Theology in the Raw - How to Tell the Truth: Preston Perry

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

Preston Perry is a poet, performance artist, teacher, and apologist from Chicago. Preston’s writing and teaching has been featured on ministry platforms such as The Gospel Coalition, the Poets in Autumn Tour, and Legacy Disciple.  Preston is co-host, with his wife Jackie Hill Perry, of the popular podcast With the Perrys. He created Bold Apparel and the YouTube channel Apologetics with Preston Perry in order to engage the public in theological discourse. Preston just released his first book, How to Tell the Truth: The Story of How God Saved Me to Win Hearts—Not Just Arguments, which is a fantastic book about evangelism and apologetics and forms the basis for our conversation. Order How to Tell the Truth by Preston Perry today! https://www.tyndale.com/p/how-to-tell-the-truth/9781496466891 Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of theology in the raw. My guest today is Preston Perry, the dude with an awesome first name, who is a poet, performing artist, teacher and apologist from Chicago. Preston is the cohost with his wife, Jackie Hill of the popular podcast called with the Perry's. He created bold apparel and the YouTube channel apologetics with Preston Perry in order to engage the public in theological discourse. And Preston recently released a fantastic book on evangelism and apologetics called, How to Tell the Truth, the Story of How God Saved Me to Win Hearts, Not Just Arguments. And his book forms the topic of our conversation. So, if you are like me and you struggle, yes, I struggle with sharing my faith,

then I highly recommend Preston's book. It's really super readable, down to earth, humble, wise, engaging, just very well written. And I think you'll also be both encouraged and challenged by our conversation. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only Preston Perry. Preston Perry. Love the name. First of all, and thanks for coming on the all general. Yeah, this is me. You're the, you're the first Preston I've had on. So, Oh, really? Is that true? A lot of us out here. I think, I think that you're, you're the first person that's had me on. So well, I had you on my podcast, but yeah, you're the first person that's had me on. So well, I had you on my podcast, but yeah, you're the first person that's had me on their podcast.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, man, I, I did, I got an early copy of your book, how to tell the truth. And I, I gotta be honest. I, I am one of those people who sharing my faith does not come naturally. I don't enjoy it. I don't think I'm good at it. I don't even think I'm like, I should have said this or that, you know? And so I was a little nervous to read your book. I'm like, am I just going to feel, am I just going to read a book and just feel guilty the whole time? Or am I going to get educated and, and I'm like, I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm just going to be like, I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm just going to be like, I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm just going to be like, I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm just going to be like, I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm just going to be like, am I just going to feel, am I just going to read a book and just feel guilty the whole time? Or am I going to get educated and encouraged?

And it was deaf. It's your book is definitely the latter. I love, I love the way you approached a really tough topic. So for those who, you know, haven't read the book, you tell your story, but can you go back and kind of retell your story? Like, how did your kind of faith conversion play into your real passion and ability to want to share your faith well? 11 Yeah, man. I think God, in His sovereignty, I think He knew how, in a lot of ways, He made me. And I also talk about in the book, the God who led me to Christ was an evangelist. I was led to Christ by somebody who modeled what it looked like to love your neighbor and to go out and talk to people and to have a heart for the community and to start conversations in very organic, real life. Just in him doing

life, he just always wanted to, like, reach out to the community and go back into the communities that he came from and give the gospel. So I think being discipled under that early, I think it helped cultivate the evangelists in me and the desire to want to see people who don't know Jesus know Jesus. So for me, it was just from early on, I think I just had a desire to just share my faith with people, especially being in environments where I feel like people don't hear the gospel often. And I think it was a reflection of just my own testimony in life, of searching for God and not knowing what to believe and seeing Christians be a particular way and being turned off by Christians. And when I finally got led to Christ by the guy in the book, Gary Brown, I remember when

I became a Christian thinking like, man, I wish Gary would have came in my life five years ago and my life probably wouldn't have been as hard as it was. And if somebody just would have came and gave me the truth of the gospel in a way that I can receive it. And so for me, I just always had that heart to want to be for people what I wish I had. And I know that God is sovereign.

Me being drawn to the Lord at the time that I was led to Christ, it was all God's divine providence and sovereignty. But I just said, man, I've always had that, what if I can tell a clear gospel presentation or give somebody the truth of the gospel that relates directly to them. And it's the first time it's ever happened. I just always looked at it as a privilege. And so just want to encourage Christians from all walks of life, even if you think that you're a natural evangelist or not, to know that you can do it and to empower you to do it with whatever context that you come from.

You told me, Preston, though, you said you like halfway through the book. I don't think you probably got to like chapter, I think six or seven is called Close to Home. That's probably the chapter that you will like the most because it talks about just evangelizing how God uniquely made you, how you don't have to be like a Preston or Billy Graham. Because God is going to use all of us how he has uniquely made us. Right. And so if he made us all different, he doesn't want us to, he doesn't want our evangelists and to all look the same. Right. That's a good, so, so, cause for you,

it does for whatever reason, it, it, it seems to come naturally. Like you even say earlier on the book, like you can't help, but to share your faith, you know, almost like, like for me, like, like I love to eat pizza. Like it doesn't, I don't have to like remind myself if it's there, I'll eat it and I'll eat too much, you know, for you. And it seems like it's like, yeah, it's just, it's, it's, it's going to be, it's more natural for you to share your faith than not share your faith. That's unique. Right? I mean, not everybody's wired that way. And I hear you saying you don't need, you don't, we shouldn't all expect to be that in order to still be in a, because we're all called evangelized like that. Matthew 28, I mean, you can't get around that. Like we're all called

to make disciples. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so, so I'm a spoil a little part. I'm a spoil a part in the book that you haven't got to. And I think it haven't got to. I think it's in chapter six. I'll talk about, well, I give this story about me and Jackie, my wife Jackie, we're in the airport leaving Virginia, heading back to Atlanta. We have like 40 minutes before the flight leaves, and I see two Jehovah's Witnesses in the airport at a stand. Because the way I'm wired, I'm like, babe, I'm about to go talk to these Jehovah's Witnesses. I'll go over there and have a good conversation with Jehovah's Witnesses. But before I walk over there, Jackie was like, okay, I'm about to go get something to eat.

