Theology in the Raw - Christian Anarchism, Voting, the Deep State, the Sham of Democracy, and the Supremacy of the LA Dodgers: Jay Newman

Episode Date: May 27, 2024

Jay is the co-founder/owner of Newman Family BBQ, a top rated BBQ catering company in East Nashville, TN. Jay is also and avid reader and a self-described Christian Anarchist. In this podcast episode (which is rated PG13 due to Jay's colorful tongue), we talk about Christian Anarchism, voting, the deep state, the military industrial complex, why power and money drives everything, why the government is a necessary evil, and many other topics related to politics and Christianity. We also include an addendum discussion on the Los Angelos Dodgers for about 30 minutes for all you baseball fans out there. Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology and Rom. My guest today is my very good friend, Jay Newman. How do I even want to prepare you for this conversation? First of all, Jay Newman, we go way back, at least 10 years ago or so. We've been friends for a while. Jay is the co-founder and owner of Newman Family Barbecue, a barbecue company in Nashville, Tennessee. Please do look him up. He makes some of the best brisket I've ever had in my life and very religious about Jesus in a good way. I know some people say religious in a bad way, but in a good way. And he's very religious about barbecue as well. In fact, he has a whole theology of barbecue that if you hang

out with Jay, he's very happy to tell you about. But Jay is not a formal scholar, but he is one of the sharper thinkers that I know. He's in fact, he's going to hate it. They say this, but when he, when he takes these, when he takes like a, an IQ test, his test comes back, his IQ is, is significantly higher than mine. He's just a natural good thinker, even though he's not like a formal scholar or anything. So I always enjoy talking to Jay and Jay and I have frequent conversations about politics. Jay would be a self-described Christian anarchist. Jay believes, for instance, voting is a sin. Jay has some less than popular views on politics, some of which overlap with mine actually quite a bit. In fact, I, I,

Jane, I, we resonate a lot more with each other's thoughts more than we diverge. But I also like to try to push back on, on some of Jay's thoughts really, because some of his, he might say something that I'm like, ah, that might, I might lean that direction, but let's, let's tease aside a little bit more. So that's what this conversation is. It is a free flowing, unedited, uncut, lengthy bantering between me and my friend about all things related to politics, the deep state, the military industrial complex and why the United States is not an actual democracy. Yes. We be talking about all those things. We also include a, a rather lengthy appendix at the end of

this episode, where we spend about a half hour talking about the Los Angeles Dodgers and baseball. So you're free to listen at it if you want, but we just decided to keep recording and talk about the Dodgers and baseball. So if you're into that sort of thing, you might enjoy that conversation. If you're not into it, then you can just, you know, not listen to it or whatever. So I also do you want to give a little warning up front? Jay, he has a colorful vocabulary. So there are, there are some curse words that were used by Jay in this podcast. So I just, I, I don't police my, my guess language. That's just kind of a policy I have. I also don't use language. And that's also a policy that I have as well as a host. But when I do have people that

do swear on the podcast, I like to at least let people know ahead of time, Hey, this is coming. Just in case you're listening. I've had people emailed me before, you know, saying, Hey, I'm, I was doing the dishes. My five year old was around listening to your podcast and I wish I would have known ahead of time that there was going to be swearing. So I'm letting you know ahead of time that there will be swearing. So honestly though, I think you might be, some of you might be more offended at Jay's

beliefs more than his swearing. So I'll give that trigger warning as well. So anyway, I'm going to stop stalling without further ado. Please welcome back to the show by very good friend. You want it only Jay Newman. Jay, do you remember last time you were on theology in a raw? I do remember. Yeah. It was a couple years more to three. And it's coming up on three years ago. I told you, you were an anarchist. Why title? Okay. So let's give a little backstory. Yeah. So I think I even titled that podcast. I think I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I you know, I think I might be an anarchist. I mean, I definitely got some emails about that, but yeah, it's been a few years, man. We keep having these conversations. I've had a lot of political conversations on my podcast and you don't listen to all my episodes, but you listened to a good deal. So yeah, brought you on to love, love to hear your thinking in the last few years, you're thinking on politics. And we're, as you kind of think about overhear me talking about politics

and stuff, we have offline conversations. So yeah, I got no specific right, like a goal in mind here. Just love the kind of debrief on how Christian should think about our political situation. Yeah, let's wrap. And you've written a book in the meantime on the topic. So I think that we agree, but I'm probably deeper down the well than you're willing to go. And I think that I am increasingly getting pushed to, like I'm not, I'm really trying not to be like a prepper, removed from society, you know, just like solar power off the grid, but like it's pretty tempting. Like it's tempting to like just go that route,

but like, I'm like, no, I'm too wrapped up in society and technology and like, it's just my well, my livelihood is too tied up in it. And so even just I make barbecue, I make barbecue. That's how I make money. And it's like, you would think I don't need all that. But no, I've got to grow my Instagram followers. And I've got, you know, I've got to build my brand and it's like... So it's almost like this social contract. We're willing to give away our privacy and a bit of our autonomy so that we can survive. And he's like, you know you're giving it away. Like I just told you before you hit

record. I just downloaded another app and I just allowed them to give me notifications. It's like one more piece of consent, one more piece of myself I'm giving away, one more piece of my brain space and time. And it's like, man, it's just we are the product. We are the consumer and we are the product. And the more it gets that way, you just want to escape. But the more troubling thing is that government is supposed to, in some ways, ideally, okay, I don't know if it's ever achieved this, but an ideal government is supposed to regulate

these kind of interests for the benefit of the people because there's a general acknowledgement if the people don't flourish, then the society will crumble. Right? I don't know that government has ever fully achieved that, but it's supposed to kind of level the playing field. Right? And it's not doing that. And it hasn't been doing that. And I'm not even sure that it's designed to do that. And so where I am, it's just like, I'm anti-government, aside from my faith. Right.

I just don't see it as aside from your faith. What do you mean? Well, just take the, just if I was a agnostic about God, I would look at the world right now and I would be like, the government's not for me, but they're not serving my interest or my family's interest. So I would already be skeptical of that. So it's easy enough. Now, some people go the other way and say the only solution is the government. The only way we're going to help society is by passing new laws or policies or whatever.

But I see that no, there are interests with more power, more money. I'll never compete with that. And they actually want to take what I have to increase their power and wealth. And most people sense that. Most people sense like there is a sense in our growing sense in our world of like regular folks who are just like, you're taking too much. Like we're willing to give some, you know, because we get something. But it's kind of in the last four or five years or so, definitely since 2020, there's an increasing sense of you're taking too much and I'm not going to give anymore. You know? And so that I'm saying aside from my faith. Now you combine that with what I think is the only biblical political theology. I really like, I know, I know you

hate absolute statements. I know you hate it. I want to, I want to, I want to, why don't, why don't you lay out? How would you, if someone said J in five minutes, what is your political position? How would you describe that? I think the government is always against the people. I think that which government you're talking about all the government, all government, all government, all government, all human government. Uh, and I'm, I'm in line with a lot of, uh, the founding fathers of the United States and saying this. Okay. So all government bends towards corruption, bends towards abuse.

And so the best government is the smallest government, the one that has the most checks and balances, the one that because there's an acknowledgement you need some sort of order and structure. Otherwise, people are going to take advantage of no power, the power gaps, people interest are going to take advantage of that. Right. So you do need something, but it's the best government is the smallest one, the one that's the least one, because it is inherently prone to evil. It's government to make war. It's government to make, who create borders

and make decisions on who can live where and who qualifies as a citizen or who can get a visa. I mean, they're making these decisions that affect human life that is always going to bend towards help, you know, good for some and bad for others. And so inherently government is not for people, even though we say the government for the, that's what we're aiming for, but there is no such thing as government for the people. Speaker 0 4 1 2 3 Can we make a distinction? And this is the, I get this pushback and I'm going to, I'll probably, because I do resonate with a little, just so people know, Jay and I talk all the time offline and have these

conversations and we're going to resonate a lot more than we're not. But I do like to represent pushbacks that I get and say, well, what about this? What about that? Well, that's what I love about you. Bring it. Well, what, what are the biggest pushbacks I get just in light of what you just said is failing to make a distinction between like local people who work for the government versus the kind of national, the, the elites and Congress and Senate and white house and DC and all the corruption that's there. I mean, I think there's most people when you think about Washington, they're going to visit. Yeah. Tons of tons of corruption, power, money, elites, Jeffrey Epstein's, you know, whatever. But low, what

about the stay at home mom that, you know, her husband left her with three kids and she got a job at the DMV. I mean, she's a government employee, right? Is that, is she, you know, she part of the problem, like the you know, the, the national park range or whoever, whoever is still working for the government or even like a local, say a local council person or whatever that really does just want to make their community a better place. Like there has to be room for people like that. Right? I think government's necessary. I mean, I, I, and I think it should be more local, as local as possible, and as small and unobtrusive as possible. But, I mean, I'm not just like everybody.

Look, I mean, listen, you just go watch a Western. In the power gap, people will rise up and take advantage of others. In a world where people are willing to annihilate other people, something has to be in that power gap. So if there's no government, there'd be gangsters and mafia. Somebody would try to... Yeah, exactly. It would be something in its place. Exactly. It will be that way. So, you know, something where you have a voice is better than, yeah, you said the mafia or something or like, you know, I mean, you just go back into ancient times, humans have always worked this way, you get warlords and, or just look at Africa now, you know, certain parts where there is weak government or non-existent government,

you have warlords rise up and something's going to fill that gap. And so I'm not sitting here saying like, Oh, if we got government out of the way, everything would be, you know, utopia or whatever. But yes, as much as you can, I think you should make it local and small and like leave people alone. So when you speak, as best you speak negatively about the government, you're thinking more on the national big picture level, not necessarily. No, I'm definitely an anti-federalist, but I think there just needs to be a general acknowledgement that we are, when I say government is necessary, you're just getting a better bad guy. It's not good.

It's not an inherent good. Government is not an ontological good. It's a better described as a necessary evil. So it's not that I'm saying I'm pro-government. I'm acknowledging it's a better evil than, you know, warlords or the mafia or whatever, you know, chaos. It's better than chaos. There's at least some order to it. But I don't put the pressure on government to be good because I just don't think it's possible. It's not good.

And so people like look at it as like this intrinsic good. And it's like, it's not. And I go back to ninth grade civics class, like the founding fathers all talk like they knew it was that way. You know, this is not good. But because of that, we're going to try to keep it small. We're going to try to keep it local.

