The WAN Show - Why Do Youtubers Keep Destroying Companies - WAN Show April 19, 2024

Starting point is 00:00:00 What is up everyone? Happy Friday and welcome to The WAN Show! It's gonna be a very exciting show for you guys today. We've got, of course, the big controversy this week. Why is it that YouTubers keep killing perfectly innocent companies? How could they? What did those companies ever do to these YouTubers? They're so cruel and awful. We've also got an extremely special guest this week the one and

Starting point is 00:00:26 only jim keller i'll give you guys a bit of a longer introduction right after the intro now luke gets i mean i'm sure there's something else that's gonna excite the people uh he's trying i don't know man the spiffing brits pc needed repairs oh you went right for what did you do what did what did my heart do to you why did you feel the need to jab something into it and twist build a build a question did i destroy your company i don't know about that uh and boston dynamics has a crazy new robot and of course of course in boston dynamic style they had it's a horse an absolutely psychotic video oh you're gonna say of course of course and it's not gonna be a horse i i missed

Starting point is 00:01:10 the video so i didn't know what it was i assume i mean they have a dog uh it's not a horse i just assumed it's more like humanoid i'm i'm i'm messing with you i know i'm clarifying for the audience they need to know things i do all it they can still hear us i know but barely it's this music the show is brought to you today by msi squarespace Vessi. I'm going to spare him having to turn red while we talk about his illustrious career. But of course, our guest this week is the one and only Jim Keller, current CEO of Tense Torrent, co-founder of Atomic Semi, whose notable work includes. And brace yourselves, because this is a bit of a list. He was the lead architect of the AMD K8 microarchitecture and co-designed the x86-64 instruction set.

Starting point is 00:02:09 He was later the lead designer on the Zen architecture that catapulted AMD back to relevance and now more than. He helped design the Apple A4 and A5, the company's first in-house SoC. He's the former VP of Autopilot Hardware Engineering at Tesla. More recently, he left Intel in 2020 following a dispute. We don't need to get into the exact details of that, but joined TenseTorrent as CTO the same year and became CEO in January of 2023. In 2023, he also co-founded Atomic Semi, a foundry that's focused on designing and manufacturing low-cost fabrication equipment, which is something I have to admit had flown under my radar and I'm definitely going to want to ask a little bit more about. And without further ado, thank you for coming on the show. There he is. Hey, thank you so much and welcome

Starting point is 00:03:05 i'm struggling to impede and beat and smash your your enthusiasm pretty good i think we all do it's okay realistically look i usually have to sell it a little but i am genuinely extremely excited to have you on the show uh they asked me when i got on the phone with your team because we reached out when we saw the the dev kit that you guys have right now so this is on the tense torrent side um and i was like okay obviously whatever jim's working on is probably cool as so maybe there's something here and so i scheduled a call it's just exploratory call and they go oh

Starting point is 00:03:46 well you know do you want to talk to jim and i'm like well we don't really take guests on our show anymore but um yes we'll make an exception that would be great wow i don't want to waste anyone's time which is actually a big part of the reason we don't take guests we are notorious for starting our show anywhere from one to three hours late. And we hate doing that to important people. So without further ado, I want to get into some of the community submitted questions. We announced that you were going to be joining us and it would have been a huge disappointment

Starting point is 00:04:16 if you weren't here, but you are. So Dylan asks, Hey Jim, I'm a junior computer engineering student about to start my first internship doing verification engineering at a big chimp company. First of all, did I just say chimp company? Anywho, doesn't matter. The point is, congratulations, Dylan.

Starting point is 00:04:32 He says, it's great to see how far open source has gone. We even learned RISC-V in our introductory hardware course. Oh, cool. So, first of all, I want to start with letting you talk about RISC-V a little bit, because that's obviously a hugely important part of what TenseTorrent is doing right now. And I guess I realized I didn't really talk about TenseTorrent at all. So do you want to give us a short introduction to what exactly drew you to this company and to their mission? Wow. Okay. So TenseTorrent is an AI computer design company. We're designing a high-end AI engine and also a high-end RISC-V processor.

Starting point is 00:05:10 And I think, yeah, AI has gone through a lot of evolution and, you know, it started running on CPUs and then GPUs and then I think Google announced the Tensor processor in 2015. And we're building essentially an array of Tensor processors that's programmable with open source software stack that we released in January. And then there's going to be a combination of AI computing and general purpose computing tied together, and we decided to make a high-end RISC-V processor.

Starting point is 00:05:44 Our AI processor also uses little RISC-V cores to drive the execution of the Big Tensor processor. So... Yeah, so the RISC-V thing is really interesting because at some level, computer architectures are generic. It doesn't really matter very much if it's x86, PowerPC, MIPS, Alpha, ARM, or RISC-V, but only RISC-V is open. And the Berkeley guys that started it were pretty good. And the cool thing about open source, you know, we saw with Linux is when it's

Starting point is 00:06:22 open source a whole bunch of people can work on it. It's a much better innovation platform. And it's a one-way door. When people go from, you know, proprietary technology to open source, they literally never go back. Linux killed literally all the proprietary Unix operating systems. And I think totally RISC-V is going to take over the computing world which is pretty fun. To your student friends I was just going to say if I'm one of those Berkeley guys I'm putting Jim Keller said I'm pretty good on my LinkedIn

Starting point is 00:06:55 like immediately That's awesome I can tell funny stories about like, you know, computer science in universities and computer science in high end computer design companies, they kind of work together. And it's really interesting because a team of 100 people work together for five years can refine that crap out of somebody, something. Whereas students, you know, they get a project and sometimes without that much support. And some of those projects are pretty good and some of them, it's hard for it to add up to a lot, let's say.

Starting point is 00:07:32 But like the branch predictors everybody uses came out of universities. And RISC-V architecture, which is going to, let's say, dominate computing in 10 years and it is came out of universities and now there's 20 odd companies building risk five computers and way more using it so whether you did it on purpose or whether you did it by accident you actually transitioned me perfectly into the second half of dylan's question and this is really cool because he asked for getting into a higher level architect slash designer position. If you want to work on one of those teams, are you going to recommend stay in school, go for the PhD,

Starting point is 00:08:10 or do you want years in industry? What are you looking for? Well, so PhDs are really good for some people if you really have a research topic and you really want to go think really hard. But if you want, like, I didn't study computer design in college. I'm an electrical engineer. You know, my major is first electromagnetic fields,

Starting point is 00:08:36 and then my advisor ran the semiconductor physics lab. So I learned a lot about that. And then I took one logic design course and then got a job doing that. And then I got a job at digital where I worked for a great architect, Bob Stewart. And then computer architects, good ones, know about a lot of different things. So I learned how to program, do know, do a lot of design.

Starting point is 00:09:05 I know about semiconductor physics. I know a weird amount about packaging and, you know, signal integrity and all kinds of stuff. And so if you want to be a computer architect, you should probably work on a lot of different things. And most computer architects that are really good at it didn't do it in college, you know, as a PhD. Interestingly enough, it's almost like a too narrow of a way to go about it. PhD guys tend to be experts in something. That makes sense. Computer architects tend to be generalists, I'd say. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:09:39 So you already kind of alluded to this one as well, but William asks, I mean, you've obviously got experience on the ARM side. You've got experience on the x86 side. You've got experience on the RISC-V side. William asks, how far do you think x86-64 can go? I mean, you're telling me now, you're saying, look, RISC-V is going to be the future. You gave that number 10 years. I'm not going to hold you to it. I mean, I can't promise nobody else will, but I'm not going to hold you to it. Is that because x86 is out of gas? Or is it because RISC-V has just got some kind of fuel that we're only just discovering the potential for in the engine? Which one is it? Neither. So computers generically, you know, they fetch instructions, decode them, and issue them. And the thing that makes the front end of a computer fast is how many instructions can you decode and how well can you predict the instruction stream. So x86 has a deficit in the sense that random length instructions are harder to predict, but we sort of figured that out. It's just harder to do, but it's not like a big limitation.

Starting point is 00:10:53 And then the execution engine goes fast because you have lots of parallel execution units in out-of-order issue, which is generic to computers. which is generic to computers. And then you have a good memory system with a really good predictor for where the data's coming from, which has nothing to do with your architecture. So I'd say x86 has a limitation. So it's 16 registers, variable length instruction set, and it sort of has a pile of old crud

Starting point is 00:11:21 that nobody actually needs, but you have to build. So it has a pile of old crud that nobody actually needs but you have to build. So it has a tax. But computer performance is mostly today based on prediction. And the number of predictors in a modern computer is crazy. We predict obviously like where the instruction stream is coming from, where the next branch is, the direction of the branch, call return stack. We predict the width and grouping of instructions. We sometimes predict the results of the branch, call return stack. We predict the width and grouping of instructions.

Starting point is 00:11:46 We sometimes predict the results of instructions. So tell me this. Where the data's coming from. So it's all a prediction. One of the, a follow-up question from William is, you know, could we see cores using multiple architectures? Could you see someone like an Intel or an AMD, an x86 license holder,

Starting point is 00:12:12 taking some kind of RISC-V architecture AI processor, coprocessor, and using that for prediction? Like an AI accelerant on a traditional... Does it just not make any sense? I mean, tell me. If it's a dumb question, I'd love to know. It probably doesn't make very much sense. So computers are very optimized around, you know, a particular instruction set. Today there's pretty good binary translators and they keep getting better. And binary translation from like an ARM instruction set to RISC-V is relatively easy and back

Starting point is 00:12:39 and forth. So you'll probably pick your general purpose computing architecture and then either recompile all the code or translate the code you need. Like Apple switched from x86 architecture to ARM architecture. They hardly missed a beat. Nobody even noticed or cared. Some of that's the Apple ecosystem and software build. But they could switch to RISC-V and nobody would notice or care either. This is hilarious.

Starting point is 00:13:04 He keeps beating me to what my next thing is going to be. It's all prediction, right? So I just don't even... Why do I bother talking? Well, we live in a simulation, and a good simulator predicts everything. So the next thing I was going to... The next thing from William's question that I was going to focus on. So he asked, asked okay how far will

Starting point is 00:13:25 x86 go do you think armor risk 5 will replace it in the future maybe we'll see using multiple architecture so that's all william's question so far i'm not taking any credit for that or blame but what i will take credit or blame for is this next one i was really focused on the word replace in his question and you brought up needing to recompile code and software is something that i feel like is a a bit of an elephant in the room you know when you talk about how well you know fundamentally all processors are the same essentially it's like how many instructions can you process but while rosetta 2 was an absolute marvel um to the point where just a few years ago i wouldn't have even shortlisted william's

Starting point is 00:14:05 question let alone asked it to you uh but now that i've seen what apple was able to do with that x86 to arm transition um and what qualcomm is claiming that they're doing on their upcoming snapdragon chips with windows on arm i feel like anything's possible and that word that replace word can i expect to go back with with to legacy programs right um to to stuff that that is that that tax on x86 that tax on windows and whether it's through whether it's through ai or whether it's through on the fly recompiling can i expect to replace the gaming pc that i have today with something risk five that will run and i'm not going to ask for 100 but if i asked for 90 of the software i used to run do you foresee that yeah of course of course more and more more and more software is

Starting point is 00:15:02 written in more and higher level languages. Like recompiling C programs in Java and Python, and you name it, it's getting easier and easier. The architecture mostly doesn't matter. Now, what matters is, on a given architecture, like we found this, we started building like a server stack for RISC-V. And when they went from intel to amd to arm

Starting point is 00:15:27 to risk 5 each time you port software it gets easier to do and the hardest port by the way was intel to amd even though they're both x86 right really and that's because there's a whole bunch of proprietary software in the server stack that was actually Intel proprietary. So you weren't, which by the way, they weren't giving out the port, so they had to rewrite a bunch of stuff, but all the new software is in C, C++, it's clean. So porting the ARM was easier. Right, porting the RISC-V is pretty easy. The thing you find is like the toolchain maturity, like somebody built a binary with some set of switches, and then you link that, and somebody mislabeled one of the header files, and then you have to be an expert to figure out why this thing didn't work. But the actual porting of the software is not the hard part.

Starting point is 00:16:19 Can I interject? RISC-V ecosystem uses GCC and LOVM, and they're really mature compilers. Like they literally use the same compilers on the back end for all the architectures. You mentioned there the server stack for RISC-V. That's a huge deal, and I know there was the struggles with the Intel-to-AMD transition and that hampered AMD, a bunch of stuff. It's going to be a big problem solving the server stack thing. How is that going?

Starting point is 00:16:42 I know you guys are working on it. I know some other companies are working on it. Yeah, it's going pretty good. So, and again, this is one of those. So Amazon did a really fun thing. So in AWS, they put Graviton in there. And first, they ported some of their own applications. So, and Amazon's pretty good at putting a gun to somebody's head and saying, you will go port the software and get it running. And then they said, yes, sir. And they did. But then they put it up on the web and said, hey, if you want to port your stuff to ARM, it's 30% cheaper, whatever the number was. And a lot of people said, sure,

Starting point is 00:17:16 that's easy. It's JavaScript anyway. Who cares? And so people started porting it. And the more people ported it, the better it got. And it's easy to tell if the application. and they made it pretty generic. So I think what you'll see is, like, heterogeneous data system. So you have a cloud, and there will be some Intel servers for the dinosaur code, and then there will be ARM and RISC-V for stuff that's already been ported, and there will be a price difference. And then people will go, you will go where they need to.

Starting point is 00:17:46 Yeah, keep converting. Nobody cares about IBM 360 code or Vax code or Sun code or HPUX code. It's all gone. And you won't care about the games that you ran 10 years ago because there'll be better games. They'll just emulate them or they'll AI emulate them. That'll be the really funny thing. You'll say, hey, I want to go play Super Mario Brothers,

Starting point is 00:18:09 and you'll talk to a computer and describe Super Mario Brothers and play a little YouTube video from the 80s that played Super Mario Brothers, and it'll emulate the whole thing, and you'll think it's fine. That's kind of terrifying i can tell you there's a there's a lot of gamers watching this right now that are going to be really unhappy about that but we're going to move on we're going to move on some of them could be really happy because now they have these games are going to get ponged from this you know the 80s and shit and they'll be able to like train an ai agent to play perfectly nintendo's

Starting point is 00:18:44 litigating already like space invaders all the stuff that we agent to play perfectly. Nintendo's litigating already. Space Invaders, all the stuff that used to play at bars. I can hear Nintendo's lawyers from here. Carol asks, As a junior IC design engineer, I often wonder how to stay on the bleeding edge in the semiconductor industry. Recently, I discovered Intel Power Via

Starting point is 00:19:00 entirely accidentally through a YouTube video and blamed myself for missing it for almost a year. What is your advice for keeping up with the industry besides just, I don't know, creating new technology yourself? Make sure you work someplace where they're doing new stuff. Wow. Okay. So this is a recruitment interview now. A lot of places.

Starting point is 00:19:23 Yeah. They're hiring. Sure, we are hiring. So you build a technology like a CPU, and, you know, at first it's new, and, you know, it's got a lot of problems. And then you start refining. They get pretty good at it. And then the management teams typically go, well, it's really risky

Starting point is 00:19:41 and expensive to do a new one. What if it's worse, right? And you start refining, and what happens is people get in smaller and smaller boxes. Whereas when you do new projects with, like, a new team, everybody does a little bit of everything, and you have to go solve new challenges. And when you do a new project, you never use an old CAD tool, or, you know, you sort of aim forward. Whereas I was at Tesla and we

Starting point is 00:20:07 talked to vendors of a bunch of our chips and half of them couldn't do a small tweak to the chips I had in production they've been shipping them for a couple years well was it the knowledge that was they didn't have the CAD tools no they had the database to run it on the fab but but they couldn't update it right and it was so so if you're a young engineer make sure you're working someplace where they're doing new stuff okay lots of new stuff going on you did it again um you led me right into my next question uh this one's for me so again i get full credit or blame if it's a stupid question um i've always wondered this. My layperson brain, you know, looks at a new innovation,

Starting point is 00:20:49 you know, a new generation of chip, whether it's from an Intel, an NVIDIA, a Tense Torrent, whoever, right? And I look at it and I go, okay, but really tell me this. This idea you guys implemented, where did it come from? from you know how much of that generational improvement is a we didn't think of it before versus b we needed to try it first but we went small before committing big versus we totally thought of it uh we totally knew it was a good idea but the process node technology for for example, didn't allow it. We had other priorities. Like, how much of it is A, B, or C?

Starting point is 00:21:31 I want to know, right? Like, 3D vCache. It's all of them. Okay. It's really weird. So, I mean, in the platonic reality, everything already exists, right? So, we don't actually live in that world. There's literally an infinite number of possibilities.

Starting point is 00:21:51 Most of them are bad, right? Thanks, Dr. Strange. It's true. So that's a problem. So there's one thing, which is you work out a bunch of, you know, architect, you're making a new CPU, you have a bunch of ideas, you say these are really solid but I want to make it say wider issue but that causes you to have to go rebuild the entire cache and fetch system and then the more instructions you fetch the

Starting point is 00:22:20 better your predictors have to be and some predictors scale just by making them bigger but sometimes you need a better algorithm like the simple branch better your predictors have to be. And some predictors scale just by making them bigger. But sometimes you need a better algorithm. Like the simple branch predictors we started with were fine for years. But if you're trying to keep 500 instructions in a reorder buffer and never flush the pipe, it has to be so accurate, it's unbelievable. Now some of those things were invented. Now here's a funny story, which is Intel ran a competition for the best branch predictor. They published the results, and one of them was in Wikipedia. And when we first started doing Zen, we needed a really

Starting point is 00:22:54 good branch predictor. So I looked it up in Wikipedia, flew over to meet the guy, and paid him for a patent. You can't make this shit up. Now, the mathematical, so it turns out there's math under these kinds of predictors, which is a little related to how neural networks and AI work, right? And so the initial predictors was sort of do what you did last time

Starting point is 00:23:19 and then the better version was keep more track of the history of what you did before and use that. But at some point it started to look more like a computation of, you know, there's this space of paths in the program. And can you compress that space of paths to something useful and then predict which paths you should follow on, which is related to a field of mathematics. And then it wasn't really possible until you had enough transistors. So Morse log gives you more transistors every couple of years.

