The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby - Joy Duggar on Reflecting on Her Duggar Childhood, Courtship & Postpartum Depression

Episode Date: October 16, 2024

Joy Duggar Forsyth & Austin Forsyth reflect on Joy's upbringing in the Duggar family and the challenges of courtship. They candidly discuss postpartum depression, share insights from reading Jill and Jinger’s books, and explore how their experiences have shaped their lives together. This episode is sponsored by Liquid IV, Article, Lume and Hiya. Liquid IV: Get 20% off your first order of Liquid I.V. when you go to https://LiquidIV.com and use code UNPLANNED at checkout. Article: Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit https://article.com/UNPLANNED and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. Lume: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @lumedeodorant and get 15% off with promo code UNPLANNED at https://LumeDeodorant.com! #lumepod Hiya: Go to https://hiyahealth.com/UNPLANNED and receive 50% off your first order. Get your kids the full-body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's betterH-E-L-P.com. It all came just crumbling down postpartum. My family had a lot of struggles at that time, and then these books come out. I came to a point where I was just like,

what do I believe? Like, what is even real? Your mom literally had how many different pregnancies? Because there was a couple twins in there. Well, there's two sets of twins, but she also had a stillbirth with her last. So it would have been like 18 pregnancies. This is so crazy.

I totaled my truck. It was bad. I'm crying, holding his arm. My brother that comes with my dad is like, Pops, Joy has been holding on to Austin's arm this whole time. They're courting, they're not supposed to even be holding hands.

We sat down with Joy Duggar Forsyth and Austin Forsyth from the hit TV show, 19 Kids and Counting. As a Duggar, Joy grew up following the teachings of IBLP, which didn't allow her to wear pants or even hold hands with her boyfriend. In a recent YouTube video, she opened up about how reading her sister Ginger's book changed her perspective on her faith.

We talk about all this and so much more in today's episode. Hey, real quick, I don't wanna take much of your time. I just, first of all, wanna thank you guys for being here. Abby and I have put a lot of work into making this show happen, and the fact that we're at over 80 episodes now, we're nearing 100 episodes.

Holy cow, that means a lot. Thank you to everyone that has been here since the beginning. And if you're new here, welcome. We are so happy you're here. If you could just leave us a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify podcasts, that would mean the world to us. We're still trying to get the word out about the show.

We're hoping that these episodes are able to impact your life in some way because we're just inspired. We're just getting started. There's so many people that have come up to us and said, wow, Abby, when you opened up about how hard postpartum was after your birth, thank you for doing that because it really changed me. Hearing people come up to us and just, I don't don't know, be like real about how the podcast has

impacted their life. It really means a lot to us. We appreciate you guys. Now back to the episode. What's up, dude? And welcome back to the unplanned podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much for being here you guys. Seriously. Yeah. Thank you guys for having here, you guys. Seriously. Oh yeah, thank you guys for having us. I kind of wanted to just jump right in because I want to know more about your love story. I think like it's so cool hearing about the courting process because like we got married young but that was something that we never did.

And I know I noticed Joy you had opened up on your YouTube channel about how like did you want your kids to court one day? And so I just know, I thought it'd be kind of interesting just to hear more about what courting was like for you guys and just your, yeah, your love story. Yeah. Okay, well, it starts a long time ago, over 20 years ago now.

Yeah. Not really, but we met, so I was four and he was eight when we originally met, like our families. I have no recollection of that, obviously, but his family had moved from Texas at the time and moved to Arkansas and started coming to my family's church. And then we kind of saw each other on and off until...

Yeah, same homeschool events or whatever. We would see each other on and off throughout the year. Yeah. And then once you got your driver's license Same homeschool events or whatever. We would see each other on and off throughout the year. Yeah. And then once you got your driver's license is when we started seeing each other a lot more. Yeah. And he would come up and play like flag football

with my brothers, whatever. Like we had- Oh, nice. Like once a week they would play football or we had this sport called broom ball that we would play once a week. And so he would come up and I would see him there. And I don't remember actually like, oh, there's Austin. That's, I like him.

Was it because I was around so much? Yeah, well, because you started coming around. And then also like I was, I had just turned 13 at this time. Or I was 13, almost 14 at this time. And so I remember like meeting you, knowing who your family was around that time, and then at 14, I started crushing hard on you. And I was like, I remember Jill actually telling me one time,

because I was like, I just like him so much, and whatever, and she was like, I was like, how do you know it's the one? She was like, I don't know. She was going down this list of things, and I was talking's the one? She was like, I don't know. She was like, she was going down this list of things and I was talking to her and she was like, well and like can you imagine your life without him? I was probably 15 at this point and I was like,

I just, I can't imagine my life without Austin in it. Just cause he was around and I think it's probably like the teenage whatever but I just felt so sure that at like someday I was gonna end up with him. And and and he didn't I don't think he ever knew that I was Anyway, so I mean I'm 18 right she's Yeah, and I'm hanging out with her older brother John who's what he's 22 Yeah at the time's what, he's 22 at the time? Or yeah, he's 22 at the time and I'm 18 and so. He was oblivious that I had existed.

You weren't even paying attention to her, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, the legit story of like, I'm over here, you don't even know I exist. Yeah, I knew she existed, I knew who I knew who she was but not on my radar Obviously at all because I would have been weird So wait, when did she become on your radar when did you start to notice her? Okay? That is a yeah, that's a long story

So I was 21 and I had been interested in this other girl. And he had been talking to me and Ginger and Jana about this other girl that he was going to go ask. Oh snap! Talking to you about it? Yes. And I was 17 at this point, right? Yeah, so at that time, yeah, I'm 21. I was close with John, her brother, and some of her other younger ones, but mainly John.

And we were in flight school together, John and I. And it was kind of, I don't know, it was kind of weird, but Jana, well, okay, so I was flipping houses at the same time. Single, you know, my dad was in construction, and so I started flipping houses when I was 17, and one of them was in Springdale, somewhat close to where they lived, and so her brothers would come over

and help me on projects, whatever. I was laying floor, they'd come over and help me lay floor, help me do stuff. Well, she would come over and help me on projects. Whatever, I was laying floor, they'd come over and help me lay floor, help me do stuff. Well, she would come over as well. I gladly offered my services. My dad taught us how to lay tile, all of that, growing up. So I was like, oh, you're tiling your bathroom? I'll come over and I'll help you.

Aw. And so, yeah, just to spend time with them. So, Jana and her and Ginger, it was time where like we were all close, right? And so I'm telling them about this girl that I wanna like start dating down in Texas. And I was fully supportive. I was like, that's so good for you, I'm so happy. And he crushed on the inside like,

okay, maybe this isn't gonna happen. So, fast forward, that didn't happen. And, yeah, and so I was at a place in my life where I had spent a year, like, kind of definitely mentally pursuing this girl. Her brother out of the blue invites me to go to flight school. He's like, hey man, why don't you come down and go to flight school with me? He had already been through his private and some other certifications.

He's like, hey, why don't you come get your private pilot's license? I was like, all right, I guess I ain't got anything else going on. I'll come and do that. And so at that point, I was at a place in my life where I was like, you know what, I'm tired of just kind of spending my wills and like, I wasted so much I'm tired of just kind of spinning my wheels and like I wasted so much time and energy and thought in this relationship that I wanted to work out didn't work out and I'm just I'm ready for something new and so while I'm at flight school long story Wow, it's almost over while I'm at flight school One day I get out of bed, I'm sitting there and the thought comes in my mind,

well what about Joy? And I'm like, nah, she's way too young. Like, no, this, no. And like I just said, I'm not gonna be distracted by other things, like, nah, nah. And so, long story short, she was all I could think about I'm at flight school Literally trying to learn how to fly airplanes and the only thing I can think about is what about joy I think for me it was a place of contentment that I needed to be in my life. Yeah, and so

Didn't tell us okay. So on my side is like I'm 17, almost 18 at this point and Well you were, cause this is December. I just turned 18. You just turned 18. Okay. So I, at this point I'm like talking to my parents every night, my mom, my dad, and like I just like, I feel like I'm gonna marry this guy,

I don't know what to do, like, and my dad's like, well I don't know if it'll ever happen, cause we knew him growing up, my dad's like, well I don't know if it'll ever happen because we knew him growing up. My dad knew whatever, and he didn't want to get my hopes up for something. And so I'm talking to them, but I'm the same way. I'm like, I literally cannot stop thinking about him.