And we don't want a king. We want representative government so that people at least have some semblance of a say. And I agree, that's better. That's better. It's still not good. It's not an inherent good. And I agree that's better. That's better. It's still not good. It's not an inherent good. And that's all I'm belaboring the point. Do you think, so yeah, I, you know a lot more about us history and stuff than I do. Do you think that the vision of the founding fathers that the way the American system works now

is a, does it reflect their vision? Is it a departure? Is it a radical departure? If they showed up today, would they be- The Federalists won. Yeah. The Federalists won. Yeah. Alexander Hamilton won. I don't think it's in line with their vision. I think post-Civil War, it departed. Honestly, it didn't. The true Jeffersonian model. I mean, you really want to get extreme. Patrick Henry is one of my favorite, but he was too extreme to ever be mainline. But I mean, he's very much... I love Patrick Henry. Give me liberty or give me death. He had the great one liner. But he never really got the liberty that he was fighting for. And I'm really Baptist.

I'm really Baptist. And there were Baptists in some of the early documents. And separation of church and state. Let's draw a clear line between these two things. And in some ways, it was over and against the concept like a church of England, which I know you've had some guests trying to promote something that making very poor arguments about how the church and state are natural, you know, buddies. And it's like, no, they're the natural enemies. Like they don't go together. So yeah. What are you chuckling about? You know, we had some offline debrief about that. So, okay, let's, let's go. And maybe we can return to that point, but government is a necessary evil, but it could be, it could be more evil or less evil. Let's just, let's just assume

your premise that, okay, it's an ontological, not good thing, but better than the other options, but still bad. It could be worse. So this is where somebody, I mean, the famous line from Martin Luther King, like you can't legislate. I can't legislate. I forget what the exact quote can't legislate somebody to love me or you can't legislate, you know, people to be ethical, but you can stop him from lynching me. And I think that's really important too. Like, like there are better laws and worse laws and more evil and less evil. They could happen. And this would be the argument for if Christians really care about their neighbor, if they

care about the good of the city, if they care about, yeah, being, being, uh, seeking the good, the good and wealth, the other city, Jeremiah 29, um, then we should care about contributing good toward the government, making the government less evil, more good for the sake of loving our neighbors. That's it. That's a really broad way to summarize maybe a counter. Yeah. I mean, but I mean, it's interesting, you know, to invoke MLK is all, you know, it's becoming like there needs to be like a law about like every time MLK is invoked. But like there's context there. Like not everyone agreed with MLK at the time.

There were people who said no, like the Black Panthers or, you know, a nation of Islam, you know, Black Muslims. Like, they're just like, no, the only way is to burn the system down. And of course, I think naively, well then some system will rise in its place. But from their perspective, it's like, well, at least we'll be in charge of that one,

maybe, I mean, I guess that's what every revolutionary thinks, they're like, if I overthrow this one, then we'll run it better, and then they never do run it better. And they're just as corrupt. It's just a different group in power now. And it's, you know, it's an endless cycle of human history. And so I, and that's why I'm not a revolutionary. And I think Jesus wasn't, that's why Jesus was not a zealot, you know, because it's just participating in that cycle of new revolutions and new power groups. And, you know, he was just like, no, I'm doing away with that. And so, you know, MLK is like that.

Yes, that's a good quote, but that government killed him. You know, I mean, you want to go down a conspiracy hole, but I feel very confident that the CIA at least had a hand in. And it wasn't because of the civil rights stuff. It was because he started being anti-Vietnam. So you start messing with the money, that's when they get you. And the money comes from war. And you start messing with the money and they took him out.

And so I'm just like, you know, that's the thing. They're like, okay, you can have your civil rights. We're cool with that. Because in some ways, it's almost like it was a distraction from what they're really doing globally. It's like, no, we're stirring up wars and making, you know, creating huge tax dollar, uh, budgets that are making people rich and justified because we're spreading democracy, which is a farce, but you know,

there it's fine. Civil rights is a distraction, you know, they're like, yeah, fine. Focus on that. As soon as he stopped focusing on that and started focusing on the real thing, they killed him, you know, so it's like people that that's not a good argument for the government. Like it's just like, you know, MLK is not a good argument for the necessity of government because I don't know where I sit. The government killed him. So is that how you said the CIA killed JFK? I mean, I'm like totally convinced.

I'm totally based on what? I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced.

I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced.

I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally convinced. I'm totally really based on what? Oh my gosh, dude. This, there's, there's not enough time, but maybe just give one. I would just say, just so people know you're not just making stuff up. Yeah. Well, I would say the most convincing case is by Robert F Kennedy Kennedy Jr., who almost dispassionately explains the sequence of events that led up to his uncle's and his father's assassinations, and the evidence that was given, and how that could not have been the story of their assassinations. And it's just too much coincidence that they

started being against what we call now the deep state interests are, or the pro-war agenda at the time. And to see the policy change almost immediately when they died. You know, it's like, like JFK wasn't going to send troops into Vietnam. And it's like within months of his assassination, we're all in on Vietnam. You know, and there's a anyway, there's a whole thing, but like Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who whatever you think about him as a candidate for president, he's obviously spent a lot of time researching some something that affected his family deeply. And the evidence is crudity dang compelling that this MLK too, I mean, I think the CIA is like, well, we're in deep now, we already killed a president. You know, what are we not going to kill a civil rights leader? What are we not going to

kill a nominee for president? You know, as like they cross the Rubicon on that. And we still, and we said, we haven't gone back. Like they're willing to do whatever it takes to keep the interests of global manipulation and constant war mongering going. They're willing to do whatever it takes to keep that. That's their meal ticket. You know, you talk about that. So they're incentivized to keep wars going. Military industrial complex and how much power. You can't even put one name on it. You say CIA, but then it's like, well, it's not even really properly the CIA NSA.

Well, those are the ones we know about. There are three letter organizations that we probably never heard of. Like it goes down deep and it's like, I'm not trying to go all Alex, you know, know about. There are three letter organizations that we've probably never heard of. It goes down deep. And it's like, I'm not trying to go all Alex Jones. I think he off the rails, but I think he was onto something that made him crazy. And it's like, you're just being naive if you just dismiss it all. It's all conspiracy. It's just like, no. The least we can say is if you look into it even a little, the government is not for you. They're not for you.

And they're just, they're using you because they know if we don't keep doing commerce and interacting socially, well, there's no more taxes for them to take. And that's their meal ticket. So they wanna keep us happy, keep us going. But like, man, the cracks are starting to show. Society more than ever in my life feels like it's,

it's about to undergo a major shift. That's all I don't know. You know, people are doomsaying and stuff. And it's like, no, things will happen like they always do. But these things go in cycles, you know? Like it does feel like things are about to really fall apart. What's what he based on that? Why does it feel that way? How much everything costs versus how much people make the artificial inflation of the

dollar and the real possibility that the dollar has competition in the global marketplace with new currencies that are being developed. The constant chess pieces of war, no one wants to get into a real war, and yet they're all making these moves that are like way... I mean, my gosh, we don't even blink at $60 billion being sent to Ukraine for the fifth time. You know, when I mean, what's those numbers are this funny money to us, you know, but it's like, that's clearly not sustainable. Like if you just think about your personal budget or any business that

you run, like this, not, it doesn't work. You know, ultimately those things collapse. Somebody explained to me and somebody explained to me, maybe, maybe, you know, this actual figure. So people listening, in fact, check this. I thought I saw somewhere in this incredible source that I can't remember. That sounds so fishy. Trust me. It was a good source, but no, no, do your own research. That 60 billion, 40 billion actually comes back into the mill, the American military industrial complex. Yeah.

No, it's like, it's, it's like a big shell game. Like you got your Raytheon and your Boeing and your Lockheed. Like the money's all going to them. Like because it's like they're incentivized for Ukraine to be destroyed so that these are the American companies that are going to go in and rebuild Ukraine. But they're going to build them and they're going to be in charge of it now. And Ukraine has an abundance of natural resources like super fertile farmland and they're ripe for industry, shipping, worldwide shipping and all this, which is

the whole thing with Crimea, why that's important. But anyway, it's a shell game to take US taxpayer dollars and put them in the pockets of the industrial war complex, like private companies that are getting richer, like Blackstone and, oh my gosh, I mean, listen, if people don't go down the rabbit hole a little bit, then you're just being a sucker. Like you got to go down the rabbit hole a little bit. Like you're getting, you're getting suckered. And that's the thing. It works because somehow we think they're up to our good. somehow we think they're up to our good. Like, I know they're up to no good. Like that should be your entry state

into anything that our government's doing. You should be like, they're up to no good. And I'm suspicious. That should be where you start. Yeah, I'm a hundred percent with you on that. Yeah, I have peek behind that curtain. And I've talked about this on the podcast. I mean, you peek into the military industrial complex, the, the relationship between wars that the United States either enters into or

helps create. The things that we, I keep saying we, the things that the country now called the United States of America is involved in and the financial kickbacks it gets and why we support this war, but oppose this one. And like, you know, yeah, we support Ukraine because we want to help the underdog, you know, and, and they had this tyrant Putin that is trying to take over the world. And if, you know, if we don't help him stop the Ukraine, he's going to conquer, he's going to come back for us. You know, all these things, all these narratives and stuff. It's like, but then we don't talk about the U S backing of the Saudi ongoing genocide toward the Yemenites. I mean, even when I say that, but most people

probably, I gotta mean probably know where Yemen is and I don't know, no clue what you're talking about. Yeah. That doesn't hit the news because well, there's financial gain, you know, being on the side of Saudi Arabia. And if they're like, we want to go, you know, we have an issue with these Yemenites. We're like, yeah, we'll, we'll make money off that, you know, and then we just won't talk about it. And you just go on and on and on and on. I mean, there, there is, I'm rereading Stephen Kingser's book, book, uh, overthrow where he talks about a few of the, I think it's 80 around 80 us back regime, regime changes where we overthrew some kind of usually democratically elected leader. A lot of these were during the cold war would

be suspected. Well, this leader is, you know, pro communist. We need to get rid of him and install a pro Western leader. And, but then it turns out that that pro-Western leader is a tyrant towards his people and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people end up dying because of a pro Western leader that the United States helped install. And this happened over and over and over and over. So yeah, you started looking into that. And then, Speaker 4.1 Well, and it's until they speak out that we start to take them out. I like Goddafi. Oh yeah. Like Obama, everyone's Nobel peace prize winner. He took out Goddafi, like Obama, everyone's Nobel Peace Prize winner. He took out Gaddafi in Libya.