Starting point is 00:23:56 And so there's this little, and then there's a trade-off, like in the short run, maybe I'll make this bigger because it's easy, but I can't just keep making it bigger. So I need to find a better idea or do something sophisticated and then take advantage of all the transistors. It's a combination of things. And then every time you build a computer, you learn a lot about doing it. You continue the performance model. Software continues to evolve. And there's some things that used to be a bad idea that are not a good idea and vice versa so it's you know it's it's complicated let's shift our focus publish stuff you know like like people don't realize how much information is out there there's a hundred thousand people

Starting point is 00:24:34 building faster computers let's shift our focus know a lot about what's going on yeah but to ai um because obviously that's that's your next big challenge that you're taking on right now. And it's... I've got actually a number of different... You know what? I'll go with one of the ones from our audience. I've got kind of an adder to this one.

Starting point is 00:24:58 Charles asks, AI is set to disrupt the global economy in ways that we've never experienced before. Not in our lifetimes, maybe never ever as a species. What do you see as personal responsibility for shepherding AI in a responsible direction? Or do you kind of go, well, look, that's the software guy's problem. I just build the platform that it rides on. Like, what's going on here in your mind?

Starting point is 00:25:42 Well, if you're an historian, you know, the human race has been radically disrupted, you know, a dozen times in the last couple hundred years. You know, automation is kind of wild. My father used to tell me it was the fractional horsepower motor that automated all the factories. Everybody talks about the printing press, books, being able to read, college educations, highway system. It's a lot. And then Kurzweil says, progress accelerates. And so it's one thing for something to happen like once a generation, but we've gone through mainframe and the computer workstation pc mobile internet internet yeah you know cloud computing you know always on always connected a lot of that's in my lifetime man like what is going on this is this is a lot of accelerations in one place right now

Starting point is 00:26:41 i'm a technologist i know how to build computers and we like my part of it is i i really don't think the world would be a good place if only the the super rich corporations had big computers right i think ai technology should be available to as many people as possible, that the software should be as open as possible. I really like the fact that some people are publishing really good AI models. We decided to publish our compiler stack. As you know, the core of the TPU compiler and video stuff is proprietary and not accessible to everybody. In terms of managing society, I don't believe individuals are the right answer to that.

Starting point is 00:27:32 I think this is a collective effort, which needs a lot of people to think about it. Also, but on the flip side, in most of the transitions we've ever had, the doomsayers have been wrong. We keep solving the you know how does society and people and individuals work together to solve our technology problems and the balance of power between all the factions you know so i you know i have some concern about it i have a belief in human progress

Starting point is 00:28:01 But I have some concern about it. I have a belief in human progress. I think I like the open source world. I like open technology. I like products that people can build and afford. I'm not really into the $1 trillion computers that only two people can afford. So my 10th Story's mission is partly, how do we make computers cheaper

Starting point is 00:28:24 and how do we make computers cheaper and how do we make them more open? And we're licensing our technology to a bunch of people to build their own products. And I think that's part of the democratization, I'd say, of AI and software in general, which I'm a fan of. So tell me this. I mean, AI is clearly, it's in that stage right now.

Starting point is 00:28:49 It's like it's a toddler, right? Like it'll do something one day that impresses the hell out of you. And then it'll be running to greet you when you come home and it'll trip and nail its face on the floor and it's got a big nosebleed, you know, five minutes later, right? and it's got a big nosebleed you know the the five minutes later

Starting point is 00:29:06 right like it's it's clearly stumbling around looking for its footing but you see the potential right you see what this thing's going to grow up into how harmful do you feel like high visibility ai fails are um the humane pin for example is something that we're going to be talking about later on in the show, as generated a ton of mainstream buzz. And I mean, that's, that's obviously, there's some recency bias there that makes me bring up that versus, you know, talking about some of the, okay, like the $30 million heist that was facilitated by machine learning, powered deepfakes. There's clearly a lot of FUD around AI. And do you think that sort of damages our progress

Starting point is 00:29:56 in the long term, or is it all just a blip? Yeah, it's all a blip. Like AI has already been through several hype cycles it's going to go through more hype cycles the history is usually the big first movers don't become incumbents nobody heard of Google and Facebook

Starting point is 00:30:16 and Amazon before they became big it was IBM, Digital Equipment, Sun Microsystems they're all gone so there's going to be multiple blips, there's going to be you know both funny and you know somewhat scary you know issues but it's you know the human race is pretty big and resilient and there's lots and lots of smart

Starting point is 00:30:40 people and yeah well it's going to elaborate out all over the place you know it's happening as we speak no am i worried about it i am definitely curious it's going to be a it's going to be a wild ride okay you did it again the last 25 years have been wild you actually did it again are you sure we're not in a simulation because the next thing i was going to ask is no no here's here's the really funny part okay here we go like if you were going to build a simulation you would build in a bunch of things to like let's say limit the computation like the speed of light's cool because you can't really see what's going on over there because there's a limit.

Starting point is 00:31:25 Like things don't interact all at once. And the uncertainty principle is really cool because when you look at something really closely it gets a little bit undefined. We live in a, here's my favorite part of the universe. We live in a universe that's governed by three principles. The uncertainty principle, the incompleteness theory, and the unproveability problem. So it's uncertain, incomplete, and unprovable. If you were building a simulation, those would be some pretty good rules to put into it, because that would massively limit the amount

Starting point is 00:31:58 of computation you have to do. Okay, so what I was going to bug you with then is i mean nvidia very publicly uh very loudly dropped 10 of their valuation today and every time right every time something like this happens um you get people on both sides going no no it's real it's real to the moon you get people on the other side going it was a bubble they're talking whether it's a dot-com bubble or whether it's real to the moon you get people on the other side going it was a bubble they're talking whether it's uh dot com bubble or whether it's web 3.0 or they're pointing at some other hype bubble um what is companies are bubbles yeah can can can both of those things be true was my question yeah yeah yeah that's like that's said, oh, that company's just kicking the can down the road. And somebody else said, duh, that's how companies work. So what does stability... Get investor dollars. There's no stability.

Starting point is 00:32:54 Okay, there's no stability. Okay, then... that there will always be 100 top companies, but those companies change continuously. The myth is, oh, the super rich will always be rich. That's mostly not true. The super big companies will always be big. That's not true. There's virtually no companies that are 100 years old that are still viable. Everybody's got their day in the sun. Okay. Speaking of which which you're at the helm of a company now my understanding is this is your first time in the ceo position is that correct it is okay so i was going to ask you with that knowledge right like uh well one of the really famous quotes from someone i can't remember who because i'm terrible at names but um a really famous quote that i that i read at one point was

Starting point is 00:33:46 that good leaders lead a company great leaders put the company on a path such that when they leave it becomes better than it was with their leadership um and you know you just said it right like there's very few companies that are wonderful thank you yeah sure i okay thinking. Sure. Okay, well, hold on, hold on. Let me finish the question before you predict my whole thing and answer it. So, knowing that 100 years is an awful long time for a single company to stay viable, you know, what does your leadership look like? Is it an in-the-trenches leadership? Is it a set the vision and let people do it leadership?

Starting point is 00:34:25 How are you finding it? Well, yeah, I'd say I like to do both. I like visionary leaders. I worked in Steve Jobs' Apple and I worked for Elon. And I learned a lot from those guys. They are both visionary leaders but they're also really hands-on people like Steve Jobs worked on products every day now I did he didn't work directly with that many people but I worked for a guy talked to

Starting point is 00:34:57 him literally a couple times today Mike Colbert he was a brilliant guy and it was very hands-on and very knowledgeable about everything we were doing. And Elon's the same way. He's a wonder in terms of how many different technologies and stuff he can say useful things and have insights about. And he likes everybody to be hands-on. So yeah, I'm into the hands-on thing. I'm a believer in what's called collective creativity and I like people to own stuff and feel empowered to go do it. I played the Fuck Around to Find

Starting point is 00:35:33 Out video for my whole company on it all hands maybe. It was fun. I like people to get stuff done but also to own it and it's okay to screw it up and fail as long as you learn something and try it so it's complicated to be a leader if you just tell people what to do they don't do a very good job if you just pay attention to vision that's not enough um you have to be ready to willing to work with people and find people like good people that work for me. I have some really good technical and organizational managers, and they're pretty hands-on people. They know what they're doing, but they also know how to give people space to go do something useful. It's a combination of things.

Starting point is 00:36:19 You've got to do both. Okay, well, tell me what success looks like. Pretend start? Yeah. Every year we get to build better computers and we build products our customers like and we keep going. Here's a funny one. So when I was at Digital, we used to joke that we'd build computers until the money ran out and then the money ran out and we went bankrupt.

Starting point is 00:36:41 So I went to AMD and I told somebody that joke and they said, Jesus, the money runs out here all the time. We've been bankrupt like three times. Jerry Sanders just, you know, he goes borrow some money or cuts a big deal. So like, like running out of money was not an AMD problem. And when I went back to AMD, we were like months from bankruptcy. Jensen's famous for telling everybody they'll be bankrupt in a month for most of the company's life. No, like, you build stuff. Steve Jobs said you're only as good as your next product.

Starting point is 00:37:15 I believe that. People build a great product and they think, now we've made it. Not in technology. No, you go make a better product. Or the market changes, or the customers want something different, or you'll learn something new,

Starting point is 00:37:29 or somebody else learns something new that you didn't know about. So yeah, success for me is, I want a team that's engaged and interesting, and we're building useful stuff, and we build stuff that somebody wants. And then my expectation is we'll have to go build something else. Like keep going.

Starting point is 00:37:48 Of course, we were going to have some questions about your time at AMD. Hector asks, you returned during a challenging time, which you've alluded to just now. What was the morale like? What was it? Was it was fight was it flight uh resignation ooh yeah so when i joined so so so so i'd worked at amd i i liked the like when i was in amd in 98 99 something like that i liked the culture of it's a teamwork culture. Apple was much more of a hard edge, do the best excellence, you know, reward the top kind of culture. So I was intrigued. I knew, I thought they were going bankrupt when I joined. It was closer than I thought. They had fired a third of the people. I think we ultimately laid off over half the company. But the people that were there liked each other.

Starting point is 00:38:47 Do you know the expression, the rats leave the sinking ship? There weren't many rats at AMD when I got there. They'd all left. And the people that were there were often technically very good, and they were good to work with. And I thought it would be fun to figure out how to turn the company around. it didn't work you know like i just get another job it's like like i wasn't really worried about jobs so so i went in there sort of knowing you know what's going on there are some things that to be honest were worse than i thought yeah nobody talks about the rat that um voluntarily swims back to the sinking ship. So put us in your head. I call a spade a spade.

Starting point is 00:39:31 Well, I was friends with Mark Papermaster, and I said I wanted to lead the CPU team, and they wanted me to be the architect. And I thought, I could never pull this off if I'm the architect and somebody else manages the people because building a great product takes a combination of architecture, teamwork, organization, all kinds of stuff. I hadn't managed like 500 people before, but I read a book about it. It's not that hard. To be honest, I read 10 books about it. I hired a consultant who was excellent about this kind of stuff. Okay, so it's a little bit hard then.

Starting point is 00:40:06 Yeah, 10 books. It took this kind of stuff. Okay, so it's a little bit hard then. Yeah, 10 books. It took a couple of weeks. It was really fun. And then, well, Rory Reid was CEO at the time, and I told him I had to cancel all the projects and start over. And he's like, yeah, nobody cares if we have like 50% of the competition or 53%. Go ahead and do it.

Starting point is 00:40:27 So I had a lot of freedom. And then a lot of people had a lot of good ideas. It wasn't just me. So we kind of unlocked it. I'd say a lot of people didn't believe in the project. Some of them didn't believe it right until it was finished. Really? Because they were so used to AMD losing.

Starting point is 00:40:46 Well, hold on a second. How does that happen? Okay, this is something that maybe does not speak to... Oh, engineers are very determined people. They can work on something they know is never going to work, but they're having fun doing their part and they just soldier on. Okay, but hold on a second.

Starting point is 00:41:02 And maybe this isn't your problem, because you can tell just from the blunt honesty that you haven't spent a day in marketing in your life. Oh, I'm great at marketing. I can sell you your own shirt. That's a book about it. It's not that hard. Okay, but help me out here because this is something that blows my mind is a product will arrive. because this is something that blows my mind,

Starting point is 00:41:24 is a product will arrive, and us monkeys, who basically are just like, I don't know, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, run game, you know, measure frames per second,

Starting point is 00:41:35 are sitting here going, hey guys, you got the pricing way wrong. You're at 80% of the competition, and you're priced 20% higher. And you get people who presumably talk to people who worked on the bloody thing and they're like, oh, really? And you just kind of go, well, where does this disconnect come from? How could you possibly be?

Starting point is 00:41:55 Help me with this. How could you possibly be an architect or someone working on Zen? You got your nose right up against this thing and you go, I don't know, maybe this thing's shit. I have no idea. How does it happen? How can we tell? And they can't. I'm sorry, what question you're asking? Okay, the question you're saying, some of the people working on Zen up until the very end, you go, yeah, they didn't, they didn't believe in it. How's that even possible? Because they're seeing, they worked on the previous

Starting point is 00:42:25 product that wasn't any good and you know they just assumed this wouldn't be i don't know but they got the same people were doing and they would look at me like jim we could never do that we're not that good or something i don't know so here's a funny thing so a friend of mine told me this years ago so every company will tell you we only hire the best we're the smartest people in the world and what he said is that a hundred people you can have a really like excellent group and a thousand people you can be above average and at ten thousand all companies are average like it's true just by statistics now there's a question about whether you lead from the top or the middle like there's a bunch of management theories about this and then there's there's a lot of problems with

Starting point is 00:43:09 how you do things and then there's this risk-reward if you have an okay design and you want to make a 10% better it might be really hard but if you do a new design game 30% better you can do it but the risk of that's way higher and so people make bad risk-reward trade-offs like the the risk of that's way higher and so people make bad risk reward trade-offs like the existential risk of being 50 the performance of your competition was a hundred percent and yet they were doing low risk five percent moves right so we said hey let's build zen to be just as fast as i think as we started out i said we'll beat haswell which was the processor competition at the time and which by the, was shooting behind the duck a little bit because we assumed Intel would keep moving.

Starting point is 00:43:51 That was my next question. How much did Intel save AMD by just stagnating like that? 50%. Okay, that's a lot. You need a good design hey and somebody said uh he always told me i was i i did not bet on luck enough because you know i i do what i can and i assume everybody else is doing what they can but i i didn't see that coming so i think that was pretty handy for them yeah a little bit so tell me right now but it was a good design and it was clean

Starting point is 00:44:27 so one of the things people don't realize is when we built zen you know we had a pretty clean architecture and redid the cat tools the methodologies the flows and stuff and then you know zen one two three four they were able to make pretty good progress. Then what happens is at some point progress starts to slow down because you really need to do a big, either a from scratch or a big rewrite and then, you know, to get on the next curve. And that's one of those complicated things. Now tell me this. Right now, realistically, the 800-pound gorilla in this space is not Intel.

Starting point is 00:45:04 It's NVIDIA. Or unless you disagree, in which case I would love to hear about it. Okay, good. So we're on the same page there. And it's still founder-led, and Jensen is a really smart guy. Are you shooting behind the duck? Are you shooting ahead of the duck? What are you guys targeting?

Starting point is 00:45:23 Because you're trying to disrupt NVIDIA, essentially, if I'm not mistaken. No, I don't care about NVIDIA. Okay, then tell me what duck you're aiming at. There's so many. It's a huge, AI is a huge market. NVIDIA builds very expensive, very high performance, very high power products that people like, right, with very high gross margins. high power products that people like right with very high gross margins turns out there's a big market for smaller ai engines open source software licensable ip chips they can buy and put in their own products like that's not a hundred billion dollar market i don't need that i'd die and go

Starting point is 00:46:00 to heaven at 500 million in revenue so so i'm building products for other people now some of our products i think are really effective and you know we'll see but it's going to take a while to you know to do that and i have it's literally more business right now that i can deal with and you know we're working on you know delivering hardware and software, and we'll see what happens. And then the other piece is, I think the AI revolution's just started from a computer architecture point of view. And also there's going to be an interesting revolution in how we build general purpose computing.

Starting point is 00:46:37 So one thing I want to do, this is personally, is I want a really good AI and CPU design that I can then iterate on as software and models and a whole bunch of things change. And so we design with conscious intent. Like our AI engine is clean and simple. Like our software stack, you can go read it yourself. It's pretty straightforward. We're getting really good performance on it. And we have a whole

Starting point is 00:47:08 bunch of stuff coming in the next six months that raises the bar on it. But if we had to say, hey, there's this new model, go rewrite the software, I don't have 2000 people with 20 years of technical debt of software. I have 100 great people writing software and the software stack is clean. And same with the CPU, our 5 CPUs, it's going to be super fast, but it's a brand new design with brand new architecture and it's really clean. And if we want to, you know, radically change it, I can do it. I'm not stuck because, you know, somebody's CPU that's been iterated on for 10 years where three quarters of the code was written by people who don't even work there anymore like like we have we own our own stuff which is pretty fun so i'll give you a funny example so everybody told me you know especially there was a big debate about autonomous driving should it be driven by a c program that makes

Starting point is 00:48:03 the decisions or an AI model? And the assumption was the AI model is this murky, you know, thing that inputs go in and outputs come out and you don't know what the AI code is doing. And they had it exactly wrong. The C program was 5 billion lines of code written by 100 people over five years. They had no idea how that C program worked. But the weird part is it doesn't have a proper loss function. Whereas the AI model, you trained it with a known data set, and when you train it, you know exactly what its error properties are. So which one's better? The AI model you built yesterday from scratch with a known data set with a known error function? Or the C program written by a whole bunch of people over time that nobody knows how it works? I don't know.

