Theology in the Raw - Humility, Christian Leadership, and Slavery in the New Testament: Dr. Dennis Edwards

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

Dr. Dennis Edwards (PhD in Biblical Studies from the Catholic University of America) serves as the Vice President for Church Relations and Dean of North Park Seminary in Chicago. He’s an ordained minister in the Evangelical Covenant Church and is the author of several books including his recently released Humility Illuminated: The Biblical Path Back to Christian Character. Our conversation begins by talking about humility, church leadership, handling criticism as a pastor, those who have an eager desire for a platform or to be on stage, and then we discuss the book of Philemon, slavery in the Bible, and some issues surrounding the apostle Paul’s view of slavery. Get a FREE one year supply of vitamin D plus 5 travel packs! https://www.drinkag1.com/TITR Subscribe today to the Pour Over Today! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-pour-over-today/id1583657464 Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hey friends, do you remember when I had Dr. Lee Camp on the podcast to talk about a Christian political identity? It was episode 1139 and it was a fascinating conversation. Anyway, Lee is one of my favorite Christian writers and thinkers and he also hosts a super engaging podcast called No Small Endeavor. It's kind of like The Old General actually. On No Small Endeavor, Lee will have curious conversations with theologians, philosophers, bestselling authors, all to explore what it means to live a good life.

His diverse range of guests include people like Amy Grant, Tish Harrison Warren, Philip Yancey, Malcolm Gladwell, Eugene Cho, Miroslav Volf, and many others, all asking what it means to live a life worth living. So if you like theology in the raw, or even if you hate theology in the raw, you've got to go check out No Small Endeavor on whatever app you use to get your podcast. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of theology in the raw. My guest today is Dr. Dennis Edwards, who has an MDiv from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, an MA, and a PhD in biblical studies from Catholic University of America. He currently serves as the seminary dean and VP of Church

Relations at North Park Theological Seminary in Chicagoland. And he was formerly associate professor of New Testament at North Park. He's the author of several books, including his recently released book, humility illuminated the biblical path to Christian character. And that's where our conversation begins talking about humility. And we do talk about Christian leadership. And then we spill over into some other of his interests as a biblical scholar, in particular with the book of Philemon that leads to a conversation about the new Testament's teaching on slavery, which, which is a really fascinating part of our conversation.

So I think you're going to love this conversation. Dennis is an awesome dude and has a huge heart for the church, for people and for God's word. So please welcome it to the show. For the first time, the one and only Dr. Dennis Edwards. Dr. Dennis Edwards. How are you doing this fine afternoon? I'm doing pretty well. Pressing really good to be chatting with you. Yeah. So you just got over a, you said just graduation is done now, or is it? Yeah, yeah, we just recently had our graduation and it's always a beautiful time aren't my faculty and staff They're wonderful and every year we record a video of us doing something silly We recorded a whole music video

We do it every year and you can find it at North parks, YouTube channel. And that was fun. We played it for the students right before they put their robes on and marched for graduation. And it went over really well. So that was funny. Oh my word. We did what I taught at Cedarville university years ago. They did, they did a, a, a Bible faculty rendition of the office. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Okay. So a few people might, might make this connection. So what, what am I, my good friends and colleague at the time, Tim, the Gambas looks almost exactly like Michael's stica. So he played the most brilliant Michael Scott in that video. I still remember. I was dying. Well, that's, that's fun. So you, you're okay. So let's, let's start here. We have so much

to talk about. You wrote a recent book on humility. Now I would love to know a couple things. What's it like? Like where did this come from? Did you ever struggle with like, like, where did this come from? Did you ever struggle with like, you know, the, the, the, the, the kind of like unwritten kind of scary thing and writing a book on humility is like, well, if you, if you think you're qualified to write a book on humility, you might, I'm sure you got that. And also there's been lots of books on humility. So, so you, you must've seen something that was either lacking in the books on humility. So yeah, tell us wherever you want to go with it. Well, yeah, I'm sure.

I love to chat about it. I mean, if there are a lot of books, I only know a portion of those because I felt like there weren't many recent books on humility, although I'm starting to see a few now. And I also hadn't seen many that were coming out of biblical scholarship as much as they were maybe more devotional books, which is fine. I mean, that's not a disparaging comment. It's just to say my expertise is in biblical studies and pastoral ministry, so I wanted to come at it from that lens. And I also think because my own journey was such that I never really understood what humility was.

I mean, I had my own conceptions, of course, I had my own ideas and assumptions. But Christians would talk about it like it was a virtuous thing. But I kept seeing leaders who were arrogant and annoying and off-putting, and we celebrated them. So I thought, well, what really is humility then if we say it's a virtue, but then we celebrate arrogance? So I thought, well, what really is humility then if we say it's a virtue, but then we celebrate arrogance. So I said, I, so I had my own kind of curiosity about it, but honestly, IVP academic came to me and we had been having conversations about something I would want to contribute. And they said, you know, we're interested in a book on humility and feel like you would be the person to write that. So that was sort of a confirmation for

me, things I've been thinking about that they were thinking about that too. So that's how it came together. Well, you can't say this. You wouldn't say this, but I can say it. So I know you from a distance, you know, as a fellow biblical scholar, we know we've, we've met a couple of times in person, but I know people I was like, Oh no, this, this, this is a, this is a, this is a, this is a, this is a really good book. I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not,

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, book on humility. I'm like, I don't know. Are you really the right one for the, but we know I saw his Dennis Edwards. I was like, Oh no, this, this, this is going to be a credible book. I appreciate that. That's why I'm not writing a book on how to get rich. You know, you don't go to Christian education to get rich. What are some things in the book that stand out that things that may be in your own study that you didn't realize before about humility? Yeah. One of the things came out early on because I said, let me start in the Old Testament, the Older Testament, as one of my colleagues says, and to look at humility there. So when

