Theology in the Raw - Same-Sex Attraction, Bipolar Disorder, Suicidality, and the Goodness of God: Brenna Blain

Episode Date: August 26, 2024

Brenna is a speaker, writer, wife and mom, and is the author of Can I Say That? How Unsafe Questions Lead us to the Real God. In this episode, Brenna and I talk about mental health, suicidality, sexuality, bipolar disorder, and many other things related to her journey. Register for the Austin conference on sexualtiy (Sept 17-18) here: https://www.centerforfaith.com/programs/leadership-forums/faith-sexuality-and-gender-conference-live-in-austin-or-stream-online Register for the Exiles 2 day conference in Denver (Oct 4-5) here: https://theologyintheraw.com/exiles-denver/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey friends, our faith, sexuality and gender conferences right around the corner, September 17th, 18th at life family church in Austin, Texas, go to center for faith.com for all the information there. And then right around that corner is our two day exiles and Babylon conference in Denver, Colorado, October 4th to 5th. We're going to be talking about discipleship in an election year. We're talking about sexuality after purity culture. We're talking about fake news, propaganda and healthy news consumption. We got loads of awesome people coming out to join us. A German gray, Russell Moore, Caitlin Schaess, Jacob, Patrick Miller, and a bunch of other

people. We got the boys from the church politics podcast, Chris Butler, Justin Gibbony, and many other speakers. Oh, I'm going to be hanging out there as well. Theologyandarod.com. All the information is there for that conference. Okay. My guest today is my good friend, Brenna Blaine, who is the author of this recently released book. Can I say that? How unsafe questions lead us to the real God. Oh my word. This is a great book. So good that I actually ended up writing the forward to it. Brenna asked me to do that. And after reading the book, I was like, Oh my goodness, I would be honored to forward this book. It is raw. It is honest. It is challenging. Her story, as you'll see is just one that is very raw. And I'm not going to spoil it. I'll let her tell her story. So I think that this will

be a very engaging and encouraging in many ways, but very honest conversation with somebody that I deeply respect. So please welcome back to the show. I think for the third time, the one and only Brenna Blaine. ["Theology and the Raw"] Welcome back to Theology and the Raw. Brenna, how are you doing today? I'm good. My kids just left feeling free.

How old are your kids now? They're almost three and almost six. So this morning it was one of them tore apart a bunch of Styrofoam. And while I was vacuuming that up, he went to the bathroom and pooped everywhere except for the toilet. So we're in that stage of life. Sounds like a puppy. Yeah. Yes. Very similar. I've always wanted a dog and now that I have two boys, I'm like, maybe we wait. Oh, yeah.

I don't know. Do you still post like the most hilarious videos with you and your sons or no? You know, it's funny you mentioned that I got home from my run yesterday and I deleted my tick talk. I deactivated my Twitter and I unfriended everyone on Facebook. So I'm like, I'm like a rage stage of life. There's a story there. I'm sure I got to be on some really fun interviews that were on YouTube and YouTube is a world that I'm not in often. And so I got to anticipate some, what the reactions would be. And then I very purposely have never posted, I should say never, I've only posted a few faith things. I did a lot of comedy on TikTok

and it got me a little following and it was funny because a lot of people, when they went from TikTok to Instagram were like, oh, I don't like you. I don't like that you're in the faith world. And then vice versa, a lot of people on Instagram would go to my TikTok and be like, whoa, you're doing some comedy. That's like interesting.

Anyways, so someone took a bunch of my in good faith. It was not malicious whatsoever, but they took a bunch of my faith videos and posted them on TikTok. And it just became a world of comments that I didn't want to be involved with. So I was like, you know what? Social media is stealing my time anyways. And I enjoy Instagram. I feel called to be on Instagram,

but everything else I don't necessarily feel called to be on and it's just distracting. And it's like, makes me mad and I don't need to be mad. So why don't we just do away with it? I've been locked out of my Instagram for about six weeks. They, so I, my password is compromised. So I've got a few different people that have access to my account and the one guy ended up, so he read it. He changed the password, sent me the new password and everything. And when I tried to sign back in, it says, uh, okay, there's a two-step authentication. So here, you know, enter your password and

then go to your authenticator app and put in your password there or something. I'm like, I don't know what an authenticator app is. So apparently it was set. I don't know. I'm like, I don't have a, nothing's sounds like a scam. Well, it's the, it isn't, it does sound like it, but it's not. It's a, so my, my guy who's been helping me, he's still, and, and, Oh, you know, Chris country, he, he was, yeah. Yeah. So he, he's way more techie than I am. And he's, he can't get into it. And like, he's like, I, this is, and he's reading on like Reddit forums and everything that this is not uncommon. So I've been, but to the point is like, it's

been kind of nice not having it. Like, I don't, I'm like, I'm not motivated to try to get back in. So I still have Twitter, which I am on periodically, but, uh, Twitter, Twitter's I mean, it's a cesspool, but it's almost funny. It's, it's like people were so mean and cruel and inhuman and just, it brings out the worst in humanity that it's almost entertaining. Maybe that's just kind of a weird dark sense of humor, but it's almost like, really, you think that? Like that's fascinating. It's like going to the zoo sometimes. It's like, wow, this is like just so interesting to me to see how people behave.

