Theology in the Raw - Sexuality, Church, Celibate Partnerships, My Response to Chris Yuan and Rosaria Butterfield, and How I Handle Criticism: Laurie Krieg

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

Laurie Krieg is the president of Impossible Ministries, a coaching/consulting, teaching, and podcasting ministry with the mission to equip Jesus-followers with a gospel-centered approach to marriage and sexuality. Laurie serves on the Board of Directors for The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender, and is earning a master’s degree from Wheaton Graduate School in Evangelism and Leadership. Laurie and her husband Matt wrote a book called An Impossible Marriage: What Our Mixed-Orientation Marriage Has Taught Us about Love and the Gospel (IVP 2020). They also co-host The Hole in My Heart Podcast, and live in Western Michigan with their three kids. In this conversation, we talk about the legitimacy of celibate partnerships (or committed friendships) and then Laurie digs into my life and asks about how I handle criticism and offers some thoughts about my responses to Christopher Yuan and Rosaria Butterfield and what legitimate concerns they have. Get 10% off your first order of Mitopure by Timeline! USE CODE: Theology https://www.Timeline.com/theology Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Hey friends, do you remember when I had Dr. Lee Camp on the podcast to talk about a Christian political identity? It was episode 1139 and it was a fascinating conversation. Anyway, Lee is one of my favorite Christian writers and thinkers and he also hosts a super engaging podcast called No Small Endeavor. It's kind of like The Old General actually. On No Small Endeavor, Lee will have curious conversations with theologians, philosophers, bestselling authors, all to explore what it means to live a good life.

His diverse range of guests include people like Amy Grant, Tish Harrison Warren, Philip Yancey, Malcolm Gladwell, Eugene Cho, Miroslav Volf, and many others, all asking what it means to live a life worth living. So if you like theology in a raw, or even if you hate theology, you've got to go check out No Small Endeavor on whatever app you use to get your podcasts. Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of theology in a raw. My guest today is the one and only Laurie Krieg, who is the president of Impossible Ministries, a coaching and consulting and teaching and podcast ministry with the mission to equip Jesus followers with a gospel-centered approach to marriage and sexuality.

Lori serves on the board of directors for the Center for Faith, Sexuality, and Gender, and she's earning a master's degree from Wheaton Graduate School in Evangelism and Leadership. Lori and her husband, Matt, co-wrote a book that came out a few years ago called an impossible marriage. What our mixed orientation marriage has taught us about love and the gospel put out by intervarsity press. They also co-host an awesome podcast they can't more highly recommend called the hole in my heart podcast. And Lori and her husband, Matt live in West Michigan with their three kids. So this is a fascinating conversation that went many different directions, largely around

sexuality. We talk about so-called celibate, a covenanted partnerships or there's different terms for that. And then Lori does dig in me a bit, a bit about how I have done in responding to criticism in particular, some of the more recent criticism I received from Rosario, better field and Christopher Yuan. And so it's a really, it's a, it's a, it's, it was just a really raw, free flowing conversation from somebody who I, I just have a lot of respect for. So please welcome back to the show. The one and only Lori Creek. All right, Lori Creek. Welcome back to the Theology in the raw. Thanks Preston. Oh, where

do we, how about this? Let's just start here. I do want to talk. I mean, and as my audience might may or may not know if you're a new listener, maybe you don't know, but like, um, this is my, these are the notes I come into conversations with. I'm holding up a book, none zero notes because I don't, I don't prepare ahead, ahead of time when I'm going to have a conversation with my neighbor. Like I don't see Mike. I got a neighbor Craig out behind me. He's been helping with my irrigation system. He knows my irrigation better than I do. Idaho Idahoans have something in their DNA where they just know how to fix stuff. And they know, they know like irrigation pipes, building, they just know stuff. It's not abnormal in Idaho. I kid you not. This is so people

and I, they were going to crack up at this. So I'm from California. So I'm so, you know, it's not uncommon for the someone's home to be smaller and more run down looking than their shop. I'm serious. Like the shop is like this massive thing. They have like, Oh, I mean, just like a whole like warehouse of tools in there. They might have a boat or two, maybe a Jeep, maybe, you know, some jet skis, maybe some, some snowmobiles. I mean, it's just, and it's I've seen, I've seen them where the shop is like this, like two 2,500 square foot, like decked out and their house is like, you know, 1400 square foot, two bedroom branch house or something like that's not abnormal. You have to fix stuff if you're Idaho. And so anyway,

I saw your shop when I was at your house a few weeks ago, you guys have dirt bikes. Let's talk to your kids about it. You're growing. You're turning Idaho. I built a pole barn out of lodge pole pine trees that I chopped down with my own chainsaw and hauled out of I was looking at with your dirt. Yeah. I built that. Can you believe that? Those, those are trees. I bro. Yeah. That was back in the day. I'm tired of that stuff. Good job, Paul Bunyan. I'm proud of you. Every year we still do. We go up into the woods and we, we, we buy our tags and we go in with you. And we're like, Oh, I'm going to go in with you. And I'm like, Oh, I'm going to go in with you. And I'm like,yan. I'm proud of you. Every year we still do. We go up into the woods and we, we, we buy our tags and we go in and we chop down a quarter of

wood and it's, it's a, my kids are, it's come out later that they do. I thought it was a nice family memory. Hey, we're going to chop wood today. Kids are like, can we not do it like ever again? Can we go be like normal people and turn on the heat anyway, Laurie, why don't you give us a quick bat for those who don't know Laurie Krieg, tell us maybe a brief version of your story. Cause I do want to get into just kind of talking about stuff. Yeah. So vocationally I've been as speaking at the intersection of faith and sexuality similar to Preston for the last 10 years. And I'm looking forward to the conversation and really diving in, hopefully, to what's

changed, what's gotten better, what's gotten worse. But that ministry work began with blogging about my story, which from a very young age, I've experienced attractions toward the same sex and like a good 80s and 90s girl growing up in evangelical moral majority America, I just fragmented that part of me, detached from it and when I feel it I just say no as one does. And then in college, Christian college, my dad was a pastor at the time, I met another woman who felt the same way about me as I did about her. And even though I loved God as much as I knew how, I was like Christian leader girl leading all the things.

I was not the stereotype I had in my head. I ended up in a secret same sex relationship with her and I was baffled as to where I could take this wrestling with my faith and this draw I had toward her. And this was in the early 2000s, the era of what I call quote porn and pancakes, where there's Saturday mornings, where heterosexual men could come and eat pancakes and talk about their porn addictions, which- I've never, I'm sorry, I'm trying not to laugh. Porn and pancakes.

