Theology in the Raw - A Raw Conversation with Josh Garrels

Episode Date: May 23, 2024

Josh Garrels is one of my favorite musicians of all time and my absolute top Christian artist. His songs are incredibly powerful and meaningful, and his sound is hard to compare. I'll admit. I sort of fan-boyed in this interview, so I apologize for my awkwardness. I talked about Josh's heart behind his music, his journey as a Christian, and we even worked through several of my favorite songs of his, including "All Creatures," "The Resistance," "Babylon and Zion," "At the Table," and his recently released "The Watchman." Learn more about Josh from his website: https://www.joshgarrels.com Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

All right, friends, welcome back to another, I would say kind of special, the Algenra episode. Every now and then I am able or blessed to interview somebody who has meant a lot to me as a person. I don't like the term fan, but yeah, I'm, I'm a fan of Josh Gales. He's one of my favorite musicians period and certainly my favorite Christian musician and his music is just incredible on so many levels, like creativity level, just a sound level, but probably most of all the content of his songs are just so incredibly powerful. So I really enjoyed this conversation. Got a chance to ask him about the backstory of

some of his songs, which you'll be able to listen to later on this episode. And, uh, just, yeah, I got to know somebody who's been kind of a, a bit of a hero in my life. I don't know if that's too, anyway, that was a little starstruck with this. So I feel like I was kind of awkward, especially at the beginning and just even, even looking back at a fumbling around and my questions and stuff. So I tried to play cool, try to be like, especially at the beginning. And just even, even looking back at a fumbling around and my questions and stuff. So I tried to play cool, try to be like, Oh yeah, totally. You're just, you're just a normal dude, you know? But in my mind, I'm like, this is, I'm talking to Josh girls.

Anyway, yeah, I love this conversation. It's still kind of a blur because I was just kind of on a high throughout it. So aside from my awkwardness, I think this is an interesting conversation. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Josh Carroll's. Josh, thanks so much for being a guest on theology in Iraq. Hey, thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Me and my family. We've been huge Josh girls fans for a long, long time. I actually went to, I was speaking at a music festival years ago that you were singing at. You probably don't remember audio feed out in the Midwest and two of my kids, when

they were little, I think my son was maybe he might have been five. My daughter was maybe nine. And as a speaker, I get kiddo backstage access or whatever, but they were, they were sitting on the stage right next to you when you were performing. I don't even think you saw them or whatever, but it was even at that age, they were huge Josh girls fans. Anyway, that's like a memory that they have that we just literally talked about it again last night. So that's awesome. Yeah. Lots of fun. Let's for people that maybe don't know who you are or maybe they, they know, Oh yeah, he's a musician, but maybe they don't know much about

your story. Just give us a little basic introduction. Who are you? How'd you get into music? And yeah, we'll just go from there. Yeah. My name is Josh Garels. I've been making music most of my life. My dad was a music teacher. So music was just always around the house. Yeah. Music was a common language in my household growing up. Because of that, yeah, I never totally like aspired to be a career musician. You know, I've been doing this now for men like upwards of 20 years. Really, I think when things began to take off, so to speak, was when I came into the faith as like a 20 year old, you know, up until then music had always been a part of

my life sort of supplemental to whatever I was into. So all grown up I like was a skateboard kid. So music's definitely part of the scene of skateboarding, you know. It's part of the whole package and so definitely music outside of the faith was really like an identity piece, you know. Sort of part of sculpting your whole persona, your whole identity is music and music culture mixed with, you know, at the time, skateboarding and drug use and counterculture. And that was like my scene, you know, but as those who live life apart from Christ, there was like so much futility in it, you know what I mean? You could be like winning at the scene,

which at times I was, you know, really winning at it, but then so like so frustrating. And music itself sort of like this weird, vacuous, frustrating thing because it was so intertwined with identity growing up, you know. So coming into faith, I've often said that for me coming into faith, you know, I didn't come from a religious background. As far as church goes, I wasn't like a practicing Jew or Hindu or Muslim, where they have these sort of strict, very specific, sacred ritualistic practices to honor their deity. You know what I mean? Yet, at the same time, I think the

countercultures I came from, music in particular, there's like my coming to salvation was sort of dying to that as religion and religion being like outward appearances, you know, doing external things to make people think you're greater than you really are and adhering to these things and judging others on how well they're doing. In many ways, counterculture and music in particular was religious to me. So coming to the faith, interestingly, was a dismantling of that false man, this sort of perfect countercultural entity that I was trying to create to win at the culture that I was interested in, you know. It was actually dying to that man. So in my own way, dying to that law, you know, which is really interesting to think

about, but it really was a law to me and I would judge others in the scene based on how well or not well if they're opposing, you know, you kind of have this whole strict way of judging those around you. And so coming into faith, true faith in the Lord, it was so interesting because all of a sudden like that mode of dealing with art and creativity was so distasteful to me because there's so much freedom in the Lord. You know what I mean? All of a sudden people that I never would have hung out with in my pretension because my best friends, you know what I mean?

At the time I'm like 20, 21 years old and hanging out with these like 30, 40 year old men going to like men's retreats and singing old like Maranatha songs, but like just touched by it. You know what I mean? The freedom of the lack of pretension and unconditional love and the purity of the Lord and his Holy Spirit, to be honest, changed the way I approached music. So even then I wasn't totally planning on music as vocation.

I was actually studying visual art and then dropped out of college to do this internship. It was kind of non-traditional seminary. And I would just stay up at night playing music in my room because it was almost therapeutic. This change had happened inside of me. And then like just making songs on my bed was therapeutic to me understanding. I didn't realize at the time, but music for the last 20 years has been my tool

to make sense of spirituality. These actual things that are happening with me and this like living God who's come to take his residence in me, you know? Like making sense of the reality of following the Lord, you know? So in some ways, it was accidental that this ended up becoming, yeah, like vocation, calling in a sense, the way I provide for a family. Yeah, it sprung forth from sort of a purification in the faith of the actual thing. But with that, then it just became this very privatized way of dealing with the faith. And then at some point realizing, oh, this actually connects with some people out there. The way that I'm singing about me grappling with the faith, making sense of it, celebrating

it, connects with people. And then, yeah, I had to pay attention to that, you know, and decide, okay, like this is sort of an effective tool I've been given. I would do it anyway because that's how it's like my own sense of way of journaling. But then making the choice, okay, I'm going to like go public with this, I guess, you know? And then that sort of made a way for me to like vocationally make music for the past like 20 years, you know?

