Theology in the Raw - U.S. Foreign Policy, the Genocide in Yemen, and the War in Gaza: Dave DeCamp

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Dave DeCamp is the news editor of Antiwar.com--a program that provides a sounding board of interest to all who are concerned about U.S. foreign policy and its implications. Follow his daily podcast ��Antiwar.com.”  -- If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel! Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1 Visit my personal website: https://www.prestonsprinkle.com For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: https://www.centerforfaith.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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That breathy one sounded very creepy, am I right? Hey friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology Unwrapped. My guest today is Dave DeKamp, who is the news editor of antiwar.com, a program that provides a soundy board of interest to all who are concerned about US foreign policy and its implications. I came across Dave's work a couple of years ago. I forget where, but somebody turned me on to his daily podcast, antiwar.com. You can go to your podcast feed and go follow it. Highly recommend that. It's basically a daily update on what's going on in US foreign policy. And obviously in the last couple of years, he's focused heavily

on the situation in Israel, Palestine, also things going on in Yemen and Russia, Ukraine. And I just found Dave to be incredibly accurate and fair and thorough in his journalism, which is not always easy to find. People ask me all the time, like, who do you know, what kind of news sources do you trust? And that's a tough thing to answer. There's so much propaganda and bias and slants and half-truths and mistruths and misinformation and disinformation and all that stuff. And as I've tried to sort through the jungle of all that stuff, I just found Dave to be incredibly thorough,

well-researched, clear, and accurate. So I reached out to Dave. He didn't know me from Adam. And I was shocked that he responded and says, sure, I'd love to come on your podcast. So we talk about US foreign policy in particular. We start by talking about US involvement in the genocide in Yemen. And then we talk pretty extensively about the situation in Israel, Palestine.

So really enjoy getting to know Dave. So please welcome to the show for the first time, the one and only, Dave DeKamp. All right, Dave DeKamp, welcome to Theology in Raw. I told you offline, I feel like I'm talking to a movie star because I've been listening to your podcasts religiously over the last, well, maybe two years, maybe a year and a half, for sure since October 7th, 2023. But if just, I mean, you are one of my top go-to journalists when it comes to, I would say, I'm an American foreign policy in general, which has become kind of a side hobby of mine, but specifically the situation in Israel, Palestine. So yeah, anyway, honored to have you on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me, Preston.

That's really great to hear. I wanna know, I don't think I've heard you because your podcast is just kind of a news, reporting and stuff. So I don't even know, how did you get into American foreign policy? Is this always been an interest of yours or? Yeah, I mean, it always kind of was.

And I wasn't in like the journalism field or anything. I didn't go to school for it. I actually went to school to work on boats. I went to Maritime College in New York. And I ended up working on ferries after that. And I was working on the Staten Island Ferry in New York City. Like I said, I was always interested in foreign policy and I just started kind of really diving into it. And, you know, I was always interested actually

in becoming a diplomat, like joining the US Foreign Service. And I was studying for the test and as I was studying for the test and kind of reading the history, I was like, oh man, I don't want to be part of this government that's been doing all this, you know, kind of understanding all of the consequences of US foreign policy.

And then I became aware of the US-backed war in Yemen, the Saudi war against the Houthis in Yemen, which was really one of the most brutal conflict in the world at the time. It involved a full blockade, horrific bombing campaign on all civilian infrastructure. I remember in 2018, so not too long ago, the Saudis bombed a school bus in Yemen with an American bomb and killed like 60 children. I remember that made the news cycle, but in general, the war in Yemen, just nobody was even aware of it. I think because it was bipartisan, Obama started it, Trump continued it. The bombing the school bus made the news cycle, but then basically after one cycle, it was out of the news again.

That was just like, how can this evil just be completely put off to the side? So it was kind of that anger. I was involved in some anti-war activism in New York and protests and stuff. But like, what do you, if you go out and protest the war in Yemen at the time, like nobody would even know what you're talking about. Like just Americans were just so unaware of it. And so, you know, I was reading anti-war.com for a while at that point, and I just started kind of sending like blog posts and they started publishing them. And I just did it regularly. And then my boss, Eric Garris, who founded the site way back in 1995,

it's been around for a long time. Oh wow. He got in touch with me and said that he liked what I was doing and asked if I wanted to get involved in like the news section. So I started contributing to that. And that's what I do full-time now. It's essentially like, if you go to antiwar.com and you see the top section, it's all news

stories. Basically, like we kind of have our own news wire from our antiwar, non-interventionist perspective. And so I started doing that. And then in 2020, I started doing it full time, moved out in New York where things are more affordable and where you can, you know, do something like that full time. So my daughter, my daughter lives in New York and yeah, the expense of living in New York city is insane. But yeah, it's crazy. I was just up there this week and it's like, man,

it's just crazy up there. But, but yeah, so that's how I got into it. And it was really kind of my outrage over the war in Yemen and just how just nobody knew anything about it. I mean, it's on scale with what we're seeing in Gaza. It was that brutal. I mean, hundreds of thousands of children starved to death because of the blockade and bombing campaign. Can you give us a sense? I think both of our listeners are like, yeah, I don't know much of anything about that. Like I remember first hearing, I think it was Dave Smith mentioned in passing, I think he mentioned in passing, you know, the US backed Saudi genocide on Yemenis people. I'm like, wait, what? And then I looked in a little more and I'm like,

oh my gosh, this is horrific. And I don't think I've ever, literally ever talked to anybody who has even awareness of that. Can you give us, I mean us maybe a brief history of that? Yeah, yeah, of course. Conflict, conflict if we call it. Dave Smith, he's great. Cause I remember he went on rogue

and I think it was like 2021 or 2022 when there was some work toward trying to end US involvement in the war. And he gave like a whole breakdown of it. And that was the clip they put on YouTube. So I think that woke a lot of people up to it. But so, I mean, so the Houthis are in the news now that the US is bombing Yemen again. Their official name is Ansar Allah and they're a Zaydi Shia political movement that took

over the capital of Yemen in 2014, Sanaa, and have basically been in charge in that area of Yemen ever since. Yemen used to be north and South Yemen from 1962 to 1990. And the Houthis basically control what used to be North Yemen, and it's where 80% of Yemenis live. So you see in the media, they're always called the Houthi rebels, but they've been in control for over 10 years now. So they're not really rebels. But so, you know, the Houthis go back, they were on the border region of Saudi Arabia, so they've had kind of issues with the Saudis. And again, they're a type of Shiite Islam, and they're portrayed as an Iranian proxy,

which just is not proper characterization. They're aligned politically with Iran, they receive some support. We don't really know the extent of it because Iran denies it, but they have deep roots in the country. The area of North Yemen that they control was controlled, was ruled by Zaydi Shia imams for a thousand years until the 1960s. So people try to act like Iran, like pluck them out of somewhere and place them in Yemen, but they have deep roots in the country. So they took over the Capitol

