Theology in the Raw - Rethinking Orphanages and Orphan Care: Brandon Stiver

Episode Date: March 18, 2024

In this conversation, we talk all about Brandon's previous work in an Orphanage in Moshi, Tanzania, and how he came to realize that Orphanages are doing more harm than good when it comes to caring for orphans and their families. Brandon Stiver is an advocate, educator, and practitioner on behalf of orphans and vulnerable children with a special emphasis on seeing children grow up in families globally and for those families to be strengthened. He is the full-time director for CarePortal in Seattle, and a professor at Vanguard University and a podcaster at Think Global, Do Justice. Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Brandon Stiver, who I'm here with live in my basement. This is the first ever, well, the first ever live Theology in the Raw recording in my basement with an actual physical guest in the new basement. Yes, you can touch me. I know, I know. He's real. He's real.

Sometimes I wonder if my guests are just AI or something. You're real. You're live in the flesh. So welcome to Theology in a Raw Basement. Thanks, man. It's good to be with you. So Brandon was on the show, was it about two years ago-ish? Yeah.

Yeah. About two years ago. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I kept calling you the wrong name. It's good to be back. Yeah, I know.

I kept calling you the wrong name. It's just a turnaround for me, dude. Yeah. The first time around, you kept calling me Brian for like half, you know, I had to, I had to, I had to, and now here it's like, well, I slept on the other side of this wall. So, so I had a good bit of a come up. No, I, my, uh, when that, when that show came up, uh, I had friends from church. I was like, Oh dude,

you wrote theology in the row and my pastor's name is Brian. So I told him, I was like, dude, it was kind of like you were on the show because half the show he called me Brian. So it was kind of both of us together. no it was we had a good laugh i don't know why that's not the first time i i have messed up names especially pronunciation i'm just yeah that's funny well we've gotten to break bread a few times since then and you haven't done it again so thank you yeah um so uh i literally almost said bro don't do it brandon has almost has become i would say kind of my um my go-to resource when it comes to thinking through anything related to missions cross-cultural

ministry uh or orphan care which we're going to get into short-term missions just that whole space that i don't know and we can just get right into it and say there's been a lot of church engagement some of which has been awesome some of which has been okay some of which has been well intended but producing not really good things outcomes yeah that's a soft way of putting it so uh there's a famous book called when helping hurts you know when people try to help people and actually is you're well intended but you're actually hurting them right um and that was i don't know turning point but that was that's one that kind of like brought awareness maybe to a lot of people that kind of were feeling something and then that book was really influential in my life at least totally

and then gosh that was like 15 plus years ago i think so anyway thank you for being a resource yeah and orphan care is really one of those places. And Brian's been on your show. He's been on our show. He's a great guy. And that was really kind of like a clarion call, I think, a lot, especially when Helping Hurts coming out probably came out. I mean, I remember getting into it in like 2010.

So it was probably like 2008, 2009, 2010, somewhere in there when Brian and Steve Corbett released that book. And it was like a clarion call because, I mean, especially, I mean, you were in SoCal. So as I were part of that kind of big missional movement, and even for those like in the orphan care space, it was just kind of like, well, what are we going to do? Well, let's, you know, let's go build orphanages. Let's go help, you know, orphans, youans. And that was kind of like always the thing. And that's the value of hearing from people like Brian Fickert and Steve Corbett, where they're

like, well, let's actually think what these engagements look like. And the funny thing is, I remember reading When Helping Hurts. I mean, you bring up that book in particular, which was so seminal in a lot of ways. I was working at an orphanage thinking like, oh yeah, this is really good. This is really good. Not even like having a dawn on me necessarily that it's like, oh, actually some of the practices that we're promoting in this form of orphan care is actually hurting. You know what I mean? So it's actually kind of interesting where it's like on one hand, you can read a book like that. And a lot of what Brian was pulling from was from other development professionals like Jayakumar Christian, Bryant Myers, and his book, Walking with the Poor.

So, he's pulling from a lot of those scholars, but then making it like something that was that everybody can get into. And, you know, that book was really successful. But it is one of those interesting things where it's like, people are reading that and not even realizing, oh, actually, as, as I'm reading this, I'm actually still kind of a part of that industry of kind of causing harm more than actually helping. And it's just kind of interesting because I first read that book, even when I was still working at the orphanage and didn't go through my own process of actually rethinking what

that practice looks like. Tell us, so tell us a bit about your background. So, and people can go back and maybe in the show notes, I'll try to put the actual show number so people can just kind of go find it. It was about two years ago when you came on, you gave a long overview of kind of your transition from orphanage-based orphan care to family-based orphan care. Is that the right phrasing or? Yeah, that works. Yeah. I i'll let you fill me up let's go back to your yeah yeah working in an orphanage and what are some things that led to your your your rethinking of that model you know it's actually funny if you kind of so i first initially you know entered this space with what really felt like a call from god

and i was at you know rock harbor church in 2007 in Costa Mesa, California. And it was like, feeling like God told me, go run an orphanage in Africa, you know? So, it was very much so. So, a lot of kind of my journey, even from a practice standpoint, has always really been intertwined with my sense of spiritual calling. You know, this is what God told me to go do. And a lot of what I've had to do is kind of unpack those things simultaneously, you know, and even come to realization that, you know, this is a journey. This is discipleship. This is a long-term process. Sometimes we kind of view calling as kind of like this like point in time, and I'm going to arrive there, and then I've fulfilled my calling. But I really think there's a component of spiritual formation

and discipleship there where it's actually God's just calling us to get on the road, and then we'll learn as we go along. So, I really kind of feel like, yeah, it started in 2007, you know, feeling the sense of calling, you know, at my megachurch in Southern California. I had one year left of undergrad at that time. This is 2007, quite a while ago now. And, you know, actually started to get my feet moving. And I think that that was kind of the impetus was that sense of calling. And God used words that I was able to understand. You know, if God were to say, you know, Brandon, I want you to, you know, go establish a family-based care ministry in Northern Tanzania or whatever, I would have been like, I can't even find Tanzania

on a map, you know, and what's family-based care? But it was like, it was like, go run an orphanage. It was like, oh, okay, I'm supposed to be caring for orphans. I need to start this journey. So, a lot of kind of my maturation, discipleship and so forth was really kind of based out of that initial calling, but then also recognizing God's calling me forward. So, I ended up, I did the short-term thing. I did the child sponsorship thing. I ended up working at an orphanage. I basically did all this stuff that now I would tell people, actually, let's rethink that, you know, including the child sponsorship, including the short-term missions, which, you know, we've talked about before. And I was meeting with some of your guys' interns that you guys are going out to Africa. And, you know, so those are really pertinent conversations,

especially for people that are Americans and have a heart for the nations, which we absolutely want to affirm and encourage because we should be thinking globally. We should be thinking in terms of what's going on in other nations and what's going on in other countries and how can we help the vulnerable. You know, the people that are impoverished in a place like Sub-Saharan Africa is a whole other level. And it's so much more intractable in many ways than you might even find here, you know, in Boise or Washington where I live or whatever. So, it is important that we are thinking about, you know, and pursuing justice for those, you know, people in other countries. So, I think God just got my feet moving. But, you know, working at the orphanage,

you start to kind of see some things, especially with the kid's family. Like, I think that that was a big thing. Like, when we think of orphans, we think of Oliver Twist or, you know, Harry Potter. It's like, you know, they have no parents. And that's our definition. But the reality is most kids that are in orphanages do still have, you know, four out of five of them still have one, if not both of their parents still alive, much less the fact that they have other family. Four out of five. Four out of five. 80% of kids in orphanages have

at least one surviving parent. Yeah. That's the global number. And it'll vary, you know, sometimes it can go up to like 90%. That would be like the number in Haiti. Sometimes it's less, you can get a little bit more, what we call gatekeeping, uh, which is just basically making sure it's like, it's like an assessment and like evaluating, you evaluating, should a kid enter alternative care? Should they not? You can get more of that in other countries, which will kind of help kids stay at home. But yeah, overall, the number is generally around 80%. So four out of five kids.

