Theology in the Raw - Discipling GenZ in Our Cultural Moment: Dr. Kara Powell

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

Dr. Kara Powell, PhD, is the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute (FYI), the founder of the TENx10 Collaboration, and the Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary (see fulleryouthinstitute.org). Named by Christianity Today as one of “50 Women to Watch”, Kara speaks regularly at national parenting and leadership conferences, and is the author or co-author of a number of books including the recently released: Future-Focused Church Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology Nirvana. My guest today is Dr. Kara Powell, who is the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute and the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Seminary. She was named by Christianity Today as one of 50 women to watch. Kara speaks regularly at national parenting and leadership conferences and is the author or co-author of a number of books, including her recently released book, Future Focused Church. This conversation is all about the intersection between our unique cultural moment and Gen Z in terms of Christian discipleship. Kara is always just a lively conversational partner and incredibly wise when it comes to all things related to Gen Z and Christianity. So please

welcome back to the show, the one and only Dr. Kara Powell. Kara, welcome back to Theology of Rob. We were talking offline for a while and I forgot to hit record. I was like, we already get into the good stuff. So you are an expert on Gen Z and the intersection between Gen Z and our current cultural moment and stuff. And I've been, this is what I just, I'll just say what I said to you offline. Yeah. Culture has shifted radically. I mean, has there ever been such a quick radical shift in culture from pre-internet, post-internet? It's just like we are living in completely different worlds. And yet, it seems like in some church contexts, not all, maybe most, maybe not even most. The model of youth ministry in some places hasn't changed a bit since 1983. Like, well, this worked in 83, you know, and we're

doing the same thing. And it's like, I just had the question, like, is that, not that we just morph with where culture's going, but man, we're just, we're dealing with a generation of humans that are just very different than any generation we've tried to minister to. So I don't, that this is kind of my rolling question. Like, is that an accurate way of framing things? I mean, how would you frame our cultural moment when it comes to Gen Z?

Yeah, great question. And way to like, throw a really big ball toward me here. I was like using baseball imagery, like, wow, and way to like throw a really big ball toward me here. I was using baseball imagery like, wow, this is a great pitch to hit, Preston. So thank you for throwing it. And I think we could just talk for the whole podcast, just about this question. So we'll see.

But well, first off, let me talk a little bit about what we know about young people. On the one hand, our research at the Full Youth Institute shows that at a very core level, they're wrestling with the same questions that young people, by and large, at least in recent generations, have also wrestled with. And we call those three big questions of identity, belonging, and purpose. Who am I? Where do I fit? And what difference can I make? So, you know, these are three core questions that you and I ask ourselves, Preston, just as humans. And, you know, they tend to be especially

poignant in times of transition. And adolescence and young adulthood is like constant transition. So those are like, rolling boil questions for young people, whereas they're more at a low simmer for you and me. What is unique about this generation? That's another question that we have wrestled with at Fuller and we've landed on three adjectives. So I started with the same core questions, identity, belonging and purpose, but what's unique about them,

we define Gen Z through three primary adjectives. This generation is anxious. When we look at what we're seeing with mental health, across the board with generations, but especially with young people, I think it's fair to say there's unprecedented anxiety, stress, depression, even suicidal thoughts with young people. So they're anxious. Secondly, they're adaptive. They are so creative. They are so entrepreneurial. They are so passionate.

Largely because of technology, they're exposed to so many needs and opportunities in our world and they wanna make a difference. They wanna respond to those. So they're anxious, they're adaptive, and then they're diverse. This generation is the most ethnically and culturally diverse generation we've seen in

the US. In 2020, in the midst of everything that happened in 2020 in our nation, according to US Census, we also crossed the line in 2020 where half of those under 18 are young people of color. And that percentage is just continuing to grow. So this generation is anxious, adaptive, and diverse. So I'll pause there, because I actually, my next block of thought relates to, OK, then what does youth ministry need to look like today?

But I wanted to first have us talk about this generation. Thoughts or follow-up questions? Yeah. When you said anxious, my first question is why? I've read a lot of Jonathan Haidt. And social media is at least one culprit. Is it just come down to that? Is it glued to a screen, and that's just causing anxiety?

Or can you unpack why this generation is so anxious? Yeah, thank you for asking that follow-up question. My best answer is we don't fully know. It's pretty tough to pinpoint one causational answer, but there certainly is a lot of evidence that technology, while in some ways it helps young people in their quest for identity, belonging, and purpose, you and I are having this conversation because of technology. People are listening or watching it because of technology. So of course, there's a lot of positive purposes

with technology, but technology does increase our feelings of missing out, our FOMO, so to speak. I'll reveal, I graduated from high school in 1987. Preston, do you want to reveal your graduation year? I'm 94. I'm 94. Oh my gosh. I figured you were younger. I didn't know you were that much younger than me.

When I graduated in 1987, if I wasn't invited to a party as a high school student, a Friday night party, I may be heard about it on Monday. Whereas young people today, they see that party that they're not invited to unfolding on real time on their devices. So it is pretty interesting when you look at the correlation, again, not causation, but correlation between cell phones, smartphones becoming ubiquitous, very common, and an increase in mental health risk behaviors.

