The Viall Files - E933 – Going Deeper with Miranda McWhorter

Episode Date: May 14, 2025

Welcome back to The Viall Files: Going Deeper edition.  We’re SO excited to be joined by the newest Mormon Wife soon to be gracing our screens, Miranda McWhorter! What was her part in the swinging scandal? Where does she stand with Taylor today? Why are Jesse and Demi fighting on social media? And most importantly… Will MomTok Survive? Tune in to find out.  “The swinging had nothing to do with my divorce." Listen to Humble Brag with Cynthia Bailey and Crystal Kung Minkoff! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humble-brag-with-crystal-and-cynthia/id1774286896 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@humblebragpod   Listen To Disrespectfully now! Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/disrespectfully/id1516710301 Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCh8MqSsiGkfJcWhkan0D0w   Start your 7 Day Free Trial of Viall Files + here: https://viallfiles.supportingcast.fm/  To Order Nick’s Book Go To: http://www.viallfiles.com  Are you struggling with any sort of dating, relationship, or life dilemma? Do you want all the answers? Email [e-mail] with your question in the subject line to express interest in appearing on the show!  To advertise on this podcast please email: [e-mail] or go to: https://advertising.libsyn.com/theviallfiles   Thank You to Our Sponsors: GetContact - Take control of your calls! Block spam, identify unknown numbers, and stay connected securely. Getcontact is available now on the App Store and Google Play—download today! https://getgetcontact.onelink.me/SMWD?af_xp=custom&pid=magellan_ai&c=TheViallFiles BEAM - Beam is giving our listeners, parents or not, their best offer yet. Try their best-selling Dream Powder and get up to 40% off for a limited time. Go to https://shopbeam.com/viall and use code VIALL at checkout. OpenPhone - OpenPhone is offering our listeners 20% off of your first 6 months at https://OpenPhone.com/viall  Tonal - For a limited time, go to https://tonal.com to get $500 OFF your Tonal purchase plus a FREE 4 YEAR WARRANTY. Timestamps: (00:00) - Intro (00:46) - Taylor’s Video (07:23) - Miranda’s POV (22:59) - The Falling Out (42:46) - Joining The Cast (51:01) - Convos With Chase (53:22) - Coming Into The Group (55:46) - Fighting On Social Media (01:03:55) - Chopping Block (01:06:31) - Performing For The Cameras (01:10:16) - Misrepresented  (01:15:35) - The Situation (01:22:01) - Advice (01:27:06) - Outro Episode Socials:  @viallfiles @nickviall @nnataliejjoy @miranda__mcw @ciaracrobinson @justinkaphillips  @leahgsilberstein @dereklanerussell  

Miranda, welcome to the Vilephiles. Thank you. Thank you for having me. We are very excited to talk with you. I feel like it's been a long time coming. It has. Years in the making. Years in the making.

I actually, when the whole swinging scandal came out on the internet, I'm pretty sure I DM'd you on TikTok. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, we gotta get you on. I know. At that point you were-

I had some traumas to work through back then. Yeah, you were like, it's like a couple years, give me some time. Give me some years and some therapy under my belt and then we can talk about it. Yeah, you were like, give me a couple years, give me some time. Give me some years and some therapy under my belt, and then we can talk about it. Yeah, you were definitely giving different energy than Taylor at the time. Oh, for sure. Who was obviously out there being... Being Taylor.

Being, you know... Got her respected. Her true self and putting out the story. What was that whole experience like? Oh. Like when it first like dropped. Like did you just get on TikTok one day to scroll and then you saw Taylor's post? Well she went live first.

So it was, I had multiple people calling me and messaging me and they're like, are you seeing Taylor's live? And at this point, this was, I wanna say like two, three weeks after our fallout. So it wasn't like right away. So Taylor and I weren't really speaking at the time. And so when I get on, I'm like, oh, oh, okay.

Yeah, very jarring. Even Taylor, I don't think expected it to be what it was. I think the way that she thought about it in her mind was just giving more context to something that, you know, she never, I think when you hear that she cheated and she had an affair, obviously her mind is going to a place of, you know, a lot of shame where she feels like there was more context that kind of led to that, that I think, I don't know, I just helped people understand it a little bit more. And we've talked about that now, but I understand her reasoning

for wanting to give that side of it. I just wish maybe that she would have done it a different way. And I think even now, looking back, I think she probably would have maybe done it a different way too. But I mean, we're here now, so. Yeah, we are here now. So. Yeah, we are here now. So from your perspective, there were rumors about

just tailoring her relationship amongst your community, which prompted her to want to like, tell the whole story of the whole swinging scandal. Well, the affair had gotten out at that point. And so I guess people were commenting that she had cheated on her husband. And so I think that was a really triggering thing for her because she felt like there was a lot of context that was necessary that like led her to that point.

What was the state of your and Chase's relationship when Taylor went live, when all this started coming out? It's so interesting because I wanna say, oh, we were in a good place, but then I feel like it was as far as surface level good goes, you know what I mean? We already obviously had issues. You don't really end up in a situation like that if you don't have issues, but I feel like

they weren't a day-to-day type of issue. And so I think it was kind of those problems that we had in our relationship was they were masked by a lot. And so I felt like on the surface, like we were, we were good. And the issues were also like issues that we had kind of always had. Like what? I think one thing, for example, is like, I just felt like our communication wasn't like great a lot of the time. And I feel like Chase is a very passionate person, a very emotional person, and that's for better or for worse.

And I think that he has big feelings. And I think that that really serves him as far as being a father goes, because he is very passionate about our children and very supportive and one of the biggest hype manual ever meet, but at the same time, because he's so passionate, he can also get, he can be very easily triggered,

he can have a short fuse. And that was one thing that was very touch and go and he was hot and cold in that sense throughout our relationship. But I feel like, again, that was kind of, it wasn't something that was so at the forefront just because it was kind of always a reality in our relationship.

And at the time when everything came out too, like we weren't really participating in anything at that point. We'd already had our fallout, like I said this weeks later. So I don't know, I feel like we were just kind of adjusting to life without really having the same friend group that we had. Because I do think we spent way too much time together as friends.

I think that- The four of you? Not the- just like our friend group. Right, okay. I mean, the four of us too, I feel like we- I mean, people forget that Taylor and I were friends for five years, like leading up to this. And nothing ever happened until toward the end. There was never like anything weird or- it's very like we would get together and have like door dash nights and our kids would hang out and it was like a

very seemingly normal friendship. And then I think toward the end of our friendship, when we like had more couples that we were hanging out with and so on, and then we were drinking here and there. And I think that's when obviously things took a turn. And I think a lot of that has to do with getting married so young in your prefrontal cortex not being developed. Or you just like have it horned up enough. That too. It's just like, you know.

Right. And experience for sure. Yeah. More experience. I mean, the frontal lobe stuff, I think is kind of more of like, it's not like, you know, when we're 22, we can't think for ourselves and things like that. But I think more realistically, like you said, it seems to be like a lack of experience. Now more than ever, right? Because 20, 30 years ago, before like hookup culture was what it is today, where everyone's just kind of out there

and using sex positivity as a way to just kind of have sex with everybody, seemingly without consequences. And yet when you're still connected to a very conservative church and organization, where there's still a lot of taboos around sex and a lot of suppression, regardless of what's happening in the outside world, you guys are still meeting at a very young age, getting married at a very young age. You were 20 when you got married to Chase, right? So like, I gotta imagine it must be difficult

even in the Mormon community, because it's not like you guys are insulated in a bubble. It's not like you're not interacting with even, even Salt Lake City, I'm guessing has people who aren't Mormon. Yeah, it's actually predominantly not Mormon. Yeah, right. And so, whether it's media,

you get porn on the internet, you have all this access to these things while still trying to live this, you know, devout lifestyle. I can see how temptation enters into a relationship or a group of friends. Yeah, I mean, you do. You have so much access to so many things, but you also have a lot of expectation. And I think that is a dangerous combination when you're involved in high demand religion, because you naturally, as every human does, has desires, temptations, and so on. And then when you have a social and religious expectation, it makes for difficult circumstances for sure. I mean, we've heard Taylor's version a long time ago, from your point of view,

how do these conversations unfold? Was it just more like we're all together having a door dash party and someone says, let's play spin the bottle when we're drunk and then it kind of unravels from there? It was never like conversations that led to this. It was, we were already all like hanging out, having drinks, so on and so forth,

or maybe like one of the guys would like Dereme and Taylor to kiss or something like that. And then it was like, kind of from there, I guess, is what would lead to other things. After the first time that happened, did you go home with Chase and kind of have a conversation with your husband at that point and be like, okay, what did we think of that? Was that fun for both of us? Was it weird for one of us? I think there's a lot of people that think that there were so many instances where that would happen. And that wasn't really the case. And there were other things that happened that Chase and I weren't involved in.