I was looking at that odd passage in Numbers where Moses is described as the humblest man on earth, I said, well, this is interesting. Why? And so, in studying that, I kind of came to this place that humility wasn't first apostatized towards somebody else. Well, I don't mean that like that. It's not first of all, posture toward another human being, it's a posture toward God. So, I felt like when I was looking at Moses and then some of the other Old Testament passages where humility is put in parallel with fear of the Lord, that happens a lot in Proverbs, for example, and some other places, that I said, you know what, humility is fundamentally a

posture of submission to God, and that's where it starts. So because I had first thought, well, let me talk about how we relate to other people. And then I, so that was one kind of eye-opening kind of moment for me is looking at the Old Testament was almost, most of the passages were talking about somebody's posture before God, to be humble. But then it's carried out in our interactions with other people. And so we see that in the way the virtue is kind of described throughout the Bible. I would say the second thing that was heavy on my heart that I wouldn't say was quite

an aha moment, but it was more of a wrestling. It was the notion of how do you talk about humility to people who've already been humiliated in the world and what's humility mean for the downtrodden? And so, I mean, is it even, it seems cruel even to say to people who've been humiliated to be humble. And so, my last chapter in the book, I decided to save it for the end, was to talk about humility as having an empowering kind of attribute to it. And because I really think that there's something to be said for those who've been humiliated, who find faith in the Lord, that they're not called to go lower, but they're also not called to grasp for the same kind

of power that oppressed them. So I find that to be those two things that have been, I don't know, really striking to me as I was working through the book. Practically speaking, you're a pastor either in experience or at heart as well. Do we have a leadership problem? Because you mentioned in passing that if humility is this like primary virtue and Christian leaders should be virtuous on some level, why is, is humility, is this, is this a problem among leaders that are lacking in the human? And why is that? Yes, I think it is a problem.

But I mean, I'm not out to sort of, you know, gun after people, you know, and sort of be this self-righteous judge who's pointing out all the arrogant leaders. But I think that if we look at the larger landscape and compare to say the early Christian movement, now, one is there's a really good scholarly book called Paul on Humility here. I'm promoting a book within a book, but it's written by a German scholar and she gives some guidance on how the Greco-Roman world did not embrace the same kind of notion of humility that Paul and then later Peter would also, or Paul and Peter, would promote. That's true in the language, that's true in

the description, right? So, okay, so to answer your question more directly, I would say early on, Christians were known for their humility because it stood in stark contrast to the rest of the Greco-Roman world and how leaders operated. So remember the words of Jesus, you don't lord it over people like that's the way the Gentiles do, you know? So there's this contrast there. I would say we have often fallen into the trap of trying to model our leadership in the way that secular entities

do it. And again, I'm not picking on any entity, but many times I go to leadership things and the examples before me are from the military, they're from the business world, and they're from athletics. And I'm like, okay, that's all cool. But why are those institutions telling me how to do ministry? Why can't those folks learn from the, from the Christians who are the ones doing ministry? So in other words, we've been taking our cues from people who are found the way to advance in our, in a world that's a highly competitive, often violent and sometimes lacking in empathy our world. So I don't want to take my cues from there. I wonder if it like oftentimes successful leaders in, in the worldly terms of how we measure success,

they have the drive, the personality, they get things done. They don't always excel in things like empathy. And I wonder if even that kind of personality that's associated with successful leadership spills over into the church. And that kind of personality might struggle, not always, but, but that might struggle with, with humility as well. I mean, the more successful you are, the more I'm sure it's a challenge to be humble. If you're not successful, it's probably like, I don't know. What am I going to be prideful about? prideful about, you know? Well, yes. Yeah. Um, there's, there's a, there's a line in

Sierak, uh, an apocryphal book that, um, here we go. Here we go. Biblical scholars. I love it. I don't want to listen to stick it. I'm a heretic for, for, uh, citing the apocrypha, but, but there's a line in there and I'm forgetting the chapter and verse, but that the idea is sort of the greater you are, the humbler you need to be. So there's this sense that the way you get elevated in society can happen a lot of ways. I mean, it can happen because people just want to build you up or maybe you really do have skills and such. I don't know.

People get to where they get for a variety of reasons. But with the great power becomes great responsibility, right? So with those positions. But I do think that we have measured success in the way that those driven people will even use very positive language to describe somebody, because we might not even say driven. We'll just say they're capable, they're strong, those kinds of things. But frankly, I don't know if the models that we have elevated are really our best models. I mean, okay, in the world's eyes, the most successful churches are the big ones, the ones who have done these phenomenal things, have stuff on the airways,

and have some noteworthy person up front doing all that stuff. But I'm telling you, I'm one of those people who's raised in a small church. I'm one of those people that's been around in different parts of the country. I haven't traveled as much as you, but I've been around in other parts of the world and other countries. And there are some amazingly faithful people who will never get the platforms that those people have. And I tell you, they are great in God's eyes, and they are true leaders. And I'm all about wanting to celebrate that kind of faithfulness. So yeah, I would say we do have a leadership problem in some ways, because we have been zeroing in on the people that make the biggest splashes. And I think we miss out on some rather godly, powerful examples.

That's one of the joys of my ministry, as you said. I mean, it takes me into many different churches and many different parts of the country, most of whom are not known. They're just pastoring churches. Some of them might even be bigger churches, you know, five, six, seven thousand people, but maybe they're still not like nationally known and I just, I just get the experience. I know with all of the abuse in the church, power abuse, abuse, cover-ups, misogyny, all this, all the junk you read about, like that's all there. I guess I get to experience all the churches that don't make the headlines or, or even the pastors

at my own church that I attend here in Boise, every single one is so humble. Like they really are that they're just, they just don't think much of themselves at all. Like they, they just like, they're just like, they're normal people first. And then they happen to also pastor, but it's not really wrapped up in their identity. You know? And so that is hard, Dennis. Like what do you do in a day and age when the bad stuff always makes the headlines? And so you have this narrative that's like, gosh, there's every other church corrupt. And yeah, I mean, it is hard. And I'm, I'm not one that knows well how to navigate the airways like you do. I don't even have a huge social media presence, but what I've been trying to do is give more time and energy and even

celebration to those kinds of folks that you just mentioned. I was in your neck of the woods not too long ago. I don't know if you knew that, but I was out in Boise. There was a delightful church out there and I met your buddy Greg. Yeah! Oh, he told me that, yeah! Yeah, yeah. So, we had a really good time. And that church, Resurrection, is one of those places. It was a beautiful experience. I had a wonderfully humble, warm community. And I thought to myself, I wish more churches had that kind of vibe, you know, but I think a lot of our leaders, and I was one of them as a young guy, I thought all

my models were, you know, the noteworthy big time pastors. And I thought, well, that's what we're supposed to be. And how am I going to get there? I didn't know how to get there. And my personality is true, is such that my personality is not one that I'm not a huge extrovert. I'm not a salesperson by nature. So maybe it's just one of those things that I was never going to have that kind of following and such. But I don't begrudge people getting attention and following. That's not the point. The point really is what do you do with these platforms? What do you do with the opportunities you have to lead people? That's more my question. I do get nervous in people, whether they say it or not, when they desire a platform, desire... It really bothers me.

