The Unplanned Podcast with Matt & Abby - Overcoming Miscarriage, Infertility & Near-Death Experiences with Ashley & Mike Lemieux

Episode Date: September 13, 2023

We had our friends Mike & Ashley ​⁠​⁠​join the show to talk about their experience with miscarriage, infertility and Ashley's hospitalisation from sepsis during pregnancy. Make sure to rate our podcast and leave a review if you can, it really helps us out! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The older sound tech had this screen on for like maybe 30 seconds and there was no. Nothing was moving. The tech just went blank. I remember I said, I lost the baby dinner eye and he's like, I need to call the doctor. Growing up, there's like an idea of what your family is going to be. So for me, it was more than just losing him. It was losing that. There's this team of doctors around me and there is this one man. He was doing my

heart test. I remember looking at him while he was checking my heart and I said, am I gonna die? I feel like it's not talked about a lot struggling with infertility after having gotten pregnant and after a loss like that. But then pregnant again. There was a lot of emotions. It was like this beautiful joyful thing that was finally here and it was so difficult This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp What's up, dudes? And welcome back to the Unplugged Podcast Matt, it is 9 a.m. and you have way too much energy. I drank a coffee this morning

So I guess 9 is actually literally not even early. It just feels feels early today We are joined by our friends Mike and Ashley Lemieux. Ashley is, hey, yeah, let's give it up. You guys, we're so excited to be here like this, chatting with you. Hey, we are so happy to have you guys here with us. Ashley is an author, she's a social media personality. She's also been very open online and Mike is well

about past loss and grief that they have experienced and they've been very vulnerable about that on their social media. So we're super excited to have you guys. They more than that, they're friends. Yes, yes, we're friends. And they convinced us to move to Arizona. That's right, here are the ones.

From Hawaii to the middle of the desert. I'm still really proud of that. I feel like that's an accomplishment. I still have the list on my notes app of all the things that we read to you. That's right. So I can binge you proud of that. I feel like that's an accomplishment. I still have the list on my notes app of all the things that we read to you. That's true. I can binge you to choose Arizona. I literally were sitting there

and wrote down everything that we could to my book. I forgot about that. I was asking, I was like, Mike, why should, because we were stuck between Utah and Arizona. Yeah. Like, why should we move to the middle of the desert into the hottest city in America?

And you made that list. And it worked. He put a lot of thought into that list. And here we are. Is it hotter here than Death Valley? Well, there's no city in Death Valley. Oh, okay. So this isn't the hottest spot in America.

It's the hottest city in America. Yeah. That's so funny. And I think we need to talk about the beginning of our friendship. I think we need to do it. We have friends for how many? I actually think it's been like two years.

Over two years. Yeah, a lot has happened in those two years. We moved to Arizona, met you guys in Hawaii, bonded over playing, settlers of Catan. We never even went to the beach. When you got, you actually went, we never even went to the beach yet. We just played Catan.

We never did. We literally came over every night to make dinner and to play Catan. And that was like what we did in Hawaii. I don't think we played once since we've pulled because now we have baby, three babies between the two of us. But we didn't have any kids. They throw a ring to make a tan plan.

Yeah, we got a lot of things to do. I think we've set it up probably three or four times. Yeah, that counts. But then they wake up or something. It just gets derailed. Someone poops on the floor Inside joke with Mike and Ashley we try to bring it up anytime any moment we can we met at a at a First Wow, okay, well we went we met at a one-year-old birthday party in Hawaii and the theme the theme was she'll themed

We always bring it up. The part was called in. No, and definitely mermaid themed, but it's called a shell-abration. Yeah, the shell-abration. So any chance we can get to mention the shell-abration, we mentioned the shell-abration. So at that time, we celebrate her birthday

and the birth of our birthday. And our friends too. So every year, we get a shell-abration for our anniversary. It's so wholesome. I remember being so nervous, by the way, at that celebration, I don't know why. Maybe it was a COVID thing because I was never around a lot of people.

So big around people. Maybe I'll use a little bit like that. Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes it's just get weird. No one would guess it. Like you're so bubbly. Yeah, no one would guess it. I get social anxiety sometimes.

It's easier when it's just like a one-on-one conversation or like a small gathering like this. But if it's like the larger group of people, I feel like pressured to like perform or like, I don't know, peas, everybody. Anyway, I was talking to you, Mike. It's like that for me, thank you. And I said something to you.

I had no idea about your past story, but I said something to you where I immediately felt really bad for saying something. And I think it was, I remember this. It was a question that I asked you. I think it was either, do you have kids or do you want to have kids?

It was one of the two. Maybe it was grouped together as one. And right away, you just started opening up about how you didn't have kids and how you really wanted kids and a little bit of your story. And I immediately felt this guilt of crap. Why did I ask that question? Maybe I overshared there at the beginning.

I don't think you did. I think it was, I think it was like, definitely you were vulnerable and I think like we started a connection right there because you opened up in that way. Do you remember me asking you that question? No. You don't?

No, no. So you can go and feel guilty about it. Okay, you don't need to be guilty. It's okay. Is that, I guess there's probably not a right or wrong answer for this, but like is it wrong for people to ask someone, like, hey, do you want kids or do you? Like people that might have a complicated path to their hood, you don't even know it.

Like to ask, just be like, do you have, I don't know, like how do you go about that? As people that have experienced that. I think it can be really hard when you don't know them well or you don't know their background and it is so common, right? Like when you meet someone for the first time, don't know their background and it's so common right like when you meet someone for the first time you're trying to find commonalities you're trying to learn about them. One of the first questions is always like so do you have kids or how many kids do you have and I think for someone that has this I'm gonna say normal family dynamic it's just easy to

answer but there are so many people who have had a harder road, whether it's infertility, whether it's loss, whatever that thing is. And so that answer becomes more complicated and answering it off the cuff like that can, I don't know, feel at least for me, emotional or heavy or hard. So that's something that I try to stay away from

until it comes up naturally in a conversation because I think a lot of people too, when they do have kids and you're getting to know them, they start bringing it up. And so then I ask, oh, how many kids do you have or how old are they? So that's something that I look for just because I know how sensitive that topic can be for people.

So when people would ask you, do you have kids or do you want to have kids? And back then, you didn't. How did that make you feel when that question came up? It was really difficult. It even still is difficult when people ask how many kids we have because we have our baby now. But I'm a mother to more than her, but he's just not physically with us.

And so even still, it's so hard because once I have a relationship with someone that I'm comfortable talking about that, but just for some person that I don't know, I'm always like, how do I answer this? Am I not honoring him if I only talk about my daughter who's with us or do I feel safe talking about this? And so, again, it's just this complexity of emotions of the situation of just grief and loss that can make it feel complicated.