in 2014 and the Saudis and the UAE, you know, wanted to basically do a regime change there. And the US backed them in 2015. March 2015 was when the bombing campaign against them began. And an interesting detail, because the Houthis are the Shiites, they're an enemy of Al-Qaeda in Yemen, Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, who the US was bombing for years. Obama really ramped up that drone war in 2009. And there's reporting before the US backed the Saudis and the UAE against the Houthis that the US was actually sharing intelligence with the Houthis to help them in the fight against Al-Qaeda. So when the US joined the side of the Saudis and the UAE against the Houthis, they were

also taking the side of Al-Qaeda and US weapons sold to the Saudis in the UAE ended up in Al-Qaeda's hands and they were like joining militias that the US was backing fighting against the Houthis. So that's how the war started. And then again, this was a really brutal war. The Saudis bombed all sorts of civilian infrastructure. They bombed the food supply, they bombed farms and like sheep and fishing boats. They bombed all the water treatment facilities. It caused the largest modern day cholera outbreak at the time. Yemen was already the poorest Arab country, so it created this horrific humanitarian crisis. The number from the UN from 2015 to the end of 2021, 377,000 people died because of the war, about half due to violence and about half because of starvation and disease.

And that's considered a low estimate based on what I know about the conflict. And the US helped enforce a blockade on Yemen. I mean, this is just really important context when we're talking about the situation today with Yemen and the Houthis, but that's basically the background. And the Houthis during that time, they basically became better fighters, even under that horrific blockade and they started hitting Saudi oil fields, like deep inside Saudi Arabia. And that's basically what made the Saudis decide to sue for peace. And there's been a ceasefire between the Saudis and the Houthis since early 2022.

There's been like fighting on the border and stuff, but for the most part, it's been calm. So the situation with Iran, the Houthis have missiles and drones that are very similar to Iranian ones. So my understanding is that Iran basically helped them build up this missile and drone program, you know, with maybe engineers, blueprints, and some components.

But as far as I understand it now, and I've even seen US officials say this recently, they have their own domestic weapons supply. They produce their own weapons. So the idea that they're reliant on Iran and the idea that they take orders from Iran is just not right. And that's kind of seems to be what, you know, if you see what Trump's saying, he's saying he's going to blame Iran for every Houthi attack, then that's just a bad way to be approaching

the situation. What was the motivation for the Saudis to attack Yemen initially? And what's the motivation for the US to back the Saudis? Like, why is the US even... Yeah, that's a good question. So the Saudis, again, they've had skirmishes with the Houthis on the border because they were like right there and basically their home base is Saddaq, which is the province right on the border. And they ousted basically like a Saudi, US and Saudi puppet who Salah, the former president who basically was ruling, not he wasn't ruling Yemen, but after he was ousted by the Houthis in 2014, he was basically acting as the president of Yemen from a hotel in Saudi Arabia. So they just, you know, they wanted to put their people back in charge in Yemen, as far as I understand it. And the US, I mean, this is something Dave Smith always talks

about. So if you look back at the reports at the time, the reasoning for the US backing the Saudis was to placate them, to placate the Saudis, to make them happy because they were unhappy about the Iran nuclear deal. And basically that's like the justification that US officials gave at the time. It's part of the overall narrative of pushing back against Iranian influence in the region and just helping the Saudis because they've been an ally of the US for a long time. But those are the real reasons. Is it coming down to oil?

Is it coming down to the financial benefit of being in cahoots with Saudi Arabia? The US, there's financial incentivization to being on the side of the Saudis and whoever the Saudis are against, we're going to be against? Is that too simplified? Yeah. Yeah. That was definitely part of it. Um, I mean, I think the calculations change now that the U S can kind of be an independent oil producer, but for, you know, they want the Saudis, you know, uh, you know, using the U S dollar and everything, but you

know, the Saudis have decided, you know, they normalize relations with Iran recently and, and that was a big surprise. So they've kind of changed their calculus in the region and they're against the US bombing. I don't know if, I wouldn't say that they're against the US bombing the Houthis right now, but they don't want any part of it, which is, you know, as someone who's followed that conflict in Yemen, I remember, because Biden started bombing the Houthis in 2024 in response to their attacks on the shipping. And we could get into the cause of that, but the Saudis didn't want anything to do with it. And it was just amazing kind of to see that. And as far as I understand, they still, they don't want any part of it. But yet to placate the

Saudis, that was the line because they were unhappy with the nuclear deal. Then Trump, when he was president, because there was a lot of pressure on him about the relationship with the Saudis, because they killed Jamal Khashoggi in 2018, the Washington Post reporter, who was killed in the consulate in Turkey. But his reasoning was, oh, they buy all these weapons from us. Look at all this money we're making on the weapons, and they're investing in the US.

So that was his reasoning, that's what he said. That's the thing about Trump, is he'll just say stuff like that openly, not kind of dress it up. He says out loud what I feel like Democrats kind of do more secretive, but it's kind of two sides of the same coin when it comes to foreign policy largely, right? I mean, yeah, essentially he just doesn't pretend like it's some big noble cause. We make more money. They buy our weapons to bomb Yemeni civilians. The Hutus, Houthis,

because you often hear terrorist organization, you have Hezbollah, you have Hamas, you have the Houthis. From your perspective, are they a terrorist organization? Are they evil people? Are they a resistance movement? How should we, as American citizens, view the Houthis? Yeah, I mean, they are like a resistance. That's their rhetoric that they're a resistance movement, part of the axis of resistance in the region. And so you see them have that sort of rhetoric. But again, I mean, they're a Shiite Islam movement that is from the region. You know, they're guilty of crimes in the war as well. But, you know, the terrorist label gets

kind of just thrown around so much. And I don't think it's helpful because that's one of the things the US recently did before bombing them again was label them a terrorist organization. And you see what that justifies in Gaza and Lebanon. They say, oh, they're a terrorist organization. So that means we could bomb them in their homes with their families indiscriminately. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so what? Yeah. So the Houthis are and if people aren't from some people might not even know where Yemen is on the map, but I mean, they, you have this tight channel at the base of the Red Sea where any shipping

that wants to go to Israel goes right, I mean, right through that tight corridor, right? So as I understand it, or I would love for you to unpack this, I mean, so the Houthis are, yeah, bombing or attacking any ship that's taking supplies to Israel because that is ultimately going back to feed the war on Gaza. Is that accurate or?

Yeah, I mean, that's essentially their justification for it. So they started this in 2023. So you had the October 7th attack on Israel. Israel unleashed, you know, it its war and blockade on Gaza. And the Houthis started, they said they're going to target Israeli shipping and Israel-linked shipping and they started hitting ships in the region. I think to some extent, it was indiscriminate. I think they hit ships that weren't going to Israel or weren't linked to Israel.