And that's certainly the case in places like East Africa, where I was doing missions work. So yeah, you start to kind of learn, okay, these kids have family. And even if the kid is a true double orphan, meaning they've lost both of their parents, they still have other family, you know, that they have a connection to. And what I started to kind of consider was the fact that we would actually see some of these, you know, family members that would come and they would visit with the kids. And I never stopped and thought like, okay, this, you know, it's an American run orphan American run orphanage. If you check the 990 form, it's like half a million dollars a year, 26 kids. Why aren't we investing some of these funds out into the community to actually help these kids grow up with their family? But that just was never even a thought so half a million a year for 26 kids i would imagine a place like tanzania or most countries in east africa that can go you can care for more than 26 oh i mean yeah so if it was a poverty issue why they dropped why they couldn't

take care of a kid that could be easily solved with the money that's going right right right and and it's just a matter of where do we want to invest? So if our cost per beneficiary, if we were to kind of talk about this from like global development type of language, if we were to say that that's like $16,000, $17,000 a kid, and it's just like, yeah, raising kids in Tacoma, Washington was pretty expensive. I don't spend $17,000 per kid. So it's a pretty inefficient model. And then at the end of the day, you have, unfortunately, tragically, you have kids that are separated from their family, separated from their community. And we, as people that are outsiders, that are hopefully finding a way to, in a healthy and in a productive and in a safe way, come alongside them.

We could be doing that in another way by providing other types of services. So, we really came out of that orphanage time. And I think actually the biggest light bulb was after we left the children's home later that same year, my daughter was born, my daughter Promise. And for me, because I was very, my calling was very wrapped up in my emotion, you know, the emotion of that experience was almost kind of subverted when I felt the actual emotion of what it felt like to be a father. Because I had always kind of had that as my identity. Like, I'm a father to these orphans, you know, and God's a father to the fatherless. So, I'm doing the same thing as him or, you know, and just kind of like taking that mantle and that identity when in reality, I wasn't a father to them. They needed fathers, you know, and they needed mothers,

but there was no way that I could actually fill that role for them. And nonetheless, that's what they needed. But once I actually became a father, it was like the emotional thing that actually made my reasoning. So again, relatively intractable, you know, it actually started to turn when I, when I, when that emotion, you know, switched. So, so, uh, so let's just summarize. So one of the main, well, I'll just call it, you know, problems with, with, uh, orphanage based orphan care is that 80% of these kids have one surviving parent. Is it usually due to money that they drop them off at the orphanage or is there, could there be an unsafe home environment? I guess then

the kid wouldn't be dropping. I mean, right. So yeah. What are some, what are some of the reasons why this single possible, both parents are dropping their kids off at orphanages? So poverty is a big factor, but poverty is not the only factor. So if you were to go into a place like Moshi, Tanzania, where I was, or you guys are going to be traveling to Entebbe, Uganda, you know, on this trip with some friends and colleagues of mine as well, you can go around and you're going to find lots of families that are dealing with poverty. And do all those kids live in orphanages? No, most of them live home, right? All those kids live in orphanages? No, most of them live home, right?

And even if you look at 140 million orphans throughout the world, well, only like 5.4 kids live in orphanages. So even if we were thinking like orphans need orphanages, which is not actually the case, orphans need families, the reality is we can never build enough orphanages to solve that orphan crisis, right? So poverty is a reason and loss of a primary caregiver is a reason, but it's normally a combination of multiple. So, what we tend to say is it's poverty plus. So, it's poverty plus something else. Poverty plus disability. Poverty plus a family event, loss of a primary caregiver. Poverty plus desire to access education, poverty plus,

and it's, and it's always, it's always something else. So it's, so it's never poverty just by itself, but sometimes it's poverty that then leads to another issue or poverty just plus another issue that kind of develops. Okay. So there's multiple factors, but poverty seems to be kind of a main one. It's an undergirding one. And that's, and that's why we need community development. And that's why we need, you know, even, even from an international and global development standpoint, we have these, you know, multinational corporations that create these kind of long chains of, you know, like, you know, if I were to look at my shirt, you know, it might say made in such and such country, and then it's sold in this country, and then it's dumped in East

Africa. Multinational corporations are creating these chains. And for us as American Christians, I say, well, what's my role in global missions or global nonprofit work or whatever, is we have to create healthy chains. But what we don't want to do is do the things that, like Brian talks about in his book, you know, that create dependency and so forth. And unfortunately, the orphanage system creates a lot of dependency, and the adult outcomes for those kids are just really bad. What are some things in the environment of the orphanage that most people, maybe they haven't worked in an orphanage, don't realize? Like we've talked it, I mean, it was kind of blowing my mind, like some of the stuff you're telling me, like, you know, like you put a bunch of kids with

probably a lot of trauma, detachment disorder is pretty much every yeah right yeah and like yeah so what it tells us about maybe so we just think there's always you know if you visit an orphanage kids come up you're to your smile you're handing out candy you're giving hugs selfies ig photos you know so it just seems like gosh we're doing so much these kids are happy they've got a good life. They probably had a horrible life before they got into orphanage. Like the perception is really, I can see why people would say, this is amazing. We need more of these orphanages.

So tell us, you worked in orphanage for years. Like what, tell us maybe some of the things people don't realize. Well, there is that kind of gratifying emotional, you know, thing that kind of, that kind of is stirred up, you know, when you're the American and, you know, thing that kind of, that kind of is stirred up, you know, when you're the American and, you know, the, the gates of the, of the orphanage opened up and you're in Latin America or Southeast Asia or Sub-Saharan Africa, wherever you are. And you walk in and the kids are like, yeah, I was, you know, like, and you know, that's, that's actually very gratifying. It would be like addictive, like kind of like, I don't know, was that dopamine or adrenaline something?

Yeah. It's like a thousand likes on Instagram. Oh yeah. And then you, then you add that whole aspect. So, so, I mean, if that is our primary viewpoint, um, then of course, yeah, we're going to walk away thinking like, that's awesome. I'm going to give money there. I'm going to support that system.

I want the best for those kids, which is true, you know? And that was certainly the case for me and different teams that I was a part of. Like you do, you want the best for those kids, but unfortunately the wires just don't always connect because it's like, well, what's the best for those kids? The best for those kids is hopefully to be within a family that's as local as possible. You know? So even something like international adoption should really kind of be almost like a last resort as well. You know what I mean? Like, we should want all of these kids to be in local families.