Does it, yeah? It does. Because I think that that's not the way of Jesus. I think, okay, the refrain that keeps working its way through the Bible is God is anti, opposes the proud, but shows favor to the humble. So therefore, Peter will say, humble yourself under God's mighty hand, again, relationship to God, and He'll lift you up in due time. So I do think there's something, when folks say, I want this kind of thing, I feel like that's like almost the temptation in the desert with Jesus, you know, it's this kind of thing. I feel like that's like almost the temptation in the desert with Jesus. You know, it's that kind of, I'll give you all this worldly power. Yeah. You know, I just, I don't know. It just, it bothers, it bothers me. And maybe that's a dentist

thing, but I don't see it carried out in the way of Jesus or even in the way of the apostles. What do you think about this? This is kind of related and I'm not sure what I think about that. Like people that like Christian leaders in particular that really love the stage. Like they just, man, the more on the stage it could be, the more, you know, they love to speak in front of people on the stage. Part of me is like, I think that could be pure motivation, but then part of me also too, like, I don't know. I kind of go back and I guess it depends on the heart, but do you have any thoughts on that? I suspect it does. I mean, I, again, I'm not out to shoot anybody else down. I'm a pretty easy going guy about, about some things.

And I give, I try to give people a lot of latitude and the benefit of the doubt. Yet I will say, I wonder where, what drives people to want that. Like is there something that is, is, is there enough self-examination going on to question, why do I want to be in the spotlight? Why do I have to be on the stage? Why do I always need to have the microphone? I think those are fair questions to ask of oneself, you know? But of course, God gifts people, right? So I want people to use their gifts and use their abilities. I'm not, in fact, what I argue in the book is that humility is not degradation. You don't have to always disparage yourself.

Humility is kind of a right setting, putting yourself in right perspective in God's eyes and in the eyes of the world. So that's what I'm striving for. So I want people to use their gifts, but there's something about pushing your way in as opposed to having God open doors for you. I mean, in my 25 years of ministry, it's been that long, my word. Well, you probably, you got a couple more years. I'm older than you. But it looks like you keep it shape, man. You go to the gym. I'm trying. I'm trying than you. But you, you, you, it looks like you keep it shape, man.

You, you go to the gym. I'm trying. I'm trying. Yeah. I was in the gym this morning. Yeah. You look like you were, man. How much you bench? Well, I stopped, I stopped measuring because I was starting to get sore around my shoulders. But yeah, but I still, I still press.

I just don't, I don't always do the flat bench. I'll do the machine sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. They say, they say weight, the older you get, the weight lifting is actually so good for bone density and just your overall health. More than like even like running and stuff. Yeah, yeah. So I still stay at it.

I try to lift at least five days a week. Wow, look at you, man. Yeah. So I was gonna say, it's like I, early on in my ministry, especially like I had a major fear of speaking. So I thought at the beginning I did not want to go near a stage. Then I started doing it, started getting some good responses and then there still was kind of scared to do it. But then also this, like this, this weird desire would kind of creep

up like, yeah, but I can, you know, people will like this and, and maybe they'll like me and you woo the crowd. And, and then now I've seen the last 10 years, I've become much more introverted to where I'm like, I don't, I, I, I speak because I feel like it is something God calls me to, but I don't personally, like if God says you will never be on stage again and the rest of your life, I would say, thank you, Lord. Well, I hear that. I mean, I like the opportunity to communicate and speak because I think it's something God called me to do and something I'm reasonably good at.

Now, I'm not the most entertaining person because entertainment has not been my goal. But I think there are people who would say I'm a good preacher. I'll put it that way, at least to say a good preacher. So and I also believe that I have a gift to try to help clarify things. So I'm a good teacher as well. So I sometimes I want that opportunity, right? Because I, especially if you're in a situation where like, this is confusing. And, and I could help clarify things here, you know. So I do want that, but I see it as not trying to make a name for myself as much as I see it as helping God's people to get some clarity on things. So that's how I think the way spiritual gifts operate, you know, that they're for God's people, right, for the common good, you know, that kind of thing. I think

I'm more concerned, you know, there was a book written years ago, it's a novel and she was really popular a few, I would say almost 30 years ago, my goodness, Susan Howich is the name and she wrote a series of novels and they're often set around Anglican ministers. One of them is called Glittering Images or Glittering Image, maybe it's singular. It was a really good book,

but this notion of how we present ourselves in a certain way, we wanna present this glittering image, we want people to think of us in a certain way, yet there are often some unattended two things in our lives like this particular priest in the book was, we find out, he's presented a certain image, but there was some unattended two things in his life. And so for me, that's the humility part. It flips that around and says, let's

keep attending to the things in our lives. And God opens up these opportunities for us to let our gifts shine and flourish and move that way. So that's what I'm pushing toward. The older I get, the harder it is to stay healthy. Now even if you exercise a lot and try to eat healthy, it's nearly impossible to give your body all the nutrition that it needs without taking some kind of supplement. This is why I've been taking AG1 for almost two years now and I feel great. I've tried many supplements, vitamins, green powders, nutritional drinks, you name it, but I found AG1 to be the most potent, effective,

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or challenged you in any significant way, would you consider supporting the show financially? You can do so through Patreon at patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. All the information is in the show notes. You can support the show for as little as five bucks a month. And in doing so, you get access to all kinds of different premium content. And most of all, you just get access to the theology in the raw community.

We have all kinds of awesome chats and messages back and forth. And it just, it means the world to us that you support the show as the show has grown. So have all the expenses and all the work that goes into pulling it off. So again, if you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology raw. And I just want to thank my, uh, the people that are already supporting the show. Thank you so much for keeping this show not only going, but also thriving. So patreon.com forward slash theology in Iraq. How do you, how do you respond? I'm curious when people say pastor, pastor Edwards, that

was such a good message. Like when people compliment you, is there, what do you say? Well, this is funny that you say this. I mean, I will answer that in a moment, but I actually put it, I know you didn't finish the book, but there's a, there's an example in there. That's that very example. I say the very example is I say somebody comes up to you and says, that's the worst sermon I ever heard. Or somebody comes up and says, oh, pastor, that was the best sermon I ever heard. You know, it's like, how do you, how do you, what does that do to you? And what is that? How does that hit you? And I have had people say that. And so I'll just say thank you and thank God. I'm glad you got something out of that. So that, I mean, that's all I say because for me, I, maybe because we've been around for a long time, right? I've been at this for a while.