And that's like, I wanna get married tomorrow. And I had not shown interest. I really tried to not be that girl that's pursuing him and throwing myself at him because I'm like, what if he's not? I don't want to ruin our relationship because we were good friends at this point. We were talking, he would share stuff

that he was going through. So I feel like we both kinda came to that point at the same time, unknowingly, that we were both just thinking about each other, God is this what you have for us, but none of us knew that the other person was thinking the same thing. Yeah.

So anyway. Did your parents like Austin when you brought up Austin? I was like? Not really. Well, so here's the thing. So here's the thing. They've known me since I was eight years old. And I went through a little bit of a rebellious time for several years.

And so. He's a little bit of a wild card. Well, in our circle. Yeah, in our circles. I mean? Yeah in secular worlds, not at all He was a little bit wild started listening to like acdc and kiss on the weekends. Yeah, oh not just country music Oh just yeah, just yeah, that was enough. Oh country music. It was like considered like no, don't listen

Oh, okay. Yeah, that's what because because I thought Coach of Music was wholesome. Like my mom always told me, she was like, man, this is so wholesome and the storytelling, it's beautiful, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so. Yeah. Okay. Pop too, I listen to pop and whatever.

Okay. So if we want to get a little bit of that. Some Adler Bean, some Room 5 in there. Pop fan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So they didn't like your music choices? Well, no, they had no clue about my music choices.

No, yeah, not about that. They didn't know anything about music choices? Well, no, they had no clue about my music choices. They didn't know anything about that. He was hanging with the wrong crowd, which they were, I mean, yeah, they're friends now or their lives are torn apart. The ones that you had hung out with back then. Yeah, a lot of them. So and you could, yeah. Well, I, yeah, I assume that I don't- He just had a few years that that he was the rebellious one in the circle. And I didn't really fit the mold of the conservative homeschool kids, right? I didn't have a shirt tucked in, a spell pulled tight. When we would go swimming, I'd take my shirt off. I know that seems totally natural, like, well, why wouldn't you, okay? But the world in which she grew up in is like,

you swim fully clothed. Like in a dress, yeah. Well, yeah, the boys didn't wear dresses, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, not for the boys. Wait, but boys wore, you had to wear a t-shirt as a boy? Oh, t-shirt, blue jeans, no shorts. Wait, blue jeans and swimming in a pool? Now, they loosened up, but yeah, we used to,

my brothers would wear jeans for the longest time until probably the last, I don't know, 10 years maybe. Okay. Wow, okay, let's elaborate on that because I'm just so fascinated now. So even, because I knew that women had to wear a dress or girls had to wear a dress or something to go swimming, but I know that the guys had to wear

full on blue jeans and a shirt. Hey, at least they were consistent with girls and boys. Yeah, at least they were. My parents, and I think that's a lot of it, like once we, I don't know, I feel like they were, they had the standard because they didn't want guys showing their thighs, and so they were like, okay, and girls either, and so they were like shorts are kind of on the line and so my brothers until like Probably until I was 15 16 they didn't wear shorts So I was probably a huge imp like I was I was a huge impact on the boys especially today Taking their shirts off and wearing shorts. Oh cuz you were like the one homeschool kid that yeah

Yeah, like when I was over there, it's like swim time like shirt comes off and then it's like there were times That you were like respectful and you're like, okay another family Oh, they like told you I'm not gonna do that Yeah, you were like the one kid that was like he's the one that's not wearing blue jeans and a t-shirt in the pool Like yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah, so I was kind of that kid right? Okay, so Sounds like you were just crazy To you it'd be I'd be like that guy's kind of normal

I'm not normal, but yeah, so yeah, he's known at this point He's known me for like what 15 years or something So yeah, he's known he at this point he's known me for like what 15 years or something So it's almost easier having a clean slate a guy walking in with the clean slate. I had it easy, right? I think he did I think all the professional soccer players They had because they didn't I think so I mean account for everything since he was eight years old. Yes Yeah, like there's just a lot more dirt that can be had on somebody if you've known them for since they were a child.

So I think that's, I think that is the answer to that is like why it's like, eh. How did you convince him then? Or wait, how did this even come to be? Because you're both in your own worlds like crushing on each other thinking about a relationship but you haven't crossed paths yet in that way. Well, your dad, right? Yeah, so I just kinda kept it hush hush, and I just prayed about her for like two months.

We see each other on a weekly basis, and at this point we started going to church together again. Yeah, yeah, y'all started coming to the church we were going to. And so we were seeing each other like three times a week, at least, if not more. Yeah, and so I just, like to the church we were going to. And so we were seeing each other like three times a week, at least, if not more. Yeah. Gotcha. And so I just, like, I never, like, flirted with her.

I just wanted to, like, keep it... I felt like I jumped the gun and just was immature in the previous way I pursued this other girl. And so I just was like, I just want to... I'm not in a hurry. Like, I just want to really take my time on this. Thank you to Liquid IV for sponsoring this portion of today's episode.

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That's 20% off your first order when you shop better hydration today using promo code unplanned at liquidiv.com. So I prayed about it for a couple of months and I was praying some very specific things So I was I was asking the Lord that he would Lay it on my dad's heart, which probably sounds may sound weird. I don't I don't know I don't know y'all's background necessarily and if I if I'm sound like a complete weirdo

So I was I was asking specifically That God would lay it on my dad's heart and I just really value his opinion and his Outlook and like I just really I wanted his blessing and and Yeah, so I just I wanted his kind of old-fashioned, you know, just want my dad's blessing, one of her parents' blessing on the deal. And so after two months of praying, me and my dad are riding around in the farm truck fixing barbed wire fences.

And I was like, you know, if God hasn't put it on his heart at this point, then I've probably missed it and I'll just, I'll reevaluate. So I was like, yeah, let me ask you a question. Do you think there's anybody that I should be pursuing? Like, you know, I've been flipping houses, whatever, kind of doing this, am I missing something? Like, do you see something in my life, basically, that I should be doing that I'm not doing?

And do you think there's a girl, maybe, that, you know, I'm 22 at this point? Yeah, 22, like, do you think there's a girl I might be, might, should be pursuing? And he was like, I named off a couple. And he was like, I named off a couple. And he was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, none of those girls. I was like, okay, well, what do you think, Dad?

And this is what he said. He said, you're going to think this is really weird, but God's really laid joy, dug her on my heart, and I think you should start praying about her. And I was like, well, I have been praying about her, and I've been praying specifically that God would lay her on your heart and that I have been praying about her and I've been praying specifically that God would lay her on your heart and that you'd be praying about her. So um. Wow. Which is just so crazy because I knew him but I did not spend a lot of time with his

parents at this point. Like I saw them every once in a while. I would go out to their farm and work. They have a family camp that his family runs and they have like shooting ranges and stuff so I would help with like activities at the family camp or the youth camps or whatever that they do and So that would be like a couple times a year I would see his parents every once in a while and then sometimes at church I'd run into him but for his dad to say that is

Is crazy. I I obviously thought it was providential. And so at that point I was like, okay, I think I'm getting serious about this. And so I went and talked with her dad. And him and I, this is, in our circles, obviously if you're pursuing the girl, then the dad kinda calls the shots. And he may be totally hands off, or he may make you

jump through a bunch of hoops. If the girl wants to follow her dad and have him involved in it, right, she could kinda rebel and just go off and do her own thing. But if she wants her dad's blessing and whatever, in the circle, it's kind of like the dad gets to call the shots. And so we started talking for a couple of months.

Were you nervous for this conversation? You know, I was nervous, but I had such a confidence that this is what I was supposed to be doing. Like, it was kind of like, all right, Jim Bob, when are you gonna get on board? Because like, I know where I'm heading so the quicker Was it was it clear at that time that you guys were both interested in each other but the courting hadn't started? Oh, you both didn't know that you both liked each other. No, that's so I'm so I'm talking to Jim Bob for like

Probably a month and a half and then he finally is like hey I probably should tell you that Joy actually really likes you and like she's really interesting. He didn't tell you for how long, but yeah, he said basically it goes both ways. What was this conversation like? Were you calling him on the phone? Did you even know this was going on? A phone call every day?