But basically, there's a cause for what they're doing because people see this and they say, oh, I kind of understand how people could get convinced to kind of support the US intervention there because they just see this and they say, oh, shouldn't we protect shipping lanes? Isn't that what the US military is for? The thing is that they're not pirates. I think they hijacked one ship. They're not trying to get the cargo. They're not trying to get ransoms for any ships that they take. They're viewing it as enforcing a blockade on Israel, and there is a reason for what they're doing.

It's in response to what Israel's doing in Gaza. That was always the thing that was going to stop the attacks. So in January, 2024, in response to them attacking Israeli shipping, the US launched a bombing campaign against the Houthis. And that only escalated, that only made the region more volatile. The Houthis started attacking American and British shipping in response. They weren't doing that before. And it just, you know, the situation got worse. And the whole time, I mean, Biden launched like hundreds, maybe even a thousand missiles

into Yemen in that year. And it didn't stop them. And anybody who knew anything about Yemen knew that it wouldn't stop the Houthis. It would be considering, you know, what they survived under the Saudi war. And they were saying, and US officials even admitted that like, yeah, if there was a ceasefire in Gaza, they would probably stop. And then there was a ceasefire in Gaza on January 19th, it went into effect and they stopped.

So, what happened recently was that the ceasefire deal in Gaza, you know, Israel was essentially violating it most of the time. And then at the end of the first phase, they imposed a total blockade on all aid entering Gaza. And the Houthis said, okay, we're going to reimpose our blockade on Israel. And then in response to that announcement, the US started bombing the Houthis again, started bombing Yemen again. And they launched really heavy airstrikes on March 15th. The number is 53 people were killed. And so it was in response, you know, it doesn't have anything to do with securing shipping. That's not really why they're doing it. They're doing it to defend Israel, to support what Israel's doing in Gaza. One reason why you could see that is

because now the Houthis, so basically since the US started bombing them again, now they're attacking American warships and they're firing missiles into Israel again, which they mostly get intercepted by the Israeli air defenses. So essentially the whole situation, the region is exploding again. When the cause, you know, the US could have just made Israel implement the full ceasefire deal that it signed in January, which would have released all the Israeli hostages in exchange for a permanent ceasefire and Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. But Israel didn't want to do that. So they've completely blown the whole thing up again. So the whole situation is just a mess right now.

And look at what's happened since last Saturday. The US has bombed Yemen every day, and the Houthis have claimed new attacks every day. They're not going to stop. If anything, the Houthis want this. They're trying to make a name for themselves as the only Arabs sticking up for the Palestinians. There's a guy named Nasser Arbi who Scott Horton interviews. He's a journalist in Yemen. In 2024, before Biden started bombing Yemen again, he was saying that he thought the Houthis

were trying to provoke the US. They wanted direct confrontation with the US. Because again, it's all about them making a name for themselves. And that's part of that resistance mindset and rhetoric that we see from them. I want to get to Israel-Palestine because there's so much going on there and you do such amazing, I would say, very accurate and fair journalism. But yeah, before we do, so with the Houthis and Yemen people, was there any anti, to your knowledge, like a strong anti-American, anti-US sentiment prior to the US-backed Saudi

genocide on the Yemenis people? Because if a country attempts genocide on a certain people group, you can understand why there might be animosity. To be a victim of genocide is not fun, I'm sure. Prior to that, was there any anti-American? I think Americans often feel like, gosh, these people out of nowhere just hate America, these horrible people. They're jealous of our freedom or whatever rhetoric is there. But it's like, yeah, but when you back a genocide on their civilian population, that tends to create animosity. But was there prior animosity towards America, to your knowledge, before that? Or was America involved in Yemen in other ways prior to the genocide in 2015 and following? Yeah. Well, so there was some, you know, the anti-American sentiment, their slogan, which I believe, I'm pretty sure I'm not positive, but I think

they changed it after the US invaded Iraq and they added death to America to their slogan, which again, it's part of this kind of revolutionary language that we see from Iran as well. In Iran, the Islamic revolution, the whole embassy crisis, I mean, it was a response to the CIA coup in Iran in 1953. So that's part of kind of their identity, you know, the Islamic government's identity in Iran. So we saw, you know, they had that slogan, but again, as I mentioned, you know, the US was sharing intel with the Houthis, was cooperating with them in some way before backing

the Saudis against them. So with a lot of these groups, Hezbollah, again, Iran, you see the rhetoric, but at the end of the day, they're interested in being the power in their area. They have their interests that I think go beyond, you know, this kind of rhetoric that we see. So you know, there certainly was some anti-American sentiment, but not as much as it was after the U.S. backing the Saudis there. This episode is brought to you by Mitopure by Timeline.

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So for theology and neural listeners, Timeline is offering 10% off your first order of Mitopure if you just go to timeline.com forward slash theology. Okay, that's timeline.com forward slash theology. Go check it out. It seems like so, and you're way more well-read in foreign policy than I am. I dabble, I've read several books and follow things,

but it seems like so much of the backlash against American involvement in the Middle East goes back to that CIA back coup in 1953, where we overthrew a democratically elected leader and installed a Shah of Iran who was brutal to his people. I don't know, is there something prior to that? It just seems like that led to the 1979 US hostages and revolution and all that. Is that 1953 coup, is that kind of like a ultimate source of so much of what's been going on against the US?

I think it's some of it. A lot of it is like kind of the British and the French, how they operated in the Middle East and the US really coming out as like a strong supporter for Israel after the 1967 war. I mean, they were supporting Israel before then, but I think that's another big kind of turning point was after the 67 war. And then you had the Islamic Revolution and then in the 1980s, you know, they backed Saddam against Iran in a brutal war. I think it was an eight year war and Saddam used chemical weapons and everything. And so, you know, it was at that time that the US was also back started backing the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, which became Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

And you know, it was really like the things that, you know, if you look at like Al Qaeda's grievances with the US in the 1990s, it a lot of you look at like Al Qaeda's grievances with the U.S. in the 1990s, a lot of it stems from the U.S. support for Israel, the U.S. invasion of, really the U.S. establishing military bases on the Arabian Peninsula when they intervened in Kuwait against Saddam Hussein, the first Iraq war, and the sanctions and bombing campaign on Iraq that followed. Those were like the main grievances was, again, the support for Israel, US bases on the Arabian Peninsula, and the siege and bombing campaign on Iraq. And that's when things really started to kind of take off for the US and the Middle East.

But yeah, there were certainly these events beforehand. And again, support for Israel is a really big, big one. That's a big one. And that's exactly what Osama bin Laden said years before 9-11. I mean, his big grievance was the persecution of Palestinian people through the US backed the US support of Israel and military bases. It's funny, most people don't even know how all of the US backed, the US support of Israel and military bases. It's funny, most people don't even know how all of the US's enemies today were friends back in the 80s, Al Qaeda, Saddam Hussein and others. It's just so messy and kind of horrified.