So for every person who's feeling that way, there's somebody else out there. Maybe not, maybe not be one to one. I hope it's not one to one ratio, but there is, there are going to be people out there who like were falling asleep, didn't care what you had to say, and maybe, you know, had a bone to pick with one thing. I one time made an illustration and mentioned the Harry Potter movie, and of course I got somebody really upset because they didn't like Harry Potter and didn't want the kids to hear about Harry Potter, you know, that kind of stuff. So there's always going to be something, right?

So when somebody gives me a compliment, I hope, I don't want to just deflect it. What I've had to learn in my life is not to just deflect it, because I want to say that they took the time to say something to me. I want to receive that. I want them to know I heard it. But when I was younger, I used to deflect it because I thought, well, okay, I need to project some kind of modesty here. So they say, oh, you know, it's like, oh, that's okay. You know, I just push it away or something. But now when I hear it, I want to say thank you. I appreciate that. Uh, it means a lot to me and I'm glad that you got something out of that. So that's, that's how I've been responding in, in recent years.

Cause I know some people, and I used to do this, like you almost feel like you can't say thank you. It's like, you feel like you need to say, well, you know, all, all praise be to Jesus. You know, it's like, right. Oh yeah. I don't know. To me, it just felt a little overly innocent. But people do that. I'm not, I don't know your heart, but it just felt a little bit. It is. I mean, when I was, when I was a young guy and I remember this is back in now that maybe it was the eighties or early eighties or so, but when Chris, certain Christian singers, you know, they'd be on stage and, and there would be people would applaud and they'd always point up, you know, like, this is not for me, this is for God.

I'm like, okay, that's cool. But you know, the people are thanking you too, you know, and it's okay to say thanks. I appreciate the support and encouragement. Now I'm not saying that we have to create a fan club, but I am saying that I'm okay with receiving thanks. At least I have become okay. It's taken me a while, but I've become okay with that. Yeah, that's good.

Yeah. It's so funny that I forgot where this was, but I remember I finally got to the point where I'm like, you know what? I'm not gonna say that. I feel like I'm just doing it to be spiritual and like, does it feel good when people comment you? Yeah, that I put a lot of work into it. Yeah, obviously the Holy Spirit's involved. So this one time though, when I was like, does it feel good when people come at you? Yeah. Did I put a lot of work into it? Yeah. Obviously the Holy spirits involved. So this one time though,

when I was like, okay, free on, I'm not going to say pray. I'm going to say thank you. You know? And sure enough, I, somebody complimented him pressing. That was a really good message. And I said, thank you. Thank you. And they said, well, you should be thinking Jesus. You can't win. Sorry. You can't win. You can't win. But that's part of it too though. I mean, part of the bigger picture is how we continue on, no matter how people might

hear or receive us. And I know you've taken some knocks in ministry. I've taken some knocks in ministry. There's this sense that if our whole way of being depended on people responding to us a certain way, oh my goodness, we would be devastated. We wouldn't keep the press going. But I would say humility allows us to keep going because we ultimately realize it's about God,

and it's about serving God and God's people, and it really isn't about us. And it took me decades really to be comfortable with that and to honestly believe that. And so, yeah, but I feel more secure in that than I did when I was a younger minister. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Can you recall it? A criticism you received that would really cut deep in ministry. Oh my goodness. I've had many, many criticisms. One of the ones that I mentioned in the book, because I don't want to go too far downhill

here, a lot of times I try not to hold on to them because you don't know me super well, but I have had some issues in my past that I could spiral down, try and remember all those bad things. But one of the things I talk about in the book was a guy I had known from my seminary years, who he wanted to plant a church. I was feeling like God was calling us to plant a church in my home of New York. But he was talking about me to a mutual friend and was saying negative stuff about me. And he just said, you know, Dennis is no church planter.

And I thought, what does he really know? And then you start to get really introspective, at least I would, I don't know about other people, but like, well, what's wrong with me? What is he seeing about me that's deficient or whatever? And I'm getting encouraged in that call by other people. So why is he saying these things about me and not saying them to me? You know, so there was something that it hurt partly because I thought

this person and I were on the same page, you know, we're both trying to do God's work in some place. So that hurt. But I've had other, you know, comments, people have said that, that were that cut. I had, well, some of them were just unfounded. I mean, I had somebody write an anonymous email to leadership at a church I served in Minnesota just blasting me that I was, you know, the wrong person for the church and how I, how I had, was there just to build my own name up and I was power hungry. I almost wanted to laugh because I thought, I don't know anybody who would say those things about me. But the thing that hurt was none of the leadership team,

they all got copies of this email, but not anyone on the leadership team stood up and said, that's not true or anything. They just kind of passively let it go. So I thought, what in the world is going on here? So I, yeah, I've had a lot of hurt things present. Actually, I wrote a different book called Might from the Margins. And in there, I say some things about my earlier years in ministry and some things that were

really difficult. But even in light of that, I've tried to do some degree of self-examination to see what is true about what I'm hearing. But then I've also had to fortify myself to say, well, Dennis, people are dealing with all kinds of stuff. And sometimes what they throw at you is more a reflection of their issues than they are about you. But it's taken me a while to get there.

I've had to get some counsel and some help to think that through. So, but that's part of humility for me too, is to say I'm willing to admit that I needed to get help and to think things through about my life in ministry, because I didn't come fully formed into this, you know, I come because I simply responded to God's call, but I wasn't fully, you know, fully the dentist that I could be at that time. You know what I mean? It takes time to grow into that. So that's what I see. Humility is a journey. That's good. I was going to ask you how you, how you handle that. And even like, yeah, I'd be would love to use it. You'd expand on that, especially if pastors and leaders listening, anybody pastoral ministry has, has taken some hits and sometimes really

deep ones. And some people have cashed it in saying, I just, you know, I'm going to and leaders listening. Anybody pastoral ministry has taken some hits and sometimes really deep ones and some people have cashed it in saying, I just, you know, I'm going to find a job. That's not just tearing me down. What keeps you going? You've been in ministry for a while. Many different, yeah. I mean, 40 years or so. And well, I appreciate you asking that. And I certainly don't mind sharing. One of the things that someone said when I was younger, and it didn't hit me until I was maybe a decade or so into ministry, but said it when I was brand new in ministry, and it was a counselor. It was a group thing. He was talking to a bunch of pastors about the signs of what he was calling

browning out before you burn out, you know? But he said so many people, their identity is wrapped up in their ministry, and they'll still... So, like you said, they'll throw in the towel when stuff gets really hard, and it's like, I'm going to give up, I'm going to give up on this ministry. And his phrase was, look, the ministry is not your life. Your life is your ministry. And I started thinking about that and realizing, you know, that's true. It's like who I am as a person, as a citizen, as a husband, as a father, that's my ministry.

