The WAN Show - Google Has To Sell Chrome??? - WAN Show November 22, 2024

Episode Date: November 22, 2024

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guys today. What is this? The DOJ will try to force Google to sell Chrome? No, not like like you have to pay for Chrome in order to use it. Like, sell the Chrome business unit. This is freaking wild. We could also talk about the fight last week, or should we call it a show? Yeah. I don't know. We not boxing commentators but like realistically that wasn't a boxing match so. That's a good call. Hey got him. Okay we're probably not gonna talk about that so hold on hold on let me find something else here. I should probably expand on what we said last week or rather expand on why I wasn't able to say more last week about the hiatusi. Is that the term for multiple hiatuses? Hiatus-y? Whichever one it is, Yvonne watched the segment and

she was just like, dude you didn't even like explain why you can't explain and I was like well I thought it was self-evident and she was like it wasn't and I was like okay thank, thank you, better half. I will do better next time. I do, I understand why you thought that, but I also understand why some people might not get it. Cool, let's go. Ah, what else we got today?

We need a puffery shirt. The number of people that talk about puffery ever since that segment is ridiculous. It's really stayed around. Y'all don't seem to want actual tech tips? Yeah. Question mark? No, that seems to be a thing.

That seems to be a thing. We can talk about that. We can talk about that. Also, Microsoft Ignite 2024. Things you don't want plus fixing CrowdStrike. Nice. Ha ha ha. ["Skyrim 2.0 Remake"] The show is brought to you by Notion, Vessi, Server Part Deals, that's a new one, and our laptop partner LG, our rap partner Dbrand, and of course our chair partner Secret Lab

who sent over new chairs for us. They're just like the old chairs but wider. And like, soft. Yeah, they have soft arm rests Yeah, which we're both wearing long sleeves because it's like the heat just turned on this morning, so it's not actually warm in here I was good. They told me to wear this. Oh, which is extremely comfy. Oh Okay, but yeah, well whatever. I'm cold Why don't we jump right into our headline topic today. The Department

of Justice will try to force Google to sell Chrome, ban default search deals, and license data for 10 years. Also, Chrome OS might become Android. So they have submitted their recommended remedies to Judge Amit Mehta, who ruled that Google illegally maintains monopoly on search back in August. And these are the recommended remedies. So selling their Chrome web browser, the DOJ views it as a key component of Google's search monopoly with approximately 65% browser share across all platforms, with Chromium-based browsers accounting for nearly 80% of the market. However, I would push back a little bit, a little bit, on clumping other chromium-based browsers in with the Chrome Anopoly. It's not really their fault.

Well, it is and it isn't. The dominance of Chrome is what's making a Chromium basis so important for maintaining compatibility with the rest of the web. And even though Google does not single-handedly develop another Chromium-based browser, they can certainly shove certain ideas along and make them difficult to go against even though it is possible in some cases. They can attempt to manifest their own optimal business environment. Oh I like that. Yeah I like that. That's good. That's good. So anyway, I think that the numbers a little I'm just saying I think the numbers a little fuzzy. Yeah, it's clearly not sure 65% But I'd also don't think it's 80%

No matter which one of them it is though. Let's be real. That is a dominant position and it was it is one that Google has has painstakingly meticulously created and used to their advantage. This is kind of wild. The next recommendation is banning Google from entering into default search deals, which amount to $26 billion annually and might end up hurting Mozilla more than it does Google. Brutally.

Yeah, to be clear a lot of that $26 billion is going to Apple, not to Mozilla, but man, this one, oh, I have kind of mixed feelings on. On the one hand, yeah, these default search deals are a huge part of why we all tolerate Google search because it's just there when we open up our browser. With that said, if that works, then more people would use Bing, but... Well, or, or, yeah, hmm, yeah, I mean... I understand that people... Edge is still default in Windows and Bing is definitely still default in Edge.

If the product was that bad, I guess people would be willing to switch off of it or maybe that's different platform by platform. I mean This the whole switching to iOS experience has definitely has definitely opened my eyes to how Intuitive doesn't mean intuitive. It just means whatever arcane Ridiculousness you've personally gotten used to, right? And that is true, that's true across multiple platforms.

I mean, how is it intuitive to press Control-Alt-Delete to access some kind of system menu? It's not, it's not intuitive. It's just something you've been doing for a long time. Exactly. So- It's intuitive to you, specifically. Exactly. So... It's intuitive to you, specifically. Exactly. So, depending on the platform, you might find users more or less malleable.

And it's pretty well established that behavior across iOS and Android users is different. For example, I remember like years ago, this used to get talked about a lot more. And maybe it's because there was more transparency into the numbers. I actually don't know why nobody talks about it anymore, but I remember it would make headlines sort of like cyclically that Apple users spend

way more money on the app store. Yeah, they used to be super common to be talked about. I think that was often when there was notable or more notable, I would say, differences between the apps. I remember people used to be really frustrated because Android users had lower image quality on Instagram back in the day. Yeah, yeah, that was-

Like little things like that were much more discernible. You generally had a worse experience on Android because Android users were seen as cheap and not worth focusing on development. Yeah, and they were. Yeah, to be honest. So like- Meas on development. Yeah, and they were. Yeah, to be honest. So like, that was, yeah. Like very measurably.

If you don't remember this, it was like... A huge topic. And like a many times multiplier. It wasn't like the average Android user spends 9% less on apps compared to the average Apple user. And this was more of a thing back, I would imagine more of a thing back, I would imagine, more of a thing back when, like, pretty much every app was, like, kind of useless

unless you spent, like, two or three dollars. Like, that was what a paid app was back in the day. It wasn't so much subscription-based services. In 2024, the average iPhone user spends $12.77 per app. By comparison, the average Android user spends $6.19 per app. So it, the average Android user spends $6.19 per app. So it's still double.

Still double. Wow, okay. As far as my understanding goes, it was like a much bigger gap in the past, but I don't know 100% right now. I don't know if what Parkool is saying here is true, but if it, funny if true, Snapchat on Android was apparently just a screenshot

of the camera compared to iOS directly using the camera. It doesn't really, it wouldn't really, it wouldn't really surprise me that much. It works. Uh, I mean, yeah, and do you really need, do you really need that kind of fidelity in a d*** pic? I mean, I'm just asking questions. I'm just asking questions. You know, if you, if you have lower lower fidelity you might gain a pixel here or there Yeah, I mean isn't that the whole point of snapchat low fidelity? Get it different kinds of fidelity. Yeah, I got it. I'm actually

Surprisingly funny this early in the morning That was really good I'm actually I'm actually giving myself one of these. Oh yeah, that was great. That was not bad. What's their nuts? Ashley Madison just released their most

non-monogamous cities in Canada list. Oh no. Yeah, Vancouver's very low. Really? Vancouver's very low non-monogamy. So I mean to be clear I'm not saying that that's that's a goal. I'm just there's there's all kinds of well there's like you know ethical non-monogamy. Yeah but isn't that site specifically based around cheating? I'm not judging you if you're an apolichule. I think that site is like, for cheating though. Well- There's a big difference. I mean, is any site for anything? Really, Luke? I mean, is Floatplane for early access to-

Not anymore. Although, although- Very occasionally, very occasionally there are things. I was actually hinting at something. Oh, did- were you? What? I- yeah. Look what I found. Oh, wow.

Well, I didn't find it. Emma put it in my luggage And then I found it that way, but I found a relic Wow that is not even that many people in the audience are even gonna know it now. That's a name I've not heard in a long time a long time Hi, I pulled that on my luggage was like what? What is this yeah, so apparently I lost a shirt, but I still have the tuque. Nice. So that's cool.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure I still have the shirt kicking around somewhere. Yeah. But it's not my go-to pajama shirt anymore. It was for a long time. Now it's my G-Bow shirt. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Another name that hasn't stood the test of time.

What on earth were we supposed to be talking about? Oh, right! Google. They also are recommending that Google be required to license its search index data to competitors for 10 years. So this is the kind of like, not slap on the wrist, but actual like, no, you guys need to not behave like this again and you guys need to take active steps to prop up your competitors to make up for the anti-competitive practices that you guys have engaged in and I gotta tell you already it's like we're not even all the way through the list here

already I'm looking at this going, I have no idea what's going to happen in January. Because on the one hand, I think we've both been pretty happy to see the US actually finally engage in any antitrust investigations and remediation. But I have no idea whether that will or won't continue with the next administration because I think that everyone on both sides of the political spectrum can agree that it is likely to be unpredictable. Yeah. can agree that it is likely to be unpredictable. Yeah, I know a pretty strong theory around this whole,

like you're gonna have to sell Chrome thing, is that Google's probable defense is going to be to delay as much as possible and try again with the new administration. The thing with the new administration though, is I don't think they have any particular love for Google in general. The general reply to that theory is that Big Tech right now is kind of at odds with both sides.

Which is kind of a funny thing because a lot of the transgressions that both sides are kind of mad at Big Tech about are very different from each other. Like they're sort of mad for completely different reasons. And it's hard to feel bad for, you know, the tech billionaires that have kind of, you know, sold us up the river over and over and over again over the last couple of decades. But I do kind of feel like at this point, now that everything's so far gone that they just are monopolies, whether they, you know, kind of like it or not. And to be clear, you do not have to be the mono in monopoly. It's not actually, like, strictly speaking, necessary, right?

You can just be in a dominant, abusively dominant position. You don't actually just have to be a monopoly to follow foul of antitrust regulations if you control everything yes or you don't even or even close to it or or or collude with a handful of other parties to control things yeah the potassium has an amazing video on it so there are some very very there there are some very non monopolistsopolous cities in Canada. Sorry, wait, what are we talking about? The point is just that everyone's kind of mad at them and looking for an excuse to kind of punish them, but the remediation that another administration might ask for might be really different Yes, I guess is is what I would worry about So maybe roll the dice again kind of thinking this is probably one of the worst they could have got and then hoping for better

I don't know Yeah I do think The just jumping back to it a little bit because I saw some comments about this in the flow plane chat when we were talking About it, but the 26 billion in search deals hurting, you know, it's gonna hurt Apple, but whatever. Well, not really. Apple will be fine.

Yeah, exactly. It's really like the big damage that we're probably gonna feel is to Mozilla. They're declining in usership effectively constantly. Oh, thanks, Dan. I wasn't actually. I think. Oh, thanks Dan. I wasn't actually. I think.

Okay, I wanna clarify something really quick. That's not my gesture for fill my water. I was checking if there was water in it. That, the optics of that were not great. That's, I didn't even notice, that's pretty funny. I didn't even notice. That's pretty funny. But yeah, so like honestly, this shakeup, okay, significantly less cash in the bank. I suspect it might immediately hurt Mozilla in the ability to employ people department,

things like that. As far as my understanding goes, they actually had layoffs recently. I suspect that may continue if this happens. But a significant shakeup in the browser market could result in a user base increase, an actual one. Yeah, we can hope. That could result in Firefox actually having long legs instead of this just constant decline to eventual irrelevance, which they've been kind of on the path of. I enjoy Firefox, I use Firefox daily

in my personal life. Firefox has been my mobile browser actually the entire time I've ever had an Android phone since the very beginning of having an Android phone. It's going to be so much less lucrative for Firefox to even have users if they aren't benefiting from that Google default search deal. Yeah, you know, Bing could swoop in. It's not a ban of there being default search deals. It's just a ban of there being, you know, Google ones. It reduces the competition. Yeah, who's the competition?

Why would Microsoft have to pay a ton of money for it? And and if I'm Microsoft and I'm watching this go down for Google, I'm like Hmm. I don't know if I want to do that. Yeah Yeah, I mean that's like that's how this is supposed to work, right? Like that's these remedies are not supposed to be Oh, here's a $1 billion fine, it's like, cost of doing business. They're supposed to be like, oh crap, everyone else looking at this going,

holy crap, we really should not do that. We should not do that. People are talking about like DuckDuckGo. The issue is that DuckDuckGo doesn't have any money. Like they have money, but they don't have like billions of dollars a year to use our search engine money Otherwise they would just be doing it already Out arc I out arc I'm guessing in full plane chat said since 2019 Mozilla has lost 30 million monthly average users

Yikes. Yeah, so they've been on a just... They've lost like almost an entire Canada of users. Eventually they're not gonna have anything to take this money from anyways. Right. Like there will be nothing for Google to have bought from them. So like, I don't know, I'm hoping that a reroll of the dice, a shake up, something like that might give them a chance. It's going to hurt a lot in the short term because that money is just going to disappear. But I don't know. Hopefully something can happen out of this that works out.