Peace. Right? She chunks the deuces and she just goes and gets something to eat. I had a great conversation with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I leave the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I go to the restaurant where Jackie was at, and I find Jackie at the table with the waitress with her head down praying with the waitress. And I'm like, wow. And so my wife is not like me.

She's not like the type of person that would go up to strangers and give the gospel. She has social anxiety. She's introverted, all the things, right? She's just completely different than me. But so I go to the restaurant and I say, in my mind, I say, what's going on here? How did my introverted wife end up praying with his waitress? And so afterwards, my wife explains to me, she's like, the waitress asks us who she's ordering food for.

She ordered food for two. She said, I'm ordering food for my husband. Where's your husband? He's over there talking to Jehovah's Witnesses. And then the waitress goes, well, I used to be a Jehovah's Witness and they excommunicated me and I'm done with religion. I've been done with religion ever since. And so Jackie then was able to give the gospel to her through opportunity. And so the reason why I put that story in the book is to show people that boldness is not doing what men are afraid to do. Boldness

is more about obedience to God than it is being fearless before men. And so I think when people think about evangelism, they think about, I have to be courageous and just walk up to strangers and get over my fears. Like no, I think God in his wisdom has made us all uniquely. Like he made us, you know. And so I think when evangelism, some people are called to fish and some people are called to prepare the fish and some people are called to serve the fish. I think it all goes in line with us being disciple makers, right? Making disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name

of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Because I think what that scripture means in Matthew 28 when it says, baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it's like, no, baptize people in the character of the Triune Godhead, in the character of God. That looks different. That looks different for everybody. I don't want people to read the book. This is the reason why I put stories in the books.

I want to encourage people who feel like they built like me to learn how to do it in loving, respectful, gentle ways. But I also want to encourage the person who's not the type of person who will go out in the street and talk to strangers and know that you have a place to give the gospel to your family members, to give the gospel to your friends, to be obedient when God gives you opportunities in your life. You talk a lot about, I mean, I think the subtitles even, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The story of how God saved me to win hearts, not just arguments, but that, that, that, that theme is woven throughout the book that I'm a bread, a little more than half of it now when not just winning arguments, but winning

hearts. Can you give us maybe some examples or unpack? Like what does that look like? What does it look like to try to just win an argument versus trying to win hearts? Because in the book you do still give a response. It's the first Peter three, right? It's, it's have, have a reason for the defense and apologia for the hope that's within you. So, so given responses to arguments is maybe part of what we do, but if all you do is winning arguments and not winning hearts, that's not evangelism. What's the difference there? How does that, what does that look like? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because, Because the first Peter 3.15 says, in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy. And then it says, always being prepared to make a

defense, which is the apologetic or the apology part, right? Always being prepared to make a defense for anyone who asks you for the reason for the hope that is in you. But then it goes on to say, but yet do it with gentleness and respect. And then it goes on to say, but having a good conscience so those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. And so, when we look at that scripture, we see that the defense is in the middle of that text, but what it's sandwiched around is one, it first starts off with a heart that honors the Lord as holy. Honor Christ the Lord as holy, right? It was very strategic for the author to say,

in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy. So if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, if you believe that he's the Lord, Lord of all, if you believe that he's holy, set apart, right? We honor him in that way, right? With the way you show up, with the way you love Him, with the way you love His people, right? So it first has to start with the heart that honors Christ.

That's right. And so, you know, which is the reason why I say in the book, apologetics is more of a heart issue than an intellectual issue. It's a heart issue. So sometimes when we learn about a whole bunch of knowledge and a whole bunch of information, we can only remain here and forget that it actually starts here. Then it says, be prepared to make a defense.

So give that apologetic argument when the time calls for it. But then it goes on right back to conduct, but do it with gentleness and respect. And so I think what it looks like to answer your question, you know, one time I was, I'm not going to say the guy's name, but I was watching this evangelism video on YouTube and this guy was outside of a Planned Parenthood kind of meeting and he was out there giving the gospel to these women who, you know, wanted to abort their babies. And, you know, he was saying a lot of things that I personally agree with biblically, like, you know, life starts with conception. You know, people know that I love children, right? And so like, you know, and I understood that,

but I remember when he ran up to one lady and started to talk with her and she said, well, I got raped, should I keep my child? And the first thing that he responded and said, is it your baby's fault that you got raped? Oh gosh. It's like, whoa. thing that he responded and said, is it your baby's fault that you got raped? Whoa. Whoa. Right? And I think, to be gracious to him, right? First, right? I think that he wasn't trying to be cruel. I think he just went out there with a preplanned argument for every rebuttal, and he stuck

to that, and he didn't listen well, right? And he didn't hear a cry, right? And so one of the things that I said in the book that every heart has a cry. A lot of times you have to ask the right questions to hear it, right? And so she wasn't trying to give him a, throw him a softball for him to minister to her, but she did. And so, the way he could have ministered to her, it could have been way better if he just would have stopped and said, you know what? I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that that happened to you. You know, man, God, and you know what? The God that I serve, he hates that that happened to you. You know what? And the God that I serve saw you, you know, and he sees you and he cares about you. And you know what? And I also believe that he cares about this baby. And it looks, it looks like, you know, dead now. It looks hopeless now, but I believe

that if you put your hope in Jesus, man, in the future, there can be hope for you and your child, right? I know people that was a product of, you know, their mother almost aborted them. Personally, my mother-in-law almost aborted my wife. You know what I mean? And so, sharing stories like that, you like that would just be powerful wherever you land. So I think that's an example of people wanting to win arguments and not hearts. She gave you her heart on a platter in a way and you dropped it. So I think that listening well, asking great questions and responding, being sensitive to respond well when people share

