Theology in the Raw - From Keeping it on the Down-Low to Finding One's Identity in Christ: Reginald Robinson

Episode Date: August 29, 2024

Reginald Robinson, the Senior Pastor of VEIR - The Church at Huntsville, has been married for 16 years and he and his wife have three children. He is the founder of the Brand New You Mentorship Intensive, which helps men engage in courageous conversations to overcome sexual sin, find community and brotherhood, and discover their identity in Christ. Register for the Austin conference on sexualtiy (Sept 17-18) here: https://www.centerforfaith.com/programs/leadership-forums/faith-sexuality-and-gender-conference-live-in-austin-or-stream-online Register for the Exiles 2 day conference in Denver (Oct 4-5) here: https://theologyintheraw.com/exiles-denver/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of theology in the raw. Our Austin sexuality conference is from September 17th, 18th at life family church. You could attend live in Austin, or you can attend virtually all the information is that center for faith.com. Also our two day exiles conference in Denver, Colorado, October 4th to 5th. You're not going to want to miss it. All the information is that theology in the raw.com. My guest today is my new friend, Reginald Robinson, who is a senior pastor of Vare the church at Huntsville. He's been married for 16 years and has three children with his wife. He's the founder of the brand

new U mentorship intensive, which helps men engage in courageous conversations to overcome sexual sin, find community and brotherhood and discover their identity in Christ. This is a very honest, raw, meaningful, powerful story from Reginald. So I'm excited for you to listen to it. I just really appreciated his wisdom, his humility and courage to be able to share his story. So please welcome to the show, the one and only Reginald Robinson. Reginald, man, I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while. It was such a delight to talk to you offline to the day. And yeah, anyway, thanks

for coming out the all genera to share your story. Absolutely, man. I am glad to be here. Blessed to be here. Shocked to be here that you even asked me to come. Yeah. This, this escalated quickly. So, yeah, yeah. So I, our mutual friend Ezekiel emailed or he DMed me. And this is the thing I hardly ever check DMS. I just, you know, have enough emails and stuff to work through. And I happened to look at it and I was like, dude, wait, is this the Ezekiel who is like, has this major platform? And, and he said that you guys are friends and wanted to connect me with you. And so I immediately reached out and said,, I mean, let's, let's have a conversation. So that's so interesting. And I hear that. And I'm so grateful for the,

the way that Ezekiel and I connected because I didn't know that he was this huge popular guy. I didn't know that I really, I was on Instagram and I saw his family. He was literally doing work in the house. He was like painting. And I'm like, this is a, he's a model family guy. I knew nothing about poets, poem, I can't even say it now. Poets in Autumn, I knew nothing about that. I had only seen one poem from him and it was like a,

I don't know, 10, 20 year old poem where he has on the tuxedo and the girl has on the dress. But yeah, so, so, so that's interesting when I hear people say things like that about him. And I'm, but I'm, I'm so grateful for the connection. I just knew him from his name. I just know he has this big platform and does great work and just such a humble guy. You know, people have a big platform, big influence, and yet they're just so genuine and humble to me. That just puts them at a different category because that's usually the bigger the platform, the bigger the head. And it, I don't get that

sense from him. Yeah. That's one thing that was quite frankly offsetting for me because I was looking for it. I'm like, at some point the real person is going to show up, you know, there's no way he can be, you know, have such a big platform, but he's, he's just an incredible guy. He really is. So let's, let's yeah. Who, who is a Reginald? Tell us about who you are, your story. And I'm sure that's going to open up a lot of different, different doors we could go into. Yeah.

Yeah. So as I said to you earlier, man, this is all, you know, this is all new to me. Sharing my story in this way and to just go from having a story that is one, it's kind of like a taboo story to now it becoming a story that people want to hear. So now I'm in the process of figuring out, okay, well, how do I tell this story? But man, I'm a son of God, saved and kept by the grace of God. I, since a child, just had this deep love and longing and relationship for God and for church. When I was younger, I dealt with a lot of bullying. I was quite different. And

because of that difference, I didn't feel that I had a lot of friendships and community. Now, I didn't say this in my podcast with Ezekiel, but I do want to give a shout out to my family. My family is amazing. My mom is amazing. My father, who passed away some years ago, was amazing. I did have community, but I had this issue that was an issue that I didn't know how to deal with and that, quite frankly, people around me, and that quite frankly, people around me, I don't believe, you know, knew how to deal with. And so at a very young age, I was exposed to the act of sex by a close person to me. And this was a female. And then a couple of years later, I was exposed to sex with a male. And over years, it continued to happen.

