The Viall Files - E860 Going Deeper with Nick and Sandy - The Ultimatum

Episode Date: December 26, 2024

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper with the Ultimatum’s Nick and Sandy  Season 3 of The Ultimatum just wrapped and there are so many unanswered questions. What was their relationship like before the experience? Why did they come on the show? Why was Sandy overwhelmed by Nick during the process? And, are they getting back together?  “There’s just so much that nobody sees.” Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff every Monday starting October 21st! Available wherever you get your podcasts and YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774286896 Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  Please make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode and as always send in your relationship questions to [e-mail] to be a part of our Monday episodes. Listen To Disrespectfully now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0J6DW1KeDX6SpoVEuQpl7z?si=c35995a56b8d4038 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  If you would like to get some texting advice on Office Hours send an email to [e-mail] with “Texting Office Hours” in the subject line! To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://www.advertisecast.com/TheViallFiles  Thank You to Our Sponsors: Huggies - Learn More At https://www.Huggies.com  Rocket Money - Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to https://www.RocketMoney.com/viall today. Episode Socials: @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @nicholas.tramontin @sandy_gal @justinkaphillips  @leahgsilberstein @dereklanerussell

Welcome to Finally Caught, a true crime podcast from the hit North American and UK television series. I saw the one girl with her throat cut and her abdomen stabbed and slashed. It's a gruesome sight. Blood stains on the bed wall. This is just the beginning of the journey. Each episode details a horrific murder and subsequent investigation in order to capture the killer at large. The newly released first season of Finally Caught, available wherever you get your podcasts. The mysterious death of a toddler. The gruesome killings of prominent billionaires. The cold case of two murdered women. Death in a small town. The billionaire murders. Forty years

cold. I'm Kevin Donovan and This Is Suspicion, a podcast from the Toronto Star. Listen for a new season with a new case, early 2025. Meanwhile, look for new bonus episodes of Billionaire Murders at thestar.com or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. How are you? Good. Happy to have you. Thank you. Appreciate you guys having me. On a scale of one to 10, are you nervous to do this. Good. Happy to have you. Thank you. Appreciate you guys having me.

On a scale of one to 10, are you nervous to do this? Excited to do this? No, I think the nerves are through and past. Yeah, it was a wild ride. I mean, it's been some time, so I think that we're all in different places now. Well, here we get to finally set the record straight. We'll dig into it. I can hear it.

I don't know what to expect. Finally, he set the record straight. We'll dig into it. I can hear it. I don't know what to expect. I'm excited. I mean, I didn't know what to expect either. Well, I'm glad you're here, man. Me too. And I'm glad you're doing better. It'd be hard to be doing worse, I suppose, than that experience, for sure.

Hi. Welcome. Hey, how are you? You're gonna be right by now. You're right there. Hi, how are you? Hi, so good to meet you. I'm a big fan, I love you guys. I've been listening to your podcast for years. We love that.

Yay, well that's good. Document this hug. We're gonna be fighting soon, I'm kidding. I know, I know. No, no, no, we don't hate you. We don't love everything we saw on a edited show. So like- No, it's okay, neither do I guys. We do not blame you.

Hi. Hi. How are you? Good, how are you? Good. Good to see you. I know, good to see you. You okay? Thanks. Oh, awesome, I like you. Can you dress up for the occasion? Yeah. Hi. Thanks. Oh, awesome. So, I like it. Can you dress up for the occasion? Yeah.

Hi. Hi. Nick and Sandy reunite. Yes. On a scale of one to 10, what's your guys anxiety level right now? Before this, it was a 10. Right now, I feel actually pretty calm.

Okay. Yeah. Could have been worse. I feel like there's a good energy in here and it's, I mean, it's nice being, you know, seeing Nick. So I feel pretty calm right now. We'll see in like five minutes. Okay, when we dig a little deeper.

Yeah. Ah! Okay. I mean, I think being with humans is a lot easier than being with social media. How have you been handling? How's her heart? Yeah, how is your heart?

Yeah, thank you, Sandy. She's trying to get brownie points before we really get started. No, I was like waiting for you to ask that. No, truly, yeah. Why didn't you ask that? Yeah. We haven't really asked in a ton lately. But how is your heart?

It's been better. It's been better, for sure. How's your heart, Nick? It's a struggle to go through what we went through and then have so many opinions get thrown around that, you know, are not based on true life interactions with either of us. And when you, when you mean by true life interactions, I think that, you know, the show gives a perspective on a, on a moment in time that we were dealing with, which was tremendously difficult. And as far as my social media experience prior to this, it was pretty

much purely based on work. It wasn't personal. So I never had, I never opened my phone to people making comments about myself or Sandy or any of the other people that went through this with us. So it's challenging to not take it personally and kind of ground yourself through, you know, the fact that this is through a lens that other people are witnessing and just try to stay truthful with what we know to be. And are you, are you staying offline though? Are you actually going on and seeing what people think? I would say that in the beginning I was definitely paying a little bit more attention

and I recognized for my mental sanity that, you know, it's not necessarily something. I can imagine it must also be hard because it's like the one person that you would talk to, you know, who went through this with you and who knows you, you're broken up. So it's like, you can't really talk to that person. So it's like, there is no really safe space.

When did you guys film the reunion? About a month ago. About a month ago. Yeah. Okay. And that was the last time you guys saw each other in person? Last time I saw them in person, but I will say we've actually been like good supports

for each other through all of this. Like Nick and I, we would not be sitting here together if we didn't still like care about each other and love each other as humans. And so to your point, Natalie, I actually like we have leaned on each other through this because we, it's so weird. I mean, you know, you've been in reality shows,

like people don't understand unless you've gone through it and then throw in our real life relationship, real life issues that we truly struggled with. And now they're just like all over the TV for the entire world to judge. It's a really weird thing to go through and it's hard. But I do think that we've shown up for each other throughout this process, you know, as best as we can because we are broken up, right? So, yeah, I mean, even though we're broken up,

I still have so much care and gratitude for the experiences we had prior to the show. And there's a reason we were so connected on so many levels. And I think for me, I'm in a bit of a, um, I go, I don't want to see or hear anything negative towards her. I mean, she had her experience. I had my experience, but for me, I feel very protective of her when it comes to people saying things that are way outside of who her actual character is. It doesn't feel good for me. I think that what a lot of people are seeing is the end of a real relationship. And the experience provided a rapid departure for the relationship and it wasn't the healthiest way for us to move apart. But- Well, I don't know if there's any healthy way to break up.

It certainly went out with a bang. Where is that? What is both of yours? One biggest regret in terms of your conduct on the show without blaming editing, without like, just like something that you watched back and you were like, did not love that I did that. I wish I would have done that differently. I can only pick one.

You can pick multiple, but I'd love to. I'm like, there's lots. It's like, we have a lot of questions, a lot of things we wanna cover, but I am curious, before we like lay in or just be like, why the fuck did you guys do this? I'm just curious off the bat, if it was more like, I definitely did not love how I handled myself that way.

More of this, less of what the other stuff I was drinking. Yeah. I would say, you know, it's it's pretty clear, I think. It wasn't clear, I'll be honest. Yeah, it wasn't. Were you drinking a lot of alcohol? Yeah, I wasn't sleeping. You know, I was having a very difficult time being in my apartment. And it just kind of tallied up and tallied up and tallied up. And I was, I was far more emotionally volatile or reactive than I would ever want to show up for somebody that I care for no matter how crazy the experience was it's not I Don't feel that I showed up with my true authentic self And I think that's just that's hard to that's hard to digest in any scenario Especially when you have to watch it on is that something you struggled with beforehand or did kind of you know?

It helped you through the show, so I've had my ebbs and flows with it I think that I recognized through the experience that I needed to take a harder look at it. Okay. Um, it had been something that, that came up in our relationship prior and that I would go, you know, I would sometimes feel like I had had it together. And then sometimes I would dip back into it. And I don't think that I was getting the kind of mental health support and system.

And I wasn't putting the right structure in place for me to not use, you know, things to escape. Well, I mean, when it comes to doing reality TV, if you go into the experience, using any substances, a coping mechanism, chances are that will only increase, not decrease, because those spaces, they don't have support systems. It's all about any substances, a coping mechanism, chances are that will only increase not decrease because those spaces, they don't have support systems. It's all about putting you on an emotional island and seeing how you react. That's kind of what all these experiments are. So there is that. What about you? You know, there's a lot. Like I normally am not the type of person that's like, oh, I regret something because there are learning lessons

through everything truly. And there have been a lot of learning lessons through this. But I can't lie when I say like, there's a lot of things that I would just do differently. Truly, I think if I can pinpoint one of them, it would probably just be my overall like attitude and kind of my frustrations that I was holding on to towards towards Nick through the process, and just like me not really considering what he was going through.

Because it's very clear to everybody else, of course. It's very, you know. It did seem like you lack the appropriate amount of empathy. Right, right. And I see that now. And in the moment, you guys, like, it's so hard to see other people's experience because it's so intense for yourself and it was really really intense and there's a lot of things

that happen that we don't see in regards to me and Nick and kind of what we're talking about here that made it just worse and worse and worse and yeah, it just, I think it just got out of hand, but that's definitely something for me because I truly, I mean, I care about this man so much and our love has never been the issue. Like it's never been a problem for us. And it really is hard for me to watch because it just looks like I don't give a shit, you know?

