The WAN Show - NVIDIA Thinks You're RICH - WAN Show September 23, 2022

Starting point is 00:00:00 What is up? How y'all doing? Happy Friday and welcome to the WAN Show. We've got a bunch of great topics for you today, actually. In the biggest news from this week, NVIDIA figures you are made of money. Just tons of it. Just lots of it. Coming out of everywhere. It's coming out of every orifice simultaneously. You have money diarrhea, money vomit, money ear drips.

Starting point is 00:00:24 Yeah. Yeah, you know, money ear drips. Yeah. Yeah, you know, money. You have coin tears. Money sinus infection. Yeah, coins probably aren't worth enough. Getting all over everything. So we'll be talking about their announcement for the RTX 4000 series of graphics cards, along with some alternatives that might cost you a little bit less money.

Starting point is 00:00:44 We've got some ideas. In other, you have too much money and not enough brains news. Logitech just launched the, what is this stupid thing called? The GCloud Gaming

Starting point is 00:00:59 Handheld. I have, I think, at least a single use case for it, so we'll talk about that later. I will fight you. I will fight you. Yeah, I'm ready. I will fight you. I don't care how magnificent your hair looks. I will fight you. I spent an actually significant amount of time trying to find a way to make this work.

Starting point is 00:01:14 All right. What else we got? We have something that's kind of interesting for us, which is YouTube adding shorts views to their partner program. That's actually a big deal. If you view anything on YouTube, we will talk about why. Like for the industry. Yes. And, hmm, where do I go from here? There's a couple different options.

Starting point is 00:01:32 What? Not LTT on Espanol? Sure, yeah, let's do it. I know nothing about this, but it's cool. I mean, there's all the Twitch drama, I guess. It was like that, or do I talk about Video Game Donkey? Which we're going to talk about. Alright, let's roll the intro. We're going to talk about a game donkey which we're gonna talk about all right let's roll the intro we're gonna talk about a lot of stuff yeah it's gonna be good yeah yeah

Starting point is 00:01:48 yeah All right. First of all, let's get this out of the way. Yes, can confirm for those of you asking, the unnamed major YouTuber that we sponsored to do a video about the LTT screwdriver or featuring the LTT screwdriver was Marquez. I actually ran into him at a summit over the last couple of days. It's over now, so I guess I can say that it took place.

Starting point is 00:02:32 But we were chatting about it, and I think we're both pretty darn pleased overall. Like, the community reaction to it was just like, what? This is hilarious. I love it. to it was just like this is hilarious i love it um and you know i think for both of us it was not an obvious outcome it could have yeah it could have very easily been like i don't come on mkbhd to see linus stuff or computers yeah or like what what are you doing you know sponsoring other youtubers he doesn't even build computers all the time. You never know, right? Like there could be any number of wild interpretations of what was going on. But from my point of view, and I think from his, it was actually pretty simple. It was a collab in the sense that there was a cross-pollination between the channels, between the audiences. But also we did sponsor the video, which is not really any different from what anyone else would

Starting point is 00:03:25 do and from my point of view i just wanted to see him do a computer build again because it'd been almost 10 years yeah it had been almost 10 years it's been a hot minute yeah the last time he did it was um a hackintosh that makes sense which is like yeah it's clearly been long enough that apple's over it so that'll give you some idea, right? So yeah, it was pretty fun. It was pretty cool. Overall, it was a pleasure working with their team and that's what it was. And don't be surprised

Starting point is 00:03:56 if you see the screwdriver popping up in other places. Zach from JerryRigEverything has already had his Creator Edition screwdriver make a little cameo and you'll see a lot more than that if we get our way obviously we think it's a really

Starting point is 00:04:11 great screwdriver we have sent it out to a bunch of people they're under no obligation to show it in any way but obviously we'd feel the love so that's pretty cool I guess and I figure after that we gotta jump right into the big topic, right? Yes.

Starting point is 00:04:27 NVIDIA figures what? You guys have a lot of money. You should buy more merch, I guess. Well, let's talk about this, right? Because what is the rationale here? Okay, so let's role play, okay? I'm going to be NVIDIA's CEO, Jensen Huang, okay? Oh, wow.

Starting point is 00:04:44 You are fantastically wealthy. You're going to be a gamer,'s CEO Jensen Huang You are fantastically wealthy You're going to be a gamer You have a beautiful kitchen And a nice jacket You haven't even complimented my jacket Okay So I'm NVIDIA's CEO Jensen Huang And I'm going to try and sell you

Starting point is 00:05:01 On the RTX RTX 4090 Which is coming on October 12th It looks like it is going to try and sell you on the RTX 4090, which is coming on October 12th. It's going to be hard to do. It looks like it is going to be shockingly fast. Some cool new features, DLSS 3.0. How many freaking CUDA cores does this thing have? I don't know.

Starting point is 00:05:18 We don't actually have like a spec chart here, and I don't remember off the top of my head. But, oh, yeah, here we go, here we go, here we go. We got some images on the LTT forum. Hey, massive shout out, big strews on the LTT forum for posting this. They're saying up to 2x to 3 times the performance of the 30, oh, two to four times the performance of the, uh, 3090 TI, uh, 24 gigs of GDDR6 memory. Uh, where's my, where's my CUDA cores at? Yeah, here we go. Here we go. Compare 40 series specs. Here we go. Let's just go ahead and show my screen for a minute here. 4090, 16,384 CUDA cores, 13,384 CUDA cores, 2.5 gigahertz boost clock.

Starting point is 00:06:06 That's unreal. 384-bit bus, three-slot card, yeah. 450 watts with a required system power of 850 watts. That seems optimistic. I guess we'll see how that goes. Why wouldn't you want to give me $1,600 for it? Well, the power cable and power supply situation is a little sketchy. Okay.

Starting point is 00:06:32 But, like, realistically, you've got $1,600, so just buy another power supply. You just hot-swap everything, even if it melts after two hours of gaming? Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, it's not going to melt. Come on, gamer. Be realistic. Didn't that actually happen? Oh, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:06:41 Maybe. I was skimming through a Jays2Cents video earlier today and he was talking about how like they're the the cable that you need is rated for like 30 plugs or 30 plug cycles 30 like three zero yeah but like like he noticed changes he was sitting there doing it he noticed it like start to feel different just while he was sitting there doing it like five or ten times and uh he said that bending the cable like everyone does when they're cable managing their cable will like significantly reduce the life cycle of it um it just yeah well also money you've got sixteen hundred dollars so when it wears out why don't you just buy another one yeah i i think it would be extremely hard to convince me right now if i was a buying consumer of graphics cards to buy one of those uh unless i just hated money compared to what's happening

Starting point is 00:07:39 to the used market right now okay but you still haven't answered my question i mean why not why not just buy a buy a 4090 money i i mean we'll just go earn more. What's the matter? Do you not have money? No. Okay. Because I have lots of money. So why don't you have lots of money? We should, you should look into an incubator program. An incubator program. So just to be clear, guys, we're role-playing. I'm NVIDIA CEO, Jensen Huang, and Luke is a gamer. I should look into an incubator program, right just to be clear, guys, we're role-playing. I'm NVIDIA's CEO, Jensen Huang, and Luke is a gamer. I should look into an incubator program, right? But I'm not

Starting point is 00:08:10 the one who needs to figure out how to make more money. You're the one who needs to make more money. So you should start an incubator program for other people. Look, look, look, look, look, look. Okay, shut up. None of that is my problem. I have 4090s to sell, okay? I've booked all this allocation with tsmc

Starting point is 00:08:25 well you screwed over evga no no see i don't want to talk about any of that there's some question marks about no i've got i've got these no i've got these 4090s to sell okay i need 1600 for them so you got to do your part i did my part i built the 4090 i gotta get another job yeah so i i feel like that's the least that you could do. The least that you could do. What a fantastic way to send it off. Okay, so in all seriousness... People are going to buy them.

Starting point is 00:08:57 What's the rationale here, though? Was the design of these cards done during pandemic-era pricing when they thought they could just spend, spend, spend? Is it a super expensive board? What's the justification here? Help me. They may have commit to certain things during pandemic era stuff, but most of these designs happen way further out than that, right? Ah, man, you can be finalizing the board design in the

Starting point is 00:09:25 months leading up to launch like there could have been some changes but i think the like the main goal would have already been established um he does say that chip prices going down is a quote-unquote story of the past as wafer costs have increased and moore's law dies which i think is extremely convenient if you are a big fan of leather jackets in an excessively expensive kitchen. Yeah, and the other issue with that is that we kind of experienced that with the 30 series, right? Where they went way up in price as the chip shortage went on.

Starting point is 00:09:59 Chip got real big. And you know what? It's not like we didn't see news of chip fabs like TSMC saying, hey, yeah, pricing is going up. That did happen, and it's not like that has unhappened necessarily. But the issue is that the actual sand, the actual GPU itself, is a fraction of the total cost of the board. So even if it went up 25% or even if it went up by double,

Starting point is 00:10:27 that doesn't necessarily mean that a top-tier GPU should cost this much more than it did last time around. And honestly, for the alleged, obviously we haven't tested it yet, but for the announced performance of the RTX 4090, but for the announced performance of the RTX 4090, it's not that far off as long as you accept the premise that the performance per dollar isn't going to change. If it is that much faster than a 3090 Ti, okay, fair enough.

Starting point is 00:11:03 I guess it's not that outlandish. Where we really start to run into trouble is as we make our way down to the 4080 and the 4080 12 gig, which is, as far as I can tell, not a 4080 or even necessarily a 70 class card at all. And I remember us talking about this back when NVIDIA launched, I think the first time they pulled this move was with the 680. So you guys will have to go way, way, way back in time with us. What was the code name of that GPU?

Starting point is 00:11:39 GTX 680 GPU code name. So that would have been Maxwell. Was that Maxwell? I can't even remember. Kepler. Okay. So that GPU was called GK104. And typically, the way that NVIDIA names their dies

Starting point is 00:11:56 is that you've got G is for GeForce. The next letter is for the generation, for the architecture. So it's GK for Kepler. And then you'll have to forgive me. I'm actually not sure exactly what the 10 is. Is that because it's 10 series? Can't remember.

Starting point is 00:12:15 That might be the generation or something like that. Anyway, the number I'm really focused on is the last one, the 4. And the way that NVIDIA determines that last number is the lower the number, the bigger the die. So a GK100, I can't remember if they had a GK100. So again, you'll have to forgive me. It might've been like GK102 or something like that. GK, they had 110. There we go. So 110 would have been the, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. You'll have to forgive me. Where are all the die names?

Starting point is 00:12:49 Give me the die names. I need a thing. Here we go. Uh, GK, mm, GK 104 is as low as it went for that one. That doesn't sound right. GTX 6, because what was the, uh, what was the 780? 780, uh Codename die I think 104 was the lowest And then they just like stretched it

Starting point is 00:13:13 Is that right because I thought that No no GK 110 Was the big one And I think the second number was because it was Like a mid refresh So anyway the point is that GK104, okay, so when they launched the 680, it was a much, much smaller die compared to the preceding 580. And the die size itself was more in line with what you'd expect from a five, it was either,

Starting point is 00:13:49 a 5, it was either, I think it was a 560 class product. And so what that meant, essentially, was that NVIDIA had, I mean, to their credit, done such a good job of optimizing the Kepler architecture compared to the preceding Fermi architecture, that they could get away with competing with AMD's top tier product with a mid-range product. So that was, to my knowledge, the first time they took what would ultimately end up being the second-down-tier die design, the smaller die, and got away with branding it as an 80-class product. Then, when they released the 700 series, which was also Kepler, so that was Kepler again, rather than an actual architectural change, we got to see big Kepler. And that was the big dog GK 110. So that's where you've got that zero at the end. It looks like the numbers are not

Starting point is 00:14:42 always that straightforward. So G, oh G, oh, oh my goodness. Okay. I'm not, no, I'm not even gonna, I'm not even gonna dig into any of this. So there was a 208. If I recall correctly, that was like when they did the, um, I don't know. There was another thing. It doesn't matter. The point is the lower these numbers, typically the bigger the die. So what we can see here is that when we look at the die code names for the 4000 series, and when we look at the memory bus width, not only is the 80 class getting a wimpy 192 bit bus um so what that seems to suggest is that nvidia aside from not using like a 70 80 class die for this supposedly 80 class product is actually using like a 60 product class die um So we're getting like a much, much, much smaller die. And so the reason that I'm so focused on die size is that that tends to be

Starting point is 00:15:55 generation by generation, what determines the relative cost, because that's what you're paying for. So you got your waferfer which is about like yay big and then the cost per wafer is some cost with all the processes that you have to apply to it in order to turn it into finished chips then you slice it up at the end and whichever whichever individual chips do not have egregious problems with them turn into finished products, right? So if there is a problem on the wafer, wherever the problem is, whatever dye that problem sits within is ruined. And so your yields are going to be, I mean, almost nobody actually discusses yields, but there'll be somewhere between zero and 100%. And they'll never be 100% because good luck with that. And they'll never be

Starting point is 00:16:42 zero because that wouldn't be a viable product because you wouldn't be able to actually make any of them so within that wafer which has some cost you can either slice it up into a few big chips which also increases the chances of each of those having some kind of error or problem or you can slice it up into many small chips and those are your more budget-oriented products. And if there's errors, they're more contained. Yeah, and so you are going to see wafer costs continue to rise. But even then, what we've seen so far is that that increase in wafer cost has not necessarily resulted in an increase of 50% or a doubling generation over generation of cost. And you need only look as far as like Intel's, you know, whatever their top tier consumer chip is.

Starting point is 00:17:32 Year after year after year, these die sizes have not gotten much, much smaller. And their prices have not gotten much, much higher. They've tended to go up by, you know, 5% to 10% generation by generation, not in the same kinds of leaps that NVIDIA seems to be targeting here. So, I think that aside from just being mad about it, though, what can we do is the question.

Starting point is 00:18:08 Nothing? Aside from just being mad about it, though, what can we do is the question. Nothing. Well, there's a couple of things. You can not buy it. Okay, that's one. And we've seen based on what's happened with 30 series. Oh, yeah, right. So it comes back to the whole thing that happened with 30 series. Clearly, what drove the increase in price was demand.

Starting point is 00:18:24 Excessive demand. Not the cost of building it. I think we can all see that very clearly now. I want people to make sure that they don't forget that while retailer pricing and scalper pricing was going up, MSRP was also going up behind it. Yep. So these like, oh, compared to previous MSRP, it's like, like oh compared to previous msrp it's like yeah compared to which one because this product had msr creep over time yes so i'm comparing to the launch msrp of the 30 series which nvidia clearly felt was sustainable tsmc did hike wafer rates during the the silicon

Starting point is 00:19:01 shortage which was real and is still real There are still industries that are affected by chip shortages. There's still massive, massive, massive amounts of trucks and other vehicles just sitting in lots. Absolutely. It's just that high-end GPUs is not one of those industries at the moment. So the reason I'm comparing to the 30 series at MSRP is because I think that's a very reasonable way for us to look at this,

Starting point is 00:19:29 because 30 series at launch was clearly going to be sustainable. And while prices have clearly risen, NVIDIA can clearly sell them at their original MSRP, which is what they're doing now. I doubt they're taking a loss on them i suspect that they simply aren't making as much margin on them but nvidia is a public company so we'll see soon enough if they actually had to write down this inventory or not and i think that with enough pressure

Starting point is 00:19:59 from either competition or from consumers that we will not have to put up with this for an entire generation but or i'd like to think that i i suspect i'm gonna time and time again that consumers have no spine and will buy anything that is offered to them so i don't think that's actually going to put much pressure on it at all the only thing that might put pressure there is if it is actually just bad because people will drop whatever like you're not i don't think we're ever going to be able to pull everyone together and be like don't buy it because pricing is bad and we need to like hold out we need to you know put a boycott on it i don't think that'll function at all um but if it's if it's just not a good idea, if it's just a bad deal, whatever, maybe less people will buy it.