No, I was going over there. I had no idea that this was going on. That's crazy. Over at the house. Was this once a week? Once a week. Okay. Once a week we were meeting. They had like a set up crazy. Over at the house. Was this once a week? Once a week. Okay.

Once a week we were meeting. They had like a set up time. I had no idea. Was he more on the strict side or is this pretty typical? Well I was still, I was just 18. Okay. So at this point I think he,

it wasn't like some of my other sisters that had gotten married in their early 20s or whatever. Yeah. And he knew where I was so I don't think he wanted to tell me anything until he knew that something might be happening. Just for my heart's sake. And so, yeah, I didn't know until he,

one night he called me, my dad was like, hey Joy, I wanna talk to you, and he's like, I just wanted to let you know that Austin has come and asked if he can get to know you, like more than a friend. And I just remember like, are you kidding me? Or are you serious? Like what, like I didn't know if he was joking with me

and I just started bawling. Because this had been four years at this point that I had like been talking about him, talking to my sisters about him. Watching me go pursue other girls. Yeah, and trying to be supportive of him. Yeah, anyways, and so I just remember I was so excited, but also at that point I was like,

wait, do I want this to happen? I don't know if I wanna marry this guy, or go in courtship to get married eventually And so all the emotions That must have been really hard to to see him pursue another girl when you've been crushing on him for What at that point three years was it? It was hard But at the same time I I think we had that friendship that I wanted what was best for him And so if that's what's best for him, I want that. But yeah, it was definitely hard.

I had no clue that she had interest in me. And I'm not like completely oblivious, like you know what I mean? Like some guys like, I wasn't completely oblivious, but she did a really good job of not flirting with me. Well I didn't wanna make it weird. Yeah. I didn't wanna make our friendship weird.

And so I just tried to, yeah, treat you like I would any other guy. Yeah. Did you have, I learned from talking with Ginger and Jeremy that there's kind of like a checklist of things that Jim Bob runs you through. So when did that meeting happen?

Tell me about that meeting with Jim Bob. That was pretty early on in our conversations where he gave me that list and wanted me to fill it out. And man, I think the questions in the list, a lot of them were good. Just figuring out where somebody is with their religious beliefs and finances and family planning and just different stuff like that. And so maybe some of it really doesn't like the father-in-law, like maybe not any of his business.

But I mean, there's like, have you ever, you know, been arrested? Have you ever whatever? And so he knew all that. You know, I mean, like he knew a lot of that kind of stuff. So had you been arrested before? No. Wow. Still to this day. Still to this day Man I have had one ticket for an improper display of a license plate. Oh, brutal.

So it's not a speeding ticket? Yeah, it's not a speeding ticket. I do get pulled over for speeding. Sorry to cut you off, that was my ADHD showing. But back to the questionnaire though. Yes, I did fill out one and, yeah, submitted it to him. That was pretty early in our conversations, if I remember. I wanna know how many men have been disqualified

based on this questionnaire that your dad has issued. See, that's where I'm like, I don't know. I feel like, I feel like they're, that's which we've talked about this and I think every, my parents have said too, like I want, they've said, you know, we're gonna have these, you know, the way we parent, but we want to be kind of a stepping stool for y'all

and y'all figure out what, do it better than us is what they've told us. And so I feel like that's one thing that I'm like, I appreciate the idea behind it. I think I would tweak it some because like he said, any guy can come in and be like oh I know like especially because we grew up on TV people know like our standards are out there what we allow what we don't allow like what my at least my dad allows it

doesn't allow and so I feel like any guy could have come in and filled out the questionnaire and answered all the right questions and been like oh yeah you're good to go like you've you filled all out, you know what to say, you know not to say. So I don't know. I think that's a good point. Like imagine how many guys reached out to the family, whatever,

whether it was the girls or Jim Bob or whatever to date his daughters. Like, I don't even know what the number is. Hundreds of hundreds of hundreds of guys. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I was actually just going through, well, I don't even know what the number is. Hundreds of hundreds of hundreds of guys. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I was actually just going through, well since we moved a couple weeks ago,

I was going through all my boxes and I had my keepsake boxes and I had letters in there from when I was like 16, 17. Guys from like jail or guys from just random jail. Yes! Yes! And my mom obviously would read them first because she's like, this is weird,

but then we'd be all laugh about it. But like guys asking to court me and like one guy like, I'm sure his mom wrote it, but it was like cursive handwriting and like this whole long letter about how like good he is an option for me and God's telling him that I should marry him, all this kind of stuff. Wild.

So wait, hold up though, tell me more about this. Like, what's the most unique one you've had? Cause you said someone wrote you from jail. Like, they were literally in jail. So, I only have one from jail. And it was like, it had a picture. How many do you have? How many do you have?

No, but some of my older sisters, they have multiple. And like, these guys from prison would be watching and then write letters and you would see like so and so. They want to clear up their life. Yeah from the Florida State Penitentiary with their number. Yeah they would ask to like be your pen pal if they didn't ask to marry you but yeah some of my sisters have quite a few. Did they ask for your hand in marriage from? I mean they're probably like so down bad that they're just like, what can I do?

The guy that wrote me I think was asking just to be a pen pal. But I'm pretty sure Jana has a couple that were like, I wanna marry you or you're my forever soulmate, like that kind of stuff. Dang. Yeah, it's crazy. That is wild, I would have never thought of that.

And back then, when it first started it was weird, but then back then it was like, oh, you got another one. Like it was just somewhat normal. Somewhat normal. Did you ever entertain a conversation with this guy who had very nice cursive handwriting and wrote you a letter? No, I didn't write it back. Is that bad?

That's not bad. Did you ever write anybody back? No. Anybody back? No? No, I was a really bad pen pal. I did not enjoy book reading or writing. So it was really bad.

Even the people I love, I would just email them back. Just email them back. That's wild. I didn't realize how many men were sending an application. Yeah. Anywhere we went, I went on quite a few different vacations and just different stuff with the family even as a single guy before I was even interested in her and like literally everywhere we went guys are approaching Jim Bob like hey

can I talk to your daughter or like you know if we went on a vacation somewhere I'm just it was crazy so I think he it was kind of vetting process that he had. I don't know. Wow. Is there anything similar for the guys, like for the sons? Or is he just expecting the daughter's dad to vet their sons?

Not really, yeah, normally the daughter's dad would, however, like whatever her rules are normally is whatever all the rules would be. Huh. Interesting. So your dad wasn't as involved in those courtships? Your brother's courtships as much as he was?

Yeah, they've been very different, yeah. Okay. Yeah, my brother's, so it depends. I mean, I think they obviously have the, they have like some ground rules. Like, this is what we don't want y'all to do, but I think anything past that, like any standards, any whatever lines not to cross would be

set by the girls parents. So my brothers are pretty, they vary a wide variety of how their relationships went. Thank you to Article for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. I cannot tell you how much joy it brings me to come downstairs in the morning in our little breakfast nook. We have our new Article table. It completely transformed our space. It did, it made it so much more cozy and homey. I love the chairs. They're great for children. I swear their little fingers always have stuff on them and they'll swipe it on that upholstery. You don't see it. They're also very comfortable. And the look of them is like the perfect balance of cozy meets modern, which is my ideal style.

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on the next TV episode like, yeah, that Austin guy really sucks. He broke Joy's heart and now we should cancel him. Did that freak you out? It did and I think that because this is obviously when the show is still blowing and going, right? So I think that's why Jim Bob wanted to have a month and a half relationship with me, right?

Before, to see how real it is and just, you know what I mean? Because, yeah, to introduce a guy onto your family's TV show and then next season or next episode he's gone, like gone Like just don't want that constant drama of you know news well what happened to such and such and this yeah, whatever It's messy. Yeah, and so he I don't I don't blame him at all for wanting to like the guys that came like Let's nail it down. We keep everything quiet like You know, we want to make sure between me and him like this is really something that potentially is gonna happen before anybody else finds out about it. I mean we didn't have anything similar really to

a courtship at all but like from an outside perspective I can look at that and be like it's really cool that you had someone that was not like emotional at all about the decision really. Like I mean granted he was your father's like, he's biased and like wants to take care of you. But like to be like, okay, well, you know, even just like the basic stuff is like, oh, well you want multiple children

or like she doesn't like, I don't know, just to like look at it in a black and white aspect. Like that is kind of nice. Yeah, did you like having- Like anything that's like gonna be a deal breaker, it's like already out, like, it's like, oh, well, we're not gonna mess with your heart and emotions. Well, I'm curious since you guys have opened up

about not having your kids go through the same courtship process you went through, are you thankful for it? Like, do you wish there's things you could change about how the process went for you, or do you think it was the best thing that you guys needed at the time? I am a big believer in it's not what happens to you, it's what you, how you like respond to it.

