Theology in the Raw - Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza: Dr. Munther Isaac

Episode Date: March 27, 2025

Dr. Munther Isaac is a Palestinian pastor, theologian, author, and activist. He has an MA from Westminster Theological Seminary and a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies. He pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour. He is also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College and the author of several books including the recently released: Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is my friend, Dr. Munther Isak, who is a Palestinian pastor, theologian, author, and activist. He has an MA from Westminster Theological Seminary and a PhD from the Oxford Center for Mission Studies. He pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Bait Sehor, both in the West Bank. He's also the academic dean of Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sehor, both in the West Bank. He's also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and he's written several books, including the recently released Christ in the Rubble, Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza. It is an amazing book. I had the opportunity to read an early copy of the book and write

an endorsement, And the last line of my endorsement says this, it is quite simply the most important book of our generation. I truly believe that highly, highly encourage you to check out the book. He will also, Muthra will also be speaking. He was currently on a massive tour speaking, I think every single day for the next like three weeks and his last or two weeks and the last speaking event that he's going to be at is the Exiles in Babylon conference next week in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And if you want to register for that conference, there's still room, go to theologyandtherod.com and you can sign up either attend live or live stream it.

Yeah. I wanted to have Muthur on. This is kind of like an emergency, usually I record an episode and it releases two, three, four, sometimes five weeks later. We just recorded this one, I mean, a couple of days ago, last Sunday. So I had my editors turn this around quickly because of the current situation going on in Israel, Palestine. And so I wanted Muthuron to give us a kind of a real time update from somebody who lives in the West Bank who can tell us a lot about what's going on and how we as the Christian church should think through the situation going on in Gaza in particular, but also the West Bank. So please welcome back to the show, the one only Dr. Muthur. Welcome back to Theology in Arah. I really appreciate you taking time

to have this conversation. Yeah. Thank you, Preston, for having me. I wish again it was in different circumstances. That's an understatement for sure. Yeah. And you're in the States now. You just got here what? Last night and you spoke this morning already? Yeah, just arrived for almost two weeks, speaking tour in the United States, mainly to promote my new book, Christ and the Rubble Faith, the Bible and the genocide in Gaza. I arrived yesterday night to Chicago and spoke today at First Press in Evanston. Tomorrow I tweet in and then from there different places.

Kyle Soria Harvard, Yale, I mean, you're going to some big places, right? David Pacheco Yeah, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Riverside Church and other places. It's going to be intense. Praying for strength, physical, mental, spiritual strength is going to be a new place every day. Do you expect opposition, protests, backlash? Or has there already been some backlash by them hosting you? I've heard some backlash, yes, for sure. I don't know what to expect. It's getting crazy in this country. And so I'm really expecting everything. I don't know. I was, honestly, I was relieved that they let me in at the borders. Who knows what's happening right now in the United States?

It seems anything related to Palestine is being canceled. And I know universities are facing pressure, specifically on this issue right now, on the issue of Palestine. Yet the urgency of the matter, the mandate on us to continue speaking, I can't be silent. And so, I hope it goes well. I hope we reach the new people. I hope new people hear this important message. We'll be praying for you. And I think you're ending the speaking tour at Exiles in Babylon,

right? Is that your last event or...? Yeah, yeah. I'm grateful it worked out when I received the invitation from you to come to the conference. I looked at my schedule and so tried to build it so that I finish in Minneapolis. So I'm excited to be with you. First Exiles and Babylon Conference. And really looking forward to it. Well, I hope you're not too exhausted. I mean, you're speaking, I think every single day for two weeks up until- Yes, and I'll be flying just the night before

speaking in the morning, so it will be good. Okay, okay. Well, I wanted to have you on, and again, thank you so much. I mean, you had a tiny window when you're available. This is where we're recording Sunday afternoon for those who are not tuning in live. Can we go back? We don't need to go back all the way to just, you know, 1917 or 67 or, you know, October 7th.

Well, let's just, let's go back just more recently to the ceasefire that came about, I believe in January. And then as of, I believe a week ago, the ceasefire was broken. And there has been, in no uncertain terms, I mean, a relentless, and I think it's clear from the videos and everything, it's indiscriminate bombing.

People used to debate that, and now unless you just, if you refuse to look at videos online, it's indiscriminate. It's killing, I think we're up to over 200 children that have been killed at least. Close to 700 overall, including 200 children and evacuation, forcible displacement. I think this is a new stage in the genocide in that, and I hope I get the chance also to explain why

it is a genocide, you know, as we speak. But this is a new stage because now clearly I feel Israel wants to, they feel this is an opportunity to implement the Trump plan of emptying Gaza. And so what we see in this stage of the genocide is, you know, relocate, leave Gaza or die. It seems that these are the options right now. I think that's behind the intensity of the bombing in the first 48 hours of when Israel broke the ceasefire, including the killing of children. And now the images we're seeing from Gaza are those of people evacuating.

God knows for how many times they've done this, move from one safe zone to the other, because the bombs clearly hit so-called designated safe zones. We've seen people in tents, tents burning and so on. And now people are leaving. And you wonder where will they go and what's the plan? Is it so much pressure until ultimately the borders open and they are forced to leave? Is this because the crazy thing about Trump's

so-called plan to own Gaza and empty it is that it gives Israel the green light to forcibly displace everyone, ethnic cleansing. They feel now they have an American administration that does not put any red lines. And that's, you know, it feels strange to say as if the previous administration did put some red lines, but clearly now Netanyahu and his team feel they have the green light to do whatever. And so the amount of children killed in the first 24 hours of the bombing was the highest number of children killed in a 24-hour zone since the beginning of the war. So this tells you that now they are in 10. And it's so depressing that we're talking about people in numbers

and in, you know, as if political discourse move and relocate. I mean, just try to imagine being in their shoes. Let's remember this is the month of Ramadan for Muslims. They're fasting. I don't know how they're going to endure. Last week was actually a strong cold wave in Palestine. I mean, it's really hell on earth. There's no other words to describe it. And it feels that the world is content. That's it. No one feels the urgency to stop it. And now that it resumes, God knows what's next. Can you take us back just briefly?

When the ceasefire was established, were you hopeful at that point? Or did you know that it was going to only be in a matter of time until the ceasefire was established, were you hopeful at that point, or did you know that it was gonna only be in a matter of time until the ceasefire is broken? That's, I guess, my first question. The second, I would love to hear your thoughts on how, like who broke the ceasefire? What happened a week ago that now the bombing has continued? Yeah, when the ceasefire happened, it was strange.

