wait a second, like people pleasing is an issue in my life. Yeah. Which led to her wanting to write, you know, the next. Okay, I got to do a test right now. I know we're getting lunch after this. Ginger, where do you want to get lunch at?

Well, I was going to say, wherever you want. Whatever you want. Hey, make a decision right now. Is that right? Is that the right answer? What do you want? What do you want? You know, it depends on the day.

What I want is sushi that I can't have. No! But I can have baked rolls. Wait, yes. Wait, what? So what if we go to a baked sushi place after this? There we go. Let's freaking go. We love sushi. Let's do it. We love it. No, I'm so proud of you because I feel like, yeah, the people please her and you probably always want whatever anybody else wants. No, you just said it. Did she pass the test? Let's freaking go That's awesome. I just about knocked this mic down. I think one of the stories I feel like so many of us moms can relate to when reading that book is the story about the Cheerios and the kitchen table. Yes, because I thought it was hilarious So I should let you tell the story about the Cheerios

and then I have a couple thoughts too because I know that would be my kid. Oh yeah, totally. So it was like my, now one of my best friends, this was like when I was first getting to know her, right? So I was like, she asked if she could stop by my house and it was like last minute. So she comes in and I was standing there talking to her.

I was already thinking in my mind like, okay, she asked me to come over and I'm going to say yes, but my house is not that clean. And that's always the first thing that comes to mind as a mom. Like your house will be spotless. It will look so good and no one comes over for two days. And then the second that somebody wants to come last minute, it's a wreck, right? That's how it always happens. And it can look like, man, I never clean my house, but you just wouldn't know what a clean freak I actually am. So you just have to come on

the right day. Well, my friend comes over and she's chatting with me and I was like, this is so nice. I'm so glad I had her come over. And then I turn around and her little baby is on the floor and she's getting under the table and eating old dried Cheerios that made them from the day before. And I was just like, oh. So I felt so bad and I quickly apologized. So mom was like, I'm so sorry.

My floors are so dirty. So when she was there, I just went and got a broom and started trying to pry them off with the dustpan just like you know they get stuck I was like scraping off these old Cheerios off the floor and she's like it's fine Ginger don't worry about it like we're just happy to be here and she was so chill and we had like the best conversations that day and the sweetest time and that actually it actually transformed my mind, my mindset and thinking because I thought, okay, I could have traded down.

I could have just said, okay, my house is not clean, it's not perfectly clean and I just don't want you to see that I don't have everything together. But in that time, the way that she responded to kind of disarmed me and I was like, okay, she's not judging me for this. She might later, but no, she's not judging me in the moment and I was like okay she's not like judging me for this. She might later but no. She's not judging me in the moment and she was being a true friend. Yeah. And after that it was actually really cool because like the closer friendship would be you know started to form and this friendship really took off and now she's the one who comes to my house like if I have something

that a project then she'll come to my house and be like, okay, I have an hour, let's tackle it. And then I'll go to her house. So we switch off all the time on projects that we need to have done, or like she needs help cleaning her house. So I'll pop over for an hour with, you know, Evy. And it's great, like, it's actually built

more of like a genuine friendship where we don't feel like we have to have everything all together. We can look a mess, our house can be a mess, our kids cannot have it all together, but we don't care because that's what genuine friendship is, is in that place of us not just trying to keep a front of who we want people to think that we are, but they're able to actually come into our life and see, okay, they don't have it all together, I don't either, we don't have to keep up this front, and that's how I've now had the best friendship

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And you can start your hair care journey too with NutriFull. For a limited time, NutriFull is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to NutriFull.com and enter promo code UNPLANNED. Find out why over 4,500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend NutriFull for healthier hair. Nutri-Ful dot com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com promo code unplanned. That's Nutri-Ful dot com promo code unplanned. It's just so weird how our brains lie to us and tell us, oh, you need to be perfect. You can't have any Cheerios on your floor. They're not going to be your friend. So make sure

there's no Cheerios. Our kids will be like, freeze that! Yeah, totally right. But in reality, in reality, I feel like, you know, you're working super hard to be this perfect person is going to push people away. And it does. I've seen that in my own life where I went so badly to like, for people not to think I'm weird, that they end up thinking that I'm weird.

Yeah. Because you act weird, because you're like, you're, you're, you're fear of the thing you don't want to do ends up becoming greater than the desire you have for the thing you actually want. And I just, I love that that moment kind of helped bond you as friends because you realized, oh, she actually likes me for who I am and I don't have to put on for this person. For sure. That actually made me think about how we had just moved in October and like we had barely

been, we had boxes everywhere you know moving you guys have just done it oh yeah it's like a disaster and I have a bunch of mom friends that also have like one and two year olds like really little kids and they were like looking for a place that we could take all the kids I was like let's just go to our house like because and I because that's just me and then like as I was quickly regretting that when they started coming in I'm like there's boxes everywhere There's so much stuff and then they're like looking at some of the boxes They're like is this your new coffee table? Like are you like and I was like, yeah

I'm sorry like we'll just go to the playroom like trying to shuffle them away from that Yeah, not that was clean either But I was like don't look at all this disaster. And they're like, let's put this together. Why don't we put this up right now? The kids will just go in the playroom. All the moms, we shuttled them up to the playroom. They put together my coffee table.

And got rid of the boxes and everything. I was like, that is genuine friendship. Because it's not like they even are okay with the mess. They enter into it and like want to like participate and like help, I don't know. That was the sweetest thing. It was really, really sweet. That is so good.

Yeah, because we do initially, but yeah, we do initially just think like, oh, they're gonna think so much less of us if we don't have everything together and if we don't keep up this like facade of who we think we're supposed to be and I think in that time we do lose ourselves. And like you were even saying,

some of it can be a survival thing. Like it really can be and how we process. And we can think, okay, like, you know, there are times where maybe you have to keep somebody happy with you because they're not a healthy person to be around. And so you just have, you feel like you have to like keep them happy until you can get out of that situation.

And like that can be another coping mechanism that we try to use. But it also is like there are different sides to it, but when it comes to genuine friendship, you're not able to build that unless you let people into the messy sides of your life as well as the good sides. And so that's something that it's so hard for all of us to do every single day. Something I've been talking about too with like my sister-in-law's and like some of my friends is like as like someone close to someone whether it's a family member or a friend, I feel honored when they like invite me into like a messy situation too.

Even if it's just like their house or like they're not put together or they're like, I wouldn't normally ask anyone to do this, but like could you please just like hold my baby for a couple hours like I just need a couple like I'm not I'd never feel burdened by that I always feel so honored that like wow like we're close enough that you could like ask something like that of me and so I feel like that is a fear too like with people pleasing potentially is like I just like I don't want to make anyone else like inconvenienced I don't want them to think that like I'm needy or like annoying in any way. And so it's like, I feel like the opposite is actually true.

I'm like, no, I'm like so pleased that you like felt like I was a safe person to reach out to in this way or like wanting to give me this responsibility. That's so good. Do you think some of the people pleasing came from a place of feeling insecure? For sure. Yes, 100%. I think for me in particular like that is definitely something I was so insecure for so many years which led me to some bad places because even with the way that I was viewing eating and things like that I struggled with like

just not eating enough and it was it was because I thought I was too fat and I wasn't and it was it was because I thought I was too fat and I wasn't and it was a thought process of like wanting to belong and wanting to have those friendships that were genuine and At some point we realized okay. Well, we were designed for community. That's a good thing We we weren't designed to live on an island by ourselves We're supposed to be in community with other people But when sin entered the world, that was broken. And so now, community can be flawed. People will

let us down. And so we're afraid of that. We're afraid of their rejection. We fear that if we show them, you know, this side of me struggling, or maybe I don't look as pretty as I want to be, then I'm not going to be accepted. Or I have to have designer clothes to have people notice me. And things like that where we can fall into these tendencies of wanting so desperately to be liked by people that that desperation leads us to bad places. And it can be where we feel like, okay, now like I'm so consumed with myself. I'm so consumed with what everybody around me thinks that ultimately all I care about

is myself. I don't even care about you as my friend because I'm thinking what can I get out of you? What can I take from you instead of what can I give to you? And so I think that that is something that I struggled with for so many years just wanting to be liked and growing up in the setting that I was with for so many years, just wanting to be liked. And growing up in the setting that I was in, you know, it didn't feel easy to be liked in that because you were awkward.

You know, you come from a large family, who else does? Like I had a lot of people around me who did, but then I'm wearing skirts when I play sports in the community, it just feels weird, right? There are a lot of things that were just, you're trying to fit in, you're trying to figure out who you are. And I think a lot of that people pleasing,

the tendencies of that were even stronger maybe because I was already awkward and not fitting in. The thing that I feel, first of all, I'm so sorry that you have gone through, you know, struggles with not feeling like you look the way that you want to look and feeling like you need a cut back on food because you want to fit in. That's horrible and I'm so sorry that you've you've experienced that. I guess my question is speak to what that experience was like, speak to how it

started. Was there a certain event that triggered that chain of events in your life? Like what exactly led to you thinking, oh, I need a, I need a cut back on food to fit in so people like me. Yeah. I think as I was in the ages of like 13, 14, 15, I just saw like, okay, I had friends who naturally were like super skinny and I would look at these girls and think okay well I would compare myself to them and I was actually pretty skinny at that point like I was I didn't have I wouldn't gain weight easily but I thought I might and it was that fear of just like I wasn't as skinny as them but I

was still like healthy you know and I think that just the comparison that started to happen in my mind, I didn't think properly about myself. I kept thinking, well, I'm just not pretty enough or I'm not skinny enough. So I would just try to wake up later in the day and try to avoid meals and things like that. And I felt miserable because I was just thinking like, okay, I don't want to eat. Or I would think if I went to somebody else's house that I'd be like, well, what are we

going to eat? Am I going to have something that's going to actually not make me fat? Or is this like, you know, that was my thought process was constantly about food. My entire, every day would just be like, I would be consumed with that thought. And I talked to my mom because she was very open, like even, you know, throughout the years, like TV show and all that, she struggled with bulimia for years, and which is not something I struggled with, but she, when she was, you know, a teen, that was something she really struggled with, like on the cheerleading team. And so I knew that, and I was able to go talk to her