Reginald, real quick, so those two relationships, were they in the category of like an abusive relationship, consensual, or is there an age differential? Yeah, so- Or all the above, or? Yeah, it was all of the above, honestly. You know, it wasn't until about three years ago that I looked at it and said, wait, that was, that was molestation, you know, in some of the cases, you know, but in others, you know, of those cases, as I got a little bit older, though still young,

it was, you know, same age consensual kind of stuff that was happening. Raising a house full of women, had female tendencies, had a lisp, had a little twist in my walk, stuff that I didn't know I had, but obviously everybody else could see. People call me homosexual, people call me gay, and I didn't even know what it was. And so because of these tendencies that I had, plus these interactions that I had sexually, it caused me to find myself growing into this world of confusion. So again, I don't know how to really go into this conversation, but wondering was I what people said I was, which was gay or homosexual.

Is this as like an early teen or like what age? This is before teen. This is preteen. Oh, wow. Right. Yeah. So it started very, very young. But again, at this formative age, I'm trying to figure out, okay, who am I and what am I? And I know that sex is wrong first outside

of marriage, but most definitely anything that I've ever heard about same sex attraction or interaction is wrong. You know, what is going on with me? You know, why am I here? And it just left me in a world of confusion. A world of confusion. And nobody had talked to you. I mean, this is all, you're just keeping this down. No, no, I had not had a gateway or avenue to talk to anybody about it. First of all, because just quite naturally, unless you just have one of those golden kind of relationships, which I can't say should be contributed to the parent or the child or both, but unless you have one of those golden relationships where you're very comfortable being open and

honest with the parent or with someone around, you know, this conversation is hard, whether it's heterosexual or homosexual. But the fact that you have that layer of homosexuality on top of it makes it even more challenging because if you, you know, with me being raised in the church, I only heard about it in church. And when I heard about it in church, it was wrong, you know? And so then who do you talk to? You know, how do you have this conversation? And so, no, I didn't have anybody to really talk to about this at that young age. Pete That's an interesting point. Maybe we can come back to it, but when you're in a church

environment, when the only time this topic is brought up is in a negative sense, and maybe it's truthful, maybe it's just, hey, same-sex relationships are wrong, gay marriage is wrong, this is wrong, that's wrong, that's wrong. Those could all be very true statements, but if it's only that side, not gay people are creating God's image, God wants a desire, desires a relationship with everybody, you know, like if there's no positive aspect, I would have, it seems like that would simply compound people's desire to keep this to themselves. Absolutely. And not. to themselves. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, yeah, rightly so. The truth is the truth.

But when you speak truth and you provide no avenues for discipleship, no avenues for open, honest conversation, no avenues for safety and security, then it becomes a problem. Which I think, I can't speak for the church at large, but I can say, in my experience, that was the missing element. I won't say the desire wasn't there. And I won't even go to the extreme to say that the church is overarching, judgmental. I just say they didn't know what to do. You know, they didn't know how to handle it. You know, how do you do this? And so even me with where I am, and as I'm progressing and as I'm working with other people, I'm still trying to figure it out. Now, I have an advantage because I've come from the lifestyle. I know

what it feels like. I know certain things that a person who has not experienced a lifestyle may not understand and be aware of. But even with all of that, it's still challenging to figure out how to create these spaces, how to have these conversations. And so I just think that that was the missing element, that the point of discipleship taking the hand, walking through, and not looking at me like I'm disgusting, you know, when I share such intimate thing with you. It's almost like unintentional ignorance. And I mean, ignorance can be like, that could sound very negative, but just, people just don't know sometimes these things, you know? So, I think

in most churches, I don't, there's some churches that are aggressively hostile toward gay people, whatever, but I think in most churches I've been in, you know, like they, there's just, there is a lot of ignorance around the conversation, a lot of silence. And sometimes that silence can speak louder than, louder than they intend. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's there. We see it. We see it in the church. We see it on the instruments. We see it in the choir stand. We see it in the pulpit. We see it, but it's two extremes.

It's either polar opposite or it's, I'm sorry, polar silence or it's damnation. Let me add another one to it. It's broad acceptance, right? You know, and, and I think finding that middle ground where there's grace to have the conversation, there's love, grace and truth is a place that we had really had much opportunity for or a space that we hadn't found. So your young age, I mean, preteen, you're having these horrible, like, really experiences you're trying to process by yourself. Take us back to that time. What was that journey

like for you? So, I think this, you know, served as a deepening of my personal relationship with God. You know, I remember sitting on the corner of my bed and just crying out to God about this thing that I didn't know. I didn't know what to do with it. I had nobody to talk to. And there did come a time in my teenage years that I went to speak to somebody about it. But I mean, they couldn't help me.

They didn't know what to do with it. For me, in some cases, reaching out to people did more damage than good, because there was just no space. And so I just kind of felt left to deal with it throughout my life, even in my adulthood and in ministry and as I grew older, it was still this thing that I had no community or no avenues to say anything. Now when I got older, I finally met a mentor that had this tremendous level of understanding and grace that I was able to just share things.