We didn't know how to feel because we were definitely relieved that the killing stopped. Yet at the same time, you couldn't tell but wonder, why did it take this long? And also, how long will it last? We knew that ultimately Israel wanted more. They wanted to continue pushing forward. And we knew that ultimately ceasefire is not the goal

because it's been how many years of suffering and displacements for the people of Gaza. Will they build the, will they allow the rebuilding of Gaza? That's a question we ask, is it going to last? And clearly now, two months later, you know, all our fears and suspicions were validated that this will not last. And I don't think, as long as there is not enough pressure on Israel to at least respect the international law, and I wonder if it matters anymore now,

these concepts of international law and human rights, and if there is no accountability for at least killing children in an indiscriminate way, can we hope that it will not resume? And as I said, all of this was validated three days ago, four days ago when the fighting resumed. Israel surprised Hamas. three days ago, four days ago when the fighting resumed. Israel surprised Hamas. I mean, it's clear that they broke the ceasefire,

at least from our perspective. But to be honest, at this stage, does it really matter? As long as we're talking about people being killed in a horrendous way. And I don't know if you've seen the footage from last, I think a day ago or two days ago, of Israel demolishing a cancer hospital in Gaza. This is the only designated, it's a Turkish hospital,

designated for, I mean, Turkey funded, the building of this hospital for treating cancer patients in Gaza. And Israel did not like throw a bomb on it. It demolished it from the bottom. So they planted bombs and demolished it and they pictured it as if celebrating. And you wonder, how is this going to bring the hostages back if that's the goal? You wonder how is this not

clearly an attempt to end life in Gaza? To tell the people of Gaza, you will no longer have hospitals, schools. We know they destroyed all universities. This is clearly a plan to empty Gaza completely. And now that Trump has openly said it, I think Israel feels this is again, quote unquote, an opportunity to go back. We know also that Netanyahu's government coalition would not have lasted if he did not resume the attack. This is, you know, everyone knows this. We also know that, you know, this is possibly a way for Netanyahu to avoid trial in Israel

for corruption. You know, his trial session was postponed yet again because of the war. So it's clearly in Netanyahu's best personal interest and political interest to resume this war. Netanyahu's coalition, and I'm not sure everyone understands this, the politics in Israel is different than the politics in the US. It's not a two-party system. You need to create a coalition from different parties to reach a certain percentage of support within the government, the

Knesset, the parliament, to be in control. And so you have to please almost everyone, every side, and to bring a coalition of several parties. And Netanyahu built his coalition from those on the very, very extreme right, and he's right wing, but there are even, believe it or not, those are even further right, religious Zionists, and the names of Bingfeer and Smutrich. So they are determined for the war to continue.

And more than ever, you're hearing voices within Israel itself of people acknowledging, yes, this is a genocide. We can't allow this to happen, but the right seems to be in full control of the Israeli coalition today to the extent that they are determined, not just on Gaza, we see what's happening in the West Bank. No one is talking about the West Bank, Rastan. In the last month or so, 45,000 people were displaced. 45 or so, 40 to 45,000.

In the West Bank, 45,000. In Jenin, Tulkarem, and it's going on. And you see how are they displaced. They demolish their homes. They went into the camp in Jenin, the refugee camp, and demolished homes. And so people were, you know, they have to go to relocate within the West Bank we're talking.

So they are now implementing a plan to control the majority of the West Bank annexation, meaning that they will take the majority of the West Bank. And let's remember the West Bank with Gaza and East Jerusalem is only 22% of historical Palestine, and now they will annex the majority of the West Bank. So basically what will be left for Palestinians is concentrated areas, concentrated camps, if you wish, blocks, and everything outside is fully controlled. And now part of Israel, Israel has no map for those who don't know, they keep expanding. So they're implementing that plan in the West Bank. That's part of the coalition and resuming the war in Gaza. And as I said, they feel they have the green light from Trump to continue. Oh, I mean, it's hard to even think about how,

I mean, you literally just came from the West Bank like last night. I mean, you literally just came from the West Bank, like, last night. And to come here, we have to bypass many checkpoints. Bethlehem alone, and Bethlehem is probably a suburb of Chicago, if not less. Bethlehem alone has close to 90 checkpoints and gates and blockades. 90. Most of them were added after October 7. The West Bank, we have between 800 to 900 blockade checkpoints and gates added after October 7, which means every movement is controlled. And I kid you not, planning for this tour, I would buy internal flights here, preserve

hotels, everything. And my main fear was how do I get out of Bethlehem? Will I be able to get out of Bethlehem? And then will I be able to cross the borders to Jordan to get here? So I had to leave 24 hours in advance with the hope that, you know, I leave Bethlehem, I need to think of another plan, and then with the hope that the crossing to Jordan is open, you can never rely on that. And so there's nothing you can predict. And sometimes you could wait, I'm not kidding, between six to seven hours on a checkpoint when it's closed. They're creating

an environment in which you can no longer survive with a very simple plan leave. And if things were not clear enough, the settlers have been putting sign boards, you know, the big billboards in the West Bank in Arabic, addressed to Palestinians saying, there is no room for you here, leave. So it's clear what they want. It's clear what they're trying to do. And as I said, as long as no one holds them accountable,

they will continue implementing that plan. What was, just briefly, what was the cause of the breakdown of the ceasefire? Do we know the facts of what happened? Was it, I mean, because depending on who you listen to, it's like, it was Hamas that went back on the agreement. You listen to another source, I might say Israel went back on the agreement.

Do we, is there an agreeable set of facts Hamas that went back on the agreement, you listen to another source that might say Israel went back on the agreement. Is there an agreeable set of facts that we can believe as to why this ceasefire broke down? Honestly, if you follow what was announced at least publicly about the stages and so on, Hamas was moving forward with what they were asked to do. But then I think they couldn't agree on the next phases. And that's when Israel went on with the surprise attack that killed hundreds. I think the important thing here to stress is that there are other ways. And it seems that the Israel backed with the USA now feel that might is the only way that

you need to speak strength. This is, I think, Trump's so-called slogan. One of them is peace through strength. And I think they're trying now to implement that. We will kill more of you. We will destroy more hospitals if you don't return the hostages. And what's really interesting is that on the other front,

they want Ukraine to talk and try diplomacy with Russia, but they don't believe diplomacy should work here. So I'm not really into the details of who break what, but they don't believe diplomacy should work here. So I'm not really into the details of who break what, but what I think happened, I'm pretty sure that Hamas did everything that was required, at least on what was publicized on the stages. But then they couldn't move to the next stage,

which we were hoping will free everyone. I hope everyone's free. Let's be clear. I don't want you to know, no one is happy about hostages kidnapped, children kidnapped. No one deserves to go for such treatment. What was interesting though, and I think this is not something that was mentioned a lot in the discussions, at least in the coverage, there was so much about the state of the Israeli hostages who were released. Some of them looked really frail, lost a lot of weight and so on.