Well, you start going down a little bit of the rabbit hole there and you start looking at some of the speeches Gaddafi was making. Yeah, what were they? I don't know much about that one actually. Well, he was calling out the US empire, and basically he was calling for Arab nations to unite against the US. But he was backed by US interests to gain power, as were the Saudis, as were

all of them. And so, but he was starting to say, Hey, they're you basically he's like, Hey, these guys are using us and the only way that we're going to keep stop them from doing it is the band together. That's oversimplifying what he's saying. But, and obviously this stuff's translated. He's speaking Arabic. I don't, but whatever. Like you're like, okay, obviously he became a threat instead of an asset. And that's how they see him. You're like an asset or you're a threat and there's no middle ground. Are you pro and it's not about our way of life or they hate us for our freedom. It's about money. It's always about money. And it's not about our way of life or they hate us for our freedom. It's about money. It's always about money.

And it's like, I've learned this. You can have your editor bleep me, but there's no other way to say this. But people are totally cool what you do until you fuck with their money. You fuck with their money. It's serious. You know, and that's, that's the, that's what it comes down to. They're like, oh yeah, you have a moral cause. And we're like, ultimately these people don't have, their morality is second to their money.

It's like, okay, you make a good moral case. I understand that. And they'll let you be. You start fucking with their money, assassinations start happening. And that's really all it ever comes down to, you know? And I ain't got no money. I'm not, I'm not a threat to anybody. You know? And I'm just like, you sound like the, what's his Oliver? What's the guy? The Richmond, North Richmond. Oh dude, I know this is gonna, this is gonna

out me in a weird way, but I went and saw, I went and saw him at the Ryman auditorium here in Nashville. He sold that place out. It was so good. He, I think I actually think he's a really good songwriter, but I also realized, wow, I'm not as, there were definitely extremists in the crowd and I'm like, it's a little much for me. Well, what kind of is the Confederate flag or what? Or, well, it wasn't that bad. They probably would have stopped that. But you know, there was a, a fuck Joe Biden chant rang out throughout the rhyming that night for, and he had to like stop his song because

they just heard it was very intense and I'm like oh man. You see that that becomes the other part of it where you're just kind of like they make us choose one of these sides. I'm like man I don't care. I mean I know I am not my disclaimer is I'm not an escapist. I want my feet grounded in the earth. I believe the earth is good. God made it I want my feet grounded in the earth. I believe the earth is good. God made it. And I'm not saying this as an, in an escapist way, but I am just passing through and this is not my home. Now this actual dirt might be my home in the kingdom come. Like I'm maybe, I don't know, like you get into eschatology on that, but I'm saying the way this world works and the way it's run, I'm just trying to get

through it, man. I'm just trying to get to the other side. Well, it's, it's going back to all over Anthony and he was like, everybody knew who he was like two months then kind of disappeared. But that's all social media works. He hasn't, he's doing very well. The phenomenon, the controversy or whatever. Yes. But what's funny is, you know, his song, his song was taken to be kind of like, well, people tried to make it like anti-democrat. And so do you, did you see like the Republicans tried to like capitalize on him? Like, yeah, he's speaking for us. He's like, I'm not speaking for you. You put your elites. You're the same. He came out and said, I'm talking about you too. I thought that was, that was classic. That was great.

Yeah. So it doesn't sound like you're very either. If someone said, okay, Jay, between the Democrats, Republicans, which, which one would you suck? Which one's better? Which one's worse? Trump or Biden? which one's the lesser, the same, now they're the same. They're, they're, they're so little difference that it doesn't matter. There's not worth articulating a difference. Like they are the same, like, you know, you've used zoom out a little bit, they would blur together and you wouldn't even like, it's the same thing. Like it's not, it's a scam. It's a shell game that they have to make us think we have an option that pacifies the public to make you think you had a say, to make you think you had a voice.

It just pacifies you. It keeps you from revolting by thinking you have a choice. So they pacify people by giving you two options that are basically the same and saying, well, you pick and that's a democracy. It's not a democracy. Real quick. What do you mean by same? Cause I mean, people are going to say, whatever, they have completely different views on all kinds of stuff, different policies, different. Give me one example and I'll tell you how they're the same. Give me one policy. I'll tell you how they're the same abortion. Right one policy. I'll tell you how they're the same.

Abortion, right? Where we think that there's a massive difference. Well, even that isn't, isn't Trump kind of fuzzy on that or I don't know. I know, right? But my gosh, he's still like, people won't budge off of him because that's obviously not the real thing. And they'll say, well, he got us a Supreme Court justice as we needed to make it a state's issue or whatever. The target's always moving. And that's the thing, as long as they can keep that target moving.

I mean, the Southern Baptist Convention getting involved with this stuff, I feel like there's a lot of people who feel a little icky about like, they don't even be like, okay, there are people like Russell Moore who are like against Trump from the start. But I'm like, even to say like, well, we got this thing we've been praying for. And now that it plays out, you're like, I'm not sure this is what we wanted. I'm not sure this is what we were advocating for through the 90s and the 2000s. It's not quite what we thought, you know?

And it's like, that's because you're trying to use the government to legislate a morality that it's never gonna be capable of doing. Like you want a political battle, but spiritually you gained no ground. You gained no ground. The church gained no ground. The church took more damage than anything else.

And they always justify it and say, but abortion, but abortion. If you go through every election season, every four years, you're like, well, that's because I'm a single issue voter. If you're even a little wishy washy on abortion, then we can't support you. And I'm like, they gained your power and now you won. And now what? How's the church doing in America? Well, attendance is lower than ever. There's more skepticism than ever. There seems to skepticism than ever. There seems to be a spiritual resurgence in the world. Like there are more people open to metaphysical

realities than ever searching for transcendental interactions. And yet they're not looking to the church for it. Except for Russell Brand, who just got baptized. Did he really? But he did. In the Church of England? It's fascinating. Yeah. Really? I've been following his journey a little bit. I didn't know he had baptized. Oh no. He's a confessing Christian now. Wow. Yeah. It's pretty cool. I'm glad. I'm glad. Isn't he? You can't, I mean, I'm glad he's not in America because he would get phone calls and all the mega church, you know, like not mega church, not

mega church, but I'm thinking specifically like the Joel scenes, whatever they're trying to make him a pastor speaker to, you know, the UK just doesn't play into that. They don't commercialize. Well, I mean, everybody does to some extent, but it's Christian celebrityism isn't nearly as big of a thing over there as is here. So well, I am looking forward to if he's ends up on like one of those UK podcasts, like unbelievable Justin Briarly or something like that. Yeah, unbelievable or that would be interesting. But anyway, all I'm saying is like Boiling down what I'm saying is what I've said many times before The state always weakens the church the church never strengthens the state like There was like that. I remember in like middle school

youth group, there was an illustration. Maybe you had this happen to and your MacArthurite background sounds like it would have worked for that. But like the leader would put a chair in the middle of a circle and it would get like the smallest person in the whole circle.

So they stand on top of the chair and they get the biggest person or vice versa. I said that backwards. say, stand on top of the chair. Then they get the biggest person, or no, vice versa. I said that backwards. The biggest person on top of the chair, and then they get the smallest person down below and said, okay, first you on the chair, try to bring them up. And it's really hard to try to pull someone up on a chair. And then they get the small person, the really strong person in the chair, say, okay, now try to bring them down. And it's like so easy because obviously you got gravity on your side, right? And it's like, that's how sin works.

It's always easier to be pulled down into sin than to pull someone up out of sin. And I think of that now in the terms of the relationship with the church and the state. The state is always going to bring the church down, and the church can never bring the state up. don't Get in bed together. Like it's like it's it's never Advantages for the mission of the church to use the state for anything Hey friends my book exiles the church in the shadow of Empire is out now I am so excited and a bit nervous about the release of this book.

This is a topic I've been thinking about for many, many years, and finally put pen to paper to write out all my thoughts. Specifically, I'm addressing the question, what is a Christian political identity? As members of Christ's global, multi-ethnic, upside-down kingdom scattered across the nations,

how should we as members of that kingdom think through and interact with the various nations that we are living under? So the book is basically a biblical theology of a Christian political identity. We look at the nation of Israel. We look at the exile of Israel. We look at several parts of the New Testament, the life and teaching of Jesus, several passages in the book of Acts, the letters of Paul, do a deep dive into 1 Peter and the book of Revelation, and then explore some contemporary points of application. So I would highly encourage you to check out my book, Exiles, and would love to hear what

you think. Whether you hate the book, love it, or still thinking through it, I'd love to hear what you think by dropping a review on Amazon or or I don't know, post a blog, just, you know, ripping it to shreds. I don't really care. I would love for you to just wrestle with this really important topic in this really volatile political season that we're living in. Okay. What about this? Here's a counter argument that I've been wrestling with. Cause I, again, I resonate with what you're saying. I mean, I wrote a book that said similar things at least. What

about the, what's that book? Dominion, the spider-man, we got the same name as a Tom, Tom Holland, Tom Holland. So not the spider-man Tom Holland, the author Tom Holland. And Jamie Smith talks about this a lot, a lot of political theologians, you know, the, the creators of the gospel because of the church's impact on society throughout history. Therefore we have even concept like, you know, equal worth for men and women, that slavery is immoral, that even the concept of democracy, we can come back to whether you think that we were living in an actual democracy, but the concept itself, you know, all these things are rooted in Christian values that society, at least many Western

societies embrace or say they embrace because of the church's influence. So yeah, the church doesn't change the state, but it's certainly by, this is the argument by engaging the state, let's say maybe even being part of the state on some level, we have helped the world have better values that have embedded themselves into various Western democracies is how the argument might go. What do you think about that? Sure. I mean, I think that's a net positive. I think that the church is being the church. I think that the world that is not the church, the world that is an enemy, as described in the New Testament, but also the world that God gave His Son for, they will see that's better.

