The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby - Jinger Duggar Vuolo and Jeremy Vuolo on Growing Up Duggar, Courtship & Baby #3

Episode Date: June 12, 2024

Jinger & Jeremy discuss life growing up in the Duggar household, their courtship, and their plans for baby no. 3 This episode is sponsored by Liquid IV, Huggies, BetterHelp & DoorDash. Liquid IV: Get 20% off your first order of Liquid I.V. when you go to https://LiquidIV.com and use code UNPLANNED at checkout. Huggies: Learn more at Huggies.com. Once again, head to Huggies.com to learn more. BetterHelp: Visit https://BetterHelp.com/unplannedpodcast today to get 10% off your first month.  DashPass: Sign up for DashPass today and get your first 30 days free if you’re a new member. Subject to change. Terms apply.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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We got back from the honeymoon and they were like, are you pregnant? Are you pregnant? I was looking at her like, is this normal? And she's like, yes, in our setting it is. This is what's expected of you. I will look back at my childhood and say, there were things that I definitely would have changed.

The imbalances of kids raising kids is unhealthy. Kids can help out and learn responsibility in other ways. With Jim Bob, did he ask you questions about, have you dated somebody before? Have you kissed someone before? Oh my goodness, I had a 50 page questionnaire. I filled it out. Wait, you're kidding.

It was actually a cheat. No, that's yours. We sat down with Ginger Dugger Volo and Jeremy Volo from the hit TV show, 19 Kids and Counting. As a Dugger, Ginger grew up following the cult-like teachings of the IBLP. Ginger unpacked her childhood in her new book, Becoming Free Indeed, which she said was one of the hardest things she has ever done. We talk about courting, wearing

pants for the first time, to the time Ginger found her stolen diary on eBay for $100,000, all in today's episode. This episode of Unplanned Podcast is brought to you by Huggies Skin Essentials. Baby butts rejoice. Huggies Skin Essentials are here, a brand new dermatologist approved line of diapers, wipes and pull ups training pants, all designed with baby sensitive skin in mind. I wanted to open with kind of a funny question because I was listening to your book, Ginger, and something you mentioned was watching your first movie together on your honeymoon.

So tell me about that. That is so interesting to me because on our first date, we watched the movie together. That's awesome. I love it. Yeah, I just, I didn't watch many movies growing up. And so pretty much any movie that Jeremy asked if I had seen, I was like, nope, I haven't seen it. So he thought it would be fun to like, let's watch a movie.

Cause I just never really did that with him. Yeah, and I knew it. And he knew one. Yeah, it was like a movie that explained her life a little bit. So we turned on the Truman Show and we watched that and I was like, oh my goodness, this is my life. It just was so crazy how, I think there are different

dynamics to that movie that were not so closely aligned with my life, but so many things I could relate to. Just like people looking into your life, like you're in a glass bowl and they're just seeing like everything that you're doing. It was just wild. Like, I just cannot believe how similar that was to what my experience growing up. And Jeremy, when you first met Ginger, is that how you kind of perceived her life? You're like, she is living in The Truman Show.

I mean, as I got to know her and like stepped into her situation in her world, that definitely came to mind because at first I didn't know much about her life and that experience. And so I meet her, I meet her family, and then I kind of see their experience with the TV show and how it is like a glass bowl, like it's like a fish bowl.

So yeah, I mean, I just remember thinking like the Truman show is obviously reflective of like the rise of reality TV. And so her family being such a big presence in reality TV, you've got cameras in your face constantly. Yeah, when you wake up, you're brushing your teeth, you're going to the store. And early on in like the early early years it was more, right?

It was less produced. Yeah, I mean it was legit reality. As you go on, things start to be, okay, they'll suggest stuff. Okay, maybe we can go on a date. You guys go on a date today. Once we were married, they were like, how about you guys go out and play tennis today?

And so we said, that sounds fun, let's do it. But after 15 years of filming them, they needed more ideas of what to do. Whenever they had run out of normal life stuff to do. And when you were courting, did they allow you, like could the camera guy be the quote unquote chaperone or did you still need a sister or brother to be with you guys?

Cameras weren't enough. Cameras weren't enough. Yeah, right. Even though you got the hard evidence. Yeah, yeah. We always had to have a chaperone there with us. Yeah, yeah. We always had to have a shepherd in there with us. Yeah, and that was an interesting thing about even like that purity culture was it was, I think it played the rules, not the game.

If you know what I mean, like it was so focused on like the formal rules of, okay, this is how you must have a relationship or conduct yourself, that at points at times it missed the whole point of what building a relationship is, you know? So that was a wild ride with the chaperones and all that. But yeah, I'll tell you this, like with the cameras, she's so comfortable with cameras. Like I think sometimes Ginger's more comfortable

behind the camera than she might be in normal life at times just because it was like, obviously that's an overstatement, but she grew up with it. Whereas I never got that comfortable where they would be like, we're on a date and you've got three cameramen around you with a mic boom and a producer,

and they're saying cut, and there's extras in the restaurant, having a free meal. And then it's like, all right, you know, having a free meal. No. And then it's like, all right, have a meal. Talk about, you know, your first kiss. Talk about whatever, you know, and they would give us like talking points and so then you just walk through it. And it wasn't staged but it was like prompts.

So if we were not, if we weren't giving them enough, we need a little prompt. Who were these extras that just happened to, you know, be a friend of the restaurant or something? They would use them all the time, just like if it was like a set dinner, then sometimes they would do that or put like a couple friends who would just come sit in the background at a couple tables. So we had our favorite restaurant in Laredo, which is where we, when we got married, we were living in Laredo, Texas, and it's called the Border Foundry.

And to this day, I haven't, we have not found a restaurant in LA that's as good as the Border Foundry. So it was just this incredible steakhouse on the border of Mexico. And so we'd go there all the time, but when we would film there, the restaurant owner would just have his friends

come for a free meal. And so like, they were stoked for that. That's probably such a fun party thing for those people to bring up. They're like by the way I was an extra on episode 5 of season 10. I have so many questions for you. So like did you intend or I guess like when you were growing up and starting to think about like getting married did you like know you were going to pursue a courtship type of relationship, or was that something that, and how did you meet a Duggar daughter?

How did that whole process come to be? Yeah, so no, I didn't grow up in the same setting as her. So I didn't even really understand the, I mean, I had heard the term courtship because years earlier there was like, Josh Harris had a book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, that was like real popular amongst certain Christians. And so I'd heard of it, but we never had bought into that.

So I really didn't understand the dynamics of what courtship was. And I definitely didn't think I would be dating and then marry a girl who's on TV or anything like that. So it was just pure providence of how I met her. And so yeah, I didn't really have a conception of it. And here's the interesting thing too, is like I had no idea who Bill Gothard was.

I had no idea even the religious setting that she was in. So I just showed up because my buddy, Ben Seawald, who married Jessa is like, hey, come on out. I'm with the Duggars at this conference in Texas. So I'm like, cool. And I'd been to conferences before. And so I stepped into that world and it was kind of like shocking,

but initially just in kind of a pleasant way. I was just like, wow, look, everybody's super happy and everybody dresses the same, which I immediately noticed. It was kind of like cookie cutter, but it was a really pleasant experience at first. I was just like, wow, everybody has a ton of kids. I had no idea the theological foundations for that. The why behind it.

Was it an IBLP conference? It was an IBLP conference, yeah. Can you kind of describe for those people that don't know what IBLP is, just a nutshell what it is? Yeah, for sure. IBLP is just like a nutshell what it is. So IBLP, it was basically that was like the program that Bill Gothard started. And so Bill Gothard was this guy who came on the scene in the 60s and 70s.

He was promising parents like a guarantee for success for their families. If you follow my teachings, my principles, then your life will be a success. Your kids will be a light to the nations. They will help people around them. They will turn out really well. And so with the sexual revolution happening at that time,

there was a lot of people concerned for their kids. They're gonna get mixed up in bad stuff and drugs and all of that stuff. So they were really concerned for their kids and he said, I have the key. I have all the answers to life's problems. So just come follow my teachings. So it started out where he had some good things

to say generally. He would like say, okay, if you follow these principles of authority, submitting to the government, your parents, whatever, then your life will be a success. And so parents were like, this is great, let's go. And so they would send busloads of people there. He filled up massive stadiums full of people and it was a big deal. And so a lot of parents were so well-meaning and got mixed up in this.

And the IVLP stands for Institute and Basic Life Principles. And he would fill up these seminars and then they would take it back to their churches and start teaching or their communities And start teaching these principles and then he would have like seminars that they could host in your area And so that's kind of how it spread and his teachings Went to like even other countries and he had Bill Gothard would He had like a headquarters where he would train students. A lot of underage people went there as well, which caused problems.

It's a whole other story. It's a whole other story. So basically the whole thing was built upon one man and his teachings that were the answer to all of life's problems for you. And do you think your parents had these fears of, oh my gosh, what if my kids take part in the sexual revolution and they, you know, start doing drugs? Like, do you think that fear that your parents had led them to fully, you know, follow everything this man said?

Yeah, I can't speak for them and what they were thinking at that time, but I definitely will say a ton of parents were in that place. I think so many of them were really afraid because times were changing. It all seemed so new that there was so much rebellion around in their kids and they were terrified. And so I think that definitely drove a ton of families into these teachings and they were well-meaning, I think, to start out. And some families would step in for a little bit and see, oh, this is really bad.