Dude, it was real thing. And there's some people who are, they nod when I say that. It's something like, are you kidding me? But, um, I think my heart for the ministry work I do really developed in that crucible where I was looking for safe spaces, didn't know where to find them, and then also seeing safe spaces for people who wrestled with other versions of broken sexuality. So there was this kind of hypocrisy going on and then a lack of willingness of education, of ability to talk about my version of sexual brokenness. Praise God, I found a therapist in that season because it produced suicidal ideation who came alongside me and didn't pull out Leviticus 18, Romans 1, all the things, the clobber

passages, but she helped me to feel the deeper needs underneath my wants. Maybe we'll talk about some of those desires. I don't know. I'm referencing another podcast you did recently about the epithumia. Who knows? Who knows? But we have, I see, we have these desires to be seen, known, and loved, chosen. And because of the fall we take we filter those needs through our fallen nature and we are all born that way and by that way I mean we naturally because of the fall choose idols instead of God. Yeah. So I think our good our desires we see known loved what our desires are they good are they bad they just are God created us needy and they're filtered through our sin nature and so they

get distorted. And so she taught me to feel those good needs, to be seen, known, and loved and to remove some of those barriers between the need meter of my soul and those good needs in my heart. And I fell in love with Jesus. It did not make me go from gay to straight, but it made me go from feeling enslaved by my sin to experiencing daily surrender and freedom in Christ. So, that's the short version. I started blogging about that, and then I've been speaking at the intersection of faith and sexuality since then. Pete Slauson And you, tell us about your, you and your husband's ministry. You guys have an incredible ministry. Yeah. So, we started a nonprofit in 2015 called Hole in My Heart. It's since turned into more of like freelance work. It was just too much for me with Matt now is a site director,

he's got 20 counselors under him. But when we do ministry work together, he's a mental health licensed therapist and his specialty is sexuality and addiction, marriages. So like all the things people don't want to talk about. It's like his favorite. But I do a lot of the teaching and writing and then he is the, I don't want to say the brains behind the operation. He's more the like peaceful therapy behind the operation. And I love teaming with him both on our podcast and speaking with him. It's great. And writing. Pete Slauson Your podcast. Tell us about your podcast,

because you have incredible guests on and conversations. I mean, it's, yeah. You're so kind. Hole in My Heart, just talking about those good needs to be seen, known, loved, chosen, belong, the Hole in My Heart podcast. And that we talk, I mean, we were talking before we hit record, I've had many of the same people you've had on that are in this conversation, we primarily talk about sexuality,

marriage, gender, but the theme is to talk about how the gospel is good news for everyone, every day. And so we're not only talking about sexuality, but we're not not talking about sexuality. So, it's really fun. We ask every guest their gospel story. And it's so fun to have Ken Boa on, who's written 10,000 theology books. And I'm like, what do you mean you were on acid and God just showed up? Really? Ken Boa was on acid? Yes. I think it was some crazy hippie drugs. God just showed up him and Eldridge and Allender. They were all drug buddies.

I can picture those guys. Oh, Christ. I assumed Eldridge was on acid. Kidding, kidding. But you know what I'm saying? I'm like, wait a minute. So it's really fun to hear everyone's story of finding Jesus. And I mean, I love your story, Preston. It's so fun. And then leaning into their areas of expertise, it's really awesome. Let's see how you and I, I mean, in a sense, you've

been in this conversation for decades because of your own story, but in terms of like helping the church think through it, especially like at a leadership level where, you know, we kind of jumped in, jumped in at the same time, almost almost 10 years ago, 10 years ago. What, what have you seen any shifts changes? I mean, again, you, you and I, we, we both navigate kind of the like, we will get attacked from the maybe more far right. And then also the progressive is like when I, when I spoke at your conference years ago, like you had, you know, protesters that were more progressive Christians that didn't like the fact that you were holding firmly to it, you know, a traditional view of marriage, but then you've made, you've

made conservatives upset. You know, you're not conservative enough for some people. So how have you navigated that over the last 10 years? Have you seen changes in that kind of those kind of like back and forth? Yeah. I think right now I'm getting more attacked. In the early days, it was more the liberal side, like you said. That was really hard to have at certain places, members of my own church, not like me, not like the fact that I existed in the same room as them, but now I will have the more conservative moms, I will say. The joke I keep saying is hell hath no fury like a scared mom. And it's true. They're bathing their fear in anger and rage and it's the more conservative side and I wish we could sit and have a conversation

which I've heard similar hearts of you from you of Let's let's talk about the fear and let's talk about how we can lean in So I'm I've I've personally gotten more pushback recently on my name. I've just gotten used to the liberal pushback but more pushback from the more conservative as well. I don't write and I don't I'll glance at social media every now and then. I don't go fishing for stuff and not, you know, I even on something like Twitter, Twitter is such a stuff. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't

know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't, and I don't, I'll glance at social media every now and then. I don't go fishing for stuff. And I, you know, I, even on something like Twitter, Twitter, such a cesspool, I've muted so many people. So I mean, I, there may, maybe there's all kinds of stuff, just people are still attacking me, but it does seem like the progressives, maybe because early on they thought I was going to become one because I was maybe sounded different than it's just so funny. I mean, from what I talked to by progressive friends who gave me a window into progressive land, like, yeah, here's, here's how people are thinking about you. They just think I've gotten in their words and I don't like this term, but they,

they think I've gotten so conservative, you know, which is funny because I, I feel like I'm getting more attacked from the more conservative side more than again, it's always kind of like it comes in waves, you know, whatever, but like, it seems like it's been steady more on the more fundamental aside and around the language piece. Get this Lori, DA Carson, the founder of the gospel coalition endorsed Greg Coles his book, single gay Christian. That came out in, I think 2019. That was just a few years, but it wasn't big. It was like, here's da Carson. I don't think he would probably endorse it now. I don't know. Maybe it would, but like three or four years ago was like, Hey, so you're, but you're

following Jesus, right? Yeah. Following'm following traditional sexual ethic. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Cool. You're, but like the, the fact that he said gay, it wasn't a big deal just a few years ago. Now, now it's like, yeah, this is the, the main questions I get. Yeah. What is it? What's the cause of that? Do you have any theories? I mean, I think people in some ways I'm like, okay, this is good because I think you and I when we were starting in this field, it was people knew nothing. It was the ABCs and they hadn't thought about it. And so in some ways, I'll go positive first, is that people have thought through at least

what they believe. They have read some things. My concern is like, you know, I joked about hell has no fury like a scared mom. I really think there are some podcasts and books and social media leaders who are feeding the fear and the algorithm loves fear. And so they're like, they're calling themselves gay and they're worshiping at the gay altar of gayness and they're, you know, they're in these celibate gay partnerships, you know, and assuming that everybody's kosher with that. And instead of, I think this is going to be the talk I give everywhere, is you guys, we can't

feel a thing and then go straight to action. We need to feel a thing, take that to God through lament. Then we need to have people speak into it if we need help with the lamenting. Then we need to, what was it again? Oh yeah, forgive our enemies and then ask God for love for our enemies and then ask the Lord, what action do you want me to do? That process, instead of feel a thing, do a thing, and instead doing feel a thing, forgive a person, ask God for love for a person, and then ask Him how we want to do action produces a completely different heart of, toward this entire conversation and anything else controversial, in my opinion.

