Theology in the Raw - S2 Ep1130: A Christian Perspective on Dating: Kait and J.J. Tomlin

Episode Date: November 20, 2023

Kait and J.J. are passionate about helping Christians navigate the dating world. Kait is a best-selling author, speaker, popular relationship coach, and the founder of Heart of Dating. She helps thousands of men and women on their journeys through the conversations on the Heart of Dating Podcast, which launched in 2018. Through her ministry, Kait’s mission is to empower both men and women to have the courage to own their story, walk in victory, thrive with purpose, and discover clarity and vision in their life and relationships. J.J. and Kait got married in 2022, and now J.J. helps coach men through the Heart of Dating ministry. I talk to Kait and J.J. about all things related to dating: what are the most common questions people who are dating ask? How far is too far? Where are all the good Christian guys? What are some problems that purity culture created for dating? Does anything good happen after 10pm? What's the difference between wise and legalistic dating practices? Should people date to have fun, or only for marriage? And should teenagers date?  Find out more about their ministry at: https://www.heartofdating.com  Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hey friends, I wanted to let you know that for the next week, we have an amazing opportunity for you to win free tickets to the 2024 Exiles in Babylon conference here in Boise. All you have to do is post about the conference on Instagram, Facebook, or the platform formerly known as Twitter, and you'll be automatically entered for a chance to win a pair of in-person tickets, two virtual passes, or some Theology of Neuron merch. Just make sure you tag your post with hashtag Exiles24. Note the plural, hashtag Exiles24, and set your account to public so that we can actually see it. Everything else is up to you. You can repost stuff from our account. You can share stories, pics, or artwork of your own. Anything to help get the word out. We'll be announcing winners on November 20th. So get your post up by November 19th at the latest. Again, remember to tag it, hashtag Exiles24. We're excited to see what you share. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guests today are Kate and JJ Tomlin. So several

years ago, Kate started an awesome ministry that had to do with helping Christians navigate the complex question of dating. And so she started a ministry called The Heart of Dating. It's a podcast, website, tons of resources. And then Kate ended up getting married to JJ. So now JJ is part of the ministry and they both are incredibly honest and down to earth. And I just love how they banter around the topic of dating. So that's what we're going to do in this podcast episode. We're going to banter around about this whole touchy, weird, strange topic of dating. And I could find few people better to discuss this with than Kate and JJ Tomlin. They also have a conference coming up in Nashville. If you go to heartofdating.com,

there is a conference in Nashville, December 29th through December 30th. You can attend live in person or you can attend online. So again, I would encourage you to check that out, live in person or you can attend online. So again, I would encourage you to check that out, heartofdating.com forward slash H-O-D-C, or you can just go to heartofdating.com and I'm sure you can figure out how to find the conference if you're interested in attending this conference in Nashville. So please welcome to the show, Kate and JJ Tomlin. Hey, Kate and JJ Tomlin, good to see you guys. Thanks for coming on Theology in a Row. This is so exciting. I honestly was so honored when you asked, Preston, because I was saying this earlier, I've been seeing you everywhere. And obviously, you and I connected years ago, but I'm like, babe, we get to be on Preston's podcast. This is so cool. Are you pumped?

No, we're super excited. And I think it's been so fun to watch you blow up over the past year, year and a half. For me, it's more like, obviously, you're awesome, Preston, but it just signals that we have a bunch of people who are super curious and want to actually have really great, rich, in-depth conversation about some difficult topics. So that's what's exciting for us about being here. It's so funny. You guys keep saying I blew up like a year and a half ago. I don't look around. I write books from my basement. I record podcasts. And every now and then I go speak places. So I don't even know what that means. Which is, I don't know.

It could be good or bad. I mean, I don't. But I don't pay attention to the outside world too closely. Hey, any press is good press. I get it. Oh, my gosh. So, Kate, you started Heart of Dating. How many years ago was that?

And why did you start that ministry? Yeah. So it's coming up on six years now, which is wild. And I started it single. Obviously now I am married, but I like to tell all the people listening that might be single, I know singleness a lot better than I know marriage, so far at least, because I've only been married for a little over a year. And I was single before that for about 18 years and got married in my thirties. And so I started Heart of Dating six years ago because I was a

single person, just like many single people in the church wondering, how do you do this thing called Christian dating well with integrity and not make it weird? And what are the answers to all these really hard questions that we don't get in that one sermon a year that we hear at church? It's like, okay, great. But what about online dating? Okay, great. But what about ghosting? Okay, great. But like, I'm in a friendationship. How do I navigate that? Or, okay, great. But other than all we hear about physical boundaries is like, don't touch them't touch them and, or you'll get a STD, you know, and you're like, ah, okay. But like, what, what other, like, is there anything else I can learn from that? And so I was just sitting there after a long journey of dating

very poorly and having to really learn and heal. And I was after this healing journey saying, heal. And I was after this healing journey saying, I really want to have better resources for Christian singles. And personally, Preston, I did not want to be the person that stepped out and talked about this. I just was thinking, oh, somebody needs to do that because there needs to be more resources for Christian singles. And of course, the Lord just really put it on my heart like, Kate, that's going to be you. And at first, I did not. I pressed against it. I said, Lord, no, that's not going to be me. Look at my story.

I don't want to put that out there. I clearly am not married, so I don't know how to do this all the right way yet. But it was so clear through time that the Lord really wanted me to step into this. And so I did. it was so clear through time that the Lord really wanted me to step into this. And so I did. And yes, I was like that poster single girl that's talking about dating and still on dating apps, which is super awkward, by the way, because guys would be like, so what do you do? And I'm like, I run a podcast. Oh, what's your podcast about? Dating. Okay. And then they're like, oh, are you like the Taylor Swift of dating? You're going

to go on a date with me and then write a song about, or do a podcast episode about me. I'm like, no, no, no, don't think about that. But yeah, so I did that for a few years. And then about four years into the journey, this guy, JJ shows up to the scene and he was definitely Mr. Unexpected, And he was definitely Mr. Unexpected, younger than me, lived in a different state than me, had blue hair. And I, yeah. Yeah. Blue hair. It was sick. And a big old black earring and just like really interesting style and just not what I would have pictured myself with initially. And so a big thing we also talk about and teach is dating the unexpected. So he did ask me out virtually during COVID and we started dating long distance for a few months. And yeah, you can share a little more,

babe, on how you got involved with Heart of Dating. Did I make you get involved with Heart of Dating? She sat me down and said, this is not going to work unless you can kind of complete the picture, take me to the altar and we work together. No, that was a cool story just because I think in a lot of ways that God has operated in my life, I read Proverbs and I say, a man plans his way, but God establishes his steps. So when it came for me, always having a desire to work in vocational ministry, I never knew what that would have looked like. And it was really awesome in the sense of it kind of fell into my lap. And for me, Holy Spirit really gave me that peace and desire that this is a ministry that I want to participate in, support, and be involved with.