I mean, you feel, I mean, the human side and you can't, but you know, that's wrong. You know, at the same time, no one showed the state of Palestinian prisoners freed, some of whom actually died a few days later. They looked, you know, they, as if they came out of a torture chamber. They looked in a very miserable state. And in fact, a friend of mine who works with Palestinian political prisoners, and even I was surprised by the number, told me that they have what's documented. And this is, when I say documented, that means at least these are the ones that Israel acknowledges.

60, 60 Palestinian prisoners were killed inside Israeli prisons since October 7. 60, close to 60, I think 58, 57. I mean, can you think of that? No one's talking about the Palestinians who are, you know, and notice how the naming is different. Some are hostages, others are terrorists, prisoners, political prisoners. And you know that the vast majority of Palestinians arrested are under administrative detention, meaning there are no charges.

Or there are secret charges that they cannot say publicly. And so they go three months, three months, three months on. So it's not as if the because, you you know, I've read recently the Palestinian ambassador to the UN said that if you go back to since the beginning of 4867 onward, close to 1 million Palestinians were arrested. I mean, all of us are terrorists, come on. So you know that. And you know, again, and no one's talking about the Palestinian children in detention, some of whom were tortured, and it's documented.

So the way people talk about Israelis in detention versus Palestinians is, it reveals a lot about where we are right now and how the perception of the world, again, that have been saying since the beginning of the war that would convince they don't think of Palestinians as equals. I mean, for Trump to say we will own Gaza, and these are his words, own Gaza, that the Palestinians must leave. The only explanation why would someone say such a statement is if he believes in his heart that the Palestinians, the two million Palestinians are not equal human beings.

They are less in dignity. That's why I can own their land and displace them. There's no other explanation for such a statement and the support if it has beyond that. It's either profoundly ignorant or profoundly evil, or probably a blend of both. I mean, when he said that, I immediately thought cynically, I'm like, I didn't know the Palestinians were selling

their land. Like who, I didn't know was up for sale by the people who own the land. Unless we're going to admit that the land that belongs to Palestinians is actually owned by Israel. Do we want to admit that? Well, then that's okay. We can admit that, you know, but there's no, there's no way around it. I mean, I don't want for him to say, I'm going to buy the land. And what's, what's interesting is that two things and, and, and, and me speak about the evangelicals because you ask evangelicals, because if they are against Palestinians living in their own land, you know, and having self determination in their own land, you know, and having self-determination in their own land, because they believe God gave the land to the Jewish people. But if it's Trump owning the land, they have no problem with that, I guess. I don't know.

No one spoke and said, no, Trump, you cannot own Gaza. God gave the land to Israel. The silence was, you know, suspicious. And I wonder also if you've seen the video Trump shared about this plan to turn Gaza into the Riviera of the Middle East because in it there's something fascinating he shows the video of this idea, you know probably AI generated of what will happen to Gaza when he owns it and Trump buildings and so on and in it There is literally, I'll kid you not, a golden statue of Trump, similar to Nabuch Abnassar's one. And yeah, I couldn't tell,

I mean, how more obvious could it, you know, doesn't have to be for the church here to say, this is, this is ridiculous. This is enough. You know, but again, no one did a thing. How have you felt about the American evangelical response to what's been going on? I know that's a big question. American evangelicalism is very big and diverse and lots of denominations, but on the whole, have you still felt, I guess, for lack of better terms, dehumanized from the evangelical church? And avoidedly, I will be general here and I will generalize. And I know it's not fair because there are many evangelicals who are pro-justice. They want peace. There are evangelicals

who advocated with us throughout this war for a ceasefire. But the voices of those who supported this war were so loud. And to say that we felt dehumanized is an understatement. This war has shocked us, revealed to us a lot. In my new book on Gaza, there's a whole chapter on what can be described as Christian responses to the war. And I call the chapter theology of the genocide, and I know that there cannot be a theology of genocide, but somehow there was. And it's not just the evangelicals, but if you have asked, I mean, the evangelicals were the ones who either supported or justified this war predominantly and then there were the silent ones and other traditions were more on the silent camp. But if you want for

those who openly endorsed or even justified the killing, you will have to go to the evangelical camp. Some pastors openly said, let's turn Gaza into a parking lot. Many use the Amalekite analogy. I don't know if your audience understands what that means. That's basically a call to razors to completely, completely kill all Palestinians as a just act of God. And the arguments that were used were baffling to me. Somehow, they would say that the spirit of Amalekites still lives in Arabs and Muslims today, which is rejecting that the Jews are God's chosen people.

And so what this means is that what's happening today has nothing in their mind to do with 1948, the ethnic cleansing of 800,000 Palestinians, the destruction of our towns and villages and the ongoing reality of occupation and so on. But it's because we have the spirit of Amalekites that rejects that Jews are God's chosen people. This is our problem as Palestinians. And somehow we are destined to this, if you read what some were saying, I talk about it in the book. So by virtue of me being Arab-Palestinian, I'm destined to be an enemy of God and the

people of God, and I'm destined to be an enemy of God and the people of God, and I'm destined to be erased. And so they said, as I said, do to them what, remember what Amalekites did. So we've heard it and I always cite the example of a congressman, I think his name is Wartburg, Wartburg, something like that. Interestingly, he used to be an evangelical pastor, went to, I think, Wheaton and another seminary, then turned into a congressman and he was on tape, on tape saying that this was at the height of the famine, that he wouldn't allow a single, you know, he wouldn't spend a single penny on aid that goes to Palestinians. He would not be in favor of that. And that he suggests that we get over with it quickly in the same manner of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So, you know, you have to, now this is not just a pastor,

and we've heard it from pastors. Now this is a congressman from an evangelical background, basically calling for killing two million Palestinians, including the Palestinian Christians in the churches, and citing, by the way, Hiroshima and Nagasaki as good examples, which again baffles me, that you think of the killing of 200,000 people as something to model, a model to imitate, and I can go on and on. And then there was those who justified this war. And as we were pretty much horrified

and disappointed from Christianity, today's coverage, Russell Moore's articles on day one using the just war theory. Actually Russell Moore surprised us. First one of his arguments was the self-defense argument. And I always wonder, all these evangelicals who talk about Israel's right the self-defense argument. And I always wonder, all these evangelicals who talk about Israel's right to self-defense, what do we need to do as Palestinians to be granted that right to defend ourselves? Why is it that only Israel has the right to defend

itself? We were in the land and then they came and took our land, not the other way around. I hope people get this. But Ras Al- Maw does something I think is very dangerous. He says Jesus is Jewish, was Jewish, remains Jewish. And any opposition to the Jewish people is actually opposition to Jesus. And by extension, if we are in Christ, in Jesus, to all Christians. Do you see the logic? So me as a Palestinian, me, I'm a Palestinian pastor. I live in Bethlehem. I'm trying to defend my land, my right to live in my land. This is where I was born. This is where my family is from. If I resist what Israel is doing, I am resisting Jesus and you because you are in Jesus, press them. So the logic is Christians must support Israel regardless, or they will be going against Christ. It shocks me that this is a progressive ethicist. And then the just war theory, and we can talk a lot about the just war theory. I wish, you know, I wish those who cite it at least, you know, implemented literally because what's happening is clearly contradicts what's in the just war theory.