I think the real question, Luke, is what have you been doing to help Mozilla? It's not like there aren't things you could do. Using it personally, it's not enough. We put on the lab site that it works best in Firefox. Why don't you make it so that flow plane can only be accessed with Firefox? Since they're all using Firefox anyway,

it wouldn't be a problem. That is a good call. We probably should have done that. Yeah. I can look towards doing that in the future. Do you have your phone in your pocket? Is it me? I think it's this iPhone. I think that I think is a lot worse in terms of

Interference because I've kept my phone over there for since before you brought the eye Yeah, I wasn't causing an issue unless it got damaged and now for those missing context. We've done some polls and the float plane The full plane audience Swear up and down that they are using firefox, but we have actual like site access Statistics and they don't yeah people have pointed out that you can like spoof it so that it reports that You're using chrome for like weird compatibility recent things. I sincerely doubt that that percentage of people are spoofing it Sincerely definitely not a thing of people are spoofing it. Sincerely. Definitely not a thing All right, uh, yeah more remediations not selling Android but restricting it from favoring Google search now

because this is focused on search and not you know web mail or Web documents or whatever the case may be it sounds like they could still have default Google apps. But I do wonder if this all goes through, if this all went through, if Google would look at a lot of their current practices and go, hey, how do we avoid any more of this? Restricting Android from favoring Google search, that is, like, what would that look like? So instead of that default Google search bar,

like I would be prompted when I... I suspect on phone setup, or maybe with an update now one time, and then phone setup in the future, you would be prompted to choose your default search, and there would probably be like, you know, your top five and then other. And it would probably, like you know your it would have to be randomized five and then other and it would probably yeah the list would probably have to be randomized Wow and it would involve

undoing Google's two billion dollar investment in AI startup and thropic that would be a really big bummer for anthropic wait really why no no no like what I'm saying not that it would be a I understand why it would be a big bummer for them. I'm wondering why they have to do this. I don't know a ton about Anthropic and that investment. But what I would guess is that Anthropic is super, super focused on search. But I'm just guessing. I'm completely guessing. But I'm just guessing. I'm completely guessing. Google has responded calling the DOJ's proposal staggering, wildly over broad, and part of a radical interventionist agenda that would

harm Americans and break a range of Google products. In an example of how excruciatingly horrible this would be, Google said that the proposal, and this is a quote, would literally require us to install not one, but two separate choice screens before you could access Google search on a Pixel phone you bought. And the design of these choice screens would have to be approved by the technical committee. And that's just a small part of it. We wish we were making this up.

Is that an actual quote? That's from Google's blog. Are they for real right now? This is, oh my goodness. Guys, yeah. A device setup wizard is a thing, which you already have, by the way. This is actually very interesting because this is such an early WAN show, we have a

bunch of EU viewers, and apparently this is like already a thing for them. That makes sense. Dracorex said, in the EU you already get to choose the search engine on Android. Technically, they said as far as I know at the end of that. This is hilarious. Yeah, people are saying, yes, we have that already. Yeah. So like, what do you even mean?

You already did it for them. And it's worth noting that in the EU, Android actually maintains better market share than it does in the US. So clearly, clearly that ain't the variable that is affecting that so annoying you want an annoying thing to say I hope they lose just because of that can you can you imagine sitting at Google and thinking

that typing that is a good idea like how did that at a certain point you wonder if like the person who wrote it is like yeah Let's let's torpedo ourselves a little bit. I was like that's the worst. I Don't know we wish we were making this up Are you kidding me hold on you know what no my source thing oh? My god like is that is that poking fun at yourself? This is literally literally Like is that is that poking fun at yourself? This is literally literally At blog.google. I didn't even believe it like I I trust I trust riley Okay, and and he had the citation in there. So I saw the citation

I went I don't need to click through to this but I was like no No, the people deserve for me to actually click through to the google blog. Yeah And see that this is literally... We wish we were making this up. I wish I was making this up. We already did this in the EU, so really we don't have to do any of this at all, but we wish we were making this up. I've had multiple conversations with multiple people.

Good people, strong people. The best people. Tears streaming down their eyes. The Wendlist strong people. The best people. Tear streaming down their eyes. The Wendlist of people. About the like the slow death of just Google in general, like they suck. Like if we're looking at the landscape of like modern, you know, web Silicon Valley style companies, what have they done in the last long time other than just like kill stuff and not innovate? Let me think. What have they done in the last long time other than just like kill stuff and not innovate? Let me think what have they done? Okay? Does it count as a thing they've done if they ultimately killed it?

No, okay, that doesn't count. No, okay. Hold on thinking Google fiber. Well, wait, no, hold on. That's old. Wait, no Okay, hold on there's got to be something apparently The EU has had the choice screen on Android since 2019 Actually, okay YouTube YouTube has done some pretty cool stuff YouTube is the only thing I've been able to think of that has had Positive innovation and it has also had really junkie negative innovation. Yes. This is true. This is true. I would say, ugh.

Yeah, I was going to say that finding stuff to buy through Google Search. And if we're talking about monopolies, like. It's better. Like, the interface is better. But all the sponsored stuff that gunks up the results is not better. So I take that one back.

Android is better than ever. Yeah, but like nothing crazy has changed in like... It's better than ever though, it's like... Sure. Well, I'm looking, you asked me to find stuff, so when I find stuff you don't get to be like, Fuh. Fair enough, fair enough.

Google Workspace has stood still for a super long time. They don't even have their own realistic chat. I know they have chats, which they swear to me that they use internally. And I don't believe it. Oh, Google Maps. Google Maps. Maybe they do, but they also use other things, I bet. Maybe other people have had access to this for a long time, but my Android auto interface for Google Maps finally allows me to report problems Like if I see police I can report it in Google Maps. I mean they acquired ways what ten years ago So it's it's it's understandable. It took them a little while to port that functionality over Someone says they've had that in Maps for a long time. I don't know, man.

It did not show up into my interface until like a couple weeks ago, which was the reason that I exclusively use Waze, even though Waze's search is terrible. Like, my own badminton center doesn't show up in Waze search. And I don't know why, because it's on Google Maps. They're literally owned by the same company. I thought that's the point of being a monopoly. The actual point. But anyway.

On basically everything they've stood still. They have some people in the company that are obviously still doing good work. They have their AI researchers wrote the white paper on what is breaking the world right now. But then they have one of the worst ones in Gemini because they didn't capitalize on it because they don't seem to be able to do anything. And the reason why I got onto this topic is because of the, we wish we were making this up, almost feels like they're pointing at themselves Because the and the design of those choice screens would have to be approved by the technical committee

That part is like Okay, yeah, because we can't trust you to do it on your own based on your own website and documentation you already did it So like what are you talking about? Yeah, that looks fine. Yeah, it does It looks completely fine, and they literally already did it. Yeah, that looks so like let are you talking about yeah that looks fine yeah it does it looks completely fine and they literally already did it yeah that looks so like let's just do that what are you talking about make things again like Google was such a sick company I really liked Google I really like Google workspace I can't tell what's different in Google works I can tell you cool stuff I can tell you cool stuff they've done okay they have those like hardware decoding cards for video hardware video decoding cards those are

cool why did they make those I don't like a while ago but they like are like working on them and stuff yeah so they they that's not really for users though we get the result of it yeah we look I I I have said before and I maintain that YouTube is One of the wonders of the world it is like I think if we when we if we didn't have YouTube anymore

We would look back on the time that we would have that we had YouTube and we would go The internet would be different good lord like the the the knowledge the library sharing the human experience I Really do feel like it would be different. Good lord, like the knowledge, the sharing of human experience. I really do feel like it would be a loss. Maybe not quite on that level because of how little sort of written knowledge there was in the world at that time, right? But I think that given even more time and given even more buildup of collective knowledge and experience

But I think you could make the argument I just didn't want to make such a strong statement But no, I think I think it would be I think it would be like that losing something of that magnitude at this time one of the big things with YouTube is when you'll you'll find videos on there that are like from 13 years ago and It's it's like... Potato. You know, but it's when people were archiving footage from like pre-internet era. So it's not only is it from 13 years ago, it's actually from way before that.

Yep. And there's literally nowhere else to access it because on YouTube, any Yahoo, it's kind of a joke because... It's pretty good, yeah, can upload anything they want and it just is there and is just documented. That is, that is, I'm not going to call it a public service because they're clearly a for-profit company and they and they profit from it with your data and your attention to ads and your premium subscriptions and all

of those things but to lose it would be catastrophic I think at this point. But yeah, when's the last time they launched a Gmail? You know? Like when they launched Gmail they launched it on April Fool's almost as like a joke and then just took over the world. Like they don't do stuff like that anymore. Google Workspace, again, hasn't moved at all. Gemini... I'd say... Yeah, someone's phone is...

Oh, sorry, that's me. Gemini is like... I'd say Docs is... Notably behind. Docs is... Hasn't moved at all, though. Hasn't moved at all, though. I...

As someone who uses it every day, it's a lot better than it was five years ago. I'll tell you that. It's definitely better. What's changed? In the last five years specifically, I don't know, but just, the interface is just always getting a little better. It's always getting a little better.

That's probably one of those things where I can't imagine it, but if I saw a version from five years ago, it's probably changed subtly over time. There's still things that are probably one of those things where I can't imagine it But if I saw a version from years ago, it's probably changed subtly over time Still things that are super obnoxious like once a document is is Pressing return is two spaces It's like damn near impossible to get it to stop doing that for some reason like you can go in you can tell it single Spacing you can tell it whatever you want But if you like paste something in that has that inherent formatting in it already for some reason it just like breaks it forever

As far as I can tell I'm sure there is a way around it, but it is not intuitive to a word user a long-time word user Someone in full paint shot Tim said come on You know more than anyone that small backend changes are so huge and you don't realize them unless you look at them side by side Yeah, I know that. What I, what I, I.

But this is from a consumer standpoint. Yeah, and I hope. Give me something as a consumer. Back-end changes smooth out your infrastructure and make managing it easier, and they might even improve responsiveness here and there, but for the most part, every time that I've seen Google tell me that a back-end change is supposed to make my user experience better, it has made it literally worse.

I'm sure it happens a bunch of times without them really communicating to you. This is totally a thing. It's super annoying being on a team when you have to work on stuff that users don't notice. The most egregious example of this is the analytics dashboard, which used to be extremely snappy except for the occasional time that it wasn't. And now, oh okay, of course it's behaving well right now. Yeah! Now it is, for the most part, a piece of garbage. It's actually doing really well right now.

Um, but it, it, it, it, it, I, hmm, I, I could talk for a long time about how much I hate the new analytics dashboard, and it's not even new It's like seven years old at this point, but I I can't stand it. I can't think of anything new that I use from from Google and Most of the old things that I use from Google are becoming harder and harder to justify over time due to price increases from You know getting my YouTube music from my premium subscription that just went up by 60% because they're trying to shoehorn

in AI features that are really expensive. So they're cranking the price up. Just give me Google Play Music back. It was actually better. Like the thing that I, the one feature I cared about, the reason that I spent a bunch of money on Sonos speakers and the reason that I spent a bunch of money on Sonos speakers and the reason that I got a Google Play Music subscription was because from my music app I could just click Cast, like just the Cast button, you know, like the Chromecast Cast button. I could just click the Cast button and then pick my speakers and the integration was perfect

and flawless and I never had to touch that piece of sh** Sonos app. And now that it's like so bad that like their CEO had to apologize, I feel so validated in that sort of that decision I made to completely avoid it. Also, oh my god, I don't know when this happened, but again back to Android Auto for a second here I can't search in my in my YouTube music app Like I have to like I can voice search Not in the app like I can be like, I don't know play Justin Bieber or whatever right like I can do that. But if I'm if I'm

or whatever, right? Like, I can do that, but if I'm, if I'm, like, if I'm, like, using the interface, there's no search, and the browse is super hamstrung, and what's really wild is there's no start radio button in it anymore. And that is literally

like how I use my music app. Is like I find a song that I'm kind of in the mood for, and then I click start radio. Cause I just wanna, I kinda wanna listen to stuff like that find a song that I'm kind of in the mood for and then I click start radio Yeah, cuz I just want to I kind of want to listen to stuff like that for a bit That type of song yeah And that that start radio button is no longer there in the player for me And I see a lot of people at when I was talking about maps saying like oh yeah mine has this mine has that It's all over the place though the fact that you I'm not saying you don't have it and you got you guys might even have

A start radio button I have no idea, but I don't and it is very annoying very annoying Okay, no one is actually yeah, no one's actually disagreeing with this one, so I guess yeah, it's uh It's apparently still still bad, but yeah, just just get bury the hatchet with Sonos and just make it work again, please Yeah, I don't know I just I've heard a lot of stuff about how and who knows what's true and what isn't true But I've heard a lot of stuff about how things work inside of Google apparently the best way to get promoted Was for a long time was to like champion a project to launch.