some deep sentiments of their hearts. So this is so, I was gonna ask you, you did it before I even asked you, like what would you have done in that situation? So that, yeah, that's gonna open up her heart way more than just shutting down the argument, man. That's a, but that's our tendency, right? You'll, you'll, especially if you're more rational, more analytical, you just are constantly on that kind of wavelength, right? Like if you hear

falsehood, you rebuke the falsehood and just miss the person. What are some big, so, so I would ask you like, what are some big, like main principles that you want to help people understand as we go into kind of evangelism, especially, you know, in the public arena, people you don't know, you're maybe nervous, you know, what are some big picture principles? You already said, listen well, ask good questions. What are some other things you help people to do? Yeah, to not find your identity and knowledge, but the person of Jesus. I think I said in the book, when you find your identity and the information you know, and not the guy you know, you will end up treating people like projects and not image

bearers. And I think a lot of times people find a lot of identity in all the information that they are obtained and we stop treating people like people and we forget how to lead with our humanity and lead with vulnerability. I really think that the world needs to see intellectual Christians who are studied lead with their humanity to be humble,

to not just be like these robotic Christians who are just spewing what they know like weapons. But it's like, no, how can we show up? Like Jesus showed up in his humanity in order to properly reveal what he knew, and so people will receive it, right? Because if we give the truth, if we have the truth, which that's an important factor of giving the gospel, is actually knowing the gospel and having truth. You know, you can't give truth until you have it, but once you have it, the way you deliver

it matters. And a lot of times in our culture, I think we see people giving truth in garbage bags and not only dignified platters, and then we accuse people of rejecting the truth. It's like, no, they didn't reject the truth, they just rejected the way you gave it to them. Like you gave it to them in a jerkish way. And so I think Jesus was wise in telling the disciples, go out in tubes and preach the gospel, but be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Right? And so he's saying, discern the ways in which you go out and give truth to people. Don't just go out there just giving the truth any way you want to. I do think that there needs to be a level of tact, of wisdom, of love, of care, of gentleness,

but also to be bold. I think sometimes people think that boldness is rudeness. You cannot dishonor people in your attempt to honor God. It's kind of like an oxymoron. God says, how can you love me who you've never seen and hate your neighbor who you see every day? Right? And so they're intertwined.

And so how can we be bold in our stands, be bold in what we believe in, be courageous in what we believe that God is telling us to say, while at the same time honoring the people that's in front of us? And I believe that looking at the person of Jesus is the best way to do that, in my opinion, because I think that Jesus modeled both grace and truth in such a great way that I feel like if we look to the person of Jesus more, then we look to the information that we learned about Jesus. Because there's a difference between looking at the information we learned about Jesus and actually looking at the character, the person meditating on the person of Jesus Christ. And so when I go out, I try to meditate on him, not what I've learned about him,

because then I can kind of like want to honor God and kind of like my honor for people begins to kind of drift in the background. And then, you know, you look up and you end up talking to people like they're crazy. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah. How do you, real practically,

how do you start a conversation with a stranger, whether it's you just on the streets, you're in Starbucks, you're just... I get this question a lot, Preston. It's really not hard. I'll be like, you know, especially when I'm with the camera, you know, I never walk up to people who just put the camera in their face. The camera's down. Hey, my name is Preston. I'm in this community a lot. I have a YouTube channel, man, talking about spirituality, faith, religion, culture. You seem like an interesting person, man.

You seem cool. I love the way you dress. I think that you, I'm pretty sure you're brilliant. I would love to have a conversation with you. What would the conversation be about? Yeah, it'd be about my faith. I'm a Christian. Are you a Christian?

No, I'm an atheist. Oh, I would love to talk to you then. I mean, we talk to people like that on our channel all the time. Sure, I talk to you. Boom, the conversation. It's just as simple as that. It's not, you know, it isn't deep. It's just, I'm very straightforward.

I look them in the eyes. I learn their name before we start talking. I build some type of rapport for about, you know, five to 10 minutes to let them know, you know, my worldview. So they're not surprised about my worldview. Some people say no and some people say yes, but typically the people that say yes, they end up in a great conversation. Hey, friends, can I be honest with you about something? I really don't like sharing my faith.

I don't. It makes me nervous. I get all sweaty and anxious, and I feel like I'm just going to turn people away from Christianity if I open my mouth. This is why I was super nervous to read Preston Perry's new book, How to Tell the Truth. But I'm so glad that I did. Preston, the other Preston, he's so passionate about sharing his faith and he's really good at it. But he doesn't shame people or make people feel guilty if evangelism doesn't come naturally. Instead, in his book, How to Tell the Truth, Preston talks about all the mistakes he's made over the years and then offers some really super helpful tips on how to share your faith effectively. Like, he tells us to lead with genuine curiosity about the other person.

Don't just jump in and try to win an argument. Embody the love of Christ toward the person to show that you care more about them than simply showing them how wrong they are. So if you want to become a better evangelist, or even if you don't want to, the fact is you probably do need to, I highly, highly recommend reading Preston Perry's new book, How to Tell the Truth, because sharing our faith is not about winning arguments, it's about winning hearts. Hey friends, my book Exiles, The Church in the Shadow of Empire is out now. I am so excited and a bit nervous about the release of this book.

This is a topic I've been thinking about for many, many years and finally put pen to paper to write out all my thoughts. Specifically, I'm addressing the question, what is a Christian political identity? As members of Christ's global multi-ethnic, upside down kingdom scattered across the nations, how should we as members of that kingdom think through and interact with the various nations

that we are living under? So the book is basically a biblical theology of a Christian political identity. We look at the nation of Israel, we look at the exile of Israel, we look at several parts of the New Testament, the life and teaching of Jesus, several passages in the book of Acts, the letters of Paul, do a deep dive into 1 Peter and the book of Revelation, and then explore some contemporary points of application. So I would highly encourage you to check out my book, Exiles. And would love to hear what you think, whether it's whether you hate the book or love it, or still think it through

it. I'd love to hear what you think by dropping a review on Amazon or I don't know, post a blog, just, you know, ripping it to shreds. I don't really care. I would love for you to just wrestle with this really important topic in this really volatile political season that we're living in. in this really volatile political season that we're living in. Do most people want to have the, once they, once you kind of build that rapport, establish all that, say you're a Christian, you want to have a, do they want to engage more times than not? You know what I've learned? You know what I've learned? A lot of people are very cynical about the faith, the Christian faith, about Christians.