So I don't know if there's a clear answer for that question other than everyone handles what they're going through differently. And so I just try to be really aware of that when I meet other people. And I still struggle with finding the balance of what do I tell people when I'm meeting them and what do I not?

For me, it was really situational the way I answered the question because if I want to explain to them, I will. If I don't, then I say, now I just say one. Or before our baby was born, I would just say, no, we don't have any. But with you, I must have felt comfortable enough and safe to share that with you.

And so, you asked how does it make us feel, how does it make me feel sad, because we lost our boy, right? Yeah. And it made me sad for a really long time to where I didn't really wanna talk about it, with because of the feelings that it brought up to me and it made me so just miss him, sad, I would cry.

It was uncomfortable. But then when I realized that it was okay to feel that way in those feelings, that they would come and go and that I wasn't, I didn't need to try to avoid the conversation. That's when I was able to start opening up more about it and still feel sad that he wasn't there. But so no, I mean, and it's also people when they ask you that question, they're not intentionally trying to make you feel that way. They're just genuinely curious.

Like, who is this guy that I'm meeting at the celebration? Like I want to figure out who he is. You didn't have kids at the time either, so it was just figuring out who the person is. And I understand that it's not anything that was other than that, intention wise. Totally. For people that might not be familiar with your story,

mention your son just briefly. If you're comfortable explaining to our viewers, like kind of quickly what happened or like his story. Yeah. How deep do we want to go here? So we had just moved back to Phoenix. It was right with, and I know no one likes talking about this anymore, but it was right when the pandemic was shutting everything down. I know what started programs were not, but it happened and that's that actually impacted what happened to us greatly because of just the uncertainty of that time. So we moved to Phoenix, we buy our house and I'm 16 weeks pregnant and we're just so, we're so excited to enter into this new chapter of our lives

and growing our family and I remember one day like that first week we moved in I was playing the nursery with my mom and it was also the first week in Phoenix that everything had shut down from the pandemic and so I remember being kind of afraid because I was pregnant and everything was still very unknown but I also was like like, you know what, this can be a really special time for us to cocoon in our new house, to get things ready for the baby and and start this new chapter together. And it was a totally normal day until later in the afternoon I started being in the worst pain I've ever felt in my life and it kept progressing. It was basically my whole body just felt like it was on fire and I was like something's wrong and I was afraid though to go to the doctor and

by the point where it was pretty severe where I knew I needed help. My the O.B. the doctors were all closed for the day. But because the pandemic had just started, I also was very afraid to go to the hospital because we're just hearing of this new virus. And now it's entered Arizona, people are in the hospitals with it. And so I was too afraid to go to the hospital. And I was like, I'll call the doctor in the morning. We'll all be okay.

And we got to about midnight that night. And I was screaming and I couldn't get out of bed. I was in so much pain. So at that time, Mike was like, I need a call and ambulance. So an ambulance comes, I have a fever, they're having to help me walk. And they're like, we need to take you to the hospital.

So they took us to the hospital, Mike followed behind. And when we got there, the first thing that they did was check on the baby, and the baby was great. Kickin', movein', doin' great, and I was like, okay, I know that the baby's okay, so now I can get through whatever I need to get through because I just need to keep the baby safe.

And then they ran some tests on me, and the doctor came back. And he, I remember him looking very serious. And at the time, I didn't know really the severity of what he was telling me. But he said, we just got your blood samples back and you have gone septic. And what sepsis is is basically whatever infection

you have enters your bloodstream. A high amount of people who die in hospitals, they're dying from sepsis. A lot of times you can lose limbs from sepsis. It has like ongoing severe effects. And because I was pregnant, it added this new complicated layer. And so they said, we need to admit you to the hospital. We don't know how long you're going to be here, but you have to be watched. You have to be put on antibiotics. We got to take care of this. And then they said also today, the hospital implemented this policy, policy because of COVID that no one can have an outside guest come in with them.

And I remember just looking at him like so confused and then looking at my and I was like, does this mean I have to go? You're taking me and my husband can't come? And he's like, yeah, you need to say goodbye right now. And I just remember feeling so lonely in that moment and so afraid for what was about to happen because it just felt, everything just felt so scary. And now you're telling me I have to come do this alone

and then he has to go home by himself. So they, also they told you because you were pregnant and because of all the uncertainty they didn't know where to put you. Yeah, they didn't want me mixing with the wrong patience because they were trying to protect me so much from potentially getting this new virus. That's right. So they took me to the triage, which basically you have curtains surrounding you. And for the next several days, I was just behind my curtain and you can hear everything going on.

The next day, or maybe it was two days later, times blurry now, but there was this moment where I called a nurse because my whole body, it felt like I had gone numb. And I was having a really hard time breathing. And so I called her over and I was kind of panicking and she said, okay, I just need you to know that really soon there's gonna be all the doctors on the floor around us. It's called a rapid response that she had requested. She's like, we need all the doctors here

and I just need you to know that's gonna happen. So I remember all of a sudden there's this team of doctors around me and they're checking my heart, checking my breathing, my vitals, putting the oxygen mask at me and there is this one man, he was doing my EKG, which is a heart test and his name is Willie and I have since gone back to thank him because of just how impactful this moment was for me especially because I just had it had human interaction for all this time in the hospital. I remember looking at him while he was checking my heart and I said, Willie, am I going to

die? And he looked at me and he said, you are the only one who can pull yourself through this right now. You can do this, you are made for this, you've got this and I'm here with you too. After that was over, I like, I remember just pulling from somewhere deep inside of me, especially because I knew that I was pregnant and needed to protect my baby. I remember just like pulling some strength from somewhere where it's like my option right now is not to die. Like I have to stay alive and that's where my mind now is going to focus

because me and this baby are going to come out of this. So after it got through that couple of hours, I asked a nurse, I said, I need need to check on the baby and because Also deep inside of me, I was like there is no way that me and my baby just survived whatever has happened so they sent up a A nurse for like little Doppler They like put it just check the heartbeat through your belly and she couldn't find a heartbeat But she's like this is normal. Doppler is unpredictable. We're gonna send you down for you know your ultrasound They can send you back up with your ultrasound photo so you can know the baby's okay and you know

We'll keep getting through this so That night they sent me down to go get an ultrasound and The ultrasound tech had this screen on for maybe 30 seconds. And I remember looking at this screen because I knew what, you know what to look for. You can see the heartbeat at that point. And I remember looking at this screen and there was no, there was nothing was moving.