So there's sort of a long answer, but that's sort of the gist of how I got to where I'm at with music in particular, you know, my life's a little more dimensional than just music, but that's sort of the story of music and my life, you know? Yeah. I've been dying to ask you, I mean, you're, you're, this is like, give me a two-sided question. Your genre, your sound is, I would say is very unique, especially in the Christian space. You're the, and the content of your songs are, I would say extremely thoughtful, sophisticated, holistic, intellectually in depth. Let me start with that latter point. Like what do you see your music that way? I mean, your songs, the lyrics are just like extremely thoughtful and very theologically

even sophisticated. Do you consider yourself like an intellect, an avid reader? Who are some of your, maybe your intellectual influences that feed into that? Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't say that I'm an avid reader, but I'm an avid learner of things that I'm interested in. Strangely enough, I think over the past three or four years, I'll reach the end of the year and almost be embarrassed like, dude, I didn't read that many books. But then I realized I've listened to a whole bunch of audiobooks. I think I'm a very auditory learner.

And it's been a revelation that like, oh, like I really, I can ingest a lot more by listening than reading. And I do read, but I wouldn't say that I'm like, I'm not one of those, you know, we have friends who just have a stack of books on their nightstand and they're just like plowing their way through those, you know, and then there are all other lists of ones they're getting ready to read. I would say like, yeah, I've got a book that I'm in at any given point. When that one's done, I'm like open to what's the next book.

And then, you know, So who are some of your influences? Thought influences, whether it's a book you've read, listened to, or just some people that you find inspiration from. Yeah, sorry, I digressed there. You know, early on I came into faith in sort of Calvary Chapel vineyard-esque church and became a preaching pastor for a bit. And I would say at that point, like some of Eugene Peterson's books at the time for pastors,

Spurgeon, some of the old classics. I tend to gravitate to older guys. I'd say like A.W. Tozer, A.B. Simpson. Recently, I mean, for me and my wife, sort of pursuit and understanding like the power of the Holy Spirit is sort of a big deal, you know? So looking at guys like Derek Prance and this guy F.F. Bosworth who wrote on like healing and some of these subjects that tend to not be touched as much with sort of like certain segments of the church and those segments that tend to be the ones we think of as like

strong theologically or in the gospel, but yet realizing these are part of like the atonement. These are part of what is being offered as the riches in Christ. And he said, it's better for you that I go, because I'm going to send the Holy Spirit. And so we need to know like, what does the Holy Spirit offer for us and what is Christ offering? So anyway, theologically, those would be some. I don't tend to read tomes of like Kierkegaard and all that. I have and Barth and all those, you know, like I find them interesting. But yet, as I ended my last, your last question, I ended by saying, you know, my life's a bit more dimensional than just music. I would say in general for me and my wife, Michelle, the pursuit of God following him,

wanting to learn more about him and put it into practice and see the things that are promised and fleshed in our life and reading biographies of those who've lived heroic lives of the faith. So we read a lot of like missionary biographies in our house, a lot of spiritual biographies. We work through a lot of those in our house with our kids, because those enlighten us and excite us to what's possible in the faith. I mean, these are the testimonies of those who follow the Lord, put His promises

to the test and have seen them proven. And so I would say most of every day, I'm not kidding, is us like dialoguing as a family, me and my wife, and praying and thinking through like how we're going about this, what are the truths and the Lord. So we're turning those things over all the time. So naturally they're like going to work their way into the music. And when you're turning something over and over, and even having some breakthrough of those things being lived out in your own life, then they become personalized. And then your language for them can become a little more personalized. So I'd say in the music, I always hope to say a thing, hopefully not just with a, what's the word I'm looking for, like a clever turn of phrase, you know what I mean? There can be a type of songwriting

where man you can make a whole career by just locking in on how to have a clever turn of phrase, you know, and I'm talking just huge country hits to pop hits to like Christian worship songs. If you can have that clever turn of phrase that sort of makes a thing fresh or funny or witty, you can build a career on that. You know what I mean? But that, I think as far as like songs interacting or addressing things of like the living God, yeah, I would hope to like couch it in like an honest language, maybe a language that is personalized to me, that makes it more real to others, but is maybe trying to steer

clear of just a clever turn of phrase regarding things of the faith, like just for the sake of being fresh, like, ah, let's figure out a new way to say this. We're not Christians, we're followers of the way of Jesus. And just these like awkward ways of trying to repackage. You know what I mean, man? It can be really kind of silly. But if there can be a way where someone's talking about these things in a fresh language, because they've owned it, that's precious. And I think that actually is really effective in culture. So I think with music, because I'm turning these things over,

like things of the Lord, the faith mean a lot to me. You know, it's my life's pursuit. Like those find their way into songs, sometimes in ways that work, maybe sometimes in ways that don't work so well. But yeah. Okay, that's super helpful. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I like about your music

is that it's not just a bunch of Tweetable one-liners or creative, maybe yes, you know, phrases that might be kind of, kind of creative, but the depth isn't there. I mean, your songs are, they tell stories, they dive into a wide range of real aspects of real life. I mean, especially some of your earlier stuff that, I mean, we'll, we'll talk about some specific songs in a little bit, but, um, they had almost like a political, um, I want to say political protest a little bit. I don't know if that's the best phrase. Um, so yeah, where did, I mean, I'm thinking like Zion and Babylon, where we'll talk about that one a little bit. Um, the

resistance, even the revelator, you know, obviously drawn on the book of revelation, but book of revelation is very political. Is there a, obviously drawn on the book of revelation, but book of revelation is very political. Is there a, is there that side? Like your, your, your songs have a, not a raging against the machine, you know, in your face, social kind of, you know, but there's, there's an element of that there. Can you talk about that? Am I, or am I, I just want to make sure I'm representing them. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say that still is in me. When I was younger though, that earlier work,

there is a reality as I get older, you realize even knowing those in their 20s, now late teens, that is a very idealistic, zealous period of life. And I think I still carry that zealousness yet. I mean, at that time with like Zion and Babylon, for instance, me and my wife were this close to like selling everything we owned and jumping on a veggie oil bus with a bunch of Christian anarchists. You know what I mean?

