Theology in the Raw - Pastoring People Who Are Living on Different Ideological Planets: Austin Fischer

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

Austin Fischer is the Lead Pastor at Vista Community Church near Austin, TX and is the author of several books, including the recently released Us for Them: Seeking Higher Ground in the Cultural Holy Wars, which forms the basis for our discussion in this episode. We focus primarily on how to lead people in our ideologically polarized society, especially when it comes to political and social issues. Get a free one-year supply of vitamin D plus 5 travel packs! DRINKAG1.com/TITR Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode of theology. And around my guest today is pastor and author Austin Fisher, whose recent book just came out. It's called it's titled us for them seeking higher ground in the cultural Holy Wars. And that's what we talked about in this podcast podcast, how to navigate these strong and sometimes very aggressive ideological tensions that exist in the church that often have to do with political or social issues. Austin has had to navigate that in his own church. And I think he's done so from what I could tell very well. And so we talk about how to navigate political discipleship, cultural

discipleship in our highly charged world. So really enjoyed this conversation. I think you will too. So please welcome back to the show for the second time. The one and only Austin Fisher. All right. I'm here with Austin Fisher. It's been a few years since I had Austin on the show. So thanks so much for coming back on the Algen Ross. Super excited about your latest book. Oh man. Um, one of my greatest claims to fame is I'll have staffers and people sometimes who will say, well, you want Preston sprinkles podcast that one time. So it's been a few years, but a huge fan. A lot of people at my church are huge fans. And so I'm really

grateful to get the hop on and yeah, chat with you a little bit about it. How big is But a huge fan, a lot of people at my church are huge fans. And so I'm really grateful to get to hop on and yeah, chat with you a little bit about it. How big is your church? I'm just curious. Nothing that matters. I just like to get a picture of like when you are preaching on Sunday, what am I envisioning here? Let's see. This is a dangerous question to answer depending upon who's listening, but we're, so we're usually around 3000 people on Sundays. And so I know to some people that's, depending on where you are, that's a mega church. Some people, whatever, if you're in Dallas,

it's like, oh, that's a cute little church that you have there. That's like a Texas house church right there. Yeah, that's a guy what I described as a Texas house church. But no, it's around 3,000 people. We started in portable buildings 17 years ago. And, you know, man, I didn't sign up to be on staff at a big church. I just came to be teaching in college pastor at a

church of a couple hundred people meeting in a gym. And some mix of things happen and God has appeared to bless it in certain ways. And so it's been good to be, I've been here for about 12 years at this point. And I love it. It's an imperfect church, but it's, it's home for me. How long have you been the lead pastor now? You're the lead pastor, co-leader. Yeah. So we have two lead pastors, which is a little bit unique and kind of gets to some of the things in the book. But I've been at the church for 12 years, but we switched to a co-lead model six and a half, probably years ago. And so the other lead pastor, Dave, great dude, one of the fun things that we've had

in Aggregate is Dave would, he's a chill Calvinist, he would say. My first book was about not being a Calvinist anymore, Young Restless No Longer Report. That's right. That was your first book. That's right. Yeah, that was the first one. I said some things I regret in that book, but it is youthful exuberance. Yeah. I would take some of it back. I mean, I want to know what

you would take back. What did you say? Preston? We're not here to talk about that. Were you too snarky against the reform crowd or I, you know, man, I was 27 when I wrote it and there were just some unnecessary rhetorical jabs that weren't needed and that I would take back. And just laying out more clearly that at the end of the day, there is some mystery involved in how we sort out God's providence. And though I do think some forms of Calvinism go beyond the bounds of what scripture would want us to say about it, it's obviously a part of orthodoxy and it has a rich part of the rich, the Christian heritage and there's a good place for it. And again, I pastor alongside a Calvinist and have for 12 years at this point.

Oh, that's fun. So us for us, four of them, Seeking Higher Ground and the Cultural Holy Wars is your latest book. What led you to want to write this book? And then I want to give you, have you just give an overview of what it's all about? And I'm sure that can, uh, that could lead us into many different directions. I'm very happy to chase down. Yeah. So the, the, the instigating event for the book was, um, on election night 2016 when a certain person was elected president. I was very frustrated about that.

In my frustration, I remember firing off a tweet. I don't remember exactly what it said, but it was very critical and contemptuous and condescending toward any Christian who had voted for Donald Trump. One of my elders at the church immediately texted me. This is like 10 PM. He goes, Austin, I understand that you're upset. Obviously, I agree with you on a lot of this, but I agree with you on a lot of this, but what you just did is a very unworthy way for a pastor, a Christian, but like a pastor, some form of Christian leader to speak to and of others. And you need to be better than that.

And man, I did not receive that well in the moment. I mean, we had a nice little back and forth where I was like, no, you don't understand like all that stuff about how Christians talk to each other. It doesn't apply to me because I am right. And when I am right, the rules don't apply. You know, the first time I'm sure that wasn't your exact words, but I, yeah, that was a baby. This elder had a very good relationship. So it was a little more colorful than that. I will leave it at that. I have a little haawass in me when it comes to my language sometimes.

I'm full disclosure. So anyways, that was the first time that, I don't know, man, God just kind of got a hold on me. And for just a little bit of backstory, like I grew up pretty conservative, went to college and like all good college fellows, you rebel a little bit against the faith you were given growing up and that little rebel spirit takes holding you a little bit, and you want to be a part of revolution and all that good stuff. So, I started this journey towards something more like progressive Christianity.

I had a very complicated relationship with evangelicalism in my mind at that point. And so I was just wired to be very critical of the super conservative, mega Christian nationalist or just adjacent to it folks I saw, many of whom are members at my church. And that was just where I was comfortable. And I felt very comfortable because I knew I was right in acting that way toward them. And that was just where I was comfortable. And I felt very comfortable because I knew I was right in acting that way toward them. And that was the first time that someone really wise just kind of called me on, hey, man, I think there may be something unhealthy though going on with your very contemptuous posture toward your ideological enemies and others. And so that happens.