Starting point is 00:20:47 But seeing how video cards go, uh, I think people are just going to rush out and do it anyways. Now AMD is announcing RDNA 3 GPUs November 3rd. And I have more hope now that I know the chiplet. Yes, me too, actually. That's actually really cool. I had very little hope before i heard that i know amd gpus have just been like a meme yeah for so long time yeah really long time it's been

Starting point is 00:21:14 it's been hard to recognize the gpu side of the business as the same company that's been absolutely like slaying the giant on the cpu side oh yeah, absolutely. But now that I know RDNA 3 is a chiplet design, which is exactly what has caused such a thorn in Intel's side, I can't help but be kind of excited. I mean, Apple has kind of shown us that a multi-component GPU with a high-speed interconnect can work.

Starting point is 00:21:48 Yeah. I mean, what is it? I hate their naming schemes so much, but it would be the M1 Pro Max or whatever. Whatever the top tier. Ultra? I don't know. Whatever the top tier M1 chip is

Starting point is 00:22:01 has essentially two kind of separated gpu die areas with an interconnect between them that's that's to my knowledge never been done before uh because of all i mean it's the same issue that caused micro stuttering and sli because those gpus need to have such high speed links between them in order to uh in order to share data in such a way that they can, that they can operate without microstutter, that it just wasn't, it just hasn't been feasible. But Apple did it. AMD has a chiplet design that clearly they're confident enough in to release. And RDNA 3 looks pretty good from what we've seen of it so far. A3 looks pretty good from what we've seen of it so far.

Starting point is 00:22:46 So I'm excited. GravePCMR on Twitch says, people need to stop bashing AMD GPUs. They are great and a better value than NVIDIA GPUs. Linus, you're hopelessly biased. Hold on. Let me come back with some great AMD GPUs. One moment, please.

Starting point is 00:23:04 Okay, okay, okay okay there are some they exist they exist i expect it's not actually a joke i suspect he might actually bring one back um it's probably gonna be really old because we do have like an area of the storage which is actually quite close to us which is like really old school GPUs. And he's going to have to go back into the vault to pull one of these out. He might have to dust it off a little bit. I hope we have a brush. But, you know, 290 and 290X. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:37 Featured in Scrapyard Wars. Maybe those will come up. We'll see. Other things to talk about. I think he's going to want to be here for pretty much everything. And I don't think I have enough time to talk about Video Game Dunkey and his Big Mode publisher. But we'll talk about that later. Do you want a question, Luke?

Starting point is 00:23:52 I have one for you. Sure, let's do it. Last week, you shared that you are Scuba certified. Yeah. Have you been anywhere cool or have plans to go anywhere cool? That's from Anon. Sure. I've been to a few places.

Starting point is 00:24:03 My favorite one was Green Island in Taiwan, which it's going to have a different name if you can speak Taiwanese, I guess, but I know it as Green Island. The diving there was absolutely fantastic. Really, really awesome. There's one place we went. I don't remember how deep it was. I'm sorry. It's been a few years because we haven't been able to travel, but I used to go to Taiwan every year. But but yeah the dive brought us through two opposing currents so as we were going down there's one current that went this way and then there's another current that this went this way and then there was a valley between two like underwater mountain things and there was reef everywhere and tons of fish and it was it was absolutely beautiful loved it all right oh i

Starting point is 00:24:43 yeah okay okay No one saw those because those all went to mining. Let us not forget. Let us not forget the truly amazing, best-selling product that was oh, man. The

Starting point is 00:24:59 Radeon Vega 64 Water Cooled edition. It wasn't even vaporware at all. Yeah, this product definitely actually existed. I remember a whole thing where I was like, yeah, you know, we've been using a lot of, like, NVIDIA GPUs in our builds lately.

Starting point is 00:25:21 And I went on Newegg, like, mid-life cycle for this product. And I was like, oh, yeah like oh yeah what's their pricing like has it settled in a little bit since launch when it wasn't competitive at all and there was literally one vendor that had like one SKU for Vega 64 and of that SKU

Starting point is 00:25:40 you know how you can just like key in the quantity that you want to buy and it'll correct you if they don't have enough they had like three in stock and this was on newegg.com functionally these things didn't exist uh big big f big fail didn't vega 64 non-water cooling exist but they like all went to minors that was my understanding uh vega 56 kind of existed okay but even for that one you know you'd go on newegg.com and they'd have literally Like 25 in stock And on any G4 SKU

Starting point is 00:26:11 Individual SKU They would have more than that In stock to give you some idea of what the Sales disparity was. Guys I don't make The rules here. I'm just Informing you And let us not forget. Let us not forget the Radeon VII.

Starting point is 00:26:30 I think they actually did make seven of them. I was going to say, I don't even know if I've seen this. This was a product that, as far as anyone could tell, was a data center GPU that they like I don't know had some extras of or something and they did one run of them and then it just

Starting point is 00:26:54 quietly disappeared like okay are we ever gonna talk about Radeon 7 again no alright no problem guys look I don't Are we ever going to talk about Radeon VII again? No? All right.

Starting point is 00:27:08 No problem. Guys, look, I don't make this stuff up. This is just a reality. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, I'm not a fanboy. I've just been doing this a long time. I'm just jaded.

Starting point is 00:27:24 I'm jaded and cynical r9 280 really solid uh nine years ago the r9 280 was a re-release of a of a gpu that they had already released like two years prior wasn't it pretty good price performance though well yeah like uh you know nine years ago yeah i was at nine i think it was nine years ago i know i just said that twice but i i think well the r9280 was announced at the hawaii launch where the only if i recall correctly the only actual new card was the 90 class cards and then the 80 was just a rebranded 7970 if i recall and then didn't they rebrand it again as the 380 so long i don't really remember any of this. I just remember the price performance was pretty solid

Starting point is 00:28:07 and people would sell them used for like nothing. Guy in MatSci asks, did those Fury GPUs exist? That was yet another essentially vaporware AMD high-end GPU. They've released these high-end products that have been not competitive. And then because they're not competitive, nobody's actually buying them. Like you got the weird,

Starting point is 00:28:28 like all team red fan boy builds. Yeah. And that's it. And so you can't get board partner support for them because when you do a run of boards, like you're talking thousands, tens of thousands, not like a few hundred,

Starting point is 00:28:43 you do not build a few hundred graphics cards. It's not a thing. So it just, and why would you go and buy thousands of something that you know is obsolete before you even build it, other than to just do a favor for AMD? There are exceptions. Yeah, 5700 XT, yeah, strong card.

Starting point is 00:29:02 Polaris, yeah, Polaris was solid. It's so funny to hear people talking about RX 580 RX 580 is RX 570 or 480. Excuse me. Um, 470 is 480 and a 570 470 is 570 and 480 is 580. They're, they're essentially the same thing. It's like, it's like a firmware update. 580 they're they're essentially the same thing it's like it's like a firmware update uh some can says a 7970 mind me 15 bitcoins 10 years ago so hey hey did you trade those for a pizza or did you actually hold on to them uh linus is just focusing on the high end which they've not done much with in the last few years yeah because they couldn't you don't think they wanted to everyone likes selling high-end gpus it's a good time i think the main

Starting point is 00:29:46 ones that we've been talking about today have been uh 480 sorry 40 80 40 70 40 90 so we're talking about high-end cards yeah of course we're talking about high-end cards um but yeah so i i forget why i was talking about AMD. Oh yeah, right. Because I'm actually hopeful for RDNA 3. Yeah, me too. I'm excited. It seems like over the last couple of years,

Starting point is 00:30:13 they've really settled down in terms of their driver development. I still, I really need to try it. I haven't tried it yet, but apparently their hardware encoding has gotten a lot better, which is a big one for me like amd and nvidia amd could be 10 better price to performance than nvidia and if they don't have good hardware h.264 encoding or i mean failing that av1 it's fine well until obs supports av1 i guess i don't care but until they have solid hardware encoding i'm just i i'm not going to do

Starting point is 00:30:41 it because on the occasion that i do stream i'm not going to want to suck up cpu cycles um but if they have it man like what do you stream i'm excited for a viable alternative what do you stream i've streamed beat saber yeah is that hard to stream beat saber well yeah you don't want to suck up cpu cycles when you're in vr yeah it matters more than you'd think because if I get a stutter, I get sick. That's fair enough. Okay. For real.

Starting point is 00:31:08 And anode can actually be pretty heavy once you're far into games. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right. So the discussion around... OBS already supports AV1 encoding. I didn't actually know that.

Starting point is 00:31:17 Sorry? Someone in chat said OBS already supports AV1 encoding. Really? Since OBS 28. Oh, well, that's exciting. I didn't know that. But that leads us perfectly

Starting point is 00:31:27 into our discussion question here. So the big winner, it's in here as like a question, I added this. In my opinion, Intel. Because what it looks like is if we look at last gen games, because the 2 to 4X faster,

Starting point is 00:31:42 well, that's for next gen games with like DLSS 3 and stuff. NVIDIA does this every single launch. Get used to it. So when they say last-gen games, we're expecting only 1.5 to 1.6 times faster, which means that your price per FPS looks like it's actually not really changing that much.

Starting point is 00:32:00 Essentially, they're doing the same thing they did with the 20 series, where they're taking the existing lineup and they're basically just going, yeah, however that performed, we're going to put these new cards higher. Exactly in line with the pricing of the last generation, instead of accounting for that they have actually gone down in cost for them for FPS per dollar. But don't worry about that. Don't worry about that. gone down in cost for them for FPS per dollar, but don't worry about that.

Starting point is 00:32:23 Don't worry about that. So if they do that, I think the big winner is Intel because if they built a product that was supposed to compete FPS per dollar with 30 series... Then it still competes. Then it might still actually compete. It'll be a lower end product than it would have been in terms of

Starting point is 00:32:40 how far away it is from the top of the line in the market. But that doesn't mean that it won't be a totally valid and relevant product at the price that you know luke the gamer who doesn't want to get another job so he can buy a gpu can actually afford big winner yeah potentially intel i also like i don't know i often have cheaper tastes than a lot of people, but a 70 series or a 70 whatever, a 4070 starting at 900 is a lot. A lot. That's a ton of money.

Starting point is 00:33:21 I know this is a long, long, long time ago, but weren't we looking at like 400 like it's over doubled in the last 10 years right oh yeah yeah oh yeah huge portion 900 bucks when you're looking at gaming builds now that are pretty solid for the majority of games that people play for like a a mid-range gamer that are around the price of your graphics card like i i helped i helped a buddy spec out a computer recently didn't have a huge budget we priced it in and i think about a thousand or eleven hundred something like that like it's always it's an okay amount of money it's not a massive budget though it's gonna do pretty good

Starting point is 00:34:01 it's pretty darn close to the price of the entire graphics card. And he's going to be completely fine. He already has the computer. He is completely fine in almost everything people play. Sure, he's not cranking Star Citizen, but there's like 40 people that play. So that's actually not true. They passed $500 million in funding. Yeah, that's in the WAN doc.

Starting point is 00:34:24 Is it really? Yeah, we'll million in funding. Yeah, that's in the WAN doc. Is it really? Yeah, we'll talk about it. Yeah, wow. The 8800GTX, which came out in 2004. MSRP, $599 US. 8800GTX, that was a sick card. That was the top tier until they released a mid-cycle refresh 8800 Ultra that was just an overclocked 8800 GTX.

Starting point is 00:34:47 It was essentially the same thing. And so we can't really... That was a wicked time. We can't really compare this to a 4080. And the reason for that is that it's not an apples-to-apples, die-to-die comparison. The 8800 GTX was a 384 bit memory bus large die part so really from like a die area standpoint the equivalent would be the 4090 yeah which is coming in at 1600 which is somewhere

Starting point is 00:35:19 about two and what does that work out to about two and a half x the price now if we go and we play let's play inflation calculator all right because that's certainly been a thing inflation calculator usd all right a lot lately come on come on come hang with me you guys let's play with the usd inflate I purchased an item for $599 then in 2002 calculate $939 so it's entirely sorry guys it's entirely believable that you could pay

Starting point is 00:35:55 $939 for a top tier GPU today that wouldn't seem too surprising no that wouldn't be that surprising to me at all so that's the actual price that they've come in with for the 47 excuse me sorry ah the 4080 12 gig which is by the way like a mainstream tier part in terms of of dye area but there's one problem with that argument that nvidia is making that well semiconductors uh electronics are getting more expensive and that's every other um electronics thing electronics is like this magic

Starting point is 00:36:35 it like has inflationary armor or something like look at what the cost of a tv is compared to it wasn't to what it was in 2004 actually crazy cheap it's wild and and this isn't this is another thing tvs tv manufacturers are under a lot of the same pressures that silicon manufacturers are except there's more competition in their space compared to mr gpu team that has no one against them effectively right now. Exactly. That's the problem. As you try to build bigger and bigger TVs, the fabs get bigger and more complex.

Starting point is 00:37:12 As you try to cram in more pixel density, you have to deal with far higher complexity, far lower yields. Failure rates. Consumer demands have gotten much, much more stringent. People used to accept that you could have up to five to seven dead pixels. Dead pixels, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, they'll just take it back.

Starting point is 00:37:33 One dead pixel, no, you're done. You're done. You're out. You're out. And reliability has become much more of a challenge. I suspect that LG does more warranty replacement of their OLED TVs than they probably did of the previous technologies that they focused on just because of the nature of OLED.

Starting point is 00:37:49 And if you run it at full brightness all the time with static imagery, it is going to wear out within the warranty period, which I don't think was a problem that they necessarily faced before. So these other electronics industries are under a lot of the same pressures, and yet it's a very different result

Starting point is 00:38:06 yep i'm uh very much hoping for other teams i was already really hoping for intel and i know i'm saying this for like the fourth time this show but the whole chiplet thing has me stoked for uh for amd's new offerings as well we'll see how it it goes. One of our other discussion questions, actually, before we wrap this up, and we will soon, but one of our other discussion questions is how much of this is NVIDIA strategy? How much of this is higher pricing so that they can just get rid of the rumored

Starting point is 00:38:38 enormous stockpile of 30 series cards that they have sitting there because they overproduced for a mining boom that busted so like making it not an improvement in price performance is strategic yeah because they actually do not want you to buy 40 series sitting on inventory is expensive yeah so this way they don't have to mark down their 30 series as much unless amd sees a moment of weakness drop decides to twist the knife. They've done it before. They've done it before.

Starting point is 00:39:10 I'd like to see it. That'd be sweet. So here's my idea. I think that following just our, you know, vanilla review of the RTX 4000 or whatever, when that comes out, following that, I kind of want to do a deeper dive into RTX 4000 versus RTX 3000 plus ARC as a dedicated AV1 encoding coprocessor.