And if you would have told me even two years ago, I would be helping co-lead a dating podcast and ministry with my wife, I probably wouldn't have believed you. But that's just how God works sometimes. So the topic of dating wasn't like in your wheelhouse coming into the relationship? Personally for me, no. But it's very much. Right. But I love, but what I did love and what I did have a godly passion for and vocation for was serving and encouraging men specifically.

So that plugged in with heart of dating essentially is, hey, Kate, you take the girls, I'll take the guys. And then we'll kind of cross preach to a degree. But I love specifically targeting and speaking to the men. And we have such a big heart for men, especially in the times now we feel like men are criticized into changing. They're shamed into changing. And we're just like the complete opposite where we really want to see and validate men. And we want to call you up, not call you out. We want to encourage you into growing. We want to love you into growing. That's how we feel like we can change dating. We can change relationships and we can change marriage. Yeah. So here you are. And you're

so good at encouraging men and, and the women, honestly, too. It's amazing. So here we are. Here's my main question is, is what are the, I guess, let's just start kind of big picture. What are the top like three questions you guys have gotten over the years? And again, I understand Kate's been at this longer, so probably more years to consider here. But yeah, what are the top three questions you get? I mean, you fielded how many hundreds or thousands of questions from people, extensive conversations. I mean, so you've got a good pulse on the Christian dating landscape. What are the top three questions you've gotten over the years? Wow. Well, we get a lot. What would we say are the top ones? I'm thinking of that recent Q&A

we did. Yeah. Well, they kind of differ by gender. Yeah, they definitely do. Okay. I'd say from a female perspective, the number one and the easiest one. Where are all the Christian men? That's definitely a big one that I get from women. Where are all the Christian men? Yeah. Yes.

They're like, where are they? And another one in tandem with that is, can I show a guy interest? There's a lot that needs to be said around that topic, which I love talking about. And those are just more like practical things that we do talk about. And I would say another kind of deeper question pressing that we do get asked is like, why hasn't it happened for me? And is marriage really in the cards for me? And there's a lot of offshoots of that question that kind of mean the same thing that we get of like, is this actually going to happen for me? And what do I do in this time of waiting? And if it is a desire of my heart, which then goes into theology of singleness and are we truly promised a spouse and all of those things.

I do think to JJ's point, there's also some questions from guys that maybe are a bit different than the women. Do you see any others? That there one's probably true. I'd say, I mean, if we're being honest, like number one, I might say is how far is too far as far as physical boundaries. Like that's kind of where guys go, which is I love that they have a desire to want to have that question answered. I'd say another one is maybe I'm not like the most handsome guy. Like how can I ask her out or show interest, especially if I'm getting rejected a lot? Yeah, rejection is a big one.

Right. And then what would you say the last one might be? Well, I think that same question is for guys too. Another one that comes up a lot, Preston, now we're giving you six questions, but for guys and a topic that is really hot right now that we've been chatting through a lot is what if I'm not initially physically attracted or what do we do with this physical attraction piece? And so we do love speaking to that subject. And I think that comes up a lot for the guys. Yeah. And then probably to tie the knot would probably be what is leadership and headship actually look like in dating relationship and marriage. And we love that one, which obviously goes back to theology as well. These are all really good. Can we, can good. I would love to hear your answer to at least some of these. So,

what do you say were all the Christian men? How do you respond to that? You know, I love this question because I always say to ladies, sure, we can assess the fact that statistically right now in the church, there are more women than men in many church communities, and that is a statistical figure. And okay, sure, we can acknowledge that. But the more we focus on the lack, the more we see the lack, and the more we miss potentially awesome people that are right in front of us. And so I always challenge the ladies, hey, they are there.

You're probably eliminating them for superficial reasons. Like that friend of yours in the small group that maybe is five foot six and he's not your quote unquote type because he's not six foot tall, but he is consistent and he has great godly character. He's just not what you pictured for yourself. That's a great godly man, but you're overlooking him because you're like, but Lord, no, send me a six foot tall guy, you know? And so I very much encourage the women like, don't, first of all, don't look at the lack.

And second of all, you have to kind of rethink how, why you're saying no to certain guys that you, that potentially are awesome men. And that comes back to challenging your type and being more open to what we like to say is date the unexpected. And I also on that, so then that's one note, but then I also tell people like change it up. If you're only going to the same places all the time and seeing the same people, you're never going to meet anybody new. So you have to change up your routine. And a lot of ladies are sitting there thinking, well, God's just going to bring me the guy. And I'm like, well, he's not. He's not going to just

magically have your Prince Charming appear on your doorstep. And if you're not seeing him in the community that you're in, then you have to be challenged to go hang out in other communities, go to other places, potentially try online dating. If you can do it with a positive, healthy mindset, you're going to have to change the way you're meeting people because there are billions of people on this planet and you can meet people if you really try to put yourself out there in a new way. JJ, I want to come to you with one of the guy questions, but you mentioned online dating. I am curious because I'm a Gen Xer, I'm 47. That wasn't a thing back in my day. And people have told me that that's all people do to meet. Online dating, eHarmony, whatever,

that's just kind of how people meet these days um other people aren't that that extensive but is is that kind of dominated that this is such i feel like a boomer now i mean it's it's online dating e-harmony those kind of things is that dominating the kind of dating sphere like well pretty much almost after covid the most recent statistics because covid accelerated it even more right because you couldn't go out and meet in person, even if you wanted to. It just stifled it. So after COVID, the most recent statistics is all couples now, about 40% of them meet from online dating.