after I don't know how many months of wrestling with this. And when I talked to her, then she was really sweet, and the way she handled it was so helpful, because she did not go from one extreme to the other where she was just telling me, okay, now you need to eat everything in sight. Like she didn't force me to eat things that were unhealthy because like, I mean, we were in Arkansas, there were casseroles, you could easily gain 50 pounds in a meal if you wanted to. And it was something that she just told me. She's like, well, Ginger,

she's like, I really appreciate you telling me that, but she came up with a plan, just text me what you eat every day, and I'd love to be accountable too, and I'll text you what I eat. And it was so sweet because in that time, I was struggling so much, and I was so embarrassed by how I was struggling, and I didn't want to open up to her,

but I knew I could, because she's the sweetest person in the whole world. So when I told her, she was like, yeah, and I want to try to eat healthier. So maybe we can eat healthy together. And she didn't force me to like eat unhealthy stuff, but she was like, I want to make sure you're getting enough protein, enough, you know, fiber, let's like do this. And so it was that most helpful thing for me because then I started to develop a healthy relationship with food. and it was something that I realized

okay I yeah you don't have to like when you struggled with that thank you love she was like she was telling me like even though you struggle with this it doesn't mean that you have to I'm not gonna force you to like eat three cheeseburgers because you don't need to do that but like just eat what's what what you need to eat, and that's enough. And it was helpful for me to process, like, and she kept telling me, like, you're beautiful just the way God made you, and He designed you just how He wanted you to be. So all of those things, and even like exercise, right?

Like, I like to work out, and so that's not a bad thing, but like, what is the driving motivation? Is it to be pleased, like, to have the approval of other people around me? Or is it just to be healthy and to like, eat healthy, work out, all the things that are actually fun and enjoyable about it? But that gave me a healthy perspective on food

and then moving forward, I was like, okay, I want to make sure that I'm eating the right amounts for my body, what is required. And then I started to feel better more energy more like just enjoying life again You know because I wasn't thinking about food and then when I go to somebody's house and maybe they had something I typically wouldn't eat or it was super greasy or unhealthy I'd be like, okay, I'm gonna eat this and it doesn't matter like I'm gonna try not to think about it and some days you can feel icky and it's not always easy.

But then I think just after years of that, I have not struggled with that as I did before. Like I just for years have had so much freedom in that. And I'm really thankful for it. I think a lot of it really does go back to how my mom handled the situation and helped walk me through it because she had been in a similar place.

I love how she didn't get angry at you. I love how she didn't say like, oh my gosh, why are you doing that? No, no, no, don't do that. It's so bad. She's like, hey, let's just hold each other accountable. I'm gonna send you what I eat. You send me what you eat.

That seems so sweet. It was. It was perfect. And I think it'll be different for each person If that's something they struggle with some people may need more in-depth help But it was enough for me to know that like she was she kept telling me she always would tell me anything I was struggling with she's like you're gonna be okay in those words coming from your mom Just me in the world, right?

Cuz like you feel like as a teenager, especially being able to talk to her about those things, it's hard to open up, but then at the same time, she would always make me feel like it wasn't so out of place, like that reaction, she would never react. And that was something that was super comforting, because I knew I wasn't crazy, I wasn't going insane like I was okay we're gonna get through this together and I did. It's so sweet too because I think it might be easy for

people that grew up in much smaller families to think how could you ever have like personal relationships with that many children yeah and the way that your mom was like, you clearly felt safe to approach her about that. Like something that a lot of people would be too afraid, or like, especially if it's someone that you don't know. Like you clearly had a really close relationship with your mom to like go to her with that.

But then also like her response and like, that's really sweet to hear. Yeah. She's amazing. I love her so much. She's like, yeah, she's a role model. Has she gotten to read your book? So I have not sent her a copy because we just, that is the first copy I've seen.

So as soon as it comes out, I was, but I talked to her about it already a lot. Oh, okay. Yeah, we were chatting about it and I was just thanking her for how she helped me. Oh, sweet. So much to like break free from a lot of that people pleasing. That's so sweet. And the book is dedicated to her. I saw that!

That's so sweet. That's so sweet. She really is the sweetest person. I wish you could meet her. To my mom, you will always be my hero and best friend. I love you. And I'm extra emotional in pregnancy so I'm going to be crying through this whole thing. I felt so, I was like, gosh dang it, did I make you cry if I asked you that question?

No, but she is so sweet. Did you show her this? So I haven't yet. I haven't yet. But I'm looking forward to getting her, because I don't have a copy yet. So I'm just gonna give it to her. Is she emotional?

She is, but she's also so, she's emotional, but she's also steady. So she has that deep strength. But such a sweet, sweet woman. That is really sweet. I love how you said that your mom was there for you and said you're going to be okay when you were going through that.

Has that been a role that Jeremy has taken on now? That you're a married woman, you have a third baby on the way? Has that relationship with your mom changed at all? I think things change whenever you are not in the same state. I'm not able, sadly, being far from family, you have to make more of a point to call family members. And since I have so many, I try to keep in contact

with my mom and my sisters as much as I can. And so I will FaceTime them a lot. We were just talking a couple days ago, and my mom is just such a rock and I feel like Jeremy has really taken on just so much of that too, the encouragement, because we're a team and he is just like always helping me walk through those things or times where people pleasing will just it bubbles up and there's so much to deal with and he is a constant reminder just like reminding me of the things that I need to be reminded of you know of who I am in

and just like even in pregnancy right like those things come up where you feel like oh man my body is changing it's gonna be so long before I feel like I'm actually strong again or I feel like you can actually function again and do all the things I wanna do, but he's constantly telling me, no, I love this, pregnancy's so beautiful, and just remember that. Remember the stage you're in to enjoy it

and not to let it slip by, and all of those things that I need to be reminded of. He's so good at that. Her body is literally performing the most incredible miracle in the human experience. And she's like, oh, these jeans don't fit. I'm like, babe, get some perspective here. You're creating a human.

I'm gonna totally buy the jeans that you were telling me about. Because I'm like, I can't find any. I've never tried them personally, but I know that Abercrombie has maternity ones. That's the thing, I'm not shopped on there. But I need jeans, because I'm wearing leggings today because I just don't have any that fit.

See, I had to wear maternity clothes. My belly was so huge. Yeah. It was so big. I know. It happens. I always gain so much weight in pregnancy. Yes, totally. I know. Dresses are not always as flattering in pregnancy either. Yeah. I'm just like, nah. Nah.

How do you call all of your siblings and your parents every week? Like is there, is there a calendar schedule? There's no way. I feel like you'd have to call two to three people a day. Oh my word, it's so true. Every day to be in communication with your family. So I do feel bad about that because it's something that having that many siblings, it makes you feel more guilty, because we live away. A couple of my siblings do now that are married, but that's only recent, like in the past year. And so most of them live near each other,

so they're constantly around everyone. All Denise's and Nephew's, we're at like 35 or six, I don't even remember. 35 grandkids. Yeah, there's so many, and they're just getting started. It's gonna be so. Wow. There's so many. And so, and they're just getting started. It's going to be so much more. Changes by the minute.

It's probably going to be 100 and we're going to have to have name tags. Like, I'm not kidding. Like, I'm not kidding. It's wild. So, with all that, there's literally no way, no way that you could call every single sibling all the time. And even the other day, confession time. Confession time.

I just did some math. Do some math. I'm a nerd, okay? What does it say? If all 19 of you have 19 children each, how many total grandchildren is that? Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. We're not having 19, so I don't know.

350. Just for the fun of it though, if like all 19 kids have 19 kids, yeah, 300 what? What'd you say? 50, 350. 361. Whoa. 361 grand kids. I don't think any of them are gonna have 19. Can you imagine?

But still though. It's possible. No really which sibling is gonna have 19 or do you think if you had a guess if you were to like make an educated guess right now it's very possible. Wait wait. Well okay get this. So one of my brothers, he is a twin. Okay. And he is, he and his wife have two kids under the age of two and they're pregnant with twins. Jed and Katie. Jed and Katie. They're pregnant with twins.

But they have two kids under the age of two and they're pregnant with twins? Yes, and their twins are going to be born before their oldest turns three. So they're going to have four under the age of two. That, oh my gosh. So it's possible, like I said, it's possible. Bless them. Yes. I hope they have help.

They do. I was just talking to somebody the other day that had triplets and they were saying like, bro, if we did not have family by us, we would have died. Yeah. I think if you have twins or triplets, you need to move near family. Yeah.

Or have family move to you. Yeah. 100%. So yeah, it could happen, but the other day, Felicity, have twins or triplets you need to move to your family. Yeah. Or have family move to you. Yeah. 100%. So yeah, it could happen. But the other day, Felicity, this is okay. Wow, they hit the ground running. This is a confession.

This is a confession. So Felicity, she's my six-year-old and she, we were talking about, I was talking about one of my siblings or something and then she's like, wait, you have a sibling with that name? I was like, oh. It just happens. That's her aunt or uncle. It's like, because there's so many. She just knows them.

She's met all of them, hangs out with them, but it's like, there are the younger ones, she will know some of them, but then, like their names. It's hard to keep up with all the names. And since we don't see them all the time, she knows a lot of the nieces and nephews even better maybe than all of the aunts and uncles who can't travel all the time by themselves.

So that's the thing, my siblings, my youngest sibling is 15 now, she just turned 15 yesterday and it's like crazy, you know? But they can't travel by themselves and so like if they're not all out to visit all the time, it's easy to forget. Wait, how did she forget? What do you mean? Like she can't remember like the name Johanna, you know?

And she's like, wait, what? That's like one of your siblings. But it's just because there are so many. Yeah. And it's, that happens. Jeremy, do you know, are you able to recite all the names in order? Oh, easily.

You got it down? 19? No, he does not. That's impressive. But go for impressive. We've done this one. Well, it was a couple of years ago, so maybe you do now. Go. Oh, you want me to go? Go. In order. Uh, in order. Josh, John, Jana. It's actually Jana John. Jana John. Okay. She came out 30 seconds earlier. Yes. Wait, Jill, Jessa, Ginger, Joy. Nope. Ginger.