Also, I would add, I agree with all that, I would also add like understanding something before you refute it. I just see that. That's just such a, and this is people who listen. I mean, I say this all the time, but it's just such a, yeah. Like maybe we can even go here. I don't, again, we can go any direct, but like, yeah. Celebrate gay partnerships. Well, that doesn't seem right. Like marriage between a man and woman and like partner, like, what is that? That seems bad, you know? And maybe it is, maybe it is, but like, what is it? You know, this is, this

is where, um, Greg Coles, our mutual friend, colleague at the center did this whole, he, he, he ran point on this, uh, white paper we wrote on understanding whatever. And there's different terms, even covenanted friendship, committed friendship, celibate partnership. There's lots of different language here. Some of the language I don't really like, I really don't like other language. I'm like, Oh, okay. Well, let me, again, let me under, what do you mean by that? What do you mean by, okay, what about that? What about that? What would he mean? Okay. Okay. I I'm trying to take my Christian worldview to bear on this and like, okay, that maybe this kind of committed friendship, I can't say no, the Bible is against committed friendships, you know, but like any kind of relationship that's

kind of mimicking or trying to look like a marriage, it's not a marriage. I think that's problematic. You know? So anyway, in this paper, um, gray, I said, let's just investigate. What are we even talking about? And so he interviewed several people in these committed friendships, talked to, you know, and, and the paper at the beginning and the end clearly said we are, we are withholding any kind of ethical evaluation. That's not the purpose of this paper. The purpose of this paper is to understand not to refute. It's just trying to say, what is it that we're even talking about? And I even, I made it clear, even in like the edits and stuff. I'm like, Greg, we didn't make it really clear

that we're not morally evaluating. So let's just make sure this is crystal clear in the beginning and the end, but apparently it wasn't clear because people, they read that paper, they just cite the title and they're just like, see Preston's for like romantic cuddling or all this stuff. Like I'm not like, no, I'm just, I'm just trying to admit that is happening in some of these partnerships and, but not all of them. In fact, most of them wouldn't even, I think most of them, I think that might've been only one person's experience. And I'm like, yeah, I, I'm not really okay with that. So what do you think? So what have you thought through? And I don't know, there's because it go by so many different terms, we'll just say, covenanted friendships are committed friends. You know, what are the stuff

we're talking about? What are your thoughts about this? I mean, I've heard different debates around people using like, uh, Jonathan and David as the permanent example. Here's where I'll say I struggle with this. And this is where I think some of our critics are right, is when two people are attracted to each other and they choose to covenant for life together. I'll just tell you what, I couldn't do that. I'm just confused like well then why are it why isn't it in a covenant like that

that specific version I struggle with because I'm like well why aren't you in a covenant relationship with someone you're not attracted to that that to me I'm in my head is danger danger danger, danger. A, it looks like a marriage. B, why it sounds a little like, I'm sorry, bear with me. Twilight. But where like, I only read the first book and I was like, oh my gosh, this is the most codependent relationship I've ever read about my entire life.

But is that they're living in this tension, this like sexual romantic tension. And I'm like, how the heck are you doing that? I don't know how you're surviving. And so when people covenant to like hang out in that tension for a long time, I think that's unwise. And I've seen people anecdotally in our field where that doesn't last as far as holiness, our field where that doesn't last as far as holiness, I would say. But when I think about myself as a, if I was a single person, I mean, friendships can feel so very fluid. And I relate to the feeling and the desire to want like, you know, what Peter Volk is

doing out in Nashville Family of Brothers, like having a brothers that he's like, hey, we're in this together. And it's not just one other person which can mimic marriage, in my opinion. But what I wish is that the church would be a place where we are committed to one another and that with the willingness to say, God may call you out to go like Paul overseas. That's where I get a little worried is when we're like, no, we have to be together, but what if God calls you to go somewhere else in a friendship? I'm just curious, is that really biblical that you have to stay in that covenant? So I wish the church was more covenantal to hit that family need, because that's what I think the church should be for married and single people.

And then I see some danger in certain versions of celibate partnerships. This episode is brought to you by Mitopure by Timeline. Timeline is a Swiss-based life science company and is a global leader in Urolithian A research. Okay, so I've recently been learning about Urolithian A. Urolithian A is a powerful postbiotic that is nearly impossible to get just from your diet alone. And Mitopure is the first product to offer a precise dose

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Go check it out. Hey friends, my book, Exiles, The Church in the Shadow of Empire is out now. I am so excited and a bit nervous about the release of this book. This is a topic I've been thinking about for many, many years and finally put pen to paper to write out all my thoughts. Specifically, I'm addressing the question, what is a Christian political identity? As members of Christ's global, multi-ethnic, upside-down kingdom scattered across the nations, how should we as members of that kingdom think through and interact with the various nations

that we are living under? So the book is basically a biblical theology of a Christian political identity. We look at the nation of Israel, we look at the exile of Israel, we look at several parts of the New Testament, the life and teaching of Jesus, several passages in the book of Acts, the letters of Paul, do a deep dive into 1 Peter and the book of Revelation, and then explore some contemporary points of application. So I would highly encourage you to check out my book, Exiles, and would love to hear what you think, whether it's, whether you hate the book or love it or still think it through it.