So part of what's interesting is once cell phones, smartphones especially became very common, some risk behaviors in adolescents decreased. So you know, yes, I'm glad to get to explain this. Premarital sex is going down a bit. Drinking of drugs is going down a bit. Really, those risk behaviors you tend to do with other people are decreasing. The risk behaviors that are more you in your room by yourself, anxiety, stress, depression, those are the ones that are increasing. So certainly, it seems like cell phones are a big factor,

but let me name just a couple others. Also how we have parents of young people is certainly in the mix. Well, we've been so well-intentioned, but in a lot of ways, parents of young people have been so focused on protecting this generation that there are some who think, and I think there's some truth here, that this young people haven't really developed the muscles of resilience

and grit in the same way. Of course, there's also brain chemistry that's a part of this. Just like our hearts can get out of sorts and need medical interventions. My mom had cataract surgery on her eye today. She needed a medical intervention. Sometimes anxiety, depression, it's literally neurological and we need a medical intervention. And then I'll just point to maybe a fourth correlation. We've looked at technology,

we've looked at how young people are parenting, we've looked at brain. And then there's just also young people's busyness and lack of adult support. So, Alyssa D'Amour has done a lot of work on young people's depression and stress and she recommends that young people have 25% of their time unscheduled and there's not a lot of young people who have that. And so there's this press in young people's lives for schedule and Then you know we as adults we're often not supporting young people in ways that they need so that contributes So there's no one factor. It's kind of a constellation of factors. Are you are you are you in agreement with?

Jonathan Heights the anxious generation. I I'm a big fan. I just I mean the doubles with Jonathan Heights, the anxious generation. Yeah. I'm a big fan. I just, I mean, the most, I mean, oversimplified gist is we have overly protected our kids from the real world, the embodied world. And that's, as you said, is withheld them from building resilience, understanding conflict,

real life situations. And we have under-protected them from the online world. And that should be completely flipped. And I mean, anecdotally, and even through studies and stuff, it just seems to make complete sense. Yeah. No, I think there's a lot of strong evidence supporting his theories and his recommendations. And I think part of what encourages me about that book, Preston, is one, how many people are reading it and talking about it.

Like, I can't remember a book about young people that has gotten so much attention, both in faith communities and in communities that don't have a faith grounding. So that's really encouraging. And then I think the second thing that's really encouraging is that schools are doing experiments. That's part of what Jonathan recommends. And I thought, you know, our youngest is a freshman in college now. So I spent a lot of years being a parent of a middle school and high schooler. And I thought, there's no way schools

are gonna be able to move forward on this, but they are. And there's a lot of schools doing experiments with checking phones in at the beginning of the day, or at least putting them in one space in the classroom, et cetera. So I'll just say one of the things that fascinated me about Height's work is, like you said, he really emphasizes the importance of the kind of risk that we used to experience when we were playing outdoors and exploring the neighborhood and all that. And I'm married to an Eagle Scout.

And so he's introduced me to camping and backpacking over the years. I say that I introduced Dave to a good hotel concierge and he introduced me to a lot of backpacking. But our three kids, aged 18, 22 me to a lot of backpacking. But our three kids, age 18, 22 and 24, they love backpacking. Like it's really become a thing in our family. They invite their friends to come. We do at least one trip a year. And I happened to be rereading Jonathan's book the day after we got back from our last backpacking trip. And I

thought, you know what, I think that's what our kids, pretty suburban, we were cautious with technology, but we had a lot of boundaries, et cetera. I think backpacking for them feels risky, and it is, and that's part of what draws them to it. So yes, let's figure out more ways that kids can have that kind of exploration instead of online exploration.

We did a lot of backpacking too. Not so much when they got older, but as kids, we went on a, gosh, we took our young kids. They were probably eight to 14. We did like a four day, 30 mile in the wilderness where you saw like one other person in the hole. I mean, but we're jumping in ice cold, awkward blue mountain lakes and we're hearing wolves in the background, elk howling, and we're doing something just physically strenuous. And the endorphins that are released when you do that, they're not, we're not,

we're offline for four days at least. Yeah, it was so good. Yeah. And let me just say, I'm a daughter of two attorneys, so neither you nor I are recommending reckless behavior by any means. But yeah, what are the right risks that adults can take with young people, whether it's in our own family or other young people that we're mentoring?

And Hyde talks about helmets when you're riding bicycles are a good form of safety. Seat belts while you're driving, these a good form of safety. Seat belts while you're driving, these are good kinds of safety. But let your kid walk to the store that's a mile away and buy a candy bar when they're 10 or 12, which is unheard. People are like,

they're gonna get scooped up by a white van within seconds. And he's like, they're actually not. Like statistically, they're not. They could get struck by lightning and they could get kidnapped. Those are both possibilities. But when you protect them from that possibility, you're actually doing more harm in the long run.

But that's so counterintuitive because you and I, both Gen Xers, we grew up in the milk carton generation, right? When you saw kids, they were kidnapped on milk cartons. I think Hyde even talks about this. And we saw it every time I would have a bowl of cereal in the morning, I'm like, kids are just getting snatched off the street like crazy. Snatched up everywhere.

Yeah, totally. When I parent, I'm not gonna let my kids go out of the house. Totally, totally, yeah. My 18 year old was home for spring break recently and we watched a movie together and there was a scene that involved an ice cream truck. And I said, Jessica, do you even know what an ice cream truck is?

She's like, yeah, I've done it a couple of times. She's like, but ice cream trucks were like this big, scary, don't go near an ice cream truck or you'll get abducted. That was what she learned as an elementary school person. Whereas for me and maybe even you, you youngster, you, when I was in elementary school and heard ice cream truck, it's like, mom, dad, can I have some change? I want to go catch it.