And they would leave. And other families, the fear drove them to keep going. Yeah. And some of the rules with the IBLP, it was like you couldn't listen to rock music, right? No, no, women couldn't wear pants. I noticed you're not wearing like a skirt today. Like, was that changing from the way you were brought up

and changing from the way that you knew the world as a kid was was that scary the first time you put on a pair of pants or chose I guess to wear makeup I don't know was that a rule? Makeup was fine in our house that was something that was never like an issue but definitely like a lot of those outward standards that were taught to us it is modesty being that you need to wear skirts that fall below the knee. You can't wear sleeveless shirts. You can, like if you have like a normal t-shirt,

you're allowed to roll up your sleeves, but you can't buy a shirt that has the sleeves already off. It's kind of interesting. So it's like all these rules that don't make sense, like the rock music is because you're gonna call the demons into your life if you listen to it. So there was a lot of superstition in those teachings and it was really fear-based and man-made rules. And so whenever I realized, okay, I was going to the word of God, Jeremy really

helped me a lot too to like, he wasn't trying to change me for who I was even, but I think once he realized like, okay, this man is saying things that are not even in the Bible, like, let's talk about it. Why do you believe this? And then it was very quickly, like those things kind of like fell off once I realized, oh, this is not in the Bible. Jeremy had to go through the teachings, like he had to go through 60 plus hours of Bill Gotham's teaching before we could get engaged.

And so he was listening through that, which was actually super helpful because then it helped him to realize, oh, this is why you believe this is because he said this. And so Bill Gawther would take like a verse of the Bible and then he would twist it and make it say whatever he wanted it to say, and then make you make a vow to like commit to do that.

So it was very like deceptive in the way that he taught. And so Jeremy kind of just like walking through those those different teachings, we would pause the video and say, Oh my, like, let's go back to that because that is not what the Bible actually says. It's totally silent on that subject. And Bill Gawthard is making up a case for something that he wants you to do. And so all of those things, I think the fear that gripped me for so long fell off whenever I realized this man is not telling me the truth.

And so I wanted to have the authority be the word of God, not just another man's words that he's just saying. Yeah, it really helped me understand her because I stepped into that setting with her family and I think like most people you just go, oh wow, they have a ton of kids and they do life this way. And when I started getting into the teachings, I started realizing like, oh, there's an underlying like belief system that's driving this behavior.

And ultimately it was fear-based. It was this terror actually of God, which isn't like a righteous fear of God, which is like this all filled reverential fear of God, because he's God, which drives you to him. The fear of God should draw us to love him and draw near to him. It was a fear of like, oh, if I screw up, I'm in trouble. So I have to have life sorted out perfectly

from what I eat to what I wear, to what I say, to what I don't look at, which is why they were terrified of outside influences. It was like, if I hear these noises, I'm gonna be infected. So it was like music out. If I watch these images, then I'm gonna be infected. So no movies.

If I have like a cabbage patch doll in my house, then it could bring harm upon me. Very superstitious. upon me very superstitious So it was superstitious fear and that I mean, you know from a biblical perspective That's just like radically unbiblical, but it helped me understand like oh, that's that's where ginger is coming from And so as I'm falling in love with this girl and then like understanding her mindset more and more We were able to connect on those things and I did just start to see like She was a woman who is committed to the Bible like genuinely loved Jesus mindset more and more, we were able to connect on those things. And I did just start to see like,

she was a woman who was committed to the Bible, like genuinely love Jesus. So when we were able to realize and discover who Jesus is, the fear-based superstition just kind of fell off. Yeah. Out of curiosity, what were some of those specific beliefs that come to mind that, or like teachings that Bill Gothard had that you guys were like, wait, let's talk about this. And then you're like, we're not aligned. Yeah. He has to say. Cause you literally spent 60 hours

like learning about all this. So yeah, I'm so super curious too. So, okay. So one of them would be how Bill Gothard would use the Bible. He would use it like a buffet line. So if there was like one verse, and actually a lot of people do this,

he sees one verse and he goes, oh, I'll use that and then he'll just build a whole system around it. So for instance, he would go to the old covenant blood laws and Israel had all of these blood laws that he gave to the people and he had reasons for them. He had reasons for people treating animals humanely and he also had a theological underlying reason for the reason blood is such a theme in the Bible is because it's where life is. It's called the life blood and so he was showing just how sinful their sin was and ultimately all those blood laws in Leviticus are pointing to Jesus who spills his blood to pay for us It's like the beautiful

sacrificial Most basic element of the gospel and so there's like a theological profundity to it well goth are we go to the blood laws and start telling people like what they could and couldn't do like a husband and wife or Wild like oh, yeah, you need to abstain from being together over those times and like he was a guy who was never married never had kids of his own and here he was as the expert on what you are to be doing as a couple and it was like wow like reference administration yeah oh so like a woman's on their period and yeah's like you can't Away, yeah, yeah

He literally taught no sleeping together, but I mean not in separate rooms But like you can't specifics of like how many days you have to wait and when you could it was wild And so have a kid you need to wait this long I remember hearing that like in his way wasn't it different if it was like a you had a boy or girl Okay, versus a girl. Yeah, So I remember hearing that and going, you know that Leonardo DiCaprio meme where he's like, you know, like, I remember, whoa, wait, what, that, that, that, that. So I paused it and went, wait. Thank you to Liquid IV for sponsoring this portion of today's episode.

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I was like, he's missed the entire point of why God was doing this. He's missed the story of the Bible. He's looking at these leaves, reading them out of context, and he's just making up all these rules. He's missed the point of what God is doing with his people. So then we would go to like a book of like the book of Galatians or the book of Hebrews, and we would sit there and we would talk about it. And she would literally be like, oh, like, whoa, I've never seen this before. Another thing too was like adoption. Oh man.

It was so sad to see because he had such a warped view of like almost, I mean there were some families within the system who had adopted, but he was so afraid of you being able to bring other kids into your home because what about their generational curses that they might have upon them? And so you don't want to bring that child into your home because it could be a disturbance

to your family and you might not know what things they're bringing with them into their, because maybe they grew up in like a location where there was, you know, some voodoo worship going on and maybe you don't know what their grandparents were into. And so if you bring that kid into your home, then your home could be like almost cursed because of it. So it was really harmful. Something like, I'll start going. I wanted to say, there was a point in your book that really shocked me.

And you mentioned how Bill Gothard taught about this woman who had a ship painting in her house. Yeah. And she lost her family in a shipwreck. I don't know if that was just a made up story or a true story that he had actually heard of. And he taught of how having a painting of something could change your future

and could make your family die in a shipwreck. Yes, totally. And here you are a young girl hearing these things. That's terrifying. I just can't imagine being a kid told that a painting in your room can affect oh my gosh I when I was a kid I used to do some weird stuff I was into skateboarding I would wear these t-shirts that had like bloody

snakes on them and skulls my parents were terrified they're like my son's gonna become goth and probably listen to a lot of rock music and look at you in your neutrals I know I was like I wanted to dye my hair black. I'm safe. That's crazy. Well, I was like, I was really into that. I thought it was cool, right? I was just a little boy.

And so, man, I would have been screwed if that was true. Oh, big time. Yes. But see, that's the thing is like, you did have a generation of kids raised in that environment, terrified of everything. They're just terrified of like, what's this gonna do to me?

Is God gonna strike me down? And he would even teach like, there would be things that were out of your control that you weren't aware of. And so hardships, like this is a story he told about a guy who was a business owner, bought a strip mall to invest in, and he allowed a store to be in there and it had a liquor license.

And he wasn't aware of it, but there was a liquor license and everything starts going bad in his life. He's losing money, unhealthy, like terror striking him and he's going, what's happening? And then he finds out there was a liquor license. And so he gets rid of it and everything goes good. Well, that mindset is so superstitious and you're constantly like looking around the corner like, is God going to strike me down for something I'm not aware of? Yeah, it's terrifying.

It really is. And it affected a lot of the ways that I looked at the world around me. And I definitely lived in that fear for so long. Even if I was going out to like play football with my siblings, I wouldn't want to go because maybe I had this feeling I was supposed to stay home and read my Bible. Well, if I go out, am I going to get killed in a car accident? Like I had that fear. And it was something that until I was able to realize okay, this isn't true

This is not based in the Bible. This is not how God sees me then that like produced freedom in my life where I could see Okay, I am NOT gonna be Defining like what what my destiny is gonna be based on what's around me and what decisions I make like that But as far as Bill Gothard is concerned like to me and what decisions I make like that. But as far as Bill Gothard's concerned, like props to him because that's a great way to keep people entrapped in your scheme. Like if you can enslave them to the fear of what you're saying, they have to keep coming back because you've got the only answer. You're the only one who can have the answers. And he built his little kingdom and he'll have to answer to God for that. But as far as like a cult leader wants to go,

like it's a good strategy to keep people entrapped in fear. And you see that pattern. That's why I think Ginger's book hit such a chord because so many people don't know who Bill Gothard is, but these same kind of lies and tactics are used by people in the name of religion all the time. And so you can honestly just like, you could even white out Bill Gothard's name,

describe what he's done and put in a thousand other names. And so many people have experienced that. I'm so curious, was there a time where something bad did happen to you where you maybe, I don't know, did get in a car accident or something happened and you were like, that was it. Like I had that sinful thought and that caused that. Like did that ever happen to you?

