Theology in the Raw - What Does Theological Discipleship in the Church Look Like? Elizabeth Woodsen

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

Elizabeth Woodson, a Bible teacher and theologian, discusses her passion for Bible study, discipleship, and theological education in the local church. She shares her personal journey of searching for the relevance of the gospel in her own life and how it led her to pursue theological education. Elizabeth emphasizes the importance of creating pathways for discipleship and theological education within the church, so that believers can understand and apply the truths of Scripture in their everyday lives. She also discusses the challenges of busyness and the need for churches to provide meaningful and accessible opportunities for learning and growth. In a post-COVID world, churches have had to explore new opportunities for theological education and discipleship. People are hungry for connection, support, and answers to their questions. There is an opportunity to disciple adults in the basics of the faith and help them grow deeper in their faith. The early church valued theological education and had a rigorous catechism process for new converts. The church today can learn from the past and prioritize discipleship. Singleness in the church is often misunderstood and undervalued. The church needs to have a deeper theology of singleness and provide community and support for single individuals. The church should prioritize friendships and create a culture where singleness is seen as a beautiful season. The church needs to navigate the volatile political climate with grace, honoring people and holding true to the teachings of Jesus. Elizabeth Woodson is a Bible teacher, theologian, author, and the Founder of The Woodson Institute, an organization that equips believers to understand and grow in their Christian faith. With over a decade of experience in church ministry, Elizabeth is passionate about creating pathways for discipleship and theological education in the local church. Elizabeth is a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary with a Masters in Christian Education. She is also the author of Embrace Your Life: How To Find Joy When The Life You Have Is Not The Life You Hoped For and From Beginning To Forever: A Study of the Grand Narrative of Scripture. Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Friends, welcome back to another episode of Theology in the Raw. My guest today is Mia Hughes, who is an Ottawa-based journalist for the Think Tank Environmental Progress. And she primarily covers issues related to gender with a particular focus on the controversy of pediatric medical transition and how trans rights collide with the rights of women and the LGB community. Mia previously covered the gender issue for the post millennial and has been published in the critic lesbian and gay news and Mia is a British mother of three living in Ottawa,

Canada. This is going to be a bit of a more serious conversation and a very controversial and a very controversial conversation. I reached out to Mia because she authored the recently released WPATH files. And if you know nothing about what that means, we talk about it very early on in the. All right, I'm here with Elizabeth Woodson. All right. I'm here with Elizabeth Woodson. Elizabeth, thanks so much for coming on theology in the raw. I'm really excited about this conversation. Yeah. Now I'm excited to be here. I'm excited for what we're going to talk about. So I told you just offline second

ago that my, every now and then I asked my patron supporters, Hey, who should I have on the podcast? And I'll get a wide range of people. And I usually look for, is there a name that kind of keeps popping up? Cause you'll get, you know, you know, a hundred people deal, give me like 90 different names or whatever, but your name came up multiple times. So I was like, Oh, all right. I gotta, I gotta have Elizabeth on. So that's what is, that's the background for this conversation. You have a passion for Bible study and discipleship and theological education in the church. Where did that come from?

You could take us back as far as you want to go. I mean, is this childhood, teenage, young adult, wherever it really, wherever that spark first was first lit. Definitely. It'll be like back in 1984 now. We're not going to go back that far. But I'd like to tell the story by starting by letting folks know I grew up in a Christian household. And so my parents are wonderful people.

My understanding of what it means to walk in the way of Jesus, a lot of it comes from them. But what happened when I became a believer as an early teen is Jesus is just what we did. So there wasn't much that changed in my life. And so there was always this question for me of I could have all the right Bible answers, I can do all the right things, but why does the gospel really matter? Like, why does it have any bearing on my life? Why do I choose this instead of Hinduism or Buddhism?

Like, why do I choose the way of Jesus? And so that sent me on a really long journey of just searching and wanting to sit underneath really good biblical teaching. Like I just wanted to learn what the Bible said. I was super hungry and looking back, I really believe the Lord just implanted that in me because I wasn't going to stop until I got to the point where I was like, okay, this is the clarity that I've been looking for.

And so there was this one part for me, there's these years of just searching and sitting underneath teaching and getting my questions answered. There's also this aspect of I was in college and had a college experience, I was like many folks and so I was just trying all sorts of creative things to deal with the issues I was having, whatever was going on, good and bad. And I just kept coming to this conclusion that, oh, the gutter that I found myself in once again, whatever person, place or thing that I'm using to fill the hole, to ease the pain is not working. And maybe this God thing really is what God says it is,

which is really to supply all that we need to make it through life. And so I think it's the merging of those two together and the Lord providing some divinely orchestrated experiences that got me to the place of, okay, now I know and I see clearly, I'm super passionate about helping other people see clearly too. And for me it is, how can I take these theological ideas? How can I take the truth about scripture and bring it home to you? So when you are in the pickup line at the school on a

Tuesday, you know why it matters and why it is worth the time for us to study and why it really makes a difference for the life we have both now and for eternity. And so that, all of those experiences led me to seminary down here in Dallas, Dallas Electrical Seminary. That led me into some roles on staff at churches. And so I'm really passionate about discipleship in the local church.