It was such a big deal. Not at all scary, just a matter of convincing parents for a little bit, a few quarters. So yes, yes. We perhaps, one of my life bunches is balance is something we swing through on our way to the other extreme. And I think with our well intention, boy, as parents and guardians, step parents, we've been well intentioned, but yes,

have we swung too far to being too overprotective. Do you see that changing? So you said like cell phones in schools and stuff, people are actually starting to explore how we can do better at that. Do you see the hyper safety-ism among parents? Is that starting to change or is it? Yeah, I don't know that I can comment on that Preston because I'm not quite as dialed into

what that would look like, especially with elementary school parents. I'm more surprised and encouraged by the number of schools in the start of fall 24, the school year that we're in currently that made an announcement. I think it was often a pretty rushed announcement that, hey, we're gonna do something different with cell phones. And I think more than anything else that was because of Jonathan Heights work.

That's good, good. Let's go back to our big question. So you laid out the framework. Maybe just have you expand on just intersection Yeah. Let's go back to our big question. So you laid out the framework. Yes. Yeah. Maybe just have you expand on just the intersection between our very unique cultural moment and this next generation that's coming into it. So I've mentioned the Fuller Youth Institute

that I'm the executive director of. And one of our main initiatives right now is the 10 by 10 collaboration, which is a very exciting collaboration of over 160 denominations and organizations. It's very ethnically diverse, ecumenically diverse. It's mainline evangelical, Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, all saying in the spirit of 10 by 10, we want to see 10 million teenagers have a faith that matters in the next 10 years, in the spirit of John 10, 10, where Jesus talks about the abundant life that comes from

following Him. And so over the last couple of years, the 10 by 10 leadership team, advisors, and then really all 160 partners at our last summit in October, we asked the very question that you asked, like, what does faith formation look like with young people? And we looked at research, we looked at scripture, of course, many of us were or are practitioners, so we got super practical. And we actually landed on five drivers

in our faith formation strategy. And what I think you'll notice, Preston, is that none of these are like revolutionary new, but the implementation is what needs to look different with this generation. So the first one, and we make it first for a reason, is that faith is shared by caring, trusted, Jesus-centered adults. And somebody asked me recently, how would you summarize all the research that the Full Youth InSuit has done in one sentence? And I said, okay, in one sentence, it's that,

you know, the most important part of an adolescent's faith formation is that they are being invested in by caring, trusted, Jesus-centered adults. Adults, not peers. Not peers. Peers are important for that sense of belonging, but ultimately when you look at the best research on long-term faith outcomes, it's about an older adult accompanying, that's a wonderful word that Pope Francis has introduced into Catholicism, and I think we can certainly use as Protestants. It's about adults accompanying young people

in their life and faith journeys. So it's what Paul says in 1 Thessalians 2.8, I was delighted to share with you, not just the gospel, but my very life. And so part of what we wanna say to every adult, parent, non-parent, grandparent, mentor, neighbor, is let's build into young people. And I actually have a theory, Preston, that almost every teenager, I won't say every,

but almost every teenager in the US is known by a Christian adult. There's a neighbor, there's an aunt, there's somebody at their church, a teacher, it's a coach, et cetera. And if we could really mobilize adults to know how to share their faith with young people, just think what that would do. So that's the first. So these are non-parental adults you're saying? Obviously parents.

Non-parental adults, yes. For the sake, yes. I mean, we want parents to share their faith also. So not to the exclusion, but actually families is a different one of the drivers. I'll get there in a sec. So it starts with that. The second thing, the second faith driver is that faith is internalized by young people through spiritual practices and learning. And we think both are really important. And I'll tell you, this

generation, I mean, when we look at where are the bright spots in this generation, it's really exciting to see this generation want to, I'll say, blatantly worship God. You know, somebody asked me recently about like the Seeker Sensitive Movement, and I just don't even hear talk about that anymore. You know, this idea from a couple decades ago that we want church to not feel like church. We want it to feel like you're going to a theater or something you're used to. And I'll tell you, this generation, they want church to feel like church. Like, they want to worship. They're more open to spirituality. Pew just put out some research about that. They're more open to spirituality. So they don't want subtle spirituality. They want

blatant spirituality. And I think part of what we're seeing on college campuses, colleges are using the word revival. Of course, at Asbury a couple years ago, what they call, I think, the outpouring there at Asbury, but other college campuses are seeing, you know, young people want to worship, want to pray, want to study scripture, want to repent, etc. And then that needs to be paired with learning. So I think often there's a tendency to equate discipleship with a class. If we can just get kids to sit through a class 12 weeks in a row, then we've discipled them.

Discipleship is a binder. And again, balance is something we swing through on our way to the other extreme. So I think we can be tempted to say, oh, well, learning's not important at all. It's all about experience. And we wanna say, no, learning is important along with experience.

I'll just say John Mark Comer back to spiritual practices, the way that young people are flocking to John Mark Comer is a fascinating example of how spiritual practices are connecting. And then the third is That faith is practiced through service and justice. So You know that young people again they they're like I said earlier, they're adaptive So the way that young people care about what's going on the world know about what's going on in the world and want to do

Something even if that's something that's posting on social media. But a lot of young people want to do more than that. They want to raise money. They want to reach out to the city or government officials like they're starting nonprofits. So this is a very active generation. And then I'll just quickly hit the last two. So we've covered the first three, basically adult sharing, you know, spiritual practices and learning and then service and justice. But then the last two are families. So you asked about parents earlier and yes, parents, guardians,

caregivers, you know, that families are intentional about the way that they practice and talk about faith. And so, you know, that's part of what 10 by 10 is trying to do and many other orgs are trying to do is equip parents and step-parents to know how to do that. And then lastly, and this is actually what our most recent book is most about, is this last one, is that the entire church is prioritizing adolescents,

or prioritizing young people in their culture, in their decisions and the way they use their resources that a church is saying, you know, our hope is that young people are in a church's top five priorities. And we actually, we did some research recently, the Full Youth Institute did, that sadly indicated that of the senior pastors we surveyeded only one third said that young people were in their top five priorities, which was lower than we were hoping, especially,

I'll just say these were senior pastors responding to a survey from the Fuller Youth Institute. So if anything, it's gonna be senior pastors who see the word youth and think, oh, I wanna, so if it's anything, that sample is probably biased to score a little bit higher than average of senior pastors in prioritizing young people. And still that sample said only a third of them is young people with their top five priorities. So we have a ways to go in that last one.