And the tech just got like this blank, just like went blank. And I was like, and I remember I said, I just lost the baby, didn't I? And he's like, I need to call the doctor. And he took me out and at that point I started sobbing and there was another nurse out there. And she's like, oh, I can print off the pictures

of the baby for you. And he just, she didn't know what happened. out there and she's like, oh, I can print off the pictures of the baby for you. And he just, because she didn't know what happened and he looked at her and just start like shaking his head. And I remember just telling them, can you guys just tell me what's going on? I just, I just need someone to talk to me right now and they're like, we need to call your doctor and she'll be up soon. And I just sobbed, being wheeled back

to my little curtain room because I knew that we had lost the baby and the doctor came in about an hour later and confirmed that. And then she said that I would have time to figure out how I wanted to deliver the baby. And she said that Mike still couldn't come in with me. And I remember a nurse coming in and holding my hand and I was just sobbing. And I was like, I need

my husband here. I need someone here with me. And so she tried to go get permission from like the head of the hospital, whoever was making decisions. And she came back and she was like, I'm so sorry. Like you're going to have to get no one can come. So my sister and my mom drove to the hospital that night and just FaceTime me in the parking lot. So I could just feel like, like I wasn't fully alone. And then the next morning unexpectedly,

I ended up delivering him in the room all by myself because he just, I was in labor all night, but I didn't know that because it was the first time I had been pregnant. Yeah. And that opened up this whole world of grief and loss and trying to find ways to move forward while honoring him. His name's, we named him Jace, while also believing

that we can build a beautiful future that we'd always dreamed of. I'm so sorry you guys. We've known you for two years and this is like the first time that I'm actually hearing this full story and we've been aware of just a little bit of kind of like what you've gone through but like thank you for being vulnerable enough to share that. And I'm just so, so sorry that you experienced that. I'm, I just, there's just no words. Mike, when you, when you got the news, like, was it, was it immediately?

Was it hours after like, because I was thinking through this, like, yeah, you weren't even there. You weren't even able to be in the hospital because of the pandemic. So a few days this is like the span of a few days and we were talking and I would drive to the hospital too I would FaceTime I would call I would just sit there as long as I could and then I would have to go home and somehow sleep and the night that all the doctors came in I knew knew and I just, I didn't want to accept it. I said, there's a chance. Maybe we'll get a miracle. Maybe he'll be okay. You'll be okay. Let's just

see. And I was just like, no, trust me. I said, I know what you're saying. I didn't want to believe it. what you're saying. I didn't want to believe it. Like, it was just... No. So, the next morning, after it was confirmed, it was more than just losing your baby because, for me at least, growing up, there's like an idea of what your family is going to be and look like and how that comes about. So, for me, it was more than just losing him. It was losing that, the idea. And well, wait a second, it actually doesn't necessarily always happen like this. Life can be brutal and really hard. And so, dealing with that reality on top of not being able to be in the hospital with

her and having to just sit there and wait. And then finally, being able to be next to her, it was for someone who is as protective as I am, especially of her, it made me feel worthless. Right? Like there was nothing I could do other than just pray and talk to her and hope that everything was going to be okay. And from going so excited to just total loss, it was terrible.

You really, you don't want to eat, you just feel fatigued and exhausted, you are confused, you're trying to make sense and piece stuff together to know what you could have done differently or better and None of that really matters because the reality is is that you're there without the baby and so I finally got to the hospital Yeah, they finally let him come because they took me to the labor and delivery union Yeah, and that's the only area the hospital you could have a guest one one guest, okay? Yeah, and but also Mike was also dealing with the loss of our baby and only area of the hospital you could have against. One guest. Okay. Yeah. But also Mike was also dealing with the loss of our baby and the fear of losing me.

Yeah, absolutely. Because I'm still very sick at this time. Did you, when you got admitted to the hospital and you couldn't go back, did you know the severity of actually situation at the time? When, as she would update me, yeah, I would. And my brother-in-law is a doctor and I think once, second, he heard that I was septic and then his response, I was like, oh, this is really bad.

We knew it was serious. So, got to the hospital after labor and delivery. Ashley was not as I had ever seen her before. It was just, it was crazy. I remember though you brought me shampoo and conditioner because I'd been in the hospital for all these days. I had like the biggest rat nest in my hair. It was fat, sweaty, gross.

I've been in a bed for days. So I get there and I'm just like just holding her sobbing together. Yeah. The nurse comes in. And you washed my hair. I washed your hair and come and brushed it and as best as I could anyway. How many days did you go without like getting to wash or shower?

It's been at least a week. A week of just like though, also being in the hospital, like laying in a bed, not moving, being in labor. I mean, it's like not a bit disgusting. I don't understand the whole like, if you could explain for someone who's like ignorant, like me when it comes to like being septic, like I understand illnesses can get really bad.

Like I know even like the flu can kill people, but like septic is that just like when an illness takes a whole new, like the, you said the virus enters your system. Your blood stream. Your blood is different than infected. Okay. Yeah, and different than infected. Okay. Yeah, and so then it's pumping. So if you think of the bacteria, so usually it's called from a cause from a bacterial infection. And we now know that for whatever reason when I get pregnant, my body overproduces a certain

bacteria that then it like tips the scales from what your body can handle. So enter the blood stream. So kind of just think of like, if poison was being pumped throughout your bloodstream and into your heart and into all the organs of your body and your kidneys, it shuts you down. A lot of people who go septic actually go into kidney failure because it can't like process through the kidneys.

So, yeah, that's pretty, that's rare,, right? That's not something that just happens often. Well, what happened to me is incredibly rare. To go from totally healthy and good and healthy pregnancy to almost dying from sepsis within hours is very rare. But a lot of people do go through sepsis and I think because it's not talked about a lot, they don't know the warning signs of how sick you actually are until it gets a little bit too late. Gotcha.

And you guys going through this had already been going through it before this whole event wasn't infertility something that you guys had also been through as well. Not yet. No, this happened after. Yes. Okay. Then afterwards, I don't know where you guys want to go from here. If you want to jump in there. I'm sorry.

Wait, no, there's a lot of info. We're going to... Well, so, wait, first of all, how long was your hospital stay at that point? Like from the beginning to the end. Probably about a week and a half. Yeah, about a week and a half. And then you still had, I'm sure, like a long, a very long road.