But as far as him and I go, there wasn't these set-up swinging parties where everyone would get together and swing. That's not the way that it happened. No pineapples on different lawns. Right. No keys in a bowl. Yeah. Yeah, no. Um, and in fact it's funny because there's so many things that I've found out about like the swinging world that I'm like, that's the thing. I didn't even know there were apps that people could use to swing. So I'm like, I don't know, maybe I make a bad, bad swinger.inger. But yeah, I think that there were definitely conversations that were had.

I think for me, I was very, very firm with the things that maybe other couples had done that like I was not interested in doing that. And that's something I told Taylor as well, like the first time that anything further than kissing had happened with her and another couple, she came over and we were talking and I told her, or she asked me, she's like, is that anything that you and Chase would ever be interested in doing? And, and I was like, I mean, I'll be honest, the only way I would be interested in doing that with anyone, any of the other couples, if the other husband was someone

like Michael B. Jordan, and unfortunately that's not the case. So yeah, I mean, I feel like we did have conversations, but I also, there wasn't really like a sit down of, these are like strict lines, strict boundaries, because it wasn't like, it was never like, this is like a world we're going to explore. It wasn't like we want to be swingers. It was just kind of circumstances we were like, we got ourself into and then like things would happen and then maybe like afterwards we're like, oh, like that was kind of weird. Is that something you regret not doing?

Oh, for sure. I mean, I think I regret pretty much anything that happened to be honest. But also I think that there's a lot that I've learned from it. And, you know, in some weird twisted way, I think that there's a level of gratitude've learned from it. And, you know, in some weird twisted way, I think that there's a level of gratitude that I have for it now. Yeah. Is the regret more centered around people knowing?

And here we are having, you know, it's been two years removed. And obviously it's our first time talking to you. And it's a relevant topic given the show that you're on. And there's still a lot. Is it centered around more shame and the fear of, yeah, the fear that this will always kind of follow you is like a scarlet letter or is the regret more around maybe my marriage wouldn't have fallen apart had we not partaken in this type of activity?

The swinging had nothing to do with my divorce. I don't think that played a role in the slightest actually. So I think there were other issues that led to that being more of an okay thing, I guess, in our mind at the time. But for me, I think back then, for sure I think shame was a big part of it because now, I mean, obviously I can talk about it openly.

I feel like I've worked through a lot. I have regret for the way that I handled it. I also think, I mean, at the time I was going through a faith crisis that I know I knew about. So I think then that happening, I'm like also dealing with having to confront that with my family on top of everything else. Right. And his family as well, our friends that were Mormon, it was a lot. So I think shame was a big part of it, but to be honest, I think the biggest part was not really being true to myself. There were a lot of instances that I knew that I was uncomfortable and I like didn't really, I wished I would have have been more firm in certain boundaries. The cabin party

where we played spin the bottle, we were staying there for two nights. And I made up an excuse that my nanny had something come up and I went home. I didn't stay the second night. Chase stayed there and I just told them that I had to get home to the kids because I just woke up feeling so sick to my stomach. And I was like, that was just like not me. And I think that was like, what was hard for me is that I was just like, I'm acting out of character. And that's not me saying that anybody made me do anything. But I think that's exactly it,

is that I knew that that's like, you know, on me. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, obviously like what you guys partook in is this untraditional kind of relationship, right? It's not for everybody. No. I suppose so like, if you were to try it, like there might be a lot of people who might go,

oh, I was into that. Yeah. That was a fun thing. They discover a kink they're into. And other people might be like, you know what? Tried it, I'm good. Yeah, you know? Right?

Like even some people who might like be confused about their sexuality. And maybe they make out with someone of the same sex out of pure curiosity only to be like, I guess I'm in fact straight. Right. Yes, exactly. And other people might realize

that they really enjoy that experience and dive a little deeper. Totally. Yeah, so that makes a lot of sense. After that cap and party, was that the last time you and Chase partook in any of that or was it, did you continue after you had felt uncomfortable? I think that was it.

There was only two times where we ever kissed anyone. And there was one other instance that I don't remember if it was before or after. That was like, it was like me, they just blindfolded me and Taylor. It's all still kind of a drunker blur to like me, they just blindfolded me and Taylor. It's all still kind of a drunker blur to be honest. But they blindfolded me and Taylor and like we kissed a few people and that was like, that was either the last time or right before that time. But those were the only two instances where I ever did anything with anyone aside

from my husband. And I think that's another thing is a lot of people think that that like we were all just, I don't know, having crazy orgies and giving blowjobs. And I'm like, no, I kissed some people weird for sure. Embarrassing, absolutely. But I don't think it's what people really thought it was. And I think that's why I responded in the way that I did. Just because when Taylor initially came out on her live, she said that everyone was hooking up with everyone. And so my, like, I was like, that's not what happened.

And so I think that's why I kind of was like, no, I was not involved because I wasn't involved in like the sense that I feel like it was being portrayed. Yeah. And so I think I like justified it in that sense, but what I wish I would have done and said, no, like I, I wasn't involved in that. That's not what happened. Like this is what happened, but obviously it wasn't really, um, something I ever would have come out with.

So I, you know, with Taylor, she had kind of like thought through what she was going to say, you know, what the narrative was going to be. And so I was just kind of like scrambling. Um, and I'm like, how do I handle this? Because this looks so bad. And even, even the truth of the matter is still like weird and uncomfortable. So I'm like, I still feel like I didn't even want to be honest about what actually did happen.

And I, you know, looking back, obviously I wish that I would have, but. I think one Taylor has put out there that like couples were having sex like with each other around other couples. Is that something that happened? That was only around like Tate and Taylor for us. And it like happened, I think once in Park City and then. Like they were having sex with like an audience. No, no, no, no, no.

It was like you, like just in the same room with your partner. Okay. So it was like not with. So like you and Chase are having sex on one couch. But we're not, no one's watching. And they're having sex on a bed in the same room. Yes, yes, like something like that, yeah.

So it wasn't like for spectating. Okay. But like I guess in a way you guys could see each other if you wanted to. Right, yes, yeah, yeah. And again, I guess in a way you guys could see each other if you wanted to. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I think like that, and that's another thing for sure, that it's like, oh yeah, like weird, but also like not hooking up with other people's partners. It seems like, you know, Taylor, we've really enjoyed getting to know her and enjoyed interviewing with her and getting to watch the season. Like, you know, it seems like Taylor is a very dynamic

person who will say things. There's a lot of truth to what they're saying, but they're vague enough to allow people to run with theories. Yes. Do you think that's intentional on Taylor's part or do you think that's just a product of Taylor? You know, she's been very vulnerable about having her own demons and her own issues she's working through. And do you think it's just a product of her just very sometimes

messy figuring her own life out at the sometimes the sacrifice of other people's being involved? Both. Both. Both. Yes. I think that, I do think that there is an aspect for Taylor where I think she genuinely in some circumstances does want to kind of like hide other people's identities for certain and not just, I'm not just speaking in this situation. I mean, you know, like Taylor's great at, at a screen grab. Like she, she's great at getting people's attention and like, you know, posting those clout videos that they get a lot of traction.

She's great at that, great at marketing herself. And she knows what works. She knows what she's doing, right? And I think most of the time when she's posting videos, that's kind of the approach. But I do think like in real life, I think sometimes she will kind of try to like hide identities or be vague to like save other people's feelings. But I, and I think it's unintentional the way it comes off, because I don't, I mean, she can't really like expect every theory that people are going to come up with.

But I do think when it comes to an online sense, I think that she does kind of have an idea of like which direction it could go or be hopeful or at least have like a few different avenues and then you know I think especially with the swinging thing people ran with a ton of different avenues like things that they didn't expect. I know with your podcast there were some things that she said as well that like people were taking what she said and having theories. Like can you remind me because that was such a long time ago. Yeah, I think with the way she spoke about what happened with her and the guy that she had an affair with. And obviously, I feel like I still don't know all the details surrounding that, the actual details surrounding that. And that wasn't Chase? No, no, that wasn't Chase. But just some things that some comments that she had made on that.

I think a lot of people were assuming different things that I, I still, I, I can't really speak on obviously whether it was true or not because I wasn't there. Like what were those things? Like the, the assault, like that, that people are running with. And I obviously, if that's the case, like that is awful and like makes me sick. But I also am like, you know, in her mind, she was like, Oh, that wasn't what I was trying to say at all. She's like, I did not think that people would would think that that's like what happened. She's like, that's not what I think happened. But again, like then you like you hear the story and you're

like, Oh, I could see why people would think that that's what happened. And so I think obviously, that's nothing I would speak on just because I, you know, I don't know, but I like the situations like that, for example, you know, people can run with quite literally anything. But I do think Taylor is very good at, at posting online videos, knowing what works and I think she can get a good read and a good feel for what people will kind of assume. And I think maybe there was a level to that with her live,

but I also think that there's a level to that that she didn't expect it to become what it was. I cannot tell you how many times I have had River on the verge of falling asleep and then my phone rings and I look down and it is a spam call and it ruins everything. It ruins everything that I just worked so hard to do until GetContact came into our life.