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Kairosclassroom.com. Click on the book a free trial lesson button and pick a 30 minute time slot that is convenient for you. It's 100% free, no excuses. And it's a great way to meet a teacher and gain a better understanding of how easy, convenient, and fun learning with Kairos will be. What does that look like for a church to prioritize the next generation? I mean, they have a youth group, they hire a youth pastor, they might announce summer

camp when it comes up, maybe even show a video after summer camp, how many people, you know, is it just that or is it like, what are some other things churches can do? So I'm glad you mentioned those, because I would say none of those are what we mean. Here we go. Yeah. Karen, the raw you, you know, you asked earlier, you said something about, you know, with youth group in 1983, I think you said, and I think a lot, a lot of what we've tried to do is perpetuate youth group in the 80s and 90s, because we as adults, we were impacted by youth group in the 80s and 90s. And so we're now trying to perpetuate that. And this group, they want something different.

So the first thing I would say is please listen to your young people and ask them, what does it mean to prioritize you? When do you feel prioritized? Don't have assumptions. And I'll give you two churches. One, I'll start with the church that didn't do this, and then I'll share about the church that did do this. So the church that didn't do this,

they came to us because they had started a young adult worship service. And, cause that's what they thought young adults wanted, 20 something 20, this basically youth group 2.0. And so they started this and came to us and they said, Gosh, young adults are just not coming to this. And so we asked them, well, what adults did you listen to before you launched this new initiative? And they got kind of sheepish and weren't really able to identify much listening that they had done.

And so we said, well, let's pause and why don't you start listening to young adults? They listened to young adults and what the 20 somethings told them was, honestly, the last thing they wanted is to be off in a room on their own, you know, at a different time than the rest of the church. What they most wanted is older mentors.

They wanted, architects wanted an older architect. Stay at home parents wanted to be around stay at home parents. Young marrieds wanted to be around people who were a little bit older and can speak into that. And so the church wisely said, okay, if we're gonna prioritize young adults, then it means that because we listen to them, we're not going to keep doing the separate young adult thing. We're going to emphasize,

you know, mentoring. And so they invested more energy in mentoring and that paid off so much more fruit. Now, in another church, it might be exactly the opposite. Please don't hear this lesson as young adult ministry equals intergenerational mentoring. Not necessarily. I think it often does. But what's important is to listen to your young adults. So another church here in Los Angeles, actually, it's a church of maybe about 200, 300. And they were feeling like they weren't prioritizing young people enough. And so, they deployed a pastor and an elder to do a couple of focus groups with young people, with teenagers. And they asked them questions like, when do you feel prioritized? When do you feel supported? When has this church really

made a difference in your life? And what the young people said, the teenager said was, we love it when adults in the church show up to our stuff, when they show up to our games, when they show up to our plays, when they're sitting in the stands. And so this, yeah, wow is right. Yeah, isn't that great that the young people were able to share that? And so, so the pastor and the elder, they thought, well, this is something we can do. And so they worked with church leadership and they created a Google Doc where where it started with youth ministry volunteers anything they knew about a kid's schedule they put into the Google Doc so other youth ministry volunteers could show up that

went well enough that was an experiment on the edges that went well enough that they said actually let's make this part of our overall church. So now they have a public process where any parent or step-parent, any adult, any kid can let the church know what's happening that they want people to show up to, a soccer game, an Eagle Scout ceremony, whatever it might be. And not only does the church have that information,

they announce it every Sunday. They put up a slide and say, here are, you know, our kids events for the next two weeks. And so, the youth pastor is the one who told me about this. And he was saying, you know, so I went to this 16-year-old's soccer game, because I'm the youth pastor, I know her parents, etc. But who else is there but an 81 year old who saw the slide and thought, I wanna go cheer her on and so showed up. And what's beautiful about that example Preston, okay, again, they listen to young people.

Then now they're talking about young people every Sunday, every Sunday, young people are being mentioned. And then they often they'll show a picture from last week's soccer game or whatever. And so, like, young people are just part of the fabric of this church more because that's how they're prioritizing it. They're saying, we're going to show up and we're going to announce it every week. So you know, it usually involves, prioritization usually involves your resources, right?

So your time, your energy, your money. That more of that is being devoted to young people. So I would say that's kind of the commonality. I think I would say across all contexts is there's resources being invested. But what that looks like is gonna be different church to church. It might be a separate youth group. It might be, no, our kids, you know, what teenagers want and what is actually best for them is they're more involved in the worship service than ever.

And you know, we're really featuring them in the worship service. So. Yeah. What I like about that too is it kind of, for lack of a better term, decentralizes their concept of church when you're talking about things going on in people's natural rhythm of life throughout the week, and that the church is heavily wrapped up into that, that it's not just this thing we do on Sunday. Sundays for 90 minutes. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. But again, I mean, I've said this

like three times, but I'll just say it a fourth. It emerged from listening to young people and that, you know, when what we talk about in future focused church, one of the early steps is how important it is to listen. Do you, when you say listen, is there, I'm drawing here on just anecdotal experience that with young people, if you ask them to kind of stand up and share their thoughts or whatever, like you're not going to get a lot of feedback or you'll get feedback from a select kind of person. But I always say like anonymous feedback, like make sure there's, make sure there's no like barriers to preventing people from being honest. You know, am I going to get in trouble?