But they also wanted me out of the hospital as soon as possible, because they were more afraid of me being in the hospital still to be as sick as I was and then potentially be exposed. Yeah. They wanted me home. And for the next six weeks, I was so ill. I called my mom one night I remember again and I was like if they don't figure out what's wrong with me I feel like I'm actually going to die. I kept going to

Doctor appointments and I hear her say that and I'm like immediately brought back to six weeks before and I'm like Oh my god. What are we gonna do? and I'm like, oh my gosh. Just poor guy. What are we gonna do? And through a lot with me. Were you taking off work or were you, like what were you doing at this point? Well, I worked from home.

So, you know, I, when it happened, I was coaching people at the time, you know, over Zoom. And I was just like, I'm so sorry. I need, I need to take a little bit of time here. Everyone understood, so it wasn't hard. Yeah, but after all, for their doctor appointments and tests, I woke up one morning and I felt like my body was being eaten alive by fire ants. That's the only way I can describe it.

So this is six weeks after everything. This is- After I left the hospital, I'm like- And this is shocking what she's about to say. We were beside ourselves once we figured out what happened. So I'm like, I don't know who else to call, because I've been to all the doctors. I'm just going to call my OB because I know that she does listen to me.

So maybe she can help. So she's like, come in, we're going to give you an ultrasound to see what's going on. The tech immediately does the ultrasound. She's like, I need to call the doctor. And within 24 hours, I was in an emergency surgery because they found retained placenta, which kills you after, especially that long.

And so that entered this new road of recovering from all of that. So it was like, someone came into our life and lit a, like just lit out on fire. Like everything that we knew and we're hoping for and trusted in was just felt like it had exploded. And now we needed to figure out how we were going

to rebuild and heal. And me just feel better just functioning as a human again. Something I've learned a lot just from my being your friend and then also your social media is like grief is not just like grieving what has happened but also like you said like your expectations of like what was going to be. So like how did you start to pick up the pieces and start to rebuild at that point? What were things that you did to kind of fix what had been broken in some way? That's such a good question because I feel like it's something that we are still figuring

out and are still rebuilding, especially when you have a certain dream or expectation that all your hope is going toward. And then that shattered figuring out, first of all, who am I now after this? Because who I was is totally different. And I think for both of us, that's something that we both grieve is who we used to be. Like, I'm never going to be that Ashley again, because I'm different now. I know new things now. I see the world differently. I have different trauma than I did before

that makes me react to situations differently. And the very first thing that I had to do was start figuring out who am I. And now, as I have this kind of blank, scary slate of my life, what are the things that I want to add back into it? And that's what I started focusing on first. This episode is sponsored by Better Health. Postpartum can be such a challenging time, not just for the mom, but for the couple in general. I know we've been very vulnerable about having some conflict since baby.

Yeah, I don't know. We like to keep it real with you guys because we're imperfect people and we have challenges and our marriage goes through hard times just like anybody else. And that's a big part of the reason why we have made the decision to start therapy.

Yeah, and I'm really excited to get back on that, prioritize our marriage, and most importantly, prioritize our mental health. And if you're interested in starting therapy, give Better Help a Try. It's designed to be convenient, flexible, and entirely suited to your own schedule. All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire online, and they will match you with a licensed therapist. And what's great is that if it's not a great match, it's not working out, you're not feeling

like you're not feeling like you're benefiting from that. You can switch at no additional charge to a new therapist at any time. That's so nice. That benefit alone makes better help incredible. It's great because it's kind of intimidating to go into an office or it can be,

to see a therapist, but being able to do it from the comfort of your own home and in your own time is really important and a great step for convenience. And I think it's important that we acknowledge like therapy is not taboo, it's not weird, it's totally normal and we all need it. Get a break from your thoughts and visit betterhelp.com slash unplanned podcast to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.

H-E-L-P.com slash unplanned podcast today. I remember for months, I didn't care about anything. You were really depressed. I was really depressed. None of it made sense. What's the point? And I remember talking to Ashley, just mad. What's the point of this?

There is no point in work. There is no point in having a house, there is no point, like just weird things like that. What's the point of eating this or that or going here? None of it made sense because all I wanted was Jace. That's it. None of it made sense. And so I was looking at myself one day.

It pulled up my phone and I held it up to me to take a picture for some reason. I hadn't shaved, I needed a haircut badly. I had my glasses on. I looked 20 years older than I was. And I looked at myself and I just kind of laughed. And I said, you know what? I have to figure out why it matters right now.

I can't keep going in this pattern. And I was really lucky to be able to have that thought. There was a lot of work that went into building something again after that and something that I could actually care about. But in that moment, in that realization, that was a turning point for me because I knew that I had to figure out how or what that was. So I think from there, we decided, what can we do to bring us closer together?

What can we do individually to build us up and help us feel happy and safe, and like there's things and reasons that we want to keep going and building and we just started to do them. Simple little things, whether it was going on a date or putting our phones away and- You're taking a shower, I think. Or honestly, taking a shower and shaving, right? Well, you mentioned getting a haircut

and I wanted to ask you about your current haircut. It looks pretty fresh, honestly. I guess. When you lost it, I was like, yeah, I'm like, that one said that. Hey, you got a fresh cut for this podcast. I did it. Hey, you did, I knew it. I knew it.

It was for the photos, for this. I got it yesterday. You got business in the front, part of the back. It's a mini mullet. I like it. I don't like that word too much, but yeah, I did. I did it. You're like channeling TheoVon energy.

Do you know who TheoVon is? No, but Theo. He's like part of it. It would be dream. No, do not say it's a gambling feel. This hair cut looks so dope. You're gonna look at my bad news and be so cool. You like Theo Vaughan? He's a really cool guy. It's a compliment. Thank you, Matt.

Thank you. We'd love to have you on a podcast. Okay, Matt. Maybe we can be on it together Theo and that would wear our hair style I feel like you guys have had the worst luck and I say this not only because of like what we just talked about But like even meeting you in Hawaii didn't know your past story But like you guys got in a car accident like

I'm like wow that sucks and like you guys I think casually mentioned that somehow your water bill was like 10, how much money was it your water bill? $200,000 for one month. $200,000 water bill for one month, which doesn't make any sense. And we weren't even there, but guys, we were just gone this summer and we just got our water bill and it's fat again.

Someone has to be going to your house and like using your water. They have to be, but that's, we're talking like 100,000 to 150,000 gallons. Enough gallons to fill up the Arizona Aquarium. Someone's coming up with a massive like semi with like a water tank and just filling it up for the Arizona like every day. There is construction going on up the top of our street.

So part of me is like, But we don't need to say, we don't need to, we don't need to, There's no, it doesn't make sense. It's not fixed into this, but, No, let's, Alex, say it. We need to crack the's no, it doesn't make sense. It's not sexy into this, but, no, let's down, let's cry. We need to cry at the court. Okay, true crime. This is now a true crime process.