I love my seminary education, but I do believe there are some things that you should be able to learn about your faith and not have to leave the church to do that. And so I am passionate about taking the experiences I've had, the training I've had in different roles of writing curriculum and thinking deeply about these things and how do we get them to people in a way that's accessible and understandable? these things, then how do we get them to people in a way that's accessible and understandable? How can we do that and come alongside ministry leaders to really provide those opportunities? But I worked in church almost for eight, 10 years, just doing discipleship ministry, loved it, love helping people see the beauty of what God allowed me to discover years before. So that's kind of like my journey along the way of why discipleship and theological

education matter to me, because it was something that the Lord used to impact my own life. And then I'm just pouring out of that for other folks. Pete I agree. I think the local church as the social location for discipleship is huge. And I'm a huge fan of seminary education, public college, taught and everything. And I think most seminary leaders would agree with this that, however, if the church was doing what it should be doing, maybe we would need seminaries and Bible colleges. So while there's this gap in education, I'm so thankful for theological education. But in your, because I'm sure you've been to many different churches, traveling around, speaking, everything. I'm

sure you've seen a lack of discipleship happening in churches and discipleship going really well. Like, what are those two images that maybe came up in people's minds? Like, what do those look like? What does it look like when there's a, when it's just robust discipleship happening? And what does it look like when there's little discipleship happening? Yeah, I think one, you can kind of see the difference just on face value, programmatic wise.

And so I do think in the context I usually speak to is non-denominational evangelical environments. And I do think it's interesting to think about the choices we've made over the years and what we have engaged in and given up on. I grew up in a Baptist church, and so Sunday school was bread and butter for us. And so you have these dedicated environments where people are able to learn things outside of the Sunday morning sermon. I love really good preaching.

It's necessary to the life of the church, but we also need other areas where people can go deeper. And so at Face Value, I'll see churches where they just don't have anything. Like it just is Sunday morning service. They may have a groups. I think group environments are really great for mostly community,

more so than this dedicated deep dive place. Cause you have to have a unique leader to be able to do that. And most folks are just trying to hold it together and put the snacks out and make sure that the lesson is done and get ready for the group meeting. And so I will see churches just not have opportunities available for people to learn anything beyond just Sunday morning. And then I'll see the opposite of theirs,

just this robust options for people to delve in. But then on a deeper level, it's the type of community that that church has, right? So you just see spiritual maturity, birth and life as members, you see churches that they're just really hospitable. They are able to navigate maybe some of the more complex realities of what it means to engage in community with other people. So they're not shallow. Like you see like, oh, y'all have some really deep relationships and deep relationships are created by us navigating the highs and the lows of life. And so what I will see is the fruit of maturity

present in the congregation and in everyone who's a part of that church community. And to me, that fruit is an overflow of, yeah, we're just, we're going beyond just sitting here and receiving. You have a church also that's serving, right? So that's another aspect to me. They're serving all different areas.

And again, the people who are serving are able to pray for you. They're able to answer your questions about the faith. They're able to journey with you. They will show up for you in ways that they're ministry, that it doesn't have to direct them to do that because they're learning how to be the church. And so to me, it's the fruit that I see in people, but on the face value, again, it is,

does the church have an opportunity for me to learn or do I have to do that on my own? Can you give an example? Like think of a church that's just really crushing it in terms of like theological education, discipleship. It's not at the expense of community, but it's all kind of intertwined. You don't need to give a name of a church necessarily unless you want to, but like what does that look like? You know? Yeah. You know, I think it's Sunday schools, it's classes, evening class. Like is it, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is, it is an opportunities for people to learn outside

of Sunday morning. So I appreciate churches that do what works for their congregation. So sometimes it is, it's all on Sunday. We got people here on Sunday, we're just gonna keep them here. It's Sunday school. And you have classes that are going through whole books of the Bible.

You have classes that are talking about questions of, what do we believe as Christians? About doctrine and about church history and about things about formation. So these core foundational items that you have churches that they're regularly offering these classes, they're not waiting for you to figure out what it means to be a Christian, they're gonna tell you.

And so usually I will see, you can go to Upside or you go to the church and you see it on the announcements, you'll see a list of opportunities for people to participate in, whether that's online, because virtual COVID provided a whole new virtual reality for us, or that's in person. But they, those are not groups. So it's not that, oh, these are small groups. This is our equipping, our Sunday school area, our Institute, there's all sorts of nice people use for it. But when it's done well to me, I clearly see some clear learning, um, opportunities

for people in the church. What do you do with the pervasive problem of busyness among people? Because I could hear pastors who say, even if I do provide the opportunities, people are so busy. They're racing their kids to soccer games. They have this going on, that going on. They're working too much. They're too many vacations, whatever it is. Like do you see that too? And how do you, how, how, how can the leaders help address that? Yeah. I think one, it's a part of meeting people where they're at another part of calling them higher. Right? So there is this aspect of, I think one, it's a part of meeting people where they're at, and another part of calling them higher, right?

So there is this aspect of, I'm starting to see people do stuff in modules. Versus in maybe years ago, a couple years ago, you might do something where it's like, we'll have like a 10 or 12 week class. People are like, look, I can't commit to that. But maybe I can't commit to six weeks, right? So we're going to break up the content. We're going to switch the model. And I think that's what I've learned over the years.

The principle remains the same, but I'm going to use a different model to try to engage and respond to where people are at, respond to the difference in attention span and how people are learning based upon the information that we're consuming online. So there's an aspect of meeting people where they're at. I think there's also an aspect of calling people higher, because people aren't too busy to go to the football game. They're not too busy to go to their spin class. They're not too busy to do all of these activities, right?

