The WAN Show - I'm A Short King - WAN Show January 20, 2023

Episode Date: January 23, 2023

Check out Thorum using the link below and get 20% off by using the code WAN at checkout: https://www.thorum.com Try Audible Plus Free for 30 Days: https://lmg.gg/lT2Oy Save 15% with our offer code WANSHOW at https://vessi.com/WANSHOW Timestamps: (Courtesy of NoKi1119) 0:00 Chapters 0:57 WAN show full-time employee, WHEEL OF PAAAIN 2:04 Intro 2:39 Topic #1: Smosh's "Short Kings Rank Short Kings" video 3:05 Watching the video, ranked next to Markiplier & Tom Holland 4:37 Luke's short joke, Linus on half inches & finding the board 6:22 Discussing ranked people, Tom Cruise's tenacity 7:33 Topic #2: Microsoft & Google lay off thousands again 7:56 Reasons provided by Microsoft, focus on AI 9:04 Exactly a year after Microsoft's major plans, Luke on OpenAI 10:24 Quote from Google's CEO, Linus on sustainable hiring 12:57 Linus looks at Google's stock, incompetent management 14:16 Linus hints at an official investment 14:33 Google offers 60 days of pay & 16 weeks of severance 15:36 Linus on GPT replacing Google until it fails to make revenue? 18:04 Linus on jewelry shopping, comparing to Microsoft 21:03 Twitter thread on paying for GPT 4, Luke mentions company costs 23:24 Linus compares GPT 4 to real-estate 23:53 Linus on Merch Messages with GPT 4, Luke on IRC & selling tools 27:31 Update on shadow-banning, discussing NDA & embargoes 32:44 Linus's on algorithm = audience, 7900XT/X embargoes 36:35 Shutting down "AliExpress" screwdriver & backpack argument 39:36 Being unable to defend yourself, Luke on RTX 6000 comments 43:33 Luke's video idea, James's "How to Make Good Linus Videos" 45:41 Laws of Linus #1: Never insult the audience 50:11 Topic #3: Two major lawsuits on AI art generators 50:53 Stable Diffusion's habit of replicating "Getty Images" watermark 52:06 AI replicating images, "remixing" copyrighted artwork 53:05 Luke on using replicated AI images for mobile games 55:04 Does it matter what the law is if the benefits outweigh negatives? 56:18 Reaction channels, fair use & YouTube revenue 1:06:18 Linus's "ethical reaction guidance," Luke on unfair usage 1:09:02 Linus on unfair usage of LTT content & mutual agreement 1:12:27 Floatplane Poll: "Reaction content" on submissions 1:15:50 Linus on LMG's transformative reaction content 1:17:44 LMG Clips's revenue & viewership V.S. timestamps 1:19:43 Alex P still gets clickbaited into WAN clips 1:20:55 Luke on "names of things matter," TARKOV short video 1:21:54 Sponsor - Thorum 1:23:42 Sponsor - Audible 1:25:37 Sponsor - Vessi Footwear 1:26:33 WHEEL OF PAAAIN explained 1:28:30 WoP #1: Twitter apps broke, rules on 3rd party apps 1:30:26 Consulting firm not paid after forcing Elon to buy Twitter 1:30:53 Luke tells Linus to "sit the F down," argument starts 1:37:01 Dan the Adjudicator, Luke to "shadow-ban" Linus 1:41:12 WoP #2: Samsung to use old patent to ban TP screen imports 1:42:44 AFBF signs Right to Repair with JD, argument starts 1:54:26 Dan the Adjudicator's, "defend the indefensible" 1:58:59 Luke recalls Namco Ltd's patent, TESRenewal's Skyblivion 2:06:15 LTTStore's new underwear designs 2:07:32 Merch Messages #1 2:22:36 Topic #4: LTX 2023 update 2:23:59 Topic #5: Linus on his investment in a NAS product 2:27:55 Topic #6: Apple's new HomePod & Mini 2:37:35 Topic #7: Wyoming's bill to phase out EVs by 2035 2:42:54 Topic #8: Stadia's self-service to enable BT 2:43:36 Merch Messages #2 3:35:40 Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You know what's great about ambition? You can't see it. Some things look ambitious, but looks can be deceiving. For example, a runner could be training for a marathon, or they could be late for the bus. You never know. Ambition is on the inside. So that goal to beat your personal best? Keep chasing it. Drive your ambition mitsubishi motors what is up ladies and gentlepersons it's time for the wanshow again that's right i am a short king yeah i still don't get it as crowned by smosh what i know i actually am hearing about this for the first time now as well here in the wans show document but I figured hey it's a good title for the video so let's lean into it and hopefully a short king is not something

really insulting I don't think it is in other news this week uh Microsoft and Google have laid off thousands of workers again uh which is kind of terrifying. It's like 5% of Microsoft's workforce or something. Big deal. Big deal. AI art generators face first two major copyright lawsuits. And from a party that you might not be too surprised to be involved. Also, U.S. farmers win right to repair farm equipment while Samsung undermines independent screen repair at the same time. Oh, and there's one more thing before I roll the intro.

We have actually got a not just producer like Dan the producer for the WAN show, but we've got someone whose entire full time job is to make the WAN show better. And this may be. Yeah, I know. Right. I was going to say this may be the first you're hearing of it. Yeah. But she just started. And so she's still on her probation.

So I guess I should not have disclosed anything about this individual. Because you never know how things will go. But at any rate, it means we are going to have things like fun new segments. Meet the Wheel of Pain. Okay, so, yeah, I can't't read it don't worry too much about it for now we will deal with the wheel of pain later for now so at this point in time i literally know less about that than any of you do because i couldn't read that i have no idea what it is i've been told i'm not allowed to read a certain part of the doc all i know is there's a wheel

and it's of pain. It's of pain. Yeah. No, no. Okay, try again. The wheel of pain. No, no, no, no. The wheel of pain. Much better.

Got it. All right. uh oh wow that was weird uh the show is brought to you today by vessi audible and one that kind of glitched out a little bit there before them. Forum. Oh, yeah, that's going to be an interesting one to talk about and show you. Why don't we jump right into our first topic of the week? I know this is not exactly a tech topic, but it piqued my curiosity. Smosh, the once popular... Oh, that's editorializing a little bit. Oh, that's not what it said.

Once the most popular channel on YouTube... Okay, yeah. ...made a video called... video called they're doing really well short kings rank short kings on their sister channel smosh pit uh spencer one of the rankers called linus the gold standard for tech youtubers oh okay so here hold on a second so i'm uh i'm gonna bring this up am i able to screen share with the stream? Is that a thing that it works now? Okay, let's go. Here we go.

I think it's clean. This is Spencer Agnew, right? I think, I believe. Okay, here we go. I was in a kick there for a long time where I was watching a bunch of Smosh content. Here we go. Hey, Linus Tech Tips.

Yeah. Yay, here we go. Five, six. Yes, that is true. Is it? Yes, yes, that is true. Come it? Yes. Yes, that is true. Come on. I'm not going to lie about it. Do you get S-tiered?

Does he give you an S-tier? I think he's great. He's funny. He's niche. No, that's true. No, you're niche. They'd be like, what the? Let's put him in. Let's throw him a B.

I don't know if B makes you a king. Well, hold on a second. Hold on a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. Was that Tom Holland next to me on B shelf, though? Oh, wow. Okay.

Because I don't even feel bad at that point. Hold on. Hold on. Who else are we looking at here? Hold on. Whoa. That's Markiplier. Whoa.

That's Tom Holland. All right. All right. Okay. You're doing pretty good. All right. So that's a strong B. That's a strong B. That's Markiplier. Whoa. That's Tom Holland. All right. All right. Okay. You're doing pretty good. All right. So that's a strong B. That's a strong B.

That's a strong B. What the hell makes you an A on this list? It's got to be pretty intense, I think. What's an A? Who's an A-tier king? Hold on a second here. Okay. Let's just wait until they zoom in on the thing.

Jump to the end. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to see the board. Show in on the thing. Or jump to the end. Yeah, yeah. I just want to see that board. Show me the board. I want to see the board. Where's the board at? Oh, my God.

It is hard to find because it's quite short. You piece of shit. You know, you're not allowed to make those jokes. You know that's how that works, right? Got him. Oh, see, that's real insecure. Spencer here with the half inch. Okay, for my metric friends out there,

a half inch is not a lot. It's not worth it. It's not worth it. It makes you seem insecure. If you have to put the half inch in, I wouldn't recommend it. Okay. Can they show the board?

I want to zoom into the board. Oh my God. There's a tier above A, though. There's S tier. They don't zoom into the board. I can zoom myself. Danny De devito wait fucking little that's a fictional character okay i don't recognize any of these other people it's a little blurry okay who's my a tier some soccer player mega man's in there okay what is this Jesus with a

trimmed beard okay I don't know I don't know who any of these people are you know what I am I'm pretty happy I got Elmer Fudd up in here looks strong yeah legitimately looks strong B tier seems like honestly I feel like the a and the S tier they were mostly just memeing except Danny DeVito who is amazing yes and and B tier is like, honestly, I feel like the A and the S tier, they were mostly just memeing, except Danny DeVito, who is amazing.

Yes. And B tier is like kind of where the solid short kings go. Apparently Jack Black was an S tier. Oh, Jack Black was an S tier. I mean, all right. Messi is up there. Someone said lost to Messi, but they didn't say if it was A or S. But either way.

All right. Yeah, that's fine. I'm happy with it. Lord Farquaad. Apparently you beat tom cruise i beat tom cruise that's pretty good i mean that's pretty good sort of it really strong b it really depends on how you're ranking tom cruise that's true if you rank tom cruise as a successful movie producer um then he probably belongs in s tier if you rank tom cruise as also

s tier as a runner yeah yeah i mean i've seen him run on a broken ankle for real though like he like broke his ankle doing a stunt and then just kept running which is like he's actually extremely good at running like genuinely yeah but if you rank tom cruise as an individual with both hinges attached to the wall. Sometimes when you're extremely excessively good at something, other things kind of fall off a little bit. I mean, that's one way of talking about it. Either way, I'm happy with my B tier ranking and we can move on now.

Maybe we'll get on the spaceship. In worse news, Microsoft and Google have laid off thousands of workers. And this is not, no, this is not deja vu. You are not watching an old WAN show from a few weeks ago. This is like, this is like, again, this is still happening. The tech sector is shedding workers like there is absolutely no tomorrow. Microsoft announced it is cutting 10,000 jobs.

That's nearly 5% of its workers. The stated reasons include changes in consumer preferences and macroeconomic conditions. While Microsoft is cutting jobs in some areas, though, they are actually still hiring in others, notably in the AI department. I mean, we've talked about this a fair bit over the last couple of months, but GPT-3, the upcoming GPT-4, Microsoft's major investment in OpenAI seems to indicate that they are laser focused on what chatbots mean for their future business, whether it's Azure uh whether it's bing whether it's

windows i think we're going to see extremely deep integration a lot of the stuff that that microsoft has openly shown that they care about on the consumer side of things for the last very long time cortana bing other things like that would be aided very heavily by the popular thing in AI right now, which is large language models. So improved versions of that would be extremely valuable to Microsoft. So it makes sense. Interestingly, Microsoft announced the layoffs on January 18th, one year to the day after they announced their plans to acquire Activision Blizzard for $69 billion dollars and one week after reports indicated the company plans to invest 10 billion in open ai so they have money interesting they have just chosen not to spend it on retaining workers so i i don't have notes for this so i'm going to say things that are wrong

i'm just prefacing it nice like that we liked you better last week i just couldn't talk at least you didn't say anything inaccurate um as far as i know once uh open ai makes enough money that they can pay back whatever like microsoft's investment you mean yeah the like shares are gone and everything kind of reverts back to uh being owned and operated under open AI. So I wonder if this $10 billion investment is to try to stave that off. Oh, I actually, I have no way of knowing the terms. I have no clue.

I don't remember what the terms were, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I feel like this might be kind of like a defensive maneuver because they see them potentially doing too well too fast. So they need to up their investment potentially. I don't know. Maybe. I know nothing. Moving on.

Meanwhile, Google is cutting 12,000 employees or around 6% of its workforce. Google's CEO stated that following two years of dramatic growth, Google hired for a different economic reality than the one they are currently facing over the course of the pandemic google's workforce increased by 78 000 jobs i mean um that's so much i don't know man see this is the thing that's so frustrating to me is when management gets it right management benefits and when management gets it wrong at most companies the employees get hit yeah so i mean we've talked a lot about sustainable hiring um i i i think i've talked about this on one show before but basically the the way that yvonne and i forecast uh when we sit down and we set a budget for hiring is we look at the previous year and basically go okay

assuming no growth whatsoever next year based on that year so we we basically build in that we could revert back to last year's performance and not grow at all. Can we afford whatever it is that we're hiring for this year? Was that clear? So our hiring budget for this year is affected by how we performed last year and assuming that the following year will be like that. that the following year will be like that. What has actually happened is for eight out of our 10 years, we have experienced significant growth.

For two out of our 10 years, we've had what we've kind of called reinvestment years. And that's a big part of the reason that we take that approach is because it gives us the flexibility to have a reinvestment year where we can make long-term investments that might not pay off for two years or three years. I'm expecting this year that we're in right now

to be what we would call a reinvestment year. I'm not expecting, well, actually, we're forecasting less profit this year than last year. For any Linus Media Group, Floatplane, this year than last year um uh for any uh linus media group floatplane or creator warehouse um employees who are watching that's okay yeah yeah it will pay off in 2024 it'll be fine everything's good and uh and if it didn't we'd still be able to afford it because it's all kind of based on how last year went uh anywho uh it i don't know it's it's frustrating to me because this feels like such a management failure and yet i pretty much promise that google's stock went up this week like here i don't actually know i don't

actually know response stock does go up in these situations uh do i have google on my thing oh no oh wait yes google stock is up like five percent today genius um investors like it when a bunch of people get fired yeah which i i don't know here's a here's an alternate way of looking at it should investors like it when management is so incompetent that they accidentally hire 12 000 too many people that they then can't afford to pay and presumably whose projects whatever it is that they're working on are now stalled like i i just i don't understand this way of thinking and it and it's frustrating. Yeah, Ben Mitchell in Floatplane Chat says,

Google stock went up 5% when they fired 5% of their employees. Maybe if they want the stock to go up 100%— Just fire everybody, including Cook. Okay, I'm going to buy some Google real quick here. On that subject, I actually have some more details to share on my next investment that is now final. The wire has gone through. They have effectively deposited the funds. They've cashed the check.

I'll tell you guys a little bit more about it. But first, let's talk through the rest of this Google stuff. So affected employees from Google will receive 60 days of pay, followed by at least 16 weeks of severance. I mean, you got to at least give them credit there. That is a pretty decent severance package. Like if I had... 16 weeks of severance is like...

Yeah, if I had six months to kind of figure out what I'm going to do next. Affected employees will receive 60 days pay followed by at least 16 weeks severance what's the difference here i'm not sure i'm sure there's some distinction like legally um but like microsoft google's ai department is unaffected and the speculation here is likely because of the threat that chat gpt poses to google's dominance honestly asking chat gpt things is so much better than googling them you do have to i know you know this i know it's an old data set old data it's an old data set and you have to remember that it will confidently be wrong um so you have to keep your mind about you but it it is oh yeah google search results can be

confidently wrong too absolutely that's the thing yeah here's the challenge though i read a really interesting article a while back i really i wish i had it in front of me so i could give you guys a more accurate summary of it but essentially it made the argument that voice assistants as we know them are doomed they're going away. The model was supposed to be that by collecting all of this information, building these natural language models and making these voice assistants ubiquitous in our lives,

either in the phones in our pockets or in the smart speakers in our kitchens or wherever else they happen to be found in our TVs, they would somehow start to sell us things and therefore generate a value to advertisers, generating a value to the companies who have built them. As far as anyone can tell, Cortana's gone. Alexa seems to be losing copious amounts of money.

The whole experiment has fundamentally failed. And what I wonder is is was the problem that they weren't good enough yes that was part of it at least part of it they are fairly crap or was the problem that people will simply not interact with someone who is constantly trying to sell them something. So what I'm trying to say is, is ChatGPT going to only be a viable alternative to Google searching until it starts trying to sell us crap? Unless it's a paid service. If it can't successfully sell us crap then will it ultimately just

not find a way of being commercialized because like if you think about it i don't mind looking up information by myself and being bombarded with ads it's just kind of part of the process whether i am seeking out information in a newspaper or tv or or on a web page but and maybe i'm maybe i'm outing myself as a bit of an introvert here if i have to communicate with someone and be sold something i like i i would rather just buy nothing and walk away. There's certain types of purchase experiences that I dread them. I was thinking, hey, I have not adorned my wife

with any precious metals or jewels in a solid seven to eight years. Maybe we're due. I should probably take her jewelry shopping and i just man you ever gone like jewelry shopping the mall they're like they're they're they're like hyenas i hate it they're they're so aggressive yeah you tell them no i i'm just browsing for now like i will even my body language is completely closed i i will preemptively before they even get a chance to inhale to open their mouths and start talking to me i'll say i'm just browsing for now thank you and they hover they hover they're practically breathing down your neck and And it drives me crazy because maybe I'm about to prove myself wrong, right?

It drives me crazy because they wouldn't do it if it didn't work on somebody. Oh, yeah. But the more natural you make the interaction for me with this chatbot or with this voice assistant or whatever it is, chatbot or with this voice assistant or whatever it is i feel like the more personally offended or bothered or attacked or whatever the word is the more personally anxious i'm gonna be when they try to sell me something ultimately does that does that make sense or am i way off base here no that makes sense i just i think and uh i'm i'm probably going to be wrong and they're probably going to go with a different model and that will be super bad um but i'm really hoping they go for a prosumer type of approach and charge for it

not if it's microsoft i mean, Microsoft doesn't even charge for windows anymore, essentially. Yeah. Like what even, what even is Microsoft's business? It's pretty clear there. They're chasing that. I mean,

why else would they have kept beating this dead being a horse? Yeah. It's gotta be an advertising model. I mean, obviously they're, they're certainly open to, to software as a service. I mean, we, they're certainly open to software as a service. I mean, we see that with Game Pass.