And then we hit COVID, you know, and it's this funny mix of, you have this racial reckoning happening in America in particular, which was good, and so much of it was so needed. I also, though, started to notice during that time, and we were all very online and all the stuff that's duly noted, how incredibly comfortable so many, like really good Christian leaders who I had know and respected had become speaking in just horrifically, antagonistic, belittling, and contemptuous ways

toward not just other people, but toward Christians who disagree with them. It got me on this journey where I started going, man, I've become way too comfortable justifying my righteousness. There's a non-zero percent chance that I'm actually just falling into a really, really ancient sin, which is the sin of self-righteousness masquerading itself as the pursuit of justice and holiness and all things good and on God's side. And so, the book grew out of my attempt to help my church because I'm a big believer

that your work should be for like a specific place and people first as a pastor. And if it has spillover, that's great. But it was a book for my church as we tried to navigate what it looked like to be a place where we speak honestly and candidly. And we have the sort of fights we're supposed to have, but we do it in a biblical way. And we do it from a posture of friendship instead of antagonism. And so that's what the book is an attempt to do. Wow. That's great. Oh man. So we're, we're, did you plan to write it for the 2024 election year on purpose? Is this, I mean, and well, I guess I have a multifaceted question. I

mean, you're, you're, you've been a pastor through 2016 through 2020 and now in 2024, how, how are you helping your specific church, your people, not make the same mistakes we made in 2016, 2020, along the lines you're talking about of political divisions just blowing up the church? Yeah. I didn't plan for it to come out now. I thought it would come out earlier, but I have three kids and I'm just trying to be a good dad and stay married.

Those are the top two things on my to-do list. And so it got pushed back a little bit and it ended up sinking up nicely with the 2024 election. And so, I mean, big picture what I'm trying to do at my church and what I would encourage all pastors to do is to see the 2024 election and not look at it with a sense of like doomsday apocalyptic dread, but to instead see it as a really unique evangelism opportunity, where in a world where we're all so incredibly

comfortable despising people who disagree with us, especially on issues of ideology, which I'll get to in a second why that's become like hatred's most acceptable home in the current moment is ideology. To instead see it as this beautiful moment where we could show the world that God and Christ really does have the capacity to hold together people who seemingly do not belong together and not just hold them together in some sort of, I just stick it out way but where we could get to a place

where we genuinely cherish each other's differences and differences of opinion because we believe that we tell a better story together than we do apart and so there there are a lot of you know that's the big picture is we got an incredible opportunity coming up it doesn't have to be something you dread, but you do have to take it head on. And in order to do that, I mean, number one, you have to normalize there being differences in the body. I mentioned earlier that ideology has become

hatred's kind of acceptable home in the current climate. You know, once upon a time, you could hate anybody for anything. Gender, race, religion, skin color, it didn't matter, man. It was all fair game for all sorts of reasons. But we've come to this place in society, I think it's a wonderful thing, and it's mainly, I'm partial here,

but I think it's mainly because of Christ, where we realize it's not acceptable to hate people for things they cannot control, such as skin color, race, gender, all that. But I think we've justified hatred by saying, well, I can't hate people for that stuff, but we can absolutely hate people for things that they do control, such as what they believe, the things that they do. And this is where I think it's really important to understand, you know, Jesus says in

his high priestly prayer that the primary prerequisite for the world's capacity to believe that God sent Jesus is for God's people to be united. You know, that's Jesus's big prayer there. I've got to pray that you'd make them one so that the world could believe that you sent me. And so if that's like the primary prerequisite for the world's capacity to believe our unity, that means that our disunity makes the gospel in some sense unbelievable for the world, which to me makes sense because how is the world supposed to believe that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead and defeated sin, suffering and death when he can't somehow bring conservative and progressive Christians together in the same

church. It seems like a pretty reasonable request on the world's end. And so, given that, that's Jesus's, in some ways, primary mission in the world is to have one united people of God, not all the same, but united, then Satan's primary objective is to divide the people of God. There are other things Satan is up to, but if that's one of Jesus's primary objective is to divide the people of God. There are other things Satan is up to, but if that's one of Jesus's primary missions, then that would obviously be Satan's primarily counter mission from a subterfuge. And ideology is a really clever foothold

because it is really easy to feel righteous about your hatred when you feel like people are believing the wrong things according to you, ideating the wrong ideas, according to you. How do you, okay, let me, I want to try to step inside somebody who wouldn't necessarily say, you know, I have grounds to hate another person that holds a different views, but would still say there's maybe grounds for righteous indignation toward another ideology. And I could, let's just go both left and right here. You know, someone on

the right would say, um, abortion is the most heinous kind of murder. I mean, it's literally murdering the most innocent kind of human being you can. And I can't sit in a pew next to somebody who thinks that that is actually not just morally okay, but is actually morally good. Like it's I'm going to fight for the freedom for people to kill unborn children. I can't sit next to somebody who calls himself a Christian who, you know, and flip it around. I mean, we can go many directions here. You know, I can't sit next to somebody who is actively in support of the state of Israel murdering thousands of Palestinian children.

And you know, we're set. We're okay. The nations will do what the nations will do, I, I, I, yeah. Okay. I get that. You know, I think sometimes some of these issues may be more complicated than people make them out of. I mean, I think that's the thing. I think that's the thing. I think that's the thing. I think that's the thing. I think that's the thing. I think that's the thing. I think that's the thing. I think that's the thing. I think that's the thing. I, Oh yeah. Okay. I get that. You know, I think sometimes some of these issues may be more complicated and people make them out to be, but if that is, if you frame it the way I just did, I mean, I, I wouldn't sit next to somebody that you KKK saying, ah, let's just get it. You know, we have differences,

but that's okay. You know, let's sing together and hold hands and like, oh no, like this is like, you're significantly departing from the Christian faith as I see it. So how do you pass? How do you smile? You're smiling because you've probably heard this before. No, I'm smiling because you very quickly, you know, put your finger on the like fundamental tension point in what I'm advocating for. And so to unpack it a little bit, like, yeah, I'm not saying that you can't have enemies. You know, Jesus never said you couldn't have enemies. I think it's probably required that you have enemies. You know, like in an unjust