Because for the most part, a lot of my healing was coming from a space where I felt safe to just share and feel understood. And so I did meet a mentor that was able to do that. And I have a great pastor and apostle now in which I'm able to share. But man, prior to that, it was just, it was no space. When I contacted, you know, Band of Brothers and Pastor Ezekiel, it was the first time that there was a space that I felt embraced, I felt accepted, and I felt that I did not have to hide my story. In fact, I felt that my story was powerful and it empowered me to empower others by sharing. It wasn't until then that I actually felt like a breakthrough. I felt like something really shifted in my mind because it wasn't this hidden thing.

And I'll say too, some of the people that I had went to earlier, man, to talk to, they would tell me, you know, don't share that with nobody. Don't say anything about it. But the problem was, that was my problem that nobody was sharing and nobody was saying anything about it. So I could only find, and later I could find Jackie Hill Perry. And later I was sitting in rooms with Sophia Ruffin. And that was very powerful. That was very helpful, but I'd never saw a man. And so, so with that, it was like, okay, I can identify,

but at the same time, there's slightly a difference. And then, sometimes when you hear testimonies like that, it's like, I had the issue, I prayed to God, and boom, I'm free. And that just wasn't my story. And so when I would hear that, that would challenge me even more. So I'm like, okay, am I the scum of the earth? Am I just, you know, is there no hope for

me? Should I, is it even worth it for me to continue to try? And I remember praying and talking to God and, and, and God kind of said to me, you're the one you're looking for. And that's when I knew, okay, I'm going to have to start sharing this story. So go, going back, uh, teenage, young adult years, do you feel like you were living like a double life where you were still following Jesus, even in ministry? Were you, for lack of a better terms, you know, acting on your desires or was it just simply a struggle that you, a temptation that you kept battling? Wonderful question, bro. No, I was, I was very active on my desires. You know, I'm just

going to be totally transparent and honest. It's extremely, you know, I think it's all that says chief among centers. That was me. And again, that was a part of my problem. You know, I was dangerous in sin, sin sick, but still had this love for God. And it just, it didn't make sense. You know, so yes, man, I was, I was very active, you know, in that lifestyle and in that world. You said double life, you know, these phrases are thrown at us, you know, like double life, download, DL, you know. And I think it's damaging because- Oh, those words are damaging. Yes. I think it's damaging.

Okay. Okay. Because I didn't subscribe to that, but you call me that. So just like when I was a child and people called me gay before I knew what gay was, now it's almost like society is ministering something to me. And when you subscribe to something, you become what you subscribe to. And you get what I'm saying? So I mean, I understand that you may say double, I understand that it fits the bill of double life. But the problem with just calling someone DL or saying that they live a double life, I don't know if it fits the bill of double life. But the problem with just calling someone DL or saying that they live a double life, I don't know if it gives the grace of understanding to know that

they were like me trying to find a way. What's the term? What term would you, how would you describe that period of your life? That's a great question. I think this is where we, I think this is where we make homosexuality something far different from any other type of sin. And so it's got to have its own special things and terminologies and whatnot. So what do you call the person who's recovering from alcohol? What do you call that process in their life? Right? Are they a DL alcoholic or are they in recovery? Are they on the road to deliverance? Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, I, I don't, I'm, I, I love that you bring this up because I do think sometimes terminology can have an unintended by negative byproduct of pushing people into the very thing you're, you're, you're categorizing them as. I don't

think that's the intention of people, even though you're not, you know, I didn't think about it. I just, you know, so first word that came to mind. So, but yeah, that can further solidify the very behavior that somebody is trying to get out of. So, and I think that's one thing that helped me, you know, in my journey in process is that I never subscribe to it. If the Word of God is my final governing authority, it is an error for me to speak of myself anything that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ for my life, if that makes sense. – In that period of your life, would you say like you just kept kind of falling into sin, life, were you, would you say like you just kept kind of falling into sin, would feel guilty, repent, fall again. Like were you grappling with faithfulness or were you like,

you know, just kind of, or was it just like a compartment of your life that you were living without it letting your, your, your faith journey kind of like invade that part. Is that, if that makes sense, you know what I mean? Like, did you have like ongoing guilt over what was? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Remorse. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, okay. So when you're in sin, I think some people think that you can be in sin and you can choose the degree of sin to which you'll be in. Now, I do think that certain people are disciplined, so they can change their behavior, you know, and decide what they're gonna do. For example, you know,

homosexual, heterosexual lifestyle, there are certain people who are more disciplined with their sexuality and sexual activity versus others. So I do think that people can do that, but ultimately I don't think that you can choose the degree of sin that you will engage because James make it very clear that he talks about the conception of sin leading all the way to the point of death. So I said all of that to answer your question. I loved God, but I was enslaved to sin. I was enslaved to sin. And so I kept finding myself falling back into sin, which was quite difficult because falling into sin

made it hard for me to believe what the word of God said about me. But I had to continue to stand on what the word of God said about me because I knew that was my only way to free. This episode is brought to you by Mitopure by Timeline. Timeline is a Swiss based life science company and is a global leader in Urolithian A research. Okay, so I've recently been learning about Urolithian A. Urolithium A is a powerful postbiotic that is nearly impossible to get just from your diet alone.