A lot of people are very like guarded. They think Christians are just going to knock them over their head with scriptures, you know. But one thing that I've learned, and I think it's just a tactic that I've learned, is that if I lead with curiosity, people have this idea that they will feel heard by me. And when people feel like they will feel heard, they'll be more willing to talk to you. And so, um, so before I have conversations, I asked them, you know, uh, have you ever been a part of the Christian church? Oh, okay.

Uh, what was your experience with the Christian church? Okay. What do you think the Christian church can change? I think the Christian church can change this. Yeah. Yeah. I have a lot to say about that. Yeah. think the Christian church can change? I think the Christian church can change this. Oh yeah, they'll have a lot to say about that. Right. Right. And so that's also a part of evangelism. Evangelism is not just revealing to people who God is, but it's also apologetics too. Like a defense of the worldview that you come from and the church that you come from. A lot of my apologetics arguments that I've had or conversation I've had in the streets was me defending not just religious doctrine, but the Christian church that I came from.

And it's an opportunity for me to show them another side of Christianity because a lot of people have had really bad encounters with church. I have a conversation on my channel where a woman worshiped her ancestors and she was just mean to me at first. But her story was she got raped when she was younger. The church told her that the rapist, her fault, blamed it on her, which is horrible, right? Because it wasn't her fault, right? And all of her uncles and aunties blamed her not having a relationship with her mom, and so she started to worship her ancestors, worshiped sage, and all of these things. And so I was able to be empathetic and to tell her, no, like this is what I believe God's heart for you is.

And also too, God hated that. She was like, well, you're the first person that ever told me that. Wow. And isn't that sad? That is sad. Isn't that sad that I was the first person that told her, no, your rape wasn't your fault.

God cared about what happened to you. He saw what happened to you and he's angry. Like he, not only does he not care, in the Bible says he's angry at what happened to you, he saw what happened to you, and he's angry. Not only does he not care, in the Bible he says he's angry at what happened to you because it's evil. But I believe that God is a greater option for you to worship in your ancestors. And let me show you why. Then I ended up telling her, because I couldn't relate to her as a man, saying, you know what? I was empathetic. I said, you know what? I cannot relate to you. And I'm not going to sit here and act like I can relate to you, because I can't.

But I have a wife that experienced molestation, right? Because I felt like the Lord was telling me at that time, Preston, she knows all of the scriptures. She just hates what she knows. So I had to find another vehicle to get to the gospel. So I told her, I said, you know what, I have a wife and she experienced sexual abuse when she was young. And as her husband, I've seen her struggle. Our marriage in some ways have struggled. I was very transparent, tried to leave with my humanity. And I was like, you know what?

And my wife, you know, ended up meeting Jesus one day and I saw her open up and then she ended up saying, well, how's your wife now? And that's the first sign. That's always the first time when I know that somebody who was originally defensive is opening up. It's when they start asking me genuine questions. Now, instead of her just being defensive, shooting down everything I'm saying,

now we found a place where we can relate. Now she's asking me genuine questions. As soon as she said, how's your wife doing now? That's a way for me to creatively give her the gospel through my wife's story. Oh, wow. God met my wife one day in her room. She had a real encounter with Jesus. God came and saved her heart. And she still struggles with what happened to her when she was younger, but pull up your phone. Look at my wife's books called Get a Girl to God.

Look what God did with her. God cared about what happened to her. And not only did he care, the Bible says that God will work out all things for the good of those who love him and will call it according to his purpose. And so even though that happened to my wife, right? God cared about it and he's using it for his glory because he loves you, because he loves her.

And he could do the same for you. And so like, you know? And so like, I think just knowing how to like pay attention to cues and to pay attention to the cry of people's hearts and being able to be sensitive when somebody expressed something that's really painful and just being sensitive to the Holy Spirit, I think, uh, can all help us be better evangelists and communicators of the gospel. And none of that would have happened if you didn't first demonstrate curiosity in who she was as a person, right? Like that. Absolutely.

Like that seems like is that that's always the starting point, isn't it? Absolutely. Preston is we're calling somebody else. I know it is absolutely. Absolutely. Preston. Cause it look at Jesus, Jesus models this for us so perfectly. When Jesus, do you think that Jesus acts the moment at the whale wears your husband because he didn't know, Do you think that Jesus asked the woman at the well, where's your husband? Because he didn't know. Or was he trying to help reveal something to her? And so asking good questions out of pure curiosity,

not asking questions for a response, but asking questions out of a pure curiosity is good because one, it makes people feel seen and heard. And when people feel seen and heard, they'll be more willing to talk to you. And so I always say this, asking good questions, people will teach you how to minister to them. They will show you, they'll give you a guideline of how to give them truth.

And so, and then when they start teaching you, then you know, okay, this is a door for me to give the gospel. This is a door for me to yada, yada, yada. But I think a lot of times we overthink it. We feel like we have to come in with this script. And it's like, no, just have a normal conversation just like you would do with anybody, but just find out creative ways to try to give truth and honesty. That's a lot less threatening for those of us who are maybe scared of traditional evangelism, or like, I'm just so nervous to share my faith

and whatever. But like, if you don't almost don't even think about like that, but just say, I want to get to know this person and look for opportunities to bring Jesus to bear on this normal conversation. It's not, because I think sometimes you feel like salespeople, that I hate sales. I would be the worst used car salesman.

And that's, I think sometimes my fear of evangelism is kind of wrapped up in that. I feel like I'm trying to sell something to somebody that's not asking for it, but that's just the wrong lens, right? I mean, that's not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, so I'm giving you all parts of my book.