But going back to what you had asked, you know, the whole kind of cross-cultural dynamic, I mean, I remember, so I went to the children's home that I ended up working at the first time in 2008. We were part of a team from the Christian home that I ended up working at the first time in 2008. We were part of a team from the Christian university that I was, had been attending. I went back the following summer and I saw the same kids and I held up a picture of my team and I said, do you remember them? And I, as I was holding it up, this is before I learned Swahili, but as I held it up, they kept pointing at me in the picture. I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I know. Yes, that's me. But what about him? What about her? I'm pointing at other people in my team and they're like, I don't know who that

is, you know? And it's just kind of like, they forget because it's such a revolving door, you know? So even that, that emotion of saying like, oh, look at these kids. They're running up to me. They love me. They need me. They want me. Let's hug, let's cuddle. Let's, you know, whatever, let's dance, let's tickle. They're getting that with a lot of other people and then they'll forget you, you know? And, and I don't say that to be like, you know, because it was, I understand, like, those are often the best memories for many people that, you know, did volunteering overseas. But the reality is that's your reality. The reality for these kids is that's just a revolving door. And when that team leaves, the kids get bummed out, you know, because that was, that was an adrenaline high for them too. You know,

because like you said, you guys are bringing candy, you guys are playing soccer with them, you guys are doing all this. There is that kind of letdown. Now, you mentioned attachment disorders. Attachment disorders start when the kid has the relationship severed, foremost with the mom, but potentially with other people where they've developed attachment. And there's different people that have different views of attachment, but attachment is a fairly exclusive thing in my estimation and according to people that I've worked and partnered with. I have attachment with my kids. I have attachment with my wife. You have attachment with your mom, your dad, your wife. And it's just like these are very intimate relationships.

When a kid has had those kind of primary attachments, especially with their mom severed, an attachment disorder can develop, right? And sometimes that means they're attaching in a way that is reactive. Sometimes that means that they have a disorganized attachment. Sometimes that means, so there's these different, and I mean, I'm not a neuropsychologist, but there are these kind of different ways that people attach and not all of them are healthy. So then what happens is that attachment has been ruptured. And then now that kid has, you know, not just like the short-term missionaries that come through, but even staff, it's like you're paying staff to go and work with them.

And then, but for those staff, that's a job. So even they might bail, you know, at different points. It's just like, last time I was on your podcast, I was working for one organization. Now I work for a different nonprofit. Like people leave their jobs, you know, people go and they find different work. That's fine. That's normal. That's normal thing for a workplace. But for a child, you know, who that's their residence, that's their home, that's where they live. To have that, it exacerbates the severed attachment that they already had. So attachment disorders are very common. Trauma and abuse is very common. That was something we talked quite a bit about last time I was on the show. So all of these things kind of add up and it's a lot of adversity in a kid's childhood, which is fundamentally detrimental to their development and ultimately who they become

when they're older. Real quick on the detachment disorder thing. Like when, when, when a team of Americans shows up at an orphanage, loves on these kids, plays with them, hugs and tickles them. Right. Hold them, you know, like you're getting the selfies and everything for five days.

And then they leave. What's that doing to somebody with attachment disorder? Like, cause we don't see way by and they're crying. It's great. I'll send you a picture. Right. Right.

Right. I'll be back next summer. Yeah. What's that doing to that disorder? So yeah, it's exacerbating it for them. But, but so, so it's making it pretty categorical. Like that's not like it could be, but it's like, no, no, no, no. It's making it worse. Yeah, for sure. But some people will say that's causing the attachment disorder. That's not the root cause. The root cause is that their primary attachment was severed, but then it gets worse and worse. The more you just kind of revolve people in and say, bond, bond, bond, pull away, bond, bond, bond, intimate relationships are not healthy for them. And the other stuff that you were talking about that that's getting into another area where, you know, uh, it's not

normal and it's not healthy for a kid to be uncommonly familiar with a stranger. Okay. So we had this example today when we were talking with your short-term team. We're visiting you and Chris. You guys have been awesome hosts. We brought our three youngest. Our oldest is playing basketball with his friends. We brought our three youngest and you brought in some young ladies that are going on this trip.

They see my kids there. My kids are four, nine, 11, right? So these are like the ages of kids that you maybe were interacting with on your short-term mission strip, right? When these young ladies walk in, they don't be like, Oh, there's kids here. I'm going to pick these kids up and hug them. And we did it. I was just like, and of course that would be so like inappropriate, right? What are you doing? Like, who are you? Why are you touching my kid? You know? that would be so like inappropriate right what are you doing like who are you why are you touching my kid you know but that's because they go into that and they say and they say oh these are you know this i don't know these kids it appears that this is their dad that's their mom like i'm just gonna say hi what's your name and you know what school do you go to or like those kind of like

questions like get to know you like you would get to know another person but unfortunately when we go into those orphanages we don't stop and think like, these are somebody else's kids. We kind of feel entitled to immediate intimacy with these kids. Yeah. And for whatever reason, that has been the conditioning. But what happens now when that kid has been conditioned to have intimate touch, intimate connection with strangers. So when you say like the kid is now, you know, an adult and they have this, they've not only have that severed attachment, they not only have trauma, which can be physical abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, you know, other types of dysfunction.

Like if you go through the adverse childhood experiences study, those types of situations that take place in the kid's childhood. And now they're out in the world and what are they going to, they're going to go look for stranger love. And what can that look like? It looks like, again, perpetuating the system of dysfunction at the family level, looking at exploitation. So, so they're more likely to get into exploitative, you know, trafficking situations because they've essentially been conditioned, you know, aside from all the trauma and the fact that they're not connected with their family and community of origin. Now they're also more susceptible to, you know, falling into other forms of exploitation. So do you see that happen? Like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's and, and, and sadly, so, you know, last time I was on, I was working with a different organization. Now I'm working with an organization called care portal, which is really focused on domestic creating better ecosystems domestically with care sharing technology, because what we see in foster care is unfortunately a lot of the same stuff, you know, higher rates. So like over 50% of people that are homeless had foster care involvement in their childhood. You know, they're more likely to be trafficked. You know, they're more likely to live in poverty. They're like 75 to 80% of the incarcerated people in our country were involved in the child welfare and foster care system in our country. So unfortunately, anytime that kid has been removed and gone through that adversity

and they haven't been able to land permanency, unfortunately, the adult outcomes, whether it's here in the US or whether it's back in Tanzania where I was, you know, those are just going to be really poor. So that's why it's really important that we actually have, you know, healthy environments for those kids and that there's support there. Talk to me about, I know like abuse in orphanages is unfortunately, it happens and it happens at a higher rate than people realize, right? That's something I never even thought about until I talked to, well, Alicia, Alicia first, her financial friend, and then you and other people I've talked to that like, oh yeah, this is a huge problem in orphanages. Is that among the kids? Is it staff? Is it good people, bad people, all of the above?

I mean, do you have any stats or anything on something like that? So I don't have any stats right off the top, but unfortunately what we know in general when it comes to abuse, including sexual abuse, is that it is always underreported. So even if I had the stats, they would only kind of scratch the surface in many ways because even here, anytime there's abuse, anytime there's sexual assault, anything, it gets underreported. So that's just kind of baseline. In terms of abuse within orphanages, look, you have removed the kids from the most natural baseline of protection, which is having parents. You know, so if you and I are both believers in Christian nonviolence, so I acknowledge that. But if somebody was messing with my daughter or messing with my son, that way, set that aside. We might set that aside, you know, because it's like, well, what am I going to do?

I'm the dad I'm going to protect, you know, and that, but now you've removed that kind of just baseline human protection. And unfortunately, a lot of these places don't have policies and practices in place. So when you don't, when you're not prioritizing child protection, kids will get violated. And that's just what happens. And it can be anybody. It can be staffed a child. So you can definitely see that a lot with like physical abuse, you know, like using very harsh forms of corporal punishment and so forth. You definitely see it peer to peer is the most common. So older kids taking advantage of younger kids and sexual abuse, sexual abuse.

Would you say in most orphanages, there's some of that going on? I mean, or is there just hard to say? So I will just kind of say, so at one point we were working with a larger organization, brought out a colleague from Bethany Christian Services Global, and they were working with us when we were running Kingdom Families in Tanzania. And I remember talking with, so we had my friend Sabilu there, and then there was a social worker, her name was Jill Vanderbent. And I remember her saying something that just kind of resonated. So she had been working with a lot of kids that had been in orphanages. And she has said, I have not provided counsel to a single kid that was in an orphanage that didn't either view and like see

another kid get abused, be victimized by another kid or be the perpetrator. Like literally, and she's counseled so many different kids that have come out of orphanages and she's like, they've all seen it or they've all either suffered from it or participated in it. And it happens in the quote unquote good orphanages as well. And that's the whole thing.