You're six. I said, Joy. No, there are two more. I was just thinking girls at this point, Joe. And then there's Joe. And then there's, is it, it's not Josiah. Oh, and then it's you. Nope. Oh,, Joe. And then there's Joe and then there's, it's not Josiah. Oh and then it's you. Oh after you. And then it's, oh man, we can edit this. I put you on the spot.

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This is actually fun. No this is good. This is good. This is good. I like this. I like this.

Then it's the twins. No. Jen and Jira. No, you already said. Did I say them already? You already said a name. No. Jed and Jeer. No, it's who you already said. Pretty sure it is. Did I say them already? You already said a name. I didn't say them already. No, Joy.

You're doing great. Joy's next. Oh, Joy. Oh, she's here. The girl. How could you forget Joy? Joy. Joy.

You love Joy. Yeah, Joy's cool. Jed, Jeer. Yes. Okay, now we're going to a quick succession. Yep, you're doing good. Now we're Justin, James. Nope. James, Justin. No, Jason. Jason, James, Justin. Yes.

Um, Johanna. Jackson. Jackson, Johanna, Jenny, Josie. J-Jordyn? Jordyn, J-Orden. J-Orden and then- Jackson. No, Jackson, Johanna.

No, J-Orden's second youngest, so it's Josie, Jordan. Wait, is there a J-Orden, Hannah, Jordan? No, I just call her J-Orden. Jennifer, Jordan, Josie. Yeah, she's second youngest, so it's Josie Jordan. Wait, is there a J.Ordan and a Jordan? So it's Jackson, Joanna, Jennifer, Jordan, Josie. Yeah, she's second youngest. Okay. Jordan, yeah. Round of applause! Woo!

Isn't it? Honestly dude, that's impressive. All right, ready for the grandkids? So now we're going. I can't do that. I can't do the grandkids. Really? There's no way.

Are there any grandkids that you don't know their name? She just said that. Your niece and her nephews? Like you'd be able to rock them off, but if you saw them you'd know. How do you do birthdays? I'm just thinking logistically. Probably yes.

Do you just send birthday texts? Like. I try. So we have a group message, a family group message. Oh, if they're like sitting in. And they will always say. So I think today is Austin's birthday. Oh, and you had a birthday yesterday?

Wait, wait, today's Austin's birthday. And yesterday was Josie's birthday. So yeah, it's great. Should we call Austin? How do you think they'll? Just casually call Austin on the podcast. By the way guys, our coffee is here. It's here?

I'm gonna grab the coffee. Wait and then I have something I really want to talk about because it was in your book and I was like, that's crazy. Thank you to Lumi for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Lumi is full body deodorant It was created by a OB GYN It was created by an OB GYN who realized that there was a need for not just having deodorant for your armpits But deodorant for your entire body so that can go on areas like your private parts areas like your back if you got back sweat

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40% off their starter pack. Use code unplanned for 15% off your first purchase at lumiedeodorant.com. That's code unplanned at L-EDEODORANT.com. Please support our show and show them that we send you. Smell fresher, stay drier, and boost your confidence from head to toe with Lumi. Okay, we are back. So in your book you talked about how

when Jeremy asked you out for the very first time, it was probably like cool moment, but there are cameras present, but then you had to do it several more times, maybe like 10 more times. Yeah. What was that like? Yeah, it was interesting,

but I think it was so normal for me. It was super normal because that's all that I grew up doing. But yeah, I don't know. I never knew that they would have you repeat stuff like that. They would try not to for special things like that. They would have like one shot where it's very easy for you to like just get it done one and done because they do wanna get your genuine reaction.

Yeah. But I think that day there was like, we had to go out on the front porch. So there was like, you had to come down the stairs. Okay, now go back up. Now come back down. Now come out the door, now go back in, because they didn't have enough crews that day, probably.

So it may have been like one crew instead of the typical where they have two. So did you have to tell, did you have to run this by the film crew before you even like asked her to be your girlfriend? Oh yeah, the whole thing was planned. Yeah, way in advance. So you knew, or you didn't know.

Did I know? Oh, I don't remember if she knew. you didn't know I don't remember I would plan and surprise her. Yeah, like I play I surprised her with the obviously the proposal I surprised her with I would show up and surprise her sometimes but It'd have to be coordinated So like I knew that her dad was gonna come pick us up from the airport or pick me up from the airport Then we're gonna go to a coffee shop and I was gonna ask him if I could date her there. And so that's planned.

Now it's not like scripted but it's planned like okay because you have cameras and so they will have some things you have to talk about like if you they'll give you a couple talking points so like he would say whatever he wants but then he has to make sure and usually at that point the producer would step in and say hey like you didn't cover this so can you just chat for two minutes about it and then he'll come whisper in your ear like if let's say this was a dinner or something or we're hanging out and there's film crew and they're filming it you know you'd have the producer come up and go hey make sure you ask Matt about you you know, that, I go, okay. And then, you know, a minute later I said,

so Matt, tell me about this, you know. So it was reality, but then it wasn't. You know how it goes. And then, so then we go to. I'm actually shocked, I'd never really, it makes sense. I've never thought about it from the back end like that. Because otherwise the challenge is, is like people are missing major parts of the story that

those who have been watching forever get. So they understand the background and where Jeremy came from, but sometimes they need you to rehash things so many times for those who weren't there. It's kind of like vlogging on steroids because we're not the best vloggers because everything is so random because we don't plan it. So all of a sudden will like be uploading stuff to our editor and it'll just go from like You know, we're here then cut now we're over there

Like we understand what needs to happen to get there, right? But half the time I'm just like no you guys for reality They're like they're having to like lead you through. Yeah, the moments so that like even little things like if if I was gonna come in like one time I surprised her in Nashville and You walk in the door and then they go, okay, wait, wait, wait, come back Come back. So now the camera house guy has to go in on that side and now you open the door from that side So they he got an angle of me going in this side Then I had to walk out then I have to come in so he gets it from this side and things like that where you're going Like this is reality like I'm genuinely coming

into this room to surprise her. But I just had to do it twice. But then it gets to the point of like, even like social media, like you take a picture, that's reality, but then you go, oh, let's retake it. You know, so it's a weird kind of, yeah. Did that get frustrating for you?

No, moments like that would have been like, when I'm trying to ask her to be my girlfriend or something and there's certain hoops you have to jump through or you're just kind of like, okay. Or you have to talk about something you've talked about so many times as a topic. So like that was after we were married. That's when you felt frustrated. Well, they would just concessively, you have to bring them up to speed on things. So especially in like interviews, you're sitting there for six hours on a couch like this interviewing.

So you're looking at a camera, the producer's next to it. You've got all the accoutrements around and you're sitting there talking. And every time they come, they ask you the same questions just to give a baseline. Because if they have to edit it a certain way. For instance, like when the weddings, all my siblings got married, like one year we had three weddings in a year. And so every time a wedding would happen, we knew what we were going to be asked. Okay, tell us about how you first met.

Take us back to your wedding day. Take us back to your first kiss. And we would always have to re-answer questions that we had just answered a couple months before. So those types of things, we would be like, oh. I feel like you've already talked about that. Okay, we talked about this and everybody's gonna have, they're gonna have it memorized, the answer.

Because we've had to talk about it so many times recently. So things like that, which it's not the end of the world, it was just like, it was just like a little, yeah. It's just parts of reality TV. It was just what you had to do. I feel like for your personal vlogs on YouTube, you guys should put up like a sheet in like your guest bedroom and just put a camera in there and have the

do your own like one of you should be the interviewer. One of you could be the interviewer and the other one's like yeah so today we went to the beach with the kids. That's not a bad idea. Honestly that would be our executive producer. That's so great. He'd be great at that. That's brilliant. Yeah he would be great at that. You guys have the background too. You're like, I know what kind of questions they ask. That's the thing. That's probably why sometimes I won't want to go that route of making everything so perfect on the blog because it was years of that. So in my head, I feel like I could produce a show because I know what I'm going to have

to do if I walk into a room. But sometimes you just check out and you're like, okay, I'm not gonna do that. And then I want to. We recently did a little Q and A on our podcast with these connect cards that Jeremy and Audrey Roloff did for couples. Like this third conversation. Nice. Super fun.

And they're really cool. And one of them was like, what's your dream job? And tell them what your dream job. So it's not like a CEO, it's not like an exec, it's not like. I've always said I told Jeremy I was like if I ever went to like work at a normal job Then I would I would want to be a PA in LA to be a production assistant

So you great at that because I don't know I feel like it just seems so fun So now the PAs don't even do that. They'll hold the reflectors and stuff for the crew, but they get the coffee, they get the food, and they make sure that they have enough C-47s, or whatever they're called. So, just the little clothespins. Hey, TLC, if you're watching this, we found your new PA for all of your reality TV shows.

And honestly, this is great behind the scenes content for you guys too, because she's kind of like an OG TLC star. So. I mean, I don't know what shows I'd work on, but I think I'd have to choose one that, yeah, maybe is not so close to home. Yeah. A little different niche maybe.

Well, I feel like reality TV is going to evolve based off of you know things that we've learned from the the just start of it like you're it seems like your family was kind of the start of reality TV and so obviously Everyone's learned a lot about you know, what can't what can happen what what doesn't happen all that and Hopefully I feel like we're already seeing this, but I'm thinking that reality TV will get better and better for the people on the show, just because unfortunately,

mistakes have happened in the past and we can learn from those. Yeah, I'm hopeful, I think so. I definitely think that the more time that goes on with that and then also, even with social media, right? That's the next thing. It's reality TV basically for a ton of people because they're putting everything on social media. And so I think that the way that people view it or maybe like for us,

like protecting our kids and you all as well, like there are certain things that each family will realize like, okay, maybe we're not going to go that far or maybe we're going to have certain parameters here. And I think that you'll start to see more of that the older that kids get who grow up in it. How do you guys like to protect your kids? I know you guys don't show your children on, or I guess you don't show their faces on social media. Do you have any strong convictions there about why you do what you do when it comes to protecting

your children? I, growing up on TV from the age of 10 until 27, it was something that, it was just my life. And so, looking at that, I think through the hard times, that's when I really started to think like, okay, do I want my kids to have this life? Do I want them to be front and center in everything that we do? And both of us felt like we didn't want that for our kids. We wanted to give them privacy and then if they choose to be in the public eye later, that's all cool. Like we were all for whatever they want to do, but for us not to make that the driving force of what we do. Because I

think that whenever everything's going great, it can seem fine. But then whenever you have challenges and trials and your kids are in the middle of it, it just makes it all harder. And also for the privacy, we wanted to not show their faces. That way they're not recognizable.