Is my name on this? Am I going to get called into the pastor's office if I say something off? But like you do it and like get, do something anonymous and see what the feedback is. I, I do a lot of Q and A's around controversial topics. And I noticed when it's anonymous, Oh man, you get some really honest, sometimes like a little too honest, you know, pushback or questions, but that's what I, that's what we want. We want to know what, what are you actually thinking about right now? I think that's a really great suggestion, Preston, and especially given how young people don't trust institutions and adults these days.

So, you know, that's a great way to, to give young people more openness to really share what they're thinking. I think I'd probably make name optional because there might be some cases where, you know, one of the things we talk about in the discipline of practical theology is you want a thicker description of something. And so, sure, people can do it anonymously, but if they want to share their name, then, you know, we can follow up because, you know, what you said about trying to do something about sex trafficking locally, I'd love to hear more about, you're observing and your passion behind that. So maybe anonymous, but with the option of sharing names are great. I'll say also part of what we encourage in

listening and I tried to model this and even the questions I suggested a few minutes ago is what's called appreciative inquiry. And so instead of starting with, what do you hate about our church? What do you wish was different? Which is a question I like to ask. Maybe you get there, but start with the positive. When have you felt supported? When have you felt God's presence? When did you really change because of this church?

And as you start with the positive, you'll see the weaknesses or the blind spots by really focusing or starting, at least, with the bright spots. And we give all sorts of questions in the book about how you can have a survey or have a conversation or a focus group with young people. Soterios Johnson You mentioned a few minutes ago that younger generation, Gen Z, is justice oriented. Is this because every younger generation is always more justice oriented, or is there something unique about Gen Z

and their alertness to justice and injustice? Yeah, great question. I try not to make too many generation to generation comparisons because we often don't have the right data to do so. I do feel comfortable doing that with race thanks to the US Census, but I don't know that I can say this generation is more interested in justice and service.

They certainly are very interested in it. And partly because of what you alluded to in the question, I think I've said also in this conversation, because they're more aware. So they see what's going on. Yeah, in fact, during the pandemic, all three of our kids were home. Our son came home from college because he went into online class, and then we had an eighth grader and a 12th grader at the time. And like this was you know 2020 a lot of questions about racial justice, George Floyd, etc. And so you know I would ask most dinners which were the most relaxed dinners I think our

families ever had because we weren't like rushing off to volleyball or church or worship practice or anything. And so I would ask our kids like like, well, what have you seen today on social media about race and justice? And like, you know, that was a five minute conversation, but normally it was like a 15 to 20 minute conversation because my kids were so exposed and so interested. And so, you know, while I'm hesitant to say this generation is more interested in justice, they certainly are very interested in it because they see the pain. They have a real heart for people who are marginalized and they're especially burdened

by those. And so there's a lot of stories. We could argue about the biases in those stories for sure, but they're seen globally even. You look at Palestine and Israel, there's a lot of US teenagers who have very strong opinions about that because of social media. So they certainly have some information. I do think there is a uniqueness here, right?

The given social media, I mean, prior to the internet, prior to social media, it's not like teenagers were watching, you know, Walter Conkried or Dan Rather or whoever. Yeah. I can't remember those names. You don't watch the news until you're like 35, at least. But the social media, they see it every day. They can just, you know, it comes across their feed.

And so there's an alertness to the injustices. And they see, going back, and I don't necessarily know if this is a bad thing. You said like distrust of institutions. That can be, there can be a cynicism there. There could be a distrust in good institutions. It's not good. But I think they see through some of the BS. They see through some of the propaganda.

They see through some of the politics and sleaziness and corruption and stuff. And you can just see videos online of Israel-Palestine or whatever. That's interesting. Yeah. I wonder if it is kind of a... There is something fresh and new about how younger people approach justice. It'll be interesting to see when this old, young generation becomes the old generation.

Does that wear off or? Yeah. I will say, as you were talking about, we're talking about what young people see on social media. A few moments ago, I almost said young people are more informed. And then I changed it. And I said, they have more information. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Because informed implies that I think the information you have is accurate. And we don't know if that's the we often know that's not the case or sometimes isn't the case with social media. And so,

not the case or sometimes isn't the case with social media. And so, so, you know, I think that's, again, there's a positive and a negative, uh, to social media, more aware, but also probably more biased and less likely to empathize with the other side, whatever the other side is. So I've had to read minds of my kids. I'm like, Hey, just cause it's online doesn't mean it's actually real. You know, like there's a lot of weird stuff that can be posted that's just fabricated or one-sided or half truths or just straight up AI. Yeah.

Yeah. As talking about this, if I can tell another story of a church, because I think it's such an interesting one. There was this church in our research and I'm not allowed to share where it it is, but it was a very diverse community, let's say that. And during the pandemic, the church realized in 2020, the elder board of the church realized, gosh, some of us, this presidential election is coming, right in 2020.