But anyway, so you deleted all your stuff. That's cool. Okay, your book, Can I Say That? How Unsafe Questions Lead Us to the Real God. I think I've told you this. If I'm not, I'll try to make time. But I started reading it. I was like, I can't put this down. This is so good. You are very raw in the book. I mean, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I was like, I can't put this down. This is so, this is so good.

You are very raw in the book. Was that easy for you, hard for you? Was it therapeutic? Did it, was it triggering to kind of revisit some of these, I mean, to say difficult things you've been through as an understatement. What was that process like for you? Yeah, it was really helpful.

There's so much that didn't make it into the book. There's so much that my agent and my editor were like, this is good and it's good for you, but it's not necessary for the people reading it. I'm sure you felt this way in writing, that there's, it's almost like the analogy of the sculpture where you're like, you gotta get, you gotta tear away what's not needed. And so getting it all out, that was super helpful for me. I really was unaware of how, because it's my story and it's just the life that I've lived,

I was really unaware of how heavy, I guess, some of this stuff was until I started getting feedback from people who were reading it, who were saying things like, oh, this is a lot. I'm like, oh, maybe I gotta go to therapy a little more often, I don't know. So that surprised me. Man, it was the best part I think is just being able to sit down

and think through things theologically in detail because I've gotten to do interviews for so long. So I've gotten so used to the 40 minute version of my story, whereas getting to sit down and think, well, this is what I've learned, but can I open up the Bible and find that my perception is actually truth, based in truth? Am I able to do that? I think that was a really helpful practice in just looking at my own story and going,

okay, is what I believe and what I say and what I think I know accurate compared to what we're given in scripture. So maybe not the 40 minute version, can you give us the five to 10 minute version of your story? I think last time you might've shared it, but that was a while ago. So give us a... Yeah. Yeah. So I was born into a Christian home. My dad was actually a pastor at a very young age though. I experienced pretty radical brokenness. My grandma died who... That was the first place where it ever go,

oh, we pray for healing and people are healed. That's what happens. Did that, that didn't happen. That was kind of my first hiccup with God. Maybe about two months after that, my parents sat us down and said, hey, your dad made some choices. He can't live at home anymore. My dad was already not working in ministry anymore, so that transition was interesting. And then he moved out of our house. My parents got separated, and a month after that, I ended up being molested by a stranger. So by then, I'm 10 years old going, you know, the God who is safe, who's caring, who's loving is not showing up in

my life. And I don't have the language to express any of these things that have happened, any of the things that I'm feeling to my parents, to people around me. And also no one's talking about these things. No one's talking to me like I'm a human who's experienced these things specifically in the faith world. So I just figured I'll probably write faith off.

And then by the time I was 14, all those thoughts had been marinating and I realized I was same sex attracted. So, you know, being gay was not compatible with the faith world that I was in. And so that was kind of the nail in the coffin that I would step away from faith publicly when I graduated from high school.

But I was going to this youth group and I had a youth pastor who found out I was in the closet. And he ended up saying to me, Brenna, I'm really glad that you're here. And a lot of people wrestle with this. And it just gave me permission, whether I know it or not, at the time, it gave me permission to continue wrestling within faith spaces instead of outside of faith spaces. And so I got this foundational kind of upbringing in the faith that introduced me to a lot of false things about God, but also like a lot of true things about God. But I decided when I graduated high school, didn't want to go to college. I was terrible at school. And I was, I just, I wanted to

date hot girls. I wanted to surf, and I wanted to smoke weed. And you can do all those things in Hawaii, which was so much better to me than California. So I was trying to figure out how to get there. And my ticket to get there was just pretend you're interested in doing missions. So I did Youth with a Mission, had all the Christian vocabulary applied, God accepted, went. While I was there, I met someone else who had a very similar story to mine who had already been dabbling in the things that I wanted to dabble in. And I saw her experience the Lord in a way that I could not fathom.

And basically someone felt like the Lord was telling them to go find her and read some scripture to her where she had told me she had been hearing voices. And I was like, dude, what are you hearing? And she said, I keep hearing someone say like, where are you? So two weeks later, we're like sitting outside, this leader comes out and is like, hey, can I pray for you?

I've just felt like God sent me out here and we're like rolling our eyes as far back into our school as we can. And she flips open to Genesis and reads the account of Adam and Eve and gets to the part where they're hiding and God says, where are you? And this girl realizes the Holy Spirit had been pursuing her this entire time. And that freaked me out. I was terrified.

But it was like there's no, it couldn't have been anything else. And so I prayed, Lord, like if you're real, I surrender everything. Now, I give you my entire life. I don't know what you want me to do. I don't know what any of this looks like. I don't know what going home is gonna look like. I don't know. But I can't fathom what I just saw.