GetContact is an app that helps users identify unknown calls, block spam and filter unwanted calls. It provides caller ID services by leveraging a global database of phone numbers. The app also includes features like fraud detection and messaging. Sorry scammers, but you're not getting to me. The reality is is that your cell phone number isn't as exclusive as you think it is,

making it people who want to spam and send you unwanted calls and texts a reality of life these days, but not with get contact. They have caller identification, spam and fraud prevention, call reason display, secure messaging, and SMS. So if you want to make sure that you are filtering all those unwanted spam calls and texts so that you can prioritize whatever you want whether it's putting your baby to sleep, enjoying quality time with your loved ones, staying present in meetings, all possible with GetContact. Take control of your calls, block spam, identify unknown numbers, and stay connected securely. GetContact is available now on the App Store and Google Play.

Download today, that's Get Contact available now on the App Store or Google Play. One thing we all know as parents is sleep comes at a premium. You're so concerned that your kid is getting a full night's rest that you miss out on it yourself. It's so easy to get into a cycle of sleepless nights, exhausted days, and feeling like you're falling behind

everywhere else. And when you're in that cycle, you know you're not showing up as your best self at work, as a parent, or with friends and family. That's why we're so excited to share something that's made a real difference in our life. Beam's Dream Powder. Dream is a healthy nighttime blend packed with science-backed ingredients shown to improve sleep so you can wake up refreshed and ready to take on the day. Even better, Beam was created by a parent who knows firsthand

how precious good sleep is. So you know that when they were making Beam, they were relating to you. When we found Dream, everything changed. We started sleeping through the night without tossing and turning and started waking up feeling energized, ready to tackle our day. No more grogginess. It really was a game changer. Dream is made with a powerful blend of all natural ingredients.

Reishi magnesium, L-thionine, apigen, and melatonin. It's designed to help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling amazing. And unlike other sleep aids, there's no next day grogginess, just great restful sleep. I can always tell a difference when I take Beam's Dream Powder versus when I don't. And in the mornings, I actually wake up feeling refreshed

versus incredibly tired and groggy, and I'm ready to take take on River who's a toddler and goes nonstop all the time. Beam has already improved over 17.5 million nights of sleep helping people across the country wake up and feel their best. Here's the deal, Beam gives our listeners, parents or not, their best offer yet.

Try their best selling dream powder and get up to 40% off for a limited time, go to shopbeam.com slash viall and use code viall at checkout, that to shopbeam.com slash viall and use code viall at checkout. That's shopbeam.com slash viall and use code viall for up to 40% off by supporting Beam. You support this show and all of us fellow parents out there, place your first order of Beam and start getting your best sleep tonight.

Like you mentioned before, you and Taylor were friends for years before any of this. And there clearly was a falling out. How did the falling out really happen from your perspective? And I guess, yeah, like how were you able to reconcile? Or did you even reconcile before you decided to join the show? Oh, we didn't. Um, well, okay.

I, this is what's hard is that Taylor and I, obviously we live in the same area. Like we had kind of ran into each other here and there. And I thought we were like, okay. And then she posted a video about a podcast that I had done. I said something about how I wasn't going to do the show. What was it? There's something along the lines of how I wasn't gonna do the show because of Taylor,

but I said that it wasn't a right fit for my family at the time. And what people didn't really know is how bad my marriage was struggling at this point. Had I done season one, it would have been my divorce. And I think that would have been very difficult for myself and for my kids. And that was the biggest reason. But also, to me, I don't feel like it's a secret that like Taylor and I weren't good and there was still a lot of hurt there. So it didn't make sense for me to put myself in a position at the time where I

just didn't know if I could really do that. So you were offered the opportunity to join the first season. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From, from the beginning, I mean, they had approached Camilla and I and Taylor. Okay. And we had plenty of calls about it.

I think another thing that people think is that it was like when I had said, oh, like, maybe I'll consider if Taylor's not on. The reason I said that was because this was during, like, the arrest where they didn't know if she could be on or not. But it was never like, pick me or Taylor. Like, obviously, Taylor is the obvious choice. I'm like, I am like self-aware enough to know that.

And she makes great TV. So I, it was never that it was like, oh, if Taylor's not, then maybe I'll consider it. But even if you did at the time, wouldn't it be understandable if you were not wanting to be around Taylor? Right. And that's exactly it is that I'm like, I haven't tried to hide that. Like I'm very, I feel like I've been pretty forthcoming about the fact that I'm like, we weren't good. I don't think a lot of people want to be around people that maybe make them feel like uncomfortable or so on. And then again, like the marriage stuff, like that played a huge role too.

And ultimately I wasn't going to know like whether I needed to make the decision before I knew like what the verdict with Taylor was going to gonna be So my ultimate decision was not based on that. Yeah, I did did that podcast and she was upset because I had said that I decided to ultimately decided that it didn't feel like the right fit for my family and She was under the impression. Also, we weren't speaking at the time so this was all going through like management stuff and like things that our management, her management, my management, like are kind of conversing about.

So it's not even me and Taylor having this conversation. And she had heard that I turned it down because I didn't want to do like be around her and didn't want to do it because of her, I'm also like yeah but again it wasn't like so what the soul yeah the sole purpose and she posted a video about it and so I thought we were like okay and then she posted that video and it was very like I was so shocked and taken back I was like wait what was the video I would actually love to find it I think it was like it was some sort of like voiceover something I think at first because then I rep I posted a video is like a response Which is like very unlike me like throughout like all the swinging stuff everything like you took the bait

I oh I took the bait at that point. I was like I'm just because I think that time felt very During like the swinging stuff. I'm like I know like she's mad at me There's like tensions are high, but I also was just like not okay mentally during that time. And it was hard for me to do anything on social media. I'm not really one to like do a lot of like petty back and forth videos. And I, and like, again, like Taylor's really good at it. It's something that she has pretty much always been good at.

I mean, that's why like she gained a following in the first place. But that was, I think, the first time where I'd ever responded to any of the videos that Taylor had really posted, just because it felt so unwarranted to me. Because I genuinely did not think that I was saying anything offensive or hurtful. That was not my intention. From your point of view, what was she upset with you about?

That I didn't say that I that she played a role in my decision to not do the show. Because I just said it didn't feel like a right fit for my family. Like the I guess the scandal like was she upset with anything you did or you're a part of that? Like almost. Oh yes. Yeah. So people I think I think it gets a little bit misconstrued that I walked away from our friendship because of Taylor's affair. And that was not the case. I found out about it the next day. You know, I had to do a lot of prying and I was like, Taylor, like, obviously something happened. I'm here for you. Like, let's talk about it because, you know, it's very, we all know something happened. And after a while, she, she made a comment that implied that they had done something and I was like, okay. And I remember like after the phone call, just sitting there and being like, huh, okay, like, how do I go about this? Because for me, it was never like I found out

that she had an affair and I'm suddenly like, let's go like tell the world, absolutely not. I mean, she was still my best friend. And I was like, okay, like what do I do with this information? Because it wasn't just her telling me and no one else knew. Everyone like in our friend group knew that something had happened.

And so I was like, okay, let's see how to go about this. And I didn't say anything to anyone until she had opened up to Tate about it. And then like, you know, our friend group knew. But it was never about that for me. The thing was that was because of the whole her and Chase thing. And it wasn't even as much the information as it was her lying to me about it. And that's what was hurtful because I get a call from, I actually posted a family picture. And posted some family pictures, I get a call from Camille and Camille was like, hey, because Taylor had told one of our other friends that Chase had said that he had feelings

for her or something like that at the gym. And then she told Camilla and was like, I found out this information from Taylor. I feel like Miranda should know. I don't know what to do with it. And Camilla was like, okay, well, now what do we do with this information? And meanwhile, I obviously know nothing about it. It feels like everyone around me knew everything knew about it.