There's really, what we say is there's better orphanages and worse orphanages, but there's no good orphanages. You know what I mean? So it's like some orphanages are going to be worse in terms of child protection. You know, I, I did study there's, um, stuff like, uh, there's a report from disability rights international. They were basically, this is in Eastern Europe, where they were running the orphanage under a basement as a brothel. So sometimes these are just straight up exploitation,

trafficking type of fronts. I did some of my research at Multnomah, where I teach now. I had done some of my research on what we call SECTT, that's sexual exploitation of children in travel and tourism. And you can see a lot of this in places like Southeast Asia, you know, you think Thailand, you know, Cambodia, like those types of places, you'll see a lot of sexual exploitation of children in travel and tourism. I actually focus my work, I focus most of my graduate research on Sub-Saharan Africa. And in my human slavery class, I focus most of my graduate research on sub-Saharan Africa. And in my human slavery class, I focus specifically on East Africa. And what we saw were cases where people would come from,

I followed four case studies, two from the UK, two from the US, where these people would come and they would volunteer or they would set up a nonprofit or whatever, and they would pray on children through that, you know? And sometimes this is like, I mean, I could list names. I don't know if that's going to serve anybody, but you could find it, you know, where people are even there on a Christian mission, you know? I think of Gregory Dow, I think was one of his names. You know, he set up this orphanage in Kenya and he was, you know, abusing the kids, Matthew Lane Durham doing the same thing.

So, it's like, these are things, and I'm not like, like, I only say that because like, you can actually go because these were people that were Christian missionaries that were setting up these things where the child protection just isn't there. You know, you have a guy who, you know, is working for an airline and he's traveling into Uganda, Tanzania, Kenya, and they're exploiting children, you know, they're abusing children. And unfortunately those things where we run up, you know, Kenya, and they're exploiting children, you know, they're abusing children. And unfortunately, those things where we run up, you know, we walk in as the good people, like we're not going to harm any children. And we say, well, we just want to play and yeah, we'll hug and we'll do all this. What is that doing? Again, that's, that is conditioning the kids. That's conditioning the staff. Oh, white people, they're safe. It's okay. But then when

that dude walks in and he says, oh, you know, I'm staying at this hotel. Can I bring the kids over to go do a swim? You know, and the orphanage worker is like, yeah, that's fine because he just donated a ton of money or brought all the kids soccer balls or whatever. And then he takes them to the hotel and he abuses them. that we can't, and it would be easy for you or me to go on a short-term trip and yeah, we interacted with some orphans or kids that were in an orphanage and we didn't do anything. So it's not our fault. Okay. That's true. Like we went into that space. We did not abuse children, but we fed into an environment where there's this kind of trust and this kind of expectation that other people that are predators are going into and

then making the most of that. And look, this is even within that research that I did, there were two people, one from the US and one from the UK that actually had records within their countries of origin of preying on minors. And that didn't stop them from being able to fly into East Africa to then prey on those children. Okay. So, and I only really kind of bring this up because you and I are Americans and we're thinking, what can we do or what should we do when it comes to, you know, and we had it on our podcast where we actually got into this with professionals that are working in this space, you know, the child protection, you know, what are the mechanisms that are in place? You know, what does a short-term piece look like? Because, you know, we have to think through what should we be doing different,

but the reality is we're feeding into a system that is fundamentally failing kids. How widely known is everything you're saying among people who are working in orphan care, is everything you're saying among people who are working in orphan care let's just say overseas maybe in majority world countries um is this pretty widely known or is your voice in the minority because i would say in sending churches or churches in america i mean people don't think twice about supporting orphanages right i mean this is the third podcast i've done that's how my church supports an orphan you know like they celebrate all the you know i'm like right so in america in america at least it seems like i rarely talk to anybody that hasn't even thought about yeah anything other than orphanages but in the field like people actually work in this field are there a lot of

people like you that kind of started to see things and yeah it's going to be a mix and really there's kind of been two Brandons. There was the Brandon that was working at the orphanage where I thought I was, you know, whatever. I thought it was mother Teresa or something, you know, George Mueller, like, and thinking like, I'm going to tell everybody and they're actually supporting me so that then I'll go and support these kids. So it's like, I'm actually feeding into the industry and the economy and all of that. So there's people that are still like that, Brandon, from like 20, you know, 20, 2007 to 2012 or whatever, like that, that, that person is still there and they're still raising

funds and telling the stories and sending the pictures and doing all of that. And there's a lot more of those than there are the people that, you know, when, when my family returned, you know, to the missions field and ran kingdom families for five years, you know, and we were just like, look, the church has to be mobilized. We're going to work with the church. We're going to do advocacy. We're going to do some social services here. We're going to, we're going to do things that are going to strengthen families. You know, those people are out there too. And there is a growing movement. I want to acknowledge that because I've worked with some of the best people that many of them used to, you know, they used to run orphanages and they came

to the realization, like, actually we could be doing this better. And that's a whole thing. Like we, what we don't want to do is be like, shame on you, tsk, tsk, like, like you shouldn't do that because it's like, well, my hands are as guilty as anyone. But the reality is it is discipleship. Yes. Maybe you had a calling to get started in this field, but what does it look like to learn and to grow and to be discipled and learn

new things and then apply them, you know, to our practice when it comes to caring for vulnerable people. So I think that that's kind of a really, a really core thing. There's a growing number of, there's a growing number and, and it's a movement. It's not just about one organization. I mean, I know last time I was on the show, I was working with a different organization and organizations can just change like that. And then they say, we're just going to do something else. But it's not about one single organization. It's about a movement of organizations that say, we're going to prioritize family. We can actually, these kids that are in our care, you know, four out of five of them still

have one, if not both of their parents still alive. What are we going to say? 95% of them, we can find some relative, you know, could we move the, the move our intervention into their home rather than into our children's home? You know, can we get the kid out of a children's home and put them into a parent's home? You know, like, can we do that? And as people kind of turn those lights on, that's even what we do. So, so after I left my previous org, you know, we set up a team that can actually help people walk through those, um, just at canopy international, which is my side grind, but just creating opportunities, um, for people to learn and, and to say, which is doing great work. I have been facilitating a community of practice that stretches from Southeast Asia all the way to Central America.

All of these, you know, organizations like Alicia, who you had on, or like Brent Phillips in Cherish Uganda, who you guys are going to visit, you know, organizations like that, that say we're prioritizing family care. You look at someone like Brent, it's just like, man, they were serving HIV AIDS kids in Uganda. And even them, they're like, oh yeah, no, we could transition. And then what do you see? You look at an organization like Cherish and they transition, they send kids, they help kids safely reunify back with family or enter alternative families if that's what needed, foster care adoption, sometimes that's what's needed and then do they just close up shop hopefully not hopefully what they do is they say well we actually we're really good at caring for hiv aids communities so we're going to open up this clinic or what they're doing now is they have this birthing center right so now

they're going to help kids when maybe mom's hiv positive but if you handle the birth the right way she won't transmit to her child so now we're creating these types of things that are actually going to strengthen families and take care of communities so that the communities are stronger. So I've seen that, and that's the good thing. And it is a movement. It's not one organization. It's a lot of organizations that are coming to this realization saying, how can we help move this forward? How can we help move this forward? Hey friends, I wanted to let you know about an awesome ministry doing incredible work in Africa. It's called Cherish Uganda.