Starting point is 00:48:55 One of the things I want to do is, you know, build the next generation of computing in a world that's changing fast so i'm not worried about the 800 pound gorillas because they don't they don't move as fast speaking of that um yeah sorry go for it it's a fun thing uh do you see other competitors in the risk five space as almost like teammates helping legitimize risk five or do you? Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, Riva's just got funding. The company's run by a friend of mine. They've got some really good designers. I wish them the best. Sci-Fi is a good company. Krista, who was one of the original

Starting point is 00:49:35 pretty good Berkeley guys, as you pointed out, helped build the RISC-V architecture. Andy's is a really great company. They're CEOs. He's a character I really like a lot. They're driving real stuff. I know the Montana guys. Yeah, like the CPU market's huge. Yeah. Right. And to be honest, you know, having five. So x86 was the original open source architecture, right? They licensed it like six, seven companies. And the reason it builds the AD6800, 6502

Starting point is 00:50:07 was because those were single source proprietary architectures and x86, the original AD86 was open. Now it's become proprietary with two duopoly control in it, but it was the open architecture. That's why it won. It didn't win because it was better. All those CPUs were crap.

Starting point is 00:50:32 And small and arbitrary. Speaking of there being only... Oh, okay. Speaking of there being only two, we got our hands very recently, I'm about to tease an upcoming video here on a centaur processor that well it's obviously it never actually made its way to um to the market but centaur halls uh it's an eight core it's clocked at 2.5 gigahertz and it seems to have risen out of the ashes of VIA.

Starting point is 00:51:09 Yeah, I haven't followed that for a while. Well, no one's followed it for a while. It's been dead for a while. But their concept was on-CPU AI, kind of like what you just alluded to, that was very affordable. They were targeting $500 for this chip with on-die AI, and it just couldn't get over the line. Was the problem x86? Was the problem just they didn't have a good enough team?

Starting point is 00:51:36 If you don't know much about it, that's totally fine. It was a funny coincidence that we made a video about it this week, and that you brought up that concept. Okay, so if you're not i don't know it turns out you know building ai hardware and software that works is is harder than it looks let's say like uh my friend rajik adori said every ai company in the middle of it there's a mole ad unit. And everybody can build one. But building, like, AI is complicated because it's a general-purpose computer that runs AI programs. So you need all the layers. You can't just build an AI engine with a compiler that runs a couple benchmarks. You know, there's firmware, there's drivers, there's security, there's interrupts, there's every single piece of it. And the thing we've been working on is elaborating out that full stack. On that subject. From top to bottom. And then the other is a lot of people tried to

Starting point is 00:52:36 make a dent in the market with one chip and it's relatively small. You know, to drive a car it's going to be a couple petaflops to good to run like real-time video um we're building the computer which we think will run real-time video in a single box at a reasonable price but it's expensive it's a it's a big ai engine it's not a 500 you know 200 teraflop chip it's it's it's it's pretty serious okay so let me jump in with what was going to be my next question from ricky um like you said hey it turns out ai pretty hard driving a car pretty hard i mean uh mr musk has famously promised us that full autonomous driving is X amount of time away. I kind of am wondering if he had an early point in his career where he worked at Valve at this point when it comes to giving ETAs for things.

Starting point is 00:53:36 And Ricky wanted me to ask you, okay, how far are we really away from full self-driving? Because I got to tell you, I am relatively speaking an idiot. But when we got the promise that full self-driving was going to be... Can you drive a car? I can. Well, okay. Oh, so you could...

Starting point is 00:53:56 At least I'm smarter than your computer. It doesn't seem like we don't really need AGI to drive cars, it turns out. Okay, so... Yeah, it's pretty funny. What I was trying to say is, relatively speaking, I'm an idiot. But I looked at the claim that, you know, every current Tesla was going to be capable

Starting point is 00:54:15 of full autonomous driving, and I went, there's no way. There's no way. Even knowing what I know, it's just there's absolutely no way that they have the kind of capabilities, even if I extrapolate, even if Tesla is 10x what everyone else is doing on the market right now. I just, I'm sorry, I don't buy it. So how, so Ricky asks me to ask, how far are we away from true,

Starting point is 00:54:40 like level four, level five, true full selfdriving give me give me a spitball so well my favorite my favorite crack about elon is the eternity of possible in the late and then people complain about it like crazy and i always thought that that's pretty good um gotta raise money somehow yeah well sure you know kick the can down the road build some products like their cars are great i You got to raise money somehow. Yeah, well, sure. You know, kick the can down the road, build some products. Like, their cars are great. I have two of them. And I like full self-driving.

Starting point is 00:55:13 I use it every day. And it's a little quirky. But it's getting better. No. So there's building a big enough AI engine. So humans drive cars really well. I taught both of my daughters in a couple hours to drive a car, and it turns out they both have a general intelligence, right?

Starting point is 00:55:36 And so for them, driving is a subset of that. Yeah, that's pretty good. I was thinking of A-B testing them. Like I was going to have one of them like read the rules and then, you know, go for a drive. And then I was going to have the other one watch like 100 million hours of video and then see which one could drive faster. But my daughter, Catherine, she told me to bug off. She's like, no way I'm watching like 100 million hours of video to learn to drive a car, Dad. She learned it like eight minutes flat.

Starting point is 00:56:08 So the general intelligence seems to be a really good thing. Now, the problem in the cars today is we're trying to put a small AI engine there and get the maximum performance out of it. So Waymo, I'm in San Francisco right now. They drive around with no drivers in the car it's pretty spooky and you know that's a fairly heavy-handed solution because it's got a shitload of sensors everywhere yeah mosquitoes and all that stuff whereas elon would say like a one-eyed guy with 2200 vision could drive a car and you know you don't have to be that smart now that causes the trade-off because the smaller the computer the better the software has to be so i think if you

Starting point is 00:56:53 put i don't know five petaflops in a car with some of the new good transformer models you could drive a car pretty fast but there's another weird thing which is humans aren't data intelligence we're computationally intelligent like you didn't get smart by watching hundreds of you know millions of hours of anything don't tell the audience yeah well maybe you watch hundreds of hours in the last week but it's only you know tens of thousands of hours it's not that much information. Like, we get some information, we essentially learn to simulate the world.

Starting point is 00:57:31 So, you know, I don't know if we live in a simulation, but our brain sure is a simulation. And we haven't really cracked the AI problem of building really smart systems that like simulate themselves and essentially create intelligence with simulation. They're creating intelligence with data prediction, which seems pretty smart, but it doesn't seem like, it's not close to what we actually do.

Starting point is 00:57:56 I want to loop back over. There's arguments like, yeah, that, well, people get a lot of data from vision, but blind people are smart, too. You don't need to see anything to be smart. I want to loop back around to one of my earlier questions, and this is obviously going to be a little bit of crystal ball gazing, and I don't expect you to have a good answer for it. But I asked, okay, how much of a generational improvement is we just didn't think of that versus we just didn't have the capability. Right now, you're really focused on AI, you're focused on risk five, that's, that much is very obvious. But I have to imagine for

Starting point is 00:58:37 someone like you talking to the people you do talk to, you got to have some idea of what the next thing is. I mean, obviously, you know, Jensen had some idea of what the next thing is I mean obviously you know Jensen had some idea where he was going with CUDA while everyone else was sitting there going why don't I just have more FPS on my stupid gaming thing right you know what is there a risk 5 replacement that is that is you know to two cells dividing right now where are we going well let's say it different way so so your brain you know there's there's this theory about you had a primitive brain then a motor cortex and then an emotional brain and then no cerebral cortex so our brain evolved to add layers like

Starting point is 00:59:22 our cerebral cortex is essentially a high-end planning machine. And so obviously animals survive just fine without one. And then when it started to grow, you have to ask, like, what was it for? And it could be it helped model the world better and create better planning with better outcomes. And at some point, the cerebral cortex took over. Most people think they live there in their head. So you can do things really fast with direct connections through your motor cortex, but most of the you that you believe is you, if you believe in that kind of thing, seems to be your thought process in your higher level thinking. So today AI computers are treated as accelerators to general purpose computation. That's going to flip pretty soon. AI computers are going to treat general purpose computers

Starting point is 01:00:08 like a motor cortex. So there'll be AI things running to do stuff and occasionally they'll say, generate a deterministic program to do something, right? As opposed to deterministic programs calling up AI modules. So that flip is coming pretty fast. And the way we think about programming, like you were talking about,

Starting point is 01:00:30 well, how are we going to run the old games? None of that's going to exist. And even stuff as simple as video is going to be all generated. Nobody's in 10 years going to watch a movie. You're going to live in a movie. Right, it's gonna be all real time generated and you're gonna interact with it. You're gonna ask your favorite character,

Starting point is 01:00:54 what the hell's going on? They're gonna go, shut up, I'm shooting somebody. Like this is gonna happen faster than you think. And like, so all the mediums we think about are toast and all the software that's ever been written is going to be gone like 100 i mean obviously there's going to be a ton of resistance to this i mean there'll be a corner to be a guy with a rotary phone and a and an iphone or a javas program or something. But it won't be material to your everyday life. So, okay, I guess I'm about to ask you to,

Starting point is 01:01:31 and feel free to ignore this question if you're just like, look, I don't need the handmail. I have one more if you want it. So, yeah, I'm a believer in we're going to use AI to rethink a lot of science. Right. So human beings, like we have this idea of you get data, you have a theory, you have a prediction.

Starting point is 01:01:52 The problem is you get trapped in your theories, and so then new data comes along, and you can't really interpret it into your theories. So all our science is, you know, it's elaborated from a bunch of ideas, but they're all human ideas and they can't encompass all the data. And I think science is going to go through a fairly big revolution. I'm still going to see if I can get a hot take out of you. When you see, for example, you see the, I think you've brought up entertainment

Starting point is 01:02:25 a couple times you brought up gaming you brought up film uh when you see for example the actors union uh negotiating to keep generative ai out of film and music out of art uh you know what's your what's your take on that this has happened a lot you know there was a big split, supposedly in Europe. I read in the history books that Austria banned weaving machines and clothing mills and all that stuff because they didn't want the people to lose all their jobs. And England embraced it, and one won and one lost. So the writers' unions will say,

Starting point is 01:03:07 you can't use this for this movie. It'll create a whole new area where they don't exist and people will generate all kinds of stuff. So technology change usually means you get on board, you get left behind. Now, I think there'll still be writers, there'll still be books, there'll still be books, there'll still be movies made by people for people. There's all kinds of stuff like that. You can buy machine

Starting point is 01:03:33 made clothing, but people buy knitted clothing. People like what people do. And that's a really great thing. We like artists. You can get a perfect painting by somebody printed, but you still buy the painting from the artist that you talk to because it's, at some level, more interesting. But yeah, keeping the AI out of this and that and the other thing is going to be a hard fail. I want the last sort of big one. I know you should probably, I think we've kept you longer

Starting point is 01:04:04 than we said we would. I'm very sorry for that, but I promise we're getting close to the end. We haven't talked about Atomic Semi at all. And this time I'm coming in without having done any pre-briefing because I, like I said, it kind of slipped under my radar. You say you're focused. I'm at the office. That's an Atom.

Starting point is 01:04:24 Okay. I didn't know it was an atom but is that the logo is that the logo for the company or okay cool yeah so all i know is you guys are working on low cost fabrication equipment like when you say fabrication equipment you mean like like asml fabrication equipment what are we talking about here smaller yeah like a little little tiny one like that. So you want to, what, your wafer is like five centimeters? Why?

Starting point is 01:04:51 Tell me about that. Okay, even smaller. Help me. Help me. So the semiconductor technology is great today, and all the equipment is great. Yeah. And it got optimized to make very large wafers that move very fast yes right you know they're 12 inches around like the thing that holds it weighs 50 kilograms and it moves so you look at all the machines it's it's really hard to build and heavy

Starting point is 01:05:20 and all kinds of stuff yeah you gotta account for seismic stability of the land make sure there's no ancient burial grounds under it that sort of thing yeah like yeah it's amazing so so i met this kid sam zulu like he made a fab in his garage in high school he used a youtube videos about it and then i met him when he was in college. And we started talking about what it would mean to go build a set of equipment where you could make a fairly high-tech chip really fast, but just make one chip at a time, and then optimize the crap out of it because you're not solving the problem of moving 50 kilograms at 100 miles an hour, and you're not trying to keep something perfectly flat over a huge surface. Like, basically change the game

Starting point is 01:06:08 and make something way, way simpler. And then take advantage of, like there's hundreds of billions of dollars of material research being done. You can deposit atomic layers of almost any material, single atom at a time, it's beautiful. So is the goal to be like- We decided to go... Sorry, go for it. Well, my personal goal

Starting point is 01:06:28 is to go make a really interesting chip really fast. It feels like the 3D printing prototype. Yeah, it's basically 3D printing. Compared to injection molding, right? Where you don't have to deal with the enormous

Starting point is 01:06:44 scale. Huh? Yeah. Now, the weird thing is, if you make them fast enough, it could be for more than prototyping. Right, which also happened with 3D printing. Yeah. Well, 3D printing is amazing. And it just keeps getting better and better and goes into more stuff. And then there's really fun stuff like you 3D print molds and then injection mold that. Like what you can do today with the combination of modern CAD tools, 3D printing, injection molding, and then CNCing and all kinds of stuff, it's fantastic.

Starting point is 01:07:19 And yeah, so we're into building our own machines that make chips and using an unbelievable amount of material science research. They publish everything. You can buy any atomical air deposition material you want for almost nothing. It's crazy. Yeah, super fun. Okay. Which, I mean, this is, it's almost like a chicken egg uh question right like which uh

Starting point is 01:07:48 which comes first for you in terms of of taking tense torrent to the next level in terms of um of taking atomic semi to the next level do they drive each other like is this an attempt to to maybe someday real men own fabs you know, as the famous quote, right? Yeah, I have a fab. Is that the goal? I have a computer design company. I have AI software. Sure.

Starting point is 01:08:11 Why not, right? Yes. Why not? What are you doing? I mean, like a lot of people are going, what are you up to? It's like, damn! Boom, roasted. I know. It's like, people, hey, this planet might get hit by an asteroid

Starting point is 01:08:28 or blown up by a volcano, man. I want to make sure that gets stopped. I'm hustling. It's like being a backup planet, but we've got big problems right here. So, yeah, we've got to get moving. All right. Well, on that note, I think this is a perfect time for us to say thank you so much for coming

Starting point is 01:08:48 on the show preemptively you know I'd like to get out there and make it so that you can't say no because it's in front of 10,000 people and say we'd love to have you on again sometime I know that Tense Torrent has some really cool stuff coming and we'd love to take a

Starting point is 01:09:04 look at it once that's a little more baked and once you guys are ready to kind of engage with us do some videos together uh we'd love to maybe have you come on for a you know a deeper look at you know the the normie version that we publish on the main channel maybe we can have a chat about it after um this has been what's the normie version this has been, this is the really dialed-in audience. Yeah, this is... Yeah, this is the guys that'll sit and listen to us for four hours a week.

Starting point is 01:09:31 This is the WAN show. So, guys, if you could just give us some applause in the chat for Mr. Jim Keller. Really appreciate you taking this time on a Friday night. Get to your family, please, sir, and hope to talk again soon. Okay, great.

Starting point is 01:09:48 Hey, great talking to you guys. All right. Thank you. Thank you very much. That was great. All right. Oh,

Starting point is 01:09:55 maybe we should do interviews more. Man, that was a lot of fun. And like, I knew from watching some of his other interviews that his answers to things were going to be extensive, but I was like, I want to make sure i'm prepared so i had all these questions we got through i don't know a 20th of what i wanted to talk about and we didn't get through like almost any of those and then you had your own that's why i preempted that's why i got out

Starting point is 01:10:21 ahead of it because i knew you had stuff yeah yeah um and his uh his staff told me because i was like look realistically you know we don't want to take up a ton of his time yeah we don't want the we don't want the wend show to be nine hours long um i do know could we could we maybe schedule could we maybe ask him for 20 minutes because i wanted to be super reasonable and they were like i'll tell you what you don't want that we'll put we'll put 20 minutes on the thing but we're gonna tell jim some other amount of time that's longer because people get talking to jim and then i mean is time even real anyway yeah that was so much fun uh obviously we do have to move on into our next topic uh yeah i'm yeah Yeah, that was a blast.

Starting point is 01:11:08 That could have gone on forever, I think. Let's talk about Marques Brownlee destroys the economy. What a pivot. Is AI going to destroy the economy? No. It will be Marques. It will be a YouTuber. So this is obviously our headline topic for the video today.

Starting point is 01:11:25 A review of Humane AI's AI pin by MKBHD has received a surprising amount of backlash, with at least one detractor calling it, and this is a quote, almost unethical, irresponsible, and careless. This particular critic even made an implicit reference to a doctor's Hippocratic oath. First, do no harm. Several business influencers followed his lead, framing Marquez as being some kind of powerful reviewer, heartlessly killing other people's nascent projects. People's nascent projects.

