This Past Weekend - Amanda Knox | This Past Weekend #225

Episode Date: August 23, 2019

Subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts http://bit.ly/ThisPastWeekend_    Theo sits down with Amanda Knox to talk about Ren Fairs, justice, and faith.   Check out Amanda’s podcast The Truth About True Crime https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-truth-about-true-crime-with-amanda-knox/id1439490091 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   This episode brought to you by   Express VPN 3 months free with a 1 year package at https://ExpressVPN.com/THEO    Betterhelp Get 10% off your first month with promo code THEO at https://Betterhelp.com/THEO    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Find Theo   Website: https://theovon.com  Instagram: https://instagram.com/theovon Facebook: https://facebook.com/theovon Facebook Group: https://facebook.com/groups/thispastweekend  Twitter: https://twitter.com/theovon YouTube: https://youtube.com/theovon Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiEKV_MOhwZ7OEcgFyLKilw   -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   Producer Nick https://instagram.com/realnickdavis -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   Music   “Shine” - Bishop Gunn  http://bit.ly/Shine_BishopGunn    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   Gunt Squad www.patreon.com/theovon  Name Aaron Rasche Adam White Alaskan Rock Vodka Alex Hitchins Alex Person Alex Petralia Alex Wang Alexa harvey Andrew Valish Angelo Raygun Annmarie Reilly Anthony Holcombe Ashley Konicki Audrey Hodge Ayako Akiyama Bad Boi Benny Ben Deignan Ben in thar.. Benjamin Herron Benjamin Streit Bobby Hogan Brandon Carla Huffman CharCheezy Christina Peters Christopher Becking Claire Tinkler Cody Cummings Cody Kenyon Cody Marsh Crystal Dakota Montano Dan Draper Dan Perdue Danielle Fitzgerald Danny Crook David Christopher David Smith David Witkowski Dentist the menace Diana Morton Dionne Enoch Doug C Dusty Baker Em Jay Fast Eddie Faye Dvorchak Felicity Black Gillian Neale Ginger Levesque Grant Stonex Greg Salazar Gunt Squad Gary J Garcia Jamaica Taylor James Briscoe James Hunter Jameson Flood Jeffrey Lusero Jenna Sunde Jeremy Siddens Jeremy Weiner Jim Floyd Joaquin Rodriguez Joe Dunn Joel Henson Joey Piemonte John Kutch Johnathan Jensen Jon Blowers Jon Ross Jordan R Josh Cowger Josh Nemeyer Joy Hammonds Justin Doerr Justin L justin marcoux Kennedy Kenton call Kevin Best Kirk Cahill kristen rogers Kyle Baker Lacey Ann Laszlo Csekey Lawrence Abinosa Leighton Fields Luke Bennett Madeline Garland Madeline Matthews Mandy Picke'l Mariah Marisa Bruno Matt Nichols Matthew David Meaghan Lewis Mike Mikocic Mike Nucci Mike Poe Mona McCune Nick Roma Nikolas Koob Noah Bissell OK Qie Jenkins Ranger Rick Robyn Tatu Ruben Prado Ryan Hawkins Ryan Walsh Sagar Jha Sarah Anderson Sean Scott Secka Kauz Shane Pacheco Shannon potts Shona MacArthur Stephen Trottier Suzanne O'Reilly Theo Wren Thomas Adair Tim Greener Timothy Eyerman Todd Ekkebus Tom Cook Tom Kostya Tugzy Mills Tyler Harrington (TJ) Vanessa Amaya Victor Montano Vince Gonsalves William Reid Peters Yvonne Zeke HarrisSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You know, after your whole experience through, you know, being incarcerated and accusations and everything, do you, where does, do you have like, who do you, who do you blame the most, do you feel like? Congrats, one of you guys is engaged? The wedding date isn't yet, right? Yeah, the wedding date. I saw the meteor man, it was really cool. Oh, you did? Yay, okay, cool. It really inspired me. That was a production that Chris manufactured on a Sunday when I was the most unsuspecting. Like, you could tell I was the most unsuspecting because I was in my pajamas, I was sewing a wizard cloak, like, I was down on that floor. And to like, hear this like, missile sound like a missile to me that he like, he rigged up our entire house and our entire