When really I was just hurting myself. I can you are you able to elaborate Nick just because be honest I felt like I don't know where you protected by the edit or not but but watching it back I mean as a viewer it was like why is Nick apologizing constantly to this one yeah and why is for what appeared to be no reason I agreed to do this experience, it's right. Like I signed up, I signed on the dotted line for us to break up. I was, we were in a place where I think this actually

had it been a healthier setting for both of us, we would have gotten a healthier answer, but probably would have arrived at the same point. You know, I think we were trying to find the next thing to either bring us absolutely together forever or break up. I went into it, I would say maybe a little flippant and arrogant that it would be fun. We would laugh about the experience and come back in this loving, oh my god, I missed you and how could we do this? And obviously that didn't go down the way that I thought. And so I spun out.

I was very emotional and being alone through that, I was basically, I would say I was contacting Sandy to the point where it was, it had to be uncomfortable for her to be dealing with that. I was not in a grounded place. Yeah. I was texting and calling incessantly and not, you know, not knowing what to do. Would I look back now?

Should I have left? Maybe, maybe so at that point, I was committed to trying to get through the pain to experience our time together. And I look at it and see a very... I mean, did you say anything like crazy? I'm watching it and being like, I consider myself to be pretty chill and not jealous.

And I'm very emotionally regulated. But if like my girlfriend was living above me with another dude, and again, I'd love your commentary, but it seemingly looked like you were being dismissed constantly. I don't know how I would handle it if my girlfriend was telling me to fuck off. It just seemed like that.

There's just so much that you guys, that nobody sees obviously. What are we not seeing? So I was essentially an absent boyfriend moving into the show, right? I was unsure about if we were gonna be, if she was gonna be able to meet me where I wanted to go and that's probably not the, you know,

Sandy was in a position in her life where she's excited about LA kind of culture, like she's immersed in a culture that I've kind of been a part of for a long time and was trying to pull back from. And I think we were, I've said this multiple times, but we arrived at the same destination at different times. And I think that I was pretty cut off

from what she needed for me emotionally moving into the show. How'd you guys end up on the show? Because that's another thing that was like hard to watch. Cause there was a lot of like you being like, you brought me here. Right. Which was-

But he wanted to do it. Okay, did you not want to? I mean, I was open to doing it, but I originally said no. I got reached out to and I declined. I was like, that's not something that I wanna do. Our relationship is not that serious to go into a marriage proposal.

Because we were very often on in our relationship. And I think that's something to note. Him and I had not been dating for two and a half years. We had known each other for two and a half years. And we had been actually dating for about nine months before going on the ultimatum. And within those nine months, we had broken up maybe five, six times.

So it's context we did not know. Exactly. So it's very different than being in a solid two and a half year committed relationship. It's very true. But we had this love that was undeniable. And we had loved each other. We had said we loved each other before we even actually started dating dating. So we did love each other for like maybe two years or so. But it was very, you know, off and on. But yeah, I mean, we obviously both agreed to it. And yeah, there were moments where I was just like

frustrated where, you know, I'm like, you wanted to do this. I think that frustration was more so stemming from the overall like attitude that we both kind of had, but mostly him had moving into it was so like unbothered, was very, we were very silly and playful about it. It was not like this serious somber thing where we're like, oh my God, we're gonna break up. He was really chill about it and almost to the point where it was a little bit bothering to me because I'm like, okay, does this not freak you out?

I just had felt pretty taken for granted in the relationship. And so then I think moving into it, the reason why I'm like, you know, what's going on is because all of a sudden it it it switched because it got real, because we didn't know how intense it was going to be. And I think his real heart and like feelings for me showed up like the second we got there. But you guys have to understand before we got there, it was not like that. But that wasn't because he didn't love me

or actually wanna be with me. It was just because he was running from his own things or whatnot. So it was like, you were avoiding in the relationship. And I moved into the experience with that like all over me. And then I was just like, wait, why is this all of a sudden flipped, you know, now that we're here?

No, I can totally see your confusion on that end of, I mean, you said multiple times you felt neglected in the relationship and then, you know, I get your point where it's like now you see her with another man and you're like, hold on, what the fuck? I want you, I love you, you know, you always want what you can't have. Why was there so many breakups in your relationship

before coming on The Ultimatum? I think it has to do with some of the, kind of the emotional turmoil or whatnot that Nick had been going through, and obviously, like, you can speak more to it, but there was just a lot of, like, instability, I think. In terms of, like, the surface level of our dynamic and our lifestyle and our relationship.

But in terms of like underneath that, our actual connection and love for each other, we always like would find a way back to each other because we really, really do love each other. So yeah, I think that's something that wasn't shown a lot of is Sandy and I started as very, very good friends. And we did have a physical connection, but she had come out of a relationship.

I was very much ready to commit. I had been in a point in my life with her where we'd been dating, but I was ready and I, she wasn't and she was very honest about that, but I had to essentially say at this point, like, I can't continue to be physical with you anymore because I'm not getting the emotional side of you that I'm yearning for. And- He kind of gave me like a mini ultimatum, like exactly. And then I started to see somebody else and she came-

Wow, you and I are the same, Nick. Full twist and said, I recognize that I love you. I recognize that I want to be in a relationship with you. I am here to commit. That relationship that I love you. I recognize that I want to be in a relationship with you. I am here to commit. That relationship that I was in was very easy to depart from, and we then made a commitment to each other. We'd always had a lot of fun together. We had a lot of good stuff going.

We had a really beautiful relationship. I think if you look at the cadence of it, me having that, you know, need for, it kind of came full circle for both of us. Cause I had the initial like, I can't do this. You're not getting me what you need. And maybe I was carrying resentment from that, that I didn't acknowledge. I think that I was, you know, I don't really feel like I'm a jealous person.

So when she would go out and go to events or parties or whatnot, I would just, you know, have a good time, like see you later. See when you get home. It wasn't something that I really wanted to be involved in, but I did feel when I got to the show that that thing that I guess, you know, I, I, I'm sure, I'm sure at some point in my life, I've been cheated on. I don't know. I'm not for certain, but I can just tell like, I don't know that feeling because I've never specifically seen or felt what it felt like. And that emotion is, is really intense. And to see her with JR so quickly have a connection and have it be like there was, it was obvious

that even though there were other people attracted to her and other people that wanted her attention they were magnets and I was very aware of that from day one we were too yeah and that was a more difficult thing to digest than I could have ever anticipated going into the experience you guys guys discuss any rules or boundaries in terms of how you guys are planned on kind of, you didn't know? None? No. I trusted that there wouldn't be beyond a certain level, but I was also understanding

that we were going to be dating other people and that I may have a connection, she may have a connection. She had asked me one point about sex, I said no. So we kind of knew that that was off limits. What do you mean, how'd you ask it? Were you like, can we fuck? No, we just were kind of, we actually didn't have very many conversations

about the experience or the show leading up to it in general, which I think was our problem. That's crazy. We went into it very like, whatever, we kind of winged it, and I will say, I tried to have a lot of conversations with you that you didn't want to have, but we did have the conversation around boundaries. And we basically said like, yeah, no boundaries. I mean, you asked me specifically if I was bringing condoms. Yeah. Like if you were going to have sex.

And I said, absolutely not. Yeah. And so that was clear as day. Like, okay, cool. That's, we don't have to worry about that. But we. But we were open to doing the experiment, like kissing or whatnot. That wasn't, me and Nick have had a very open mind. It just, we're really open-minded humans. And so that wasn't a crazy concept. It just didn't turn out the way that we had thought. Yeah, it was more, I guess it was less about, cause you're right. Cause like, who knows? I're right, because who knows,

I mean, sex, who knows, for certain couples might not mean anything. It was more like, I was a surprise, not only just you guys, but just all the couples. It seemed like not a lot of couples had a conversation about

how can we make sure the other person feels respected in this process, because it definitely doesn't feel like you guys had that conversation about how do we make the other person feel respected in this process. Because it definitely doesn't feel like you guys had that conversation about how do we make the other person feel respected in this process, given that, regardless if it's sex or making out or, because if we're thinking about the sex, what we watched felt like a lot of disrespect

in both directions between the two of you. And I think that was the most shocking thing for me to watch as a viewer, where it was like, all these couples kind of fucking hate each other. Because like, for a concept of like, you know, a premise of, and again, I appreciate the context you guys offer that maybe you guys weren't as rock solid as we were led to believe going in.

But yeah, it was just more like the lack of respect, you know, regardless of what your guys' individual boundaries or comfort levels with sex or dating or whatever, it just, I was shocked by JR's ability to act like he owned you in front of Nick and where that confidence level came from and your seeming support of that behavior around Nick.

I think being there, like we, you know, you don't have boundaries, what not. And okay, you're, you don't have boundaries, whatnot, and okay, you're in these types of experiences. There's obviously, you know, there's kind of rules that they have, I don't know if they have a bachelor or not, but like with this, it's like, okay, you guys are broken up, there's no boundaries, whatnot.

And so I think I was really trying to take it for what it was, like the whole process and experience and like really dive into all of it. And I think with that, I was kind of like delusional a little bit, like not really able to actually see what was going on. And I, again, I just had so much resentment. I was like, you wanted to do this and now we're doing it.