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you'll get 10% off your order. That's timeline. T I M E L I N E dot com forward slash theology to take advantage of this offer. Go check it out. What was the breakthrough then you said a few years ago, really? I mean, this is fairly recent, right? I mean, what was, talk to us about that turning point in your life. So that's a hard question. People ask me that, or they'll message me, and they'll say, well, what did you do?

I don't know what I did. It wasn't like a natural human discipline. I believe God, Preston. I refuse to let go completely. And I just kept believing that at some point, God would free me from the act, you know, from the engagement. And over time, he freed me. Now, I think the community of Brotherhood, Banda Brothers help. I think the confession and being able to release a testimony really helped.

I think community was paramount for me to get to the point that I am today. So three years ago, I was not this man that I am today. Not saying that I was wilding three years ago. However, the level of confidence and faith that I have and who I am now, I did not saying that I was wiling three years ago. However, the level of confidence and faith that I have in who I am now, I did not have that before I found brotherhood. I had a safe space. I was able to make confessions and I was empowered by sharing my testimony and also empowered by knowing that sharing my testimony was empowering others.

I talked to a lot of people that long for a kind of community that would come alongside them in a non-judgmental, grace-filled way, grace and truth, helping people to walk towards Jesus in a healthy way. How did that start? How did you find that kind of community? Did you just start being more honest with your story and inviting people into it or? So again, the story was never, it was never a secret for me. Like there would be certain people who would come to me, you know, years back and I would pray with them.

I'd walk them through it. I would kind of create a personal safe space for these individuals. But becoming a part of BLB, I didn't know that I needed brotherhood the way I did. And I didn't know that brotherhood and community in that way was as powerful as it was until I was a part of it, until I saw the impacts that it had on my life. So when I saw, I had just started following Pastor Ezekiel. And when I saw the post that

he put up, it was something in my spirit that just said, you need to be a part of this group. And so... This is, you said B.O.B.? Is that what you said? Yeah, Banda Brothers. What is that? So... Banda Brothers. And that's... Okay.

Yeah. So, I connected with the group. It wasn't, it wasn't. So, I would share my testimony with people that I felt I needed to share my testimony with. So, it was usually people who dealt with homosexuality. But this group was different because it wasn't, it wasn't. So I would share my testimony with people that I felt I needed to share my testimony with. So it was usually people who dealt with homosexuality. But this group was different because it wasn't a whole lot of people that dealt with homosexuality, or at least it was not a lot of people who said that they dealt with homosexuality. Coming into this community, receiving the love and the acceptance and having a space to share the testimony and then seeing the impact of the testimony. That's why the transformation really took place in my life. What?

So when you started sharing your testimony, what was the response that you start hearing from other people that had similar stories? Okay. Kind of a loaded question. Cause I know, I know a bit about the answer. Yeah, man. So when I first shared the testimony, bro, it was, it was, it was rough. Okay. I didn't know how to share it. First of all, I didn't know what to say or what not to say. I didn't know where to start, but I shared it. And honestly, I don't even know what I

say it that first time. And just to give people some backdrop, B.O.B. had just started, Bander Brothers had just started, and we started with sharing testimonies. Everybody was sharing their testimony this particular night, and it was some powerful testimonies, but nobody said anything about homosexuality. So I wasn't going to go, because I'm like, I'm not about to, you know, self-destruct. We're just not going to do this. Right. And so Pastor Ezekiel

is texting me as the testimonies are going on saying, Reg, go next, because I had shared it with him. And I'm like, no, I'm not doing it. You know. And finally, at the end, I think I was the last person, I shared my testimony. And while I'm sharing it, my voice is shaking. Just afraid of what they're gonna think about me and I'm just talking. Bro, it was so quiet in there. I mean, it was an awkward, it was, you know, cause

everybody was silent when everybody else shared their testimony. But when I shared mine, it just felt like a different kind of silence. That's a different guy. That's a, that's your story is a Bible study stopper, man. So, you know, when I, when I, when I, when I shared it, you know, it was quiet and I really didn't get a response on the line. You know, I don shared it, you know, it was quiet. And I really didn't get a response on the line. You know, I don't even know if anybody said anything. I got off the phone, I cried. I sat there for about 30 minutes. I felt a whole lot of emotions. It wasn't until later that Pastor Ezekiel would call and say, bro, when you shared your testimony,