Shane Claiborne and Francis Chan. That's where we were like at the time. And there's nothing wrong with someone still choosing to do that with their life right now. That sort of radicalism. But yeah, I think at that time there was more a sense of maybe addressing structures that felt exploitative and at times evil. You know, especially like Love and War and the Sea in Between, looking at, I mean, when

I wrote like the Resistance, so that's like, I was watching all these World War II documentaries at the time and seeing how does a brutal evil regime come into fruition when it's like supposedly this like Christian nation of Germany. How can the populace say yes to this? And I was asking those questions. What does it mean to resist these things if they're right in our face? What does it mean to resist something

that dominant or popular culture is celebrating? And so I would still ask those questions, that there's a time for us to stand up and say, no, like I don't, this is opposed to the things of Christ, you know? Yeah. But with love and more in the same between in particular, there's always, always for me, there's, there's been this sort of natural dovetailing or parallel, I could say, of what we see in the world. So take something like a Nazi regime

or some of the stuff we see coming into fruition in our own nation right now. When assessing how those things work and the moving parts and components, there's always this parallel to things in the spiritual domain for me. I tend to always kind of like have one foot that's trying to make sense of that.

It's almost like the theology and the practice of spirituality. And then I'm looking at the world around me and then saying, these things are similar. These things follow similar patterns and paradigms. So, the way of deception and how a mafia works or how a regime works, a gang works, these are similar ways to how the spiritual realm, the enemy, Satan, the demonic, these are the same ways they work, to entice you to come

in and then once you're in, the door closes behind you and they say, the only way you're leaving is if you die, you know what I mean? And we're ultimately out to destroy you, you know? That it's like the same in both those arenas, the spiritual and like an evil structure. So I think for me, it's always interesting to see the parallels between men and systems that are really following selfishness and really the God of this world and how similar it becomes a copy of how the demonic works. Just as in an ideal world, the church and the believer

should be a picture of what heaven looks like, a picture of what flourishing and prospering and healing in the faith looks and smells and feels like. We'll call it the kingdom. It should look like the kingdom anyway. So I think songs like that are like, they've always been me looking at the world around me and comparing it to what I see shown to us in the scripture as the realities of the spiritual domain, of which it says we're locked in combat, whether you like it or not. Yeah, that's good. I mean, and those themes, I mean, outside of like Christian hip hop, I don't see them very much in Christian, broadly speaking, Christian music. And that's why I asked. And

I actually, that, that kind of feeds into my, the other flip side of the uniqueness I see in your music, the, just the sound, the genre you do have, I mean, some hip hop influences. I w do you have, like if someone is, if like when you're listed, are you listed under any kind of specific genre like indie something or I mean, cause you span so many different genres. I don't, I don't know how to categorize every time I upload a song for the internet, you have to like choose what's your dominant genre. What's your sub genre? What's genre number two? What's sub genre? Like you have

to fill out this whole thing. And so, I mean, I'm at, I've for years, I've just been like, I'm like singer songwriter, you know, like, that's what makes the most sense to me. It wouldn't make sense for me to just go under like hip hop, because that's like one small percentage of what I do. But I mean, I did grow up, like I said, skateboarding and just kind of listening to nothing but East Coast hip hop through high school into college. So especially that earlier work, it was still very much just hip-hop, the delivery, the like vibe was, it was in me, you know.

Like Beastie Boys, like that, or give me, what's an example? Yeah, I mean, Beastie Boys, I liked Beastie Boys. I mean, like Check Your Head and Ill Communication were great albums, you know. And that was in the period where I was listening to a lot of hip hop. But the hip hop of the time, that would have been almost a little more mainstream, even though I liked it. But yeah, back then, I mean, like Wu Tang, Tribe Cold Quest, De La Soul, sort of East Coast, a lot of the hip hop that was based in sampling and a lot of like jazz sampling, East Coast predominantly, I never really got in. At that period, I wasn't really into West Coast, which the hip hop that was based in sampling and a lot of like jazz sampling, East Coast predominantly. I never really got in. At that period, I wasn't really into West Coast, which for me felt

more like Tupac and this other stuff. Although I've come to find out there's great hip hop out of the West Coast in that era. I think I was just more unfamiliar with it. For me, it was really like East Coast, sort of skateboarding, vi-y, like jazz-based hip hop, you know, diggable planets, stuff like that. So did you make it this, I mean, I don't know how, I'm not musical at all. I love music. My family loves music. I'm not personally musical at all. So I don't really understand the, the underneath, you know, what, what goes on behind the scenes. Like, do you, what like, did you make a concerted effort? say I'm not gonna be locked into one genre box,

or is it just, you didn't think about it, you just started producing stuff you like? And that doesn't seem typical, right, for somebody to really write music that just spans kind of several genres. Yeah, yeah. It was, I think, in short, it was just making the music that I felt like I wanted

to make. But even hearkening back to your first question again, talking about coming into the faith and being broken free of very, very, very strict adherence to musical genre. I mean, for a whole period, I just listened to punk rock and that was it. Like all other music sucks. Just like skate punk, skate punk. And then I started doing drugs and listening to hip hop and then it was like hip hop. That's all there is. That's all I listen to. And for years, that's all I listen to.