That's a really good question. I can't think of a time where it was specifically like that, but I think it was for me it was more just this overwhelming fear. So I didn't ever have an instance where I can say like, oh yeah, I didn't think I was supposed to go and this happened. Like I can't think back to a time where that actually took place, but I always had this looming fear above me whenever I would try to make decisions, just afraid that I would put myself in a bad place where something could happen. And I think going back to like my stepping into this world, I quickly realized early on like Ginger's view of God needs to be, needs to shape, like shift. She loved Jesus and knew Jesus, needs to be, needs to shape, like shift. She loved Jesus and knew Jesus, but had this kind of ad nauseam reaction to this, like, God's going to strike me if I'm not perfectly aligned. And so,

as we would study the Bible together and she would see the beauty of her acceptance in Christ, where of her acceptance in Christ, where God looks at you, if you're united to Christ in faith, He looks at you the way He looks at His Son. So if you've had a great week, He doesn't look at you any different. He looks at you the way He looked at you at the start of the week, which is covered in the righteousness of Christ.

If you've had a horrible week, made terrible decisions, fallen into sin, He looks at you the way he looks at his son. And for so many Christians, they can miss that and they really do think God is like up there in heaven, it's like he loves me, he loves me not, he loves me based on your behavior. And the very gospel is when you're joined to Jesus in faith, you are covered with his righteousness.

So literally you are seen and accepted based on him, not you. And when Ginger kind of got hold of that, it was like, I mean, she just like, you could see the weight of coming off of her shoulders. And I think that's interesting because I think people that hear your story and your upbringing with religion

might be surprised that you are still like consider yourself a Christian and yeah and like participate in that way and I guess like speak to people that might have that train of thought. Yeah I think that that's something that I've seen even in a lot of my friends who grew up in the system that I did. A lot of them have wrestled with that because it's so difficult whenever you were raised in something that has so many elements of truth on one side and then at the same time it's like really tough to like figure

out what is true. So I've said like I'm disentangling. Instead of like deconstructing there's so many who are just throwing their faith away, never to like, you know, they're gonna like tear it down to the studs, never build it up again. Did you ever consider that? It was, so for me, I was somebody who loved Jesus, and I knew that that was my only hope.

And I knew that the word of God was true. And so whenever I realized that these teachings were so warped, for me, it was not an aspect of like, okay, I'm gonna run away from all this. Because I already had that relationship with Christ, for me it was like, I could see, okay, this is not true, but I know that the Bible is true, I just need to pull out what was not true,

what words they told me that were, they said this is scripture, they said, this is scripture, Bill Gothard would say like, okay, here's a verse of the Bible. This is what it says, like, man shall not live by bread alone, right? So then he would take that verse and he would twist it and make it say like, okay, therefore like we actually do need this kind of bread. Like he would go back into exactly the opposite of what the verse said and say, we need this specific bread maker.

We need to do this. So I would just take that verse and say, okay, throw that out. That's not true what he said about like having to eat wheat so many times a week, you know? It's like, okay, no, we need to have a balance in this. What does God's Word actually say? What was the context of this? When was it written? Who was it written to? So, just going back and learning the Bible again from a foundation of God's Word being the authority, not a man's words speaking into it, that disentangling process has been hard. There have been days where it's like tough to like work through all that and it can be

confusing at times, but it's also the most freeing because I know that God's Word is true and that is my foundation. I'm not gonna put my trust in a man or anybody else. My trust is just going to be in Jesus and in his words that he said in the Bible. Obviously you grew up in a household where you had 18 other siblings. So Jeremy, you must have thought maybe I'm signing up for this. Maybe I'm going to end up having 19 children who knows.

Did you think that growing up that you would have 19 children? Yeah. So it's very interesting. That was something that I was always kind of like a little bit afraid of, but I was never the one who was like, give me your kids. I'm going to go babysit your kids for you. Like some of my siblings are more geared that way. Yeah. And they're all about like watching everyone's kids. That's Abby.

Holding their kids. And I'm all for it. I just wasn't, I was like, I will do the grocery shopping, I'll do all the laundry, I don't mind, like give me the chores around the house, I love that. But I was not like, I don't know, I just didn't, I wasn't doing that. So then I was really, I wanted to have kids, I just was like really afraid of the thought of like having as many as possible, but that was what was my destiny.

You just kind of assumed that would be your … Yeah. That was going to be it. I was going to get married and have a lot of kids. And so even on the show, if you watched old shows, I'm sure I probably said multiple times, I'm just going to have as many kids as possible. Oh my gosh. Because they always ask us.

And so I just say it over and over. But I was afraid. I was so afraid to like, you know, to like think about that. So that's an interesting thing because one of the major issues I think in that setting that she grew up in was they were always taught what to think, but they weren't taught how to think. So they weren't, like, she didn't ever actually

have the option to like. I was never taught to like challenge anything. Yeah, and go through and go, well what do I wanna do? Well what does my future, it was like, no this is your future. This is it. This is where we're going to go. So, and my parents were like, I will say, like, I think it was the system that like

brought a lot of that in. And so my parents like wanted us to like be able to do what we want to do like hobby wise or whatever, you know, they like figure out what we're engaged in and like want to like come alongside us and that. But it also did provide a lot of cookie cutters within the system. And so you saw like kids just all wanting to do the same thing. Wow, this is amazing. You all have the same passions and hobbies because it was such a small box.

There was not what you could do. You can't like do drum lessons. Yeah, yeah, it's like everybody is the same thing. You have four. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of a no. It's like everybody is the same thing. You have four. Yeah, totally. And then even like having kids, that was, it was something that I, once I realized that, okay, I don't need to have as many kids as possible, I just felt like a massive weight off of my shoulders because I just thought like this is, then kids can actually be, I think it can be a sweeter situation where they're coming in when they're like when you're like, oh, we'd love to have a kid now. Let's let's have a kid. And instead of like the burden of kid after kid, you know, I'm like just getting over having a baby and having another baby. Sometimes that happens.

another baby. Sometimes that happens, but it's like it's not a burden. I saw so many moms in that setting who were just beat down. They were having child after child. They were on bed rest. They were so sick. The younger siblings were having to like care for the kids for the nine months that the mom was sick with the next pregnancy. And then as soon as she was done, you know, three months later she gets pregnant again and it just happens perpetually until she can't have kids anymore. And the issue isn't like kids. Kids are incredible. No, kids are great and they are a blessing but it's like everything in its right place. Yeah and it was the twisting of scripture to tell every woman this is what you must do regardless. Yeah. And did you, oh sorry, sorry. No, you're good. Did you feel like you missed out on your childhood because you were spending all this time having

to help raise your other siblings, right? My perspective now is like, okay, I don't want to look back too far and try to like pick apart what I wish I would have had or all of that because I have to look at my life as a whole now moving forward and say okay, there were things that I definitely would have changed in some of that, but like I said, I wasn't one of the ones who was like watching everyone's kids. I had two of my siblings who I would take care of and help with their schoolwork, their music practice, help them get their chores done, stuff like that.

And I think that looking at that system, it is imbalanced and I think that parents should be, they should take care of their kids. If you have them, you should take care of them. And kids can help out and learn responsibility in other ways, but maybe not in the motherly aspects of like what moms or dads should be doing. You have all these, the imbalances of like

kids raising kids. I think that I saw that a lot in the system and I think that that is unhealthy. And so I will look back at my childhood and say, okay, yes, there could have been things that have changed. Like we would never do organized sports because we're afraid of influences around us. And so we would do a family sport in the community with just people from the community would come and play and we would all play that together and I loved it. And so some of that like things that maybe we missed out on was like the kids would not know if they're athletic, you know, because like we're playing sports in the backyard

but like you're not on teams. You aren't learning that. You aren't learning what you can actually do. And so I think that being put in that box, that was something that I was looking back, I'm like, oh, I wish I would have had maybe more opportunities to explore what I was really interested in in that way.

Like, you know, so. And when you were married, but you weren't having kids right away, were you guys getting questions from your parents? It was like, we got back from the honeymoon and they were like, and I was like like I was looking at her like is this normal to just be asking like are you pregnant are you pregnant or pregnant? And she's like yes and I was studying it is. Like it was from like her siblings or like friends.

On the show like they would ask us to all the time and it was like the constant question. Oh the producer every time we sit down for interview are you guys pregnant or expecting? How did that make you feel? Well make me feel she was used to it I think I was expecting it. I expected it because that's just what you do in those settings I was like hey get out of that aspect of our life. Yeah, he's like, that's why are you asking us about that? But for me, I was like, okay No, this is just what people do like this is the this is what's expected of you almost This episode of unplanned podcast is brought to you by Huggies skins. Can we just give it up for Huggy's, please? Baby butts rejoice.

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Once again, head to huggies.com to learn more. Now, back to the episode. So I was afraid of the reactions and people thinking, oh no, maybe they think that we can't have kids. And that's honestly probably where a lot of people would think, if you grew up in that setting, you're gonna have kids right away, otherwise maybe you can't.