I actually was a salesman for a long time. And I talked about how sales actually helped me be a better evangelist. And actually in that chapter, I believe I said, I said, I don't want you to think that I'm being a cheesy, I'm not cheesy, some sleazy salesman or whatever, because I know salespeople can kind of rub people the wrong way. But I do think that when I sold AT&T alarm systems, what I had to do is, I think the

best salesmen, some salesmen are sleazy, some salesmen are just, they just want to sell and they'll do and say anything. But I think the best salesmen actually, they get painted in the wrong light because the best salesmen are honest people who will not upsell you or overcharge you or sell you something that they feel like you don't need. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so, and so, and so in sales, I hope this makes sense.

Let me break this down. In sales, when I used to do sales, integrity actually made me more successful because you can be a good salesman, you can have the gift of gab and you can sell somebody something and later on they found out, man, I did not need this 100 batteries and three remotes with this TV. Right? And so, I'm never going back to this salesman again. But a salesman, at least with integrity, would get customers back and back and back.

And so, I do think when we give the gospel, the Bible tells us to be persuasive, right? The Bible says that Paul sat outside of the temples and pleaded with them and tried to persuade the people of the truth of the gospel. So it is a persuasiveness, right? The Bible tells us to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves. Dubs, not doves, but serpents are cunning and they're crafty, right? But it's about being crafty with the right intentions and pure motives, right? And so, if we have the truth of the gospel, I think it's important to find out creative ways to give people the truth of the gospel because we are trying to give them something that will set them free. I think

it looks different though. I don't think that it all has to look the same I don't think that people always have to be street evangelists, right? And later on in the book I talk about ministering to family and friends and co-workers and how sometimes that's a Slow cook, right? And so it is it is about being crafty. It is about being cunning It's nothing wrong with you know Putting something in somebody's lap to make them shoe on in hopes that they might come back and ask you a question. That's called craftiness, right? And so when you're in the streets, if you feel like you're called to just give the gospel when you're in grocery stores and stuff like

that, there is ways in which we can sell the character of God to make it look more appealing, to draw people in, you know? And so I do think that sometimes people do it the wrong way and it looks, it looks bad, but I don't think it's anything wrong with being crafty to give somebody something that they need. I think at the heart of it, this comes out in your book, like the main thing at the heart of it all is Jesus is the way, the truth and the life people do need Jesus. He is going to make their life better. You know, so I, if you actually believe, so it's like going back to the sales analogy, it's not like you're

selling them a junker and you know, it's a junker. It's like you're selling them an amazing, let's just say, use car that's way underpriced and is going to change your lives. A bad analogy. I'll just stop with the Jesus is a used car. But the prod, if you truly believe the product will bring joy and fulfillment and meaning and eternal life to their life. And you know that the heart of every person, that the, there's that longing, right? There's that hole in everybody's heart. The Augustine talks about that. And so know that the heart of every person that the, the, there's that longing, right? There's that hole in everybody's heart. The Augustine talks about that. And so in that sense, then it's not by definition, it is integrity. It only could become sleazy. If

you're using weird tactics to, to try to, yeah, to try to sell something that's almost like, you know, I do think that we need to be authentically us. And so, when I say sale, maybe sale is the wrong word because I think sale just automatically rubs people wrong. But I do think that I'm trying to offer them something and every person is different. And so some people have a particular type of church shirt. And I think the danger that we run into is not giving people the gospel and not trying to figure out how to give people the gospel based on what a person shows us.

It's like, no, like when I say sales, like if you feel led to give the gospel to your coworker, but there are some hurdles there, how can I figure out a way to give the gospel to her that is palatable, which you receive it? And so, I think God wants us, and I think God is honored when there is some required of, when it requires us to think and to ration and to reason with logic. And also empathy and sympathy and being compassionate about the things that they've been through. I think people need to see that.

But I think on our end, it's like, man, how can we go out and be wise as serpents as harmless as doves, like finding out creative ways to give people the gospel, if we feel called to do so. Do you find that most people you talk to have some kind of church hurt? When you ask, yeah, the majority have a church background on some level or experience as Christians that's not good. Or they just have like, just very, the church is very unattractive to them. They just feel

like Christians are just very judgmental people. They feel like Christians only care about the word of God. They don't care about people. They think all pastors are crooks, especially in the black community. And so, I think showing up with truth and grace and giving it to them in a way that they can receive it, but also being empathetic, I think helps reshape the way they think about Christians, even if they disagree. And so, I love the fact that I gave the gospel to that lady who worshiped the Ancestors. She was like, yeah, I don't really have good conversations with Christians. I don't really like Christians like that, but this is a good

conversation. You're my universal brother. Your energy is really good. That's what New Age people say. It's like, your energy, your energy. I'm like, no, you probably just feel the whole spirit. But yeah, I love showing them a different side of what they see, because even that's evangelism. And do you find it effective when you just admit like, yeah, I know some correct pastors too. And I'm like, not defending the church, but just saying, yeah, there's some messed up Christians. I do it all the time.

I share testimonies. I share testimonies about how when I was in church, my mom used to take me to church when I was younger, which was spotty. I'd been in growing up and going to church often, but when they did, I share stories about how the first Pentecostal church that I went to, they told my mom I had a demon and that rubbed me the wrong way because I was a very bad kid. And I wouldn't fall down when they prayed for me at the altar, so the guys said I had a demon. I shared real stories, and I said, man, I've been hurt by the church, but your experience with the church, we have

to be humbled and say it's a very small experience. The church is huge. Gosh, church is broad. And it wasn't until I gave my life to the Lord, where the Lord in its kindness led me to healthy versions of church, church communities that love people, that love God, that serve the community, and serve me and my family well. And I want to serve you well. There's any way that I've fed people out there. I've given food, I've given... I'm not trying to brag about the things that I've done, but I've tried to just give them a different point of view of the church people, church Christians that they've experienced, whether that's through social media or in

person. And so I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point.

And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point.