And they realized, the elder deacon board was talking, and they realized, okay, some of us, we are voting for Joe Biden because of our faith, and others of us were voting for Donald Trump because of our faith. What if we could have a dialogue with the whole church in, on Zoom, still Zoom, about why our faith is leading us to vote

for either Joe Biden or President Trump? And so they took this idea of the senior pastor, and the senior pastor, a man full of faith and vision, said, no way. We are not having that conversation on Zoom. That is too hot of a potato. But the Holy Spirit worked on him and he ended up saying, like, okay, I think we can do this. And actually, I think Zoom in some ways made it a more controlled environment. And so sure enough, a month before the election, this church had an online Zoom discussion

with multiple elders and deacons talking about why their faith led them to vote for one candidate and others why my faith led me to vote for the second candidate. Here's what was interesting, Preston. When we showed up at that church, oh gosh, two years later, and our research process involved meeting with young people, meeting with parents, meeting with volunteers, meeting with pastors. in every conversation we had, people would talk about that Zoom. And young people, especially, they were like bragging that their church was the kind of church where they could have this kind of discussion. And I know, gosh, in 2025, it's not any easier to have that conversation. I am not naive about that. it's not any easier to have that conversation. I am not naive about that.

But our recommendation to churches are, what are the meaningful conversations you can have that bring different viewpoints or at least spotlight different viewpoints and let young people see, we do disagree on some things, but we can have this really civil conversation about it. So, whether it's the environment,

whether it's women in leadership, you know, whatever it might be, gosh, maybe our churches can be a place where we expose multiple viewpoints to young people and just model for them that faith can handle all that. So it was fascinating how many young people bragged about their church as, most churches couldn't do this, but we could.

And it just meant a lot to them. That's, I literally wrote this question down as you're talking a few minutes ago about the meaningfulness that is Gen Z uniquely hungering for meaningful conversations, conversations around different viewpoints, tackling the hard topics. It's hard because I don't want to rely on confirmation bias. I work in these spaces that are about meaningful conversations, so I don't want to assume everybody is into that. And I also have four kids that thrive on that, and they just get so bored when they're in

a youth group context, you know, there's all this stuff going on in the world from their mindset. They're like, there's all this stuff going on in the world. And we're just talking about like, you know, the same, same old salvation message again, that I've heard a thousand times. And it's like, how can we can't talk about the difficult things? And you know, I think you're really onto something, Preston. I mentioned before how much this generation isn't trusting. And I will say in conversations we have with sharp leaders, practitioners and thought leaders, that is the number one thing they ask about is, you know, with this

generation's lack of trust, what does that mean for how we earn trust or rebuild trust? And the good news is trust is not built through grand heroic gestures, it's built through everyday acts that any adult can do to build trust with a young person. But the second or third most important question is about meaning. So in fact, it's like you've been reading my email

because as we were talking last week as a research team about this, okay, this generation's hunger for meaning, where does that fit with identity, belonging and purpose? Is it the new term for purpose? Is it an umbrella that like, you know, that, that is above identity, belonging and purpose? So like literally that was my email discussion last week with our research team and we're going to be doing some research in the next year to try to, try to poke at that a little bit more. So that's interesting. A few, several, this is like four years ago, I was in a Bible study and it was like the

adults got together, had a whatever study. Um, and then the kids, the T a lot of us had teenage kids and they were just kind of, they just kind of scatter, run around and go watch a movie, go outside, do something. And they're just, and we didn't force them to be part of it, you know, for good or for ill. But one, one night, my, who my, you know, my dear wife just can't stand non-meaningfulness, you know, she's, if you just, if it's just like, is never ending, just like scratching the surface, all this stuff. She's like, I have more better things I can do. So she, out of nowhere, she's like, hey, what do you guys think about abortion? Yeah.

And like, you know, but like the adults were like, and all of a sudden all the kids like, they heard it and they fought. They all jumped in and like one had just written a paper on it. Another one was like, they all had different stories and they all had different really strong viewpoints and they were so eager to jump in and discuss. And we did, we jumped in and discussed it and stuff. And I think parents were hearing their kids talk about it. I didn't know you thought that. That's awesome. Yeah, that's great. Well, good for your wife for being willing to bring that up.

That reminds me of two questions that we recommend that adults, parents, step-parents, but also mentors ask young people, and they are this. What do you now believe that you think I no longer believe? And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe? So what do you now believe that you think I no longer believe? And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe? So what do you now believe that you think I no longer believe? And what do you no longer believe that you think I believe? And I love asking these questions to my own kids. And sometimes

they're like, not much, you know, nothing much has changed. But sometimes they're like, oh, I think I'm thinking differently about this. And it's often cultural questions where they're more progressive. And, you know, that's a trend in a lot of families is that our teenagers and young adults are more progressive than we are. And I think the key then, this feels like the theme here in our conversation is can I as an adult listen instead of lecture once my kids share something with me. And so, you know, one of our mantras out of our work, and I would give myself about a C plus on this, but I'm working at it, you know, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead.

Never make a statement if you can ask a question instead, especially with a young person. So you know, and I tried this with my own kids where they'll share an opinion that to me seems a little different than what I understand scripture to say. And so my response then to them will be, well, I'm curious how what you just said about X relates to this passage of scripture.

And, you know, the phrase I'm curious or help me understand, I think are really helpful ways to introduce that. And really be curious. I had to practice this with my 22 year old just a couple days ago, like, really be curious about her experience instead of only pretending to be curious before you, you know, give your lecture. So this is my own parenting journey. We're getting really autobiographical now here, Preston. I always say understand before you refute. You can't understand until you ask curious, honest questions about somebody else's viewpoint. Yeah, absolutely.