And so I feel like we would not be the same people that we are for if in any life circumstances that happens to us, it's made us the people that we are. And so we can't change that. And so I, I mean, there's really like not any, I mean, I'm sure you can chime in on this too, but for me, I don't think that there's anything else that I would change because all of those things, yes, there were things that were hard about it that I'm like, I'm not gonna do that,

but I wouldn't change it because I've grown from that, I've learned from it. And I'm like, okay, well, what am I gonna do different with my kids? What am I going to do the same?, well, what am I gonna do different with my kids? What am I going to do the same? Like, or what can I tweak from this? And so, yeah, there are definitely things

that we will change, but I'm not upset about it at all. And obviously you can't change the past, but at the time, did it feel too legalistic? Like, did it feel like weird that you needed to have a third person with you guys at all times, no matter what? Did that infringe on your connection at all? Um, not for me anyways, because I guess having a chaperone with us or all the standards that we had, that was all I ever knew.

And so I knew once we ended the courtship, these are the standards that we're going to have and I don't know about for you, but for me, that was an obvious, I think once we got into engagement I was like, okay, we could let up a little bit, like this is a little bit much, but there were a few things that I was like, I mean, you know, the little brother or the older brother that would be like, hey daddy, they are, they're, they're side hugging for too long and I'm like, oh my word. Was that a thing? Did you guys side hug for too long? Oh, I mean, yeah. Are there rules for that? I like oh my word. Was that a thing? Did you have a side hug for too long? Oh I mean yeah. Are there rules for that? I totaled my truck. I totaled my truck. Okay yeah. This is one of the scenarios. Austin was coming from his camp. I was in front of him in my own car. We were coming from

my parents house. Okay yeah so his parents house we were all headed back home. I was in my car. He was in his car and I'm driving before him, so I'm driving, and I'm probably like five minutes ahead of you. And he gets in a wreck and totals his truck. And so I call. Meth head ran me off the, came in a blind curve in my lane and it was hit the car or take the ditch. And I was in a three quarter ton diesel,

I would have killed who was in the car. Yeah I took the ditch so it was like it was bad like he could have died well and so I call my he calls me and I'm like okay I'll turn around I call my dad I'm like hey can I go over there Austin wrecked and so you know cuz I want to respect the rules at this point like we're not supposed to be without anybody like a chaperone, but you're what 19 at this point? Yeah Probably yeah, no 18 still right? Yeah still cuz yeah, you hadn't turned and probably turned 19 yet. Maybe 19 Anyway, you're engaged. Yeah. No, no not at this point. Are we not quite not quite almost we were waiting We knew that we were gonna get married, but we weren't engaged yet.

That's so fascinating to me for you as a 19 year old to call to ask your dad's permission. Like when I was 19, I was like, I'm gone. See you guys, peace. Yeah, but I was very much, I didn't wanna rock the boat and I never felt the need to. I always wanted to be respectful to my parents and I didn't, like I knew their heart behind it wasn't

hurt me I guess and so for me I I knew that my dad would prefer me to call him so I I call him and he was like hey I'll head over that way you can go it I don't know if I went ahead did I go ahead and go I think I did you know you went on to town I did I waited for him yeah yeah cuz I came in the record so I went to town and then rode back with my dad So I run up give him a big hug Whatever the rest of the time I'm holding on to his arm, which at this point we weren't holding hands yet Oh, we were we were he almost died Yeah, but I'm like I'm so like I'm crying holding his arm it for probably a 10 15 minutes

Well, my brother that comes with my dad is like, Pops, Joy has been holding on to Austin's arm this whole time and they're courting, they're not supposed to even be holding hands. And Pops looks back, kind of like annoyed. I'm like, can I speak with you in the back for a minute? That's what I'm thinking. Pops looks back and he's like, Joy,

you should probably let go of his arm. And I'm like, look at my brother, like so annoyed. But I was like, whatever, it's fine. So anyway, but that's like just scenarios like that where I'm like, can you- It's not the end of the world. You don't have to follow the book on everything. Like, you know my heart behind it.

Yeah. It's not to get away with stuff Like I genuinely was worried about his safety and like if he is he okay and for you though How do you how do you like done this process before like the previous girl? Did you guys ever hold hands or was like this whole courting thing completely new to you? Yeah, so we yeah, we didn't get that far with the other girl. My sister had gotten married like a year before this and they didn't have chaperones. My dad's theory is like if I can't trust you with my daughter right now then why would I trust you with her being her husband and you know whatever.

And so I was around it. Like that was the group that the homeschool group, whatever that we were around, was of that mindset. But my family wasn't necessarily like that. We never had conversations, not one time, of these are the rules, these are what you can do, these are what you can do. But I think dad still, I still knew what his wishes were like in different scenarios and I would have tried to

To honor that I wanted his blessing I think you knew coming in though to our family. Oh, I did. That is what That's just what is expected. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I think it wasn't like oh my goodness. What is this? just what is expected. So I think it wasn't like, oh my goodness, what is this? Yeah, I think if you're a guy and you're like, well that's stupid and I'm not gonna do that. Okay, well you're never gonna marry a douger. And if you're okay with that, then that's fine. So there's certain things that if you want to go through this process, these are the things you have to do. And I knew that going into it. And it was, yeah, it was a hard pill to swallow, like, knowing all that.

Not just that, but the whole, the show and just everything that goes with that. Yeah. So, yeah, I knew what I was getting myself into. I think like the outside looking in, like I'm thinking about our experience. I felt very hands-on and like choosing my husband like at what point like if you're like if your dad's like Oh, like here's this guy like that's interested. He's passed my test Like at what point are you like I approve of this or is it kind of just like this is moving forward before you know What I mean? No, yeah

My parents at least my experience for me and I had talked to some of my other sisters too, but they, my dad and my mom would always, if a guy come talk to him, hey, are you interested in this? And if the girl said no way, but no, like they would say no. That's the end. Yeah, that's the end of it. Or if they said yes, then it would kind of move on slowly.

If my parents had any cautions, they would talk to us about it. They wouldn't just cut it off. So from my experience, that never happened. You had to say, I mean, you could have yes or no. Oh yeah, yeah, I definitely had to say. Would you say that there was a feeling of safety or comfort in knowing that there was such a high standard

for the guys that entered your life. Yeah, I think so. And I guess, I think there's a balance, obviously. And I pray that we are balanced with our kids. I know that I had talked to another friend of mine that she was like, I just wish that my dad even cared who I dated. She's like, I just wish that he would even talk

to my boyfriend before things move forward and not just, hey, can I marry your daughter? She's like, I wish he would have the, even just want to get to know my future husband possibly. And so I think after hearing that, I told my dad, I was like, thank you for even being concerned and being interested. And I think that, I think there could be a balance, but I don't know, I guess I always saw

the positive side of it. Yeah. For me personally. I think it's really cool that you mentioned earlier that your parents said like, here's, like we did the best we can, but do better. Like, see, like basically tweak what you didn't like in this, like in our parenting.

I think that's really, really humble and I don't think a lot of parents have that posture. I can only hope that we would have that posture of their children of like, we're doing everything we can, but like, I know there's areas that we can improve and like, you make it better. Yeah. I took a look at your guys' YouTube channel and it was kind of cool seeing you guys make these family vlogs and these posts and just kind of open up about your story from your perspective and you're the one shaping the narrative, not a TV network that has certain things they want. It was just interesting to see everything from your perspective and something you opened

up about in, I think it was a Q&A, you mentioned reading both of your sister's books Ginger's book and Jill's book and you mentioned something that really made me curious You said that you know talking to them reading their books all that had rocked your world and I wanted to know What you meant by that? Okay. Well, I'll probably get emotional because I always get emotional about this kind of stuff. Um, I so Let's just rewind so with Gunner. I had a super hard postpartum and it was like the darkest time of my life. Anyway, but it was really good but it was super hard and so I feel like I just went through this with the hormone change. You know how it is. Totally. The hormones were super, super hard. And so you're going through postpartum and then I felt like my family was just falling apart. And then a lot of-

Not you and me. No, no, no. Not you and us. But just my, my, yeah, my siblings and my parents and all this stuff was super hard at that time. And so I came to a point where I was just like, what is even real? What do I believe? Like all this stuff. Is it right? Anyway. Now we can take as much time as we want.