backyard with, you know, secret speakers and like lights so that when I came down, he like dug a fog machine like underground underneath the meteorite so that it was smoking. Yeah. And it's, it's great. Like, he had this thing really, you should ask Chris about it. But like, he had like manufactured this whole thing for, he was working on it with his brother for a year. Oh, wow. So like, and then just one day he was like, today's the day. And so he made the rounds and like, brought champagne to my parents. And then while I was like, he was running errands while I was sewing my cloak and here we are. Oh, it almost sounds like a Disney, he was running errands while I was sewing my cloak. It sounds like a new, like a, like a deleted scene from Shrek or something,

you know? I wish. Or from like a Renaissance fair, maybe. We go to plenty of Renaissance fairs. In fact, we even out Renaissance fared or Renaissance fair ones. Really? Yes. And Renfairs, I'm going to throw out the term because people don't know. I've been to a few, I've been caught in some, caught in some, I would almost say misdemeanor crimes that a few of them, but people call them Renfairs, right? Yes. Okay, good. I like to use that term when I can. This is the only time. The politically correct term. Yeah. They're just kind of a little bit of slang, you know, we're a Renaissance fair. Sure, yeah. No, his brother, Chris's brother is a professional knight. Like he runs the Seattle Knights where they do jousting and choreographed fight scenes and they get hired

by Renfairs to put on shows. So where they're doing the jousting and the fighting and they're using actual swords and actual armor. So whenever we go to a Renaissance fair, we get hooked up with their gear. Oh, I see. And we can out, yeah, we can out Renaissance. She has backstage passes at a Renfair. Absolutely. We have 100% like full access Renfair. And this one time, we went to... So if, so people are wondering what's going on with Amanda Knox, she has backstage passes at a Renaissance fair. Yes. Yeah. I could tell you the goings on. Yeah. And a recent engagement that kind of like puts like, it kind of puts a nice charm into your life. Yes. Oh God. Yeah. This is the stuff that people don't know about me. People think they know a lot of things about me,

but really I'm just a nerd who likes to wear costumes and go to Renfairs. Now Renfairs, I feel like Renfairs kind of do, are they, is their arch rival kind of like a carnival, like the small town carny folk? I feel like those people probably I could see them kind of getting into some fisticuffs at night or something, you know? You know, I know there's some crossover. I do know that some performers who come to Renaissance fairs do perform at carnivals as well. Like there was this one amazing woman who trained a bunch of rats to like do acrobatics with her. Oh yeah. Which was great. And she was awesome and she goes to the Renfairs and the carnivals. Carnivals, I wish, I don't know, I feel like carnivals

just make me feel sick. I don't know. It's a little seedier. They get you hopped up on a sugar than they trick, they shake you up with the machinery. It's kind of an old school. Yeah. It's very, it's a lot more adrenaline rush than I think I can handle. I just tend to feel a little nauseated. So I don't go to carnivals very often anymore. So Renfairs, yeah, I would say, yeah, Renfairs is almost like a carnival minus the nausea. Yes. There's more. And more playfulness because you're like, you go, and you're not exactly in character, but you're playing pretend. Like everyone's just kind of playing pretend with each other and they're getting their hair braided so they can look more renaissance-y. Yeah. Like the idea is to just sort of like let

your inner nerd embrace itself. Yeah. And like they're, you know, these are some places where like it's the one place that somebody feels at home. Like the, you know, to be nerdy in the world, like, yeah, you can be a cool nerd in this world, but not everyone's a cool nerd. Some people are just straight up nerds. Yeah. And like when you are, allow yourself to get into costume and just like, and just nerd out and it's so sweet and it's so fun. I love it. Yeah. And it's kind of like, you see people like, uh, yeah, you'll see like, like a fair maid in there. You'll see, um, like a lot of wooden swords. You hear a lot about corset gassums. Oh yeah. Oh really? Have you heard of a corset gassum? I've seen honestly some big tits at a renaissance fair. Yes. They come out.

That's the place to let them on display. But then. If you like sunburnt cleavage, dude. Yes. Then a renaissance fair is it. That is the place. And Minnesota has a lot of big ones too. I know that. Yeah. I've heard about them. I've never actually been to those before, but I think me and Chris are going to be going with his brother and wife and their best friend. They all do renfair stuff together. I think we're going to be going down to this big one in Texas in November. I'm really excited. Apparently it is like 10 times as big as any of them that are here in Washington state. Dang. Yeah. So it's just like a world, an alternate reality to explore while wearing dope costumes. Yeah. Yeah. And more peaceful times, I think, in a way. Maybe I don't

know. They had dragons back then. They wish they had dragons. They really do. Yeah. I guess I wish they had dragons. That's it. Yeah. I mean, it depends on the fair because it's still a fair. Like, you know, there's still going to be some fair food. I don't know. I find it really exciting. I think that I love watching his brother do his thing. Yeah. Like doing, like they are swinging real swords at each other. And occasionally, like he'll get like a sharp elbow to that, to the face and he'll have like his face cut open. And it's like, this, this is real. The only difference is no one's actually trying to kill each other. They look like they are. And occasionally someone gets hurt. Yeah. Yeah. Renfair. You know, I went when I was actually,