At least, yeah. About 40%. And that's probably a little bit higher if I had to guess today. So it's almost half of your couples, all couples now meet from online dating apps, which is crazy. And that's ones that met. That's not even counting the ones that are on dating apps that haven't met their spouse or whatever. Right. 100%.

And we love to teach with online dating that it is all about mindset because you're going to go on and there's going to be people on there that don't have good intentions that are not for you. And if you already, one of the things we teach in a program that we do called school of dating is like about 80% of online dating matches are not going to lead anywhere. So if you go in there already knowing 80% is not going to work out, I'm not going to let that 80% discourage me. I'm just looking for the 20%. You'll have a lot better success on online dating because you won't feel you're not as attached to the results. You already know at least eight out of 10 aren't going to go anywhere. Is it a huge problem with online? Sorry, I'll promise you I'll move on. But is it a problem that you have the kind of Instagram problem that like what you're seeing online as you're scrolling through?

First of all, it just feels like you're shopping for cereal almost like you're just not her nose a little too big. No, no. Oh, he likes the Dodgers. I like the giant, you know, like, is it my right to feel that that feels a little icky or is that just the world we live in? is it my right to feel that that feels a little icky or is that just the world we live in and then secondly what do you do with like people that every picture is going to make themselves like better than they probably actually are with all the thousand percent i mean i don't know yeah catfishing is totally real like that happens i would say you know the two things to answer it would be number one like the easiest way to think about dating apps is they're just venues to meet people.

And one great way that we kind of describe it is think of buffets and having a diet. What we love to say is like Tinder is essentially like those great Chinese buffets that are in every local town, you know, that have been there for 20 or 30 years. If you want to be healthy and you want to eat well, you could go there and you could find some options, but it's going to be hard and it's going to be rare. Okay. But, and that's just a venue. Now, if I want to eat healthy, I can go on to maybe like hinge. Uh, that might be like all you can eat sushi. Like it is healthy to a degree, but if you go ham, like that is obviously not going to be a great place to go. And then obviously if you go to like a salad shop or sweet green,

like you are really refining your choices and options to like a healthy, and that would be like a Christian dating app. So, you know, dating apps are not good or bad. They're just venues to meet people, but obviously each venue has a different and distinct purpose. Yeah. And it also comes down to your intention. So to that point that you're saying, you have to know yourself and check in with people around you. Is this a good thing for me to do? Because if you already have a lack of self-confidence and you're going on the app because having guys swipe right on you is going to make you feel good or you just want like lots of options or you're you have a history of being a serial dater this probably isn't going to be a win for you if you also have made so like it's all about intention and that's why we do often challenge

the date the unexpected thought process because we see people, yes, eliminating people way too often on dating apps and in general for very superficial reasons, ethnicity, height, they didn't like a photo or two, what they weighed, different things where it can become very consumeristic. So that's why we really have to check in. And I always challenge the people that we teach, think in and rethink your no. Why are you internally saying no to this person? Like, why are they not your type? Why do you swipe left? And actually putting intention behind thinking about that, because otherwise it can turn into just, we're scrolling, we're swiping, we're right, left swiping. And it becomes very, oh, I don't like their hair. Oh, they have a photo. I didn't

like, Oh, they're, they're under my height preference. Okay. Nope. Would never date that, you know? And then it becomes very superficial. Well, we can leave this behind. Yeah. I have so many questions about that, but Oh man, I, I guess I'm looking back. I mean, well, yeah, let's move on. Uh, JJ, JJ. Okay. The boundary, how far is too far? You said that's one of the top questions you get from guys. How do you respond to that one? Well, first I would say I love that they want to learn about boundaries and there is somewhat of a desire there to do them well. The first thing we always say back though is it really is the wrong question to ask. For me, it kind of just reveals like

what the priority is for you. The question is really how close can I get to sin? How close can I get to the line without it being sin? And if I ask you and we just reframe the question to this, how can I glorify God in the way that I set and uphold physical boundaries? Well, that's going to change everything, right? Like, and if your heart and the priority of your heart was with that framework and that question, I really think that you could determine your own physical boundaries on your own, you know, like without even having to ask anyone. your own physical boundaries on your own, you know, like without even having to ask anyone.

So I would just say, I probably would ask that guy to reconsider, like, where is his heart and soul? What is the most important thing for him? Is it really to honor God? Is it really to honor her? And then we can go to the Bible and talk about, you know, what exactly it means to have physical intimacy, which we really argue is actually an expression of emotional need and emotional intimacy and emotional desire and spiritual desire and intimacy, which if we're not getting that from Christ in a relationship, legitimately, we will go to the next best option, which is, you know, physical intimacy and sex or pornography and masturbation. That's good. So, so you would say there's not like a black and white kind of line. The main, yeah, the main thing somebody needs to do is be pursuing Jesus first and foremost, and then kind of work that out between him and God.

Yeah, I would say, you know, but I mean, like, but to the to the degree where it's just not an arbitrary line set, I would just start, ask that question, is this going to advance my relationship with God? If I'm making out, if I'm like, we're underneath the covers and grinding and straddling, is this going to advance our relationship with God? Is this honoring God? Is this honoring her? Is this honoring her? Is this honoring my, like, it's very, very easy to run, you know, each physical boundary through that. And, you know, I just think when it comes to sex, you know, one thing that we definitely say is like the on-ramp, you know, and the foreplay, like if you have a married couple and an engaged couple who both engage in that same foreplay and it's everything but sex the married couple versus the engaged couple the engaged couple the next day

wakes up and they say man we messed up uh whoops yeah we shouldn't have done that like we're gonna we're gonna stop we're gonna fix this like we're gonna do then the married couple wakes up the next day and they say man that was great sex from beginning to end. And so we just say that that on-ramp, that's designed and reserved for the sex, right? The total act. But I also think within this, like where people have to challenge themselves theologically and where we try to steer away from black and white answers in this topic is, what is your sexual ethic and why is that your sexual ethic? Because a lot of people have just been told, hey, here's your boundaries

and no sex before marriage. And there's no why behind it. There's no understanding of what God really says. There's no wrestling that out personally with the Lord. And therefore, it's not very deeply connected to their heart because it's just been like a set of rules or something that was taught to them. And so, or you have a new Christian that their whole life, they maybe lived things, lived a different way when it comes to sexual boundaries. And now people, they're like entering into a Christian relationship and being like, well, what are my boundaries? What does the Lord say about boundaries or sex? And so I do think you have to wrestle out personally with

the Lord. What is your sexual ethic? Why did it become that? And is there some sort of deconstructing in a sense that you have to do around that? And how can you now get to a healthy sexual ethic that you have wrestled with the Lord personally and that you stand for? Because that is the only way that JJ and I see and what worked for us was I had to work through a lot of my purity culture shame narratives. And I had to come to what is A, my tendencies and my history and my past knowing myself, and B, what is the sexual ethic that I want to abide to? And I had to have personal conversations with the Lord and read my Bible and just have all of that be very personal so that it was deeply connected.