And now you're upset. Did you have to convince her to do it? No. I mean, no, but he was, he wanted to do it. He was all on board. Did you not want to do it? I didn't want to do it at first. I mean, no, but he was, he, he wanted to do it. He was all on board and I didn't want to do it at first. And then we went through the process and I was very like, if it happens, it happens, like fine, whatever. But it's-

That was not, you, that was not discussed that you didn't want to do that. No, I had- You and I, you may have had your own reservations off- I had said, no, I have the messages of me literally rejecting and saying, no, thank you. You know, like I didn't know that you didn't wanna do it. If I knew that you didn't wanna do it.

I brought it to you saying that somebody reached out to me and I was like, this is, obviously, this is not something that we're gonna do, and you wanted to do it. And yes, we all, we went through the process and it happened. And I'm not saying that I didn't want to do it, I'm just was more so holding kind of resentment

because of your overall like, just kind of the attitude moving into it where you're like, oh, I can't wait to have all my sexy girlfriends and this and that and da da da da da, like, you better watch out. It was like very, very playful and joking to the point where I was like, okay, damn. And then we got there and I think I was playing into it too. And then it was

just then it got way too serious. But I do genuinely like taking sarcasm out of context for a very situation, very like serious conversation is, is a little risky, but I can hear what you're saying. And I think that we were trying to make light of it together. Yeah, we were when we had fun conversations. Yeah. And I think if you went into this with, you know, a hard nose into the wall and trying to like, there wouldn't be a reason. I did want it to be a fun experience for us. You're an absolutely gorgeous human being.

And like, you are going to have the attention of men no matter if you're with me or with somebody else. So jealousy is not best served in my situation with or without the show. Like, what do you mean by that? That she's gorgeous. She's going to get attention from men no matter what. What's that. Like, what do you mean by that? That she's gorgeous. She's going to get attention from men no matter what. What's it up to?

And what do you mean by that? So like me being open about it, it doesn't do me any good to try to feed into the idea that I would become jealous. I was just trying to be open-minded that she would have a connection on the show, that I would have a connection on the show. We learn about ourselves through it. And then we get back together and work on the things that we both wanted to have and see where that would end up.

The thing is, we did a lot of that and we did do a lot of work together after, even with our time together. And even after all the drama and the madness and the things with JR and whatnot, we really did, we were able to come together as a couple again and have some breakthroughs because we recognized that there were some very deep wounds that we triggered in each other and weren't

showing up for each other in specific ways. I wasn't holding space in certain ways. She wasn't holding space in certain ways. And we had conversations that I was hopeful to have to move forward. Unfortunately, at that point, the relationship had run its course. And I think that at the very least, I can look back and have the, I wouldn't say it's my heart is full that we had those conversations because I had to still deal with all the stuff before, but I am glad at the very least

that if there was any reason for me to stay, it was to have those chats, which nobody sees. You know, that's not in. I mean, I get why you wanted to make it to the part where you get back together with your girlfriend, for sure. I think a scene part that was very hard for me to watch was when you came to the door, banging on the door, and it was like you could hear a broken man

who you've known for two and a half years off and on. And it was, you sent JR to the door to answer it and to deal with it. Was that for any particular reason? So, so yeah, that is definitely kind of, that was a big night. And we're seeing most of none of it. And what we're seeing is like, I mean, it's not that's not exactly like how it went down. I had a extraordinary back of all the times I was having a hard time that day was the hardest. So what a lot and I'm not like I have to keep some privacy to my life., but something happened that day and it was not to do with our relationship. And it was a very, very heavy, like extremely somebody in my life who I've known for 13 years and has been one of the closest people in my life. Did me about I mean, this show is nothing compared to how and I mean, like, and you

wanted to talk about it. And I had, I show is nothing compared to how, and I mean like- And you wanted to talk about it with Sandy? I had a bad reaction to that. I went out, I did run into Carly and Lori, and I was in a bad way. And I don't think Sandy quite understood the volume of what was going on because I wasn't- Communicating that to me. I wasn't communicating, I was drunk. Yeah, so- And I was't, I wasn't communicating, I was drunk. And I was upset and I was irate,

I was irate at somebody else. Like, and it unfortunately came through, like I was, because she was already annoyed with me at that point about me continuing to reach out. And it's not just like, I just want to make it clear. It's not just like, oh, he was reaching out to me, you guys. Like, oh, he was calling me and texting me. How dare I like, you know, how dare my boyfriend call me? It's not what it, oh, he was reaching out to me, you guys. Like, oh, he was calling me and texting me. How dare I like, you know, how dare my boyfriend call me?

It's not what it is, trust me, because that is, if he ever needed me and he came to me in a conscious, healthy way, just like, babe, I need you, I need to talk. I would drop everything and go across the country to go get you, and you know that. That's not what was happening, and that's not, it's not what we see. But it is a continued pattern and cycle of

whatever's going on in there affects his behavior out here. And then you you mix in alcohol, whatever, and you're not in. It's a it's not a healthy state of mind. Like, so what was happening that night, he was irate for a lot of different reasons. Me, I'm sure being one of them, just the whole experience and everything. The fact that I'm living with another man and he's by himself, I mean, that alone is torturous.

I 100%. The proximity was also. It was honestly ridiculous. That was, that's I mean. That shouldn't have happened. We honestly probably should have just left. Y'all were living above, you know, right? Yeah, we were living above him, like very close corners. I would imagine the point of the show is to trigger you guys.

Of course, and it triggered us to like the breaking point, you know what I mean? I felt like that was a little much. It was, it just was a lot. And no one else was living in that close proximity. We were in close corners. I don't know how you sleep, you know, so sleep deprivation, you know, emotional feelings, alcohol.

I was not at a good mental place. I think that's pretty clear. When did you know they were living above you? So I walked out to do like, you know, we do our interviews and it was one of the nights where Mariah, it's funny because you see it on the edit as if I'm like trying to look at into their door or something. And I, I walked out into the courtyard, looked up and you know, cause we separated during that Mariah and I were having a night where we're painting or doing something and I walked

out so she could do her interview. I was walked out to the courtyard, sat down, I looked up, I saw JR I was like, Oh, and, and you see me run inside because I didn't want him to have the visual of me and JR on the balcony together having dinner. I just didn't want him to have that visual. And I was like, there's no way that this is happening right now. So I ran inside, but cause JR had told me that you were walking around. I just didn't want you to see us. And that point, you know, sounds like things you've makeup. Like at that point, you're just going footsteps and time.

It's like, you don't, you start to make up things that, you know, are not true. And I, I don't believe are true because we've had some pretty definitive and honest conversations about that. And I think that I believe you and trust that those things did not occur. But I think that, um, it felt that way very much. The volume of that was turned up full, you know, full tilt in my head and I was going to bed thinking about what were you hearing in my head?

I was hearing that they, I mean, I do think you were hearing footsteps. And here's the thing I moved back into the apartment that he was living in and you can hear what Nick's saying, but I get it. I think what- You, okay, whatever. The noises in itself are far more removed from, and this is also something that I really need to,

I feel like I need to address is that they did have a very genuine connection. I don't think it's- It doesn't show, obviously. It looks like we're like, bleh, like not talking about anything. And what- They definitely look like you're into each other, for sure. Yeah, definitely you guys are into each other. So I wasn't show, obviously. It looks like we're like, bleh, like not talking about anything. And you definitely look like you're into each other, for sure.

Yeah, definitely you guys are into each other. So I wasn't like, that wasn't something I was just making up in my head that they were, it's like, she wasn't put off by him. She wasn't unattracted to him. She was, they were leaning into each other from the jump. And you could see that from the start. So that's why the whole, like,

when I found out that they kissed before they even moved in together, I'm like, well, if that's why the whole like, when I found out that they kissed before they even moved in together, I'm like, well, if that's happening that fast, what's next? And now they're living above my head. It's like you would hear a bird tweet and be like, oh my God, that's some kissing type of thing. Like it was just every noise you heard, you just went to the worst possible idea of what it could be. Yeah. I'm a creative person. So I can create things. I think anyone in that situation would, would go insane. I don't think, yeah so I can create things. I think anyone in that situation would go insane. Totally.

You have to be an artist. Yeah, I don't think you're. I mean, that's something that I could not understand in the moment. Like I look back and I'm just like, girl, like, come on. It's like so obvious, but I was so- What's obvious? Just like what Nick was going through and just,

he was alone, I'm with JR, and it's like, me and JR are super flirty and da da da. Like I could I could see that and in the moment I couldn't because I was so wrapped up in my own experience and the things that were happening with with me and Nick before the show during the show Was like overpowering everything. I didn't it had nothing to do with JR Honestly, and it had everything to do with JR honestly, and it had everything to do with me and Nick. And that's what you're seeing the night

that he comes to the apartment. And it's not me being like, first of all, JR is the one that literally was like, no, no, no, you stay back, I'm getting this door. Because Nick had been calling, I had been sobbing on the phone to Nick that night for hours. You see one thing and hang up, that's a very, very tail end

and that's not even exactly how it happened. That is after like countless conversations of me begging him like, hey, please, I'm not in a space to talk right now. Like, and he was not in the space to talk either. He was, and he wasn't respecting that. And obviously like- Oh, what do you mean he wasn't in a space to talk?