Well, good. I would love that. To be an unjumped true crime. I would love that. Abby loves true crime. Something you guys mentioned too, we're talking about expectation versus reality, and that's part of grief.

Like, when you guys first got married, was there an expectation of how many kids you guys wanted to have? Was that a topic of discussion? And then like waiting however many years you did, like was that planned? Was that unplanned? Like how did that whole expectation play out? I feel like for me everything was unplanned

because we had never ever talked about how many kids we wanted or when. We kind of just went by our feelings of, do we feel like it's the right time to try the process, start the process of bringing a kid in or what does that look like? So for me, I never had an idea of either of those things. Yeah. No, I didn't either. I was really focused on my career, but I also knew that I would be a mom at some point and I really wanted that,

but I didn't have this set number, but I will say that I always thought that we would have more than one. Yeah. And now, you know, what our life looks like now is just very different than you grow up thinking that it would, but also there's still so much to join it.

And like, there's so much just love in it that we really fought for, that what we have feels really special, and also there's a lot of grief that goes along with it. You know, I just thought of an analogy I never had before. You know, like when there's a really big wave that comes into smacks you and knocks you on your butt. Yeah, and then you're like whoa Dude that would probably you would say that. That's something I would say when I'm surface So gnarly so you get smacked you get you get a ton of water in your ear you choke on on it a little bit, and then all of a sudden, it's calm. Yeah. And you're looking around and you're either on the beach or you're out in the water. And it's not the same as it just was. But in that moment of the wave, you feel like you might die.

You're scared. You don't know how big it is. You don't know how many there are going to be. And for me, that's what it's been like. I feel like I just got smacked over and over and over. And then all of a sudden it was calm. And then other waves that I learned how to ride started happening too. Like when we got pregnant, we'll actually got pregnant again after some failed infertility treatments a year and a half after the loss. And then it was just like the beginning of this incredible, peaceful, joyful, hopeful, like so much hope for the first time in a long time experience and

experiences for me. And today I just, she's 15 months old and I still look at her every day and I'm just like, how? How are you real? How are you? How are you ours? Yeah. How are you here? How are you so cute? And it still doesn't really make sense. Just like the other stuff didn't make sense. But now it's just the opposite of what it was, and it's really been a nice relief, I guess we could say. It's been a good welcome change to be able to have the peace, you know? I remember when we met you guys, eventually you opened up to us and said that you were taking time off from like the infertility treatments and then you started to try to convince

us to move to Arizona. That was kind of your Hawaii trip, right? Yeah. Yeah. That was why you guys were in Hawaii. That's how we met you guys when we were like, that's so weird that we met in Hawaii. You guys were on a month long trip there and then we were living there for your crazy how that all happened.

But then you're like, hey, come visit us in Arizona. We go to visit you guys in Arizona. We play Katana. We play a lot of kids. You won every game. Which is so annoying. We never had crumble cookies before you guys got. Were we our first crumble?

Yes. And you guys, the fruity pebbles flavor. And they don't have anymore. And they never have anymore. I'm so upset about that. I wish they'd bring it back. I bet you they'll bring it back after this. But we're on a hike in Sedona.

You guys are doing the most to try to get this stuff to move here. We're gonna go to Sedona. We're gonna bring you guys a crumble. You guys brought us to every best thing in Arizona to try to convince us to do it. We went and looked at houses. We still have the vlogs of us. I think, oh my gosh, we do have a lot of YouTube channel. We have the vlog of us.

Did you fall on the cactus? I think, yeah, you felt, it's like Abby fell. You got it, you did when we were on. Oh, I know, I know. It was like Abby fell on the ice. That makes it sound worse than it was. If you go to our YouTube channel, I call myself Abby.

You can watch these vlogs with Mike and Ashley. Abby fell on the cactus. We did this like thing called slide rock and like went down natural water slides. That was awesome. We looked at houses in Arizona with Mike and Ashley. So this is like on our YouTube channel from two years ago. That's crazy that we have that documented.

Wow, that's really cool. That is really cool. Anyway, back to what I was saying though, in Sedona, we're on a hike and you guys are actually was like, I'm not feeling good. What was that? High depth of bridge. Yeah, cold depth of bridge.

And it was really hot out. Yeah, so that's fun. And so this is a year, it was just a little over a year of me going septic. So I was like, okay, cause you know what, it took a long time for me to physically just even come back to life.

So I was like, okay, maybe I'm just preshing it a little too hard, but I'm really out of breath. You guys kept having this slow down. I also, Matt Navi are also like 12 years younger than us. By the way, I know you can't tell by looking at me. I'm 38 and by 12 for me.

You're 38? Oh, you just turned 38. Wait, did I miss your birthday? Mike, I'm so sorry. No, you, I don't think you did it. I wish you birthday. Wait, I'm having birthday. I think you did.

Wait, I did. I think you probably have your birthday. I just, I feel like when you say that, it was me, it's kind of like it was like yesterday and I totally forgot. It's okay. It's okay, I just I feel like I feel like you're saying that was me is like yesterday and I totally forgot I'm 12 years older than Abby So Navi was for

So I don't think about it like I feel like well you guys are definitely like the older wiser. Like, you're definitely wiser than us. You've lived a lot of life compared to us. So, but I think that's why our friendship is so cool. Mike is closer and aged to your mom than he is to you.

Yeah. I can't do math like that. Let's move on. But anyway, but you were pregnant. You were pregnant. I think that's not the right thing. I've never been on the hike and you guys were just on the hike. And you guys were just gassing us. And I'm like, I can't keep up.

I'm like, OK, I didn't really feel like I was as old as I am. When you say, when you say us. OK, me. Thank you. You was behind me. Keep up with me. I was doing good. But I was like, I was like, I really

can tell our age difference right now. I didn't feel like I was as old. But now being with them and they're so young and full of energy like I guess I am I am as old as like you were like my are you tired I was like no like I'm almost totally okay but me anyways so that I was pregnant but we didn't know that I was yeah yeah and so then after when we told you that we were pregnant remember you told us and we didn't know it yet but we were pregnant. I remember you told us like, it was a bond. And we didn't know it yet, but we got pregnant one more time. I don't know. It was that same trip.

It was that same trip. We visited you guys and then we made this like long trip out of it. We went to Europe and we made our baby in Europe. I was like, what are you doing? I'm telling you, you made our baby in our house. I don't know about the same. We went to your trip or we went to your house.