But then you would just get promoted after it launched. So that project would like lose its leader, stagnate and then get closed down. So it was just this like farm for junk for a long time. So for at the beginning, they were making new good things rapidly. And then they saw new good things coming out rapidly as a good thing for the business. So let's incentivize that and promote people that do that. But then the people inside that just wanted promotions and money were abandoning all their projects. So they were making new good things and getting rid of them rapidly for many, many years.

And then now they just don't seem to really do anything. Cubes the Gamer has one, RCS. Yeah. And that wasn't just a matter of like developing it that was that was like launching and maintaining for an extended period of time an extremely ultimately effective campaign to get attention from regulators and competitors. I was saying a big part of that was the lobbying almost more than anything else. I think RCS is a good example. It's crazy to me that there is this few examples for a company of 200,000 people. This is true. This is fair. Google Meet is pretty good these days.

I'm just saying, look, I I'm... It barely matters when people are actively moving away from Google Workspace because if you want to be on Workspace and you want an actually good chat client you're using Workspace and Slack and Workspace and Slack as a combination is quite expensive. In my opinion Slack is significantly better than Teams.

Workspace itself though has stagnated so hard that Office 365 seems to have mostly caught up to them, if not at parity. The biggest problem with Office 365 is that Teams is just such a dumpster fire. It's better than it used to be. It's still so bad. I have you can't messages to To group chats that have not existed before yeah, I know why Well if you attach something to a chat message you have to wait for it to upload before you click send yeah, why? In slack if I attach something and click send it just sends once it attaches. Yeah, duh

Like there's there's so many things that are just holy crap if you're in a big group chat It highlights the box for whoever is talking except for you, so you can't tell if your mics working why? Just Why there's so much stuff? That's just so confusing we need to get a couch on the Wanshow set so he can lie on the couch. But, but Teams is going to keep improving because something that Microsoft is quite good at is this just never-ending march. They just keep moving, usually a little bit slower than everybody else. Sometimes backwards.

But they just keep moving. Usually a little bit slower than everybody else. Yeah, and sometimes backwards. But they just keep moving. So eventually teams will be good enough. You know, there's only so much you can do with a chat client. You're seeing the type of innovation that Slack has been bringing lately and it's like, eh. I think we're at feature parity with them as in Messenger now, so the only way to go is upward from here. We're getting there. But it's just, it's going to be really hard for IT teams to justify the cost of having an expensive Google Workspace subscription, especially when they're trying to not give you discounts anymore unless you also buy Gemini, which nobody wants, and then

also a very premium, very expensive Slack subscription when you could get all of that under a 365 license or a Lark license or something like that at a massively decreased price with more features. VDKA makes a very important point here. Until we have a nudge feature, parity with MSN Messenger will not have been achieved. You are right. Thank you for that and I am sorry,

I have misspoken, I have besmirched the good name of MSN Messenger and I will not do it again. I will not do it again. Okay, what else we got here? Google claims the DOJ should be focusing on revising search distribution agreements instead. Okay, this is interesting. Google isn't the only one who thinks this is a bad idea.

Some analysts worry about its feasibility and unintended consequences. For example, it could potentially harm schools that use Chromebooks, and disrupt the browser market, which relies heavily on Google's open source Chromium project. Those are both good things. Some analysts realize that something might happen if this happens. Um... And like, this is one of those things where it feels a little bit like the housing bubble in Vancouver.

Where the- Not in my backyard. The bigger the bubble gets, the more hand-wringing there is over doing anything about this because of the economic harm. And it's like- Right. The longer you hand-ring, the harder the economic harm gets. But like, if we'd done everything properly, we wouldn't be here in the first place,

and the further we allow it to expand, the bigger the explosion when it pops. Yeah. Like, yes, there's gonna be collateral damage if all of this goes through. There will absolutely be unintended consequences. For sure. But the longer we wait wait the worse it gets the more the more atrophied Every other potential competitor will become because of Google's dominant position. Why you shouldn't allow this to happen in the first place ideally Yeah, yeah speaking of the Vancouver housing bubble. It's it's kind of starting to look a little shaky

It's it's looking's looking a little sad. Yeah. You know, it's making a noise like... Sales are erupting though. Yeah, sales are going up, which will maybe prop things up a little bit, but also interest rates. Apparently, the Trudeau government is doing like a buy your vote program right now. Oh yeah, oh yeah yeah you saw that too

I'm happy you had the exact same reaction I did and I saw the elections coming soon what if we uh what if we lower taxes and gave you money huh how about that huh what if we got rid of first past the post you ever think of that Mr. JT yeah that thing you said you'd do yeah remember did you ever think of that because I'll tell you what I'll make you a deal Mr. Trudeau

Right now if you're watching this I will wholeheartedly Emphatically endorse you for the next election if you get first past the post Gotten rid of if you do that thing you said you're gonna gonna before the election you follow through on that first term election promise I Will I will I will say hey? for all of his other warts At least the ones that I can see and the ones I can't see Don't show me your warts. Hey, he's got that cool fall down the stairs trick and he got rid of first past the post

That's enough for me. All right. Because we need election reform. Yes, we do. We need it. Desperately. So I'm, there you go. I'm in, that's all you gotta do.

What is First Past the Post? I would actually recommend that you watch a CGP Grey video on that, but effectively with First Past the Post, you are going to end up being forced into what is effectively a two-party system. Yes. If you don't have First Past the Post, you then have ranked choice ideally. So you rank your choices and if one of your parties that you voted for as your first choice is clearly definitely going to lose, they just dump that and your vote goes towards the second choice and so on and so forth until there's a winner.

It also makes it so that, like let's say you had a super polarized electorate, hypothetical scenario. if you had your your rank choice voting card and it had like the the the super right wing party here or you had a super right wing party kind of a centrist party and a super left wing party if you were to say well, okay, I am very aligned with the right wing party and very misaligned with the left wing party but I guess these center guys would kind of be okay. And if everybody basically did that, but like flip-flopped, that center party would actually have some representation in the formed government.

Because if everyone kind of agreed that these guys are okay, even though one of the other two hyper-polarized parties was their first choice, those centrist sort of mindsets would be much more represented. It's pretty much what it would come down to. First Past the Post drives people to extremes because it ends up making, in my opinion, most people vote on an anything-but-them type basis instead of for what they actually want. And ranked choice voting allows you to vote for what you actually want, which is like enormously massive difference. Yeah, or more like it allows you to specify what would be

uncompletely unacceptable and what would be more acceptable and what would be more acceptable and what would be preferred and then you can you can account for that. It often results in something that's a little bit more average not necessarily the best or better but it'll it'll help lean towards something that's a little bit more average instead of more extreme. I don't think there's any voting system that involves everyone and is perfect. I don't think there's any voting system that's perfect really. No. But First Past the Post is definitely one of the worst. Yes. There are worst ones, but it's one of the worst. But First Past the Post is really good for the incumbent. It's really good for those parties that currently hold all the power. So that's why it's really hard to get any kind of

reform passed because they are highly disincentivized to do it. It's really frustrating. Why is it called First Past the Post, ask Shortcut? It's called First Pass the Post because whoever passes the requisite number of votes to win that race just takes all the marbles instead of accounting for anything else. DigitalB11 says Veritasium has a good video on voting systems. And that makes perfect sense. I'm sure Derek does. So why don't you guys go check that out?

Yeah. Moving on, did we finish the Google topic um discussion question blog post multi-key everything Google has told Android Authority that Google's multi your plan to migrate from OS fully over to Android which lines up with the Google blog post from June 2024 swapping parts of chroma yeah I think we're I think we're pretty much done. I think we've talked about this enough. Okay, so what do you want us to do, Dan? Announcements.

Oh, you want us to do announcements. Oh, good Lord. There's a handful of announcements today. Okay, from Tuesday, November 26th to Monday, December 2nd, we will be running some incredible deals on some of our most popular products at LTT Store. But what we're really excited for are these bundles that we're putting together with the help of some of our partners.

If you've already seen our Black Friday, Cyber Monday email sign up page, then there's something new on it. Make sure you sign up so you don't miss out on the deals. Also, Float Plane subscribers. Oh, this is, is this because of the new, better integration between Floatplane and LTT Store? Or, what is this? Quite similar to what we had before,

it's just a different way of using it. Oh, okay. Floatplane subscribers will be getting one day of early access on Monday, November 25th. Let's go. Now, my understanding is that early access is to the week-long deals, but It is possible that there are messages on my phone that will further clarify What is going on?

Okay What no I do not have any further messages on my phone so I think that would be the week-long deals I don't think that that will necessarily include some of the very limited quantity flash deals, but I Do not know for sure the way to know for sure is to be signed up for the newsletter So that is at LMG GG up for the newsletter so that is at LMG.GG slash BFCM Dan do you want to throw that in all the chats to make sure that everybody gets that? Can do. Now it's time for us to play a game. Sorry we're playing a game. Some people are saying that they don't see the email signup form it's probably because you have something

blocking it. Nice. That makes sense. Modern internet is a thing okay, Luke. Let's see if you can guess what these items are Sorry, I don't have an item here Dan do you know anything about this is it these what are these? No, I don't wondering about what's Dan with everything on the dad there. Oh Dan's what these items are what items? Dan there oh Dan's what these items are what items um? But I think you had a good feeling about the item in the middle of last week I don't know what the items are is it in this I? Think you had a good feeling what they were the bag I guess so ah Riley had mentioned this I'm so sorry Riley

Okay, cool. Why don't we come back to this Guessing game plan for the products on set which will be... I don't know. Here anyway, so the early access thing um Subscribe at LMG.GG slash FP Black Friday to subscribe to Float Plane People are saying it's the bundles at the bottom of the Black Friday page. Oh, the question mark things! Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo the heck really Pikachu guess that you just say ditto for product of the one I don't know the the first one based on the what looks like the wrist rest

attachment and the fact that it doesn't have the no No, you're supposed to guess the middle one. The middle one? Oh, it's a stream deck. Okay. It's apparently in the human organ transplant bag that is on the set. Whoops, that's my thing. Why? Luke, I don't know what's going on right now any more than you do.

Sure, yeah. Cool. Oh, it's not. It's a Wave XLR. It's from the same brand Oh, wow, you got it wrong. I'm sure they use the same house Wow Luke. You're zero for one Wait, I don't think I'm gonna get any of these then check it wait. What no hold on a second What what's going on? What I don't think that's right Because the doc says

The doc says Elgato stream deck mark 2 is supposed to be in the organ transplant bag What is happening right now? You can't do this anymore Can't do this anymore From the shadow you literally can't tell the difference between the two okay? I have one on my desk. It looks like what is the silhouette on the right? It's a keyboard mon. I don't know. I'm my my guess on the right Luke. That's the left. Oh headphone mon These look like Sennheisers. They look like Jamaican headphones Pokemon sure who's that Pokemon? Yeah sure yeah, yeah

Do any Pokemon have mon at the end of the name Squirtle mon Anyways they look like... Smokemon. Smokemon. I don't know. That's a good reference. The cucumber song thing about how it's good for you or whatever? Yeah. I don't know why I remember that. Jam on. They look like- I can't take credit for that, I can't take credit for that. That goes to sinful hands in Float Plane Chat. They look like Sennheiser headphones. I'm guessing based on the band that they're like 600s. Check under your table right now.