It can't be anything else. And then I read the New Testament because I had to know who this Jesus person was, like the accurate picture of Jesus. And through reading the New Testament, I saw a Jesus who spent a lot of time with those who were labeled as taboo and far out of the religious group in that time setting. I saw a Jesus who empowered women, and I saw a Jesus who was so incredibly gentle, impatient, and kind, just embodying

the fruit of the Spirit, obviously, but just was so far beyond me. And while I was in YWAM, I got four different people gave me the same word that I was going to go home and teach and I thought, you're out of your mind. I don't want to be in ministry. I've never taught before, very disinterested in this, but I'm not going to kick any doors down. But if this is what God is leading to,

sure, I went home within a month, got asked to speak, I said yes, I tried it and it was like, oh, this is what people are talking about when they say they're passionate. Like, this is crazy. At the same time, there's like a two year gap where I was teaching at youth group,

leading a small group. I dealt with really bad mental health and suicidality throughout high school, partly because of just what I wrestled with, but partly because I think that's kind of, it runs in my family. And I thought I was healed. I came home and was really, really good. And all of a sudden I'm about to get married. I've been given a job as interim youth pastor.

I'm about to start my junior year of Bible and theology and I can't stop thinking about death. I just, I can't. And I'm sleeping two hours, maybe a night, and that went on for about six months. And I just remember begging God to heal me. Like, I know you're real, I know you care, I know you'll show up. Would you just heal me like I've seen you do before? And just wasn't healed. Went through the cycle of therapists and medication and nothing was working and I decided, well, I might as well just go beat with Jesus. So, planned what I was going to

do. Went to the office, said I was praying about stepping down and was about to go home to try and commit suicide. And quite literally, a woman came into my office and said, Do I need to take you to the hospital? She'd been praying for me and felt like God said, go get her. And so I ended up in the psych ward being diagnosed as bipolar. That felt like one, it was a lot of clarity that I needed. I wasn't crazy. This thing had a name.

Then on the other side, I'd heard pastors talk about struggling with depression and anxiety, but never in my life had I heard someone, like anyone in ministry leadership say, I have bipolar disorder. I just knew the Hollywood version of it. And so I'm sitting there going, man, does this disqualify me from what I'm so passionate about and what I've felt called to. That's

been really something that's still to this day, it's almost seven years later, so difficult to wrestle with. Do you consider yourself bipolar now? Is that something that comes and goes? Oh, yeah. I mean, I, so a year and a half ago was the last time I was in a psych ward. I actually ended up overdosing on drugs

in the middle of writing my manuscript for this book. And my husband found me called 911. I actually write about it and was rushed to the emergency room and got court ordered to be in a psych ward because I tried to kill myself. And I'm sitting there just going like, oh, there must be some unconfessing in my life because how on earth would I get here? Well, I had gone off of the last time you and I had talked, which was a while ago. I mean, not the Josh Butler one, but the one before that.

At that point in time, I was off medication from the suggestion of someone that we trusted in the kind of psych world and not knowing that most bipolar people never in their life are off medication. And so, the six months after my hospitalization was just a digging of where did I go wrong? Where did I sin? Where, you know, am I in willful disobedience to God? Like, what is going on? And just through submission to, I have two mentors in my life who know me very, very well,

submission to them, prayer with them, prayer and conversations with other people who know me well, who watch me interact with my kids, with my family, with people in my life, said, I really don't think it's sin. I think it's because you are off of your medication. And I think this is something, being bipolar is a brokenness that not a lot of people are healed from during this lifetime.

Well, according to John MacArthur, it doesn't exist, right? Sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, it depends on who you are. And that's been the interesting part of sharing my story on some bigger platforms is this, you know, kind of constant conversation of, it's almost like a horseshoe this, this thought, right? There's like people who are like, it doesn't exist. And then there's people so far on the other side, they're like, oh no, you're just oppressed by a demon. And you need to go through this. And I want to say that the spiritual realm exists.

Like demons exist. It's just, it's real. And people can be oppressed by demons, and it's not something we should write off. But I also want to say, I think it is unhelpful for a chorus of people to say to someone that they aren't walking with. Yeah. To someone who struggles with mental health issues, you're probably oppressed by a demon. If you are unable to walk with them through getting help with what you think they have, saying that online to someone is not a help.

It's much more damaging than it is helpful. What about the, it doesn't exist crowd. Does that bother you or do you just kind of roll your eyes or I think I'm curious about it because I want to know more about what, how they get there. Like I could tell you, I was raising that. Oh, that was, I was like, does cancer exist then medical. Okay. So let me start this is going back 25 years now to my early education. Yeah. Physical disabilities obviously are real illnesses and everything, but mental health, uh, ill, quote unquote illnesses or health issues are, and there's different, there's a spectrum of beliefs here. I don't want to say everybody in kind of MacArthur circles with mental health, uh, ill, quote unquote illnesses or health issues are, and there's different, there's a spectrum of beliefs here. I don't want to say everybody in kind of MacArthur

circles would, would say the exact same thing, but like they, I think they would say that, yes, something like depression is a real thing, but that is because there's some underlying, not necessarily sin issue in the kind of like health and wealth prosperity kind of sense, but like you're not filled with the joy of the spirit because you're not fully aligned with God's God's will. And all of these categories come from psychology. Psychology is based on a secular Freudian worldview. So they kind of say there's because it's based on this secular worldview that is godless. It is not true. So they were very much opposed to integrating any kind of form of psychology into what they would call, you know, biblical counseling or new Thetic counseling is, is