And they can have that just protection. And also we don't highlight them a lot in what we talk about. We'll talk about them here and there publicly, but we aren't like, we don't talk about every little thing that they're doing. And I think some of that is just because we want to make sure that they're able to just have their childhood. However, you know, just live it out, live out their childhood, enjoy it and not, we're not using that as an opportunity for us to gain anything from.

And it was just something that we were convicted of. And other people who do things differently, I see why they do it and I don't have a problem with that. It's just us personally, I think especially the way that growing up in that setting, that's why I'm more protective of my kids now. And I don't have any like, it's not like I have major regrets or, oh, I wish I didn't have this exposure, but I think I just see the positives and the negatives and I just

feel more protective of my kids. 100%. You talked in your book about paparazzi hunting you down while you're at the grocery store and you had an awkward moment. Can you tell us a little bit more of the inside scoop of what exactly happened and how you were feeling when you look in the news you're like oh paparazzi is taking pictures of me while I'm at the freaking grocery store. Like what happened? Yeah there's a season where it was a little out of hand

and I found myself trying to go to the post office and being followed and just going back home because I was like, I'm not gonna go. And I think there was a season where it was just very stressful and a lot of public family stuff was happening and so we're easy targets because we did not live in a gated community and they could just literally see me open my door get my mail and take pictures and they get money you can

yeah you paparazzi can just come to your house yeah like do a stakeout literally just have the camera ready to go they see your door open it'll take a picture of you that's legal it is that's time I even drove to the police station because I think after so many months of it, it started to wear on me. Honestly, I felt like I just wanted to keep all my windows closed. Yeah. And not go out because it was so stressful and it was around a lot of the time where it was not, it wasn't just like they, they did want pictures of me, but it was more so because they wanted to write articles about other family stuff that was happening. Yeah. And it all, all the pictures were of me because it was easy to get.

And the family lives in Arkansas, so you have to fly people in, right? So I got it. But there was one time I was driving and I drove for like 15 minutes trying to lose them safely. I had a way of doing it. I would go through like all of these neighborhoods and I'd backtrack and if the car followed me then I knew I was being followed and I would memorize the cars on our street. There was like 30 cars you know over neighbors. Had them all memorized. If there was a weird one I'd write it down on my notes because I knew that they

were probably sitting there waiting to get pictures or waiting to follow me and some of them would not blur our kids' faces for a while and we had to like, as soon as it was posted, I would get on them and I would like message, you need to take that down immediately or blur their face. So things like that, right? So it was just a struggle, but this one time I even went to the police station

and asked them if they, I was like, hey, I'm being followed. Can you please take care of this? They're like, why are you being followed? I was like, hey, I'm being followed. Can you please take care of this? They're like, why are you being followed? I was like, well, it's paparazzi. And they said, we can't do anything. Are you kidding me? The police can't do anything about me. They said, we can't do anything.

They said, you can stay here as long as you'd like. But that was at some point where every time I went out, it started getting shaky. Cause I couldn't even, I felt so anxious. Even though I knew they were just gonna take a picture, it's in your head, right? Like I have my kids. And you're in LA.

You want to think you're safe, but then you also realize, well, there could be some crazy people out there. You don't know who's who. So I'm being followed by dark tinted car, and I know, okay, this one I knew was paparazzi because he had got pictures of me before, and I knew his car.

I had it on my list. So, like, you know, it just, those types of things come up. Well, there was a funny story. I was, I say it's funny now, but like that, this is what happened. I went to the grocery store, it was on Felicity's birthday. I was getting her party supplies, so I had like tons of cases of drinks, and on the very front

I had two cases of water or whatever. When they did the checkout thing, they took the case of water off and barely put it on the front, on the very bottom, and so it was hanging off the front of the cart. Well, I go walk out of the store and I hit a divot in the parking lot and the entire cart goes up in the air and starts to flip. Well, I had on top of the cart, like where the kids typically would sit in the child seat, there was like another case of water and bags of ice.

So I am, as soon as this goes up, the cart goes up, I'm literally putting my entire body on top of the cart, trying to hold it down. I'm trying to pull the cart down. It was so funny. It was one of, like, I was like, this is my most embarrassing moment. As it was happening, I was thinking,

this is just so mortifying, because I'm losing my entire cart load of all the groceries. Everything's about to flip totally over. So, in that moment, I was able to recover the cart, probably because I was working out a lot at that time, right? I was actually strong enough. I almost lost it.

I literally almost flipped the entire cart. So, get it recovered, and I'm looking around like, did anybody see me? Did anybody see me? Oh, shoot. this is great. There were people who saw. But they were just kind of like, okay, that's weird going about their business.

And then, put everything in the car, got home, it was fine. And it was like a day or two later, there was an article and it popped up and it was like, I can't even remember the headline now, like off the top of my head, but basically like Ginger almost takes, Ginger takes a spill or her cart takes a spill, whatever. It was really funny and it had all the progression of photos,

me walking out of the store, had like a Mickey mask on, you know, so I looked like a clown already and I'm like walking out and I'm like happy or whatever And then you see my face And I'm standing on my dip toes like trying to hold the cart and laying my entire body on there trying to like pull the thing back down and We got to throw that on the screens, right? That moment. That moment.

That has the full progression of all the photos. I sat there and typically I feel like I'm about to cry when I see photos because I'm like, leave me alone. But that time, I laughed out loud for like days. I would be sitting there doing something, washing dishes, and I would start laughing out loud because I was like, it was was like, it felt like such an embarrassing moment when you're in that setting, like I'm such an idiot, I should've checked the front of the cart.

But I actually reposted it, because I thought it was so funny. I reposted just the photo and just said, this happened. You know? Because it was one of those moments where I just thought, okay, everybody will have something like this happen where you're just so embarrassed. And I said, just when I thought no one was looking, you just have that sigh of relief,

at least no one else was here with me, none of my friends or anything. And then it's everywhere. So that one I got a good laugh out of and it really was so funny. I looked it up, I'll be honest with you, after reading that I was like, I gotta find this picture. It was funny. Yeah, it was so good. I think people have since reposted it and one of them was like, one article was like,

Ginger wear short shorts to the grocery store. Oh my gosh. I was like, what? Those are all the headlines. Why? I guess it's because of the culture you were raised in. Yeah, anything other than a dress or a skirt. I was like, Matt, she's wearing Nike dress with shorts like everybody else.

Yeah. More clothes than a lot of people. For sure. More than half an inch above the knee. Yeah. Totally. How could you? That's crazy. That's too frustrating.

Yeah, that's seriously all the headlines. And so that was part of the frustration too is like, I'm not trying to like rub anything in anyone's face either that's still like in that place. Like, I don't, that's, but the headlines, half of them are like Ginger, you know, Bashes or Family or whatever. I'm like, no, I'm literally just living my life. You're like, I dedicated my book to my mom. I love my family. Yes, for sure. And that's the difference, right? So that was an experience. But that does also make me think about in your book when you're talking about

swimming with skirts on, which I'm like, yeah, no wonder you couldn't swim. I don't think many people can swim. And were they denim skirts, too? It was not. It was like a modest swimwear. So it had like built-in almost like leggings like this, but then it had a dress part that was like swim material. But it came down like below the knees.

Oh, it was made for swimming. Yeah. Wow. Didn't they call it modest swimmingwear? Modest swimwear. But I don't remember. Is that a brand? No.

Can't remember the brand name now. She's like, I think our neighbor showed them. Yeah. Wait, actually? It was interesting. No, no, no, no. Oh, you could buy this on the market? Yeah, it was just an interesting thing

and they had like, it was just not easy swimming. Let's just say that. So I didn't learn how to swim and then even if I did get in the water, there was one time I was so embarrassed. You know, I was like, I'm just not easy swimming. Let's just say that. So I didn't learn how to swim and then even if I did get in the water, there was one time I was so embarrassed. You know, I was like, I just am not gonna do this. So I just avoid it, like avoid water like the plague until we lived in California where you can't avoid water.

Yeah, now you're learning. So I am. We have a pool. We have a fence around it because our kids are just, well, Felicity's just learning to swim like this summer. She just started swim lessons and I learned to swim but I'm not like a very confident swimmer yet. So I'm getting there.

I'm not a really good swimmer actually either. Jeremy did you teach Ginger to swim at all? Is that something that you guys? No, I mean we would go swim together. I try to teach the doggy paddle, but she actually has a I couldn't get it. A really good friend who grew up in Hawaii. Yeah, my friend Rebecca. She's from Hawaii. She's amazing. She's taught all of her kids, a lot of friends to swim.

So she's like, she was so sweet. I was actually like very pregnant with Evy, our second, and she was like, come over because I was just telling her how embarrassed I was I couldn't swim. And also, I wanted for safety to be able to help my kids if they ever were in a bad situation. I don't want to go get help. I want to know how to swim. So I knew I needed to learn. And she was like, I'm gonna teach you. So the only problem was, wouldn't recommend trying

to learn how to swim when you're eight months pregnant. Not ideal. You already are having trouble catching your breath. But she was so sweet. I actually was able to get a lot of the basics and then after I had Evie, I went back and she really helped me and then it clicked. So I know how to swim now.

Like in theory, I can do it. I can jump into the deep end of the pool and I can get to the side. I can't swim very far. I can swim across the pool maybe if I push off. I'm not gonna die at this point. That's it. Survival. I can survive in a pool. That's a power move that you're like, you know what, I'm an adult, I can't swim, but I'm gonna learn how to swim. And you just did it anyway. I looked horrible. She sent, okay, so she recorded videos so I could remember, like for the next time I come back. Let's put those videos up. Let's put those videos up.