But, like, again, back to what the best way to monetize something that interacts with you. If there was, like, a YouTube Premium chat GPT or a YouTube Premium Bing powered by chat GPT, whatever I would pay for that. Like Bing premium. Yeah. It won't be though, because they would, they, you don't want your brand to be sullied by the crappy version. I mean, Microsoft learned this back in the day with windows 2000 and windows ME. I mean, what they look at the, why are we maintaining a good kernel kernel why don't we just have one good kernel one yeah there was a thread on twitter where people were talking about like what they would pay for chat gpt powered by gpt 4.0 whatever sure um and that you and i both know that that type of interaction is always useless trash because all the people talking are like i'll pay whatever and then it comes time to

do it and they don't pulling your actual credit card out of your actual wallet is much higher friction than talking about how you're gonna like spend money on the internet yeah um yeah it like never means anything. It's completely useless conversation. But I was a little bit surprised knowing all of that. How many people were enthusiastically wanting to line up to pay for it? And I think if they made it a, I don't even know if it's prosumer, potentially just straight up professional application.

I think they could make a lot of money from businesses. Because businesses, I think, would like powerful 4.0 powered chat GPT reinforced employees. And you look at how much these platforms are charging companies for such basic crap yeah but it's worth it for the company so they just pay it anyways yeah like the bill for teams yeah enormous yeah but it's like well what are we gonna not have like guests will pay for it like inter in intra company communication are we just gonna not have... Guests will pay for it. Intra-company communication. Are we just going to not have that, I guess? It's text chat. When text chat was free

like 20 years ago. I know. But we pay out the nose. It's really expensive. Yes, I know how much it is. It just drives me nuts. Thank you. It's crazy to me. Don't't forget we also pay for g suite

and then it's and adobe suite and slack and everything else um yeah it's it's and they're they're they're really expensive so if you offered something that was actually powerful and wasn't literally a text chat that barely works yeah i think people would pay a lot for it as a company maybe not so much as a person i don't know yeah i mean how there's because it's all it's kind of like how we talked about the issue with real estate where when people are buying it to live in it the calculus is very different compared to when people are buying it to live in it, the calculus is very different compared to when people are buying it and pricing it based on how much money they can make from it.

From my point of view, when I look at the cost of something, I'm looking at it in terms of how much time, which equals money, it saves. So I was talking to Dan, actually, before the show, and I was saying, hey, Dan,

uh, merch messages. Like, wouldn't it be cool if when merch messages come in. Okay. So when people ask a question or something like that down here, uh, when you guys see a response that is almost always from Dan,

occasionally I reply to them. Do you ever reply to them? To what? Sorry. Merch messages. Like the text replies. Okay. So occasionally I'll reply to them.

I didn't know you did. Um, yeah, here's a reply. There's a reply right there. No. Like the text replies. Okay, so occasionally I'll reply to them. I didn't know you did. Yeah, here's a reply. There's a reply right there. Usually that's handled by Dan, and he replies to people just from hearing us talk on the WAN show because he's always here, or just from things he knows internally.

He'll try to answer your questions as best he can. And I was telling Dan, I was like, hey, A, it would save you a ton of time, and B, I think it would help you filter which ones have been addressed before versus which ones we've talked about, or which ones we haven't talked about. If you could just take the transcript of every WAN show,

dump it into a chat GPT prompt, and then say, based on this library of of information what's the answer to this you do a quick sanity check and then you just paste it in it's like oh you can do that i know well i know you can yeah but how much will it cost right yeah right now we don't know right now nothing but it's it's in a testing phase yeah they've been very open about the fact that it's just in a testing phase yeah but but and what will the tools look like for that integration like will there be will there be api access so that the merch messages dashboard will properly integrate with that so people's questions could come in

automagically run through this process and then our dashboard could be updated so that dan only has to see their original message and the suggested output oh so there's two things one of them a bunch of people in chat were like why don't you guys just run irc it's not the point it's not the point it's not the point it's not the point. It's not the point. It's not the point. It's not the point. I'm not even going to explain the point. It's just not the point. And two, something that I think is going to be a really interesting reckoning is whenever ChatGPT's model changes and these tools that people are building that are based on it now have to react to the model change that's going to be interesting

i know people that have sold tools built on chat gpt for 10k plus really to companies that are trying to buy these tools that are chat gpt powered and they don't seem to understand that it's just in a testing phase and it's going to change a lot it's going to happen eventually they're going to commercialize it some way eventually like soon yeah it seems to me there are people making customer support bots for commercial pages right now based on chat gpt huh which like yeah right now honestly it probably works pretty good yeah but when it costs you 10 cents a message or whatever that well you just have no idea yeah we have no clue no clue they might just yoink it right yeah they might just say hey testing phase is over yeah that's too many calls yeah or that yeah forget it

like i don't know i would i wouldn't want to do that right now. That's all I'm saying. But there's some pretty big core feature infrastructure that is being put on ChatGPT, which is interesting. Okay. Speaking of people missing the point sometimes, I have an update on that thing that I said and then reversed course on, and now I'm just like, I don't know what to do.

Okay, you know how I said I was just going to start shadow banning people who were just, like, made my brain hurt? And then the next week I was like, you know what? I shadow banned, like, five people, and week I was like, you know what? I shadow banned like five people. And then I was like, no, this is,

this is not, this isn't helping anything anyway. It's going to do nothing for improving the quality of discourse because it's an endless sea of, of bad takes or, or whatever else. And, and I don't want to create an environment where people feel like by,

by expressing their thoughts, they could, you know, end up shadow banned, which is like sucky right like that's never really been our approach to community feedback never been the goal yeah well you can you can find a nugget of gold in a mountain of poo and that's that's always kind of been my philosophy about it so i guess i better keep all the poo so that there's a chance i'll find some gold then the next day i read this so this is on our 4070 ti review linus dyson made everyone post a review at the same time

we don't work with them anymore and we don't condone this behavior also linus when a new computer part launches yes corporate daddy will post at the same time as everyone why don't i just shadow ban that person why not a that first thing never happened we worked with dyson after that the part that was bad we just thought it was kind of stupid yeah the part that was bad was that without telling everybody that everyone else would be posting these vacuum cleaner videos at exactly the same time, they had like an embargo lift on sponsored vacuum cleaner videos and it was a fiasco.

It was a bloodbath. But I never said we wouldn't work with them anymore and I never said we don't condone a coordinated product launch. Also, Linus, when a new computer part launches, no, it's not, yes, corporate daddy will post it at the same time as everyone.

It's, yes, viewer, we understand that once the news cycle is over, you're not going to watch it. A perfect example of this is we pushed back on separate nda lifts for unboxings yeah um hard when that started to materialize i think one of the first to do it in the it space was nvidia and i'm so surprised i already knew that but like yeah it shouldn't be surprising to anybody yeah you were you were there you were literally there when there was like this separate unboxing embargo that, who was it? Paul, I think, technically didn't break because the card was just there and open and not in a box or whatever.

Was that how it went down? I remember something about that. It was either Paul or Kyle. It was one of them. I don't know. is that we push back hard on these separate NDAs and separate embargo dates for unboxings compared to full reviews. Now, I still don't mind that as much as long as the embargo lift for the full review is at the same time as sales availability. That's fine because that means before you're taking people's money they will

have an opportunity to see the product properly evaluated but i do um think that a separate nda lift for unboxings and so i mean we're up to like three ndas for a product launch at this point there's the announcement embargo there's the unboxing embargo and then there's the review embargo and then sometimes they the review embargo and then sometimes they'll try and sneak another one in there like like a preview embargo where you can run specific titles or whatever else and it's gotten kind of ridiculous but you guys have to understand why they're doing it it's because they are leveraging the the short attention span or really the shortness of the news cycle to great effect and this this is one of those things that i just i i don't know what you guys

want me to do because i don't like it but you guys are ultimately the ones who create this game that i'm playing i see a lot of people blame the algorithm okay for uh clickable titles and thumbnails right or for the algorithm just reacts to people or the proliferation of of garbage content on youtube we the people are the reason why microtransactions are so incredibly uh smart to put in your game all the algorithm is and this was this was such a great conversation well multiple conversations because i was very resistant to it at first but um one of one of my favorite contacts at youtube um head of search and discovery basically has drilled into me and and he's right every time you open your mouth to say something, something, algorithm, something, something, something,

try replacing algorithm with the word audience, and you will find a much more accurate understanding of what exactly is going on. So this is what ultimately bothered me. this is what ultimately bothered me um for the launch of the 7900 xt and 7900 xtx amd played the game they had two separate embargoes one for unboxing or well three right announcement unboxing and then the full review the unboxing video which i'm not gonna i'm not gonna pretend that it's anything other than what it is uh it's it's low effort content right i've got this box i open it there's some specs right um that i give some thoughts on it but if i have measured the performance of it i'm not allowed to tell you right we can extrapolate

i feel like we added a little bit of value to some of our our pre-review coverage of the 7900 series by you know taking what amd had provided recreating that bench as closely as we could and then um and then extrapolating you know how we would expect it to perform against the competition when amd wasn't disclosing that like we did everything we could with it but at the end of the day that's pretty shallow content that video ended up with 1.9 million views took a grand total of about an hour of prep time for someone to just kind of put together a spec list and uh you know grab some cards some relevant comparison cards off the shelf for me then about another 40 minutes of me sitting down in front of a camera that's it that is the the grand total time we spent on it okay then our full review and you know we got to remember too that

both of these are are with us throwing the the full power of our you know our wonderful thumbnail artist maria and all the expertise we have internally in terms of of titling videos and uh you know trying to create catchy intros and all that kind of stuff uh our full review ended up with a whopping 1.9 million views. Now, that doesn't sound like a problem, right? Yeah, okay. So the unboxing and the review ended up with similar view counts, except for a couple of things.

Number one is that that review is, in my humble opinion, the second best GPU review we've ever done uh followed only by the 4070 ti and that's only because it came a little bit later once we'd had once we got our workflow settled in a little bit better um and number two it's on a way bigger channel like way bigger and i'm just i don't know man i'm i i feel like i'm rambling a little bit now at this point i'm just i'm kind of bothered by how many people look at that short circuit video which we never call a review we never we never put a review in the description i never say review in the video the number of people that think it's a review and just the appetite for deeper, more analytical content is just not there compared to just this surface-level content.

So how did I arrive here? I don't remember anymore. I're talking about the comment and how you wanted to remove it because it's annoying uh yeah okay it's just bad faith arguments like that it's really frustrating yeah there you go um well i mean i think it's like you're you're screwed if you do and you're screwed if you don't yeah because i mean there's no you know unless i were to unless i were to publish some kind of you know official like you know policy like like a like a code of conduct by which i decide to you know if someone is shadow banned or not like i i read a particularly frustrating thread on the

forum uh either today or yesterday uh where there there were a number of people making again these just extraordinarily bad faith arguments in this case it was about the screwdriver in the backpack and uh one in particular wrote this wall of text about this long after someone challenged them because what they said before was i could go on aliexpress and get that screwdriver in that backpack for a fraction of the price the cost on that screwdriver is like this low and someone was like okay then do it show me and they wrote this wall of text i'm not gonna bother because it's not worth my time but here's all the like knowledge i have about how that so i replied i was just like i will give you 10 grand i will give you ten thousand dollars if you can do that it's worth

your time now it's worth your time now it's just on aliexpress where's your excuse yeah and it's I don't know how to, I don't know how to have a conversation when the person on the other side of the table is, is not capable of existing in the same plane of reality that I'm in. You know, they say I can get that screwdriver for $10 and I say, you cannot. Would you like to reevaluate your position? No, thank you.

And I don't know how to deal with that. You know? Yeah. It's like, what do you want from me? Do you need my invoices from Megapro, from PH Molds, from ITD Tool and die from do you do you like we're we're pretty transparent actually someone's asking if they can enter the contest you can't do it go for it you

can't the whole point there is no there is no aliex vendor. Those handles are injection molded in Pit Meadows, or excuse me, Maple Ridge, British Columbia. Like, you can't. It just doesn't work that way. It's not a thing. You're missing the point, my dude.

And it's like, it's one of those things where, you know, if you were willing to open your eyes and open your mind, you would know. I mean mean we have footage of me in the injection molding facility hand building screwdrivers here you know i just i i can't um and yeah go ahead no i going. I was trying to derail us, so if you have more to say. No, I mean, no, it's great.

I mean, honestly, like, obviously you guys are the Wancho audience. You guys get it, and you've got my best interests at heart, I think, and you're sitting here going, Linus, don't engage. And you're right, but the thing that you haven't experienced, and, you know, one of the reasons that, honestly, you know, Luke or the other people internally here or my fellow YouTubers are some of the only people that I feel like I can really talk to about these things, is that you've never experienced these thousands or hundreds or even dozens of attacks that come. And you're not allowed to defend generally. And you guys are basically saying, don't defend yourself. But the thing is, is that it doesn't go away.

And in some cases, what can happen is it can even grow. And so, you know, I'm kind of looking at it going you know okay a perfect example is when we had that um uh when we had that uh that uh that sexual assault accusation right and i basically took the very controversial internally um move of kind of going okay here is my entire relationship history start to finish the only part that was controversial with me was the details i didn't i didn't need to know it tastes like smoke i will never forget that i just thought it was kind of funny for that one it was it was the most memorable thing about it sorry keep going so i took the controversial

move of basically going okay fine then you know full transparency here's everything so anything that doesn't match that i will not be acknowledging because that didn't happen um so now i don't have to talk about it anymore uh but like there's there's this there's kind of this contingent that refuses to acknowledge any sort of you know fact or reality and is always just kind of i mean haters gonna hate i guess is the bottom line and it wears on you yeah like it really does and you want to do something about it and like this happened this happened on my on my tour of of ovh but there was the um let me see yeah the rtx 6000 and like uh whose fault is it that there's a card called the rtx 6000 it's well it's nvidia's fault

but i had to say it in the video and i knew when i said it that people are gonna go huh and there's all and this is so light and who cares but there's all these comments everywhere on floatplane on on youtube on everything what an idiot that card doesn't exist what a dummy and the whole time everything and this is so light compared to what he's talking about but every single time i read that i'm just like man like you there's a bunch of parts of the video that are not that great like you can call me out on that but why are you calling me out on this and then i want to respond to every single one of them. And then it's just like, okay, no, I need to not do this.

Yeah. Because it's just not reasonable. And it bothers you, right? Because, like, especially in cases where you know you were right, you just kind of go, well, now you're going to sit and think that forever yeah and given that our entire job is trying to inform people about technology i i just like i could sit at my keyboard all day correcting misconceptions literally all day and do absolutely nothing else it'll be a funny video i mean we've done linus response to haters i I mean, we've done Linus responds to haters, I guess.

Or no, we've done Linus responds to mean comments. You should do like the thumbnails, like you pointing at the screen. It just says you're wrong is the thumbnail. But here's the problem. So we, I guess about six months ago, we created, well, I shouldn't say we. James created, it doesn't matterames created it doesn't matter timeline doesn't matter sometime in the last little while james created a document called how to make good videos and in how to make good videos um he created a section based on a conversation that we had had

called the laws of linus and there's a bunch of really interesting stuff in here that I have, even though not all of it is actually from me, it was a team effort building it. And I probably wouldn't have called it that just because it's sort of a silly thing. But it's got, he put a flex arm. Well, it's a fun acronym, right? Yeah, I guess so. Sure.

Yeah. So the lols, the lols. Got him. Really did like you better when you couldn't talk it's a better show that way so it was a little disheartening how many people were like this was the best show I was like all right yeah speaking of haters okay I have to tell you though and this is the first time I'm telling him on air, but I told you after the show last week as well. It is actually far more helpful than you and you guys probably realize to have a friendly presence. Like essentially a living, breathing laugh track slash supporter just sitting next to you while you ramble on and on about things, kind of nodding or raising an eyebrow when you say something stupid. Like, I can imagine at the height of the pandemic, you know,

being an athlete, performing in an empty stadium. You know, I don't know. Did I play that shot good? There's no feedback. There's no feedback whatsoever. And it really does get you going. Anyway, back to the laws of Linus. One of the laws is never insult the audience.

It doesn't go well. Yeah, and I do it from time to time. I break the rules. You know, someone on, I honestly feel more liberated with the float plane audience because realistically, they pay for the subscription. You know, someone on, I honestly feel more liberated with the float plane audience because realistically, they pay for the subscription. They're probably hardcore.

They can probably handle it. And, you know, every once in a while, you know, there'll be a brain dead enough take that I'm just like, you know what? No, we're going to talk about this because that's pretty bad. But I shouldn't. I shouldn't because, hold on, I'm trying to find the bloody part of it. This is driving me absolutely crazy. Okay, fine. I'm trying to find the bloody part of it this is driving me absolutely crazy okay fine I will resort to find and replace uh is it insult or no it must be attack

guys I'm fine you don't have to yeah here it is do not personally attack the viewer no matter how wrong or stupid their beliefs are not even an implied attack and this has actually helped us a lot over the last little while because there have been a few videos where we you know we'd make an offhand joke say for example about like ddr2 memory you know being old and it's like well hold on a second in a lot of parts of the world ddr2 is like still expensive and still current and it's like well hold on a second in a lot of parts of the world ddr2 is like still expensive and still current and it's easy to live in our in our north american bubble and to and it's not even necessarily wrong to live in our north american bubble because that's where solid like almost 60 of our viewership comes from with probably another 30 from you know western western europe so like your germany's and and uk's and france's of the world places like that

um yeah but you've got to understand that when you are broadcasting to literally millions of people if only one percent of them are personally attacked by what you say, then you just upset 1,000, 10,000 people for what? Yeah. Why? To what end? Yeah. Like, why?

So one of the things that I'll do during script review with people now is I'll say, like, hey, why are we poking fun at people who liked windows vista that's just just an example why are we doing that and they're like because it's funny because they're dumb i'm like well a i like windows vista not so funny now is it but that's not even the point because B who cares? Is there a benefit? Yeah.

And honestly, this is something where Yvonne has been a really good influence on me because she has basically said, Hey, look, I think that you're too aggro. And I think that you're going to catch a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar.

And she's, she's right. I have basically never one i shouldn't say i i have never i i have rarely witnessed like an aggressive approach winning an argument on the internet think about it i so i i agree with the statement in general i think sometimes it is not okay so this is this is a tech channel we're talking about tech topics yeah so it should basically always be honey because who cares sure but i don't think this applies to all arguments one could have if that makes sense

we've talked about this before i don't remember how i phrased it but i think it was like sometimes you want to catch them with the vinegar or whatever like i there's certain times where like i'm not willing to acknowledge any potential benefits of the argument on the other side so i'm not going to approach it with that. But you don't have to acknowledge merit. You don't have to acknowledge any merit of their argument when there isn't any. But you could acknowledge maybe how they feel. No.