And if I think it's just this organization that I'm serving, then it's going to be easy to be discouraged and say, look, I'm not qualified. These people don't like me. Let me just throw in a towel and just, you know, and I'll be a barista or something because I don't want to do this thing anymore." I have had those thoughts for sure, right? But the thing I've learned to do also is to have a group of people I trust, and that's a small group at times. Yes, it includes my spouse, but other people too outside of my house who can be truthful

with me and help me to think things through. And then also, I got professional help. I mean, when I was depressed, I did go to get therapy because I wanted to figure out. Now, I wouldn't say I was clinically depressed. I wasn't medicated, but I was able to talk some things through to figure out what's the essence of what's going on here, you know, what's going on inside of me, how should I handle these things? And I would encourage all pastors to think that way. I've seen too many people base their identity and their self-worth on how others

respond to them, particularly fickle crowds. And I was letting that happen to me. And I was afraid that my success, my success, whatever that is, was wrapped up in how other people were going to view me. And I needed to free myself from that. That's good. That's so good. Yeah. I feel so bad, especially during the COVID era. So many pastors were, oh my goodness, you couldn't do anything right. You had to all of a also be an expert on like vaccinations and immunology and Matt, the effectiveness of masks. And it's like, I didn't go to seminary for this, you know, and nobody, what you do half the church is going to be upset.

And I was, I was feeling that way. And I've, I've said it partly joking, but, but, um, cause I tried to use some levity, but I, cause I, I just said this recently in a place I was speaking to a bunch of pastors at a little, at a conference in my denomination. And I said, you know, I'm my heart is with you all. I said, honestly, I'm glad that I went to full time teaching before the pandemic. I said, because I don't think I could have, I think the pivot would have been really hard for me. I mean, at my age, it would have been hard to pivot and to be a director and a producer, you know, getting all the tech

stuff right. And, and then also dealing with the masking and no masking. And then the, then the racial reckoning that we were going through in our country, which we, I don't think we actually got a reckoning. We just got, got some people upset, But there was, but all of that was happening. And, and again, people weren't equipped in many cases, not everybody, but some a lot of people were not equipped to handle that. And so I'm very sympathetic to that. And yeah, and I can't say that I mean, somebody put something on Facebook, or maybe it was Twitter and said, you know, I didn't, I didn't, the seminary didn't teach me how to how to handle a pandemic. And I, and it was actually one of my former students. And I said, I know, on a sense, you kind of being funny, I said, no, of course not. I said,

but what we try to do is teach you how to handle yourself. Because the reality is, we don't know what's going to come around the corner. And that's the way ministry is. But if we taught you well, you're going to, you're going to turn back to the things you well, you're going to turn back to the things you know. You're going to come back to the Spirit of God. You're going to come back to the Scriptures. You're going to learn how to handle yourself. And so, for me, that's what I try to communicate and illustrate in my life and in my teaching. So, anyway, I got a little off topic, but... Yeah, that's good. Well, yeah, let's shift gears. So, did you finish or are you working on a book, Intercultural Readings of the Bible? Is that...

Yeah, that's sort of our working title right now, but my colleague, Max Lee, is Korean-American biblical scholar. He's in the New Testament also, and he's taught a class by that title, so that's been our working title of the book. And I've been shared in that class with him talking about African-American hermeneutics. And I have an essay on African-American biblical interpretation in the dictionary of Paul and his letters, the second volume of that. And so I've helped Max in that. And then we found a Latina scholar and Dr. Sophia Manganiellis saying she is writing on Latin American biblical interpretation. So we're going to talk about what that is, and then we'll illustrate it in some ways. So I don't want to give all away of what the book is, because it's not out there yet, but

we're trying to wrestle with that. Now, those are big categories, right? I mean, Asian American is a lot of people, Latin American is a lot of people. Even African American interpretation is not monolithic. But what we're trying to do is help people think through why such thing categories exist and how we might appreciate the bringing those lenses to our reading of scripture. Can't can you? Yeah, I would love to open this up a little bit. So for the person who comes in and very innocently says, wait a minute, what do you mean African- American readings or Korean American? Like, don't we just read the Bible? The words mean something regardless of what we bring to the text. How would you respond to?

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think a lot of biblical scholars would say now more than when I was in seminary would admit that we all bring lenses to the scriptures, so we all are reading through some colored glasses, you know, as it were. And that doesn't necessarily frame the words on the page themselves. I shouldn't say frame, but color the words themselves. But it colors how we understand them and even the questions we might ask of a text. And even the imagination that the text prompts when we're picturing the people in the text, who we are factors into that. One classic example has been talked about so many times, but when feminist scholars

were reading, say, John Fore and the Samaritan woman, I don't know how many of us were taught that this woman was a promiscuous woman, right? Because she's had five husbands and the man she's with now is not her husband. And very few, I mean, that's a long time interpretation and certainly going back to the Reformation days. And, but women scholars were asking the question like, why are we assuming this? And so in bringing their lens to the text, they asked questions about this woman's situation in life and what kind of rights that she would have had

or how vulnerable she would have been. And what if her husbands had died? I mean, even the concept of being a widow. I mean, there's all kinds of questions that we bring, right? So, but if we, so, but coming from a certain place, we might not even think to ask certain questions. So, my social location, who I am, fuels the kinds of questions I ask of a text

and even the things that I observe in a text. That's a quick example. That's been around for a while, but even still, I occasionally hear preachers who will demonize the woman, and I'm like, man, you're not thinking about the world in which she's having to navigate. So yeah, and I think we touched on Philemon in a conversation. That's the same thing there too. I mean, there's a whole trope over the irresponsible slave who's trying to steal from the master and run away. And that trope has been around since, certainly since Chrysostom gave his interpretation of Philemon. And Paul has a line in there, if he's taken anything, or words to that effect, in essence,

if you've lost anything from him, he said, I'll repay it. Paul says, I'll, he says, but you owe me your life, he says to Philemon, which I think is kind of funny. But in there, there's this notion that, well, he must have been this horrible kind of runaway. And so we've demonized O'Nessimus in the process of reading that book. We've demonized the person who Paul is actually celebrating in the book. And so a lot of African American scholars have been reading the book of Philemon from the lens of Onesimus, you know, just forcing us to think about his situation more than we may have for many years. So that's partly what I mean by, by, um, coming at the text with other lenses, it, it just

