Theology in the Raw - Bonus Q&A: Revival and Manifest Presence, "Last Supper" Scene At The Olympics, and More!

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

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Hello friends. Welcome back to another bonus Q and a episode where I, uh, field and address a bunch of questions sent in from my patron supporters. Uh, you're going to get a sneak peek at the first several minutes of my responses to several questions, questions like, uh, my thoughts on the last supper esc scene, uh, at the Olympics thoughts on the apparent revivals happening across the Western church. Why are so many evangelicals joining the Eastern Orthodox church? Is it okay to masturbate while fantasizing about one spouse being at while you're out of town? Can I expand on my view that same sex attraction is not a morally culpable sin and many, many, many

other questions. If you want to support the show and get an opportunity to not only ask a question at next month's Q and a, and also get the full length, uh, recording of this Q and a episode, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology, raw massive shout out to all of you who are supporting the shot, uh, has been supporting the podcast. You truly are, uh, a vital asset to theology and raw. And you keep this whole thing going for good or for ill. So let's jump into some of these questions. Okay. Zach wants to know, I'm not Pentecostal, but God seems to be up to something in pockets of the Western church. What are my thoughts on revival manifest presence and consecration or seeking the Lord? Let me first of all say I am not by any stretch

a re a specialist when it comes to revivals. I too am not Pentecostal nor the son of a Pentecostal. So I can just offer a few thoughts, kind of take it or leave it. I would definitely crosscheck my thoughts with somebody who maybe has studied revivals that knows when to spot a genuine revival and, and when a, an apparent revival is not actually legitimate. So yeah, I've, you know, I've talked to some pastors who have said the same thing, like pastors who don't know each other, like different parts of the country that, man, it's just, I'm seeing some unique things happening that I have not seen to this degree in my five, 10, 20, 30, 40 years of ministry. Okay. So that's just anecdotal. But it kind of says the same thing you are. I mean, people that aren't

like Pentecostal, when I say that, and I hear you saying, you mean, people that aren't like Pentecostal, who when I say that and I hear, I hear you saying, you know, like people who are not Pentecostal are not necessarily, they're not like prone prone or pre-programmed to kind of see revivals everywhere. So the fact that non-Pentecostals are kind of noticing what seems like could be revival-ish type things happening, I think that does mean something. Of course, we had the Asbury revival that happened a couple of years ago. I don't know what the results of that have been. I have not checked in with my friends at Asbury to see what has been the lasting effect or the ongoing effect of that revival. I don't know the answer to that question. I'm sure an effect of that revival? I don't, I don't know the answer to that question. I'm sure there's people out there that do from my vantage point, like I, I do think a genuine revival

will lead to repentance, genuine lasting repentance, life change. Like it can't just be an emotional gathering or a series of emotional gatherings, or lots of people get all hyped up. Maybe they're making confessions or crying. They're just like seeking the Lord in that moment when like five years later, like there's nothing really that is different about the majority of these people's lives. Like if the Holy spirit is genuinely involved in the Romans eight, one to 11 cents, then you're going to be seeing a new life. You're going to be seeing repentance. You're going to be seen lasting conversions. You're

going to be seen robust discipleship, radical living. Like, and you then that's going to, that's going to, there's going to be some lastiness to that. You're going to see, as you know, you, G Peterson so famously phrased it, you're going to see a long obedience in the same direction. So almost like if, for instance, if we're talking about like, man, just like right now in this moment seems to be lots of revival ish type things happening, then I can't even, nobody can really say whether it's legitimate for another five, 10, 15 years. I think, cause I think again, the Holy spirit doesn't just come and go and cause repentance

here and then move it away. Like he in under his new covenant ministry, the Holy spirit doesn't just come and go and cause repentance here and then move it away. Like he in under than his new covenant ministry, the Holy spirit indwells people to produce lasting moral change, not perfection, but a genuine ongoing, again, obedience in the same direction. So it can't, I don't think revivals can be measured by, um, lots of people showing up to event. I've had, I've had this happen where people like, man, we, we did this youth event, a thousand people showed up and people were crying and worshiping the Lord and all this. I'm like, that's, that's great. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's, we, we don't know if that's like a, uh, if the whole, if that is a genuine byproduct of the Holy spirit moving until we see again, some ongoing life change, not just kind of emotional hype. So I don't have much more