So talk about being so strict to whatever genre I was into. That was it. That's the world to me. Everything that's important to me is in this musical genre. So then again, coming to Faith and sort of being broken free from that and the adherence to the specific genre or art form, it really was a delight to just be like, oh man, we can play with it all. Because I've always really enjoyed folk music and classic rock and hip hop and world music and punk rock and old

electronic music like Apex Twin and my sisters, I have two older sisters who listen to music really, really, really, really broadly when I was growing up and they would give me mixtapes for my birthday and Christmas every year. And they have all this crazy indie rock and like eccentric, like underground deep crate digging songs. And so I grew up listening to those too. And so to be in the faith and realize like there's no boundaries here, you know. And I don't, what I'm about to say, I'm old enough that I don't say this in a snarky, snobby way anymore.

But when I came into the faith, just because of the genres and the taste that I'd come from, I didn't immediately connect with music in the Christian sphere. Do you know what I mean? And it may have even been snobby back then. Do you know what I mean? A little bit. It's not so much now at all. You know what I mean? Yeah. A little bit. It's not so much now at all.

You know what I mean? But I will say, we're drawn to things. You listen to something, you see something, you're like, I like it. Or you see it and you're like, I don't really like it. You know? It's like a human thing. So there wasn't a ton that was at that point inspiring. There were some things, you know,

that was right when like Waterdeep put out that like, folky album and I remember really loving that. And I would go to Cornerstone back in the day and that was like a real sign of life for me, just cause like underground music and obscure stuff was so, even as a believer was interesting to me, you know, like, oh man, they're, they're trying stuff. You know what I mean?

They're going for it, even if it's in this wild direction. But there was in all of that, I think, a freedom and just like, we could go any direction with this, man. You know what I mean? I was conscious that I'm a Christian now and all of the music scenes I came from, I'm anathema to all of that now. If I'm going to make music to the Lord, I'm not trying to be accepted in some hip hop or punk scene. Christian music is just anathema to mainstream culture, or at least it was back then. So I was like, if I'm going to make music to the Lord, what do I got to lose here, man? Make the stuff I want to make, things that I think sound good. I didn't totally anticipate that other people would like that, but I was just... I think other good. And I didn't totally anticipate that other people would like that.

But I was just, I think other things I wanted to hear in some ways. I was like, I don't think there's anything out here that is addressing like this sound or this sound. And so I just was like tinkering and tampering and sampling and you know what I mean? Yeah. So I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah. Well, I tend to talk around in circles till I find my answer. You're a true artist, man.

You're a true artist. forward slash theology in the raw. All the information is in the show notes. You can support the show for as little as five bucks a month. And in doing so, you get access to all kinds of different premium content. And most of all, you just get access to the theology in the raw community. We have all kinds of awesome chats and messages back and forth. And it just, it means the world to us

that you support the show. As the show has grown, so have all the expenses and all the work that goes into pulling it off. So again, if you would like to support the show has grown, so have all the expenses and all the work that goes into pulling it off. So again, if you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology raw. And I just want to thank my, uh, the people that are already supporting the show. Thank you so much for keeping this show, not only going, but also thriving. So patreon.com forward slash theology and Iraq. My follow-up question is, is that a, well, it's a kind of two-sided question. Is that

risky for a musician to sort of break the rules on you need to be this genre or this genre do this? Like is, was that risky? Like, and did you care like then? And even now, like, do you ever create music thinking, man, I really want to make sure my audience appreciates this. Or do you just say, I like this. If people love it, that's great. If not, I'm going to let the chips fall where they may. Um, one of my favorite bands of all time is rush and they were very much on, we're going to produce stuff that we are interested in. And if it lands, it lands.

If not, we don't care. And sometimes it landed, sometimes it didn't. And they just produced it. I feel the same vibe in you, but I don't know. I'll let you. Yeah. I guess it could be risky. It could be risky.

I think it'd especially be risky if someone's doing that just for the sake of doing that. I want to be this artist that just doesn't care and does stuff all over that, you know what I mean? Plays out of key on purpose. Yeah, yeah. But when I think back, I know that from the very beginning,

I just, I started making these albums. At first, I mean, literally, I just recorded myself on an eight track and I would burn my own, mixed it, and would burn my own CDs and sell them out of the trunk of my car. And it caught on that way. And the music was all the way from the beginning,

it was like experimental. And so I think I have sort of cultivated the freedom with my listening base that part of what's to be expected is that I would try things. And I'm glad that I sort of have that freedom allowed to me, you know? And I think because of that, you know, some things land better than others. There are some things that are more sort of popular with a larger amount of people. But then I'll make, you

know, I put out like a really low key folk worship album in the beginning days of COVID. And some OG fans are like, I don't know, man. It's like pretty, pretty quiet, pretty subtle. But then there's other people that are like, this is my favorite thing you've ever done. Like this is so calming and I love this more of this please. But then, so you'll have people all over the spectrum. You know, a lot of people would like me to go back to just making like beat driven hip hop-esque music,

but I'll make whatever is like true to who I am at the time, you know, before I think not to do that is actually disingenuous and a little dishonest. So I am pretty sensitive to that. Where if I sense that I'm recycling a sound that I'm not really vibing with or really excited about, underneath that, if I start picking at that, I'll like oh I'm really like I'm trying to capture some magic I had ten years ago I'm trying to like everyone really liked it when I did that let's try that again you know I mean and whether people know it or not whether or not the artist even knows it or not that's that can be a little disingenuous it's like trying to capture the glory you had if

that's coming from like a true place where like, oh these sounds I was excited about, they've like come back to me. I'm excited about this again. I'm gonna like, I'm gonna work with some beats and man this is fun, you know? But if it's, if there's like deep down a primary motivation of like, I'm gonna like try to beef up those numbers again. I'm gonna like, this album I did was really popular. I'm going to do something really similar to that. And you know, man, I think you can feel it when, when that happens with people. And that's not just in music, that's in anything that works in your life. You know what I mean? Like, assessing motivation, you know, in the end, I really love music and I'm