Israel-Palestine, how long have you been following tensions, conflicts in Israel-Palestine? I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry it's not so much that I was like lied about this situation, Israel, Palestine. It's like, I was never taught about like, when I was a kid, I remember just assuming Israel was like, always there. Like, oh yeah, it's in the Bible. It's on the map. It's always been there. Like I just connect, you know, it's just kind of the way I thought.

But then I remember, yeah, it was around 2013. Like I started reading about it and started paying attention. And then there was the 2014 Gaza war. And again, this was like, you know, I wasn't like really closely following it, but that's when I was really aware of it. And then in the following years, I kind of started reading a lot of books about it. And the time that I felt like, you know,

that I was really honed in on it was 2018 when they were doing the great march of return in Gaza. And Israeli snipers were just shooting all these unarmed Palestinians on the border. We're just walking toward the border fence. And that's when I was like, kind of started to have a different kind of more passionately against the US supporting Israel was around then.

And then in the years kind of leading up to October 7th, a lot of my work was mainly focused on Ukraine because everything happening there. But I was, you know, we were always following what's happening in the Middle East. You know, man, I mean, you think you look at the death toll in Gaza, you know, if you follow this conflict for a while, it's like, this is just a whole nother level. Like, and we talk about the grievances the Arabs had with the US for supporting Israel before. Now it's just on a total nother scale, the destruction that we've seen. And what is a genocide? We can debate about the legal term all day, but just look at what Israel

did last week when they restarted the bombing, the bombing tents, killing so many women and children, like 200 children within a day or two. And this is what it's just in the accounts that we hear from the hospitals in Gaza. There's American doctors in Gaza, one of them I speak to and he told me the night the bombing was started, he operated almost exclusively on women and children and like the specific anecdotes he told me about the people he was treating. I mean, it's just like, and again, Israel completely blew up this ceasefire deal that it signed and agreed to.

And I mean, they were saying the whole time, basically Netanyahu was saying that they weren't going to fully implement it, but it's just like the narrative that it's about the hostages is just totally false at this point. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, like, obviously, that's part of it. But again, they signed a deal that would have gotten all the hostages out and they could have implemented the full thing. And this has been acknowledged by Israeli media, Haaretz, the newspaper, which is important

to keep in mind that that's's Netanyahu's opposition paper. But they had a whole editorial about how it was Israel, not Hamas, that violated the deal. And I mean, there's really no disputing that. If you look at the specific things, like the one big thing was in the first phase of the ceasefire, they were supposed to begin negotiations on the second phase. And during the second phase, there would have been the permanent ceasefire and withdrawal. And Israel just refused to engage in those negotiations. And then they, you know, they imposed the blockade on aid and there were still negotiations ongoing when they started the

bombing again last week, you know, the really heavy bombing, because there were some limited airstrikes throughout the whole ceasefire. There was? Yeah. So there wasn't an actual ceasing of all firing during the ceasefire? No. About 150 Palestinians were killed between the January 19th and when Israel restarted the bombing last week, like the real heavy bombing. And a lot of these, you know, the justification from the IDF, most of them was gunfire. Like they would say, oh, they were approaching, you know, this group of Palestinians was approaching

our troops. So, we had to shoot them. So, that was their justification. And in one instance, they killed an Israeli civilian contractor simply because he was walking towards them. He was unarmed. And then there were some airstrikes, you know, they claim, you know, obviously they claim that these are like terrorists or whatever, but I didn't see any compelling evidence.

And you know, it was pretty clear to me that Hamas was trying to implement this default ceasefire. Just horrific what's happening there now on the ground. Soterios Johnson Did Hamas violate the ceasefire? Were they firing rockets or doing anything or did they stick pretty close to it as far as you know? Michael Soterios Johnson As far as I know, they stuck to it. They fired a few rockets like the two days after Israel started the real heavy bombing. Soterios Johnson Oh, after they already broke it. They fired a few rockets like the two days after Israelers started the real heavy bombing. Oh, after they already broke this. Okay. Yeah. And I mean, from reading it, you know, there could have been, you know, obviously there's other elements on the ground that,

because again, Israel's always claiming, oh, they're like, we kill terrorists planting explosives or something like that. Again, I haven't seen any real evidence of that from Israel and I tend not to trust the Israeli military. But from seeing how things were going, Hamas was downplaying the Israeli ceasefire violations, I thought. They were kind of keeping a lid on it because they wanted to implement the full... Because I think they knew that Israel, if they couldn't get Israel to commit to this permanent ceasefire, you know, that was like their chance to survive. And now what we're seeing, we saw Israel Katz,

the Israeli defense minister, the other day say, basically, he issued this threat to like the residents of Gaza. He said that if you don't release the hostages, if you don't expel Hamas from Gaza, things are going to get much worse. And what he said was, too, was like, if you don't expel Hamas from Gaza, things are going to get much worse. And what he said was, too, was like, if you do those two things, then you'll have more options. Like you'll be able to resettle, you'll be able to leave Gaza. So essentially saying that expelling the Palestinians is going to happen even if they do what we want, even if they release the hostages and everything.

And I think that is the mindset of the Netanyahu government. Because you see Trump saying all this stuff about his plan to take over Gaza and permanently remove the Palestinians. I think ethnic cleansing is the ultimate goal of the Netanyahu government. I don't think they thought it was possible before they had the support from the US basically. Well, I don't understand, David. I try to always steel man the other position. Like, what am I missing? When something just seems so obvious, it's like maybe I'm missing something. So like, it seems so obvious to me that intensified bombing will not release hostages.

In fact, you're probably going to bomb hostages because you don't know where they are, I don't think. So what's the, can you steel man to their side? Why do they think, because it is, it's never worked ever in ever like intensified bombing and then, okay, we give up, here's all the hostages. Like that's just not ever happen. It won't happen.

Is there a way you can steel man the other side? Like why would they choose this path if they say they want the hostages back when they were on a pathway to get the hostages back and everything was heading that direction? I don't. Yeah. I mean, it's tough to steelman that because, you know, you see the hostages, the families are all outraged by this. The families of people still in Gaza and even people that were held hostage in Gaza who have gotten out are outraged by this too, because they were fearful of the Israeli bombs while they're in Gaza.

But you see it, Israel supporters all saying, release the hostages, release the hostages, acting like the military, the bombing is just going to make them do it. That's just not the case. I mean, I think there was a total of eight Israeli hostages kind of extracted by the IDF. They got intel where they were and they went in and got them out. But all the rest were released through negotiations and through diplomacy. And the deal that they signed in January, the former Israeli defense minister said it was the same thing that was on the table like six months

earlier, like same exact deal. So all that killing, all that bombing didn't do anything to free the hostages when they could have just had done the deal then. So yeah, I mean, I really don't see the argument. I try to put myself in the position of the, in someone else's shoes who has a different opinion, but it's hard to figure out why they would support this other than they just want to kind of destroy Gaza and just want to kind of take out revenge on the people. Was it Netanyahu up for trial on March 18th or something? And like it coincided pretty ironically, I guess, with the breaking of the ceasefire. Can you tell us a bit about that?