Cherish Uganda's mission is to spiritually transform its community through education, healthcare, and family strengthening programs. Cherish believes that children thrive in the context of families and not institutions. Okay, so Cherish started as an orphanage for HIV positive children several years ago, but then they learned that children often had extended family that could care for them

with the right intervention and training. No matter how hard they tried to give the best care for a child, they learned that an organization can never replace the value God created when he created families. Now, rather than short-term based home care, Cherish continues to focus its care for children and families with HIV through education programs, a health center, and family strengthening programming. All children are now resettled. All children. So all the children that were in the orphanage, they're now settled with a family member or have been reintegrated into the community with extended relatives or foster families. Cherish now empowers the community to care for its own, fostering self-reliance and sustainability. And just

several months ago on World AIDS Day, December 1st, 2023, Cherish opened its birthing center. Now Cherish walks alongside mothers in their prenatal birthing and postpartum process, investing in them spiritually and equipping them with training and resources to be the best moms that they can be. This truly, you guys, this is an amazing ministry doing effective holistic work in Uganda.

So you can join Cherish Uganda in their transformational work by following at Cherish Uganda on Instagram and X or Twitter. And I would highly encourage you, if you check out this ministry and God so leads you, please consider making a donation at cherishuganda.org to support their awesome work that they're doing. The financial piece is tricky. I think we've talked about this. Alicia talked about this, that if you're in the field running an orphanage,

not too hard to raise money. It's familiar. It's what people want to give to. And the more, the better. Hey, we doubled our orphans this year. We laugh. The problem's getting bigger. It's awesome.

But we like numbers it's easier like we need we got 100 next year we're trying to get 200 and we need more money like it's it's that's a lot easier to get money right but to get money for what you're talking about what you're going to get to the second is probably a lot harder right so could you get some people like you know what don't stop messing with the system like this is working for that's true well i mean, there are financial incentives that are in play. Yeah. And that, that does kind of get after kind of some nonprofit questions. You know, you run a nonprofit, I work for a nonprofit, awesome nonprofit care portal. You need money to run those, you know, organizations. Um, so, so that's good. That's true. But if your impact model is actually creating harm, then you have to rethink it, you know, and that's, that's kind of the fundamental thing. So we definitely want people that are running children's homes in the global South to not feel shame, to not feel like, especially like, okay, if you were abusing children and you knew you were exploiting them, you should feel shame. Like, yeah, honestly, like shame on you, like

shame on you. But most people are not like that. Most people go in with awesome intentions and they want to help kids and it's just a learning journey. But again, once you learn better, you do something different. And then we need the donors to do the same. So a lot of the family-based care movement has been supported. Yes, by micro donors for organizations that transition from orphanages to family-based care and they retain their donor base, which is awesome. A lot of the kind of like burgeoning advocacy and so forth. And this is often the like social innovation. If you can know like the bell, like early adopters, you'll get some, you know, Christian foundations that will underwrite a lot

of the kind of like advocacy and kind of network building within the family-based care. So, that's kind of where we've been at, but we have not reached critical mass in terms of organizations that are just getting all this funding. Because again, our friends and colleagues at Faith to Action worked with Barna. I think we probably shared this when Alicia when Alicia and I were on, um, earlier, but they did a study a few years ago that, that said minimum $2.5 billion annually into orphanages from Western, you know, Christians. That's like, that's like, yeah, 2.5 billion annually. So, and that's the, that's the conservative estimate, you know, that's, that's like, that's like bottom line. That's basically world vision USA plus compassion international, you know? So it's just kind of like, okay, this is, this is big time. And that's, again, that's the kind of minimum.

And most of them are like mom and pop nonprofits that you've never heard of. Like the one I used to work for, you know, a long time ago. So there's a lot of money that's going into it. And we do, we need, we need people to kind of rethink, what do you want to give to you? I should absolutely. I know you had Scott Harrison on, and he talked about how, you know, only 4% of charitable donations are go overseas. You know, it was one thing that he mentioned was like, oh, wow, that's incredible. And they have such a fantastic model at Charity Water. You know, if it's only going to be 4%, we definitely need to do some reallocations when it comes to caring for orphans and vulnerable children. So we do need people to rethink and we need donors to actually go to the orphanages that they support and say,

and just ask questions, just lead with questions. Hey, you know, what, what is being done to, to help kids get back with their families? Like, do you guys have any family-based services on top of your residential care? Like, where did the kids come from? Like questions like that, that just kind of seem like, oh, okay. Yeah. That's a normal question, you know, like for them to kind of like actually ask those questions and start the conversation. Cause if they come back and they say, oh yeah, all the kids have families. Then the next question is, well, why aren't you helping them to grow up with their families? Or why aren't you promoting foster care and adoption? You know, alternative families, why aren't you doing some of grow up with their families? Or why aren't you promoting foster care and adoption? You know, alternative families. Why aren't you doing some of those things?

So we do need donors to actually go to orphanages and just ask questions. Don't go in and condemn or, you know, point your finger. But definitely go in and say, hey, I actually want to talk about the impact model. You don't hear about the kids anymore. And what are the results? And that's kind of disingenuous. Is there not a lot of follow-up? No, they might know what happened.

But that story doesn't sell if you tell them, oh, and then the kid got addicted to such and such thing. And now they're kind of living on the streets. Like you're not going to hear that story. You know what I mean? So like when they, when the kids leave and then they aren't doing well, you just don't hear about it anymore because that's not going to sell. Like, hey, we failed this kid, like keep giving money, you know, but it's just like the reality is a lot of kids leave care and they just don't do well and that's a bummer so let's go back to you you know sometime probably 2000 what 13 14 15 or something like when you started to really rethink things and like oh my gosh i think i need to get involved in a better way to care for orphans and their families what

did that look what did that transition look like for you? Yeah. Well, it's kind of funny. So we returned to Tanzania. So we were there for, did the short-term stuff in 08, 09, then did the orphanage from 2010 to 2012. Then we took a year and a half off. I worked at a church in the interim. And then our daughter was born during that time. We were back in San Luis Obispo and we returned to Tanzania in 2014. And we thought we were going to actually do like, we really wanted to do like discipleship with college students. Like we went back and thinking like, we're going to do this other thing. But understanding like orphan care was kind of the long-term thing. Well, we got back and the organization that we were now working under had been doing attempting family care in kind of like a foster care format kind of thing. And we, um, we were offered essentially

like, Hey, this program's kind of been passed around between leaders. Like you guys have a heart for orphan care. Would you take on this foster family? You know, and we were going in and thinking like, Oh, okay, we're going to replicate this. So 2014 was a year where we really kind of got – we renamed that program. We started working with that family, but what we thought was we're just going to go to churches and we're going to recruit foster parents and we're going to basically set up foster care. Now, there's all sorts of different models and all sorts of different ways that you can do family-based care. This was just our model. So other models can be foster care focused or supporting children with disability or doing economic development for widows.

You know, like it can look like all sorts of different things. So this was just our model. There's a diverse range of models that are really helpful. But for us, we just started doing a lot of advocacy, especially being in Moshi where there's a lot of tourism. We started doing, because tourism kind of brings short-termers and short-termers end up some of them being long-termers. And then they set up models of care that they were passed down, which is a lot of orphanages. So, you know, just within Moshi, there's 17 orphanages just in the

urban district, but you can go to other areas of Tanzania and you won't find any because there's no tourism. So, um, so that's a whole discussion. That's a whole discussion. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the thing. Orphanages typically are populated around areas that are high tourism for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Now, if you go to that village where it's like, there's no orphanages, is that because there isn't poverty? Is that because there's no HIV AIDS? Is that because there aren't people living with disability or something else? No, of course those people are there.