to add to that. I do, you know, the pastors that I talked to that say, no, I, I am noticing some unique things that is more in the category of, you know, a higher than average number of genuine conversions. So people pursuing the Lord, not just on an fleeting emotional way, but in lifelong commitment or an ongoing pattern of life change. So yeah, I'll leave it at that. I don't know of any studies that have kind of looked at it kind of corporately, because if we just go on anecdotal experiences, we can only take that so far. But I don't know if there's anybody that's kind of measuring whether or not there's these revivals are taking place in the Western church in, in a really in-depth, meaningful sense.

So maybe there's somebody out there that has done that study. Next question. I have some friends you say, who have exited evangelicalism for Eastern orthodoxy. Can you share your thoughts and takes on orthodoxy's main divergences? Again, here, I'm going to plead a bit of ignorance here, but I will point you to the all general episode nine 82 titled the beauty of the Greek Orthodox Church, where I interview somebody who is raised and is deeply involved with the Greek Orthodox church where I interview somebody who is raised and is deeply involved with the Greek Orthodox church in the United States. I have noticed this trend. I have a few friends who have been on the same trajectory. They left evangelicalism for the Greek Orthodox

or for the Eastern Orthodox church. You know, so main differences, I mean, this is something you could probably, you probably Google it and get, I'm sure there's some like breakdowns or kind of the main divergences. I am not an expert in this. I've never even been to an Eastern Orthodox service. So my knowledge is extremely minimal. It's really based on a few podcasts conversations I've had with people that are part of the Orthodox church and friends of mine who have left evangelicalism for the Orthodox church. What they tell me is they really appreciate the meaningfulness behind an intentionality behind the liturgy. As one friend put it, you know, we are, we are complex whole beings. We touch, we taste, we, we smell, we have, you know, our, our, our emotions are our intellect,

you know, our analytical reasoning, and also just our bodies, you know, feel certain things. And we are, we are more than just walking brains. And as one of, one of my friends said, again, this isn't just, just what he said, you know, like he says, when I was in my evangelical environment, only part of my humanity was being touched by the gatherings, typically my mind, sometimes my emotions, or sometimes my emotions and not my mind, depending on your church context. But in my Eastern church, every week, my whole body is experiencing the presence of the Lord, the smells, the iconography, the architecture, like everything is so intentionally oriented to, to, to impact the whole person, even the liturgy where you're standing, you're kneeling,

you're reciting, like you are participating in the rhythm of the service. You're not just sitting there as a passive recipient of somebody else's gifts. You are participating in the rhythm of the liturgy. So again, I'm not, I'm not making a value statement for against, I'm just saying this is one of the main differences that people are attracted to. Uh, the Eastern church, I will say they do embrace mystery. They don't try to fake. Oh, I'll say overly figure out God. They kind of resist some of the typical evangelical systematic theological approaches where you have all these theological boxes that you put God in, or that sounds

kind of pejorative, but yeah, these categories that where you try to organize your, you know, Christian world, the end in some cases, maybe nail God down a little bit too tightly. Whereas the Eastern church, as my Eastern friends tell me, they're just much more okay with the mystery. God's God is God sovereign. Yes. Is he King? Yes. Does he listen to prayer? Yes. Does he change his mind? Yes. Because the Bible says all that, you know, like that last one's a little controversial, but there are statements that say God relented from what he was going to do or in some translations, change his mind. That's a big, big debate about what that means. But, but there, so it's somebody on the, in the Eastern church, they're not going to have maybe an overly systematized theology. They're going to be

more eager to have an encounter with Christ and not have them all organized under a airtight theological kind of framework. I would say the Eastern church again, and it's clear. Ecclesiology seems to be much more serious or that could sound, I don't want to say like evangelical church is not serious, but maybe more contemplative, less emotional in the particular sense of just having like your emotions going up and down or whatever. I think it is a bit more, yeah, could be contemplative would be the best way to describe it or, or serious in tone. Again, not that evangelical churches are not serious. I just was at a big evangelical church