really sort of jealous for the sound itself. And so I try to be honest with myself. I don't know if I always am. I try to be honest with myself though in assessing my motivation within a particular song of like, what am I trying to do here? Am I like really trying to impress here? Am I really trying to harken back to like quintessential signature Josh Garrel's here so I can get the core fans be like, Oh, there it

is. There it is. You know what I mean? If I'm not actually feeling it, I really just want to make like quiet, finger picked worship songs. That's where my heart's actually at. I probably should do the quiet finger picked songs if that's what's actually in me, and trust that that'll find the audience. And perhaps something will come around that, you know, OG fans over here will like sometime, but I can't, I don't want to force that. I'm pretty sensitive to not trying to like force that. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have you, have you listened to the latest the Pearl Jam album? I feel like they, they,

they went back to some of their, it feels like some of their original stuff and it, I didn't know as you're talking, I was like, I don't know if that was intentional if they're trying to redeem the past. I love this. I love the old stuff. Um, and I thought, man, this sounds like, you know, I mean, we're, I think we're roughly the same. I'm 48. You're probably 43, 43. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So like, I just think early mid 1990s is like the, you know, the best, the best rock music in my opinion. I mean, eighties, of course rock music in my opinion. I mean eighties, of course too. But yeah. So I mean Pearl Jam obviously led the way in that. And I just don't see that kind of old sound revived again, but yeah, you make a good point. Like if it

depends on how and why you're trying to do it, if you're trying to capitalize on earlier success when that was part of your journey, but isn't, doesn't need to be, yeah, there could be some bad motivations for trying to read you. And so I'm, I mean, I'm a writer as the same temptation, you know, you got one book that really kind of takes off or whatever. And then you, you try to write another book and try to mimic that. And it's just, it just typically doesn't go well when, especially when you're just trying to play into the masses or success or something. Um, it's like, it's like when, when, when movies, right? When they come out and part one is, or the first one is a success. And then part, they try

to do the same thing. It's just doesn't, doesn't. Yeah, dude. And some of those franchises, like some musicians, some of those franchises, I mean like Friday the 13th, 17, you know, like they literally like ride on the success or the fumes from like one good movie, Halloween, you know what I mean? I don't know why I'm picking on horror movies, but you can like ride into the sunset on the fumes of a thing that worked in our culture, you know what I mean? And so for anyone, any creative, anyone in a ministry or a writer, like testing it, you know, where we're at, and even our love for the thing itself, you know, am I just riding the fumes

into the sunset? The numbers are there that can qualify me to continue doing this. But is it effective? And I think that's, that's a question I ask a lot, like, is this effective? And I think that's a question I ask a lot. Like, is this effective? The numbers are there that I could just ride this, but like, is this what I'm called to do right now? And what's, if so, like what is actually in me? And that can be the hard work I think of like a career artist or writer is having to really be honest with like, okay, is this what I'm made to do at this point in my life? And if the answer then is yes, like really doing the hard work with your own story, being a student of your own story and asking like, well, what's God doing?

What's in me? And that may take years to just answer that question. And you could get impatient and bypass that and say, I'll just make another one like the last one. You know what I mean? When perhaps like, what if some of our greatest work is actually in these like 10, 20 years into the craft and the biggest temptation is to churn out content, especially in this day and age, churn that out.

You know what I mean? Like, stay, you got to keep it in front of people. You got to put something out. You know? I just ask questions a lot. What if the Lord was calling you to Himself for two or three years? It was hard financially because the same money's not coming in, but He's taking you back to class to show something new to you.

Then you emerge and you actually have something to say. And then like you could have put out three books in those three years and plateaued, you could have kept what you had, but maybe not really added anything to the influx of content. But you were able to pay your mortgage, you were able to keep your quality of life.

That's a temptation when you have a wife and kids in a mortgage, you know what I mean? What if he's calling you away to tell you something and that process isn't just I took a two week retreat and bam, my next book is here, my next album is here. What if it's like a few years of process to understand what he's doing and you're like what like what what he's saying and then you hit it and then that's like work that actually means something that is refreshing and a benefit a service to those around you you know.

I tend to think i just tend to think that that might be a reality but it's it's scary you know like like i said if you have a wife and kids and a mortgage and I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm? No. You might just be remembering when I first moved here, I'm sitting in our guest house here at our farm in Michigan. We moved here in the middle of the pandemic, back to nature, back to the country. I took a sabbatical right then too. We moved into this house,

I turned 40 and I took a year sabbatical. Part of that sabbatical honestly was me holding it musically, music open-handed for the first time in my adult life. Music's been good to me man. Like I said, I didn't aspire to this, but once I committed myself to it, I've worked hard. I've worked hard and put out a lot of albums. It's provided liberally for me and I have five kids. When you just talk about income and influence and music has provided those things. And I think I've been in this period,

starting with the sabbatical of holding it open-handedly and saying, you know, like, Lord, what are we doing? What are we doing here? Like, I'm willing, I'm willing to let go of this if you're asking me to, you know? So for the first time, kind of at least being willing to hold it open-handedly. And I'd say even since then, it's been this dialogue with me and him about like the place of music in my life. It's still in my life. I'm

still maybe making an album right now, just finished a soundtrack for these other guys. And it's still part of what I do, yet it's changing as I allow him to come in and assess it and lead me in it. You know what I mean? Yeah, so all that to say, you may have been thinking about that. I've definitely in this period also pulled back. I just downgraded with traveling and touring and online social media. I just, I very rarely interact with social media these days, just based on years of having to interpret,

why do I not like how I feel when I do that? Why do I feel anxious and like, this is most of the time, sort of a distraction and messes my day up. You know what I mean? So having to make sense of just a long track record of I don't love how this Like what it does to me, you know Anyway, I've been I've been quieter. I've been quieter for several years, but that's a little a bit of why I think like Yeah sabbatical and sort of figuring out. What is it at this point in my life?

You know, how what are we doing with this Lord? You know? What's the greatest challenge being a professional musician? Is it touring, being away from your family? Is it the financial, you know, I'm sure times, sometimes finances may have been stressful or whatever, but yeah, for you as a Christian artist, what's the greatest challenge? Yeah, one, I would say it's probably different for a lot of artists, you know, depending on temperament.