And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. And I think that's a good point. You share a brilliant, I mean the, my favorite chapter of the one, well, the one I just finished this morning, where you, where you actually, well, I almost spoil it for people, but just ongoing interaction. And when you're a young believer with this, Joe has witnessed guy who was kind of schooling you a little bit. Then you brought in all this ammunition. And I guess my question, I don't know. You need

you to retell that, but how should Christians approach, let's just say, for instance, a Jehovah's witness who, who, who could be really intimidating. Cause they have good arguments. What about this? What about that? And they kind of can sometimes control the conversation and, and that can be intimidating or people like, I don't know how to defend my faith. There's somebody that is like trained in how to win these arguments. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question. Well, the first thing that I'll say is, I think it's very important for us not to go into a conversation first seeking

to tear somebody else's faith down, more than we're looking to defend our own and to give truth to someone. So in the book, I share how I was basically looking to destroy his faith. So I researched all the things that I feel like that would, you know, like, tear him down the way that he made me feel tear down when he embarrassed me in front of the whole class. When I was a young believer, I think I was saved like five months. And I love to do him the same, but I didn't know how to share

my faith. And the reason why is because I did not know the key foundation of the essentials of the gospel, like, good yet, and I didn't know how to properly explain them. And so when he asked me how was Jesus as God, I didn't know how to point to that with Scripture. You know, when he asked me how was the Trinity true, I didn't know how to explain that using scripture. And so one, I think approaching one understanding, I think you shouldn't really seek to have a conversation with the Jehovah's Witness or LDS or Hebrew. If you don't have a somewhat understanding of what they believe, because you might be

a little confused. And sometimes I'm a big fan of having conversations with people not to necessarily respond, but to learn. Oh yeah. Because people will teach you what they believe if you're rooted in the gospel first, right? And if you're convinced that God has saved you. I don't want people out there giving the gospel to people and they're not even really convinced that they're Christian yet, right? And so, for me, I think learning the key foundation and essentials of the gospel, you know, who is Jesus?

Like, how did God reveal Himself to His creation through the person of the Son? How does the triune God of Scripture show up in the Scriptures? Like, how can we explain the Trinity not using, you know, metaphors that really, I think that really don't explain the Triune of God's Scripture, but using like Scripture to explain that, right? How can we explain to a Hebrew Israelite or a Muslim, they were saved by grace through faith, not by works? And that's not just them, just most religions believe that they are saved by works. And so what I found out is, man, like coming in, asking good questions like that, it's like, man, can I ask you a question?

How do you believe that we're saved? And it will always kind of mostly be tied to some type of work space salvation. And so learning how to properly explain that we're saved by grace through faith, believe it or not, it can be freeing. It can be very freeing to a person who's consistently working like how people did in the Old Testament,

right? You know, consistently working for God's favor, right? And so finding out, you know, what they think, how they think, you know, if you live in a community filled with Jehovah's Witnesses or Hebrew Israelites, finding out what they believe, learning how to explain the key foundation, essentials of the gospel, and learning how to give that in kind, gentle ways, I think is the best approach. Hey friends, if Theology in Ra has blessed or challenged you in any significant way, would you consider supporting the show financially? You can do so through Patreon at patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw.

All the information is in the show notes. You can support the show for as little as five bucks a month. And in doing so, you get access to all kinds of different premium content. And most of all, you just get access to the theology in the raw community. We have all kinds of awesome chats and messages back and forth. And it just, it means the world to us that you support the show. As the show has grown, so have all the expenses and all the work that goes into pulling it off.

So again, if you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology raw. And I just want to thank my, uh, the people that are, are already supporting the show. Thank you so much for keeping this show not only going, but also thriving. So patreon.com forward slash theology and rock. You talked about making the mistake of trying, like in your first attempt to try to like disprove the, you know, Jehovah's witness faith. Um, you, you tried to find dirt on its founder. I forgot who the founder was. You probably know the

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you, you saw that that wasn't actually effective at all. Would you say that that's pretty, is that your advice across the board? Like if you're interacting with somebody in a different faith tradition, is it usually ineffective to try to like discredit their founder or whatever? Or is that just- I think at first it can be because it seems as if like you're attacking my religion because you found some faulty things and one of our leaders a prophet or whatever. I think it can be ineffective because it can seem petty. And most people will tell you, which he told me in the book, I wrote in the book, he was like, Charles Tate Russell isn't our leader of God as I know. He's just a man that God used. And even though that's not necessarily all the way

true, he is a pivotal part of the Jehovah's Witnesses because in the 1800s he started something called the Watchtower and Track Society, which eventually became the Jehovah's Witnesses. And his doctrines in his early journals that he published every month was really the foundation of Jehovah's Witness teaching. But at the same time, it's like, one, I think if you lead with that, it's kind of like you just have some type of beef with our organization, you know? And so this is the reason why you're coming to me with this petty argument. But I think that if you hold them to a standard, which is the Holy Bible, and you compare the Bible to the teachings, I think then they see, I think it's easier for them

to see clear contradictions. And so, you know, if I asked them, for example, I was like, man, I'm Christian, I have some questions, you know, some genuine questions. I always tell people, you don't have to talk to me. You know, we can talk, you know? Okay, cool. Now that you said we can talk, I have some genuine questions. You know, I've heard Jehovah's Witnesses refer to Jesus as Michael the Archangel, you know, and I believe that He is not Michael the Archangel. I believe that He's the eternal God, the pre-existing God. Who do you believe? Well, we believe that He's Michael the Archangel because of this, you know? And so, I said, okay, so if you believe that He's Michael the Archangel

because of this, not throwing scripture at them, can you answer this question for me? I phrase everything as a question, right? Can you answer this question to me? Hebrews 1, song of the fifth verse, God says, for which of the angels did I ever say, You are my son, today I have begotten you? Or I should be to him a father and he should be to him a son. But when he brings his firstborn into the world, he says, let all God's angels worship

him. He gives his angels wings and his ministers a flame of fire. But of the son, he says, your throne, O God, is forever and ever and the scepter of your rightness is the scepter of your kingdom." So I say, man, right here, you know, we see that Jesus has never called an angel a son, but he consistently refers to Jesus as the only begotten Son of God. So how can this be? A lot of times they just look at the passage. I don't want them to convert right there. Really?