just yesterday at the time of recording. And it was a very, it was a very, very evangelical, very emotional. Um, and I would say mildly charismatic in, in, in some sense of the term, but also very serious and it's doctrinal commitment and biblical commitment. The Eastern church does seem to be extremely Christ centered in a high church sense of being Christ centered. It really, I, in fact, I heard a testimony from a evangelical theologian. This is years ago at a theological conference where he gave a whole paper on why he left the evangelical church as a theologian to join the Eastern church. And that was his big, that was his main point. I'll never forget. It's like 10, 15 years

ago when I heard this and I'll never forget him talking about how Christ centered the Eastern churches. That might sound odd because if you go to like an act 29 church or reform church and evangelical, you know, like, no, no, we're the Jesus center ones. And, and I think it's, it's a, I think both can be Christ centered, but the Eastern church does it in a more high church sense where again, everything down all the way to the architecture, the iconography, the liturgy, like everything is just so oriented around the person and mystery and beauty of Jesus Christ. And so I think for people that leave the evangelical church, I think in some cases, again, I'm not making any categories categorical statement here, but in some cases, the, the, some evangelical church could have the rhetoric or veneer of

being Christ centered. But then when you go to an Eastern church, it's, it's just so much more multifaceted and, and in a sense, maybe more, more thoughtful. That is one thing that I think is pretty characteristic of almost every evangelical that I know that has left evangelicals and for the Eastern churches. They are typically very intellectual. They typically read a lot of books. They ask a lot of really hard questions and they're unsatisfied with easy answers. And so they are attracted to the, the multi-layered meaningfulness and thoughtfulness of the Eastern, the Eastern environment. I'll leave it at that. There's probably more I could speculate on, but again, I am not the expert to go to. I'm just kind

of relaying what other people who have been on the same journey have said to me. Next question. What are some of your, I missed this before, but now I can't unsee it in scripture. Like it's everywhere. So like, like he uses a couple of examples here or he or she, you know, like the nonviolent kingdom ethic, like I didn't see this before in scripture. Now, when I read the Bible, I see it everywhere. How much of the Bible is leaning into nonviolent forms of action? Or another example, this person uses is conditional immortality versus eternal conscious torment, or another word, the, the, the, the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, me, uh, raised in a very anti nonviolent Christian environment. Uh, I just thought that anybody who is a quote unquote pacifist, I don't love that term, but you know, the more popular term that anybody was a so-called pacifist has obviously not even read the Bible. Um, and now it's like, I, I think the opposite, like I just, I did, I do think there's just a lot of biblical evidence for a nonviolent posture of the kingdom of Christ. Same thing with the, with annihilation versus eternal

conscious torment. I mean, I think I counted at one time over 70 passages that I think best, are best interpreted to refer to an annihilation view of hell, all over the place in the Old Testament when it talks about the kind of final state of those who are in rebellion against God. Many in the New Testament as well, but the Old Testament is just, there's a lot. Versus now, I might see a couple of verses that I could see where people would get an eternal conscious torment view, but, you know, the one, maybe two verses that could be taken in that direction against, to my mind, an overwhelming majority that

would go in a different direction. And again, I know I might be making some of you mad or scared or whatever, but if you, if you, if this is your first time you hearing me say something about the afterlife or hell, if you go back, I think a couple of years, I gave a two part series on the different views of hell was part one. And the second part was my biblical survey of the annihilation view of hell or conditional immortality. So, yeah, those are big ones for me, just as for the person who asked this question. I think, you know, early on for me, it was the gospel, it was the focus on Jesus's focus on the marginalized, the outcast, the oppressed. Like I remember, I wasn't trained to read

the Bible that way. And so I just, I feel like I just didn't see it. And now it's like, no, this is like a major thread in all four gospels, especially the gospel of Luke. I mean, it's there in Mark, Matthew and John as well, but it's everywhere in Luke. And I remember talking to years ago, a very intelligent evangelical conservative pastor. And he was saying like, no, this isn't a major thing. This is, I don't, you know, it's nice. It's hardly even there. He thought I'm like, how, how can you, like, I could, how do you read these passages without seeing that this is a major theme in the Gospels more recently? Well, not, I would say maybe 10 years ago, the theme of ethnic inclusion,