That's just, that's just, that's just common in society there. The reality is you get a bunch of people that go in and say, this is the service we're going to provide. And in, when there's not enough infrastructure to kind of, you know, uh, create meaningful social services, they'll just be like, well, what are, what are people providing that are bringing in the money? And you just get person after person and say, oh, we'll start an orphanage. We'll start an orphanage. We'll start an orphanage. And you don't get enough people that go in and say, we want to do rehabilitation for kids that are living on the street, you know, addicted to glue, you know, and we're going to help them get off glue and get back into their

families, you know, or we just, we just really feel like we're supposed to like help kids with disability, like with their education. And like, you know, like if you're not getting those types of services provided that actually strengthen families and you just keep getting people to come in and say, well, we'll do an orphanage. We'll do an orphanage. That's what that's going to be the service that's provided. Even though, I mean, even in a place like Tanzania, you go into the actual policy and it'll say orphanages and children's homes are to be a last resort. And yet in reality, when that's the only service that's provided, especially again in a high tourism area, that is the service that will get used because it's the only one that's offered.

So that's a whole other thing. Now I'm like, so what happens to, yeah. So you have a, I'm mostly, it's not a huge town. It's like top 10 in Tanzania.

A hundred thousand, a hundred thousand more. Was it bigger than that? Yeah. But probably less than 200,000. Yeah. It's not as big as Arusha, right? No, not as big as Arusha, right?

No, not as big as Arusha, but Arusha is also a lot of orphanages there too. Okay. I guess my question is like, so you have one town with a lot of orphanages, high tourism area. Another town, let's just say it's a similar size, no orphanage. There are orphans or at least one parent, you know, single orphans. What happens to the orphans in areas where they're, when an orphanage isn't an option? Yeah. Well, I mean, fundamentally most orphans that are classified orphans are with their families anyways, you know, cause again, the kids that are going into orphanages are not often, not even technically orphans anyways. So they've just gone through single parent household.

Yeah. Yeah. Or child headed households. That's a whole other thing. You could, you, you can have situations. I just had an organization on our show that was coming in and saying, yeah, we work with a lot of youth-led households. And that's still better than being a Northridge. Of course. Yes, totally. Some people, that might be news. That might be news to them. So a 16-year-old teenager raising their four or their, raising their elementary.

Yes. With appropriate support from other community members or charitable organizations that are walking alongside. Yes. That, that is a better environment and that is going to be more conducive to that kid growing up and being, you know, a, a, a faithful citizen and, and, you know, a family person themselves, you know, Are there some some so i know some people are probably wondering like some of the home environments could be really bad you get an alcoholic dad abusive mother and you know absentee you know she maybe is sleeping around a dad died kid has aids not being taken care of like Are there some situations where the family environment is actually worse than an orphanage?

I mean, surely there's got to be a few cases of that, you know, or is that a prominent enough situation to where it should be considered? And if that is the case, what do you do in those situations where the family environment is actually really toxic for the kid? So what do you do in those situations where the family environment is actually really toxic for the kid? Yeah, the reality is when it comes to social services, things are never that dichotomous. So it's never like, well, it shouldn't be at least. Like you could either live detached from community and family in an orphanage or live in an abusive home.

Like that's just, it's like a falseer, it's a false dichotomy. Unfortunately, it happens, but it doesn't need to happen. So then you say, so maybe dad's a drunk and he's abusive and the kid absolutely should not be in that home. And the kid needs to be removed. I've seen situations where, okay, that kid is then put in an orphanage, but then that orphanage says, we actually want to get these kids back to family. They can go and they can talk to that drunkard, you know, father who abused them or whatever. And they're not going to place the kid there. They'll say, do you have other family? And he'll be like, oh yeah, I have a sister. She lives in the next town over and whatever. This is called, this is like the start of what we call family tracing, which is like, which is like a baseline assessment of like trying to figure out where's the best place for this kid. You go to that next place and you'd be,

and you find, oh yeah, this aunt is great, but she's still in school. So she's like, oh yeah, no, I love my nephew. I wish that he could be here with me. I'm not able to take him right now, but you should go talk to my mom. So you can go to the next house. And now you're talking to grandmother and grandmother's like, we didn't even know where he was like, yes, please bring him home. So this is like a process. Are 100 these are actual things 100 100 and you can talk to people that have transitioned from orphanages to family care and they'll be like oh yeah that sounds very commonplace to have that every case you family trace and you can find some you can find somebody an environment that's either a relative or a distant relative or maybe even a friend of a relative at the very least that is healthy. Right. Or, or you, or you say, look, I've

exhausted all of these, but there's a pastor or a teacher or somebody that has a connection to the kid that's willing to be their foster parent, you know? And it's just like, okay, well, let's look there. So the, the, the idea that's like, well, either the kid's going to be abused in the family or detached and probably abused in the orphanage. And and those, you know, it's pick your poison. Well, no, there are other options. We just have to actually do the hard work of saying, well, we're going to figure out what the best option is. There are times where residential care is an appropriate response, but it is a minority. Residential meaning orphanages?

No, orphanages need to be done with. Really? But there are, but there are, I know. No. Yeah. I mean, everything you're saying is like, I mean, either you're wrong and they need to be kept. Right, right, right. So residential models are, can be necessary for sure, even in the United States. So we don't have orphanages really here anymore, but we do have different residential models. And sometimes those are very poorly run and that can be an issue as well. But sometimes say there's a kid and they, you know, fell out of their home because, you know, parents had addiction problems or something, and then they

bounce around foster homes and now they're, you know, 16 years old and they have major behavioral issues and they need, you know, highly therapeutic, you know, residential care in a small group type of setting. Like that's a far cry from like, we need orphanages in Tanzania where we're institutionalizing, you know, babies that are a couple of days old. You know what I mean? Like, so, so it's like that, that whole thing needs to, needs to go away, but there are within a continuum of care, a continuum of services, menu of services. There are very few cases that do actually need some form of some sort of very therapeutic residential care. But again, that's, that's such a minority and we have such an over-reliance on residential

models that are much more institutional um and for kids that really have no business there throughout the global south so once you try like just practically transitioning like that that like i can see the two models and i can envision what an organization that's doing family-based care versus orphanage based care but to make that transition it's got to be incredibly difficult, right? I mean, just, again, even financially and getting everybody on board and all the people and what do you do with the kids that have been in the – so, yeah, okay, let's go there. Let's say you're working – let's just say you run an orphanage.

You kind of wake up, realize this stuff. What do you start doing? Do you start doing family tracing with all the kids that are there? Is that basically the – is that the kind of heartbeat of? Yeah, that can be a starting point for sure. So basically you're going to go through two processes at once. One is you're going to do the social work, like reintegration of cases, type of cases, meaning like children, you know, figuring out getting into those cases and seeing, you know, what's going to be the best path to permanency for this child that doesn't require them to spend the rest of their childhood in an orphanage. So that's kind of one level.

And then the second level is you have an organizational transition because your organization is now going to go through a change management process where hopefully at the end of it, you're not just closing your doors. Sometimes people do, and sometimes that's what's best, but hopefully you can transition to something, you know, like what Brent is doing or like other colleagues of mine that have done, um, where now they are, you know, like what Brent is doing or like other colleagues of mine that have done where now they are, you know, operating something that actually strengthens communities. So you're going to be doing those two processes, you know, essentially concurrently to one degree or another. You've seen this happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This happens. But it has, again, we haven't reached critical mass you know so that's why we need to reach more people and have them kind of think through what's your so let's go to like the american church where again i most churches i talked to are supporting orphanages it's just so i've never even thought about it so far three years ago and now every time i hear it it's just like i don't like i don't get feistered it's just like, I don't like, I don't get feisty. It's just like, oh.