This episode is brought to you by Beeson Divinity School, an evangelical seminary at Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama. Beeson offers a robust master of divinity, forming students in person in a community-oriented model of theological education. I know several faculty members at Beeson and can easily testify to their priority for theological integrity, intellectual honesty, and their passion for the church. Now, thanks to a generous gift, Beeson is offering new full tuition scholarships for the 2025 to 2026 academic year, making its flagship degree more affordable than ever. Okay, so these are full tuition scholarships covering the costs of tuition and fees for three years. This is the average time it takes to finish the Master of Divinity. These scholarships won't last long. So if you want to further your theological heart

and mind, I highly, highly encourage you to apply at BeesonDivinity.com. Okay? That's BeesonDivinity.com. Check out the link in the show notes. I have heard, where have I heard this? That there is a surprising resurgence among younger people in terms of conservatism. That younger people are typically more progressive, their parents are going to be more conservative. and then when they get older, they become more conservative when they have to pay taxes and stuff. And is that, but is that, do we have data on that? Like, is there a resurgence among conservatism

among younger people more than normal? I don't know, Preston, that's a great question. I've heard that too. But yeah, I've heard that too. But yeah, I've heard that too. But I don't I can't say for sure if we actually have data to support that. So I think these next years here in the US are going to be interesting. You know, I this is a very fractured time in the US overall. And so how much are

young people going to reflect that fracturing? How much I hope hope, I hope, I hope, they can help lead us forward out of it? So I mean, I'm really optimistic about churches, mostly because I'm optimistic about God. You know, I believe in a God who is good and restoring and redeeming and reviving. And you know, there's some exciting glimpses, especially on college campuses these days. I'm on the board of InterVarsity. And one of my favorite stories from this year is an InterVarsity staff person

who showed up at the first large group meeting of the fall. This was in late August, early September and thought she was in the wrong room because there were 120 college students in the room waiting. And last year there had only been 20 college students who were coming to us. And there's story after story, inner varsity crew, other campus ministries are seeing this happen on college campuses. So, I think God is up to something. And then I'm also optimistic about young people. I actually have more hope in how 16 and 26 year olds will lead us all forward than how 46 and 56 and 76 year olds are going to

lead us all forward. So, I mean, I've said to my own kids, like, you know, I can't wait to see how you come up with fresh versions of the church that really elevate Jesus, gotta elevate Jesus, but give us new ways to live out our faith. And I think this generation is going to do it. Pete So, what's going on with the college campuses? Is that evangelistic? People are coming to faith or people that are Christians are more involved with campus ministries or both? Yeah. I think it's all of that. I mean, again, I'm closest to InterVarsity. So, InterVarsity has had more year-to-year growth this year than in decades. Part of that is, you know, recovery from the pandemic. So, there was a real dip during the pandemic. But it feels

like it's more than that because it's college students who are asking to be spontaneously baptized in college water fountains. So many college students signing up for retreats that they're putting up additional tents. It's Bible studies being filled. That's not true on every campus, but that is a theme that we're seeing in intervarsity. And again, my understanding is that is crew is seeing the same thing. I think Kerry Neuhoff, and I told him this, I think he's named it really well when he says this generation is both in revival and retreat.

So, you know, we are seeing evidence of what many call revival, especially on college campuses, but then also they're distrustful of the church, they're distrustful of religious adults. They are open to Jesus and you know, Preston, I'm actually realizing we haven't, I haven't said the word Jesus very many times in this conversation, so let me do so now. I mean some of the most encouraging data about young people is out of Barna and their global study of teenagers that young people are more open

to Jesus. They see Jesus as positive, as loving, as kind. The church they see as negative, hypocritical, you know, not loving, but Jesus, Jesus, they're really open to. And I think that's going to be the germinal scene, seed for revival. That's a big deal. I love Jesus, but I don't like the church. And that's, that's always been, well, that always, we've been hearing that for decades though. Yeah. What needs to change? Is that, is that their misperception or is the church really need to change? It's a somewhere in between. I'm sure. In your opinion, like, are there things that church can and should change to reduce that

perception? I mean, that's... I'll tell you, the biggest thing is we should start tangibly loving young people. Like, I mean, this goes back to what I said a few minutes ago, that trust is built through everyday acts. It's, you know, texting a young person, and I'd love for some of your listeners to do this right now if they aren't driving. It's texting a young person, and I'd love for some of your listeners to do this right now if they aren't driving. It's texting a young person, a grandkid, a niece, somebody at your church, a neighbor and saying, hey, how can I be praying for you? And a week later saying, hey, I prayed for that exam.

I prayed for your college decision. I prayed for you were trying out for this team. I prayed for what's going on with your boss because you're working at the nearest fast food place. I know that's stressful. How did it go? So it's adults being consistent, adults being close. I think that's one of the biggest things

that we can do as adults. And I've mentioned the pandemic a few times. Some of the research that's most depressing to me from the pandemic with young people when it comes to faith is Springtime did a survey of 13 to 25 year olds and only 10% heard from a faith leader during the first year of the pandemic. Only 10%. Any faith, that's not just Christianity. That's any faith. Yeah, wow is right. Like, I don't know if I'm more mad or sad about that data But I'm both but then here's the good news in that same survey

70% of young people said that they have a higher value in relationships right now So, you know this anxious generation when adults slow down and care listen remember When adults slow down and care, listen, remember, pray, follow up, show up at a soccer game. When adults do that, that builds bridges with young people. And any of us can do that and encourage other adults to do the same. Are you a fan of youth groups?

I mean, I assume you are, but some people are like, we should just abolish youth groups. Yeah, and I'm abolish youth groups. But are you- Yeah, and I'm not in that camp. I think there is a place for, I'm glad you asked. I think there is a place for 16 year olds and 46 year olds and 76 year olds to be talking about life stage issues with peers.