the technical term. So yeah, that was the, I mean, I, that was, that was, that's what I was raised. It took me, like I was told that integrating psychology with a Christian worldview is just incompatible. The people doing it basically don't care about the Bible and not real Christians. They don't have sound theology. It wasn't until I taught at Cedarville university, which is very conservative school, but they very much integrate Christianity and psychology where I sat in rooms with Christian psychologists that prayed for people quoted tons of verses. They were so biblically centered. And I was like, wait a minute, I was told

you guys only rely on psychology and kind of throw your Bible out the window. And I was like, so I was just seeing like, well, what I was told about you people is just not true. So yeah, it's a, that's the whole recent thing with John MacArthur. It's like, I don't know why it's like, well, yeah, he's been saying this for, since the eighties. I don't know why it's a big deal now, but it's weird. The social media cycle now, how some things are just, I don't know. I'm trying to make sense of it. Things that have been well known, at least to, are now becoming a big deal. And people are like, it almost makes it sound like it's the first time people are saying these things. So it doesn't really, you're just kind of

fascinated by that perspective. I mean- Well, I guess I would say like, what about the MRIs of bipolar brains that are different than like a healthy brain? If you can look at an MRI and show someone it's like there's cancer in this brain and this one, you know, why? So I don't know. That's a good question. I'm sure I'll get an email. Somebody will give you a response to that. Okay. So there's two things true of me. Number one, I love to eat and number two, I'm often on the go. And so I'm always looking for quick and easy ways to eat healthy, but it is not easy.

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20% off your next month. Okay. So that's code theology raw 50 at factor meals.com forward slash theology raw 50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month while your subscription is active. This is what I really appreciate about the book is that it wasn't a story of you having all these things in the past. You met Jesus. Everything is basically over. Like you are still wrestling with these things in real time while you're passionately following Jesus. And to me, that was the most, again, I love it. It's not that I love that you have to go through these things, but you simply,

you are, this is the journey for whatever reason you're on. And for you to still cling to the gospel and Jesus in the midst of it all, that's just powerful. And this is why I'm so excited for this book to be out, because I think there's a lot of people that are going to identify with your story. Have you gotten that kind of early feedback yet? I've gotten feedback from people from interviews, maybe surrounding the book. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that I can tell. Preston, I read Brennan Manning for the first time in the last month and I've just been stunned because I think, I know I'm not alone

and I don't, this is gonna, I'm gonna sound like a narcissist saying this, but I told my husband, I was like, reading Brennan Manning while I hope my story ends differently, like, reading Brennan Manning while I hope my story ends differently. Like, I really do. Reading Brennan Manning was like reading a companion for the first time ever. What is it? So I don't, is it, cause he was an alcoholic, right? Like through his, or was it, and did he deal with other issues as well? Or what, what's a, is it about a

story that you resonate with? Lauren Ruffin I read Ragamuffin Gospel and him just own like being honest and talking about his experiences in rehab and his like the fact that he wasn't like, I used to be an alcoholic, but that he's like, I'm an alcoholic. And he continued to struggle and continued to write. There are days for me where I'm like, I cannot do this anymore. Like I, where I feel like my struggle again disqualifies me from being able to do any ministry.

I mean, Brennan wrote so much about grace and I don't know any better way to experience the grace of God than also experience like severe brokenness and like brokenness that is within you, right? Not necessarily. I think it's things where you're like, I'm so just, my thoughts are so disordered and my life is so chaotic and the visceral feeling that I feel on the days that I struggle the most going in the Lord still loves me, still died for me, is still pursuing me, that is a complete life wrecking thing in a good way. Something that just, it's just like the burst of sunrise, right? After the longest darkest night. I, it's really, I can't put it into words whatsoever. But I just, reading Brennan was like the first time I ever felt like I found someone else who's like in the midst of my struggle. Can I still

proclaim that God is good? Yes. And am I still going to admit to my struggle and that God is good next to each other? Yes. So I felt seen in reading him. Can you describe to somebody what is it like to experience bipolar? What is that? Is there any way you can help someone understand that has no category for what that must be like? Yeah, there are days for some, so there's mania and that is like, you don't need any sleep and you could do everything in the world. Like your confidence is through the roof. You might start a million new projects.

The last time I was hospitalized, I had written like 10 songs in four days and like not just written them, but like recorded, produced them. Do I do that? No, like that's not even like something I'm passionate about. It's just something that I did. My husband writes music and he was like, wow, what's going on?

I'm like, I don't know. I just have all this creativity like just bursting out of me. You like, I don't know. I just have all this creativity just bursting out of me. You like, I don't know. I was- And you're happy at these moments? Are you just euphoric? I mean-

Yeah, it's like, it is very euphoric and it's very- And energy? You're just like, you're on crack. Yes, you can go and go and go and go and go and go and go. I was listening to someone else explain their experience and they were going from store to store buying strangers, computers, phones, watches. And then they like went to the hospital, checked into the psych ward, were there for a while, checked out, went back to the store. Just like money spending is a really big sign of that.