He wasn't in a mental, physical state to talk. He was very intoxicated. Like, like if somebody is calling you like, it's like, you know, how that's going to go down, I know because I've been down this road with him many times. I've seen him in that state many times before. And I've learned to just disengage when, when that's happening. Me engaging is not going to, it is not going to do us any good. I don't think anybody is good when they drink.

I don't think you've been your best self when you drink. I don't think I'm your best. Yeah, no, 100%. It's like we also have to take ownership of both sides. And I think that's what we've been doing so we can be clear about this and clean. And I also think it's still very like truthful that I was going through watching something, actually not even watching at that point, feeling, and that's what I was actually a little bit of a, I was concerned because I thought that I was going to see the show and

be like, wow, like you had nothing to worry about. And I just, I don't think that's true and I think that I did observe especially from JR side him genuinely feeling for and care for and he seems to be you know he seemed to be throughout it very protective of you and very much. You know I think he knew what I was going through with you. Like he knew I mean of course I was living with him. And so he would hear me like he knew I was going through it. I would be like really upset. And so that I do think that he got kind of protective in a way, like in a weird way. I guess, why did he feel like it was his place? That's not what I mean. He called you his wife.

Okay, that he's not being serious. I know that it seems that way. But like, obviously not his wife. Well, obviously, I'm just his wife. Well, obviously. I'm just saying, and I don't think if we asked JR if he literally thought you were his wife, it was just more his attitude. The attitude, of course. In terms of what he thought his place was.

Like again, I just kinda go back to, I imagine a What If Nellie and I did an experiment like this. Where it's just like, listen, I think the show is fascinating. I love how they are, why I love this show so much is like most shows are exploring like individuals pursuing love as opposed to people in your shoes

who examine like, relationships very much like your guys are. I mean, your guys' relationship seems to be like this poster board toxic relationship. And I even almost mean that in like a a compliment like we've all been part of these relationships watching you guys is like a window into like my past life and like I think anyone who's watching this if you if you look at not just your guys's relationship but a lot of these relationships it's very easy to see if

you're honest with yourself moments of your own vulnerability in these relationships but it's more like again I can't to me it comes comes down to like to see, if you're honest with yourself, moments of your own vulnerability in these relationships. But it's more like, again, to me, it comes down to a respect in terms of, I could lean into an experiment, but this is still my girlfriend going in, and for someone to jump in and assume a role, either, and I would believe either,

because JR does seem a bit delusional, but either he's just assuming that's his role or he feels like he's gotten permission to play that role. I get it, and I think with, there was disrespect, I mean, there was disrespect on my end, just not comprehending the whole situation in itself and being like, okay, wait a minute,

like, no, no, no, like that's my real life boyfriend. Like this is like kind of, this is a trial marriage. You know what I mean? Like there are certain things that like, don't talk to him that way. In terms of the night that he came to the apartment though, it is very different. I do wanna like say that.

It was like, things kept happening. And I think JR had just seen me so like broken down and upset over it that he was trying to step in. But I don't know, that was, it was a very weird thing. Like why did JR at any point just be like, just go talk to your guy, you know, like this is getting weird. Well, what had happened was Nick had told me like, I'm coming to the apartment.

And I was like, no, you're not. Like you will not come to this apartment right now. I don't want to talk to you. This is not a healthy dynamic. You're not in the right mental, physical, or emotional state that this is not gonna go well if we talk. And he came to the door and JR was like,

you're staying back there. I'm going to the door, because JR was pissed, because he lives there. And I was like, this is not actually happening right now. That's why I'm like so uncomfortable laughing, because I'm like,

this is not real life right now. There's no way that like these men are about to go at it. And I'm like, it was so uncomfortable. And I have a really bad nervous laugh, like really bad. You guys, I always got in trouble. I would agree with that. And that can be very difficult. It's horrible.

It's horrible. And there was nothing funny about that, by the way, like nothing. I was crying two seconds before that. And then I just, I was more of like, Jr. Being like, no, you stand back. And like, he like ran to the door. I was like, this is not happening, you know? But I just think that there was a lack of respect

and knowing what I know now in that moment, like I would have dropped everything and been there for him 100% because we're not in a normal situation. This isn't just like, oh, you know, he's having a breakdown, like, and we're back at home. And after the bar, it's like, oh, you know, he's having a breakdown, like, and we're back at home and after the bar. It's like, this was different

and he really needed me in that moment. I didn't show up for him and that really hurts me because I've showed up for you so much throughout our relationship. Like, I really have and like, that sucks, you know? That's like, it's really difficult to watch, honestly. I think you said in that moment that you felt violated and that it was so unfair to you.

Why did you feel violated? From his, the things that were happening off camera and if we wanna talk about it, but there was a lot that you guys are not seeing in the relationship and what was going on. I was trying to get her out of there. I was trying to use everything I could to, you know. But you weren't just like, it wasn't just like,

we need to get the fuck out of here. It's, look, it was very unhealthy in terms of the communication and what was going on. I should have loved myself enough in those moments to just leave. And honestly, like, I think that I, I let the, you know, the more emotional, hopeful, romantic, whatever part get the best of me. And I think that I was, I agreed to do this. Like I agreed to do this and I do have to take ownership of that. Um, I also went through something, you know,

that I don't, I, I, I honor that Mariah was able to stay stable and, and sane through it. Uh, it being there on my own and feeling the feelings that I was feeling it, I wasn't treating myself with the kind of mental clarity and health that I needed to, that I'm working on now. And I do think that Sandy and I are good mirrors for each other to evolve through separate relationships. And as you said, with the toxicity to it, there was, there was a dynamic in the relationship prior to that. As I said, when we started, she was a very push pull with me and kind of like wanted me when she wanted me, but then wanted

to do her own thing. And I finally set a boundary around that. But then I gave into the boundary and it kind of, it ignited this part of us that was a lot of fun and a lot of, you know, we had an incredible physical chemistry and we always had a hell of a lot of laughs together, but we weren't serving each other in that safe place that clearly I was needing in that time. So I'm curious, I'm going to describe to you my perception of your guys' relationship based off the show we watched, and I'm curious what parts of it you think are accurate. Yeah.

This is my perception of your relationship. The show portrays you guys as if throughout the season, it's like you're constantly giving Nick notes on how he's supposed to do this, and how he's supposed to this, and Nick is constantly apologizing to you for what feels like some things may be valid, some things it's just like,

it almost felt like Nick was apologizing because he's like I think I'm just supposed to apologize. I don't fucking know. But I love this girl and that's kinda how, that's the vibe that this show portrays you guys in. I understand that vibe but I think that what people don't see is that I was, I was absent moving into this. I wasn't checking in with her.

What do you mean by absent? Like I was just in my own, I was Like literally absent. Like he wasn't, he wouldn't call me, he wouldn't text me unless we were together, even when we were together. So you just flat out ignoring her? He couldn't I wouldn't say ignoring, I was

He wasn't present with me, you guys. Like I spent more time with my best friend and her boyfriend. Paint the picture for me. Cause like I can be very aloof and I can be very distant. And now I can be on a couch and I can be like, Nick, and I'm like, Nick, Nick, and like, I don't hear her. But eventually now he's like, bro.

But then there's like, we know couples where like some people literally like are, ignore their partners and are checking out. Like no, it wasn't ever like, I knew it was never, well, actually I didn't know if it was intentional or not. literally like are, ignore their partners and are checking out. No, it wasn't ever like, I knew it was never, well actually I didn't know if it was intentional or not. I just was like, do you, I felt like he was pushing me to break up with him because he was not around

and I think he just was in his own head going through his own things. It was just naturally like there was kind of a disconnect but I'm very much like, I need somebody in front of me. I'm really big on quality time. I'm big on physical touch. It was like, he wasn't physically with me. Like he would go sleep on the couch for like, just because he like needs to move around a lot, you know? And I'm like, or we would, we would do things like with our friends and he would never like, he can never

make it. He never want to come. So I'd be with my best friend and her boyfriend. And I'm like, where's my boyfriend? So it was actually kind of like an absent boyfriend thing. Did you think you'd survive the show? I don't know. Honestly, like I do think that we were at a really rocky point in our relationship. And I was like kind of wanting to just give it,

like give it my all. And that's what happened with me going into the experience with JR, whatnot. A lot of stuff happened like that we don't see with Nick and I, and I almost wanted to just like leave the whole experience. And I was like, I owe it to my relationship to give it my all and be with him.

And the thing is, it's like. We wanted different things. We just wanted different things. I mean, when it relationship to give it my all and be with him. And the thing is, it's like... We wanted different things. We just wanted different things. I mean, when it comes down to it, we went to Europe the month before, before we knew we were gonna get on the show. I had a friend's wedding that came up. She came with me.

She wanted to go to Mykonos. This is, and this is something I have to own. Like I'm really bad at making choices in the moment. I'm not a good planner. I get that. I go kind of like off the cuff. I definitely fly by the seat of my pants. Like if I'm gonna paint, I wanna paint all night.

Sometimes that takes two nights. Sometimes I'm not there during the day. And that is who I am. Like I have to own that. And that can feel very shitty for a partner, I'm sure. I don't have the same love language as she has. And I was trying to work on the physical touch aspect and get there because it just is not something I naturally do.