But, you know, 17,000 children killed later. I'm still waiting to hear from Russell Moore to say this is not the justice of God. And so we still have you on record saying this is the justice of God now. This is a just war. And now with this horrible massacre, a genocide by the definition, not my definition, the human rights convention definition, the silent. And I can go on and on about what we've heard from the evangelical community and beyond that, not just the evangelical community. That's why in this war we're shocked. That's why we made so many statements, calls, even calls for repentance. That's why I'm writing the book. Basically, one of the reasons is for sure, you know, never again, must be never again,

not yet again, war to genocide. That's why we have these conventions. That's why we, the human, you know, as humanity, we came together, we wrote these definitions on what a genocide is, what apartheid is, and we said never again, this cannot go on. And now everyone seems to ignore it when it's the Western and their allies who are committing this, but also never again to the church being complicit in mass killing as in the past. And sadly, this is what we're witnessing today. This episode is brought to you by Mitopure by Timeline.

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Real quick, a couple of just announcements. We have about 20 people tuning in. Several questions have come up. Just want you to know I'm going to, we will try to get to those toward the end. So keep, keep asking your questions. I'm keeping a tab on them. Also, I don't have a copy of it, but do you have a copy of your book? Christ in the rubble? You can show the audience or no. I still didn't see my copy, but this is what it looks like. Okay. So it comes out, you can buy it now on Amazon. I think it will ship in a day or two. I was fortunate enough to read an early copy of it and wrote an endorsement for the

book alongside several others. And I forget exactly what I said. You said some good things. Well, I said my last sentence is, this is quite simply the most important book of our generation. And I will, and that's a bold statement. There's hundreds of thousands of books written every year, millions of books, maybe. And I read a lot, you read a lot, Munther. But no, it's, I really do think this is a massive is one of the most important moral crises facing the church today. Just in case somebody says, well, there's conflicts going on all around the world. What about Russia, Ukraine?

What about this? What about that? You know, Yemen. I mean, there's stuff going on in Yemen. There's stuff going on in Somalia. It's just like, so why is this bigger? And I said, the biggest difference, and please correct me if I'm wrong in the comments or if I'm off, but I don't know of another mass slaughtering of innocent

people that is not only aggressively supported by the United States of America, but also, I don't think it would be supported by the United States of America were it not for the massive support of the American evangelical church. The American evangelical church is extremely influential in politics. And if the entire American evangelical church stood up today and we've all said, hey, we're not going to vote for a single candidate that supports this, we're done, you do not have our vote. I think people would probably, I think that might do something.

Obviously that will never happen, but we will not give it another dime. I mean, I don't know how much money comes in from American evangelicals and organizations that end up going to buy bombs and airplanes that are dropped on children. But last time I checked, there's more evangelical, American evangelical support than American Jewish support. I can't

verify that. I read that somewhere that the main backing of Zionism, which is, you know, the ultimate category, is evangelicals, not just American Jews. So I mean, it's- Definitely. No, definitely. And studies and surveys indicate this. Many Pew researchers have indicated that you will be more inclined to support Israel

as a white evangelical than if you are an American Jew. At least this is what the studies say. In terms of money, billions over the years came from evangelical churches to Israel. And again, this is all well documented. And what's interesting is that a lot of this money goes directly to settlements within the West Bank, which are illegal by the international law. But again, clearly because in an evangelical mind, their view of the Bible, who owns the land, their religious beliefs, Trump, anything, they don't care about the international law.

Their religious beliefs are above everything. So they believe something, they will go ahead and support it. Which is interesting because again, you're talking about imposing your religious beliefs on others and bringing it to a political discourse. Today, you have many Trump nominees who clearly say Jews have a biblical right to the land. Again, you have to think, what does that mean? Can you bring this discussion to a political discourse? And can the counter be while Muslims believe Palestinians or Arabs have a Quranic right to the land? And then, you know, we make it a battle between the gods.

I really wonder many times, are you listening to yourselves to the extent that you impose your religious beliefs? And by the way, not just on the millions of Arabs in our region, but also on the Christian Middle Easterns who disagree with you. Yet somehow, and think now there is a letter coming from hundreds of American pastors, thousands, I'm sorry, calling on Trump to annex the West Bank.

And one of the questions, it's very troubling. It's really, it's going to pose an existential threat on me, on my family, on us as Palestinians and Palestinian Christians. Yet one of the things I keep wondering, do they even care to ring the phone and, hey, let's talk to the Christians on the ground in Bethlehem and ask them, what do they think of our interpretation? And clearly they don't. And clearly to them we are nothing. Our perspective doesn't matter and clearly our theology doesn't matter. You know, who are we to tell them what the Bible says? They have the right interpretation in Texas and Kansas.

They can tell us what the Bible says. You know, obviously we're ignorant. We don't know anything about Christianity, you know. And so it's this mindset of supremacy and arrogance that baffles me that please consider that you are putting us your threat, you know, this is posing a threat on our existence. Yet they don't seem to care. And so yes, I agree with you. This is a reality that justified and endorsed by the Bible. The Bible was weaponized to create this mess we live in today in Palestine. And yeah, I can't think of other contexts in which the Bible is used in such an open

way, obvious way, with the support of the Church. Pete There is a history, I guess, right? I mean, we have the Crusades, we have slavery, we have, you know, the rise of the Third Reich in Germany, the Bible, yeah, His. And apartheid in South Africa, that's the one I always compare it to, because, you know, we have so many South African friends. It's very similar. And apartheid in South Africa, it's very similar because it's doctrine of, you know, some people are exceptional, are different, are chosen, entitled, privileged. They can lead, they can govern where others are less, others are inferior. And so there is this, you know, when you think where did this theology of

apartheid come from? And then you go and read and try to understand it. It's with this classification of people into superior and inferior. And to a certain degree, this is what Zionism is. You know, some people are chosen, entitled, privileged. They have promises, they have a covenant. Others are less. That's why I keep saying we're less humans as it, Amalekites, people of Ishmael. You've seen, I quoted, I think, Billy Graham's daughter in the book when she tried to explain what's happening and she says, well, they are the children of Ishmael. That's why everything is happening. Pete I would encourage everybody to check out Munther's book. I mean, I know it's such a volatile topic and you might say like, I don't know what's going on.