I have like, I listen, I was raised during the 2008 whatever recession and my parents listen to Dave Ramsey. So I think it's a gift to my husband that I have a lot of PTSD around debt. So I don't spend money when I'm manic, but that's a thing people do. So there's that. So there's like this high high where it's like you just feel like some people get really into hobbies and just it's like, but it's kind of obsessive. And then you hit low lows where it's like, I cannot do this anymore. And for me, the last time I was in the hospital,

I remember thinking, like, but I don't wanna, I don't wanna feel normal. Like the high highs are so intense and so good feeling almost, especially when you get stuff done that's hard to get done when you're low. But it can switch. I mean, my cycles are usually like weeks to months. Oh, really? And then there's bipolar one and bipolar two, and there's quicker switches for some people and then longer switches.

So you could be in a manic state for like a month? Yeah. So the first time I was hospitalized, my manic episode was medically induced. So I was on an SSRI medication for depression and it was actually keeping me manic, which is why I didn't sleep for six months. So that's a long time, but you can be, some people are in manic episodes, I think, you know, for months at a time, but I don't think typically for half a year.

Usually it's like a week or so. Yes. So it's more than just 24 hours. It's like you're going several days, hardly sleeping. Yeah, it's enough time for you to like, accumulate things, start a new hobby, join a club, show up to the club. Like it's enough to do some weird stuff. And is it a chemical, like, I'm sorry, my ignorance. Is it a chemical imbalance? Like, is it, can you, if you took a blood test, is there something going on in your body that's

producing adrenaline? I mean, something's gotta be going on chemically, I guess. Yeah. I would assume all of it's in your brain. I'm on medication. Sometimes I'm like, I should be more educated on what I have. And then other times I'm like, I don't care. So you have to be on medication probably for, for life or for the foreseeable future. I mean... Yeah, I mean, and we're gonna say that and then I'm gonna get emails of people who are like,

watch this TVN video of my brother who was healed. And I'm like, yes, people are healed. God does that. I believe that. I ask people to pray for me. I pray for myself. But the reality is, you know, there's like, yeah, there's that crowd that's like, you're either possessed or you haven't been or oppressed, or you haven't prayed

enough for healing or you're not willing to be healed. And my answer to that is, so then is God not good enough for me? Right? Like in the now and the not yet, I spoke a week ago on John 16 33, I've said these things to you so that you may have peace in this world, you will have trouble, but take heart for I've overcome the world. I think there's this perception that there are some people who are like, God's desire for you is to be healed in this lifetime. We know churches like that. We know people like that. We know pastors like that. But if God isn't a God who is sufficient enough to be with you

in those struggles, then that doesn't seem like a good enough God. To me, when we're saying we're in the now and the not yet, full healing will come when I'm face to face with Jesus. And then the other part of the I have overcome is the fact that I think it's in Matthew and in Mark we're given the detail. The temple curtain split in two. There should have been a wave of death if the presence of God went out, right? But instead it was the

gift of the Holy Spirit and so we have all been equipped with the Holy Spirit. And so we have all been equipped with the Holy Spirit who is with us quite literally all the time. Our bodies are now the temple. And so God doesn't cause my suffering. I was just having coffee with Gary Brashears a few days ago. Oh, jealous, jealous. And he's talking about why he's not a Calvinist. Typical Gary. Of course. He's a Cal Minion, right? And I'm like sitting across from him, just weeping because we're just having, he's just, he's amazing, brilliant and so kind. He's saying like, there are injustices

that happen in this world that God doesn't cause, right? And so, but the goodness of God is that he can redeem those things. He's not causing them so that he, so then he gets to redeem them. We have free will. That's literally the brokenness of this world is Adam and Eve got to choose. When we have free will, that's where suffering comes from. But God is so good that in his redemption, he he can redeem those things. And so I sit here knowing that I probably won't, you know, if

we're looking at statistics, I probably won't be healed from bipolar disorder. Is it pretty rare for somebody to not have it? Oh, yes. Yes. I will probably be managed by medication my entire life and that medication will change. I think for a long time I was like, I hope this is my only hospitalization. And now I think it's a better thing to say, like the hospital is a good place to go

because it means you're alive and it means you're safe and it means you're alive and it means you're safe and it means you're seeking help. So probably, you know, and I might end up in the hospital again. I might be back in the psych ward again. That doesn't mean that I've been forsaken. When you're in your more depressive states, do you feel that coming on? Like, are you like, oh, I might need to tell somebody that by tomorrow I might be not in a good place and might not be safe or does it happen immediately? Or what's... Yeah, that's a good question.

This last time I was very, so when I say this last time, I mean like a year and a half ago, the last time I was hospitalized, it was very sudden. And I think that's why the attempt was so – because the first time I went to the hospital was like I had a plan but I hadn't attempted. And then this last time, it was like I woke up and was just numb and that was out of nowhere. And so for me, I was in my thinking, I was like, well, tomorrow if I feel the same,

I'm so unattached, right? Like I was like looking at my children, like I feel nothing. And so I was like, okay, if you feel this way tomorrow, like then you could kill yourself because you're free to do so. You don't have that like conscience. Like it just wasn't there.