I think we had a, the other type of physical touch for us was intense and wonderful, but I'm just day to day, you know, hand holding and things. I, I somehow just haven't, I never developed that. I never developed that, that sort of, I guess, rhythm to how I show up. And she wanted to go to Mykonos, which was after that. I felt like Mykonos was too much overwhelming, but I agreed to it reluctantly, which I shouldn't have done.

And then I put her in a state of limbo, where basically I knew in my gut that I didn't wanna go. But instead of just me being assertive and saying, I don't wanna do that, and we're not doing that, and if you wanna do that wanna go. But instead of just me being assertive and saying, I don't wanna do that and we're not doing that and if you wanna do that, go, I kind of. You decided to go and be a baby? I didn't go. No, it's, yeah.

I mean, that's just the whole thing in itself. But that was literally like the week before we left for the ultimate. I mean, we came out and it was like one of our biggest fights and it was just this whole thing. I'm like in Europe by myself with like my friend. So you left her. She was by herself.

She was with her best friend. With my friend or boyfriend. But it's like, I went there because I wanted to be with you. We went to a wedding. It doesn't matter. I don't think that this is like that important, but that was. Well, I mean, you guys aren't on the same page. There is that. Yeah, no, no, no.

I think that's where it comes down to is I did think I guess my question for you is like, listen. It was really important to me. I just didn't know if it's like, I thought it was important for you to stay with me. In your next relationship, Natalie is a bit younger than me, right? And so when we got together,

we obviously got together because there was a physical attraction and then we were compatible. We enjoyed hanging out. When we finally were like, let's do this in date, there was an acknowledgement of our age difference. There was an acknowledgement of ways age difference, there was an acknowledgement of ways in which maybe we're not as compatible

as we wanted to be. And then there was a willingness, at least a recognition on both of our parts, but at least I'll just speak for me as a guy who is like, I'm about to date someone who is gonna want to and has the right to want to do things I've already done, is gonna wanna go to places I may not wanna go or that I've already been. And I can't just not show up and I can't just say go do that, I don't feel like doing it.

If I wanna be with this person, I have to meet her where she is and she's gonna have to meet me where I'm at. And I'm just curious, like as you look back on your relationship with Sandy, like what changes have you made in that department? Because your next girl, are you still dating that girl, whoever you were greeting in through again? I'm sure that at some point she's gonna wanna do something you don't wanna do.

And no- We're far more on the same page. I'm not, I'm just talking about when you're not. Because as compatible as Nellie and I are, there's always gonna be moments where, you know, we're disconnected or she wants to do something where I don't wanna do. And like, it's easy to make a relationship work

when you guys agree. Yeah. Right? Like it's when a couple doesn't agree and that happens for any couple. I don't care how compatible or how connected you are. At some point, there's moments of disconnection and how you work through that is kind of how any relationship makes it or breaks it.

I think there were other factors involved that made it really difficult to be on the same page or make certain decisions. And I think that's just kind of what, I mean that was for Europe, that was a big break. And it's not just about lifestyle decisions or Meek and O's or whatnot. Like who gives a fuck, honestly.

It's more about the behavior and like how you're showing up versus how you're not showing up. And that's just kind of around the communication. We had this weird, I don't wanna say role reversal, but I would say that I was far less, like my volume was far lower when it came to, you know, I remember you making a comment at some point, like, is there anything that upsets you? Like, and I think that I was, I was, it wasn't that I wasn't upset.

I just, I hadn't gotten to that point where I felt like, I don't know, I didn't feel angry and I didn't feel that it was serving me in our relationship. There was, there was a lot of frustration. Sandy didn't feel like she was getting from me, like the emotions in the volume of whatever she was desiring. And I think that Sandy is a fiery person. She's got a lot of like passion and artistry in her own way through life. And I think that just comes down to the fact that like we communicated poorly. Um, when I wanted, she didn't, when she did, I didn't. And we just, we kind of reverberated this, like this really deep connection through who we, how much we love each other as people, but continuing to kind of see that like,

it's probably isn't going to be a forever thing. And I was hopeful that that was going to shift. And honestly, when this came up, I was hopeful that that was going to shift. And honestly, when this came up, I was like, let's put ourselves in a scenario that really shakes things up and let's see if we can break through this together and find like a new road together. And it just, you know, I think everyone saw that it went the other direction. That doesn't mean that I need to, direction. That doesn't mean that I need to, you know, resonate in that negative negativity anymore. I forgive. I've, she, we've had like plenty of conversations. I want her to be happy. I hope that she ends up with somebody that, that she feels, you know, follows the spirit and the goals that

she wants in her life. And I think that it's been a really challenging test, but I will say through my process after the show and everything that I've done, she has been immensely supportive because I recognize that I was using alcohol and coping through numbing skills that were not healthy. And so I did go to check in and see, you know, what I could do for myself to change that behavior because I never recognized it as something that I really needed to get help with. And it's been, it's been hard, you know, it's something that is so socially accepted, especially on the shows like these where everybody's having a drink and people are, you know, moving it around. Like it's, it's everywhere. And it's really hard to take a step

back from yourself, especially when you're feeling like shit and, and look at that pattern. And I think that the one thing I will say is no matter what my frustrations were with her, with the show, with the breakup, she was always consistently supportive with me and me, you know, getting to a better place. There's a lot of decisions you have to make when you have a baby. And the one that I feel the most comfortable and safe making is using Huggies for our daughter River. The new Huggies Skin Essentials are here. A brand new dermatologist approved line of diapers, wipes, and pull-ups training pants are all designed with baby

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rocketmoney.com slash viall. Do you have any regrets on how you handled JR? No, I don't care about JR. I mean, JR is like, if I was JR, I'd be into her too. I don't think he handled JR in any wrong way. Yeah, I mean, I apologize. I was just more like, I wouldn't have apologized to him. Oh, you mean, was too over, yeah.

I would have been, I would have pushed back a little bit more. Yeah, they didn't get the whole combo. I mean, there was definitely, I'm sorry for showing up, but dude, what the fuck are you talking about? This is my girlfriend. Yeah, I was more like, you seemed way too okay with him talking about you. In fact, Scotty, which I wasn't, and I also was at the point.

Which that was just weird. That wasn't, I was not okay. And I also walked into Scotty and JR having a conversation about Sandy that wasn't about me. And I was just like, okay, like, I'm not sure at what point. And I felt, I felt like I was living in a kaleidoscope at that point. Like I'm, this is my person. This is the person that I came to the show with. She's the person I know the best and people are having conversations with her and about her as if they are involved with her more than I am. And

that was, you know, at that point, Caleb and I, you know, Caleb stepped in, I said, I got this, like, and that's when I kind of started to go towards JR and say, well, listen, I know that Sandy's telling me something, why don't you tell me what's going on? Why don't you tell me the truth?

If this is something that I need to be worried about, or I'm just making this all up in my fucking head and I'm losing it for nothing? Like come correct. And also what's your stance and what are you going through with Zaina? Because I know a lot of conversations going on about me and Sandy, but where are you with Zaina? And like, where is that for your relationship?

That conversation is obviously not captured, but I never had a specific issue, nor do I with JR as a human. If I was- No, he's way too cocky. I mean, this man thinks he is God. I don't know him. I don't know him.

I mean, he's like, everyone is scared of me, everyone wants to be me, everyone wants to date me, which I- I can't speak to, honestly. That's just what it looks like on TV. How do you see JR after watching it back? I mean, look, I, JR has this exterior shell,

and I kinda talk talked about it. I mean, I wish they showed more. I was like really trying to help him like break that down because him and I actually had a lot of conversation around his past, his childhood, his upbringing, his divorce, like, you know, things that were deep rooted for both of us. And so I feel like I really saw kind of like what's underneath all of their deep down. And I was kind of like vouching for that, but nobody sees it because that's not how he that's not what he leads with, obviously, and even.

I mean, honestly, even if I did see that, I know, honestly, like I don't have much patience for the guy or whoever, but maybe I'm more critical of men in that department. But like, I don't care about the guy who can open up to the girl he's trying not to hook up with or be soft or whatever, and then be an asshole to everyone else. That doesn't- Yeah, I mean, look, I cannot speak for JR. That's his thing. No, no, I'm not asking you that.

I'm just curious if you see him differently and were you surprised by things you watched back. I think in the beginning, honestly, I'll be real, I couldn't see that because we're not interacting with the other castmates, you guys. We're not allowed to interact with other castmates. You were literally just with this person. And so I didn't really see any of that stuff

until a little bit later. And as more time went on in his interactions with you and whatnot, and it would bother me because I'm a very social person. I'm very big on making you know, making friends and whatnot and just like being kind to other people. I know I might not look like that, but I really am. And I was like, why are you like, you know,

why do you have a problem with everybody? Like, this is just not how I am. But again, we're in this like weird experiment. You're matched up with somebody. You got to pick from one of five people there and once you're in there, you're in it. And it's like, there's a lot more that you guys just aren't seeing, obviously,

in terms of what we're working on, the conversations that we're having, how we're trying to show up for each other so that we can show up better for our partners and challenge each other on certain things. I understand that doesn't make any sense because you quite literally see zero of that. So why would anybody think that?