So in that moment where I maybe felt tempted, it's not a list of black and white rules. It's like a deep passion and conviction in my heart. And that's going to help me to adhere to the boundaries that I'm desiring to set. Right. Because there's nothing that we could say right now. Like for the person who's listening, who's single, there's not a tip. There's nothing I'm going to say that is going to help you at 10, 11 o'clock at night when you are, you know, tempted. Right. There you go.

When you're horny. There's nothing that we can say right now that's going to stand unless you have a deep personal conviction. So until you sort that out, you shouldn't even be listening for advice or, you know, trying to like take a tip or two. Like, it's not behavior modification. This is your deep conviction that has to stand. Like, it's got to be as strong as iron. It doesn't bend. It doesn't break. This is something that you've decided on the front end. And then you go in to relationships and date. That's really helpful. And I think it's, yeah, the kind of black and white rules, especially where scripture isn't black and white. I think there, you know,

some things are black and white, obviously, you know, sexual intercourse, I think is reserved for marriage, but even like, what's the difference between like intercourse and then like a sex act, you know, even in the idea of a sex act, like what does that mean? What's defined as a sex act? Somebody could be making a case of like making out as a sex act. I was told, you know even in the idea of a sex act like what does that mean what's defined as a sex act somebody could be making a case like making out as a sex act i was told you know whatever you wouldn't do with your sister is a sex act you know i mean it is such i know or like you know people like oh we didn't you know they're gene jamming every night in the back of the car but you know that well we're not exactly never have but it's like, well, I, I, it is a great, but like, I feel like navigating the gray can only happen when you're prioritizing

your relationship with Jesus and having a clear sexual ethic that you're striving for. Is that, I mean, that's what you guys are getting. Yeah. And I think like, I, to be honest, I think we all have a spiritual intuition when it comes to sex on whether or not this is a sexual act. I really think that the Holy Spirit, something something more than yes. Like, why do you feel guilty after just simply making out like nothing else even happened? Why do you, why do you still feel guilty about it? Right. And I, but more importantly, if they were someone who wanted to go into the gray, um, I think, you know, I was just reading an Ephesians 5 this morning and, you know, which would be an amazing episode to cover. But just the joining of one, I think an easy way is spiritually speaking, anytime you share an orgasm, regardless of how it happens between you and another person or object, that is that spiritual forming.

spiritual forming, that is like that. I go to the picture of a blacksmith, like the welding, the melting, and then the forming and conjoining. And anytime you share that physical expression of really orgasming, I think that is the spiritual bonding, melding, uniting that is just so precious and so incredibly powerful. And I think that's why the Bible is so clear about fleeing and running from sexual immoralities because you're dealing with a Ferrari. You are dealing with a space rocket of an engine and forming a power that should not be lightly played with. I want to, on that note, okay, let's just open up the, the, the door to purity culture, you know, cause I think both of us, you know, we deal with a lot of people that have had some

really negative effects from that. Tons of, especially women, I think percentage wise, it's higher with women typically that were were raised in an environment so much shame and then future issues like 10, 20 years down the road and marriage. And they're still just, yeah, just messages that were, were not helpful. Um, at the same time, I've seen people to use the cliche, you know, swing the pendulum so far where it's like, even, even mentioning like, yeah, sex drive can be really powerful. And you got, that's, you know, anything that even has a, the, the residue of sounding like something they heard in periodicals are just off the date, you know, to get rid of all that. It's like, I've seen the pendulum swing to where it's like, well, the Bible still is very passionate about avoiding sexual immorality of all kinds. It doesn't mince words

with that. So what have you learned over the years? What are some of the unhelpful, damaging messages from purity culture? And maybe what are some ways in which we can still promote and foster, I use the phrase sexual integrity, without throwing the baby out the bathwater, if that makes sense. integrity without throwing the baby out the bathwater, if that makes sense. Oh, we're so jointly passionate about this actually, because for example, my story in high school, I was very indoctrinated into purity culture, the Joshua Harris, I kissed dating goodbye, had a boyfriend when I was 16. Then my youth group people found out and they were like, oh, you can't have a boyfriend unless you ask for permission. And I was like, oh, I didn't know that.

And my parents said it was fine. Like, I didn't know how to ask you guys. And so they brought us into their office and they were like, if you're going to date at this age, you have to date for marriage. So here are your rules. And they literally gave us a set of rules. Like, you know, you can only sit like sit only one foot apart at all times. Never use a blanket, no holding hands. Your faces may never be one foot under one foot between each other, only be in group settings. Like these were rules that I had to sign. And then on top of that, they wanted us to come for basically

premarital counseling, preparing for marriage every few weeks. And I was 16 in high school. And so it was so intense. And we did some of these things for a while. And I felt very conflicted because I was like, I feel like this is really strange and weird. And my parents aren't enforcing this on me, but this purity culture youth group is. And it was very difficult. What happened for me is I did end up crossing boundaries with this guy. I actually did end up eventually having sex with him. And because there was so much shame and lack of space to talk about, even temptations of any kind, we hit it. I felt so much shame. I didn't feel like I could talk to anybody about it. I almost considered having to leave the youth group or maybe even the church because I was so afraid of what they would think and say because I obviously

went against all the rules that I had signed. And so that created so much shame within me about my sexual desire, you know, all of this specific rule setting. So that's just kind of some of my story. And I will say one thing that negatively happened for me in that is I was also very much taught it's for the woman has to mitigate all the lust for the man. And therefore, you know, because this happened between you and your boyfriend, it's your fault. And so that was a message that I learned, unfortunately, later that did lead me to some very bad sexual situations, such as sexual abuse and being raped and blaming myself and not really realizing what had actually happened in those circumstances. And so I say that to say, like, I've had to do a lot of personal healing. All of this was many,