Starting point is 01:12:09 This is despite some of these business influencers claiming that he bankrupted a company in 41 seconds. Sorry, what? Okay, so there's lots of problems here. So number one, Humane.ai is not currently bankrupt. Number two, they received a lot of equally negative coverage from people other than Marquez. He just happens to be a particularly high profile person and number three humane ai staff seem to be largely unperturbed by his review and their social media head sam scheffer called it an honest solid review with

Starting point is 01:12:41 fair and valid critiques this is another quote i think it helps that sam is a very experienced person who came from the media side actually so like he's he's been on the other side of this he understands it it makes sense that he would have a well-reasoned appropriate response um marquez himself has commented on the controversy saying that a negative review is very unlikely in and of itself to kill a product or a company without there being other factors involved. He also stated that his reviews are not to inform or entertain businesses. They are to inform and entertain consumers and that you shouldn't really get that all confused. So I would just like to say heartily that I agree. As a reviewer you don't owe a

Starting point is 01:13:27 brand that sends you a product for review anything the deal is and i laid this out i laid this out back when hardware unboxed was under fire from nvidia uh or rather not nvidia was under fire for their treatment of hardware unboxed and you had these people coming out and saying, role. Like, the second you're reviewing something, you are part of the marketing strategy for this product, or that you owe somebody anything. That is not how this works. You get the product, you evaluate it with the knowledge and with the tools that you have at your disposal. And if you like it, there is a huge benefit. There's an enormous benefit because an unbiased video or article about a product is going to have a much larger impact than paid advertising.

Starting point is 01:14:42 If that weren't the case, and I promise you this, I cross my heart and I give you my personal Linus Tech tips, trust me bro, guarantee. If that were not the case, companies would only advertise. They wouldn't engage with independent media at all. Why take the risk? Because the other side of that coin, right? The other side of that coin. You get this huge boost if an independent media says your product is great and recommends to buy it. But if they don't like it, it stings. You don't run that risk with paid media. We went through a similar thing.

Starting point is 01:15:21 We sent our screwdriver out. Well, we've gone through things on all sides of all kinds of things when it comes to saying whether a product is good or not and having people be into it or not. I just mean on the product side. Yeah, let's talk about it. We have been on the product side. Let's talk about it from the manufacturer side. Yeah, yeah. Do you want to run it? I thought you were going to.

Starting point is 01:15:43 No, no, no. We sent it to look i had the luke experience for an hour just now genuinely hilarious i was trying not to laugh every time i could see you physically reacting and i'm like yeah welcome to welcome to the world um yeah it was epic uh i i'd like you to go ahead and tell your story now no i'm doing it on purpose right now um no yeah we we sent it to a bunch of different reviewers um and every time that we knew a review because we would often like there'd be some form of communication of like when the video would come

Starting point is 01:16:14 out but they often wouldn't tell us what like the results were because that makes sense um so like we would know a video was coming out on a certain day and there was so much anxiety because we have a lot of belief in the product, but you don't know, like they might test it in some weird way that we, we didn't think of or whatever. Like you don't necessarily know what's going to happen. They might not like the feel for whatever reason. Yeah. They might just plain not f***ing like it. Maybe they just think it's ugly.

Starting point is 01:16:39 Like who, who knows? Right. And then the videos would come out and then, oh, great. Everybody seems to love it. But like, it's, it it's it's a tense moment and there's a degree of kind of knowing who you're sending something to like if i had a product that was functional but not particularly aesthetically pleasing um you know what i might send it to someone who's more into function over form yeah i i might you know i'm not I've decided not to name names,

Starting point is 01:17:05 but I might pick and choose my reviewers a little bit. If I had something that I thought was very, very, very beautiful and crafted, you know, I might send it to a completely different set. And don't imagine for a second that companies aren't playing this game and that they don't have a certain set of expectations. Again, a name I'm not going to name, but a very large technology channel that is not Marquez, but really, really big, told me that before engaging

Starting point is 01:17:36 with them one time, there's a brand that had someone on their team go back and watch every single video they'd ever published. A, to make sure they were brand safe and b to get some idea of where their headspace was at and what they felt was important like i'll tell you this much humane ai did not contact me that tells you everything you need to know about their confidence in the product from a reach out from a nuts and bolts practice oh do you think they don't know who we are yeah but did we reach out we i think we did at some point i'm not sure it would have been procurement team but there is absolutely no way that if they if it had there's no way that there was a conversation at humane ai that did not include what about ltd and there is absolutely no way that if I was on that team I would have greenlit sending us one come on what was I gonna say about it was I gonna talk about the design

Starting point is 01:18:34 I'd have been like wow how many I'm sorry how many pixels are in this fucking display I was I'm not gonna lie when when some of the videos started coming out on it i i i was often refreshing the ltd page looking for uh the the resurrection of kickfarted but unfortunately it never happened no i mean i i'd be down to cover it i think we i thought we ordered one or something it might be a little late i haven't followed it up well i don't know i came up with a good title today it doesn't matter how early or late your video is if you've got if you've got that banger title yeah that's true yeah so i came up with a good title it was it was like marquez killed this product or something like that or like i i forget why did marquez murder this yeah exactly look how they massacred my boy

Starting point is 01:19:17 um as long as you've got the title it just really doesn't matter so i'm i'm definitely down to review it i am intentionally not watching any coverage of it like i did with the vision pro so apple's a company that explicitly excludes us from any kind of early access or insider information on their products um because they don't like the way we do things that's fine that's fair enough but um enough. But yeah, the cold hard truth, the basic truth is that that's how independent media works. Everyone has their own methods. Everyone has their own processes. Everyone has their own biases. And the way that you engage is up to you. You're not obligated to send a product to anyone. you you're not obligated to send a product to anyone uh the only reason that that whole thing with nvidia and unbox therapy blew up was because nvidia said the quiet part out loud apple is so careful nvidia yeah hardware unboxed what did i say unbox therapy oh dude i'm sorry

Starting point is 01:20:18 hardware unboxed i'm just yeah yeah thank you the whole the only reason that whole thing went down with hardware unboxed and nvidia was becauseVIDIA said the quiet part out loud. They said, look, if you don't get on board with ray tracing and beat this drum, we're not going to be able to seed you products anymore. Well, okay. Apple's too smart for that. Sorry, I just want to interject for something slightly off topic for a second just before I forget. Because I was supposed to do it at the beginning of the show, but then obviously important things happened. If you're watching on Floatplane, check out the beta.floatplane.com site.

Starting point is 01:20:52 We just pushed a massive update, which you're going to notice probably nothing. But it's really big for us. And we need bug reports. So if you use it, run into any problems, there's a form in the bottom left-hand corner. Click that. Let us know what's going on. Don't tell me in the Flowplane chat because I can't do anything about it right now,

Starting point is 01:21:10 but use that form and let us know. It's a complete removal of the Angular wrapper. It's all in React. It's a big deal. Anyways, sorry, back on the topic. Avery Studios says, MKBHD saved us from a junk product at the end. They can go cry on their pile of unwanted inventory.

Starting point is 01:21:24 And that's 100% true. I mean, I made a comment a little while ago that I think got taken. Well, okay. Basically what I said was, look, um, I don't want anyone to buy this about a product. Um, and that was taken as like that. I had some kind of bias or something, but no. and while I do come with my own set of experiences, obviously, and my own priorities, it was it was not a bias, it was based on my direct experience with the product. And when I said I don't want anyone to buy it, it was I don't want anyone to waste their money. That's my job is that you don't waste your money. And the reason that we've got, you know,

Starting point is 01:22:05 as many subscribers as we do, the reason we have so many people watching right now is because a lot of you seem to have very similar priorities to me. And so what I tend to do is with my experience and with my priorities, I tend to lay out what the case is for, you know, you guys as best I can,

Starting point is 01:22:20 or in some cases, like with something like the PS Portal, lay out, okay, hold on a second, let's go outside of your bubble for a second and talk about the use cases for people who are maybe not you. That's, that's what I'm doing when I'm doing my best. And we have a responsibility to at least try to be consistent when it comes to the application of our, of our rules. So if on the one hand we say, Hey, this thing ain't baked. It's the worst thing I've ever seen. Forget about it. And then on the other hand, we have a product and we say, this thing ain't baked it's the worst thing i've ever seen forget about it and then on the other hand we have a product and we say this thing ain't baked but i you know uh i i love it

Starting point is 01:22:51 and i'm excited for the future anyway then we better have a damn good justification for why we're applying these different standards and we better explain it i think you probably saw something like that with our coverage of intel arc, where we basically said, okay, look, we're rooting for this thing. Darn it, we're rooting for this thing. It isn't very good today, but here's why it's important. I'm going to do my gosh darnedest best to, you know, try to see if this thing is usable at all. But no, you know, I can't give it a straight-faced recommendation, but you've got to explain that. And what's frustrating, I think, you know, I can't give it a, I can't give it a straight faced recommendation, but you've just, you've got to explain that. And what's frustrating, I think sometimes is that you can't count on people to get the whole story.

Starting point is 01:23:32 I think a lot of people saw Marquez's title, which was initially the worst product I've ever reviewed or something like that. And they just look at that and they go, okay, well, that was all he had to say about it. Guys, I think his worst his worst crime was engagement bait right which everybody has to do which realistically we don't make the rules about yeah i yeah um and you kind of owe it to yourself if this is something you're curious about to hear everything he has to say. And you know what? Yeah. Am I guilty of it sometimes, reading just the headline?

Starting point is 01:24:11 Sure, we all are. But we can't be mad solely at a Marquez or an us or whoever, you know, whoever in the media. We also have to be a little mad at ourselves for not getting more than one perspective. A, finish getting that perspective, and B, get a second perspective. I have always, always advocated for multiple perspectives. I have always advocated for a strong, diverse, independent media, because the reality of it is, you know, you are not going to get the same perspective on even something you are not going to get the same perspective on even something that we all use in fundamentally the same way, right? Let's say an iPhone. What is it? Well, hold on a second. It's a computer in our pocket. Yeah, we all use it as

Starting point is 01:24:57 that, but you might game on it. I might use it solely for telecommunications. Someone else might use it only once a month when they're not using their daily driver phone because they need to do a 3D scan of truth and that truth wasn't right how dare they it's losing the entire plot that's my spiel yeah and it sucks because and furthermore he's got to get back that's fine um it was still so fun to watch. Um, also I, I'm going to tangent again, really quickly. I'm stoked that he was very receptive coming back on again. Cause that was a fantastic conversation. Oh, Jim. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:25:52 Yeah. That was sick. Anyway, jumping back to this, it sucks because like you, we, I think we all want to live in a space where companies are a little bit more brazen about the products that they make and are willing to take risks and make weird things and push limits and do stuff like that. And when you're in that environment, things will fail. I don't know if he said it here or it's in an interview that I watched with him recently because I think those things are going to blend in my head for a little while now. But he had a conversation where he was talking about how when creating a product, you can aim for like 30% ahead.

Starting point is 01:26:28 And you could do that every time if you wanted, but it's a big risk. Or you can just aim for 10% ahead every single time, and you'll probably hit more often. And it's fun. It's fun when the company's aimed for 30% ahead. But they're going to miss. And it's not our job to say, job product amazing when they do this star yeah yeah thanks for participating everyone go buy it so that they can make a better one for the people

Starting point is 01:26:51 who didn't waste their money on this one as much as we want companies to take those chances it's a big risk on the company and it's our job to inform consumers so if the thing sucks you gotta say it yep and you need to you need to boil down why because it's very possible like your analogy with the iphone that someone won't care about all the reasons why you think it sucks and they might see some of the reasons why it is good as enough justification for them to buy it so it might be a product for them and that's great it doesn't necessarily mean anything but like yeah i don't know it's unfortunate but it is what it is and we're gonna keep doing what we do and so will everybody else

Starting point is 01:27:30 we sure are i mean uh better people than you have tried to stop us you know who hasn't tried to stop us our sponsors the. These sponsors. The show today is brought to you by MSI. If you're experiencing trouble streaming our latest floatplane exclusive, consider upgrading your motherboard to the MSI MEG Z790 ACE Max for better Wi-Fi. It's equipped with the latest Wi-Fi 7, so you're looking at speeds and, okay, for real, like really, really flipping fast. It's absolutely incredible.

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Starting point is 01:28:49 So check out their MSI MagZ790 Ace Max at the link down below. The show is also brought to you by Squarespace. Are you struggling to build a website after watching hours of tutorials online? Squarespace makes building a website super easy and everyone can do it. We use Squarespace to build our websites too. Even though Colton doesn't have any coding experience, he can make changes with just a couple of clicks. Squarespace is an all-in-one platform with a variety of customizable themes

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Starting point is 01:30:37 All right. God-tier transition. We're supposed to get into some merch messages here. For those of you who are new to the WAN Show, welcome. Yeah. And welcome to the concept of merch messages. I mean, you guys love throwing money at streamers and through your screen. Product posts.

Starting point is 01:30:54 I get it. That's super cool. You know, super chats and Twitch bits and all that kind of stuff. But the way that I see it, you should get something in return for that money. They should throw something right back at you, and that's what merch messages is. All you gotta do if you want to interact with the show is head over to lttstore.com, check out our

Starting point is 01:31:11 actually shockingly wide array of products. I forgot to offer Jim some merch. Okay, doesn't matter. The point is we'll get something over to him. I can approximate his size based on him. Anyway, the point is head over to lttstore.com and in the cart, you will see a little box whenever we're live that gives you the opportunity

Starting point is 01:31:28 to send a merch message. It will go to Producer Dan, who will... What are you wearing? Is that just the moire from your... Oh, I see. I don't know. It always does this. Cool. Okay. Well, it'll go to Producer Dan,

Starting point is 01:31:39 who will either reply to it directly, forward it to someone who can answer your question, or throw it down here or finally curate it for me and luke to read on the show uh we've got a few to go through right now just to show you guys kind of how it works so why don't we go ahead and get that started sure do you have an eta on the mouse portion of labs there's an explosion of mice on the market and would love to get some info on them i'll never cash this gift card if it's sometime this year um let me find out in the meantime do you want to read another one sure uh let's see speaking of berkeley i'm curious if you have thoughts on the recent

Starting point is 01:32:20 research paper showing that 55 000 plus v VR users can be uniquely identified based on head and hand motion data captured in Beat Saber. I didn't hear about that. You ever heard of gate analysis as well? Just by how you walk? Yeah, I know gate analysis. I know that because my vision is bad, but I can identify

Starting point is 01:32:41 who people are. You've mentioned that to me a couple times. Yeah. So, who owns Beat Games again? Facebook? Cool. Oh. Saber Barrett. It's Facebook.

Starting point is 01:32:58 Meta, excuse me. Uh-oh. Facebook. Uh-oh. Oh, man. Okay, well, let me find out about the mouse thing anyway um oh hi gary you're live on the wan show give me one sec um the audience noted the absolute explosion in the gaming mouse market lately and they were all hey when are you guys going to have your mouse testing for labs all figured out? Mouse testing of labs should be figured out within the next 30 days.

Starting point is 01:33:31 We have all the equipment in. It's being set up right now by Antoine and Sharon. And probably in about a week or so, we'll start early testing on it. Within about three to four weeks uh yeah we should have results and we'll give them up for people to look at okay and we'll have uh what are the main things we're focusing on we're obviously going to have like click consistency or like click uh characterization graphs right we're going to be able to do acceleration. We're going to be able to do tracking accuracy and precision. Any other major stuff that we're looking at?

Starting point is 01:34:10 Latency, okay. Yeah. No, that covers most of it. Okay. Oh, man. You know what would be really cool, Gary, that I just thought of, and I'm sorry I'm bringing this to you live in front of 10,000 people, but we are planning to implement or integrate 3d scanning into part of our product ingest

Starting point is 01:34:30 process right yes are we planning to are we planning to like publish an stl file on the labs page so people could evaluate the ergonomics for themselves that would be sick we will eventually get there yes luke's cringing he's so unhappy right now he's cringing well it's just a download it's just a file download luke i'm sure your team can figure it out that's not linus led development let's gous-led development is a terrible idea. All right. Thanks, Gary. Yeah, just ask Luke about embedded video also. Sick. All right. Talk to you later. Okay. Take care.

Starting point is 01:35:16 All right. Cool. So that's Gary, head of labs. So you heard it here first. 30 days, so soon. That's the filtered by management version of that yeah very very excited for that um i don't even know what what would we even use for the scans because i think we've got that like handheld scanner coming but if it's something as small as a mouse i see no reason why we couldn't use the um oh bloody oh, bloody hell. I forgot the name of the, I forgot the name of the company. I'm sure someone internally will tell you. Yeah. CT scanner. Um, Luma, Luma field. I see no reason

Starting point is 01:35:54 why we couldn't use the Luma field for something like that. Oh man, that would be, that would be sick. Elijah says I'll model it in blender by hand every time. No scanner needed. Yeah. You're going to do it. I thought, okay. Anyway, Dan, I want to hit me with one more merch message. it in blender by hand every time no scanner needed yeah you're gonna dude i thought anyway dan uh want to hit me with one more merch message uh yeah sure did you have any more follow-up nightmares about the beat saber no i just i hate it okay thanks i hate it you're welcome i actually would have been happier not knowing that it makes perfect sense obviously the way that we i had to read it i mean i could tell what member of my family was walking up the stairs you know just by listening to them and i'm i'm just a monkey brain, right?

Starting point is 01:36:27 I usually tell who's walking up to the WAN set just by hearing how they walk. Yeah, so none of this should be... So it was a matter of time. None of this should be that surprising, but damn, technology. You're cool, but, like, also buzz off sometimes, you know? Yeah. Yeah, all right, cool. What's next? I had a bad day as an IT tech.

Starting point is 01:36:46 Security IT told me to connect an infected PC to the hospital work land and log in with admin credentials to investigate. Felt sick the whole time. How would you handle such a ludicrous ask? Say no? Um, bring them substantial information on why this is a bad idea and propose an alternative solution that you have also laid out thoroughly of how you can get the results spy spy flick of some sort and the way that the bad guy compromises like the the the lab or whatever is by getting an infected laptop in and like their like head of it basically just plugs it into the network and it takes over all the screens and

Starting point is 01:37:38 everything and i'm just like uh that was actually the inspiration for a video we still haven't made all these years later but i wanted to do it experts react to tech in movies, kind of like Corridor Crew. Now that I've said that out loud, I'm putting pressure on the team to get that going. If you guys have any clever ideas, by the way, where could they post them? Clever ideas like of movies to watch? Of particular scenes. Oh, yeah. One of the opening scenes to the new Tron.