I'd love to hear what you think by dropping a review on Amazon or I don't know, post a blog, just, you know, ripping at the shreds. I don't really care. I would love for you to just wrestle with this really important topic in this really volatile political season that we're living in. What, what, okay. Going back to, um, let me finish my sentence. I was gonna say, I certainly see rangers in some of the, especially some of the ones we even examine like that. Again, I don't, if people are trying to mimic a marriage, make it look like a marriage using marital or even sexual language, I don't like the language of partnership because in 21st century

America, if I introduce somebody and said, hi, this is my partner, they're going to, it assumes it has a romantic and sexual connotation. So even if it doesn't, even if it doesn't involve that, then why use language that conveys that to me? That's just, it's, it's unclear and unwise. What about, so you said if you're attracted to each other, but just because somebody might be two people might be same sex attracted, doesn't necessarily if you're attracted to each other, but just because somebody might be two people might be same sex attracted, doesn't necessarily mean they're attracted to each other in the same sense that I can be opposite sex attracted, but there's probably a good number of females

that I could be in a really close relationship. And at least from my vantage, I'm like, nothing's going to happen here. You know, like, yeah. What are your thoughts on that? I'm thinking out loud. I'm not saying it. I'm not even pushing back necessarily. Same sex attracted, but not attracted to each other. Same sex attracted, but not attracted. Like I like I'm attracted to 4 billion females in the, in the sense that I'm opposite sex attracted, but that doesn't mean probably most of them. I'm not, I wouldn't be like, it wouldn't be a temptation for me. You know, Again, I, I am trying to put on my like,

I'm single thinking cap, I've been married over 15 years now and so I don't have quite that, I wanna be able to have that empathy. The question I would have, if I was having a one-on-one coaching conversation with someone who was asking me this is I would say, how are you viewing this person? Are you putting all your

relational hope, friendship needs on this one person? Because that to me, like even if sex, like take sexual attraction out of it, that rings of, we could say the word codependency, we could say the word relational idolatry, we could say unhealth because there is not one person, even if you're married, Matt cannot carry the weight of me. And so that's, I struggle. I would ask those relational questions of them is how much are you putting your hope, your eggs in one basket?

Or is this just a person you're like, we're side by side, we're doing life together. I just, I feel it's unhealthy when it's just one person, because in marriage it's not one plus one equals two, it's one plus one equals one. It's not codependent, it's interdependent. So I struggle when it's one plus one in a covenant because that's one plus one equals two and the temptation toward relational idolatry or codependency for me, that would be high. I didn't think about that. That's, I haven't thought about it from that angle. What about, and again, this, there's again, there's diversity within this, these array of different kinds of relationships. Some would, would describe their own relationship as exclusive. Like two people are in a committed

relationship, a non-sexual, non-romantic say, say they're not even using Merrill language. They may be, you know, we're in a committed friendship. Okay. So pretty, pretty neutral language, but if it's exclusive, does that fit kind of biblical definition of, of friendship? This is something where Rebecca McLaughlin pushed back on me. It was brilliant on stage. We're speaking on stage together in a, in a, like a panel or something. And we're talking about this. And I kind of gave response and she turned to me right away on that stage in front of all these people. She's like, but it can't, it shouldn't be exclusive. Like that's not, that's, that's only a marriage can be exclusive. I thought like, well, I was like, let it can't, it shouldn't be exclusive. Like that's not, that's, that's only a marriage can be exclusive. And I thought like, well, I was like, let me think about that. Cause

if I, if someone, if someone is going to say, okay, show me in the Bible where a committed friendship can't be exclusive, like where, where would I go for that? So the one hand I'm thinking like, isn't that just, is that kind of mimicking a marriage? But then it's like, well, how would I biblically argue against a one-on-one exclusive friendship? Meaning there's a particular kind of relationship here that exists between these two people while they might have other friends, but that the commitment doesn't, the same level of commitment doesn't extend to other friends. What do you think about this?

Help me think through this. I have not done, like I didn't come prepared in my own notes about talk about self-depreciation. I've got a couple words now on my page. But I just think about, I'm putting my single person cap on, but I'm even just my Lori, my right now. If I had a friend come to me right now and be like, Laurie, I'm going to be your exclusive friend. I would hit the roof with panic because I don't have in me the capacity to meet all the relational needs. I'm thinking of a CS Lewis quote that I'm going to butcher, but it was like when one of his friends died, he said, true friendship delights to include others. A sign of unhealthy friendship is that it is exclusive.

That is a sign of relational idolatry or codependency. What Lewis said is he was saying that when different version of friends of his come came into his sphere. He said they each drew out different parts of him that only that person with him could. So that's I think such the beauty of friendship where you know, you might have two or three like a stool to sit on that are my closest friends and then it branches out from there. But from what I've studied about codependency and relational idolatry to say you are mine and is a warning sign for unhealth, in my opinion, and what

I've studied. What can we, from David and Jonathan, we can draw that they had a unique, let's just say, best friend relationship, but we don't really know that it was like exclusive. We don't even know if it was like Covenanted for life. Even if, even if they, well, they were best friends until, you know, Jonathan got killed, but we don't know if they had that kind of verbalized up for, you know, so there's a lot of unknowns surrounding that relationship. Um, at the very minimum we can say, gosh, they had, they, they were super tight, best know, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. But I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point.

I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point.

I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point.

I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I if there's a language of covenant that is used to describe the relationship. I can't, I don't know, survey for Samuel to see, but... But is that, that's not prescriptive, like that's descriptive of the time, like in that unique scenario with his murderous dad and like, hey bro, I've got you, we're in this. And, you know, I heard you on the podcast when you're reflecting on some of Christopher Yuan's thoughts about your work, you were saying like that in that particular scenario, like we

can learn from the depth of friendship. And I think the cry for committed friendships is, to me, symptomatic of we haven't gotten it right in the church yet. We are not brothers and sisters in Christ. We are not I'm here for you. So I think I don't know if David and Jonathan that we can extrapolate that for all time. But I do think there's something to learn from the intimacy between men. Yeah. And then also the cry that I'm hearing from my single friends who are asking for these covenant friendships to me is symptomatic of a cry for a church to be committed and to be family to be the family of God. God promised. Ooh, good stuff, Lori. I, yeah, we need to maybe put a tag on it. I, I, I do want to keep thinking. I want to keep thinking through it. Um, I just don't,

no, I don't. Yeah. I guess I'm just thinking like, why, why do I need to think through this? You know, part of it's because I, you know, I do get pastors asking me, what do you think about this? And people that have maybe people with a church that are in a committed, let's just say friendship again. Um, yeah. And I kind of do this with them. I like, what do you think about this? And people that have maybe people with a church that are in a committed, let's just say friendship again. Yeah. And I kind of do this with them. I like, well, let's talk about this. My, my, my clear line that I think shouldn't be crossed is they shouldn't be romantic and they shouldn't be, they shouldn't give the impression that it's a marital. They shouldn't mimic a marriage in ways that only a marriage should be a marriage.