many years ago. I'm 34 now. But I've had to do a lot of healing and a lot of processing through what does the Lord really say about sexual boundaries and sexual ethic and also just removing the layers of shame. And so for the people that have been very badly indoctrinated by purity culture, I completely hear you. I can resonate with you in many ways. And I will also say for the people that are like, okay, then let's just go rogue and go the opposite of this. Like, I also don't believe that is the way to go. Uh, I really believe that purity culture had good intentions, but it did so did it in bad ways or in negative ways that hurt people. And we have to take space to grieve for that. We have to take space to heal. I don't think people intended for it to have as bad of effects as it actually did. And I don't think the right answer is to say,

well, let's go the opposite of purity culture and let's say masturbation is fine. And let's say exploring our bodies is fine. And let's say experimenting with sexual things are fine, because I don't ultimately think, as I've wrestled that out with the Lord, I don't think that that's what the Lord desires for me to do when I was a single. And so I think there has to be a place that we make space to heal, that we process through the shame that we have felt from purity culture. the shame that we have felt from purity culture. And then instead of just leading or going to the opposite side, like now, how do I rebuild that in a healthy way and coming back to land somewhere

in the middle, right? That's what I had to do. And to be honest, like Preston, when I started dating again and I started dating in a healthier way with a lot of healing in place, I personally knew some of my past tendencies and I had to be more legalistic, quote unquote, for myself because I knew, hey, this isn't necessarily something that I've ever been great at doing. So I need to set maybe stricter boundaries than maybe this person that hasn't had some of the experiences that I've had. And so some of my friends would look at me and be like, Kate, you're being so legalistic. You won't let the guy over at

10 PM. You won't do this, that, and the other. And you're in your late twenties. Like why are you being so strict? That's so silly. And I was like, because I know my deep why now, I know what I deeply want to do. And I want to uphold that and set myself up for success. And me letting that guy over at 10 p.m. to watch a movie or to just hang out, for me, nothing good happens after 10 p.m. For me personally. I've noticed that. That's happened to me many times. And I'm not going to sit here and pretend that just because I'm this age, oh, it should be fine. Or I'm an adult right now. And so it should be cool. I'm not 21 just because I'm this age, oh, it should be fine. Or, you know, I'm an adult right now. And so it should be cool.

Like I'm not 21 anymore. I'm not 16 anymore. And so I had to also combat some of my friends who came out of purity culture and were like, you're being so legalistic. I'm like, I'm not being legalistic because anyone's telling me to do it this way. It's because I personally wrestled with

and come to these new boundaries. That's because I personally wrestled with and come to these new boundaries. That's a big difference. I feel like true blue legalism is not putting certain guidelines on yourself. It's projecting them on others, right? It's codifying them for everybody else. Even your line about nothing good happens after 10, I think people in purity culture would have said that, but that's that there's some, let's just leave Christianity out. There's some scientific validity to that. It's,

it's only if you studied like willpower, but willpower is something that it's like a, it's like a cup of water and it slowly drains out throughout the day. Like it is just, it's not just like, Oh, everybody's happens to have less weight willpower at night. No,

that that's how willpower actually works. Like that's why in the morning you're, you're, you're filled less willpower at night. No, that's how willpower actually works. That's why in the morning you're filled with willpower. You can conquer the world. And then it just, as you go through the day, it slowly goes out until at night. And then we all know when we're tired, we typically make worse decisions than when we're alert and have our wits about it. So, I mean, that's just, that's one of those things. decisions than when we're alert and have our wits about it. So, I mean, that's just, that's one of those things, like, I get that purity culture might've legalized that and that might've been bad, maybe. But just because purity culture happened to say it doesn't mean it's

necessarily unwise to do. And you're even saying just for yourself, I would say in general, like whatever your temptations are in life, the later it gets in the day, the tireder you are, the more powerful those temptations are going to be. That shouldn't be radical, right? I was getting nervous when I talked about this conversation. It's just wisdom. As a Christian, if you know there are certain areas in your life that are tempting to you, if you're an alcoholic, are you going to leave alcohol in your house? Like, are you going to leave out stumbling blocks for yourself? Or are you going to do as much as possible to remove them?

And you're probably less tempted at 8 a.m. than you are at the end of the day after a hard work day if you're an alcoholic. Right. But it's just, you know, if I'm a guy and I really want with my eyes to start glorifying God and I don't want to look at pornography or anything remotely close, why, if I'm following, you know, these girls on Instagram who I don't even know, you know, these Instagram models that are going to trigger me, why would I do that? Like, why would I keep following them if I know it could potentially cause me an issue and be a

stumbling block for myself? And that's a big one that comes up a ton in dating is like who people follow as well. Totally. Big deal. It just, it's not worth it. You know, if the priority of your heart, the object of your heart is to really glorify God in that sense. And you're really serious about it. It's just removing stumbling blocks or potential stumbling blocks is one of the best, most wise things you can do. And I think that's probably what I would call maturity as a believer. Just being mature to recognize, is this going to be an issue for me later or not? And if so, let me just go ahead and

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Here's a concern that I think people who have reacted to purity culture, I think it's a valid concern. Like even that idea of like female, and this is not what you're saying, but this is how your words can be taken. Like, so you're saying females are just sexual stumbling blocks. Like, why not teach guys that they're created in God's image, their fellow image bearers, teach them not to look away, but teach them how to look correctly at a fellow image bearer. Can you fill in that? I'm not hearing you say, no, don't do that. But I mean, whenever the whole language of somebody black comes up. It's great. Well, cause Preston, you've been in like guy talks, you've been in like men weekends, you know, like sometimes it gets so raw, raw, practical, um practical that we're like so focused on averting your eyes.