I went a couple years ago, I'll be honest, you know, I'm trying to lie about it. But I went a few years ago and it was, what was it like? Oh, it started raining. So suddenly, like behind the scene, like everything kind of became, like the, the world's kind of got mixed because everybody's trying to stay dry. So you had a lot of people that weren't like in, you know, in, like Ren garb, like trying to get into the Ren holes and stuff and stuff got a little shelter became, uh, it was a commodity. Well, yeah, especially because a lot of these fairs are, um, end up being sort of put out into these fields. Yeah. And like all the water just accumulates in these fields. And like the Ren fair that I go to in Washington state very often, like, you know,

it's there and then like it has to disappear at the end of the Ren fair. And then that, that field gets recycled into something else. And I've used it before to do a mud run, which is to do like an obstacle like mud course. So that's like a week after Ren fair. It's mud running. Yeah. People don't realize like, that's crazy. I wonder what the field thinks. I wonder what the field's like, oh, who's on my back this week, you know? Oh, thankfully it's the Ren fair. They're pretty calm. Yeah. And then it's these mud freaks. And then the mud peaks are like chug and beer and like getting really dirty. And that's also a great use of random grass field. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. The one that I went to was way out in the middle of nowhere.

And we went when I was in school, I was in like a special class. And so they would take us out there. And one time they're like, okay, you have to dress up. And I was, I didn't understand the concept in of Renaissance fairs. And I was Peter Pan. That works. So it worked, but it was, you were in the kind of right time period in terms of fairy tale, like that totally, they have, they have like Robin Hood themed Ren fair. That's what I think I meant to be was Robin Hood and I just messed up, you know? And my whole costume, we didn't sew it. It was all just tie, it was like a bunch of stuff. And then I wrapped myself in fishing twine, right? To hold it all together. So it was way bizarre. I'm having trouble visualizing this, but I, do you have pictures?

I think there's some drawings or sketches of it back in the day. But it was definitely kind of a seedy look. They were pretty much the same thing, Robin Hood and Peter Pan. Yeah, totally. You're fine. As long as you have the tunic, the green tunic, you fit in. I think I got offended though, when people called me Robin Hood. That was my problem. Oh, you're like, no, this is Peter. Yeah, that's why I had to, yeah, that's right. So really, it was just the way I interacted with the world there. You know, I kind of brought, I think, a bad attitude as well. It could have been the twine too. It was 30 pound test and it was really, really tight. You know, there are people walking around in chainmail and like legit armor out there though, like 90 pounds of crap in 90 degree

weather. Oh yeah, I saw a guy drinking WD-40 out there one day and I was like, oh man, he needs it. Or mead, just so much mead. Oh yeah, and that's beer, right? Well, it's very sugary. I think it's more like wine, but like extremely sugary. It's like honey. It's like, it tends to have like a honey flavor. Like a port almost or something? Yeah, yeah. And people get shit-faced on that. Wow. Damn. It's a lot of fun. Cooked out on some mead, huh? Got some lean too. I think it's gotten a little bit urban in some of these red bears. Things are getting strange. Thanks for coming in. Thank you for having me. Actually, I admit that I have, I had not heard your podcast before, but my, what convinced me to come on is one of my best friends said that yours is the best

podcast ever and she has the biggest crush on you. So in case you want to like meet someone who's also amazing, she, you know, she moved over all the way to Italy to like be supportive of me and visit me in prison. Wow. She's an incredible person and she has a big fat crush on you. Oh, dang. And she's ex-Mormon, which I find that ex-Mormons are the best people ever. Yeah, they're pretty, yeah, I've heard some things about them. I mean, they're, yeah, Mormons are really, really unique. When I, like I, one time I was walking through the Mormon place in Utah, like Park City, the big, yeah, the temple. I mean, you're not allowed to go in the temple. Yeah, but the Tabernacle. And they had like, they had like 19 weddings going on. Like I was in like