But with these really intense experiences, there's a reason it's two months, because you want to get the whole experience. And it's more than just what we're seeing, obviously. There's, you know, because at the end of it, it's like there is a decision for an engagement or whatnot. And you really are kind of going through like a trial marriage. I don't know, I do see things differently. Just like having over a year to kind of like process everything, having a step away from it and then now like seeing it as a mirror for sure.

I mean, I think especially at the reunion when they showed all of his clips of him continuing to disrespect Zaina when it wasn't even like time. Before it even got to you guys. Before it even, yeah, before it was even like he picked his trial wife. It was telling Aria he was gonna get her pregnant and like, you know, I feel like all of those things,

even the hall pass slip. I mean. So, I mean, I'll be honest. Like there were a lot of things that I didn't see when I was in there, because I'm just like fun and flirty and like, oh, whatever, me and Nick go into it, we're like, we're having fun, diddy, whatever.

And then it's like, and I realized that there was definitely a lot of things where like, I just shouldn't have even like gone along with it or I honestly, like I can see it in my face. I know I remember certain moments where like, I'm like, okay, can we not say that right now? Can we not talk about that?

Like, I just would get a little bit uncomfortable, but it's like, then we would instantly talk about, you know, spirituality or our families. And it was like, okay, cool. Obviously that's not shown, but you know, there were a lot of those comments that were just inappropriate. And it was just too much of it, honestly.

And it just was like, okay, enough. And yeah, I mean, and then seeing some of the things that he was saying, honestly, about me, that I had no idea about were really upsetting to me. And I just was like, you know, the whole like, wants to be with a white girl, no strings attached comment. Like that was, I just was like, wow, like that's really interesting because that's not

how I was perceiving like our connection or whatnot. And so yeah, that was upsetting to see and had I known certain bits of information, maybe I would have done things differently. You did mention feeling unseen in your relationship with Nick. I think that's unfortunately a very relatable feeling. Yeah.

So I am sorry that you felt that way in that relationship. You did at the changeover use some big words to describe Nick. Tormented, attacked. Yeah. I think we all are just confused. Like I think can we just have some content. Yeah, there's like, what are you talking about?

Yeah, like why did you feel that way? I mean, there's a lot of things that have happened in our relationship and through the process where Nick's emotional like volatility or instability genuinely just crossed way too many boundaries. And I think at the changeover, it was right after a big tipping point. And you can see it. I am so upset. I am clearly so mad. Nick is apologizing to me. We're like, what the fuck is this about though? You know, it doesn't really make any sense because why would he be apologizing to her?

She's just going through this trial marriage with Jerry. He's alone But there's just a lot more that that we can't see and honestly, it's just it's like it's it's relationship stuff And and there's things that Nick has struggled with. Um, I think More than you just basically, you know, I would yeah I was drinking and I was texting like crazy and calling like crazy. Could you give us some context? Because I think...

It's not like, I think she felt like I was doing everything in my power to ruin the experience for her. Not really though. I think that's the disconnect is like, you clearly didn't handle it well, but I don't know if anyone would in that position. And I think it's just more like- I can also, like I can kind of,

and I've gotten to this point now where like, if the relationship was solid, we would have come together, you know? I think she would have been less upset with the past. She would have been less upset with the contact. She, I think was upset at me leading into the show, which bled into the show. And then when I showed up like oh my God, I need you and she's like well, dude. You haven't been here

I mean that makes a lot of sense if you were that if you were that absent Yeah, you know your relationship. Yeah, like if you were I mean like were you giving like I'm an artist I need a paint last all night and and I can't talk like yeah I don't even care about that though. I support his art. I'm his biggest supporter of his art. I don't doubt that, but again, if you're just like... Yeah, running away from me. Having all these very rigid, I'm available, I'm not available,

I'm available, I'm not available. Was it like that? Yeah, there's a lot of instability with it and it takes a toll. Why'd you stay in that relationship? It was so hard. I don't know, I really loved him. Like I really did.

Like I just, it's like a weird hard thing. I mean, I still love him. I care about him tremendously. Why were you in love with him so much that you'd wanna put up with him? I was in love with him because he showed me, like he opened up my eyes to life. I really, like he really did.

He changed my world in like the best way. And like literally gonna get emotional, but he like, like we just had actually some of the most beautiful moments I've ever had in my life. And I don't know, it's like we did actually have a really beautiful relationship. He opened up my perspective. He opened up my heart.

Like I actually grew as a human from loving him. Most people grow through heartbreaks. Like I grew through loving him because there were a lot of challenges in there. And like there are things that he struggles with in himself and that like it, I really showed up for him a lot of ways. And I don't know, we just had the best moments together. And I really, yeah, we have a very deep soul connection

and he's just one of the most amazing humans that I've met. And it's hard because it doesn't mean that he's the right life partner for me or that we're the right life partners for each other. But I've never had a relationship where it's like, we were always so understanding of one another and so like free and just trusting. And it was healthy in a lot of ways until it wasn't,

you know, he really, like he changed my world. Like he really, he really has. What are you thinking? What do you think, feeling? I mean, I'm a lot of gratitude for the words. And I think that I don't choose people as partners that I think are not going to be something that I have. I mean, I do lead with my heart and my soul.

I feel like I felt like there was that soul connection from the beginning. I did feel there was a depth and energy to her and a spirituality that was like, so it resonates through me when I'm with her. But our lifestyles were challenging for me to be, feel safe. And, um, she's a big social life. She's, you know, she goes out a lot and I never felt like I was going to be unfaithful to that degree, but I didn't feel like I was. You felt uncomfortable with the environment she was in? Yeah, I just felt like it was kind of like a vacant space that I had already seen.

And I was curious what was filling her cup in that area. But I am different. And like that does fill her cup. And I think that I have some social anxiety and she has social integration. And she's like very comfortable walking into a room with a ton of people. And I am more comfortable in my studio or whatever.

You know, it's like, and I, it, it, so when it comes up, like let you go ahead, go do your thing. It's because it didn't feel like I needed to be a part of it, but I did feel like it be, it was, it is more a part of her life than somebody that I want to be with. And I think that it felt like I was maybe just wanting a slower pace for things. And I think that I was trying to organically kind of massage her that way. Like, look at how beautiful, like, us a house by the lake

and like chill and this. And she's like, yeah, but you know, what about this place in LA? And I'm like, you know, it's just, we would laugh about it and then the conversation would kind of end and we both kind of like, it wouldn't really come to a solution whatsoever and that was just I'm really not so okay with it. And I'm not asking for what I need in a relationship and like, not really putting myself first in certain ways. And then resenting or like quietly resenting through it and not, you know, just like actively

being a part of it. So, you know, it's, it know, it's really wonderful and magical to feel what she just said. I think that I have had a hard time through this, like, knowing that. I knew it in my gut, but like, I don't think that that description came within our relationship often. I think you would probably agree. What? What do you mean? You describing how much you love me and why you love me. Yeah, I mean, words of affirmation is not my thing.

It's really challenging for me to really speak up for myself sometimes and say what's on my heart and how I feel about certain things. Whereas it's really easy for you to do that. We do have different ways that we have sure love and affection. And I was definitely craving that. Like very much from her. And then we'd have these breakthroughs.

Guys just seemed completely not compatible. Yeah. Yeah. At the reunion, they brought out Vanessa and Dave, which I completely could have done without. You're right. I mean, it was- Unnecessary. Very unnecessary.

But Vanessa felt like it was her place, which I have zero respect for when someone, especially someone who you knew for about two days maybe, tells you it's time for you to deal with your trauma and to go to therapy and to get the help that you need. Because it's like, that's probably not gonna help, you know, outing that on a national television show. Sandy, how was that for you to hear someone knowing, I imagine, some of the stuff that he's been through in his life, kind of air out that dirty laundry on TV?

I mean, I was shocked. I couldn't believe that she was saying the things that she was, because I had no idea that that was her experience or that she even uncovered that. What she was saying the things that she was, because I had no idea that that was her experience or that she even uncovered that. What she was saying, it was like, why are, I felt like she was speaking for me almost. Like it was like, she was, you know,

articulating a lot of things that I very deeply was kind of going through in the relationship that I had been struggling with for years, that I haven't really been able to like verbalize or talk about. Right, because I was talking about you the whole time. Of course, of course she could give like that's. No, no, no, but Nick, it's like,

of course she knows that that's what your experience is because I'm telling her how much I fucked up. Yes, of course I'm sorry. I can't believe this is happening. How, you know, why would. No, but about it just, yeah, it just was really, it was really surprising. I had no idea that like, I'm like, how do you know.

Vanessa and I were also communicating after like friends. I thought Vanessa was a friend. She's not, it's obvious. But I do, I do want idea that like, I'm like, how do you know all this stuff? Vanessa and I were also communicating after like friends. I thought Vanessa was a friend. She's not. It's obvious. But I do, I do want to say like- That was some 15 minute bullshit right there. She should have stayed on her couch. I do want to say like that, it was like a weird thing where I'm like, she was almost kind of speaking certain things that I had felt,

but I had never really spoken up about. It was also kind of weird because I'm like, wait, are you his ex-girlfriend or am I? You know, like, so I just, it was a little bit interesting where I haven't really felt comfortable sharing certain things or talking about certain things. And she did, I don't know. And I, you know, I think that in some ways, like it kind of was describing some things

that I had been going through with you. Because I described everything I was going through with you to her, which she knew. Otherwise, why would she know? It was really interesting that she, yeah, but. There seems to be something that has happened that y'all don't wanna talk about or you aren't ready to share.