It was wrong last time. I don't know dude, I don't know. They're Sennheis't know they're senizers They're not 600s. They're HD 560s open back headphones Nice both of these items are going to be included in bundles that are on sale throughout the entire event or until we run out Which is probably more likely, but there's a third item on the left good gravy This is taking forever Corsair K 65 Corsair K 65 did you look at the dock no okay?

It looks like it has a tent it doesn't have an LTT backpack that is here between us Luke Wow Nope, it's the case K70 core TKL with Corsair I Thought it said milks and I was like really MLX red smooth linear switches a $120 keyboard that will be included in a bundle at no extra cost along with one more thing But this bundle is going to be dropping on a random day throughout the week

So I'd really recommend you sign up for email notifications at LMG.gg slash BFCM to have the best chance at securing one. So I was five switches off. Yeah, yeah good. Right brand though you can kind of tell from the silhouette that it's of course our keyboard. Yeah okay so we made our way through that eventually. Yeah. Also. What are those? What are those? For the announcement left hand for the announcement right hand, okay? So Linus camp but hold on I'm gonna figure this out Our collaborative wrist rest with Delta hub is back in stock and this time the left hand variants are available, too It's a little quickly during the first run and this time you can get early access to the Black Friday sale

you can get 15% off by going through our link in the video description. And finally, oh, this is an announcement but it's nothing to do with the store. OVH Cloud Summit 2024. Why is it that Luke has a go bag with him right now? Not because the world has ended yet. But coming up on November 28th, Luke will be live in, excuse me, live à Paris, hosting this year's OVH Cloud Summit live event.

Yes. There will be great discussions around cloud computing, AI, machine learning, and more, and it will be hosted on their Twitch and X-links, which we will have in the video description, you guys can find out more that is actually super cool I Said 15 percent 15 Should genuinely actually be pretty fun. I've seen the lineup of people that I'll be interviewing. I'm actually Genuinely, so are you like a media personality again? They're like what what do you even I guess who who are you? I don't know what exactly is it that you do not sure to be honest. Okay? Yeah, comes up Who are you? I don't know. What exactly is it that you do? Not sure, to be honest. Okay, cool. Just stuff. Yeah. Whatever comes up. Prominent guy.

They should just ask for that to be your little, like, tag. That would be pretty funny. Cause, like, honestly though. I don't know. Like, I do this thing. Yeah, you're like, you're a Renaissance man. Podcaster, development team lead, um... Lab thing.

Yeah, bird enthusiast. I don't know there's all there's all kinds of like infrastructure enjoyer historically great lover Chicken Specifically, you love chicken. Yes. He just really loves it chickens very effective. That's what he loves about it Yeah, it's the most effective bird very effective that's what he loves about it yeah it's the most effective bird mm-hmm yep 100% hit rate on chicken why the chicken crossed the road to get away from Luke you have no idea how many chickens have sacrificed themselves for

my mediocre physique that's a stolen joke but but anyways. Yeah, but I think it's actually gonna be really fun. I'm excited for that. So tune in. Cool, what else are we even, what are we supposed to be talking about today? Dan, can you please get this show back on the rails? I've been trying, are you still, are you done with the announcements?

I don't know, am I? I'll read the doc for you then, let's see. Yeah, you are. Looks about right, then let's do some merch messages. Okay, sure, merch messages. so you head on the store you add something to your cart a box pops up you leave a merch message we think it's better than super chats or twitch bits because hey if we get to your message great or Dan can pop it up down here or reply to it or forward it to someone

internally to get you an answer well you know we're gonna do our best to acknowledge your merch message. But if we don't, then hey, well, there's always, you know, getting some high quality merchandise in the mail. Yeah. All right. Cool. So anyway, merch messages.

Hit me. Show us how it works, Dan. Sure. Let's see. Your first is from Zachary. How much is Google to blame for people getting scammed? Facebook and Instagram don't have customer support, but if you Google it, a bunch of scam results appear.

Should customer support be mandatory? So I think there's more of an issue with, like, Facebook not having customer support. It'd be an incredible amount of free products that would instantly cease to exist. Oh, man. Just to be clear. Yeah, so okay, so basically what you're saying is that Google is returning search results

that are invalid and that are scams when people are trying to contact Facebook and Instagram support. Okay, so step number one is yes, a customer or help option of some sort should absolutely be mandatory for any business and especially for someone that operates on the order that Facebook does. Like if we can afford to have customer support, Facebook can afford to have customer support. So any free service has to have customer support? Well dude, nothing's free. It's not free. So there's that. Facebook you're absolutely paying for. You pay in your

data. And if it wasn't profitable, they wouldn't be doing it. If that became a law, genuinely a lot of services would instantly shut down. If they had to have customer support? Yeah. Well, hold on a second, because I'm not saying every service. Like, if there's some, some, like, back-end project or something that we have implementation for on our website or something like that, I think if you are consumer facing, maybe, maybe I should call it consumer support then, if you are end-user facing, give me an example of someone who shouldn't have to have end-user support for their product straw pole Strawpoll is strawpoll even a company

I don't know and Like realistically I pulled that off Okay, hold on a second you Do they have support watch them have support hold on a second what the what the devil is contact them? we have pricing. What the devil is type form, and why do they have straw poll? Straw- type- straw- straw poll.

Easiest poll creator ever, that only- okay. Well apparently there's competition in the create a quick- In the straw polls. Create a quick poll space. Also, hold on a second- They have support They totally have support. It's confirmed it online Contact us. Yeah, or email so they have okay. They have a pricing structure now though, so I did I wasn't aware try again sir

I don't know give me an example something that shouldn't have support everything should have support Because how else are you gonna get customer feedback? Literally if we didn't have LTT store support. How would we ever improve? Yeah, but that's a store. That's like a very different situation. Okay fine And he's anything if I didn't have support. How would we improve? Float plane is a pay to access service? Everything is paid though. Everything's paid. You pay with your attention, looking at ads. You pay with your personal information.

You pay with your credit card. You pay for everything. Everything's paid. So, there's no free lunch. Yeah. I can't think of examples right now. Small Linux distros. Linux support for Linux distros.

I think there are some like support forums, would that count? I think that is- Would support forums count? Stack overflow? You know what, no, I, well, see here's my problem. Because I think in the case of something like a Linux distro, I actually would say that, yeah, I think that counts, I think that's valid, right?

If it's a community created, community supported product, then I think it can be, yeah, then it can be community supported. Community created can be community supported. But the fact that Microsoft, for example, has that, I forget what it's called, like Microsoft Answers, or like, what's it called? Give me a second, I'll get there.

So the fact that Microsoft relies on community contributors to answer support inquiries for freaking Windows. Yeah, that's ridiculous. Is actually comical. And actually very annoying, to be honest. Like actually comical, because it basically just gives them a shield to put in front of themselves

to not have to fix things that are problems. If they were actually accountable, if they had to pay, if they had to pay billable hours to employees or contractors to sit and explain to people why freaking search doesn't work, if that was actually on their books, we might get a different response from them about it. Maybe.

They might actually fix it. Or it would just be canned responses being spammed. Because eventually, eventually, like someone would look at it and go, hmm, it might actually be cheaper to just develop a fix to this. Oh, they would just script a canned response to everybody and not actually deal with them. Turn it AI.

But yeah, what about this? What about it? That's a forum. Where's support? Uh, you, hold on. No, no, no. What about it? That's a that's a forum. Where's support? You hold on no no no we have we have we have you can contact an admin or moderator We literally have that I'm gonna find it. I'm gonna find it smart guy. It's not official support though, so well hold on staff okay line is tech and

I'm not logged in, but you can literally send me a message But that's not support No it's not But hold on, hold on, hold on Okay By the way don't bother because I don't reply to them anymore but No no I'm pretty sure there's I'm pretty sure there's stuff

Hold on, I'm gonna find it He hasn't found it yet Forum support He'll find it eventually, there we go It's right there. We totally have support. Now I knew we had support, smart guy. We 100%-

Do you know why we have that support though? Because you should have support. No. For GDPR forget me requests. Sort of actually, but it's because we did sales through the forum. Okay, but we would need it anyway, and we would totally have it anyway No, I I'm not you know what I'm gonna die on this hill

every service that is customer facing consumer facing and Anyone who pays you in any way whether it's with their blood or their you in any way whether it's with their blood or their DNA freaking collection companies man 23 and me's implosion is terrifying if you're not terrified of that you should be terrified of that you never sent your genetic information to them if anyone even kind of related to you did you could be like that whole thing sucks and I'm super angry about it still. I'm probably screwed and just don't know. You're actually screwed and do know. Yeah. What was I going to say? Would you accept some form of threshold of like revenue for

the company or something like that? Like there's a lot of laws, like float planes protected by these amenities, where if you're below a certain amount of revenue, certain laws don't take place yet. I think as long as we also account for, well, we have very little revenue, but we do have a casual nine billion dollars in seed funding. I think basically, once a certain amount of money is flowing in some way, I'm down with that.

You should support the product. So once you either have a certain amount of revenue or have raised a certain amount of dollars I'd be completely fine with that. I just think I think this has there's a lot of these types of laws that I see come in that to a certain degree seem designed to benefit big players and designed to benefit big players. And like some random little forum or some random little thing here or there, like, you know, maybe they do make money off of it.

They probably actually do have support. TeamBoo suggests that another threshold could be users. And I think that's valid. That's an interesting one. There's a contact. Is there actually a support though wow this website is rough I just went to paint net oh yeah good old paint net the email is not for technical support or troubleshooting there's a forum linked below there's an example yep there's just a support forum please Please ask our forum. But isn't isn't paint.net like open source?

There's a donate button. Yeah but that's again. You said any site or service. No what I said is that if it is community created then it can be community supported. So I said the forum is valid for that. OK. OK.

I don't remember that bit but I believe you. Yeah. Was probably thinking about something else. Oh, okay. Chicken probably. I haven't eaten today, so maybe, maybe. Yeah, I don't know. I think if there was some amount of, yeah, either a user count or a revenue count or a total raised money. Paint.net is freeware. Freeware, not open source. Sorry, sorry. And, and yes, this is a really good point. VNG Supernova says open source doesn't mean community created. That's also very true.

That is very true. It often means limited amount of contributors because, because I don't know, either there often isn't that many contributors or it's people that just want credit for job applications. Hexdot says no chance with Elon is part of the next US administration. Doesn't Tesla not even have PR anymore? They don't have PR, but what they do have is customer support. They actually they do have support. If you are an individual end user you can 100% contact Tesla, but whatever issue you're having with your model, whatever. So let's just You know look, I'm not a fan of a lot of stuff that he's done, especially over the last few years.

There seems to be kind of this weird kind of turn that he's taken. But let's not make things up, right? Yeah, MiGoo says, Elon is their PR department, for better or for worse. That is a true statement. Yeah, MiGoo says, Elon is their PR department, for better or for worse. That is a true statement. Let's maybe move on to our... I've got to get out of here in like 40 minutes.

Oh, do you? Okay. Let's move on to our sponsors then. Cool. What has the show even been about so far? We're going to have to get through some topics at some point. Only Google. Only Google.

It's the Google show. Good job, guys. The show is brought to you today by Notion. If you want the power of Thanos in the office, check out our sponsor, Notion. Just like Thanos' gauntlet brings all the infinity stones together, Notion keeps your notes, docs, and projects in one place.

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Yeah, they had like a physical store. I hadn't been to Metro Town in like eight years. I haven't seen it because I haven't been there since they opened the store, but I just know that. Cool. Our team loves their Vessis because here in Vancouver the weather is always so unpredictable. I actually hate this talking point because the weather in Vancouver is not unpredictable. It's extremely predictable. It rains.

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I don't know. Okay. Very cool. And what am I about to find? And we've got some booglies. The cushions in this box are manufactured from 100% post-consumer recycled plastic. Cool. Oh, that's nice. It genuinely looks very cushioned.

Wow, that is a... Yeah. That is a firm cushion. Oh, okay. Oh, neat. Yeah, this is different from what I've seen before. So you kind of go like this, and then your hard drive comes out. And that's a casual 24 terabyte Seagate Exos in there

Very cool. Is that one of ours? Oh, yeah. Look we've inventoried it. That might be for Mother Vault. Please don't drop that one. Oh Okay, although if it was in the packaging it wouldn't matter Right, so what you're saying is that I should drop it, but I should just put it back in here first, right Dan? Yeah, that's probably from one of the V devs is live so if we lose that drive will lose the entirety of the mother vault What really no? What we like to live dangerously? No, there's no way that's true stop it resilvering takes eight days We wouldn't we know we wouldn't do that yeah, okay Dan, but I bet I'm sure you could. Anyway.