how many stories are challenging ethnic divisions or ethnic superiority in both the old and new testaments. That's something, you know, that I, I now, when I have that lens on, I was like, Oh yeah, this story is about that. That story's about that. This story is about that. This story is about that. Romans one through five is largely about breaking down ethnic divisions. The whole book of Galatians is concerned with that Ephesians. I would say all the way from two 11 all the way into chapter four really kind of even spills over into chapter five as well. Reveal the book of revelation all throughout the gospel. So I mean, it's, it's just like, wow, once you start reading it through this lens, this is a major concern of the biblical writers.

More recently, seeing how the Bible, especially the old Testament humanizes women, especially when read against its cultural and historic context that has brought to light many passages I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure if it's a, I'm not sure. And it was, I just read it through a certain lens of, you know, where's the rapture, where's the tribulation, what, you know, the timing of future events. It was all like just eschological or future stuff. And now after having studied the book of revelation in its first century Jewish apocalyptic context, it belongs to

a, a genre of Jewish apocalyptic literature. And so when you read it alongside other Jewish books like for Ezra or second Baruch or parts of one Enoch, or even second Enoch, that this was a very common book of revelation is participating in a very common discussion about politics. It just is. I just, I now, like when I read the book of revelation, it is almost all about empire and how Christians can live in that context in the first century in light of specifically the Roman empire. But the way the book of revelation kind of talks about empire in a general way, so that this applies to all believers living in the shadow, you might say of the empire. I just, I'm like,

now I'm like, how, how did I take an entire college class on this? It didn't even once in my mind raise some kind of political question or a political category where now I'm like, the entire thing is feel political. I don't want to say political, not theological is absolutely theological. But I think in the first century, politics and theology were kind of just merged together. So it is a Theo, a powerful Theo political book. And that that's the design. Apocalyptic literature was almost like the literature, the genre, sorry, the genre that people used in order to reveal, to unmask the political powers of the day. Like it's, um, the very genre is kind of designed to do that. So anyway,

so now when I read the book of revelation, I feel like I'm reading a completely different book than what I read it, you know, 25 years ago. Okay. Regarding the last supper scene at the Olympics. Well, you, Elena, Elena, I have a history of mispronouncing Elena's name, but that is how you pronounce it. Regarding the outrage about the last supper esc scene during the opening of the Olympics. Should we even care or just chalk it up to Babylon being Babylon. I have so many half-baked thoughts on this. Half-baked meaning I haven't read extensively on the issue.

I heard that they apologize. Okay, so I mean, I think 98% of people listening know what it is, but just for kicks and giggles, is that the same? You know, at the opening scene of the Olympics, they had this, you know, what seemed to be a rendition, a modern rendition of the last supper only had a, a bunch of, I don't think exclusively, but a lot of like drag queens that were representing the disciples of Christ. You had a woman at the center, given a heart signal that was sort of representing Jesus. You know, I don't think she was trans. I think she's a lesbian, I think.

But yeah, so yeah, a lot of LGBTQ people representing The Last Supper and people were outraged over this. So let, let me, can I just, I just want to kind of think, let me just think out loud through this. My initial thought was, Oh wow, that's pretty not globally minded when over a billion people on the planet are Christians. And especially the global South, This isn't just a, you know, an attack on American evangelicals who everybody likes to attack. And I was like, whatever, but like, no, you're attacking, you're kind of making a mockery or at least going to offend a good chunk of the globe at a global event.

My first thought was well done, France. My immediate follow-up thought was that's pretty, that's pretty French. My wife is born and raised in France. We spent a lot of time in France. I spent several months living in France off and on. So I know a decent amount about the French culture. And in my opinion, the French, let me, I love so many aspects of the French culture. The times I've lived in there, I just, I absolutely love how they, their pace of life, how they value long conversations and their food culture is amazing. It's not just food. It's about the artistry of food.