Starting point is 01:38:06 Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on, though. Okay. we need a place for people to put things where can where can we do that what swordfish just the movie i could come up with an entire script dan's gonna dan's gonna get a link for you guys to what was it skyfall was that the one um okay people are saying skyfall for the one that i was talking about uh anyway yeah so we need we need to get we need to get some scenes together i'd love to have like wendell come on and be a guest host for something like that that'd be awesome um it may be oh man if we could get it together in time maybe we could shoot it at computex and we could get some some fun of course we can get it together get some fun guests well i don't know i mean i came up with the idea when skyfall was in theaters so that should give you

Starting point is 01:38:47 some idea i can easily get a list of scenes for you by like the end of the weekend uh release that wasn't skyfall came out in 2012 okay it wasn't when it was in theaters then it was at some point if if it was skyfall i actually don't remember exactly which movie it was i was just going based on when your linux iso collector got it people talking about that oh now he knows what movie it was from no i don't know i'm taking floatplane chat's word for it you guys this is this is all i have to go on it's it's you guys who are telling me what movie it's from all right yeah we'll we'll get this going so dan dan you're on that right uh sure he's gonna post a link in chat of some sort that forum ltt forum is that doable uh i guess so yeah yeah dan cool he's a cool guy look at him go look at his fingers

Starting point is 01:39:36 tight uh all right you know i don't listen to you when you're talking why do we jump right into our next topic uh luke have you seen this kickstarter huh have you seen this kickstarter probably not oh no from okay we're going to watch it together awesome okay this is the paint cam eve it is a face recognition and paintball firing security system supposedly uh where's the dang it where's the where's the video oh upcoming project bloody heck no no no there's no there's a video there's a video okay hold on is the video on interesting engineering here it is uh what am i even looking at here what is this i saw a video i think i got it you got it okay no i don't no i don't okay gosh darn it oh wait hold on hold on well i do i have videos from other people oh

Starting point is 01:40:35 i got it okay you got it okay we're going to luke's laptop here it is we've got audio do we care about the audio no it doesn't matter okay cool yeah introducing paint cam eve an ai powered robotic security system i would like i would like to know um i mean i'd like to know so many things uh face recognition animal recognition where where where is the hopper for those paintballs that came out of there can't be very many that came out of the oh okay it didn't quite come out of the cameras um that's it yeah yeah that was it i saw i saw another video a little while back um can i just say for a moment no i'm gonna get through the thing first slovanian startup oz it is seeking funding for a home surveillance system called paint cam eve that uses facial recognition and motion detection to detect and assess potential threats it can also shoot these threats with uv paint gall paint balls or get this

Starting point is 01:41:38 tear gas rounds according to oz it same class the system allows for remote monitoring, but can also operate fully autonomously without internet. After identifying an intruder in a forbidden area, the device will issue a verbal warning, followed by a five-second countdown. If the intruder fails to retreat, the device will aim for their chest and start firing. If the intruder fails to retreat, the device will aim for their chest and start firing. Oz IT claims the EVE system will be able to recognize specific people, as well as animals and specific objects. If an unknown person approaches alongside a familiar guest, the system will notify the user, seeking further instructions. So I saw a demo somewhere where they had a known person standing in front of the unknown person and it like it didn't fire not that that could be faked or doctored at all so

Starting point is 01:42:31 i would like to i would like to ask and i guess i'm addressing oz it directly here i would like to ask your engineers leadership sure have you ever fired a paintball gun do you have any idea why we don't use musket rounds anymore have you seen how inaccurate they are if you fire at someone's chest with a paintball round. Do you have any idea what your liability is going to look like when somebody loses a f***ing eye? I mean, even if this thing worked as well as you think it did, even if you, with your however many hundreds of dollars you're going to raise on kickstarter managed to create an automated turret the likes of which many much larger teams have tried to create with sometimes catastrophic results even if you did that the round you're firing is so spectacularly stupidly

Starting point is 01:43:41 inaccurate that this is a disaster before you even wake up from the weird f***ing fever dream that you had and thought oh that seems like a good idea i mean people have already made these like of course they have wait didn't uh didn't hasn't a youtuber made this um i'm only remembering this now what's his i know the channel boy boy i don't remember what the channel where they make the things on is called um maybe i can find it by just looking at boy boy michael reeves i mean yeah he's probably done something like that i did a thing that's it yeah didn't he make one i mean we're working on a water one for my cats to keep them from scratching up my carpets but that's a whole separate conversation.

Starting point is 01:44:27 The point is, hey, thanks for coming out. This is a really, really bad idea. Yeah, so it's a bad idea because most, like, this is a creator from Slovenia, so we don't know what the laws are there. I see a large amount of Americans in the chat talking about how this is definitely illegal and is a federal offense which is why I'm assuming they're Americans um but like this is this is a company in Slovenia but uh people have done this I'm gonna show off oh yeah it's on my screen now I did a thing as a video I made an illegal home

Starting point is 01:45:02 security system where he just straps a paintball gun to a camera on a tripod that like can do things and it uh it i think that yeah they wore t-shirts with someone's face on it and then had it shoot them for a while this is not this is not advanced technology this is like it's very doable yes and you'll get in insane amounts of trouble because most countries that i know of have some form of legal system around based around like automated home defense and the way that that's usually set up is because of traps, booby traps and stuff. And there's been cases where people will like rig a shotgun so that if like a barn door is opened, the shotgun will shoot out and yeah,

Starting point is 01:45:55 that's not okay. It's actually super dumb and super bad. The damage that is inflicted, the person who ends up being responsible for that is, is not the thing that ends up being responsible for that is is not the thing that ends up being responsible that is not this automated turret it's you yeah and like uh yeah the second this paintball hurts someone or doesn't and then that person just claims that it hurt them yeah you're screwed that's a big one you're screwed the whole just like people claiming

Starting point is 01:46:22 stuff and then i'm traumatized now all of a sudden it's on you to prove that i i can't open doors without fear anymore i need therapy for the rest of my life yeah you're gonna pay for it now you're out millions bob icarus says paintballs can be fairly accurate but you need a pretty long barrel to actually get the round to spiral that little camera was like yeah bob yeah bob brought that up it had a maximum like two inch barrel there is absolutely and bob icarus is right at a range of but that's the thing right like got a range of let's show 10 meters 30 feet i could probably hit an aluminum can pretty consistently like i'll miss but i'll miss by a little bit like i could

Starting point is 01:47:08 hit a torso no problem from that distance every time however the problem is that uh a 30 feet that's nothing presumably this thing is not mounted like at the perimeter of wherever you're trying to protect like it's it's like a home security thing by the time someone is within 30 feet of this thing if you have it mounted in a traditional security camera location i think it's supposed to be indoors indoors oh well that's what this this security camera thing is indoors outdoors well how long would its range be well that's my point that's even more insane is is you're gonna you're gonna have like facial recognition someone just walking down the street you're gonna have 20 you're gonna have 20 of those

Starting point is 01:47:54 feet just in the distance to the ground yeah not to mention you're gonna have to compensate for drop-off somehow okay hold on a second this is getting even more complicated tear gas in your house yeah okay fair enough yeah and then barrel, that barrel further complicates it. This thing is not going to be accurate. It has absolutely no hope whatsoever of being accurate at all. I assumed this was just indoors. It being outdoors makes it significantly more hilarious. I mean, there's some amount of like, you know, accuracy and volume

Starting point is 01:48:22 where if it's able to shoot just like a huge amount of stuff it's the hopper on that thing uh yeah six rounds i didn't see one at all so yeah i don't know if they have like maybe maybe it gets fed through something that's like on the other side of the wall or yeti wrangler says porch pirates maybe but yeah but if it gives them a five second warning i could be often on your porch in five seconds and the first porch pirate that gets shot by that is just going to tell everyone else they know and everyone else is going to go get shot and then they're going to sue the heck out of you like that'll be the new scam yeah getting shot by these things you can sue the owners um in probably i'm assuming most countries we don't know about all of them maybe

Starting point is 01:49:00 in slovenia having automated defenses for your home is totally fine. Calibarn says, um, actually I have a 98 custom where the barrel curves up. It's pretty accurate at long range. Does not have to be a long barrel. Yeah. But your 98 custom barrel is like four to five times the length of this barrel.

Starting point is 01:49:16 This little tiny security camera barrel is very small. Yeah. That's, that's part of the problem. So many problems. Uh, why don't we jump into our next topic, which is sad and happy? Remember the spiffing Brit tea PC that had that teapot pouring as part of the water loop?

Starting point is 01:49:35 Yeah. Well, we have an update on it. Unfortunately, as we feared, it did indeed break in transit. And as we feared, the t in the loop did indeed start supporting life okay so here's a question right off the hop it broke in transit when did we send this i don't know a thousand years ago yeah what well he hasn't been using it but hold on the story the story continues so this is this is the spiffing Brit PC. What was up with my hair that day? I had,

Starting point is 01:50:05 you were on a, I have no idea. This was only a year ago. Is this that YouTube thing where it was like essentially two years ago? This was a year and a half ago. Yeah. Um, man,

Starting point is 01:50:15 look at this. This is awful. Anyway, the point is here's the finished PC. Did we ever actually, yeah, there we go. We did an actual montage so you could check out the system.

Starting point is 01:50:22 Absolutely incredible. Alex outdid himself. I got that, got that teapotot got that teapot action unfortunately the system has not been in action finding loopholes and exploits on the perfectly balanced youtube platform according to overclockers uk who repaired the pc the gpu moved laterally in transit causing the riser cable to essentially split in half i'm only going to check out this close-up here because you guys should definitely go check out overclockers uk's video they did a whole video on this i've seen this before uh i wish it surprised me but yep this is the thing that happens you can see it it broke so that would explain why it wasn't

Starting point is 01:51:03 working normally you want to ship those separately but water cooled in yeah it's a little hard not always an option yeah um the repair team didn't have an identical replacement so they used a gen 4 phanteks riser cable with an adapter bracket the water block radiator and loop despite being gross were successfully cleaned, though the pipe through the teapot was apparently too disgusting and had to be replaced. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. Oh, I think they're saying the GPU block was successfully cleaned.

Starting point is 01:51:34 The CPU block apparently turned out to be restricting the flow rate and had to be replaced, as well as the D5 pump. Interesting. Are they saying that it was because of the growth or because of... It must be it. D5 is... It was just very restrictive uh no the block um anyway i'm surprised they weren't able to clean the d5 as well anyway but well they said as well as the d5 pump right interesting meaning that had the same problem anyway the t has apparently been replaced with a combination of ek cryo fuel that

Starting point is 01:52:00 has then died to resemble t and everything else seems to have arrived in working order uh they apparently added their own branded mug to the build. Okay, that's the last thing that I am going to check out. I want to see how they integrated their stuff into our original build here. Here it is. So here's their footage. So they've added a Barrow CPU block.

Starting point is 01:52:22 And where's their mug? Where's your mug at, boys? I honestly, I looked for it. Show me your mug. No, not that mug! Get it? His face? The Yorkshire tea box, I don't think, was originally there.

Starting point is 01:52:36 I believe it was, actually. Oh. That would have been an Alex innovation. I don't see the mug. Yeah, I couldn't see it. Well, anyway, great job. Thanks for getting that fixed up. Why do we ever build computers for creators?

Starting point is 01:52:51 They always get broken in transit. And the funny thing is like we even, man, we went out of our way. T-Box was there, okay. We create things. Couriers are just determined to destroy things. You know what? I think people

Starting point is 01:53:05 don't appreciate what transit does to things there's a reason that PC companies are like yeah you know what we only build computers in America for Americans because the longer something goes the greater the chance

Starting point is 01:53:21 that it will essentially vibrate itself into pieces check this out um here hold on i'm just trying to find this thing here we go uh the no where is it dang it there's this new it's either new or it's uh it was recently in the news cycle. It's a hard drive destroyer, data sanitizer thingamajig, that works solely on vibration. What's the company called?

Starting point is 01:54:00 No, no, that's not it. I bloody well hate it. Here we go. Garner. There we go. Here it is. Okay, this is a promotional product, so I have no problem showing this video in its entire, or it's a promotional video for a product. Realistically, they're not going to get mad at us. It's called the Disc Mantler. Patent pending from Garner. You put the hard drive in, check this out. It shakes it.

Starting point is 01:54:21 You put the hard drive in. Check this out. It shakes it. That's right, friends. See you later. That's some vigorous shaking. Everything is disassembled. It apparently does it in just a couple of minutes or something like that. And I think people underestimate what sitting on a truck or in the cargo hold of an airplane or being anywhere being on it being

Starting point is 01:54:47 on a ship with those with those diesel engines going under it i think they underestimate what these conditions do to a product heat cycling increasing decreasing shaking and vibrating um i think i've told this story before but i used to have a very reliable client when i used to do like it stuff on the side um who was a trucker who was actually on like some trucking tv show at some point or whatever but he would often have his laptop running on his passenger seat and it would just shake itself to death because they were all hard drives back then yeah and he would come back to me you know every however long and another hard drive's dead. He doesn't need a better laptop.

Starting point is 01:55:26 He uses it for like almost nothing, but he just needed a new drive. And I would have, I had like his favorite desktop background, which was like him standing next to his motorbike or whatever. So I would like set it back up exactly how he liked it with the programs that he liked. I didn't have an exact ISO because like, obviously some things would change, whatever. And, and I'll just rebuild it for him every time and then ssds became like a thing and i was like well man i like hate to say it but this is the last time i'm gonna do this for you he's like why i was like i got you a new thing i'm not

Starting point is 01:55:55 gonna bother explain it but it's not gonna die anymore and he was like oh okay cool and then yeah never heard from him again it is what it is um apparently uh yeah it's apparently doc i was sorry this is totally unrelated apparently doc martin's you know like the shoes is really struggling right now and a big part of the problem might be that they have kind of quality themselves into uh financial trouble because their stuff just like lasts for a really long time. SSDs, because of the growth in capacity in performance initially, and then especially capacity now, I think have kind of saved themselves from that. But I hate to, I hate to be this guy. This is a really scary thing to say, but I feel like we've reached the point now where

Starting point is 01:56:45 people aren't going to need to upgrade their SSDs that much anymore. Like one terabyte has been kind of a magic sweet spot for what is definitely good enough for a boot drive for a long time. And I might buy some more storage. But that was not the way it worked before. I was essentially replacing my drive for a long time as we made our way through 60 gigs, 120 gigs, 256. And yeah, you could run your OS on it, but for convenience, people were getting a new system, they were just getting a new SSD that was a much greater capacity.

Starting point is 01:57:21 I feel like we've reached the point now where it's just not really necessary anymore and unless you are you know pull an apple and lock the ssd to the system yeah you're going to be stuck with people just wanting to carry their drives forward yeah uh speaking of upgrading and building quality products that don't need to be replaced very often ltdstore.com we've actually got a couple new products if you guys uh we're looking for an excuse to send a merch message we've got our phase these look sick pullover hoodie and uh zip up hoodie and t-shirt

Starting point is 01:57:56 these are genuinely super cool so this design started off inspired by um shoot it was something oh yeah it started off inspired by like a vhs yeah low fidelity kind of thing that lloyd pitched me and i was like yeah i see where you're going but yeah no but you know what take this part that really reminds me of those image tests. And let's just lean into that. And he came up with this design that I think is so flipping awesome. So these are kind of like inspired by resolution test patterns. We've got like a little color block there just to add a nice little splash of color to the design. I don't know what the 23 is anymore it doesn't matter the point is we've got a few different colorways and you guys can check that out we've also got a pullover hoodie and a zip up hoodie

Starting point is 01:58:56 in the design so there you go i think it looks great and course, it's your typical LTT quality. Oh, look at that. We've got navy hoodies now. Noice. Noice. Test shirt, please ignore. That's a pretty funny name for it. Sorry, what's that, Luke? Test shirt, please ignore.

Starting point is 01:59:21 Where? Corey is the name in chat. Said you should call it test shirt, please ignore. Where? Corey is the name in chat. Said you should call it test shirt. Please ignore. Yes. Dan. Year 23. Yeah, but that doesn't mean anything.

Starting point is 01:59:34 Dan, why does your thing say when after dark? Are we out of topic time already? No, no. Basically, it can just go whenever now. I know that Luke may want to step out. Okay. No, I'm still good. As long as I'm home by like 9.

Starting point is 01:59:48 Oh, okay, cool. Watcher leaves YouTube. I have to confess, as someone who doesn't watch that much YouTube, I hadn't Watchered them before, but it's a really interesting business move and something that I thought, you know, Luke might have some thoughts to share. Watcher Entertainment,

Starting point is 02:00:03 a media company founded four years ago by three former BuzzFeed creators, has officially announced they are leaving YouTube and beginning their own ad-free subscription streaming service, WatcherTV.com. According to the founders, they have found themselves increasingly split between creating the content that their fans want and creating the content that appeals fans want and creating the content

Starting point is 02:00:26 that appeals to advertisers and to YouTube's algorithm. Further, they've been dealing with a tension between the costs necessary to maintain television-like artistic standards and the financial model that is required to thrive on YouTube. Their hope is that switching to their own streaming service will allow them to build a more sustainable business and rely less on advertisers. The site went live today. It's currently priced at $6 a month or $60 a year, and they're offering 30% off the first year, I assume that might be a typo here,

Starting point is 02:00:58 for anyone who subscribes before May 31st, as well as the opportunity to vote on which previously cancelled Watcher series should be revived. This is an interesting move. I think they're doomed. Yeah, me too. I think I said, I think it was literally last WAN show where I gave my like five websites statement, which is, my theory on this, I'll try to keep it short, is that roughly everyone has roughly five websites each that they go to. It's not the same five websites for everybody, but most people have like a few websites that they go to and pretty much nothing else.