four ceremonies just on accident. I was just like, just like accidentally just would just walk in different paths. Wow, you got lucky. I've been there before multiple times and I've never seen a wedding there. I've only, I've only wished like I've walked into that Tabernacle and like, I wish someone was singing here because they do. They're incredible singers. They're incredible musicians and they have a really great sense of community. They're really supportive of each other. And, you know, then there's all the crazy dogma. But like, yeah, there's a lot of rough dogma with everything. I feel like these days you hear more about the dogma so much of everything than you do about like the good stuff. Like the humanity. Yes. No, that's my big issue is like, I'm constantly

coming face to face with different kinds of dogmas and they don't have to be established dogmas. They can be like the whole vilification narrative is something that I find that's like, well, we've decided that somebody is a monster and now what? And for me, you know, I feel like my job now in the world, having been mischaracterized as a monster, but also having like lived next to people who have been imprisoned for years for things that they actually did do is be like, well, it's a lot more complicated. People are people and the reason they do things are not for monstrous reasons most of the time. It's usually a human reason. And we don't like to I find that the greater society tends to not want to embrace those human qualities. They

want to have a scapegoat. They want to like hold someone up as a symbol and say, this is something that we can hate. Do you think that it's the greater society that because I find that it appears that way certainly like through the news and through media for sure. But I person to person, I find that it's not that do you know, do you know what I'm talking about kind of? Sure, sure, sure, totally. And I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying it's interesting that yeah, like as a, as a, as a mass as a, especially like if you like go like through with the news and media, it's like, yes, it's like, let's put a pen in this. This is, you know, we want, yeah, we need like an angel, we need a devil, we need, you know, we need figures, you know, to get people

excited and to get them engaged. But then when you go to humans, it seems like there, there is more of a care about the people a lot of times, or there is more empathy than you get through the narrative that's in the news. Yes, I think that on a person to person basis, the instinct that another human being is across from you and you're, you automatically empathize with them because they have eyes and they have a nose and they have a mouth and they look like you because they're a human, like that instinct kicks in. But there's another instinct that we all have, which is to stop thinking and, you know, we're like, we're, God, I think it was, have you read a lot of Jonathan Haight? I think you would like him. He talks about like the

reasons why people come into conflict with each other despite the fact that, you know, they're all good people and they're all thinking people and feeling people. And one of the reasons is like, you know, we're, we're like 80% chimp and like 20% B and like the B part of us sort of like latches on to a group and then just agrees with everything in that group and other eyes as anyone outside of that group. And so I find it interesting. I don't know what from your experience, like how many people have to come together into a group before they start thinking like a group as opposed to like an individual who sees another human being across from them. Have you noticed that? Like, have you, you know, I've been amazed at just

like through podcasting and stuff, like the amount of people that are good in the world. That's what I find just by going out and doing comedy shows and having people come out to them, but just good people. Like I've just been amazed. It's really kind of changed a little bit of my perception. Sometimes I think of, of the, of the world, especially like through the news, you know, and like the mainstream media, like, I mean, I feel like that got so spoiled. Like it's always bad news. It's always bad. And now it's gotten to the point where I think, but I think most people do not believe it anymore. I think that most people realize that it's bad and they know that they're being, that it's a trick or that it's a, you know, and I hate to say

that, you know, your experience, there's probably a lot of experiences over the past 25 years that were like paramount to probably people realizing that why this is, there's no value here of me giving myself to this anymore because they don't even care like what's, what's real. Like I have more empathy than this news does. So at a certain point, I'm not, if I keep taking it in and believing it, then I'm, I'm doing almost a disservice to my, to who I am as a, as a person. Yeah. And I think that's a fair point. I also think though that we're sort of teaching ourselves how to think less thoroughly, um, just by like the way that we're consuming a lot of information, a lot of, a lot of information is coming our way and like flashing across our eyes and like

triggering an emotional response. And then that emotional response happens and then it's gone and we stopped thinking about it. And I think we are, I don't know, I get, I get both sides of it and just, you know, even from personal experience, getting both sides of it, where on the one hand we have, we have such a hunger for like depth and human connection. And that's why a lot of the media is responding to that and trying to create these difficult, um, you know, gray space narratives. And on the other hand, we have also an outrage culture and both of those are real. Yeah. And, um, and like the, the, the flippancy with which the casualness with which we decide, oh, I hate that person or, oh, that person's worthless or, oh, like it's just, it's so quick. Yeah. Is it two

different uses though? Almost do you feel like sometimes like there's a me that's, um, that like will react to something like through, through television or through online and, and, and make a choice, you know, pass a judgment. And then there's a me that's, and that me almost doesn't even seem real. I feel like that's the same me that would engage with like, um, like flirting with women online and that sort of stuff sometimes where it's like, it feels almost like a video game of not real life. Um, uh, I wish I knew that what that was like. I'm, I'm not, I mean, it's, it's fascinating. Like, uh, I obviously can't date online. So, um, I haven't had that experience, but I've definitely,