I've people on both sides, whatever, just get, and I'm not being paid to say this, like I get nothing out of this, but I read the book, it blew me away. It just, it really is, I think, the most important book of our generation. So get it, read it, and then make up your mind. If you're like, if you do disagree with some things in it, read it, and then make up your mind. If you do disagree with some

things in it, which I'm sure you will, at least provide superior evidence to the contrary. The book is extremely, extremely well researched. I knew it'd be good. I knew it'd be good. I knew it'd be thoughtful. I knew I'd given my trajectory in this conversation. I knew I'd probably agree with it, at least most of it, if not all of it. I was shocked at how heavily researched it was. I mean, I don't know how many footnotes you had, I mean, hundreds of, I mean, goodness, you did not say a single thing

without backing it up with tons of evidence that people can go chase down. So if they're like, I disagree with this point, then go read the source, see where it's wrong, provide a better source, you source, and do that. But you can't just... Yeah, I heavily invested myself into this book. And as you know, since the beginning of the war, I found myself on this platform that

gave me voice. And I thank God. Honestly, I feel that this is divine intervention, if you wish, that all of a sudden I found myself on all the news media and God knows how many webinars and podcasts. I think people were thirsty for an alternative perspective. People realized something is wrong. And then here comes this pastor who placed Jesus in the rubble from Bethlehem and all of a sudden everyone wants to listen. Someone who dared to humanize Palestinians.

And that was the beginning of everything. So when I wrote the book, this was the result of so much investment pouring myself into this because I've been speaking, advocating, touring the world, calling for a ceasefire, talking to politicians, to the media, to church leaders. So I really invested myself, my being in this. And so when I wrote it, I had to make sure it's what research that, you know, you can just discredit it. And really that's my hope, because for too many years we've been simply discredited as Palestinians. I wish people engaged with our position.

Usually our experience was that rather than, the saying rather than engage with the message, kill the messenger. So we've been labeled and I've been labeled. And that's the, you know, many people will just dismiss the book and say, well, he's a Palestinian, he's that, he's that, you know, we have all these labels for everything,

and theology is replacement theology, whatever. And I just say, I wish people engage with what we're saying, show us the contrary to the evidence. As you said, let's have a conversation. And more than ever, we need this conversation, especially as Christians, for the sake of the credibility of our Christian witness. As I say in the book, we need to present Jesus for His beauty, for who He is, the just nature of God, the God of truth, and not just

side with one side and have, you know, our presuppositions or our political allegiances dictate our positions to the extent that you allowed your politics to lead you into dehumanizing millions and millions of people without fully engaging with them. That's it. That's it right there. Yeah, the book is written with blood, sweat and tears and with intellectual precision, but deep passion. I mean, it's an uncomfortable read and it should be. I want to get to some questions here in a second. There's more and more coming in, but I still haven't given you the opportunity because you've used the word genocide. I know that has been a lightning rod. Can you maybe briefly explain what a genocide is and why you would

consider what's going on a genocide? Yeah, no, thank you. I think it's important. It's not just in the title of the book, but whenever I speak now, I know that people will like, why is he using this word? And genocide, as you say, as I explained in the book, is not a term I use lightly. Just recently I was asked by someone, I gave a talk in Bethlehem, and they said, you've used the word genocide, how do you define it or how do you understand it? And I said, it doesn't matter how I define or understand it because genocide has a definition, has a criteria.

And the term was created specifically after the Holocaust and subsequently adopted within what's now known as the genocide convention. And the criteria is, I think, has five or six elements, the killing of members of the group. And you don't have to, you know, it's in whole or in part these elements. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, you know, inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, forcibly transferring the group and so on, or children and measures intended to prevent.

And what's interesting, you know, when you look at these criteria, and before I say that, you know, you have to remember we did not create this criteria. It was not the Palestinians who created it, or you know, it was predominantly the Western world and you lectured us on these criteria. And now that you have mounting evidence and the witness of numerous experts that what Israel has been doing in Gaza is genocidal and fits this definition, I wonder why are you silent, I think.

And you know, we have numerous experts, UN experts. In fact, we have many leading genocide and Holocaust scholars, including Israeli professors like Amos Goldberg, who's a Holocaust and genocide researchers at the Hebrew University. We have others like Ras Segal, Omer Bertov. We have, of course, numerous new N reports, new N experts. We have over 55 scholars of the Holocaust, genocide, and mass violence, who wrote a report, joint report, at the beginning of the war.

And then we have other joint reports by the University Network for Human Rights at Mass Violence who wrote a report, joint report, at the beginning of the war. And then we have other joint reports by the University Network for Human Rights and others, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International. So you get the point. It's not as if I'm the only one, you know, I'm relying on the testimony of experts from every tradition, the professors from universities, the UN reports. And the real question now is, why isn't the world calling it a genocide? For me as a pastor, honestly, my concern is why is the church not calling it a genocide? That's the real question.

The real question is not whether this is a genocide or not. The real question is, given all this evidence, why is the church not calling it a genocide? Is it a choice? Is it to avoid confrontation and speaking truth to power? Or is it because they don't view Palestinians as equal humans so that these human rights regulations don't apply on us? That's the real question that we must engage with, and not whether this is a genocide or not, because the reports are numerous and they are very well written. I think there's a lot of ignorance about what a genocide is. I thought this up until two years ago, before I actually read the 1948 genocide statement, I thought it was like using all the power you possibly can to kill as many people as

you possibly can. So Israel has nuclear weapons. If it was a genocide, they would just drop a bomb, blow up the entire state. Since they haven't done that, people say, well, it's not a genocide. Well, it's like, well, that's not what a genocide is. Yes, that would be, but that's not the only criteria. So I think people are ignorant on what the word actually means. And you're, again, going back, one more time, we'll go back to your book,

but your five or six page explanation of the genocide in your book, where you're citing, as you said, Israeli experts in genocide, many of them, dozens of them, where they all agree this is based on what's going on. Like it's hard to, it was really hard for anybody to read that section and disagree with what you're saying. And just two things about that section. First, you know, if I write it now, there's even more evidence, more reports, more citations,

but more evidence as well. And usually when there is a genocide, the hardest thing to prove is the intent. Usually, you know, the actions happened. I don't think that's the... But even those today who would go to the definition and say, well, yes, these things happened, but not intentionally because there was war

and there was conflict and this happened. I mean, yeah, someone planted these bombs in the hospitals and they were destroyed somehow. Intent is the most difficult thing to prove. And as you've seen in the book, and I rely heavily on the South African case in the International Court of Justice, that was actually not so easy to prove, so hard to prove, I mean, in the case of Gaza, because the Israeli leaders told us exactly what they're doing. They declared their intentions that this is a vengeance campaign.