We lose. No, it's actually a theology problem, right? When you're looking at them, you're reducing them to an object instead of seeing them as the value that God plays, which is a man or a woman made in God's image. And anytime you look at them and you reduce them to something other than that, I think that's sin, really, because you're using them for your own fulfillment and satisfaction. So, yes, how can I train my heart and my mind to go to a place that—because here's the reality. You're going to see soft core porn everywhere you go. Like, you go to your neighborhood pool, you watch a commercial. Like, whether you like it or not, this stuff's going to be out there. So, you know, it might be in your church. Say you go

to a little bit more loose church and there's going to be a woman who's maybe wearing something that she probably maybe shouldn't in that sense. But instead of going to her and saying, hey, you are causing me to stumble, right? How can I operate in a place that, hey, regardless of what anyone's wearing around me, I can operate out of, hey, she's made in God's image. Like I view her as a person who carries so much inherent value that I would never even dare to look at them in any other way. And that's the retraining of my mind and my brain, my heart and soul. But where's the balance with, okay, the swimsuit models on Instagram. You know what I mean?

Because then there's like, yes, I see them as a human being, but also this isn't good for me to be maybe looking at and consuming. And it goes for both genders. I feel like it's a, it's not just a male thing, though. We talk about it. That does happen for women too. Well, you you you hear the show outlander i don't know if you've heard of the show preston on um okay yeah it's like

the ultimate and i back in the day used to watch this show and it's like the soft core porn for women but it's like oh it's okay because this is a show and like it's not actually and everyone's watching some rugged guy who's emotionally vulnerable and like all these women are like oh i just want jamie in my life and they're like jamie's like the best and i mean it is like crazy the things they show on this show that i saw years ago and you know same thing i'm like we're but we're like oh it's okay for us to watch that right yeah but you go back so how do you um how do guys who are like, yes, let's see them as a human and not an object, see women as a human, not an object.

And where's the line between that and- Like lusting? But this isn't a great, it's probably still not a great thing for me to follow this girl who consistently is posting photos of herself in a swimsuit or, you know, provocative me feeling that it's kind of provocative type of photos. I feel like that that's the, I mean, you're choosing to create that social environment by following people that doesn't, there's no purpose in this. Whereas if you go to a, if you go to the beach, take your family to the beach, like there's certain rhythms, there's certain situations that are just part of the normal rhythm of life where you're not going

out of your way to invite them in. I think that's a difference, right? Yeah. There's invited and uninvited temptation is probably what I would call it. You know, I think that's probably the best way to put it is, are you inviting temptation to your door? Because we read in Genesis that sin is always crouching at the door, right? And if sin is like, it is waiting at every moment to invite itself in. And why would we ever as Christians who have an objective of being holy before God ever want to put ourselves in a situation where we are inviting temptation and sin and we're leaving that door like, you know, just a little bit open. Like that for me is a priority and object of your heart, which, um, so invited versus uninvited. I would just say when it comes to inviting temptation

in your life as Christians, we, we should really, that for me is probably more of like a, you know, sincerity and how much tenacity you have desiring to be holy, you know. And that's where I think legalism, you know, went astray. It's holiness defines you and they miss Jesus. And this is where the pendulum is swung the other way where it's, hey, holiness doesn't define us, but neither does Jesus. They miss Jesus too. So both sides of the pendulum, they both miss Jesus. Holiness doesn't define you. Jesus does. And on the other side, it's, well, your actions still do matter because they matter to Jesus and how you are presented towards him. So it's both a Jesus issue in that sense where he is the center. Before we leave purity culture, what are some other things you guys have seen that is maybe is left over from purity culture that we should get rid of?

Like some more negative things are like, yeah, this way of framing it, this wording, this idea was really not helpful. And we should not integrate that into our post-period culture dating practices. Yeah. I think there's the topic of modesty. There's also the topic for when we talk with singles, I think there's a big idea and a big fear for women around sex and sexual desire. And there's a lot of narratives there for the woman specifically that, hey, sex is actually built for the man and you're not necessarily ever going to enjoy it. And you have to do it whenever the man wants you to do it. And we see those are purity culture messages that have acquired in women's brains that they've never really sorted through. And

then they get married. They might get married. And if they do, we see a lot of issues that happen in marriages because that was never dealt with. And you even see actually perfectly awesome guys that don't know that their women are only having sex with them out of fear or wanting to engage with them because they think this is, I have to, even if I can't really say no. And I think that is something that is really detrimental that we spoke about a lot in a series we did earlier this year on Heart of Dating. And it was interesting, Preston, I will actually say this. It was really interesting to see when we started sharing and talking about the subject, how many single men

that have never been married were like, oh yeah, but my wife will have to have sex with me whenever I want. And so I was like, oh my gosh. Okay. So we really do need to talk about this. I was shocked that how many single guys started popping up being like, oh yeah, but this is like, I'm like, any single guys started popping up being like, oh yeah, but this is like, I'm like, wow. Okay.

All right. Yeah. We, we really do need to talk about this. Kate or JJ, where's that coming from? What, what's,

what's creating that perception that in marriage, a guy can just have sex whenever he wants. And the woman just has to follow. Like, is it, are there very streams feeding? We can't reduce it just to purity culture. Can we,

or is it, or is it movies that every time there's a romantic scene, it's like... No, it's from Corinthians. It's from the idea of do not withhold sex, which was totally not what he was talking about. He was talking about to the Jews and the Christian converts who thought that even when you're married, you could be more holy than other people by abstaining from sex. And he said, no, no, no, that's not the point. The point is don't withhold sex as a bartering tool or don't withhold sex in order to be quote more holy. Like you're married and sex within marriage is a great thing. But I think, you know, what was also said in the

same teaching was women actually have a voice and they have a right. And men, this is not the Roman Empire and the cultural idea of today. Women actually do have a voice in there to be respected so much so that you're supposed to actually be submitted to them and surrender to them and to die for them. And that was a crazy teaching for the day. It just absolutely blew the world, um, over because women were property. And since the invention, you know, of the, of the church, uh, and since Christianity, you know, spread, that's why we actually see it as being, uh, it's always been female centric. It's always been actually a majority female because it's been the safest place, safest place, uh, for women, uh, versus the world and the secular culture. Uh, it's always been actually majority female because it's been the safest place for

women versus the world and the secular culture. And that's been since Jesus came. It was revolutionary in that sense. But it's 1 Corinthians 7, the idea of withholding sex or do not withhold sex. And I would say probably the second thing is that it's so ironic that purity culture is so legalistic and hyped up sex that I actually think they preach that sex is actually a need, not a desire. And there's a big difference. You can't go without a need. Like you have to have water at some point. You have to have. You have to have. And so even when your wife has just had a baby and she's in postpartum and she's sore and she's tired and she's not okay emotionally and physically, well, I'm sorry, honey, I waited six weeks. It's time to have sex. I can't wait any longer. I have to have it. And there's a big difference between, well, it's a strong desire for me, but I don't need it.