Again, using language of partnership, I think is problematic. And even doing marital, I don't know, like, but I just always think, cause I live in the pushback, right? And nobody, I open my mouth, people, I got five people waiting to push back on everything I say. So I'm always like, okay, how would I, you know, like, cause, cause then people would say, okay, show me in the Bible where they can't be committed or friends can't be committed. Show me in the Bible where two people can't say, share a house payment together. You're fine with two friends sharing rent together. What they can't share mortgage. Like where's the biblical distinction between rent and mortgage? You know, like it's like, yeah,

that's okay. Yeah. I don't want to. And this is where a lot of this is a little bit gray where I'm like, I don't, from my vantage point, this seems a little unwise, but I can't jump in without a Bible passage, you know, to say, I think you're in sin, you know, whereas there are some things where I'm like, here's clear. Here's where I think I had, do you have more, there is more biblical clarity on some of these. Okay. But picture that scenario. I liked that one. Two friends sharing a mortgage. I'm like, that seemed, I was like, man, again, putting my single person thinking cap on, I'm like, that seems really viable. I probably would like that. But then picture those people in

whatever friendship they're in, besties, let's just say, you know, picture them in a healthy church community, a healthy church community that is like mama XYZ from the church, she's helping them find a house and it's not in like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you guys are getting married. It's like a man, isn't this awesome because we're about the kingdom of God as a collective. Like I just think sometimes these conversations

can get so in the weeds. And then I'm sitting here with my little evangelist mind and heart now where I'm like, we're missing the main point. Like, we're, we're obsessing, but I'm just saying that could work, especially if they're in a healthy church community that is about the Missio Day. Then I'm like, okay, then this conversation makes more sense when it's not just about like, Oh my gosh, I'm so lonely. I need a friend. And it's all about you. I'm sorry. It's got to be about the kingdom of God and is what you're doing, advancing the kingdom of God. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I've got three friends. I can think of them on mine here in some kind

of, uh, committed friendship. I I'm not even sure the language they would all use. They might differ on stuff. Um, and I don't, I, some, some are more distant friends, um, who I, you know, really respect. And I think they have, they're all three that I'm thinking of very wide, very, very biblically minded solid believers, you know? And on mission, like you, like you would, like sat down and again, these are more distant friends. I don't know if we hang out all the time, but when I have heard them describe their relationship, it is more on the end of, it doesn't feel like it's mimicking America. One guy, it's more, he's just, he has the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, more on the end of, it doesn't feel like it's mimicking a marriage. One guy is it's more, he's just, he has the, the, the committed friendship is a straight married guy. He's married to a woman. So it's almost like he's like the best friend of the husband and wherever the, wherever the marriage goes, he's invited to kind of go with them. Not just maybe, maybe live in their house or maybe, maybe just live next to them. But like we're, we're kind of in this together. But then I, I know, I know other married couples that haven't a best friend who's not gay. He was same thing. Like, yeah, this person, he just comes with us. He's he's, it's not, it's not a throuple. It's not like it's a, it's not, it's not mimicking some kind of

threesome marriage or whatever. It's just like, yeah, this is the best friend that kind of comes with us where we go. And I'm like, yeah, I, I, I don't, I don't see anything wrong with that. You know, so that's a world of story and we can move on. But, um, when we talk about these things, committed, Covenant did friendships, sell the partnerships, whatever, like there is a wide diversity of what we're even talking about. And as we understand before we refute, I think that's the number one thing to understand. We can't And as we understand before we refute, I think that's the number one thing to understand. We can't just say we're, we can't, we're not just talking about some monolithic thing and then just say, yeah, I don't like that. It's like, what is, what is the, that we're talking about like eight to 10. I think Greg even

documented like kind of eight to 10 or whatever different kinds of relationships. And some might be, yeah, I think this is kind of crossing the line. Others may not be so good stuff. Let's move on. What else do you want to talk about? Lori? Well, I want to hear, what do you, I want to hear some of your reflections on the last 10 years for you. And then do you have you thought any more about like pushback you've gotten from like Christopher you on, I don't like naming names either, but if it's so public and it's already like, especially as people have called me out named to me, then I have no problem kind of addressing the person that named me. So, and with all three, well, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you,

you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. But I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing.

I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing.

I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing.

I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think and never heard anything back. This is probably at the time of this release, it'll be, it had been like three months. So I think most people probably know what you're referring to the base Rosario. A big one was on her Liberty convocation. She had labeled me, re voice and crew is all heretical. And then she listed the kind of four reasons why three of the four reasons why we're not an accurate summary of what I believe. One of them was fun. Excited. I brought up your name in my response. One of them was, you know, Preston believes that anybody who is gay must live a sellable life. I'm like, I literally have on the board, a same sex attracted person named Laurie Creek, who is married to a happily married to a man

for 15 years. So I don't know how that slipped through the cracks. If I actually believe what she said. So anyway, I long story short, I I'm really not bothered by disagreement. I, I, I try the strength. I try to make the strength of my conviction be matched by the depth of my study. So if I firmly believe something like I'm going to feel like I've thought through this very well and I'm willing to, yeah, if you, if you don't agree, then supply a counter argument to all my arguments, supply a better interpretation, whatever. I'm fine with that. The misrepresentation though, seems to have increased over the last two years, especially 12 months where people are accusing me of things. Like I don't, I'm like looking

around like, who are you talking about? I never said that. Like, where did you get that from? So the lack of either ability or desire to understand before you refute on their end has become a little, um, interesting, no uninteresting actually to me. So, um, that's where I'm at. if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that.

I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not sure if I'm I'll throw it back to you. The one thing that strikes me as a little odd is like a lot of the criticism from the right are coming from like what I would consider a sitter, a more fundamentalist, like for lack of better terms, like, like a more of a John MacArthur, even like a Doug Wilson kind of, you know, right politically right-wing like

daily wire, you know, like that's a brand of evangelicalism that either I left or they kicked me out two decades ago. So they're like, they're almost kachik me from the perspective of you're departing from where we are. I'm like, that happened in like 2007. Like, I don't know. So that's what's all, I mean, back when I wrote a book on nonviolence or that's when I was kind of like people like, Ooh, you're not one of us. I'm like, that's fine. I love Jesus. I think you love Jesus. We're maybe have just a different brand of evangelical the way we go about it. I'm much more ecumenical. I have egalitarian friends, you know? So a better couple older Thursday. Yeah. But I just, I swim in broader. So that maybe that maybe you can help me understand. Like, so I'm like, why, why, why it'd be like getting an email from John McCarter saying, Hey, I

think you're starting to get drift a little bit. I'm like that your sense of be drifted happened like two decades. Why? Why now? Why are you? So do you have, do you have any thoughts on that? Like why? Why? Well, I want to ask you a hard question in a minute, but, well, okay. I'll just say why. I think that there used to be maybe more of a center. We rode on the coattails of moral majority as much as we roll our eyes at it. The world, the culture was anti-gay, was anti all these things. We were known for what we were against, but the culture was that. And then now the culture is more extreme.