And so it's this tension, because I know it's like, we don't wanna go too hard for our people, but it is, this is what it means to love the Lord, that we would love him with our minds. And so as I'm trying to meet you where you're at, trying to provide you opportunities that are catered to where your life is,

as a ministry leader, I do want to call you higher and ask you to reconsider what you love and what is most valuable to you. And maybe we are putting our time and our energy in some places that we need to reallocate to spending time with God in these learning environments. I wonder, too, is it too... It might be too simplistic.

I don't know, but like, it seems that people will do what they find is meaningful. Yep. And so I've been part, I've been parts of small groups that I'll just say are not meaningful. Like they're not, I'll be there for a year or two years. And it's like, eh. And when they cancel it, hey, sorry, you know, the leader's sick, we can't, I'm like, oh good. I'll be there for a year or two years. It is like, eh. And when they cancel it, Hey, sorry, you know, the leader sick. We can't, I'm like, Oh good. I'll be gone. But then

I've been part of other groups where it's like, if it got canceled, I'm like, Oh gosh, no, we had to wait in a full week because there's a deep connection there. There's authenticity. It's led well. If there's teaching it's it's gosh, it's impactful. I don't know. So is that like, like, okay, like people have it's, gosh, it's impactful. I don't know. So is that like, like, okay, like people have all these other things, distractions and stuff, but if, if there was something just profoundly meaningful, I don't know, is that too naive to say maybe more people would come and be committed? I think, I think you've hit something on the head. Cause I do, what fascinates me is how generations are different. And so before people just would

show up to stuff. Cause that's just what you did. Like we go to church, we go to Sunday school, that's just what we do. Now people don't do that. That world's gone. That world's gone. That world's gone. And so as a ministry leader,

I think one of the changes that we have to lean into is I have to be able to paint the why before the what. I gotta tell you why this is valuable for you before you show up to actually do it. the why before the what. I gotta tell you why this is valuable for you before you show up to actually do it. And so painting a vision. And I like to talk about how our formation is not neutral. We are choosing to be discipled and formed,

and we can choose the way of the Lord, we can choose the way of the culture, and there's some really clear fruit production that we see on whichever path we choose. But it is, I think it's getting to that, how can I show people why this is the more beautiful way? And that's some creativity and not creativity, we're making stuff up, but creativity in, do I have a clear understanding of why I'm asking someone to commit this time, what that's going to produce for them? And can I communicate that to them in a way they're like,

oh, okay, okay, I'll give you a class. I'll give you a class to see if what you're talking about is actually true and hopefully by the end they will realize that it is. Are you currently on staff at a church? I didn't, like I said- I am not, I'm not. No, I serve at my local church, but not on staff, yeah. Okay, and are you at the village?

Were you associated with the village? I was, I used to work on staff at the village, yeah. Okay, maybe that's right, okay, okay, okay. Do you find that you can better do what you're passionate at doing, not being on staff at a church? Like being just kind of neutral, does that help or is it hurt? I think in some aspects it is helpful

because I get to share the ideas with more people. And I think that's one of the reasons that I believe the Lord opened a door for me to roll off staff. There's just a lot of fruit that we did during my time at the Village. And I wanted to share that with churches who that's not where they're at, but they see the need. They see where their people are at. They're like, can you help us get there?

But then there's also the aspect of I miss just kind of digging in with one group of people. And so I do teach Bible study at my church. And so I have that kind of equipping space, but to cast vision, do some of those other things, those were really fun at the Village. And I just come in as a consultant or a voice of leadership versus trying to make decisions and actually shift stuff around. Now the village is a little unrealistic

in the sense that it already has a, you know, you got a high powered preacher, you have like, you already have kind of a culture that already values theological discipleship, theological education discipleship, right? Like that, if you're part of the church, that's just kind of in the air. Other churches might not have that.

How do you get a church that might not have that culture to move toward a culture where you're kind of the odd personality if you're like not into wanting to go deeper in your faith? Yeah. Yeah. I think one, there are probably two different areas that to me I've seen impact come. And one is when you're able to have a senior pastor cast vision from the pulpit, I think that that changes something. If you've been in church and involved in any way, you know that stuff moves when the senior pastor says, we're gonna do this, that's the direction we're gonna go in.

And so using that preaching time amongst other things to be able to kind of slowly take our church in this direction, introduce this new idea, this new emphasis, but then also creating spaces, just Bible study, right? Bible study, you don't always need to start with these really high power theological classes. Can we just get people in the text and to show them, because this is other, this is another obstacle that I see is people are like, oh, that's for those other people. Those are for ministry leaders, that's for pastors. I'm just here serving the kids ministry.

I don't need all that stuff. And so can we show people that yes, you can do it and yes, it's for you. And I think being able to do that in a Bible study environment is a beautiful place for folks to start. And healthy living can be super challenging these days. Our food doesn't have as much nutrition as it used to, and many people like myself, we

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and extremely potent nutritional supplement. So if you want to take ownership of your health, it starts with AG1. Try AG1 and get a free one-year supply of vitamin D3K2 and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. Just go to drinkag1.com forward slash TITR. That's drinkag1 forward slash TITR. Check it out. Early on in my Christian journey, like it seemed like Bible studies, studied the Bible. That was what a Bible study was. And that was just part of kind of your church rhythm.