Do you have tissue? You can take as much time as you want. Do you have tissue? Totally. You're good. Thank you. Of course. You can just take the whole box. OK. I probably need it.

Anyway, so I came to this point in my life where I was just like, okay, what's, and I think Austin had gone through this earlier when he like kind of went through rebellion and was like, okay, what am I going to believe for myself? What am I going to, and I, you know, he figured that out a lot earlier than I did. But I feel like it was really, it was good and I can see now looking back how much God grew me in that season. But I do feel like Ginger's book specifically was talking about just your faith in God

and taking it from more of like, what can I do what? But really we grew up with so many standards and I was great at keeping all of these standards. And my parents never preached one time that it was you do all these things and then God will accept you. But that's how I took it personally. And so my whole life I was like doing all these things

and my whole Christianity was always a checklist. I gotta read my Bible, check. I gotta pray, check. doing all these things and my whole Christianity was always a checklist. I gotta read my Bible, check. I gotta pray, check. Like all these things and so I feel like it all came just crumbling down when postpartum my family had a lot of struggles at that time and then these books come out and I had to work through these things that I had I I guess I always felt like I'm never going to question God. Like I'm never going to do that. And it was almost prideful of me to say like, oh I'm never going to get to this point in

my life where I will. And then I got to that point and God's like, yeah, you're not perfect and you don't have it all together and your world's falling apart and so what are you gonna do about it? And so it was probably, I mean that was a super hard time for us just because I was out of it and like mentally I just couldn't handle a lot. It was probably a good six, seven, eight, nine months of just, I just had a hard time getting out of bed, had a hard time just doing what I needed to do.

And then spiritually on top of that, it was super hard. And so I feel like Ginger's book, I listened to it and I've talked to her a lot and I had a lot of really good counselors in my life and I went and actually saw a counselor for these issues and that was really good. And just working through and he really encouraged me. He kept saying, don't just ask all these questions and not search for answers.

He's like, if you have these big questions of is God real or does God care about me or bigger doctrinal questions? He's like you need to be proactive and search those out because he's like I want I want you to know for yourself I'm not going to and I really appreciate that about Austin Because I know not everybody has such a supportive husband But he never made me feel like I can't believe you're going through this and I can't believe you're questioning God. It was just, he was constantly there supporting me, wanting me to grow, become a better person, and encouraging me to search stuff out for myself.

And so, anyway, the long answer to that question is I think it really helped me spiritually, taking my faith from a lot of fear-based, that's similar to Ginger's, a lot of fear-based to searching things out for myself and knowing that God loves me no matter what I do or what I don't do. And I'm still, I feel like I'm still, it's a journey and I'm still searching things out, but I got the, I searched in the word, I asked God, I was praying and I feel like God gave me so many areas

of just peace and answering questions in that dark season. Thank you to Lumi for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Do you smell? Because Lumi has a full body deodorant for you. Yes, I mean, and you heard Matt right. It is a whole body deodorant. It was actually created by an OBGYN

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get the clicks. How does that affect you personally? How does that affect your family? Because I don't think many people understand what it's like to have your personal life on display for literally everyone to see. We've kind of created this own little bubble and so we try really hard not to read a lot of comments and

to search news. We know it's out there but we have and we can't control that but we can control what we let in to our minds, our family, and then how it affects us. So we really try to keep a lid on just not letting so much bad into our minds and consuming our thoughts. And there's a balance, right? Because you don't want to be naive to everything that's going on.

But like for instance, everything that's going on, but like for instance, I just, I cannot look at comments on Instagram, or on any social media. I just, I can't handle it. It makes me so mad, and I want to get on there and start being a keyboard Karen. And. Keyboard Karen. And- Keyboard Karen.

That's like Abby's mom. So I can't- Don't even bring it up. Hey, that's my mom. She'll call me. She'll be like, can you believe what they're saying about you? I'm like, mom, I don't even want to know. And don't you get on there and say nothing.

Didn't she at one point like create an account under another name? My dad did. I think it was my dad. They're like, we're gonna have this good comeback just so they could come back at certain comments. I'm like, how do you even know how to do that? It's literally a waste.

It's a waste trying to rebuttal people that literally have nothing better to do than to sit there and criticize and whatever, it's a complete waste of your time. I think there may be somebody that you could respond to and maybe they would be like, oh, well, you're right. Maybe I shouldn't have said that. But that's not been our experience. I think one time we had a lady do that where we commented back and then she direct messaged us and was like, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that. Oh, wow Yeah, and so but that's that's not the norm And so we have to limit what what we led into our lives as far as that's concerned and then he's really good about that

I'm not like I'll be like, okay, I won't read the comments. I know it affects me and she does I won't read the comments, I know it affects me. And she does. Two hours later you're on your phone. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, get off your phone, stop! It's poison, it's letting you know. Yeah, it really is. And on the bigger scheme, like for our family, it's hard.

But then if it's bigger family stuff, like I say bigger family, that's like my parents and all of my siblings. I think it is even,'s it's on a whole other level. It's just because they yeah everything you do if you take a picture and you're not smiling all the way. Oh Joyce whatever. She's miserable she's gonna divorce Austin you know whatever. It's just constantly jumping to conclusions and it it is difficult. Well the other thing I think that's really helped us is we have a really close group of friends at church.

And so we just, like, we don't have to search for that community and that camaraderie. And so, and our our friends they don't They they care less Who we are and so I I think most of them don't even Don't even know what's going on like they they don't know what what the hot topic is in the family or whatever And so surrounding ourselves with those kind of people who are just genuine. We just have genuine relationships It's you know, I think that's really helped us and that's so good those kind of people who are just genuine. We just have genuine relationships. I think that's really helped us.

And I think that's really cool that you have those people that are disconnected from that world, but then sometimes can it feel lonely if it's like, okay, I am public in this, so sometimes I think they're isolating. Yeah, I get, for and this, like so like, I sometimes I can get isolated. Yeah, I get, I, I, for me personally no, because my best friend is Carlin Bates, I don't know, Stuart, anyway,

so I feel like their family had 19 kids as well, like we grew up together, and we're both number nine in the lineup. Oh wow. They have 19 kids, right? And they had a TV show, like it's's a lot of it is similar and so I and I have my siblings too. Yeah. And so I feel like for me it's not as isolating because I have some people that I know that have

some similar like background and yeah know kind of what we're going through. I don't, I've got Jeremy. I'll text Jeremy, he'll be like, bro, that's crazy. Stay off the internet, it's wild. What does the media get wrong about your family? The one thing that comes to my mind that irks me is people are always saying, oh, well your page is controlled by your dad

and your YouTube is controlled by your dad. And that kind of stuff, I'm like, we are our own family. And I can say that, but people are obviously gonna believe what they believe. And so. Well, I'll be honest with you guys, and I feel like I've let headlines construe my view of things too, because I was looking at your YouTube channel

and I saw like this really sweet vlog of your son's birthday party and it was like you guys and your yeah, both your parents were there and it just seemed like everyone was having such a genuine good time. But in my head because of headlines that I've seen about your family, I almost thought like, I don't know, maybe you're not talking to your parents. Maybe you guys don't have a relationship. I have no idea. But then seeing you in this YouTube video just have a genuine fun birthday party together, it really changed my perspective.