I just want to give them questions that they could just go home and ponder about. That's all I want to do. I just want to plant seeds. That's all I want to do. In the same way, in the first chapter I talked about, I heard the gospel for the first time in the house church. And I didn't give my life to the Lord, but one of the things I said that I became keenly aware of my sin and that God used that seed to later draw me to the faith. And so I do think that evangelists,

I think sometimes we think that like, oh, we have to like win an argument. It's like, no, you have to just plant a seed and leave a lot of the times. And know the gospel is powerful, the truth is powerful. God will water that seed and that seed can go to go. So I leave encouraged knowing that, man, maybe I love when people look like I asked a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon or Hebrew Israelite a question like that. And they look at that scripture and they don't have anything to say. Not because it made me feel good. Okay. Not because it

made me feel like I stumped them because I'm not trying to stump them. I'm trying to make them think about something that they never thought about before. And so I just want them to leave wrestling. That's it. A wrestler was good enough for me. That takes the pressure off. Cause if you feel like you have to seal the deal and if you don't, if you're not baptizing them at the end of the conversation, then you didn't succeed. You're saying that's not obviously that. Yeah, sure. That'd be great, but that's not the ultimate. That's not, it should be your goal going in. Nope. I really think that God wants to raise up a generation of evangelists who are okay with being seed planters. I think the

church has conditioned us to want right now results. And that's the reason why we do things like praise altar calls. Look what God did. These people came down and said, what must I do to be saved? And I don't think that's wrong. I think it speaks to the expectation we have for God to respond. I think that it speaks to the expectation we have for God to respond. I think in a lot of ways it's indicative to our faith. But at the same time, I think that that's not always the reality. That God saw... The reason why I put my story in the book is because I wanted to show people that God sovereignly in his divine problem, like he chased me until he had me. And by using people in my lives,

and I just wanna encourage people to know that if we can just be that same seed planter, if we can just be used, you don't have to be the person who gives somebody the gospel and them to fall down and say, what must I do to be saved? And give their life a little right hand in the air. Can you be content and also be happy and rejoice in the fact that you

played a part in somebody's salvation story? You know? And so that's one of the things that I wanted to kind of communicate to the book. Can you talk about, uh, what is a Hebrew Israelite? Us white people typically don't encounter to me Hebrew Israelites. Well, that, the way I, yeah. Like you said, in large black communities, very, very, is growing in popularity. It's very common. It's growing like crazy. I believe that the Hebrew Israelites will surpass their own track to surpass the nation of Islam in a lot of ways. So they're just a growing community, a lot of popular, influential people and black people in music and sports are Hebrew Israelites.

Like Kyrie Irvin, he's a Hebrew Israelite. Kendrick Lamar, he's a Hebrew Israelite. Oh, I didn't know that. And so, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kendrick Lamar had it all in his songs and stuff like that. So essentially what a Hebrew Israelite is, it's a group of religious men, particularly men of color, who believe that they are the lost children of Israel, that they are descendants of David.

And so there's a scripture in Deuteronomy where it talks about the people in Israel will be shipped, will be put on ships and then scattered throughout the earth. They believe, they translate that scripture that happened years ago as a metaphor for the transatlantic slave trade, where black people were taking from the shores of Africa and sold into slavery in Europe and America when we ended up, you know, on the shores of Africa and sold into slavery in Europe and America when we ended up on the shores of America in 1619. Essentially, what they believe is the people that the Israelites were brought to Africa on ships and those Israelites were sold into slavery by other Africans. So other Africans sold them to white people. And so essentially what you have, you have a whole bunch of African

Americans, some Native Americans who believe that they are the lost Shalom Israels. So they don't believe that they're West African descent like I do. So I did my DNA test and I'm clearly, my people clearly came from Nigeria, Ghana, the Ivory Coast, West Africa. They will tell you that the United States government has rigged DNA tests and they believe that they are the lost children of Israel. They will tell you that salvation is only for ethnic Israel. So if you're not ethnic Israel, you cannot be saved. The white man cannot be saved. Asians cannot be saved. Only ethnic Israel. They would say that Africans, not all camps, not all Hebrews would like camps, but a lot of them would say Africans would not inherit the kingdom of God for selling them into slavery.

But some of them can be grafted in if they repent to Yahweh for what they have done. Well, the ironic thing is I think a lot, not I think, I know a lot of these men are African Americans. They just think that they're ethnic Israel. And so they believe that the United States have lots to do with their identity. So they show very angry and mad. So this is one of the reasons why I tell people, one time this guy got mad at me, white evangelical, he got mad at me and said, Preston, stop talking about urban apologetics.

Stop separating it. And then he starts talking about all of this critical race stuff. And I hate when my white brothers and sisters do that because they don't really understand the tall taz that black apologists have with doing urban apologetics with these black religions. Because when we do life with them and when we try to engage them with the gospel, we have to understand that it's not just merely a theological argument, it is very much a social one. And so when we talk to Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, it's just all theology. But when you come to them, they think that you're coming at their whole identity, because their religion

is deeply rooted in their ethnic background, they believe. And so urban apologetics is different than other apologetics in their way. And so that's the reason why we say urban, right? Because it does look different. So the Hebrew Israelites are people who just believe that they're ethnic Israel and only they will inherit the kingdom of God, not Gentiles in the rest of the world. So they wouldn't be trying to convert people like me, right? Cause I don't think I could be,

like could I become a Hebrew Israelite as a white dude? Or is that- No, they will come, no, no, no. You can't be, you can't be for a lot of Hebrew is like camps. You can't be, you can never be a Hebrew is alive because you're not like God did not predestine you to be Israelite. And so they believe that they will call you the, uh, the Edomite, which means the devil. They will say that you are the devil, that your people have done nothing but trying to destroy black people for years. Yeah. And they would just talk about just how much hardship and pain that the white man has brought on black people.