Like it's not a, I'm going to die without this thing, like air, food, water, things like that. But like, it's a strong desire and a healthy desire in the context of marriage. And one that, yes, where I think people get tripped up and where a lot of guys are chiming in is they're like, well, my wife is withholding it from me. up and where a lot of guys were chiming in is they're like, well, my wife is withholding it from me. I'm like, well, if she genuinely is withholding sex, then yes, that needs to be discussed. And that isn't a correct thing to do in marriage. However, if she's fearful or something's going on or she doesn't feel great, there needs to be conversations around that. She's not necessarily purpose. There's a difference in intention of I'm purposely trying to withhold this to punish you for some reason versus, oh, I am experiencing shame or fear or I'm feeling something. And that needs to be a conversation. And I think that's where we

just in that conversation that we were having is, hey, like sex is a beautiful thing. Neither party should withhold this from one another. And it needs to be a safe environment for both people. And if it's not, then that really needs to be discussed in a major way. Yeah, that's good. That's good. All right. Here's a question I would love your thoughts on. So a kind of a philosophy of dating.

Should all, well, I already know you're going to probably say, you're going to get some gray area answer here. But is dating ultimately for marriage or can dating be to get good at dating and experience what it's like? In other words, fictitious scenario, this hasn't happened, but say, you know, one of my kids came home and says, hey, I want to, I want to date this guy. And I said, oh, cool. And if I, and I wouldn't say this, I wouldn't say, well, do you want to marry him? You know, but, but if I were in this fictitious scenario, I'm going to say, is it within the realm of possibility that at some point down the road, you can see yourself married to this kind, this guy or this kind of guy. And if they said, oh no, not at all. I've no, not, I would never marry somebody like this. I just want to date him. Would that be like, Oh, well then you shouldn't date him because dating ultimately has some kind of marriage at

the end. Or the other view, right. Is like, well, let's just not even think about, yes, you would never want to marry this guy, but you just want to go on a date. You want to learn how to go on a date. You want to see what it's like. You're curious. You want to get better at dating. And, and, you know, um, of those two kind of different approaches to dating, which one is the better one? We definitely have a middle ground answer for that. But I do think you should always go into dating with an intention that is, hey, I'm not here to just have fun. I do think you can enjoy yourself in dating, but if the intention is I'm just here to have fun and kind of learn things and there is

no intention for marriage. For example, I just got out of a breakup. I just got out of a divorce. I'm in a close season of singleness, as we call it. If I am then dating in that season, but I know I actually have zero intention to marry any of these people I'm dating, we would not recommend that at all. So yes, you should only date if there is some kind of intention that you do want to get married and you are trying to explore that with another person. Where I think we go awry in Christian dating is where you're like, you need to know right away if you're going to marry this person and figure it out. And did God tell you on the first date? And can you really picture them as the father of your children after one or two dates? And that's where I think we put way too much pressure

on the process of dating and where JJ and I will step in and say, Hey guys, we need to like loosen this up a little bit. Like, yes, have quality intentions of leading towards marriage, but also give people, people, this is a real human being, a child of God, a man or woman of God, get curious about them. You don't have to know on a first date if you're going to marry them. This is just, for all intents and purposes, a friend encounter. It's a friend 90-minute interaction where you're seeing if there's enough qualities there that you potentially want to see them one more time.

And stop trying to picture the altar at the end of the day. Now, the caveat, of course, is if there are blaring red flags, like, oh, they're an atheist and you find that out at the first date or, oh, they're into witchcraft. Oh, okay. So we're not necessarily going to go on a second date with that person, right? We're going to be like, I can't see marriage with this person. But that's not usually happening in the dating world. It's like, oh, I didn't feel this spark with them. Oh, you know, I don't know if they're exactly my type. And therefore, they eliminate somebody after a first date, or they may never even go out with them. And the reality is, hey,

give it some more time. You don't really know yet. So you're saying if you see marriage exclu-sia-tory, I don't know if that's the right word, signs, then like, oh, because of this, this is something I would never marry a person that has this thing, then that you shouldn't. That's what we say is the difference between a red flag and a deal breaker. Like if you've, if you encounter a deal breaker within the first day or the 10th day, hey, this is off for me. And the deal breaker shouldn't be, oh, they worship God a little different than I worship God. Okay. Like, why is that your deal

breaker? The deal breaker is they don't want kids and I know genuinely I want kids. The deal breaker is they're not a Christian, I'm a Christian. It's like the deal breaker is they're abusive. Okay, that's a deal breaker, right? We're talking about heavy handing deal breakers. Yeah, well, active addiction would be a big one. Like they have an active addiction at this moment. I had a friend recently go on a date and the guy genuinely told her, you know, I have a very addictive personality and i do like drinking quite a bit i was like yeah that's um probably not going to be

a go for you my friend cheers and being honest yeah so that's a deal breaker you know so there you go so then what what do you what's your view then on on teenagers dating. And I promise, I promise you offline, I was not going to even hint at some kind of like coded situation that I'm working through with my kids. I don't like to bring my kids into, they don't want to be air on the podcast or whatever. So if I say anything or whatever, I'm not,

this isn't code for something I'm dealing with right now. So good. I do have three teenage kids. So I would love your thoughts on, because, because that, like when you said like dating, there still should be some kind of like off in the distance marriage connection or question, you know, but for like somebody who's like 16, 15, 17, I mean, I know they could get married at 18, 19. My oldest daughter actually got married at 19.

It was actually very bright. It was great. It was actually, and I thought I would never have said that. I was like, dude, get married in your mid-20s or something at the earliest. Like, live your life. Right. Figure yourself out. Your brain's not fully developed.

You're 25. Like, you don't, you know, how you, you know. But that, yeah, it was absolutely, could not have perfect for him for my oldest daughter. What am I saying? Oh, so yeah, I guess so. So teenagers and dating, what's your specific advice? What would you tell a 16 year old that wants to get go on a date day or maybe seriously date? Yeah, I just, I think there is a huge difference between dating under 18 and dating over 18. Like you're not going to ask your 16-year-old kid to choose a career for the rest of their life at 16 years old. Right.