Yeah, I forget what the exact date was, but he was had another like corruption trial coming up and that got delayed when he completely broke the ceasefire on, it was a week ago, so it was March 18th. That was when they restarted the bombing. And I don't know when, I forget when the trial was, but it was very soon. I think it was on March 18th.

For some reason, I think so. Yeah, that's quite the coincidence then. And that's a big aspect of this, like Netanyahu, because of this precarious political position he's in, you know, there was a lot of things going on before October 7th, corruption charges, and then the failure on October 7th, the failure to protect Israelis, the failure to know that that attack was coming despite all the warnings. So he's under pressure for that.

But at the same time, mostly the Israeli population supports the war. So Netanyahu has the interest, you know, has a complete interest in being in a constant state of war, whether that's in Gaza, Lebanon, now Syria, the West Bank. And because of his precarious position, he's reliant on kind of, you know, the far right, which is Bezalel Smotrich, who's the finance minister, and Itamar Ben-Ghivir, who's the national security minister. He just rejoined the government. He quit over the ceasefire deal,

but since they restarted the bombing, he rejoined. And I mean, these guys are as extreme as you get. They've just long been on the record for total ethnic cleansing of the West Bank and Gaza and reestablishing Jewish settlements in Gaza. And Smotrich has been saying for months now that we're going to completely occupy and take over Gaza. I got a guarantee from Netanyahu that he wouldn't implement the full ceasefire deal and we're

going to go ahead with Trump's plan to expel all the Palestinians. So these guys are the ones basically running the show right now. And you have the Likud party, which is Netanyahu's party. A lot of people, they vary a little bit because it's a bigger party, but a lot of them are pretty much just completely aligned with these guys, Smotrich and Ben-Gavir, who have their own political parties that just have a few seats in the Knesset. If both of them quit the government, then Netanyahu loses the majority, which could make elections happen.

It wouldn't trigger them right away, but it would make it more likely that elections would happen soon. Netanyahu doesn't want elections to happen anytime soon. So this is a huge factor in what's driving this because most Israelis, it seems like, are against restarting the bombing. Overall, again, most of them want to destroy Hamas, want to destroy Gaza, but they also know it's not like, you know, the Israeli military is hurting, it's overstretched. Realistically, where are they going to put these Palestinians without sparking a bigger war in the region? So I think people don't really view it as a realistic option for Israel to cleanse all the Palestinians out of Gaza, but the people

running the show do. They do think it's really possible now. Oh, man. It's just so sickening. So yeah, it's hard to wrap your mind and hard around it all. I'm curious, shifting gears just slightly, how do you go about doing your journalism on this? Because there's so many narratives and propaganda, and it's just so hard to sort out facts from non-facts, right? And even people, there's probably people listening right now who are like Dave and Preston, you guys are just believing all this propaganda, you're believing Hamas, whatever journalism and most of this is just not even true and you don't know what you're talking about. I'm sure you get that. How do you, I guess maybe explain,

how do you go about sorting through all the lies and mistruth and half-truths and propaganda to getting to the facts of what's actually going on? That can't be an easy process. Yeah, no, it is tough. And I mean, a lot of it, a lot of the kind of the worst things of what Israel's been doing in Gaza has been revealed by Israeli media. So reading Israeli media gives you a much more realistic perspective because that stuff

doesn't get reported on in the American media. It's kind of amazing. I mean, like the headlines, like when Netanyahu broke the ceasefire and started the bombing again, the Wall Street Journal had an editorial like, oh, Hamas asked for this basically. And then Haaretz had the editorial that it was Israel, not Hamas that broke the ceasefire. So you just see kind of a different perspective and a lot of the reporting because there is kind of the, I guess you'd consider it the, you know, the Israeli left who's opposed to the occupation of the Palestinian territories.

They've done a lot of reporting and they get whistleblowers and everything. You know, there's this publication, 972 Magazine, has revealed all of this horrific stuff. And I mean, right from the beginning, they had a report in November 2023 that said Israel was purposely targeting basically civilian targets, what they call power targets, which was like civilian infrastructure. And the idea is to put pressure on the civilian population. So they put pressure on Hamas, which has just never worked in the history of wars like this. They also, they had a big quote from an Israeli source who said, everything we do is intentional.

Every time a three-year-old girl dies, it's because someone in the army chose that it wasn't a big deal for her to die. They call it collateral damage, but when you look at Gaza and you look at what those reports have revealed, that they'll say, oh, there's a Hamas guy in this area. We assess that this strike might kill 100 civilians for one guy. Okay, let's do it. How is that collateral damage? How is 100 people killed when you're trying to kill one guy?

That's not collateral damage. That's intentional. This has all been very clear that this is what Israel's been doing in Gaza for a while. And the human shields narrative, I think when you look at the pictures of Gaza, just goes out the windows. What is Hamas under every single building? You see them, they were bombing all these shelters and schools and they call it Hamas Command and Control Facility and just never produce any evidence. So it's tough to sort through,

but the Israeli media has helped a lot because also I do have a bias, like I'm coming at this from an angle because our publication is called antiwar.com. People should be aware of our bias. We're antiwar. And from an American perspective, so like I am more critical of the Israeli side because that's the side that my government's funding. That's the side that we're sending all these bombs to. So I focus my criticism on that. And I think that's what we should do as Americans, as American taxpayers.

And, you know, another big thing is the numbers. Everybody accuses me of, you know, repeating Hamas propaganda when I report on the Gaza Health Ministry numbers. And from what I've seen from following it every day, you know, it looked like the numbers that they were putting out in their daily updates were accurate and there's been studies of their numbers. And you know, most people have come to the conclusion that the real death toll is actually probably higher. And this is something that even the US State Department said back in the kind of early

days in I think it was November 2023 that the real death toll is probably higher. They count all the bodies that are brought to hospitals. They don't count the people under the rubble. And for a little while, it was a little fuzzy because it was like Israel, you know, they started the bombing October, November 2023 was just, you know, so heavy and they lost communication. So, I think for a little while, the health ministry was counting. They said they're using news reports for their death toll. But then as things calmed down a bit, they kind of got their count back together and now they went back to just counting the bodies. Just yesterday, they released a name, the names of 50,000 and 21 Palestinians who they say were killed and that included

15,600 something children. And you know, I think these numbers are accurate because they're meticulously recorded. I mean, they're publishing every name. And, you know, there's been studies into the open source information and it's found to be accurate. And again, if you just kind of follow it day by day, you know, and you see the pictures, you know, we have an account with Reuters for their pictures and they have all sorts of other news agencies that they work with and the pictures coming out from God's everyday. You see women and children injured or killed. So, you know, I think that the health ministry numbers are accurate and probably are an undercount. Right now, their death toll is just over 50,000. Pete And I believe 11,000 kind of missing, right, that are most likely under the rubble.