And so, but realizing, I think the further away from the system that I got, the more I realized, okay, I want to live my life to glorify God, but I don't also want to like be so much a people pleaser where I'm just like allowing everybody else to dictate what we should be doing as a family. And I think that that was a balance that I needed to find. It took me a while to get there. Took me so many years and there are still days where it's like really hard to like do your own thing.

But at the same time, it was what brought me the most freedom and then also realizing like, okay, other people are watching. They're seeing how you're living your life. Like people from the system, they wanna see, are you willing to do hard things and to step outside of that and do what you're convicted of, not just what you're told to do? And I think that also provided room for other loved ones to like follow suit, to be

able to like step outside of that system and think for themselves and not fear that they were gonna be looked down upon maybe if they did something different. Or if they would see her and it's kind of like they're waiting for the lightning to strike. Yeah. And then they realize, oh it doesn't. Like wearing pants. Because they're like, oh they got you.

Wearing pants, not having as many kids is like maybe everybody else is gonna have. And so those things, I think they were so, there's so much fear that will keep you bound if you let it. Well did they assume that you were not able to have kids? Or were they thinking, oh my gosh, they're using birth control, that's not okay?

I don't know. We just didn't talk about it. We waited a year. Yeah, it wasn't super long. You're like, it's a year. It was just a year. So we just waited a year and then I was ready. And my approach was just when she says, let's have kids, because I'm like, yeah, let's a year. It was just a year. So we just waited a year and then I was like ready. And my approach was just when she says let's have kids because I'm like yeah

let's have kids you know. Yeah but I mean now like Evy's Evy is three and a half yeah and that's a lot of time. We jumped into like newly married but I still feel like we bypass like the courtship thing which would be very interesting to a lot of people because I feel like a lot of people navigate engagement, relationships like that. So what did that look like for the two of you? For me, it seemed like it was gonna be more normal because my family, all of them just did this courtship thing.

But then when it comes down to where it's actually you in the courtship, I think even Jeremy being an outsider coming in, looking at it, and we would it's like, it's actually you in the courtship. I think even Jeremy being an outsider coming in, looking at it, and we would talk through like, okay, are we going to have my 10 year old brother there as my chaperone to be with us at dinner or in the car? It was interesting. Once we were engaged, especially like, I think that's where I started to realize, oh, wow, we actually need time to talk about things that we need to talk about, just us. And so if he came out to visit, we were long distance, he was in Texas, I was in Arkansas,

so if he flew out to visit for a weekend, he would say, okay, I'm going to call you when I get home. Or like if he was, you know, even if we were like in person, we needed to talk. Because your 10 year old brother is there, you're like, he doesn't need to hear this. You can't talk about that when you're about to get married. I never did the the only chaperones we would use is like we'd go on a double date or something? Did this happen after you played professional soccer? Oh yeah. So you'd been like, yeah, I'm sure,

I don't know if you've traveled the world doing that, but you must've just been like a guy, just being a guy, and then you're like, okay, now I need a 10 year old on my date with my girlfriend. And he was pastoring a church at the time. Okay. I'm like doing marriage counseling. How old were you?

I was 27. He was 27. You were older than me when this was going on. So that was the thing, is like, I would literally go from like, pastoring a church, I'm doing marriage counseling, How old were you? I was 27. He was 27. You were older than me when this was going on. Yeah. So that was the thing. I would literally go from like, pastoring a church, I'm doing marriage counseling, and then step into a setting where it was like those rules. And that's where I say it was like playing the rules, not the game.

It was like so focused on the rules, missing the point of what we're doing, the objective here, which is like, and I told her honestly honestly and this is why I wouldn't be pro-courtship or anything If I need because the spirit behind it is good, right? Like oh you want to have purity and you want to really focus on each other and not get physically entangled And okay, but if I really need these rules to keep me moral I'm not a good dude Like don't marry me like if the only thing keeping me pure and focused on her and loving her well is like a chaperone,

I'm not a good person. Like I need to work on self control. So we saw through those boundaries and here's the deal. You can get around boundaries if you wanna get around boundaries. Legalism and rules never accomplish. It looks like it's gonna work, but it never does what. It actually doesn't deal with the issue.

And so Ginger and I honestly looked at our courtship and said, we'll make the most of it. I wanted to obviously respect that. And so, wanted to be- Yeah, Jarrod's so respectful, like coming into that setting. He didn't have like an attitude about him, which I think I really appreciated that. And I think he didn't even know

all of what he was getting himself into. I always tell him I'm like you didn't know what you're getting yourself into when you stepped into our world but he was he was so good about like okay I'm gonna jump through these hoops because this is like what's required of me and then you know we'll have our lives together. I want to ask how that even happened in the first place like did you because you guys met at a conference did you say come back home and be like mom, dad, there's this guy, did you ask to court him? Like how does that even work getting started in that?

It was crazy, so whenever he showed up there, I met him at that conference and it wasn't until later, like how many months later was that? Several, it was several, it was December, yeah. So five or six months went by and he was talking to Ben and Jessa and you you'd visited like one other time came to our house in between then just to hang out with my brother-in-law because they were friends and he was like oh yeah I have some sister-in-laws you know my brother had my brother-in-law told him. He's like, I got a few. And so, yeah, you have something to choose from.

Here you go, just take your pick. So, he took his pick and it worked out, but it was like, what happened was, though, he signed up for a missions trip that we were all going on. Yeah, I started to like her. Because he started to like me. And I'm like, strategizing with Jess. How can I get to know her?

She's like, go on this missions trip because you have all these guys come and trying to get to know these girls. Obviously there's a wall up because of the TV and all that. She's like, go on this missions trip, you'll get to know my family really well. And it was being recorded for the show? No, that one wasn't.

Oh, okay. No, that one wasn't. I don't think so. They had already filmed a lot of them. I don't think they wanted to go on that one. So I signed up for that. And so that was Jess's kind of a helpful strategy and she's like you'll you'll get to see Ginger as well like for this I think there's a week long. Yeah, we were going for like two weeks

I think you only came for like the first part And so I went like okay, I want to get to know her obviously better But I also want to get to know her family and stuff and so it was organic It was as organic as it was really pretty chill We're like a big missions group with like I don't know 60 other people or so We were able to just like be around each other on that trip away from like even filming and stuff which is great less pressure that way and It was awesome because whenever we came back from that trip well

He had talked to my dad at the end of that trip you can tell him about that Yeah, and I just expressed interest. And so he wanted to get to know me, obviously, which is understandable. Was that a high pressure conversation to enter into? No, I don't think so. I just, he probably saw it coming a mile away. Okay.

It's like, you're talking to his daughter all this time. Yeah. I think I'm getting slick. You came all the way here. Yeah. And he signed up like a week before the trip. Yeah. And we had signed up like several months before.

They allowed him to like come last minute. I think Jess up pulled some shirt. So Jess was like, we got to get this guy on this trip. So he saw it coming, I think. So I just asked him like, hey, I want to get up to know her. And he was like, yeah, she's great. I was like, I know. And he's like, well, you need to get to know me first.

So yeah, what was that conversation though? It was like a three minute conversation. I remember it. Oh, pretty short. I would have thought it was like, well, you need to get to know me first, so. And yeah, what was that conversation though? It was like a three-minute conversation, I remember it. Oh, pretty short. I would have thought it was like a long, because you literally watched 60 hours of Bill Gothard's teachings. Well, no, this was later, that was later. That was later, yeah. So that was, like Abby said, we got our timeline, we zoomed forward, so I asked Mr. Dugger, and then he's like, let's get to know each other first, and then that's where him and I start

talking, and he actually asked me soon after to start watching the gothic stuff. Was it a VHS tape? Like how did you get this? No, they had a web streamed online. Yeah, it's streamed online. And uh- Was there questions afterward to make sure you actually watched it? Oh yeah, we'd talk about it. Oh nice. Yeah, we would talk on Friday mornings and chat about it. And at first, it was interesting because, you know, going back to the whole Gothard thing, I was just like, oh, this guy's got some interesting things to say. It was kind of philosophical. And I remember in one of our first conversations, Ginger and I talking about those, she asked me what I thought. And I went, yeah, he's not a Bible teacher, but he's got some interesting things to say.

I think that's like my exact sentence. And I think for her, she she was like what? It was really shocking. Because she thought he was the Bible teacher. He was the most amazing person. Yeah. You know. But at the time he would so that's what Mr. made gothic effective was he had a cultural analysis which was accurate. It was the solution that got wonky. So he would like he talked about the rise of humanism and secularism and you're just going, yeah, that's right, you know. So those initial sessions I watched, I would at times go, oh, that's a little interesting, but there weren't like alarm bells going off, you know. Yeah, it wasn't until the further in you get to the teachings. And with Jim Bobb, did he ask you questions about have you dated somebody before? Have you kissed

somebody before? Oh my goodness, bro. I had a 50 page questionnaire I filled out. Well, you're kidding. It was actually a sheet. So it was like, how far have you been with a woman? Yeah, everything. Every single question. Have you done, have you smoked weed?

Have you drank? All those questions in there. What was the most bizarre one that was like, what is like anything that threw you off that wasn't expected on the sheet? Probably all of it. I think it started out like, what's your- Do you have any debt? Oh yeah.