You don't get feisty, Preston? I don't. No. I get feisty. You have more of a right to. For me, it's like, again, I put myself four years ago and I wouldn't even have thought about it. What do you mean? But it would have taken, for me at least, it probably would have taken an hour long conversation where I i would have said oh gosh like i i didn't even know these questions i know these categories existed

how i mean i'm sure you've encountered this probably quite often with american churches and you start trying to help them see maybe a bigger picture let's call it that right what how is it received is to get pushback do you get people's oh yeah yeah and then they just it's a mix it's a mix you know each person responds differently i think we're i think as a as a care reform movement we're still trying to crack that egg is that tough egg to crack it is tough because i can imagine there's probably uh somebody who's been in church for like you know 48 years they started this orphanage ministry 47 years ago maybe they've got a lot of money they have some influence maybe power at the church or

right gosh that person has a strong personality wouldn't order that i don't want to break their heart they they invest they've invested everything into this orphanage ministry church and right like do you get a lot of that like just a little deep relational maybe even financial and emotional emotional that's i think that's a big power connections people are already aren't really pre-programmed or rethink foundational questions i don't want to be overly cynical but you've maybe heard this term american exceptionalism you know that definitely plays here you know where it's like well what okay so what keep going how does that intersect with this well i mean because there, because there's a notion of like, oh yeah, we agree. Kids are best in family. Yes, that's true. But our kids are different. And the way we care for of embracing the reality that these kids are going

to grow up and you live in another country and yeah, you've been donating and supporting and running this thing. But the reality is these kids came from somewhere else. They'll return to somewhere else. And you know, they're not, you're, you're not an exception. I mean, is that deep? Is there, could there be a bit of, yeah, ethnocentrism? I hesitate saying racism because I think that third term can be thrown around, but it's not racism. It is ethnocentric though. Yes. But yeah, it's like, well, those kids are, they, but it's almost kind of like they're the deserving poor. It's kind of more like that sociological thing of like, well, this is our charitable thing for these kids that we really love and want to care for. And yet at the same time, you are settling for something subpar. So like –

It's something you would not – You would not want for your own kids. You would not want this for your own kids. So there is you would not, you would not want for your own kids. Exactly. You would not want this for your own kids. So there is kind of that, like, but then there's, I mean, honestly, one of the things that happens in a lot of these, in a lot of these American run children's homes, unfortunately, and I don't, again, I don't want to say anything that was like, I'm disparaging, like, it's not about that, but there is, there is nonetheless often this dynamic where they look at what's going on in the broader community and they see poverty and they see this and they say, oh, no, it'll be better for the kids to be in this kind of rich Western run orphanage than to be out there in the community. And yeah, we know they have family and yeah, the family comes and visits once a month and shares candy with them.

They live on a high with a dirt floor. And yeah, the family comes and visits once a month and, you know, shares candy with them. They live in a house with a dirt floor. Yeah. And it's just kind of like, and the thing is kids do better in a poor family than they do in a rich orphanage. That's just. That's a fundamental. That's just fundamental. And they want that.

Once people get that. And they want that. Yeah. But unfortunately, sometimes people that are running these systems are not really taking into account that actually the kid would be better even if they were poor. It would be better for them to be poor and in a family than in a rich orphanage where to be honest, they'll likely be poor when they grow up anyways, because they're not going to have the social skills or the social capital, especially in the global South, you know, where you really actually need a community to not only for your mental and social wellbeing, but also for your economic wellbeing. Like you

actually need that community, you know, when you grow up. So. And do they have a stigma of being raised in an orphanage in a lot of cultures? There can be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Versus being in a poor home in a wealthier orphanage, you're still in the stigma. Right. Right. Yeah. Cause poverty again, it's not like, like nobody wants to be poor and, you know, we can, we can talk through poverty and what that feels like, but, um, it's a lot more common, you know, versus the kids that are in orphanages. We, we would work with an organization that's doing alternative family care in Ethiopia and, um, uh, Salamta family project. And, you know, we've heard this where these kids were unfortunately had already gone into an orphanage. They tried to see if they could reunify. They tried to see if they

were candidates for adoption. And when those things have been exhausted, they put them into an alternative family. So meaning like a mom with a small group of children in the community. And those kids are treated a lot more like just any other kid, you know, as opposed to being the orphanage kid, you know what I mean? So, so I just distinctly remember like, like one of the kids that grew up in one of these alternative family households, hearing him say with his own mouth, like I saw how kids in the orphanages were treated and we were just treated like we were just from the community because they are, you know? So, yeah, there can be a stigma as well.

It's not all the time, but it can happen for sure. Do you have some positive cases of churches talking to them and they kind of see the issues and everything and then make a concerted effort to change? To transform? Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Those churches are out there as well. And what does that look like?

Well, yeah. What are other. Yep. Those churches are out there as well. And what does that look like? Are there organizations? Well, yeah. What are other organizations that can help churches do that? I would definitely encourage people. So again, I don't work for Faith to Action, but I'm on their advisory network and they're great. Faith to Action Initiative. I would reach out to our friends there. They're doing a lot of work within that space.

I've done a lot of work in that space. People can reach out to me as well. What's your organization? lot of work within that space. I've done a lot of work in that space. People can reach out to, to, to me as well, but so, well, my, my, my main job, I have to give a shout out is care portal, which that's my, that's my nine to five. Um, I did set up a coaching collaborative as well called canopy international. So yeah, so people can find us there, but I mean, but you'll just be getting connected with people that are even better at this than I am. Because we've had people that have come through and just said, yeah, we were doing the orphanage thing, but we also saw the light. Most people listening are not pastors or leaders of churches. And maybe some of them are like, gosh, my church supports an orphanage.

I would love to maybe have a conversation with some of the leaders about this, uh, to maybe at least raise the question, are there better ways? I heard this podcast, like what, what, what have you seen to be most effective for people that maybe don't have, that aren't on leadership of their church to go to their leaders and at least have this conversation? Well, um, I think you can get equipped. So there are resources. So starting with some of those people that I just mentioned and some of those, uh, groups, um, you can get equipped. So there are resources. So starting with some of those people that I just mentioned and some of those groups, you can get coached up and support to have those conversations because, you know, there are professionals that work in this space that work in care reform that are willing to have that conversation to support you so that you know how to have that,

you know, conversation because it does take a mindset shift and we do need change agents. And sometimes that change agent is not a primary decision maker, but they can nonetheless influence that decision maker, you know? So I think that that is, so yeah, first get support and then just have the conversation. And if you're a donor, you do have some power, you know? And unfortunately what we'll sometimes see is people will say like, well, don't pull your funds. Yeah. Don't initially pull your funds until you've had the conversation. But if you've had that conversation and they just say, no, we're really committed to having kids in the orphanage, then you can give them notice.

And you're just like, okay, I, you know, I respect that. It's not my decision to make, but I want to reinvest my money that is going to actually support. And sometimes people are hesitant to say that, but the reality is because it'd be like, well, aren't you putting the kids more at risk if you pull your funds? Um, and the reality is because it'd be like, well, aren't you putting the kids more at risk if you pull your funds? And the reality is if those people are not willing to actually think through what it looks like to better protect and help kids get into family, then they may not have their best interests. If you've had a good faith conversation with them about considering transition and like donors fall off at times, like, like I don't, I haven't donated to the same organization for the last 15 years.