I had felt that way and it was like three days later was my attempt. So that was very rapid. And I think that was because I'd been on medication and gotten off. A lot of people say that's more rough on your system to like be on medication and gotten off. A lot of people say that's more rough on your system. To be on medication and be off. Whereas when I'm on medication and I'm on mood stabilizers, which they either help you not hit the ceiling of a manic or they help you not bottom out. So I'm

on one that helps me not bottom out. So I can feel when I'm like entering into a depressive episode. And for me, well, it's interesting because I know when I go up, then I usually am gonna go back down. So when I'm going up, I have a lot of, sometimes I'm like, oh, should we have, here's an exclusive interview or whatever.

There's a lot of risky behavior that people have to fight. I am not exempt from that. Can you say what it is or is that? For me, I was when I was off medication, I was taking, I realized I had a problem when I had gone through an extra large bottle of NyQuil in a week and I wasn't sick. It was just like helping me get through the day. And so is any- Get through the day or night? Get through the day. Really? Doesn't it put you to sleep?

When you're manic, it's kind of like a little safety blanket feeling. So I was, yeah, I was on, I'm allergic to antihistamines and they just kind of suppress my system. And so I was on and off those, just taking them as I pleased for almost two years. So now, so I think some people have kind of noticed I've started to use more language about being sober and being clean. So for me, it's been almost a year and a half. But when I, I know for me that a depressive episode is going to come when I'm like, Oh, I kind of want to do this or that, that would feel therapeutic to me. Then I usually, that's when I text my mentor and go, Oh, I'm having some thoughts. And

then she goes, when's your next therapy session? So random question. Cause I know you love tattoos and you talk about like Kevin Platt and all that stuff. And then you're like, Oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, Oh, I'm going to do this. And then you're like, Oh, I'm going to thoughts. And then she goes, when's your next therapy session? So I'm scared. There's a random question. Cause I know you love tattoos and you talk about like kind of impulsive, like excessive behavior when you're manic. Do you, is your temptation? Do you run out and go to get a bunch of tattoos with your manic or is that, you know, the best part about that is that my artists, I only have like one, I have one person that I see who I love and he's booked out like

six months in advance. So I don't have the luxury. And again, I have that Dave Ramsey PTSD about money spending. So yeah. Is there, you haven't gotten any new ones since your neck, Petty, have you? Or is that? I am halfway done with one of my legs. Oh, okay. Okay. How many do you have? I'm curious. Is that... I have no idea. I don't know. Are you still speaking on sexuality quite a bit? Is that kind of always part of your ministry or not as much?

Yeah. Yes and no. So I just love theology and Bible. And so my hope is to always partner with people specifically through more or less leaning towards the intersection of faith and suffering. So how can we have conversations about that in our church? But a lot of times, I would say probably about 60% of my speaking right now would be on sexuality. And I try to link that with sharing my own story and just saying like, here's what I believe the Bible teaches, but let me tell you how that played out in my life. Unless I think if you're a pastor in a church, it's really wise for you as the pastor to teach with authority what the Bible says as opposed to outsourcing that conversation. Because at the end of the day,

I can't walk with your congregants through what they're wrestling with. I can share my own story, but I think if you're going to say, we are a church that upholds that marriage is between one man and one woman for life, then that needs to come from the person who's going to walk that out. I get brought in a lot to start the conversation, saying, hey, we're going to start a series or really want to dig in. Can you come in and get us, kind of lay a foundation and then they take it from there. I like that. As long as they're, yeah, like you said, it's not just they're gonna ship me in to like be the guy to speak on it and take off

and then they don't do anything with it. But what I love is when churches are like, hey, we're wanting to dive into this and walk with people and make this an ongoing pattern of discipleship. Can you come help us get the conversation going? You spoke at the recent Revoice conference. Let's talk about that. So there's a lot, I mean, the opinions about Revoice are just interesting online when people

describe what it is. They have typically never been to the conference. So what was your perception of Revoice before you went? And then what is it now having been there? Yeah. So I have to say my first perception isn't necessarily about things I've heard about Revoice, more so about me and my own struggles. a while I was like, you know, we don't hold AA meetings in bars for a reason.

So I think there's like some, and that's not just Revoice alone. I've been invited to go be a part of groups of people who are struggling or wrestling with same sex attraction. And my hesitancy has always been, I don't know that this is something specific that I want to bond with people over. And again, I want to say that's not my blanketed conviction for everyone. That's a personal conviction for myself that I've tried to be really, really careful with. But I got asked to, okay, so that's one side. I also though was stunned when I found out

that ReVoice existed, that I was like, there's enough people who have a similar experience to me that there's a conference. Like I just, you feel so alone when your view is that your temptation can still exist as long as you're fighting it and I there's a lot of people that need to hear that. You do not go to Revoice and find people who are like, I love that this exists and I'm a, it's people aren't, when we talk about sin, same sex attracted followers of

Christ are very aware that sin exists in our hearts and minds as much as it exists through action. So I really want some people to hear that and acknowledge that. So there's people who don't like that some people identify as gay or same-sex attracted or would allow themselves to be in ministry with the temptation still being there. And then there's the LGBTQ community, we're affirming community that doesn't like that we cling to a biblical sexual ethic. full of people worshiping together in community who have embodied the same experience you've embodied and struggled through and wrestled with and have felt so many different feelings, it is overwhelming. Yeah, yeah.