Starting point is 00:39:37 And specifically, I would want to look at it from like a streaming standpoint. Yeah, I think you'd have to. I think that would be sick. That'd be sweet. I have always loved mixed team gpu setups i remember way back in the day you did some video in the house about running amd and nvidia i had sli and crossfire yeah yeah yeah

Starting point is 00:39:58 in the same computer like that was cool that wasiculous, but it was cool that it like functioned Yeah, it was that was pretty dumb so the idea was that Depending on whether the game was better optimized for Nvidia or for AMD You could switch which primary GPU your monitor was plugged into Get the best of all worlds. Oh by the way, I hope your GPUs don't need to breathe because they're all a solid brick installed in your PCIe slots. I'm pretty sure we didn't water cool it.

Starting point is 00:40:30 Very cool. But yeah, I don't know. Hopefully the GPU world gets turned on its head because it's been pretty frustrating for a while now. CPU was frustrating for a longer period of time and then got solved. Maybe AMD can solve it again. I'd like to see it solved.

Starting point is 00:40:47 We also need a solution to Logitech thinking that their G Cloud handheld has any reason for existing. You know, I heard through the grapevine that some kind of Logitech gaming handheld was coming quite some time ago. I was going to say it must have been quite some time ago because the planning for this must have started

Starting point is 00:41:09 before they heard about Steam Deck. It must have. It has to. I did not know that it was going to be a cloud gaming device. Cloud, so that's the name of the product, which won't get confusing when you're trying to look up information about it at all. Cloud requires a cloud, but not capitalized. Subscription service sold separately to work as intended. Holy shit.

Starting point is 00:41:36 Good luck, Logitech. Such as NVIDIA GeForce Now or Xbox Game Pass. The specs. Snapdragon 720G. Woo! So fast. The specs. Snapdragon 720G. Woo! So fast. G is for... So powerful.

Starting point is 00:41:49 G-Wiz. This sure is a mainstream tier product. Octa-Core CPU. 1080p. Okay. IPS. IPS. 450 nits.

Starting point is 00:41:59 Okay. 60 hertz. 12 hours battery life. Oh my God. Who worked on this product page this is the fresh rate we so fresh wait does it say fresh rate it says fresh rate that f is capitalized it's not cut off that's awesome the fresh rate that is so sick 60 hertz yo fresh rate You need another rapping video. It's been too long. No, I do not. I do not need that.

Starting point is 00:42:27 Stereo speaker. Okay. No, no. It's either a mono speaker or stereo speakers. You cannot have it both ways. Bluetooth 5.1. Digital USB-C headphone support. That's still analog.

Starting point is 00:42:46 Man, I don't want to be that guy, but come on, you guys. It comes with a power adapter in the box. That's sick. Battery watt hours. Wait, what? Well, I mean, yes, that is the unit, but the unit goes after here,

Starting point is 00:43:01 and you would just say battery capacity. You wouldn't say battery grams, and then 90 grams. Really, you guys? I also enjoy that they say battery watt hours, and then they put watt hours again, but abbreviated in the spec. Team Redundant Team.

Starting point is 00:43:24 Yeah. There's reviews on the website. Yeah, I yeah i gotta read these because it has five stars and let me put it this way i don't think if we released this product on lttstore.com it would have five stars because we assuming they're not like spam or abusive do not curate the reviews on our site. Have you looked at the Was This Review Helpful ratings? Oh, hold on a second. Floatplane is talking about TF cards. Do they seriously say it has...

Starting point is 00:43:53 Oh my God. It has TF card expansion. When's the last time you heard micro SD called Transflash? Like, I think like 2008 I'm not even kidding It's been a minute Yeah

Starting point is 00:44:09 Again No offense Like to be clear I think Logitech builds a lot of great products Oh yeah I have personally received Even going back before Before I was like scary to not give good

Starting point is 00:44:26 service to, I've received amazing customer service from Logitech. Logitech's one of my favorite brands. Mad respect for Logitech. This product page is atrocious. This ain't it, chief. Jump to the reviews or share my screen.

Starting point is 00:44:42 I'm jumping to the reviews. Let's go. Look at the was this review helpful section. A no brainer for the new wave in gaming. No, Luke, I need to read these. This is a no brainer. I don't think no brainer means what you think it means. These feel like they were written by a commission based retail store employee. No brainer because your brain fell out.

Starting point is 00:45:05 It completely fell out through your ear. I was hesitant because of the need for constant Wi-Fi. But the world is only going more and more cloud-based.

Starting point is 00:45:16 So get in now. You've got to get on the train. You're going to regret not having RTX. I took a couple days to really think about it and realize it's a no brainer.

Starting point is 00:45:25 Applause for Logitech pushing the technology culture forward. That specific wording, I love. And looking forward to reviewing this as well. So you didn't review it. You just want the technology culture pushed forward. Thank you, Cyrus L. All right, next up, we've got Martin. Cyrus, if you don't include something

Starting point is 00:45:48 about the technology culture being pushed forward in your actual review, I'm going to be very disappointed. Logitech got it right. This is the definitive, perfect answer to a gap in the market that leverages unique opportunities that are booming in the last years. Handheld PC companions and cloud gaming. Incredible offering from Logitech to surf on that product line seems with a perfect

Starting point is 00:46:16 answer. Looking forward to see how it has actually been executed. Only question right now, and then it ends. Okay, no. There's a tiny space after the M that you can click on. Why no sim or eSIM slot? Well, because that would be terrible. And then they answer their own question. Yeah, oh, but with the huge data consumption of cloud gaming, that would probably destroy your data plan in two days. Yes, that's it. Also, the latency sucks.

Starting point is 00:46:41 Like, there's no way you'd want to play on mobile. So whatever employee wrote these added an FAQ at the end of one of their reviews, which is good. Dylan S. says, please release in the UK, please. And Kevin S., this is my personal favorite, it's American made. Yeah. No, it isn't. This device is a great new addition to the world of gaming. It has all the features you could look for in it. Okay, I think we need to examine this wording very closely.

Starting point is 00:47:16 It has all the features that you could look for in it. So if you could look for the feature in it, then it has it. I don't know if that's true. And finally, it does and I quote, everything right. Okay, look at the was this review helpful?

Starting point is 00:47:39 Oh yeah, these people, supposed people, are getting absolutely slayed by the thumbs up and thumbs down ratings. Which is very interesting to me because the Logitech Got Everything Right by Martin has 65 dislikes. Yeah. If there was that many dislikes, you'd think that someone would click the write a review button and write a negative review. But there is only five star reviews.

Starting point is 00:48:03 Yeah. So are they filtering it so that you can only see? I have an idea. I'm going to write a review. I think it has to be a five-star one to show up, but we can do some science. We'll find out. I'm going to do a two-star

Starting point is 00:48:15 because I don't want to be overly negative. I'm going to go with title. Logitech has their work cut out for them. To be clear, I don't want this to be spam Right? Like I'm not You should never leave a spam review And I'm not gonna Misrepresent it, I'm not gonna act like I own it

Starting point is 00:48:35 I don't think you need to, so that's okay But if Logitech's line If Logitech's line is that You have to be a verified purchaser Then okay, fair enough No it's not. Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:47 Like if that's the line, then fine. That's where the line is. But then you need to be consistent. Then the people leaving it five-star reviews should also have their reviews wiped out, right? I think verified reviewer means purchaser. Yeah, so some of them are, some of them aren't. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:49:01 And to be clear, you know, I'm not saying that, you know, your moderation will be perfect like i promise you there are reviews on ltt store from people who didn't buy it that are positive that we didn't remove because usually it's just a case of nobody flagged it to us like it wasn't so egregiously spam that it that it didn't get flagged. But what that means is that the way our system works is things go up by default and then are pulled down. So what we're testing right now

Starting point is 00:49:32 is to see if a reasonable, balanced review, one where I didn't buy it, but neither did some of the other people, will make it through to their site. So do you want to do another topic? Oh, do you want to do sponsor spots while I type up my review of the cloud? Sure, let's do it. And then you'll read it to us when you're done?

Starting point is 00:49:48 Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Thanks to Mint Mobile for sponsoring today's show. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless service starting at just $15 a month. And now for the plot twist. Nope, there isn't one. Seriously, Mint Mobile has premium plans from just $15 a month.

Starting point is 00:50:03 No tier contracts or opening your bill to find all of these crazy fees. Mint Mobile gives you the best rate whether you're buying for one or a family. And at Mint, families start at just two lines. All plans come with unlimited talk and text and high-speed data delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and keep your same phone number along with all of your existing contacts. Get premium wireless from just $15 a month and no unexpected plot twists at mintmobile.com slash WAN show. That's mintmobile.com slash WAN show. Seriously, you'll make your wallet really happy at mintmobile.com slash WAN show. Thanks to Clyde for sponsoring today's show. The challenge with endpoint security

Starting point is 00:50:41 has always been that it's difficult to scale. And when remote work took over, that challenge got exponentially harder. You need visibility into your fleet of devices in order to meet security goals and reduce service desk tickets. But how do you do that when visibility in different parts of your company run on Mac, Windows, and Linux? Well, you get Collide. Collide is an endpoint security solution that gives IT teams a single dashboard for all devices, regardless of their operating system. Collide also gives you real-time access to your fleet's data and can do things that traditional MDMs just can't. Thank you. Thanks to Hetzner for sponsoring today's show. Hetzner is one of the leading hosting provider and data center operators in Europe with hundreds of thousands of servers in operation. By combining its strengths in innovative technology, attractive prices, expert support, and flexible customer service, Hetzner has expanded its market both within and outside of Europe. They operate their very own high-tech data centers in Nuremberg and Falkenstein, both located in Germany and in Helsinki, Finland.

Starting point is 00:51:55 Hetzner offers high-performance cloud servers for an amazing price. And with their latest location in Ashburn, Virginia, you can deploy cloud servers in four different locations and benefit from features like load balancers, block storage, and more. So deploy a cloud server in seconds using Hetzner by clicking the link in the show notes. Also, another one, I'm going to get him a little bit more time. LTT Store, deal of the week. Get four elemental shirts for only 50 bucks. The discount is applied automatically at checkout. You can mix and match at your own will. I believe you could even get four of the same one if you're into that type of thing i know a few people that just like having the same stuff all the time so you could do that um so check it out yeah ltdstore.com elemental shirts they're good quality shirts and four for 50 is a really good price there's also the ltd

Starting point is 00:52:42 cargo shorts oh dang yeah go. Yeah, go buy them. I heard about that earlier, but I didn't know that was actually like a thing. They are. It's on the store right now. Whoa. Whoa. Cool. We're looking at, I think, Riley's Junk right now, sort of.

Starting point is 00:53:01 Sorry, Riley, but you're wearing the shorts. Do you want to share your screen? Yeah, why not? Whoop. use junk right now sort of sorry riley but you want to share your screen yeah why not that that's not it hey there's riley yeah i don't necessarily know what to say about them but they look good uh oh there's there's lots of cool things to say about them actually they have magnetic flaps oh that's pretty but they're like like like flat magnets so they don't like show a lot uh yeah you can't really tell i don't think i think you can sort of see it right there but not really not much it looks like a design feature if anything yep um they're super comfy uh in my opinion they look

Starting point is 00:53:38 great and i i like magnets what else else can I say? Very cool. 2% spandex, so they got a little bit of the stretch. That's good. But not a ton. You're not going to feel like you're wearing yoga shorts or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Don't really want that.

Starting point is 00:53:57 Seven useful pockets. Is there back pockets? Oh, man, I forget. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure there's back pockets. Someone's butt in here probably. There we go. There's your back pocket. Cool. Heck in here probably. There we go. There we go. Yep, there's a back pocket. Thanks, Riley.

Starting point is 00:54:06 Cool. Heck yeah, right? Lots of different sizes. Get the phone in there. Oh, that's a good way of showing that off. Yeah. Oh, love it. Screwed every bit.

Starting point is 00:54:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. Cool. I worked on these for a long time. Oh, is that intentional? It's like a pocket force headphones of course very cool of course it's always intentional always intentional sir sweet yeah did he tuck his t-shirt into cargo shorts I think he did

Starting point is 00:54:34 what a boss all right he's a winner all right yeah he's a winner all right so let's go back to my screen here he wins the dad games I have written my review all right let's go back to my screen here. He wins the dad games. I have written my review. Alright, let's hear it. Okay. Well, here, we'll just go to me. Score, two stars. Title, Logitech has their work cut out for them. Here's my review. The challenge for Logitech here

Starting point is 00:54:58 is not that I feel there is a lack of demand for a cloud streaming handheld. I look forward to being hands-on, and my expectations for the quality of the control and the display are very high given Logitech's reputation for building excellent peripherals. However, it feels like this product was conceptualized and designed at a time when competing gaming handhelds were not yet available and it's a major problem for Logitech that there are other devices for $50 to $100 more that can not only game via cloud services but also locally due to their much more powerful hardware.

Starting point is 00:55:26 So it may not be bad, but it's awkwardly positioned. At $150, I could see it making sense, but that would require aggressive cost savings on the bomb, so that could, oh, on the bomb, comma, which could hurt the experience and make it feel cheap and ultimately reflect poorly on the Logitech brand. It feels like a device that just doesn't have a place at the price it costs to build.

Starting point is 00:55:51 Use your name, Linus Sebastian, email linustechchipsgmail.com and we'll go ahead and post. So it looks like that did in fact go up and all that remains to be seen is whether it stays oh no it didn't oh crap you guys missed this mine went up for a second yeah i never saw it and then i refreshed and it was gone yeah it's not there for me okay so what we've confirmed then is that whatever there's some form of filtering either they all have to be manually approved yeah or it's only five star or something

Starting point is 00:56:25 whatever other good things that logitech has done they are clearly suppressing um real feedback on this product in a way that i'm not like a super huge fan of obviously you don't want spam there is there is people will if you have it completely open people will post things that are not okay to have on your website. Yeah. So, like, you do need some form of filtering, to be fair. I just find it extremely suspicious that with this much negative interaction, like the 70 dislikes on one of these reviews, that there are zero reviews that have any form of real negative content in them or don't rate it five stars. Yeah. That's super, super, super sus.

Starting point is 00:57:10 People are saying the reviews button is gone from the main page now. So you can't even get to the review page. Really? What? It's there for me. That doesn't seem right. Yeah, I saw it.

Starting point is 00:57:21 I was able to navigate away and I was able to go to it again. I've even been like... I'm in the process of typing a five-star review. It's amazing that Logitech has seen the future and built this product. It's like they're looking into my mind and seeing what I want

Starting point is 00:57:32 and building it before I can even think of it. Logitech, thank you for bringing... I didn't know I've been waiting for this my whole life. Oh, thank you for bringing the cloud future to the present. I only just now realized I have been waiting for this product my whole life.

Starting point is 00:57:55 Use your name, Luke. My friend here, Esquire. Darn it. I'll take it. Okay, let's go. Let's go. Okay, you guys ready let's post let's see okay luke e here uh i love this thing okay refresh it's it's gone and it's gone so it's got to be man but i can subscribe to logitech g so yeah it appears to be manual review let's see if anyone from logitech watches when show and if they accidentally let the luke esquire review through you guys are going Subscribe to Logitech Geeks. So yeah, it appears to be... It's got to be a manual review. Let's see if anyone from Logitech watches WAN Show

Starting point is 00:58:25 and if they accidentally let the Luke Esquire review through. You guys are going to keep an eye on this for us, right? You need to, yeah. I think someone's going to tip someone off at Logitech. Oh, probably. Apparently the Canadian site has no review option, but the US site does. Got it, got it.