Starting point is 02:01:35 And if you leave that sphere for people, you're gone. And you can sort of exist in both. Like, you can have a foot outside like i suspect you know the vast majority of the lion's tech tips audience doesn't go to floatplane all the time the floatplane subscribers do sure but we're on youtube so our visibility doesn't go away people still know that we exist but by completely leaving the the youtubes the reddits the whatever things like that of the facebooks of the world by leaving those entirely your discoverability goes away now they are planning to upload i think they were saying like the first few videos of a given series on youtube but then the idea i guess is they're

Starting point is 02:02:19 paywalling the rest of it so kind of like if uh if netflix just uploaded the first episode of every series to youtube that's a better that's a better idea than i i thought it was but i still think that this is going to be an incredible challenge i mean we've um we struggle with all the same things you know how do we balance increasing production values how do we balance and i i do think that it's a little bit um misleading to whether it's our notes or their feelings or whatever i do feel that it's not it's not quite right to say that you have to fight between or you're torn between what the algorithm wants and what the audience wants because the algorithm and the audience are one in the same ish because the algorithmic audience is the the broader audience whereas i think that if you were to say if i were to say my audience right who would

Starting point is 02:03:17 i be thinking of would i be thinking of a random flyby who happens to come across one of our videos one time gets engaged with it, watches that video, and then never watches another LTT video? No, I wouldn't think of that person as my audience. I would think of that person as my algorithmic, I don't know, person that YouTube managed to serve this thing to, right? Like, they're not my audience. When I think of my audience, I think of the WAN show viewers. I think of the people who are actually enabling notifications on their phone and, and clicking on them when they come up, which by the way, is very small in case you guys were curious. I wanted to make a video about that for a while. I even came up with the title. You won't click this notification, um, because they won't. It's like, it's like a fraction of a percent or something like that.

Starting point is 02:04:03 It's like absolutely minuscule. Anyway, like, so there's different ways to define my audience. And so in that sense, if I were to talk about the differences between what the algorithm wants and what my audience wants, it makes sense. And I think that's what they're talking about. But the danger of catering to this one, catering to my audience, catering to you guys with the mainline content versus catering to you guys with the WAN show on a weekly basis where we really get to sit down and hang out, catering to you guys with behind the scenes on float plane where we'll pull silly pranks on each other and you can kind of see

Starting point is 02:04:42 the real personalities come out. We'll get deeper tanner did a really cool video doing a deeper dive on that north korean wii u clone thing um that's the kind of stuff that we want to make and and we understand that you guys want to see but we can't infect the mainline content with that because that's our discovery funnel right we need that algorithmic audience and if if you're putting out, if you're casting fewer nets out into that sea of potential audience members, that audience, that core audience, it's going to decay. And, you know, I've seen every reason under the sun for someone to cite that they're not going to watch anymore. I had someone tell me how disappointed they were that we built such a cheapskate computer for that person who begged for one, and that it really showed how not generous we were. It was hilarious because it

Starting point is 02:05:42 came literally the day after we raised $100,000 for sick kids, right? A video they clearly didn't watch. Imagine for a second if it had absolutely nothing to do with that and had everything to do with what I said, which is that we wanted it to be something good enough to really be a gaming PC worth going and getting, but not so good that they were going to get murdered on the way home. that was it that that was the imagine whole skit imagine it gets stabbed in the back i think imagine for a second if the reason was just what i told you that's not the

Starting point is 02:06:17 great part sorry the skit was great yeah um sorry where was i where was i going with this right i i've been given every reason under the sun for someone to stop watching anymore. But the reality of it is, most of the time, it's that you've changed. You've moved on. I've probably changed too, but I suspect I haven't changed as much as you have in terms of the products that we're trying to upload. We're always trying to do things a little bit differently. We're trying to do them a little bit better. But the cold hard truth is what's

Starting point is 02:06:48 probably happened. And this is particularly understandable lately with tech, at least in the, you know, on the gaming, PC gaming side, the traditional PC gaming side getting, you know, kind of stagnant compared to what we're used to kind of, kind of boring compared to what we're used to. Right. Um, that's probably the, the most honest reason that people have given me for, for, for not watching anymore. Now, if I had a dollar for every time someone said they're not watching anymore because we're constantly making jokes and the juvenile humor, I'm going to say we never did that in 2012. Okay, buddy's that's a new thing that's a new thing if anything it's probably gotten less to be completely honest yeah i don't know maybe that's

Starting point is 02:07:32 it maybe it's more jarring now maybe i don't know there's still a fair bit i doubt it yeah there's still a fair bit so i've done some poking around while we've been sitting here but anyway okay so hold on let me finish let me finish really quick i'm sorry um so by not by not casting out nets to the algorithmic audience right the broader audience you aren't replenishing the core audience and that attrition is unavoidable you can't watch the same tv show forever yeah think about it you can't play the same video game forever one person in the audience is like i've played starcraft since i was born we're not mostly we're not mostly wired like that and so i i think that while this is something that could be very successful uh in the short term they could convert a significant amount of their current core

Starting point is 02:08:24 audience over to this paid platform uh i i worry i mean it's not like this isn't the kind of thing that we've dabbled in in the past we were one of the we were as far as i can tell the only relevant creator on vessel.com we built floatplane like sweat blood and tears built floatplane in an effort to to create that sustainability most of the creators on vessel.com stopped kind of doing the early access thing all this kind of stuff we weren't the only relevant creator on the platform we were the only relevant creator to vessel in terms of revenue yeah sorry i should clarify um anyway so i i've done some looking around someone in the chat pointed out

Starting point is 02:09:02 dimension or sorry not dimension well dimension 20 is one of their products. But Dropout.tv, which I think was a really, really good call out of a channel that has done something similar. As far as my understanding goes, actually, I'm not even going to go there because I don't even know. But they do a really good job. They still get into the brain space on the main channels. They do stuff with shorts um and i i think they might still release full videos here there um every now and again but it's a funnel into dropout tv for the most part and as far as my understanding goes they're very

Starting point is 02:09:37 successful with this they also have a very large amount of different shows and shows with like very die-hard dedicated audiences which is exactly what you would need in order to do this murik says dropout uses vimeo as their their backbone provider yes um and i think that's a good idea i think that's how they should do that if they wanted to do this approach where it's one creator one website they want the thing they should just use another service like vimeo vimeimeo is a great solution there and run it that way. Yeah, Dropout has a ton of different series and they've been doing this for a long time.

Starting point is 02:10:15 They're very well set up. Now, looking into it as well, it's like, okay, what external monetization does Watcher have? So first thing you look for is there are more links on their YouTube channel and you can see Patreon. So,'s go to their patreon if i can click things well they've converted 1200 members which is very good conversion very respectable they're doing a great job they've got what looks like well fleshed out good tears we could maybe learn something from that um they do you know they've got a seven this is all canadian dollars so the 750 is probably five bucks looking at some form of standardization it's probably five

Starting point is 02:10:49 usd 10 usd i don't know maybe six something around that i don't know exactly um but they've they've got a good pricing range they even have the like whale big crazy one yep um and they seem to be posting actively so they they they can convert people to outside platforms they can shown that they have a very strong outside platform presence um one thing that they might unfortunately find is that patreon is one of those websites that a lot of people go to it might be harder to convert to a external platform non-patreon funding website um i have looked into watchers website as well watcher.tv and this is also built with vimeo um as the video playing back end someone pointed out that dropout was done that way this one is also done that way i don't remember how i determined

Starting point is 02:11:38 that i think it was this video uh you can pretty easily tell this is the Vimeo player, but another fun thing to do is like, let's just copy this URL and go to builtwith.com. And you just paste in the URL and you can see like all the things that they're using. And if you scroll down a little bit to audio and video media, you can see Vimeo. So, yeah, they're using Vimeimeo which seems like probably a good idea for what they're doing so they're doing a lot of things well from my judgment i don't know what that matters but um i don't know i wish them the best i hope they do the thing that dropout tv is doing where they still sprinkle out content quite healthily and really start trying to grasp onto things like shorts where they can try to convert people look there's this really tasty little nibble from this video you need to

Starting point is 02:12:31 go over this other side to watch it um yeah someone in someone's chat said rooster teeth did it for a while but then it just slowly went into obscurity that's the risk. That's why this is terrifying. Rooster Teeth is not the only example that that's happened to. It's just a really big name. But yeah, this is scary, but I wish them the best. I hope it goes well. Yeah. I don't know, man.

Starting point is 02:13:09 It's tough. Did I say 1,200 i say 1200 yeah i meant 12 000 sorry yeah once you've once you've got an audience it's um you know it's something but it's it's small like we've we've got 35 000 subscribers on floatplane we are we are one of the top patreons except we're not on patreon yeah um we've been very very successful at it and still in the grand scheme of things guys the the revenue that we can generate on an audience that small even directly as paying customers it pales in comparison to the costs associated with hosting video. Hosting video through Vimeo is not cheap. And it pales in comparison to, you know, what you can generate more broadly through ads and sponsorships and all those things on a platform like YouTube. I do. Yeah, I do. I worry. I worry about them. That's all. I mean,

Starting point is 02:14:06 these aren't people that I know personally or anything like that. But I generally think the creator economy is pretty cool. I think of other creators as my my fellow creators. These are people who have gone through a lot of the same struggles, a lot of the same challenges that we have. And I want nothing but the best for them. But I fear. I fear for these kinds of moves. They can be, and I'm sure they feel it too, right? It can be scary because once you've left, it's not that easy to just come back.

Starting point is 02:14:40 What else we got today? Spiffing Brent, Jim Keller. We talked about the... Ooh, I didn't mention during that merch update that all of the Labs t-shirt pullover and zip-up are print-to-order, so the shipping will be delayed. Whoops.

Starting point is 02:14:57 Okay, this was actually from last week or a week before. I don't remember when it was, but HP has been sued for their alleged printer ink monopoly. Again. HP has been sued for their alleged printer ink monopoly again. HP has used printer firmware updates to create a monopoly, alleges the newest class action lawsuit brought against the company for their dynamic security feature. The lawsuit, filed in Illinois, alleges that firmware updates in late 2022 to early 2023

Starting point is 02:15:22 blocked HP printers from using non-HP ink cartridges, forcing owners to buy first-party ink and lose the value of any non-HP branded cartridges that they already had. This isn't the first time that HP has faced a lawsuit over this practice since dynamic security was introduced in 2016. HP has settled a California class action for $1.5 million in 2019 admitting no wrongdoing but agreeing to prohibit use of the firmware they are facing a separate California lawsuit seeking injunction against the practice they've agreed to pay about 50 Australian dollars to affected Australians in 2018 admitting the company likely breached consumer law they were ordered to label printer packaging to reflect the first party incrimination

Starting point is 02:16:02 they were fined 10 million euros by the Italian government in 2020 in order to modify sales packages of printers. And they agreed to settle a complaint pertaining to customers in Belgium, Italy, Spain, and Portugal for 1.35 million dollars, admitting no wrongdoing. And they settled a Canadian class action in 2019 for a maximum of 700,000 CAD, denying they did anything wrong. Our discussion question is, how many times do we have to prove that what HP is doing is not okay

Starting point is 02:16:29 in order for this to stop? I don't think there's a limit, to be completely honest. I think this is just how it goes. I think they're kind of like limit testing to see what they will and won't get sued for. And they can do it as many times as they want. This is like, we've talked about this before, about like...

Starting point is 02:16:51 There's so much money in maintaining your monopoly and building customers. That it's worth just getting sued over and over and over again. Because you're never going to get sued hard enough. Because everything's mostly just a slap on the wrist. So who's going to be the one that finally goes after them i mean the u.s has kind of woken up recently but i feel like they've got their hands full with uh apple right now oh hey should we talk about b Dynamics' new robot? One day, one day after they announced that Atlas is no more,

Starting point is 02:17:30 they announced a new all-electric humanoid robot also named Atlas. You want to watch the video? Yeah, I mean, I've watched it now, obviously, but it's worth watching again. I love how they made it stand up it's just dude seriously this legitimately reminds me of irobot like it it looks more it looks more fake than it does real yeah it looks like it looks like a game it looks like a character out of a portal game or something like it i've always had kind of a theory that like the the people and the contracts that are that are working with boston dynamics they they kind of want their videos to appear sort of terrifying

Starting point is 02:18:17 um i don't know. They are masters. Masters at viral marketing. I mean, they've got 4 million views on this video. Yeah. And the more terrifying they make it, the more people are going to share it. Oh, have you seen this? It's crazy.

Starting point is 02:18:36 It's spooky, man. The robots are going to take over. This looks super cool, dude. I mean, yeah, it makes sense, right? Like, why do your limbs have to only bend the way that human limbs do? They might as well just, like, bend in any way that you want, but, like, but still be human-shaped so that you can take advantage of how the world is kind of made for humans.

Starting point is 02:18:55 What kind of jobs are these going to do? I am amazed at how, and obviously we can't quite tell, but I am amazed at how apparently human-like the form factor is. I don't know. I mean, obviously I'm not an expert when it comes to robotic design. Is it much more human-like than Atlas was? Atlas was pretty bulky.las was like a human with a gigantic backpack you know some people are pretty bulky but this is atlas was very like barrel chested yeah i guess the the legs on atlas were kind of like naturally curved out so that wasn't as atlas was hydraulic right. Yeah. Yeah, but that doesn't change appearance much.

Starting point is 02:19:46 It might be the extra overhead of all the cables and pumps and things, maybe. This is wild, dude. It's nuts. I just keep looking at this going like, I thought we were, like, I'm obviously not an expert when it comes to robotics, right? Like, it's not what I do. But I thought we were a lot more years away from something that was this clean and this compact. That's what's really blowing me away about this. Like, how does that have enough battery power to operate on board it?

Starting point is 02:20:16 Yeah, like, where even is it? Probably in the chest somewhere, but still, that's wild. Yeah, right? Why wouldn't you just put it everywhere? Yeah, I mean, maybe. mean maybe yeah well more wiring is actually it has complication i mean it might help with weight distribution but no idea there's definitely going to be trade-offs there wireless charging in the feet yeah that that you might also not have one battery that powers the whole thing like those those like uh it's like quad where where you

Starting point is 02:20:46 would normally have quad muscles are pretty bulky there might be batteries like for the legs in that area not sure or that's just all infrastructure for the knees that's probably what it is man i have no idea i don't know yeah figure robots we I'm pretty sure we've watched that figure AI video on WAN, didn't we? Where it hands the person the apple and stuff? Did we not watch that? I can't remember. Yeah. We did on WAN?

Starting point is 02:21:16 We did? I don't remember. Sorry. Have you seen... Oh, I literally closed it right as you went. Nice. While he looks that up keanu reeves is apparently going to be the voice of shadow the hedgehog in the upcoming sonic 3 movie nice um

Starting point is 02:21:30 the plot of the movie reportedly involves dr robotnik getting his groove back after the events of sonic 2 so yeah it could be could be interesting um okay you ready um yes oh it's an ad nice cool a backpack it's not a backpack okay is this it yeah have you seen this do you recognize this no okay so maybe we haven't then maybe dan and i were just talking about it sorry i thought this was the one that you watched on when you kind of need audio can we get that figured out uh yeah i'm sure i can live without it he's he's telling it to do something it's going to do something i get it it's definitely better with audio because he does reasoning and stuff like through audio so like he's asking him to tell him like why he's doing

Starting point is 02:22:23 different things and in what order while he's doing a different thing actively with his hands that's pretty cool where should all the dishes go and stuff like that i think is while he's putting the garbage away so he's like doing a task while talking about a different task all righty and the world's gonna be wild and then he tells them like based on based on what you see in front of you, where do you think the cup and the plate should go? And then he says something along the lines of, like, I think they should go in the drying rack.

Starting point is 02:22:52 And then he tells them to actually, like, do it. So he has it reasoned out first. And then I don't think he says, like, put them in the drying rack. I think he says, like, okay, do that or whatever. Like put them away or something. Yeah. Huh. He looks a lot more useful than my kids.