Made the baby there. We can see it's written in your guest bedroom well that would have been special I would have been it an even better story I've heard people telling people that story like they like we were actually staying at your house like what that's so funny I would say that you tell I would hide away all you can see if you James. Let's just move on. Let's not talk about that. Okay. Something extra pretty sacred for. Hopefully my parents watch our podcast. That's like so funny. They totally dissapeared. Hey mom and dad, how you doing? Thanks for tuning in. I've never seen you. Make sure that you leave a review for the podcast, Bob and Dad, and share this podcast with the friend.

I can't just grow up. I can't cry. I can't cry. I'm not pregnant. I was pregnant, and that's why I was, I was so crazy. But yeah, that was very unexpected. And like the best unexpected thing ever, because we had been paused of trying

to get pregnant, trying to, oh, we were doing IUI treatments and the hormones that that does on your body, I was like, I just need, I need a break, I need to figure out. And it was during that time actually that I also decided that I was going to go back to school to get my masters in mental health and wellness with the emphasis and grief and bereavement because I just knew that from what we've been through personally, that professionally, I was like, you know what, I see people differently now and I know I can help in a different way. And so, this, it was a month after I decided to go back to school, which was a really big commitment that we ended up getting pregnant.

What, just grabbed that feeling, finding out that you guys are pregnant after everything that you'd been through. Well, also, I feel like it's not talked about a lot, like struggling with infertility after having gotten pregnant. A loss. Yeah. And after a loss like that. And then pregnant again, there was a lot of emotion.

And like there's so much to your story that we're not even talking about. So like I can't imagine like just the release maybe of finding out your pregnant after all of that But complicated, but it was complicated because I okay I was so excited and that very same day after the pregnancy was confirmed We're so excited the very first thing I did was I went and I saw my therapist because The fear that comes yeah for and I'm going to speak for myself, but I also know because I've heard from so many other women who are pregnant after loss or infertility. The anxiety that that brings because you've already been through the worst thing, being

pregnant again after loss was one of the hardest things mentally that I had to go through because every day was, is my baby going to be okay? Is my body going to do the same thing? Am I had to go through because every day was, is my baby going to be okay? Is my body going to do the same thing? Am I going to lose her again up until we were bringing her home? I had this insane fear and in fact, I'd be up some nights not being able to sleep just sobbing and he would just be holding me and we would put on meditations, we would put on calm music, we would be praying affirmations. Like I did the most mentally to get through those nine months.

And the infection that I had the first time was back. So I was on daily antibiotics. I was being monitored twice a week. We had so many appointments. You had to have a progesterone shot every week. You had to give me a shot in my butt every week. Yeah. And it was just, it was hard.

So it was like this beautiful, joyful thing that was finally here and it was so difficult at the same time. Can I add something really quick? Yeah, totally. Ashley is a very extraordinary person. That's really nice. You're a really good guy by the way.

I just wanna say that. I think you're, I think you're awesome too, Ashley. But I think, I think Mike's like a really, really good guy. I'm married, I'm for sure. Oh, it Mike, Mike wasn't done. Sorry, I don't know. I'm actually Mike. Guest me up babe.

I'm a, actually is an extraordinary person. She's also just like a lot of other people too. The fear, the anxiety, she has that. She still just one step at a time gets through it because she does the work and sits there with it to figure out how. She talks to people who are more experienced than her. She talks to others who are similar to her in the situation. To piece it all together, and that is one of the reasons why she's so extraordinary, because she has a way of understanding it all. She doesn't talk a lot, but she processes everything and then when she does talk it's this beautiful story and explanation and understanding of the way that something is because she

has a way with words that allows people like me to actually understand what's happening. It's not convoluted, it's very precise and intentional. And so all of this that was happening, a lot of it she just keeps in there. Yeah, she'll we'll talk about it occasionally. She decompresses a lot. We watched a lot of shows. A lot of the office got us through that. Like a office socks by the way. You got to show those off in the camera. Like this wearing world's best box. No free feet videos. No, not for a good. Well, it's because.

I'm showing my feet. People are doing that. Anyway, sorry. She, this is one of the reasons that I look up to you because your ability to just not just get through it, but really thrive after. I've never really seen anybody do that before. And I just wanted to say that because it's really important that you understand how awesome

of a job you have done. And really like, you didn't have to. You don't have to be where you are doing what you're doing right now, but you've you've chosen to and it's really inspirational to me to see that. So thank you. That's nice. I feel like all of us, right? All every single person is gonna go through hard things and we have two choices. One is that it just swallows us up forever and ever and I lived that way for a long time. That was all I could do. The choices that I had, the ability of making, like in the acute grief was, okay,

I need to get out of bed. I need to feed myself. I need to shower. Okay, I'm gonna get back in bed now, right? Like, that's all you can do when it's so acute. But then after a while, I start feeling like I had more choices and I could not wake up one day when I'm 80 years old and having looked back on my life, regretting it because I was too sad to ever participate in it.

And so it's brought on this new relationship with me with grief because they used to be so afraid of grief. And for a while, we would do everything we could to not feel it, or to run from it, or to try to mask it, or avoid it, or to numb it with other things. And I decided, what if grief was something that could teach me? Like, what if grief actually is here to become my teacher,

and I could learn from her? And what would that make of my life. And that has entered a really hard but beautiful journey where I can start finding words and like, reasonings behind what I'm feeling and then that means it's the same for why other people are feeling their feelings too. And it's brought this connection between other people that in the beginning of my grief I felt so lonely in and I don't feel lonely anymore. Hey real quick if you could leave a review for a podcast we'd really appreciate it and we want to give a shout out to someone very nice that left us a review.

Yes this is from O'Lana she gave us a five-star review and said oh sweet howards I've been a silent follower of yours for a while now but after listening to Augie's birth story I just had had to comment, you too blow me away with your humility, bravery, and thoughtfulness. The way you share your life with such humor and vulnerability makes a very real impact on your listeners. I cried listening to Abby extend her love and support to new moms, even as she's still not think of it herself. What a testament to your character and beautiful heart for others. I love hearing the way Matt talks and listens to Abby. You are a safe space and show such strength in the ways you love and serve your family.