fallen world, having enemies is probably required. Jesus was pretty clear that you should expect them. So I'm not saying you can't have enemies. Number one, just wanting to remind all of us self, most of all concluded, because I rather like not liking people who I think are wrong. I'm not above the fray in any way, shape, or form. But while you can have enemies, and it's probably required, I'm just saying you can't have enemies that you don't also love. And that's like a simple, okay, but like we need to pause on that. You are not allowed to have unloved

enemies according to Jesus. And so then from that though, to also, you get to some pretty basic biblical anthropology on some things where it's like, yeah, Paul, let's say in Romans one through three, you know, because he was dealing with a tension that certainly in the minds of first century Jews and Gentiles was every bit as profound as any modern tensions that we have, be it abortion, not abortion. It was every bit as profound a tension. And Paul was tasked with convincing these Jews and Gentiles

that they could in fact belong together in the same church. And they could eat together, and they could hold hands despite their differences. And you know what Paul does there in Romans 1 through 3 is he paints this picture of how awful the Gentiles can be. They're God haters. They do all these awful things. They ladder their parents.

It's always funny to me that that made it in the list. And so he's clearly got you know, got the more conservative Jewish Christians in the room going like, yeah, man, these Gentile Christians, you're right. They are just, they are the worst. Maybe they can be a part of God's family, but they're going to have to come a long way before we would accept them. Then he kind of draws, you know, the trap tight there in Romans three, where after all that he says, but hey, are you better than them? The phrase he uses there in Romans three, verse nine, are we better than them? The phrase he uses there in Romans three, verse nine, are we better than them?

Of course, in context, he's talking to the Jewish Christians in the room about, hey, do you think you're actually better than those Gentile Christians who do all those things? And I mean, the candid answer would be like, heck yeah, I'm better than them. I know I'm not perfect, but of course I'm better than whatever your boogeyman is. I'm better than these super progressive Christians who make everything about gender race, sexuality,

and can't let that go and bend orthodoxy to their will. Or of course I'm better than these MAGA Christian nationalist man who have mistaken the Great Commission for American Manifest Destiny. Yeah, you know what? I am better than them. And to hear Paul say, actually though, you're not. Like you're just not. Because when you get down to like the basic anthropological bedrock, the fundamental category waiting for you is not victim and oppressed and it's not believer and heretic. The fundamental category is innocent and guilty

and Christ is innocent and you're all guilty. And that's the most important thing about you. And I just think it's the most important thing about you. And I just think it's important to kind of go back to that, hey, you know what? I'm not saying all beliefs are equal. That's obviously not true. I'm not saying there aren't places for forms of division, provisional division. Peter Leithart talks a lot about that, where, hey, you know what? We disagree on this thing.

And I really feel like it's of a lot of consequence. And I feel like it's getting to the place where I have to consider whether or not it would be, you know, appropriate, righteous, holy to be in fellowship with you. What I'm saying is we've just become way too comfortable making that call for a whole host of issues that deserve a lot more scrutiny. Because again, if God and Christ can call Jesus and Gentiles to exist in the same churches, then I do think we should stop giving ourselves so much credit about some of our modern moral

and political divisions. Your church, do you have a pretty ideologically diverse congregation? Yeah, we really do. I mean, we're not a perfect church, but when it comes to ideology, we are, I think it would be safe to say, a lot more diverse than normal.

Part of that is due to the fact that we have two lead pastors and we are different. Again, Dave's a Calvinist. Again, he's a cool one, but he's Calvinist. He's more conservative than me. I wouldn't call myself a progressive, but I am not one who identifies as a conservative either. And so when you've got two people talking from these different vantages over a long

period of time, we've been together for more than a decade, it's kind of inevitable that a more diverse group of people end up calling the church home. Now that's not always easy. It comes with plenty of challenges, but yeah, it is fairly ideologically diverse. And people know that you and the code lead pastor are different on some things, right? I mean, and so you're in a sense, you're modeling unity across differences. Now, now maybe your differences aren't as, aren't as vast as maybe some people in the pews. I'm curious. So when you do have really strong ideological differences on really important

issues like the ones we've kind of mentioned in your church, do you encourage them to ignore those differences or discuss those differences. I've even frame it that way. It's like, well, we should probably discuss them. But how, so how do you, well, I'll let you answer that. If it is discussed, then I want to know what are some things you help each side do as they engage in a fruitful discussion. Yeah. You can't just sweep them under the rug. And so that's why I really try to make clear that what I'm arguing for in the book is not middle ground. You know, I'm not saying we should all be moderate to say... Right. Milk

toast. Yeah, like politics don't matter. Social stuff doesn't matter. And that's kind of what I have with a lot of our more, you know, just just let's just find the middle ground. We don't need to talk about politics sort of people like, no, the gospel is, replace political with social, if you want it. That helps you feel better. Like, that's fine. But the gospel is obviously inherently social. It has always had sociological implications. We are the body of Christ in the world, you know? And so, we are political and the gospel is political. And so, it's not about saying all that stuff can't be talked about. I think that's a huge mistake. But it's about rather realizing that we're going to talk about these things honestly and charitably fairly, and it's going to be an in-house

conversation. And so there are different ways we model it. I mean, A, when some issue comes up, one of the good things about having another lead pastor who is, let's say in this instance, he's more conservative than me is he keeps me honest. Because I know, and so do the other thoughtful, more conservative people than me in the room, I know if I make some backhanded comment about, He's not going to let you get away with it. Oh no, I'm not going to get away with it. I'm going to hear about it.

And that's a good thing for me. It's annoying. Yeah. And it would have been easier to just go do my own thing. But I think that speaks to like what the church is at its best. I mean, throughout history, man, the church has been the most unifying social organization

in world history. Like I don't think that's hyperbolic at all. It clearly has been. It brought together people who would have never, ever belonged together, right? That was one of the coolest things about the early church. You had all these rich and poor, and men and women, all that slaves, and it was amazing.