And they had no hesitation, for example, saying, we will not allow food to enter into Gaza, because you cannot do that but somehow you know it's not as if they're saying it's war it's hard to it's not safe it's hard to get a ceasefire right now because we need to continue trying no no they said no no more electricity no more water no more food so the intent thing was not hard to prove at all in the case of what's happening in Gaza. None of this was accidental. None of this was as if we didn't intend this. Israel still today denies access of food to Gaza, which is another tragic element that no one's

talking about. The scarcity of food in Gaza right now is horrible. All right. Let's get to a few questions here. Let's go way back here. The first question that came up was, many American churches would say you're a promoter of replacement theology. How would you respond to that? You mentioned it in passing that people have said that about you. Maybe first define what replacement theology is and then, Dio, I would love for you to respond to that. Dio Yeah. And for that, I refer you to my first book, The Other Side of the Wall, and this whole chapter on this. I have several issues with that question itself because it tries to put us in or put us in a Western category kind of box

and try to fit us in within that. And I wish people read my expositions because for those who don't know, I'm a Bible teacher. I have a PhD in biblical studies. I've written a lot on these topics. And so go and read my exegesis and tell me where I did go wrong rather than try to throw labels on what we're saying. Replacement theology. I don't want to come

across as trying to avoid the question. Replacement theology is the idea that the church replaced Israel in God's economy of salvation. So as if God was dealing with Israel, Israel said no, and then God didn't know what to do. So he's like, okay, I'll replace Israel with the church. And then God didn't know what to do, so he's like, okay, I'll replace Israel with the church. And, you know, with dispensationalism, what they would say, I don't know how strong dispensation is still, is that it's a pause, you know? A parenthesis. The church is kind of a parenthesis in God's plan. Yes, so it's pause.

He put them on the shelf and then he remembered them later and bring them back. Replacement theology, as they explained, is the idea that no, no, God replaced Israel with the church. I don't think God is in the business of replacing one entity with the other. And if we are going by the, you know, if we're trying to use these categories of God replacing one people group with the other and then go try to understand what happened in Scripture. It's a totally different dynamic because first of all the early church was predominantly Jewish church. So clearly God did not replace or reject a person by virtue of his or her Jewishness. And so the determining factor was whether you embraced Jesus as the Messiah or not. And in the first century or in the times of Paul's ministry or Jesus, the early

church, what was happening then is that the question was how do we deal with the Gentiles that embraced Jesus as the Messiah, as the Son of God, risen Son of God, crucified, and then He's the Messiah of Israel. And Paul's answer was simple. We incorporate them into the story, into the olive tree. They become part of the story. They are grafted into the olive tree. They perceive the nourishment and so on. And they don't even have to go back and do all the live by the law. And so they become part of the story. They are no longer strangers.

They are no longer outside of God's economy. They become part. So in a sense, they become children of Abraham. And that's explicitly what Paul says. In Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile because Jesus is the only offspring of Abraham. And it's in him that the Jew and Gentile meet, they become one, they are heirs to the promises,

they inherit the story, the promises, so on. So this is a different concept of what's being promoted today of replacement or the distinction. And I think it's important when we read the New Testament that we remember that it's not as if it's a story of the church versus the Jew. Because the early discussions in Paul, they viewed all of this within the story of Israel, because Paul thought of the true believers in Christ as continuing the story of Israel rather than leaving the story of Israel.

So a lot of the arguments of Paul, more or less Jewish-Jewish conversations, we are the true Israel. You are not for not believing in Christ. And then the true Israel incorporates people from different tribes, traditions. They become one in Christ. Yet somehow this ethnocentric reading of today becomes, you know, imposes itself on the exegesis of the Western church, our Christ Jesus of the Western church.

And then they read everything within this lens of search versus Israel and the church replaced Israel. And that's not what we have been saying or what we write about as Palestinian Christians, and for that matter, many Christians, traditions from around the world. But again, replacement theology has become an easy slogan that you throw to shut any conversation rather than engage with what the Bible actually says. I 100% agree. I studied replacement theology versus dispensation, all these, and seminary

like 20 years ago, but it's kind of an older, primarily Western evangelical category that it's not like these are the only options. I mean, you know, we have these airtight categories and think that Scripture must fit into one of these or something. I think it just doesn't capture the beautiful unfolding of God's story as it plays out, you know. So, yes. And to be fair, the person asking the question wasn't for himself.

He was saying, people in my churches are saying this. So he was kind of relaying the question. Okay, next question. Do you see a future for Gaza with organizations like Hamas still standing and existing there? This might be the number one political question I get. It's like, okay, yes, killing women and children are bad. Yes, civilians be dying, that's bad all that's we don't celebrate that

But what are you gonna do? They have to get rid of Hamas. That's the number one. Like if Hamas is still there Evil is gonna continue to exist for both Palestinians and Jews. So it's just you got a house again get it rid of Hamas How would you know how I'm sure you've had to deal with that as well. How do you respond to that? It's interesting that I never get the question, do you see a future with Netanyahu still in charge or with the Likud or with Bingvir and Smutrich? It's as if the problem is only with that Palestinian particular group. I don't see any future for anybody with religious extremism. I don't see any future for anybody with theologies and ideologies of exclusion and supremacy.

Let's not try to put the blame only on one group. And the biggest proof is that in the West Bank, Hamas is not in charge, is not in power. And what's the result? Who's in charge? Who's in control? I don't see a future for Gaza with a blockade and occupation. As long as the current status quo is the same, it doesn't matter which political party is in charge, whether it's Hamas or Fatah or a left-wing or whoever, as long as there is occupation, there will be resistance. And the resistance might look different from one form or the other. I follow the ethics of Jesus.