So it was financial, it was moral, it was relationships, it was past history, it was- Family's history. Oh, it was view on finances, view on debt, view on family, view on kids, view on, I mean it was like- Was it provided by the IVLP or did he create it? Somebody sent it to him. I think somebody in the IVLP did in the IDLP yeah I think somebody did and they sent it to him and low-key it was actually it's like I wasn't mad at it because it's a

great conversation like it's really crazy if it's I mean it was crazy but I'm just saying like it actually did end up on the flip side of it and ended up producing a lot of conversation for us. Oh yeah, it's crazy. Because I was able to kind of look at that and I was like, okay, I'm just going to look through this and see. Honestly, now that I'm thinking, I was about to be like, that's crazy. Pretty convenient. But when I'm thinking about this, I'm like, that's kind of good. Like if you're marrying somebody that has $200,000 of student loans, you might want to avoid that relation.

Just wait, if you guys have a daughter. That's a horrible thing to say. I'm serious. I mean, seriously, come on. But if you guys have a daughter. That's a horrible thing to say. I'm serious. I mean, seriously, come on. But no, if you're a teacher and you marry someone. You're gonna be handing these out, you're making photocopies. Done, it's already done.

We could have gone to school at like Michigan, right? Where it was 60 grand a year and put all that into, like that would have all been debt. And then here we have an arts degree. Like how do you make money with an arts degree when you have a hundred, what is that? 240 grand in debt? 60 times four?

He's crunching numbers right now. Right? That's a quarter of a million dollars in debt. So here's the crazy thing. So, no, but so like I said, like the motivation for a lot of that was good. Cause a lot of couples, this is what happens. Couples get involved physically. They get involved on like superficial

personality traits like, oh my goodness, we get along so good because we both love the same movies. And they actually get go real serious, real fast with an intense relationship. And oftentimes never actually hit the reality of life and engage on the reality of things that are years down the road, but because it's such a superficially based relationship, they're not thinking permanence, they're not thinking long-term. And so, you know, when you think about what a marriage is,

when you're saying I do, and you're saying those cute words, you know, in sickness and in health, well, in poverty and wealth, no, that's real. And life is hard and life is difficult. And love is not a feeling first. It's a decision that results in feelings, but it's a self-sacrificial decision to commit to someone regardless of anything else. No matter what happens, I love you the way Christ has loved me, which means I love you in spite of your failures, mistakes, in spite of whatever life throws at us. I am choosing to love you.

That's heavy. And so people who go into marriages, and I do pre-marriage counseling all the time, people go into marriage not thinking about the basic foundational elements of life. And that includes finances, that includes moral decisions, that includes children or whatever else. So the front load relationships with questions like that, I'm not saying like on second date, be like, okay, let's talk about.

But- Maybe not 50 pages. 50 pages, not even. Like that's a good motivation. And honestly, like I have two daughters, like I'm putting those guys through the wringer. You know what I mean? Like I'm not gonna just- But not like in a- But it becomes honestly, like I have two daughters, like I'm putting those guys through the wringer. But it becomes like this formalized kind of like, and that's where purity culture I think

went wrong. Yes. But it created- It's too formal at the beginning, which that's the issue I think that I saw with it too, is like it's super formal and there's so much pressure to like know if you want to like be in a courtship with this person before it's actually like known. And probably part of that was to, I don't know, I mean, part of it was we were in the public eye and so if you bring somebody around that you're talking to, you need to know right

away like am I going to be in a relationship with this person? Because maybe they're going to film something about us and then maybe it'll air and then if we break up, it's more pressure. So we also had that. But with the whole courtship thing, I think that the main thing was like there's pressure to know like, okay, do I want to like marry this person tomorrow? Well, I don't know. I need to get to know you.

But you also like can't be casual friends. That really freaked me out with Abby because I viewed relationships in the same way. So I almost broke up with Abby in the first month because I was like, am I going to marry this girl? I don't know. And it was eating me alive. It was freaking me out. What? Well, I was like, because I had that same view. I was like, okay, dating is for marriage. So like, am I going to marry her? I got to decide right now. And it's like, I think she's cool. She's my friend. Like we really like each other. I don't know. That's really freaking scares me. And so I almost,

I almost ended it because of that. But I, I'm so curious because Abby was my first relationship. I'm so curious was, was Ginger your first relationship? No, no. And I was open with her about that at first. Like I got married when I was 28 and she got married when she was 22. They're six years. I had just turned 28, she was 22, and if I had gotten married when I was 22, it would have been a disaster. I was not in a place of maturity, of spiritual maturity, and so I'd had previous relationships. I was her first serious relationship too.

So was that hard though? Because you had to keep physical distance between you at all times. You couldn't just like watch a movie with your hand over her shoulder, right? Like, well, we could like, we could like, we could, yeah, we could like sit on the couch and accept each other or whatever, but like, it was just rules. Like they just have a lot of rules. So, but, but for me me, I obviously, I was

pastoring. I was really serious about my relationship with the Lord by that point in my life. And so I wanted physical purity. I didn't want... We didn't... I think they would have been fine to kiss before we were married, but we didn't. We followed all the rules that my family wanted us to follow. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. We would be so screwed if it wasn't for our counselor that we found through BetterHelp. What do you mean so screwed? I'm just saying like it's been, therapy has been great.

I'm a big fan of BetterHelp. I just love how accessible it is because I think that especially growing up in a small town like you're, you got like four options of a therapist and now with BetterHelp with the internet we have access to BetterHelp. Yes, and say, let's pretend that you sign up for BetterHelp and you're like, ah, don't really vibe with my therapist, guess what? You can switch free of charge.

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to go to therapy, it was ridiculous. And then a whole hour back, it was, I don't recommend that. Like doing online therapy is a must. We need to get rid of the stigma around therapy. I think we've made a lot of strides in that direction. And I think that a lot of people can benefit from it, pretty much everyone, honestly. And what's great about BetterHelp, like you said,

is that it's online. You do a brief questionnaire, and then they assign you a therapist. Like Matt said, you can switch at any time with no extra cost. But then you can just make it perfectly designed for you and your schedule to fit your needs. And you can also like reschedule or cancel when you need to.

And it's not a huge hassle like traditional therapy would be. Take a moment, visit betterhelp.com slash unplanned podcast today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P.com slash unplanned podcast. Back to the episode. Why did you decide to do that?

Because at that point, right, you were 21 when you first met. So why at 21? Because you were rethinking all these things. So I'm curious why you chose to go through with all that. Well, because I was still in this, the, in this system, you know, I still had a lot of things that I was coming out of.

And the other side was I did want to like Respect my parents wishes and I thought okay. This is a season and yes, it's our life But it's also like their wishes and so I wanted them to be I wanted them to like Jeremy I wanted them to like this relationship happening. And so I thought there are any of those things where I can like Give up whatever I might want to do, and at that point I probably would have thought maybe I should save my first kiss for my wedding day. I probably still believed that. But I think a lot of those things started to fall off later,

and at the same time having the chaperone there was not convenient all the time. And that was something that I probably could have had a conversation with my parents and even said hey like I don't really see it the same way But I didn't I also wanted to just like probably because I was working through so much of the teachings and breaking it down I thought okay. I'm just gonna work through this on my own right now There was never a desire to be disrespectful or like, even if there's things it's like, oh, we should do it differently.

Ginger and I both were totally ready to lay down our rights and say, yeah, we'll follow your wishes. And knowing like, I knew, I was falling in love with who she was. And so the superficial things, even like I didn't press on her not to wear skirts or she came to those decisions on her own and I really wasn't that concerned about it because I was in

love with her and so I knew to like hey the more we live life together and the more she's grounded in the Word of God some of this stuff will just fall away like because it doesn't it doesn't really have any it doesn't have any teeth to hold her. And I think you saw a lot of that like even talking about the teachings and stuff and I I just like had a light bulb moment, you know, I was like what is Yeah, I knew she got it. Like she got it, you know, my eyes were open to it to How bad the teachings were that I was in and I really wanted to come out of them And so I think he saw that too and I wasn't in a rush to like be like, oh, can we change things?

It was kind of like hey, I know who this woman is at her core, that's who I'm marrying. And if we need some chaperones, it's like, sure. And I'm gonna do everything to respect her father and respect her mother. And I'm not trying to come in here like, you know, this big, you know, shake things up. I wanna be respectful. And honestly, that's how I'd want somebody

to approach me for my daughters. Like, even if I have rules they don't agree with, it's like, hey man, that's my daughter and I want you to respect that. And ultimately, yeah, I think I wanted to have integrity through that whole process. And it's really commendable. What was it like the first time you wore pants

in front of your family? I can't remember when the first time was I did that. I didn't know if that was a big moment. Was it the other day? Was it last? Yes. Okay. No. I didn't know if that was a big moment. I know. Was it the other day? Was it last? No. It was probably like maybe like a couple years after I started wearing pants.

Because I mean we live far away from home. Oh, okay. But like the first few times I went back I was not wearing pants. I wore a skirt just to honor. Just to because it was yeah. It was just you know. I knew that that's a big deal for my family and I didn't wanna like,

my heart is not to rub anything in anyone's face and be like, I'm doing this, I'm doing my own thing. Like, I ultimately wanna play a long game of like showing them that, okay, I love you. I know that we disagree on a lot, but I want you to see that I'm walking with Christ and this is what I'm doing. I don't feel like it's a sin to live my life in this way, to do what I'm convicted of now.