On like so many levels, why would that have been done? Yeah, anyway. They test every single drive they sell, even manufacturer recertified drives go through read, write, speed testing and sector scanning, and they have their smart data checked for bad and reallocated sectors. They have many manufacturer recertified drives

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but guys, you gotta understand this is a very, very different, slimmer business model than a lot of other services and products online that literally will have like 25, 30 points baked into them so that they can offer a discount. Yeah, that's 5% off on hard drives is like good. So go for it. I'm also told that they actually sent us that hard drive too. Oh, okay. They sent the hard drive. Okay. Hey, thanks. Oh, so that's just like legitimately exactly how it was packaged. Yeah, that's how it was sent.

And then we owned and destroyed it, which destroyed the entire bit. Neat. Okay, I want to talk about this. The topic is, y'all don't seem to want actual tech tips. Yeah, I saw this. Did you check out the video? I checked out the video. There was also also if I remember

correctly, there was actually a Reddit thread talking about how good parts of the video were. Even though the person recognized I think it was about this video. I don't remember. I'm I didn't know this was gonna be a topic in the doc. So I didn't prep for this. How good parts of the video were even though they're usually just interested in the entertainment parts of the video, they saw though they're usually just interested in the entertainment parts of the video, they saw how it was connected to real world things.

They're like, wow, this is really cool. And I was like, yeah. So we did a video this week that has changed titles a couple times because it's performing Trying to make it work. Terribly. And basically it was me and Elijah,

and I gotta give some credit to Plouffe, who was actually the one who did the Facebook marketplace dumpster diving before the project got passed to Elijah to get it across the finish line. But right now it's called, I built an insane surround sound setup for under $250. And the original title focused on building an entire home theater for less than the price of the most popular sound bar. And I don't know if the than the price of the most popular sound bar. And I don't know if the Bose TV speaker is the most popular sound bar today, but it was the last time we did a why is everybody buying this sound bar.

It was the most popular sound bar on, I believe, Amazon was the platform that we were using for that series at that time. And the amount of criticism for this video slash the extremely low performance of this video has been a little demoralizing for me, to be perfectly honest with you. I've seen a lot of people that are kind of dunking on it for being, you know, another Facebook Marketplace video. I've seen a fair number of people dunking on it because we're comparing against a new soundbar Instead of comparing against a secondhand soundbar, so they see it as kind of like an unfair fight I've seen quite a few people say that You know the odds of them being able to find the exact parts that we're using are

Basically zero therefore this is not applicable to anybody and I gotta say guys, I I don't know I I Don't know I don't know how to deal. I don't know how to deal with that And if the video was performing great like if it was getting a ton of views Then it would be fine But I guess what I'm trying to say is like I I'm looking at this going, like, real tech tips might not be sustainable, like, if this type, if people are... What did I do? What can I do differently? I guess is what I'm asking, because, like, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your, to your Finding the exact AV receiver that we did yeah the point is the journey did you watch the video by any chance?

Wasn't this one I watched a different one so basically what we what we did was we we got a few different options We started and center audio one got it. We started with an old home theater in the box So it was it was a number of years old and it was probably around 500 bucks when it was new But it was like 40 bucks today, which realistically for those kind of low quality, semi-proprietary surround solutions, probably more like it. They tend to be a little bit overpriced at MSRP,

but if you can get them on clearance, they can actually be a pretty great deal. So we started with one of those and showed that even for $40 on like a marketplace site like Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace, we could absolutely obliterate this thing. We were unflinching in our acknowledgement of the the inconvenience and and the wiring mess. That was another thing, man. I saw people like defending soundbars super hard the ease of use, and I'm like, guys, we acknowledge that so directly that I just,

I just, I don't know how we can acknowledge it more. We stepped it up by upgrading our left and rights so that, particularly for watching anything with music in it, which is like all content, we could get a bit better of a soundtrack experience. We upgraded our amplifier, or maybe we upgraded the amplifier before we changed the speed, whatever.

But we got a cheap AVR, and with the intention not of using it for video switching, because you can't use an older one for video switching if you want to run like you know a modern 4k display or whatever the case may be so we got an old amp and old amps like they're still great amplifiers if you buy something that was decent ten years ago fifteen years ago you can still get a really nice amplifier and then you just don't run your video through it which for most people is fine because your TV is probably gonna have anywhere from two on the very very low

end to four inputs anyway so you just run everything through there and then we added a subwoofer and then we added some cheap towers that we got and the final configuration was probably around two hundred and forty40 compared to the Bose TV speaker which is $250. And our point was just, and there were so many tech tips along the way, I guess is what I'm trying to get to here, sort of talking about speaker impedance, best practices, talking

about what you can do if you don't have eARC support on your receiver, so talking about what you can do if you don't have eARC support on your receiver. So talking about optical connections and the good things about it and the limitations of it. And I think honestly, past a certain view count, there just isn't really room for it. Maybe I'm being too doomer about this. I would like to, maybe I'm being too doomer about this. I would like to think that I'm being too doomer about this, but I don't necessarily think I am. I think a pretty good example of this of maybe Michael Reeves. When you look at some of Michael Reeves videos, if I remember correctly,

um, his very early videos, he talked more about the programming that was involved and showed more of it and these days it's usually like a comical montage where sections of the code like fly past the screen like it's it's it's different people don't actually care I know there was there was like if you think about old YouTube there was a lot of videos that were like tutorials on how to do something. And the people that were making the tutorials on how to do something videos realized that no one was actually doing it.

They were just watching them for the content, so they tried to push entertainment. And it started leaving the actual tutorial space. There's some really good insight in floatplane chat. Like some people are saying, yeah I really liked it. To be clear, I mean 900,000 plus people watched it and like the like dislike ratio is fine. Like it's not like people are hating on it. I'm just trying to figure out how to make like like someone here said, where's their comment, maybe it was just not that great of a video, can we just move on? Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

But the point is like I'm trying to figure out how to make this more accessible because I want people to save money. Like that's why we do this, that's why we started doing this in the first place, right? Is bringing the people tech tips. And we wanna do it in an entertaining way, but we want to help.

So I'm trying to figure this out. Why does being critical of the content, me and the video was bad. Okay, no, no, hold on. There's some really good comments on it. So some people are saying, in my area, marketplace, especially for this kind of stuff, is kind of terrible.

I sometimes have to travel a couple hours for a deal on gaming computers. Yeah, well that's a thing. Like that's a thing here too. And we acknowledge the time spent in it, and I think that mindset of sort of bargain hunting is what we're trying to get across So maybe that's something that we need to acknowledge more directly is like hey this has a cost in time

Like do you think that's something that would help? Maybe I Don't know was that not explained Kompets and Bolson says I found it a bit hard to get what the point of the video was. I felt like it was a little bit all over the place. So maybe it's something where we need a bit of a better summary or we need-

I've seen a couple other comments like that. We need more like visuals to kind of drive it along. Bordaga, I think probably has the best comment I've seen on it so far. I bet the same video would have blown up if you'd done five versus 50 versus $500 home theater speaker Set up and that is that is that is probably the best

Maybe we just should Maybe we should maybe we should revisit it and like keep that same stuff Get a five dollar option. We've already got our $50 option We upgrade our our two hundred fifty dollar option a little bit. We take it to $500. We get a $5,000 option, and then we like, contact some, we contact clips or something, and we like borrow, yeah, we borrow like a $50,000 option, and then we just, we do it again. Postman says, as an AV professional I really enjoyed the video and the journey I guess maybe that's maybe that's the

thing is maybe maybe the journey is too hard to follow along maybe like simplifying the format to like 5 versus 50 versus 500 is is the way to go. I did see a fair amount of comments on like maybe there should have been a better explainer at the beginning because I didn't understand what the video was about. Telesco says, you called everyone out for making the worst choice. You made your audience butt hurt. I am in this tweet and don't like it. That's probably a good point too. Like, are we, so then, is part of this that people are watching tech tips just to be just to know their choice was validated as opposed to We've known that forever

That has been true I can know something I can know something cognitively without fully We've legit talked about that being willing to accept that NCIX That makes me sad though, yeah, I know but why aren't we allowed to say hey this thing that's super popular is not that great Like man, do you remember when probably about like nine years ago? ATHM 50s these garbage headphones like popped off in popularity because of some Some like I don't know they, they got a lot of attention. Let's just say they got a lot of attention for a little while. And you and I were both kind of sitting there going like, what? What? Like people buy these because they're disposable

rubbish. That's why they use them in the studio, not because they're good. What is happening right now? Um, and I do genuinely think if we had come out and made a video when that trend took off That was like the a thm 50s are not very good and people need to stop buying them We probably would have just gotten destroyed. I think it's one of the two you either are Right after or are the turn of the tide or you get slaughtered one of the two if you're the turn of the tide Then your video's gonna explode. But if people aren't ready for it yet, so you're not the turn of the tide,

then we'll just crap on you. Isaac V says, it was hard to follow. You scrambled a lot of parts and I didn't really get what was happening. By the way, I would like a lot more technical details and what they're about. Okay, so those two things are definitely not gonna work together.

A ton more technical details is going to make it a little harder to follow. I can promise you that. But I do agree that kind of like in the last Scrapyard Wars, where we went back, we basically sent the edit back to the kitchen. You never saw the original edit. I sent the edit back to the kitchen. I said, look, you guys take however much time you need and make sure that we have these on-screen visuals that make it really clear What parts we have now what we've added what we're subtracting who we're negotiating with and and where the money stands and even Then one prominent viewer couldn't figure out that I was never at a negative balance, so Yes, that's in spite of our best efforts in spite of our best efforts Schwifty says I totally watch reviews for things I've already bought and that's that sort of validates your validation seeking I do sometimes too but it's not

necessarily it's like kind of to see where it's at, if that makes sense. And there's there's products where like, you know, I'll do some research on it. I'll buy it. I'll try it out. I'm like, yeah, like it's it's working. But you know, it's not 100%. And then I'll see some new product comes out. It'll get compared against that new product. And then I'll be like, Oh, yeah, okay, I probably should have waited. This isn't great. Like I allow my opinion to be changed. Or honestly, I'll sometimes buy something, someone will review it against something else

and say that it's crap versus the thing that they like. And I'll be like, yeah, I just don't agree. But like, that's fine. Tim says there was a bit of difficulty when you were between the two systems like you had the center channel from this one But the receiver from another one I had a bit of difficulty knowing where the value was halfway through But it all kind of came together at the end And I think that is probably another like gold star good comment Because

Hard I still make videos with the Intention that people watch the whole thing because I still make videos with the intention that people watch the whole thing. I know better than that. Yeah, yeah. You almost have to make like multiple videos. You almost, yeah, you need to have like the payoff, payoff, payoff, payoff. And it kind of kills.

The 20% viewer video, the 40% viewer video, the 60% viewer video. You can never have like, where's he going with this? It always just has to be very clear. And that's something that is easy for me to forget because I've always... Kind of hard to write for, I imagine. Yes and no. I mean, that five versus 50 versus 500 format...

That kind of flows. Yeah, sure. So yeah, I guess you kind of have to shoehorn into a format that works for it, or it might be more difficult to write for. I suspect that's the case. Sock Hattabee says, the established tiers seemed to borrow stuff from the others a bit too much,

which made it harder to follow for some reason. Yep, I think that's very fair. In fairness to me, I didn't source the stuff, and so I didn't know exactly how it was all gonna go together. So I was kind of working with what I had, but that's really valid, and I think that's something that I and the content team could have worked on ahead of time to make it more accessible by having a well-understood format. I think that's what it basically boils down to is we could have done a better job visually

of showing exactly what it was we were doing and having a better established format wouldn't hurt. I also think that some people kind of got fixated on details that didn't matter. I saw some people talking about how, well, I don't even have a home theater room. And it's like, well, that's that's not the point we're shooting in here because it's really convenient but you could do this anywhere and and I think a lot of people kind of missed that um okay yeah I'm looking into booking a ride right now lieutenant salty the video was important too many people have crappy soundbars

and have no idea what they're missing. Yeah, I mean, that was why we did it. I thought it was a really important video. Mantisa says, are you just focusing too much on a loud minority? No, because the whole point of this is that last thing that I just read. So many people have the wrong thing and like need

to hear this and it might not work for everybody. Not everybody has the space. Not everybody has the wife acceptance factor to be able to put a bunch of random speakers they found on Craigslist in their living space, right? It's not going to be applicable to everyone, but I do think that before you make that decision You should be well informed. That's it. I want people to make informed decisions and that was why we made that video like if you're interested in tech like me like If you're interested in tech if you don't have a TV even I think it can still be an interesting journey to see what someone

Would do to set up that type of a system? I don't have a TV even. I think it can still be an interesting journey to see what someone would do to set up that type of a system. Yeah, because surely you might have friends and you wanna be the knowledgeable tech expert in your group. Yeah, you wanna be informed, right? I assume, right? Like I'm, I think so, right? All right, why don't we jump into our next topic?