Okay. There are certain arguments where I think no. There is not like a ton of them necessarily. But there are certain arguments where I think no. There's not like a ton of them necessarily, but there are certain arguments where I think no. That's fair. I don't know. Intolerance will not be tolerated. Yeah. Yes.

I mean, that's fair enough. What we will also not tolerate is AI art generators blatantly ripping off the source material on which they were trained that's right i called this there is already a two major copyright lawsuits against ai art generators getty images claims that stability AI scraped the Getty Images site, using it as a database to train its own AI art generator.

These claims are corroborated by an independent study that found that stable diffusion was trained on hundreds of thousands of images sourced from stock image sites. Notably, stable diffusion has a funny habit of recreating the Getty Images watermark in the images that it produces. And this is figure two down below. This is hilarious. That's really funny.

Um, whoops. This is a super weird image. is this supposed to be like a baseball catcher it looks like baseball mixed with football it really does i do have to wonder what the prompt was uh also i kind of have to wonder what kind of roids this guy's got going on here though if you take steroids, that is your own life choice. Don't be upset.

Not insulting the audience. I like it. Yeah. I actually just don't care. Like, if that's what you want to do to your testicles, then, like... Mine are bigger. Okay, I break my rules sometimes. Might be short, but he's got them big ones.

A study from the University of Maryland found that stable diffusion can sometimes end up closely replicating images from its training database. These aren't pixel-perfect copies, but the derivation is pretty blatant. That is figure one over here where, um, yep. I don't think it takes a genius to, uh, to see that... There's a relationship here.

Yeah. I mean, you can't even move the wolves around a little bit. Where's the moon? Give me three wolves and a moon, you know? Give me something to work with here. Make it defensible. The second major lawsuit is a class action against Stability AI, DeviantArt, and MidJourney, claiming that their art generators are simply remixing the copyrighted works of millions of artists.

The lawsuit's website calls such AI generators 21st century collage tools. And it's an interesting thing because, like the Bloodborne one, for instance, if the lower image, which I believe is the AI-generated image, I think. I actually don't know. I actually don know um but i kind of doesn't matter because they're similar enough to each other that it's irrelevant and that's sort of the point so yeah say the ai generated image is used for uh let's say a mobile game right if if it was called um white blood cell birth and it was on the Apple store, they would probably be gone after because Bloodborne would say that's too close to our logo because you just clearly ripped off our logo, right? Yeah. So it's the same thing.

I've been caught in this argument a little bit because I went anti-AI art and I went pro-AI large language model. And people didn't like that I was kind of on each side of the fence. But this is kind of the example. And I don't know 100% really where it ends up being okay. Because it's still 100% true that the large language model is trained off of other people's stuff. It's not not true that that is a thing, but it's a lot less apparent. It's way less apparent. You don't have it do this.

You can get chat GPT to spit out things that other people have written. It's happened, but it's not as egregious. Doesn't seem as common. Stuff like that. but it's not as egregious, doesn't seem as common, stuff like that. It seems like it's done better, but it also seems like it was easier to do it better because it's a large language model and the way that works is easier. But when it comes to art, we're seeing a lot of this.

I had the example that I gave in the previous one and showing these three examples are just as blatant. I mean, here's the thing, though. Are people... Okay, I'm going to ask a spicy question. Does it matter what the law is if the overall social benefit outweighs the drawback to those few who are affected by it and to be clear i'm not

taking the position that you know the ends justify the means here i'm just asking if we all collectively kind of decide this is okay because it has to be okay because this is really convenient for our lives that we can you know create a children's book from scratch in a weekend uh without needing an illustrator because we never learned to draw um is this ultimately going to fizzle out and are these lawsuits going to just eventually go away i don't think that's the average stance though so i don't think it would well it's not the average stance now but most people have not used an ai image generator yet once people get used to the convenience of an ai image generator will they be willing to let it go yeah my pessimism would say no right Right? Like, I mean, okay.

Another perfect example of sometimes the gulf that exists between what is ethical and legally acceptable versus what is socially acceptable would be something like the way that some creators approach React content. And I know this is going to be a hot spicy potato there's gonna be a hot take oh i can't believe he's talking about this but it's like it's it's actually pretty cut and dried right like i i'm not gonna i'm not gonna there's no point not being transparent about it because the internet never forgets anything so i might as well just tell you guys we're working on a react channel like it's it it is effort easy content and it is like obscenely obscenely profitable if you can generate a bunch of views

on content that takes almost literally no time. That's what it is. That's what React content is. What's your approach to the... I'm very intrigued. What is the approach to the React content channel? Well, first I'm going to talk about what are the obvious problems

with some of the React content that's out there. The defense that is used by... And I'm not going to name anyone because I don't need any beef in my life. I just like, it's a waste of brain energy for me. But the argument that is often used to defend it is fair use. Fair use is a gray area for one thing. It actually has to be, it actually has to be defended in court. It is not as simple as, well, it's fair use, therefore it's fine.

The only reason that you might get away with saying it's fair use is if nobody chooses to challenge you on it. So in a way, you could look at that fair use argument for React content as basically just a way that large creators can turn their nose up at small creators who can't afford to defend their work by saying essentially because you can't afford to sue me it's fair use that's a pretty shitty stance. Yeah. And a lot of what gets defended as fair use is clearly not. You know, Google has a support doc for this

because they run a little site you might have heard of before called YouTube. And so they have a lot of kind of like legal Q&A on there. And the four factors of fair use are laid out, or pillars, if you want to call them that, are laid out pretty clearly. So there's the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is commercial

or is for non-profit educational purposes. If it's commercial, that's a big strike against you. And the second you hit monetization or pimp t-shirts or screwdrivers or whatever else, that's very commercial use, right? Courts typically focus on whether the use is transformative. That is, whether it adds new expression or meaning to the original or whether it merely copies from the original. And this is a spectrum, right? This is not just black and white.

It adds new expression or it doesn't. It's up to the interpretation and it's up to the arguments that get made. Number two is the nature of the copyrighted work, right? So using material from a factual work is more likely to be fair than from a fictional work uh number three the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole and this is where a lot of react content as it is right now is in deep doo-doo a lot of people in the chat are talking about the h3 ruling yes uh that did go in favor of ethan but you've also got to remember and understand that fair use is something that is tackled on a case-by-case basis by the courts and in the case of h3 productions versus that guy i can't remember his name um ethan to his credit did not use the entire original source.

And the bulk of the video was, for better or for worse, H3's commentary, right? As opposed to just the original work being consumed in a way that is not benefiting the original rights holder in any way number four and this is another huge one that is highly problematic with a lot of react content right now the effect on the potential market for or the value of the copyrighted work if you play the entire video as part of the video, the impact is enormous. Let's say, for example, someone did a React video to one of ours

where they pulled a few key things but largely transformed it, largely contributed their own thoughts and their own expression. That is pretty obviously fair use even though it is commercial so usually i wouldn't consider our um i wouldn't consider our content to be primarily uh purely fictional i'd say that we we strive to create uh factual works so it is more likely to be covered by fair use uh the character of the use while it is commercial it to be covered by fair use. The character of the use, while it is commercial,

it would be highly transformative. And the amount that is used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole could be quite low. There also is potentially a positive effect on the potential market for the copyrighted work. So in the case of something like, let's say a... No, no, let's stick with the example

that we're using just for the sake of, of ease of following along. So if you only provide snippets of the original video, but explicitly in your content, you say, but there's some key parts of it that you should go check out. I've got it linked down below. There's a much stronger argument for fair use. As it is right now, if you upload a video that is essentially the entire original work for profit for yourself with some chunks where you respond to or react to or talk over the original work, there is no reason whatsoever to go watch the original work. And so you'll see these large creators that are getting, in some cases, many times the

viewership of the original work at the cost of the original work. And I honestly don't have, I don't have the solution to this right now. Because like, it's pretty clear that YouTube's copyright claim system is pretty broken. pretty clear that youtube's copyright claim system is pretty broken like even if something was clearly not fair use you know a i don't necessarily think that i would be entitled to 100 of the revenue which to my knowledge is the only way you can copyright claim something you basically just say i think that's all mine or you can can say, I think I deserve nothing. There's no middle ground whatsoever. And two, the community backlash is just not worth it because there's this perception that,

I don't know. I actually just don't really understand why. Because sitting as someone who is, relatively speaking, on the top of the online creator pyramid, I can tell you right now that the community backlash that follows any smaller creator who's trying to enforce f***ing copyright is wrong.

It's wrong. It's just plain wrong. It benefits the people who are at the top who don't need it. They actually have money. They could hire staff, create something original, get equipment, whatever. Whereas

the people who are at the bottom actually need it. They can't build a screwdriver from scratch and sell 100,000 units. They don't have the same tools. they can't build a screwdriver from scratch and sell a hundred thousand units, right? Like they don't, they don't have the same tools. And so to,

to ignore, to ignore these arguments just because, you know, we don't like what people being mean to people. We formed a parasocial relationship with it's messed up, man. Okay. So all of that being said how's yours gonna work so what i've got in the uh i'm not signed into that account on here in one

good uh yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes so basically i oh shoot it's in the comments uh general reaction channel guidelines timeliness is hugely important blah blah blah no no where is it uh shoot okay that time someone reacted to one of our things yeah it was uh really really interesting so again as a as a content creator i have you know actual numbers for how beneficial reaction content is to the original creator the answer is much in case you guys are wondering and that's even as someone with a substantial following already and whose content might already have significant momentum um on on a channel from someone who's only ever upload or on a channel that's only ever uploaded one video or something like that where

they don't have that that critical mass um i do think there's multiple arguments here um sure and it depends on the nature of the inclusion yes if you include so this is okay i'm getting to it okay okay i'm getting to it uh unfortunately i just don't have the basically i lay i don't know i can't find it i laid out i've seen it work i've laid out some guidelines for what i would consider to be like like ethical reaction content where the goal the stated purpose and not just the stated purpose but the actual goal of the content needs to be to uplift the original creator as opposed to coming back to the pillars of fair use harm the value or potential market for the original work. And I think that's something that has just been completely lost.

I think there's I think there's been I think there is and there has been reaction content that is like clearly exploitative. Exploitative. Yes. He hasn't been practicing talking for a week. It's actually true. That's probably not the reason why that just happened, but it is true. But I have also seen reaction content that has like made channels, basically.

For sure. For sure. It totally happens. And I think a lot of it we were talking about earlier, but like how instead of the algorithm, you should say community. I think a lot of it has to do with the community that follows that person. Are they only ever going to watch this person's content because of the host and they have no real cares about the source and they're never going to follow through. They're never going to go to that channel. They're never going to check it out, whatever. Or is it a community of people that are going to follow through they're never going to go to that channel they're never going to check it out whatever or is it a community of people that are going to follow through and are going to give

support when they want when the creator watches different videos whatever the problem with that argument is it's not up to you yeah it's up to the original copyright holder well for sure yeah so it doesn't matter what you think no i well that's not a good take well it doesn't though well it doesn't matter that's not my statement oh i thought, it doesn't though. Well, it doesn't matter. That's not my statement. Oh, I thought you were saying that I, as the reactor can just decide, well, no,

my audience isn't really going to follow through on this. So I should just show it to them. No. Oh, okay. I misunderstood you. No. Cause I was like,

really? What I'm saying is that in, in, in, in, I think especially the current era, there's a big mix of ones that are good and aren't good. And obviously-

Even within individuals, there's a mix of doing the right thing and being extremely lazy. I've seen example clips of someone who will go from really good reactionary content to a piece of content that probably makes you want to go follow through and see the original creator, all that kind of stuff and then the next clip they're like eating so it just plays the

video and they literally never say a whole thing other than just like while they're chewing and it's like wow all right yeah well i don't really know what to say about this but well i know what to say it is but i'm they might watch LTT and I'm not supposed to insult the audience. Got them. But yeah, I don't know. I know of channels that exist that basically only exist because reaction channels blew them up.

But then I also know of channels that hate it and have openly tried to get people to stop and people just keep doing it. And it's like, okay, well, it the answer is really simple the answer is reach out and ask yeah and that i do also know people that do that right now and that's the worst part like i i have personally had content used in montages or like mashups or reaction videos or whatever. Yeah, like someone brought up in floatplane chat, Gardner Bryant was a Linux creator that reacted to some of our Linux challenge videos. I watched them. I thought they were really good.

Yep. Yeah. But hold on. Okay, I'll get to that in a second but i i have i have personally known of huge creators like enormous creators that did not did not have a valid fair use argument for their use of our content gotcha um and could have reached out like it like like absolutely could have reached out or had their staff reach out like i'm talking creators with a staff um you know like star wars kid um that's an old reference anyway i just didn't and that's just that's just pure laziness yeah um even

people even people I know. So there's a handful of creators that I have a standing agreement with. Like Austin Marquez, for example. It's like, hey, can we just have a mutual, if I need to use a clip from you and I'm sure I'd say it's from you. You attribute it or whatever.

And if you use a clip from me and make sure that you do the same, can we just not email every time sure but that's that's a positive that's a constructive way to build community just taking stuff and being like oh it'll probably benefit them i don't know maybe that's not cool and it should never be acceptable and you know you have to ask yourself one one of the pillars of your reaction channel going to be that you reach out every time for every video? I think we should, yeah. I think that... Well, you're speaking out against it, so I think it would have to be, right?

Well, it depends, right? So if you are reacting to... Okay, so a perfect example of this would be the recent CoffeeZilla Logan Paul controversy. Logan Paul's not going to give coffeezilla permission to to utilize portions of his video but in that case coffeezilla is clearly transforming the original work that is not sitting and eating while the logan paul video plays as like a weird spectacle or whatever else. So in the case of a clear and obvious fair use argument, I don't think we have to.

So we just have to... Why would you? Sorry? Is that reaction channel going to cover divisive things like that? I don't know. We're not sure yet is it is it a tech reaction channel is it so let's go let's let's talk about some of the things we we have in here so um you know one of the things we could do is like we've done a few of these on the main channel

like reacting to community submissions like best and worst builds and stuff like that um reacting to submissions it's a totally different thing but it's still it's it's reaction content but it's not it's ethical reaction it's not reaction content in the way that the internet would would interpret the term reaction content really internet would you consider that to be reaction content i don't think they would because if you say react pull it okay let's pull it all right i'm gonna do my pull dance oh my god you're gonna get some reaction content from that they're gonna side with you they're gonna side with you even if i'm right because you're wrong no it's reaction content

anyway it is reaction content by definition of the term it is not reaction content by how the internet interprets that if you say but you asked react channel yeah people are going to think that you're reacting to videos because that's how that works right now if it's user submitted videos that is seen as a different thing all right i like i'm working on poll results why don't you if you're so confident why don't you put up a poll smart guy i'm typing it out come on okay so some other ideas um you know i really love what corridor crew does where they will bring on experts to react to um you know so that's actually that's such a good example of how you can take very obviously copyrighted work from very aggressive IP companies, like a Disney, for example, and confidently include stills or even motion from their content in your video.

in your video because if you are for example doing a detailed breakdown of how the cgi was done for a particular scene you're sitting there you're talking about how much work it was and how cool it was you are not using a substantial amount the effect on the original work is obviously positive um the nature of your your own work work is clearly more informative and or educational slash factual. And even though the nature of the copyrighted work is purely fictional, the way it is being transformed into something that is educational is very, very cut and dried, right? So anyway, bringing in experts, you know something that i've wanted to do for a long time on the ltt channel we just haven't gotten around to it might have even gotten as far as an email to wendell sup wendell um is i want to do

ltt reacts to like bad hacking scenes and movies that'd be amazing is that react enough for you that'd be amazing is that react enough for you that that fits my term i right that's what i'm saying is that so yes okay is that acceptable well maybe not is that under the umbrella of reaction content i don't know if it is okay uh what is common oh your poll is bad because it makes it seem like a binary choice because i didn't include a both oh yeah floatplane chat does not like it yeah because they want to both okay but that's complete that defeats the whole point all right um and they don't get that and you don't get that but it defeats the whole point uh we want to do reacting to like bad product listings so like going through

like uh you know facebook marketplace you know people who think their computers worth way too much we actually did one of those before tech means the question I didn't leave the question reacting to old we found that more people will click the top option I put the top option is not the one that I was saying they're right they don't like your poll in there right no they're wrong. They're all wrong. The whole audience is wrong. We've got reacting to old videos of ours.

So one of the suggestions was Linus finally watches what it's like to work for Linus and reacts to it, which I commented on. I said I won't do it. But you said you never would. Yeah.

I was like, no, we can't do that one. That one's off limits. But like overall, that's not a bad idea. Yeah. Best and worst of TikTok, stuff like that like that but again that's getting into the gray area unless we're doing a really good job of reaching out to people um which i will i will tell you right now for our uh for our trying tiktok hacks videos in the past i don't think we've reached out to people however what we've done has been highly transformative we are we are actually doing things we're actually trying them i'm not eating a box of noodles

while i watch other people's content um okay yeah yeah so i think what it basically comes down to is just being ethical about it and adhering to the four pillars of fair use and making sure that regardless of who it is and whether they could afford to take us to court over it, making sure that we would have a strong fair use argument that we believe with certainty that we would win. That's, I think, the bottom line. And or just getting permission from the original creator

right that's where we're that's where we're at on it because at this point like you're kind of stupid not to have a react channel it's kind of like a clips channel man do you guys have any idea how long they pushed me around here to do a clips channel for the wan show do you know how successful the clips channel is i think it makes more money than the actual wan show probably which is like how does that even make any sense it's just like must actually yeah because you're dividing it up into a bunch of content and each one of those content pieces is doing well lmg clips gets 10 million views a month. It is actually, in terms of just overall viewership, it is on par with what I would consider to be B-tier tech channels. And I'm sitting here going, how is that even possible?

They know they can just link to a timestamp in the WAN show, right? But that's not how people engage with content they want it to be digestible and there's a huge contingent of our viewers that is absolutely just militantly opposed to watching long format content like the wan show but does want to hear about what we talk about on the wan show and i've said this before like i i i'm not going to sit down and watch the whole wayAN show oh yeah Yvonne's the same way yeah she is she never looks at WAN show but she's like she'll devour clips she's like yeah what are Linus and Luke talking about this week yeah and I've always understood why people like the uh the the the time stamp guy in the description or in the pinned comment sorry yeah because like yeah it's a really especially

lately man we've had some like three hour three and a half hour shows based on how many of our topics we've hit so far today this is gonna be a marathon you down dad like they get pretty intense so being able to sit down and watch the whole thing especially in one sitting it's like it's like half a half a work day and you know what the reality of it is that a good title and thumbnail works like this is a great this is great uh a prime in the float plane chat who is alex alex p one of our one of our editors uh he goes i watch when i edit tech tips i'm gonna add something here. I am really good at creating YouTube thumbnails.