Thank you both for being a light and encouragement to so many people. I'm praying for you guys as you navigate this time. Love y'all. Alana. Alana, thank you so much. That was really, really sweet. So nice. I think it's cool to read the reviews for you guys because it shows that like, I don't know, sometimes we're just recording these podcasts and like, it feels one side. Yeah, we're just looking into a camera and it's like we forget that there's so many people that are connecting with this and it means a lot that you guys are resonating with what we're saying and it feels good to know that by keeping it real with you that you're appreciative of that

because we do get vulnerable on here for sure yeah you guys have made such like a safe and encouraging space for us so just know know that that does not go unnoticed. So we really, really appreciate your guys's love and support. And we appreciate you guys leaving reviews. That really means a lot. Yeah, so thank you. Now back to the episode. It's really incredible how you've taken your grief

and then been incredibly vulnerable. But then also your education that went into it like to create this platform that you have like on Instagram and through speaking engagements and now your new podcast, which is the Healing Her podcast. Like it's really incredible how you've, like Mike said, you didn't have to do that. Like you could have kept that to yourself

and that's totally valid for those that wanna go through that. But you've also like you said, used that to teach you something and then bend such an incredible benefit to other people through that and through your platforms. Well, to speak about your grief, does that, is that something that brings you healing when you talk about it and to speak about the past?

Cause I'm like, I'm the type of person where like something bad happens to me. I'm like, I wanna forget about it. I don't wanna talk about it. I just wanna like forget it's there, which like, I'm sure there's probably like a, there's a healthy way to do that and I'm definitely like an unhealthy way, I've probably done both.

But for you, does talking about the past like empower you or like, does it, does it help to like, remember like, I know I've noticed too from social media, you guys, you know, talk about jace and like, remembering him him. Like does that give you hope like knowing like, hey, even though this was like really hard, I want to remember, I don't want to forget about these hard things that we've been through. Yeah, Jace specifically I don't want to forget him. I never could forget him. But I feel like right now in my grieving process, there's a process of grief that a lot of people don't talk about,

but it's called making meaning. And it's when your past, the things that you have been through, can start adding value to your current life, not in a way that is ever worth the cost of what was lost, but in a way where you can find meaning and connection with other people. And I think for me, that's what's been really healing for me, not necessarily sharing my story, but being able to find connection with others and then being able to use the things that I've learned to help other people, like the amount of messages that I get from women

every day who have just felt so alone. But then they see something that I've posted in the community or that other people have posted in the community and they're like, okay, I'm not alone. I can get through this. These are tools that can help me. That's why I continue to share because I believe that healing is accessible

and available for everybody. And I want that for them because I know how painful it is to not ever think that your life is going to be worth living again. And my question for you is like, as the husband's seeing actually go through all this, you're also experiencing it with her and I'm sure this had a big effect on your marriage. I was listening to your podcast episode that you guys released the two of you talking about. I was listening to your podcast episode that you guys released the two of you talking about your marriage and and just

There's something that you said that I really related to which was I Feel like I'm you you mentioned on your podcast or on Ashley's podcast. I feel like I'm losing my wife or like I feel like I don't know you anymore and like that Resonated with me because with Abby and I being together seven years I've definitely said those words too. And we've definitely been through times in our marriage where it's like, are we gonna make it out of this? Like it just seems like everything is so hard.

And so, if you're open to sharing, I'm curious, like when that moment was and how you guys got out of that. It was a lot of moments. Same. The most important thing that I have learned from marriage is you both have to make the decision to continually come back together and press forward. If you're on the same page that way, then I believe that most everything can be pushed through and we'll just say, we'll say most because I don't wanna get into the things

that I think can't be, but as long as you're on the same page and you do try to come together, we have arguments. There's been words. We respect the over-parking spot. Really? Is that the argument? And what to eat for dinner?

No, there's been more serious things. That is true. We're human beings that have flaws and our characters are not perfect and we try our best, right? Like, you know? It's crazy to me how the topic of kids causes so much controversy.

I don't wanna, I mean, like kids, having kids is amazing, but it's like, it's crazy how like kids in your marriage like has been a major part of your story and ours too, like in Hawaii, we were debating on like, if we were gonna start having kids and then we did and then it was really hard

and then we got pregnant by accident and then like, or unplanned, like we obviously are so happy to have two, anyway, I'm like on a tangent. Well, you're learning because you come into your marriage, the two of you, right? And that's where your life and your world has been centered around the two of you

and all of our time and attention when it's just the two of you and all your, all of our time and attention when it's just us two, it's like that's all you're getting and receiving is from each other. And then you enter in these new little humans who require everything from you. And so now that attention is being directed elsewhere. And then people can feel like they're being forgotten about. There's nothing. And that was one of the things that you brought up. Mike had told me I just want my wife back. It was my energy for him was non-existent anymore as I was trying to get through the hard stuff

and that can happen. Though in marriage for so many reasons and it's so hard and I feel like people don't really talk about it because like it's hard talking about the hard parts of your marriage, right? Something that I think the exact quote was I just want my wife back and Matt literally has some of that to me post having kids because there's something about being pregnant. Like it literally changes you like going through pregnancy and then being a mom or like whatever your journey is.

Like it literally changed like the chemistry in my brain. I was like, I can't even think about you right now. You're the least of my worries. My brain can only think about, right now, I can hear algae crying in the background. I know, I can feel you wanting to wrap up the podcast. Could you hear your baby crying? So you're like, oh, we got a lot of conditions. It's just like, I feel like, I don't know how to manage that after having a kid.

Can I just validate you for a second? I mean, because first of all, you had a baby, like 13 months, 14 months ago, griffin. And now you, and you were breastfeeding and all those hormone changes and postpartum, and then you got pregnant again, and now you're back into the postpartum. And I just wanna validate that because that is so much,

but this postpartum period isn't gonna be forever, but what is so cool because I was like, I have to know why my brain feels so different. Literally, your brain is doing exactly what it was designed to do to give everything to your baby to keep him alive. Like, there are hormones and parts of your brain that physically change the second you get pregnant

so that, because it's nature's way of being like, okay, we're gonna keep this baby alive. And so of course you're feeling all of these things. Like you're literally in it right now. So, and I know it's so hard and can be so hard on the marriage, but I just wanted to tell you that, that you're doing such a good job, you're doing everything that-

You are, you're awesome. Thank you. That you're so, that your brain is like, you're just doing everything that your brain was created to do, but that's also why it's hard, because postpartum brain is like a real thing, because they get everything that you have.

And you know, you're totally validated to feel the way you do too, and it's not that Abby's doing anything wrong. She's doing her best. You are too. What you guys are doing right now with two babies under a year and a half, under 14 months old, that's very challenging.

Regarding though, like, I just want my wife back. I'm not a therapist, but when you say that, the first thing that comes to my mind is, you're not gonna get her. Ouch. Old Abby is gone, but you have a new version of her. The core of her is still there. This is even a more beautiful, whole, complete version of that old Abby. She has to keep growing in order to do the things that she needs to do. And so, I can say that to you because I've literally felt the exact same way that you have. If she was the same, she wouldn't be able to do what she needs to do now.