And I want them to see long-term those things, but I don't have a heart to rub it in their face. And that's where, about Ginger's process like with all these things that seemingly seem insignificant like pants or something. Ginger's heart has always been I want to honor my family, I want to respect them and love them and ultimately I want to have a sweet relationship. So there's never been a mindset of like you know oh I'm free and let me so even when we approach those topics,

it was always thoughtful, it was always, let's have a conversation, let's explain where we're at. And it wasn't like we got married and then she went, okay, I'm writing a book. It was, that was a six, five, six, seven year process of her going. Me living my life and then seeing like, okay, now I wanna share this story because I see it so,

these teachings are so damaging and coming out, okay, now I wanna share this story because I see it's so, these teachings are so damaging and coming out of them, it made me want to like speak because I could look over and see friends and loved ones who are being so harmed by this teaching all around me. And I can't just be quiet. And did you have, like, did you think through the conversation, call up your parents and tell them, hey, I'm not wearing pants?

Or was it one of those things where you're like, I'm just doing this, and then they find out how it was? They find out. Yeah, just like you said, just having a conversation with them. Oh, you did. You felt the need to need to call them up and let them know. Yes, because it's a big enough thing in my family. That's huge. It might seem so small, like Tara said, it seems so insignificant to so many,

but for my family that was massive. And so I wanted to let them know, regardless of how things go, I just wanna be able to share that. And I don't feel like I have to share every little thing with them now. Even looking at our lives, we are living our lives however we want.

We're not like, oh, I have to call my mom and dad and tell them, okay, I'm going to do this differently. But that was like one of the first things. And also I think the big thing is just because we're in the public eye, I knew that there was going to be so much that would blow up, you know, if it's like a paparazzi photo when we're out, this taken, okay, that happens all the time. So like, let's just be ready for it. I'm just going to tell them. And then that way they know, and they know that it came from a heart of in, okay, that happens all the time, so like, let's just be ready for it.

I'm just going to tell them and then that way they know and they know that it came from a heart of like, hey, this is what I feel convicted of or don't anymore, you know? And they can just know from my heart and then we'll move on. And so that's kind of how it was with a couple different things that I felt convicted of, whether that was like getting a mortgage on a house, like, because my dad's in real estate, I was like, well, let's just run this by him and we're gonna just tell him what we're doing. Not like, hey, what do you think of all, what do you think of what we're doing? Sometimes there's an element of that.

We asked our other counselors in our life at that point what we should do and they were like, yeah, go for it. And so I just wanted to include them on a couple of those things. But as we've moved on, like we have our lives here, we're established, we have a great community around us, an awesome church that we're a part of and love it. And so like we'll have other people that we're asking those questions to now. And yeah, I think it's a it's a healthy place to be. But I just always wanted to show them that I loved and cared about them, even if we have differences.

Wow. Yeah, I did not think through, you know, obviously it is a big deal, but yeah, just wanting to tell your parents, hey, I mean, I respect you calling them and telling them that because you obviously didn't need to do that, but just like caring about them enough to call them up. How does that, is that frustrating when something gets picked up in the media or I'm sure there's been so many articles written about like we've never dealt with paparazzi. We we make TikToks like we're we don't we're not paparazzi people but you

you've dealt with that and so it must be really frustrating when people twist a storyline or try to paint you have to be somebody. How does that make you feel? I don't know, I think just having grown up in the public eye, there's a certain level of realizing, okay, this is just our life and it's not like we have this crazy amount of paparazzi following us every single day. There were seasons where it was wild like that. And it's ultimately, I realized like whatever they say, there's always gonna be a naysayer

There's always gonna be someone if it's a comment in your social media all of us experience it You know if it's a friend saying something behind our back Whatever it is at the end of the day I just want to let it like roll off my back if it's something that's negative now if it's something that's legit Then that's where it hurts worse like if it's kind of like twisted, you know It's like oh ginger did this and she's doing this despite her parents. I'm like, no, I am doing, like I'm gonna wear pants,

but it's not to like, to make them mad. Like those things bother me if it's like about my family or if it's about my kids. So for instance, we have kept our kids off of social media. That's something I felt like both of us felt like really Inclined to do and so we showed Felicity at the beginning for a little bit when she was small And then I just really felt like I don't want their faces out there. I don't want them to have to like and Just be a part of this because I was and I said like if they have you know One of following later they can go do that for themselves when they're old enough to decide.

But that was something we felt convicted about. Well, then all these articles pop up about my youngest, Evy, they were like, well, why haven't you showed her, you know, like you won't show her face? Does she have a medical condition that you're ashamed of? Like, what's the thing that's wrong with her? And so you'll still see articles about that and it's like you know if you don't show them then they're like oh this is crazy they always think that we have major marriage issues if we aren't on social media for a couple months and I'm

like no it's just because like I'll do like push through social media do stuff you know and then I'll get burnt out so then I just back off and I'm like it's fine I won't do anything on social media for a few months. You just haven't taken a picture together in a long time. I just wanna like, yeah. But it's like because you're not, because you've lived your life in front of them for so long, there will be a few, just a few people who will write up all this stuff. And so those types of things, now we've just like, we just kind of laugh it off and like, oh, that's funny.

We've had people on the show that have been a part of like family vlogs on YouTube and one of the siblings decided, hey, I don't really want to like be in the videos that much. And so their parents respected that, you know, didn't have them in the videos and same thing. Their audience was like, oh my gosh, they hate that kid. People that love their story. It's like, what is the drama?

Oh my gosh, they don't like their kid. And so I find that so fascinating that they kind of did the same thing. The media did that with you guys. Yeah, for sure. Drama sells. I mean, it's just, you get clicks. The more clicks you get,

the internet has changed that for journalists because now it's about clicks. You can actually measure how many people viewed this, how many people, and then they see like, oh, these negative headlines get thousands of more views and so it's not genuine journalism. It's like journalists who fail journalism, but it gets clicks because the more audacious you can be and then obviously you have the laws in our country really protect the journalist

from defamation so it's like you really can't sue for defamation. And so they're just after clicks. And so we understand that. And so it kind of rolls off our back. Yeah. Early on in our relationship, we determined, and this is like initial. Now we'll read some headlines, but it just pops up. But early on, I mean, our engagement was on magazine cover

or whatever, and I was just stepping into this world. We were just like, we're just not going to read it. Because what happens is the good headlines. And I guess this is true of like comments, too. Like if you put out a video or put out a reel and you read good comments, you're like, oh, yeah, it can easily go to your head and puff you up. But then the negative ones cut to your heart and like tear you down. And so you find yourself on this roller coaster of people's opinions and some guy's eating Cheerios in

his mom's basement and all of a sudden my emotional state is being affected because he didn't like the way I put the car seat in the car. And so it's back. So you just go, I'm just not going to read it. I'm just going to avoid that. And I was told that, playing soccer professionally, it was like, do not listen to the blogs. Do not go on Twitter. Do not because you'll have a performance and people will just rip you apart. And so it's better just to keep your headspace on reality.

When your life is so public and you're on a TV show, I'm curious, was there a point where you're like, are we going to see some money out of this? Was that a conversation that you had with the producers, your parents? Because Counting On was a show that you guys were very much a part of. So I'm sure you probably had to make some sacrifices

for the show and to make that happen, right? Yeah, that was interesting. The dynamics there, we chose, again, we chose not to make money an issue because once you mix money and family, things get complicated real fast. We understood there was issues with the money. That show was making a ton of money. But Ginger and I just both determined we're not gonna make this an issue. Even though this might be a hill that we can fight on, we're just not gonna fight on that hill.

We had conversations. But we just kinda like, at the end of the day, it was like, okay, we'll just do our own thing, make our own money somehow. And so we determined, I mean, through counsel and talking to others too, like, okay, we'll just do our own thing, make our own money somehow. And so we determined, I mean, through counsel and talking to others too, like, we're just not gonna fight that battle. Gotcha.

And so if some came in, we were like, great. And if it didn't, we just honestly just said we're not gonna fight that battle. Because we just knew, honestly, we were playing, we saw bigger issues. And I think there were some issues that seemed to be like leaves on the tree but the root of the issue was deeper and more theological and Ginger had a conviction I want to speak to the deeper issues.

Yeah. And I don't want the others to get in the way of my voice on that. Yeah because for me my heart really is in all of that. I want to, at the end of the day, I want to have, it's not about like just going over the issues and like just covering them up. That's not the thing. We talk through a ton of issues and work through it was hard, you know, and at the end of the day, it's like I want my loved ones to see, like to come out of these teachings. And so I want to be helpful to them to like get them out of this system, to get them like that was my drive.

And so I thought I wanna be in a place where I can still talk to them and still be in their lives. Like I don't wanna be like, yeah. I don't wanna make unwise decisions to where it would be tough to do that later. And not to say that those issues shouldn't be addressed and then being addressed have been addressed properly. It was just the avenue we thought. Just the timing too. Timing I think was a huge thing because like we did have conversations about a lot of things that were not easy. But I

think that our heart and all of it was just to make sure that whatever we were doing, that we would be living as we wanted to as a couple. And then from there, like my goal is just to like reach my friends and loved ones to like pull them out. This episode is sponsored by DoorDash. You guys, we just got back from a long trip and Abby and I were starving and the kids needed to go down for a nap.