I am literally like a creator of the drug, right? I'm a dealer. I still end up being clickbaited into WAN clips. It is literally content he has seen before from people he can talk time he wants who he works in the same building as at least some of them yeah um and he still manages to click on it that's so funny i don't make the rules right like i don't it comes back to that conversation about is it the algorithm or is it the audience?

I don't determine what works. Yeah. You just have to kind of go with the flow. You have to go with the flow. You got to go with the flow. So we're going to make a Reacts channel. We're also going to tell you about our sponsors. Also, Names of Things i was i dove into this recently

i was playing tarkov with a tarkov creator and he made a clip i killed a cheater in a game that we were playing in and he made a like youtube short thing of it but he called it first of all his name is goat moth but the goat the o and goat is a zero okay just like yeah if you never want to be searchable ever that's probably good and then he named the short how to kill a gaming chair assuming that people would understand the meme of like they're not cheating they must just have a really good gaming chair i'm like man man like man i'm not really in the game anymore but but but come on brother boom roasted um anyways yeah okay uh sponsors oh and then we're going to do the evil wheel or whatever this thing is called. The wheel of pain.

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Get 15% off with offer code WANSHOW at the link down below. All right. What do you want to talk about next, Mr. Luke? What's the the wheel tell me what the wheel let's do the wheel of pain uh i don't know if this is going to be a regular segment i don't know if we're going to come up with like different segments or whatever else but basically i asked for a wheel and i pitched kind of a fun idea for the show today uh we're gonna play a game called devil's advocate okay i feel like that's just how the show works no but this this way is a little

different okay so i still can't read you are going to spin the wheel okay and i'm already excited whatever boneheaded thing that happened in the world of tech this week. Oh, apparently I'm supposed to spin the wheel. Okay. I will spin the wheel. I'm not excited. Well, let's do let's take turns. Okay.

We each get to spin the wheel. Beautiful. All right. So whatever boneheaded thing happened in the world of tech. Okay. You have to defend it. Oh, okay. Okay.

Okay. So the topic list for this week. Oh, so are these topics? Yes. Ah. Is Twitter's ban on third-party apps. Okay. Apple TV's terms of service requiring a separate iOS device to accept them.

Okay. Samsung's attempt to use patents to block refurbished screen imports. AI art generators but i feel like we should rule out ai art generators just because we've already talked about it on the show um so we'll if it lands on that we'll spin again yeah and wyoming's bill that was introduced to phase out ev sales by 2035 okay okay okay do you want to go first or should I go first? So wait, what happens? Is the spinner defending it? The spinner will defend whatever topic comes up. Okay.

On the wheel of pain. I don't care who goes first. Okay. Whatever works. Go for it. Okay. Either way, right? Yeah, I don't think you're... Wow, really? That's your spin? That's weak. You can't spin it again! I didn't see what it was so it doesn't matter Well, they did

You must have oh no. What is it? Oh, no, you must defend Twitter banning third-party apps I Feel like I should run through so here's how we'll do it the sorry guys. This is our first time doing it We should talk about the topic. I will run through the topic. Okay okay and then you will defend it yeah i like it last thursday all or nearly all third party twitter apps broke the same day a clause was quietly added to its developer agreement banning the creation of a substitute or similar service to the twitter application so in effect i don't even remember some of the names of third-party twitter clients that i've used in the past but i have used them hootsuite um yeah yeah sure okay yeah uh in in effect tools like hootsuite or no there used to

be like okay for example on windows phone there wasn't a first-party twitter client there was like a third-party one that just hooked into the api and made it you know use it wasn't great but it was usable um after a long silence twitter has announced that it was simply enforcing its long-standing api rules which may result in some apps not working twitter has not responded to any questions about which longstanding rules were broken. Well, they don't have a PR department. Questions that were posed by prominent members of the tech community, like our friend over at MKBHD, one Marques Keith Brownlee, in high definition. In 2021, Twitter had actually removed a clause discouraging but not banning third-party apps as a way of building a warmer relationship

with these developers. In other news, Twitter is now being sued by a consulting firm claiming that it has not been paid for services rendered to Twitter during its lawsuit to force Musk to follow through on his purchase of the company. That's really funny.

Okay, we'll talk about that more later. That's really, really funny. Anyway, okay. I think you still have, isn't there one more thing? Nope. Oh, that's just not very interesting. Okay. Twitter is going through a refacing right now. it has a new ceo it has a lot

of new employees it has a lot less total employees does it have a lot of new employees i believe so don't they didn't they aren't they hiring twitter yeah twitter yeah didn't they let go like 75 of their workforce i think they're also hiring oh okay yeah okay so they've got new employees okay what's that employees oh yeah did anything? They have some new employees. Oh, yeah. Did I mention that the other person is allowed to poke holes in your defense the whole time?

Sure, yeah. I haven't made one yet. Okay. So maybe you can sit the F down. This is going to be so hard. No, you have to be straight-faced. You're not allowed to acknowledge it. All right.

Yeah, okay. So, yeah, they have a new face and they need to be able to control their image because their image matters, right? And having all these third party apps running around, making custom experiences that are different to what they are trying to tailor make for the audience could be bad for the platform. And they should enforce various rules that they have. You shouldn't just set rules and then not enforce them.

It can be frustrating to be on a platform where the rules are really loosey-goosey and they get applied to some people in a certain way and other people in a certain way. It's a lot easier if it's very clear what you can and cannot do. So if rules exist, they should be enforced. No, no, no. I have to stop you right there because it's obviously not clear what rules are. Right, so they're trying to make it clear that no they're not trying to make it clear they're not responding oh they don't have a pr department when

people but that's not part of the debate so it's okay no that is not okay because a key foundational piece of your argument is that they are trying to improve the clarity of their rules. Yeah, by enforcing them. By enforcing them. But if no one can figure out what rules are being violated, then they obviously aren't clear enough. Oh, just don't make third-party apps. Just don't make third-party apps. That's not a defense of it. That's the conclusion of it.

Yeah, but that's okay. So you're just saying it's okay? Yeah, just don't make third-party apps. Fundamentally, that's all you got. I think it's okay. So you're just saying it's okay? Yeah. Just don't make third-party apps. Fundamentally, that's all you got. I think it's fine. Twitter doesn't want you to make third-party apps, so don't make third-party apps. It seems pretty clear to me. I don't see why they would need a PR department because the answer is very obvious.

Don't make third-party apps. I see. And just to kind of bring us back a little bit to your argument that Twitter is concerned about the image that it presents to the rest of the world, and the damage that third-party apps could do to it. I mean, do I even have to explain how wrong that is? Twitter is doing all... They're trying to release new features. They're trying to release new functionality. And if these third-party apps don't support those features and functionality, then those aren't going to get to the users. The image, the way that people interpret and use Twitter could be deeply affected by these third

party apps not responding and reflecting the experience that Twitter is trying to create for its users. So maybe they just shouldn't exist. And if it follows the rules to get rid of them, well, they should get rid of them well they should get rid of them because they should enforce their rules i see so if your goal in life is to have your product be as much of a dumpster fire as possible then you are well within your rights to ensure that every user who interacts with it experiences the full dumpster fire. I wouldn't word it that way, but they are fully within their rights, correct? Okay. Your argument boils down to legally they're within their rights.

That is a true state. I, again, wouldn't word it that way, but that is a true statement. Again, they're creating new features. I believe there's, I'm not super familiar with Twitter features, but I believe there's i uh i believe there's i'm not super familiar with twitter features but i believe there's new home feed i believe there's new feeds in your home i don't know okay i don't know twitter features very well but if the third-party apps don't reflect that and that's a big thing that they want to push because they have this massive wave of new users so clearly they're doing something right um and their servers have

not gone down despite everyone saying that they would uh they want to push twitter in a new direction and you don't want third-party people controlling what direction your platform is able to go in okay they're able to do imagine you were releasing videos all right and you started releasing a new type of video but some third-party thing was just like, we're just not going to release that type of video whenever they release it. Would that annoy you as a video creator? But what about user choice? Would it annoy you as a video creator?

As a video creator, if someone created a curated feed of my videos... If you started making a new type of content... No, and that's the reason that Twitter has engaged with these third-party apps over the course of their entire history is because overall they benefit from a broader ecosystem compared to a closed, more narrow one. If you were using Twitch...

Sure. And you make a fixed... Say Twitch does more things than it does. Say Twitch actually was successful when they tried to do FODs. Sure. Shots fired. twitch does more things than it does say twitch actually was successful when they tried to do vods sure shots fired um and you started releasing a new type of review content and it's compatible with twitch but twitch just decides to not upgrade i don't know say it's like av1 or something sure and uh twitch doesn't update so a bunch of users on twitch are now unable to view those videos but you've curated a massive user base on twitch that sees your standard content so now you have these weird segmented content yeah you have some stuff that's going

on yeah and and other stuff that can't go on twitch yeah and if that's they're refusing to update their platform and if that third party if that third party... Because they're refusing to update their platform. And if that third party platform doesn't update, then obviously they're going to shed users through natural attrition. You can't communicate to those users directly about this. Communication to those users is controlled by that platform. Why is this a good thing for you? There's no benefit.

The benefit is... So kill all third-party apps okay so you can actually control feature functionality all right so uh the last new rule i'm going to add to this segment is that we're going to have to add a time limit because that took too long and uh two our adjudicator will be dan uh so dan can you you give Luke a rating out of 10 for his defense of Twitter just cutting off third-party apps? I don't know. That did seem pretty weak.

I'm probably going to give you a 3 out of 10 because they're legally allowed to do it. Like, no, that's kind of weak. That wasn't my argument. That's because I said he worded it wrong. Well, if your argument wasn't clear, then it's still a three out of ten defense Okay, I need to make sure that I just completely oh

You do the thing that you don't like What did I do? I? Need to shadow ban Linus. What did I do? It just wasn't my argument, and then it's you said that it was Yeah, you did when just now that Dan said it he regurgitated that you said that it was. No, I did say it was. Yeah, you did. When? Just now that Dan said it. He regurgitated what you said. Well, that was the argument you were making at the time. No, it wasn't.

Fine. That was when I was paying attention. I was saying if they're going to have rules, they should enforce them. I wasn't saying that it's legally within their rights. Yeah, but they don't, they haven't made these rules clear. They don't seem to have them. You can't, if they had these rules then they should reply and say what the rules are but it's clear that they don't want anyone to know what

the rules are because then they might be able to adjust their third-party apps to adhere to the rules but they don't want third-party apps and that i will that's fair enough. Yeah. But to say that they want clarity in their rules, that's a bad, that's a bad argument. I didn't say they want clarity. You did say that. I said they want to enforce them. This is going to be a great segment. It's already great.

I'm already angry. Yeah, I don't think I've seen him this fired up in forever. I can talk again. I got a lot of pent up energy. Okay, so, I mean i mean yeah they don't want apps right luke but yeah but why shouldn't they allow apps if it dilutes their brand is because they're worse than what twitter's making yes yeah oh come on i mean that's that's come on okay dan you still have to rate it we still have have to move on. I get to spin the wheel. There's a poll who won the Twitter argument

and I'm winning 67%. You managed to get an extra point. Are you happy? I'm going to burn this court to the ground. I'll put a timer and I'll make some things for next time. It'll be fancy. The real main reason for it.

Yes, it boils down to they simply don't want third party apps has nothing to do with the rules it has nothing to do with any kind of um what if the rule is that there's no third party apps it has nothing to do with any well that isn't though it has nothing to do with any kind of benefit of having a smaller ecosystem other than that many third-party apps do not display ads so twitter is trying desperately desperately to something i don't know was that not defendable i feel like that would be easier to defend than what i just defended it could be it could be but because now you're fighting against your own argument sure but you're also fighting against your own partners and your own users your user your

partners you have you have you're defending adblock so no yeah what you could do doesn't send ads and it uses twitter's service there's a correct way to update your api rules the correct way is you give a time window for compliance and you create transparent well-communicated rules and those transparent well-communicated rules include hey you have to display ads at the same rate that the original twitter app does don't want and then party apps at all unless they just don't want third-party apps, which is, I mean, ultimately what you said, which is right, but it's not a defense. It's a statement of fact, but it's not a defense. It's still crappy.

It's bad partnership. It's bad management. Now I get to play. Sure. All right. I'm only familiar with some of these topics. I don't get a final statement. Is it this? Oh, it's the AI art generators

one. Okay, I'll try again. Spin again. Yeah, this is hard to spin. I shouldn't have made fun of your weak spin. Because the monitor, the screens are in the way. Any better. Bloody hell, did I just get AI art generators again? Yeah, I did. Crying out loud. Okay, I'll give it a proper spin. Just get away from the screens. There you go. There we go.

Let's go! Okay. Oh, no. What is it? Samsung screen patent. Okay, Luke, tell us about it. I gotta find it. One sec.

Do-do-do-do-do-do. Where is it? I guess I can control it. Yeah, it's in the dock. it's in the dock it's in the dock for next time in the section of devil's advocate the topic list should be hyperlinked yes there's you know what there's a lot of things that we could do better we're just it's a small thing i wasn't really we're trying stuff right like we want to we want to kind of try to we want to kind of try to without losing track of what the when show is we want to kind of try and find some novel ways to

engage with these topics is basically the goal here. I hope you guys are enjoying it. I am actually. Man, he's getting fired up. I like it. So the reason why I couldn't find it was this is the US farmers win right to repair argument or right to repair farm equipment while Samsung undermines independent screen repair. There's been a bunch of posts in float plane chat, um, that this isn't legit. We'll see through how this is written,

how legit that we say it is. Okay. Um, but people are saying that apparently this John Deere didn't actually do that. And Lewis Rossman has a video about it. Then I guess we'll, okay.

We'll see what the notes say. Yeah. We'll see. I guess it'll be good feedback for our new notes creator yeah this month john deere signed a memorandum of understanding with the american farm bureau an agricultural lobbyist oh great uh acknowledging the american farmers god-given right to fix their own equipment including bringing it to independent repair facilities. The move follows years of efforts by John Deere to lock down its products, which make up over 50% of the U.S. tractors and combines market. Farmers have long reported huge delays during planting and

harvesting due to repair times. There is hope that this memorandum might act as a framework for future law, but similar to New York's recent right to repair legislation, these kinds of agreements are often riddled with caveats and loopholes. I do believe that's like the issue. Voluntary standards are not enforceable and the language of the memorandum is vague. Oh, that's an issue.

Right. So I'm not allowed to say anything in 2018 john deere signed a similar agreement with the california farm bureau to limited effect and john deere has agreed to provide its repair tools for sale as well as granting access to manuals product guides and diagnostic codes okay meanwhile and i think this is the actual part that we're talking about because i think this just said samsung yeah it did okay so meanwhile samsung is now attempting to use an old oled patent to get certain aftermarket and refurbished device screens

banned from import into the united states thanks to buy underscore mu m-i-e-w mu who posted a link to this on the LCT forum. This would restrict buyers from getting their phones repaired solely from the original vendor or licensed partners, which means the company can simply refuse to fix it. Samsung argues that this proposed ban is in part to protect consumers from inferior or defective products. Samsung has also added some tools and parts to its self-repair program with iFixit for Galaxy S22 phones and some Galaxy laptops.

Some tools and parts. Who knows if it's all of them. There are still tons of devices that aren't covered, and the program appears to focus primarily on flagship products from the last three years, excluding easily broken foldables and popular budget models the replacement screen for the galaxy s22 lineup comes bundled with a replacement battery and frame it is not available separately and tons of other parts just aren't available at all do we do the discussion topics when we do no i don't think so i don't think so either okay i get to go now yes i think this one is actually pretty simple to defend and the reason for that nice essay intro

is that well i'm buying time obviously i know okay the reason for that is that as you made an argument for very recently actually i am samsung right so i'm i'm taking i'm taking on the role of samsung so i am well within my right to defend my patent if someone has a problem with my patent uh and thinks that for whatever reason they should be able to import their own inferior or knockoff products that violate it well then the correct legal process for them to go through defending a patent it didn't say anything about defending a patent yeah yeah yeah they're using their oled patent to get aftermarket and refurbished device screens banned from import into the U.S.

Okay. And so if I hold a patent on these devices, well, at the end of the day, I have to defend my patent. And besides, there should be no reason that a user who purchased an authentic Samsung device made up out of completely authentic Samsung parts should want an inferior part. Why would they? If they wanted an inferior part. Why would they? If they wanted an inferior part, well, then they could...

It's irrelevant what they want, though. Well, then they could go buy something from some other vendor. You shouldn't be deciding what the user wants. Well, I know what they want because they bought a Samsung phone. You still don't get to decide what they want, though. But they didn't want to compromise on quality

in the first place, so why would they want to now? Maybe their opinion has changed. You don't get to decide that their opinion or stance on things changes. Phones are also extremely... You don't own your users. Phones are also... You just own your patent.

Phones are extremely intricate devices. They are complex. They are difficult to repair. And, and, here's the thing. I don't believe that the difficulty of repair should actually judge anything. Our entire lives are essentially tied to our phones. We run off of our phones. And so if there is a risk that the user could,

thinking that they are getting a Samsung part, not ultimately get a brand new, authentic, fully functioning Samsung part, they could actually end up in a... Was that part of the argument either? I don't think there's any duping the users about it being functioning Samsung part, they could actually end up in this... Was that part of the argument either? I don't think there's any duping the users about it being a Samsung part. I would make the argument that the duping does not necessarily have to be done

by the manufacturer of the part. I think that as... So, do you like repair shops telling you it's genuine? As soon as you make these janky parts available to budget repair shops, I think it is as likely that these repair shops will pass along the discount as it is that these repair shops will misrepresent the product as a genuine Samsung product. That creates a tarnish on the Samsung brand when users ultimately start to perceive Samsung as less performant and less reliable. start to perceive samsung as less performant and less reliable okay the other bit and this is this is really important is that sure you can attack the limited devices that we're providing our

self-service repair and our parts for but i think it's pretty clear that for these older devices it probably doesn't make economic sense for people to go and repair them anyway, given that we have great new phones available like the A-series. I don't think it's up to you to decide what is worth repairing and not worth repairing. But I get to make my argument, right? I'm also allowed to make counter-arguments. So I do believe that if you want to enforce this level of patent, that you should make available all parts needed to repair said phones. And I do believe that they should not have to be bundled. I don't think you should have to buy a frame for a phone when you actually just need to replace a screen.