But sadly, the church has really fallen prey to what Bill Bishop, he wrote a book called The Big Sort a few years back. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but he just talked about how America is increasingly sorting into communities of people who all think the same things. That's literally measurable. He did a great deal where you measure the amount of people who lived in landslide counties

during elections and so counties where it was like 90% for one candidate or the other. And moral of the story is, you know, like the overwhelming majority of Americans now live in landslide counties. Why? Well, because we've got more capacity to choose now where we want to live and who we want to be with. And when we get the choice to choose, we always choose sameness. And so sadly, the church is meant to be like the one place on planet earth where the unsorting of humanity occurs, right? And we get clumped together

with these people that only God could make us be a community with. And instead, we have in many ways perpetuated this sorting. And so churches are now ideologically sorted in much the way they were racially sorted 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. So I've been taking AG1 now consistently for almost two years, and I can't more highly recommend it. AG1 is my number one go-to nutrition supplement. I've tried all kinds of different supplements. I've taken tons of vitamins and green powders and other

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Hey friends, my book, Exiles, The Church in the Shadow of Empire is out now. I am so excited and a bit nervous about the release of this book. This is a topic I've been thinking about for many, many years, and finally put pen to paper to write out all my thoughts. Specifically, I'm addressing the question, what is a Christian political identity? As members of Christ's global, multi-ethnic, upside-down kingdom

scattered across the nations, how should we as members of that kingdom think through and interact with the various nations that we are living under. So the book is basically a biblical theology of a Christian political identity. We look at the nation of Israel, we look at the exile of Israel, we look at several parts of the New Testament, the life and teaching of Jesus, several passages in the book of Acts, the letters of Paul, do a deep dive into 1 Peter and the book of Revelation, and then explore some contemporary points of application. So I would highly encourage you to check out my book, Exiles, and would love to hear what

you think. Whether you hate the book, love it, or still thinking through it, I'd love to hear what you think by dropping a review on Amazon or, I don't know, post a blog, just, you know, ripping it to shreds. I don't really care. I would love for you to just wrestle with this really important topic in this really volatile political season that we're living in. What, how do you make sense of, I mean, I don't know. I don't know if you'd address this in your book. I'm guessing you probably don't. It's just kind of an off, off like

a peripheral, I think important, but peripheral question. How do you make sense of two honest, good thinking, Bible believing believers who have just wildly different ideological differences. We can, we can go back to the 2016 election and we can do that. I can even play the play of the game. People can look at my baby like you did look at Trump and say, are you kidding me? How in the world would you think that this person has the, you know, he a clinical narcissist believes his own lies and just immoral on so many levels and just bombastic and divide what on what planet would, you know, the other side is going to say, well, let's talk about the other side. As Bill Burr said, don't know if you're a bill Burr fan comedian. I, I don't know. What's that? I said, indeed. I am. Okay. He said shortly after he's like, okay, here are options. This race is dope. And the devil, like, and

he just would go back and forth. He's like, so, so, and so the, I think the Trumpers are kind of like, well, okay, let's talk about your candidate. You know, here you have this hyper hawkish warmonger for one, a super corrupt can't believe a word she says, you know, and like, golly, then you start talking about like, you know, her and Bill's good friend, Jeffrey Epstein, you know, like just all the crates like, you know, I I'm over here trying to flip a coin to, you know, like just all the crates, like, you know, I I'm over here trying to flip a coin to, you know, avoid voting for the devil and you're getting all over me as if you have another better option. So anyway, I, and we can go on. I'll be there. So many examples we can get like, so how do you, how do you, I have, I have a suggestion, but I'm

going to hear your thoughts first, man. I've just always, I've always been of the belief that, you know, God could have made all of this as just simple as possible for us. The Bible could have been a lot longer, you know, and it could have covered, man, just all the infinite God and His infinite wisdom could have covered every single base that we needed covered so that we never had to ask any of these questions. And you know, I eventually got to a point where I just had to make my peace with, for whatever reason, God has decided not to give us perfect clarity on a lot of these things. Really good and reasonable people can disagree on them.

If God saw fit to allow for these disagreements among good and reasonable people, then I'm just going to need to make my peace with it a little bit instead of insisting on imposing my interpretation of righteousness and rightness on it. Because again, at the end of the day, we are all at the mercy of massive mysteries that we did not choose. And as such, I think we should treat each other

with great tenderness and mercy. And if we can just do that, man, then I think a lot of these other things, just the temperature will come down on them and we can start to actually have conversations about them as opposed to what we're doing right now. Because what we're doing right now is, I think a lot of people who are in more kind of

the culture war mindset on right and left, dude, when you think you're in a war, you don't care about play and fair. Yeah. Because you're not trying to find reconciliation or communion. You just want to win. And we have too many people, and particularly too many public intellectuals, too many Christian public intellectuals who just want to win. And people who just want to win are not good arbiters of truth, because victory is more important than truth and it's more important than communion.

It's such a betrayal of a basic standard of Christian leadership. Like, like I just want to win cultural power. Like show me the verse that even comes close to like saying that, but it's for righteousness sake, Preston. It's, it's for the gospel. Yeah. I can see. Yeah. I mean, I got a lot of thoughts about that, but that, that is the, that is a response. Yeah. In this case, it's, we need to throw out. We need to throw out the kind of like foot washing, non-violent kind of, but we need to just, we need to bring out the big guns for this because this threat is so significant. This is a threat to democracy. This is a whatever, you know, do you, do you find that most of these ideological tensions, differences, arguments, fights are along, I mean, many of the political lines, as I mean, are you dealing with like, you know, debates about the age of the earth and how dare

you, you know, or like, or is it all, most of which come down to political or politicized issues? For instance, something like maybe immigration. I don't think that's just a political issue. I think that's a theological Bible says a lot about immigration, but the way Christians think about it is typically, you know, whether you listen to CNN or Fox news, you're going to, that's typically going to form your lens through which you're even thinking about this issue, which that is a problem in itself. No, I'm a big believer. I mean, what you're hitting on there is kind of what Howard Walsh talks a lot about, where he's like, you know,