And that doesn't even account for the indirect deaths that have happened and will continue to happen through disease, lack of sanitation, lack of clean water. I mean, how many legs have been amputated and who knows five years down the road what that's going to lead to. I mean, it's hard to... I mean, I think you can measure from previous wars,

just the... you could even, the average, indirect deaths that happen when you just devastate or just destroy so many civilian infrastructures that are necessary for livelihood. So yeah, the numbers, so is it, so to support your point, I guess, I looked in this a while back that in previous wars, the Gaza Health Ministry, the Hamas control, as people say, you know, health ministry that has tallied up the number of deaths. In previous wars, that has been corroborated with independent investigation and has shown to be accurate in previous wars.

Is that true? Because right now we can't really corroborate, right? Because independent media is not allowed to go into Gaza. Is that true? Because right now we can't really corroborate, right? Because independent media is not allowed to go into Gaza. Is that true? Or I mean, could we corroborate the numbers through other sources? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I know the Lancet, was it the Lancet? They published a study basically cross-checking with publicly available information from social media, from medical records of people who were killed. And they found that the real death toll was likely significantly higher. And that's just from violence.

They said as of October 2024, they thought the real death toll is probably over 70,000 from looking at the data. But in previous wars, you know, the 2014 war is the big one. So the health ministry had their numbers. The UN verified them basically, and they had came up with a very similar number. And so did the Israeli, I think it was the military. Israel's numbers were very similar to the health ministry numbers as well.

And there was also that 972, their, I forget the name, maybe it's a local call, the Hebrew language website, that's like their sister publication. They had a report, I think it was a local call, the Hebrew language website, that's like their sister publication. They had a report, I think it was January 2024, that said Israel uses the health ministry numbers to get an assessment of how many people they're killing, of how many civilians are killing by looking at the number of women and children. So there's indications that the Israeli military thinks these numbers are accurate as well. And again, I mean, just look at the pictures

and the daily violence. I mean, these are not astronomical numbers when you look at the destruction that's happening in this kind of small area where a lot of people live. Hey friends, I want to offer you a free course by Professor N.T. Wright called Simply Good News, which is an exploration of Jesus' gospel as powerful, life-changing news. So let's move beyond the truncated picture of Jesus's message and examine what the gospel is really all about.

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all of which include video lectures, robust curriculum designed to help everyone discover the possibilities of engaging theology wherever you're at in your faith journey. So take advantage of this free course, Simply Good News by EnchiRite, and also check out the many other engaging courses at admireauto.org. With so many Americans that support what's going on, maybe celebrate would be too strong, although I've seen some people celebrate, but would say, well, no, I mean, the problem is Hamas. It's really sad that civilians have to die in war.

That's the fog of war. That's what war is. But at the end of the day, Hanmas needs to go. That is the primary thing that needs to happen. And so this is the sad effects of war. Like, how do you respond to that? It can be, yeah, I'm sure you hear that a lot. That this is the necessary thing that needs to happen

to get rid of the primary problem, namely Hamas. Yeah, well, I mean, there's a few things. One is that by killing all these civilians, you're just creating recruits for Hamas, which, you know, I mean, what does a kid, a young Palestinian kid in Gaza, if his family's wiped out by an Israeli airstrike, what is he going to do when he grows up? Same thing.

What if you're a father and you have children and your babies are killed and your wife's killed? What are you going to do when he grows up? Same thing. What if you're a father and you have children and your babies are killed and your wife's killed? What are you going to do? And that's something even CQ Brown, who was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, he was fired recently by Trump. But when this thing started in 2023, him and Lloyd Austin, the secretary of defense, both basically said that Israel's got to watch out because killing so many civilians is going to recruit more for Hamas. And US intelligence has said that they basically replaced all the fighters that they have lost in the Israeli bombing campaign. So you kill a lot of Palestinians, and they killed Hamas's leadership, but leadership can

be replaced. And Hamas has shown that it's refilling its ranks, and they have this kind of tunnel infrastructure that's tough to totally destroy. You end up just killing all these innocent people. And I mean, at this point, you got to look at the view of a Palestinian. I mean, if your family's been wiped out, if young children, you know, your children, children you know, brothers, sisters are wiped out by Israel, how can, you know, you could make the same argument from their perspective? How are they supposed to live with the Israeli government still in power, with Netanyahu still in power,

these people who have killed so many of their family members? So, you know, when we talk about peace, they're going to have to learn to live near each other, both the Israelis and the Palestinians, and in every form of that. And you know, the potential peace deals that are on the table, it's really, you know, I really, when we want to talk about what is a potential solution, it's really hard to say, like, realistically speaking, I mean, I don't see this going anywhere good, considering everything that's been happening. But the fact is, you know, they're going to have to, like Hamas isn't going to just go

away, you know, and they're not going to be able to bomb it away unless they want to just genocide all the people there, which it does seem like they want to do that considering they've cut off all the aid and are doing this heavy bombing now. But I think that, you know, is going to cause more problems for Israel. Obviously, besides the moral problem with genociding the Palestinians in Gaza, it's going to cause other problems for Israel. I mean, you have Egypt and Jordan. These are basically two Arab governments that don't want anything to do with this conflict.

But if it's an existential threat, especially King Abdullah in Jordan, because a lot of his population is Palestinian, if Israel is expelling millions of Palestinians into his territory, that's an existential threat to him. So this could cause all sorts of conflicts for Israel. It's just that peace is the solution to bring stability to Israel, giving Palestinians their rights. But is that really going to happen? I just don't know. Pete Slauson Yeah. So, do you know, I mean, if you look ahead two years from now, five years from now, where do you think we're going to be? Or is it just pretty dismal? I mean, as things just keep escalating and as you try to overcome evil

with more and more power, more and more bombs, it just doesn't seem to work. Yeah, I don't see this going anywhere good. I mean, it's hard to imagine two, five years from now. I think right now, what Netanyahu wants is this to keep going the way it's going and to rope the US into a war with Iran. I used to kind of downplay the risk of a war with Iran, but with the US bombing Yemen now

and blaming Iran, there's potential for big escalation in Lebanon right now. Israel, that's another ceasefire they completely violated. They've continued to occupy southern Lebanon. The US is threatening Lebanon now that if they don't make a deal that Israel wants, then there's going to be escalation. There's a chance for escalation with Iran because if you look at last year, Iran fired its first missile attack on Israel ever, direct missile attack. And that was in response to Israel bombing their consulate in Syria.