Those are not coming out, ever. I mean, I was embarrassed to show Jeremy, but she's like, let's show him your progress. And then I watched the video and was like, no. Like, talk about being a people pleaser. I was not about to send him the video because it looked so bad. That's how you know you're a people pleaser.

You're afraid of showing your husband. I know, there have been so many times where I'm like, no. She gets embarrassed by stuff and I'm like, babe, it's me. It's just us. Yeah. He always tells me that. So that's how bad a people ple. I know, there have been so many times where I'm like, no, I look so bad. She gets embarrassed by stuff and I'm like, babe, it's me. It's just us. He always tells me that. So that's how bad a people pleaser I was though. That's sweet though.

It was funny cause Abby's not a people pleaser at all. Like she's so comfortable. Don't say that. No, but it's a good thing. Like you're confident, you're comfortable in yourself. There are still things I can relate to. You're not insecure. And so like, which is amazing.

Like I love that for you so much, but we were talking about're not insecure and so like, which is amazing, like I love that for you so much, but we were talking about the book and I was like, yeah, I feel like this book could be a lot more helpful for me than you because like, I wrote Matt next to so many parts in here and I was like, read this. Actually, a part that I was like, I knew that you would think was really cool because I'm always trying to push Matt to be more social was the Superagers you were talking about. is a fun fact share that fact because that is really cool Thank you to rocket money for sponsoring this portion of today's episode Do you have subscriptions that you cannot get rid of for the life of you? I know I've been there

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of the year like Wanting to save in areas that I don't care about so I can spend more in our areas that I actually do care about And rocket money really is a great tool to help you get there Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals fast with rocket money go to rocket money comm slash unplanned today That's rocket money comm slash unplanned rocket.com slash unplanned. Rocketmoney.com slash unplanned. There are people that were studied that are super agers because they were trying to figure out what makes them age so well and how do they live so long. And I'm trying to remember all the specifics of that story. But it is the community that drives them

and that's how they're actually, because they're so engrossed is the community that like drives them and that's how they that's how they're actually Because they're so engrossed in the community around them that actually gives them what they need to live longer and to live the happiest Most fulfilled life that they possibly can and it's a sweet thing because sometimes we think like okay We're fine on our own and there will be seasons where I don't know there are seasons where I feel like oh I'm such an extrovert and then, I have to be around people, but then I also feel like there are introverted sides of me too, where I could just be so content to just like, want to isolate myself, but part of that is, because of the people pleasing,

I feel like, well, it's more comfortable. It's exhausting. Yes, because you're thinking, what does this person think about me? How am I appearing before them? All these things. And then when you get in that thought process, it's like, well, I'll just isolate myself and stay home.

Or I just won't connect with somebody. I won't go to dinner with them because I just feel like a mess today. Or you get afraid to go to a social event. You're like, what is everyone gonna think about me? What if I do something weird? What if I like embarrass myself? Yes.

And it's just like, it's weird. Yeah, but that comes up. That's the first thing that we think about as people pleasers. I think that when we realize that's unhealthy and it's also selfish and it's manipulative to think like, okay, I'm going to try to figure out how I can make everybody else think I'm great in this situation. Then you're going into every situation not caring for that person, not loving them like you should because all you're doing is trying to get something out of them. Yeah. So it's it's just yeah.

That was one of the biggest revelations when I was reading this book and then working through it with her as she was writing it was like one of the things I think is gonna help people the most is understanding what she just said about it being manipulative because you think I'm a people pleaser, so I must be really focused on caring about everyone else. No, actually the caring that you're doing is to manipulate them to respond to you how you want them to respond, which is manipulation. You're trying to manipulate people

so that you're comfortable. It might be a survival tactic, or it might just be something like I wanna be loved, so I'm gonna manipulate this relationship with you. Like a subconscious thing. Yeah, so, but when you realize, wait, that's not actually a way to love people.

By trying to manipulate them and move them on this chessboard to make me happy, then you realize, wow, I'm actually being really selfish. And for me, that was like mind blowing, the way it's articulated in the book, and I think will be so helpful for people because to see it in the phrase the framework of manipulation it's like oh I'm actually using people as a people pleaser instead of genuinely caring for them. Also on that same page it says like it's one of the top things researchers find when they're

looking at the similarities of superagers. Like you're talking about how it's not their diets, not their histories, their finances, their medical care, it's their connection to other people. On that same page, I put a note in all caps says, Broms, because where we went to college, we went on so many dates to Broms. I love that.

Wait, wait. It's the best. Do you guys have Broms in Arkansas? We do, yeah. He is addicted to Brms. I will eat Brahms every single day. Well and also that's when you were talking about the cinnamon twist which that was a story I had to tell Matt too. Bro that's so funny. It's so sweet. It's so precious that couple. They probably had to buy a lot of packs of cinnamon twists. For anybody that is confused about why we're talking about cinnamon twists in

the book, which you should all read, the book is amazing and it comes out. It'll actually be out by the time you guys are watching this episode by the way so go check it out people pleaser. It's amazing but the cinnamon twist story is because wait should I tell this or should you tell it because it's like literally your story. Either way. Okay whatever I'll just yeah but basically they used to play broom ball with all these different homeschool families and because Ginger was one of 19 children her family at the time couldn't afford to get them fast food like that That was just like money was tight This was before the tv show 19 kids and counting and so one time this other family bought

All of like ginger and all of her siblings cinnamon twist from taco bell and they thought that was like so bougie Yeah, and part of it was like we didn't look like everyone else there, because they may have been homeschool families, but they were not like us. They're more mainstream or whatever. And then there were also people from the community who were not even homeschoolers.

There's just like a hodgepodge of broom ball players. And it's like, yeah, and it was crazy. So, but we looked, we did not look like everyone else either. You know, we didn't blend in as well. And so there was a certain side of feeling insecure about that. How do we fit in? I always felt so awkward and uncomfortable in those settings, and then we can't afford anything.

So, that's another embarrassment on top of it. So, you're sitting there and this couple, they would always ask us, what are you interested in? What are you up you know, what are you like, I don't know, up to these days? And they would ask us questions and really try to like get to know us as kids. And it was sweet because, you know,

they weren't gaining anything from that. And like we were awkward and dressed different than everyone else. And I think that that was something that stood out to me. They really cared and they wanted us to like feel included in a part of like the group even though you know we weren't the same as everybody else and that really really meant a lot. Yeah. Did you or any of your siblings ever push back on the dress codes just from feeling awkward or was that something that you didn't really feel like empowered to do

or appropriate? Yeah I think that because of the culture and what we were taught, I think because of Bill Gothard's teachings, we thought that that was the best way to honor God and that's really what we were kind of taught. I thought those convictions were my convictions too because I thought that's what the Bible wanted me to do, is to wear skirts skirts only, that come below the knee, to not wear sleeveless shirts, things like that, right? And to follow all these rules is how I'm pleasing to God. So I didn't, like, I was also more of a people pleaser

in that, even in that time, so I wasn't, I was just trying to stay on everyone's good side and be, you know, just be be pleasantly agreeable to everything. And I think that there might have been some of the siblings who pushed against it. We wouldn't really talk about that if there was publicly, so I don't know. But for me, I just remember one time

where it was that swimsuit that I was gonna have to wear. And all these people were going to the lake or whatever. My family was there visiting some friends out of state and I just remember like saying I'm not gonna wear that. I'm too embarrassed. And I just did not go in the water of course and I didn't know how to swim anyways so I was also embarrassed about that.

But I just remember not going in the water at all that day because I was like too embarrassed about my swimsuit. So. Because it was like the legging skirt situation. Yeah the one that goes goes all the way down, you know, and then it's like the dress thing. And it was, yeah, and those friends were not just like us either. So, you know, they were probably wearing shorts and a t-shirt or something and they had water with us, but I just was like, I just, I was like, I'm not doing this. And I felt so bad for having, for feeling like I didn't want to wear that, you know.

Was there ever a time in your childhood where you disobeyed your parents? I mean, I disobeyed them, but not like rebellion type things. Like I can't think of, I wasn't a rebellious child. So I wasn't going to push the boundaries. Like I said, I just want to keep everybody happy. And I think that they probably saw me as like one of the most compliant kids and probably would have never expected me of all the kids to like, to change anything. Because if I saw that something was in the Bible, I was like, well, I want to obey God.

So I'm going to do that. But then once I saw like, okay, these teachings are not accurate. It's actually not what the Bible says. Then I knew before God I wasn't sitting. I was doing what was right and I'm honoring God. So at some point I'm gonna have to step out and just live that out. Even if people don't agree with me or they think now Ginger's kind of crazy, you know, for living by what I actually see as true. I know obviously you made this decision as an adult and you know, you had moved out, you were married, you know, just like being a mom. But when it came to wearing shorts or not, you know, no longer always wearing skirts, do you think your parents perceived that as being disobedient and adulthood? I think that it was interesting, like we talked to them about a couple of these issues, right?

Because, especially being in the public eye, I think there's more pressure. Those articles are crazy. Yeah, and the things that people say are just not accurate. And as to why I do things that I do. It's not to spite anyone. I don't have ill will against, even how we were raised in the things that we did. Yeah, there's some things that are harder to work through

long term because of it, but I'm not sitting over here like, oh man, now I hate that I was raised this way because I see how a lot of parents got into that. You know, I see how they had these convictions because they thought it was the Bible. And they got wrapped up in a teacher that was teaching them things that they thought were going to save their kids. And so, I get it. It's well-meaning and it seems so good on the outside. So like, all of these outward things is they I started to see that they were not actually based in the Bible at all But they were just a man's

opinion then that started to Change the way I viewed it and then it took me quite a few years to get to the place where I felt like okay Now I'm so strong in what I believe that it's easier for me to talk about it because I wouldn't even talk about it like I might have been wearing pants, but it was easier for me to talk about it because I wouldn't even talk about it like I might have been wearing pants but it was harder for me to like voice it because I was just afraid of like family and friends still thinking I'm crazy because I left those teachings and so yeah it wasn't the easiest thing for me to do to like step outside of all those

teachings and like live it out because I knew that I go from like being the easy compliant kid to being a difficult child in some people's eyes. So yeah, that was a challenge. There's so many layers to that decision, but I applaud you for stepping out. And like you can tell that it wasn't just like a reactive thing. Like so much thought and years of mentorship and seeking counsel went into you coming to like, okay, now this is something I wanna share about because I know that there's other people out there

like me in the same situation. Very similar to your first book. Something that stood out to me a lot about your book too is that you said growing up you never saw your parents disagree or really very much disagreement at all in the house and I want to ask you both how you feel about like you know disagreements or you may have in your marriage and when it comes like as it pertains to your children. Goodness, we don't want to I mean whenever we have a disagreement we want to be respectful

of one another and so there's a sense of I want our children to be able to see us disagree and respect one another in that conversation. So I don't want to put on right for our kids like this. Everything's fine all the time. Because that's not real life. So I want them to be able to see us work through things. I think I need to do a better job at how I vocalize disagreement to ginger at times. I'm just thinking even like this past week of times where I just vocalize something that without being in a considerate way

or or considering your vantage point and knowing like our girls are listening to that. Yeah. And so we never fight and I don't think I mean there's, I don't see a scenario where we would be fighting each other. I don't mean physical, but I mean even verbally. A verbal fight, yeah. But disagreements come up. And so how do we handle those disagreements? Yeah, not being sharp or saying it with a certain tone. Oh, you should know that already or whatever.