We like that. And so, they'll adopt values. I mean, I think values in the Roman Empire shifted between the second century and the fourth century. I'm talking about pre-Constantine, like you even saw values changing. Like, it was not considered a moral good to care for the terminally ill, at least if it was contagious. You know, it's like, that's foolish. Like, no, that like you take care of yourself, you know? But then the Christians started doing it. And there are enough people who had a sister or a mother who got sick and the only people who take care of them were Christians that they're like, no, I think that might be good that they do this, you know? So it's things like that. But it's always the church over

and against the state. It's never the church with the state. It's always like the church is its own entity that is showing a better way. And yes, of course, if the church does that well, then people are going to emulate it. Now, the trick is to not let them use that to gain power for themselves, which is what Constantine did. He said, you know what? People are really starting to... The church is starting to become real, real popular. What if we just took over the church? I just want to point out, you know, you said that the church helped shape values in the Roman empire before Constantine. So they did that without political power because it wasn't until after Constantine, right? When they had political power. So this whole idea of no, having some political power

can be good. The church can use that to produce, you know, good in the world change values. I think you got to keep it away from political power though, is the thing. It's not about changing policies. It's not about changing laws. It's about being a presence in society. It's about changing civilization, you know, and like moving humanity closer to God. The state's never going to do that. Have you read this book? I happen to have it right here. And it's exactly what we're talking about. Oh, Rodney Stark. Yeah, yeah. A long time ago. I need to reread it. It's been 10 years or so.

I mean, I don't even think he's a Christian. I don't think he's a believer. I think he is now. I think he studied in the early church. He might become one. But I mean, he made the case for, I mean, basically, spoiler alert, the rise of Christianity was because that against oppression, they began to love people. They loved each other so well that people found that attractive. I want to be a part of a group that loves each other like that. They influenced the world by being the church. Exactly.

And so they changed the world because the world said, why do they have this and we don't? Why do they have such a tight knit community that would self-sacrifice for one another? And because ultimately, like that's like ingrained in our humanity is a need for belonging and community. You know, where, you know, even if you're like evolutionary, what, yeah, for evolutionarily, I guess is the right word, like we need a tribe where we're biologically predetermined to need to associate. And so, you know, or I don't know if you read Stanley grants, but you know, he wrote the book created for community,

you know, like with that that spiritually, it's in our spiritual DNA to that we, we need to belong to a group of other people. And ultimately, that that group of people, which is the church, is in a community with God, who is a community, three in one. So it's like ingrained in the structure of the universe and in God's very person that we need community. And so when the church is being that, it's very attractive to the world when you're loving each other so well. And especially in circumstances where it's like, nobody cares about me. Nobody's out for me. Nobody wants my good. But man, these people seem to all genuinely want the good of the other over more than their own good. And so, yes, it will change society just by being

the church. But as soon as that starts becoming like, oh, you know what? The state can deliver that. No, they can't. It's a false promise. They're trying to unite us behind these principles or these countries or these arbitrary borders and say, what makes you one are the fact that you were born within these lines that don't exist in nature that just on the map we drew, you know, and it's like those are, that's a false tribe. That's not a real connection, you know? But Jay, if I had the ring, I would use it for good. That was at the exiles conference. That was Brian Zahn's political talk. He built it all

around the ring of power and how even the purest of the pure, the hobbit, even the hobbit, and he even says there was a, there was that glimpse in the book, not in the movie, even the book, when even Sam wise, the purest of the purest, you know, group of people was even started to get a tiny bit of temptation. You know, that's exactly it. And even though I think Tolkien was an Anglican, he, there are some writings, there's some letters where he said he bends towards anarchy. And he clearly, he clarified, I think, it's like, see that you have to do that. Like there's a concept of anarchy, which is just saying I serve no state master versus like chaos in the world and like revolution. And I'm like, no, that's not, Tolkien was not talking

about that kind of anarchy. He's just saying I have no allegiance to date, you know? And I think he was definitely sympathetic towards the concept of Christian anarchy. Um, you know, we've talked about Jacques a little before, Oh, check this book out. I just got this in the mail. I keep showing, I'm here, where all my books are. It's a Leo. He was a Christian anarchist Leo Tolstoy. Yeah. Christianity and patriotism. So I didn't, I didn't even heard of that one. Wow. Halfway through that. Is it good? Um, yeah. I mean, it's weird cause he's describing like a scenario that sounds crazy to me. It was like the, the French, the occasion for writing was that there was some sort of political parade, uh, of an out, uh, of an alliance between the French and the

Russians, which are traditional enemies. I don't know. He uses that as a spinning off point. It was like, basically, it's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, of an out of an Alliance between the French and the Russians, which are traditional enemies. I don't know. He uses that as a spinning off point. It was like, basically he's just like, this is all bullshit. So yeah. Can you tell us about Dorothy day? I barely even knew who she, I mean, I know what she was and everything, but didn't, I didn't mean hardly anything about her until you, in one of our offline conversations, you were, you use her as an example of somebody who did produce a lot of good in society, but was Adam Ali, I think

opposed to like getting involved in the empire directly. Yeah. She was, um, ethically convinced to not vote. She never voted. And she, she was a self-described Christian anarchist. But you're talking about influencing society and changing society for the better. I can't remember the name of it. It's like the Catholic... Workers, the Catholic workers. Some sort of Catholic social thing which helped impoverished youth or orphans or things like that. I'd have to brush up on the actual thing, but it's like it grew to be really influential and big and to where they did actually have a

voice politically because they were seen as a positive in the societies. I think she was from New York. Yeah, I see you put me on the spot and I probably need to verify my facts, but to verify my facts. But, yeah, I mean, but in the concept of, it's not escapism. It's not saying, let the world burn. It's saying, no, I want to make the world better. The state can't do that. So we're going to work. And yes, if the state wants to give us funds, we'll take them. If the state wants to pass laws that help it be easier for us to do what we think is good, let them do it. Let them do it or try to get those laws passed. Yeah. See, I'm maybe, I mean, I think there's a level where you could try to get those laws

passed. That's where this is the part of the debate where people say Wilberforce. So it's like, yeah, well, obviously the only people that could abolish slavery were governments that allowed it to take place in the first place. So I think it was not for a moral good. I think it is because it was actually, the slave trade was no longer being cost effective for the British empire. And I think that's really ultimately why they didn't end slavery. they ended the slave trade. And since they ruled the seas at the time, they were able to stop the trade of slaves, but they didn't end slavery. And that didn't happen for a while longer. So, and I think that, oh, we get to get, we get to put a feather

in our cap morally, this guy Wilberforce won't shut up about it. But it's actually not cost effective anymore. We can actually probably save money. The East India Company, I think, and they're just kind of like, yeah, let's just go ahead and abolish the slave trade. I think too many competitors had arisen. They know, and they, they weren't making, they didn't have the monopoly on the market anymore. So they eliminated the market. Like I hate to be cynical, but that's, that is how things work. It's just, they don't work for altruistic

reasons. People don't pass laws because they're good. They pass them so that they're, they can protect their money. But regardless, regardless, the slave who now is not a slave anymore is like, I don't absolutely whatever, whatever motivation you had, I'm not a slave. Like it's, you know, absolutely. But I just think you just need to temper that when you go say, let's change these laws. Let's understand. Like if you're going to go try to change the law, you have to appeal to their base nature.

Like here's like, if you really want to get a law passed, have to appeal to their base nature. Like, here's, like, if you really want to get a law passed, show them how it's better, how they'll make more money doing this, you know? That's what you should do. Don't appeal to their morality because they're not built for that. They're built for money. You know? So, here's how you can gain more money and more power by doing this thing. And that's...in that way, the church is subversive because we know that true power isn't in money, isn't in political power. True power is in service and self-sacrifice. True power is cruciform. But that's a secret we know that they don't get. And so we will use their own thirst for power and

money against them to do more of God's will in the world. But that has to be the approach. It can't be like, well, obviously this is good. Why wouldn't you want to do something good? They don't. They want to make money and gain more power. So you have to use it. If the church is to influence the state, it is by manipulating them. We must manipulate the state if we're going to, and we must use, we must realize the church is actually more powerful than the state. Like we have a greater authority and a greater power and we can use them. I'm not saying don't use the state, you know, I mean, the arguments always made about the Pax Romana and how that facilitated the spread of the faith throughout the Roman Empire. Yeah, well, I'm here to use and I've been in governments that have

varying degrees of allowance for missionary activity, you know, we're going to use whatever's there. If you're in India, we're going to use your whatever laws you got. If we're in China, we're going to use what you got in America. We're going to use that too, but it can't be any different. I remember you telling me is like the people who understand your thesis about this the most seem to be people with missionary experience. Yeah. Most missionaries don't think why don't you elaborate on that? Why don't you elaborate on that. Why don't you elaborate on that? So if you're, yeah. So going back to my book, exiles and just my whole kind of view of what is a Christian

political identity in the world. Well, I, I often say like my starting point is I am a member of Christ global multi-ethnic kingdom that has been spread or exiled among the nations. That's we asked me, what do you think about immigration? That's my starting point. I mean, I have brothers and sisters in Mexico, in Bolivia, in all of the, you know, like that's, that's my starting point. My primary political identity is in the global kingdom of God. So we don't have, what do you say? What about the, what about our borders? I'm like, say, we don't have borders. What about our troops? We don't have to, we have missionaries. Maybe those are our troops. Like, so even, even, even using the plural, we our, in terms of my global Christian identity as a political identity,

that's my primary starting place. Then I, you know, then I do treat the nation I'm living under just like the Jewish exiles did in Babylon. You know, how know, then I do treat the nation I'm living under just like the Jewish exiles in a Babylon, you know, how, how would this sixth century Jewish exiles feel if there were too many Assyrians coming into Babylon? Yeah. I think they would just have a different, I don't know. Like they'd probably be like, well, how can we feed them? Are they hungry? You know, like, or they wouldn't ask, they would, their, their primary identity, what, what shouldn't have been like Babylonian. It should have been, we've been exiled here. We're, we're seeking to go to the city, but

like, this is not, like you said, this is not our home. It's not a primary identity. All that to say missionaries that I'm talking specifically people living in a, a different cultural context. It's not where they were born in. They, they, they get that. They, they understand naturally what it's like to feel kind of like not quite at home in the country you're living in. And I just think, yeah, when I start talking about living in exile in Babylon, there's a way. Yeah, of course. I mean, and most, most missionaries, when they come back to America, visit America, I think they do. Most of them, at least they are pretty suspicious about political idolatry and the patriotism and just even the way Americans are perceived

around the globe, you know, having lived as you have, I mean, lived in other countries and stuff. It's like, yeah, our reputation is not always the best. You know, people like American Hollywood movies and stuff, but they always kind of like, I, our reputation is not always the best. You know, people like American Hollywood, the movies and stuff, but they always kind of like, I don't know. You guys are always the loudest tourists. You always demanded to get your way and you bring your American values. You just think the whole world should be run. Like it's run in America and it's just not the way this is not true. But right. Yeah. I mean, and I think that it there, I, there's, listen, we're all guilty of different forms of cognitive dissonance. And I actively try to find those in myself to reconcile them

as much as possible because I hate, I hate contradictions. It is telling for people to have this American political ideology and then be very pro-Great Commission, which, you know, and to have this every tribe and nation mentality. And it's like, well, you know, from a missionary perspective, you break it down into people groups, you want to present the gospel to different people groups, and you want to see the gospel flourish into church growth, church planning movements, CPMs, they talk about in unreached groups. Well, many of these unreached groups are illegally crossing our border, which makes it a lot cheaper for us to reach them. are illegally crossing our border, which makes it a lot cheaper for us to reach them.