And I just felt like I was just in the dark, which obviously was a very hurtful feeling after finding out and that everybody knew like that information, except for the one person who probably should. So then Camilla calls me and she's like, Hey, I just saw your family picture. I like, I feel like I should picture. I like, feel like I should tell you this. Um, like I wouldn't be a good friend if I didn't. And she told me and you know, of course I immediately text Taylor and I'm like, Hey, um, is this true? And she was like, no, like that's not true. Like that's like crazy. And then like later, like denied

it multiple times again. And then it ends up becoming like this whole thing. And she came over to my house and like our friend group all came over to my house. And that was actually the night everything ended up blowing up. But that's how she ended up coming over. And then, you know, she was drinking a little bit. And then she like went home with a friend and then Brayden went picked her up and that's how like that whole thing ended up happening. But that was like the same day. We had a phone call too then I don't know if it's the next day or a couple days after and initially she had said that he said that he was in love with her and then then later on the phone call it was

that he had feelings for her. And so I just felt like things like kept kind of like shifting and changing. And I were just like, you know, and of course, like I'm wanting to believe my husband, but at the same time, I'm like, I'm assuming asked to confront him. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And you know, he's, he's denying it. And he like told me that it was a, it was like kind of taken out of context. He's like, I think like, I like if, if we kept doing stuff like this, I think that I don't know if it was like take and develop things from around it. Like I could develop things for you. It was something like similar to that. Like all in all, I don't really care

at this point. It doesn't like, it didn't play a role in our divorce. It doesn't, makes no difference to me now, what's true and what's not. Um, but I think for me, there were already like other things leading up to this that Taylor had done that I felt like we're crossing some boundaries and that like had hurt my feelings a little bit. And so by this point, I think like the denying of, of something like that and the trying to like keep it from me, especially me being her best friend, I think that's what I found very hurtful. And then I like find out that she approached him at the gym. I found out about this during this time,

but this had happened before I think Chase said that to her, I guess, allegedly. And she approached him at the net, the jam and was like, Hey, I had a dream about you last night. And he was like, Oh, like what kind of dream? She's like, you know, what kind of dream? And so I was like, Oh, that's like a weird thing to say to your best friend's husband. And so that like, you know, just made me feel uncomfortable. And so then of course, like, no, having that in mind, I'm like, I don't know

what to believe, like, is she making it up? It did. He tell her that I was just like very confused and really it like didn't, like, no, having that in mind, I'm like, I don't know what to believe. Like, is she making it up? Did he tell her that? I was just like very confused and really it like didn't, again, it didn't have to do with the affair. And so, you know, and so many people are like, how could you leave Taylor in like such a like vulnerable time in her life? And like she needed you. And I'm like, I needed her. I needed her and I needed her to be honest with me. And like, cause I was there for her. Like I was fully prepared to be there for her throughout the affair and divorce and, and I would have. And I think obviously like the, the guy she had an affair with his wife is still to this day, a very, very dear friend of mine.

She's one of my closest friends. And so you're really, you're really stuck in the middle here. Well, yeah. And at the time, like we were friends, but her and I are way closer now. Okay. And she's a very, she's always been a very good friend to me and I really value our friendship. But again, at the time, we weren't as close, but we were still good friends. And so I think that was hard because I was also like, I feel so bad for her and how could you guys do this to her?

But at the same time, I'm like, and Taylor's like, but Taylor's my best friend. And I'm like, I don't know, like what, yeah, it's very like middleman, what do I do? How do I handle this? That's also tough when you're like best friend or not, if your friend's doing something that you don't agree with, like that's when being a friend becomes a real challenge.

Exactly. Because like, is being a friend, you know, hiding their secret? Is being a friend holding them know, hiding their secret is being a friend, holding them accountable. Like, is there a balance there? It can be very challenging. Right. And I think that's when I knew again, our, our

friend group knew something to happen. Right. And there were already like things kind of leading up to that, that I think both of their partners were a little bit like suspicious about. And so when I had found out, I told Taylor, I was like, you have to say something because it's gonna come out.

It's gonna come out and it's gonna be better if it comes from you. And of course, although I was like, I'm in your corner, I'm here for you, I'm trying to be here for you, but yeah, it was a very difficult thing. So your friendship ended with Taylor because of what her and Chase had said or not said to each other

and what she did not tell you about. That is why your friendship ended. Before your friendship ended, Taylor had an affair on her husband and you were trying to be there for her. But then all of this information about her and Chase starts coming out and so you kind of distance yourself. Yes, but it was back to back.

So it was like, it was like the phone call was like me being like, okay, like I'm here for you. Like they're gonna find out. So like, it's going to be better if it comes from you, which is what she did. Like she was ultimately the one who went to her husband and opened up about it. But it was that was like, boom, boom. So it wasn't like she had the affair, it came out, I was like there for her.

And then you got a call from Camille. It was, yes, that was all like in the span of, I don't know, like a few days or so, I wanna say. So it wasn't like, I was like there for Taylor for weeks and then it happened, it was like all. So that's, I think why people also think, I didn't wanna be friends with her strictly because of only the friendship.

Gotcha. And then how long after you had stepped away from your friendship with Taylor because of her and Chase, did she go on her TikTok Live and announce the swing? About two weeks, I want to say. Two weeks, okay. Yeah, about two weeks, I would say. Wow. Do you think you and Taylor are now on the same page of that timeline or events of that whole situation? Yes. Okay.

But- If she listens to this episode, is she going to be like- Yeah. Okay, sure. Yeah, I guess. I mean, I hope so because we've talked about it. And I think there was just the number one thing, and Taylor will agree with this too, that I think was an issue, and has been an issue multiple times for multiple reasons,

not even just the whole swinging thing or whatever, is we've had the worst communication through it. Taylor and I really never, we never had hiccups. We never had like in our friendship, like we really were always like, so solid. And it was toward the end, like there were some things that kind of made me go, Oh, like I don't want that. Or like, that's, you know, that like, isn't a great feeling or things like that.

And then I think those things compiled with her being dishonest about the chase thing. It just was a lot at that point, but leading up to that, like it was pretty smooth sailing. So it's not like we have, you know, the natural ebb and flow of a relationship that you have with anyone where there's ups and downs resolution. Like we didn't really have like downs. It was really pretty consistent. And so I don't think we really knew one another's communication skills and you know, what was our strong suit and what was not. And so I think we found that for her,

when she gets triggered in that sense, she's very vocal and takes it head on. I am the type of person where unfortunately, I'm kind of like, you know what, all right, let's cut it, I'm done. I don't even care to talk about it. And I think both come with faults. And I think that throughout filming

and talking about our fallout, I think we've recognized that really like communication or lack thereof, I guess, our communication was just not what it should have been. And there are so many things that I've opened up now about that she's like, oh, I had no idea that you felt that way. And I'm like, yeah, well,

that's probably because I didn't bring it up and I should have. And so I think that that was our biggest downfall. And I think people will see that like throughout the filming process regarding like multiple things. Do you think you'll ever get back to the state of friendship you were at before the swinging,

before all of this stuff has happened? I don't know. I don't know because, I mean, we're also in a way different phase of life. I mean, if you would have told me and Taylor back when we were at our closest that we would both be single moms and divorced in a matter of years. We probably would have been just so mind blown. Um, yeah, our lives are both so different now. Different from each other's or different from what it was. What it was.

Yes. Um, because I think we have a lot to relate to on now. And I think that it's, it's hard to prioritize friendships in the season that we're in of life right now. And people will see that on the show as well. When you're struggling with anything mentally and then you throw motherhood into that, and then you're a single mom and a working mom, there's a lot. And so I think that it's difficult to prioritize those friendships all the time,

where I feel like when we first started MomTalk, it was kind of like just what we did, because we were stay at home moms and we were kind of growing a platform, but we were stay at home moms. And that's just not our reality really anymore. And it's great, but I think that things are just so different and I think right now

we're just kind of taking it one day at a time. And I'm just grateful that we are able to like joke about it now and, and laugh about it and be around each other and not have it be triggering for either one of us really. If you're running a business, you know that every time you miss a call, you are leaving money on the table. When every customer conversation matters, you need a phone system that keeps up and helps you stay connected 24-7. That's why you need OpenPhone.

OpenPhone is the number one business phone system that streamlines and scales your customer communications. It works through an app on your phone or computer, so no more carrying two phones or using a landline. With OpenPhone, your team can share one number and collaborate on customer calls and texts like a shared inbox. That way, any teammate can pick up right where the last person left off, keeping response times faster than ever. Plus, with AI-powered call transcripts and summaries, you'll be able to automate follow-ups, ensuring you'll never miss a customer interaction again. So, whether you're a one-person operation, drowning in calls and texts, or have a large team that needs better collaboration tools,

OpenPhone is a no-brainer. See why over 50,000 businesses trust OpenPhone to manage their business calls and texts. OpenPhone is offering my listeners 20% off your first six months at openphone.com slash viall. It is o-p-e-n-p-h-o-n-e dot com slash viall. And if you have existing numbers with another service, OpenPhone will port them over at no extra charge. OpenPhone, no missed calls, no missed customers. Tonal, hey, life gets busy. You know, I do not have time to pack a gym bag, go to the gym, go into the check-in, into the locker room, unpack my bag, get a trash.