people ask him if he teaches theology or ethics, and he's like, there's no difference. That's, they're the same thing. And so I'm a big believer in that. At the end of the day, there's really no difference in theology and ethics. Your question though about, you know, whether or not the ideological differences

in the church are more social or more theological, I guess, might be a way to frame it. What's really interesting, man, is so back when I wrote Faith in the Shadows, when it came to issues of science, like I walked the plank on that one a ways back at my church. So we've had some very candid conversations about all that. But what's really interesting is five, six years ago, I would do a lot of Q&A's with our college students. We have a university here in our town and we do Q&A's and, you know, man, it was all theology nerd questions about, yeah, age of the earth, sovereignty,

atonement, theodicy, you know, just like all the standard stuff nerds like you and me love to talk about, right? But then I went back, it's probably a couple years ago, and did another Q&A, it had been a while. And dude, I kid you not, every single question was about social issues. There was nothing about problem of evil, sovereignty, you know, reconciling theology and science, none of it. It was all social issues. And I think that really speaks to the way in which younger generations, like for them,

it's not a bad thing at all, it's just an observation. This intersection of theology and sociology is just where their minds and hearts are for all sorts of reasons, and they are less interested in the kind of classic modern theological quarrels and questions. And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about. And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about. And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about. And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about. And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about. And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about.

And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about. And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about. And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about. And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about. And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about. And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about. And I think that's the biggest thing that we've been talking about. And I think that it is the hardest year for pastors, right? So many pastors said it was, it was exhausting. Your most challenging year. So many pastors dropped

to said, I can't do this anymore. Um, churches died. Oh, several churches that literally split down the middle. Um, and it was, yeah, it was almost, it was over. Like, should we have a mask mandate or not? You know, like we're, yeah. And I, like I've often said in the podcast, you know, apparently the gates of hell cannot stand against the kingdom of God, but a six inch mask hand. Like what, what are we doing here? You know? And I, and I, and I obviously be like, well, it's, it's not about the man. It's about loving your neighbor. It's about that. You know? Okay. Okay. I, I don't want to trivialize some of these issues too

much, but I think I also don't want to inflate them beyond what they, you know, I, I, I going back, I think I want to go to the source. Like I think the source of people's ideology around mostly political, social, social issues, I think that's the root of it all. And this goes all the way back to how news outlets have become so compartmentalized. I think a lot of that has to do with the monetary system of how people are even getting the news. Like back in the olden days, right? You got the newspaper and because the newspaper company wanted to sell it, right? I'm sure. But no, think about it though. The newspaper or local journals, whatever, they wanted to sell to as many people as they could.

So they couldn't be complete, so one-sided because they wanted to sell to Republicans and Democrats. But now everything is so segmented and I've had experts explain the, you know, the whole monetary system of how this all works. But now it's like, you can create an echo chamber and deliver the kind of news that one is going to confirm all the biases, biases of this little tribe you're targeting. And number two is going to create anger and fear towards the other side. Well, you multiply that times a thousand and now everybody's got the little segmented outlet. And that's why you get people that I just, I just watched a, Oh man, as a two hour debate on Israel,

Palestine, two people on one side, two people on the other. And, and, and both sides were just so bewildered. They were like, on what, what they literally both one said, what planet are you living? And they both had these kinds of narratives and he could trace that all back to where are you getting your information from? And I, and I do this because I, I, I, I try to dabble in different outlets. I'm like, oh, if I actually trusted this person, like I would totally be like on what planet is everyone living on? And then I would say, well, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I different outlets. I'm like, Oh, if I actually trusted this person, like I would totally be like on what planet is everyone else living on? You know? So I

don't know what that means. I just, I wonder if part of discipleship or probably pastor people is maybe identifying that a little bit and maybe introducing some news fasts or, you know, or just, I don't know. I don't, anyway, you're the pastor. You're the middle-ist. Is this, hey, is this resonating? And number two, how do you address this as a pastor? Will people listen?

Yes. Echo chambers, as it turns out, are very lucrative. You know what I mean? They're the most lucrative thing there is. And again, you can always, you always have the out. Like when anybody pushes you on, hey, do you really think this is good? Do you really think this is healthy?

Are you really being charitable? Again, man, this is where Satan's so clever. Like he doesn't use obvious outright evil things to weaponize. He uses something as good as our desire for righteousness and weaponizes it into self-righteousness. And it's often very difficult to discern the difference in those things. And so, it's just really easy to rationalize. I mean, that's the thing I've really, really noticed,

mainly for myself. It's just easy for me to rationalize behaving however I want, disregarding everything scripture says about how to behave and talk to other Christians. If I think I'm right, none of the rules apply. When it comes to media and the way this is normalized nowadays, that's obviously true because on everything you just said. And so for example, during COVID, one of the things that we created for our church

is something that we called a social media guide. And so framed it as a, hey, you know, if you want tips on how to have a healthy social media diet, here's some things that you can do. I had six tips. It's about curating your news the right way, paying attention to who you get it from. One of the big ones is pay more attention to local news than national news. I found that to be one of the most helpful things. Ezra Klein,

he's a columnist for the New York Times. I don't know if you ever listen to stuff. He's agnostic, maybe atheist. I don't know, but he's a columnist for the New York Times. I don't know if you ever listen to his stuff. He's agnostic, maybe atheist. I don't know, but he's a really thoughtful dude. He wrote a book called Why We're Polarized. Don't know if you've read that one. Probably four years ago. Highly recommend. I interact with it a lot in my new book.

And he just talks about how media coverage has tilted a lot toward national politics because it's more lucrative, but national politics, like, we just can't really, like, a human can't do politics on a national level very well. Like, for all the talk about us being global citizens of a global society, kind of, that's BS. Like, you are a teeny tiny creature who will always inhabit one square foot of dirt at a time. And so, you need to learn to belong to your actual community in a healthy way and help it be a better place

instead of imagining yourself of a global citizen, of a global community whose job it is to save the nation or make perfect justice rain down from the heavens. And so, trying to get people to live more locally and where their feet actually are is one of the most important things that we've done at my church to help people channel this desire for righteousness in more productive ways instead of it just being this abstract outrage that doesn't accomplish anything and creates tons of anxiety and unintended consequences. That's good. Yeah. No, I've heard more and more people talk about that. I think that's totally right.