I believe in creative and violent resistance. This is something about Palestinian Christians and about many, many other Palestinians, not just the Palestinian Christians. But the point is, don't expect Palestinians to sit down and expect and accept oppression as the norm and restriction and denial of rights as the norm. You know, I think it was the previous Israeli head of Shabak, and I talk about it in the book. Shabak is the equivalent maybe of, I think, the CIA here or something, the information that, you know, a very, very important department in Israeli security

who said, if I was born in Gaza, I would join Hamas. And he was very, you know, he's trying to maintain the security of Israel. And his point was, we cannot continue to function this way to, you know, with this ideology of militants and so on. We have to solve the problem. And it's Israelis who are saying this. And so, as I said, that's the essence of the problem. And if people are genuine about getting rid of Hamas, as they claim to be, try humanizing the Palestinians and getting rid of the occupation, and then we will stop fighting. And believe me, it's not as if we are born to kill and hate others as no one is born this way. You just want to live in peace and dignity in your homeland. I hope people realize that the Palestinians in Gaza have no other homeland.

And tragically, they were born somewhere else. Most of them were their parents and displaced in 1948. Now they were stuck in refugee camps. Now where will they go? And you see them resisting this idea of being displaced because they've tried it before. And so ultimately, there are now close to what, seven million Palestinians in the land. You can't expect them, the current status quo, as I said, is not sustainable, regardless of who is in charge. And I'm not saying any of this to defend Hamas or, you know, if I

have the choice, if I have to vote or to decide, no, I wouldn't necessarily support Hamas. I wouldn't necessarily support any religious group, to be honest. I think this confusion of religion into political ideologies, we've seen the result. As I said, pinning the problem on Hamas, I think, misses the point completely. Is it right to say, I mean, yeah, you've kind of said it, but Hamas is a byproduct, an inevitable byproduct of years of oppression. So it's the prior oppression that will lead to resistance movements and humans are humans.

So some resistance movements might be nonviolent, probably many will be violent. I tell you what, I live in Idaho. If a neighboring state, say Oregon, all of a sudden came and occupied Boise, Idaho, where I live, and oppressed Boise for over 17 years, put a wall around Boise, told us we weren't allowed to leave, cut off water, electricity. If an outside force made Boise, Idaho into something like Gaza, there would be a massive, very, very violent resistance because Idahoans own 30 guns on average. And it's a very militant spirit. I've got, I know teenagers, friends that walk around with guns on their hips in coffee shops

because they're just ready to fight the bad guy. So this is where it gets really near-sighted. We look at, because it's on the other side of the world and people have a different skin color. We think that like, wow, they do that. They resist, they, you know, are acting violently against Israel. It's like, oh my gosh.

I mean, the American spirit is tremendously militant. If you think they're going to do it, we would do it just as much if that happened to us. And I think it's important. Yeah, I agree because, you know, here you would fight someone if he dresses on your backyard and you're fighting for the right to keep guns to shoot someone who gets into your backyard. I think what you said, there's something important I want to highlight from what you said, there's something important I want to highlight from what you said, because Hamas came to existence in the 80s. And prior to that, Palestinians resisted also with violence. I mean, but it was the political groups were very secular

from left wing, sometimes communist other. And so the concept of armed resistance was not born from Islamic ideology. It was born of this is our right, this is our land, we have to defend it. People took our villages from us and we have to fight to get back to our villages. This was the mentality of Palestinians armed resistance. And then when there was two parties, when Hamas came slowly into existence in the 80s and then in the 90s, the leadership of the Palestinian movement opted to diplomacy and negotiations, and that failed.

And Hamas was from the beginning against that. But the failure of diplomacy, and in particular, stopping the settlements and Oslo not materializing into a Palestinian state, Oslo was led by the secular party, Fatah, is what led to the popularity of Hamas. Because now they were vindicated. They were saying diplomacy won't get us anywhere. Only when we fight, it will get us somewhere.

And today, why is Hamas somehow, why do you find so? Because the other path, whether it's the nonviolence that the civil society promotes and many Palestinian Christians or whether it's the diplomacy of the secular leading party in Ramallah, did not materialize. And so, this is seen as Hamas and the armed resistance is seen as a way, as an alternative to the failed options that Palestinians tried. So again, this is really important to look at the development of these events and development of these resistant movements. And again, it's not as if it's the Islamic ideology

that's behind this violence, because, you know, it's from the very beginning there was armed resistance. And again, I'm not saying any of this to defend or to justify Amaz. And certainly we've seen what happened on October 7th. I cannot support or defend that, but I hope people get the bigger picture from what I'm saying.

Yeah. You've made that very clear. And I think, yeah, people that read into your words, like you're supporting Hamas or something, that's not on you. I think that's on them. A person just commented, says, your book arrived last week. They're on chapter two, and he wants to thank you for writing the book. Another commenter points out, I'm glad he points this out, that one problem is that

many American Christians believe Palestinians and Hamas are the same thing. Do you get that a lot? I mean, Donald Trump has said that he's used the term Palestinian as a slur or like a synonym for a terrorist or something. I mean, do you get so sick and tired of that? That's just so ignorant, if not, I mean, dehumanizing and... Ignorant, offensive, dehumanizing. I'm a proud Palestinian and I'm a Christian. The ignorance is baffling because it's no longer an excuse because there's so much resources available for you. I mean, for goodness sake, just ask AI, who are the Palestinians? You know, resources available for you. I mean, for goodness, just ask AI,

who are the Palestinians? You know, they will tell you. And so confusing all Palestinians with Hamas is, I mean, come on. And again, Hamas is one part of the Palestinian people. It's a choice that some Palestinians have taken. It's a path that they have taken, but it does not represent the majority of Palestinians. We are a very diverse people group with different backgrounds and thinking and affiliations. And by the way, you know, what's really interesting is that at the beginning of the 20th century, the word Palestinian would clearly incorporate Jews. So you could, you would speak of Palestinian Jews and they spoke Arabic.

They were part of the Arabic culture and Arabic movement. And so the word Palestinians have never been an exclusive word as if it's Muslims, but has always been diverse and bringing different today in the area of Nablus and the north, we have Samaritans close to a few hundreds, close to 1,000 Samaritans. They're part of the Palestinian people. And so it's not as if the Palestinians are one ethnicity or one people group. We are diverse in our background. One of the things we lament right now is the fact that the majority of Palestinian Christians live outside. Most of them cannot even visit Palestine.