Traffic's looking good, I can leave slightly later. Why we weren't able to say more. Oh, alright, great, let's do another topic like that. Hooray! So a lot of people last week were upset, frustrated, disappointed that we weren't able to say more about the channel hiatuses last week. And there are two main reasons. Number one is that it's the law.

And it's the law. And it's funny, I ended up kind of in exchanges with a couple of people where I said that and they were like, yeah, but, and I was like, no, there is no yeah, but. Yeah. It is just the law. About certain things, it's completely inflexible. I cannot disclose literally anything

about someone else's personal life, including their employment status. I was just gonna say, and to be honest, for good reason. Sometimes it would be nice if you could, but the law should exist. And that's number two, because it's like the right thing to do. Like let's say, let's say hypothetically, that you were no longer at your job tomorrow. Whether you quit, or you were laid off or you were fired Sort of immaterial During your exit interview the HR manager asks you. Hey, do you mind if we talk about the circumstances on our podcast?

You would think they lost their fucking minds right but that is what a minds, right? But that is what a not insignificant number of people were asking me to do. To be fair about me in particular, I wouldn't necessarily think that, but it would still be the law. Yes. And it doesn't matter how much anyone externally feels like they're entitled to it. They're not. Yeah. They're not entitled to it. I saw some suggestions that we just provide information about the folks that we're parting amicably with,

for example. Well, we always try to part amicably, but it's not always possible. And the issue there is that if we acknowledge some folks and not others, it's pretty easy to do the math. Simple deductive logic, and then the conjecture starts, right? We used to talk about stuff way more, like we'd bring people onto the podcast on their last day. Or like Nick Van Berkel, for example, is an example. For example, is an

example. Yeah, he made like a farewell video on Channel Superfund. But what we've realized over time is that it's not a sustainable practice because as soon as there isn't a farewell video or an announcement or whatever the case may be, people start speculating and the rumor mill spins so much faster than we can possibly respond to any of it. I also saw some folks that were asking for way more detail about the business decision side of things. Again, though, let's put yourself in their shoes.

Okay, Luke, you are no longer working on a project, and someone else who has a way louder megaphone than you goes and talks about whatever it is that led for your project to be shelved or cancelled or whatever else. Do you think that would reflect on you a little bit? Possibly, maybe. Yes, it could affect future employment potential. It would be a blow to morale immediately for sure. I would be frustrated about that. Because there's almost no way

that they're going to say everything. And there's no way that we're gonna say, if something got canceled, right? Almost certainly there was something that went wrong with it at some point in some way. So if I were to say like, hey, we're gonna talk about all of the completely unsustainable practices at Float Plane that led for it to be shelved.

Nice. You're gonna be like, excuse me? Yeah. And then it creates this background drama. Well, you were supposed to be the business arm. Blub blub blub blub. Exactly, exactly, which, you know, is valid. Also, Float Plane is not unsustainable.

The reason we're using Luke as an example, and the reason we're using his project as an example, is just illustrative. It's to show you guys why these conversations don't take place in public and shouldn't. And just because we've made mistakes in the past doesn't mean that we should just continue to make them in the name of, like, what, morbid curiosity? Like, that's not a good reason. So I'm really sorry to have disappointed some of you. Looking at the comments from last week's WAN show,

quite a few members of our community were extremely upset. And I think that a big part of that is on me. I should have explained this in more detail. I do this thing sometimes where I think that stuff is sort of self-evident. And it's not because people live in all kinds of different places around the world where where laws and norms are different. People come from all different walks of life. People have their own value systems.

So to me this one was obvious based on all the experience that I've had doing it the other way and seeing what an absolute clusterfuck it is. You guys don't have that experience. So you didn't know. This isn't a choice that helps. I don't benefit from not offering explanations or justifications for the actions of our team or our company. That doesn't help me. When the rumor mill swirls because I can't give additional details about something, I don't benefit, guys. But it is a choice that is designed not for my benefit, not for your benefit. It's designed to minimize the impact on our team members, both current and former. Don't expect this policy to be altered going forward.

Because you'd be wrong. Cool. Good chat. Yeah. Do you want to talk about full screen ads for copilot plus PCs on Windows 10? So sick. This is pretty cool. Microsoft is aggressively prompting Windows 10 users to upgrade, employing full screen ads that highlight Windows 11 features, particularly those on Copilot Plus PCs.

These ads coincide with the approaching end of free security updates for Windows 10 in October 2025. While an extended security update or ESU program exists for a fee, the ads predominantly push new PC purchases. This aggressive marketing tactic isn't new for Microsoft. They've used similar methods for past OS upgrades, sometimes just forcing them on you anyways, and users can still upgrade to Windows 11 directly on compatible PCs as an alternative. Discussion question is where's the limit? Every mainstream non Linux operating system, and even some of the

Linux based ones would fall under the definition of adware at this point. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Where's my iPhone? Here, hold on. I haven't used Mac OS. Do they have ads baked into Mac OS? I have I have literally check this out. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Give me I've used my voice but not act give me a sec. Check this out. I didn't notice any I Have I have left them because I I wanted to I wanted to remember how many there were I have Mac OS doesn't have ads. So that's not that's not correct. I have three Mac OS never prompts you to like buy iCloud Are you sure?

No, what I'm saying? Okay, fair enough enough what I'm saying is that Windows has other ads well here. Windows makes in ads from everybody. It's not even just their own stuff. Yeah I'm sorry but I don't I don't I don't have I don't think there's I don't draw a distinction. That's fair enough. Okay so so on iOS right now my Apple account suggestions I have three persistent notifications in my settings app for this. My iPhone's not backed up, okay, that's valid. However, my second notification is your iPhone can't be backed up. Upgrade for $1.29 a month. And then my third notification is some iCloud data isn't syncing, which again,

is related to me not having enough storage, which they have kindly offered to solve for me for money. And then I have- I mean, that is how that would work. I have three, well, no. They could allow me to quickly and easily- Pray for free? Back up to my NAS or my computer. Remember-

Can you do that in another way with your party app? Back, I mean, maybe. But I don't have an ad from Apple about that. Apple doesn't notify me that that's a possibility. So is this in your settings thing? Yeah, I don't know. It's right, it's in my, well no, I got notifications for them at some point.

Okay, okay. Oh yeah. And then I have three notifications for services included with purchase. Let's see, what do I have? I get Apple TV free for three months. I get Apple News Plus. So it's the purchase of the phone. Yeah, but of course I'm gonna have to sign up for a subscription that is going to...

It's a very generous three months. Thank you very much for after my, you know, $1,100 or $1,200 phone or whatever this is. But I'm gonna end up with subscriptions at some point. Yeah, people are really mad about you about you thinking that like they shouldn't offer or okay hold on hold on hold on okay guys no no no I am NOT I am NOT necessarily saying that Apple should be well no I think I think they should be be forced to present me with an alternative option. No, actually no.

You know what? I do think that. One person's just particularly mad because Apple's limit has been five gigs, basically forever. And they've done that intentionally, knowing that you're going to have to buy... Yeah, but they don't have to provide that. No, but I think the thing that's... I think the thing that is bad is that they don't give

me a free alternative. If they're going to give you a native notification and not give a free alternative, that's pretty annoying. If it's just in your settings thing and it's like, hey, you could do this. That's not too big of a deal to me personally, but giving you notifications, yeah, breaks that line. Especially because they used to. You used to be able to quickly and easily just plug a cable into your computer and back up to iTunes.

Yeah. Yeah. But no. They want you to buy cloud storage now. People are saying you can back up your phone over USB still. So I guess the frustrating thing is just that they aren't presenting that, oh, apparently Apple's being sued over this in the UK. Oh, that's hilarious. Okay, so I was uh... Yeah, you can still use iTunes, so that's good. They just don't tell you. So back to what I said in the beginning, I think they should present you with the free option.

Yeah, cool. Rather than just saying, hey, oh no, oh my god, your iPhone's not backed up. Buy storage, buy cloud storage from us. Wow, good guy UK, good job. Well, that's a valid reason to want USB 3 on the iPhone. I actually didn't really think about that when we talked about the original implementation of USB-C on the iPhone 15 family,

I didn't think about faster backups with the pro versions that have, I believe it's five gigabit per second, right? Is it five or 10? I think it's five. Pixel bugs you to buy drive storage. But one kind of point that I will give to them, and I don't know if iOS does this,

is it will also suggest that you delete old photos that it thinks are just of garbage. If it's a parking location or something that you like, it doesn't think you need anymore, it'll be like, hey, you can get rid of all this stuff. Or hey, you haven't opened this app in a year, you should just uninstall it. It'll give you suggestions on reducing the amount of data that you have, which I think is kind of neat, but they do try to push you to buy more.

Kumo Star in Floatplane Chat made a really good point. What's really ridiculous is they've had Time Machine on Mac OS for like a bazillion years and didn't ever let you do that on the iPhone. There is absolutely no reason from like an ecosystem user experience standpoint that I shouldn't be able to just arrive at home and my iPhone shouldn't just Wi-Fi sync to my time machine that I literally already have because I literally already have a Mac.

Apparently Apple does that too. I don't know. I don't use iOS. I wasn't saying in contrast to Apple. I was just saying that I do like that they do that. To be clear, we started this segment with every mainstream operating system is functionally adware now. Yeah.

And it's really frustrating. Apparently you can Wi-Fi sync to iTunes. Well, why not? Why not Time Machine? Is there a reason to not be able to do that to my NAS that supports Time Machine? I don't know, man. I just, it just, it doesn't seem,

it doesn't seem intuitive to me. No one's fighting that Deep Blue. Deep Blue says, at Luke, why does the pixel not prompt me to add a different cloud account like Dropbox or Nextcloud when I don't have enough drive storage? I'm not, I'm not defending Google. In, this isn't, this isn't this isn't Man you start talking about Android or iOS and people just immediately are

It this isn't a wife. I think that one versus the other is apparently not automatic And Archangel of Death says it would be too convenient of an alternative to buy more iCloud. Yes. Yes That's that's the whole point that that's what we're trying to say also I don't want to back up to my desktop PC because I don't wanna have a RAID array in my desktop PC. I wanna back up to my NAS. I wanna use Time Machine. Like if I was an Apple user, that is what I would want. I would want it to go to Time Machine.

That would be sick. What's also super, Time Machine is cool. Time Machine has always been cool, to be honest. It is so cool. And it's like, it's not not even it's one of those things It's not even like unique like snapshot based backup tools. It's just a billion years. It's good, and it's integrated yeah And the only reason for them to not build a good Integrated thing is so that they can sell you

Their own storage solution their own cloud storage yeah Their own storage solution their own cloud storage. Yeah Anyway This is super cool. This is the last thing that we really need to talk about before you go have you seen? The land party house. I was wondering if you're gonna see this yes I have what the heck you should like go or something. I would actually Love to the way pretty cool, the way that this room folds up. Dude, it's so sick. And stealthifies.

Yeah, so closed station to the right. It just looks like the wall. And you can see, so the doors at the bottom support the desk like, oh man. This is so- Really cool. Incredibly thoughtful. DDR panels under the floor. This is so- They show is so using them later cool

The upstairs office we can get in here too Yeah, and there's a there's keyboard like what looks like pull out keyboard trays or no that might just be keyboard storage I'm not sure because this one's just kind of sitting here like even better than that That is so cool flip up monitors That is wild. Oh wait yeah yeah wow so that was literally a keyboard you saw they just flip it up that is so cool just extra I hadn't looked through the whole thing pre-show because I wanted to I wanted to do it live cable management stealthy stealthy absolutely love it killer conduit look at, look at this.