So, you know, I pray a lot for my own kids. I prayed this morning for my own kids and their peer friendships. I also prayed for mentors for my own kids. I prayed this morning for my own kids and their peer friendships. I also prayed for mentors for my own kids this morning. And so, you know, young people need both. And a lot of churches are really strong in youth group and need to be more intentional with intergenerational. So, what are some key ingredients in a youth ministry that you would say universally, I know every church is different, but like what are some key things that they should be doing?

I mean, you've already, you know, I would say cultivating other adult one-on-one mentors, not just a sermon from a stage every Wednesday night or whatever. I'm going to assume... Right, right, right. And spiritual practices, service, you know, partnering with families. I mean, it's those five drivers prioritizing themselves. And so, I mean, to your point, let's get really like direct about this. Probably in most cases, there is something that looks like a youth group.

There is some, you know, some meeting where young people are with peers and adults are involved and they're engaging in spiritual practices, they're maybe serving together. That's just fine. Like, you know, again, I want that for my own kids who are now college and beyond. And they also need to be involved in the overall community too. And so, you know, churches are doing a lot of creative things. My own church, I love what my own church does. Teenagers are in the worship service every week. They sit toward the front, but, and then at lunch, teenagers go off for an hour and have a discussion about the sermon that day with adults who are invested in them. And then there's also Wednesday small groups. So my church actually, I mean,

our youth group is lunch after church, talking about, you know, whatever the message was, and just, you know, how they're doing and how their life is intersecting or not intersecting with Jesus. So that's what that looks like in my church. But in other churches, it might be more of a traditional youth group, but still always thinking about inter-gen. I wonder how, how I would hate to be a youth pastor with Karen Powell at my church. Well, I, I, I, yes, I do.

I try to not offer many suggestions. I will say that and wait for them to come to me with questions. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it could, it should be a biggest blessing, but I mean, I'm sure it could be intimidating. I feel like. Yeah.

Yeah, if I do anything right. I'll just say, no, I don't have any more comments on that, Preston, but yes. I also wanna know what it was like. I didn't talk to your kids. What was it like being raised by the foremost scholar in your generation? Well, it is funny. When you asked that, I actually thought, by the foremost scholar in your generation.

It is funny. When you asked that, I actually thought, I think it's more interesting to hear about my kids' experience than my youth-fessional experience. You know, while they were home for the pandemic, I mean, like every night was a focus group, it felt like for me, which was wonderful around the dinner table.

I think my kids, they will say to me every once in a while, mom, you can't post about this. And I asked permission, I asked permission, like, can I post this? Can I post this picture? Can I post this question, et cetera? So we've navigated that okay. But yes, there are dynamics there. I will just say that.

As there are being the children of Preston Sprinkle or whoever you are. I'm not sure if that's a good thing to say, but I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say.

I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say.

I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's a good thing to say. I think that's't, that doesn't, that, that may earn you some street credit in some places and not in others. But honestly, it's, I think because locally I'm pretty much unknown. It's never like, unless they, they would face it more if they like went outside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He goes to Wales and it's like, Oh, how do they know who you are? Dad, you know? Yeah. And that's true with my kids too. But when

pastor's kids, they navigate that every week. So, yeah. All right. We've got a question here from a, one of our Patron supporters here. John wants to know a great topic and wisdom being given out. Wish I would have known then what I'm hearing now. He wants to know, did I miss it? Or does your organization offer training for you? Yeah. Great question. We definitely offer training. And I mentioned 10 by 10. That's really where those five drivers are housed. If you go to one Oh one Oh.org, 10, 10.org, we have a host of training, most of which is free. And most of which has come from our partners, these 160 organizations offering their best.

So we kind of get to be this awesome buffet where everybody brings their best dish, and we've curated it around those five drivers of faith. So absolutely, you can go to 1010.org. If you're more interested in how to bring about change, that's really the subject of our most recent book, Future Focus Church, and you can go to futurefocustchurch.com, where we give tools, we give an explanation of the book,

and we'd love to help your church move from where you are now to God's best future for you. We've talked all around it, but haven't actually dove it into it. Yeah, Future Focus Church, give us the two minute overview. What is this recent book about? Yeah. So, you know, a lot of our past research has been what we've been talking about here. Like what needs to change in churches. So important where a lot of churches get stuck isn't, isn't so much the what needs to change,

but how to bring about change. And so what Future Focus Church does is it's a four zone roadmap based on scripture, based on our actual journeys with over a thousand diverse churches, and then based on really good research on organizational change. And we boil all that down to a process that all sorts of diverse churches have undertaken to move from here to there. That's what we call it. What's your here? What's your current reality?

Listening to people and then listening to God and processes where you know God's taking you and who makes that journey and how you make that journey. Those are the four zones. Great, great. Awesome. Well, Kara, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate you being on The Old Israel. Again, I think this is your second or third, at least second time. Yeah, multiple. You asked great

questions, Preston. So I'm happy to anytime. And I love the spirit of this conversation. I mean, you and your listeners, you're curious. And that's who I want to be to is curious people about churches and the next generation. Awesome. I appreciate it. Future Focus Church, you guys, it just came out, well, as of the release of this episode a few weeks ago. So go check it out. How they encourage anybody, parents, even, but youth leaders, if you're involved in the youth in some level, you definitely have to- Board members, yeah. Anybody who cares about their church, really, it's for anybody who cares about their church. And senior leaders, right? Senior pastors. And senior leaders, right? Senior leaders. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.

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