But then there was this, at least in my church culture, almost like a, well, they identified a problem though is that people would sit in a room studying the Bible and wouldn't know each other. Like there was such a lack of community, lack of mission. It was just cognitive only lack of spiritual formation even. But then there was a swing to where it almost like don't open the Bible. It's not a Bible study. It's a, it's a mission group. It's a, it's a community group. It's a, it's a life group. It's, but don't dare open the Bible. They wouldn't quite, quite say that, but it was kind of, it was almost like, this isn't a Bible study. Like make

sure you don't call it that. Like, can we do both? Like it's, or have you seen, have you seen that in your experience too, almost an aversion to the old school Bible study that was very non-relational, but then now kind of the pendulum swings too far? Yeah, I think that's exactly what happened. That we just saw it was just real static, it felt stale. People felt like people were going through the motions. They're like, hey, our people aren't changing. And we know that change happens in community. And so I'd like much of the things that happen in church culture, we swing the pendulum all the other way. I do think Simple Church played a big part in this, at least in an evangelical environment was a book that was released. And it just kind of

talked about, hey, we're just going to pare everything down really to the preaching and to these community groups. And that's where ministry happens. And you saw a lot of churches get rid of programming in response to that. And so I do think that there was some benefit to the argument that was presented in the book, but I think we have swung the pendulum too far because now we have people that are really connected relationally, but maybe don't have the theological depth they need to live life well as believers amongst each other and in the world. And so it's like, can we just bring it back to the middle? We don't have to go all the way back to the other side. What was that book you just

mentioned? Simple church. Oh, simple. Wait, who wrote that? Do you remember Tom Rainer? Tom Rainer. So that was the book that, okay, that makes sense. Yeah. So it's sort of, yeah, like too much. It was kind of arguing against programming and simple not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that.

I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that.

I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. like, how long would it be? When's what's too long? What, how much Bible would it be Bible study every week? Would it be every other week and community, you know, or like,

how do you do evangelism, spiritual formation, Bible study fellowship, and all these things in the hour and a half, two hours short, is that too long? Like just get as practical as you are. You have free, like you, you have the reins to just create a whole like Bible study curriculum for a church. What does that look like? Yeah, yeah. No, I will tell you what has worked for me and the environments I've been in. I do always like, I like to emphasize, do what works for your people. So for instance, the Bible study that I have the opportunity to teach at, at my church now, we meet on Saturday morning. It is gender based, so it's only women. I don't think that that is like the only model. I think that men and women in Bible study together

is beautiful. But at my church, it is a women's Bible study. We meet a Saturday morning, the men meet at like seven and the women meet at 9.30. That works for us. Your face is like, I'm not getting up at seven o'clock. Oh, sorry. I've been in other churches where we've met in the evening.

And so again, there is, it's a 7pm in the evening. You might have a day offering for your folks who stay at home during the day, they work, they are, they work from home, they stay at home parents, right? So it is, I've had Tuesdays, I've had Wednesdays, right? So the day of the week is what works for the rhythms of your church. Whatever model you choose, stick with it for like two years before you start to tinker because it allows people to gain trust. It allows you to have, you know,

you're gonna have hiccups as you do anything new. So if you get a hiccup, don't stop, you know, see how it goes over a longer period of time and then reassess. But you choose a day of the week, I think an hour and a half to two hours is a good amount of time. And that's not just sitting and listening to teaching.

The models that I've used integrate both small group discussions. So you have this relational aspect with listening to teaching. The women will come in and they will, I've had it where they will go through homework. So there's lots of great curriculum options out there for you to use. They go to small group, they talk for 30, 45 minutes.

You have a leader who's been trained to do those types of things to facilitate that discussion. The one we're able to be responsible and accountable for the homework. And to me that says, I'm gonna show up to this. I'm not just gonna receive, I'm gonna participate. And I believe that's where a lot of learning happens. And then after that discussion, you can go to a different room.

It can be in the same room. Then you have a large group teaching. And so that teacher is able to summarize that week's lesson, is able to answer the questions that might have popped up during the homework. But what happens is when the students discuss before the teacher teaches, they're not just going to regurgitate

what the teacher says. It enables them to help think for themselves in that way. And so what's the curriculum that I would suggest? Go through books of the Bible. Go through an entire, just, you need something that's a six week, go through the book of Ephesians. Go through the Pauline Epistles if you need something shorter. Go through a gospel.

Go through a book of the Old Testament, but in choosing whole books of the Bible, we teach our people how to read the Bible. And so topical studies are great, but I think topical, you actually need a really solid understanding of scripture in order to have a really solid understanding of a topical study. Discussion, teaching, homework, hour and a half, two hours, kind of a sweet spot, whatever works. You can have it be six weeks long. I have people who do it, there's 12 weeks long. Do what works for your church. To me, the principles that are important is, is somebody going to teach? Do they have an opportunity to discuss? Is there a curriculum that gives them an opportunity

to do homework so that during the week they're reading or they're studying however much that homework is? And lastly, choosing a time and date that works for the rhythms of your people. What do you do about the problem of quality of teaching? You have a mid-sized church and he, you know, maybe a few different, a couple of dozen different Bible studies, the odds of having a teacher who's theologically equipped, maybe not necessarily seminary training, but somebody who's like, knows what they're talking about. Who's also a good teacher. Who's also a good Bible study facilitator. Cause those are all different. Like for me, I feel like I can teach them a stage a lot. That's so much easier than facilitating a Bible study of 15 people. Like I get so, I, I'm so terrible at like, what do you do

with the person that talks too much? You know, what about the person that's actually spouting off heresy? But genuinely this like, you know, says something like, Oh my gosh, like, do you call it out and make it all off? You know, like I, I, I, that's so nervous. Like those environments are, so it takes really a gifted person to lead a really high quality Bible study. That's going to have the meaningfulness. That's going to keep people there, make people want to come. Am I right? Is that pretty rare to have that skill? And how do you do about that? I think most people can be really good communicators.