I mean, lots of people our age are, are doing online dating and are experiencing each other in a very different way. Like it's not like you just run across them and you see them in context in a, in a, in an element interacting with people. What you do is you read their profile and find out what their interests are. And if you have the same interest, maybe that means that you'll get along, but I don't know, you can have completely different interests and actually get along. And that's when it's the real connection. Yeah. I think connection, I think overall it seems like connection is just a thing that, um, it's almost like I wonder if it'll be like in a museum at some point. Like it's funny,

I was talking to my niece a couple of months ago and I was talking about imagination and she thought it was an app. She hadn't heard of it. Oh, sweetheart. And she broke my heart and she's very smart and very capable and, but it was just very bizarre to me. Yeah, imagination. Is there an app for that? Yeah. Can I outsource?

She's like, I don't think I had that. She's like, I don't think my mom lets me, I think that's under parental controls. She said that she doesn't know if I'm like, no, no, no, it's just inside of you. You know, it's like this thing that Yeah, let's do it right now. Let's not tell your mom. It's your own, it's like one of your few apps, you know. Um, do you have like, you know, after your whole experience through, you know, being incarcerated and accusations and everything, do you, where does, do you have like, who do you, who do you blame the most? Do you feel like? Oh, I think you might be surprised that, you know, as much as like the blame game was happening

at me, I don't really think of it in terms of blame. You know, I don't, I had a long time to like sit in my cell and wonder why this was happening to me. Um, and you know, that's still a question that bothers me, like just why me, why me of all people in the world to have this happen to them. Um, why? Uh, and I don't have a sufficient answer for that, but I don't think that it's a specific person that I feel the need to blame. I think, um, um, human beings fail to see each other all the time, every day. And it's not like it's someone's fault. Um, you know, I'm trying to like, one thing that I'm doing right now is I'm trying to reach out to my prosecutor because, you know, the, the easy and automatic

response to any of these situations is to be like, fuck that guy. He's, he's a bad dude and he did something bad to me, but I've never found that to be a very satisfactory, um, answer to why it doesn't answer my why question. Uh, yeah. You know, like, it gives you like kind of a, like a cane a little bit, but it doesn't really give you like a real place to stand kind of. Yeah. And I'm, I don't know if it's just my disposition, but I don't like lashing out, does not feel satisfied, like doesn't satisfy me in any way possible. I think I remember like one time wanting to like punch a pillow once and I was just like, Oh, and it was like, for some stupid thing, like maybe like, uh, traffic or something.

And, and I was like, Oh, that's what everyone's feeling all the time wanting to like punch something. Like now I know what that feels like. Um, so I don't know. I was there like, but I, I guess I mean also like in a sense of like, was there a group that or not even a specific group or person, but was it more like the, the country? Was it more the, um, was it more the, uh, the media? What was it? The news? Was it the, the police? Um, there that, that was the thing that you're like, they, it seems like they were the ones that kept the ball rolling because it seemed bizarre that you were going through all this. I think from, you know, I consider myself just kind of an every man. It seemed like, like you

didn't seem like somebody that would kill someone to me easily. And even with the, with the information from the case, but you, but you probably displayed behaviors where I was like, Oh, if I think, you know, she seems like someone that's a, you know, unique or a Lou for whimsical. And I could see that kind of fitting like, obviously a wild story. Um, but was it more the media that kept you that, do you think one of them influenced more the fact that you were, you were stuck there for so long that you had to go through all of this? Do you think? Um, I think that it's like everything. It's a lot more complicated than it would be nice

if it were because it's a combination of factors. It's a combination of the law and like what, what was legally allowed, what the police were legally allowed to do with, uh, due to me, were they illegally allowed to psychologically torture me in an interrogation room? Well, yes and no. Um, where, where they, are they human beings and is their instinct to, um, feel confirmation bias and to only see what they want to see and sort of ignore or disregard things that don't go with their pre, with their prejudice. Like these, these are all factors that came into play and I can't just pinpoint one reason why it happened. You know, it's a lot of reasons.