It's more fundamentalist and then it's more more liberal. And so I feel like there's not the cultural ethos of like the 90s, which was just. I don't even want to start saying words about it, but everyone was kind of the same vanilla Christian. It felt like what I'm not about to speak for, how the black church felt in the 90s or anything like that. But in my experience in the 90s, everyone was like, seemed pretty vanilla. But now it's, we got the tradwife content, we've got, you know, then the, let's torch the patriarchy

content, but there's not really the middle from which we all kind of judged each other and kind of didn't really stray from. is in the show notes. You can support the show for as little as five bucks a month. And in doing so, you get access to all kinds of different premium content. And most of all, you just get access to the theology in the raw community. We have all kinds of awesome chats and messages back and forth. And it just, it means the world to us

that you support the show. As the show has grown, so have all the expenses and all the work that goes into pulling it off. So again, if you would like to support the show, you can go to patreon.com forward slash theology raw. And I just want to thank my, uh, the people that are already supporting the show. Thank you so much for keeping this show, not only going, but also thriving. So patreon.com forward slash theology and rock. Can I ask you any thoughts on that? Then I'll ask you a heart question.

No, that makes sense. Yeah. No, that's good. Yeah. I'm here. Yeah. For the heart question. So, okay. I hear you, you know, on the podcast where you were reflecting about, you know, Christopher Yuan's pushback, you're like, critique for me is like a Tuesday. I know that's true. I'm sure that's true. But then I just want to know how do you process pushback? Because if I when I encounter real life people out there, including myself, I can get used to the pushback. But I don't want to get callous. Yeah. And then be I think there is actually a quiet middle. We just talked about the fundies and the torch, the patriarchies, right? Which whatever, it's not a comment on the

patriarchy. I'm just saying there's a quiet middle because we don't know how to process the pushback when we say any sentences. So can you talk at all about a heart level of how do you process the pushback and what could we teach people today? That's good. Thank you for that question. And yeah, I'm getting this more and more people are, you know, who asked me this is Max Locato.

He's like, how do you, Max Locato. Isn't he amazing? He's, yeah, he asked, he's like, you get hit I get a hug? Tell me I'm special. Let's read that book. I, here's my, I'm not good at self assessment. Okay. And you can ask my, we can ask Chris about this. Like, look, I'm not good at self assessment.

I'm not good at self assessment. I'm not good at self assessment. I'm not good at self assessment. I'm not good at self assessment. I'm not good at self assessment. I'm not good at self assessment. I'm not good at self assessment. I'm not good at self assessment.

I'm not good at self assessment. I'm not good at self assessment. I'm not good at self assessment. I'm not good at self assessment. I'm not good at self assessment. I'm not good at self assessment. Okay. And you can ask my, we can ask Chris about this. Like, like, I was like, can we get Chris on this call? Yeah. Yeah. One of the worst persons understanding Preston's feelings is Preston. So here's my best analysis is I do think I have a natural resilience built into me that stuff, some stuff really bothers me. There's a lot of stuff just doesn't like I'm the kid who went through a divorce at 10 years old and it wasn't a big, it wasn't even a big dig. It was kind of like, okay, every therapist listening just went, Oh, I've gone to therapy. No, I've gone to therapy, extensive

there. And they're like, I think you're good. Like, yeah. Like you, you're not pushing it under. It's not like you're ex it's going to explode in anger and a road rage on the four or five or something. You know, like, yeah, I, I, I think when it's two dimensional criticism, explain that to it's not, it's not, I'm not face to face with an embodied person that I have a relationship with because like when my wife and I, when, when we fight, not that we ever do that, you know, like, Oh, that hurt. Oh yeah. That or by, or if I did something where I disappointed one of my kids or something, I really, and they're like, dad, and if maybe they critique me on something,

Oh my gosh, it just tears me up. And I have, I have a, a big part of me that has righteous indignation over when I see people being, especially innocent people being victimized or people just getting things wrong sometimes. So I'm not just this Enneagram nine floating through whatever like, no, I get enraged about certain things. But when it's like social media, people that I don like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like as weird and maybe it's cynicism. I'm not saying it's health. Nothing I'm saying is like good or whatever. I'm just being honest. Like this is just real life. It can be kind of entertaining sometimes. Like there was one comment, see I'm laughing. I get these one star reviews of my podcast. One person said Preston so open-minded that his brain fell out or something. I was like, that's good. No, that's good. It's, it's, it's people that say sprinkle.

Is that your real name or do you own a donut shop? I'm like, that's so unoriginal. Like, come on. Like I almost get mad. Like, can you have an original creative thought? Like if you're going to rip on me, like be creative, entertain me or something. You know? So like, I, I, it is the misrepresentation that I have. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I don't people I said, have you lost like follow? Have you lost supporters? Have you lost them? Like, not as if anything, I've gained it. Like this is why it's almost like free promo because whenever people misrepresent me, the people who actually read my books and know it's like, what was that? Like that's I've read press and I'm talking about, he doesn't say that, you know? And so it almost galvanized is more support. I fear though that as much as that might feel good, that my quote unquote base is like rallying around I'm like, this is fostering more ironclad tribalism.

And this is where I want my followers to extend. I even hate that term followed, but whatever, um, extend lots of grace and understanding and human humanization toward even people that wrongly believe in the truth. And I think that's where I want my followers to extend. hate that term followed, but whatever, extend lots of grace and understanding and human humanization toward even people that wrongly criticize me. So what do you think about that? Can you, you're, you're married to a counselor. You are a counselor. I mean, well, how's that sound? What, what do I need to be doing differently or better? Or am I going to explode in some

road rage down the road? No, I don't. I don't see that. Like I, I'm so, I can be overly sensitive, but I'm pretty sensitive to like low grade anger if that's like in a room. And I don't sense that when I, when I'm with you, I don't feel like you're going to explode. I just made the comment about when you were 10, I was like, Oh, is that the way he coped, you know? But we all do, whether that's yes or no, we all, our childhoods, we're the boot camp where we learned how to be people.

That's just facts of life. But when I hear what you're saying, I think another question I have, look at how the tables have turned. I love it, I love it. I'll put it up in the book, go for it. Heart checkup. I love it. I love it. I'll put it up in a book. Go for it. A heart checkup. I guess I'm curious, how does the pushback, what's that do with your

relationship with God? Because I know for me, it's always, it makes me introspect. So, I'm just curious, what does that do for you with your walk with the Lord? Oh, that's a good question. As basic of a of a question that I don't know if I've actually thought about it from that angle. I don't know. I don't know. The way you framed it, it makes me almost more fired up about the kingdom of God doing the work, diving in, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be

like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm going to be like, Oh, I feel like I'm, I'm like, ah, I feel that. You know, I do. But then it's like, Oh, you're just playing the martyr. You think you're like Jesus. Okay. Let's we'll just silence them. The mean, those voices for a second, but like truly, like I, I just know, and I don't get the pushback you get Preston. I don't, but I know for me, like, yes, first Peter too. I listened to it on, you know, with a rap beat behind it. And then it's just over and over, like, just like, so I guess talk more about that. Like, I'm not saying you're playing the martyr part.