I had so many guys hit me up to tell me that they're dealing with the same thing. You know? And then later on, it was when people would come to me or call me and say, man, I just gotta tell you, I've dealt, your story is so similar to mine and I've never heard anybody, especially not a man, share this story, you know? story is so similar to mine and I've never heard anybody, especially not a man share

this story, you know? And so that's when I began to know that the story had to impact. We went on to this is, this is, sorry, real quick. This is primarily an African-American community, right? Oh yeah. It was, or was it multi pretty multi-ethnic or is it mainly African-American? Yeah. It's predominantly black. Yeah. I mean, that does add a, in my experience, like the people that are having these conversations where you can speak freely is primarily kind of a more white evangelical. And when I talked to my black pastor friends are like, Oh yeah, no, we're the ethnicity piece here is going to add a whole other piece of this that is makes it extra difficult, which is why you, as a black man sharing your story is probably among the more unique, like I can get 10 white dudes that have similar stories that's, you know, and

they can share in a white church typically. And it depends on the church, but it might be like, Oh yeah. I, you know, it's, it's not as unheard of for it to hear somebody share their stories. So, so, so this is a problem. This is a problem. Example of representation matter mattering, right? Um, people need to see people who look like them, you know, um, in many cases, you know, um, and the same thing for me, I needed to see a man. I never did. Unfortunately, not a black man. Um, now since then, since sharing the testimony, since doing the podcast with Pastor Ezekiel, I've seen, it's like a whole new world has opened up.

I've seen so many people that I was not aware of at first. Even you, I saw your podcast the first time, right? The first time I ever saw you was on my way home from recording the podcast with Pastor Ezekiel. On my way home, yes. And I said to myself, oh my God, I should have listened to this before I did the podcast. Yeah, I almost told them, don't post it.

Because there was so much, you know, I'm learning a lot, man, I'm learning. Not at all, it was, yeah. Yeah, so much, you know, I'm learning a lot, man. I'm learning like- Not at all. It was, yeah. Yeah. So, so what you guys said, you and the Perrys, what you said about using the term same sex over homosexuality, you know, I was like, man. Oh yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

I just didn't know to do it. So, but since then the world has opened up and I've seen a lot of people, I've gotten a lot of DMS from a lot of guys who are very open public and doing great works. But, um, prior to that, I didn't see it. So yeah. So representation does matter, you know, and, um, I'm seeing a lot of even till today, man, just almost every day I'm receiving messages from men who just needed to hear somebody say it. How many people do you think since, let's just say, since being on Ezekiel's podcast or since you first shared your story, how many men do you think have reached out to

you with similar stories? Anywhere between three or 500. Oh my God. Yeah. I think these are all Christian men, right? Or mostly? For the most part, yeah. Now, I've had some conversation with people who are not Christian. I've had some conversation with some highly emotionally intelligent people who complimented the podcast, but thought differently. But yeah, for the most part, these are men in the church,

man. And it makes sense. Pastors? Leaders? Pastors, leaders, worship leaders, new believers, people who, you know, some just got saved last week. Three to five hundred. And it's diverse, man. It's a wide range. So, you know, we started the mentorship group, Brand New You. We're actually in week nine of 10 weeks of mentorship.

And man, we've learned so much through this experience. But one thing we realized was the diversity of experiences of men who deal with same-sex attraction. You got people on the extreme who was enslaved, highly engaged in the act, such as myself. But then you have others who just have the desire and they never yielded to the actual act. You got some who only have an attraction for females, for males. And then you got others such as myself, I had an attraction for both male and female.

So it's been very interesting to see the diversity there. You mentioned a brand new you. This is the mentorship group. You started recently, right? You said that you're just a few weeks, couple of months in or? Yeah, we started this mentorship group because after the podcast, man, the response was overwhelming. I'm not going to lie.

It was overwhelming. So I went from being afraid of the release of the podcast to becoming now overwhelmed by the response of the podcast. Probably 90% positive. Wow. And so from there, I said that, I knew there was something that needed to be done. And so I sat with counsel and with help

to try to figure out what can we do to help these people? Because most of them were asking for mentorship. And I'm like, bro, I cannot do 101 on one meetings. And the other part of it is I just shared my story. I don't have all the answers. I don't have 12 steps. I'm just contributing to the conversation. But what I realized was that most people, they didn't need another theologian and they really didn't need a whole lot of answers. They just needed community. So we created a space called Brand New You. We opened up applications for brothers to apply for this 10 week process. We call it the beta because we're trying to figure it out. And we had 101 guys to sign up. We only selected 20 and

we have about 18 now who are in the final two weeks of the process. So because of just space limitation, you had to turn down 80 or put them on a waiting list or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we had to, you know, we had a lot of guys that were, we were trying to figure it out, but we just knew for quality control, we could not have our due to some guys. And so, we had a lot of them that were kind of disappointed when they were not selected. And really that was a hard thing too, because it's like, this is not American Idol.

We were really being prayerful to see who seemed to have the most urgent need for space and for care. And so we selected the 20. With these guys and also just generally speaking to three to 500 that you've talked to, for the most part, have their stories been totally secret? Like are these people that just have not really talked about this part of their life or have they been kind of open in their communities? So yeah, there's a small percentage of them that has, they'll say I've shared my testimony or I tried to share my testimony and you know, my environment is not conducive for me sharing my testimony, you know, or I want to become more bold in sharing my testimony.