draws our attention to things that some folks might miss or just emphasize in other ways. That's interesting about reading Philemon, the book that's titled Philemon through the lens of an SMS who really is kind of a main, well, like is there a main character? I mean, it's a, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Well, some scholars will talk about the three main characters at the triangle, Paul Philemon or Nessmas. But when you think about it, you know,, that this letter is getting read to a community, right? I mean, it's like there's something beautiful in that. And if we press it and think that Philemon actually, I'm sorry, that Onesimus was actually the one that brought the letter back to read it, then that's shines a whole nother light on

things too, to think that the courier of this letter, who's going to bring it to the community, is the main character really? You know what I mean? He's really the main character in there, even though we've named the book after the recipient for Lehman. So it's interesting. And that's just one example. I mean, there are whole books now that are read a series of essays,

largely by African-American scholars. There's one called Onesimus, our brother, all African-American scholars who are thinking through what does this letter say because of obviously because of the history of slavery in our country, that there's this one book that's such, uh, you know, that so highlights an enslaved person that it forces us to think about the effect that this book has had on the way we act as Christians in our world. You recently wrote a commentary, right, on Freilichman, Colossians and Freilichman?

I did, a small one. Well, it's a small book, so it's a small commentary, but it's part of a bigger series, the InterVarsity Press is having, I don't know exactly when it'll be released, but it's a wonderful volume called The New Testament in Color. Esau McCauley is one of the editors, Jeanette Oak is one of the editors. There's a lot of good work went into that to have perspectives of people who are bringing their lenses from their different social location to comment on different New Testament books. So I have my commentaries on Colossians and Philemon, which are two books that were often paired together in biblical scholarship and commentaries. It wasn't until more recent

years you started to see Philemon's standalone commentaries. It's because the assumption is that both audiences are in Colossus. This episode is sponsored by the Pore Over podcast. Oh, my word. I love the Pore Over podcast. It is a trustworthy news resource guiding people toward eternal hope. It's not Republican, it's not Democrat, it's not conservative, it's not liberal. Instead, it is a Christ-centered summary of the major events going on in politics and in culture. Like most of you, I am so tired of news outlets

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am I less or more motivated to love my neighbor and my enemy? If the answer is less, then Houston, we have a huge problem, a discipleship problem. This is why I'm so excited about the Poor Over podcast. Each episode is only about seven minutes long, and they just tell you about what's going on in the world. They don't tell you how to interpret the various events or how you should feel about what's going on. Instead, they just let you know about the facts of what's going on while reminding listeners that our

ultimate identity and hope is in Jesus Christ. I've even met some of the people at the pour over and they are super awesome. They're not some like closeted liberal or closeted conservative think tank. Like they're truly genuinely just trying to keep us informed while staying focused on Christ. So don't let traditional media outlets steal your affection away from loving people who might vote differently than you. Instead, check out and subscribe to the Pore Over podcast in your favorite podcast app. Hey friends, my book Exiles, The Church in the Shadow of Empire is out now. I am so excited and a bit nervous about the release of this book. This is a topic I've been thinking about for many, many years,

and finally put pen to paper to write out all my thoughts. Specifically, I'm addressing the question, what is a Christian political identity? As members of Christ's global, multi-ethnic, upside-down kingdom scattered across the nations, how should we as members of that kingdom think through and interact with the various nations that we are living under?

So the book is basically a biblical theology of a Christian political identity. We look at the nation of Israel, we look at the exile of Israel, we look at several parts of the New Testament, the life and teaching of Jesus, several passages in the book of Acts, the letters of Paul,

do a deep dive into 1 Peter and the book of Revelation, and then explore some contemporary points of application. So I would highly encourage you to check out my book, Exiles, and would love to hear what you think, whether you hate the book, love it, or still think it through it, would love to hear what you think by dropping a review on Amazon or, I don't know, post a blog,

just, you know, rip it to shreds, I don't really care. I would love for you to just wrestle with this really important topic in this really volatile political season that we're living in. What I'm curious, I mean, in, in, you're pretty productive, man. So you also wrote, uh, this, some of the study notes for our forthcoming upside down kingdom study Bible. You wrote the notes on what the new Testament says about slavery is that that's correct. Right? So thanks to you. Well, I need, I needed somebody that could hit. That's obviously such a sensitive topic. And I needed somebody to obviously be a biblical scholar, but understand the topic well. And you, you did,

I mean, your notes were fantastic. I learned a lot. How should we understand the new Testament on slavery and maybe going back to Philemon, like what contribution does the book of Philemon make to our understanding of the new Testament and slavery? Do we say the new Testament and door slavery slavery tolerate tolerated it? It was kind of indifferent or would have ended it if it could, but it was just such a big social issue. How should we think through this? Well, you, you, you, you just listed all the things that I've heard also in my lifetime and how we should think about it. I think there, I mean, Scott McKnight, who's a new Testament scholar, you know, extraordinaire,

has written so much. He was pretty dramatic after his standalone commentary on Philemon. He said Paul was blind to the immorality of slavery. So he's saying that Paul didn't put it in a moral category. It was sort of like this thing that simply was, you know? And I don't want to say that the Bible endorses it, but I would say that the words you use tolerates, I think there's a certain tolerance, right?

Now, there are other scholars who say the Bible endorses it for sure. I mean, you see how in the Old Testament, how there's laws and guidelines for how you should treat enslaved people. So I guess I don't know enough to say To make one blanket perspective, but I would say that if there's a trajectory the same thing with violence I would say there's a trajectory that's moving us toward Seeing people differently than we had seen them And that trajectory is one where we see the equality of all people and we come to denounce slavery.

I think that that's the movement that we're seeing in the Bible. So, the book of Philemon's space in there is to help us see how there should be some concord and true fellowship, I mean to use Paul's actual word koinonia between people who had been enslaved and people who have been free Because that classic line right that you take them back no longer as a slave, but as a brother Yeah, so there's this a better than a slave. He says But as a brother, so there's that sense that we recognize there's a hierarchy in the social setting, right? And in Christian community, it shouldn't be that way. That doesn't attack the institution per se, right? But it does say within Christian community, it should be different. And I think that's borne out in some other New Testament

places as well. You know, and I'll say this, the household codes that we see like in Colossians and Ephesians and 1 Peter, you know, the arrangement of the Greco-Roman household is not, the Christians didn't arrange that. So you've got that already existed. So when Paul, and I know some people don't think Paul wrote those things, but when the New Testament is giving instructions to these categories, it didn't create the categories. I mean, this is a Greco-Roman world that has the head of the household, powder familius, and then everybody else falling in line like they're little emperors of their

domain, and that there's such an integral part of the bigger empire. So I just want to say, when you have the Christians giving these commands, it's not that they are saying that that's the way society should be organized, but given the fact that society is organized this way, let's see how you can behave in this setting, right? And there's a lot of reasons why we think that's the case to not bring Rome down on you to not, you know, um, create more havoc than, you know, to be seen as subversive. You know, I mean, there's a whole lot of ways we might want to understand that. So that's a long answer. And of course it has to be long as there's no easy answer to, to how do we deal with slavery in the, in the Bible?