Starting point is 00:58:40 Okay. Yeah, it's just a bummer. The 64 gig Steam Deck is $3 399 and you can easily look at the 64 gig steam deck and go yeah that's not enough storage it's a stupid device but but then the logitech one doesn't have any store yeah so you could have some yeah some local games it's better than nothing which is what it's competing against at this price point like steam deck pricing is wild valve basically came in slapped their gigantic deck on the table and we're like yeah we're just like not gonna make money so because we talked about a lot

Starting point is 00:59:11 at the lunch that the that the deck was very aggressively priced i saw people complaining about the pricing i was like are you have you lost your your pickles we've said since the very beginning that the pricing of the deck was very aggressive. And this shows you. I could see. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Logitech's got some crappy anemic Snapdragon 720G in here and they still have to put it on $50 promo or whatever to get within a reasonable shot of what Valve is doing with the deck. Snapdragon 720G, when did that come out?

Starting point is 00:59:45 Announced on January in 2020. Because here, here's the thing. If the deck didn't exist, what would you think of this pricing? Might be all right. Yeah. Yeah, because looking at what Windows handhelds from companies that are not able to subsidize

Starting point is 01:00:03 with 30% steam game revenue right like uh i and neo has the uh the air which is like what starts at like 650 bucks so yeah it costs half as much probably like feels pretty good but only does like cloud streaming i mean i know people there's some cloud subscriptions i don't like them but there's some cloud subscriptions that get you a lot of games yeah and there's people there's people who bought PS Vitas basically exclusively to stream from their PlayStation yeah that's a thing that that that is a use case where they're only even going to use it at home right and if I was only using this thing at home yeah yeah at that price like I it would still be one of those weird curiosity like in between products to me for sure where but it but the pricing if the deck didn't exist i would not have been

Starting point is 01:00:52 surprised i wouldn't have said the same thing that i said about the deck like whoa the pricing you're so crazy but yeah but i would have been like yeah i mean i get it yeah it's a screen it's got a motherboard in it they have to to pay back the R&D cost somehow. It's probably a low-volume product. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I don't know. Hard to agree. But in a world where the deck does exist,

Starting point is 01:01:13 this is a little out to lunch. In a world where merch messages exist, sending Super Chats and Twitch bits is out to lunch. So you guys, if you want to send a merch message, all you got to do, head over to lttstore.com. Check out either the Elemental T-shirt deal. So we're doing four T-shirts for 50 US dollars. They're basically the only shirts we have in stock right now. Because long story short, we were A, not able to get product consistently from American Apparel, and B, knew that we were not able to get product consistently from American Apparel.

Starting point is 01:01:51 So we've been working on our own branded shirts for quite some time. And so we've kind of allowed our American Apparel shirts to kind of go away. Also, we launched Screwdriver, which sold like 60,000 units Or 50,000 units in the first week Or something like that So we obviously alongside those orders Sold a lot of t-shirts So there's like It's a t-shirt wasteland on the site

Starting point is 01:02:14 Except for good old Elemental Our worst selling design Except when we do promos For Elemental You know what's really funny Is like a lot of mornings, I actually grab the Elemental shirt. Just like, yeah.

Starting point is 01:02:28 They're solid. It's the same blank, so it's just as comfy as all the other ones. Yep. And it's just... Just simple LTT logo. Got four different colors. So guys, check them out.

Starting point is 01:02:38 You can get four Elemental shirts. So it works out to like $13 each or something like that. Like less than that, like $12.50 50 each or something and then we also obviously launched cargo shorts so either your message will show down here if you want to do like a shout out for your mom or your friends assuming your mom and your friends watch when show i mean my mom does yeah hey there you go uh so you can do a shout out or you can uh ask a simple question and our producer, Jake Belovance, can answer. Oh, the producer cam is not pointed at you, Jake.

Starting point is 01:03:11 Good. So you can't sneak up on me. Oh, I see. Oh, did you do that on purpose? Anyway, so Bell might answer you and then your answer will show up down there. Or if you have like a more complicated thing, then he might throw it to us uh so you just uh go you can look in the checkout on lttstore.com you'll see a field to fill out so that's what we do instead of super chats instead of um like twitch whatever however people throw money at people on twitch all right what did you want to talk about

Starting point is 01:03:39 next um oh yeah and we're gonna we'll we super chats We'll answer merch messages at the end of the show Wow So people had complained about there being too much merch messages Interspersed I want to know more about this Linus Tech Tips Español Oh this is so exciting I heard grapevine stuff about this in the past

Starting point is 01:04:01 But I didn't know this was actually like happening now Oh yes Ed has been putting some serious business work into ltd on espanol and let's go ahead i'm sorry i do not speak spanish i don't even pretend to speak any spanish so my accent is surely atrocious but let's go ahead and pop this bad boy up here. I believe my audio should be working, but, or here, I'll walk you through what you're about to see first, and then I'll show it to you.

Starting point is 01:04:30 We're taking the original video, okay? So in this case, it's a clip from, I forget which one, but it doesn't matter. The point is, this is a very, very short video clip, but we've actually done it on a much, much longer video. And it does scale. I believe the video that you're going to see it come out on first is the dash cam video that we did recently. And what it, what we're doing is we are using, uh, like a, like a voice to text service to transcribe the input audio to English. So then we get an English version of the script.

Starting point is 01:05:05 Then, obviously, there needs to be a little bit of cleanup. We are then taking that English text and using, like, AI, natural language translation to translate it into Spanish text, which is all, like, yeah, and, right? Like, you've been able to use Google Translate to do that for an awful long time at this point okay now here's where things get really wild next stage is a text to speech um

Starting point is 01:05:34 with an ai generated voice that not only creates the voice from absolutely nothing but attempts to handle the timing of the delivery okay so i still think that has problems with uh emotion right uh it tries okay wow it tries but um it's it's tough so the next stage hold on a second is this the one where he sent it? Yeah, cool. So you can watch along with us if you want, because I have this right here. So you can just take that, and then you can watch while we're watching. Maybe just turn your audio on away from that. Not yet, though.

Starting point is 01:06:14 Not yet. So after we create the AI-generated voice version, the robot voice gets naturalized with AI into a recording from a voice actor's voice like into into another voice that's based on a recording from a voice actor but that's just like a voice print recording okay so it's not a voice actor who read the script no there's no voice actor involved at any stage in this process then this this is wild. After the whole process is done, we find any sentences where the timing of the delivery is not quite right. You know, with like a, you know,

Starting point is 01:06:55 you're going to see in this, there's like a punch in. And so the delivery is like kind of timed weird. And we can spot fix it ourselves by just yakking into a microphone like the editor could just like do their best spanish impression at their desk and then it would use the same ai voice editing uh process to turn instead of the robot voice into the actor's voice our editor's voice into the actor's voice for hopelessly, hopelessly, hopefully a seamless viewing experience. Now all that sounds pie in the sky. Sure does.

Starting point is 01:07:35 Loudface Bob says, this seems incredibly overcomplicated. Well, how else would you do it? You'd have to hire someone. Yeah, you'd have to hire, like I can tell you right now managing a team of translators and voice actors also complicated like yes it's complicated but what it also could be is scalable um and yes cleanup is required in the translation as well

Starting point is 01:08:02 so this sounds like it's going to be a disaster, says Squidvorb. Alright. You guys ready? Yeah. Okay. Hopefully you guys have my audio here, but you're going to see each step that I just described,

Starting point is 01:08:19 one after the other, after the other. So, ready, Luke? Why don't we press go at the same time here? Do you have audio? Double check. That's probably adjusting ringer volume. Oh, no, you're good. Okay. Three, two, one, let's go. Oh, people are saying they can't hear it.

Starting point is 01:08:57 Bell, I thought we checked this. I heard it. Get rekt, audience. Losers! I heard it get wrecked audience Losers I see levels So what's the deal with that I thought we Yeah

Starting point is 01:09:15 We have no Can you check the OBS advanced audio properties or whatever And make sure it's actually taking that Source sorry guys I mean I guess we've kind of Spoiled it a bit now it was supposed to be All impressive and stuff I want to like

Starting point is 01:09:32 Talk about it but I need to I'm going to not until you guys can see it I know I know right Then we can discuss it together Yeah sweet People are saying it was Very quiet Oh like it was picked up by a mic

Starting point is 01:09:46 yeah yeah that was probably that was probably Luke it probably was just picked up failing getting this working properly I'll just hold that up to the microphone and we'll call it a day do you want me to read a merch message?

Starting point is 01:10:02 sure yeah why don't we do a merch message while Bell tries to figure out what's going on with that audio source uh hey lancin luke first time uh sending a message it's 3 a.m in the netherlands gpu prices are still high here but cpus are fine 3080s are still over a grand why do you think this is and do you think it'll improve? I think it is probably for a combination of reasons. It could be old stock that retailers paid that much for and are clinging to hope that they can recoup their investment. Retailers all kind of being like, hey, you want to not lower? Yeah, cool. That's not too surprising. That would totally make sense to me. I would check the used market. That kind of collusion is technically illegal in basically every developed country around the world.

Starting point is 01:10:49 But absolutely happens. But absolutely happens. I would say that it's possible that, you know, given the Netherlands is a relatively small market, it's possible that the allocations of GPUs just weren't as high in that region. So there's not as much overstock pressure on pricing, just not driving it down. I would say that if I was trying to protect the profits in my region,

Starting point is 01:11:17 I would be doing my utmost to keep additional stock from flooding in. It's also possible that there's not, I don't know, I'm just guessing, it's possible there's not a huge mining community there. So maybe the secondary market isn't being flooded with GPUs right now like it is in other regions like China and the US.

Starting point is 01:11:35 And so again, that's another potential source of pressure on pricing that might not exist there. And those are the main reasons that I can that I can think of. There's another one. Hey, Linus patiently waiting for party shirts to come back and stock smiley face having recently switched to the Asus PG 42 UQ. Any complaints or issues like image ghosting? Are they Windows Snap productivity friendly? Thanks. All right, well, two parts of that. One is ghosting. Heck no. It's a really nice display.

Starting point is 01:12:09 Really liking it so far. As for AeroSnap, or what is it called now? Windows Snap? AeroSnap's cooler. I mean, it's an OLED. I haven't owned it long enough to tell you with certainty

Starting point is 01:12:22 that it will not burn in in any way along those lines. Hopefully it won't. Yeah, really. But I mean, I don't know what to tell you. If I had to buy it and I really had the longevity of the product as a central concern in my purchase decision it would give me pause i'll say that much linus did you notice any significant spikes on either the store or your own traffic on youtube with the mkbhd collab also is there anything else you are acquiring for the lab that you are uber excited about oh uh yeah sure i mean first of all

Starting point is 01:13:06 yeah of course there was definitely definitely an increase in traffic to the store from the uh from the marquez video i i i don't know that it was like you know it wasn't like uh a giant spike like we saw when project farms review went out But I think that it's also a really different type of media. For sure. Project Farms video was hyper-focused. And people watch a video like that when their purchase intent is like, here, they are buying a screwdriver.

Starting point is 01:13:38 They are shopping. Whereas someone watching Marques build a computer, that person might not buy a screwdriver for six months and they might go, I need a screwdriver. Oh yeah, I saw that one. That type of situation is more like you're trying to get it in the mind space of these people so that when they do buy one, they would think about it

Starting point is 01:13:59 instead of the Project Farm one where it's like they're probably going to buy one and they might do it now considering they're watching that video. Yeah. I mean, here, it's the classic. It's the classic. It's the sales funnel. Okay, this is like business basics right here.

Starting point is 01:14:16 Let's bring this up. Yeah, here we go. What is happening? I think pizza's arriving. Hey, thanks, Ape Prime. Why is there pizza? Why are you still here? What a guy.

Starting point is 01:14:25 I went to Costco. You went to Costco. Why is there pizza? Why are you still here? What a guy. I went to Costco. You went to Costco? This is Costco pizza? It's on my way. Oh, wow. Thanks. Thanks for the pizza, man. I'm not going to say no.

Starting point is 01:14:36 Man, and you've improved the beauty of the WAN show like tenfold. Okay. Are you having a pizza? Oh, no. He's thinking about it. He's not doing it. Okay, well, I'll have two pizzas then. I'm going to have his. Thank you. That works, yeah.

Starting point is 01:14:53 There was another part of that too, which was is there anything else you're acquiring for the lab that you're uber excited about? And he's eating. Okay, well. I can do a different one. We can come back to that can you think of anything acquiring for the lab so it would have to be like or developing i think it doesn't really matter developing for sure yeah let's talk about some stuff uh we have a we've a mission we've

Starting point is 01:15:21 talked about this on the show before but we have a machine learning computer vision developer coming on staff, which this might sound kind of lame. But one of the reasons why I'm really excited about that is because one of our other developers who's been spending a lot of time doing that and is good at that and has experience in that will be able to spend more time working on the mobile testing stuff. Yeah. testing stuff yeah so here's something really cool that is right in line with that is we are going to be getting our hands not only on an anechoic chamber for like noise isolation but we're going to be getting an rf chamber that will um that will eliminate rf bounces and what that will allow us to do is objectively determine band by band. So we'll be able to tell you carrier by carrier, which phones have the best reception,

Starting point is 01:16:11 which is something that is otherwise. I mean, I think everyone's basically given up on even trying to talk about reception of cell phones and reviews. Yeah. Because unless you have accounts with every carrier in every major city, what do you even, how do you even have that conversation, right? Like how do you even test it?

Starting point is 01:16:32 And there's so many real world variables. But what we'll be able to do is we'll be able to set up our own, and it turns out you are allowed to do this, we'll be able to set up our own access points and we we will be able to run them in whatever bands we want. Yeah, I know, right? Is this inside the chamber? Yes. Okay.