But for the most part, these guys have never had the space to share. In fact, with the 20 that we selected, we started with week one was called Confessions. We understood the power of sharing testimony. I know what that did for me. What I didn't say earlier was that after I shared my testimony, I had a lot of mixed emotions, but I also felt extreme relief. I was able to let it go and I felt that there was space for elevation and for growth. And so week one, they shared the testimonies, but these guys, man, had not, most of them had not ever shared it. They didn't know how to share it.

And it was so much to share that it took us about three weeks for everybody to be able to share the testimonies. And so that's where we started. And most of them, again, it was the first time ever doing it. My other question, and I think you kind of touched on it, but I'm curious about the different environments, specifically church environments that these brothers are in and whether those environments have been helpful or silent or not helpful. It sounds like for the most part, the environments have not been super great. I think now more than ever, we're seeing a rise of pastors and churches that are being very intentional about taking on this conversation. But, you know, again, in most cases, that they're not ready

to have the conversation. I say in the podcast with Ezekiel, I went to people, but they couldn't help me deal with it because they never dealt with it or they never dealt with it. Meaning they've never mentored or prayed for someone who dealt with homosexuality or they dealt with it themselves secretly and privately and it may trigger something for them. And so, yeah, in most cases when they go and they try to share it in the churches, it's just not room, not space, not acceptance for it. Why is that? It's a big question. I know. And maybe it's impossible to give a, I think it's, I think it's because we we've idolized, you know, same-sex attraction and homosexuality

among sins because after you deal with the layer of it being homosexuality or same-sex attraction, then it's a sin like all other sins. You know, I think the other reason is because of ignorance. So when we talk about homosexuality, it's one of those things that seems to get so complex and convoluted, but then when you go to the Bible, you see that there are only a handful of scriptures that talk about it. So what's so complex about it, right?

And so then you start getting off into your conversation where you talk about the original terms and, you know, the Arsene Quotai and the Malay Coals. But you realize even through all of that, anytime that it references it, it's never referencing it in a favorable way. You know? Now, you're better with this part of the conversation than I am, but a lot of people are afraid because when you hear somebody talking about it,

let's say I wanna talk about it, I wanna have a conversation, when you hear somebody talking about it, in many cases, if they're willing to have the conversation, they're accepting, they're arguing that it is okay. But if I want to come and say no, according to what I'm reading in the scripture, this is not okay. This is a sin. It's an abomination. But it's not the only abomination, right? It's hard to have the

conversation when you don't feel like you have the backing to have it. You feel like you're just going to be standing out there by yourself. I don't think some churches or pastors have even decided what they believe. They don't know. They don't know if they should accept it or not. They got children who deal with same sex attraction. They deal with same sex attraction. Have the people in the choir and in their organization and leadership have same-sex attraction. How do I address this? You know, so I think that's why. Are people in your group, are they wrestling with what the Bible says about it? Or is there a underlying assumption that I know what the Bible says, or I know enough, you know, to

know that it's wrong. Now I'm just trying to, what does faithfulness look like, you know, from that perspective? Or are you guys debating kind of what the Bible says? There's no debate here, which we thought we would have some. There's no debate. There was a little confusion, but there was no debate. And we were very intentional about really walking through the scripture. And I think that was the second week, the week after confessions, the first lesson that we taught was titled, Is it a Sin? And so, we went through the Scripture and we just gave them face value, what the Scripture said, the original definitions of the words, you know, the arts and the court, the late coast. And we gave it to them.

We handed it to them. And we said, hey, now you make a decision, because we can't make that decision for you. And we can't tell you. But you take this and you see if you believe or you see what you believe the biblical stance is on this and how God feels about it. Majority of them felt that it was already wrong. They just needed guidance from that space. Okay. Okay. What would be your advice? I'm trying to make this a concise question, but it's a bigger question. But like your advice to pastors, church leaders, let me back. Like what you're doing is amazing. You know, we've talked offline and I know

your heart. I know you probably wish you didn't have to do this if the church is doing what it was doing. Like, um, so if, if a church is, if a pastor is listening and is like, well, I don't want my church environment to be such that people have to, they can't share their story. They can't talk about it. They have to go find some, you know, an online group to go get help. But we want to be in a church that provides help to walk with people. What would be your advice to pastors, leaders, if they're wanting to create a better church environment around this conversation? Yeah, I think when you deal with this directly, it becomes kind of like a specialty group. So let's say you got a marriage ministry

or you got particular ministries, I think that that does come into play when you wanna deal with it that way. I think the other part of it is, I almost feel like pastors or leaders, especially who haven't dealt with it, need to go through this mentorship program. Like, because they need to know, you know, and this is not, you know, not a

plug, right, but but they the awareness of all the components around it, the emotions, the feeling the trauma, I just think that they're ill informed. And so, um, you know, from this, I'd say, they've got to be informed. But then the problem becomes when looking for information, where do I find it? Where do I find what I need to know to be informed as I approach people who deal with homosexuality? I would say the other thing would be to take a stance. Is your church going to be affirming or not? Make a very clear stance about it. I think that that would help earlier on.