No one is martyr here, but there is pushback that hurts. And I know the people listening get pushback, Preston, not even that you get. And then we go silent. And that's my heart is people listening get. And then we go silent. And that's my heart is people listening is let's not go silent. So what do you, how does that cultivate intimacy with God? I guess because I do believe that God, we experience God in, in, in experiencing the

things God and Christ experienced, including false accusations, suffering, discouragement, sleepless nights, long nights in prayer. You're doing that? Like that, it drives you to that? No. See, that's the thing. I don't think it, it doesn't drive me to like pray more. This is what's bad.

That should, but I, the only thing, and that's where I wish, I wish it did drive me to more, a deeper intimacy with God on a real raw one-to-one level. And I can't say it live, it sounds spiritual if it did, but it does drive me to, and this is, I'm so analytical, this is a thing of hyper-rational, which might even be a response, going back to like, how do I handle it? Because I'm so obnoxiously rational, that's just over, it's like, well, that doesn't make sense. That's not factually correct. So, I don't feel it because it's like, well, that's not legitimate. So, why would I feel it?

But unfortunately, yeah, even in terms of relationship with God, it still isn't that rational like I read the passages and God went through stuff like this. And so in a subtle way, maybe I feel like I do find satisfaction in experiencing glimpses of Christ's life on earth that I wouldn't have experienced had I not gone through these accusations and false accusations and criticism and stuff.

So that's the money. That's it. It is a thank you. Yeah. It is a unique time because pre social media or internet, like you just public figures, didn't they, they would get somebody maybe writing a news news article or something or a book review in a peer review journal, you know, like, but here anybody can kind of tag me on something and just like, Hey, you never responded to my critique 10 weeks ago on Twitter. You know, it's like, but just that they have access, you know, like that's just, that's it. Humans haven't had to like experience that. And we just don't have the emotional capacity to bear all that. That's why I try to spend as least amount of time on Twitter. And I just, I'll just meet people, meet people for fun.

Or sometimes I'll, this is okay. This is, see, this is where, this is where my cynicism gets in every now and then I will, I will say something a little bit obnoxious on Twitter, just so people can kind of jump out of the woodwork and say obnoxious things back so that I can find people to mute. I just need to clean the cloud. And like, you know, I'm not muted. But it's so fun because I don't know their music. I know, but I got to entertain myself somehow with this stuff. This, I guess you do. This is not prescriptive, this is descriptive. I'm not saying this is prescriptive. No, yeah, that's right. That's right.

Well, and then to heal though, like I know you guys have increasingly gotten intentional about like just rhythms and practices of getting away and getting quiet. Do you mute everything then? Yeah, we did travel a lot as a family. So I'm actually going to be out of the country here in the next, for about almost six weeks. Um, and physically being out of the country, even though we have access to email is we just, we just disconnect, you know, disconnect, disconnect. Yeah.

And honestly, like I, I, as much as people out there know me as like, yeah, write books, do a podcast, public figure, the overwhelming majority of my day is like, I work from home. I hang out with my kids. I just played in a father, son soccer game and I don't play soccer. My kid, my son does. And so we did that. And then Monday nights, I mean, my son played pool. My wife has a Bible study where she helped disciples like five or six college girls. And then we have people over for dinner a lot. And so we just live such a normal embodied life that all the noise out there is really a small compartment of my weekly rhythm.

Even though people out there feel like I'm just sitting there staring at criticism all day. I'm like playing soccer and I'm like all sore right now. Cause I don't play soccer. My son scored two goals on me and I was, you know, so it's baseball season. So I, I get more upset when the Dodgers lose and probably when I face criticism, you, I, you listened to that response I gave and you're in similar where, and you know, you, you've talked with Christopher and Rosario. You've had a podcast. Do you have any thoughts from a, yeah, you're, you're my, you're my board member. So give me, give me some feedback.

I feel like this has been a, this has been a board member heart. I know. I think I'm grieved because I, is it the Colossians verse where Paul is like, stop having meaningless fights over words, but they will destroy people who listen to them. Like I just, I grieve that the word battles that some of us are getting dragged into or caught in, it's distracting from lost sheep. I really get discouraged by that. Like, why are we having these meaningless fights over words when there's people who we agree actually on

so much and there's people who are dying for the gospel. So that's my grief. And then I'm concerned about just the uptick in the angerometer. It's concerning to me just across the board, but specifically in some of that feedback. Then like you, I want to learn from some of it. I listened to some of what Rosaria said at that Liberty Talk, and then I listened to your reflections on Christopher's words toward you and and they named named me I think there's it would be worth a real sit-down conversation here's where I'll say I

can agree with them yeah on some other things one thing Rosaria said, I don't know if it was in the Liberty talk, but she said that some in the world who identify as LGBTQ or same-sex attracted, probably the side B people in their world, which is a category I don't love either. Side B? But, yeah, I don't love the category. But she said, some people hold onto the gay label out of covetousness, she said. And I actually, at first I wanna be like,

what, you don't know us? Or you don't know this world, and I don't know where I align. I'll take whatever label that will help me get me in the door as far as preaching the gospel. In my head, I identify as someone who experiences attractions to the same sex or not straight or something. But I think that was some fair feedback for myself to even look at is, Lori, are you gripping that word or gripping this world or gripping this culture, this ideology out of this, I want what I can't have and I'm just going to stare at it?

Because if any of us are doing that with anything, that is idolatry and that is covetousness and we need to repent. But if we're using the language of gay to just describe our experience, or using it as a missional tool in order to get us into the doorway to preach the gospel, while it being still true to our experience, I don't know. I think that that was, I think we need to think about that. I hundred percent agree. And this is wicked. Let's just spend time praising Rosaria Butterfield. I, I, I, I, I, I, her concern for the, for a gay identity that is an, and I'm going to

use a fancy phrase that I think she would appreciate, not that she's going to listen to this, but an ontologically thick description of one's humanity. I agree with that critique, especially when it comes to teenagers where they're like, they might experience something in emotion. They might whatever they might have an, had an experience and also like, am I gay? Almost like it's a separate category of humanity that one might be and didn't even know it. It's you watch the office. Are you allowed to admit that publicly if you do? When, when Andy, when Andy was like Oscar, am I gay?