So we could see, and then they did it again in response to Israel killing Hamas's political leader in Iran in that assassination. And also Israel killed some Iranians when they killed Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah. So that was their justification to attack again. So if we see escalation in Lebanon again, there's chances for escalation with Iran. And I think right now Netanyahu is probably going to try to angle to get the US directly involved in a war with Iran. If that happens, I don't envision an invasion,

the US trying to invade Iran, but battling it out with exchanging strikes in the region and maybe through proxies. And then I think Netanyahu will use that as cover to go ahead with the ethnic cleansing and more genocide in Gaza and maybe ramping things up even more in the West Bank. That seems like the path we're on. And I mean, really the only way to stop it is for the US to cut off military aid to Israel. And that would stop it. That's the thing that's so frustrating that Americans need to understand is that Israel needs US military aid and basically US backing to do what it's doing.

If it lost that, it would be forced to stop and reassess and probably start signing some real peace deals. That is the reality of the situation. So I hope- I mean, it's literally a phone call away. It could be a 30 second phone call. Hey, you're not getting another dime as long as one more Palestinian gets killed. So stop it, done. Is that too, I mean, that's kind of oversimplified, I think, but kind of not, I mean, it's. Especially right now, because there's a deal

that they signed. Right. That the US got them to sign. You could call and say, hey, we're gonna do the deal, stop. And that's what Hamas wants to do. And you know, there's things to work out in the longterm, but they could, I think right now, get on the phone and say, all right, that's enough. We wanna just do do this deal now. You're not going to get some other deal.

Let's just do this one. Is there anybody in power in the US that is not in support of this? I mean, it's shocking that this is such a bipartisan support for something that I mean, Pete, they have an internet connection. They could see the video. This is not, it doesn't seem that difficult to sort out. Not that there's not difficulties and complexities and there's both sides of this app, but at the end of the day, you can't look at this through clear eyes and say, yes, let's keep doing this. It doesn't.

But is there anybody speaking? Is it? Why not? Well, you know, I mean, you talk about like people in power. I know in Congress, there was some opposition from Democrats. I mean, it was it was small, but it seemed like it was growing when Biden was in. And it seems like it's gone now with Trump, which is surprising, because I thought it would create kind of more opposition from the Democrats

now that Trump's doing it. And there are some, but it's just all this other stuff that they're paying attention to kind of domestically. It seems like there's just all this other stuff that they're paying attention to kind of domestically. It seems like there's just really no real opposition to this in Washington at all. And I don't think anybody in the Trump administration, I mean, I know there's some good people in the administration who have been against this, you know, what's happening, but it doesn't seem like they're being listened to now.

So I don't know. I mean, you know, unless there's, hopefully there's some kind of negotiations going on behind the scenes that are going to make some progress, but it just doesn't, you know, things are just really looking, looking bad now. I saw Bernie tweet something when the ceasefire broke about we need to cut off all aid to Israel. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, Bernie Sanders, he introduced some legislation to end some arms sales to Israel. And I think there's going to be some growing opposition from Democrats. But I mean, the Republicans are in control right now completely.

And besides Thomas Massey, he's like the Kentucky... Yeah, see the only one... I think he's the only one, the only single Republican in Congress who votes against aid for Israel and things like that. Is he the only one that doesn't get AIPAC support? I think I heard that somewhere. I don't know if that's true or not. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. He told Tucker Carlson that, like everybody, all other Republicans have an AIPAC handler. Oh, he's the one that said, that's right. I heard that. Yeah. Yeah. So, and it seems like,

you know, I think in the long term, Israel's in trouble because younger Americans on both sides of the aisle are much more skeptical of this kind of unlimited support for Israel. But right now things aren't looking great. And I mean, I'm seeing it, you know, people call me a Hamas supporter, a terrorist supporter all the time, like even more so lately. Yeah. And, you know, yeah, anti-Semitic, even though many of the people we work with who are most opposed to this are Jewish. Same thing with the protests at the colleges, many Jewish students involved. So there's just kind of an atmosphere right now that seems just kind of scary almost.

And like, again, people, you know, just constantly being called a terrorist supporter. And you know, for the record, I am not a supporter of Hamas. I am simply an opponent of the US helping Israel commit these crimes. And I don't see any justification for doing it no matter how evil October 7th was, how many civilians were killed then. It doesn't justify killing civilians now.

And this is a Christian principle. It's something I just wanna talk about about with you, like we were talking about a little before we recorded. So I'm Catholic. I returned to the church last year. I had like a big reversion and it's been really great. And you know, Catholics, you know, there's a lot of Catholics in America who support Israel.

It's really just a thing in the US. But for the most part, you know, you look at the popes, the history of the view on Israel, you know, there's no justification for basically being a Catholic Zionist. And I know you're evangelical, and there's a whole, you know, wing of the evangelicals in the US who are just, I mean, I don't know how to explain, like, their support. It's like they'll justify anything that Israel does. I'm just curious if I could ask you, your theological view, how does it differ from those other evangelicals? Dave, that'd be, maybe I can come on to your podcast

and we can talk about that. It has been one of the most, if I can speak freely, one of the most confusing, I wouldn't call it a moral crisis, I would call it, but I would say an ecclesiological crisis for me a bit. I've always been, I mean, theologically I am, I mean, I believe in the full inspiration authority of the Bible. I have very conservative viewpoints. I believe in traditional marriage. I'm against abortion. I'm an advocate of nonviolence. So, years ago I wrote a book on warfare and violence and I was a just war guy. In my reading of

the New Testament, I became, I don't like to turn pacifist. I like to get theological, Christocentric nonviolence as a means of fighting against evil. As King said, we militantly fight against evil, but we use nonviolent means. So, that kind of, you know, oddly enough, when I started taking the Sermon on the Mount more literally, evangelicals kind of were suspicious about me. So, I think I'm a capital E evangelical in the theological sense of the term, and it's really my opposition to killing women and children as a means of accomplishing justice. To me, it's just that's a basic Christian principle, and to see so many evangelicals not agree with that has been confusing to me. I don't know, the only Christians that I've seen speak out

against what's going on have been more liberal, more progressive, you know? And so, it's not hard to find people in like the United Methodist Church or people that are more liberal theologically to be opposed to what's going on. But I don't, I mean, it's a small handful of evangelicals that have kind of said, yeah, we don't think we should be supporting this. Call it a genocide, call it not, there's war crimes, there's deliberately targeting women and children as a means of accomplishing justice, to me that is a demonic ethic. It's so distant from Jesus and I just, it's been confusing to me really. So my faith in Jesus hasn't been shaken at all. And I've, you know, I literally, right before I talk to you, I did a podcast with one of