Starting point is 02:23:19 Huh. Alright. Well, good luck, humans. Yeah. YouTube is warning of another ad blocking crackdown this week they published a memo warning that third-party apps that violate youtube's terms of service specifically youtube viewing clients that block ads um are going to be experiencing a crackdown youtube was vague about how exactly it would act against these apps beyond saying that app users may encounter issues like buffering, error messages,

Starting point is 02:23:50 and videos failing to load. YouTube emphasized the importance of ads in supporting creators and their content. The Chrome store, meanwhile, still offers several ad-blocking third-party YouTube apps. So I guess the question here here is what is youtube's strategy here exactly trying to get less people to use the platform without watching ads yeah but if you if you're not a premium subscriber if you're not a member of anyone's channel it's pretty brutal and you block ads oh i thought you were going to say the amount of ads on youtube is pretty brutal oh no i was going to agree with that saying if you don't watch the ads anyways yeah because you're blocking them and you're not doing any other method of giving them money for using the platform

Starting point is 02:24:33 why would they care yeah i think it's uh it's pretty interesting uh seeing people who do block ads on the platform saying well i'm just going to boycott youtube and um and i think they don't really fully understand that they are um they are it's it's kind of like being vegan and saying you're going to boycott mcdonald's it's like so i think you already were yeah who cares their fries are cooked you're not you're not a customer um you are you are from a monetary standpoint to youtube you are not just worthless you are actually some money vampiric you are a parasitic um they don't care at all yeah and so it's been it's been interesting to see some of the discourse around this on both sides right like i personally see this as a win but not for the reason you think because i mean as a tech creator

Starting point is 02:25:33 who's found ways to monetize our content in spite of the fact that probably a disproportionate um percentage of our audience does engage in ad blocking realistically you know okay they they crack down on ad blocking they don't crack down on ad blocking it probably it's not an existential question to change very little for changes almost nothing to me um but the reason i see this as a win is because in the earlier days of third-party youtube apps uh very, um, very antagonistic. Like remember that windows mobile didn't have a YouTube app because Google wouldn't make one. And the third party ones were constantly being hampered. Uh, there was one third party one in particular, I forget what it's called, but basically, um, we weren't, there, there wasn't, you had to use a browser on windows on windows phone which

Starting point is 02:26:28 kind of sucked and while youtube is obviously taking a stance against third-party apps that engage in ad blocking here what they aren't doing and the win that i see here is they are backing down what they aren't doing is going after the third-party apps for existing they are backing down on the changes to the ui that people might be enjoying through these third-party apps and basically just going okay look truce but don't block the ads um and i think that's probably about the best offer we're going to get from them because the negotiating power of the users of these apps that block ads is zero it's it's it's less than zero and there's like there's there's some stuff you can argue about like if those users are sharing that content or talking about the platform in general

Starting point is 02:27:25 it becomes more in the like mind space of others and stuff but the value of that is like so incredibly low and youtube already has oh i don't know roughly the entire planet as its user base so i don't think they care yeah so this is gonna be uh i think this war is only going to escalate. And I think, don't quote me on this, but my understanding is that Google's tools for detecting ad blocking are much more sophisticated than what they have necessarily deployed. I think they are making a conscious decision about how aggressive or not aggressive to be towards ad blocking. And yes, ad blocking services are evolving, but I suspect that they are evolving at a pace

Starting point is 02:28:17 that they won't necessarily be able to, or I suspect the pace at which they're evolving is reactionary and Google is capable of laying the hammer down in a much more significant way. I think in a lot of these like cat and mouse type of games, you don't necessarily put all your cards on the table, right? So like, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. Yeah. So, uh, good luck. Good luck, everybody. What I hope is that that's where we settle, where we can have

Starting point is 02:28:45 nice things we can have third-party apps that don't shove shorts down your throat or that um yeah or that you know don't fill your um don't fill your space with unnecessary promotion of other videos or that allow you to get straight to the comments or you know whatever the things are that bother you about the official youtube app i hope we can have nice things and i hope that the third party apps figure out this is the best deal you're gonna get take it now or take it later i guess but you will ultimately probably end up taking it um stick boy over on float plane says if premium wasn't 14 something dollars maybe i would consider it i would never advocate for finding a group of friends and buying youtube a youtube premium family plan of course not i would never advocate for that yeah i mean i can see why some people might do it right because it would significantly lower the cost

Starting point is 02:29:52 of the youtube premium subscription for all the people while still contributing at least something to the cost of running the platform not to mention to the creators that you enjoy but i would never advocate for that and like it's not like it would be that hard either. It's actually like the systems are just there, right? I think you just send email invites. Oh, this is interesting. Chroma Chan says I got nabbed for that. They IP checked me really? Because I'm pretty sure no, I have people on my in my fat in my google family that are not at the same address have they changed the tos on that oh interesting people are saying me too all right well um that shows you no I got bumped out I was in it for a while, and then I got removed from the Sebastian YouTube family.

Starting point is 02:30:46 Yeah, sorry, brother. Hey, technically, I think Steam is up to six. Nice. I'm back in. We'll see. I mean, you can only join and rejoin. By the way, have we talked about the new Steam family sharing thing? I forget what they're calling it. Steam families. I don't know if there's been an update but we did

Starting point is 02:31:08 talk about it originally yeah oh we did okay well i've been using it and it's super cool that's all i have to say about that nice yeah i absolutely love it um there's like parental controls now the sharing works great uh something i wasn't sure about because it says that you can only while i can play a game while someone else plays a game a different game from my library and i didn't i wasn't sure if it would be possible for it to pool licenses together and allow two people to play at once right okay so if any two people on your family network have a game then any two people could play that game simultaneously yeah that's pretty sick so you can pull licenses work either that's really cool super cool that's very cool so as long as you know let's say yvonne and i own a license

Starting point is 02:32:00 of a game two of our kids could play it together as long as yvonne and i are each playing completely different games yeah it's so cool you and yvonne is like two separate entities in this case if you both owned a license to a game then two kids could also play it if you weren't playing it so cool yeah that's cool love it that's really cool and that mimics how it would work anyways if you had two copies of a game at home and they were discs you could put both of those discs in other systems like yeah it would work it would make sense what do we got next uh i don't know shot at piracy what is this plex has requested that github take down the plex reshare repository allegedly because it would contribute to plex's pir that github take down the plex reshare repository allegedly because it

Starting point is 02:32:46 would contribute to plex's piracy problem despite the facts fact that plex reshare doesn't host any ip infringing material github has honored this request and replaced the repository with a dmca takedown reference it's unclear why github made this decision probably because they don't want to deal with it um though it took around three weeks for GitHub to respond, leading to speculation that they were discussing the matter with the Plex Reshare developer and allowing them to respond. Plex Reshare is primarily intended to allow Plex users to make shared directories browsable on the web,

Starting point is 02:33:20 which allows people to reshare them without being the original owner. The project remains available on via docker hub discussion question is this likely to reduce piracy should we be concerned about companies removing non-infringing tools just because they might enable piracy this is a super weird one the fact that this does not actually host or even directly enable the sharing of any infringing material. There's multiple layers to the bizarreness of this. I'm extremely confused that A, Plex requested this,

Starting point is 02:34:10 because as far as I can tell, the only pressure on them would be political. And I am B, extremely confused that GitHub, which hosts all kinds of tools to enable all kinds of piracy. Yeah. I'm extremely confused that they pulled it down. Yeah. Should we be concerned about companies removing non-infringing tools

Starting point is 02:34:35 just because they might enable piracy? I think that's the, like this developer, it sounds like they were using Docker Hub and GitHub. And I mean, that's probably just going to be the route, right? If you're pushing something up, don't have it only in one spot. That is frustrating, though. All right. Any other topics we want to hit?

Starting point is 02:35:01 Yeah, let's do this one really quick. UK criminalizes non-consensual deepfakes the united kingdom has passed a new law criminalizing sexually explicit deepfakes without consent creating these deepfakes carries a penalty of a criminal record and a fine distribution however could result in a prison sentence the u.s senate is also apparently considering a bill that will allow victims of sexually explicit deepfakes made without their consent to sue the creators um discussion question is it better to deal with these matters using the criminal justice system why aren't lawsuits enough another discussion question is ai and the increased

Starting point is 02:35:35 accessibility of deepfakes forcing the legal system to catch up with this as a problem yes it definitely is um one thing i find interesting is that it's just sexually explicit ones i'm kind of surprised just all non-consensual deep fakes aren't a problem to be honest oh i mean uh it seems like it seems like it would almost be too broad so if i that person looks like me i'm gonna sue this person for it yeah i think it'd be really tough to enforce and it'd be tough to prove whereas I think it's harder to find a motive for an explicit deepfake um whether that okay yeah I'm not gonna get into the motives because like I know there's there's a huge issue right now of people being very angry about um like I don't really care

Starting point is 02:36:24 personally but some people care a lot of when whenever any deep fake is made of them especially people who um their their kind of job relies around it right so like we we've seen voice actors like this recently um where even if you're not doing it for commercial means they don't want you deep faking their voice ever for any reason. Yep. Um, and I'm sure there's people that are more on the visual side of things.

Starting point is 02:36:49 I'm just assuming, I don't know, models, you might not be making sexually explicit images of them, but if you deep fake them at all, their, their job is modeling, right?

Starting point is 02:37:00 You're removing their job. I don't know how okay with that. They are when you're removing their job by recreating them specifically. It's weird. It's a touchy point. We're headed into such uncharted waters. All right, do we want to head into Wancho After Dark?

Starting point is 02:37:17 Waters. Yeah. Sorry, did you pick one? No, I had to push the button. Oh, all right. Thanks, Dan. I love Windshow After Dark. It's great.

Starting point is 02:37:37 Yeah. I'll go through potentials. We ready? Yeah, I'm readys. We ready? Yeah, I'm ready. You guys ready? Hit me, Dan. Sure. Hey, guys, thank you for all the work,

Starting point is 02:37:50 and thank you for making my Saturday morning educational, but also entertaining. Heck yeah. I was wondering, what is Beyond Labs? You consider going into online education? Like, what is After Labs? Oh. Um... I feel like right now we need to get to labs yeah yeah let's focus on that for a bit let's get to labs i mean i think it's uh i think

Starting point is 02:38:17 that the opportunities for product testing and better information about electronics are are many um but that's for sort of the business people to decide right now we're just figuring out how to get that data in a in a scalable manageable cost-effective way and that's it's a tough problem it's something that very few organizations have solved. And it's something that I believe that we can solve, but it's just going to take us some more time. How is the smart home going light switches and heating? Do you recommend ZigBee or Wi Fi? I purchased Wi Fi devices based on features, but now I'm having network issues due to the number of devices. Oh, man. I mean, it's all.

Starting point is 02:39:08 Okay. So, the switches. I am hoping that Inivelli is going to have some of their upcoming switches that use millimeter wave for presence detection. I am hoping that I will have some of those in hand at some point so I can test them. hoping that I will have some of those in hand at some point so I can test them. And then if it goes well, I would really like to use those because motion is just not good enough. I'm still having problems with my blinds. My HVAC has been a lot better ever since I figured out that I had too much Wi-Fi. I turned off the antennas on some of my access points, the 2.4 gigahertz antennas.

Starting point is 02:39:47 They were too powerful. They were too close together. And even though I was parking my Ecobees on particular access points, and it's partially my fault for having all the antennas enabled, but partially Ubiquiti's fault for having them all on channel one.

Starting point is 02:40:04 I had them all on auto, and they were all on channel one. Anyway, the point is I'm no longer having connectivity issues with those and I'm pretty happy with the HVAC, but there's still a lot to be done when it comes to lights and window coverings. And honestly, a lot of it just comes down to that I don't have the time or attention span to focus on that when I've got just a lot of other stuff going on. It's like, okay, it's the afternoon on one of the two days a week that I get to do anything other than go to work and eat and sleep. Do I go to the swimming pool with my kids or do I play with my light switches? I don't know. It seems like a pretty obvious one most days of the week because i do have things that i legitimately enjoy like i'm finally working on painting my bike did i show you my test

Starting point is 02:40:49 pieces yes yeah so i've got a new color that um if i'm a bad boy i'll try tonight and if i'm a good boy i will wait until tomorrow to try but it's a it's a candy it's a candy paint. What's the over-under on that? Oh, I mean, it depends how late the show goes. 40 to 15? I don't know. Are we playing Super Checks tonight? Probably not. You don't have time tonight, I don't think.

Starting point is 02:41:15 Okay, that's fine. I think I would be murdered. I'll probably prime it tonight. I'll probably prime it tonight. That's a solid middle ground. Then I can sand in the morning, and then I can apply paint right away instead of waiting around to sand the the primer for it to get hard enough to sand so yeah it's a candy though so what that means is that your primer

Starting point is 02:41:34 coat has to be really even and your application of the color has to be super even as well because the paint is clear so if you have a build-up somewhere it not only is going to affect the surface finish it will affect the perception of the color but it's a super cool like kind of shimmery pink and that's what that's what i'm planning to do for my motorbike so that's the reason um i i did shave the beard for the super shallow, cheap, but reason of that, I was getting that facial treatment that costs the same, whether they did my whole face or whether they just did above the lips. Uh, but I'm keeping the face clean until I am finished with my painting project.

Starting point is 02:42:19 Because let me tell you, I, uh, painted for a lot of years. I've inhaled a lot of paint, you know, masks, they're not perfect. And I was like, okay, I know this automotive paint is like way worse. But all I'm doing is I have like this one thing and I'm just going to go like this and I'm right next to the exhaust fan. So I'm just going to go like that one time. and as soon as i did it and accidentally pulled in just the tiniest bit of air i was like hmm poison so uh let me go there's a reason why none of the firefighters have beards yeah let me go get my let me go get my organic uh you know filtered nonsense and and everything and even if i'm doing one pass of the sprayer i will be putting

Starting point is 02:43:05 that on every time uh so that's that's good to know yeah um jack says uh why am i on twitch why am i looking at twitch chat well so it starts with automotive paint ends with super glue a paper bag in a back alley yeah um i believe you though that that's you know, uncommon, uncommon Twitch W. Good take. Witness me. Paint this bicycle. Thank you, Dan. You're welcome. Don't forget eye protection or Tynan will get angry at you.

Starting point is 02:43:34 Yes. I don't have bespoke eye protection, but I'm wearing swim goggles that seal. So that should probably be good enough. Perfect. Yeah. Okay, let's see what's up next i've even got the full bunny suit actually but i don't put that on every time which i think is why i have um

Starting point is 02:43:51 these marks on these pants because i'm pretty sure these are new oh okay yeah it sucks because we i don't just have an unlimited supply of the ltc cargo pants. All of mine are prototypes still. We don't have our mass production yet. Bleh. Howdy LDL. Pronounced ladle? Ladle? Ladle? Howdy ladle. Linus, what's the biggest compromise you or Yvonne have had to make

Starting point is 02:44:18 with each other when implementing new tech into your house? I mean, that's a better question for Yvonne than me. She's had to make all kinds of compromises, like her lights staying on. And Linus has to make few. I don't know how she hasn't murdered you for that. Yeah, it's kind of a miracle.

Starting point is 02:44:48 She's a very wonderful woman, and i will never get divorced at least voluntarily yep moving on hello when crew is the labs hoodie the same as the dropout hoodie i recently got the dropout and hoodie and i love it it is not i didn't think so but i didn't want to say no it's our it's our standard hoodie the dropout hoodie is a sick upgraded hoodie and if you manage to get your hands on one of those uh while we had it on promo you are very smart and if you buy one now you're also very smart it's a really nice hoodie it's it's probably not fate uh i don't know it's hard to pick favorites it's like kids right like i don't have a favorite but it's a really great hoodie and i wear mine you'd probably be upset a little

Starting point is 02:45:34 less if this one you know what you i more oh well okay and the point is, yes. What's next? Hey, LLD. I love listening to you guys talk about product development. What is something that is significantly more complicated than you thought prior to LTT Store or Floatplane? I was reading a different message. What? File downloads.

Starting point is 02:46:01 I did not realize how critical it is that video loads in chunks until we tried to overcome the IT challenges around just allowing people to download the file continuously. Especially when a new video drops, we would have this challenge where the more people are hitting it,

Starting point is 02:46:24 the more longer it takes for them to download that continuous file, and the more detrimental it is to quality of service. Whereas when you can feed everyone in chunks, you can balance all your different users and you can accommodate many more users much more easily. Obviously, I was aware of chunk loading and i was aware that people obviously do it for a reason but i had never really sat down and had a thunk about it until we were up against the challenge and the reason we were was because we offered streaming yes but float plane thought it was a great idea okay to support downloads i thought it was a great idea to support downloads. I thought it was a cool idea. Just like how someone thought it was a great idea to support live streams.

Starting point is 02:47:08 The idea was that people could, whether it's for their own archive on Plex or whatever else, keep a local copy of the content as part of a perk of having a float plan subscription, DRM-free, blah, blah, etc., etc. of having a float plan subscription DRM free blah blah etc etc look the point is that yes it's much more challenging than I personally thought it would be it's not actually like hard to do it's just yeah because like if if first of all most people don't watch 100% of every single video they try to watch through like a vod streaming scenario but if they're downloading it now they're downloading the entire thing for sure every time right so okay so it's guaranteed to take more bandwidth on average for the people downloading it than the people not downloading it for the people streaming it and then you also have the issue that if a video say the wan show

Starting point is 02:48:04 say someone has a script that say someone has a script that automatically downloads every single VOD that shows up on Flowplane. That's going to include VODs of the WAN show. So now they're downloading like four hour long videos, but they don't want the download to take four hours. download to take four hours if you're streaming it you can deliver it to them over the course of the four hours which they probably won't watch the entire thing of so you're saving bandwidth anyways but no they want it fast so yeah downloads are i don't know it's a it's whatever ltt store whale here i own multiples of almost all your merch and love the quality. The one thing the rest of my family loves is the onesie. When will we get a new design?

Starting point is 02:48:51 Probably never. It hasn't been a big mover for us, and I don't think we can support the various sizes in a completely different design. Our SKU count has ballooned, and we need to pare it down. It's unfortunate because that's like, I've heard this feedback before and it's like, I don't know, Emma wears the onesie like all the time. Yeah, the challenge for us is that a lot of the time

Starting point is 02:49:17 we still, in spite of our incredible reach in the tech sphere, we still struggle with marketing. Yeah. We have really good quality products. It's hard to get out. The feedback, like, go on the bloody site and read reviews. The feedback on the products is great. Anytime I see someone talking about

Starting point is 02:49:35 how overpriced our products are, I'm like, well, you're a f***ing idiot because you clearly either don't understand or appreciate quality, or you do and you've just decided to declare it being something and you've never even tried it. They're good products. And occasionally, even a good product can have a lemon like well, you know, a seam will rip once in a while. But that's what the trust me bro guarantee is for. So we've got a good product. We just I don't know, man, we,

Starting point is 02:50:03 we struggle to move volume of it. I think part of it is just the focus of our product development. There's been a lot of Linus led development when it comes to the, um, the direction for our physical goods. It's just like, you know, stuff that I like stuff that I think is good stuff I think is, is comfortable. Um, and we, yeah, I mean, Crystal says, I got the logo notebook today. It's so nice. Yeah, it's great. We sell like two a day or one a day or something.