Starting point is 01:16:52 Yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know. I'm still kind of surprised, but sure, sounds good. Yeah, it turns out we are allowed to do that, and so we will be able to tell you guys objectively which phones have the best RF reception. Cool. Sweet. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:17:08 Isn't that awesome? We also apparently already have on order slash all the materials and we're going to build it. I can't remember, but we're working on like an immersion tank so that we can, it's like a water column. And so we'll be able to immerse devices for their rated depth for their rated amount of time and see if they survive um yeah that's cool i just i'm i'm happy the dev team is expanding there's also uh the back-end developer that you know relatively

Starting point is 01:17:41 actually quite high-end position where they're working before and had a vacation planned. So there's a bunch of time buffer there before they were able to join. They're joining soon as well. So work on the website is going to start. So yeah, I don't know. That stuff's exciting. While you two, I'm going to move on to the next question, which I can talk about. I'm sure you'll have input as well, though. Do you, this is from Joseph L. do you see cloud computing eventually phasing out the need for powerful personal computers especially with rising costs of new hardware my ai professor thinks it's going to happen real soon um i don't i don't think it's going to happen real soon uh for the same reason that we when we were just

Starting point is 01:18:22 talking about the logitech g cloud um and it was like oh what do you think about this having e-sim and stuff yeah there's like power outages and and uh service availability issues um i was just in america for four days your guys's internet sucks um so i wouldn't necessarily want to be at least where i was it sure did sick burn so i wouldn't necessarily want to be on a computer that at my current job and at very likely many of yours uh being consistently connected is required like it I can't if there's if there's a internet problem if there's an internet outage my computer can't just stop working like yeah I might be limited in what I can do because I don't have the internet,

Starting point is 01:19:08 but it shouldn't just like end everything. And taking a computer that can, that is powerful personal, you know, powerful personal computer is what it said. Taking that and hotspotting it and limiting what you necessarily, maybe don't listen to streaming music while you're working for that amount of time or something, but you can still function because a lot of it's happening locally is great and with cloud computing that's not so

Starting point is 01:19:29 much of a thing yeah and i mean there's going to be i feel like we're we're headed towards a an increase in awareness of the fact that you just you nothing is permanent anymore um very recently project cars 2 in fact it might have been today project cars 2 got delisted from steam and the reason for that is not that they don't want to sell the game anymore or not that steam is just tired of having it on their servers it's that the licenses for the cars in the game have expired and i guess it's not selling well enough to justify renewing it. Or for the developer to go in and tweak all the names and tweak the appearances a little bit. And kind of remove those assets. And so now it's just gone unless you own it already.

Starting point is 01:20:17 And there's no way to acquire it anymore. Because it cannot be properly licensed for acquisition. Because there are no physical copies. So you can't buy it secondhand anymore. And I think, you know, if you think about like a workstation where your hardware itself is a subscription service, you are at the mercy of forces that you cannot control. And in the case of most users, do not fully understand

Starting point is 01:20:45 to make sure that you have the tools you need to do your job. I mean, and especially with, okay, yes, at the high end, it's gotten ridiculous. But with the affordability of personal hardware at the low to mid range,

Starting point is 01:21:02 that's what you're competing against. That's exactly the problem with the Logitech G Cloud or whatever you're calling it. You're going to have to make a cloud working station that is so much cheaper than just having your own computer

Starting point is 01:21:14 that it becomes worth it to subscribe to a system. But having your own computer is so cheap. Yeah. So it's tough. So these lines are going to have a hard time crossing. I don't know.

Starting point is 01:21:28 I don't personally think your AI professor is correct, but I don't know. Hold on. I think there are industries and there are spaces. Oh, it's going to be a thing. Where that will happen faster. It's already a thing. Like, I don't think once we could get it down to like one frame of

Starting point is 01:21:46 latency and if we could get the quality a bit better i don't see any reason why like a video editing workstation couldn't be cloud-based then you don't have to deal with updating yourself so another development station no because then if your net goes out another argument i'd throw out there tough i don't know is i i was working on a laptop this week um and i it was kept in very nice condition like the person who owned it very clearly cared about it so i didn't actually realize how old it was there was a there was a little uh, what was it? Windows 7 or Windows 8 sticker on it that had a 4000 series Intel processor. I didn't even notice because I wasn't gaming on it.

Starting point is 01:22:32 All I did was like document browsing, internet browsing, stuff like that. And it was completely fine. You know how much that laptop would cost? Like nothing. Yeah, you can get laptops on eBay for literally like 60 to 70 dollars and you know what the battery life probably not great anymore but if all you need to do we actually have

Starting point is 01:22:52 a video coming up on um chrome os flex and so we talk about like how um how tough it is to justify a brand new chromebook when you can buy an ancient ThinkPad, put Chrome OS Flex on it, and let's go! Yeah. Right? I don't know if there's news about that. Oh, there is. There is news about this. The framework thing.

Starting point is 01:23:15 Yeah, cool, right? Yeah, it's interesting. Not that it would be easy to justify buying a framework laptop with Chrome OS now that you have Chrome OS Flex. Well, we'll get into that in a little bit more detail later. But for now, I wanted to show you guys the sales funnel. This is what I was talking about. So I feel like Marques' video is up here. Awareness of a company and or its offerings. Maybe somewhere in interest in the company and its offerings. Whereas Project Farm is down here. Evaluation of whether the company is offering satisfy one's needs. And then, you know, this is really, you know, at the product page level. So when you're marketing,

Starting point is 01:23:51 you have to decide what you're targeting and your approach is really different depending on what it is. I'm expecting the Marquez video to result in a very slow burn of sales. I know I'll say I'll say now we know we have not gotten an roi on it at this point in time but that doesn't mean that like i'm mad or that i i think it was bad or anything like that i think it just is a different it had a different goal from the outset so you have to you have to adjust your expectations accordingly like the backup pop-up we lost a ton of money oh yeah but that wasn't the point the point wasn't to make money the point was to get enough people there that we could get

Starting point is 01:24:30 real user reviews up on the site so that we could launch sales for pre-orders uh excuse me back orders that's the distinction once we had sold them they're now back orders um so that we could take back orders for the rest of the inventory that we had coming in. Bell, are we able to come full circle back around to our Linus Tech Tips on Espanola? Do you think you have the audio figured out? I don't know what's wrong. So maybe it'll work this time. I've checked and rechecked everything and it in theory should work.

Starting point is 01:25:01 Okay. Well, why don't we give it another shot here and uh we'll see what happens nope all right phone time Well that's a little frustrating Yeah let's just do that Unfortunately you're not going to get 100% of the experience through the phone You're really not Part of the experience is visual Which I'll talk about afterwards

Starting point is 01:25:35 No no I'm going to play this and I'm going to try and time it So that they're going at the same time So we'll try But then also obviously like sound quality problems I know I know We're just going to have to do our best with it Keep that in mind So weird

Starting point is 01:25:49 So weird Okay ready Here we go Hold up Line of screen Okay we're gonna try We're gonna try We're trying

Starting point is 01:26:03 You are as good as dead Okay, we're going to try. We're going to try. We're going to try. Okay? We're trying. We're trying. Okay. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead.

Starting point is 01:26:08 You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead.

Starting point is 01:26:14 You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are as good as dead. You are So you guys got to see it kind of go through all the different stages. And I mean, to be clear, I don't speak Spanish, but we do have someone on the team who does. And her evaluation of both the translation from the English transcript to the Spanish transcript, as well as the spoken version of it, was that it was pretty darn good, was what she said. Yeah. People will be darn disappointed

Starting point is 01:27:12 when they realize Linus speaks zero Spanish. Yeah, yeah. So people are saying, yeah, sounds a little funny, but understandable. You could still hear the editor's voice in the last one. It's because he doesn't speak Spanish at all That was just Ed Using his voice for the pickup

Starting point is 01:27:30 We would use a different trainer I think It's cool though right? It's sweet, that's really cool Yeah I'm I'm pretty Pretty shocked The browser tab was not muted Because OBS was seeing I'm pretty, pretty shocked. Um,

Starting point is 01:27:45 the browser tab was not muted because OBS was seeing. Yeah. I had, I was seeing levels on the display. I'm like, I actually, I can't explain it. We,

Starting point is 01:27:52 we have something set oddly in OBS. It's gotta be it. Bye. See you later. Thanks for the pizza. Prime. All right. Uh,

Starting point is 01:27:59 do we have another topic we wanted to move into? We sure do. We got a few of them. Um, Ooh, we should talk about the big change in, oh, I don't know. You know what?

Starting point is 01:28:08 No, you pick one because I'm, oh man, what a bad week for Twitch. There's a lot of things going on. Why don't we talk about Twitch? You want to walk us through a Twitch thing? Sure. I actually didn't know the thing that's in the doc was happening.

Starting point is 01:28:21 I saw this when I came in today. There's a lot happening with Twitch right now. But this thing is that Twitch announces revenue splitting changes, and apparently no one's happy. On Wednesday, the 21st, Twitch started notifying some streamers about incoming changes or upcoming changes to their user agreements. Twitch uses a baseline revenue share of 50-50 on net revenue from subscriptions. I was just going to say this, but it's in the notes, so I'll just read it from the notes. Behind the scenes, Twitch also offered agreements with premium subscription terms to select larger streamers. A lot of larger streamers, I'm inserting this bit, were on 70-30

Starting point is 01:28:59 for a long time. That's not a new thing. And that's been known. That's been relatively publicly known because of leaks for many years. These premium subscription terms are common knowledge within the streamer community, but there's no framework in place to determine which streamers would be offered these premium terms or when to offer them. That is 100% true. The decision was made over a year ago to stop offering these premium terms. Do we have premium terms? Did we ever? For Floatplane? No, for Twitch. No, obviously we get the money from Floatplane.

Starting point is 01:29:33 I don't think we did. Okay. Yeah, I just wasn't sure. I have no idea, though. All I really cared about the contract back in the day was like, what does it not let us do? Which wasn't much. So it was like, cool. Decision was made over a year ago

Starting point is 01:29:47 to stop offering these premium terms. Twitch felt they were not transparent or consistent in awarding them. That's probably true. Streamers already with these terms will keep them, but 70-30 split for the first 100K and a 50-50 split for all revenue generated after 100k oh seems like streaming is expensive and amazon wants twitch to actually make money for once

Starting point is 01:30:16 and that's going to be hard not going to work interesting twitch says roughly 90% of streamers with premium terms are unaffected because, you know, they don't make over 100K. For the 10% recent bump in advertising revenue share up from 55%, for what? Up to. For the 10%. Okay, I get it. I get it. I read it wrong.

Starting point is 01:30:39 For the 10% remaining after that 90%, a recent revenue bump in advertising revenue share up to 55% is a great way for these larger streamers to make up most, if not all of that revenue. Great way, that's inserted from Twitch, just to be very clear, because no one likes ads. More than 22,000 streamers requested that all streamers be moved to the 70-30 split and pay streamers faster. It sounds like that's probably 22,000 streamers that didn't already have the 70-30 split. Twitch responded by making the in quotes, largest change to payouts in years, and they lowered the payment threshold from $100 to $50. That is actually really intense, because there's going to be a really large amount of

Starting point is 01:31:26 people that stream in order to make 50 bucks for tax reasons that I'm not going to go into in further detail. Really? Because I'm super curious. Is it something you really can't talk about? If you make money off it, it could technically be a business. Things that show up on it could be used against taxes. Oh, so as long as you get some kind of payout. You have to get some kind of payout. That payout was $100. Now it's $50. It's way easier to do. And if you want to be shady about it, you can just pay the $50 in yourself. You're going to get 50% of it back so it's 25

Starting point is 01:32:07 to be a business so your gaming computer yes business expense whatever you show on stream what if you do more expensive things uh we are not accountants we are not lawyers i'm not saying you should do this we're not what i'm saying is that it's been done by people it has not been done by me allegedly allegedly it's been done by people it's like super sketch but i knew it was being done at 100 and i know it's going to be a whole heck of a lot easier to do at 50 that's all okay um twitch justified not increasing to 70 30 by stating that a streamer with 100 concurrent viewers who streams for 200 hours a month costs the company a thousand dollars over those 200 hours yeah and they're the ones that make all the tech and host the servers streaming is expensive man okay um as hilarious as part of

Starting point is 01:33:07 these changes twitch i'm actually surprised it's like even that low to be completely honest and i think that is because they make all the tech and i guarantee that that does not include developer time for maintaining these things and stuff like that but anyways um as part of these changes twitch is also cracking down on streams that promote certain types of gambling starting out uh starting october 18th i think this is cool i've never liked gambling my entire life though i don't i don't know um slots roulette or dice games that aren't in the that aren't in the u.S. or other jurisdictions that provide sufficient consumer protection are banned? Okay. Prior to this, prominent streamers were publicly considering

Starting point is 01:33:50 a Twitch blackout to protest the site's implicit promotion of damaging and addictive gambling behavior. It's pretty intense. There's a lot of it. With that said, sports gambling, not banned. Yeah, because Twitch and the NFL are friends. And I think relatively based on the overall length of the NFL, the NFL being cool with gambling is actually relatively new as well. But they do seem to be quite cool with gambling these days.

Starting point is 01:34:21 So that's a thing. Poker also remains unbanned. I think because to a decent amount of people it's seen more like a sport than other forms of gambling that um yeah which does actually sort of make sense to me playing sports for money but that's also gambling but also playing the game it's i can see poker i'd see as kind of a weird gray area yeah where there's at least a skill component yeah like like i'm not knocking like poker players like yes there's a skill component but you also can't deny that there is a chance component um if i try to play poker against someone who's super good at it

Starting point is 01:34:56 i'm probably going to get wrecked yeah there's more to it than just chance but there is a lot of chance um discussion question is this enough or should streamers continue to push for full gambling ban oh it's just about the gambling ban i don't know i'm not into gambling but i also have to understand that that's a personal preference thing i i'm not gonna watch gambling content i'm not gonna get influenced by gambling content if twitch actually had a meaningful way to um to keep minors off the site which they don't because it's as far as i can tell like no one does all kids watching unless you like take ids yeah um unless they unless they have a way to do that i think gambling has been pretty clearly set as an adult activity

Starting point is 01:35:41 and i i don't really see why we're drawing a line between, oh, well, this kind of gambling and this kind of gambling, when we know that such a large, large percentage of the Twitch viewer community is sub-age of majority. So that's my biggest issue with it. Beyond that, as far as i'm concerned you want to stream yourself like i i don't i don't i don't know you flip a coin and if it's heads you you know shoot a paintball at your head and if it's tails you shoot a paintball

Starting point is 01:36:19 at your ass and you pay 10 bucks like i don't i don't care i might watch that yeah like i would watch that if it was you. I would 100% watch that. I would probably pay the stream money. I'm just saying, like, yeah, and, you know, Twitch chat, you know, being all dialed into Twitch and stuff, they're like, yeah, what about loot boxes? Yeah, 100%.

Starting point is 01:36:36 Yeah. Bad loot boxes. Someone in Full Plane Chat mentioned... Ban opening Pokemon cards. Red Dead Redemption 2 and GTA Online. In GTA Online, if you go to the casino Do you get banned? In Red Dead Redemption 2

Starting point is 01:36:50 They have poker I think they also have other card game things Well it's poker so no But like You can extrapolate from there For me the bigger conversation Is the revenue split changes That is especially In light of how aggressively YouTube has pursued.

Starting point is 01:37:11 I think I remember saying, back when YouTube was like, yeah, YouTube gaming. I remember saying, good luck with that, YouTube. I mean, it's been a long time. Yeah. I feel like they've only really been picking up a ton of steam within the last one to two years but i mean that's google right but they are picking up steam long game long game long game i mean i was at the game that they're winning in the way that mixer couldn't when mixer did their big move i remember talking

Starting point is 01:37:41 on wancho about how it wasn't enough. Yeah. Their move wasn't enough. They didn't bring over enough streamers. And what YouTube streaming is really winning at right now is, sure, they're paying to bring some streamers over. There's also streamers just coming on over. Yeah. And not a small amount of them. And not just tiny ones that cost $1,000 a month for them to sustain them. Yeah, because there's an army of those, I'm sure.

Starting point is 01:38:10 Because they'll see their favorite streamer move over, so they'll move over too. Which is, that's completely fine. But we're talking like really big streamers that are either approaching YouTube and then doing it for a lower amount than YouTube might have expected, or approaching YouTube and doing it for nothing. Maybe a little bit of seed money to make a cool video where they pick a purple, they pick a red object over a purple object, because that's what happens every single time. I can definitely see YouTube pushing hard. The Machuski in Twitch chat says, I heard Ludwig is working with YouTube and BTTV and 7TV extensions.