Do you feel like that they, that they started to think that it was sexy, that they had, not sexy, but that it was, you know, uh, there was, it was. I think sex played a role. Um, but again, not just for one person because like there's the journalist who goes, here's this like here to fresh faced young women and, and now it's sex on like girl on girl crime and that's sexy. And then on the other hand, there's a, you know, uh, some police officers or prosecutors who are looking at a crime scene and looking at a body and seeing that there were signs of sexual violence and so getting this like sexuality in their head and coming from a different culture and a different time than

I was and, and, and having pre judgments about my own sexuality or the way that my sexuality even appeared to them. Cause they didn't even really know what kind of sexual person I was. They just kind of assumed things based on the fact that I was an American girl. Um, and so there's a lot of that that goes into play. Do you think that they start, that the, that the police there started to kind of get off on the attention that they were getting at a certain point and played into their own, like almost like they would keep up things, keep up the narrative and not, and, you know, not veer off and not even want to veer off because it gave them, it almost romanticized

their position. That's what I'm trying to say. Um, I think it probably had more to do with them wanting to protect or, um, you know, they, they wanted to maintain that they were professionals with integrity. And when their, when their humanity came into play, when their prejudices came into play, when they made mistakes, um, like many of us admitting that they had made that mistake, like they, they can say like for, there's this cognitive dissonance where they can say, I'm a professional and I'm acting with integrity and, and in a certain moment for some people, they're defensive and they say that therefore I cannot make a mistake.

Like how can you point to me and say like, I'm a professional with an integrity. How can you tell me that I made a mistake? And it's like, well, I'm sorry, you, you made a mistake. Right. It's okay. You made one. Yeah. But like it became an issue and then it became the blame game. Like very quickly it became, well, who's fault is like, this is a fucked up situation. Who's fault it is?

Like who's fault is it? And under what light can we cast like how fucked up the situation is? Because we start with this death of a young woman. Yeah. And there, there's no escaping that this is a tragedy. And this is, this is the story of young women throughout history being targeted and abused and, and murdered because they're really taking, they've taken it some hours over the decades. They have and, and like, and so we start with that.

And then it becomes a tragedy on top of a tragedy on top of a tragedy. And, and how the focus gets turned from one thing to another. Being like someone that's obviously like, like, you know, is dramatic. And like, like, I could see you being in like drama club in school and that's what I mean. Totally wasn't drama. Okay. So was I. So I've been in some really bad plays.

One time I was in, I think I was in Sherlock Holmes. Oh, who were you? I was a Watson, right? Oh, great role. But I changed it to Holmes. I got real like Latino the night of the performance and I didn't tell anybody. Wait, what? And I was like, what's happening Holmes?

And so it put a whole spin, like my own selfish spin on everything. And, and it ruined everybody else's experience of the night. But for me, it was, you know, I just kind of took things. You were a play for yourself. Okay. It really was. Even though it was a lot of other people's, you know, because so many people have worked so hard for this night.

And then, you know, it's just like me with a bad accent kind of, kind of cannibalized it. Shoot, what was I going to ask you? It was something that was good too. She seems like theater. Oh yeah. So at a certain point, did it become, were you able to laugh at the fact that it became like a comedy of errors?

Or did you never even get to that place of, of like, or were you always in a place of suffering whenever you were locked up? So, hmm, I mean, it's again, a complicated answer to that question. Right. I, when I was in prison, I realized that like my body sort of reset itself to a new emotional default setting, where like, I, you know, I was a type of person who used to wake up in the morning and hear the birds saying and be like, yeah, another day, sweet. And I changed so that I woke up and I would wake up and say, another day, another day,

we're going to get through this day. And I'm not going to think about tomorrow because if I have to think about getting through tomorrow, it's, it's not, I can't get through today. So I need to get through today. It's almost like a recovery program. It's almost like somebody that's in like 12 step recovery, you know, they say one day at a time, that sort of thing. Yeah, except you don't know if you're ever going to recover.

Yeah. Cause like I had no idea when I was ever going to get out, if I was ever going to get out. Did it, did it, did it feel like it paused your ability to be like a family member? And that was the hardest part. Actually, I had a moment this past weekend. I'm, I'm the oldest of four sisters and my youngest sister is 11 years younger than me and she just turned 21 this week. Um, and a couple of things to know about that.

It means that when I left, she was under 10 years old. She was like nine years old when I left. So she was a fun age too. Yeah. She was a, she was becoming a person and, um, and I was gone by the time I got back. She was a young woman with her bononka donk and her nails and you know, like she was a young woman. Oh yeah.