They just need some training. And it might mean you need to be a part of a cohort or you need to take a class at a seminary, or people who are on staff at that church, or who lead in that church, you have that gift, you're able to train up other people. And so I do think that the model that I've suggested requires that you have leaders that you're investing in and raising up in training.

Cause even facilitating, like I always give the announcement. I'm just like, look, if you have a lot of wisdom you want to share, make sure other people get to share their wisdom too. Like, let's just, you know, overtalker at the group. If you're an overtalker, we love you. We love you. But it is, it's, it's, it requires leadership training and investment. And that happens over time. I create Bible studies where I have teaching videos because I know that not every church has a great teacher or has the bandwidth to do that. There might be obstacles.

I love when I see churches raise up teachers to teach, but if you don't have that in your church yet, there are other options for you to just say, I can facilitate. We're going to watch the video and then I'm gonna facilitate and that works well for a lot of people. And there's lots of curriculum you're saying that has that already, right? Yeah. Like they can, you don't, yeah.

The quality of teaching is already kind of done for people. You just need to be able to facilitate the discussion. And you're big on homework. I've heard you mentioned homework a few times, like have something that people are working on ahead of time. Okay, yeah. Maybe don't call it homework, Maybe call it your spiritual growth opportunities, spiritual growth opportunities, homework to the said people.

It's just people like, no, I don't want to do that. What have you found in our post COVID world now that just shook up everything, right? A lot of churches maybe went back to just the way things were. Other churches were forced to explore new opportunities and they kind of stuck with some of those new rhythms. What have you seen in theological education, discipleship in the church, in a post-COVID world that are really exciting for you? Like these churches too? Yeah. I've seen the leaders I talk to, their people are hungry. So I have seen them have people come back

to be able to be involved in these type of environments. I think, probably, people just want to be connected to other people after years of that not happening. But also, there's just been a lot of hard and heavy things that people have had to walk through in this season and wanting a place where they can find answers and just have the support and encouragement

along the way. So to me, that's encouraging because it's opportunity that people want to learn. They want to be a part of these types of opportunities that we're providing at our church. What I also hear is that people are getting an influx of adults who need to be discipled in the basics of the faith.

Like they're like, I have these people come and I talk about Abraham and Isaac and they have no idea who I'm talking about. And in one sense, again, I grew up in the church so I learned that stuff in Sunday school as a kid. And so I started asking questions, it's like, if I was an adult and I come to church, where would I learn those things

if there's not a space for that? And so that is an opportunity that excites me. How do we get adults up to speed about the Christian faith? And even when I teach, I stop assuming that people know the stories. I stop assuming that they know all the dots. They don't. And so how can, even in my teaching, I present more explanation of those things, but it is, there's a hunger and there's an opportunity to help people grow deeper in their faith in a way that I think we assumed because people were just a part of the system of the church in the past. There was a, do you know the name Clinton Arnold? He's a professor at Talbot School

of Theology, been there for, gosh, three decades, maybe, maybe more. Heavily involved in this church. Anyway, he gave a paper, this is, gosh, I'm going back 25 years, where it was all on the early church's value of theological education in the church. And I believe people could fact check this for me. I believe he said something like when people were converted, there was a requirement of like a three year, very rigorous catechism or whatever, where it just was part of your conversion experience. It was like seminary.

It was like when you got saved, it was like an early church kind of seminary that they went through. Like, are you, you're shaking your head. Do you know about this? Yeah, no, I took some time to study that. Cause it just, cause I'm all, I, to me it is the church has not always struggled with discipleship. Like many of the problems we can assume, Oh, we don't know what to do. It's like, no, the church has done this well. There might've been some shifts in what we've done in our current contemporary generation,

but how can we learn from the past? And so to see that, to see, you know, that the early church catechism, a word that we might rub up against, but that's what they would call it, was three years. Like it just, you could not be welcomed fully into the church until you went through this process. Like you had to, this is what got me, Preston. You had to have somebody vouch for you. Like before you got baptized, somebody had to say, yes, Preston is in fact living in the way of Jesus. He is living differently because I have been walking with him. I was like, this is wild. This is wild. I was like, if we did this today.

But yeah, it just, and what they would teach them, whether it was the Creeds or it was the story of the Bible, one document that, one early document, the D.K., just talks about these elements of the Christian faith that they wanted to pass down. And there's a beauty in that. I love church history, and I think there's a lot for us to learn

from those who have gone before, but it was, oh, they didn't beat around the bush, right? They were like, if you want to be a part of the community, we are going to make sure that you are walking heavy in some sense of what it means to be a Christian. And it just, I love reading about that stuff. So that's why my head was shaken when you were talking about it. As pastors think about that, like if I did that today, my church size would dwindle. But I do wonder if we put more emphasis in the numerical numbers than in the depth of discipleship like purse. Would you rather pastor a church of 150 and 140 are just really,

they're all they're hardcore. They're diving deep. Or would you rather have a church of 1500 where it's just your constant dragging people kicking and screaming to go deeper on any level? Yeah. I don't know. Personally, I don't know. I'd rather have a smaller church, I think. What do you do with the hard topics that come up in Bible studies? It's one thing to read a book of Bible, people are discussing it and stuff, but what happens when questions around sexuality, gender, abortion, Americanism, whatever, like just the stuff that can cause Bible studies to just halt. Like, where does that fit in with...