If you're having a great commission mindset, you would see this as an opportunity. The nations are coming here. And the nations are coming here. You don't have to raise $5,000 a head to go over there. But some of them are bad people, Jay. Aren't we all? That's why they need the gospel. But that's, we missionaries, we have that very ethnocentric assumption. We need to go reach the bad people. It's like, what would the bad people come, and again, I'm saying quote unquote, bad people. They come to your backyard.

We don't like it as much. But yeah, I mean, it's one thing to go to China illegally because you can't say you're there to do mission work, which I mean, come on. I mean, it's like you go for a different reason. But if you're a true disciple of Christ, you're always doing mission work wherever your feet are, you know? So you know, you're just like, well, we expect the threat, but then you want to come home and not have the threat. You know, like, no, like there are antagonistic forces

to the gospel wherever you go. It is a real, like, farce that people think that somehow America is protected from antagonism towards people of faith. And I think that's the essence of this Christian nationalism is to create, like, a safe place to be a Christian. Like there's a place that is built, that is created where it's okay to be a Christian without... When has Christianity ever flourished without opposition? You know, it's like, it never does well. It never does well without opposition. It goes into moralism or, you know, just lackadaisical cultural Christianity, you know. It never does well without opposition. There always has to be. And the thing that we must, I think we need to continue to remind ourselves is, God doesn't need the church to do what

He's doing. God is working in the world to accomplish Him. God is on mission. God is dynamic. God is active. He is working to reconcile His creation to Himself. The church gets to participate. But if the church doesn't participate, it doesn't stop Him. And so he'll use whatever means are necessary. And there are times where it has looked like the state has been aligned with those purposes. You can look in scripture where it's like, Assyria was God's sword or whatever. It looks like on the surface that God is using this. God's going to use whatever. He is actively working to reconcile creation to Himself.

We get to participate. That needs to be our mentality. But that never, our allegiance to a state compromises our ability to participate in God's work. Because it is fundamentally, and this is where I go extreme with it, it is fundamentally blasphemy. You are saying that there is another who can do what God can do.

You're saying there's another entity, a powerful entity in the world who can do what God alone can do. And so back to where you disagree with me, that's where I say voting is a sin. You're giving away your autonomous choice to an entity called the state to accomplish good in the world, which it's never going to be capable of doing. Like voting is saying,

I think this other... You're giving your power away. You're giving your autonomy and authority away. We must surrender only to Christ. We must surrender only to Him and say, your will be done. We give ourselves completely to you. We don't look to another. We only look to you and we trust in your way. However you'll do it. Isn't that a, isn't a false dichotomy. Can't you trust in God and also vote for certain laws, certain people that even if you say they're all basically bad, but some are worse than others. I'm willing to allow for that. Like I'm not going to be dogmatic about that. Oh, but you still call it a sin. So

you would say like, I think it's a sin, but I, I, the way I think the way everybody talks, the way most people do it, I would say the way the vast, how you described it. Sure. I'll, I'll, I'll go for that. But as long... I mean, if you're doing it in a subversive way, like over and against the state, like, I could see that as a possibility, you know. But that's never what happens. Christians get turned into voting blocks for other interests, other powerful entities to serve their own interests, not the interests of the church, other powerful entities to serve their own interests, not the interests of the church, not the interests of the gospel, to serve their own interests. So, you are giving them yourself, you're making yourself a voting bloc to give them power. And they used you,

they used you. And people don't like to acknowledge that they've been suckered. It's humiliating. But we all have been suckered. We've all been suckered by the politicians, by the parties, by the people who made us promises to do what we think is right. And they never do. It never works out. Like, don't give away your power. Like the Holy Spirit has indwelt us, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead now lives in us, and you're going to give that away by voting

for your political candidate? Like we don't need them. We don't need the state to accomplish good in the world. We don't need them. They've convinced us we need them. So it's not voting for you, almost some symbolic gesture. It's an act of allegiance to Christ. Like my actively not voting is a surrender to Christ. It's saying, I do have this vote. I lay it down at the foot of the cross. It's no, I know it's no longer mine. It's something that I surrender like that individual rights and liberty and all that. I say, I lay all that down. I surrender to you as my king. He still just doesn't, I don't know,

still not quite convinced. I hear that. What if Jesus was an actual king? But think of it this way. What if Jesus was an actual king and you lived in a democratic republic and that's where your citizenship lied. And he said, I want you to be a part of my kingdom,

but you must surrender all former allegiances. But what if he was an actual physical King, which I believe he will be? I think he is. I think he is, is, and will be already not. Yeah. But I mean that again, that, that it just, again, seems like a false dichotomy that you can't give your lead. And I think you can't give dual allegiances, but is voting necessarily an allegiance or is it just, I think you have to hold your citizenship loosely. And I think Paul was a good example of this because he was a Roman citizen, but he never went around talking about it. He didn't even bring it up until he needed it for the mission, you know? And he's like, oh, by the way, I

do have this legal document that says you can't kill me. I am legally entitled to appeal to the emperor. And he used that because he knew that the spirit was leading him to get to Rome and that was the way to get to Rome. So, I mean, I'm not saying go renounce your American citizenship and surrender your passport. I'm not saying that at all. But I'm saying the attitude of our heart must be one of surrender. And I think some people that when you call out something that people won't don't want to let go of, then you found an idol, right? It's like the rich young ruler, Jesus told him the one thing, you know, he did all the, he obeyed all the wall. He obeyed the Torah, you know, he did all this. He's like, well, give up your wealth. You couldn't do it. When you find the thing that people won't give

up and you found their idols. And when people say, I can't give up my vote, why not? Well, I don't, I don't think, wait, hold on. I don't think people would say, I don't, maybe if somebody is clutching to their vote in that kind of a dollotrous sense or whatever, then yeah, sure. But I think some people are just like this, my vote can contribute to some good in the world if they, if they, and this is where I would push back. Like if they think that one candidate is clearly less worse than the other, that's where I would push back. Like if they think that one candidate is clearly less worse than the other, that's where I would push back and say, I think you think too highly of people

that I just hang out with different people, maybe down there in the South, man, maybe, maybe that's the difference. I don't know. Yeah. That actually probably all the boys, he is kind of like the south of the north, it's like Texas with mountains, basically your best, but you didn't really articulate what I think your best argument against voting. I said this at excels, by the way, people, I got the question. A question came up. Do you vote to me? And I don't, I don't mind saying my, I don't go out and advertise it just because it's just, sometimes I get enough trouble that it is. I don't need to go searching for trouble. And when you

say you don't vote, some people get really upset, but yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't vote. But I don't think it's a sin to like, I don't, I, I'm not, I could I ever vote in the future. It's a provocative way of saying it to be clear, it's just a way to get people to engage with the idea. It's not like, would you ever vote libertarian? Like if Ron Paul back in the day had a chance at getting being president, who was basically advocating for all the stuff we're talking about, I was a very libertarian. I mean, wouldn't you want to Ron Paul or Rand, instead of all the other

options like I did in those days, I was super on the Ron Paul train and he, I mean, he's, I think open to a lot of things, but like there's still something missing in his theology. You can see that you get to a point with like a libertarianism and run. My affinity for libertarianism is this. I think the government that is least obtrusive is best for the church. Like the church is better able to accomplish its mission with the fewest obstacles. That's what I think. There's always going to be opposition. However, if we had more autonomy as a people, then the church would not be as restricted. I just had a board meeting where we're trying to get this guy from Uganda to come in the United

States to talk about the ministry that we help fund. And it's like basically impossible because of the laws and, you know, it's so locked down. He's not going to get a visa. I mean, I basically just said, guys, we might be wasting our breath here. This guy's not going to get in the U.S. Like, it's so restrictive, you know? And so libertarianism is just like, hey, hey, as long as you do no harm, let people do as they see fit. I would rather government with open borders that says, as long as you're not doing harm, let's have the fewest laws possible. That's going to facilitate the church because the church is subversive by nature. And I think we get that. As big as the church gets, it's still fundamentally kind of an

underground movement and it always will be until the return of Christ is it's an underground movement. Here, here, here's a, how about this? So libertarian and I don't identify as libertarian. I don't either. Well, I resonate with a lot of, one of the biggest things I resonate with is all the stuff I'm gonna talk about is they're very anti American military industrial complex. They're very much always talk about American foreign policy and all the self-interest and all that stuff. So again, in theory, this would never happen because the CIA would take them out. But if you had like a Ron Paul in Washington who drastically cuts military spending, you know, ends the military industrial complex ends up, I would say people would disagree with

you. I would say probably save millions of lives around the world based on us involvement and regime changes and all this stuff. Like, wouldn't that be good? That that's like saving millions of lives of people, in my opinion, if you expose the military industrial complex and actually do something about it. Like I could, you know, I couldn't, could a vote like, here's my question twofold. Could that not be a good vote? And if you say yes, then a lot of other people are going to say, well, that's why I vote here because of abortion. That's why I vote here because of healthcare. That's

why I vote. They're always going to have some moral like, there's always more to it. There's always more to it than just the one good thing that you want to accomplish. There's more that comes with it. I'll give you a, a better, for instance, like I I think probably the thing that will course correct our nation, and maybe even our world the most, would be the elimination of this industrial war complex, you know, where it's just like the, if we could keep these deep state agencies and these warmongering entities like Boeing and Lockheed from basically running all policies, that would be a good, that would be a real good I think.

It wouldn't fix everything, but it would be a reset that is necessary. Well, I actually believe that RFK Jr. would do that. I don't think it's talk. I think they killed his dad. I think they killed his uncle. What's more important, he thinks they did, which means he would be serious about dismantling it. And the way he talked, I'm like, that would be a net good in the world.