And so that's why you can't talk to him about doctrine, theology. And they, they, a lot of them will debate, you know, why Christian scholars, I've seen that a lot, but they definitely don't respect them. They just debate them to show them that they're wrong and that they are not Christians. And so had a, had a lot of, you know, encounters with heberis relates in the past. It's always interesting. Should I even like, yeah. Is it, would it even be worth me if I see a bunch on this, you know, they got their signs out or whatever, like, and it's, I mean, I live in Idaho. I'm pretty sure they don't exist in. Like what I would you say Preston, you shouldn't, you should probably just like, let me, let me take care of these guys. You know, or like would there be any, like benefit in me encountering them?

I think I would encourage any man, right? One, Hebrew Israelites don't believe that they should have theological conversations with women, black or white, or Asian, no women. They don't believe that women should be talking about scripture. Most camps, most Hebrews like camps don't. But they'll talk to men, they'll probably talk to you in a very degrading way because they believe that the white man is corrupt and a devil and they use slavery and Jim Crow South and not letting black people vote. And they get really upset when black people defend all white brothers and sisters in the faith.

They say, oh, you guys are Uncle Tom's and slave of the white man's religion and stuff like that. So it gets really hectic. And so in the black community, the black people who follow me, that's probably the number one question is how do I give the gospel to Hebrew Israelites? Because they're interrupting church services around the country. Really? Wow. They're coming church services around the country. Really? Wow.

They're coming, yeah. I mean, we had a conference, me and Jackie did a conference in Philadelphia with a guy named Eric Mason, an amazing apologist. And the Hebrew Israelites, they came and tried to crash the whole conference. They stood outside for hours, did live streams about how we're in there, doing urban apologetics. We know they're in there talking about the Hebrew Israelites. They're out there and there. There's white people in there worshiping with them. It was a task. I think a lot of the Christian world don't know about these things that be going on. But black Christians who try to

be faithful to God and the scriptures, we deal with this a lot. And so me and Jackie literally had to go in through the basement because the Hebrew Israelites blocked the front of the building. It's wild. Yeah, it's crazy, right? Can I say this real quick? I know I've been talking to Ramlin. I just like talking to you, Preston. A lot of when these race issues come up, I think it's really important for Christians to understand what other people go through and to understand different worldviews in the Christian faith. Because I remember when I was building with these Hebrew Israelites and some stuff came

up about police brutality and stuff like that. I was gaining some traction with a couple of Hebrew Israelites. I remember a post came up or whatever when I was just like, man, I experienced police brutality before. I remember it was during the political season, I guess it was the wrong time to talk about that. I remember it was a slew of comments on my page of just white, hyper conservative

white Christians just bashing me. And I'm like, what? I didn't tell nobody to vote for anybody. I'm just talking about my experience, but all they care about is a position. Then hearing somebody's testimony. And the next time I ran up on those Hebrew Israelites, they pulled up their post and they said, man, bro, the stuff that you say, but this is the church you want us to be a part of. Oh my gosh.

You can't even share your experience as a black man. These are the Christians that you want us to be a part of? Like, are you serious? Like, bro, like you be saying some good stuff. And I felt like I lost ground with them. I was like, oh my, I was like, they're not representative of every Christian, yada, yada, yada.

And so I think when, even when we say things, when you hear black Christians saying things from a urban context, you shouldn't take it personal because we're not just trying to attack white people. We have a particular type of loss of black people in our community that you have no context for. And if you have greater understanding of what we go through in the black community, you will have more grades and you won't take everything so personal. That is a hundred percent sense. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've heard friends of mine who pastor more urban context, more multi-ethnic context that it's almost the same thing. Like, like when they hear suburban churches, you know, the only time they talk about race is

criticizing critical race theory. They said that just stunts our evangelistic opportunities in a more urban context when they hear our white sister churches out there, largely white, you know, speaking. They just don't, you don't get how that just interrupts the gospel going forward in our context. Even if it causes, even if you had good intellectual things to say, it's like, dude, that's not, it's just a terrible missionary. Like it's just, you're not, you're not reading the situation. Well, that's hurtful, man. I, I, I, I, that I grieve that man. That's, that's a good re well for everybody listening, good reminder, like your social media comments, dude, like just be, be careful, be careful. The lots of people are looking on. Well, dude, thanks so much for being on theology in a raw. I'll hold up my copy here. Again, I got the pre

copy here. You got the hard copy of the hardback of like awesome metaphors and stuff, the way you tell your story. And I love that you do, you weave your story in and out through everything. Like this is just like a dry day. Like, you know, you're like, I'm going to be a poet. I'm going to be a poet. I'm going to be a poet. I'm going to be a poet. I'm going to be a poet. I'm going to be a poet. I'm going to be a poet. I'm going to be a poet. I'm going to be a poet. your story in and out through everything. Like this is just like a dry textbook of chapter one, how to do it like that. I just, I wouldn't be engaged, dude, but I, I'm engaged because your story. Yeah. I was inspired by Toni Morrison when she said when she, when she did a panel and somebody was like, why do you write the books? And she was like, you know, I think every author should write the book

that they want to read. And I'm a, I love theology. I love giving the gospel, but I'm also a creator. And so sometimes I'll be reading books and I'm like, man, I want to read something that's creative that feeds me theologically. And so that's the reason why I wrote the book that way. I wanted to teach theological truths, but in creative ways that would cast vision and

allow people to see and dream and to see themselves through my story. And so I learned that way. But I also think that every Christian can pick it up and take something from it while at the same time being you know, being inspired by language and stuff like that. So, you know, that's what I've tried to do, man. So I'm glad you enjoyed it, man. It's an honor. Seriously. It's good stuff, man. I'm excited to finish it, man. Well, thanks again, man. Appreciate you. All right, bro. Thanks, man. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.