Yeah. Again, I think that fits in for me in training. So I think there's an aspect, there's kind of three, couple of different ways I think about it. One is what can I equip my leader with? Like whether that is we're going to have a training before, I'm gonna walk you through some talking points. If somebody says this, this is what our church believes about, whether it is abortion, whether it's sexuality, whether it's politics, this is kind of where we believe, and this is what you can say to your group members. And so being able to equip your folks with that is super, super helpful. I think also letting them know,

okay, hey, I don't have an answer, let's go find Elizabeth. And she'll be able to talk us through that. And so when do you kind of escalate it? Empowering your people, but then giving them the point of, this is when you can use me as an excuse to go and find me and I can talk them through it. You should, hopefully churches have leaders

that are trained at some level to talk about the hard things. And then lastly, I think it is helping give language for agree to disagree. Let's talk about this offline because some conversations can derail a small group meeting very, very quickly. So yeah, so I think it falls into those categories of having responses, escalating into another leader and then just saying, Hey, let's grab coffee. This is a coffee conversation.

This isn't small group conversation, but always provide an opportunity for people's questions to be answered. The context in which that happens might be different. That's true. If a church already had, I'm just thinking out loud, say on, on all or most of the hot topics, say the church had even a series of videos that either they produced that address these things saying, here's where our church is at on these questions, you know, or maybe the outsource that maybe they took the Bible project or, you know, the, the Woodson Institute, what does it say?

Hey, this, what this person out there said, we basically line up with that. So go watch that. Then they can just point people to those deeper resources. So like you said, it doesn't get so bogged down in the Bible study. What about podcasting? And I don't, so I'm a podcaster obviously. And I've often wondered like, what is the ecclesiology of podcast? Like podcasting just kind of this other thing that's out there that has kind of come alongside the church. But I've often been asking the question, like, podcasting, which has become so popular, especially post 2020, how can it be integrated into the life of, of the church? Cause a lot of people, they're so busy, but they're still listening to hours of podcasts in a week. Like, you know, have you thought about, or you have a podcast, I'm on your website here. I mean, is that, yeah,

yeah. I think again, it's creativity. You know, how do I use the podcast? For me, everything's a learning process. I mean, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, or you have a podcast, I'm on your website here, I mean, is that? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think, again, it's creativity. You know, how do I use the podcast? For me, everything's a learning opportunity. And so if I want my people to learn these things, to be able to be exposed to this information, what mediums do I have to communicate that information to them? And so podcasting is, like you said, is a wonderful medium to do that. And so maybe that's, we go deeper in the sermon. Maybe that is, you can listen to the Bible study lesson before you come, right? It's all these opportunities.

Maybe it's a, we need to have three or four conversations about this really hard topic and we're going to bring in people who think differently and we're going to show you how charitable conversation works. And so I think podcasting is a really great tool. I wish that more churches would use, because it does. It gives you an opportunity to have those deeper conversations, but not require people to be in person. Or it's on-demand learning, basically.

I'm just looking at your lineup. You've had some really awesome people out here. Nancy Guthrie, Rasul Berry, Kat Armstrong, JT English. Yeah. So you, oh, you have a whole, I've load more. Oh my gosh, you have a ton of. Do you podcast to provide, like, is this to provide people with like, yeah, just kind of a wide array

of learning opportunities so churches can kind of go and just tap into various... Okay. Yeah. That's the hope is just to provide really, for me, a lot of my learning has happened in the midst of really good conversations. And so I mean, challenged by someone who knows more than I do or thinks differently than I do is how can I, in a really good conversation, talk about things that I think are essential

to our faith? And so that's the task that I do with Starting Place, helping Christians understand what we believe and why those things matter for our everyday lives. And so it's just been really fun to just talk with different folks who've seasoned folks. I learn more probably than I talk on the podcast, but yeah, that's a way that I want to serve people in that discipleship world. I've got a great podcast. You will absolutely love it. It's not widely known, but it's, it's, it's called the listeners commentary. My friend, John Whitaker produces it. It's 20. He goes, he just goes through books of the New Testament. He'll do like, like passage by passage, just like you would any kind of commentary. So he does like an

audio commentary where he'll spend, you know, maybe 25 minutes on Luke chapter two, one to four. He always has like a book introduction. Then he'll just go chunk by chunk. It's not too long, not too short. So you get the depth and then he always weaves in points of application. He's got a doctorate and he's been a pastor for many, many years. So he's, he really, he's got the intelligence of a theologian, but the communication skills of a, of a really good pastor. And it's just, I know I usedologian, but the communication skills of a really good pastor. And it's just, I know I used to just, I used to do it for my devotions.

Especially if I get distracted, it just kept me on track. Cause I'm like looking at the passage and he's going through and I'm just going through verse by verse. And it's just, it's a great, great way to get just raw, clear Bible knowledge with application in the heart of people. So yeah, the Bible, the listener's commentary with John Whitaker. Do you have kids? Are you married? I do not. Single, never married. No kids. How's that been in the church? Single. That's another conversation. That's a great conversation. I think it's been like you think it has been, which is why you asked the question. Oh, yeah.