It is so overwhelming in the most beautiful way. And there's a lot of, yeah, there's just a lot of perceptions that I've held and walked through with what it means specifically to be a same sex attracted Christian or a gay Christian that was legalistic. How so? that was legalistic. How so? I think specifically because I ended up getting married. I married a man. And so there's a lot of things that just don't naturally, it's just not the life that I'm living.

I'm trying to figure out the best way to say this. Like you walk into Revoice and you're like, these are gay men, right? They're like beautifully groomed. They smell amazing. They're dressed very well. Like there's no mistaking that you're like, this is a conference for LGBTQ people.

And I think I just had this perception that when you say yes to Jesus, not oppressing those things, but I think blending in to the hetero norm, the hetero cis norm. And when I was at Revoice, seeing very obviously gay people worshiping Jesus was a witness. I didn't know that I needed. My husband got to go with me and he said, it's kind of like when it says all tongues, all tribes, all nations,

like we've totally blacked out the LGBTQ community. And this is the first time we're seeing it. Wow. That was really, I think I, I cried probably all day Friday because I was just so unaware of my own ignorance towards that. And also it was like, oh, this is, I feel like before when I've had conversations with LGBTQ kids, especially, it was like, man, they're calling them to Jesus is calling them to give up so much, which is true. But all of a sudden it was like, Oh, this is an incorporation of the non sinful aspects of being LGBTQ. If that makes sense.

Do you get people to trip out when they hear that your same sex attracted and also married to a guy? Like is that, are people like, wait, that's impossible. Or obviously you're not happy or you're not being, you're not being true to yourself for all kinds of, yeah. Okay. I get lots of questions about my sex life, which I'm like, why? Like, do they really, Do they go there? Yes. I get questions about that. And then I get a lot of people who are like,

I'm just holding my breath for when you get divorced. And I'm like, people have good faith. Thank you. Merry Christmas to you too. Well, my mentor always says to me, and she always says it because I need reminding of it so much, is that it's just people either sharing mentor always says to me, and she always says it because I need reminding of it so much, is that it's just people either sharing their biggest fear for myself, which is that they

fear that I am unhappy, or they're projecting their biggest fear for themselves, which is, you know, what if? What if I were to surrender to Jesus and then that would mean that I'm miserable for the rest of my life or whatever, fill in the blank. And hearing that reminder helps me because I think so many times I'm like, why are people so against me? Or like, why do I get so many emails about, you know, the hardest email that I get is, you're the reason why LGBTQ teens are killing themselves. Which isn't something that you can write off,

it's something that you actually need to wrestle with. Because if I believe in Jesus, and I believe he has who he says He is, good theology doesn't cause death. So you actually have to wrestle through those things if you're going to be a responsible practitioner of theology. But it's helpful to remember like this person is just scared and it's for good reason. Yeah. Yeah. That's so sad. I mean, what a thing to say to somebody who wrestles with suicidality like yourself.

I mean, but it's, what's sad is suic sensitive and personal thing for someone to kind of like weaponize that in such a nasty way towards some, you know, that's just, you're using, you don't have, it's, it really irritates me when people do that. You know, you're taking something so incredibly serious and using it in service of an argument against somebody's viewpoint. You know, um, it's kind of like when I hear that, and I hear that a lot, parents with kids that come out as trans, you know, they're told by medical professionals, do you want, you know, an alive son or a dead daughter, as if that's your only two options. Like either you're going to encourage your kid who might be a teenager to transition,

or if you prevent that, you're going to be contributing to their inevitable suicide, which would a horrible and psychologically irresponsible thing to say to a parent. I do think some people do say it in good faith. They do believe the assumption that that is the case, which has just been invalidated by so many studies. But yeah, in fact, I just read through the five most recent studies on youth, trans youth slash youth, rest of gender dysphoria and transitioning and mental health outcomes.

And all five on some levels said transitioning either And then the other thing that I would say is that, you know, I think it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it, what do you say to somebody that's like, wait, you're gay and you're married and how does that, or they don't even know what to say. They're kind of like, like, what's your kind of discipleship education maybe to maybe somebody who's genuinely curious,

like, how does this work? Yeah. Well, I want to say one more thing to what we're just talking about, because I think it's really interesting. And it needs to be drawn out more. There needs to be more research done, but reading through some of Mark Yarhouse's work, and it's like same sex attracted people. So the tension that someone who is affirming, who is personally same sex attracted or gay, lesbian, bi, they have the tension of rubbing up against a non-affirming

viewpoint, perspective, faith. That usually does indicate that they're going to have worse mental health struggles. But what's really interesting is someone who is same-sex attracted, gay, lesbian, bi, who has rubbed up against a non-affirming faith, but then ends up being non-affirming themselves is more likely to have a mental health outlook that's on par with the average person. Oh, interesting. So to me, I'm like, man, how far can you walk that out and going, submitting yourselves to biblical authority is good for your mental health. I think that's, I just think that that's one thing I cannot stop thinking about.