And like, and then he gives a description of like, well, Brad Pitt, you know, was moving in on me. I'd resist at first, but that angst of like, he's like, am I gay? Like I thought I knew myself this whole time, rather than like sexuality is complex. It's, it can be fluid. They're social, we're social beans and it's, it's, it's not this fundamental sub. It's not like there's like, you know, people being born straight, straight, straight, gay, straight, gay, like these like ontologically boxed in categories. Like I just said, I think that's wrong on a scientific level. A theology of like a robust theological anthropology. I think it's not helpful. So I, her concerns, I'm like, I shared those. I just don't think everybody uses the term

gay means that, you know? And certainly not everybody in the, well, almost at side B and those quote unquote side B world, not everybody uses them. Gabe is using it as this is my ultimate identity. Like that was some of the critiques. Chris like, Hey, he's not your ultimate identity. I'm like, if you're committed to lifelong celibacy by definition, being gay is not your ultimate identity. It was, you wouldn't be doing that. So I really, I just think the language is, is also flexible and people use it and I wouldn't understand what people mean by the term. But in terms of that concern about that ontological, that thick ontological description, I, I, I a hundred percent, I agree with those concerns.

Well, I think just like the self-evaluation. So even if the posture and the way it's maybe going about isn't ideal, it wouldn't be kind. I wouldn't put it in kindness. I think as someone who does experience attractions to the same sex, I don't want my first reaction to be knee jerk, no, oh, I know who's saying this, so I'm not listening at all. Like that's, you're fighting it, I'm fighting it, but I gotta start in me. And then I need to say, okay, what did,

is there anything of this that I can take, which you, you know, you modeled that so often and well. But then for me, when I was just, when she said the covetous thing, I need, immediately I'm like, I'm not gonna listen. Then I was like, Lori, is there anything in your life that you are staring at? Because that is distracting you from more receiving of the love of God and more surrender so you can receive more of the love of God. And that's keeping you from this advancing the kingdom of God thing. So that's where I was like, you know, I appreciate

that. I don't appreciate maybe the way it's gone about. I think that could have been very different with a different heart and tone. But that's something, as I reflect on the last 10 years and this current battle you're in and this pushback that we're in, really not against flesh and blood, but I'm like, well, I'm at least going to think about that. Thank you, Rosaria. Yeah, that, but I'm like, well, I'm at least going to think about that. Thank you, Rosaria. That's good. Real quick, I do have a question for you.

So I typically don't publicly respond to criticism and stuff. I mean, that would be a full-time job. And I just, like you said, I want to do constructive work, focus on all the stuff that we're doing and not just get, because it can be such a time waster. But every now and then I feel like, okay, this is big enough. It's, it's, people are confused and stuff. Okay. I need to respond to this. Do you think I shouldn't really respond to anybody for a while or what would be your advice to this? Like, Oh my gosh, let's take this to the board meeting. But also, no, I, I don't know Preston. See, that's where I want to pray with you. And like, I'm actually not mad

that people are listening to this. But like, is it, like, what's your motivation? Is it to draw out lies and to promote truth and to, in some ways, keep burning coals, but not do that in a, actually actually I'm trying to burn you away. Like similar to how you want people to care for you, to think caringly about the other person, I guess, and you want to not evaluate their heart for them.

I guess I don't really wanna evaluate your heart for you. It's like, what's your motivation? Is it to be like, forget you or to protect your reputation like that? That's what I would say is to do some soul work, but maybe you know right now, like what's the motivation primary motivation is not, it wasn't even really to respond to this case. It was Christopher Yuan and, and Alyssa, Alyssa Childers. I don't, when people have't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I just, in this case, there was enough people that friends are friends of friends, even a mutual friend of ours. I'll leave a name list is like, I've got elders at our church that used to use your stuff. And now they're coming to me saying, should we not use this stuff anymore? Cause someone so say he's a heretic and I'm like, I don't know. I'm not going to use it anymore. I'm just going to use it. I'm going to use it. I'm going to use it. I'm going to use it. I'm going to use it. I'm going to use it. I'm going to use it. I'm going to use it like, I've got elders at our church that used to use your stuff. And now they're coming to me saying, should we not use this stuff anymore? Cause someone so say he's a heretic and I didn't know he was a

heretic. So I'm like, Oh, there's enough, there's enough people being influenced by this from the secondhand information that putting a public response was, I think helpful that people can point people to you and say, no, okay, actually go listen to this pressing gives clarity. If you still disagree with what he says, then that's fine, but at least know what he actually believes. That was my main motivation. And I appreciate that motivation because I will get, to be honest, I'll get pushed back now because I'm in relationship to you. And so I like, but I will, I'll take it if that's like, he was silent before the shearers,

like if that's what God's calling. But in some ways, I think, and again, I can only hear the outside, you and the Holy Spirit know the inside of you. The way you're going about it with gentleness and not trying to set them up as a, as a straw man and inviting conversation and pointing out areas that you value, I think can, can model in my opinion, in this moment, healthy disagreement.

Here's another small, this is small motivation and you, I want honest feedback and then I know we got to go. Um, if you think this is good or bad and I, you're what I love about I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, no, just because you have a platform doesn't mean you just get to spread falsehoods about me. So no, every time you do that, this is my, I'm going to call it out. I'm going to say, no, you don't get to do that.

You don't get to just misrepresent people in front of thousands of people and get away with it. So I'm like, no, I'm going to call it out. I'm going to say, no, you don't get to do that. You don't get to just misrepresent people in front of thousands of people and get away with it. So I'm like, no, I'm going to call it out. I'm going to say, no, you don't get to do that.

You don't get to do that. You don't get to just misrepresent people in front of thousands of people and get away with it. So every time you do that, I'm going to call it out. Now, realistically, every time I'm not just cause for time sake, but I'm like, the part of it was a little bit of righteous indignation. Like, no, you don't get to do that just cause you have an internet connection. That's that bad.

Am I, that's no, I don't, I don't know. You're firing. So you feel, I saw you getting all like getting a little ticked off there. Yeah, no, that just goes back to what I said in the beginning. And I just gave this talk at Wheaton later in the day is what do we do with our emotions in this divisive world? Don't go from feeling to action. Stop. The Bible tells us gives us a whole little book called the Psalms that models what we're supposed to do with our emotions. So I think, again, I can't... A heart motivated by hatred and bitterness is going to burn out and burn people up. A heart motivated by the Holy Spirit that has done lament, forgiveness, and love work will never burn out and will actually

more effectively preach the message. I think we need to end with that, Laurie. That's incredible. Laurie Craig, where can people find your work? And I do want to give a shout out to your book, An Impossible Marriage, outstanding book, where can people find you and your ministry and your work? Yeah. Yeah. You can just search LaurieCraig.com, look for the Hole in My Heart podcast or find me on Instagram, it's where I'm the most active, L-A-U-R-I-E, and K-R-I-E-G, I just spelled it for you, you're welcome. Appreciate you friend, have a good one.

Yeah, you too. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.