That's not how I do my charitable giving. People will do it different ways. So it's also okay for you to reprioritize yourself as a donor and say, I had the conversation because I value these people and I value this organization and I want the best for those kids. But I'm also going to kind of rethink how I want to express my faith through my charitable giving. And I want to do something that's going to strengthen kids to live in families. Yeah. What would be the, like,

have you had like a, you say, you say you've all these stats and facts, you've had the experience, you've sure you bring it all. What's the, the best pushback you've got? Like what's the right. Thanks, but no thanks. Is is it is it just an emotional wall that's like or financial or financial because there is a lot of money that's wrapped up in it and sometimes it's their livelihood whether that's you know somebody that is living in the country so do they literally say like well i i they can i'm wrapped up in this financially i mean they may not say it but that's a real thing you know it's like i I have kids to feed, you know, it's just like, if I were to lose my job, that would be really hard, you know? And if they were thinking along those lines, now the reality is we don't want anybody

to lose their job. We would just want to repurpose that workforce really. But if they kind of feel like I have a financial stake in this, that could be another barrier, you know, to overcome. Sometimes it can be just like, yeah, we just have a different philosophy and we really think that this orphanage is the right thing. Is there any counter argument or just, yeah, agree to disagree? Sorry, without like saying your stats are wrong, your experience is off. I know a bunch of amazing orphanages. I've, I've spoken with people and I've spoken with people. I have one family in particular, you know, in my head that they were in another area of Tanzania and they were coming into, coming into Moshi and they had tried to run an orphanage in this other area with a different local pastor. And they were trying to do that. And they said,

yeah, it really kind of fell apart. We found out he was stealing money. And I said, oh my gosh, that's terrible. Like what happened to the kids? And they're like, we don't know what happened to the kids. I was like, wow, this, you know, everything you're saying like sounds really terrible. And yet now they're saying, but we're going to do it now and we're going to do it different. And it's just like, you literally had the whole thing fall apart. You don't even know where the kids are. And now you're going to work with, and the crazy thing is like, they started to work with a pastor that I had done work with and who had, I had been at his church running a conference and he was like, yes, we need kids and families. Yes. The spirit of adoption, Romans 8,

you know, yes. You know, widows and orphans, Isaiah 68 or Psalm 68, Isaiah 1, like, yes, like this is what we need. And then these other Americans come in with money and they said, well, we're going to give you a job. We're going to do, and he just turns on a dime, you know, kind of thing. And it's just, which is a bummer because he's actually a friend, you know, and a pastor that we had worked with. So, so sometimes you'll get people like that where they're just like, we actually did this and it totally fell apart and it wasn't good. And we're telling you it wasn't good, but now we're going to try again. I could see that. I could see someone saying it wasn't the intrinsic nature of the orphanage. It was this specific situation. But then this is a little scapegoating. If you just say, well, it was a bad dude that we were

working with. Well, it was just like, well, how do you know that it's going to work now? Like you don't, but, but you would probably say, yeah, it's best for kids that grow up in families, but then you're going to say, but we're going to do this different thing anyways. It's just, so it does. So you'll get people that, of course, obviously the majority of the orphan care, get people that, of course, obviously the majority of the orphan care, global orphan care space is invested into orphanages. So of course you have a lot of people that have their rationale for why they do that. And it could be emotional or financial, or it could be they, that's just all that they know. You know, maybe they haven't learned, maybe they're going to listen to theology in the raw and be like, Oh, maybe I could try something. And hopefully that's the case. Um,

in the raw and be like, oh, maybe I could try something. And hopefully that's the case. Um, but, uh, you know, at the same time, uh, maybe they just are really committed to that practice. So, but again, the proof is in the pudding. If the kids aren't turning out well, then it's a problem. Brandon, thanks so much for, uh, being on Theology Raw again, live in my basement. Um, so you mentioned, yeah, Faith to action, care portal, canopy international, any other places you can point people to resources, books. Is there a book that would go to book? There's somebody who's like, all right, I want to really roll my orphan care, orphan care books. Unfortunately I'm not sold very well. So the best one was like 10 years ago. I think I mentioned it previously. That's orphan justice, but yeah, it's a little,

it's a little outdated, honestly, if I, um, so I do just kind of want to say with care portal, care portal is a domestic program and it is awesome. It's amazing. We're working in over 30 different States within the nation, um, connecting churches with kids, uh, that are in crisis and families in crisis. So that's like one of the things, like, even when we talk about like, what should we be doing globally? Well, what are you doing domestically? And Care Portal is like one of those things where it's like, you could actually impact kids directly and you don't have to be a foster or adoptive parent to be a part. So yeah, it's not about like, I did that thing. Like when I came back from Tanzania, I, my initially I was working like for a local foster family agency, like recruiting foster and adoptive parents. And that's a whole other conversation. But, um, the reality is most people are not called to be foster and adoptive parents. I'm an adoptive dad. And it's like, you know, and my son would say the same thing. It's one of the hardest things. It's a good thing. It's a beautiful thing. It's a gospel thing, but it's also really hard. But we get a lot of people that say, I don't know how to,

you know, support and care, you know care for vulnerable kids in my own neighborhood. And even getting to the global thing, sometimes we're sending people out to go do orphan care overseas, and it's just like you don't even have any fruit on the tree in your own backyard. You know what I mean? So it's like Care Portal is one of those things where it's like anybody can contribute, anybody can support vulnerable children. It's a really cool care-sh sharing technology that really kind of drives impact. So I would just kind of say, actually, before you even go overseas, find out a way to actually help foster kids. We've got over 400,000 kids in the foster care system here. And it's like, man, so what I'm doing right now, most of my time, my full-time job and the canopy international and

think global do justice. The podcast that I do, all of that's, my full-time job and the canopy international and think global, do justice. The podcast that I do, all of that's just side. That's just like a passion project, basically, but care portals, what I'm driving in Seattle. So I do encourage people because we are in like over 30 States to check out care portal. Um, but if you are running an orphanage, what we've been talking about, you know, for the course of this conversation, reach out to my friends at faith to action. You can reach out to, uh, out to the coaching co-op that I set up at Canopy International. There are resources out there. You don't have to do it alone. And these kids deserve, these kids deserve better. And it's a more biblical model. I mean, widows and orphans

together, the spirit of adoption, you would not read. I never never noticed that you i mean it's one of those famous verses i really care for orphans and widows in their distress yeah and we just focus on the orphans apart from the way yeah we just like we just like take them out of the equation when the reality is they lost the same person you know they lost the the patriarch of the family the provider the protector they lost that that made them widow and fatherless, you know? Not parentless. Not parentless. Yeah. Yeah. That's one group. That's why they're always listed together. So it really is how can we care for vulnerable families? So even again, locally, single mom, you know, maybe she's getting her kids back. You know, we talk about reunification.

That's a huge thing. We should be promoting reunification. Most kids in foster care in the United States are going to get reunified. That's their most likely spot that they're going to go if they're going to reach permanency is to actually get reunified. So that means that that mom or maybe even that dad has overcome a lot of stuff, but they may need support. And that's why, you know, Care Portal and a lot of other organizations, highly collaborative, you know, are actually bringing connections so that those families can also get strengthened.

We need to see families strengthened. We need to see families intact. But it requires, you know, a community. You know, you can have, you know, me and you are both employed. We have our kids. And, you know, we're doing what we can. But even us, we rely on other people. You know, that's just kind of the intrinsic nature of being a family within a broader community.

So whether that's domestically or overseas, that's what we need. So, but yeah, if you are running an orphanage, reach out. There are resources out there for you. Yeah, that's awesome, man. Well, thanks for being on The Elgin Road again, man. Really appreciate it. Yeah, appreciate it. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.