That's super helpful. I have not done extensive study on slavery, but you know, dabbled here and there re reading your notes and thinking through it and just reading. I'm working through, um, yeah, we're, I've been working through the household code in Ephesians a little bit in first Peter. And yeah, that's the way you articulated that this isn't the way the world should be. It's simply the way the world is. I guess the, do you think, I mean, cause how do we factor in like the, the new Testament concern for justice? And, and when we see injustices, part of the Christian, I think, and I think you would agree is, is to fight against justice to, to call out evil in the world. Why don't we see that with slavery? Is it simply because the new Testament movement was so minuscule that just, there might be some injustices that are just so

much bigger than the movement of the church that at this time, time and place, it can't really do anything to dismantle this unjust system or how I think that's fair to say. I mean, you got, you even have in first Peter, this line honor the emperor. I'm like, come on, we can't really take that verse to say today that we should have emperors. Although some people probably feel that way. I'm sure. But we know some of those too. Yes, we do. They're an Idaho. Well, you know, you can call out the names. I'm being careful here. They can find me.

But in all seriousness, it's contextual, right? So even though he says that, there's a sense that the folks in First Peter have to be careful. And what we see from the historical stuff is that, I mean, the very leaders in that part of the world, Cappadocia, Asia, Bithynia, and Pontus, these places around there, that they had a very cavalier attitude toward these Christians. They snatched them up, they threw them in prison, they beat them. So the Christian movement was very vulnerable. So I think it's fair to say that, and I don't want to oversim very vulnerable. So I think it's fair to say

that, and I don't want to oversimplify, but I think it's fair to say that some of at least some aspect of the household codes were so the Christians wouldn't be so conspicuous in their world that they couldn't survive. It's a formula for survival. It's like the way we tell our kids of color, keep your hands on the wheel when the cops pull you over. They shouldn't be pulling you over. It's an unjust system. But to maximize your survival, keep your hands on the wheel. Don't make the sudden move because this could escalate and go bad. So you give them advice in a messed up system. And so what you say is in order to be safe, in order to preserve your identity, behave

this way because it's going to not put a negative light on you. I think there's some of that going on in the household codes. It's like, this is behavior to keep the community alive. Now, when you ask about transforming a community, the transformation has to happen locally, which is why, back to our earlier part of our conversation, which is why I really want to celebrate the local church and not just say it's a place for rock stars to be upfront and shine. It's got to be a place where people are learning how to navigate these relationships, because if they can navigate them in the church, they will have a positive effect on the rest of society. So I think

that that's... I mean, I know we want to do everything through legislation. I get that. And some things you have to legislate for sure, but that's a, that's a luxury we have in our world that our early forebears didn't have. Right? So their transformation had to come through them loving each other well enough and loving their neighbors too. That's so good. I, that analogy of keep your hands on the wheel and you have the unjust system and, and, but you can't do anything about it when the cops pull you over. Maybe he's belligerent. Maybe he, maybe he has some racism in him, you know, but like in this time, all you can do in this moment is to be humble and submissive in a

sense of like, don't, don't react against the injustice here because it's not going to go well for you. It's a formula for survival. It's not an ethic for how all relationships should go. So if, okay, so let's, let's bring it out to more, not present day, but like last few hundred years when there was actual realistic opportunity to dismantle slavery, then, so the Abolitionist, let's just say the Christian abolitionists did maybe draw on some of the subtle deconstructing. Yeah. the you know, slaves, you know, treat your masters well and they cringe at that. But then he turns right around and says, masters, you do the same. The word is the same thing, which that would have been now as a white dude, I just, I hate this. I mean, I was, you guys

tried carefully not to, not to be, not to like dismiss the horrors of even what, even the kind of slavery that Paul was kind of working with. But to say that masters treats your slaves equally, that is still horrific in our eyes. Like why are you even, you know, why do we have masters? You know, but, but, but in that world, that would have been pretty revolutionary, right? I mean, within the- Yes, yes. Oh yeah. I mean, in each relationship, even the husband's love for the wife, even the parents listening to the, not exasperating the children. I mean, those are the, it's interesting.

It's the language to the powerful person that's the strange thing. You expect the person in the weaker position to be told to stay there, but you're not expecting the person in a more powerful position to be told. That's one of the things I think that the New Testament does do to help mitigate some of our cringe over the household codes. It speaks to the powerful person too. So yeah, I guess what we're saying is you're making the best of a bad situation, and it does bother us that it doesn't denounce

the whole situation. I mean, admittedly that's not there. We're not seeing a wholesale indictment of the system. What we're seeing is how do you survive? But again, the letters are local. The letters are written to communities. So at least for me, I think of it as, here you are in your community,

this is the way you should relate to one another, and it's going to help you to survive and to thrive and to grow. So that's the way I think of it. So I don't want to make it sound like the New Testament is so revolutionarily opposed to... I've heard people think that. They say, well, what about Philemon? Well, even reading Philemon, there's not wholesale consensus on what Philemon did with when Onesimus comes back. Is Paul really saying to manumit him, to free him? Or is he saying, at least treat him better than you used to treat him?

You know, I mean, treat him like a brother. He's a brother. And then the question is, is that just for Onesimus? What about other enslaved people? And what if Philemon had other enslaved people in his household? I mean, he might not have been rich. He might have only had the one. But let's say he had other enslaved people in his in his household. I mean, he might not have been rich, he might only had the one but but let's say he had other enslaved people, are they looking to

see? Well, okay, you want to treat him like a brother, but what about us? You know, I mean, there's a whole lot that's going on here. So it would be nice if we had some wholesale indictment, we don't. But what we are at least seeing is the seeds of true community being built that well, that's mixing the metaphor, but the seeds for the growth of true community being built that, well, that's mixing the metaphor, but the seeds for the growth of new community is when we, at least where we are, start to see each other as sisters and brothers and equal and, and rec and recognize that the new Testament set us up for that, even though it was in a patriarchal, a hierarchical context. Good. Is it? So I understand like Paul, the Christian movement, you need to get a few thousand Christians early on spread around, you know, meeting the house churches. They

couldn't have dismantled the social, the Roman social institution of slavery. However, however, Paul could have, am I right to be a little, still a little bit uneasy? Like Paul could have told the Christian master to free their individual slaves, right? Yeah. And why is there, help me understand maybe the historical context is the reasons why he didn't do that. I honestly don't know. I mean, and I, I don't know enough about the, the, um, social frap fabric to know, you know, what that would have meant in my view. I would say, yes. I mean, there's the, there's the one more obscure passage in, uh, first Corinthians, um, uh, seven, yeah. You know, the situation you're in kind of stay there, but if you get out, get out.