It's about the artistry of food. It's about the communion that surrounds food. Like one of the things that frustrates Americans when they go to France is like meals. When you go for a meal, they're typically two to three hours. You'll have an a pad of teeth, you know, like a glass of wine, some bread, some cheese, hang out, talk, wait an hour, maybe have another glass of wine. Then you, then you order your meal. It's usually slow coming out. And then the thing in most European countries, but especially in France, like they don't bring you the bill. You have to ask for it because they don't want to rush you out of your meal because a meal isn't just about shoving calories down your gullet. It is about enjoying the experience to slow down, to enjoy relationships and, and, and conversations. And so we kind

of got in that rhythm to where, you know, every night, a meal at your dinner is a three hour event, three to four hour event. I love that. So awesome. There's so much I love about French culture. There's also some things that are, I get a little annoying. I mean, I think the, the French are very like, they love the French. They are very proud of the French culture and they kind of don't have, but I'm speaking generally. Okay. I don't want to speak categorically with Jenna. They don't really kind of aren't really impressed with people outside France. You know, like they are kind of an, I would say more of an, it's more of an ethnocentric kind of culture. They pride themselves on, on their French ways of doing things. And when you come in and you

don't do things in French way, that's kind of like, you guys, you guys don't know what you're doing. And you feel that you can feel that when you're there. Luckily, my, my wife is fluent in French without an accent. So when we go, we can kind of blend in a little bit. Although I'm I'm like, I'm like the walking epitome of what it looks like to be American. So I'm like, no matter what I do, I, you know, even if I don't open my mouth, they just, they know I'm an American, but the French culture is also extremely, it's very sexual and it's very individualistic and it's very, very, very secular. It's far beyond even like nominal Catholicism. It's, it's far beyond that. And it's like, I remember we stayed in Airbnb once with this nice old lady. She

read it out. She showed us around and so sweet. And we're going to their house. So just like these, the most like obscene paintings, like, like not, not just good art, but like stuff that I don't want to go into details, but it was like, how do you have this absolutely obscene painting? Like in your bed, like in your bedroom on the wall. And it was just like, Oh, that's just, yeah. Like we'll just have pictures of orgies. All right. You know, it's just, it's just normal. You know, it's like, it's not, it's not a big deal. I don't even think it's, I don't know. It's just, it's all, it's just, it's, it's a very different culture. So all that to say, bring it back. And it's kind of a long response.

It wasn't that shocking that the French would do something like that. That this is all, this is me and my initial impression. Pretty break, pretty, pretty like ignorant of the global South. You're going to do that. Come on, dude. But it's like, eh, it's kind of friendly. It's not surprising to French would do that. And they, they pride themselves in being hyper, hyper, hyper inclusion, inclusive. And except for maybe evangelical Western Christians, you know, but then I started, I started reflecting on it. I started reading a little bit. I'm like, well, what, what were they intentionally trying to mock Christianity? Is it even a portrait of the last supper? You know, I don't know if you've

probably seen pictures of, um, other portraits of the feast of Dionysus. And it's like, Oh, this looks actually really close to some of those portraits. I think there was a Dutch painting that, uh, I believe it's in a museum in France, maybe in Leon or Nice or something. Um, and it's like, well, that it actually looks really close to that too. Were they even trying to portray the last supper? I think so. When they look at the Da Vinci, I'm like, it's pretty close, but then it's also close to Dionysus. And then you have Dinesis, you know, jumping out of the cake or whatever. So are they merging the two? Like, what do they do? I don't know. Like what's the intention here? One good faith reading. Okay. One good faith reading that just good faith. And then

maybe a potentially positive interpretation is you're dealing with a pretty decadent secular society that isn't trying to antagonize the global church by doing what they did less ever. Maybe they were trying to capture what they think is Jesus's original message of love and inclusion. And before you yell at me, no, but that's not inclusive. You have to follow them. Be pented. And yeah, I get that. I'm saying this is a, a very, maybe a secular interpretation of what they think very little in a very limited way was maybe the heart behind this person of Jesus, you know, and we are trying to represent the heart behind Jesus being inclusive. He included a zealot among his disciples. He included Judas who ended up betraying him.