Look at this, they've got actual like cable trays up in the ceiling, just like you'd have in like a data center. Call rooms, like they're in an office. Look at this. That's so sick. Look at this, this is hilarious. 20 identical machines, personal desktops,

door leads to the hot side oh my goodness this is so cool dude it's wicked this is so cool apparently it was like a million dollars yeah he gads this photo has made a lot of network engineers angry oh cuz they're not using a patch panel response in in the Q&A. Okay, yeah, this was a mistake. I'm a software guy. Yeah, okay. Fair enough, sounds good. Got you, got you.

Two gigabit per second fibernet. This is crazy, look at this. Can you imagine working at the micro center when someone comes in? Hey, I'll take everything. Yeah. Thank you. How many, I'd like to buy a 40 you. How many I'd like to I'd like to buy a 4070 how many yes? That was I guarantee you that was fun as hell

Assembly yeah, man. Look at this space. It's just so It's so enticing yeah Beautiful the house has normal parts too. Yeah, love to see it Yeah, beautiful. The house has normal parts too, yeah, love to see it. Dude, look at this. Cat door leads into the kids' bedrooms, I love it. I have wanted to do this since before we moved into our new place, like little cat shelves

and stuff on the wall, just haven't gotten around to it. Apparently one of their parents is like, works in architectural design or something. Sorry? Cloudflare. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, like works in architectural design or something. Sorry? Cloudflare. Oh no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no If I were to design my own house from scratch, I would 100% do it. If you never have to look at it and smell it, like, man, cats are like the best pets ever. The worst thing about them is the litter. Dude, so cool. Oh, it's space under the stairwells.

Dude, I could totally convert one of those spaces in my place to a cat bathroom. Dude! The downstairs one, definitely. I should do that. and the main stairwell. I could totally make a little door in there, and I don't know how humans would access it, but cats definitely could. Couple guest rooms. Dude, this roof deck like what? Like freaking what?

Oh yeah, amazing. Um, yeah! Super, super cool project. I would love to come check it out. I'm inviting myself to go do a tour. I mean, honestly, I think they already did a great job of doing a tour of the place, but I still would love to just check it out and geek out over it. Yeah. Incredible.

Someone one-upped my host, Land Center., yeah, it's a great title. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great title Slightly better than they also they didn't one up it. They like six kind of smashed it. Yeah Yeah, like I didn't even think about Going like oh you thought we had one land center. Yeah, what about second? Crazy, I love it so sick They're like, oh you thought we had one land center? No. What about second land center? Like it's crazy. I love it. So sick. It's impressive to see anyone that dedicated

to pretty much anything. And because it happens to be something that I think is super cool and I'm also into, it's that much cooler. I think they did an amazing, amazing job of their setup. Do you need to go? You're like getting pretty anxious here so that's fine. Get out of here. Okay. Get out of here. Topics? What do you want to... Yeah, I'll finish off the topics and then we can do a couple of Merch messages. I

guess it'll just be me and you then. Let's see, yep, there's only a couple. I'm so excited for this. Android will apparently finally be able to instantly log you into your apps on new devices. This has been a huge pain point for me because I have so many accounts and two factors and dependencies that I basically cannot use a phone

until probably three or four hours after I first start setting it up and it's annoying because for my job I switch phones a lot more than probably most people and I have like I have like I get like anxiety When I need to switch phones Google has announced restore credentials Which will allow apps to seamlessly log users into their accounts on new Android device After user restores their apps and data from a previous device. Oh! If they could do it in a way that's like secure.

That's, yeah, that's why I started looking at this weird. Luke, I'm so excited! I just can't hide it! I think this particularly for reviewers is going to be amazing. The user experience should be as if they had already been using the new device. They would even receive notifications from apps that have not yet been opened using the new device. They would even receive notifications from apps that have not yet been opened on the new device. How it works. Signing into an app on the old device

will create a restore key, which is stored locally and backed up to the cloud. Apps can opt out of cloud backup. Don't you dare. The restore key is a public key compatible with passkey slash FIDO2 backends and uses the same server side implementation as passkeys. When setting up the new device,

the user can restore data from a cloud backup or transfer data locally. Why is Google doing this is a question here. I don't care. I'm not asking that. It's great. Am I, does this counter my rant about Google early in the show not doing anything?

This is innovation. I am like, This is actually pretty cool. So excited about this. Okay, my ride's gonna be here in two minutes I'm gonna go according to the Android developer blog 40% of people in the US reset or replace a smartphone every year that's a big one forget even like getting a new phone the number of Device manufacturers where you're like, hey, I'm having a problem and their immediate response is to heart to reset the phone

It's like do you have any idea how much f**king homework you just gave me? Resetting my phone, that sucks. Resetting your device sucks. Anyway, they say that making the process of logging back into apps on a new phone much faster and easier will help avoid app abandonment and user churn. Okay, well that part of it I'm not that into

if it's just to make sure I keep paying my subscriptions like a good little boy but Whatever I still love it. Oh Hold on the Android developer blog Apparently the 40% is probably an overestimate our notes here say that's probably incorrect various statistics Have it at more like 10 to 20 percent max But anyway, I'm in that 10 to 20 percent. And so I'm extremely, extremely excited about this. And I can't overstate how excited I am about it. Our last topic, which I'm less excited about, is Microsoft Ignite 2024. There

is some good stuff. Microsoft announced the Windows Resiliency Initiative. Quick machine recovery allows IT admins to remotely apply fixes to PCs that can't boot, so this is in response to the CrowdStrike issue earlier this year. Windows 11 Enterprise now supports hot patching in public preview. No reboot required. Okay, that is pretty cool. Administrator protection. Standard users can temporarily gain admin privileges by authenticating with Windows Hello and more. And then next up we've got the Windows 365 link. This is a little less exciting. A $350 edge PC that only serves as a client to access

a Windows 365 cloud PC. It supports dual 4K monitors, has four USB ports, an ethernet port, Wi-Fi 6E, and Bluetooth 5.3 and will be available in April 2025. My only question is, why does this need to exist in a world where the Mac Mini also exists? Cloud powered performance. The Mac Mini is a rip and fast PC for yes, more, but I would say considering that it is a full fat, like awesome PC for that price is a lot more compelling. But hey, we'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes.

Microsoft also announced new AI powered customizable co-pilot agents that are rolling out in Microsoft 365, aka Office. Like the facilitator agent, which can take real-time notes during Teams meetings and chats, which is in public preview now. We use a third-party tool for that, so this is actually kind of useful for us. Interpreter agent, which provides real-time speech-to-speech interpretation during meetings, even optionally simulating the user's voice, public preview in early 2025. And an employee self-service agent, which can answer

common policy questions and facilitate tasks related to HR and IT. Okay, maybe I'm getting more excited. It was just the Windows 365 link that I was like, eh. Because Microsoft 365 is all copilotified, Microsoft is adding a little copilot badges to the app icons for Word, Excel, PowerPoint, etc. And best of all, they're changing the Microsoft 365 logo to something pretty similar to the co-pilot logo, but with an M365 badge. This is a terrible logo. terrible logo. Oh wow, it says please watch this 10 second clip with audio to hear Ignite attendees enthusiasm for this change. Sure, you've got some audio playing so mute, something else first. Yeah, I will do that. Give me one sec. I I would imagine they're gonna sound about like what I just sounded like looking at that logo. I had not I had not seen that yet and it is not very good

Here we go. All right, ten second clip then should it work? Yep. Okay, here we go Icon to the new Microsoft 365 co-pilot icon. Oh Boy Microsoft 365 Copilot icon. Oh boy. Wow. That was the shortest polite applause that I think I have ever heard at a keynote. Wow. This last part is actually super cool. Also rolling out now for MetaQuest 3 and 3S users

is the ability to access a local or cloud-based Windows instance and interact with multiple virtual monitors. Whew, that's looking pretty cool and comes at a much lower price than an Apple Vision Pro and a MacBook. So I can see people being pretty stoked on that one as well. Good gravy! Was that ever savage though.

Wow. I think I might even, even as much as I don't like it, I think I could probably muster a little bit more fake enthusiasm than that. Yikes. All right, why don't we switch over to WAN after dark, Mr. Dan Besser? Can do. Whoa, we need to switch the WAN show to this time forever. Our concurrence on YouTube are like 15%, 20% higher than usual.

That's higher than... very high. I'm showing 16. Oh, never mind, there we go. Everybody stop watching. Yeah. Yeah, we should do that. Oh man, I don't wanna get up early on Fridays though. Me too, this sucks. It's actually 5,000 YouTube is there's an error.

Yeah, yeah, it's a reporting error. It's a reporting error. The dashboard is broken. Exactly. Oh crap, okay. You know what's funny is we always did it at the later time because, Okay, you know what's funny is we always did it at the later time because

And I don't want to make anyone else feel unappreciated but we always did it at the later time because The Australian Crew was like so into being able to catch Wanshow and so vocal about it that we picked the afternoon on Fridays because it would be not a work night for the East Coast in North America, so they could kind of stay up and watch it. And it would be in the morning for the Australians to watch. And we've just kind of, we just kind of, we, our European audience was a lot less vocal and a lot smaller back then. And so we have always been kind of Aussie accommodating. And maybe it's because, I don't know, maybe it's because I kind of think of Australians

as probably one of the closest cultures to Canada. Maybe I felt like some kinship, you know, we're both kind of like... They're like sorry but with spiders. Yeah, we're still kind of Commonwealth but like, you know, kind of f*** King Charles, you know? Like, I don't know, we just always kind of seemed... We always kind of seemed on the same page about things, but... Yeah, this is... Wow, this is a lot higher viewership than usual. I haven't looked at the analytics at all.

I hadn't either, yeah. No, this is concerning. Outlier? Um, okay, yeah, maybe. Well, I'm not promising anything because the work week is very challenging here in a lot of ways, and I'm often mentally really tired. Like to be clear, I don't think that I work a hard manual labor job or anything like that,

but it can be mentally very exhausting. And early morning on my Fridays is not my favorite time to have to be like on for two to four hours. That's another thing too, is doing it at the end of the workday on Friday means that we can just kind of like, not disturb anybody and we can go for as long as we need to until we... Yeah, we're blocking like three or four sets right now.

Yeah. We can't do a short circuit, nobody can come in the building, we can't do tech linked, nobody can be upstairs. Why do you keep moving yourself? You're my only co-host right now, Dan. Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about that. Uh... I should try and move the camera over slightly if I can do that. Might not be a terrible idea.

Anyway yeah so okay I didn't consider that so there definitely won't be any changes anytime soon but yeah I'm definitely I'm definitely liking y'all hanging out with us that's pretty cool. It's kind of fun. All right want to hit me with a handful of merch messages and then I guess we should get out of people's way. Yeah probably. Let's see with graphics card running hotter and the 4090 already being a 60 millimeter thick will we eventually see tower coolers as standard? Would you consider janking one together for a current or next gen? I mean dude dude, I would have, a few short years ago, I would have said,

no, that's just a silly mod that people do. And we're always gonna need to keep our slots open for additional add-in cards. What add-in cards do people even install anymore? What are we supposed to, like most motherboards, like they, high-end motherboards, this is a funny thing. It used to be.

Oh, pisses me off so much. Dude, remember when high-end motherboards had more PCIe slots? Yeah, I will pay more for extra because I need a lot of PCI cards sometimes. Yeah, now it's like actually. And it's one. Yeah, basic boards, especially like MATX.