Just making an offhanded remark. And it's easy to be, it's easy to be derogatory when you disagree with someone if they're not seeing it from your vantage point. So I want our little girls to grow up seeing us treat each other with respect when we agree and when we disagree and having this consistency. So okay, mom and dad might not agree on this, but they're gonna treat each other with respect, they're gonna come to an agreement.

And that's the important thing, that's the thing we're trying to teach Felicity right now is we are one. So our opinion is one when it comes to the, so if she asks me something and I say, no sweetie, not right now, she's not allowed to turn around and go ask mom, who doesn't know what I said,

she gives the other answer, then she says, well, mom said yes. It's like, no, no, no, no, we are one. So don't pit us against each other. Yeah, that's a huge thing now that we've been working through. We're trying to work through that. But, and every, you know, kids are smart. I feel like our two year old is already doing that.

No, he already, our two year old is an expert negotiator. So he knows every time that if he comes to me and asks me if he can have marshmallows. He'll even say a little one. He loves sweets. He says a little one. Just like me. I love sugar. He's the same way. So he loves marshmallows, chocolate chips, cookies.

Those are the things that he can reach in our pantry because of the ingredients. So then all of a sudden they're his favorite thing in the world because he can reach. Totally. Yeah. But one of the aspects I think, and this is something maybe from sort of the culture Ginger came from, but even maybe, I mean I think it happens a lot in the church,

is wanting to be rosy and perfect and everything, especially in front of the kids. Everything's perfect and you realize that's not real life. And we're not celebrating brokenness. So when you say like, oh let's just be raw, I think some people go to the other extreme, it's like, let me just celebrate how broken I am. Like, no, brokenness is, we don't wanna be broken,

we wanna be whole. So I don't wanna be in a dysfunctional relationship where we're constantly disagreeing in each other's throats. That's nothing to celebrate. But nor is it healthy to say everything's great, we never disagree, look we're perfect. So how do we in a very real way as people who are broken by sin and have a beautiful Redeemer in

Christ say hey we can work through differences with respect, with love for one another and some disagreements are larger scale than others. Some are where we're gonna eat or are we gonna let the kids have that sweets? Others are are we gonna move across the country or you know bigger decisions? But showing them no, no, I'm not afraid of our kids seeing us disagree and teaching them how to resolve conflict Yeah through that but at the same time there are also times where you need to step away and talk as a couple And not talk in front of them So they see there's a stability and there's not like they're not like oh, why are mom and dad talking about this? You know, like yeah

Well, there are times where we will slip away and like if something's really bothering one of us We we are gonna talk it out and we're not like hashing out all of the issues in front of them or big major things like decisions about Every little thing in front of them because there is a time where you need to do that. But on just the basic day in and day out stuff or if I'm frustrated and I say something that's just not kind of be like, I'm sorry, babe, I shouldn't have said that, you know, and like the kids are there and that way they can hear us apologize even if we said something that was harsh because it's like you aren't perfect and you want to see that when mom and dad sit against

each other we're gonna apologize and that's what we want them to be able to do. I go to Felicity just two nights ago and I was frustrated with her or something she did and I didn't respond the best way so I had to go to her and say Felicity will you please forgive me daddy got frustrated I don't want to speak to you like that. Will you forgive me? And for her to sit there and go, yeah, I forgive you. I think that's really powerful,

like as the parent to say that. I don't even know how I would have responded as a kid if that was like a common culture in our household. But I imagine it would feel like really, really safe. And I think the fear as a parent is that like apologizing could make you look weak. But I feel like the opposite would happen. Yeah, but then the kid is if you're never apologizing, then the kid is the only one who screws up. Right? Because it's always you correcting them. You're always

correcting them. So they grow up just going, well, I'm just constantly screwing up and they never do. Yeah. Well, when they see it reciprocatedated and there are even times where I have to explain to Felicity that what she does was wrong and how daddy responded was wrong. Like explaining to her, like you're not off. We're both done. Like you need to obey dad but will you please forgive me for how it responded to what you did. So it's like it's not just a one-way street here. And I think as a parent, there's two ways you can teach your kids. You can either, metaphorically speaking, crack the whip, use fear to get them to do, you know, to train them up, to try to get them to do, you know, the right thing. Or you can, you know, kindly correct them when they do something wrong and use positive reinforcement by encouraging them when they do something right and I feel like the latter is so much better because and

and on the first you know flip side of that if you're using fear to motivate your kids to do the right thing they're probably gonna have a lot of like mental health issues they're probably gonna be like constantly worrying about oh my gosh my dude oh my gosh like oh my goodness but if they know that they are loved by their by their dad they know that they're loved by their dad, if they know that they're loved by their mom, and- And they just want to see them succeed. Yeah, and they just get excited about doing the right thing.

You know, both can be effective in getting your kid to do the right thing, but I think using the positive reinforcement is so much better for their mental health, and they're gonna grow up to be better human beings. Yeah, and I think there's a balance, right? Because let's think of the scenario of like running in the street.

Well, there's a healthy fear of carbs. So you should have a healthy fear of don't do that. There are times where I will yell out, stop. I had to do that just a couple days ago. One of my kids at Jared's work, they get so comfortable. And she was with grandma and then she saw me across the street and wanted to run. And I was like, stop.

And she didn't hear me the first time. So I'm yelling and I'm like, here, all these people are out watching me, but who cares? No, mom bear. You're about to go in the street. And so like they need to be warned of the dangers that are around. But you can easily fall into this pattern of just constantly being negative. Yes. You know, it's like, man, all day I'm telling her, don't do this, don't do this,

don't do this. And so it's the other side of going, hey, don't run in the street, come on over here and let's have fun over here. Or there's a positive alternative. But as a people pleaser, doesn't it feel weird to yell? Yes. Because I've been in the same place. I was a little embarrassed when I yelled the other day, but I was like, also I would be more embarrassed and I would feel horrible if my kid got hit by a car. Oh, I know.

So it's like you have to. I feel the exact same way because I've been learning as a I think part of me like learning to not be a people pleaser and like resonating with so much what you said in your book is being a father you have to you have, for your own child's good, learn to yell sometimes. I've had situations too, where my son is running into, about to get in the street, and I have to yell. And I don't wanna sound mean or scary, but I kinda have to make sure that yell is powerful.

Because he knows that I never do that. Yes. And so when I go, no, and he hears me, he stops right there and he doesn't go in the street. Yeah. And he's safe. Yeah. But I never use that. That's the only time I would use that. I never had heard him say something like that before. I was like, yeah, but you have to.

Somebody's like, thank you for your life. Because I love him. Yes. But yeah, so that's it. When it gets to the solution of people pleasing, and what Ginger writes about too, is as a people pleaser who's motivated by selfishness and manipulation, you're actually not loving the person because you're not going to tell them what they need to know. So think of the bully scenario. Here's a bully mistreating kids on the playground.

That's not actually fulfilling for the bully. Like that's not actually. Or even your own kid. Like you know, like will you stand up for your own kid? There was a time we were at the playground, you probably remember this, it just came to mind. But there was a kid who was just there hanging out, I think his maybe grandparent was far away,

like sitting in this building and not looking at him. He was a little guy and he was just like angry and like just being, he was just like in a mood and you could tell like something was a little off. So Jeremy just started like positively trying to reinforce any little thing that he would do good. He was kind of like our kids were there, right? And he was being super rough and like, but just angry. Like he was just angry. So Jeremy was like, okay, let's play this game. Trying to stand up, because our kids were, they were gonna get hurt.

It was a very tall playground. It was like three feet in the air, I mean three stories, and I was like, somebody's gonna get hurt. But Jeremy was able to defuse the situation and stand up and talk to him, like, hey, let's not. This is getting a little rough, and no one was there to stop him.

But then he just started talking to the kid and it was helpful to fuse the situation. But in those settings, it can be so uncomfortable because it's like, you don't know what to do, but would you rather be quiet and not protect your own child? Or just so this kid can do what he's doing? Or are you gonna stand up and talk? Like, there's a point where we just will be so consumed with other people think

about us that we are not willing to speak up and say, no, that's not okay. Like, we got to stop this. And that's actually loving them the best. Yeah, it is. Like, so saying something to someone that makes them upset or makes them angry at you might actually be the most loving thing for them. And the selfish people pleaser says, I'd rather not say it to keep them happy with me. The loving people pleaser who says, I'm actually going to please people

for the right motivation says, I know you're not going to want to hear this, like your son running in the street, but I'm going to say it because I actually do love you. And so that's actually true people pleasing because you're pleasing that person in a way that's genuine, real that they actually need rather than doing it for your selfish motivation. This podcast is sponsored by Orgain. Orgain believes real nutrition has the power to make a real difference in people's lives. If you're someone like me that's trying to get as much protein as possible in your day, that's like my major goal. I shoot for about 120 grams a day. Never sure if I exactly hit it, but

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And that's exactly what Oregon is. So remember, there are no quick fixes when it comes to your health. If you want more protein, give Oregon Organics plant protein powder a try. Head to Oregon.com slash unplanned and use code unplanned for 30% off your order. That's the best offer you'll find, but you'll have to use use code unplanned for 30% off your order. That's the best offer you'll find But you'll have to use my code unplanned for 30% off one last time for 30% off head to Oregon comm slash unplanned use our code unplanned Something that you also talked about to like like true people-pleasing and like sometimes you're telling someone something that they might not initially

Want to hear or it's tough to hear like a correction or, I noticed this unhealthy behavior pattern in your life is about having truly good community and you kind of spoke up a little bit against the culture around, what were the quotes you put in there? Like, cut them out of your life, you're doing great girl. Kind of talk about the quotes.