And a part of me goes, I could vote for him. There's many things I agree with him about. But I'm like, I could vote for that because I think that is probably the biggest and most important thing happening right now is this constant warmongering because of this deeply entrenched by many decades state that's constantly promoting constant war. And I think he would end that. quick. I have this cause before I forget. So it's not, it's, but when you, when you argue against voting, you seem to do so from more feel a theological standpoint, but now it sounds like it's more pragmatic. Like it sounds almost like I don't vote because at the end of the day, you're not getting it

at the roots. So you're just like, I will say that that's an addendum. I think it's spiritual first. Second, your vote, you don't have a vote. You don't have a vote. Your vote doesn't count for anything. Your vote doesn't mean anything. Your vote is perpetuating an illusion that we're in a democracy. It's like, it's like, let's fit really. You would say, okay, defend the claim that we're in a democracy. It's like, no, it's like, let's be real here. So you would say, okay, defend the claim that we don't live in a democracy. Well, first of all, I'd like to see someone who claims that we do because we don't. But you might say that we live in a republic, a representative republic, right? Okay. So

we get to vote for the people who speak for us and even the most like diehard American patriot would have to admit that the special interests are represented more than the regular voters. So you may vote for a guy to represent you in Congress and yet the special interests are going to get to him and he's going to say, well, I represent them too in their interest, you know, and since they are basically funding him, he's that politician is going to pick them over your interest because no one agrees. We don't all have the same interests. So how does a representative decide which interest to advocate for?

Probably the ones paying him. And that's how it works. That's how the sausage gets made. And that's how it works. That's how the sausage gets made. We're not represented period. So that's not a, how that's not a democracy. So it is a Republic, not a democracy. You'd say, I mean, no, I don't think anyone says that it's democracy and we can get into the Socrates concept of how democracy isn't actually an evil. I mean, you know, the old, uh, democracy is two wolves in a sheep deciding what's for dinner. You know, you hadn't heard that. Yeah, that's a democracy.

Well, but when people say Trump is a threat to democracy, you always hear that they assume that we enter democracy. I mean, people do bluster. Yeah. And people do believe they say it all the time. Yeah. It's just, it's propaganda. Like no one's stopping to think what that means or what it doesn't mean. Like no, I mean, like what democracy are you talking about? You know? So, um, I will say this though. I mean, I do think that as of yet, we do that we have more say than other countries. Now, maybe it's an illusion they've, they've given us, at least in China, you know, you don't have a say in some, in some ways, it might be better to just, there's no pretense,

there's no illusion, we know what the situation is, you're in charge, we're not got it. We know what the situation is. You're in charge. We're not. Got it. And we basically function like that. I think the 2020, 2021 showed us that we basically function like that. But there is some semblance of if you get enough people to raise enough of a fuss, you can get the powers that they don't want that heat. They don't need to sacrifice

the political capital. If you can get enough people being loud enough. So, and that is true in America in a way it's not true in other countries. I mean, do you have like, I mean, I know free speech is a, you know, how, how, how free speech there's laws and regulations and all that stuff. But at the same time, you do have, I mean, few countries where you can have people just openly mock and criticize the leader. And you don't, you know, you get away with that. I'm looking like, you know, like every late night talk show, you know, can make fun of Trump criticize, you know, and like, and that's, and they may, and they get, you know, they're not taken out. Now you start poking, poking the middle chain of industrial complex.

That's what I'm saying. You don't talk to them. Hey friends, if theology in the raw has blessed or challenged you in any significant way, would you consider supporting the show financially? You can do so through patron at patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. All the information is in the show notes. You can support the show for as little as five bucks a month. And in doing so, you get access to all kinds of different premium content. And most of all, you just get access to the theology in the raw community. We have all kinds of awesome chats and messages back and forth. And it just,

it means the world to us that you support the show. As the show has grown, so have all kinds of awesome chats and messages back and forth and it just it means the world to us that you support the show As the show has grown so have all the expenses and all the work that goes into pulling it off So again, if you would like to support the show you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology raw And I just want to thank my The people that are already supporting the show. Thank you so much for keeping this show, not only going, but also thriving. So patreon.com forward slash theology in Iran. Oh, I hear on voting. I've got a buddy. I see if you've ever heard this one. I have a buddy that always votes for the person running against the one who's already in power. He just votes for exchange change of power because for somebody

he says, I would, doesn't like, I think if somebody stays in power, that that ends up getting more and more corrupt. So I'm just going to keep changing voting for change. I agree with that except for, I saw this on Twitter. I can't remember who shared it. I wish I could give credit, but someone said that they think that every president is actually like wants to do what they say. They don't mean to go against their campaign promises. But then they get into the White House and they have the talk where the agency heads all come and talk to them. And they're like, Oh, damn, you know, and then all of a sudden, I mean, like George Bush, like I totally believe George Bush in

2000 when he was running. He was anti-war. He really was. George Bush was? I mean, he sounded like it. Yeah. I believed it. I believed him.

And yet it's almost like he gets into power and then they have to give him the talk. And then 9-11 happens and the whole thing's out the window. And he's like, yeah, do whatever you got to do. We're going to war or whatever. So, but against not the people who attacked us, which is still bizarre to this day. So somehow the public talks themselves into this war. They're like, wait a minute. They're not the ones who attacked us. Why are we going to war with them? It's like still this weird cognitive dissonance. Like it was this sense of somebody's going to pay for what you did to us. And I guess it's you. That's what we did. You know, the

bomb them because they're jealous of our free. It doesn't matter who you vote for. The people in power are the people who don't get elected. Like the people who keep their power are not voted on. And so there are entities and that's where you get this deep state conspiracy kind of stuff. But there's legitimately people who are career in this. They don't get voted on. They get appointed and they go administration after administration after administration. And they're the ones who actually are in power. And that's a part of why I say it doesn't matter who you vote for and the people in power don't change. I just had on, I don't know if you listened to Angela McCardell. She's one of the libertarian

I don't know. You got to listen. It's exactly what she said. She says most of the people in Washington that are controlling the country are, we're not voted on. There's, there's a whole, it was on the deep state. She, she is all, all. So tell me more about democracy. Tell me more about the people in charge aren't voted on, but tell me we're in a democracy. You know, I mean, I mean, it's a, it's a farce man. I just, I don't even want to argue with anyone about that. Like if you think this, you're so disillusioned. I don't know what to tell you. Like it's like, you're trying to tell me the sky is yellow and I'm like, it's clearly blue. Like, what are you talking about? I don't even want to argue It's like you're trying to tell me the sky is yellow.

And I'm like, it's clearly blue. Like, what are you talking about? I don't even wanna argue with you about this. Like, you're living in some sort of false reality that this Alice in Wonderland kind of rabbit hole here, that you're like, what? That's not the world. That's not how things work.

Like, you're so out of touch. Like, you've been're so out of touch. Like you've been sold a line of propaganda and you're like, we got to vote because it's a democracy. It's like, when has anything ever changed from voting? You know, they give you crumbs here and there to keep the illusion going. Unless people think a certain president is clearly way better or the other one's way worse than another one. And when people vote, they keep thinking that they keep thinking it keeps working. We're suckers, man. We're, we're children. We're easy to manipulate.

You know, it's like, I didn't, we keep falling for, we keep falling for the same damn tricks. I don't know why we're this way, but I want out. And I guess for me personally, that's the thing. I don't want to get suckered into a candidate that lets me down again. You know, I'm just like, no, I'm just not going to vote at all. Well, I was, I withdraw from the, okay. Somebody could say, it sounds like you're so negative on this country. Why don't you go move somewhere else? Well, you know, and you'll see that like you have it, you have, you have it a lot better than, than, how could we haven't done it? You know, practical reasons more than any. I mean, honestly, you know, most of the people

I know live in this country. I do know lots of people who live in other countries. I do think that some other countries... Man, I had this experience. We were in Senegal and we were promoting a concert. We were in the back of this truck that had a loudspeaker. We were blaring music, blaring rock and roll, and just throwing flyers out. And I was just commenting. I was like, man, this would not work in the US.

And this Senegalese guy, he says, is this illegal? And I go, yeah, it's like littering, it's like public noise, it's like, there's so many laws we would be breaking right now. He goes, in America, you are not free. We are free. He's like, and then he says, if I want to take a piss, I go take a piss.

Can you do this in America? And I'm like, no, no, you can want to take a piss, I go take a piss. Can you do this in America? And I'm like, no, no, you can't just take a piss in public. He's like, ah, you are not free. We are free. And I'm like, yeah, there's an argument to be made there. There's something to be said about that. And I'm like, this. I'm pretty thankful that urinating in public is not legal.

Yeah, same, same, same. It's insane. I'm just saying there is, there's something to that though, this idea. And the reality is their governments just don't have as much power over their people. So they can't enforce it. It may be illegal. They just can't enforce that in where there are weaker governments. But there is some appeal to me and living in a country that has a weak government. Now you go the other side of that. I mean, like Zimbabwe, I don't know if I'd want to live in Zimbabwe right now. They have a very weak government, but it's chaos. I don't know if I want to go live in chaos. So I'm not, you know, there's a middle ground there. I think, I think you can't, I think you can't. I mean, everything you're saying,

this isn't, it's a false democracy, military industrial complex corruption, blood on and on and on. And you can, you can affirm all of that and still say, but yeah, there are many other countries that are even worse. It's, it's the same kind of system. Here's the problem too, with the go live in another country and you know you have enough friends who live abroad or from other countries that you probably have heard this too. It's like everything America does affects us too. So it's like America is the one country that our policies don't just affect our country like go live in another country.

It's not like you can escape what happened in America. There's nowhere you can move where what happens in America won't affect you. You know? So it's like there's nowhere you can escape this empire. This empire is pervasive. And our empire is not, it's a new kind of empire. We haven't colonized nations. We've colonized economies. So they need us for their money to work. And so we've colonized nations, we've colonized economies. So they need us for their money to work. And so we've colonized them monetarily and all of our policies are going to affect them. And we also, and they know we also have 750 military bases in 80 different countries. So yeah, we haven't colonized them technically, but we, to protect our economic interests.

Right. I mean, that's why we expand our militaries to protect. That's what the constitution actually allows for is to protect the economic interest of the, of the nation. We've just really been liberal with how we apply that. Don't fuck with the money, man. I'm going to, you still have time. I'm going to, I'm going to change. I want to change massive gears, but I'm going to make our next conversation, which is going to be about the Los Angeles Dodgers, an appendix to this episode. So the official conversation has ended. Now, if you're not in the baseball, the Dodgers, then you're free to leave. But I want to talk to Jay online about the Dodgers. I've always wanted to do this.