Starting point is 01:38:48 That's pretty interesting. Because, I mean, there's no doubt that YouTube does not have feature parody with Twitch yet. Yeah. Ludwig's chat thing is really cool, though. Like, they've actually put in work. I've looked into the developer behind it. He's doing cool stuff i finally met him oh ludwig yeah yeah he's at the thing i'm assuming yeah cool yeah super cool um he asked me if after you get a vasectomy um you can still come

Starting point is 01:39:19 and uh so i explained that sounds like a question he would ask I explained how it works This is why I like the podcast Yeah He's knowledgeable about a lot of things Just not that But now maybe he is right Ever expanding Oh well now he's an expert

Starting point is 01:39:38 Because I actually I gave him the full lowdown Perfect Did you tell him about how the doctor recognized you and everything? No, I didn't talk about that. Because he might need to know that. He doesn't now. Yeah, I didn't. I actually forgot about that.

Starting point is 01:39:52 That'll be a fun experience. To be honest with you. Probably hear about it on the yard. Yep. All right. Well, I don't know. The revenue split stuff sucks. Oh, my God.

Starting point is 01:40:00 Twitch chat. Well, can you? Don't leave us hanging. Yes. Carry on. The revenue split stuff, as a creator, having especially a streamer, a streamer who hasn't done

Starting point is 01:40:14 the proper, I talked about this a few whenshows ago, but a streamer who hasn't done the split out into having a heavy arm for VOD as well, because a lot of streamers have been doing that. I think that's actually really fascinating. If you want to look into that, it's very interesting. But streamers who are just streamers, they, in a lot of cases, don't even have a huge Twitter presence. They're just, they're streamers. They're on Twitch. That's what they do.

Starting point is 01:40:37 Having your revenue split changed on you is very, my stream deck stopped working, but I press the bleep button it's very uncomfortable with the F word in the middle of there like holy that's not cool well that shakes your trust in the platform absolutely and that's going to inspire you

Starting point is 01:40:54 to reach out spread out start doing other things these people are many people affected by this they're going to start looking into those other streamers other creators

Starting point is 01:41:01 that have started branching out into other things they're going to start doing it and I need to the dumb thing from Twitch's standpoint is that they basically took their most profitable users

Starting point is 01:41:10 their most profitable users and pissed them off. Yep. Daddy Amazon's knocking. You gotta start making money. Daddy Jeff. Bandwidth's expensive. Oh man to start making money. Daddy Jeff. You got to. Bandwidth's expensive.

Starting point is 01:41:27 Oh man. This is just so dumb. Transcoding's expensive. So dumb. So good luck with that. In other news, Framework partnered with Google for a Framework laptop Chromebook edition.

Starting point is 01:41:40 This is cool. It'll be available in early December, starting at $1,000. That's a lot for a chromebook it is the base specs are core i5 12 it says 1240p but i'm pretty sure that means 12 400p i don't know don't quote me on that 8 gigs ddr4 256 gig nvme ssd 13 and a half inch aspect ratio or 13 and a half inch 3d by aspect ratio, 2256x50.04 resolution display. It can have up to 64 gigs of RAM and a 1TB SSD because of course it can. It's a framework. And it's got the same milled aluminum chassis, 1080p webcam, 55 watt hour battery, all that good stuff. And the same modules and

Starting point is 01:42:18 expansion cards as for any other framework laptop. The main board in the Chromebook edition is specifically designed for Chrome OS though, and there's no word yet on Windows compatibility. Framework Chromebooks will get up to eight years of Chromebook OS updates, but a main board upgrade from Framework could extend that timeline. Pre-orders are available now for a fully refundable $100. Full disclosure, I am an investor in Framework. With that said, I think you guys probably pretty clearly picked up on that I think $1,000 for a Chromebook is a lot of money, regardless of how repairable or how invested I am in the company.

Starting point is 01:42:55 So I'll let Luke do the color commentary on this one. Just a discussion question. That's it. I don't don't know sure just what do you think i'm not super into chromebooks all righty then this is not the framework that i would buy okay but i have already heard from people that want to buy it and we're really excited that framework has a chromebook option now which i don't personally 100% understand, but that's cool. Sweet. More options is not bad. I'm excited that Framework is expanding and doing more things. BlahX9 says, if we want to save LTT money, should we watch on Twitch or YouTube?

Starting point is 01:43:40 No. If you have a Floatplane subscription, you should watch on Floatplane. Yeah, you're paying somewhere between $5 and $10 a month, assuming you're not one of the grandfathered in $3 subscriptions. And that's fine. We want to use the platform. Yeah, we're profitable at those kinds of rates. Where you run into trouble is when it's ad supported because ads pay like nothing compared to actual subscribed users. Like we've got 30 000 floatplane subscribers

Starting point is 01:44:07 now which is absolutely wild you guys are amazing um and the last thing we would want is for you guys to not enjoy the better audio quality on floatplane if you're gonna have to listen to us talk for like three hours yeah you should get what you're paying for yeah stick around stick around also the chat's way better um i had a good question though from floatplane chat actually floatplane chat has been slightly less deplorable than usual uh your boy hot pocket asks so what's the solution for twitch if they need more money better to take a piece from the top percent than the streamers who made considerably less yeah so that's what i was actually going to go into is like yes it's extremely uncomfortable

Starting point is 01:44:44 but when daddy amazon is knocking saying you need to make money their rates are unsustainable they have to do something but this it it's just it always happens yeah it's like we've had this we've had this conversation with so many creators talking about coming over on full plane where they'll be like well patreon has a better revenue split or insert platform here has a better revenue split and we're like okay well see how that works out for you because we know what it costs and at some point at some point the investors are gonna come knocking and they can't just keep dumping money into it why do you think YouTube has so many f***ing ads? And the whole name and like...

Starting point is 01:45:29 Why do you think they're pushing premium so hard? Yeah. And luckily, premium is actually pretty good. Yeah. The fact that you have like music as part of it is like what justifies it for me. If the music wasn't there, I wouldn't do it. Easily. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:45:43 But yeah, I don't know. It's tough but the the the idea behind the name of flow plane which is not something that we like put on the site and whatnot because it's not good for advertising but it's good internally i guess the whole idea behind it is you know what a flow plane is seaplane whatever the concept is it might not take off but it definitely won't sink. So from the very beginning and the whole time through we've kept in our minds, we need to make sure that what we're doing is sustainable. And there was a big question from a bunch of creators when they were first joining because YouTube paid channels, which is different than memberships, YouTube paid

Starting point is 01:46:21 channels, uh, went up in smoke exactly one year, exactly to the day, which was very interesting. One year after Vessel went up in smoke. So a lot of creators around the beginning were asking, are you guys going to be able to survive for a long time? Hello? Yes, we did. I love, we should go back and respond.

Starting point is 01:46:41 Remember when I pitched you the concept of having like a wall of hate? Yeah. Where we would like frame, we would frame people's comments about how Floatplane was doomed and going to shut down and Luke would be unemployed in a year

Starting point is 01:46:53 and like all that stuff. And I had pitched like doing an entire wall plastered in all those stupid comments. I think I have some of them, but then I should have done it. But yeah, we're still here because we've we've tried to build it sustainably and in some ways that does sure that does make it less

Starting point is 01:47:09 attractive it makes it a little bit less competitive it makes it slower to develop yeah but that's a lot of things stuff like this happens on twitch and stuff like this has never happened with us and we're like lol we're actually trying i'm making no commitments and I'm making no commitments on timeline or anything like that, but we're trying to bring our rates and stuff down to go the other direction than what they're doing. Yeah, well, I mean, our team's been amazing. It's a small team, but it's a good team.

Starting point is 01:47:35 And my understanding is that our costs have, aside from some issues lately, our costs have actually gone down in some ways i know that they haven't gone down in other ways but they have come down in some ways so we're we're we're holding up we're holding up great over here yeah we're doing good yeah we're all right but yeah like stuff like this is gonna happen which uncomfortable. But the same advice that we've always given, if any creator is watching that cares to hear it, is to diversify.

Starting point is 01:48:11 Get into merch stuff. If you're a Twitch-only streamer, start putting some VODs on YouTube. Start finding a way to VODify some of your content, whether that's planning out content that is specifically made to become a VOD, get an editor, get them to watch your streams

Starting point is 01:48:29 and find interesting segments and cut them out and title them properly and thumbnail them properly and throw them up, do whatever, but diversify, get yourself out there. Even if you don't do like traditional YouTube VODs, you should absolutely be doing shorts, which leads us really well into our next topic here. This is straight out of the YouTube blog, but this week YouTube announced

Starting point is 01:48:49 that starting early 2023, creators will be eligible for revenue sharing on shorts, but it's going to work really differently from the way that the revenue share works for the traditional YouTube partner program. And there's some actually pretty good reasons for it. I don't agree with everything YouTube does. I think I've made it very clear to everyone. I think internally here, I talk about it a lot. I think outwardly on the WAN show and in our videos, I talk about it a lot and I definitely talk about it to YouTube employees and executives a lot. I do not agree with everything YouTube does. But this I'm looking at going, I actually do not have a better solution to this. It's pretty smart. So with traditional VOD or a

Starting point is 01:49:35 livestream like this one on YouTube, the ads that run against your video are credited to you and then you split it i forget what exactly the split percentage is but you split it with youtube and you keep your part they keep their part and everybody's happy but here's the problem with shorts you don't have an ad like against your short the ad is going to be between some shorts and not all of them and not all of them so it can't be just like luck of the draw you happen to get ads in front of your shorts and then you get paid and so what the next three people that didn't get ads they just don't get paid well that's stupid right so um the revenue from ads that run between shorts are going to be put into a pool okay but it's a little complicated because there's kind of two pools. There's one

Starting point is 01:50:27 pool for shorts that do not have licensed music. And there's another pool for shorts that contain licensed music. So like popular music, and we'll talk about why they have to do that in a little bit. So of the pool, creators will keep 45% of the revenue, so of that bucket, based on their share of total shorts views. And that's the same whether they use music or not. The difference is that in the music bucket, the rights holders for the music get paid first before the split between creators and YouTube. And the reason for that is that YouTube and the music industry had to do something about

Starting point is 01:51:08 TikTok. It's clear that one of the most compelling things about TikTok is that you can use popular songs and dance to them or lip sync to them or do whatever else it is with them as your soundtrack for no cost. And the reason for that is that ByteDance just doesn't respect copyright. So they just are like, eh. Yeah, pretty much.

Starting point is 01:51:32 So I guess in a way, you could look at that as a positive overall for the industry because it forced, it forced the recording industry to come to the table and find a f***ing solution which is good because we've actually looked into licensing real songs for our videos before the costs make no sense there's all this just stupid red tape like it's utterly unattainable for anyone who's not a fairly large scale production like it just doesn't make any sense. If I'm only going to make $400 on this

Starting point is 01:52:05 video, no, I'm not going to pay you $10,000 for an expiring license for the music. So what, I have to take the video down after? What are you, an idiot? Like, no, I'm not going to do that. It's not like people are using this video to listen to the song. It's just for a montage. Like go touch grass. Like it's just dumb. Get out in the real world. It's not how this works. So what it did is it forced the music industry, and YouTube didn't tell me any of this. This is all speculation, but it's just very obvious.

Starting point is 01:52:34 It forced the recording industry to come to the table and make a deal. Because otherwise TikTok is just going to run amok forever, and there's going to be no way to combat that aspect of the platform. So this is a super smart way to do it because it rewards creators no matter what, whether they license music or don't license music, whether they get an ad in front of their video, they don't get an ad in front of their video. And what it looks like, at least on the surface, I haven't seen the payout rates yet, but what it looks like is that compared to TikTok, it is going to all of a sudden become sustainable to make short form videos and not just have to do sponsorships.

Starting point is 01:53:24 Like to actually enjoy a share of the ad based revenue from the platform, which TikTok famously does not give anyone so they just steal music uh take all the revenue from their users and are like that well yeah no screw you too like why why are we tolerating this i don't get it it's been very weird you you were talking to uh call me chris and you you talked about revenue share stuff right yeah like that's like it's a it's a joke on tiktok they get like nothing yeah crazy um shorts creators are added to the partner program if they get 10 million shorts views in the last 90 days and have a thousand subscribers um creators can still get into the youtube partner program with 4 000 watch hours over the last year as well so there's there's two get into the YouTube Partner Program with 4,000 watch hours over the last year as well. So there's two paths into the Partner Program.

Starting point is 01:54:08 That's a lot of watch hours on shorts content. So it's going to result in you being a big creator either way. Also launching next year is Creator Music, which will allow creators to purchase a license or opt for revenue sharing for commercial songs they might want to use in their long format videos, which is super cool. Really cool.

Starting point is 01:54:23 Our discussion question here from Jonathan Horst is, is there a place for commercial music in ltd videos yes um i was about to say well i'm sure as hell not sharing my revenue with them and i'm probably not going to pay whatever they're going to ask so probably not we pay very little for our existing music library and we've never had a complaint about our music i guess i'd have to narrow it down there's one specific uh i almost said creator warehouse i don't know why one specific channel super fun video yo yes that one yeah i i yeah i you know what i even re-upload it with the proper kenny loggins playing with the boys song yeah i would do it i'll pay for it sure yeah okay i'll commit to that if there if there was a way to

Starting point is 01:55:00 effectively do it that you knew was good and maybe the pricing wasn't just literally the worst thing in the world uh i could see it being used for hyper specific content but that's about it yeah uh sam joe x asks why can't youtube remove these dumb monetization requirements since they did it to prevent ads from showing on stolen videos and they monetize everything anyway now uh the answer is because it's a it's a ton of administrative work to pay people out. And sorry, but like the $4 or whatever is just not actually worth the administrative burden for them. That's my that's my best guess. But I'm guessing. As for like shorts, I could see us using it since there doesn't really seem to be a penalty for just using it. If we're if we're gonna have to like kind of pay for it anyway, then I guess we might as well just go for it but i don't know what kind of shorts that i would do

Starting point is 01:55:50 that would require licensed music it's just one of those things that i'm so conditioned to avoid yeah you know even if i'm i don't think it's needed anyways for the type of content that do i whatever oh ho ho someone in full plane chat said rick roll us you could rick roll people wow yeah that makes sense does rick roll return because you can monetize it now i wouldn't be able to rick roll them on float plane though yeah get owned my license would be platform specific yeah get owned well no i mean that's that's bad okay get on it get the ria on the phone because i want you to rickroll people on full plan and got you boys let's go oh my god we should probably get into some super chats here we don't do those here oh we're crying out loud stop calling them super chats why do i keep calling

Starting point is 01:56:43 them super chat come on all right we calling them super chats? Come on. All right. We have another topic. Do we only have five merch messages today? Is this right? The pending ones. Oh, okay. Do you want me to go through this video game donkey topic

Starting point is 01:56:58 while you look at some potentials? Yeah, sure. YouTuber Video Game Donkey starts game publishing company big mode also known as uh his plan is for indie games indie game publishing company video game donkey is a popular video game reviewer very true 7.2 million subscribers 11 years of youtube videos almost 1 million followers on twitch him and his partner leah are starting a publishing company known as Big Mode, a passionate voice for quality, originality and fun indie games. He's also asked for indie studios to apply. The form asks mostly standard questions, but there's a box to tick at the bottom to confirm that your game doesn't

Starting point is 01:57:39 include NFTs, crypto or blockchain technology. And there is elsewhere on the site where it says that they are not interested in those as well. The online community has had some opinions. There's been a lot of people weighing in on this, which is pretty interesting. Danny O'Dwyer from Noclip says, among many other things, including things that are slightly more positive, like wishing them good luck and stuff like that, if I remember correctly. There is one quote though, in his many tweets, where he says, we got to drop the naive shtick that having opinions on games is a qualification for understanding just about anything about development.