the leaders of Jews for Jesus, a Christian Israeli Jew who, you know, we might have different perspectives on some of the political stuff, but a lot of overlap. He mourns the destruction of Palestinians. But I've had many Palestinian Christian friends on who are evangelical in their commitment, you know, and they're, you know, I just talked to Muthur Isaac recently and they're just bewildered. They don't understand why American evangelicals are supportive of what's going on. It's been really confusing. Sorry, it's a rambling question. Yeah, no. I mean, so is it like, you know, because this is what I hear as an outsider, because, you

know, you always hear about dispensationalism. Yeah, I was raised very dispensational. Yeah. Yeah. Is that like a factor, you think? I think that's, I think it's, yes. There is, it's a spectrum. There's hardcore dispensationalists who are actively promoting the idea that the modern state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy and that Christians have a theological obligation

to support the modern state of Israel. That is definitely a strong viewpoint. I think there's a more passive endorsement of a version of that by Christians. The average Christian of the pew, I think they read the Bible, they see Israel, the God's people, they look over on the map today and they see the land of Israel, and they're like, oh, there's just this intuitive like, this is the good people, these are on God's side. But I don't think they've really thought through some of the theological nuances of that. And then there's another set that wouldn't be disemstational, that would be reform, that would be, you know, endorse some kind of covenant theology, maybe conservative Catholics, who I think they would endorse Israel more for just political reasons. You know, I've got

a friend who, he's not Zionist theologically, but he's adamantly in support of Israel because he sees, you know, he just is persuaded by the political, I would say propaganda, he would say truth. So yeah, it's a whole range of beliefs. And then there's just, people don't care. People don't, they follow the news and whatever the news tells them to care about, they care about. And like you said, when we're distracted with a lot of domestic stuff, people just don't really know or care what's going on. It's really sad. I don't, not sure what to do with it. How do you? Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting. Like, like I said, it's actually, so I kind of lean more kind of traditional Catholic, more conservative.

And again, I'm still, it's kind of new to me again. I'm kind of figuring my way around the church, but I actually see from kind of more traditional Catholics, more criticism of Israel. And this is, I think, specifically kind of an American thing that even like kind of what you consider like progressive Catholics, like they're just not even like really interested in the whole thing. They have their whole other kind of agendas. But then globally, most Catholics are basically, you know, would have the same view as me. I mean, look at the Pope. You know, it's not like Pope Francis is aligned with traditional Catholics, but I think his view of what's happening in Gaza is kind of the moderate Catholic view. And that's been shown by the popes over the years. I mean, you mentioned just war theory. Like I've been kind of studying that recently. And this is something Pope John Paul II said, and Pope Francis has kind of reaffirmed it, that like with modern weaponry,

it's very hard to justify any war using just war theory because they're against, you know, the proportionality and everything has to be taken into account. And there's just no justification for killing so many like civilians and everything. So I really think if we had a Christian foreign policy, even taking in mind all the different denominations, I just think it would look much different. And yet Christianity has been used to... People have invoked it to justify supporting these atrocities, and it's really a shame. Pete There is an underlying militarism that pervades the American evangelical church. And I think, you know, there's probably, it probably goes back to the rise of the moral majority, the late 70s, early 80s,

when to be a Bible-believing Christian meant to be a right-wing Christian and with the rise of, you know, Reagan, who was, you know, almost like a patron saint in the evangelical church in the 80s, and yet was very militaristic, you know. So I think, I remember growing up that to be a Christian was, you know, you're against gay marriage, you're against abortion, you're pro-military. You know, these things, these, you know, all these boxes kind of get checked off and they go together. So the thought, this is when I maintained my belief in traditional marriage, maintained my opposition to abortion.

And then, but when I started embracing nonviolence and being more like you, like critical of militarism and just, this is not Christian at all. Like people were like, whoa, so you're liberal now? Like, no, it's from reading the Bible that I got this. It's not, you know. So I do think that the marriage between the political right and the conservative evangelical church, I think that it plays a significant role, I think, in how they view US conflicts, you know. Yeah. And I think another thing for a lot of people, like American Christians, we're more conservative. Like they see kind of the people who are in the US who are like pro-Palestinian

and it does seem like a very left-wing thing. I think for a lot of people it is as simple as like, oh, that's their side. I'm not on their side. So whatever, I'm pro-Israel. And like they don't really think about it much. But hopefully people like you can make a difference. I appreciate you kind of speaking out about this because career-wise, it probably doesn't help you too much. No, no, not at all. No, it's not fun being called a Hamas supporter and anti-Semite and all this stuff, even though I have many Jewish friends. I mean, all the, but I, when I get those lazy slurs and accusations,

it's, I'm pretty resilient to that. It's just not, it's just so idiotic that it doesn't, you know, it doesn't really stick. But well, Dave, man, I've taken you over an hour and this has been super fun getting to know you more. And thank you. Thanks so much, man, for, cause I mean, you take a lot of hits too.

And you just, every single day you wake up and do your thing. And I just want to, I will mention this in the intro, but antiwar.com, the podcast, it's 25, 30 minutes every single morning or five days a week, right? Where you just give a factual update

on what happened the day before. And it's just, it's an incredibly good way to stay informed. It's not, I even love how your voice is just calm. You just, you're just reporting the news. You're not, it doesn't sound activisty. It doesn't sound, you know, like, cause sometimes activists don't make good journalists, you know, like you just do really, really,

really good, thorough journalism. You cite your sources every time, which I love. So yeah, I highly recommend people following your podcast and the website, antiwar.com, if you want any information on Yemen, on Russia, Ukraine, whatever, like you guys do incredible journalism. It's my go-to source.

So thanks again for being on The Al Jarrad, Dave. Yeah, thank you, Preston. I really appreciate that. Hey, so I'm launching a new season on the podcast, The Doctor and the Nurse. World renowned brain coach, Dr. Daniel Lehmann joins me as a co-host as we dive deep into the mind and the brain of everything high performance. I've been fascinated for years as I've worked with top athletes, high powered CEOs, Hollywood actors, and all high performers in all types of different fields

of how they break through pressure, ignite drive, how they overcome distractions, how they put fear on the bench, how they tap into flow state, put fear on the bench, how they tap into flow state and just dominate all these different areas of high performance. So on this season, my good friend, Dr. Daniel Lehmann will break down what is actually going on in the brain in these different areas and I will give actionable tools to be able to use and apply in your life.

So buckle up the doctor and the nurse on the David Nurse Show coming at you. Hey friends, Rachel Grohl here from the Hearing Jesus podcast. Do you ever wonder if you're truly hearing from God? Are you tired of trying to figure it all out on your own? The Hearing Jesus podcast is here to help you live out your faith every single day, and together we will break down these walls by digging deeply into God's Word in a way that you can really understand it. If this sounds like the kind of journey you want to go on, please join us on the Hearing Jesus podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever

you listen to podcasts.