These thoughts they call them. And I, I wasn't there. I didn't get to be there for her and be her big sister as she was moving from child to young woman. Um, and it hit me really hard over the weekend when like my dad was doing her 21 run because like my dad got like a van and he had an itinerary. We were going to go to like the pool hall and then we're going to do karaoke. All the things you can do now that she's legal.

Exactly. And so like he got us all, piled us all in a van and we all went out and I, uh, a lot of things are going on in my mind, but I was thinking, okay, I didn't get a 21 run. I turned 21 in prison and that's fine. That's okay. Cause I'm here for my sister. But then the reminder that like this time had passed and she was a young woman, like she was a legit young woman now who could go drinking with me now.

Like I missed, I missed her and she missed me and I wasn't there. Um, and, um, how did you keep in touch? How were you able to maintain a sense of sisterhood while you were going? Uh, so I was writing letters every day. That was, um, how I, so what I would do for you, that's pretty empowering. I bet it was one thing that you can do. It's the one thing. Yeah.

And that and setups, but like, yeah, I got really good at setups. Um, but you know, I was allowed to have like a 10 pictures with me in the cell and what I would do is I would have, I would, when I was getting ready to do a letter, I would take the picture of the person that I was going to be writing to and just stare at it. And, and like it got to the point where it's like a crazy person. I would like touch their face and like try to feel like I was physically present with them. And, and then I would write a letter and I would just like talk to the picture of them.

Um, and you know, my little, my littlest sisters were a little too young to know how to interact that way. They, and writing is not their medium. I'm constantly rewriting their essays for them, but like, yeah, I'm from the past. And then like, but my, the oldest of my younger sisters, she had to become the big sister all of a sudden and she would write to me asking for advice for how to be the big sister. And that was huge. Um, that meant a lot to me.

I think even more than she knows the fact that she just asked. Um, cause I wasn't there. Yeah. She takes her on the role kind of. Yeah. And she, and she recognized with me being gone that there were things about being the big sister that she didn't know that like that I had been doing the whole time without her realizing it.

Wow. And so, um, so she grew to have like an appreciation for me that, um, she didn't have before. Um, but then, you know, but then coming home, what I found is, you know, I thought that I was going to go back to being the person I was and I was going to have the life that I had been stolen from for a while. I was just kind of, kind of go back to doing that and that's not what happened. So like, she's still kind of the big sister and I'm kind of the weird alien person. Do you feel like a different, do you still feel like a sister?

Do you feel like as a stepmom? Do you feel like an aunt? I'm just wondering if there's a little bit of not reality change. Cause obviously these are your sisters and this is your family. Yes. But do you feel, are you still able to, to being in, um, in prison? And I say locked up. I think it's pretty though, but, um, but does it make you feel like, did you lose?

Can you still feel their love as much as before? Do you think it affected your ability to feel like other people's? So what it did is, um, before all of this happened, I was very, very, very close to my sisters and, and in, in the kind, and there's a closeness that you get by being physically present with someone. Like you just know their, your, you know, their little, you know, that they chew with their mouth open sometimes when they're looking at their phones. And you know, like, you know, those little ticks that people have the way that they paste

themselves through life that you don't get when you are at a distance. Um, and what I've found is I haven't yet been able to, uh, reclaim that kind of, um, knowledge of them. Um, and nor they have me because we, we've, we spent developmental periods of our life having very, very different life experiences. And so we don't, we have so much in common cause we've gone through a trauma that affected us all, but we all experienced it very differently. And I think that fascinating to think about how each person experienced it.

Yeah. So there's, there's, I mean, that's the whole tragedy of these issues is it's not just the person at ground zero. It's the whole world around them that suddenly like it sucked into this black hole of suffering. It seems like, and it seems like the part that really affects or sounds like one of the things that affect you the most was that you, not even that people weren't there for you, that you couldn't be there for other people. That was the hardest one.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So you can't like, you can't replicate time lost with someone. Yeah. You can't like, I can't go back and be there the first time my little sister, you know, snuck out and got drunk and needed someone to pick her up at a party. Yeah.

Like I, I wasn't there. Yeah. Right. That was my other little sister. And do they, they must know how much you care though. I feel like you seem like one of those people that it's easy for like, or they would get used to it pretty quick. Chris, you could probably know, huh?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, they, they do. Do you feel like that? Is it part of it that you don't know if you'll ever be able to make it all the way up? If that makes any sense kind of. Yeah.