Mainly because he cares about our family. And since we have Tonal, he's able to stay at home and do a workout with River right next to him. It's so cute, it's so fun. Can't wait till the lake house is done. There will absolutely be a tonal gym in there so I can still work on this sexy dad bod while at the lake. What I love about it's kind of an all-in-one gym.

First of all, it takes up almost no space. We know how aesthetically pleasing weights can not be in your house. There's just no good place for metal sitting around your house. But with the Tonal Gym, it's sleek, it goes up against the wall, it looks like it has a purpose,

and you can do a full body workout with top notch instructors. Tonal provides the convenience of a full gym and the guidance of a personal trainer anytime at home with one sleek system. Designed to reduce your mental load, Tonal is the ultimate strength training system, helping you focus less on workout planning

and more on getting results. No more second guessing your form, which is the best part. Tonal gives you real time coaching cues to dial in your form and help you lift safely and effectively. After a quick assessment, Tonal sets the optimal weight for every move and adjusts in one pound increments as you get stronger.

So you're always challenged. Tonal lets you choose from a variety of expert led workouts from strength to arrowhead to yoga and mobility to keep you coming back for more. Honestly, this is a great Father's Day gift if any of you want to treat your man, treat your husband. For a limited time, go to tonal.com to get $500 off your Tonal purchase plus a free four-year warranty.

That's tonal, T-O-N-A-L.com for $500 off plus a free four-year warranty, tonal.com. So now we are embarking on season two and you are now a part of this cast. How, what happened and what were like, what was the timeline for you to not be a part of season one and then decide to join? Did you make first content and say,

hey, I kind of want to be part of season two one and then decide to join. Did you make first content and say, Hey, I kind of want to be part of season two or did you get a phone call from someone saying, Hey, are you sure you don't want to be a part of season two? I, uh, a phone call. Yeah. A few days after season one aired, seeing if I had changed my mind. And at that, at this point, I'm divorced now and I was like, I don't know. And I would say obviously like the decision making process because of that was easier.

But I mean, I signed my contract the day before we started filming. I was like so all over the place with making the decision. And a lot of that I think really had to do with my family. My family is still very religious. And although they've been like very supportive, it's still a lot for them. And I think that they've seen me go through a lot

over the last few years. And I think that they were just rightfully concerned for me and my mental health. And I think that the church, that's something that they hold very near and dear to their heart. And even though I've kind of stepped away from that, it's something that I still try to be respectful of for their sake and for other loved ones.

But yeah, I think it was definitely a difficult decision to make. But I couldn't really deny this time around that like last time I kept trying to make the idea work in my head and then my gut was telling me something else. And I felt like it was kind of flip flopped this time around and every time I thought about it, I'm like, it probably just isn't the right, I'm sure not anything great really mentally and for my kids could really come from it,

but I kept feeling otherwise. And so I'm like, you know what, if I've got to eat my words, I'll eat my words. So then I was like, you know, let's do it. Was part of it, I mean, there must have been a part of you that saw how big the show became and how successful it was. And certainly after season one, it still seemed like the dynamic of the group

was relatively positive, minus like it seemed like Whitney was kind of been on the outs from the group. It was a relatively like non-toxic environment, at least as a fan or someone who interviewed the ladies, that was my perception of it. So like as one of the OG moms of MomTalk, I mean, there must have been a little like, not resentment, but like, I don't know, like, why am I missing out on something I helped originate?

Right, right. I mean, yeah, there was for sure a level of it where I'm like, I've gone through a lot of trauma, I might as well get paid for it. When people were like, you're only back for the money, I'm like, I'm not back for free. Like, I'm not doing this for charity. But at the same time, like, I also,

because of the whole swinging scandal and the state of my mental health back then, you kind of recognize like what's worth it and what's not. Right? Like I talk about this a lot throughout the filming process, but I feel like the beginning, the first, I don't know, eight months, almost like a year of my daughter's life was like, it's kind of a blur and like, sorry. I just didn't want to like that to happen again. Why was it a blur? That was during all like the stuff coming out. And so I was just so disassociated. And I think, thinking back now, that's like the regarding

my kids, that's the part that is still a little bit of a wound for me because I don't like I was fully myself. And in turn, I don't feel like I was fully a present mother. And so I like my big concern of mine was like getting back to that. Even though like I'm like, this could be great for my kids, right? I'm a single mom, like being able to really, first of all, like hit the thing with Taylor head on once and for all, that was like almost an empowering feeling, but also I was very fearful. Just like I was very fearful of when

everything first came out. However, I had a fear that I would end up back in that state again. And especially this time not being in a partnership and being a single mom and having to like my kids depend on me for everything and I go through it alone. Yeah and go through it alone. And like obviously, you know, Chase and I had our issues, but also like there were a lot of, we had a lot of strong suits as well. And I do feel like we were very much there for each other during that time in a lot of ways, you know Regardless of like my hurt. I think that he did show up for me in ways that I needed at the time So I think That was a big fear for me is like what if it doesn't go well for me?

What if I do get a bad at it or because really I mean I think a lot of people are expecting to see more about the swinging stuff on season one, right? But that wasn't really it was mentioned, but it wasn I think a lot of people are expecting to see more about the swinging stuff on season one, right? But that wasn't really, it was mentioned, but it wasn't really a lot. I knew that if I was like coming on. It's gonna get brought up again. It's for sure. And I was like, I'm not going to do it unless

I'm fully prepared to do that. At this point, like I had already like done like some therapy. I'd already like, I felt like I'd worked through a lot and I was, I feel like the difference between season one and season two, like where I was at was astronomical. Even though it wasn't like that big of a gap, I think through my divorce process, I feel like I changed so much. Yeah. No, it makes a lot of sense too. And just the, you know,

it's a challenge with the world that you're a part of because there's, there's a lot of excitement, fascination, privilege that comes with being on TV, being an influencer, you know, it's, you know, it's a job for sure. We gripe at opportunities. It's like, Oh, I got to do this. When you compare it to real work, if you've had, you know, I've, we've, I'm not sure about your background. I imagine you've had some real work, you know, Nellie, uh, before she got into this world with me was an accomplished, sort of, you know, Nellie, before she got into this world with me, was an accomplished

social technologist. I was an accountant. So when you think about that, it's like it doesn't feel like real work. And then there's a guilt associated like you have of like, well, if this thing I choose to be a part of affects my life in any way negatively, then I asked for it and I deserve it. And that's exactly how it feels. You know, and things like that because of the privileges. You know, it's like the, am I selling out? You know, it's like. That's exactly how it feels.

And the thing is too is that I'm like, I think when you have like even a taste of that, like when you have a social media platform, right? And then there's a whole scandal involved. You get enough of a taste of it to realize that like, like it wasn't for me making the decision to do the show. Was money an aspect of it? Absolutely. But the fame scared me.

Like that's not something that I was interested in. So I had to weigh like, what do I do? Is it worth this? Is it worth? And ultimately you don't know. And that's kind of the hard part is you're going into it knowing that it's a gamble. But you know, yeah, I think, I think even in the podcast that Taylor listened to that I did a while ago, I said something about how I already like was exploited on

the internet for when I didn't ask for it. Like, I don't know that I want to ask to do that again and put myself in that position when I'm like, I'm choosing to put myself in that position when I'm like, I'm choosing to put myself in that position last time I didn't. So then it does definitely feel like, you know, you know that it comes with privileges and I'm fully like aware of that. But it is kind of like when you've complained at all or the hard parts or I mean, I'm away from my kids this week for a full week.

I've never in my life been away from my kids for a full week. And I was very emotional about it, but I'm like, there are so many people who have to be away from their kids for so much longer and people who have to go to work every single day and take their kids to daycare. So then I'm like, I don't get to be sad about it because I chose this, but then it's also like, you still have that emotion come up, you know?

It's a mind flake. It's a whirlwind. Yeah, it's definitely a whirlwind. What conversations do you have with Chase prior to saying yes to coming on the show? I mean, Chase doesn't really, one thing you know about Chase is he just really doesn't give a shit about a lot.

He either really does or he really doesn't. Again, being the passionate person he is. And regardless of everything that him and I have been through, I will say still to this day, Chase is one of the most supportive people in my life. And he was very like, if you choose to do this, like I got you, support you. And I think that he's been supportive in me doing it the way that I want to do it. Obviously, like I will say one of our biggest strengths as a co-parent relationship is that we do not speak

negatively of one another to really, I mean, you have your people you vent to obviously, but in front of our children online, nothing like that. And it's though it's hard sometimes, especially when I'm like, I still want to be authentic to like my truth and my reality, but I also want to protect your kids. Yeah.

I never want my children to see me talking shit on their dad online. Yeah, you can have, it's like, yeah. You can be an authentic person and still have your boundaries. Now I have this show, sure. I hope that our audience thinks we're open and is happy with what we choose to share about our lives.