It would be different for a lot of people. The challenge that is. The greatest challenge. Yeah, I think for me, I would say would be like maintaining the purity of the thing itself. Because as I said just a moment ago, when you start entangling vocation mixed with your passion and the thing you love to do, mixed with, you know, if you're a believer, like some sense of calling on your life. So, you have this interaction with God and the thing you're doing, this interaction with

yourself and your own passion, and then this interaction with like industry and income, figuring out how those interact while keeping the thing itself. So in this case, making music and my interaction, keeping it pure as best as I can, not letting it get too entangled. I would say, carnality in the sense of in the worst case scenario, you are building this little kingdom. I mean, people know my music by my name, you know. So, I'm not, I'm like very, very lowercase small, small famous or whatever. Every once in a while in an airport, someone will be like, point at me and they'll say my full name, Josh Garerels. You know, like, yeah, hey, how you doing? You know, but when you're building like this industry and this business around your name and around offering something that's like really vulnerable

and it's the best work you could possibly create creatively. So then there's all your own attachment to it, your identity attachment to it. Cause oh my gosh, this is like, this is me. And this is my thoughts and my heart out of my sleeve here. And then people connect with it, which is the blessing and what you hope for. But then that connection equals sold out shows cause more people are connecting.

You know what I mean? So it gets real sticky, man. You know what I mean? So it gets real sticky, man. You know what I mean? So I would say I don't know how much deeper to get into it beyond just I've had to put certain governors on my career when I realized like, oh, when I do too much of this, just like social media, this feels not good. So like when social media becomes self-promotion, that doesn't feel right. And I think for a reason, the Lord says, let another praise you, not your own lips. He says, when you show up somewhere, take the lowest seat and get called up, don't assume you're at the highest seat. He means those things. So when we transgressgress those your heart will be like, oh like it boosted the numbers

But that felt gross, you know, so having to like make those real-time decisions of like gosh I know this is best practice. I know this is industry standard, but when I'm honest, I don't think this is right You know or being on the road too much. Yeah, I would say being on the road too much The few like when I used to tour a little more heavily, I remember this one tour, man. This one tour I was on, it was like two or three shows, too many. And by those last two or three shows, I was wore out, man. I was wore out. I was peopled out.

I'm an introvert, you know? So I can't, after a show, usually is when I'm like really excited. The show's done. I'm full of adrenaline. I'll connect with people. That's like the best time for me to connect with people. But after the show, those final two or three shows, I was sort of a zombie, but I'd committed to like being out there and talking to however many hundred people wanted to sit and wait and talk and sign this, can I take a picture? And I felt this thing in my heart well up that was almost angry with people and starting to be jaded and

starting to like try to cut conversations off and I was like whoa whoa whoa whoa like hey buddy like that's not that's not healthy you know that's that's not healthy for you or these people like so I would say yeah like again a long answer to your question, but having to in real time realize, oh, this is happening right now. This isn't good. What do you do when you come to those realizations? You have to go one way or the other. So for me, it was like, I'm going to tour less and I'm not going to do tours that are that long ever again. Really? What's a healthy tour look like for you? I mean, is it you're gone a week out of every

month or? Yeah. Yeah. Like I do, I do what I call dad touring, man. It's like three or four days fly out to three or four shows come home and then yeah, nothing for like another month at least. Okay. Okay. So I, have you ever been to, you ever come out to Boise, Idaho? I don't think you've ever, I've never been to Boise. No, I don't think I've ever done a show in Idaho that I can remember. I'm going to get you out here, man. Hey friends, my book, Exiles, The Church in the Shadow of Empire is out now.

I am so excited and a bit nervous about the release of this book. This is a topic I've been thinking about for many, many years and finally put pen to paper to write out all my thoughts. Specifically, I'm addressing the question, what is a Christian political identity? As members of Christ's global, multi-ethnic, upside-down kingdom scattered across the nations, how should we as members of that kingdom think through and interact with the various nations that we are living under? So So the book is basically a biblical theology of a Christian political identity. We look at the nation of Israel,

we look at the exile of Israel, we look at several parts of the New Testament, the life and teaching of Jesus, several passages in the book of Acts, the letters of Paul, do a deep dive into 1 Peter and the book of Revelation, and then explore some contemporary points of application. So I would highly encourage you to

check out my book, exiles, and would love to hear what you think, whether it's whether you hate the book or love it or still thinking through it. I'd love to hear what you think by dropping a review on Amazon or I don't know, post a blog, just, you know, ripping it to shreds. I don't really care. I would love for you to just wrestle with this really important topic in this really volatile political season that we're living in. All right. I want to, I want to ask you about a few songs. And so this first song is not only my favorite song of yours. It's one of my top five favorite songs of all time. It's on my running playlist. It's on my workout playlist. It's something I just listened to

constantly. It's one of the few songs I, I have several YouTube songs are my favorite. I still couldn't actually tell you the exact lyrics. This one I've, I've, I've worked through pretty extensively. So this comes from a lost animals, your lost animals album. And it's the song All Creatures. Oh creatures of our God and King Lift up your voice and let us sing Oh praise Him, oh praise Him, Alleluia What inspired this song? I think it's a unique song in the history of songs in general, but just the theology of creation mixed with, I just think the sound is just off the chart, but take us back in time. Yeah, I haven't thought through that song in a long time. I know that I... Got you off guard on that. thought through that song in a long time. I know that I sampled, I think it was the Salters at the time. Again, they were sort of like anarchist Christian gutter punk and

they were like, yeah, you could sample our song. So I like that accordion in the beginning is me like sampling their work and then, you know, layering these big beats on top of it. But the line that immediately comes to me in that song is the one about being sort of like an armchair warrior or like a meant to be wild and rooted in the reason they were created, you know? And so, like you said, it sounds like you've connected in particular to the songs that have some elements of like manhood or warfare, which I think many of us feel deep down in our hearts that we're called into an epic storyline, which is something I do still feel very strongly about.