Starting point is 01:58:16 And I will add in square brackets or publishing. Rami Ismail, which I hope, hopefully pronounce that correctly. Vlambeer co-founder says, if what a publisher has proven is money and a YouTube channel, assume the worst case scenario for your business considerations. They might F up those and thus the game might never ship or not be supported. I will also say that again, in the expanded portion of his tweets, there was more positive notes. And he mentioned that a way kind of around this is to ask for more money until the publisher is more proven, which seems pretty reasonable. Flambier's been around for a while. That probably

Starting point is 01:58:57 comes from knowledge and experience. Oh, you put the thing in front. The Celeste developer, The, oh, you put the thing in front. The Celeste developer, Noel Berry. Hopefully I'm saying that right as well. Noel? Noel. Noel is pro-Dunkey. I don't have exact quote from the tweets,

Starting point is 01:59:12 but you can look them up. And then Mike Rose, who I don't remember. I think he started a publisher. Here, I've got my, I've got it up. Three different huge YouTubers, not Dunkey, asked for calls with me in the last 18 months saying they're starting their own publisher and could they get some advice so pretty sure we're about to see an influx of i could do that youtubers having a pop at publishing yeah yep yep yep it's interesting it's very interesting there's a lot of i could do that youtubers right now

Starting point is 01:59:46 yeah i could make a screwdriver yeah exactly i think it's pretty interesting i think it's pretty cool if i was an indie developer would i hitch my horse onto this hitch my carriage onto this horse there we go i got there um i don't know not so about that. I'd be interested in maybe talking to him. But I think Rami Ismail's comments were actually very good, if you read through his stuff. I'm going to make an observation. Something that we've realized as part of building products that we think have an appeal beyond just our traditional audience, like the screwdriver, is that we actually don't know pretty much anything about traditional marketing. We have our marketing arm built in to our company because it's like the videos, and it is crazy powerful, super powerful, to the point where, you know, almost anything else just feels like this tiny drop in an infinite bucket by comparison.

Starting point is 02:00:49 Just utter waste of time. But lots of companies, billion-dollar companies, do not market themselves via just making their own YouTube videos, obviously. And so my concern would be that just because you have some business savvy, I like to think I do, doesn't necessarily mean that you actually know anything about these other businesses. And maybe you have the savvy to hire people who know what they're doing, in which case power to you, but maybe you don't. And maybe you don't have that expertise when it comes to HR and business management. And I don't know video game Dunkey. So this is all just me speaking from my own experience and talking about how my own expertise in one area does not necessarily translate to another.

Starting point is 02:01:40 I do know that Dunkey making videos about games has really springboarded those games in the past i do think that they were often fantastic games which is why he made the video about them and they probably would have done pretty well without that but there have also been indie games out there in the past that have not really made it that I think were really good and just didn't make it because the word just didn't get out far enough. Apparently the Celeste developer specifically brought up that Dunkey discovered their game

Starting point is 02:02:16 during development and made a very early video that greatly helped their sales. And that makes sense. I'm a Flanker says, if you're an indie dev, bear in mind that the average game on Steam makes a grand total of $17,000.

Starting point is 02:02:30 So the risk, if you aren't picked up by a mainstream publisher, I don't know what kind of devolves here. Yeah, I guess it's big. So maybe the influencer, yeah, maybe the influencer could do better than $17,000. I mean,

Starting point is 02:02:47 almost certainly, I guess. So then, it's, Daniel Dwyer says some stuff that I think is pretty interesting. Where is it? Give me one sec. I don't know where his comments were.

Starting point is 02:03:02 I thought it was Danny that said it. Apparently that's the average, not median. Yeah, so that's scary. Because that includes games that, you know, make tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah. We'll think about, like, Barrow. There's a lot of junk on Steam. okay no offense barrow barrow barrow 2020 yeah it's mine and luke's favorite game yeah let's see how many let's see if we can sell 17 000 of barrow 2020 at the price i think literally all of you would

Starting point is 02:03:39 have to buy it it's so cheap um danny talks about some of the things that uh video game publishers have to do i think it was danny i don't know maybe it's someone else i don't want to put words in his mouth i can't find the tweet right now so disregard but someone made tweets talking about some of the things that video game publishers have to do and how he questions the ability slash experience of people that haven't ever done it before yeah and basing the entire publisher thing on uh donkey's knowledge and experience with games and also his youtube channel yeah is a lot um when there's other things that publishers do like if i remember correctly it's like finding q QA, getting localization support, getting certain deals from different platforms like consoles and stuff. I would expect my publisher to help me with music licensing, potentially.

Starting point is 02:04:33 I would expect them to make connections for me. There's more stuff to it, traditionally, than just some input, which could be really good, sure. And also being able to advertise it effectively maybe like a smarter way would be for donkey to like and i i again i don't i've never watched one of his videos i i take this for what it is uh but maybe maybe uh a less all-in you, angle would be to find, you know, say you're looking for indie game projects to like invest in, um, be more of like a, like a, like a kingmaker, like a connection, a connection maker, uh, you know, help people get from the point of having like a really good concept to, to getting on board with a more traditional publisher. I don't know. I'm just,

Starting point is 02:05:23 I, if I had to guess, I'd say it probably comes from a good place. Like I'm sure there's problems in the indie publishing space and maybe he's trying to solve them, but maybe there are other ways that that could be done. I mean, who knows? Maybe five years from now, you know, they're going to have a bunch of, you know, really amazing indie games published and they're going to have a bunch of you know really amazing indie games published and they're going to absolutely crush it but i just don't know maybe yeah right well barrow is seven dollars and fifty cents now don't buy it for that i think that's way too

Starting point is 02:05:54 expensive i'm pretty sure it was a dollar yeah don't don't spend more than a dollar on barrow 2020 we bought it as a joke because it was a dollar don't seven dollars is a little bit more than a joke um what's i gonna say yeah i don't know i i do think that there has been a lot of comments made externally without a ton of comments made from donkey the site's up and there's a video and that's it he hasn't responded to anything maybe they i know him and his partner leah started it maybe there's a video. And that's it. He hasn't responded to anything. Maybe they... I know him and his partner Leah started it. Maybe there's more people there. There's a talent search on the website

Starting point is 02:06:33 that says they're hiring people. It does say that they're hiring people involved with making games, not necessarily hiring people involved with publishing. But like... I don't know. I wouldn't write it off yet.

Starting point is 02:06:45 Dunkey's been around for a long time. I'm sure this isn't just like, you know, stupidly made. I'm sure there's a little bit more thought process to it. Hope so. We'll see though. I don't know. The website does obviously feel very early on. The fact that they have a tab for games already, even though they launched like now, is...

Starting point is 02:07:10 Optimistic? Yeah. Takes a while to make things, you know? Okay. Yeah, Conrad from the floatplane team says, I have total faith in Dunkey. All right. All right.

Starting point is 02:07:25 We should do a few more merch messages good job you got it okay I'm a good boy all right first message here from a non people made fun of me when I said a non but I feel like that's correct hey guys decided to buy the sad Linus pad and as a christmas gift for my brother what has been your guys's favorite

Starting point is 02:07:50 gifts you've ever given or received oh one year my girlfriend gave me this like leather it looks like a professor's bag yeah and. And I was like, what? That's weird. But it was heavy. So I was like, okay, there's something in it. And I open it up and she made,

Starting point is 02:08:11 because I'm probably hard to give gifts for because I don't care about all that much. And if I do, I probably have it. So she did something really cool, which was she filled it

Starting point is 02:08:20 as if I was a Pokemon professor going out for like a day. That's hilarious. And it had a lot of things that were like actually really, really cool. And it was genuinely really, really well thought out. And that's like one of the coolest things that I think I've received. Yvonne's made me like a ton of stuff. Like my wallet is handmade.

Starting point is 02:08:42 She made me this like cross-stitched Linus in a blanket. She used to give me a scrapbook of our year together every year for like the first five or six years. That's pretty cool. So I'd say just she gave me my TJ07 case. My first pair of like really nice headphones. I'd say just like just about anything from Yvonne. It's usually pretty pretty sick as for the best the best one i ever came up with man i don't i don't know um

Starting point is 02:09:13 like i've i don't hard to judge yeah like i've definitely come up with some like pretty good like corny ideas because that's what yvonne bonds into like this one time back when we were dating uh i i made like a spoof of like a driver's license but it's like a happiness license and it's like because we'll be together forever expires never wow uh and and like on like just like like yeah it was just like so cheesy um i like got it laminated and everything I had completely forgotten about it Until she showed it to me recently AJ says

Starting point is 02:09:52 So the kids are not the best thing she gave you Hey I was involved I helped make those I mean my part's like pretty fun Well yeah sure You're definitely super involved Oh man that's very funny. All right, next up.

Starting point is 02:10:09 Next question here is from Ryan. What are the pros and cons to connecting my PSU to a 220-volt power, and did you consider using 220 for your personal setup? I am using 220 for my personal setup. The pros and cons are pro, it's more efficient. Con, it's 220 volts. So you got to go find a 220 volt outlet in your house if you don't already have one because you're in Europe.

Starting point is 02:10:37 That's about it. Yeah, it's more efficient, which is pretty cool. From Fabian, with EVGA pulling out out of gpus do you think more niche brands like yeston and with their waifu gpus might be able to expand out and fill the space i don't think so i think i think really it's going to be the like the the big the big three your msis your gigabytes your asus's i don't think as rock has an nvidia board partnership i think they're AMD only. Yeah, I just don't see it in the North American market.

Starting point is 02:11:10 Like at the end of the day, it always comes down to manufacturing capacity and they just have the most. NVIDIA can't ignore them. They can't not allocate to them. I mean, well, they might, but it's stupid. They kind of need each other. It's like a toxic codependent relationship at this point. Question here from Anon.

Starting point is 02:11:32 My wife and I are both devs, and we share a laptop and desktops. Any suggestions on reliably running Windows as VMs so we don't step on each other's environments? I can't really speak to that. I don't know what you would need that different user accounts wouldn't accomplish like yeah i like different user accounts if you want to be super hardcore about it i have also preferred just different partitions yeah if it's really important to keep them very separated just yeah like if you both have like ndas that you literally cannot

Starting point is 02:12:04 have your spouse see or whatever partition them out dude yeah yeah that would work then you could just have them each like bit lockered we can do just like two separate drives even would definitely work in the desktop i i suggest i have made suggestions to our own devs for partitions yeah from igor with all the tech you own sorry it's my accent with all the tech you own yes sorry it's my accent with all the tech you own phones wearables handhelds pcs etc do you miss the times when you only had one or two devices do you feel like you have less time during the day with everything you use not to keep charged digital detox i've been working on this a little bit personally i uh i had tiktok installed for i think about a week and then i i realized that my brain was slowly uh turning into a a useless goo um and then i uninstalled it and was like no and i've

Starting point is 02:12:55 been there was a a while back where i was like really into reddit and then i was like nope that's gotta stop i think it's all designed to be so addictive it's it's not nope, that's got to stop. I think... It's all designed to be so addictive. It's not the device that's the problem. Yes. It's the services and stuff on it. I said this before on WAN Show a while back where everyday life is constant PVP. And I think it's very true.

Starting point is 02:13:20 And you need to be aware that basically everything is either specifically on your team, which is usually just going to be like people. And then everything else is against you in some way. It wants something from you. It wants your time. It wants your money. It wants something. And you have to... I mean, you got to stop repeating yourself. Everyone knows time is money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wants your money. It wants your money. It wants your money. It wants your other form of money. It wants Everyone knows time is money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wants your money. It wants your money.

Starting point is 02:13:46 It wants your money. It wants your other form of money. It wants your other more different money. Pretty much, yeah. It all effectively comes down to money. And you have to be aware when you're using these things that that's happening and that has a cost on you. Even if you're like, oh, I don't know, I've just got some time to burn.

Starting point is 02:14:01 You could be doing something else. Maybe you do want to genuinely just burn that time to burn you could be doing something else maybe you do want to genuinely just burn that time and that's okay but i think you have to understand that you you could be doing something else you could get up and go for a walk you could uh learn a new skill if you're like i can't learn a new skill when i'm like sitting in an elevator yes you can aj from floatplane makes a good point youtube adding shorts is kind of ruining my life. I did the same thing as Luke, but now when I go on YouTube, which I like actually need, shorts are alongside videos, so I can't keep them out of my life while still enjoying my YouTube watching habits. One thing I will say is that if you have the discipline to ignore shorts for long enough,

Starting point is 02:14:38 they will actually not put them in front of you nearly as much. That's just YouTube doing YouTube things, but it's totally valid. One of the things that really frustrates me as a YouTube creator, but not really a big consumer, is that I have no ways to do certain creator tasks within the Creator Studio app. So if I want to post, for example, a community post, or even, can I even read community posts within the studio app? I'm not sure. There might be a way for me to do that. Let me check content. No, no, I don't. Yeah, I don't see community posts in the content. Yeah, so there's certain things that if I want to do them, I have to open the consumption app. And it is amazing how often

Starting point is 02:15:24 it manages to put something in front of me that I'm like, oh, I have to open the consumption app. And it is amazing how often it manages to put something in front of me that I'm like, oh, I can't look away from this. And I'm working. I don't actually... I should bring that up with them. I've been meaning to kind of drill into them how important I think it is that Creator Studio should have all the Creator stuff.

Starting point is 02:15:40 And that's a big part of it. It's like, I got stuff to do. And I don't want the creator studio app to be a replacement for the player but i don't want the player to serve the purpose of the creator studio app i'm i'm in a very different mindset when i am working versus when i am idly you know consuming youtube videos yeah a long answer yeah. Next question here from Lachlan. Hi, Linus. I was wondering how you are liking your Sony A95K TV in the new house after having it for a few months. I recently bought one as an upgrade from a 10-year-old LCD and love it.