Starting point is 02:50:32 Like it's not meaningful. So something like that may very well get discontinued unless we can kind of figure out how to market things better. And until we figure out how to direct our product development a little bit better, it's going to be hard for us to craft messaging around it. And so it's,

Starting point is 02:50:52 it's kind of a chicken and egg thing. So we're going to have to have some stuff fail in order for us to succeed better at our core competencies. Yeah. This is the onesie. Yeah. 89% of the reviews are five stars. There's no two star, no one star, but there's only 38 reviews. Yeah, this is the onesie. Yeah. 89% of the reviews are five stars. There's no two star, no one star, but there's only 38 reviews.

Starting point is 02:51:08 Yeah, dude, we don't f*** around, but like, guys, we could use some word of mouth, you know? Yeah. Because it's great. Yeah. I don't personally like onesies, but like, I know a bunch of people that do. Emma loves them. She wears it all the time. It's like one of her favorite garments.

Starting point is 02:51:25 Maybe if it wasn't called merch. Yeah, I don't know. It could be. Yeah, it could be a perception thing. I think a lot of people assume that our merch is merch. It's just some piece of crap with a logo silk trained on it or whatever. But, like, even our printer. You know, for all the...

Starting point is 02:51:44 I mean, you guys have heard me talk about our printer and our frustration with, you know, the scale that he operates at and all that kind of stuff. But are we using someone else? Yeah. No. Why? Because he, because he fucking cares, right?

Starting point is 02:52:00 Like he, he, he cares about his craft. He does a great job. And that's something that we respect more than, know an additional printing capacity right so i don't know man we can't uh can't win at everything there it is hey dll have you had the chance to watch the fallout show yet if so what do you think i was rather certain he hasn't i haven't i don't really watch shows i was wondering if you have no all i know that it's canon the whole thing is canon oh that's unfortunate but i kind of hate that but it's a bit of a meme because fallout new vegas had three endings and todd howard said that they were all canon

Starting point is 02:52:42 okay i thought new ve Vegas specifically wasn't canon. It's basically this thing. I don't know. I haven't seen it. I'm not sure what the public perception is. No, Fallout New Vegas is not canon. Wait, never mind. I read this wrong.

Starting point is 02:52:58 No, the Fallout show didn't make New Vegas non-canon. And then when Todd Howard was asked, my understanding is that he said, yeah, it's canon. Howard told IGN there might be a little bit of confusion in some places, but everything that happened in the previous games, including New Vegas,

Starting point is 02:53:18 happened. So which ending happened? Huh, Todd? All of them. It's a multiverse. They're going multiverse. No, Todd? All of them. Huh? All of them. It's a multiverse. They're going multiverse. No, no. That makes sense. Follow multiverse, yeah.

Starting point is 02:53:28 Let's go. When the atomic bomb blew up, it created parallel realities. Wow, people really want you to watch this show, Luke. It's also all simulation. They want you to watch it. Good luck with that. I don't really watch shows. What is it even on?

Starting point is 02:53:40 I don't know. No, I don't have it. Plex. Wink. Luke, you're a front front end refactor to react is impressive what's the motivation and how long did it take guys you're not gonna convince him telling him it's on prime that's gonna make it worse that is actually the least convincing platform yep don't have it tell you that much um yeah he's not gonna give amazon a dollar nope um but i might check out someone's isos um the the react

Starting point is 02:54:15 uh the react conversion thing um use linus's account do have one we we needed to do something um we needed to either majorly clean up what we had on angular uh or refactor to react it was honestly going to be probably a fairly similar amount of work to do one or the other and at the point in time where we made the decision i think react made complete sense i think if we were making the decision now it might have been less painful to stick with angular angular had a massive update recently which looked really good um but we're very happy with react the team jayden especially i think is like super super stoked about the migration that's happening or at least where it is now it was a little painful along the way but he's happy with where it is now people are happy with the fact that the way, but he's happy with where it is now. People are happy with the fact

Starting point is 02:55:05 that we're going to be on React. React is a heavy component of the Labs website as well. So something that's all warm and fuzzy for me is that my teams are working on similar platforms, which is very cool. I like that a lot. So I think the end result is better than if we stayed on Angular,

Starting point is 02:55:24 even knowing that Angular did get the update, um, because I like the cohesion of, of, you know, across the teams working on similar things. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm very happy about the React refactor. Codebase is in a much better space now. Um, a lot easier to work with. Uh, yeah, it's just, just better overall. Jane's done a great job um and i i also like the

Starting point is 02:55:48 sidebar thing that were the the platforms that we have flow plane um and the labs website they're like independent platforms that we have i can't i can't really count the store because shopify runs the vast majority of it um but But the independent platforms that we have are becoming more and more similar over time in regards to how they're built, how their bones are set up, so that if you were a developer that worked here, you could potentially swim between the teams

Starting point is 02:56:14 and it would be less painful, which is cool. But yeah. Got another one for us, Dan? I do. Hi, WAN.dll. I bought the Chevy Volt based on Linus's review and it's the best car out there love it any major uh repairs or tweaks that you had to do for the car and what should i do to keep it in good shape nope uh some some jackass uh sideswiped me in the suicide lane and knocked my mirror off that's about the only issue i ever had

Starting point is 02:56:43 with it volt oh yeah it was ages ago i thought you're talking about your current car house like how many billions of dollars is that gonna be oh man i curbed it oh no yeah my winter wheels it's not that bad but i'm really upset that's unfortunate yeah it's always the first ones yeah well no yvonne curbed it once already on the summers but uh that one was bad enough that i had it fixed uh jake knows a guy jake knows a guy of course yeah my guy's now jake yeah exactly um jake knows a guy uh so i had that one i had that one touched up uh don't don't forget i i spilled muriatic acid in the back of it though so like that the first scratch was a wasn't i forgot you did that doozy she was a doozy that is impressive fortunately the floor mat covers it like you actually cannot tell if the floor mat's in so whatever yeah um yeah driven on sundays uh battery acid all over the backs yeah exactly yeah linus i remember from a previous

Starting point is 02:57:48 show you said you used to be an avid hockey fan ever ever considered ahl games my local team recently played abbotsford and it was a great time i have heard it's a blast. I have never gone. I've also heard that there used to be a roller hockey team in Vancouver. I heard those games were a blast as well. I bought into the hype. Of the roller hockey? No, of NHL. Oh, NHL. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:58:17 I was like, I don't know, NHL. And the convenience, it's on TV. I very rarely would go to an in-person game but i i watched on tv i would just i put on team 1040 back in the day am radio and listen to the to the talk show talk show hosts and stuff like i was i was into it but i didn't like physically attend anything it's the convenience of following professional sports right yeah i i went to a game with my dad at the langley event center um and it was really fun to be honest it was it was interesting because like i was talking to my dad uh i think we saw who was it i think it was i know we've gone to go see the bandits there which is the basketball team

Starting point is 02:59:03 but we it was the vancouver giants versus someone which is the basketball team, but it was the Vancouver Giants versus someone. I don't remember who. And it was really fun. And you get that, like, I've watched some NHL games where you can tell they're, like, you know, holding a lot in reserve. This isn't the playoffs. Let's not get injured, whatever. These guys were going hard the whole time. It wasn't a playoff game at all.

Starting point is 02:59:24 And they were just, like game at all and they were just like every play they were just sending it every play you are potentially getting scouted yeah so it was it was very high energy the whole time regardless of what the score was it was very fun to watch um i had a good time i don't even remember who won it was just like entertaining the whole time through so yeah and the tickets were cheap and the arena's closer it can be more interesting when um everyone's good but not so good that they don't make mistakes yeah like what's more exciting uh a clean tight defense or a big giveaway and at center ice and like it there there's so much better than me that i would look like a clown so like which we know for sure because we've tried it yeah i can't skate um

Starting point is 03:00:13 nerd sports it's fun to watch um but so like the skill gap is there that you're still watching people that are just like incredibly good at this thing so like that's that's established but then they're not necessarily quite nhl level maybe some of the players are and they'll get scouted up or whatever but it's it was uh it was very fun to watch why still no atx 12 vo i really want to see it take off and while the btf format seemed like the perfect opportunity to do it, they're all still using the legacy specification. Intercompatibility, man. It's going to take off in pre-builds and servers. It's happening already there.

Starting point is 03:00:57 In fact, I'd be surprised if they don't go even higher than 12 volt in servers. They're going to want that efficiency. And then over time eventually maybe we'll get it on the desktop but it doesn't look like it has any momentum right now okay line luki and dano what's your thoughts on automatically changing twitter.com to x.com how did shenanigans like netflwitter.com get past quality assurance. Well, I don't think they have much in the way of QA right now. Like, it's pretty obvious that it's...

Starting point is 03:01:29 Did they fire them all? Yeah, it just seems to be a zoo over there right now. You know about this, right? No. Oh, yeah. So any reference to twitter.com in a tweet, they were just automatically changing to x.com in a tweet they were just automatically changing to x.com so people could have s e t w i t t e r.com and it would go to that website but it would change the appearance to sex.com.

Starting point is 03:02:09 So any URL that ended with an X, so that's why they were saying netflit twitter.com that would show as netflix.com in the tweet. But if you clicked it, it would go to netflit twitter.com. So like phishing was a huge concern. I think that mostly people who were smart raised this as an issue. And it mostly, probably these domains didn't fall into the hands of too many phishers. But probably some people got screwed over by it.

Starting point is 03:02:40 They just do stuff over there these days. Act fast. Yeah. Break stuff. Break a lot of stuff. days. Act fast. Yeah. Break stuff. Break a lot of stuff. Good job, guys. Yeah. What is the worst piece of tech that was adopted en masse?

Starting point is 03:02:50 Early smartwatches without even a day of battery life seemed like a terrible mass landfill product. I mean... That's a pretty good example. Adopted en masse. Oh, PDAs. um adopted on mass oh pdas i'd say pdas gained enough mainstream acceptance um and then the life cycles for those were so short like palm pilots and stuff people use them for a couple wait a couple of years essentially threw them away because they were getting so much better so fast and the early ones were terrible a couple years is not bad for a tech device getting a couple years i guess but i mean it's a pretty substantial

Starting point is 03:03:29 amount of e-waste i mean yeah this was like everything that's fair tech that's my answer it's all eventually e-waste uh just potentials left. Feel free to curate or we can just go through them. Humans are dust to dust. E-waste is sand to garbage. Oh, that just makes me sad. Humans return to the earth. Tech just goes to the pile. It's more depressing.

Starting point is 03:04:01 From earth to pile. Earth to pile. Sand to garbage. we gather here today to look at the apple lisa oh whatever poor lisa tsa took my black shaft screwdriver so i guess i have to buy a stubby linus you mentioned not doing another onesie. For other low-volume products, would you consider doing similar to Massdrop? I don't know. We could, but I realistically don't think. I think you guys would be surprised at how many onesies you have to order in order to do a run of them. It's like hundreds and hundreds.

Starting point is 03:04:42 I just don't think we'd see the demand. demand i mean we do it with printed t-shirts but we also have to have reasonable turnaround times for these things like people get antsy when we say hey yeah this is a print to order and it's not going to ship for a few weeks there's people messaging us after a week and a half going like where the f**k my order right, uh, well, it's exactly where we told you it was going to be. It's not created yet. Um, and if, and with the way that delays can occur with the way that quality issues can crop up at the last minute, I just, I don't need that headache in my life. I don't need the money that badly, I guess is what I'm trying to say is like, yeah, I could say, okay, yeah, we'll do a onesie in a new pattern and it'll be great but then if we get it in and the quality sucks like

Starting point is 03:05:28 now what i i don't i don't feel like i i don't want the headache is basically what it comes down to sup duke dinos lan and lan linus do you know uh do you ride your bike with your LTD backpack on? If so, how well does it do after a slide? We know. There's a couple people who have posted backpacks post accident on the subreddit. Personally, I haven't wiped out with it on. I wouldn't

Starting point is 03:05:58 say that it's a good idea. It's not Kevlar reinforced. It's not armored or anything. So you should definitely have proper gear aside from your bag but um i do ride a motorcycle and i it you know it is something that i considered whether it would be comfortable with riding gear on and stuff and i like it some other people like it but it's not uh it's not a promoted use case for the product. Hey, LDL, you can fight over who is the first L.

Starting point is 03:06:33 Thanks for all the entertainment over the years. What brand of optical DP cable are you running for your racked PCs for the game room? It's me, Infinite Cables. Yeah, shout out Infinite Cables. I don't think Luke even registered that. No, I'm reading stuff. Luke is gone. So I got dibs.

Starting point is 03:06:52 Oh, on the first L? Yeah. You already took the name of all the companies. I'm the K-L. I bought the company for a dollar. That means my name's on it. I'm the biggest L. I do often regret going with

Starting point is 03:07:10 that we tried i know you and ed really did try yeah yvonne tried to talk me out of it too yvonne tech tips you know you know what the example i cited was for why i just thought it didn't matter you could just call the company whatever whatever. It could just be my name. It's who cares? Like people will just not think about it that way. Do you know what it was? No. Rogers sugar. I was like, nobody thinks about that. Probably someone named Roger or something. Rogers invented the sugar company. It's just Rogers sugar who gives a fuck. And I was like, just whatever Linus media group. It's not even the public facing thing. The channel's already Linus Tech Tips anyway. What difference does it make?

Starting point is 03:07:47 Turns out a lot. Yeah. Anyway, nice. Hey, tall, short, and in-between. If you could collaborate with any creator, brand, or celebrity on an LTT store, who would it be and what would you make? I mean, I wouldn't presume to tell any creator what they should or shouldn't make. I would want to know their ideas.

Starting point is 03:08:08 I mean, who would have thought Ludwig would be passionate enough to make a bidet? I wouldn't have seen that one coming in 100 years. The reviews, by the way, on the store are great. I mean, he was really into bidets before he sold bidets. I guess we have these listed under other. That makes sense. But yeah, check this out. It's a basic one four stars swipe plus how about a casual 88 five star reviews here let's go awesome yeah but these are cool or warm you scrub down your whole body with soap and water and all this other kind of stuff do not

Starting point is 03:08:48 use a bidet for that and then you and then you have your then you have your poopy butthole and you're like nope paper's good i will put this i will put this paper that is designed to disintegrate yeah let's just go with that and then i'm just gonna kind of run around then i'll walk around all day like that i don't know today's are good hi did a line nuke what do you think about buying online movies you can't own and then pirating it or screen recording is it worth it to buy the movie sorry what's the question buying online movies you can't own and then pirating it or screen recording is it oh so like buying buying the movie on like uh like um i don't know where can you even buy movies these days who cares yeah youtube so buying the movie on youtube and then just being like well f**k it they got my money i don't care about any of this if my collection goes away i will now guilt free pirate an iso for

Starting point is 03:09:46 this and put it on my plex server i say that's up to you yeah personally that would be well within my bounds of what i would consider to be acceptable because at the end of the day it's not by that company to be clear i believe that that still yeah makes it no less illegal but i don't care but i agree i the rights holder got their money. Yeah. That's what matters. What matters to me. And, oh, shoot.

Starting point is 03:10:15 Oh, man, I was going somewhere with this. Well, it doesn't matter. It's like the ad block thing. Yeah, the point is, I would do that completely completely oh yeah i know where i was going with this in fact if anything i would say that if your goal is to ensure that the rights holder gets paid that's actually a lot better than going and buying a used blu-ray because that blu-ray was already paid for and watched or whatever like for me i i that's obviously well within my bounds as far as i'm concerned as long as i have bought a license of

Starting point is 03:10:52 that movie at some point i'm like i'm good um but yeah if it's like a really great movie and you want to support it in some way but you're just like no man i'm not going to log into some stupid website or put the plastic disc what year is it right like yeah just buy it and then pirate it i don't care i'm not gonna that's not that i am the judge of any of this and i'm not i i'm not a legal this is not legal advice but for me personally i consider that to be okay for me personally and that's a personal decision everyone has to make for themselves personally uh geeky vapor says so if i saw a movie at a theater it's okay well that's up to you that's my whole point it's all is it's always up to you you're acting outside of the law effectively yeah you need to draw your own moral lines that's all i've ever

Starting point is 03:11:40 said guys all i ever said whatever guys. All I ever said. Whatever happened to upside-down PC cases that opened on the right side panel with the motherboard upside-down? Everyone needs their PC sitting on that side of the desk. I don't know. I personally run a reverse case. There you go. Dan has them all.

Starting point is 03:12:00 I have the one that supports it now. Yeah. What is your favorite part of product development? I think I like brainstorming the most. I've always been like an idea. It's energetic. Yeah, it's exciting. Before you get into the real world,

Starting point is 03:12:16 anything is possible. You know? Like, oh man, what if we made a laser pointer out of failed screwdriver shafts? Did you just do that again? Did you do that thing again? I think we've talked about that before. We're making a fail pointer. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:12:37 Yeah. It's going to be made out of failed screwdriver shafts. It's hilarious thomas had some serious reservations about the ergonomics because the uh the the cell that i wanted on the back and i wanted it to be user replaceable and all this stuff he's like he's like dude this thing's gonna look like a like a like an ant queen like it's got this giant ass on it um and i'm like no man it just kind of sits like right here in the hand and then the battery is going to last for like hours and hours and hours it's going to charge with usbc it's going to be like really good it'll probably be fine it might look weird but once you grip it it'll be

Starting point is 03:13:12 fine and and no it's not going to be like a strong blinding laser it's just going to run for a really long time it's meant to be never play with your pets with a laser. It is dangerous for their eyes. But if you were to do it, this would be a reasonably low power laser pointer that would run for like hours and hours and hours. Yeah. That's all I got. That's it. That's all I got too.

Starting point is 03:13:40 That's the end of the show. Hey, guys, thank you very much for tuning in. We'll see you again next week same bad time same bad channel bye Outro Music

The WAN Show - Why Do Youtubers Keep Destroying Companies - WAN Show April 19, 2024

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