Israel would not allow them. And so we fear that this, you know, the Palestinian identity will not be this beautiful diversity. And that's why I belong to those in the Christian community that says we will never leave no matter what we are determined to stay and keep, not just a Christian witness to be honest, but it's important. I'm very passionate about this. Those who know me know this is a life calling. But also this concept

of Palestine being a mixture of people and not just this is the Palestine we grew up in. The same person who pointed out the Palestinian Hamas Association, he also said that his sending church, apparently he's maybe a missionary of some sort, threatened stopping their financial support because they supported a ceasefire. And they said that Palestinians have a right to live and prosper. And that's why the sending church threatened to pull their support, which is unfortunate. Another person commented that they didn't realize

that they stopped food delivery and she said that that's absolutely horrifying. Okay, thank you, Dr. Muenther. Can you speak about how to do good to those who hate us, bless those who curse us, and pray for those who persecute us? Citing Luke 6, 27 to 38. That's when sometimes, you know, you remember that as Christians, we don't get to choose

what teachings of Jesus to follow and what teachings of Jesus not to follow. It's really hard these days as a Palestinian pastor to preach on two things, I say. One is hope, and I'm trying. We feel helpless, hopeless in many cases, yet it's a fight to keep the hope and not surrender to despair. And the second is that, how do we love the enemy? What's interesting is that when I speak in Palestine a lot and I do speak, usually that's when I receive a pushback, because people know that I promote violence and that to me this is the ethics of Jesus.

And I always respond, well, first don't blame me, blame Jesus. I follow, I'm a follower of Jesus. And second, I think once we step out of this turmoil we're in, this horrific, horrific reality we're in, we have to find space to consider the alternatives. And this is how I answer the question now. The alternative to loving the enemy is hate, live in hate, live in a desire to revenge. Now, first of all, it's going to kill us from the inside. And second, it's going to lead us not to a cycle of violence, but to a reality in which vengeance

becomes 10 eyes for one eye, 10 teeth for one teeth. It's not an eye for an eye, unfortunately. That's why I always say we don't have conflicts in the world, especially and certainly not in Palestine. We don't have conflicts. We have oppression. So the alternative is we crush and seek revenge. And that never stops. That never creates any peace of mind or life. So we need to step back at a certain point and consider the alternatives. And second, we need to continue seeing the image of God in everyone and not give up on

the idea that we can coexist. And whenever I'm pushed on this issue with a genocide happening, the alternative cannot be that we as Palestinians eliminate the Jews who live in the land. That cannot be the alternative. That cannot be the solution. That cannot be the answer. The answer has to be sharing the land together. I don't want Jews to eliminate us or Israelis to eliminate Palestinians, and I don't want the opposite. As a Christian,

I can't accept the alternative of us crushing them. And so that's how I understand that teaching of Jesus in a political sense. We have to believe and be convinced that the alternative is so toxic, so not just about killing us from the inside, but it's not going to help us ultimately. We have to see the humanity of the other and believe that we can live together one day. If I stop believing that, I might as well pack and leave, and I might as well stop preaching about the God of hope, love, and reconciliation. It's a challenging teaching of Jesus, but it's the commandment. He told us to love the enemy, not to seek revenge and destroy. It's not about sentiments, by the way, but it's about being pragmatic and creating life conditions that allow us to live and share any piece of land we live in. Okay, last question. What actions can a local church in the US take to address the genocide or even the apartheid? Or are there resources you know of that can help us determine the most relevant actions for us to take as a church?

So the resources are available, and I think churches in particular need to begin by looking inwardly. By that I mean, ask the question, the honest question, have we been promoting a theology that erased not just a fellow human being, but our siblings in Christ? Have we been promoting a theology that erased not just a fellow human being, but our siblings in Christ? Have we been teaching that in our churches? So I think that honest self-encounter is needed. And second, when it comes to the resources, they are available. We have now podcasts. We have are available. We have now podcasts. We have lots of videos online. We have many books, my books, other books. We have a wealth of Palestinian theologians, pastors, clergy who have written. And as I said now, we're trying to reach out more with short videos, with podcasts. with short videos, with podcasts. In other words, if you're looking for widening your perspective,

one of my good friends said to evangelicals, usually you have a big heart. If you have a place for Israel, can you make space for the Palestinians as well? And so for that, we have been speaking, We have been speaking and I urge you to amplify the voices of Palestinian Christians, and it will help you widen your perspective. I would also encourage you to reach out to the Christians on the ground. Show empathy, show support. Right now we're struggling to survive back home. And then I hope that this journey leads to the realization of the fact that what's happening in Palestine, whether it's a genocide or everything before that, what's happening in the West Bank, would not be able without the financial support of the United States and the political support of the United States. And these are both things that you can contribute to.

It's your tax money. It is the politicians you vote for. And so if your voices are not heard, things will continue the same. Same status quo will continue. So that's a practical thing. You need to speak to your politicians, you need to make your voices heard. Faith leaders must speak up more than ever about what's happening in Palestine, especially for leaders in the United States,

especially because as I said, it's your money, it's the politicians that you have elected. So that's how I would say you can address this situation. Munther, thank you so much for your time. Yeah, I hope you get some rest this afternoon before you speak again, but thanks for taking time to be on The Old and the Raw. Again, I would encourage people to check out your book, Christ and the Rebel. And do you have, your speaking schedule is on your Instagram page and your Facebook page, is that correct?

Where people, because you're in Chicago now, you're going to be in Yale, Harvard, Notre Dame, New York City, and a couple of churches, so you're kind of all over, so I'm sure people listening might be able to go check you out. And then the Exiles in Babylon Conference. And the Exiles in Babylon Conference! I cannot wait for that. So Muthur is giving a keynote talk and also going to be participating in a breakout session too and highly encourage people to participating in a breakout session too.

I would highly encourage people to go be a part of that. So, thank you, Muthur, for your work. I just can't. I've learned so much from you and just massive respect for what you're doing. And I pray that God would continue to give you strength to keep going. Thank you. Thank you for having me again. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network. Hi, I'm Haven, and as long as I can remember, I have had different curiosities and thoughts and ideas that I like to explore, usually with a girlfriend over a matcha latte. But then when I had kids, I just didn't have the same time that I did before for the one-on-ones that I crave. So I just didn't have the same time that I did before for the one-on-ones that I crave.

So I started Haven the Podcast. It's a safe space for curiosity and conversation. And we talk about everything from relationships to parenting to friendships to even your view of yourself. And we don't have answers or solutions, but I think the power is actually in the questions. So I'd love for you to join me, Haven, the podcast. Hey, so I'm launching a new season on the podcast, The Doctor and the Nurse.

World renowned brain coach, Dr. Daniel Lehmann joins me as a co-host as we dive deep into the mind and the brain of everything high performance. I've been fascinated for years as I've worked with top athletes, high powered CEOs, Hollywood actors, and all high performers and in all types of different fields of how they break through pressure, ignite drive, how they overcome distractions, how they put fear on the bench,

how they tap into flow state and just dominate all these different areas of high performance. So on this season my good friend Dr. Daniel Lehmann will break down what is actually going on in the brain in these different areas and I will give actionable tools to be able to use and apply in your life. So buckle up the doctor and the nurse on the David Nurse Show coming at you.