It is, I would say being a single in the church is challenging because a church doesn't really know what to do with single people except to try to get you married. I think the church has a shallow theology of singleness. To me, singleness is a beautiful season and it has a lot to teach the church about what it means to be a Christian and follow the Lord. But because part of it, I think, is just shifts in culture. A hundred years ago, everybody was married. So, you know, the culture has changed and I think the church is still trying to catch up. But I believe we've idolized marriage in ways that are not godly and do not really know what to do with providing community to people

when the Bible has a really beautiful image and that's family. So if we just lived as we were supposed to based upon scripture, everybody has a seat at the table. We have brothers and sisters, aunties and uncles in the family of faith. The scripture points more towards this larger family where everyone's included than the nuclear family. And I think our Western evangelical culture focuses heavily on that in our generation, not to a detriment. The nuclear family is wonderful and beautiful, but if you don't have one, then where do you belong?

And so, yeah, it's the church has some ways to go. But I try to find community with married folks and single folks, but I've learned to be in church and navigate it as a single person. And sometimes that's easy. Sometimes that's hard. Sometimes I have a voice to say something about it. And sometimes you just pray for things to get better. Yeah. It's a mixed bag, but we got room to grow. That is one of the most succinct summaries of the problem. I think I've ever heard, uh, Mark 10, 29 to 30. Um, he was left behind. I miss, I don't have in front of me, but no one who has left father, mother, houses, brothers, sisters has not gained back in this present life. Homes, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, basically in that culture, people left there, you know, you

convert from Judaism to Christianity. Sometimes you got hosted by your family. So you left behind your family. But Jesus says you get your spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ. So I fully agree. I can be linger here for a second. I, this is a passion of mine. I'm, I'm married, happily married, but I've got lots of friends who are single and it's just just, and I saw that they've turned me on to just the, I would say the theologically anemic view that marriage is sort of built into the promises of God, which is not a single verse in the new Testament that God says, if you do everything right, you will be married. It is the inevitable calling for everybody. What are some things the church does, let's say unintentionally, well-intended that just contributes to this

air of a low view of singleness and an idolatry of marriage? Are there some subtle things that you overhear as a single person? Yeah. Anytime we talk about singleness, we talk about it in connection with marriage. So, it is, how do you date better? Singleness, like every other season, is a spectrum of how people respond to it. But I do think that when we talk about it, it is, how do you escape it?

So, it's marriage, it's dating, how can you survive? You know, we know you're struggling. And it is like, but it's never, this is joyful. This is a blessing. Language, like singleness is a gift, but we talk about it like a select few of you are going to be enlisted into the army of singleness. You know, God puts that on your life, you know,

that you'll be sustained in the wilderness. Instead of it just being, life is beautiful because you have the Lord. And we all have longing. Because sometimes I don't think married people are always honest about marriage until people get married. And you realize, oh, it's not perfect. It's not heaven. It's hard. And you know what else is hard? Oh, singleness.

And maybe if I just learn how to navigate the hard in my single season, if the Lord brings marriage, I'll be better equipped to navigate the hard I find there. Because I've learned to be content in the Lord. But it's small things like, you never hear illustrations about single people, because a lot of times the people who are preaching are single. So, if you do talk about singleness,

it's from the perspective of someone who got married really young or didn't do well with their singleness. I rarely hear from people who are like, you're single and your life is great. Like when I look at you, you're not missing anything. That's not the image we get because usually those aren't the people we hear from. But yeah, it just is,

we don't have anything good to say about it. And when we do, it's usually connected to, it's preparing you for another season and not to live vibrantly in the season that you're in. It's a drudgery to get through, just get through it. Grin and bear it, get through it. Survive, survive. And then it's very transactional.

Then it's like, and if you do that well, God will what? Bless you with... Exactly. He'll reward you with this spouse on the other side, which just gets problematic when people get into late twenties, early thirties, late thirties, early forties. And for whatever reason, if God has not given them that spouse, they think they put the blame on God when it's really the church who has promised something that God is not, which can be theologically very traumatic really for some people.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Oh, this is fine. I did not anticipate even talking about this. This is, golly. I mean, the New Testament of all the religious documents in the world is it prioritized or at least it elevates singleness more than I think any other religious tradition. I mean, we sort of serve a single savior of marital age. That's pretty, and people are like, well, he was sinless. So he couldn't have gotten married. I'm like, hold on. So marriage is sinful all of a sudden. Yeah. I mean, it's yeah. And singleness, for a long time, in Christianity was viewed highly. And I do think when you had the Protestant Reformation

and some of the shifts that happened there, you see singleness kind of come to the back, and marriage go to the foreground. And, yeah, it just is... Life is really beautiful because of Jesus. And so how do we help people? Because everyone's gonna be single at one point in time. If you're married,

at one, eventually, you or your spouse is gonna go see the Lord. And so we all end to heaven single, right? So it's just this singleness is a part of the journey. And again, to me it is, how can we just teach people that what the Lord has given is enough? There's beauty to be found everywhere. There's goodness that the goodness in my life is not necessarily connected to what I have,

but what I'm able to give away. The people that I'm around, like I recently read a book, Solo Planet by Anna Broadway. And she traveled the globe talking to singles all around the world. And she, about their singleness journey, and she just had some really beautiful stories of people doing life with other people in ways. It was just like, oh, that's the gospel of just someone, two singles.

One of them got sick with cancer. And so the other one moved in, one to help the person financially because you can't work anymore, and stayed with them till they were in hospice and planned a final life celebration for them with their family and friends. And when Anna asked him about it,

he's like, this is what it means for us to be believers. We stick with people to the very end. And it just is like, oh, man, that's the kind of community I want. To me, that's transformative. To me, that points me towards Christ. And so just there's so much more for the church. And also I do think people will be better married if they had grown. Because here's what I also think doesn't happen is we don't require singles to be spiritually mature because that happens in marriage. And I do think people would have better marriages if they were more spiritually mature singles.