Starting point is 02:16:15 Agreed. It's the best TV on the market, and it's really, really good. It's really funny. I came home from my trip last night and my son was sitting in the family room watching a movie. I was like, you know there's a theater downstairs,

Starting point is 02:16:34 right? He's like, yeah. Yeah. Why do I even bother? You know what I would have given for a theater at his age question here from michael for some future proofing what would you rec would you recommend this is a hard sentence for me for some future proofing what would you recommend for a zen 4 cpu the ryzen 9 7900x or the Ryzen 9 7950X? Main purpose is gaming, streaming,

Starting point is 02:17:07 and Unreal 5 game development. Because I know the answer, I won't say anything. Future proofing is a bad way to go about it? Don't plan that way. Nice. Sorry. You're just going to have to wait

Starting point is 02:17:24 and see what the performance of these cpus is they're not out yet they're coming soonish i think maybe maybe chat will uh maybe chat will discuss it and you guys can have some good conversation about it but i cannot uh join in there's so many the second you throw around future proofing it's a very frustrating term to deal with because the second you throw around that term, your, your budget, your disposable income, your interest in the product, all these different things come up. They, they, they all come up and they, you, you cannot define them very easily at all to any other people. And if you could, it's going to take a lot of writing. That's a better type of question for something like the new builds and planning section of the forum um so you can get way more into into depth with it but planning a

Starting point is 02:18:11 build for future proofing is often a flawed way of approaching the build in my opinion um so answering that question is just kind of like yeah it's tough yeah next question here is from tyler i liked hearing about canadian versus chinese molding in your screwdriver supply chain and would love to hear more about this on everything on the ltt store what are some challenges you faced with finding north american-based suppliers for your products so i wanted to use this opportunity to blast the newsletter yeah creator warehouse has a newsletter where they talk about this type of stuff yeah not as often as i'd like but they're working on it there's some there's some really interesting articles on there and there's an archive on the website um i don't actually know where the archive

Starting point is 02:18:54 is on our current site because i know where it is on the new theme that's coming oh bloody hell um okay well yeah i don't but there will be an archive on the new theme i'm pretty sure there is one that you can find on the current theme i just don't know where it is i do not see it okay okay yeah uh anyway um i would say i don't know i can talk about a couple things so uh when the when the covid shutdowns were hitting china really hard near the beginning of what would it be like like maybe mid 2020 let's say uh mid to late 2020, we explored heavily getting garments made here in Canada. And what we ultimately discovered was that there was no stock of anything. So you would pretty much have to wait for whatever fabric supplier to order from China. So it wasn't going to help us smooth out our procurement issues.

Starting point is 02:19:49 And then the second problem was that the quality of the actual production over here was just not even close. Just like pockets, like this crooked. Really? Oh, like it was utterly unusable we we explored doing like a whole line like made in canada line and um it's not i'm not saying that nothing made in canada would be good i'm saying that whatever manufacturing capacity there is in canada is probably privately held right and privately utilized and or is pretty bottom tier.

Starting point is 02:20:29 Or is being used. Like a lot of it would be like short run types of projects. Like if you need to, you have a conference in two months and you need jackets for all your team members, you might get something like that done here. And so the standards for quality might not be as high, and you need jackets for all your team members. You might get something like that done here. And so the standards for quality might not be as high, but that might not matter.

Starting point is 02:20:52 Or they might be really high and you might be paying like $900 a jacket or whatever. And that's not something that we'd be able to market to you guys. You're not gonna pay that. And to be clear, I pulled that number out of my butt. It could be a lot less than that. Never say never. Maybe there's double digit inflation for a bunch of years or something,

Starting point is 02:21:08 and jackets start costing $900. Yeah, sure, but like... There's another thing we tried to get done in Canada. We tried to get the ABCs of gaming printed in Canada. And literally every single so-called printer in canada was just outsourcing to china anyway so we were like um okay and we sourced it from china and the quality is great and like we get so many reviews on the site about how amazing the quality of abcs of gaming is like compared to their other board books and it's like yeah because we just like found and validated a good chinese factory and

Starting point is 02:21:49 that like that's the thing in china as it was really eye-opening to hear the molding guys talk about it where in china um you can absolutely pay the exact same amount that you would pay here and get a great quality product like you might get here um or you can tell them look i only want to pay a quarter as much and they will yeah they'll happily make something for you that's a quarter the quality makes sense so this perception that chinese manufacturing is like here and bad quality a lot of it not all but a lot of it has to do with companies over here wanting to pay a very wanting to pay a small amount of money and ending up with a to your product like it's that makes sense yeah yeah hilarious next question here is from carson what's your opinion on the new

Starting point is 02:22:41 psu spec and the necessity of it it sucks for people like me who just bought a nicer PSU, hoping it would last long. But now, according to J2Sense, there are risks with mixing an old PSU with a new GPU. And that's why future-proofing sucks. I mean, if you bought a 1,000-watt power supply back in 2005, 2006... Actually, I don't think they had really hit by that point. Let's say 2008. You got a solid 14 years out of it. You sure did. And that's still why future-proofing sucks.

Starting point is 02:23:10 But you were lucky. Yeah, exactly. You didn't know if that was going to be a thing or not. Yeah, yeah. We haven't done a video about ATX 3.0 yet. So the truth of the matter is I haven't really looked into it that much. video about ATX 3.0 yet. So the truth of the matter is I haven't really looked into it that much. I know that we want to get our Chroma set up so that we can evaluate ATX 3.0 power supplies. I know the first ones have hit the market now. Silverstone has one that's available for purchase

Starting point is 02:23:35 now, but we have not gotten our training from Chroma yet. So we're not quite ready to evaluate power supplies, but it will come very soon. I skimmed Jay's video on it. Sorry, Jay, I was busy. I didn't have time to really sit down and dedicate watch time to it, but it's interesting. It's very interesting. I'm excited to see like lab data on it, whatever. I'm excited to see people dive deeply into it, but check out Jay's video. It's interesting. Next question here from Anon. Did you ever get a resolution to the wire fraud from earlier this year hoping that got sorted for you yeah we got it back through very um unofficial means i told the story before i think it's on lmg clips

Starting point is 02:24:17 next question here from everett do you ever think we'll get reach a point of smaller and smaller transistor sizes that quantum tunneling will stop shrinking and we'll have to rely on what AMD is doing with 3D stacking? Yeah, we're already there. That's why AMD is 3D stacking. Writing's been on the wall for a long time. That's why they've been developing these technologies. Absolutely.

Starting point is 02:24:39 Oops, sorry. Are we playing footsie? Oh, down. Let's do it. I'm going to try to reach really far so I can join in. Next question here is from Rahul uh in the foreseeable future will ltt store ever become a hub for selling other youtubers merch after the jerry rigg everything knife i was started to wonder um i don't see why not any other creators y'all out there you wanna wanna like wholesale some stuff to us? If we think it's a good product,

Starting point is 02:25:06 like I don't see why we wouldn't carry it. I don't know, man. It's like, should we just have like creatorwarehouse.com and like... I've been wanting Creator Warehouse to support other creators for a long time. The way that I want them to do it is not in that way. And I understand it's super hard.

Starting point is 02:25:23 I get it. Oh, like develop products for them? Yeah. I know. I know. You know, we are working with someone big though, right? No. Yeah. Really big. I didn't. But it's going to take time.

Starting point is 02:25:36 Yeah. And it's hard. And it takes upfront investment because the way that we do it is a little different. Even from that person, it is requiring a significant time commitment but this person has a lot of integrity and cares about the quality of the products that they want to they don't just want to sell stuff to their audience the thing that i've liked about the store the most the whole time we've had it but more lately because like originally we were just doing like what we could and now we can do more which is great but the thing that i've liked about the store is that i i feel stoked to stand behind our products which is cool i think we make good stuff

Starting point is 02:26:15 a lot of youtuber merch even well-intentioned youtuber merch yeah is kind of junky because you do what you're supposed to do, right? You look online, look at what other people are doing. This is what's available to me. This is all I can really do without building a business arm, which is not realistic for most creators, which is fine and makes sense. And those results are often kind of junky. So being able to have actually good stuff is cool, but it's hard. And having the Creator Warehouse team be able to be that arm for these other companies, I think would be really sick.

Starting point is 02:26:50 But again, that itself is really difficult and we're already dealing with our own scale things and there's lots of work to do. Yeah, and it's tough, right? Because it works for us because we are taking 100% of the margin. If we had another creator come in and say, yeah, I want to do a purse. Okay, so whatever, right? It's like some product. So let's say that they wanted to target

Starting point is 02:27:19 like a pretty typical retail product markup is about double. Okay. So let's say they wanted to target a $199 price point. Okay. So if it was for us, we have $100 to work with to build that product. Because you got to understand there are certain costs associated with a product that just scale with price. So, you know, any losses from warranty, for example, it's not like, it's not like just because it's a more expensive product, you can just, you can just make a maximum of $20 on every product, no matter how much it actually costs. there's also higher transaction fees on the transaction like there's just there's just fixed costs that that go up with the value of the product and so it's it's pretty typical to aim for about 100 points on on a product and so if we were operating as just this single vertically integrated entity like we are now then we could kind of go, okay, well, then we have $100 to work with to develop this product, and we will make $100 on it. This is all purely hypothetical. And I've used these simple one to two ratios before for cost to retail price. It's not always that simple. We have

Starting point is 02:28:39 products we make more than that we have products we make less than that. And that also helps us absorb the storage and handling and transaction fees and like all that stuff. But we're keeping the math really, really simple. So all of a sudden, we are not acting as a vertically integrated company where the creator and the creating company are one essentially. Now we're creator warehouse and we're working with another person. Okay, so of that $100, what's that split? If it's 90-10, if they take 90 of it and we take 10, that sounds pretty good for them because they don't have to like build a business arm, like you said, to create these products. But is that even worth our time if we're selling these 200 products and we're taking home 10 of that 100 of margin why did we even bother unless we unless we are going to sell

Starting point is 02:29:33 like a hundred thousand of them or something um the the the the multiple people that are probably because any product you're going to sell that many of, I guarantee you the development costs were substantial, well into six figures. But I think it doesn't. So why are we bothering? So a lot of what I would, I guess, bring up is that the thing that I like the most about our stuff is the quality of it.

Starting point is 02:29:58 But that's exactly it. And maybe, hold on. I was getting there. Hold on. I was going to get there. Hold on. I was going to get there. Hold on.

Starting point is 02:30:05 Maybe we don't do purses. Well, okay. But we have our own blanks for shirts and we have consistent, really high quality and the printing's good and we have bottles and we have other stuff. Okay. But hold on. Let's go back to, let's go back to the margin question then. Okay.

Starting point is 02:30:20 So, so we have to figure out that it has to be enough margin for us to get out of bed because otherwise we could have made our own purse. Yeah. Right? Okay. So then we need more than 10% probably. So then from their side, okay, well, it has to be enough for me to bother getting out of bed. Because at the end of the day, I'm the one who has to be involved in the design process for this.

Starting point is 02:30:41 I have to sell it. It has my name on it and ultimately reflects on me if it's bad. So they're taking a lot of inherent risk in undertaking this. So we might go, okay, fine. $100 isn't enough for us to split. So now the final price needs to be $250. So we each get $75 and now we're happy. Hypothetically, right? So we're both making less. The price went up to you by involving these multiple entities. Now, it doesn't... I know people are going to be like, um, it doesn't work like that. Yeah, you're right. You're right. You're right. That's not how it works. But the point is that the more entities involved in this process, the more ways that whatever margin there is, is split,

Starting point is 02:31:27 and the more it drives up the finished cost. And so, you know, from my point of view, and you guys might think, oh, you're being greedy, 10% should be lots, right? Well, okay, well, who's doing customer support? Am I handling that? No. Why not? Not in the way that I'm thinking. Because they don't want to build a business arm, right? If they don't want to build a business arm right if they don't want to build a business arm well then why are they doing support well we should be a one-stop shop okay well then i need more margin because we run their shopify pages yeah okay so what do i have the login okay at that point who owns the shop do i or do you am i licensing your brand now at that point that's not how that works there's a few things in here that i don't think

Starting point is 02:32:03 we're lining up on one One, the Shopify page thing, running their Shopify page would require... I know you can have daughter sites. Would require a login, but would not require ownership of the site.

Starting point is 02:32:11 No, but it could. But why? It just could. Okay. Because at that... But you don't need that for customer support. You don't need that

Starting point is 02:32:19 for development. You don't need that for marketing. You don't need that for branding. I just mean it's complicated. Yeah, but I think it's less complicated

Starting point is 02:32:24 than you're showing. Well, it can be. Yeah, so make it less. You don't have to for marketing. I just mean it's complicated. Yeah, but I think it's less complicated than you're showing. Well, it can be. Yeah, so make it less. You don't have to make it more complicated. What do you want me to do? I think new product development would only be for very, very specific creators and at very, very high volumes. Which is something we're doing. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:32:40 Existing product, though, shirt, bottles, I think that's a lot easier than you're letting on. It is. Design is almost certainly going to be done by them. Or we could have like a more premium track where you work with our designers. It's still more complicated than that though. Because when we print the design, right? So we get it printed. We have a shirt.

Starting point is 02:33:00 Now what? Are they local? Can we show it to them and make sure that the colors meet their needs? Is it what they envisioned when they designed it on their screen? Is their screen even color accurate? I don't know. Just ship it to them. Okay, but then now you're adding extra time. They'll have a hard time doing anything

Starting point is 02:33:16 timely at that point. Because we have to get their design, get it printed, get it back, ship it to them, get their confirmation. This kind of multi-step process. And you know- I don't think it adds a step. You know from communicating with-

Starting point is 02:33:28 It shouldn't go printer to us, it should go printer to them. You know from communicating, well, it doesn't because we pick them up locally. We have it printed locally. And you know from communicating with creators that they are flaky as f**k. They really, really, really, really love to not answer. They are the worst.

Starting point is 02:33:42 Yeah, they actually are. Myself included. And me. Yeah. So it's one of those things where it's like, I know I'm overcomplicating it, but you're oversimplifying it. I think it's probably true on both sides.

Starting point is 02:33:53 Yeah. Sounds fair. Cool. Next one. cool uh next one all right uh final question here from anon what games you guys currently enjoying toying with luke i feel like we've been getting this question a lot lately so my answers aren't really changing i also didn't really play games for the last week and i'm pretty sure this question came up last week i played some super meat boy on the plane it's been a little while i was a plus on some levels i played golf story on the plane nice

Starting point is 02:34:32 yeah nice which i guess to talk about this golf story one of my favorite switch games that came out really fantastic game um sports story i think was supposed to be the follow-up. Sports Story. How's that going? Not well, which is why I kind of wanted to mention it. Sidebar Games was developing it. I think Sidebar Games is like a two-bit studio. studio. There was a trailer that went up on Nintendo's YouTube channel for Sports Story that looked awesome. It looked like gameplay. It looked awesome. But it seems like the project

Starting point is 02:35:18 might be dead, which is super sad because Golf Story was actually amazing. And even playing it again, I beat the whole thing before there wasn't really anything else for me to do on the plane. My girlfriend had her switch there. I didn't bring mine. She had golf story on it though. So I was like, sweet,

Starting point is 02:35:35 I'll just play this again. It was great. I really enjoyed it. And I really hope that they finished development on sports story. Cause I would love to play it. Well, they haven't updated Twitter since December, 2021, but, but, but the time before that was in june of 2021 so maybe this is

Starting point is 02:35:58 on brand for them i i don't know they are far off their schedule if i remember correctly based on like the video and stuff they haven't replied to anything since then yep it's looking rough but if you're out there there's interest please please make game you will sell at least one copy i'll buy it but yeah yeah same answers as other times or no when i'm walking around uh been playing some uh a little bit of tarkov not very much a little bit of sniper elite not very much a little bit of star citizen not very much there you go i think that's it i think that's all thanks for watching we'll see you again next week same bad time nope same bad channel i won't touch that yep and bye

The WAN Show - NVIDIA Thinks You're RICH - WAN Show September 23, 2022

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