Yeah, I think that's just, yeah, that's reality. That's how it is, so. That's kind of the point of our YouTube. Like one of them is to, like if you wanna know what's going on, come and watch our YouTube. Don't look at TMZ or In Touch or whatever. Like watch what we're putting out there. Yeah, because yeah, people all the time,

oh well who's in the feud now? And then they'll have all their speculations and then we'll post a video or something. They're like oh well I guess that wasn't true. And then they write something up the next day. In the media, like when there's a story about You know Ben and Jess are fighting or jessa doesn't look happy or joy, you know gave Austin You know whatever in this picture. She's gonna divorce him that stuff is just

not even accurate and then whatever if there's some other headline of, you know, I think maybe one of the siblings is getting married or something. Like, yeah, sometimes they get it right. Sometimes it's like, okay, who told the media? Like, who told the media Jana's fixing to get married or whatever?

And so there is bits of like, you know, how did that get out? Wait, did that happen with Jana? Like when she was getting married, did someone like with Jana? Like when she was getting married, did someone like leak to the media that she was getting married before? I think so, yeah. Who was it?

Do you guys know who the whistleblower was? We have our suspicions. We have our suspicions. Was it from within the family or outside the family? No, it's outside the family. It's outside the family. Do they get paid for that information? I'm sure somebody does. I would think so.

That's such a weird world to live in where you're like, I have to be careful. It's somebody that had a invitation and they were very... Or got a picture of one. Or got a picture of an invitation. That's too bad. Yeah, and then leaked it. Yeah.

Did they like leak the location and the date and everything? Yeah. That's so wrong. Like it's one thing to leak that Jana's getting married, but then to leak her wedding venue. Yeah. They actually did that. That's so sad.

And we're just regular people, right? We don't have security that follows. You're not Kim Kardashian with 10 security guards around you at all times. But you have to think there are crazies. There are crazies. People that hate our family. Okay, so for instance,

They're crazy. People that hate our family and they're crazy or whatever. For instance, three weeks ago we get a loud knock on the door at 1130 at night and it's Domino's and they said, we got an order for Joy Duggar. Joy Anna Duggar. Not Forsythe, Duggar. That immediately tells me, alright somebody's, and I was like, alright is it paid for? They're like, nope. And I said, okay, was there a message,

or you got a number, who ordered this? They're like, yeah, the message just says, this is for Joyanna Dugger, and knock really loud at the door, at 11.30 at night. So. That's so messed up. Who at Domino's was like, yeah, this checks out, knock really loud.

I guess maybe if someone's not by the door. So, you know, with that kind of stuff, like. And she felt bad, she was like, I'm so sorry. And I was like, I felt bad, I was like, I could pay for the pizza, but she's like, I'll just take it back to the store, don't worry about it. You're so sweet, I'm like.

Yeah, you're so sweet. Well, it happened all the time to my family, like multiple times, people would deliver like stacks of pizza and not pay for it, and so then my parents would just pay for it. People would just show up at the door, babe. People would just like, oh yeah, come hop over the fence, knock on the door and so yeah you know when something like

that gets leaked like Jana's wedding it's like yeah is some crazy gonna come up here and interrupt the whole thing or media or you know what I mean? For all of our weddings like while we were filming the film crew would provide security for the wedding so that nobody like crazy would show up. Because back then we were having 2000 people come to some of my sister's weddings. And so they would provide security just to them. That's good.

Not to fully bad track, but I really appreciated you opening up about how tough things were like after your third, because I know just like from what we've been through, like it's, yeah, the pregnancy hormones are no joke. Like it's very hard for a woman to recover from giving birth, like it's a really big thing. So I guess like, what did you,

I guess what did you like, what did you learn from that experience? Like how did you come out of that? Because from my perspective. And you only experienced that with your third? Yeah, it was only your third, right? Well, my third was the worst. So I had it, I didn't know really with my first

what was happening. But I remember I was like, I'm in a fog. Like I just don't feel myself. And it was probably for six months. So it wasn't bad. Still doing normal life. We were still newly married. I was like, you know, still kind of honeymoon phase.

And then we ended, we actually had a stillbirth after Gideon. And then after I delivered her Annabelle, I had baby blues for probably six months. And it wasn't anything to the extreme that it was this time. And then, Evy was a little bit not too bad. But this one, I think a lot of it was I had just not taken very good care of myself during pregnancy.

And then, like I said, as far as taking vitamins, eating healthy, all of that. So I think my body was just depleted of all the vitamins and minerals that I needed and it gave it to the baby Because I've like even during the pregnancy. I felt just Exhausted all the time and and I had other two kids. I was chasing after But then I think there was just that whole It compiled with all of the other things with and then postpartum and this was the worst that I had ever experienced. So yeah I had I had it a little bit with each kid but nothing to this extreme. You know

what's crazy is before we had Gunner like you were you had a really good place. Right before yeah. Yeah and so it's, yeah, it was kinda weird. I think the nesting mode hit or something. Got my third wind right before I had him. Yeah, but I mean, just like, just physically and mentally, like you were doing good. It's not like we went into it in a low point. Yeah, that's true.

You were doing good. And so it was kinda. Well, and even because we went on a big road trip six weeks after having Gunner, we went out west for like two weeks and I was like still feeling good. So it didn't hit like the postpartum stuff did not hit until probably three months or two and a half months postpartum and then I just like everything crumbled after that and I months postpartum and then I just like everything crumbled after that and I would wish that on no mom but I know a lot of moms go through it and the the thing that probably helped me the most was I was talking to a counselor once a week just talking through a lot of family stuff a lot of spiritual stuff it

was a Christian counselor and just talking about what got me to this point. Or what, and some of it was hormones, but a lot of it was just other things, like I've said. Spiritual things. Yeah, it was a perfect storm. Yeah, it was everything hitting all at once. And so I think the thing that got through, obviously I think working through the things

about what do I believe. And I think that was a lot of it was, I didn't know why things about what do I believe. And I think that was a lot of it was I didn't know why I believed what I believed growing up. I just believed it because that's what we grew up with. And so I came to this point of I'm either going to believe this or I'm not. And that crossroads was a super scary place to come to, you know. And it was scary because like I've never done that. Like I said earlier, I just never was going to be the one that questioned that. I'm married, I have three kids. I kept

thinking I should have it all together. I'm seasoned. I shouldn't be struggling with this. And so I had to work through just from rock bottom, like okay, where am I gonna go from here? I just kinda wanted to sulk in it for a while, but I knew that that was not healthy for our marriage, for my kids. And so that's where talking to a counselor, talking to people at church, talking to other moms that had similar

Situations was super helpful for me and then just taking care of myself because at this point I was eating my kids leftovers I was not I just didn't want to make a healthy meal for myself like I I didn't really care to eat sometimes and so he was taking care of me making meals making sure I was getting the calories in because I'm still nursing and And then it's six months postpartum I decided Okay for my mental health. It's best if I stop because I've not been one that's like Oh, I just love nursing and it's so bonding for me. Like I With Gideon I stopped it three months,

Evie I stopped it six months, and Gunner I think it was like around seven, eight months. But when I stopped nursing and started working out was really, like really, really healthy for me. And then just eating healthier, I saw a huge, drastic change. And just being, really honestly, just being open and honest with people about how I was doing.

Instead of like people in church, how are you doing? Oh, I'm doing great. Yeah, we're doing good. And I'm sure they could see like the devastation and the sadness in my eyes. But I finally got to a point where I was like, I'm not doing good. Like I'm struggling. I'm struggling. Like, do I even want to a point where I was like, I'm not doing good. Like, I'm struggling.