I know a lot of people say this, but I'm of the opinion that we live in an epic that is like Rival's Lord of the Rings. I think if we could see what was happening around us and what's at stake, it would be so eye-opening. We would all live our lives much differently. If we really, really internalized or it was revealed to us what's at stake in our own lives, in our family's lives,

in the world, in the time we live in, you know, our jaws would drop, you know. And so I think I've always had that internal sense that I think a lot more is happening here than we realize. And I think we actually are called to, we're called into a war. Like when you're born again, whether you like it or not, you're born into a war. And all of a sudden, your eyes were blinded before by the God of this world, which is what scripture says, Satan has blinded the eyes of those who don't know the Lord. And when you come into faith, there's a reason we say I was blind, but now I see all of a sudden your eyes are open to the reality of God. But that also means that you're placed

squarely in the Lord's camp and his army, which also means that you're a target, you know, which means you're in a battle. You were born into warfare. And so I think that song, like the others that you've mentioned that I think you resonate with, would be ones of me really grappling with and we're in a battle here. And if I can, if I can create anthems to excite people to realize that that's a good thing. You know, that's can be a sobering eye opening thing to reorient ourselves today. You know, cause I'm fickle. I forget if I can reorient myself today, they're like, okay, today is more than me just taking care of my punch list of details. I got to do like this is today is the day the Lord has made and like, all right, open my eyes.

What's going on around me? You know? Yeah. Well, lots of that song, it just, it, it, it just alerts you to how God permeates all of creation, you know? And even in the, you know, you mix in just, you know, like a theology of creation, but just kind of seemingly mundane parts of life and sort of redeeming those and saying, no, all of seemingly mundane parts of life and sort of redeeming those and saying, no, all of life is meaningful. At least that's kind of how I, my heart responds to it. I know we've already talked about it, but I would love to hear kind of, yeah, the heart that went behind this next one. So this comes from your Jacaranda album and it's not mine Misappropriation of funds

Protect my 90% with my guns Whose side am I on? Well, who's winning? My kingdom built with the blood of slaves Orphans, widows and homeless graves I sold their souls just to build my private mansion Yeah, what's the story behind this one? Again, yeah, like a compare and contrast of really, again, two rival systems, two rival kingdoms, scripturally Babylon being this picture of the systems of men, the systems of this world.

You know, when Babylon the Great falls in Revelation, there's this whole list of all the things that were traded and bought and sold. And at the very end of that long, long list, it says, and the bodies and souls of men at the very bottom of this list of all these things that were bought and sold. Meaning that system is built upon the backs of people exploited and trafficked. And it's upside down in the sense compared to then Zion, which is this picture of the Lord system, the Lord's kingdom. Well, the second verse, it says, it's a misappropriation of funds, protect my 99% with my guns. Whose side am I on? Well, who's

winning? My kingdom's built with the blood of slaves, orphans, widows, and homeless graves. I sold their souls just to build my private mansion." Just that tension we live in, we live in this most successful, luxurious nation. And a lot of times we celebrate that, or even we have the most powerful military in the history of any nation, you know, but then like how that gets in intertwined with our faith can be really destructive. You know, and I just, in this song, I just feel you like digging in and trying to separate these systems that have become merged together where they, there really is a lot more opposition between Zan and Babylon than congruence. And yet we live in a daily battle of fighting that congruence. It just wants to seep into our bones and you're just pulling those apart.

And I would, I would imagine some people might've even been offended at this song. That's what I liked about it so much. I mean, the goodness has it gets that protest kind of a feel to it in a, in not in the protest or protest sake punk rock. I'm just going to be different. And with someone says, go this way, I'm going to go the opposite. But a true like again, theologically rich upside down kingdom kind of protest. And so I just, I so resonate with it, man. So good right on. That was the, that was the first song actually Zion Babylon was the first song where I changed my delivery from more of a hip-hop delivery into sort of... I remember even at the time, I watched some

documentary on Woody Guthrie and his guitar. He would go around singing these freedom anthems with this acoustic guitar that said, this machine kills fascists. He would write on his acoustic guitar and like, you know, even old Bob Dylan, like masters of war and stuff, where they're just kind of almost in a hip hop manner, compacting a lot of words and a lot of thoughts in the kind of just a simple chord structure that keeps repeating, which is sort of like hip hop. You know what I mean?

And it's interesting Zion Babylon, that was the first one where I was like, I'm gonna like do this one different. I'm not gonna, essentially, there's gonna be a lot of words in this song, but it's not gonna be like a hip hop delivery. It's almost gonna be like a Woody Guthrie delivery, you know? And I mean, that was sort of the child then of like farther along, at the table.

Those are all ones that have sort of followed the evolution of that type of delivery, which is almost more of a hybridized, like it's connected to hip hop, but it's not, you know? Yeah. Well, at the table was the next one. So this comes from your album, Home, which is a little more recent. When did Home come out? It was 2015.

So we're looking at nine years, man. Oh, so nine years. Golly. Sheesh. Somewhere back when I was young, I was a good man's child. So I lost the nameless things, my innocence flew away from me. She had a hotter face for my desire to embrace forbidden fire. But at night I dream she's singing over me. Oh, oh my child, come home. Yeah, what's the story behind that at the table? In broad strokes, it's sort of the prodigal son and elder son, you know, the first stanza or the first verse is probably more like the prodigal son, you know, saying, I went the way of wayward winds, you know, you're following him realizing

that he's abandoned something. And he longs to go back. It would be that moment where, you know, the son says, I believe I'll turn around and go back home and see if I can at least eat the pods or whatever. No, no, he's eating the pods. And he says, if I go back home, I'll be treated better by my father, you know. But then, yeah, the second verse being a committal to like, I'm gonna live into my purpose now, you know, like I'm gonna I'm gonna put my hand to the plow and I'm gonna keep moving forward until I get to the father's home, you know what I mean? Yeah, so one's a welcoming back to a prodigal, the other one is like sort of looking at the one who's, I wouldn't say like the elder brother,

but like the person who's just dedicated themselves to like sort of that long obedience in the same direction with a sense of there'll be a time when I'll be welcomed in, when all this work will be worth it. I know I can't look back. I have nowhere else to go. I have to keep moving forward. And I'd say say that might be or you're more mature Christian who like You know, I was the prodigal son at one point But I've also now been a believer for 24 years