But we don't share everything, nor do we feel like we need to or want to. And it comes to fan, you know, fan is short for fanatic. And you know, I appreciate fans. But sometimes not all fans are the same. Every fan has different expectations. I think the challenge with social media is that fans have this perception of this incredible access to you and you have access to them through DMs, through comments.

Yes, they think they're entitled to the information. Sure, and then our brains feel like, oh well, you know, we want, again, there's that, I need to be grateful for this. This is a dream come true experience. Like, I can't lose my fans, so I have to make sure that I am almost in a way acknowledging them or listening to them.

Or, you know, it could definitely be a real, you know, my part. A thousand percent, right, yeah. Yeah, like I feel like I do kinda owe it to them. Like I do choose to share my life, but I also am like a human that like deserves to have boundaries and respect and privacy sometimes.

And it's a hard line to toe, for sure, absolutely. Were you worried, outside of Taylor, cause you guys had your friendship, fallout, drama, whatever, but coming into this show, you have an established group of women that regardless of you starting Mom Talk, they, I guess, took it over and really ran with it

and had its success without the scandal. Yes. Were you worried about being welcomed into the group? Well, for sure. Yeah, no, I knew that I, that I was kind of walking into a line and sitting there for sure. And, uh, again, weighing the pros and cons, you kind of, you know, what you're getting yourself into.

And I think when it came to filming, I kind of just went into it thinking, I'm just going to expect the worst. That way I'm pleasantly surprised if anything better happens. So that's kind of the approach I took. Were there any women in particular that were you felt more judgment from or criticism from than others? Yeah, Michaela for sure. Okay. I was very surprised. I felt like she came at me pretty hard and I was just mostly because like her and I weren't very close prior to like I would consider as friends But like it wasn't you know a deep friendship or more of like an acquaintance friendship Yeah, and so it was surprising Michaela and Macy seem incredibly sweet

But they also seem the most devout and conservative with their faith and then simultaneously just from a plan perspective And a lot of ways seem the most judgmental. I feel like Jen is probably the most devout. Yeah, I don't know. I would say Jen. Michaela and, aren't they like the sinners? Michaela left the church. She's actually not Mormon anymore. She's not anymore, okay.

No, no, Macy is. I would say Macy and Jen are the most devout. I would say Whitney would be number three to me. Okay, but like yeah, Michaela does seem. But I can see why you would think that. She can hold the grudge. Yes, she can. She can, she can.

And sometimes it's shocking because Michaela is very like. Quiet in the mirror. Very quiet, very poised, and then sometimes like she'll speak and you're like, oh, oh, okay. She'd be like, yeah, very gentle, and she'll be like, fuck that bitch. Yes, that's exactly, yeah.

Like, okay. That's exactly her. And like, it's funny. Like I honestly think it's funny. And I think looking back, and knowing Micaela as well as I do now, too, I think that that's something that, like, makes me laugh, because that is how she is, and that's why I was so jarred. Because I didn't know her well enough to know kind of, like, her persona

versus, like, her actual, like, personality. And now that I, like, understand her more, I laugh about it. But yeah, she was surprising. The girls are fighting on social media. I'm sure you have seen or been following, but seems like Jesse and Demi, who season one seemed like the closest, one of the closest.

Seca thieves, yeah, just absolute best friends. I think Demi said that Jesse has her blocked. They're fighting in the comments. Where do you stand in this? I say that I'm Switzerland, but also there is a direction I lean, but their fallout, obviously it really is like, it has nothing to do with me necessarily. but I think when you see patterns in someone and when you see people do things to their friends, it naturally kind of makes you go, I don't love that. And sometimes it does make you wonder, should I distance myself from this person?

I don't know if they can do that to a friend, then who's to say that they can't do it to me? And it does kind of make you, even though I might not be like, oh, like I hate this girl. It's not really even necessarily that, but it is kind of, it makes you be a little more inquisitive about it and maybe even a little more just careful. And you tread lightly in these situations too, just because it is a lot of girls with a lot of opinions and a lot of emotions. And I think, yeah, even though I definitely have an opinion on their fallout, I think that ultimately I'm like, I don't want to be involved, you know, I lean a direction and that's where I'm at. But, yeah, it's, it'll get messy. You'll see it get messy. You'd rather not say which direction. I don't know if I can. You know, and I get you can't necessarily spoiling, but like in terms of which, yeah,

like without maybe giving the why, I'd love to know your opinion. Yeah, yeah, no, I think that when you are someone who is really fighting heavily to push a narrative, I think that it's never a good look. And as someone who was very adamant, like wasn't involved, like don't look at me, nothing happened, wasn't involved.

Looking back now in my situation with the swinging scandal, I'm like, oh, I think that there was a level of projecting. Totally, like if I'm being totally honest with myself, because was I involved in what, like a lot of people think I was? No, but was there truth to it? Yeah So then for me, I think I look at it through that lens where when one person is being very adamant Nothing happened pointing fingers everywhere. I just I feel like it

brings up just some questions and I think that's kind of what Demi is doing right now, where it's like, no, no, no. And based on a lot of conversations that I've had with Jesse and with Demi, both separately, I feel like Jesse has been very forthcoming about things that happened. And the whole reason for their fallout

made a lot more sense to me after hearing what Jesse had to say. So you think Jesse has been very forthcoming with everything that might be revealed in season two? Yes. And this is at this point where like present day, where I'm at right now, my relationship with Jesse, what I know, how I've seen things unfold,

I feel like Jesse has been from the time really that it even any information about anything that came out, I feel like she has really taken it head on and been very forthcoming about it from my perspective. Okay. Oh boy. Okay. Oh boy. Okay. Well, I guess let me ask you this.

Has Jessie admitted anything to you that she did something pretty like outside, well, that shocked you? Yes. Okay. Yes, she has, yeah. Okay. I guess like to add to that question,

it's my perception that again, like season one, you know, as great as it was, seemed relatively like vanilla, not vanilla. I mean, hell, it was a hell of a season. It was great to watch. But a lot of the drama like Jen and Zach, you know, and it followed a lot of like just the relationships or the challenges in Mormon culture with young marriages and things like that. You had Whitney having a fallout with the group

and Whitney almost seemed fine with it and she was pregnant and kind of like, you know what, maybe didn't like the drama. Season two, it seems like- Deep. Yeah, things are getting dark. Their friendships are being questioned. They're ending.

Who in the group do you think, and it can be multiple, it could be zero, has been most affected and changed as a result of the attention, money, fame, or success that this show has brought to any of these women? Ooh, I would probably say maybe, I mean, it's close. I think there's like multiple that I'm like, oh, maybe, maybe, but I would probably say ultimately,

maybe to me. Okay, why? I think she was like a fan favorite in the first season. I think it's easy for that kind of thing to go to anybody's head a little bit, but I do think there was a level of entitlement. And you know, I think maybe, you know, it's totally a subconscious thing, but I think that that kind of created that somewhat in her.

And I don't know if going into season two, if she thought that there was going to be like a level of immunity because of that, or I mean, when you've done one season, I think you don't really, you know what to expect, but you don't really know what to expect. And I think everyone's been in it long enough. And I think at this point, even though I don't have another season under my belt, I think I've seen enough to know that no one's really ever safe. You know, I think relationships change when you're filming a reality TV show.

It's, there's a lot that goes into that right and that's not just your Relationships with the people right there's a whole world working around you as well and there's just been a lot that has happened that does make me feel like there was maybe a level of entitlement from having a good season that came from that. When it comes to the Jesse and Demi fallout, and thank you for sharing your opinion

because I know it's delicate. You wanna be careful with your words, but as you pointed out, you're leaning more, I guess, team Jesse for lack of a better way of saying. Right. But you don't sound completely confident. pointed out, you're leaning more, I guess, team Jesse, for lack of a better way of saying. Right. But you don't sound completely confident. You're open to being wrong about that and kind of just, do you think more might be revealed

or do you feel like it's a lot of she said, she said right now and right now you find Jesse's version to be more believable? Are you pretty firm in your opinion or do you think it's possible you could be wrong? Oh, I think it's possible. Yeah, I would be very shocked. Like I feel pretty firm in my decision, but I also, I mean, I'm always open to being wrong. I think that like, maybe it's my trust issues speaking, but I feel like I think anyone can really spin their own narrative. I think a lot of people can be very convincing. And it's hard too, because there's also like in that situation, specifically,

it's not just the two of them with the fallout, right? Like there's, there are other people who play a role in that. And then you're also hearing that side and it adds another dynamic, right? Where you're like, okay, then you have to put that into consideration. You know what they say, there's three sides to every story. And so I think it would not, I would be shocked, but I guess I wouldn't say I would be too surprised. But again, like I am, yeah, I am pretty firm in where I'm at with that. But you never know. I mean, you never know.