Sure, but here's the issue with that. For us to build these products to a standard of quality that our customers expect, it's not economically viable. customers expect it's not economically viable when the reality of it is when we're mass producing them we can deliver a great quality product like the a series that is functionally not even that much more expensive than if you were to just buy a display now you've got a brand new device with a great camera great display as a part of your mass manufacturing you can just create additional screens brand new battery well we don't have the line spun up for these old phones anymore. Why would we? We're not making them.

Create more in the first place. But we didn't do that. It is fairly... It's too late. Well, you should commit to doing that in the future. Well, we can talk about that in the future, but for now, we haven't. As for foldables... I think as a part, if you want to push this bill through...

Are you letting me finish? No. I am allowed to make counter arguments. I think if you want to push this through, we will have to make some form of agreement that you would over manufacture parts in the future as would be expected from a company that is going to service warranties anyways.

By saying that you can fix these phones directly, you are saying that you have these parts on hand. I'm not saying you can fix the phones. The average user is an idiot. And based on that, you don't seem to be understanding my argument. I think you might be one of them. Don't even go there. Finally.

You're saying that you can fix the phones, which means that you have the parts. So the argument of not having the part is completely useless. But the costs are high. Sure. But you're saying that you can fix the phone. But there's storage costs. You have the part. Right.

And there's training costs. So charge the the users and we have to build the tools we have to build the program for this it's going to take time finally actually none of that makes any sense there's no training cost to train users to fix their own phones oh you have to create you have to create the program where they are trained to do it absolutely no you don't apple apple did it don't they charge people for it no but you have to do it it's a it's a fixed cost associated with running the program you absolutely have to do it a self-repair program just sell it through iFixit well we are selling parts through iFixit sell more and in individual components instead of packages it's gonna take time besides you gotta understand a lot of the sourcing for the components of a phone is not done individually.

Like, even at the factory. Okay? Yeah, but you sell a screen as a component. It's going to have the connector cable. It's going to have everything else combined. Sure, look, you work for this channel, Linus Tech Tips or something like that, right? Technically, no.

Okay, so they did... Maybe not anymore. I haven't fired Luke in a while. Okay, they did a video where they toured the factory of one of our competitors where you could plainly see that on the factory floor components are actually coming in as assemblies like we're not gonna we're not gonna take finished assemblies and then break them apart into their constituent components for these repair programs, at the very most, you could possibly expect, we would provide the same assemblies that we use. Right now, we're currently talking about a screen, correct?

Yeah, but a screen... So a screen would be one unit at one point in time in that process, correct? Not necessarily. Because, I mean, you've got to understand, like, with global manufacturing, that screen factory that is creating the assemblies, that is not, like, a shipping endpoint for this supply chain. That goes to a factory as an assembly. You can repair a phone. Yes.

If I send you one of my Samsung phones. We will use an assembly. We will use an assembly. So sell an assembly. Right. But I'm only talking about this because you told me not to sell assemblies. I don't think I said anything about an assembly. We will use an assembly. So sell an assembly. Right. But I'm only talking about this because you told me not to sell assemblies. I don't think I said anything about an assembly. Well, let the audience be the judge of that.

The package that includes a frame and whatnot else, I don't think is the assembly that you're describing. Well, it depends. That assembly may be very fragile. And there could be a high chance that the user would damage it. It's going to have to be handled on a case-by-case basis. No. Anyway, my final point, if I can finally make it, is that

we're going to have to handle these things case-by-case, and as for foldables... I don't believe you have to handle them case-by-case. Okay, I really do need to get this last point out so that we can get through the segment. Okay. As for foldables, you don't need replacement screens. A, because they are basically functionally impossible to replace.

And B, they're flexible displays. How could you possibly break it? There. I rest my case. Unless there's a manufacturing defect. Can you fix a folding phone? If a user has an issue with it and sends you a folding phone? I'm talking to you as Samsung.

I'm Samsung the character right now? I legitimately don't know. I actually don't know if they'd be able to. They're quite fused. No, I know. Yeah. Okay, well, great points for playing the character of Samsung.

I was shaking and angry that whole time. I hate you so much Yes You did an excellent job Embodying Samsung and all of the talking points That I can see them making Which are all disgusting and god damn it Oh my cheeks hurt

Yeah so you certainly get a A bunch more points for Wow rude well i didn't feel like you were twitter you didn't make me feel like you were twitter do you know what i mean like um but yeah i don't know the arguments are are weak and i think i would have preferred to have a take that was why linus would want to protect his phones. Like if Creator Warehouse made a phone, why you would lock them down with a serial number and ID in the screen. I see.

Okay. Well, you got to give me a score. You're getting a six. I get a six! I win! Six! Because I almost cried. Oh, I would just like to fix things.

All right. What would it take to get like a nine? Well, let's see. A nine to me would be your points are... Because that was pretty... I felt like he had me on the ropes for a little while there. Oh, yeah. No, absolutely.

And then I had some ways to throw back. But what would he have to do? What would that argument need to look like to be a nine i think you would probably have to make a good case for it i think it might be impossible inherently because the segment is called actually i don't know if i ever told you guys what it's called it's called defend the indefensible oh yeah that's what the version of the wheel of pain is this week so you would have to actually win Dan over yeah I mean not necessarily as well because I have my own biases

I'm extremely biased against that entire topic right? so for you there is no 9 basically is what I'm trying to get to I don't think there should be if there was a way if there was a reason for Linus to come up with that would make sense like I don know, even locking down the batteries.

You're not allowed to open your phone because you're going to destroy the battery and you're going to blow up your house. You know, liability issues, that sort of thing. There's no eventual argument I think you could find for these topics. And that's, yeah. argument I think you could find for these topics. I think that a well-designed Defend the Indefensible should

never have a 9 out of 10 or a 10 out of 10. So basically, it comes down to how well you can play the part. I think we absolutely need to set a time limit for next time or we need to set a speaker's baton or whatever. So we can't talk over absolutely need to set a time limit for next time or we need to set like a like a clear um like a

speaker's baton or whatever yes so we can't talk over each other but there's like a clear i state my case you offer your rebuttal i get to kind of close out my argument and then the judge decides yeah and i think it should take place over a span of like three to four minutes i think it's a pretty good time that's a good idea ferna 182 in the floatplane chat says a nine should be being so convincing you actually need to punch the other person in the face i mean i was getting there you you the pure patent argument was actually pretty good i think it was and i think you had to because you have to follow the points that are being made in the like article or whatever sure but uh once you once you veered off the purely talking about patents then it started getting pokeable but when it's just a patent it's like

oh yeah they do actually well yeah it's like that's your patent so like no yeah no and i mean i mean okay i think you could probably poke holes in that anyway you could attack the broken patent system oh yeah i mean it's atrocious yeah i mean uh we we became aware of a patent that is basically just like attaching rgb leds to a particular like uh like product you want to know something i'm sitting here going well come on right and the legal process for it is either you just make your product wait for them to sue you and then counter sue or you have to like go and try and get their patent invalidated and it's like okay brutal yeah yeah sorry what were you gonna say the so i don't know

if you remember this but really long time ago there was a game i don't remember what game it was uh but during loading screens minor vga during loading screens there's like a little mini game that you could play you know about this yes i do um and there's a patent on mini games during loading screens which like isn't that important these days because most loading screens are pretty short now right but back in the day there were some loading screens that were pretty chungus if you were playing like morrowind on the original xbox it was long that loading screen took forever loading back off of like dvds and cds and stuff like that used to take a really long time

painful so at that point in time if you could just play like pong yeah like if you're playing a multiplayer game and there's a huge loading screen you and your buddy can like fight each other in pong or like some other like who cares little game that'll just keep you interested that would have been way better but some dynamco well yeah yeah yeah why they patented and then they're just like nope nobody can do it you don't have to pay us and then it's not going to be worth it to pay them for anybody because it's just a minor inconvenience so it's going to buy the game basically decades of people's lives were spent just sitting staring at loading bars staring at loading bars. Staring at loading bars. Just why? What was the point? Money.

Please react to Skyblivion. Yeah, I don't. Oh, I mean, you were talking about it before the show started. It's not in the doc. I'm personally extremely excited. Why don't you tell the people what it is? So Skyblivion, and let me look it up just to make sure that I say it in the way that they say it. Skyblivion is a volunteer-based project by the Test Renewal Modding Group.

Test Renewal. Sure. Yeah. Test Renewal, as far as my understanding goes, includes Skyblivion and Skywind. Is it Skywind? I think it's Skywind, which is the Morrowind in Skyrim Engine. skywind which is the uh morrowind in in skyrim engine uh we aim to bring the elder scrolls 4 oblivion to a new generation of gamers and reintroduce it to long time fans of the series we are currently in the process of remaking cyrodiil along with all of its quests locations

and characters into skyrim and skyrim special edition so they built oblivion into the skyrim engine that is wild and they when they make like textures and and everything else that goes into making a game visually auditorially everything else they made really good quality ones so it looks better than skyrim did when it launched wow and sky like vanilla skyrim is it's okay it's okay it's dated but sure it feels old but it doesn't feel old like uh like original runescape or morrowind for example like it doesn't feel old like that yeah oblivion like i can't tell what that is it's not that kind of old yeah like is that supposed to be leather or stone yeah you know so it's it's skyrim was like wood it's kind of okay. It doesn't age as bad as a lot of old games, even though it's from over a decade ago.

But the models and stuff that they've made, let's talk about fair use for a second. I can show part of the trailer here. Can I? This player like- You can try. Let me bring it up on YouTube. It's going to show an ad.

Oh my goodness. skip there we go let's jump into it like it looks that looks really really good it looks great this isn't the skyrim engine so the controls are going to be pretty good it supports these like high resolution textures because the Skyrim engine does. The marble jaws of living. I'm super excited about this. The announcement is like 2025 or something. Right.

But they've been working on this for a really long time. So the fact that it has a date at all is fantastic. And what I've heard from at least one member of the team is that they think that the date is very safe. Right. They think they're going to be done ahead of the date that they placed. But they put it there because they're like, we can definitely make this. And that's the right way to approach it. Does that horse have armor, though?

There's some armor sitting on top of the horse. there's some armor sitting on top of the horse and yeah you can see like no it no it doesn't look like a release today new triple a absolute but that's not the point not the point that's not the point looks amazing for the fact that it's oblivion it looks amazing even for like really high quality skyrim mods because this is a really high quality Skyrim mod which is just the entirety of Oblivion and the thing is like super super excited the bar isn't as high for an older game you're just trying to make it digestible for a modern gamer like I tried to play Morrowind when you talked about how much you loved it and this is even like 10 years ago I just couldn't it's brutal I couldn't get into it yeah and like for my kids for example

you know like i might love final fantasy 6 but between the janky translation and lack of creature comforts like auto save and stuff like like it's just it's hard for them to get into it whereas like i'm sitting here going oh yeah pixel remaster even if it's just to kind of share something that i love with my kids it's probably worth the 25 bucks or whatever it is uh versus just like you know blowing out a cart and sticking it into uh into a snes and you know it's yeah just not worth it apparently someone in a full plane chat said they they did add horse armor she's genuinely hilarious um but yeah skywind is the other one i'm obviously like more excited about skywind because morrowind's my favorite game but oblivion's a i i loved oblivion it's the one elder

scrolls game i've actually played yeah like all the way through tons of side quests like i played the crap out of oblivion it's a really good game um i wasn't i didn't have a good computer for morrowind and then i had a lot on my plate for skyrim that makes sense yeah yeah oblivion was a massive step in like visual fidelity and game mechanics that were approachable for people sure um a lot of what i don't like about the step from morrowind to oblivion is like mororrowind had more different weapon categories and deeper systems in certain ways. Yeah, but you play Tarkov. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, oh, I'm sorry. You want to put that bullet in that gun in that weather at that time of day? Well, 366 ammo fits in a 7.62 mag, but it doesn't fit into a 7.62 rifle. Anywho. Yeah, so, like, I understand. But, yeah, I'm really, really excited about this. I'm absolutely going to play it the day it launches. Really cool project.

I do believe they're looking for volunteers. So if you're into whatever they're looking for, probably development. But I know they often look... It might be done now, I don't know, but they often look for voice actors and whatever else because they're redoing a lot of the voice lines and stuff. As far as I know, they're adding more

than what the base game had. That's pretty cool. So I don't know. Hopefully I didn't say anything wrong there, but very exciting. Why don't we do a couple of merch messages? For those of you wondering, the way to have your message come across

the bottom of the screen here, maybe get an answer from Dan, maybe we'll talk about it on the show, is you head over to lttstore.com and we've got a new product announcement this week. Yeah. There's more. Wait, what the crap

Where's the link to this Ah yes here it is We have a new color of underwear Now with this Cool like circuit design In yellow black and Purple slash white and Blue

Here's all the different styles that we have Thank you to our wonderful Underwear models who helped us Model all the different styles that we have. Thank you to our wonderful underwear models who helped us model all the new styles. Is he dancing with a skeleton? I love it. Thanks, Tynan. That's truly wonderful. I'm having a lively conversation with my mannequin.

Note our matching underwear, by the way. Anywho, we've got lots of stock of these. They just came in and the reviews are in on the LTT underwear. It's four and a half stars or whatever it works out to with over 400 reviews. This has been one of our most successful long-term products. Guys, check them out. Anyway, the reason that I'm mentioning this is because lots of people throw money at, like, well, people who are quite wealthy on the internet and get basically nothing in return other than maybe being noticed by Senpai, which I've always found kind of ridiculous.

So we created a better system. You can send a merch message, and that way Senpai might notice you, Senpai might not. But either way, you will get some quality merchandise in the mail. Just check out the merch messages box in the cart, and your merch message will go through to producer Dan, who will funnel it into the appropriate place where it might go. Dan, do you want to feed us a couple merch messages? Sure, I've got one here from James. Question for Luke and Linus.

Either one of you ever played RuneScape back in the the day seems like a lot of people have forgotten about it i never tried it i i definitely did play um i was very into games like that um what are the other games like that well back then it was i mean not back then it's an mmo runescape different format it was in your browser all this kind of stuff but it was still an mmo sure um i was i was a little small child when runescape was first kind of coming around so i have two stories that i think are funny from back in the runescape days we had net nanny and dial up also known the internet, is probably slower than most people watching this could actually understand, to the point where I tell this story and people think I'm exaggerating, and I'm not. I used to load up RuneScape, and then, I think I've told you this before,

I used to load up RuneScape and then go downstairs, make a sandwich, make some juice, eat the sandwich, drink the juice, go back upstairs. And it was usually almost done loading. And I am not exaggerating. And I eat really slowly. And this is something that I could do consistently. It was impressive to me, even when I was a kid, that it would complete loading. Yeah. But it would. And then I could actually play the game which was great um but and then the other one is that uh it's an mmo people talk to each other and in that game speech bubbles right sure so i would walk by and i would see someone with a speech bubble over their head and i would automatically think they were talking to me so i used to just run up to anyone that was talking and just respond

to anything that they were saying and one of my friends like watched me play once then was like what are you doing and i was like what do you mean and they're like they're not talking to you they're talking to the person that's like standing in front of them or whatever and i'm like oh okay i mean we've all had our idiotic gaming moments i have some far more recent ones than that oh yeah there was this vr game that um was like an arena like a like a three-dimensional arena like space like shooter thing sure um the only way that i the way that i could best describe it is there's this like uh showdown scene where like the the dark jedi student fights one of the good ones in the um in the young jedi knight series of like expanded universe novels where they're in it's basically like this dome cage match zero gravity thing uh so anyway it was like kind of like that um

which is going to be pretty pretty obscure way of describing i actually can picture it perfectly though yeah like but for most the scene with zack and he fight has to fight like jana or whatever it is i don't remember anyway the point is like a lot better than the sequel trilogy anyway um lot better than the sequel trilogy anyway um it was basically that and i didn't realize as i was like sitting there like just talking to myself about like my frustrations and like chatting with you that the mic that the mic in this game is just like automatically open and i've got these like 11 year olds screeching in my ear i can't figure out how to turn it off i'm sitting there going how do i turn this off how to turn this off. I'm sitting there going, how do I turn this off? How do I turn this off? It was definitely an old man moment for me. That's pretty funny.

Yeah. Alright, Dan, hit me. Okay, this one's from Nathan. Thoughts on account-locked phones becoming largely e-waste. Fell into the trap of unknowingly buying a locked phone on eBay and Apple would not take the phone or assist in any way.

They can be used for parts, but it would be nice if they were reusable. Account locked phones? What do you mean? Yeah, iCloud locked phones, that sort of thing. They're basically... I'm going to use Apple. Yeah, they're basically internet factory hardware locked, and you can't get past them very easily at all. Honestly, I fully support it.

I know, controversial take but password like hardware encrypted devices wouldn't this with the store with the nand with like with the storage whether through the nand or through the controller with the storage essentially permanently bound to the board, basically eliminated phone theft. I was just going to say, wouldn't this dissuade phone theft? Yeah. And to be clear,

phone theft is not eliminated and there are workarounds. You can desolder components, but it significantly de-incentivized phone theft. And phone theft was a huge problem in the early to mid-nots. If you were able to

get into the phone could you release your account from it yeah yeah then i don't think it's a problem yeah so it's but but well it is a problem because we run into careless users donating phones and not unlocking them or even careless organizations basically saying yeah um these are all managed by our organization we wish for these to be destroyed because we have whatever irrational concerns about data theft or whatever from our school or whatever stupid thing like what like what what's what's now okay i shouldn't say that there are valid reasons why a school might blah, blah, student grades, et cetera, et cetera. But the point is they can be wiped.

It's fine. Chill. So where they basically dictate, no, these iPads need to be destroyed because someone might find out our typing tutor scores or whatever. You can't take away. I don't think they should take that feature away

just because there's like negligent use no but like we do need a solution though right and the only you know the only really viable solution is a backdoor and a backdoor is automatically a backdoor is a door if you have the key someone else has the key exactly and so i yeah it's it's one of those really tough ones right like i've i've said before on this show um anyone who claims that the solution is simple uh to a problem that has not been solved yet is either a liar or an idiot right all i'm saying here is that i think the solution is worth it. Like, I think phones should be hard-locked. Yeah. Oh, no, no, I meant the solution to the sea waste problem.

Oh, yeah, yeah. And I just, yeah, no, I fully support working device encryption. Whether it's phones or laptops, computers, portable ones, not portable ones, are no longer such a huge target for theft and it's it's in my my take whether i can defend it or not um is i think it's better this way yeah me yeah me too and you know what me. That's one thing that I do agree with. But let me into the bootloader when I own the phone. Yeah.