Just the positive talk. I think that we're in a world where we've gone from an extreme of like, okay, we can just say whatever we want and cut people down to the full positive talk. To where it's like, you can go to every side of like, you're the best, you're okay, you're always doing well. Well sometimes I'm not doing well. Yeah, you can do this on your own, you got this.

And I think that that can also be damaging because then we can see like, oh, I don't need anybody. I can do this by myself, I don't need community. And I've got it all together. Well sometimes I don't have it all together. And sometimes I need somebody to say, hey, I think you know, Ginge, you're being a little rough, you're being a little harsh.

And I need to be able to receive that criticism and that critique because it's actually what is the most loving thing to tell me in that moment. And if you did that every single day, yeah, I'd be beat down. That's not always, that's not healthy either. But being able to be in a relationship where you can freely talk and there have been some times where, you know, I've gotten so frustrated with one of the kids and Jeremy's like, hey babe, can you step away for a minute? And that whole switch off thing, right?

I need to hear that in the moment because I've been in this setting, and this kid's frustrated me for the past hour and it's just come to a head and I'm like, will you just stop? And he's like, hey, let's take a minute, take a breath. I can take over now. And like, just to like talk to me,

and sometimes, you know, it can feel like, okay, when somebody has a critique of me, or when they say something, then it's rejection. And I'm rejected by you now. Oh, I'm so embarrassed, because I reacted that way. Well, yeah, I should take responsibility for that action, but I should also be thankful that they said something because it's not loving for you

to just let me be like that, you know? And I think that that's something that we all deal with, and especially in relationships, like even with other friends, you know? I want them to be able to come to me if there's something that they see or an issue or even a concern they might have, you know, to be able to talk about it if there's something that they see or an issue or even a concern they might have, you know, to be able to talk about it genuinely and me not to be defensive.

Because I think that's our first thing as people pleasers is like, well, I wasn't doing that or this was my motive, like just hear them out and then you can talk about it and without being reactionary, like your, your identity doesn't depend on that situation. Just disconnect yourself from it, listen, hear them out. And I think that's the way that you can build genuine friendship is when you're able to confront other people about things. A couple years ago there was a song that came out and it was all about like, I can buy myself flowers,

I can dance by myself, I don't need you. Yeah, yeah. And that is often the response to people pleasing of like, well, I'm sick and tired of being enslaved to everyone's opinion of me and me cowering to it. So let me go to the other side and go, I don't need anybody. Yeah. It's like, no, no, no, you do need people, but that's not the answer.

It's a fixed dream. That's not the answer. Yeah. What if you just have balance in your life, right? Like I think that's not the answer. That's not the answer. Yeah. What if you just have balance in your life, right? Like I think that's the key because I think, you know, maybe it's more so our parents generation but obviously you have experienced this too, but I feel like maybe like our parents generation was don't talk about your mental health, don't talk about your feelings, just like

put your head down, work, whatever. Yeah, you don't matter. It's just be selfless, human should, just don't make it about you. But now I think to correct that we're seeing in our culture, you're powerful, you're amazing, you're a queen, you're a king, whatever, which is really, I think that can be helpful, maybe for someone who's deeply insecure, to recognize like hey you actually have value like yeah you

you were important as a person yeah creating them as you are. But it's like I think the whole point is just finding that middle ground of like hey you're valuable and so you don't. You're not perfect. But yeah yeah you're valuable but you're not perfect and so like maybe if you have people in your life that are telling you not to do something or to do something or to do something, you should always evaluate like, okay, are these people, is this the right group speaking into my life?

Do they care about what's best for me? Do they have selfish ambitions that maybe they're trying to use me for something? Maybe I need to change the friends I'm around because you're really a, as people we represent our five closest friends. You just get all those tendencies and behaviors from the people that you surround yourself with.

So I think it's really important to evaluate when someone encourages you or discourages you. Know like, hey, are they speaking truth in my life? Yeah, and I think that along those lines too, we realize like, okay, if we are getting our self-worth from what people are saying about us positively, the next second, they can be saying a criticism. And like even the critics online, we all see it.

Everyone sees it on social media, right? Like it doesn't matter what kind of following you have. You can have somebody who likes the photo, somebody who says, that's stupid, why would you do that? And if you're just allowing that to be your self-worth, like what somebody says about you, then that's wrong as well. Because if they quickly build you up,

they can tear you down the next second. So don't let your identity be wrapped up in what people are saying either. I think that's where, for me, it's been helpful to see, like, okay, the answer to people pleasing is people pleasing, which is just so crazy, but you're doing it not out of a negative desperation. You set that aside, you stop thinking,

what can I get out of you? Or are you popular or famous? That's why I wanna be your friend. Well, that's gonna suck. That's gonna lead you to bad places. So then you start asking, how can I serve you? How can I look into this relationship? And not seeking to get anything out of it,

because it's so easy, naturally, we think like, what can I get from you? And I think I went into so many relationships like that, and I left disappointed, because I was like, this stinks. Like, I can never get satisfied in this relationship, because I'm just like, afraid of what you think of me, trying to figure out what I can get, this stinks. I can never get satisfied in this relationship because I'm just afraid of what you think of me, trying to figure out what I can get out of you, and that's just not a good way to live.

It's crazy. Something I've been talking with a group of buddies that I attend a men's book club with is how we let fear control so much of our lives as humans, because we're fear- driven. It's like, afraid this is going to happen. I'm afraid this other thing might happen. And it's wild because I think fear has played a huge part of why I've people pleased. I'm still working on it. I act like, oh yeah, and I'm not people pleased anymore. But I'm a work in progress I'm not a perfect person but

it's incredible how how like you can want something so bad like you want to make everyone happy or you you genuinely like maybe it's coming from a good place right like I know you said obviously you've said how people-pleasing can be selfish but I would also argue there's ways where people people-pleasing can really truly come also from a really good place. Where you're just like, I wanna be a good person. I wanna, I. Yes, and you wanna be in community.

You wanna have people like you, it's good. That you don't wanna just be a jerk and like, I don't care what you think. Like, that's also a wrong reaction. Abby and I had a conversation a couple weeks ago where I realized that Abby has been operating, I really think throughout our whole relationship, in a place of just being content

and not being driven by fear. She's very secure. And herself, she's not insecure, which is such an attractive trait to have as a person. And I was realizing how I've lived my whole life being super insecure. And I was like, babe, because I was starting to feel secure. I was starting to feel secure I was starting to like to feel like I was experiencing

what it felt like to be secure and I was like this is a really good feeling Abby it's like this is amazing like so you don't you don't like think about what other people are thinking about you all the time she's like no I don't really don't really care no and I'm like this feels amazing this feels so good just to just to know that you're valuable just as you are. It's not fun to be desperate. No.

You said that in the book. You said desperate doesn't look good on anybody or something like that. That's for sure, yep, that's exactly it. I think the thing that I love most about the book, obviously you guys have your faith, which is like so, so important to you. And I love that for you guys.

And I think what's cool though is like anybody can read this book who has ever had a friend that's struggling with people pleasing or maybe themselves. There's just something so raw and vulnerable in the book that you touch on so well, people pleasing and yeah it's not like you have to You don't have to be exactly like you guys you don't have to be From a Christian background to get something out of the book So I think that's like really cool that you guys met people where they're at with with With the book I was telling ginger as she wouldn't when she came up with the title

It was like well, no surely surely there's gotta be a book called People Pleaser. Yeah. And there's not. Because it just, it was like we were thinking, okay, what is a good title? You know, you always run those things like all around, like talk to the publishers and all of that.

And like, wouldn't People Pleaser be great name? But then it's like, no, that's not gonna be possible. But it is interesting, because so many people struggle with it, and that's something that I was just thinking, like, it hasn't been spoken to that many times. And it's like the title itself is available. That's just insane.

Like, it needs to be spoken to, because everybody understands, like, whether you are a people pleaser or you know somebody, like everybody knows someone who is. And so, yeah, and I just thought, like even me writing the book, you know, it's interesting, because I,

like every day things will come up where you're, you will struggle with something people pleasing related. And even though now I'm so much further along, like you said, that freedom that you feel, like when you have started to realize it in yourself, that's the first step of realizing, wait, I am people pleaser. So I wanna rethink how I'm thinking every single day,

every event that comes up, stop and think, okay, wait, I wanna retrain my thoughts to not think that way, because it's not healthy. And when you get that freedom from people pleasing, then you can see, okay, now I want other people to experience that too, because it's so miserable to live in a place where you're just constantly consumed by like, what do they think about me?

Am I wearing the right clothes? All the things that come up in your mind every day. And I think that that was something I thought, I don't feel like the best person to speak to this because I am a people pleaser, but at the same time I just want to be raw and real about where I've been and the things I'm experiencing and hopefully it will help someone. Yeah and Matt has said that I'm not a people pleaser but there's definitely a lot of things that I could relate to too especially when you said

like the tooth reasons why or the things we might get by people pleasing you said one is to feel like we have a place we by people pleasing you said one is to feel like we have a place we belong and then the second one was to avoid being excluded misunderstood and criticized which that one I was like I can actually relate to that a lot like I feel like a lot of times like for me the worst thought is like at times have been like oh man like I feel frustrated I feel misunderstood in this way and I think also like through social media that has been like brought out more I'm like oh my gosh I feel feel misunderstood in this way and I think also like through social media that has been like brought out more

I'm like my gosh, I feel so misunderstood in this area or like sometimes it hurts to not feel included and that's been things I'm like, okay, I feel that a lot and so I just think all that to say I think there's a wide audience I can gain from this book and then This is the code I read to Matt that we both were like, oh that is so well said Because I was like man I don't feel like I've always been trying to win people's approval, but you literally touch on it right here when you said, my point is, I don't think you and I have been

people pleasing just to be the most popular kid on the block. We learned somewhere along the way during hard and unpredictable and scary things, the one thing we can try to do was make everybody happy. Because if we can make everybody happy, maybe just maybe we could keep bad things from happening and I feel like that just like so eloquently put something I had never been able to put to words in my mind and

there are so many moments like that in this book but I feel like that's something that like so many people can relate to where it's like okay I'm not really trying to be like the coolest best person in the world I'm not putting on for everybody but there is like that fear element to it. It's like maybe this will prevent things from going wrong and just kind of like the freedom, like you said, from like letting that go and just being so much more receptive to others needs through that. That was really well said. Oh, well thank you.