And from there, just creating a culture within your church that if you're not going to be accepting, it's not accepting of the act of being engaged in same-sex attraction. However, still loves people, still is willing to mentor people and not making a person who has same sex attraction feel other than or different from people who are dealing with alcoholism or abuse, you know, not making it the capital idolized sin. Things are coming to mind as I'm talking. I think one other thing I would say is to talk about it.

Yeah. You know, talk about, you know, say it. When I first started going to the Band of Brothers retreat, the first time I went, I didn't know what to say. I didn't know how to say it. And like I said earlier, I'm still learning. But it was like I heard God say, just say this. And this is almost all I said the very first time. I said, I am here for those who deal with taboo sin. And I started listing it and naming it. And that was almost all I said. And so many men came to me and said, thank you for saying it. Because we go to a

men's conference and they talk about, you know, alcohol, and they talk about drugs and they talk about depression and they talk about, but they don't even say this. And some men are like, just say it, please say it. Tell me that I can be free from it. That's something people that don't have the experience, don't know how powerful that is. What you're saying's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a,

it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a that it's so shameful. We can't even mention it. You know, when something's not mentioned that just automatically will compound shame in someone's life. I just write. So this is a kind of an adjacent conversation, but there is, and it's going to blow up a can of worms here, but people in the next few podcasts, people are going to be a little more informed on this, but there is a, a specific kind of gender dysphoria called auto-gynophilia. It is not, well, there's, there's various ways to describe it. It is a biological male who is attracted to the idea of being a female and it can even have like a sexual component to like there, there could be a, a, a, a, um, a sexual desire to want to be a woman.

Auto means self, kind of feel you love of women to love of oneself as a woman. It's different than what people would think of when they think of like a trans experience, like, like a, like a man who in every way feels like a woman. It's, it's different than that. And there's been a decent amount of research on it, but it's very taboo. But brother, I, there are a lot, a lot of guys that struggle with this unwanted, just got an email yesterday, another one, yet another one. Talk to a guy who is a Christian who struggles with this. He's, he's found a good deal of freedom from it. But you know, cross dressing and private doesn't know why he has this desire, doesn't want to act on it, whatever. Typically they're always married

men married to women. Like they might even have a really decent marriage, but they have this internal struggle that they can't even talk about. A friend of mine, a guy I'm getting to know, he says, once he shared a story, he had like a hundred people reach out to him. Pastors, Christian missionary. I mean, just like saying I can, I, first of all, I'd never heard of anybody else that had this experience because no one talks about it. I mean, think about it. It's just a very, can be a very shameful thing to talk about. But the fact that they hear somebody say, I also experienced this or there is a term for even there's a term for auto gonna feel, Oh my God. So this is a thing. It's not like I'm some freak of nature. I'm just human with a human experience that

other people have, you know, so anyway, that that people might have more questions and answers and everything I just said right now. But yeah, but just, just the idea of just talking about it is such a massive first step. So I hope, I hope the pastors and leaders really, really take that tar. Cause I still talk to churches that even in 2024, like we're not going to talk about this. Like, what do you mean? This isn't like 1989. I know. Because if, because if you don't talk about it, the only conversation though here would be outside of, you know, the church and this is just like with anything else,

right? You know, so we don't talk about sex, which we need to talk about that more, just sex period. You know, we're left to learn about it outside of the safe space of the church. And yeah, it doesn't mean that anybody outside of the church is misinforming, but there's a greater possibility of receiving misinformation or leaning more so towards that affirming, information or leaning more so towards that affirming, you know, information. And, and we have to have the conversation. We just, we, we have to talk about it, man, because people can't be free if we don't talk about it. Do you see, are you seeing on the affirming piece within more African-American dominant churches, do you see churches going affirming or, or the opposite like they are the silence in many cases is affirming. You know, we, we know that so and

so are not just roommates, right? We, we know that, you know, they, you know, these people are not just friends. We know that they leave church and they go to said city to, you know, be in the gay bar all day. We know this. We know this. We're not, we're not blind to it. And in many cases, if you have private conversations, because many of them don't ever look at the scripture, it's really based off of emotion and experience and not having the word of God as the final governing authority. It's like, it's okay, baby, be who you are. You ain't got to tell nobody. Don't worry about it. Just don't say it out loud in the church. Come sing, come preach, come prophesy, but just don't be loud with it.