And when you say other people involved, are you talking about Marciano? Mm-hmm, yeah, and there's been a lot of conversations there. You've had? All of us have had. Obviously, Taylor and Dakota's relationship, we know, is very rocky. Jen and Zach, we saw season one, that kind of fall apart. Whose relationship do you think

is kind of like next on the chopping block from your opinion as like the weakest? Jessi and Jordan for sure. Yeah, definitely Jessi and Jordan right now. I think that's, Leila and I were having this conversation a while ago that I think it just confirms for me the reason why I didn't want my relationship to be on reality TV. I don't think it's... And granted again, I think that these are all like, there are issues with all of them that were already being had, right?

I truly believe that. And I think you can also see when you have a firm foundation, I think like Michaela and Macy not to say they don't have their issues, but I do feel like they have a pretty solid relationship with their husbands. And it feels like it's been playing out very nicely and that everything's just seemingly rainbows and butterflies for them. And then the people who already had pretty difficult issues and struggles in their relationship, those are the ones that are really struggling.

And I think that when you're in this environment, it's already difficult, but when you throw in it being so public, and then you have all these people that are opinionated around you, it creates a very difficult dynamic. And I think that for me, I don't know that I could be married

and be in this situation. I mean, I think it would be a very difficult thing to try. Even with like a solid foundation, I mean, it's just, it's hard. I think it would be really hard and I commend them for trying, but I also am like, it's enough like as a mom to have to like deal with it all. But then a relationship on top of it, I think it's a lot. Do you think Jen's an honest person? I think when Jen lies, I think she does it in efforts to,

I don't think it's with negative or manipulative intent. I don't think it's, yes, I don't think it's malicious intent. I think she does it because she's trying to, whether like avoid some level of conflict oftentimes. But then I think what's hard is that it ends up, you know, coming back around and then like biting her in the ass more than if she would have just been more forthcoming about it in the first place and You know, I've seen that multiple times where I think that whether it's like to Zach or whether it's to the girls

She'll say something that isn't necessarily full truth or whatever and then later It comes out and then it ends up being worse than if she would have just been forthcoming and I get it, but I think it is something that she hopefully is learning lessons from for sure. Do you feel like there's anyone who necessarily performs for the cameras? Like I'm sure you've spent some time

with these women off camera. Do you feel like any of them turn it on or up a notch when the cameras are rolling? I think there's a lot of that in some senses. Maybe as far as like an issue that's already being had, right? So it's the emotions are there, the emotions are authentic,

but maybe like the reaction is maybe being upped a little bit. And I know like Whitney's an actor. So I think maybe she does some of that, but it's also like, I mean, she also does a good job at it, if that's the case. So it's, I do think that there for sure

could be some of that, but I think that it's all coming from genuine emotions. I don't think that there's really anything that's like, I'm gonna like bring this fake emotion and like try to make it a big deal. It's, you know, coming from an authentic place that maybe is played up for some people. More amplified.

Yes. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, that's ultimate. I mean, that cameras do that when mics, you know, it's just, the stakes are heightened, but yeah, there's a big difference between leaning in to the emotion you're feeling, which is ultimately what reality TV is, right?

Like, you know, I've covered reality TV for better part of a decade. There's always this fascination with reality TV. And then there's always these discussions about the producer relationship they have with cast and are they making cast do things they don't want to do? My general opinion having, you know, and I can't speak for everyone's experience and there's plenty of bad actors in any industry. But generally speaking, my opinion is like,

all producers are really doing is, they're there to validate your most intense feelings. They're not the friend. They're not the friend who makes you, that goes, are you sure you wanna do that? No. You know, they're not reminding you of the regret you could feel

for just expressing yourself in that moment. But there's a big difference between that and literally just performing a scene. And then ending the scene and just being like, all right, well anyways, what's for lunch? You know, like just as if you're literally acting. And there, you know, I've seen reality TV people do that in real time.

And I've also seen people just be, They're in their own profession, I guess, for that. Yeah. But as far as you're concerned, you don't really see that amongst the group? No, I do think it's exactly what you said, where people ask us all the time, and I think because of all the online drama, right? People are like, oh, I think this is fake. They're just playing this up.

I wish. I wish. I mean, it's great for the show, right? It's great marketing, but I feel like the would be, it's great for, for the show, right? It's great marketing, but I feel like the fact that people think we're just playing it up online, right? And the thing is, is that when you're already like influencers going into it. Then online, yeah, it does kind of become like a marketing platform for the show naturally.

But also it was already a marketing platform for ourselves prior to that. So I think it's kind of natural to post those type of things and production in the show doesn't have a hand in any of that. They don't tell us what to post. They don't like any of the shade being thrown online that is fully and totally on everyone's own accord. I didn't imagine they'd even want you guys

to do that stuff. Well, that's the thing is sometimes people, they're like, can you guys chill? Yeah. Relative. Yeah, you're going to like spoil stuff at this point. And people are thinking it's fake. But yeah, no, it definitely is just, you know, everyone has their real raw emotions. Whether it's played up or not, I think that that's case by case, person by person.

But what they really ultimately do is put you in situations to evoke emotion for sure. Yeah. And they're, they're going to put you in situations that maybe you wouldn't otherwise be in. But they're never going to tell you how to act or tell you how to feel. Yeah. Or what to do. Or what to do.

Right. Who amongst the group do you feel like is the most misrepresented or, or there's more to them what, to what we've seen so far, the most misunderstood. Yeah. Hmm. I feel like maybe just because you didn't see a lot of Leila and Michaela on season one, I think they might be some just because, again, like, there wasn't a lot of context to their story

or their backstory. And I know that they both did film a lot that incorporated some of their backstories and, like, traumas and things like that, but it ultimately didn't end up making the cut. So I think that they are two of the ones I would say that about. I also think that Whitney went about this season in a different manner. It's now, I don't know like as far as how I'm feeling now if I still feel this way. But going through season two I think that there were a lot of things I was pleasantly surprised regarding Whitney about after seeing season one that I was kind of impressed

by how she handled it. Do you think it's growth on her part or do you think it's her figuring out like learning from her mistakes in gaming the system because she's not stupid. I've never met Whitney. I look forward to having an opportunity to do that. But again, this is all just what I've seen on TV. So it might be completely inaccurate, but she, you know, and I say this is someone who is strategic and I can be calculated. You know, I like to think I have a brain. There's nothing bad about having smarts. But like, do you think her growth is sincere

or more calculated? I think it's certainly a possibility that it could be calculated. I mean, I will say that I am someone who has a tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt more than I should. Okay. Um, it's kind of a joke amongst the girls. Um, they know that I'm that way. It's like get Miranda to forgive you.

Yeah. Yeah, kind of. Which is, I think like that's the thing with Taylor that it was like so crazy that it was such a, you know, our communication was so off for so long. Cause I do feel like, I feel like for the most part I am typically that way. There are like some exceptions obviously, but I do feel like, I feel like for the most part I am typically that way. There are like some exceptions obviously, but I do think with Whitney, they were all concerned that I was getting close to Whitney at a time that felt convenient. And I can't say what her genuine intentions are or were.

You know, of course I'd always like to think that people would want to be my friend from because they genuinely want to, anybody would. But again, it's one of those things where I'm like, I don't really know. But also it's kind of like, I just shrug my shoulders, say, I don't really know. Like I don't, it's not something I really need to get to the bottom of necessarily. It's not like, you know, Whitney and I I haven't had as long of a friendship as Taylor and I had. And even though I feel like we were getting close, I feel like there is still a level of me that goes, maybe they are right or maybe the girls are onto something just because they've also known her longer than I have. And so I do think that there is a possibility with that for sure.

What are some signs that you've seen that kind of give you that feeling? I mean, I do think that like, when it's all laid out, when, you know, Whitney kind of started to have fallouts with some of the girls, I do think that is around the time where her and I did start getting closer. It was kind of a similar thing with Demi. And at the time, it felt like genuine friendship. And I can't really even say that it wasn't. But when the other girls bring up the fact that the timing is convenient, it does make me go, oh, yes, maybe when you put it like that, like, I guess maybe it was and almost like, it like that. I guess maybe it was and almost like needing an ally and not wanting to feel isolated in their fallouts and so on. And so I just, you know, I think that's why I say

with the Demi versus Jesse thing, I'm like, oh, I think anything could be a possibility. I mean, you never really know. But it's also like, I don't really feel a need to try to like dissect it and really figure it out because I'm like, what's that really going to prove? And also, are they ever going to admit it? Probably not. Yeah. It's just, you know, with this particular fallout, sadly, it just feels like there's conversations going on that are very heavy and very serious. There are. Yeah. And it seems like a real shame. Yes, it's unfortunate. It's a very emotional thing to watch unfold.