I'm struggling, like, do I even want to be here? Like, and then I even, I had to go even talk to my doctor and be like, hey, this is where I'm at. And it was super hard, but I also wouldn't change that season for anything, because I am today. You know I've grown so much in the last really just six months I've grown so much so I think just taking care of myself he was such a good support through it all and not making me feel bad for going through it but helping me through it and so I don't know I think it was just I was really just fighting

fighting fighting fighting for months and months to feel better. Thank you so much for opening about that I know like it's super hard to be vulnerable especially like I feel like specifically as moms like we want to like nurture and like be an example and have it all together. And it's also a point where it can be scary on such a big scale to like be vulnerable as a mom specifically because they get, you know,

they have that expectation online and specifically for moms. And so like, I really admire you being so vulnerable like that because I know as a mom hearing you speak like there's so many things about your story that I'm like that's an exact parallel and I think so many other moms out there are feeling the exact same way but I was just ashamed to like admit that yeah and I wish I would have gotten gotten help sooner and just been more open and been more because I feel like it wouldn't

have gotten to that point of I don't even want to be here. I feel like if I would have just before I kept going down that that road I wish I would have just gone and talked to somebody. Gone and talking to the counselor sooner like just been open and real with people where I was and how I was doing because I feel like it wouldn't have gotten that bad. When life is so hard like that, how did you bring yourself to go seek out a counselor? Was that something that you decided on your own? Was that something that Austin was like, hey, I think you need to consider this? How did you make that decision? At that point, I was, I had actually been talking to a friend at church that had really hard postpartum as well and I was telling her,

here are some of my symptoms and she was like, I think you're dealing with some bad postpartum depression and alongside that like other family issues I think are really hard on you she's like I would really suggest and this is something I love and trust she's like I suggest that you go get Christian counseling and so I I was really scared because I don't know why I had this thought of like, you lay on a couch and you talk to this counselor and they ask you all these prompting questions and then what if they, and I always have that fear

in the back of my mind of what if they go and tell somebody? Like, I'm a ducker, like what if this gets out? But with it being- Well that kind of stuff has happened. Yeah, with just friends. So there's always that fear in fear in the back. Oh, where you open up to a friend. Yeah And then they go and tell somebody and so With it being a licensed counselor like they legally cannot go and talk to anybody I felt more open and I told him I was like, hey, what do you think about this? And he was like babe anything

To get you feeling better. He's like, go and do it. Thank you to Haya for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Without fail, multiple times a day, Griffin will come up to us. And what does he say? Medicine, da da. He's talking about his Haya. Now that he's two, he can be introduced to Haya's multivitamin. And they clearly taste good because he loves them.

Like, and we have to remind him, hey Griffin, these are vitamins. These are only once a day, buddy. But he loves I think it's probably the packaging, too. It's very cute. I know kids can put their own stickers on the bottle, which he was a big fan of. So our son is obsessed. But the nice thing is it's a lot more than just a vitamin that tastes good. Yes. A lot of children's vitamins are basically candy in disguise. So our son is obsessed, but the nice thing is it's a lot more than just a vitamin that tastes good.

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or this. And I was like, okay, tell me what is the root cause? And then how are we going to, like a medication can mask what's going on it can trick your hormones or chemicals whatever but what is going on here and how can we fix the root problem well because i asked her i said is there anything else because she i was at the point where she was like i think you need to get on some depression medication and i was at the point where she was like, I think you need to get on some depression medication. And I was at the point of, okay, I know where I'm at. I'm not to that point where I feel like

it's life or death situation, just honestly. I'm not at that point. I'm not having made any plans. But I feel like I am at a point where I need to do something. And I said, is there feel like I am at a point where I need to do something and I said is there anything else I can do that you would recommend like lifestyle changes or anything besides getting on meds Like is there any other steps that I could do to help my health and my mental health? She was like well like the reason why she's you know, there there can be a chemical imbalance

so we we had a lot of her labs done and stuff. And at that point, there wasn't anything that was like, okay, this is way off or this hormone or whatever. I did have a couple vitamins that were really low. Yeah. That could cause postpartum depression or just depression symptoms. Yeah, and so we had her on prescription doses of those vitamins or whatever the doctor prescribed.

But ultimately she's like, she needs to work through, she needs to talk through these issues and go way back and figure out why she has this hurt. And this is probably more outside the baby blue stuff. This is just other, just part of the perfect storm, just other stuff that had happened. A lot of things from just growing up or whatever that I had never really dealt with, I had just built up and it all just exploded

at the same time. Yeah, and so she was like, you know, she needs to be talking through, working through her thoughts, having someone, you know, ask her questions in a way that gets her to start thinking about and just, so I was like all for the counseling. Like, I don't wanna mask a problem.

If the problem gets to the situation where it's like, dude, you're fixing to have a stroke if you don't get on some medication, then yeah, let's get on some medication. So you don't just die right here, right now. But like, okay, well, how can we change our eating habits so you don't have a stroke in the future or heart attack or whatever and so counseling being around

Being around Good influences moms that had gone through Stuff like I was really encouraging her to you need to do that like reach out or I Was really bad about I think I'm gonna be I'll be fine. I don't need to do that. Like reach out or. I was really bad about just, oh I'm gonna be, I'll be fine, I don't need to talk to anybody. Like I guess I felt like I had to keep up this persona of like I've got it all together.

I'm this, you know, I grew up with a bunch of siblings, my family, we had, you know, my mom was super organized growing up, like she, I don't know how she did it, but she really was organized and I just felt like I had to be there already. Like I have, even with my first kid, I have to have everything figured out. And I realized that is not reality.

Like I don't have it all figured out. And just being around other moms that were like, just similar, like here's our lives, we're kind of a mess, but we're loving it and we're figuring it out as we go and we're doing our best job at raising our kids. Was that the scary thing though? Because from the outside, people probably viewed you as having everything together,

and so you feel all this pressure to uphold the standard and then yet you're going through postpartum depression and there's family drama, your sisters released these books, which now you're questioning certain things. Like, were you almost like at a point of like, I don't even know what's real. Like, I don't even know what, like what I stand for, what I believe, because you were just in a,

in a really vulnerable, tough spot. Like, is that essentially? Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think a lot of it. And I, and I remember in the, like is that essentially? Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think a lot of it and I remember, like we had so many, I'm a late night talker, he is not, but I would be at 10, 11 p.m. just like talking about everything and I remember one night I was like, I just feel like I've been acting my whole life.

Like almost, and not that it was real, like I had a great childhood and I didn't feel like that in my childhood, like, but was real like I had a great childhood and I didn't feel like that in my childhood like but I feel like I Subconsciously was always I've got to keep this look and I've always got to have a smile and I've always got to whatever because I Don't know. I think that's part of it's kind of self-preservation like you just get tired of attacks Yeah, right. So you you kind of put on, because I came into the filming world from, you know, I was what, 22, 21, right?

So I'd lived a very normal, you know, life, not on camera, whatever, and then coming into it, and then you start getting attacked, and your initial reaction is, I'm gonna put my guard up with everybody because I'm just tired of it. I'm tired of the criticism and whatever. And so then I think it creates a bunch of unhealthy habits where you just don't have genuine, deep relationships with people. And you're just always putting on,

you always, like, if you're in public, whatever, you're always trying to smile, you're always trying to whatever because you're always trying to whatever, because you just don't want people to snap that shot of you where you look like you're miserable. And so there's a fine line of being real with people and not airing out all your dirty laundry, but being genuine and having real relationships with people.

And Joy, what did you take away from that? What are things that you decided to keep in your childhood that you were taught and then things that you decided to distance yourself from? I'm still working through it all. I don't have it all figured out. But I think that there are, I guess for me personally, and I don't want to speak for all of my siblings, but I feel like for me, I took a lot of the things that my parents said is,

oh, these are our standards as this is what God says and this is the Bible. And the Bible says that everybody has to wear skirts to be holy. And then you look down on people that don't. Yeah. But her mother does not. Yeah, my mom does not look down on people

that are different than her at all. Do you think people get that wrong about your parents? Do you think people associate those strict rules as them having some evil intent but in your opinion it's not that way at all? I'm sure. I'm sure they do. I don't know. I'm sure they do. I think that's that's that's kind of the thing with standards and convictions like if we if we have a standard of conviction it might be because of something we experienced in our life and the Lord showed us, right?

And then this is what we do in our house and this is how Gideon, Evelyn, and Gunnar have been brought up, but it may not be a standard that they need to keep because it's not something that they experienced or a struggle they had, so they needed to abstain from something because whatever, they were struggling. And so standards and convictions, I don't think, necessarily are passed down a generation to generation. It's a one-on-one personal relationship with the Lord. Each person gets their own from Him.

And it's not something that's necessarily carried down. A lot of my parents' standards came from just things like that in their past. And I know for my mom, personally, a lot of her modesty standards came because when she was younger, she had no modesty standards at all, and she wore whatever she wanted.

And she felt like when she got saved, that's something that God convicted her of. And so she wanted to change that. So I forgot the question. Were you asking what we were gonna do different? Honestly, I forget what my original question was, but I think everything you guys- We confused him.