If you want another one, you're going to move on. You won't get any argument from us there. No. You know what? I want to do a not-merch message one real quick here. This is from Dark24 over on the Floatplane chat. I don't like merch messages. To me, it's too convoluted to try and get a message to

wan show it needs to be as easy as it is on youtube plus i get you think it's better for the user but users don't necessarily care that youtube gets a split where our ltd does not want youtube to get that cut so it's a couple of things um number one is yeah yeah it's more convoluted we had to build the tool ourselves uh because merch messages wasn't working properly still isn't working properly or merch super chats wasn't working properly back to my screen sharing still isn't working properly literally

none the entire show I doubt it oh my god stop usually when I show you guys this there's a like one here because people don't get the message and they send it through here and I'm like okay I mean if you really want to by all means I'm not going to turn I mean, if you really want to, by all means, I'm not going to turn it off. Like if you just want to throw money at the screen, that's, I mean, that's your right, I guess. So yeah, it's convoluted.

We had to build it. But it's also not about being, it's, a part of it is, yeah, I don't should YouTube should get a split for building features that don't work properly. No, no, I actually don't think they do. And we can disagree on that. We've had a lot of cases where you need to refresh the page or something, whatever happens, you lose that tab and they go away. Now, historically, all of them are gone. And that's a huge friction point. That's a bad user experience.

I don't really think that's debatable. are gone and that's a huge friction point that's a bad user experience i don't really think that's debatable um and then as for as for i get you think it is better for the user again i don't really i don't really think that's debatable it it is everything that uh you know whatever bits or whatever other thing is it is a way of interacting with the show you know you can have a little thing come up or whatever um and if you don't want the thing in the mail you can just buy a gift card like if you just want to throw money at the screen then like i guess you can do that we we have gift cards um and i mean i'm about to i'm about to have a super hot take here. I had someone criticize us for the lowest barrier of entry for merch messages being the $10 gift card

because that's the lowest value of gift card on LTT Store. And I had typed up the thing. I decided not to send it, but I guess I'm going to say it now live on the show is that $10 threshold shouldn't be a problem. If you don't have $10 of disposable income, you should not be throwing it at me. Don't do a merch message. Yeah.

Yeah. Plain and simple. If you happen to need something and we have a high quality version of that thing you happen to need, by all means, send in a merch message. But if $10, if money is that tight for you that you need it to be $5 instead of $10. We don't want it. I don't want it. Yep. All right.

Dan, hit me with one more and then we'll do a couple more topics and then we'll go into more of the like merch message Q&A towards the end of the show. Oh, yeah, sure. the show oh yeah sure um on the same sort of vein of our high quality products what is your process of selecting a supplier for a new or existing lttstore.com merch oh yeah sure i mean well one of the there's a lot of different ways you can kind of tackle it so uh with the backpack for example uh we are not working we are we are, we can communicate directly with the actual manufacturer, but we are working through a firm that facilitates these kinds of products. So they have their own kind of like factory network and they helped us out a lot with the durability, material selection.

Like we were not, I don't know, whatever the, whatever the way of using the word hubris is to, to describe this. We're, we're not egotistical enough to think that somehow we can just walk into a completely new, uh, product category and imagine that we're somehow going to absolutely nail it on the first try without some help. So we worked through a third-party firm. So in that case, it was, you know, we found someone who had the relationships and had the capabilities to help us bring it to market. In the case of the screwdriver, for example, it was pretty similar, but then ended up being different because of the way that the relationship between our partner and their factory broke down during the process, which we outlined in more detail in the video on the making of the screwdriver.

we kind of reached out to pretty much every water bottle manufacturer we could find until we laid out our specs. So it's kind of like an ODM job. So do you know the difference between OEM and ODM? No, I've actually never heard of ODM. Oh, okay. So OEM, or original equipment manufacturer, is basically where a factory builds a product for someone else to slap their label on and sell.

That is an OEM product. An ODM product is where you go to the manufacturer who makes said products, and you go, okay, what you have is pretty okay, but here are my specs, and we need you to build it to this standard. So the vast, vast majority of what is on lttstore.com would be ODM work from the manufacturers. So they have a base product.

You wanted some changes to it. Yeah. So like plushies, for example, they make plushies. They don't make a Linus shaped one. That makes sense. Obviously. Right. Why would they?

Yeah. Like you're not. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense obviously right why would they yeah like you're not yeah yeah that makes sense so you didn't you didn't just rebadge a product no but you also didn't make a new manufacturing facility for a product no you worked with manufacturing facility to make similar things and just got them to adapt it to what you want yeah and a lot of the times um you know it's it not everything comes from under one roof right right like even something as simple as a lot of the times, you know, it's not everything comes from under one roof, right? Like even something as simple as a pair of underwear, right? There's they're going to have to bring in elastics from somewhere else. Getting this this plastic free packaging involved finding a source for plastic free packaging that will also keep it safe and shipping, etc, etc. Like we're trying to move completely away from plastic infree packaging that will also keep it safe in shipping, et cetera, et cetera. Like, we're trying to move completely away

from plastic in our packaging. So what I'm trying to say is that when everything you're building is custom, you know, even down to the composition of this, the, I don't want to get it wrong, and our first- generation labels are really bad uh that's something we're improving so i actually can't read it so you know what it doesn't matter the point is the the fiber blend of like our custom shirts was a painstaking process that's

why it takes us so long all right why don't we do a couple more topics here? All right. Oh, there's an LTX 2023 update. We have an FAQ now. We have safety policies. Do we have, do we have a contact?

We don't yet have a date that we're going to be reaching out to LTX 2020 VIP ticket holders, but they are saying very soon uh ask us questions via the form on the faq page or by emailing info at ltx expo.com there you go all right so we have we have support now which is pretty cool uh maybe don't everyone message support your question at once maybe assume someone else will do it and it'll be added to the FAQ sometime in the next week or two. We do not have a team of eight people working on support for LTX at this time, given

that the Expo is still almost six months out. We do have Expo sponsors and partners that we can share publicly. Corsair, The Gaming Stadium, Kanto, Memory Express, MSI, NZXT, Seasonic, and Secret Lab. the gaming stadium kanto memory express msi nzxt c sonic and secret lab those guys cool if there are partners who want to exhibit or work with us reach out to

partner at ltx expo.com heck yeah all right oh i need to talk about the new angel investment disclosure so i had talked recently about how there was a nas product that i was really excited about the future of um i have a couple more things to share uh so first of all is that based on you guys being overwhelmingly supportive of it, I really don't think that I've allowed the float plane sponsorship to affect our content in any meaningful way. I obviously daily drive a float plane laptop. I obviously want them to succeed. But, okay, I mean, hit me. I just didn't know we were making laptops.

We are? Video players, video website is hard enough no no no no no i'm not making laptops no i've invested in flow up oh it's a big endeavor if you want me to do it man i'll figure it out i'm just saying it's hard and we already do a lot of hard stuff framework apparently i can't even remember what company i'm invested in so i got i mean i'm invested in that one too so it's all kind of the same to me yeah yeah um anywho yeah i don't i i i sincerely do not believe i have allowed it to affect my laptop coverage frankly most days i don't think of it at all even when i am sitting down like evaluating a laptop i don't i don't necessarily remember unless i look at the laptop and i go wow that seems like

really anti-consumer or really anti-right to repair i wish it was more like framework who i'm invested in right like that it's kind of an afterthought for me. Yeah. But this one I think is even more cut and dried just because it's a category of product that we don't really cover to the same degree. So it's NAS software. And the bottom line is that enterprise NAS solutions, yeah, they have their place. But current operating systems tend to assume

that the person managing and configuring the server is an IT expert. And not like enthusiast who's like into it, but someone who actually has some training or has done extensive research. They can be frustrating and inaccessible to small creators, consumers, prosumers, and enthusiasts. creators uh consumers prosumers and enthusiasts so the goal with this project is to design an intuitive and accessible home server solution for all users uh the new company has they describe themselves as an impressive team i love you guys they have a team for sure um i'll i i look forward to being impressed you call your team world class i do my team is world class sometimes they even get the pee in the toilet without getting it on the seat.

I consider that to be quite world-class. Bit of an inside joke. Anywho, you know what? Fine, I'll bite. The new company has an impressive team headed by two longtime tech veterans who recently completed an eight-year stint at Unraid, where they were responsible for modernization

in the form of implementing Docker and virtual machines, GPU pass-through, and rebranding and marketing, respectively. We're not going to get too far into the weeds for now, but I am officially their angel investor, and you can expect some updates in the future. I'm actually excited for this. Yeah, I'm really excited. Have you ever met those guys? oh okay yeah cool all right well okay the video call okay yeah like way back in the day they're they're cool enough that um i don't even have a proper legal document for my shares and they already have the check so either i just got ripped super hard it'll be pretty epic or um or these

guys are super chill and and i'm right about that and this is going to be awesome there really is no middle ground here i think oh no yeah cool uh What else we got to talk about today? Oh, oh, oh, thank goodness. There's a new HomePod. Now with temperature and humidity sensors for smart home. I thought they were done with these. I thought so, too. But no, it's a second-gen HomePod.

It's $50 less than the first-gen starting price at $300 US. It has fewer tweeters and fewer mics, which is but it adds uwb and thread so you can so it has like that um that like location location chip which uh could be actually really neat like if you had home pods all over your house because you're a mega baller and then you have your iphone it could like know where you are and like play music you're farther away it could like know where you are and like play music you're farther away it could like make it louder or something i don't know that they'll ever implement anything like that but theoretically they could um the homepod mini also secretly included the humidity and temperature sensors so it will be updated to activate them so that's cool

adding features to a smart home product instead of removing them i mean i guess i support this i'm not that into um hidden sensors and things that are not disclosed yeah i mean you know dan just leaves he's gone he walked right off i mean if he's anything like me he probably has to go peepee at this point because we've been on the show for quite a while it has been a long time um anyway there's some also other more different new apple products um there's m2 pro and max and they're faster and there's like some macbooks and some mac minis that have those in them i guess that's pretty cool this is a pretty quiet announcement i think we got our hands on a couple of them i don't even know if we're going to cover these things on ltd though we we just we tend to be

so late on them that by the time we cover them the the conversation's sort of over so we'll probably just hit them on short circuit yeah sorry it's lower quality content but you guys don't want the in-depth stuff apparently because you don't watch it so i guess whatever um and then uh we'll definitely cover them on mac address eventually um you know they'll they'll get around to it and then in the future once the lab is all set up we'll be able to like really pump this stuff out but in the meantime i just don't think it's feasible on ltd we've got too much else going on in other apple news apple tv requires a separate apple device to accept the terms of service.

This week, Twitter user at HugeLGUpf posted a picture of their Apple TV, which was inoperable because it required the user to accept the terms and conditions agreement on a separate device using an up-to-date copy of iOS. using an up-to-date copy of iOS. I have talked extensively about this kind of j*** from Apple. Oh, I'm sorry. You haven't purchased enough of our products. Well, I hope you don't expect the ones you did buy to function.

Ha ha! Maybe next time you should be more rich. I was actually hoping this was going to come up from the wheel. Because I was really interested how this was going to go if someone had to try to defend it. Every time

it was spanned by either of us. I was just going to go straight after poor people. That was my plan. I was going to be like, well, they should get more money then. That's a tent. That's a tent. That's a tent.

And boom. Now we know. Got him. Oh, man. I mean, I've talked about this so much in the past. As a daily driver user of one, and exactly one, Apple product, the AirPods Pro 2s, or are they called Pro 2s pro i don't even remember whatever the second gen airpods pros i can't keep track of their naming crap i am also a user of one and

exactly one apple product and it is the first gen just straight up airpods so as a user of one apple product i have found myself extremely frustrated at the way that i am treated. I'm treated as a second class citizen. There is no, there is literally no way for me to update the firmware of my product. In the case of the first gen AirPods, that was apparently a bit of a bullet dodge, given that they nerfed the active noise cancellation. But in the case of the second gen AirPods, I haven't seen any reason to believe that that would be a benefit. And the fact that there is no way to plug that device because they don't explicitly say that it is not supported on Android or Windows devices. And it does, in fact, work just fine. Okay, so then would you consider not providing firmware updates to be supported?

I don't know. I don't know. Seems pretty BS to me and the so the only way to update your firmware is to be paired to an app to an iphone to have it nearby and to have them both be charging and sleeping essentially and then it will just happen automagically that's not an acceptable answer and i mean apple knew that once upon a time back in the days of the ipod they built itunes for windows because they understood when you bought an ipod you expect ipod yep um someone in flow plane chat said that they're an apple employee and that this is a bug, but I don't believe them.

I believe them. I just don't believe that it's a high-priority bug. I think that... If there's no public confirmation, it's not a high-priority bug. Yeah, I don't know, man. I think that this is one of those... This is also one of those bugs that comes about from tunnel vision.

Like, this is a bug that exists because that's not a bug there'll be a lack of a feature because the no no i mean the product is developed in an environment where there's an assumption there's it's kind of like okay i had a really awkward encounter in a bathroom once oh my okay wow i go a bunch of ways once oh my okay wow i go a bunch of ways i i this this man was um at the sink to wash his hands in the bathroom and he got all soaped up and put his hands under the sink and like it didn't come on and he was like trying to figure out if there was like a manual button somewhere. He's like getting right up to it. And he goes, he kind of turns to me, he goes, bro, it must be broken or something along those lines. And he kind of like is on his way walking out.

And I go, oh, man, I don't know. I put my hands under the sink. It immediately works. Why? Skin color? Yeah. Yikes. because he was black yeah and i'm looking at it going that's brutal that's a bug oh yeah bad bug yep that's not like oops that's like we literally only ever considered that white skin might go under this sensor. That's brutal. Big yikes, right? And honestly, I see a lot of this

in Apple's product development is they just have these complete and utter to the point where it has to be intentional blind spots. Yeah, yeah. What? Doesn't everyone have an iPhone? So this screen would have come up. And remember, this is a big company, right?

It's not like one person worked on the updater or the terms and conditions update flow for this, right? So this would have come up for many people at some point. And they all would have gone, oh, okay, so I can use my iPhone for this right so this would have this would have come up for for many people at some point and they all would have gone oh okay so i can use my iphone for this and no one at any point thought what if i don't have an iphone that's what happened so yeah it's a bug yeah it's probably an accident but you still suck yeah like that doesn Like that doesn't make it better. Obviously, this is not as bad as that sensor, right? But it also is really bad.

Because what if your reason for not being able to have an iPhone is your socioeconomic position? What if you got an Apple TV as a gift and this is just a giant F you for not being able to afford more that's not cool either right so yeah not cool not cool not even a little yeah maybe that's

why Tim Cook's salary got cut could be it anywho I think that was kind of all there was to say about that oh alex has a note in here though i really hate that with apple tv plus the service not the device uh the video quality settings are horrific unless you're watching on an apple device yeah yeah like that's the kind of thing man like why is that necessary yeah back when apple used to make their keynotes only watchable on apple devices until after it's like what you don't want to sell to people who don't already have one what like what kind of next level living up inside your own rectum

universe do you exist in like what is your problem you know like it's not even it's not even that they're outside of their their rights to do that they can but they're that's just this whole thing to do like just why ew yeah why would i why would i buy anything from you why would i even talk to you you know anyway speaking of crazy things to do or alternative things to do wyoming plans to phase out evs weird lots of other places are planning to phase out gas-powered vehicles the wyoming legislature passed a resolution to eliminate all sales of new evs by 2035 legislators justified this move based on potential pollution from battery waste ending up in landfills and the importance of Wyoming's oil and gas sector. Beyond that, they say that Wyoming

is simply too empty and underpopulated to ever need EVs. Because there is only limited EV infrastructure, consumers should be banned from buying them state senator brian bonner good good nice recovery good save brian bonner the bill's sponsor describes it as tongue-in-cheek but a serious issue that deserves discussion okay well it's still a bill the the bill is purely symbolic and has no effect on the legal status of i'm genuinely confused it's it resolution though okay not a law so it's like so it's kind of it's kind of like when when a country like uh creates a resolution that they will you know reduce climate change by x amount it's a goal it's a it's a new year's resolution it's

yes got it nothing will happen nothing will change yeah okay it was mostly included because it was one of our topics for defending the indefensible got it um i don't know you know what this is another thing that i've had some really good sort of conversations with yvonne about where she kind of goes, you know, for her, I really like her sort of analysis of how polarization has gotten out of hand, because it's a behavior that she's noticed in herself and in me over the years, when we will when we'll argue, you know, when we are when we are legitimately taking up two different sides of an issue. And she says, yeah, you know, what I have a tendency to do is when I feel like the other side of the argument has gone so far away from the truth, which often lies somewhere

in the middle, is that I feel like I need to compensate. You know, it's kind of like how if you've got uh if you've got a parent who's super uh you know angry all the time and abusive the other one might feel pressure to try to make up for it whereas if both took a more balanced approach that might actually be healthier for the child and in the same way if if two sides of an issue were to to attempt to see eye to eye on it rather than be sort of lured into these farther and farther extreme positions, we might have a chance of actually having a constructive conversation. Because the reality of it is that the upcoming avalanche of battery e-waste is a legitimate problem. And how we harvest the minerals required to manufacture them is also like super deplorable. And where they're coming from is a legitimate problem.

The defense of the oil and gas sector is absolutely not a defensible reason for bringing it up yeah they're deplorable too and like just because you don't like parts of one thing doesn't mean that you need to be 100 aligned with everything on the other side and yada yada yeah so that's um that's all i have to say about that. Batteries are a huge problem. We used to actually talk about this on WAN Show fairly often because I think probably around two years ago, it felt like every few months we'd hear some rumor about a new battery technology. Do you remember this? Yeah. I mean, they're still coming.

I mean, my Google News feed is full of them. Yeah, all the time. Yeah. This one's going to be a thousand miles and blah, blah, blah, and it'll be perfectly recyclable. Yeah, all the time. Yeah. This one's going to be a thousand miles and blah, blah, blah, and it'll be perfectly recyclable. Yeah, where is it? The main thing we need is just something that doesn't require the same materials. Like, the materials required for current high-end batteries is, like, very problematic.