I think for some of us who are actually divorced too, and watching their marriages be the way they are and going through, hearing about certain things that have gone on in the past, things that are going on now. It is something that I've really tried to hold space for. It's really difficult and it can feel very isolating to feel alone in your relationship. And that's the thing is it really proves, I think, once again, that it is reality and that really no one's, it's hard to play up that much emotion, I guess, especially in your relationship. When there's a lot of damage there, it's coming from an authentic place.

I just want to put some clarity on and have this question because the stuff is starting to get out there. Yes, I was just about to say that. Marciano. Because she just called him a sexual predator in a comment. Yeah. So she, Demi referred to him as a sexual predator in the comments.

You have your opinion about the situation. You know way more than us. When I first heard about anything happening at all, cause obviously I wasn't there at Vanderpump Villa. That was before season one had even aired. But when we were in Scottsdale filming during season two, that was the first time I'd ever heard about anything happening. I know that Jen had voiced some opinions on it here and there felt like Demi was being too flirty and was

acting in a certain way that she didn't agree with. And then she brings it up. There were a few comments made about it, but it wasn't until Scottsdale when I first heard about anything that had happened. And that was also the context that I heard about it in as well. So of course, the context that he's a sexual predator. Yes, that she was assaulted. This information is coming out in real time. I'm of the understanding that the accusation is around like he grabbed her in a way that she felt was inappropriate. Yes. Yes. For the people who were there, it sounds like Jen and Jess outside of Demi, who seem to be questioning Demi's integrity.

How can they be so confident unless they were literally around her 24-7? Right. And that's the hard thing, my first impression of what I was being told was very, was very, you know, empathetic. I'm sorry. That's awful. Obviously, there's been a lot of information now. And I think what is confusing is that if you take that, set that aside, right, let's say

that that did happen. There are also other things that had happened that were not assault. And I think that that's what makes it very confusing. That only if that did happen, that's the only thing being talked about. Nothing else is being talked about. But also like then, you know, when you hear that that didn't happen and then it makes it very confusing. And then, you know, you hear another end of it. And ultimately, like as firm as I am, like in my stance, I still have like empathy on both ends. It's a very, like

it's a, it's a blurry muddy situation all in all. And that's also part of why I'm not like team Jessie, like I have to me, I'm very like, okay, like I've seen problematic behavior. I am hearing these different sides and I lean one way. But I think that's also, with everything that you're saying, it does, you know, it raises some questions because you never want to be the type of person who is victim blaming or to invalidate that experience for her. It's the same reason why, like, I would never really, like, speak to, and I wasn't there, same reason why I would never speak to, like, the situation with Taylor. I can hold space for it and have empathy for it, but I don't know at the end of the day. And that is what's difficult,

is because if it's not true, it's also regardless of his character as a person. Because clearly, character as a person, because I mean, clearly there's a lot there to unpack with like how problematic he knew going into it that all of these women are married, right? So it's like if you are even thinking that there's a possibility at all, it's already like, he's already disrespecting a boundary by like coming onto them in any facet, obviously, especially if it's assault. But regardless of like his character, I think making an accusation like that, if it's not true, is also very wrong. And so from what, what, you know, I know now, yes, do I still have like reservations of like, oh, like, well, I hope this is like actually the case. But then there's also like

substantial, substantial evidence that makes certain things feel a little bit indisputable. The impression I'm getting from you is something happened between Demi and him that your under the impression was consensual. That seems to be the biggest driving force, whether it's you or Jesse or any of the other women that's stopping you ladies from having a hard timing believing to me. Right, and that's what's difficult.

You have two sides of not okay on different ends, and then it's also like most of the people who are having conversations about this and talking about it weren't really there. So then that makes it hard too because you're like, okay, well, we can't really say it at the end of the day, you have to take somebody's word for it. And there are, even though like that is the case, there are also things that have come out that I feel like are evidence to support certain narratives.

But I mean, yeah, it is a, it's a hard line to toe because you don't really know. You can like, again, I still feel like pretty firm in where I'm at in my belief, but I mean, yeah, I think anything's possible and I think some people can be very convincing. So. Well, thanks for having that conversation. I know it's very difficult and we, all of us obviously want to be respectful. Right. And you know more than we know. Right. But you're still, as you just mentioned, you weren't there, you're heavily involved because you're friends with these women. So I appreciate you trying to delicately

have this conversation. I know it's not easy. So thank you for trying to have it with us. And it makes it a little hard when there's still so much unfolding, but. A lot of this stuff we're talking about right now is for all we know, there's more fighting in the comments as we speak.

Oh yeah. And this was stuff was playing out this morning before we sat down and recorded. And by the time this episode comes out, which will be a few weeks from now, who knows where we will stand with the information that is out there and what we're even talking about. So just for those listening.

It's a lot to unpack. Before we let you go, anything you want to share or, I mean, you've been so open and it's been great getting to know you. We're excited to see you join this cast. I speak for myself when I say that, but just any final thoughts before, you know, the world gets to see you and the rest of these ladies tomorrow on season two of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I know it'll be crazy. Yeah, I mean, I'm just grateful for the opportunity, you know,

for better, for worse. Obviously, it comes with its ups and downs. You, of all people, know that. Reality TV is not for everyone. I guess I'll find out if it's for me. Still have yet to know that. We'll find out tomorrow. But I'm just grateful for the opportunity and with all of the chaos that comes with this group of women and all the fallouts and the resolutions, all in all, I'm also grateful for them and for the friendships that I've created. And I'm just excited for everybody to see that. Are you dating? I just got out of a relationship. Okay. So I'm not dating. I'm just... Single mom.

Single mom in it, just soaking up my time with my kids and that's it. There's a lot of, I think, fear when it comes to specifically women, you know, who are leaving relationships to enter in the dating world as a single mom. What have you learned and what can you offer to any women out there who are in your position, who are considering being in your position or just starting to be in your position? We've heard all the fears. All the worries have been well documented,

but what have you gained from your independence as a single mom and what are things that you gained from your independence as a single mom? And what are things that you have learned to appreciate as a single mom that maybe you can share with our audience to offer them more of a silver lining and hope and optimism around being an independent woman? Oh man, I've gained me like authentic, real, raw Miranda. I think that that's something that I, sometimes you don't really realize how much of you is being masked. And I think too, which it wasn't even for me, like just

my relationship alone, because I do feel like there were a lot of ways that I was myself within it, but there were also a lot of ways that I felt like I wasn't. And also within you know, religion and dissecting what that looked like for me. And being very vulnerable and true to myself with where I was at with that and within my relationship. I just feel like I've really come to find a lot of myself. And I started dating pretty quickly, I think too quickly, which is why I think, you know, ultimately it ended. I think I just needed time to just be.

And I think that's exactly what every single mom, or even if somebody is considering it to do, is to take that time and find yourself and to enjoy your own company and to just soak up your time with just your children and just love the alone time. I think it's hard when you're, I was in a relationship for seven years

and I think that coming out of it, I realized like I love living alone. Like I love my alone time and I liked it before but I feel like I really love it now and I realize how much I value it. But it's because I like myself. And I think that a lot of people have a hard time being alone when they don't really like themselves. And I think in this process, that's kind of what I've come to find out is that I like being in my own head and I like who I am. And I've learned that through all of these experiences, it's brought me to where I am.

And so if I could give anybody advice in my position, it would just be to give yourself grace, but just really love your own company. Well, thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Wishing you the best of luck. Excited to see people watch you this season. And if I can offer you any unsolicited advice,

like TV's bullshit, the internet's bullshit, like the more you can, you know, this is a time for you, I hope that to, whether it's your kids, even your ex-husband who you have a positive relationship with, your family, those real relationships will like center you, ground you, and the more you can focus on their opinions and completely ignore the other stuff,

the better you will be because it really, this is a job for you and sort of treat it as such. It's entertainment, let people be entertained and allow them to think and feel whatever they're gonna think and feel because I'm sure you've learned this already, you can't control the opinions of everyone out there. So you might as well just like focus on what's in front of you

and what matters. And if you can do that, I think you'll be glad that you did. Oh yeah, you learned to compartmentalize pretty well. I mean, I try to take my mic off at the end of the day, hand it in, I'm like, right, I clocked out. See you guys next time. It's hard, but it's a process. If you can do that, then I look forward to watching you

on many more seasons to come. Thank you, I appreciate it. Thank you guys for listening. Don't forget that season two of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is out tomorrow on Hulu. They're dropping 10 juicy episodes for you to binge, watch and digest. And we will be covering it the whole way through.

And we'll see you back tomorrow for another episode of RR with our special guests Demi and Brett to preview the upcoming season and get into some of the more you know juicy conversation so more to come. Good luck with that! Hahaha.