Everything, yeah, you guys. No, you explained it really well. I mean, everything you said, though, was super interesting. I mean, you've brought up your parents a lot and mentioned them a lot. I'm curious, how often do you guys spend time together? Because you guys do live fairly close, right right? Yeah we see my parents fairly regularly and

they'll come to the birthday parties or we'll go over to some of the cousins birthday parties and see them there so we do we do see them quite a bit. How does that change your perspective now like being a parent yourself and knowing that you are obviously like no parent is perfect, right? Yeah. So how does that change your perspective of your parents now that you are going through the same thing they did for you when you were a kid? I feel like every kid probably once they have kids of their own is like Okay, like they a lot of light bulbs start coming on Oh, I see why my parents did this or we didn't do this and I feel like I've hit a lot of those moments of like

That makes sense or I don't know how they did it, especially with my mom having 19 kids. Holy cow She is incredibly patient. She is so organized and she is so humble about it. She makes it look so easy She's got it all together She I never heard my mom yell growing up at us is so humble about it. She makes it look so easy, she's got it all together, I never heard my mom yell growing up at us, she just didn't. And I always thought, oh, I'm gonna be like that. And then I realized that's a choice that she has to make

and it is so hard. She chooses to not get upset and she chooses to be patient. And that's like a lot. Yeah, it takes a lot of self-control. And I felt like I beat myself up for the longest time because I'm like, I only have one kid and I've already yelled at him

and he's only like nine months. Like stop moving when I'm changing your diaper. You know, like all this stuff, like you get frustrated. But she just handled everything with grace. And so I think even just simple things like that, um, I've really admired and I'm, I'm blown away at how she did it. Well, I was shocked talking to Ginger and Jill. Like they were just casually saying how your mom showed up for them when they

were having babies. And I'm like, wait a second, hold up. You have 19 children of your own and then you're pulling up at your grand baby's like birth and doing all this help for your daughter. 19 children of your own and then you're pulling up at your grandbabies like birth and doing all this help for your daughter when you have 19 children. Yep. I don't know how many grandkids there are but I'm sure there's like a lot. I don't know if it's a hundred. I don't know what it is but it's in the 30s now but every baby that all of us have had she'll come for at least two days with my first two it was like a walk. Yeah if you want want her, she's very respectful of you.

She's not like in your face about, I will come over. But she's like, I'll come over, I'll make meals. She cleans the house, she makes the meals. She watched Gideon and Evy place, she has her lolly bag that she brings along. So it has Lego. That's what the grandkids call her, lolly. She's lolly, that's her grandparent's name.

So she has her lolly bag which has Legos, Play-Doh, like kinetic sand that she carries everywhere she goes and she has her Zollies which are like these healthy suckers that don't have sugar in them. And like she spoils them but I don't understand. I asked her actually, it was probably two months ago, I was like how many days a week do you babysit for like the grandkids?

She's like, oh, I just, she loves babysitting. She loves going to the kids' houses. She's like, probably five days a week, just casually. I was like, mama, like that, what in the world? And she'll take Josie and Jordan, like they love playing with the grandkids. So she'll take them with them and they'll just spend the afternoon

or just a couple hours at different kids' houses. Wow. Very high capacity woman. Like she can take a lot of load. I was wondering more specifically, like Matt's question, but how your mom literally had 19, how many different pregnancies?

Because there was a couple twins in there. Well, there's two sets of twins. So it'd be, but she also had a stillbirth with her last, so it would have been, I think, coming out to like 18 pregnancies. And then she had a miscarriage between one of them too, so 18. Doesn't that, like now that you've gone through all,

like the process of like pregnancy, birth, nursing, like all that stuff, like are you like, what in the? Yeah, constantly. I even, oh. You know, in your day to day life,. I don't even think about I don't really even think about it Cuz that was just my but when I stop and I talk like this I'm like how in the world Like I've had three kids. How did my mom have 19 kids? I'm just and that she did it with crazy. Like she still is, I mean, so active. She wants to be a grandma.

It's not like she's like, I did that. I did my share of the baby stuff. She's very selfless. She's almost too selfless. She's always looking for areas to serve others. I know when we've gone through hard times, like one of our themes was when it just seemed like everything was coming apart, like you'll

never meet somebody who is down and out that is a grateful person. Like how can you... You would remind me of that and I'd be like I don't want to hear it right now. Well, but I was reminding... Just be grateful. Well, I had to remind myself of that. We have so many things to be grateful for. When you start adding up how blessed we are, other things fail in comparison. And so you can focus on all the negative and that'll just weigh you down and it doesn't do any good.

But if you focus on everything that is good, it's hard to have a bad attitude. It really is. And so for me, that's what I have to do when I'm like, life's horrible, blah, blah, blah, whatever. I just have to start thinking, all right, we've got our health. We've got three healthy kids. And then we've got a home over our head. Aren't kids just the best too?

Cause life can feel like it sucks sometimes and you just look at the joy from your two year old's face. Just having you get them out of bed. That's all they needed was to see your face get them out of their crib. They just get so stoked about literally nothing. They're just so happy and just joyful about we get to go

swing on the blue swing at the party. I'm like blue M&M and like blue M&M. Good really. That's why I just want to give them candy sometimes. I'm like, I just love to see your joy when I do it. One singular M&M gives you. Well, we say that our Gunner was my third. Like he has been the easiest baby, the happiest baby. And Austin says all the time he's, God knew that we needed Gunner. Like, our kids are all very happy. He was the hardest one for you to have, but he brings so much joy to our family. He is just the happiest kid.

It's amazing. He's just so sweet and just happy smiles all the time. Is there ever a desire for you to also have 19 children? No. Should I have to say that? No. How many are you getting? Do you guys have a number in mind?

We, I don't know. We've always said four or five or six. It was 10 when I was 12. Hey, when you come from- It was 10 when you were 12. Yeah, you can go back and watch old shows and they're like, Joy, how many kids do you have? I'm like, I want 10 kids.

You're 12. I'm like, that's really kids. You're 12 years old. I'm like, that's what we have for my mom head. When you come from 19, six or eight, like, it's, I mean, it's not that big of a deal. It's conservative. But we've talked about it. Like, we want to, I feel like right now,

we're at a good spot. Like, I feel like we can spend quality time with each of the kids. And I don't want to, I mean from the time. Our goal's not quantity, it's quality. Yeah, really it is. And I think we want to be able to effectively raise the kids that we do have.

And so I think we're taking it one by one and maybe two by two eventually. Who knows if we have twins, that'd be fun. You guys just announced that you're moving, which is so exciting. And I want to know the details. I just saw like, yeah, People Magazine was like, they're moving. So I don't know where you guys are going, but I would love to hear more about that.

We don't know where we're going. So the plan is to stay in Arkansas. Yeah. But we're probably going to stay in Arkansas, more than likely. Well, it's funny because our five year plan, since we've been married, is kind of happening. And so it's kind of crazy. Well, we've always said when Gideon was six, seven, or eight,

we wanted to eventually buy some land, have a farm of our own, all of that. And so the house that we were in currently, it's not that. And so it's kind of been, we've been working towards for years on eventually buying a farm, having the cow, like we have cows at his parents' house,

but we wouldn't have them on our land. Have like just, I don't know. Just let us. I grew up on a farm, 110, 12 acres, and we had cows and we cut our own hay and fixing fences, and I feel like it taught my sister and I a lot of responsibility, and gave us a lot of good opportunities

to just learn a lot of different stuff. And so, I don't know, I just I want to give my kids that same upbringing, that same opportunity that I had. And so that's kind of been our our goal is to sell our house and get some land. And so we're still we're still looking. Well, we're so excited for you guys. It sounds like you have a lot of really fun things happening in your life and Thank you for being on the show. Thank you for flying all the way up to Arizona and

Where can people find you guys to connect with you on social media? Well, we're on YouTube Every once in a while maybe but not right now, but you can follow us on Instagram Austin's not really super active on this but you can follow us on Instagram. Austin's not really super active on his butt. You can follow me on Instagram. You can go follow me. And then we have Facebook as well. Thanks for sharing your story today. Thank you.

Thank you guys for having us. Yeah, thank you for having us. Really appreciate it. Okay, well thank you guys for watching. And as always, three, this is where we're gonna say peace out dudes. Three, two, one. Peace out dudes. Peace out dudes.