Do you think, I wonder if our aversion to singleness is because we don't do friendships well. We think that we will be perpetually lonely and depressed if we're not married. But yeah, I think that at least in us in the West, friendships were just not, I don't know, that's a muscle we haven't really exercised very well. What are you currently thinking through and studying right now? I'm sure your brain is always thinking through something. Always moving. I'm thinking about this aspect of secularism, and really to me, you know, some of the work of Charles Taylor, some of the stuff I saw Tim Keller write before he passed in terms of, like, how do we communicate the gospel

to a new generation of people who aren't really concerned about being right before God? Like, they're not, they don't care about sin. They do care about beauty, and they do care about happiness and joy. And so it's like, how do I think about that as a person who communicates truth on a regular basis? And so working on a project right now

called A Better Gospel, and just really how do I look at the gospels that are being provided to people, are these answers for what people are longing for and really show them why the gospel is more beautiful? It is true, but it's also more beautiful. And can I explain that in a way people are like, oh, what you're talking about, I want.

And so that has me deep in the waters of ideas about secularism and expressive individualism and really the ways people learn and communicate in this current moment and how do we use that for how we communicate the truth of the gospel. That's brilliant. I've seen, I haven't read Taylor.

It's a big book. It's a big book. I heard it's not. It's a big book. But from what I hear, it's not an easy one to read. Um, and there's been people that have translated it. I think Jamie Smith has a, yeah, he does. Yeah. Does he? Okay. Yeah. He's, he does. He's a secular. Yeah. He tried to help us. Give us a little, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that's fat. So like, if somebody is not asking what is true, Yeah, he tried to help us out. Give us a little... Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

That's fat. So like if somebody is not asking what is true, they're asking what is beautiful and you answer them with this is true. Is it just kind of missing? Yeah. You're just kind of missing your... You're missing people because we see people believe stuff that's not true. Like they just do. Whatever camp you fall in, people believe stuff that's not true. They just do. Oh, whatever camp you fall in,

people believe stuff that's not true. And I think because how the way we think and what we value has shifted, we are moved by our affections and what's beautiful. So if I can paint you a really beautiful vision of something, you're gonna wanna be a part of that, right? I think going back to what we're talking about is, I have to tell people why studying the Bible

is meaningful to you, because that's what drives us in our moment. And so how does that relate to how I talk about the gospel? And I mean, it's a really fun challenge, because I do think that the conversations about secularism, it's not new. Charles Taylor wrote that book, I don't know how many years ago,

but I do think in the communities I'm a part of, it's how do I get that information to you in a way as a ministry leader that's accessible? Because I think it's showing up in your pews. This is the root of what you're seeing and how can we learn to minister in a different way based upon what it is. I've seen it especially in generational shifts too. Younger people are typically asking, is it beautiful? Is it compelling? Can I live this way? Can I be happy if I make these decisions? Where you can show them,

well, the Bible says this, and this is why the Bible is true and everything. And again, I'm not saying, I mean, I'm a Bible guy. Those are important, but those are not, if you just think you can answer their Bible questions, that that's going to compel them into Christianity. I think there's a lot more to it than that. What else are you thinking about? So, and I'll let you go into just a minute, but... No, you're fine. I mean, I'm always thinking about Bible study.

I'm thinking right now, I'm thinking about Galatians, and that's kind of the connecting of just a different gospel in our generation. But yeah, those are probably the two. And then just, you know, how do I enjoy my life and not just be in the bowels of Charles Taylor and just live well? So I think that's, I'm trying to think and get to my point. As a single, who is close to 40, what I think about a lot is what does it mean to live well? I've recently had just some people I love go to be with the Lord.

And so it's like this reminder that life, you don't live forever on this side of eternity. And so it's like, what does it mean for Elizabeth to just really enjoy the life she's been given and to leave a legacy that impacts the next generation? And so those are the things that are like in the back of my mind. It's not having all the money. It's not having all the followers.

It's really people. And so what does it look like. It's not having all the followers. It's really people. And so what does it look like for me to show it for the people that mean the most to me? Maybe in some ways I haven't been doing before. So that's like the longer, slow place that I'm in of thinking. So we're in a pretty tense and volatile election year. What's your hope and prayer for the church as they try to navigate this volatile climate? Yeah. My hope is that we do it better.

It's that the conversations are complicated and that we recognize they're complicated, but that we honor people and that we don't give up what is true and essential about our faith as believers for whatever savior, that's not Jesus, that we believe is going to save us from whatever predicament we think our country's in, that our hope really is in the Lord. And that means that we might be physically in an environment that's not easy, that's not favorable, where we don't have all the power, but we recognize we have all we need in the Lord. I don't say that in a super sugary way. It's the truth of scripture. And so my hope is that we do it better, that we learn, because

the world is watching and I think they're waiting for us to mess up again. And it's like we have an opportunity to really say the way of Jesus looks like this, we're going to hold to it even if it looks like in the world of Jesus looks like this. We're going to hold to it even if it looks like in the world's eyes we're losing. That's a great word to end on. Elizabeth, where can people find you and your work? I know you have a website and social media stuff. You can find me on social media at Miss Jazzy Liz, M-I-S-S-J-A-Z-Z-Y-L-I-Z, or you can go to my website, thewoodsoninstitute.org.

Thanks so much for being on Theology Raw. Thanks for having me. This show is part of the Converge Podcast Network.