MATX is one that drives me absolutely bonkers, because the high-end ones will remove PCIe slots, but they're not even full-size ATX boards, so they don't have like 5 or 6 m.2 slots on them, so I'm sitting here going, what did you do with the lanes? Why am I paying extra for this if you're not putting like a PLX chip on it and giving me all the slots? What happened? Basic MATX boards have all the slots. What's happening here? Exactly. And so, yeah, now that this trend of people only install GPUs in their systems

because GPUs cost so much we can't afford other cards, just not the real reason. But I don't know, might be a contributor. I don't know. I mean, what I will say is that I wouldn't be surprised if 5090 coolers are about the same size as 4090 coolers, even with the rumored increase in TDP. And the reason for that is that the rumor is

that 4090 coolers were designed for a much higher TDP because Nvidia kind of rug pulled their board partners on what the exact heat output of the card was gonna be. So I don't think they're gonna get bigger in the next generation. But with that said, man, I don't think anything's off the table anymore. Oh man, dude, how cool would it be, Dan,

if we had, oh, I guess I should look this way at you, even though you're physically over there. Yeah, sure, that works. Oh my goodness. How cool would it be if we had a standard where you're kind of like the old trash can Mac Pro, right, where you've got your CPU socket and then you've got your GPU and the die is on the top

and you could just do like a gigantic combo cooler and then just have like front to back airflow that goes right through it. Ah, yeah, I'd like that. That'd be sick. Or like you could have your CPU cooler here and then just have like front to back airflow that goes right through it. Ah, yeah, I'd like that. That'd be sick. Like you could have your CPU cooler here and then maybe another thing that kind of wraps around it. Yeah. So you can still remove them.

Or you could move the CPU socket more to the right of the board. Yeah. And then you could, because you'd have such a large cooler, like a GPU, even though it kicks out so much heat, is a larger die. It's easier to move the heat away from. So you could cool your smaller die CPU where you really need that temperature differential between the air and the fins, or rather, and the processor itself. And then you could take that semi-heated air, blow that through like a large cooler for

the GPU. So you could either do them serial or you could do them like split like you have the CPU on the one side and the GPU on the one side and then you could just have like a tunnel that you're blowing air down that kind of cools each on both sides or I think probably the most effective design would be like the trash can which really did a great job of cool of removing that much heat for its size and for its noise and then you would just have like heat pipes coming off the GPU, heat pipes coming off the CPU into this like a great big FinStack.

That would be freaking cool. And maybe we should start seeing like, you know, CPU chips just come as a chip. When can we get GPUs that do that? Oh, it's never gonna happen. I know, it would be nice though. It's never gonna happen. I think what pisses me off mostly

about the new motherboards these days is, again, yeah, lack of PCI lanes. PCI Gen 5 came out, all the boards put it on it. It has like a thousand PCI Gen 4 lanes. What speed do GPUs run out, Linus? PCI Gen 4 times eight? For now. For now? For now. For now?

For now. I would like to see, I'd like to see the desktop use the additional bandwidth of PCI Gen 5 differently. I would actually, rather than see a PCIe by 16 GPU slot, I would like to see everyone get together and kind of go, hey, can we all acknowledge that 16 current generation lanes is utterly unnecessary and can we start putting 8x slots as our primary GPU slot and using those lanes somewhere else?

Having more slots, having more IO, having more more storage ports having more IO, having more storage ports. You know, I... But the new consumer, the PCI-5 came out. I need the new nice big thing that's the new number, right? Well, hold on, there is some... I see PCI Gen 4 times X. You know, I've got a motherboard that has seven PCI slots.

I know what I'm buying. Average consumer sees top-of-the-line board, PCI Gen 5, they know that it, they don't know that the GPUs don't even run at the speeds. I have a justification, Dan. I have a justification for this. Go for it. If I still had a 16x slot, right, PCI Gen 5 by 16, and a PCIe Gen 6 card comes out, right? I could take that, I could put it in my Gen 5 slot, and I'd still be getting half of its total theoretical bandwidth. If we move to by 8 interfaces, I will be getting now, and we get like a 16x card and I put it in my 8x slot, that's a Gen old, I will be getting a quarter of the

theoretical bandwidth, which could actually impact performance. Another thing, a lot of the CPU and Northbridge lanes are shared. If I put too many NVMe drives in, it disables PCI slots. If I put too many SATA drives in, it disables PCI slots. What if you just give me eight slots on the board and then we can adjust which ones are active or not. Dude, server boards. That's kind of what I'm talking about, right?

That's basically how they work now. Exactly. You don't even have slots on them. They just have those little, what's that mini whatever connector called? Jake sent me the wildest looking board that was pretty, I think it was from ASRock Rack where it just had no slots on it and just the entire bottom of the board was covered in those PCI-E riser connectors. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's so cool because then you can you just design your

chassis around that and you just like carry PCI-E wherever you want it, storage devices, GPUs. Basically, that would be super nice. Like taking the PCI standard to its logical conclusion and just making everything like an add-in card. Yeah, not OcuLink. It taking the PCI standard to its logical conclusion and just making everything like an add-in card. Yeah, not OcuLink. It's the newer one. It's escaping me right now. I have no idea. Yeah, I can't remember. No, it's not OcuLink.

Oh yeah, bifurcation is another huge thing. I've got a quad M.2 drive thing in there. Adding cable cost though is going to kill the deal on consumer consumer like for servers yes but not for not for yeah but it gives manufacturers the opportunity to sell more dongles yeah I mean think of the dongles line like it they'll love it they'll push it for just that I think case it would really change case design that would be that would be super cool if all of a sudden you could kind of like creatively mount cards anywhere. But looking at how little adoption we've seen for PCIe risers, like it's still niche in the small form factor space or like the vertical mounts. Like it's still, I would say, at most, probably 1% of PCs if you factor in pre-builds, probably less.

Like I just don't think most people are gonna be willing to absorb that additional cost. Probably not. All right, what else we got today? Okay, thanks for the early show. Now I can watch it work, since I work in a data center myself. I love that video tour.

Was there anything that you learned that you want to apply to your home's pool loop? Those leak detection cords are super cool. Like being able to know exactly where it is, but no, the cost of implementing things the way that they do them is why we didn't do it that way. It's not because we like didn't think of it. It's super cool to like see it all done right.

I'd say the one thing that we are legitimately considering It's super cool to see it all done right. I'd say the one thing that we are legitimately considering, because we've had multiple power outages here at the office in the last couple of weeks because of storms in the southwestern BC area, is diesel generator backups. We're getting pretty darn tired of our power going out. But like we can't afford to have, you know, an on-site, you know, fuel purifier. And like, so it's going to be someone's job to micromanage, like making sure we have non-stale diesel fuel on site all the time. And I'm just looking at it going, we can barely keep our snackies drawers stocked. Because and that's not because, you know, people like, you know, do a bad job or something. It's just cause like we've got a lot going on and it's easy for,

it's easy for just in case we need it stuff to fall by the wayside when something else is happening, right? So I understand. Especially if you can't even keep snackies in stock, which are extremely visible. Oh, yeah You know, okay, you know, you know why the snackies aren't in stock right now. Yeah, Canada post strike Costco relies on them for delivery. So we don't have

Snackies right now like I think our I think our shipment is like one of those limbo shipments where it started before the strike ended and then It's before the strike started and then didn't get completed or something. I don't know exactly why I'm piecing this together. Someone told me that it's to do with the Canada Post strike and I read an article about how some things are stuck in limbo.

So I made some assumptions, I connected some dots, but basically it's something to do with the Canada Post strike. We'll call them moldies now. Instead of snackies. Because I've just been in a warehouse for the last month and a half. Thanks, Dan.

Let's see. Last one I've got here for you. Hello, gents. I think my last message went astray. Yes, it did. I'm sorry about that. I own a ZX Spectrum UK competitor to the Commodore 64. Do you think keyboard computers could ever make a comeback?

Love, Max. No, the keyboard has become such a personal choice. Like even, and I'm not even talking about the people for whom their keyboard is, is their, their purest expression of their self, you know? I'm talking about just low profile, high profile, numpad, no numpad, positioning of various keys. Keyboards have become such a personal choice

that I feel like integrating them into a device would be a fundamental error of the greatest magnitude. Like even mobile devices, right? Like they come with a keyboard, but you can absolutely switch it out for a different keyboard, a different layout, different functionality if you want. I just, I don't see us making a return to this. And sure, yes, okay, you could make it modular, kind of like what Framework did on the Framework 16. But again, I look at what an outlier the Framework 16 is as a laptop with, you know, a slim modular keyboard.

More modularity is absolutely, absolutely not the direction that the industry is going, and I wouldn't expect that trend to reverse anytime soon. Yeah. Randall, we have no plans for a, for a formal tool bag at this time. Nothing's impossible, but there's nothing happening at this time. And I think that's it for the WAN Show. It feels bizarre, doesn't it, to be done WAN Show? And then go for lunch?

I gotta just... What do I do? I feel like my day's over and it's time to go home like this is like like like salivation condition response right now Yeah, I'm gonna sleep. I'm ready to go to bed. Yeah, it's like I was talking to Sammy about this I've had maybe three or four like single hand Friday nights off in ten years not even exaggerating so I'm like why just go and like not even exaggerating. So I'm like, will you just go and like, stare at the ceiling all evening?

Because I took my meds too early this morning and I'm wired. I told my kids, I told my kids that I'm coming home at a reasonable time and they were like, why? I was like, well I'm... Why do you lie to us daddy? Yeah, I know. I was like, oh we're doing Wensho in the morning.

They're like, why? I'm like, because Luke has to catch a flight. And they're like, Daddy. Yeah, I know. I was like, oh, we're doing WAN Show in the morning. They're like, why? I'm like, because Luke has to catch a flight. And they're like, oh. I'm like, oh, OK. I guess you guys have plans on Friday nights. I don't blame you. I mean, I've been absentee dad on Friday nights for your entire lives.

But yeah, sure. I mean, cool. Have a UK snack, or just leave. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, our branding's all off now. We can't have WAN Show after dark when it isn't dark It's messed up, man. Everything's messed up. I didn't even push the button. Oh, yeah. Oh, okay Well, let's do a special. Let's do a special shout out for dbrand then who didn't get their their their banner interruptions

And actually I can I can show you guys I Saw it on the forum oh okay well that's the ridge collaborative product hold on let's wait let's refresh again and find another collaborative product hello oh our Costco snacks came through UPS as of yesterday oh did they okay so it's fixed now then I think they've always come through UPS oh well why'd someone tell me it was something to do with Canada Post then I I don't know, blaming you. I'm gonna go speak to that person.

Okay, do I have to load a new page? Like, what's going on here? Uh, okay. Hello? Refresh. I thought alt-F5 is supposed to do like a full refresh. Alt-function-F5? Am I just completely derping here, Dan?

On what? On... Alt F5. Alt F5 is the thing to refresh the page, right? I think that's like... Is that force refresh? No, I thought it was... Is it... It's just F5. Alt Shift F5? I don't know what the force... Oh, sorry. Yeah, I thought it was alt. Is it shift f? It's shift f5. Good lord. For the force. Yeah, okay. I haven't had a reason... Oh crap. I haven't had a reason to force refresh a page in years and years and years. Sorry, guys. Doesn't happen very often.

Yeah, I... I don't even know if it works. There's no, like, indicator that it's actually a force refresh. I don't think it's force refreshing because it's loading... It's loading the exact same... thing. Even if I... Whether I shift... You guys are sure it's loading it's loading the exact same thing even if I whether I shift you guys are sure it's not all control is it control I think sometimes there's like a shortcut that you hit the refresh icon while holding it on a shortcut I don't know if that works okay yeah it seems to be just

not okay LTD backpack available now I'm just gonna keep clicking stuff and type whatever the point is we finally launched black friday sale ends in 10 hours shop now I don't oh my god I don't care okay yes circuit board so cool this apparently I don't care. Okay, yeah, Circuit Board. So cool. This apparently is gyro controlled on Android, which I thought was pretty neat. If you go to the Circuit Board landing page, there's three different versions. We've got

Dark Circuit, Short Circuit, and Glow Circuit, and it's going pretty good. People are pretty into the design, so guys, you can check that out. Our skin partner, dbrand, there you go. All right, I think that's pretty much it. We'll see you guys again next week. Same bad time, same bad channel.

Oh, oh crap. What you should do is we should pull up a video. No, no, we got this. You got me a column? Yeah, we got this. I was freaking out. I don't know what's gonna happen This is this hilarious for the first little while before I synchronized my contacts on the iPhone Luke was still in my address book as slick and so I didn't realize that I went to call him with with voice in my

Car, and I was like call Luke LaFreniere, and it's like Sorry who I'm like call slick and it's like sorry who I'm like call slick and it goes through I kind of want to put him back in my address book is that hey bye I I have made a terrible mistake. I said same bad time. It'll be like the normal time, not this time. Okay.