Right. Like why would you ever give them the power or the right to make the decision to choose a spouse for their life? At like 15, 16. Right. It's just the reality is that, and some people do, some people find that at 18, 19, you know, they make that choice to marry the high school sweetheart. I would probably just explain for the teenager. I would personally probably not let, we haven't talked about this. We got our first kid coming in February. So I'm sure we'll, we'll be having this conversation, you know, in years from now, I would just say, they could probably

date at 16, 17, 18, but it's more to learn how to date well. And I would stress a million percent, you can learn a lot about yourself on the way, but the ultimate object is you can glorify God in this process. You can honor them in this process. One of the easiest rules, the golden rule of dating that we just like to use to simplify it is regardless of what happens, if this is your wife or your husband, or if this is the worst first date of your life, how can you leave this person better than you found them? Like your golden rule of dating to make it as easy as possible is how can I leave this person better than you found them? Like your golden rule of dating to make it as easy as possible is how can I leave this person better than I found them? And that should overflow into boundaries, emotional, spiritual, physical boundaries, how you treat them, how you honor them,

what you say to them, even from when you're breaking up with them, right? You can still rely on this rule. I want to genuinely leave this person better than I found them. Okay. Another thing I'll just say for, for younger teenagers, high schoolers and dating, and this is just my personal opinion, but, and, um, is that, you know, especially these days, there's so much vying for these kids attention in terms of what is telling them who, who they are and what they should

look like and all of these different things. And they're wrestling through so much probably insecurity and just figuring out the changes in their body and do they feel good about those and who God says that they are and do I like this personality quality about myself? And I used to quality about myself. And like, I used to like box down this personality quality. How do I open, like embrace it and open that back up to the world. And there's so much of that happening in high school. Like you're, you're really trying to figure out who am I? I'm trying to own that. And I'm trying to really like own the way I look and my body, which is a big thing that's changing, obviously in those high school years. And so I do think one thing that's challenging is when that person who is dealing with a sense of figuring out their identity and who they are and really learning to love themselves the way

that God sees them and loves them, there is a hard part to it. Because if you add in dating, there's a level that you kind of, without having a strong, strong, strong foundation of those things in place, you will almost automatically go and look to the other person to fill that for you, to make you feel beautiful, to make you feel valuable, to make you feel worthy. And I'm not saying that's going to happen every time. I know that was my story, a thousand percent. But I think it's just rare for that foundation of identity and true godly confidence to be deeply set and secure at such a young age. And I am always very impressed by teenagers that I do meet that have such a strong foundation in the Lord and are really working

and actively trying to figure out who they are. And that is so beautiful. And I was definitely not there at their age. So I see that and I'm amazed by it. But I just think that dating is riskier in those years because almost no matter what you're going to put your identity in, you're going to look to the other person to fill things in you that you're still trying to figure out. And therefore, if that thing doesn't work out, it also can really be a shock to your identity and a shock to your value because that's where rejection starts eating away at you and tearing you down and more of a sense than you can ever imagine. And so that's kind of just where I think it is a tough thing at an early age because you aren't necessarily there yet with your identity and foundation.

That's good. That's good. My two, real quick, and then I'll let you guys go. My two cons against teenagers dating would be number one, It's like, what are you going to do? Date this guy for like six years until you get married minimum, you know, is that really like, um, and maybe I've, I know some cases where that happens, you know, but it's like the odds of that, it's pretty rare. So somebody is going to end up getting hurt, whatever. That's, that's a dumb, like, and I've got pushbacks even to that. But, and then the other one is if you do, if, okay, so you do date for six, seven years, whatever. Well, now you also missed out on these beautiful times of singleness during the time of your life,

when you're so free and you have energy and adventure and you could do anything in the world, go to Costa Rica for nine months and learn Spanish. Go to a youth hostel in Amsterdam, maybe not Amsterdam, but you know, you know, like just go, go explore. Like you're so free and like just, just go learn, experience life. And if you're dating somebody, it's going to be a lot harder to do. My con, sorry, my pro would be from a parent perspective. I'm like, ah, part of me would like to still have them under my parental authority while they are navigating dating questions. Cause all of a sudden, if they wait until they're 22, then it's like, I'm just kind of like, they can ask me for advice,

but I'm not like, I don't have the kind of same kind of authority that I do when they're like 16 or something. So I don't know. Cause the, your goal as a parent is basically the day that they turn 18, how have I trained them to go out and independently do life? And if they haven't dated at all, then that's an area that I have not specifically trained. Hopefully, they'll have wisdom and stuff that will go into that. So, I don't know. I don't have a firm stance. But anyway, your thoughts are really helpful. Where can people find, tell us just briefly, where can people find your ministry, your work, and what kind of things can you offer people?

Yeah. So basically everything's at heartofdating.com. Our podcast comes out every Wednesday and sometimes Fridays. We have two episodes sometimes. And then we have a program called the School of Dating, which is an eight-week intensive mentorship program that we offer a few times a year. That's on the website. We have a yearly conference. Our next one is coming up this December in Nashville. For all you singles at New Year's that are like, I hate this holiday, will come hang with us in Nashville and like a thousand other singles. It's going to be so fun. And, you know, on our website, too, we have tons of free resources. We have, you know, probably at this point over 300 podcasts.

We categorize them into different topics. So if you want a hot topic, if you want to learn about sex in some capacity, mental health, like we've categorized all the podcasts. So you can go on there and find the podcasts that suit you, which is awesome. So yeah, all those things, heartofdating.com. I didn't realize you guys had a conference, a thousand people. That's awesome. Yeah. I'm looking at the website now. Wow. That's crazy. Awesome. Well, thank you. It's so fun. Thank you guys for being on Theology in a Row. This is long overdue and yeah, I love the work these guys are doing. Keep it up. Thank you, bro. We adore you too. And all the work you're doing, I was just talking about you pressing the other night at a girl's dinner and how much you deeply impacted

me in the series I did on the LGBTQ community and dating in my community. And so it was, yeah, you've been just such an awesome resource. So, so grateful for you. Thank you for that. I really appreciate it. Glad, glad it's been helpful. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.