Actually, I've actually wanted to do a whole podcast episode talking baseball with you. So I have thought about mentioning to you that we should just start a separate podcast where we talk about the, there's not a good Dodgers podcast. Mookie bets. He's got a podcast, Mookie bets. Do I know, but it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not a good Dodgers podcast. Mookie Betts. He's got a podcast, Mookie Betts. Yeah, I know, but it's not a Dodgers specific. It's not a Dodgers, no, no, no. Is there not a-

I mean, like Dodgers fandom. There's not a good one. I've listened to a couple and I'm like, ah, it's pretty lame. But like my football fandom and my college fandom, like there are good podcasts out there for content and discussion. It's not a good Dodgers one. Interesting.

In fact, the only like legit baseball one, I love John Boy John boy, you follow John boy. I don't do any sports podcast. Not on purpose. Well, John boys on mostly social media, his clips and stuff. They do a podcast and stuff too. Dude. He's in crap. He's a Yankees fan, but John boy, it's good content. Okay. It's really good. J O M not, not John. Okay. Okay. I get, I mean, I, I've got a lot of Instagram accounts that have baseball clips and stuff, but yeah. So how are you feeling about this year? I mean, this is for those. And if somebody is still listening and then doesn't really know baseball, doesn't know Dodgers. I mean, the Dodgers team this year has been described as one of, if not the best teams in the history of the sport. Let's start there. Do you think

that that, at least the best lineup in the history? I mean, 27 Yankees is obviously up there. I was going to say like you're talking about offensively for sure. I know our pitching. Yeah. I mean the five through nine hitters aren't holding up their end of that claim right now, but they're starting to a little bit more. I mean, they, they're, I mean, Rojas is, he's been hitting pretty good and a Pa has obviously coming in. might be, Andy Pye's might be good. We're not sure yet. Andy Pye's might be good. Altman is not, you know, he's not doing great. Muncie's hitting around 250, but I expected a few more homers. Yeah. But Kike's on fire right now, but he started off super in a slump. So,

I mean, it's a long baseball season. These things will even out. We'll probably be able to make a better assessment in a couple of months, but as far as best of all time, the way Mookie's playing right now and to have Freddie behind him and then Shohei behind him. And then we'll Smith's batting what? Like three 70, like three, like to have those top four, like, yeah, that's insane. Yeah. I mean, that's insane. Freddy isn't even Freddy isn't even at the top of his game right now. And he's still in slumping for Freddy. He's hitting like two. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a swim for him. So are you overall, I mean, so the bottom of the lineup hasn't done well, but they're, they're picking it up. Top of the lineup couldn't really be doing much better. The pitching. I mean, Yamamoto, I mean, if you take away that first

game where he gave up five runs in the first inning, his era would be like his era was like one 50 or something. I mean, you tell me what team right now has a better one, two than glass. Now Yamamoto, which are the two pitchers we picked up. I don't know that anybody don't know if I, uh, yeah. I, I haven't watched, I've watched some Yamamoto, but it might just more to see the stats. So he, you know, seven, you gave up seven hits and over and runs last time. Was it, was he throwing good? Did you see him? Like did he, was he making it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it?

Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he throw it? Did he know, seven, gave up seven hits, nowhere in runs last time. Was it, was he throwing good? Did you see him? Like, did he look, was he making, does he make hitters like kind of silly? Like I've seen him do that. And it's like, man, it's when he's on, he had more swinging this the game before last. But like, he's starting to get a feel for the major league zone. Um, yeah, it's back to back outings of six innings, nowhere in runs like back to back. And I'm like, he's looking good, man. He's looking good. Glass now looks dominant.

Yeah, he does. The only thing you worry about him is injury. You worry like he's going to, you know, how long can he keep this up? Um, Bueller's going to be back. I'm not sure about Bueller. I sent you the Vox. What do you, what do you think? I mean, so Bueller is a 98, 99, 100 mile an hour fastball guy pre surgery. You know, you build up to that over time. I mean, every pitcher in spring training is five, 10 miles an hour below what they're going to be after they get there. They're clocking them at like 94, I think in the, in the, in minor minor leagues. No, he'll hit, he'll hit 98. Really? With they stretch them out. Yeah. If they stretch them out, I'm not worried about that. If he's

hitting 94, I haven't seen the stats, but if he's hitting 94 now after this slow buildup, they give him, they stretch him out a little bit. He'll get back. So do you think when he's, when he's rehabbing and he has what, like six or seven starts in the minor leagues, are you saying he's, he's not, he's not trying to dominate he's cause he's still, he was giving up several runs. He was going to hit around a bit. I mean not, yeah, that doesn't matter. Okay. He's just trying to hit his spots and they're working on specific pitches. Yeah. They're working on specific. Like it's like, if you're working,

if you're in the minors and you're working on your fastball, well every hitter knows a fastball is coming because they know you're working on your fastball. Well, it's like, I don't care. I'm working on my fastball. Right. Okay. Okay. So I'm not super concerned about that. I will say though that several years ago, probably about 10 years ago, when Chad and Hugo was a affiliate, AA affiliate of the Dodgers, I think it wasn't very long that they were, but Clayton Kershaw got sent on a rehab assignment and I went down, drove down and I saw him, I saw him pitch.

Oh my gosh. He was making those kids look silly. It was, it was amazing. I was sitting right behind her plate and you started knees are buckling on that carriage ball. They didn't know what, they never seen anything like that. So I mean, when you are legitimately dominant, I think, yeah. And you know, what's weird to me is we don't think about this, but there is a significant chasm between AAA and the majors.

Like, we think it's just like, Oh, it's probably pretty close. But like you look at like Jackson holiday, this other day, like one or two hits or something. He struggled in the majors, but he was raking in AAA. They called him up. He got like two hits in like 12 games and they sent him back down. Well, guess what he started doing? Raking again. He's killing AAA pitching, but he can't hit major league.

So he's in that weird gray area, but which is much wider than we think, you know? It's not just one step. I mean, think about it. Yeah. Think about if we sent James Altman down to AAA. Yeah, you'd crush it. You know, he's struggling in the majors,

but he'd go to AAA and he'd be triple A. You know, he's struggling in the majors, but he'd go to triple A and he'd be dominant probably, you know, it's like, man, there's just weird kind of it makes you appreciate those truly dominant, like what Mookie's doing right now. Gosh. Yeah. It makes you really appreciate that. Mookie is just, I mean, even little things like laying off a one, two slider that's two inches outside. Like he'll, he just won't swing like sweet. You know, he went to streak like, like, I don't know how many games without a strikeout like that. That's when you know, you, you, you can't put them on cause you have show hay next. So you have to pitch to them. But if, but if you throw a ball, he's not going to swing, you throw a strike. He's doesn't

matter what it is. He's going to get barrel on it. I mean, that's, I was like starting to be like, Oh, he's not doing as well. Cause he's not hitting home runs. Like he started off with, but then you like look at his OPS is still like 11 something. And I'm like, Oh okay. So PS is way up his slugging is off the charts. He may not be hit homers, but he's hitting gap shots, doubles, whatever. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, he's it's just like, he can't, if he keeps this up even a little, he's MVP. I mean, even if he hits like, he ends up hitting like three 30, which is probably realistic. I mean, I, you know, it's going to the God of the days and guys are hitting over three 50. I mean, except for that Rios

dude. But I mean, three 30 is our new three fit. Like back in our day when you had Tony Gwynn in three 80 and Wade Boggs in three 75, that's just, those days are gone. Right? I mean, I feel like three, three 30 is a new three 60. So I think so. I don't know why, but I mean, they want more power numbers. That's why they want more slugging. And so you obviously swing harder means you have less time for contact. If you take a little off your swing, the percentage of contact goes up and, but people aren't trying to be contact hitters anymore. And that's mostly why you're not seeing that. But I mean, Freddie Freeman says his approach is always to hit doubles. He's like, I'm just

trying to hit the ball hard and gap. So I don't, he's like, I've never tried to hit home runs. Yeah. You know? Yeah. The left center gap, that kind of inside out swing hitting the ball middle end and he hits it to the left center. And his swing is so goofy. I would never teach people to swing how he swings. It almost looks like a half golf. I don't like his, okay. People always rave about a swing. I don't, I same thing. I don't, it's like a chop. No, you don't teach. That's not, it's a weird, it works for him, but you don't teach that swing. Like that's, uh, his hands are high. The bat has a bat path that kind of goes down and around. It works for him. So like obviously working, but versus like Shohei,

But versus like Shohei, Shohei is the new swing model. Like he swings so hard and yet somehow makes so much contact because his bat path is level. The way he turns his hips, his bat path is level. So his bat's in the strike zone longer because of his bat path. But he swings with such ferocity. Like it's just that's traditionally been like discouraged because that's like a guaranteed strikeout. He doesn't strike out that much. I mean, he strikes out, but I mean, he doesn't strike out. He's not like Joey Gallo or anything. At least he's not like your, your boy Gallo, man. He isn't, he's an all or nothing. I think

he's got more home runs and singles. He's like, he's a big guy too. He puts his whole body into it, but he strikes out so much show. Hey, don't strike out that much. He's got a, I saw him strike out. He does. He does. And he like, he got looking more than swinging. I think he took three. He did. He had a strike out on three pitches where three strikes and he has swing in a single one. They were there. I think he's going to hit 40 homers this year. I think he's going to warm up in the summer. I think what he's got seven homers now in April. Um, when he's going to hit 40 homers this year, I think he's going to hit 40 homers this year. I think he's going to hit 40 homers this year. I think he's going to hit 40 homers this year. I think he's going to hit 40 homers this year. I think he's going to hit 40 homers this year. I think he's going to hit 40 homers this year. I think he's going to warm up in the summer. I think what he's got seven homers now

April. Um, what's seven, seven times six. That's 42 homers. If he's, if he had seven homers every month, he's at over 40 homers. Well, we're, we're, we're five weeks, five, almost six weeks in. We're, we're more than six of the way we started. Yeah. I think he'll, he didn't, he actually didn't hit as many homers so far as I thought he would, but yeah, he'll that'll, that'll pick up. But I'm, I'm, he has, he does swing hard, but even he's gotten a bunch of two strike singles where they'll throw him a nasty pitch and he just reaches out and smacks it, you

know? Yeah. Well, yeah. He hits it like 115 miles an hour because it gets to the field or so fast that he doesn't have time to stretch it to 119.2 that single that almost took out the right. Yeah. Straight to the right field. Unbelievable. And it's like, yeah, it got there. So it got to the right field or so fast. You wonder if he's going to get thrown at it first. I, the kids want to be like show. Hey, they don't want to be like Freddie. Yeah. I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not,