And so there's an affirmation of it, but in a very silent secret way, I was gonna say, people are encouraged to keep it on the DL, but people kind of, a lot of people kind of know like just the unspoken thing that people generally are aware that in many cases, people know not, not, not everybody who deals with a same-sex attraction is feminine or you know what in that world they'll say suspect like you can't just look at everybody who deals with it and know that they deal with it and even if you and even if they even if you can tell you don't know where they are on the spectrum you don't know if they're active you don't know you know right um but there are cases where we know, right?

We just know. And I've heard even in the mentorship group, this one guy was involved with pastors and he said that he was told by these pastors like, don't out, but don't try to be straight. Don't try not to be this, but just don't be at loud. And this is even in, you know, higher ranking spaces. Uh, and, uh, and it's calming.

It's very common. Um, I think, uh, in many cases, if you're gifted, don't matter what you do. Homosexual, homosexual womanizer doesn't matter. Bring that gift in here. Just don't be loud with your sin. homosexual, womanizer, doesn't matter. Bring that gift in here. Just don't be loud with your sin. Wow. Have you got asked to speak at a lot of churches now? No, I haven't because it's... So when I post about it, I get a lot of response, but I normally get a lot of response from people who's impacted by it. A lot of pastors and stuff are silent on social media, but they see me on the side and want to have a long conversation, you know. I'm just, what you're

doing is just so awesome. It's so great. It's so needed, but they won't say that on social media, and they won't invite me to their churches, you know. So, I haven't gotten a lot of invitations just yet. You know, I'm okay with that. I really love what I'm doing with the mentorship group. I like that hands-on interaction and whatnot. And if God opens the door for me to come and share, I'm willing to share. All I want to do, man, is just contribute to the conversation and just open the door and space for conversation and perhaps help people to create spaces for the conversation so that we can move towards healing. I'm so let's go back to the brand new you, this mentorship program you started. It does

like I, I a hundred percent agree, man. You can't, you know, 18, 20 people. I think that's a good, that's the max, you know, to make it helpful and effective and, and, and meaningful and honest. Um, the man, my heart goes out to all the people that there's no space for them to get in. Is there, um, is there a way, is it just, is there a way to enable? Yeah. So one, one common thread that we heard when the group started was that people had reservations because they had a similar but it ended up being very pretty. So they would get in these spaces but themselves in a relationship with someone that they'll find themselves, which I get and I understand, even in leadership, coming out of a thing, bro, you need the grace

of God to keep you to remain integral, right? Keep your hands off. There has to be boundaries in place. There has to be... I have counsel, right? to just ensure that the safety and integrity of myself and the individuals that are part of the group stays intact. And so I said that to say that what we're doing is we're having this beta experience while at the same time identifying leaders, identifying people that we believe that can be trusted to replicate this. And in hopes that over time we'll be able to have many groups and many communities that are actually safe where men can have this type of community and experience. That's great. Yeah. So your vision is to, yeah, have multiple groups, multiple leaders and keep expanding it.

Only because there's so many people who want help, who want mentorship. It's a lot of them. Now, one thing we did was we started a podcast. It's called Brand New You Podcast. And so for the people who registered, we gave them the link so that they can watch it live and kind of maybe even ask questions while we're doing the live.

So that way they'll have a touch point with us until we're able to expand and do something where they can be engaged. That's awesome. If people listening, I'm sure, I'm sure some are going to want to reach out to you or hear more about all this. Can you tell us where they can find you? Yeah. So if you go to my Instagram, which is our Robinson, I N T L again, that's our Robinson, I N T L. If you go there, my link tree is in my bio. And so all of the information to set up, there'll be a, a waiting list that you can sign up on so that you can receive the information when we open up for the next cohort

and for some upcoming things that we're having as well. Also August 31st, we are having our first in-person session. So we're gonna be in person with a group of about 40 guys. And- Where's that at? Fayetteville, Georgia at Kite Man manner, which is owned by Ezekiel. Um, it's one of his new content creation spaces. And so, um, yeah, so we're going to be there and, um, and that'll be the first in-person

session. And is that, that's, he said that's capped at, he said 40 or is it capped at 40? We already have 23 registered. Okay. Well, Reginald, man, this is a man. I just thank you for your honesty, your faithfulness, your authenticity. I, um, yeah, I just really appreciate you. And it's really a powerful, powerful to see the work that God's done in your life. And I do pray that, yeah, I pray that you, well, I typically don't like to see people

get platforms that expand and everything. Cause usually that just is damaging. And I hope it's not true for you, but I do hope that your influence becomes known because so many other people I think would really, really benefit from being part of the sphere you've created. So man, grateful for the work you're doing now. Thank you so much for your encouragement. You know, this is a new space for me, but you know, I'm up for the challenge. And I appreciate you seeing the potential enough to create the space for me to share here.

Absolutely. I want to encourage people to go check you out in your Instagram page. I appreciate it. Awesome, man. Thanks for coming on the show. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.