I mean, I think it's very clear. I was using alcohol and not on the show, but other things prior to and after, and I was numbing. And I have realized that there's something there and that I need to take care of that. And that I was... And not to diminish that because obviously that take care of that. And that I was. And not to diminish that, because obviously that substance abuse of any kind,

but like are we talking like you got drunk and text too much, or did you like say something like, you really shouldn't fucking say that, or you know what I'm saying? Like I guess that's the, I think Sandy was at. You guys keep referencing you drank,

and we get it, like you medicated. It's going through a hard time. You weren't your best self when you were drunk. I think it's more- You guys keep referencing you drank and we get it. Like you medicated. It's going through a hard time. You weren't your best self when you were drunk. I think it's more than just through the experience. Like, you know, I think there's been patterns in the relationship and a lot of people can probably relate to that, that struggle

with, you know, any sort of substance abuse. There's textbook patterns and things that happen within yourself and around with the people that you love and relationships. And it's really, really hard to navigate. And it's also hard to be in that from her end and not know necessarily how to support it because her relationship with it was different. And you know, she drinks in her and parties in the way that she parties and I took it to another place. And I was, you know, I think the numbing thing,

it's like just to be with yourself and be with your emotions sober and like let that be what it is has been a challenge for me. And I think that that created, you know, a bit of the way I was, I would check out or the way I would speak to her felt like, I don't know. I mean, it's your experience. I think my version of it was I was looking for comfort that I needed to work through, but I was looking for her to answer the question when I need to answer it within myself, trying to pour all of this onto her and say, can you figure out how to figure me out?

Right. And like, that's a lot for somebody who's also like not, and I'm not saying that she fell out of love with me at a certain point, but I think that it becomes, I've looked at myself through this and I'm not attracted to what I see. So I can't imagine that being a safe place or something that she wanted to continue in. And like, I think as a friend and as a human, we were always supportive, but I think that she was recognizing that that wasn't a space that she wanted to be in.

There's a lot of decisions you have to make when you have a baby. And the one that I feel the most comfortable and safe making is using huggies for our daughter River. I always tell Nick that when River's crying, she's trying to tell us something. And that's the case with most babies. They express it through cries and so we've turned to Huggies. The new Huggies Skin Essentials are here. A brand new dermatologist approved line of diapers, wipes and pull-ups training pants that are all designed with baby sensitive skin in mind. Their wipes are

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Learn more at Huggies.com. Once again, head to Huggies.com to learn more. Climate change, a problem so huge, how could I ever make a difference? I'm Marco Chiaunovet, climate reporter for the Toronto Star. I meet a lot of smart people doing really inspiring things in this space all the time. Small things that add up to big climate benefits.

Small things, big climate, wherever you get your favourite podcasts. The Climate Solutions Podcast is brought to you by SmartFlow from Enbridge Sustain. This podcast is brought to you by Smart Flow from Enbridge Sustain. Who's ready to level up their mental fitness and win the seconds of the day? Well at least that's my goal. Join me, Mark Champagne, on Behind a Human, a podcast where I dive into the stories and practices of extraordinary individuals. From billionaires to Olympians and cultural icons like Tony Hawk, each episode unveils the pathways in the mental fitness

strategies that propel them to the top. Now available on all major podcast platforms, here's Thriving Minds. I think numbing pain is very relatable. I've been through a lot of trauma myself and the way that I numbed it was just lying to myself and I'd be like, that actually never happened to me. Like, I don't know who that was, but it wasn't me. How did you get out of looking at alcohol and other things to numb that and to get to where you are now? I mean, it's, every day is a process. You know, I've had, I've had a couple, time for I've gone back. I did go to recovery. It was traditional, impatient.

And I felt a lot of community there, which was one of my biggest takeaways that I do tend to isolate when I feel badly. And that not being vulnerable to need a support system when I needed it. And again, just looking at Sandy to kind of be the guiding light for what I needed to explore with other people who have been through a similar situation. And I tried, like, I really gave it my all with trying to like be there for you and show up for you.

I would drop everything and go make sure he was okay if he was struggling with certain things or. What about like on a day-to-day basis? I mean. She's a, I mean. I mean, it's conversations and like. Yeah. I don't know, it's like, how do you like really show up

and support somebody that's going through, you know. I guess this is in general. How did you guys show up for each other in the relationship when it was good? I mean, we've had a lot of really, really good conversations around really heavy, hard topics. And I think just showing him the love and compassion when he was broken and like-

So you gave him a safe space to be vulnerable and to be open. I gave him a safe space, of course. Yeah, we were like, I very much, and I never judged him for any of it. I was very much a safe space for you to open up and share all that stuff with me. And I wanted to help. That was naturally what we wanna do as women

is just have solutions and help and nurture. And I was very, very nurturing to him through all of this. And, but also in, in turn, it was, it was hurting me too, you know, cause it's like, I have certain boundaries within myself and. You know, thing after thing would happen. And then it's like, I, I'm, I'm disrespecting my own boundary by, by staying in it. But I would lie. I would lie about using. Yeah. Like, why a lot? I mean, I think it's like, boundary by staying in it. But it's just-

I would lie. I would lie about using. Quite often. Yeah, like, lie a lot. I think it's like- It's a textbook thing, of course. It's shame, you know, and it's guilt, and there's a lot- Is it more than alcohol?

Yeah. Yep. I mean, I have a tendency, I've explored a lot of psychedelic therapy. Unfortunately, there's something in the psychedelic therapy world that is also a bit of a two-headed snake, and I got pretty into that.

You know, so, okay, yeah. You still feel ashamed of that right now? Yeah, I mean, I think the shame is in the lies, right? Because she did come to me countless times and say, just as long as you tell me the truth about what's going on, I can be there for you. But what happens is you feel so guilty about what you're doing that it doesn't, you feel like the rejection is the next thing to come, not support.

It's not sexy to be involved in something that that pulls you in a direction every time. And like, that's, I think as I look back and recognize, like the escapism in it, it's like, what, what am I not? What am I not seeing in myself that I need to go chase this feeling through K or booze? They're disassociatives, right? So I wanted to disassociate, especially when it comes to art. Sometimes it's easier to just disassociate and be free with that. I don't think drugs and alcohol are any stranger to people who are artists or, you know, or creative.

You know, there's something in that. It's challenging. It is challenging to to be sober and feel okay. But Sandy, did you feel like he chose the drugs and alcohol over you? Yeah, every time. When Nick was talking about like the the difference in lifestyles and the going out, are you single now? Yeah. Yeah, I guess I'm curious what you think about what he was saying in terms of just the different lifestyles or where you guys were in your life.

I guess more now, are you in more of your single era because now you want to go out more and maybe that kind of going out lifestyle is more conducive to being single or is it more like you want to find someone who also wants to go out? You know, I think, um, just like my social life has always been a big thing for me. I'm, I'm genuinely love human interaction and making new friends. Like I just love that. I just am. I'm a social butterfly. And so for me, going out is really just having fun going out and being with people,

dancing with your girlfriends, whatnot. Like it energizes me. I'm an extrovert, you know? So. How do you draw the line between being an extrovert and loving the social aspect, going out, hanging with your girls versus also being like, I'm in a relationship and like there's

going out and there's like being respectful. So I think for me is having a partner that also enjoys to go out. Like that we can go socialize with couples. And I don't need to go out all the time, you guys. Like I genuinely, I'm either a homebody or I'm out. Like it's kind of like one or the other for me, but something that's really big for me

that I've realized just through relationships. What's in between? I don't know. I think what's really big for me that I've realized throughout like through my relationships is I do want a partner that wants a similar thing you know it's and they have a social life too that they you know want to be around and it's not a like a shameful thing it's not something that I need to like completely get rid of. I don't think being in a relationship means like,

oh, well, that's it. Like we're gonna wipe away like our social life. That's, you know what I mean? There's a way to do it. Yeah. We're very social. I guess it just depends on what that social asset means. It depends on what it totally like,

do I need to go to the club with my man? I mean, maybe sometimes if we want to, but not like not all the time. I think there's just a level of socialization and with Nick, for instance, like he's way more introverted. I just have like an anti-club direction. But you wouldn't even want to go out to dinners, Nick.

You wouldn't want to go out to dinners, you wouldn't want to go hang out with friends. And we really had the best time ourselves, you know, hanging out on the couch and having our own dance party and whatever. But it's just, that's a lifestyle thing when it's a life partner that you do kind of want to be aligned with, because if not, that's a really big, like, that's a really big difference. But yeah, it's not just about like, oh, I want to be single because I want to go out.

No, I'll be single until I find the right person. I have to ask this. Did you have sex with J.R.? No, absolutely not. I will set the record straight. Right here, right now, literally nothing happened, passed a kiss with me and JR. I know it looks very bad.