Like what's more productive for fighting against injustice in the world? Like rattling off angry tweets about some national global issue or walking down the street and actually being an embodied presence of Christ. I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it spend just, you know, drinking from whatever specific outlet is trying to get me so angry that I keep clicking and clicking and clicking and they get ad revenue. Like I think we all kind of know, or maybe though, I don't know. Like

I think when you explain it, people kind of know, but they can't stop or whatever, but at least they can acknowledge that. But everybody knows that like you will have more impact in a person's life in your embodied local community than just getting fired up about some national thing that you can't do anything about. I totally agree. I'm just maybe less hopeful that people will take action.

Yeah, I mean, you're probably right about that. I never describe myself as an optimistic person, necessarily, but it's just trying to, I'm a big believer in accepting reality for what it is. So we can't hope to make any headway on this day or the other if we don't at least accept the constraints of the way God made the world. And the way God made the world is that your teeny tiny

little evolved chump brain can really only know a small handful of people. Most humans throughout history knew what, dude? Like 100 people? That was it. We all kind of know but don't know well enough thousands, hundreds of thousands of people and we're relationally overwhelmed. And we've got these like ancient hardware,

ancient tribal hardware up here. And we're trying to upload all this ultra social software that's just beyond our capacity to run. And so what I think is kind of breaking one way or the other, and there are all sorts of implications here for mental health crisis, like you name it, is we're just overwhelmed. And so we have to decide if we're gonna stop pretending

like we can build a tower, a Bible up to the heavens and be global citizens, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or if actually the best thing that you could do to make the world, capital T, capital W, a better place would be for you to be a good member of your church, your community, and a good neighbor. And what I think is really interesting is in the book, I spend a lot of time seeing what, all these really influential, thoughtful people have to say about how to change the world. So Barack Obama, Willie James Jennings, Mother Teresa,

not conservatives, like these are people from all over the spectrum. What's interesting, man, is you really get down to the nub of what all these people are most pragmatically suggesting. And they are all basically saying, people are most, you know, pragmatically suggesting. And they are all basically saying, hey, be a good neighbor. Like that's all anybody's ever saying because wise people, no matter where they come from,

understand that that's the ultimate form that our compassion can take. And everything else is a little bit of spitting into the wind. Find your Kolkata, right? Isn't that what Mother Teresa said? Yeah. Yeah. Well, she had the whole, if you want to change the world, go home and love your family, like a riff on that. And that's, Barack Obama said something very similar though,

in the aftermath of George Floyd's murder, he was talking about policing and it got no coverage because it was just far too reasonable. So nobody wanted to hear it. It was an inflammatory problem. It didn't make people angry. It was ridiculous. He was It didn't make people angry. It was ridiculous. He was like quick complaining about everything. And if you wanna like help your community have a better police department,

then why don't you go to your actual police chief and talk to him? He'd probably love to talk with you and he'd probably love for you to give some help. Oh, that's far too reasonable though. So your church, there's ideological diversity. Would you say, and I know you're not a perfect church, not a perfect pastor, blah, blah, blah. Would you say you have helped your congregation

elevate their unity in Christ, maybe above their differences? And what have you done to accomplish that? I think we have come a long way in normalizing the fact that there will be differences and not just, I mean, to your point, you asked some good questions about it. I'm not saying all of our differences are inconsequential. Some of them are very consequential. But again, if Jesus just holds us together and inconsequential differences, like, what is that? It's not very impressive.

It was Jesus's capacity to bring people together with very consequential differences that was the most beautiful thing about the early church. And so I don't try to belittle our differences. Like some of them, I do think we get over our skis a little bit and I think it's good to poke fun at that. But to talk about consequential differences that we have, to treat them normally, and again one of the most important things in my opinion is to never act like it's only one kind of people in the room,

let's say on a Sunday morning. You can tell really quick when someone's up there, they're preaching, they're communicating, and they are working under the assumption that the room is solely filled with like their kind of people. And the church just picks up on that over time, man. And so people who show up and maybe don't vibe with you on your politics or your view of this, that, or the other, you are not so subtly telling them like,

hey, this is not your place. You're gonna need to go find another place because this is a place for people like me. And so to normalize, you know, that VISTA is not, people ask me all the time about things that they know I don't agree with, you know, because they know me personally or they read between the lines and yet they also see that we do some things I don't agree with. And what I always tell them is, man, VISTA's, that's the name of my church, VISTA's doctrine and policy is not what does Austin Fisher think about A through Z.

You know, it's important for them to see me not get my way on things, have somebody else get up and preach 50% of the time who doesn't always say exactly what I would say, and to see that we can still belong together in the same church body, even if we have consequential differences.

And so to not take shortcuts in our rhetoric, to always make room for the other and to let them know that they have space in the way we communicate, I think is really, really important. Hey, friends, if theology in the raw has blessed or challenged you in any significant way, would you consider supporting the show financially? You can do so through Patreon at patreon.com forward slash theology in the raw. All the information is in the show notes. You can support the show for as little as five bucks a month. And in doing so, you get access to all kinds of different premium content.

And most of all, you just get access to the theology in the raw community. We have all kinds of awesome chats and messages back and forth. And it just, it means the world to us that you support the show as the show has grown. So have all the expenses and all the work that goes into pulling it off. So again, if you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology raw.

And I just want to thank my, the people that are already supporting the show. Thank you so much for keeping this show show not only going, but also thriving. So patreon.com forward slash theology in Iran. How do you avoid, I'm curious with the, with the, the dual role, you and your co-pastor with some differences. Do you face the problem of I am of Paul, I am of a Paulist. Like people kind of saying, Oh, I really, I'm more on Austin side and other people on the other. Like, and how do you address that? Oh yeah. A hundred percent, man. Like there's in particular, there's this one, there's this

one lady in our church, she's a little bit older. I really doubt she'll listen to this podcast. If so, it's fine. And I love her. But it's just known that she loves Dave way more than me. You know, like she's just a little more, she's just a little more traditional like Southern Baptist in her sensibilities. And so I, it's just inevitable. I'm just gonna rub her a little bit wrong, but she's super gracious to me.