And it seems, seems like he's saying if you're I mean he saw writes about this in his His the reading while black he has a section on that that deals with that passage, too But there's a sense that if you are it may be saying look if you can get out get out Which might be one of his more One of his clear Paul's clearer ways of saying this is not the best. So if you can get out, get out, you know, that at least he's acknowledging that slavery is not a great system. But apart, and that's a debated passage. I mean, the grammar is awkward there. So I guess the bottom line is I don't know why Paul, but I think that goes back to what Scott

McKnight was saying. He's blind to the immorality of it. He's not seeing it in a moral category. He's just dealing with the way his society is operating. I want more from that. I taught a class one time called the Bible in Peacemaking. I was up at a place in Baltimore, and it's an ecumenical institute of theology. I really enjoyed my time teaching there. So I had some Catholic priests in the class, many from other countries. And we were debating this very thing, and we were talking about it, talking about it, going around and around. Why didn't Paul do this?

And somebody just said, he didn't. We just have to live with this. The reality is he didn't say what we wished he would have said. He just didn't. And so we have to live with this. The reality is, he didn't say what we wished he would have said. He just didn't. And so, we have to live with it. And I think the part of that is, I've become more okay with that. Where when I grew up in certain Bible circles, I kind of got nurtured in in my teens and twenties, the idea was, of course, the Bible was fixed in time so much so that all of our current things, the answers had to be found there. And I think the Bible gives us the enough raw materials to speak to our current situation, even if

it did not. So, in other words, some people read the Bible to keep slavery going because it didn't denounce it, right? And others read the Bible and said, wait a second, there's something underneath here too, when Jesus is talking about love, and others read the Bible and said, wait a second, there's something underneath here too. When Jesus is talking about love and we get words like equity, there's enough here to say we need to dismantle this thing too. Is I've still, I have a little help me think through this. I still feel a little uncomfortable with Scott McKnight's statements. How dare I, I'm not going to disagree with the mighty Scott McKnight. I'm just admitting probably ignorance on my part, but Paul did not see Paul. The, the one who knows what Genesis

one 27 says Paul inspired by God. Not that everything he did was inspired, but his letters are and the one neither male nor female nor slave nor free. And did he not really the ownership of another human being, did the mighty apostle Paul not see the immorality of that? What do you think about, I mean? Well, for me, I mean, there's a lot in there. One is I don't see biblical writers as infallible people and I also don't see them as omniscient. And also I see the text is inspired. Not and that's a whole nother that's a whole nother conversation maybe is what's it's very to me that is it inspired people or inspired text. So I guess in all that to say is I'm willing to admit short something that was

short sighted or blinded. You know, they didn't see, I think that's true even of the patriarchal world that he, that he navigated in. Although of course he works with, didn't see. I think that's true even of the patriarchal world that he navigated in, although of course he works with women all the time that I can't take a few verses that are difficult for us today in terms of the role that women have in the way we do church today. I still think there's other things that were going on in that world too. In other words, I don't personally, I don't prohibit women from serving in any role in the life of the church, although I know some people who do. And I can't even make the one-to-one correspondence because I don't even think the way we do church now is like the way people were doing church back then.

So anyway, all that to say is I don't have a problem with saying Paul was blind to something in a moral category, but I do get your point. And it's hard, I think for us, because at times we want the apostles to be almost infallible. I don't. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. For me, it's not a matter of like Paul's inspired and there for, cause yeah, his letters are inspired, but like he's, he's not, he's fallible. It just seems like such a, so I'm fine. Paul being blind to certain things, whatever. It just seems like such a big blind spot. Yeah, yeah, it does. It does. But you know, but, but let's, let's, let's press it a little bit more. You've got somebody who is a citizen who is free. And when he gets out of prison in Philippi,

and the warden of the prison is saying, you can go free, the magistrates have said you can go in peace. And Paul says, what? He says, in peace. He says, they whipped us publicly and we're citizens. He said, they need to come and apologize to us. He could call out his rights as a Roman citizen. So I guess what I'm saying is maybe

from his relative position of privilege as a citizen, he did not think the same way. Now, when Peter's talking about it, he actually talks about suffering unjustly. He uses that word unjustly when he talks about slavery. Here's a guy who's not a citizen. And for him, he sees this system as unjust. So I guess what I'm saying is,

maybe there's some space to say that they also brought a lens in their work. Now I'm gonna have some of your listeners really mad at me because I actually do believe that people who wrote the Bible, and particularly in the New Testament, were fully themselves, even though they got inspired by, got pushed by the Spirit to write the words they wrote. Well that's, I mean, we can do this. Yeah, I know, there's a lot.

This is good, Preston. I'm glad you got the questions, Preston. This is good. Inspiration. I'm glad you got the questions. This is good inspiration. We get another guest on it and have a big, big, more robust conversation. I'm just gonna say inspiration does not mean dictation. Like full humanity. And I would even say their scientific view of the world, which is, you know, not like ours today, like they're bringing their full humanity. I don't think there's errors in the original inspired writings, but it's like, what do you mean by that? Like you bring your

full humanity and there's going to be first century perspectives of the world that we don't share. So it's complicated. I'm not an expert. It is complicated, which is why I love what we do, you know, trying to understand the scriptures and then say, how are they speaking to us today? So, I do love that, although it's not easy, and clearly we're going to differ at places. But I do think there are some things that come through that push us to be better and push us to be kinder and gentler, more humble, you know, humbler, I guess you could say that. And so, I am leaning into those things and trying to wrestle with the things that are ambiguous or difficult. Well, Dennis, before I let you go,

do you want to give a shout out to your fine institution out there in Chicago? Thank you. Yes. North Park Theological Seminary in Chicago. We are doing our best to serve God and God's church. I would encourage anybody to check us out. We're easy to find, northpark.edu. And we have a range of degree programs for people. You can study at distance. You can study on campus, but we would love to have you. Dennis, thanks so much for your heart for the church, for your contribution to the kingdom and for this fun conversation. Thanks for us. And this has been fun. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.