So, you just look at her and say, and I know you'll do this because you're a very thoughtful guy You're gonna look at her and say I really love about you this you're doing this now And I really love that and you'll you find new things to love But the core of who she is is never gonna change. I love that and She'll still give you attention. She'll still give you what you need But just remember like you have to make a Mutual decision to just keep coming together and like that's for me still give you what you need. But just remember, you have to make a mutual decision to just keep coming together. And for me, that's what the difference maker has been.

So that is really cool. I want to talk about the happy ending story. Like when I was wrong in that I thought it was finding out you're pregnant, I didn't realize, obviously me not going through that. I didn't realize all the, hardic that came with, oh, we're pregnant now. Here's all these other problems that we're about to face.

But like, we're, we're now looking back, like, where did you find redemption and like hope and like, how are you guys doing now? Like, yeah, I explain where you're at now. Every single morning when my baby comes in or I go and get her hearing her say mama, mama, and I'm just like, how is this my life right now? There's just so much joy right now in this season and like being able to have the three of us together and this little human that has healed so many parts of me

but also that I can show up as completely her mom because I did the work before she came. And so I don't have to transfer that on her or have her fill this role of like being the thing I needed to heal me. I feel like because I'm able to give her my whole self that has just created this really beautiful dynamic and I just feel like we always are like how is this our life right now? But it's been so fun and so so special. I think that that's important to say like

She wasn't the one who healed yeah everything like we had to do a ton of work individually and as a couple before we were ready to have her here I I think but she has added just so much happiness that has been amazing and she has helped in the healing but it's like the baby isn't the healer right? I nor should they be but I'm also such a different mom now than I would have been in a way that I think is better and more of what she might need throughout her life because I can understand different things

just differently than before. But yeah, all that to say, we're just so happy right now. I think seeing you, Mike, become a dad, it was just cool to see this flood of pictures and videos that you'd send to us. It's Annie Ra like eating this and like she's do it now she can roll over and just like it was so you yeah it was it was just so sweet to just see you light up like that like I just knew from knowing you guys that you wanted that so bad and it just made me really really happy to see you as parents. Thanks. Was that was that day the day of Annie Ray's birth? Was that a release?

I remember that. I'm guessing it was a really special day, obviously. It was so special. And I will just say that everything leading up to that point had been so traumatic. And I feel like, you know, you hear a lot of traumatic birth stories. And so I wasn't sure what to expect with her birth.

I just wanted her safe. But giving birth to her that night was one of the most special just like quiet, sacred, beautiful experiences ever and to be able to participate in that and like I just I say you did a little more than part. Okay, you were the main character, but just to be like the vessel which she came into the world. And for me and my body to experience that after having gone through like so many other hard things. Man, that night I kept asking him

and the nurses and my doctor. Am I dreaming? Is this real like everything just felt like this cloud of just peace and yeah, it was, I wish I could bottle that feeling up forever because it was incredible. That's, I just, I love that. I remember getting pictures of her. We were like, she's so perfect.

She felt perfect. I gotta say what you guys told, the excitement on your face and you told me that you, or you guys told us that you were pregnant. It was so fun because I think it was, okay, you guys told us that you were pregnant. And then like a few weeks later, we come and tell you guys that we're pregnant. And then your words, Mike, were, our kids are gonna get married. They're gonna watch this in like 30 years.

Yeah. And then we're gonna. Mike, we got married. And this is on 30 years. Wait. We're never talking about the fact that you guys only dated for like two months Whoa, hold up, hold up, wait yeah What a day for me that

We got it going to your oggy We've got two minutes left, you guys dated for how long before you got engaged? The first time we kissed was middle of November We didn't kiss like on the first day, I waited very gently on me I kissed on the first date, I waited. Very gently on me. I waited. I kissed on the first date, so. I waited. I waited. Middle of November engaged on Christmas,

married March 6th. Oh my God. What have any raided that she got? I will, I always tell him, first of all, I love you, I'm so glad we're married. Second of all, I would never repeat that history. And that is insane, and if our daughter ever says that she's marrying a man after a month and a half,

the answer is no. We are leaving the country with her and like, not okay. I have so glad it worked out for us. Wait, how many months was that from meeting each other to getting married? I had known who she was. I had known who she was, just hadn't met her for a couple of years.

He saw a picture of me in film love, but at a boyfriend. But the, oh, okay. That's a five-hour ride. You got my number first, You got my number first. You got my number first. But wait, from the first kiss to the wedding day, what was that, was that four months? This is terrible.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Three and a half months. Three and a half months. From the first kiss to the wedding day. Well, no, no, no. 12 years now. I think it worked.

I think it worked. I think it worked. I think it worked. So, so,. Clearly it works out for you guys. So, so if a narrator comes up to you and says, hey, I met a guy, we're getting married in three and a half months. No, no. No, I'm blowing glass.

But it worked out for you guys. But it worked out for you guys, you know. It has worked out for you guys. But I also, I also tell him, I feel like if I was married to anyone else, anyone else is like personality That everything we've been through. I don't think we would have been able to stay together. I feel the same So it did work, but it doesn't always and I yeah, I think we got really lucky But I wouldn't repeat that history

Yeah, but I'm glad like it ended here. I would do it to marry you, but not again after that The first couple years were the first year was actually really hard because we were like getting to actually get each other. Yeah. You know? You guys have overcome so much. You guys are still married after all of that, which I think is incredible,

because I can't imagine going through all that together. What would your advice be for someone that is currently in the midst of it? That's a really good question. My, I don't know if I had to have advice, but what I want to say is that I promise you that this feeling that you have right now isn't going to last forever. And that there is still so much joy, even in the midst of the grief. And there's still so much life for you to live

that I just want you to keep doing the things every single day that allow you to get out of bed and to take care of yourself, knowing that there is a future version of you that is gonna thank you so much for doing the hard stuff right now to get there. And I know you can't see that person yet, but it's gonna think this part of you someday.

That's beautiful. Yeah. Well, Mike and Ashley, thank you so much for coming on the unplanned podcast. We got really deep today. That was really good. I'm sure what you guys shared is gonna be very helpful for a lot of people.

If you guys haven't already checked out, their social as you can find Mike and Ashley the Mu on Instagram and actually just launched her podcast Healing her which is really really good. I just listened to the episode of you guys talking together. So Definitely go check that out and And yeah, thanks for coming on you guys Sweet and as always we say peace out dudes and episode two. Perfect. You got to just like bear with us on the cat and just sleep with you.

Okay. Embrace the cheesy. I love it. Three, two, one. Peace out dudes.