It looks a lot worse than it was. JR was a bit performative when it came to certain things. That's my wife. Oh, like, you know, hey girl, what you doing? Hey babe. He was never calling me babe when the cameras weren't around, ever. Like-

He was performing. A little bit, yeah. He was, he would never call me, like it was not the vibe. That's why it's really difficult for me to like see because I'm like, damn, I really got, you know, it really looks a certain way, but- But didn't that bother you that he was planning up for the camera? You know what, honestly, I really got, you know, it really looks a certain way, but. And we were flirting. But didn't that bother you that he was planted up for the camera?

You know what, honestly, I'm like, I'm very new here. We're just like normal humans that just got thrown into this and then there's cameras around. You don't really know how it's all gonna look. Right. And you know, we kind of were like, okay, like we're child, like it's my child hubby, it's my child wife, whatnot, and like really playing into it.

But you know, there were certain things that he was playing up. And the guys night, for instance, with him almost insinuating that we were sleeping. Yeah, it was Nick's question, are you sleeping together? And he said, in the same bed? So I don't know what really happened because I wasn't there, but obviously there's editing and whatnot,

and it's like, oh, cliffhanger. But JR had told me specifically that he was kind of leaving it open-ended to be like, ooh, and I was like, why the fuck would you do that? Like that's not something to play around with here. I'm over here in every interview and every conversation being like, we're not sleeping together, we're not hooking up, you know, trying to lay that down because I owe that to myself. And I think he was kind of giving into like the drama of it a little bit.

And it really fucked me over. Like, I don't know. It just, that sucks. That's really hard for me because we didn't. Like genuinely, you guys, what you see is honestly worse than what it was. And that is the extent of it, period. And yeah, it's just, it's hard.

Like, Nick, you seemed very uncomfortable a lot of people are talking about it and it's a lot of like Two things if I don't think it happened regardless of it did or did it didn't happen I don't think it happened, but the perception is that it did that was my perception after speaking with Sandy I believe her I do yeah, I trust her I don't really we're not at a point in life where like, there's anything but support. She would have a reason to like, like trust me you guys.

Like it's- The relationship is, like there is no more of that. It's at this point, like radical honesty with each other about how we can best, you know, figure out what we did wrong in the relationship and move forward. You know, I'm in a new relationship.

It's not that part, that ship is sailed. But I think that in the experience I felt like there was a really heavy connection Regardless of what that meant whether it's holding each other at night or loving on each other or being intimate or being physical or even emotional all of that was unfolding and when I watched it I was like You know, whoa, you know, this is, this looks pretty fucking real. And regardless of if they had sex or not, to me, it looked very real. I do believe that it was a real connection. And I also believe that it would have been, it would have been,

I think everything happens for the right reason, right? Like had I not spun and like I was completely Zen and we got back together and like perhaps did end up with an engagement. And then I saw that like, then it would have been a whole nother mess of stuff to have to deal with. And I, you know, I think everything happens for the right weird twisted reason in some way. And like, I, I did feel that we were separating as a couple. And I do think that they both leaned into the experience pretty quickly and in a way that wasn't very settling for myself to observe.

But I do not believe that they had sex. Would that be said? We didn't do anything like at all. Sandy, I do apologize for, I mean, we've recapped the show from the start and I have said several times that I thought that y'all fucked. Obviously I haven't spoken to you in person.

So, you know, for you to look at me and say like, no, it did not happen. I do believe you. And I can imagine how frustrating and how fucking annoying it must be for everyone in the world to say you fucked a man. You know you didn't. Yep.

So I am sorry for my part. That's okay. I mean, look, here's the thing. I don't really take this type of stuff personally because we're on a TV show. This is what we signed up for. We're putting our life, our relationship out there for people to judge.

I'm a big fan of reality shows. I would be like, oh damn. So when I'm seeing this, I don't blame anybody for thinking that. Like, of course. But it's just frustrating because it's like that's not actually what happened that's not really but you know I think that's on us for being a bit too like leaning into the flirtiness and and you know

kind of leading with that when really that was like this in terms of our trial marriage and our connection it was mostly all like mental and emotional truly and it sucks that like you don't get to see any of those conversations our trial marriage and our connection. It was mostly all mental and emotional, truly. And it sucks that you don't get to see any of those conversations because people really are just like, you guys were just here to mess around and whatnot. And it's hurtful for me because I really gave,

I really worked on a lot while we were in there and I challenged JR to work on a lot too and that's where you hear me say, oh, I'm trying to train you. Like, obviously, that wasn't the right wording in that moment. But like, I was trying to challenge JR so much to show up better for either Zaina or any other person that he's with. We dug into like his childhood, his marriage, and just his mindset of things that he was holding on to. And I was trying to like, I got into arguments with him over these things. I'm like, you better be making Zana breakfast every morning

cause he would make breakfast every damn morning and was very much like wanting to just have it for himself. And so there was just a lot of different things that I was challenging him to, you know, think about the partnership over just yourself and the social media conversation, which we don't really see much of, but you know. I do also think JR is more at fault of this perception over just yourself in the social media conversation, which we don't really see much of, but.

I do also think JR is more at fault of this perception of the two of you than you are. I think if you were placed with someone else, I don't think people would be speculating on any of that. You know, I think. It was clear that he wanted people to think that, and he wanted people to think that he had a big old, you know. Yeah.

He was peacocking the whole time. Nick, I'm curious, final question. I know we have to wrap up. What did you learn from that tattoo? Fortune favors of both to keep getting more tattoo All jokes aside, yeah, I mean that's a wild story it is wild and there's no way I mean, he has this tiny on his hands. I'm a big believer that we learn. I don't believe everything happens for a reason. I think shit happens and I think we're either willing to learn from it or we're not. So what did you learn from that?

Because I hope you learned something. To read the stencil when he puts it on. Well, I wanted both. So this is not like, it was not some random mistake. So at some point you're going to get the other one. Yeah, I was like, I'm not, I mean, I'm either going to get- But really, you wanted Forge of Favor as the bolder? Yeah, I was either gonna get Forge of Favor as the bolder, or Love Conquers All. And then I was in there like super emo,

I'm like, I can Love Conquers All, let's do it. Like this will be, I'll show up. And then I had given him two stencils. I think I slept maybe 20 minutes prior to that. I think you can see in my eyes, I was pretty out of it. But also not the best time to get a tattoo, but I have more, I'm going to get more. Like it doesn't, but I do think that the right tattoo was put on my body

Maybe the lesson is don't get like a generic saying. Yeah, literally like like Nick also has enjoyed Also has enjoy the ride backwards on his chest because I wanted it in the mirror No else who has that tattoo nobody well you haven't He looks in the mirror. No, he do. You know who else who has that tattoo? Nobody. Well, you haven't seen everyone in the world naked. Anyways. Like, okay, Markey Diamond. Why are you coming at me right now?

No, no, no, I'm just saying. You're coming at him. He got the same tattoo as his arch rival on accident. You know, I'm just saying. I didn't know he had it, but he's also not my arch rival. I'm just fucking with you. I think anybody would have been into Sandy that was gonna date her.

Yeah, I think he gets way too much fucking credit than he deserves. I think that I was a little concerned about the authenticity from the beginning and I did express that to her. With him or? Yeah, I just, I felt like I was, again, you know, part of me was protective and I didn't think that it was like necessarily, I don't know, just didn't feel right, something felt off. But I don't have, I think there's a lot in this show

that's like, people are experiencing this, people are experiencing that, and then we're seeing clips and then people are saying this, people are saying there's a lot of telephone going on and then there's the humans that are experiencing trying to figure out if they wanna stay together for the rest of their lives. And-

Well, I think we definitely want to thank you both for being so vulnerable and so open and especially you Nick for sharing some of things that you went through and experienced. And I know that probably wasn't easy. So thank you for doing that. I'm sure it's gonna help a lot of people. I mean, just sitting on this couch together

props to both of you. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, I think it says a lot about like our relationship and just like, you know, the love and respect that we have for each other as humans. It was a really crazy thing that we went through and I feel like it kind of brought out the worst

in all of it, but like, for us to be able to come together and do this, I mean, I think it says a lot. Well, thank you guys for coming, I appreciate it. I wish you both nothing but the best. I really do, it's been fun getting to know the people and it was very fun to watch. Sorry.

If nothing else. You did make good TV. You're welcome, guys. You delivered, yeah, no. Happy holidays. I'm like, Merry Christmas. Thank you, Mrs. Claus. Your backs are, should be sure. I need a massage because my back hurts.

You guys did carry the season. Carrying the season. There is that. Thank you guys for listening. Happy holidays. Happy holidays, guys. Bye. From now on, we're going to be doing a live stream of the show.

We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show.

We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. We're going to be doing a live stream of the show. From navigating headlines, fentanyl poisoning more prevalent than COVID deaths, car accidents, and even suicide. To a proven strategy for success. If you do that every day, it changes the way you go through this world. That then translates into something physical as well as something chemical in your brain.

Critical and relevant information to help you navigate through life. It leads to a higher degree of success. Fill in the blanks. Available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. The mysterious death of a toddler. The gruesome killings of prominent billionaires. The cold case of two murdered women. Death in a small town.

The billionaire murders. 40 years cold. I'm Kevin Donovan and This is Suspicion, a podcast from the Toronto Star. Listen for a new season with a new case, early 2025. Meanwhile, look for new bonus episodes of billionaire murders at thestar.com or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.