So wait, I want to go back. You're saying people that are Christians and affirm same sex marriage who are in non-affirming, theologically non-affirming environments that typically they experience mental health challenges. Yeah, if they are same-sex attracted themselves, if they identify that way. But if you identify LGBTQ, same-sex attracted, and you end up also being non-affirming. Your mental health is more on par with the average person. Yeah, that makes sense. This is interesting to me.

I'll answer your question. If you want me to. Yeah, go ahead. Usually I just say, yeah, yeah, it's weird. Usually I just say, yeah, yeah, it's weird. I think some people like to use my story to argue, like ex-gay. Which I'm like, no, no. I would never say to someone,

people are like, what's your temptation? My temptation is I still struggle with same sex attraction. And it is unwanted. And if I lived a different life, if I didn't follow Jesus, I would only date women. I am not in my romantic relationship is not forced. I just, I can't imagine living that way. And also, it's unnecessary. There's no part of the Christian life that says to be the best disciple you can be, you need to be married to someone. It's just not necessary. We don't have a good outlook on singleness in ministry. But for me, I fell in love with Austin as a friend first.

I just, we became really good friends and I thought, man, he would be such a great dad. He would be such a fun person to do life with and to do ministry with. But I knew sex is a, it's not everything in marriage, but it's a decent part of marriage. And so I started praying like, Lord, I'm discerning that this is maybe the direction things are moving. If this is what you have for me, like I'm like, it feels irresponsible to step into it without any kind of romantic sexual attraction. Would that be a sign that you would cultivate that in me if this is where I'm supposed to go? And felt, I remember the first time, I remember where I was when I saw Austin for the first time and was like, whoa,

this is weird, like feeling butterflies and like, it's very interesting. And so that's kind of my thing is I'm like, no, I don't. People are like, do you encourage same sex attracted people to pray for marriage? And I'm like, maybe all people should just pray about considering marriage. Like not, I'm so tired of the like, pray for your kid's future spouse. I'm like, what if they don't exist? Then I'm wasting all those prayers. Like, it's just, you know, we should be good stewards of relationship and prayer and considering that that might not be the path God has for us,

rather than this weird obsession with marriage. That's so true. I've thought about that. Yeah, that's praying for the spouse thing. That was the environment I grew up in. That was the number one thing a parent, he makes you pray for your kid's spouse. And now it's like, yeah, if there is a spouse prepared by a kid to be this kind of spouse to that person, but maybe they're not called to that. But you know, most likely they will, but maybe not. And either way they can faithfully follow Jesus and live a flourishing life, whatever calling they have. Well, Brenna, we we've gone up to about an hour and uh, yeah, I just, I want to say again, this book is super, super helpful and engaging and especially somebody that just doesn't,

or maybe tired of kind of Christian knees kind of a memoir type books. I mean, yours is very raw and honest and fascinated that you said you left a lot of other extra raw stuff out because it's, it's raw. It's a, yeah. What kind of person would you say you're writing this book to and who would be the kind of person that would, I mean, I'm sure everybody listening, you'd want to say, yeah, go, go buy it. But yeah, who's that particular kind of person that you really hope ends up reading this book?

Yeah, I wrote it with two people in mind. The first is those who are disillusioned with Christianity, whether they've been inside of it or they've just been watching from the fringes and are like, this is stupid. This is not good news whatsoever. I wanted to talk to those people in the reality of like what they've witnessed

and say this fake shiny God is not real. And also your issues, I've just seen, there's legalism, which is saying your humanity it's not worthy to be here, right? And then there's progressivism, which says, like, we just, the holiness of God doesn't exist. And what would happen if we were met by the God who cares about our humanity,

but who is also holy? Like, what is that reality with? And so I wanted to talk to that person. And then the other people is just leaders who desire to be faithful to Jesus, who are recognizing that these legalistic conversations aren't doing anything, right? Like, if you're not being honest, my small group kids, they're having conversations about abortion and smoking weed. And it's not enough to say like, you can't smoke weed or you shouldn't smoke weed or

smoking weed isn't okay. We actually have to have educated conversations about the nuance of that. And if we're not having them with inside the church, they're going to go have them elsewhere. That's where they're going to be educated. And so we have to be willing to step into some really gnarly conversations because they're real. It is what exists in our brains and specifically young people's brains all of the time. It is not, they're not just sitting there staring at walls wondering like,

oh, I wonder what Bible verse I can read tomorrow morning. Like, no, they're going, my best friend just texted me she's getting an abortion tomorrow, because that's real. Like, that's what's going on. And so I just want to equip leaders to have difficult conversations and to be able to say from an authentic, honest place that Jesus actually cares about those conversations.

Because when we look in the New Testament, those are the kinds of conversations he was having. So, well, I highly encourage people to pick it up again in the book. Can I say that? So Brenna, thanks so much for being on theology. Ah, yet again. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Preston. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.