What? Current high-end batteries? Okay, never mind. I know that's actually pretty good. Okay. But, yeah, I don't know. That's a huge problem. I mean, that's a big part of

the argument for hydrogen fuel cells right is that they're supposed to be um well essentially they're supposed to just run on why i i got that energy blah blah etc i know i get it um but we can't we can't reach an optimal solution if we aren't willing to at least consider the concerns of the other party yeah now that's not to say that every concern from the other party is valid also fair um and that that makes it very challenging maybe that makes it very challenging right yeah um what is valid is uh google's move to make the Stadia controller usable. Not so dead. Yeah, after Stadia goes the way of the Dodo.

They released a self-service tool to enable Bluetooth on Stadia controllers. Probably should have just supported it in the first place, but hey, cool. Bluetooth must be enabled before December 31st, 2023. That's weird. Why? Okay. While Stadia was compatible with most third-party controllers, the rationale for the Stadia controller was that it could connect directly to Google servers via Wi-Fi,

reducing latency. Super cool. But it won't do that anymore. It'll just be Bluetooth, which is, I guess, also fine. I think we can kind of switch over to some merch messages here. Should we do that? Yeah. All right, let's get into it.

I've got one here. Oh, I know that we've already done. Okay, this one's from Austin. Hey, I just wanted to bring... Wow, Austin, Texas? The whole state. Hey, I just wanted to bring up that I'm currently working at a fiber-to-home ISP that is bringing

10 gig to residential in California at a reasonable price. Some of my co-workers claim that it's not necessary. What are your thoughts? It's not necessary. Yeah. I want it. What the heck are you going to do with it? Have it. What are you going to connect

to? I? Have it. What are you going to connect to? I just want it. Like, I actually, no. I actually think this should have been on the defend the indefensible wheel because it is an indefensible position to say that you could need 10 gig internet at home today. So your poorly secured IoT device can just just like ddos the world i mean honestly though um like you could okay let's let's go through the arguments right so that you could um have lots of people there well realistically you probably live in a single family dwelling

you said it's residential so no no actually the number might not be lots of it might be lots of people but it's not going to be like an office building. The vast majority of the services that you connect to, A, will not even have one gigabit of available uplink bandwidth to you. And B, especially for things like web browsing, are more likely to be limited by DNSups what then by the actual transfer speed okay number three let's say you sail the high seas hard okay at that speed crashing waves you are going to be spending you will not be able to work enough hours to afford the hard drives that you are going to need to contain all this data. Everyone so far that's saying that they want it

says just because. No one has a reason. Well, I get it. Because when we got a 10 gig connection here, that was why I did it. Yeah, I mean, it's sick. But like, yes, it's completely... Okay, but...

We have a hundred people here now. So... Yeah, we might actually use a lot of it. Yeah. Yeah, finally! Wasn't the lot of it. Yeah, finally. Wasn't the question... Yeah, the thing was claims that it's not necessary. Of course it's not necessary.

Yeah. Yeah. Just put it in anyway. Sorry, Austin. Are you guys actually opposed to being tech forward right now? This is A-prime. I'm sorry. This is the I like waffles, but you hate pancakes argument.

That is stupid. That is not what we said. We said it's not necessary. Luke and Linus hate the internet. And I'm not saying don't lay the fiber. All we were saying is it's not necessary. By all means, let's get ready. Let's do it.

Eventually we'll be able to you know what stream 3d model files into whatever who knows i don't know hot take yeah hot take we will never need a 10 gigabit home internet it's a bad take why would anybody i didn't say it was bad i said it was hot okay it's hot because okay can i can i the amount of water are you gonna give me a chance here is not very much. Are you going to give me a chance here? We need to have our timed segments. Can I talk?

Sure. All right. Okay. What are the primary drivers of bandwidth consumption now? Video? Yeah. I mean, yes. Right?

This guy knows. Look at his shirt. Yeah. Primary driver of bandwidth. Okay's like netflix and stuff right now we are at 4k right 3d coming back probably not okay we're at 4k we are at color depths that while not um uh we're at dynamic ranges in color depths that are not maxing out the capabilities of the eye, but we're starting to talk about the capabilities of the eye. Fair enough? Okay. Sure.

Okay. For resolution, right? We could go further, but at what is considered to be and even going back to like you know the the early days of of projection theaters at what is what is uh a ratio of your field of vision at what is a ratio of your field of vision that is considered optimal to reduce motion sickness okay there is a solid argument to be made that 8k is unnecessary and certainly anything beyond it will be triply unnecessary counterpoint uh yeah yeah of course the type of data being consumed may change in the future you're saying we will never need it? Well, no, no. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

Is that what you said? I am saying we will never need it. But what I'm trying to lay out is sort of the groundwork for... Sure, but you're only talking about video. And you're talking about 2D frame video on a screen. So far. Okay.

But I haven't gotten there yet. All right. Okay. We need timers. If 8K is realistically, as far as we're going to get before we have filled up too much of our field of vision and is no longer discernible anyway, then my argument is that we are kind of reaching a point where we can at least see the final destination. Sort of. destination sort of and that could be two 8k images in stereoscopic 3d through a vr headset or through some kind of holographic uh you know projection system or whatever else you should know

that it's not just resolution though no no absolutely that's part of it that's not really that strong of an argument however however i mean we already we already again though we know However, I mean, we already, again, though, we know what that might look like. So we are approaching the limits of what the eye can discern. And we're sitting at, like, the highest bitrate Blu-rays or something in the neighborhood of 100 megabit. So if we say, okay, 100 megabit times 4 is 400 megabit, times 2 is 800 megabit for a stream that is now stereoscopic and let's let's throw let's go to gigabit okay to say okay we're gonna need uh we'll need more color depth than we have today it might come in bursts when you're buffering and stuff like that but even that isn't really enough to fill that pipe not even close yeah not even a significant fraction not even a little now you could make

the argument for a five user household um all consuming that at once all consuming that at once i would counter that point by saying i pretty much promise you that that experience for at least in our lifetimes is not going to be something that all five of those users are consuming in much the same way that right now you might have five people watching netflix in the house i promise you they're not all at 4k there that's my argument why are they not all at 4k you just think one of them is on like a junkier device? Someone's probably on their phone. So not every person has like a TV, basically. Has a top of the line experience. I'm saying that-

So you don't have five theater rooms. The vast majority of households- Or family rooms or whatever. Might have at most one of these, this peak tier experience, yeah. And then you have phones or laptops or computers or whatever else. That's my argument.

Yeah, so my thing I, would be new alternate experiences. So yes, I do think we would have a hard time getting there in flat frame video player type of content. But I made an offhand comment earlier about streaming 3D models. I wasn't describing it very well. But that's sort of what I'm talking about. Sure. Really, really high poly count, complicated things being live streamed instead of rendered locally.

Game stream style to your house in more complex things that might not exist yet in regards to how we consume content could start hitting bandwidth levels pretty hard. Do I think it's super likely? Not really. A lot of the market is going towards, actually, while we're increasing this, oh, you can get 10 gig to your house, a lot of the market is going towards making it so that less data is being sent out.

Yeah, that's exactly where I was going to go to because at the end of the day, the higher, the bigger the pipe between the service and the user the more data was being stored and as we talked about in the video yeah in the video we did recently why youtube should charge for 4k um basically the the trend that we were looking at was the way that storage is not getting cheaper anymore and you don't just like plug ethernet cables into hard drives either you need systems to run this data transfer to put things in packages send them out handle all that now we

will still get faster compute we will still get specialized encoders and decoders. But those will exist to minimize that data storage burden, to minimize that data transmission burden. No service, no company anywhere is looking to just use up more infrastructure. Let's go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not happening. Yeah. So that's my argument. i'm saying it now this might

be one of those i don't see bitcoin going anywhere moments 10 years from now when everyone needs 10 gig to have the best gaming experience um but you know what's funny is i might have even made a stronger argument for 10 gig back when um back when we were back when game streaming was in its infancy and we couldn't really see the trajectory of it as it is now i i just it it's pretty clear that to keep latency down compute has to stay down data rates have to stay down and we are not going to see like like an uncompressed you know 4k game stream product not not in every any reasonable amount of time yeah uh this is a tangent thing i just want to say it before i get mobile gnome on the forum and also in floatplane chat uh mentioned today is the fifth anniversary of the streak of WAN,

so a WAN show never being missed at all. Oh, really? And it is the 123rd episode in a row of Linus and Luke. Nice! Yeah. We knew we had a streak. We just weren't sure.

We didn't know what it was. Yeah, we didn't know how long it was. So it's over two years then. Yeah. Nice! Yeah. We knew we had a streak. We just weren't sure. We just didn't know what it was. Yeah, we didn't know how long it was. So it's over two years then. Yeah. Nice! Yeah. I'm not going to be the one to end it. Me neither.

Clearly. Yeah, he's on vacation right now. No, not today. Oh, not today. Today I was on. Oh, okay. All right, all right, all right. It was up until yesterday.

Got it. Yeah. All right, so he's technically back at work. That's good. Yeah. All right. So it's technically back at work. That's good. Yeah. All right, Dan, hit us. Okay. This one is from anonymous in the future.

Would you create an ad on like honey, but warns us when we check out trying to buy an item that you have tested with labs to not live up to their claimed expectations. That's a pretty cool idea um i could see man i could see a third-party websites getting super mad like especially if we got into the business of it like selling those products or whatever else like a competitor basically like warning customers on your website that you shouldn't buy something from them that seems maybe that's even man how would we yeah i think we couldn't do it for segments that we yeah for that we participate in but in ones that we didn't or maybe if we just

never did that then that could be a pretty cool alternative business model for it where we basically just go hey um here's a link to add one with our affiliate code obviously from this very same site um that we that we recommend that's pretty cool i don't know that labs is going to want to make such concrete individual product recommendations though so that's a challenge we might be able to suggest possible alternatives but um we could maybe use the commonly compared against tool yeah yeah but like oh man especially for so many products are down to personal taste right like i'm headphones are one of the classic ones because that's uh one of the one of the product categories that we're going to be best set up for very early on print on a

certain sound signature. Yeah. And then just like. Or you might have a weird shaped dome. Yep. And you just like, you know, that one's honestly better for you. So we would always need to be really careful about making a solid recommendation on someone else's website where the return is going to be their liability and not our own. Right.

So there's like kind of ethical challenges there too. I don't know. We'd have to, we'd have to figure out the best way to deal with that yeah yeah okay hey guys recently just started my first full-time job in networking for a very large group kind of been chucked in the deep end any advice for dealing with the incredible information overload that comes with starting a new job in an unfamiliar field. Read the docs, man. Yeah, go for it. Go for it.

Go hard. Go hard. That's all I can really say. He said large organizations, so hopefully there's docs. If there aren't docs... Networking stuff. Wow. If there aren't docs...

Stay there long enough to get good experience and look for a new job thanks i don't know yeah stay long enough that it looks good on the resume and not bad yeah yeah yeah yeah um or just press a huge amount of importance that you need to make them and be the one to champion the creation of them because you you need that yeah creating systems is almost always a higher position in the uh in the org chart than just following created systems almost always i got a couple of uh messages in the chat here that i want to um kind of highlight here recon messenger messenger says speaking of headphones what headphones are linus and luke using uh they're at uh something m50x they suck they're uncomfortable uh there was this whole trendy thing for a while where everyone was like super hard on for these

and at the time i didn't understand it i still don't understand it they were always commodity like i think the argument was they're like used in recording studios yeah they're used in recording studios because they're basically disposable yeah if you're gonna break them you don't get the good ones you had a box of these you just you got musicians you just throw them at them and they wear them and if you destroy them, then you just give them another one. Yeah, so someone... They're also close back so they're nice and isolating.

Someone grabbed on to that little factoid that these are used in recording studios, completely missed the context, had absolutely no idea what headphones are supposed to sound like. And was like,

F***. Sick. Yeah. Let's go. Do they do the... No. Yeah. Yes, they do.

They do? Yeah. They're here because they are cheap and disposable. And we needed four pairs for the They're Just Movies podcast and stuff. And they were cheap. They're good enough. Yeah. And then in the float plane chat from Jake, Luke doesn't put his camera up during our twice a week stand-ups.

We can hear him chewing, but he blames the birds. How would you like to respond to that? I just... You've been outed, sir. Everything I do that's wrong is the bird's fault um no i don't know i can i can put it on jake okay geez i don't have a dog that i can cuddle like you do in yours all right i love it okay all right dan hit us okay this one's from ari uh people who say your merch is overpriced have never worn it thanks for making nice quality

clothes for my question what fictional technology do you wish you could review oh man this is a cool one how much fun would it be to review like the Star Trek beam me up

whatever those are called teleporters or whatever like oh no no no the food fabricators oh yeah beam me up, whatever those are called, teleporters or whatever. Like, oh, no, no, no, the food fabricators. Oh, yeah. That's the kind of technology that is going to go through a period of being absolutely horrible. Atrocious. Yeah, it'll have a short period of being horrible,

a long period of being kind of acceptable, and then they're going to get really good and things are going to get really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, just like,

you just like grind up cockroaches into it and it like spits out a burger and you're going to be like, how did they do this? It's going to be awesome. My brain immediately went to lightsabers. There's material stuff. Cause like, how does the grip feel?

Style, stuff like that. There's a lot of style involved. Craftsmanship. But then there's also like crystal choice and like, y yada yada yada yada i just i don't know my brain immediately went to that all right nerds the lot of you uh this one's from james with multiple lmg branches eg labs would you consider creating a team to investigate shady practices by tech companies for example activision's broken anti-cheat that bans innocent players and their lack of response slash appeal process. I mean, I think that in the longer term, we obviously, yeah,

we want to cover the industry from every direction that we can. But I don't know that we would have a dedicated team just for shady practices. I think that you can expect to see, especially if TalkLinked and TechLonger see some success. I think you could expect to see us build out that team in order to do more content like that. TechLinked is our news, I was going to say news group, but it's not a news group.

That's a different thing. But that's kind of our news focused group right now. I don't know. I don't know. It's not a top priority on the roadmap. I think the next thing you're going to see from us is a Reacts channel, and the next things you're going to see after that are going to be more product-focused stuff as we build up the lab. Okay, and now I have a bit of an interesting one here.

Can you explain the need behind improving WAN Show? One big draw for me with WAN Show was the lack of gimmicky slapstick nonsense like the spinning wheel. I'd love to understand your thoughts driving it. I thought this was pretty mean, but also probably quite an interesting discussion. I spoke with a few of the other team members yesterday, and it's kind of nice. What? You spoke with a few of the other team members yesterday, and it was kind of nice? Yeah, hearing Linus's maybe thoughts behind improving uh oh okay the one show that's stance for a long time has been

don't touch it um including with the thumbnails for the one show being kind of generally extremely old age youtube and they've like never grown or gotten better and people have offered to like hey maybe we should make better thumbnails for it and it's always just been like no um so i'm i'm a little bit surprised by the change i'm surprised that you're saying that you like that the show has never been like gimmicky or jank because i think that's all the show has ever been um i guess not technically gimmicks in this form but like it's never been professional it's a little gimmicky i guess sure it's not slapstick though and it creates very interesting discussions is the show in general not just kind of slapsticky we've made slapstick

that has a kind of specific definition does it i genuinely don't know what it is i guess i thought it was just like like slapstick would be like visual gags and stuff like that. Oh, okay. Yeah. And this would be a gimmick. That is a bit. For sure. I'm in listening mode right now, though. I mean, I'll give my two cents, but. I feel like we've been on a very good arc for a while. I think the beginning of that arc was probably the beginning of Merch Messages.

I don't know how it happened, but the show as a whole changed, not just the inclusion of merch messages. It's really long now. So that's interesting. Um, there's no shortage of content. I think that's a big part of it because of merch messages,

to be completely honest. Yeah. You guys make the show what it is because like the same thing happened to WAN show that happened to LZT where when when when linus and i first started way back in the day there was too much stuff to cover so we just covered the things that showed up at the door and there was always enough content and then over time the amount of things that showed up at the door reduced because the frenzy of tech being in a relatively early stage kind of stopped. And then it happened with phones and then that fell off.

And then it started becoming a situation where like, OK, well, there isn't enough new stuff to cover. So we have to create new content. So we started creating shows. We started creating different content types and experiments and whatever else. Building things that were more dependent on the personality rather than the product that we're covering. Yeah. So that changed over time. Similar thing happened to WAN Show where there used to be just this infinite pool of tech news that we could cover and we would just grab the best parts of it.

And over time, it got to the point where it's like, like wow there's really not a lot to talk about this week how do we make this interesting and we just started going off the rail more and then with merch messages you guys kind of throw us off the rail which i think is even more interesting um so i think we've been on a good track i don't see necessarily the need to change things when we've been on probably the best track that we've been on a good track. I don't see necessarily the need to change things when we've been on probably the best track that we've been on for a while. But I didn't mind the wheel. I thought it was interesting.

I think the wheel can't be an every week thing. No, it wouldn't be. Because it depends on there being topics that make sense to be on the wheel and it depends on there being enough of them um but i don't see anything against it i don't think working to make something better is a bad thing so yeah okay so i'll um thank you for having my I've typed up some of my things. That was sort of where I was going to land on. But I'll tell you some of the other things.

So I can tell you right now, the reason we've not changed Wanshow in the past is not because we haven't had ideas for how to make it better. It's because I'm cheap and Wanshow is the lowest possible priority thing to spend money on in the entire company wansho is literally at the very bottom of the totem pole i would rather i would rather pay for cleaning services for the year for every employee of the company than hire someone who's dedicated to Wanshow. That has happened.

That happened. Traditionally. I'm trying to explain what my position has been on Wanshow. Wanshow came about as a necessary evil. A filler. It killed two birds with one stone. Bird number one was it gave us some kind of foothold into live, which at the time, it wasn't clear to me how that was going to

evolve and how meaningful it was going to be, but it was a trend and it was something that was not going away and we needed some kind of presence in live. And I was like, okay, well, the easiest lowest hanging fruit at a time in my life when i have an

infant child and a fledgling company is q a so that's how it starts and then from q a well people just started asking about what's going on in the tech world so it's not that much of a leap to go from just trying to preemptively answer the questions that you would have had which is what's my take on x y or z in the tech world, right? So WAN Show serves that purpose. And then the second purpose it served was it was killing us trying to upload seven LTTs a week. So we made WAN Show to fill one of those upload slots.