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I DoorDashed my coffee in the morning because I was like, I don't have the creamer I want, but I know that I'm going to need some quality caffeination today. I door dashed my coffee. Wait, you're door dashing groceries now too, right? I also door dashed groceries to make food for our neighbors who just had a baby get out of the NICU. Yeah.

I made little egg white bites and I just had all the ingredients sent from DoorDash. It happened so fast too. You really can't beat the convenience of it. DashPass is an exclusive membership that DoorDash also offers and it gets you unlimited zero dollar delivery fees on eligible orders and members only deals and discounts. So you're saving money on top of your time saved. So exactly it's just savings upon savings. And this summer is the summer of DashPass and you can get the best deals and exclusive items from your favorite brands like Taco Bell, Popeyes, and even Ulta Beauty. What's

really cool is that Dash Pass also pays for itself in on average two orders alone. So if you are ordering on DoorDash more than two times a month, which be honest with yourself, I think you probably are, then you'll automatically save by getting a DashPass membership. Sign up for DashPass today and get your first 30 days free if you're a new member and enjoy a summer full of savings. DashPass benefits apply only to eligible orders, terms apply. Back to the episode. You know, there were times where I was like, OK, we were done.

We were done filming, right? And it was tough. Like, we wanted to be, you know, have our kids off of TV or things like that where there were aspects where it was things that we wanted to do. And we realized like, okay, we might not be able to get everything that we want right now. Like it's not possible.

And so I wanted just to play a long game with my family relationships to preserve those to be able to be In a good influence on them to like get them out of these teachings was my goal So like even when I wrote that book right like going into that I was like, maybe I shouldn't write this book because family relationships might be harmed by it they might think that I'm doing this out of spite or Sharing my story for and another reason if they think like oh, maybe this book's gonna do well So I'm gonna share my of spite or sharing my story for another reason if they think like oh maybe this book is going to do well so I'm going to share my story and make money

off of it. I didn't want to make that an issue. So I said well I'm convicted that I should write this so I'm going to do that even though it's hard and it was the hardest thing I've ever done but it was the right thing to do so I'm not going to sacrifice conviction on what I think I'm supposed to do based on what other people want me to do or not say, you know? But at the end of the day, when it came to like the show and all of that stuff, I was like, I'm going to set that aside for the opportunity to be in their lives and to be able to speak into their lives in a positive way to hopefully help them come out of these teachings.

So writing the book, phrasing that as the hardest thing you've ever done, I quite honestly listening to it, like I, I've assumed that it probably was hard, but for it to be the hardest thing you've ever done, what like, I guess elaborate on that for me, which I mean, the more you talk about, I'm like, okay, duh, no wonder this was what this was tricky. Like this is your whole life. This is everything that you knew. There must have been a lot of pain and entwined with all that so I guess yeah I think just because of the system it was my life it was everything so if you're just in like sorry I don't know no you're okay I usually get too emotional over this but I think it is painful like when you leave everything that you've known and you sacrifice relationships over it, it's hard.

I'm so sorry. When you sacrifice relationships with like friends, people thinking that you're doing the wrong thing by speaking out, it's hard because it's like, especially being in such a tight-knit community where those are your people, and I was building my own community outside of it but I did not have even the strongest community when I was in that place of starting writing. So that aspect of like having a few close friends that I was starting to place of starting writing. So that aspect of having a few close friends that I was starting to get friendships with and having a good community around me was just beginning in a new place because we had just moved to LA and then writing that and realizing like,

okay, if I write this book, I could really just cut off this whole all I've ever known. just cut off this whole all I've ever known. And that was the side, the risk that I had to take. And ultimately in the end, yes, there have been some that I probably won't be close to because I wrote that book. But then at the end of the day, I realized like, okay, I have also been able to help way more people than I ever would have if I lived in that fear of being in the comfort of where I thought I was.

It wasn't actually comforting because I was living so gripped by that fear of I can't ever say anything, I can't ever speak out about this because I just knew where that would lead me. It would leave me in a place with no one. But ultimately, that's not what has happened in this book writing This book has been the best thing that I've ever done

Because it's also helped me to grow it's helped me to realize like okay I want to be a voice to speak up whenever it's hard and I want to show even others who were in that place to be willing to do the hard things be willing to step outside of That Harmful theology that you might be in right now do the hard thing now and you won't regret it later And so that's something that even for my kids I want them to see that it's not best to take the easy route You know, it feels comfortable in the moment, but you're going to help more people if you are willing

to sacrifice yourself in that way. I know your book has been an inspiration to so many. I'm sure people tell you that and write reviews about that all the time. Something I'm curious about is choosing to write this book was one of those tough conversations you had to have probably with your parents. Yeah. I had to share with my parents. And it was, yeah, it was hard having those conversations

with them because ultimately I chose to write my book from a perspective of the theology being the driving force because I thought if my mom reads this, if my dad reads this, if my siblings read this, how are they gonna take it? I don't wanna like not talk about things that need to be talked about because they can be offended at what I said that is true. You can be offended that I say that Bill Gawthard is a false teacher, but I don't want you to be offended over a petty thing that I might have said about you.

So I chose to keep it focused on the issues of the teaching that I was raised in. To keep it more broad, like where if anybody reads this coming out of a harmful teaching, that they can be brought out of their teaching too. And so that's the perspective that I wanted to take and I told them that from the beginning. I think that was something, one more conversation

that I had that I thought this is needful to share with them what I'm writing and they don't have to be happy about it but it's what I need to do. Was that hard to like weigh that versus like, you know, scripture saying, honor your mother and father, was that been like a really hard thing to like separate? Not for me.

I don't think that that was an issue because I am honoring them. Honoring doesn't mean obeying. It doesn't mean doing everything that they say and as a couple we are our own family unit and so I need to love and honor my parents which means respect them but I don't have to bow down like everything that they say I need to do and And so that for me was very clear. I had clear conscience going into that, writing this book, thinking I am honoring them. I even said I'm grateful for, you know,

my childhood was not perfect. I shared a lot of difficulties that I struggled with throughout my childhood, but at the end of the day, like, I'm grateful for my parents. I love them. We have differences. Everything's not perfect between us, but I think that at the end of the day, I love them,

and I know that they know that. I think that it's good that we're able to speak out, especially being in a public place. You don't have the option, I guess, I don't know, you have the option. You don't have the option. I guess I don't know you have the option You don't have the option to just stay silent like because this is some teachings These are the teachings that I promoted when I was on the show I promoted these teachings as being good courtship is being the option wearing these clothes as being the option

I wrote a New York Times best-selling book with my sisters that talked all about Bill Gawthard's principles And so I needed to correct what I had said. I needed to share where I am now. And so that was what I was really convicted about. And even going into that sharing with my parents that I've grown and I've changed and this is where I am now. I'm going to share this and I hope that you will understand. Does that worry you that that book, I'm sure there's still copies out there.

Like does that ever worry you that people could come across this book and be like well Ginger Dugger said this so. I still get royalty checks every once in a while. It's like you know pennies but I mean it still is like it's funny. It's really funny. I don't worry about it too much because I think it's like a thing of the past and I think that if anybody wanted to see that book I'm like yeah it's a shame that I wrote it but at the end of that book, I'm like, yeah, it's a shame that I wrote it. But at the end of the day, I could only like start from where I am now and move forward.

If you don't mind me asking, like, what does it look like now navigating a relationship with your parents? Like, do you talk to them every X amount of days or like, do you see them at certain events? Like, how does that how does that look now with you living out here in California, which is obviously a lot further away than I you living out here in California, which is obviously a lot further away than I think everyone's back in Arkansas, right? Yeah, it's being far away from family is like, you know, they're always bittersweet things about that, right?

Like I wish I could be there with my sisters when they're all hanging out or whatever. But it's also been healthy for us to just be away and be our own family and grow and learn together. And then like, I will, I will like, we're on a family group message with my family. And so there's always something going on so I can see what my family's up to. I try to call my mom regularly and talk to her and see what she's up to. And then different siblings, like I talk to all of my older sisters often, like we'll just FaceTime

and catch up. Big family dynamics even make that difficult. Like I feel bad that I can't talk to all my siblings all the time. What is that group chat like with 19 kids? It's wild. Two parents? Is there one? That must be, I mean you must be getting the ding every like five minutes on there.

Another grandchild! Yeah, seriously. But I just silence it and then I'll look at it, you know, at the end of the day, I'll see whatever they've posted. But it's like whatever's going on, like the other day, tornado. Tornadoes were going through and so we were just looking at all of the stuff. They're like posting pictures of clouds and like, you know, texting videos of the damage once it came through.

They were all fine, thank the Lord. But like, it's stuff like that, right? Whatever's going on around them, or news articles that pop up, they'll send out, whatever it is. My family's in Missouri, and Abby has been cracking me up because she's pointed out my dad will always send messages about the weather. Some Midwesterners.

You mentioned the tornadoes, I'm like, yeah, we knew about the tornadoes. From the family group chat. Because my dad told us in the family group chat. It's a family group chat thing. Every family group chat has a storm. Are the spouses allowed in the Duggar family group chat thing. Every family group chat has a storm. Are the spouses allowed in the Duggar family group chat? Because then that could really crowd it up.