He included Matthew, a tax collector, a sellout to the Roman government. I mean, here he had polar opposites among the disciples and Jesus in that sense was inclusive. Now he included people to repent and follow him. Yes. I get that. And the Olympic thing to, you know, maybe, maybe would have missed that, you know, I, but I'm trying to say like, what was the heart? Were they deliberately trying to mock Christianity? That is one potential reading. Okay. It's not the only way to interpret this. So I don't know. I, I, I, here, here's also what bothers me. We've had idolatrous renditions of images of Christianity throughout history, but when it doesn't offend our, for instance, political leanings, maybe some, some people were okay.

Making correlations between Jesus and Trump. I would be E if, if the, if the last separate Olympics was trying to mock Christian or trying to, what if it was just a kind of a bad, like they, there's just, that was just wrong. I would be equally outraged over any kind of trying to hijack Jesus to be a Republican or Trump or a Democrat. This is, you know, my position on this, it's equal on both sides, except numerically, a lot more people do it on the right in Christianity or how Jesus has been hijacked to be like a support for militarism. Oh my word. Like that to me, that is equally offensive to God. Trying to hijack Jesus to represent, that is equally offensive to God tank, trying to hijack Jesus or represent

something that just goes counter everything. Jesus stood for and taught. I am not saying any, any individual in the military is that I'm talking about militarism as a very broad thing. Um, that, that is, that is not something that captures the heart of, of what Jesus was all about. So, um, yeah, we, we've been doing this for years or we have all the paintings that Jesus is a white middle-class Western person like that. That is deeply offensive. So, so we've been making a mockery of Jesus intentionally unintentionally for 2000 years really, and how we represent him to sort of support our various agendas. So yeah, so I'm equally kind of opposed to all that.

Also lastly, I'll say one more thing kind of to your point, Elena, when you asked this, yeah, I kind of like, okay, a very secular society really really misrepresented. The last supper, the essence of what that event was, was meant to be. Shrug my shoulders. Okay. Well, whatever. Like, I don't, you know, you got guys like Andrew Tate saying, Christians, you need to be upset and fight back and all this stuff. Like, come on, dude. First of all, I think you lost your moral high ground to speak for how Christians should behave. First of all, second of all, no, no, no. When Jesus was mocked in first Peter two, he did not respond in kind. Like, no, we don't like God's so much bigger than what some non-Christians are going to do to try to represent him. I

think God's like, no, like, what am I going to do? They, you know, they, they mocked some, you know, Italian painters rendition kind of this representation of the last step. Like I think the Holy spirit is so much more powerful than that. So I would be more upset over all of the dead women and children in Israel, Palestine, all the, all the dead people in Russia and in Ukraine over the, all the dead people in Russia and in Ukraine over this, this ongoing conflict there, I would be, I would be more upset over all of the abuse that happens in Christian churches. There's a lot more thing that would cultivate my righteous indignation than this rendition of the last supper. Next question. Jake says I was an anti-Trump until last month. Now I am finally realizing all the wing nuts ranting about the leftist media might actually be onto something. Am I crazy?

Jake? No, I don't think you're crazy. I'm probably where you are. Like some of the right wing critiques of the left. I'm like, yeah, that's a legitimate critique. That's a legitimate critique. And our left-wing media outlets promoting a narrative and propaganda. Absolutely. Do they misrepresent Trump to make him look as worse as he possibly can be? Absolutely. I've chased down a few things where they have literally just misrepresented what he said. Trump says and does enough stupid, sinful, horrific things that you don't need to. You can just report accurately and you have enough to go on. Why make stuff up? Why take soundbites and manipulated, leave stuff out of context. Like, like, and I see time. Hey friends, I hope you enjoyed this portion of the Patreon Only Q&A podcast. If you'd like to

listen to the full-length episode and receive other bonus content like monthly podcasts, opportunities to ask questions, access to first drafts of my research and monthly Zoom chats and more, then please head over to patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw to join theology in the raw's Patreon community. That's patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.