And it was because it was live and because we branded it as a podcast, it was easy to sell to sponsors for, if not the same rates, at least a close enough rate compared to what we could charge for LTT videos that we could afford to not do an LTT video that day at only the cost of about an hour and a half of each mine in Luke's time, which so it was it was a very it was a very calculated move, the creation of WAN show. As for why it was a low priority to improve it. Well, it's because WAN show morphed into the one way that we can really engage with the community and kind of touch base with you guys on a weekly basis and to serve that purpose when show doesn't need a fancy set it doesn't need better lights it doesn't need 4k cameras it doesn't need really anything and we are not going to be more professional on the show so making the show more professional

doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense and could even contribute to making it seem less genuine so i have this thing that has kind of this ceiling for how much we can charge for it from a sponsorship standpoint so from like a business point of view i can invest more in it i will not get a return on it um and then from a personal point of view i was just like i don't know wansho's fun yeah and it's fun the way it is um however there are a few things that have prompted this uh this recent change so first of all i want to make it clear that our new wansho writer i guess i'll call it a writing position our new wansho writer's primary raison d'etre is not to create gimmicky nonsense. Their primary purpose is to make sure that the stories we have for the week are better fleshed out and more accurate. I think we are reaching

the point where there's just no excuse for us to get details wrong and honestly i think it's fair to say that the quality of while the titles might still be kind of inflammatory the quality of the of the way the topics are written out is better than what we've had in the past it's that yep i think it's i think it's been pretty balanced i think there's some areas where there could be some improvement but realistically this is the first week of actually preparing the doc for us so a great job um as for why i do want part of their job to be you know gimmicks and segments and stuff like that well because i think they're fun um there's nothing wrong with trying new things like luke said and a big part of the inspiration for these segments is the success of the merch messages

segment you guys might not have realized it but we totally created this gimmicky way to interact with the show that has actually ended up making the show a more fun for us like i never would have even wanted to do a three-hour one show before but now i kind of enjoy it um like at a certain point i'm like i'm hungry now and i kind of have to pee but like yeah you know like there's a limit right but but i but i enjoy it more and that's why the show is longer um and i know you guys enjoy it more because i can see it in the analytics so it's working for both of us so let's do it yeah Yeah. So we're going to try stuff. And sometimes it'll land, and sometimes it'll be crap. And we won't do it again.

Hit me, Dan. Okay. Excellent. This is from Denver. Really? Yeah. The whole city. There's another one.

It's the best city in Denver. I need 10 gig for 321 backups you don't need it i want 4k 3d and want to move past the draconian 30 and 60 hertz paradigm that's not you say i want 4k 3d 4k 3d 120 000 hertz okay but you can want it but that doesn't make it exist. If you're going to watch that one video, you could just download it. My home internet is 40 gig. And other than transceivers, fiber is fiber, be it 1 gig, 10 gig, even 100 gig. Yes, but I never opposed building out fiber. I said you don't need a 10 gig. i don't know why this is so hard for

people but the thing we were talking about was if it was necessary for the user to have 10 gig in the home and i would also make the argument that if you are 321 backing up something with that kind of data requirements on a daily basis, that sounds like it is not home use. So while you are technically at a residential address, I am going to stand by my original statement. I'm going to say you are not a home user. There. We're talking about if it was necessary.

There's a bunch of uh which has to come first type of questions with this type of stuff where like if you wanted to build a service that needs those types of bandwidth requirements well no company's gonna do that if no one is able to receive that type of data so like we would need home users to be able to have things like 10 gig in place the the plans would need to be available um so that a company could make something that actually uses that whole pipe right so like it's not a bad thing to do it's just for the user it's not necessary right now that's all okay here's one from james hi linus i would like to go to ltx but my wife is giving birth to our firstborn my wife my wife i forgot he was gonna do that to our first

born in late march do you have any tips for traveling with a newborn and should i take my four-month son to ltx no no you would have to drive 14 hours to get to LTX. Nope. Just don't. I traveled with a newborn a couple times and it sucked every time. No one had fun. Come later. I'll see you next year. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry, man.

I wish I did have some tips for you. We're into potentials now. Okay, right. Roop. Sorry, there's okay so many i might have to just do these then because if i have to read them anyway then um okay anonymous says when you play beat saber do you feel that external tracking like with the valve index works better than internal tracking like with the quest 2 my sabers sometimes float away from my hand in the quest 2 so there are always going to be technical limitations when it comes to occlusion,

which is when your sensor and your object are occluded. That is, there's an object between them of some sort. You can make up a lot of ground with really accurate accelerometers and gyroscopes like Valve. Valve, excuse me. Meta does build into their controllers but those are inherently going to drift they they they do they must they will um so there's that you're always going to need to kind of snap them back to reality but there goes gravity you know um every once in a while like like like really a lot um external trackers especially for full

body tracking i mean i think they will always have an advantage whether that advantage is enough to justify the additional cost and space and wiring requirements maybe not maybe the next valve headset is going to make me regret drilling a bunch of holes in my rec room to put up lighthouses but um yeah so for full body tracking it's not really an option for me to use inside out for now because i have a sensor on my waist it sensors on my feet sensors on my hands and sensors on my head from a headset you're just not going to be able to see them all and maintain the natural movement for my avatar. But if I was not doing full body tracking, then yeah, I think an array could be built

that's good enough, even if the current stuff is not quite there yet, especially at the consumer level. Okay, I got another one. Hey, Linus and Luke, I usually watch the WAN show on Saturday mornings and wanted to thank you for the content. What's your favorite dad joke?

I think the best dad jokes aren't like fixed. I think they're just constant puns. Yeah, it's got to be people. Well, I mean, actually the social team asked me to tell a dad joke for a float plane exclusive. And I was like... You don't come

up with it on the spot yeah like i i constantly am telling dad jokes but it's because that's what like makes it a dad joke yeah my brain's just actually wired that way i have heard people that have like recitable dad jokes but i don't think that's very common i think most of them are just play on word yeah and what's funny about them is the way that you've gone and interpreted something that that person said 45 seconds ago and and like the oh i knew it was going to be something that just happened but i would not have gone there with it you know um i'm sorry i'm sorry i don't i don't have something i gotta i gotta address something in chat because people still don't understand

and that's okay, but I got to address it. What about when a game is a one terabyte download? What about when it is? Download it. If the game server is still incapable of actually sending you what your pipe is capable of receiving,

then it's irrelevant. And are they going to send you 10 gigs a second you what your pipe is capable of receiving, then it's irrelevant. And are they going to send you 10 gigs a second to just you? Yeah, not just you. To everyone who has a connection like that. Good luck. Ever? Maybe.

Foreseeable future. Near future. Near future, I seriously doubt it. Yeah, but I want it. Oh my gosh. You can want it oh my gosh you can want it we're talking about is it necessary no okay cool moving forward james asks linus do you code uh the answer is no sorry i just never i never learned and realistically i'm at a point in my life running the company with the kids blah blah blah where if i was gonna pick up something it'd I never learned. And realistically, I'm at a point in my life,

running the company with the kids, blah, blah, blah, where if I was going to pick up something, it'd probably be like a musical instrument or something at this point. Like, I just, I don't think that would be my next endeavor. I think I would probably want to learn enough to be dangerous, like just, you know, simple things like scripting. But then with ChatGPT being as powerful as it is, I mean, yeah, I guess I'd like to learn enough to be dangerous like uh just you know simple things like scripting but then

with chat gpt being as powerful as it is i mean yeah i guess i'd like to know enough to be able to like proofread like a chat i was just gonna say i think right now well okay not right now i think in the near future a more usable goal would be able to understand yeah being able to try to to read it even if i can't write it and debug things sure or at least this is why i'm i'm tripping right now is i don't necessarily think that you should be able to fix it but i think you should be able to understand why it's not working so you can ask chat gpt to fix it yeah because i've had code outputs from chat gpt that i've been like oh it's getting this error and i think it's because of this can you fix that and it'll be like yep and it'll actually do it so like that doesn't

really require a lot sure and as long as you are familiar with the tools and stuff and get it to do that then you'll be fine and i think there's a certain amount of like human nature that leads us to kind of take the easiest solution to a problem and for me the easiest solution to a coding problem is to go to one of the over a dozen like professional capable programmers that i have at my disposal now and say hey can you help me with this yeah um like learning that's a dangerous thing and i think that's where a lot of the kind of the stereotypical dumb know nothing executive kind of comes from is that when it's so much faster and your time is so so pressed um when it's so much faster easier and more efficient it's not efficient for you to learn things it's not efficient to learn yeah learning is super inefficient the good news for me is i get bored and

i get frustrated and like depressed when i'm not learning things so i'm just i'm sort of self motivated to keep doing it but if i wasn't if i didn't just have a joy of learning i feel like i'd already just be like kind of useless you know like i there like there is no reason for me to know anything about how cameras operate there is always someone to do it for me however when the pandemic shutdown came along what i discovered was that just because i i tend to be naturally curious i had actually absorbed enough that is it as good as our people who do it every day all day no of course not i'm not going to pretend it is but it was did the channel survive did we miss it i think so all right so clearly i managed to i managed to gain a serviceable enough knowledge that i was able to

set it up myself um and so i don't remember what the question was. No, I'm not going to learn to code, uh, because that's, um, it's something that I have almost no need to interact with on a daily basis. Whereas like cameras, I, I really do, even if I'm usually on this side of them and they're usually on the other side of them. Uh, the next one is for me. This this is question for luke what is your biggest struggle as a new dev after graduation i'm coming up on two years after school and i'm struggling to find a motivation to pursue learning slash projects on my own time due to life obligations uh well interesting question for me because a i didn't graduate and b um after school i was immediately doing things that had

nothing to do with software development at all um and also while i was in school i was doing a lot of things that had nothing to do with software development at all um so i don't know uh it doesn't sound like your problem is necessarily finding work or working it sounds like your problem is finding motivation to pursue learn learning and projects on your own time and or work-life balance and or work-life balance that is a totally separate question motivation is an interesting thing in its own right um i don't find motivation to be in my own personal experience and you're asking me so i'm going to answer it this way um and i don't find motivation to be in my own personal experience. And you're asking me, so I'm going to answer it this way. And I don't know if this is legit for everyone.

I don't know. I don't find motivation in what most people see from that or take from that word to be super useful to me personally. I find dedication or discipline to be super useful to me personally. Motivation seems like a kind of a cop out, a burst thing, right? And something that's only useful for a short period of time. Like you can just hope that you'll have it. Whereas if dedication is something you can control.

Yeah. So like you need to employ like discipline or something to make yourself do those things. If those are things that you need to do. Big if. You might not need to. You might just be able to go to work, do your job, go home and not do these types of things. You don't have to. I know it's very popular in the space and I'm not saying it's a bad thing to be super clear, but you don't have to do that stuff outside of work.

You don't need homework. You're now graduated. You could go to work, do your job, go home and not do it anymore. it anymore. But if you feel like you should, or if you want to for career advancement reasons or whatever, I would use what motivation you do have to set up a situation where you're able to use something like determination, discipline, those types of things to actually get that stuff done. those types of things to actually get that stuff done. That's it. I've kind of addressed this topic on WAN Show before,

and I hope I did it better this time. But yeah, like if you need to get something done, motivation is not the right thing, in my opinion, to look towards because it's a resource that definitely depletes, and you need to find more rigid things to be able to lean on. Or at least I do. Again, they asked me. Delta Bruggemann says, here's what ChatGPT had to say regarding 10 gigabit per second internet.

I was hoping someone would do this. First, it would enable multiple users in the household to engage in high band with activities simultaneously, such as streaming, 4K video, gaming, and teleconferencing without any lag or buffering. Second, it would enable faster download and upload speeds which would be beneficial for tasks such as working from home online learning and remote backups therefore it would be necessary therefore it would be necessary and chat gpt you can be confidently wrong yeah that's uh that's all we managed to prove there i'm afraid one out of ten there um nicholas b i watched pure living for life's video on their horrifying

cyberbullying story how can you to be an engaging relatable and successful youtuber while keeping your life private for from your community i mean i think that it wears on a lot of youtubers um i think that it can kind of that can kind of that pressure can kind it wears on a lot of YouTubers. I think that it can kind of, that can kind of, that pressure can kind of manifest in a lot of ways. You see ones that are like neurotic about maintaining their, their privacy. Like I know, I know of one that either did or does keep their face private that literally would not leave their house.

Like I spoke to this person and they had not left their house more than maybe twice in the last six months because they had a highly recognizable voice and were so concerned about maintaining that secrecy that they became essentially a shut-in. Yeah. And then you've got people that are you know put their entire lives online you know they're themselves their parents their kids

their you know their their pregnancies their births their deaths their you know whatever else right and they just kind of uh they just kind of embrace it um I think that both ways eventually burn you out and everything in between eventually burns you out. And you have to learn to kind of find a balance between sticking up for yourself, letting things roll off your back, like being sad sometimes getting mad learning to kind of get over that um yeah it's tough i don't know i mean like to be clear one of the things that i remind myself

constantly is like i chose this i could turn it off tomorrow i mean how how famous would i be in a year if i didn't upload a single video for a year not very like i i'm not famous famous i'm internet famous niche famous right like it's i went through this and i was still on wancho every week yeah the amount that i would get recognized walking around like plummeted really fast when i wasn't just constantly in videos yeah yeah so like that's the thing is uh there's that constant reminder that's um for me that's like yeah i could end this and that's encouraging and that's encouraging. Alexander says,

hey, excited about the Henley shirt and screwdriver. Thanks for being transparent about your products and how the company works. How do you guys come up with new products to work towards slash develop to sell an LTT store? I mean, sometimes it's just like I was looking through pictures of computer stuff in my gallery, like in my photo archive for an

upcoming Linus... Linus's team reacts to Linus's old computers. By the way, you should almost certainly be one of the reactors because you haven't seen most of the janky stuff I've done. I'm super down. Yeah. Anywho, I came across an image of

one of my daughters. Oh, here, can I borrow that for a sec? Okay, you know how these pillows often have a strap? I came across an image of one of my daughters while people were playing VR in the background wearing one of these like a VR headset. And I was like, oh my God, we should do a VR headset plushie. So we're going to do that now.

That's funny. So sometimes it's just like a flash of inspiration like that. Sometimes it's my ongoing, yeah, right? No, tell me something. Should it have plushie wands or no? I don't think so. Oh, but it's kind of like that. Yeah, what if you want to kind of pose it on a shelf

would you have the plushy wands next to it yeah actually i think so i was when i said no i was thinking about it more as a pillow sure i was like i feel like that'd be no it's not a pillow it's wearable more yeah it's like it's a it's kind of like then i feel like because yeah you'd hold the ones yeah yeah yeah um so anyway uh and then sometimes i'm just like really frustrated by the existing solution and i want a better just like really frustrated by the existing solution and i want a better one like i was so tired of the stupid snap-on bit storage i was like no no no no no there must be a better way this is ridiculous i want a new backpack i did want a new backpack i know i know i wanted a new backpack that one actually was really championed by bridget though

because like i wanted a new backpack and i was like willing to pay for a new backpack like the whole development of a new backpack um but i didn't have the confidence that we could that we could make it happen and she was like look let me try i'm like okay it's your funeral she was like super new at the time like yeah okay you can waste your time but like i'd really rather you were working on these things that have like a clear a clear path to a great roi and then backpack has outperformed probably everything else she ever did combined which which is i'm not saying that those other things were bad i'm just saying she was clear she made the right call good yeah yeah um christian says luke since you play tarkov and elder scrolls have you looked at darkened

darker yeah uh i haven't had enough time to jump into like the play tests and whatever else they've done recently um but yeah i mean you you kind of nailed it the the internet sphere of knowledge about me figured out that that would probably make sense for me and has just sent a deluge of information about it at me just various videos and google news things and whatever else have all hit my feeds um so i'm aware of it and i'm sure i'll try it out at some point but i haven't tried it out yet looks really interesting it's it's i suspect it's going to be one of those games that are just like perpetually in in beta um but i hope that it hits a stable release or a stable playable state at some point at the very least because i know right now it's

like kind of sometimes available and sometimes not i don't know yeah gregory asks hey linus will the lab have an api with clear rules uh that will allow us to make our own Chrome plugins? I mean, it really depends on what you would expect your Chrome plugins to do. No third party, whatever. That's a reference to earlier in the show. Yeah, I'm legitimately just not exactly sure what a third party plugin would do. Like, I mean, that shopping comparison one, yeah, it could be third-party.

I don't know. API access for, like, a data set is, like, a paid feature. From my point of view, like, if you are an individual user interacting with a website to learn about products or help you build a computer or whatever else, I'm of the mind that that should be basically free. We can give you a big solid maybe. Yeah, advertisements, maybe affiliates almost certainly.

Like there are ways we're going to monetize that kind of interaction. Like there are ways we're going to monetize that kind of interaction, but I don't, I don't want us to basically just go, you know, Oh, you who needs to build a computer once every five years, we expect you to pay a monthly subscription. Like, I, I, I just don't really, I, that doesn't seem like a viable, um, way of engaging with, with users. if you are yeah if you're if you're building it like some kind of comparison engine tool that integrates into Amazon like I mean I don't think anyone would even expect that kind of access to the database to be free so I I don't know I don't know what this is going to look like yeah solid maybe uh last one oh there's two umaleb asks have you considered adding a gym for employees to use we technically have one it doesn't have equipment in it uh that could change that'd be great um basically what i was kind of thinking is when the real badminton center opens there would be no reason to have like a badminton court in the gym

so i was kind of thinking of just like shoving some equipment in it i'm deeply concerned about liability though liability is a big problem because i have no way of supervising and knowing if people are using it properly and if someone like like you know breaks their knee the wrong way or whatever else in it i i there's there's no first aid attendant there's no um so it's possible it won't happen there are there have to be ways because there are 24-hour fitness centers where you just like badge into them and there's nobody working there at the time i don't know what the way is the way might be that they're just rolling the dice could be sometimes that actually is the answer could be yeah i hope it's not because this sounds amazing and i would personally love it and use it all the time um but like i use it as it is every week liability is

terrifying but a lot of the stuff that i i yeah doing not everyone could you'd need equipment i get it yeah um and you would need equipment that would be sketchy from a liability standpoint and even if i went with someone because it's like something i would want to do with a spotter or whatever they're not in a uh they're not going to be like hired by your gym to be responsible for whatever so like there's still liability it doesn't help the liability problems at all actually yeah um so you know what i think i'm kind of talked out of it no no it's not happening sorry we'll make that a uh maybe so thanks for tuning into the land show we'll see you again next week same bad time same bad channel bye i'm running to the bathroom

i'm dead yeah how long was this show four hours four hours four hours we're at okay all right three hours 52 minutes uh this show is brought to you by thorium audible and bessie i'm sorry in the bathroom four hours 52 minutes thorium not thorium thorium i'm sorry thorium i'll say your name again thorium uh 52 minutes 15 seconds beautiful ring genuinely