It's huge, yes. So the spouses are in it too. Yeah, well, they have tons of them. So we have a girls one, there's a workout one that I'm on. There's the big family one. So they have- Everything you need right there. Yeah, there are so many. There are so many group chats. I can't keep up with all them. But yeah, it's just another way to like kind of stay in touch

with what's happening over there. So yeah, it's good. It's good. I keep having this intrusive thought about you having a J name as well being a Jeremy Jeremy. And there's not a Jeremy. No, there's Jeremiah. Okay. Close. So that's too close. Yeah, close.

Wow, that is crazy. You have a J name that is not involved. It's a J name. You looked out and you're like, I like this girl. And it's like, oh, you have a J name? You're in. Totally. Totally.

That's why I gave you some money. It would start to get weird if all the other brother-in-laws had J names. That would be a little weird. I am curious, do you know why your parents, was it just because they liked all J names? Well, they started out and they had my oldest brother, they named him with J and then the twins were next and they named them Jana and John. And then after that, they thought, well, if we just have one more kid, we don't want them to be left out.

So it started out because they thought it was cute for the twins to have matching names. And then all this already had J name and then Jill was next. So they couldn't leave Jill with like Sally, you know, like, well, that'd be that was so good. They thought if they just had one more kid and then that just continued a question that's been in the back of my brain for like 45 minutes now, because I meant to ask it earlier because we were talking about Bob Gothard and I was like, wait a second. I'm sorry, I just called Bob. Bob.

Bob. Bob. Bob. Bob. Okay, you literally met, you met Bill, right? Like he came over to your house when you guys were kids. Yeah, he knew, he knew who we were. So we were like friends.

That is crazy. Yeah. That like, because I'm, I think of this guy, obviously he started this massive movement and so the fact that you had him over at your house, that was just like, whoa, okay. Yeah. I have it in my journal. Oh yeah, I was looking at my journals recently too and I realized I wrote down in my kid journal that he came and played foosball with me and I think I lost

it. Did I lose to him? Like playing foosball? It was like a big thing. You said you did lose. You said it in your book. Did I write it in the book too? Yeah. You wrote it in the book. That's right. I did. That's why I had it out too. I was reading it. But I played foosball. See, my memory now, we would just interact because we would go to his headquarters for like girls retreats and stuff and then we would talk to him we'd see him at conferences and I think because my family was like poster family for the IVLP for a while

Then we had a closer relationship with him. Is it still around? Are they still having conferences? Yes, they still have conferences. Bill Gothard's not He's not like over it now, but they definitely still have conferences going on. I assumed that it was over. Like I watched the documentary, Shiny Happy People, and I assumed that this was something of the past. No. So wow.

It's heyday, it's heyday is past. Yeah, but it's still going. It's interesting because you'll see movements like that in evangelicalism where like the heyday of filling stadiums is gone, now they're fledgling and struggling financially, but the influence of those ideas permeates. And so a lot of people today would be really influenced by those ideas and have no idea of the formal introduction.

So they wouldn't know his name, but they think the way he thinks because it's permeated churches or whatever. And you're and you mentioned your diary something that really struck me in your book was the fact that someone like put it on eBay or something and trying to sell it. Wild story so this was back whenever the show was like in its peak stage and we would often just have random people come visit us. They would like email and they would say, can we come visit?

And so often it was families. Sometimes it was just individuals that would like watch the show and they would email us and we'd just have them over for tater tot casserole dinner. And it was great, you know, so we had lots of random people that would just come into our home, take it like always giving house tours. And then there was one time, it was like over the 4th of July, we had quite a few people who wanted to come visit us. And one of them was this girl, and she said she was like a college student and wanted

to just come see our family. And so my parents were like, well, you can come on the fourth because we're going to have like a lot of people have a big party. So she shows up and somebody gave her a house tour and she had a backpack with her most of the day. And she when she went on the house tour, I guess she just stole my diary out of my nightstand. And so, yeah, she took it, and it wasn't until a couple months later that somebody emailed my dad,

like one of our friends was like, hey, I think that Ginger's diary is on eBay. And he was kind of like laughing, because they were like, yeah, and it's like up for $100,000. And so he called me upstairs, page over the intercom, and I ran upstairs, realized like, oh my goodness, I'm so mortified, it's my diary.

I was not mortified because the details, the content was nothing was private that should be kept secret. It was my handwriting. My handwriting was awful. They opened it up to the page where I had like written with very sloppy handwriting and then I like Blacked out a section and then below was like the worst looking handwriting ever And so I was mortified, you know, it was like what I don't know like a 14 year old when I saw this

And that was from when I was younger. And so I was like, how could they get that one? How could they get that diary? But we ended up figuring out who it was and told her she had to send it back. And she did. Well, eventually, yeah. Or she would be prosecuted. Oh, you're like, it took a little bit more.

She wouldn't send it back at first, yeah. And then she's like, okay, I'll send it back. And the paper cup I drank out of, do you want that too? Like, little attitude. And she stole another book out of, she stole a book out of our book cabinets with doors on them, just a random biography she took. So she sent that back too.

That is so weird. Bizarre, and then, get this, she emails us later and she says, okay, I would actually like to come back to your house because I wanna bring a busload of people back who are just like me. What would you say? I would say heck to the no is what I would say. Yeah, so she said she could stay on the couch though.

Are these people in prisons? She said she could sleep on the couch. Are these a bunch of thieves that you met while you were stealing books? This person is so old. I know. People just like me and we were like, no. Double pass. So most of the people we met over that time were really cool and nice. It was kind of interesting having strangers in our house all the time.

But yeah, that was just life before the gate at the front of my family's house. Like we didn't have gates so people would come down the driveway and knock on our front door. It was interesting. Because it doesn't seem like you made much money from the show. Have you considered re-putting up the diary on T-Bag? Yeah, 100 grand. For 100k. I couldn't think about it. Well, with inflation, let's move it up a little. 200k. You could probably get 250. I don't know if there was any bids though. Are there any bids on it? No way, that was so insane.

But it was hilarious, yeah. Get a laugh out of it now. Then it was creepy, it just felt like such an invasion of privacy that was happening. Creepy not knowing who took it for a while, that kind of scared us. Okay, so obviously I think it's clear. Like who can we not trust?

Yeah, totally. I think it's clear that you guys probably won't have 19 kids, but where are you at now with that? Where are you on the topic of children? Because you have two right now. I said three and a half is a long time. I know. Three and a half and then we have a five-year-old.

She's gonna be six soon and yeah, we're talking about it. So we've thought like initially I think we said three to five kids. But now we're like, okay, we think maybe three, two or three. So yeah, we'll let y'all know. We'll let y'all know. Felicity has been drawing a lot recently and she drew a little picture of our family and it was mom dad her Evy and a little brother brother she was singing a song in the car yesterday all about brother she was like an Evy and mommy and daddy in our

little brother and I was like oh no we better you know something we don't know you better get rid of that painting though it could end like, oh no. Does she know something we don't know? You better get rid of that painting though, because it could end up happening. Oh no, go home and burn it. Call the babysitter now. Burn it. That's so true, man. I wouldn't mind a little.

I don't know, yeah, we'll see what happens. Boys are really fun. Is there one person that's like, let's keep having kids, and then there's someone else who's like let's not Just about like yeah, we'll just we'll just see yeah, like we don't know yeah We're just enjoying the stage though. The kids are so much fun. This is such a sweet stage with them I love that. Yeah, that's sweet. Well, we're so happy for you guys You just seem you seem like you've got things figured out.

You both are so- So wise. You're so good at speaking. Sorry to interrupt you. You're so good at speaking. Oh, I interrupted you. Both of you. You can keep talking. I'm just saying, I'm inspired by you guys.

You seem very wise and you've handled everything with so much grace and class and I think it's admirable. That's kind of you. Well, thank you guys so much grace and class and I think it's admirable. That's kind of you. Well, thank you guys so much for having us. Because it didn't have to be that way, right? Like you said, drama sells and it gets clicks and everything and I think that you've really kept big picture and what you ultimately want. That's super great for you guys and thanks for having us on.

Of course. You guys are so cool down there. I hope we accomplished this goal but I'm pretty sure you said that you didn't do the Shiny Happy People documentary because you didn't want to be misconstrued or something. So my goal is that your voice is heard the way that you want it to be heard through this episode. So I hope we accomplish that today.

Yes, you did. Thank you so much for letting us share. Of course, of course. Yeah, well thank you guys. Let's get lunch. Go get their book. Check out their book. You can listen to it on 2X speed

if you want to be crazy like me. Or read it. I guess you could read it too. Yeah, yeah. It's becoming free indeed. And it's anywhere books are sold. You can get the audio book or yeah, just hard copy. And where can people find you guys on social media?

Is that something you're posting to? Yeah, we're on social media. I'm at Ginger Volo. I don't know if you say at anymore. Ginger Volo on social media and I'm at Ginger Volo. I don't know if you say at anymore. Ginger Volo on social media and then Jeremy. Yeah, I think I have an underscore in there. Underscore. All right, we're gonna go get some lunch. Thanks for watching everybody.