So I can relate more to the one who has like their hand on the plow and they're like, dude This is harder than I thought it was gonna be, you know, but I'm gonna keep pushing forward, you know Your latest one. This will be the last one. We'll talk about your single just released. I think a couple months ago, the watchman. Yeah. We're just listening to this last night with my family and just, it really spoke to us. Like we, we've like any family ups and downs, we've had some tough few years for various reasons. And just that theme of the morning, I forget the exactly, I forgot to write down the lyrics, but yeah, anticipating, I'm sure is it inspired by Ezekiel three of that, that parable, the watchman standing

at the city gate and looking and here almost anticipating that light will come. It might not feel like it now, but there get stranger than the lies Cause it's simple and it's holy It's better than they told me Jesus, you're my only kind of life And you're all I have, Lord, you are the way And I'll always love you, and I will wait Like a watchman at the gate What inspired this song? Yeah, I mean definitely what we see happening over the past three or four years

You know that I think the numbers are coming in the studies of how many people are Not only like abandoning church, but abandoning the faith You know and these are yeah for most of us because the numbers are so high, if we sat and thought, we can make a little list of those that we've walked with over the past five, 10, 15 years of those that have now walked away. I've got a pretty lengthy list. And some of these are people that we shared those zealous,

idealistic 20-something years living in community and trying to live out the book of Acts together. those zealous, idealistic 20-something years living in community and, you know, trying to live out the book of acts together. And, you know, like these are people that I ran pretty deep with, you know. But, you know, I talked with my friend John Eldridge interviewed me about this song too, and we were both realizing like this trend though, it's not like new to the pandemic and everything that's happened politically and the shift in so many structures and economies.

It's not the last four or five years. For me, I mean, it goes all the way back to like 2010, 2011 when I was writing Love and War in the Scene Between, which was me writing songs like Slip Away and others and the Resistance. Even back then, maybe the intuitive part of me or maybe even like if there's a prophetic thing that I don't realize is there sometimes,

but even then realizing like, whoa, something's happening right now. Like something's changing. It was, I looked at the body around me and I looked at even back then people beginning to, I started to feel like there was this falling away. And back then I just attributed it to like, well, we're in our early thirties, so we're seeing the first wave of our friends get divorced and walk away from the faith. This must just be what happens at this time. There's some casualties,

like that made me and my wife do some self-assessment. Okay, like where are we weak that we could be given to these things? You know what I mean? So like in many ways we chose to strengthen ourselves in the Lord in that time when we saw those things happening all the way back in 2010, you know. But the trend never stopped. It's just sort of every year there's more people sort of added to the list. Well, in our life, not a lot of people being added to the list of like, Whoa, but look what they're doing. Like they're, they're going hard

after the Lord. Whoa, look at the story in that person's life. You know what I mean? Like those stories are fewer and far between at this point, at least in our circles for whatever reason, you know? So Watchmen, yeah, definitely coming from that place of seeing the traumas and everything that have like, kind of pulled my friends away from the moorings, broken them free from their anchor, you know, coming to terms with that while realizing like, if any of us are going to make it, we got to keep our, our lamps full of fuel. We got to like keep our eyes open. We need to stay awake as we're commanded to stay awake and look for his coming. Yeah. Like a lot depends on this, you know, but in the, in

the picture of that watchman, I think it's an Ezekiel or it might be somewhere else in scripture where the Lord actually holds the watchman accountable to whether or not he was awake. Cause like the lives of everyone inside the city depend on that person staying awake. So realizing if there are some of us that are awake, if we think we're awake, you know, I think some people think they are and they might not be, but like if we are really awake

to what the Lord's doing in this time, it's like we'll be held accountable to what the Lord's doing in this time, it's like, we'll be held accountable to what we do with that information. If we just hunker down and close our mouths and thank God that we're not, our family's not going to pot like the rest of the world out there or something like that. Like you may actually be held accountable for not taking what he showed you and blowing the trumpet and calling people to him. You know what I mean? Um, anyway, there's some thoughts on that. Yeah. Is that part of, uh,

is that a standalone single or is it a pre-release of a future album or, you know, man, I have a whole album. It's part of a whole album. I've got a 12 song album that I've kind of gone back to basics. I've been producing and mixing these songs on my own, making my own album art. And it just takes a lot longer. I've sort of, in some ways, it's like going back to school. I'm like learning to really mix for the first time. So I like mixed that one myself. And so because of that, I think these songs are taking longer. I'll probably just leak out one by one as I finish

them rather than, yeah, I don't know. It feels right this time around to just address each song as its own little thing and then put it out there. But there are, there are 12 songs. So that means there's like 10 more that are waiting to be released as I finish them. Well, Josh, thanks so much for being on the Algera. So enjoy the conversation. Where can, well, people can look up, they can just Google your name on Spotify, their favorite music app. How about any upcoming tour dates in the near future of the summer?

I got nothing this summer, man. I got some things potentially in the books, but yeah, I like, like I said, I'm not traveling much right now. That's why I, I, I get it. I'm a father of four and I travel for a living and yeah, that's tough, but it's sad for us fans who would love to see you more, but I'm glad, I'm glad you're making wise decisions along those lines, but thanks so much, man. Really appreciate you love your music and I love your heart behind everything you're doing. So yeah, really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks, Preston. It's good to be here. I was born into a system constructed for failure.

It's a sink and ship me in mind by drunken sailors. This gay boy is behind the bars of a jailer. And his mind is attacking it with hope, the inhaler. If a shoe doesn't fit, what good is it, tailor? In the midst of this crisis, please cancel the gala. Without a symphony, there's no need for a playlou. The foreshadow wants to come See the secret committees commence with a...

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