But I always know, I'll let look at it on a Sunday and see where she's sitting. When I walk out, I see just this slight look of disappointment. You know, come across. That's gonna that's going to be hard a little bit. No, is it? No, man. It's really not. It's really not.

You just got to, you know, you got to make your peace with, hey, there are going to be some people who like this. There's going to be some people who like that. It's fine. It's all good. And so what we try to do again is just normalize like I'm for him. He's for me. We're clear.

We're charitable with each other. We have different gifts in different ways. That's fine. just normalize like I'm for him, he's for me, we're clear, we're charitable with each other. We have different gifts in different ways, that's fine. And then also, when we do hit on a topic that's a little bit more controversial, one of the things we'll do a lot is like, I'll have to give like his side's take of it. So for example, we did a series on sexuality

a few years back, used a lot of your resources, shout out Preston Sprinkle Center for Faith, Gender, and Sexuality. Great resources, our church loves them. We were doing a series on that and we were hitting marriage, complementarianism, egalitarianism, et cetera. I would land more on the egalitarian side of that debate, but I understand the complementarian case. It has a rich history and orthodoxy. It can be done well. And so what we did in that one is I made the case

for, hey, here's a good, fair case for what complementarianism would be and look like. And then Dave has to get up there and talk through egalitarianism and what it looks like in its best form. And so that's one thing that you can do to just keep it honest is when you got a difficult topic, man, you again, especially still manning is what I'm saying. Still man, the other side on an issue instead of constantly straw manning it. And that's hard to do though, if you don't genuinely have ideological others in the room with you. So that, okay. So when you, when you model that, like If you just imagine a really smart person on the other side, who's not going to let you get away with a sloppy thought in your case, this is actually reality. But even if other places, you know, but if you just went about talking about issues and

addressing issues with that manner, are you saying it sounds like you're saying like that almost like establishes a kind of just culture, a little air in the room. And then you're like, well, I'm goinges a kind of just culture a little air in the church of helping people not to Assume they're just in this echo chamber where they can they can throw red meat to the wolves, you know Absolutely, and you get that fights humility and curiosity, you know, and those are important virtues for Christians to have I mean, it's something that you've done really well and why so many people have connected with the greater,

you know, Christmas sprinkle project is the humility and the curiosity. And we've got to get better at teaching our people in churches how to do that instead of shutting it all down again, with the justification that we'll know that doesn't apply because I'm right. I guess, I mean, I do experience it. I mean, I just think about this right now as, as I've even asked the question, like the exiles in Babylon conference where they're that, because it's

almost unfair though. You know, people, most people, you know, 90% of people that come, they're avid listeners of the podcast. The podcast has, you know, it's, it's, it is what it is. And so when people come, they know they're not, it can't be belligerent. They can't be like, they know they're going to be sitting next to people that have different viewpoints. And we've actually taken surveys on things like a egalitarian commentary. And it's pretty split 50, 50, 60, 40. But even then I, I'll ask the question like, you know, and the answer is like, I, you know, I lean commentarium or I'm staunchly commentary and I lean egalitarian. I'm saying, you know,

and the staunchly is very small. Most of it's kind of like, they know, like this is, I know this is complicated. Could I defend it on a stage against somebody super smart? Probably not. You know, so, um, Israel Palestine was like split on a lot of stuff and, and all, even like, well, what I did a survey about sexuality, do you affirm same sex marriage or not? It was mo you know, very high on the traditional side, some undecided small percentage were affirming. But even there, I talked to one person who's very public figure who came to the conference and, and very, you know, day affirming, you know, and, and we, we take a very, I don't want to open up that can, but I would say we're very, very clearly not. I even said from the stage, like I'll take a bullet for the traditional view of marriage and anybody who presents on sexuality is whole suit traditional views. So I just, yeah. In

talking to, there was an affirming person that came and I even said like, has a little, you know, it seemed kind of like I was a little nervous, not sure what to expect, but I feel so loved. Even though I completely disagree with your position, I could disagree with everybody's speaking about sexuality, you know, but like, I, I know I don't, I feel safe here in the sense that I can come listen to the other sessions, whatever, agree to disagree and people are gonna look at me like, what are you doing here? You know? So, um, yeah, anyway, what am I I'm saying? Okay. I guess I've experienced that on a conference level, but that's kind of cheating.

Like that, that's not fair. Like, you know, like I, it's easy to do this on a conference level, but that's kind of cheating. Like that's not fair. Like, you know, like I, it's easy to do this on a podcast, a thousand times harder in a church day to day. And this is where I'm like, okay, what the little glimpse I get at this conference every year, could I, could that happen to the church? Cause that, that's way more difficult. I guess I'm just- It can. No, I mean, it's not going to be done. It's not going to be done perfectly, I guess I'm just- It can. I mean, it's not gonna be done. It's not gonna be done perfectly, but it can be done. And again, our kind of modern social primary points

of conflict that we've got right now, I think it's important not to say they're inconsequential. They're not, some are, but some of them are very consequential, but they are not more profound than let's say the Jew-Gentile debate that the earliest Christians had to reconcile. And I sometimes think like maybe God chose

the Jew-Gentile division as the place in history to bring about this reconciling work because it was the most profound division that has ever existed. And so if God and Christ could bridge that one, then we all need to get over ourselves a little bit and pretending like, well, no, our divisions, they're just so much more complicated than those

that we couldn't possibly break bread with someone who disagreed with us on ABCDEFG. I mean, among the 12, Jesus picked a zealot and a tax collector. That would be like a member of Hamas and IDF, you know, like, I mean, almost literally Andrew was perhaps an Essene, you know, he's a father of John the Baptist. And so you've got a guy who thinks we should withdraw a guy who thinks we should, you know, partner with them and ally guy who thinks we should kill them all. And Jesus had

the audacity to call those three guys. I sometimes think about how funny it was to be, guess Andrew's called first, right? Think Andrew's called first. I think so. Andrew's sitting there and he gets selected and he knows it's probably because of Peter, but he's fine with that. He's in there and he's like, man, this is gonna be great.