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I chips. And I'm just like totally different approaches to batting, but the kids like show. Hey, man, the kids, the kids want to be like show. Hey, they don't want to be like Freddie. Yeah. And he's such a good dude, man. He's just such a, I know there's so such a spotlight on, I mean, such a cultural icon. And I think he's, he's the perfect person for it, man. He's, he's just, just has a likable face even, you know, like you see him in the dugout talker. He, he told me that, uh, he was going and, uh, he went to go ask the outman. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were talking about a pitch and, uh, out minute hit a home run on a pitch. So, hey, and, uh, show, he was asking him and you could see like, outman was doing this, like mimicking the rotation of the pitch, man, it was the same pitch in the same spot like five batters later show hey hit it off the park too he's like but he mentally prepared for that you know it wasn't just like oh I got up there and won hard and it went far he's like no he was

mentally like prepared for what was about to get thrown to him and he took advantage of it as like yeah that's why I advantage of it. And it's like, yeah, that's why I love baseball. It's not, it's, it would be kind of a boring game if it wasn't for the chess match. Yeah. It's like, if it was just like, who's the bigger athlete, you know, it's not, you gotta out, thank your opponent. So much that goes into it. And if you haven't played, I get, I totally get why it could be boring, you know, but just the pitching every bat. I know there's like, you know, you have several, yeah, it's a slow, you know, an app that's a slow thing to watch. It's not like soccer or football, but I mean, there's just so much going into it. So much going into every what

pitch throw where to put it. I did this guy hit it last time? Where are the holes in his swing? Where is he struggling? There's, there's just so much going into every single pitch that it's just hard to kind of see if you don't know the, the behind the scenes game, you know? Yeah, man. I, I've been most excited about Will Smith. I mean, I expect them to be a two 82 90 hitter, but gosh, he's up. I mean, this is the best season of his life. So he is that good. I I've always been shocked at how low his average is compared

to when you watch him hit the guy, he doesn't get cheated. He he's got a great eye. He he's going to get better on the ball. He's a tough out, which I'm shocked that his averages and pass has been like two 60 or whatever. I'm like, he's a 300 hitter, but it's showing this year. I mean, yeah, well he 300 hitter, but it's showing this year. I mean, yeah. Well, he went and got that 10 year contract and you know, some people play down after they get their money, but like he's playing better than ever.

Like he's living up to it. And I'm like, okay, I guess they're made a statement. Like Will Smith is our catcher. Like these guys, Dalton rushing and Diego Cartaya, which are two of our top five prospects or catchers. They're like, they're going to move to another position or we're going to flip them for a pitcher or something.

Yeah. You know, but that's what that's the best thing is that we have a really talented roster now. But like we have the pipeline, like we're going to be good for a while. And like I was talking to a guy who's a Cubs fan the other day, and I'm like, Hey, I'm happy Michael Bush is playing so great. You know, he's I mean, he's great. But I'm like, we just we didn't have room for him.

Yeah. You know, it's like the Dodgers are so good that they're they're facilitating major leaguers for other teams. Like it's because it's like they get their first pick and then yeah, we have way, we have more major leaguers that we have a surplus of major leaguers and so they got to go somewhere. You know, so Michael Bush, we actually flipped him for a younger prospect, really top pitching prospect, but he's only 19. So he may not turn. I was wondering who we got from. So, okay. Yeah. He's a flame thrower drafted out of high school. Like really good prospect, but young and could go anyway. But basically they reset the clock. They're like, okay, here's a finished product.

We'll trade you for a prospect that needs work, you know, and we'll work on them. But basically they reset the clock. Bush wasn't doing that great with the Dodgers. I mean, they gave him some playing time and he did okay. Right? I mean, I know, but he was ready. It was clear that he was ready. And I wonder though, if we would have traded Lux instead of Bush, I don't know, but I think that we thought Lux was the better prospect. He's our golden boy, but he's not been doing it right now. So he's the one I'm hoping figures it out. But you know, I ever since Dave Roberts

has been the manager, there's been a pattern right around June, end of June, July, we get hot. Like it doesn't even matter how April, May, early June goes's a lot of people that are like, I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this.

I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this.

I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this.

I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to, I know I've gotten in the rhythm here. I know how this is going to work, but it is it's championship or bust. And I'm trying to mitigate that a bit in my mind and my mind is like, I'm going of like, well, I know I've gotten in the rhythm here. I know how this is going to work, but it is it's championship or bust. And I'm trying to mitigate that a bit in my mind. I'm like, well, it doesn't sound like championship this year or bust. Like we're kind of set for a few years, but it better. It's like, I need two championships in the next six seasons for this to feel like, otherwise we'll feel like we're underachieving. Do you agree? Yeah. Like it'll feel like underachieving if we don't get two world series in the next

six years. That's the, I don't know, arbitrary line I made, but we don't want a hundred games last year. And then we added Shaleo Donnie and that Matt. I know, I know. That's what I'm like. I, we were stacked last year and, and drop that sweat October, man. I feel like, do you feel like the hard thing with the baseball schedule is I feel like it's with the team, like the Dodgers, it's 162 warmup games for the real thing because anything can happen come October 1st. And like, even now I feel like, man, don't even risk injuries. Yeah. So, you know, I know Will Smith sits every second, third game or something and rest his knees. And that's probably smart. You know, it's like, cause we wrapped the other day,

barring some weird miracle or tons of injuries, the Dodgers are going to win the division. Like that's, that's just not like they're going to the playoffs. Like I, I think that's probably what the Braves though, man, they're talking about stacked. Those guys are stacked. I mean, they're very good. They're very good Is there a light up is probably, I mean, is it as stat wise there on par with Dodgers? Maybe we've got a couple of superstars and maybe, well, so do they though. Acuna is not hitting like he did last year, but he's getting on base and still stealing base. Marcelo Zuna, I think, is leading the league in Homer's and he's up there in average. I don't, I don't think that'll last. I just don't think he's that player. We have enough of a sample size that for his career that I just don't think he's

that guy. He'll hit 30 home runs. Well, for sure this year. Yeah. I think he'll for sure hit 30 homers. Riley. Maybe who's the other guy to switch? I like, I like their lineup. I like Austin Riley. I like a, yeah. Matt Olson doesn't have the power numbers yet, but he'll probably still be really good. They're pitching stuff. I got a, I got a buddy who's a brace fan and we're talking about pitchers and stuff. And I'm like, he's like, dude, max freed. He's a Dodger. And I'm like, you think, I mean, I, I see, he goes, oh yeah, everyone knows he's like all the Braves fans know he loves the

Dodgers. He grew up a huge Dodger fan. Yeah. And he always plays so amazingly well at Dodger stadium. Like his numbers are insane at Dodger stadium, but, um, you know, he's a free agent after this year. Oh, you think the Dodgers will try it out. And so yeah, yeah, they think he's like, this is last year at the Braves. That's what my buddy was saying. And I was like, but I don't, we would not sign Max Fried and Walker Bueller. I don't think who's also a free agent after this year. And I'm like, we'd probably be picking between Fried and Bueller's. I don't know what we would do there, but, um, and then Shohei's going to pitch next year.

Dustin may should be back, right? I mean, if, yeah, no, we're going to, we're going to have a rotation, man. Um, Kershaw may this is last season. I just think he, I hope he gets a appropriate swan song that that's actually my biggest goal for this season as a Dodger fan, my biggest Dodger fan goal is to see him hit 3000 strikeouts, see him keep his career ERA below 2.5 and for him to have post-season success. That's like, like everything else is like this year is only the beginning. So like, I don't feel like all my chips are in on this year. Like if we don't win it,

because we got all these guys for the next several years, all of our best players are under multi-year contracts. But Shaw, this could be it for him. And I want to see him get those career milestones. Like it's a big deal. Like there's not been another Dodger in my lifetime. Like Herschel, like he's probably the best Dodger since I've been born. For sure. Pitcher all around. I mean, yeah, yeah. I think I was it. I wasn't falling baseball in his glory days back when he was hitting under two ERA, like five years in a row, like this that streak. Yeah. I mean, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a,

he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, Kershaw probably should have won the Cy Young that year. What was the guy? He was with the Mets and then went to the Blue Jays or vice versa. I can't remember his name now. He won, you know, I was with the Mets. He won the Cy Young and you look back at that over Kershaw and you look at their stats, you're like, what was everyone thinking?

I cannot think of his name. That's how forgettable he is. I can't think of this guy's name. It's not Jacob deGrom. No, it's before deGrom. I can't think of his name. But like, you like go back and you're looking and you're like, what? He had one season. It was really good. And people, voter fatigue is a real thing. You don't want to keep voting for the same guy. So the voters are like, well, we voted for Kershaw the last three years. You know, it's just like voter fatigue. So he could have had easily five, I think so. Yeah. He's not that he's what? 36. I mean, that's not young, but is it like, why? No, but he, he started earlier than,

so it's his arm is his arm just kind of getting worn it's like, it's like, I think it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like,

it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like,. So is it like he's, he's retiring soon because his arm was just worn out? Probably. I mean, he'd never had surgery in his life until this off season. So it's entirely possible that they fixed some shit and he's going to get that last burst. I don't know. We'll see. That's what I want. He's got 50 strikeouts to go to hit 3000. Like that's really my thing. I want to see that because that's exclusive company. I don't think there's 20, I think there's fewer than 23,000 strikeout guys. Those are guys that pitch for like 40 years or something back in the olden days with like

3000 is, I mean, he's a first ballot Hall of Famer anyway. I mean, that's not, he doesn't need that, but it's a huge accomplishment. Yeah. To say that 3000 strikeouts. There's a couple, like Verlanders hit 3000, Scherzer hit 3000, but they're more strikeout power pitchers than Kershaw has been. His ERA is insane.

I think he has the lowest ERA in Major League Hitchhiker. Kershaw? Yeah, I need to double check it, but I think he has the lowest ERA for a career. The problem is he go back in like the dead ball era and you get these weird stats at like, well, this is right. I think since the, in the, in the, yeah, since not counting that, I think it's at like 2.4 is his career. ERA, something like that. And that's what I'm saying.

I just don't want him to ruin that. Thanks again for listening to this rambling episode and appreciate Jay for being on the podcast to talk about all kinds of interesting things. in that. Thanks again for listening to this rambling episode and appreciate Jay for being on the podcast to talk about all kinds of interesting things. So we'll see you next time on theology and raw. You