Something I think will be really fun is you said in your book, Ginger, how you always would get fearful when people would bring up movie references, TV and film references. Oh yeah. Because you were so sheltered growing up, being a homeschool kid with 19 total siblings. So we wanna play a game because you said in the book

that you've overcome this. We'll see how far I've come. We'll see, Matt. I wouldn't have done this if you still said this. We'll see how far I've come. We'll see Matt. I wouldn't have done this if you still said this was like a big fear of yours, but since you said you've overcome this, we're going to play again. I feel pretty good. So we're going to go ahead and say some big like movie quotes. In the car Matt was like, what are some movie quotes?

Good luck. This is going to go terrible. How many of these do we want to do? Hey, but wait, does Jeremy get to like answer? Because he should, then we'll see how popular they actually are. He can be your phone a friend. I can be a phone a friend. She gets one phone a friend. How many of these do you want to do? Hey, but wait, does Jeremy get to like answer? Because he should, then we'll see how popular they actually are.

I can be a photo, she gets one photo. Then we'll see if they're actually that well known because he would probably know. Okay. Right? So if you don't know it, maybe you get three cheats, maybe you get like three options to cheat and then Jeremy can help you. There's only four we have. No, we can do more than four. Oh, we got it.

Okay, wait, is it loaded? We're going to start or easy. Wait, you had the article pulled up, so you can pull this up.. Oh, we got it. Okay, is it loaded? We're gonna start or easy. Wait, you had the article pulled up. So you can pull this up. Keep swimming. Just keep swimming. What movie is the quote, "'Just keep swimming, just keep swimming'?"

I don't even know. Oh my gosh. You're kidding. I don't know. You're kidding. I don't know. Wait, Jeremy, please. Jeremy, please tell me you know this.

I watch tons of movies. I don't know, but I have a guess. No, Jeremy, you got it. Jeremy. I really don't know. Is it a ter,. No, Jeremy, you've got a guess. Jeremy. I literally don't know. Is it a ter, this is gonna be terrible. I'm gonna say Jaws. Is that terrible?

Oh! Is that terrible? Is it terrible? No, that's what I'm saying. Okay. You guys know the right number, huh? What is it? Ellen DeGeneres is the voice of this character.

It's, this is like a comical character. Guys keep swimming. Disney movie. Sharp, baked, hoo-haha. Oh, it's animated. Disney movie. Sharp, baked, hoo-haha. Come on. Nemo. Yes! Nemo, let's go! No. Comical character Disney movie animated Disney movie sharp big Sushi baked sushi and we're watching me that seems like a bad

Maybe one Okay, okay. That was the one I was confident about. Nope, nope. Okay, here you go. What was number two? I'm definitely in big trouble now. Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore. Wait, say that again.

Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore. I'm gonna say it with the sweet voice. Sounds a little familiar. Come on, Jinge, we've watched it. We've watched it. Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore. No clue. There's so many hidden ones. No, okay, I'm gonna sing the song. We've watched it. I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore. No clue. There's so many hints in that. No, okay, I'm gonna sing the song. I don't know.

Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high. I can't even tell. Think of the Tin Man. Oh, that one, The Wizard of Oz? Oh, yes! The Tin Man, it's only because he said that. Because I've only watched it once. Okay, what about? To be fair, I wasn't really into that movie. That's that. Because I've only watched it once. Okay, what about-

To be fair, I wasn't really into that movie. I was like halfway checked out. She's like, it wasn't my favorite. It wasn't my favorite. It was Black and White. Can I do this one? Okay. Okay, what movie is this quote from?

Sounds like Jeremy Snoring. Luke, I am your father. Jack loves this series. I always make fun of him for it. He's giving so many hits. Is this like, hold on. Think about conflict in the cosmos. Is he like wearing a mask? Yeah. On his face that looks like creepy? Yeah he has a creepy mask a circle mask it's a black where's it she's thinking of no okay you be be be be be you are to D2 I don't know Iron Man what are you going

what's the Yoda quote what What's the Yoda quote? Think about a fight in the sky. I hate movies like that. Star Wars. I haven't watched Star Wars. Okay. Because I was like I didn't want to watch Star Wars. To be fair there's certain genres that Ginger avoids like the plague. Yes. And Star Wars she hates the fictional ones. I hate fictional stuff. Okay, this one I feel like you might know. Okay. You're killing me, Smalls. Yes, I know that from a bat. Where is it from? Okay, well. I know that. You play ball like a girl. That's another one. That's a quote from the same movie. I know you're killing me, Smalls, because I say that a lot, but then I'm like, where did I know that from?

I can't even pull it up. This is how it's a baseball movie. It's a baseball movie with kids There's a big dog that the kids are fighting the ball goes over into their yard. This is on me for not showing you this We need to watch this immediately I know There's is it Wendy peppercorn who one of the main characters If you list names of people I'm never gonna Sandlot have you seen Sandlot? Yes. Okay, that's Did you show it to me? If I haven't I'm a horrible husband That should be the first one you watch because that is really really good So far I've failed

These movies are all that you should go see by the way Okay No don't watch so much Okay well we should even get one you got you'll get one ginger This is a song that I sing to my kids. I'm missing it. This is kind of fun though I want to I want to do this one a cool number Tata What a wonderful phrase It's like one of the jungle movies or something. Ain't nobody died.

Because there's like the jungle dance movie the kids are watching and it sounds like it. But no. Jungle dance movie? Jungle beat. Jungle book. It's not jungle book but you're really close. You're close. It's old school Disney.

Just think. What? Think of this. That's crazy that you didn't grow up with Disney. She didn't grow up with us. So what's core memories for us? She didn't, she wouldn't have had. Okay so that's

Disney's The Lion King. That's The Lion King from... You know the one that's like... Okay. I should know that too. I'll do that. What is this one? The top one? My mama always said, life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. Yes, yes, yes, but see I'm bad with names. That's okay. Can I just explain this on pregnancy? Yes, it's okay Hey, I know this I know this I know this because I feel like she get that one Yeah Give her a single no, I said for scum, but I was like not wanting to say it cuz I was thinking it was another one

She got it. Yeah, okay. That's one. No, no, no, no, this is Abby's favorite movies of all time. I can't remember half of the names too. That's a problem. Oh wait, maybe you know this one. I'm bad with names of movies. You do the voice. Abby's really good at this voice.

Five o'clock? Jazzercise. Five thirty? Hold on, you got it, you got it. Come on, keep going. I don't know how to memorize this. I can't help it, she doesn't recognize that. Just keep going, keep going.

What are you and Kay doing? Just keep going. Max, that is not a chew toy. Never heard of that. What about this? What is it? Do you know what it is? I'm gonna Just keep going. Max, that is not a chew toy. Never heard of that. What about this? What is it? Do you know what it is? I'm gonna do another one.

Oh, no. It's not a dress, it's a kilt. Sicko. Wow, that sounds like a great movie. I've never heard of it. That's Jim Carrey. I like Jim Carrey movies. He's dressed up as something very green.

It's a Christmas movie. Oh, yeah, you know this. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is my favorite. No, it's not Christmas with the Cranks. No, no, no, no, no. Wait, that know this is my favorite. No, the girls love it He's dressed up in green he tries to steal Christmas to steal Christmas? She's pregnant. The Grinch. Yes! Yes! Queen, that was like, that was terrible. And there we go ladies and gentlemen. I was saying we didn't watch that movie the other day. No, I thought- We saw, we were at Christmas parades and the kids kept pointing out The

Grinch. Yeah. But I was like, see I don't even know, because I've watched The Grinch once. Like, years, a couple years ago. Hey, you know what? That is okay. This is really great. And you probably are a happier person because you spent more time socializing than watching movies like we did as kids. So you know what? Like there's always- You're held here for it. Yeah, you're held here for it.

I don't know though, this sounds quite entertaining. Here's a little ginger hack. If you had given her office quotes or Seinfeld, all over it. Really? Seinfeld. You know, it's great. It's so good.

You know what my favorite, you know what my favorite office episode is ever? Just because it's so, it's like so bad, like it would not fly in 2024, it's season one diversity day. Funniest episode ever. Yeah, no chance is that getting aired today. Dude, that show would get canceled in a heartbeat if that was released in 2024. So funny.

And when Kevin spills the chili, bro, love Kevin. That's awesome. So funny. It is such a good show Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah that and Gilmore Girls. I'm like all about Gilmore Girls So I just like watching through it, you know, because I never watched through any of these so I'm just like Getting started. Let's go watch the Sandlot, Jen. Well, everybody. The Sandlot you have to. Go buy Ginger's book It is out now. You can go read it I'm sure it's on Kindle because we like to read on our Kindle Right, it's right. Please tell me it's on Kindle. Yep, cuz I read on my Kindle. Thank you. Yeah, thank goodness

Any of the... But on print is amazing too. So Wow And the audible book is from your voice. It is. That's really cool. That is cool It's a labor of love. You guys have your own podcast. You guys are like, yes You guys are more than 20 episodes into a podcast, which is honestly super impressive. Like that's a lot I we see all the behind the scenes obviously of what goes into a podcast. So like, congratulations on your podcast.

Thank you. Thank you. podcast. Check it out. Yeah. Yeah. I love that you have a J name too. It's fun. Let's go eat some sushi. Let's do it.