And then Matthew gets called and he's like, are you? It sounded like he just said Matthew. There's just no way, man. I can't ally myself. This is too unholy. I can't be a part of this. And so all along the way, I just think that I have more clarity

about Jesus's command that we should be one, and that he has committed to make us one, than I have clarity about a lot of these modern social issues, frankly. And so again, I'm not saying they're inconsequential, but I'm clarity about a lot of these modern social issues, frankly. And so again, I'm not saying they're inconsequential, but I'm saying it is more clear to me that Jesus has commanded us to find some way, despite our differences to stay one, then it is clear to me that I am obviously on God's side on all these various modern social debates. What's been, what's been a, I guess, a, a, an example of a, a big challenge or, or I

want to say trial you had, but like, you know, did you have, do you have an incidence or whatever a person or a scenario where I'm trying to form unity around differences was just extra difficult or maybe blew up in your face or you would, you wish you could do it over again? How much time you got buddy? We've had plenty of instances of that. I mean I give you one in particular. So back, man, it's probably at least five years ago, maybe a little further back, and this is the first story I tell in the book. I was doing a sermon on race, racial justice. There is an African-American guy in Dallas, I think his name was Botham Jean,

who was killed in this really tragic accident where this off-duty police officer comes home to what she thinks is her apartment. She accidentally walks in the door next door, maybe she was on the wrong floor, I can't remember what her apartment. She accidentally walks in like the door next door. Maybe she was on the wrong floor. I can't remember what it was, but she walks in the wrong apartment. She walks into Botham Jean, this African-American man's apartment, and she thinks it's some guy in her apartment. It's a really tragic deal that unfolds and she ends up shooting him. And so it's this white female police officer kills unarmed

black man. It's this awful, awful situation. Anyways, the situation got a lot of attention in particular because at the trial, Botham Jean's brother gets up and goes over to this police officer who was, you know, she was obviously devastated by what had happened and the mistake she had made. And he tells her that he forgives her and he goes and gives her a hug. I mean, it's this profound moment of reconciliation. So like, of course, preachers are always looking for, I mean, man, like that's an amazing illustration. And so I used it and thought it was great. 90% of the feedback was amazing. But I had this one African-American couple who I really trust and love come up to me

afterwards and they just shared their perspective that there was perhaps an argument to be made that that was an inappropriate illustration for me to use in that time because they felt like our church had not done enough work to talk about some of the racial reckoning that needs to happen before we just jump to forgiveness. And that's certainly something that I think conservatives have been guilty of over the years when it comes to, let's say, race is we want to just jump to forgiveness. And that's certainly something that I think conservatives have been guilty of over the years when it comes to let's say race, is we wanna just jump to forgiveness really fast before we're willing to do some of the work of,

you know, reparation, you name it. We need to be willing to have those convos. Anyways, so they come and have that convo with me. And, you know, man, I thought I'd hit a home run. And so it was really painful. But as I sat with it, I was like, man, that's, they were probably right about that. And I, I had something to learn there. What's interesting is in that

same sermon, I used an example of Harvard's implicit bias test. You've probably heard of that one. Yeah. It's the most famous sociological test, I think, in the world where, you know, you go take it, it takes 30 seconds, they measure your reaction time to pictures of like white people, black people, and basically no matter how you answer it, the test comes back and tells you that you're racist. Basically, it works. So anyways, I'd use that test as

an example. There are more thorough explanations. That's awesome. I'd use it as an example of how all, you know, white people are basically a little bit racist, and we should just own it, yada, yada, yada. Well, there was this really thoughtful conservative white man who came up to me afterwards and he was like, man, I've just heard there's some problems with that test and it just seems a little like fake science to me and I really don't appreciate the way you did that. So it's like from the complete opposite side and in my mind in that moment, I'm trying to compensate for all white racism ever, which is what a lot of us have been trying to navigate.

I'm like, man, this poor bigoted white man just can't accept that he's racist. I feel bad for him, but he's being an idiot and a loser, and so stop being so racist, dude. I did, not too long later, I don't know if you read the book, I think it's called The Quick Fix by Jesse Single. He basically goes through a lot of these social science

studies and the problem of replication in them, which is a fancy way to say, doesn't appear that some of these studies actually worked because they can't be replicated and they can't measure the things they claim to measure. The biggest one, of course, is this implicit bias test for all sorts of reasons. It's unclear if millisecond different reaction times to pictures is a great indicator for whether or not one is racist.

I read that and I'm like, oh my gosh, turns out I owe this fellow an apology. I have to go apologize. He left churches over it. the way I handled his comment. I had been so condescending and contemptuous of him, he had left our church. And so I had to reach back out to him and say, hey man, I'm not trying to get you to come back to our church. I just want to tell you, I'm sorry because I was more than a little wrong, A, about the test, you were right. And I was really wrong for the way I handled a very reasonable conversation you were trying to have with your pastor.

Man, that's so good. Well bro, I, man, I love your approach to ministry. And I, that, that, that model of that dual co-lead pastors that have healthy diversity. Obviously if the diversity is so wild, I think that'd be super confusing, but man, that gives me hope. Anyway, your book us for them seeking higher ground and the culture, holy Wars. There it is. There it is. I still wait for a copy, man. Your publicist is on the way, bro. You live kind of up North. I live close to Canada. I know it's like international.

Person on staff is from there. So I do know that it's pronounced boy. See, boy, as we Texas would do it. So it's it's on its way. It's just on a long journey. Well, I'm looking forward to checking it out. This is an area that I'm deeply interested in. So thanks again, bro, for being on theology.

Now, I really appreciate you and your work. Always a pleasure, man. Thank you for having me again. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.