Sometimes I feel like I love people, but they're never going to know how much I love them. And, and it's hard to really sometimes even show how much you really care about somebody, or if you, what you do as a human, you know. Yeah. Sometimes I do worry that the way that I communicate love is potentially alien to them. Like, you know, and I'm pretty easy going. Like I'll, I'll go and, and like have them put the makeup on me or do my hair or whatever. Like those are nice ways that you can interact with someone and just by spending time with

them doing something that they like. Like my little sister loves makeup. And so I can, I can sit there and be like, do go nuts. Like do Picasso on me. Like it's great. And I can do that. And that's like a great way to connect with her. But I, I worry that they don't know how to do that with me.

Oh, I see. Like they don't know. Like they may treat you different. Yeah. Because like I'm, I feel like they too are trying to reckon with the fact that everywhere I go, there's a doppelganger of me in the room, which is the Foxy Noxie, which is the trauma, which is the infamy that, which is that experience. Yeah, the popularity.

Well, Well, yeah, but with all those things or whatever you want to call it. I mean, I deal with a little bit of it myself. Like even just as, um, you know, as my career has changed in the past year, you know, it's become a bigger, you know, it's like, I'm like my person, whoever I am, sometimes the people are already there before I've got there, you know, and there's nothing. Sometimes it's like, now I used to be able to be myself completely one on one. And now it's like, I, I find I have to, like they already have a headstart with me in one

direction, positively or negatively, or even maybe just sideways, but they have a headstart with our interaction before I even get to them. And so I'm always either playing from a head or playing from behind and just trying to make things even most of the time I try and when I feel like I'm trying to do. And I feel bad because like a lot of times what it means is you kind of have to have a conversation about like the idea of you or the idea of me that's kind of sitting there between you and you kind of have to deconstruct that just in order to reach them. Yeah.

Um, because otherwise you also don't feel like you're on fair ground and I feel bad for the other person as well. Cause they're like, well, I know you, you don't know me. Who does that make me? Like who am I? You know, and that sucks. So I don't know. Yeah.

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That's betterhelp.com slash ThEO and join the over 500,000 people taking charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional. That's B E T T E R H E L P.com slash ThEO for 10% off your first month. And now back to our episode do, um, are there things that you miss? Like I find like, you know, I was, uh, I was in, I was in the hospital for a little bit when I was young, right? A couple of weeks and I was sick and, and I was scared, right? And my family was scared.

But when I got out of there, there were still a couple of things that like I really missed about it, even though it was like a scary time. Or there's small things that you miss about being incarcerated that you didn't, um, but like little things that people wouldn't even think about. I don't mean like, you know, recess or anything if you guys had that. But I mean like, cause rarely do you, does someone get taken out of their life for any reason. I mean, unless it's getting abducted by aliens or what happened to you or if somebody falls

in like a sinkhole or something, but there's very few opportunities to like kind of to get pulled, I mean, just in a moment, get taken out of your life on this total side path. Um, the only thing that I can think of, um, is I wish I had more time to read now and I had plenty of time to read, um, but honestly, I would never, I would never ever wish imprisonment on anyone. Um, no, I, it's, I think Sam Harris asked a really good question in his podcast where he says like, you know, the worst experience of your life, you would never want to go through

it again, but is there anything that you're glad like, is there, is there any part of you that is glad that you went through it? So like you wouldn't do it again. I would never do that again. Um, I would never wish it upon someone. Um, I think that the experience of being torn from the world, um, and subjected to incredibly dehumanizing treatment in the prison system, um, definitely gave me, um, perspective of the different ways that like human beings suffer.

Um, that I didn't know just cause I was, you know, I was also 20. I didn't, you know, I didn't know, um, Yeah. Who's even think who's he? Who can even really understand that at a large level? Yeah. So like I was suddenly plunged into a very real world of, of, of human suffering, um, that I would again would never wish upon anyone, um, in, in like extreme ways, uh, and, um,

but I do love reading and I don't get to read as much as I would love these days. So that's the, it's literally the like the brightest star that I can offer you right now because prison sucks and like locked up sounds cool, but it's not cool. It's really not. And like, um, I'm sorry to like be a Debbie down or two and like kind of burst the bubble or anything, but it's like, it's, it's really hard to put like a nice sheen on prison when it's really just a lot of people who are hurting and in pain and being, and, and no one cares because they're supposed to be in pain.

Right. And, and, um, and no one's getting better. Oh yeah. I could see that. I could really, really see that. I'm reading this book right now about, um, about, uh, I think it's called connections. Okay. It's on Hari, is that that book when we tried to get, uh, maybe have, uh, had them come

in and it's just talking about like, um, they talk about like a large woman, a woman that suffers for, with obesity or eating disorders and, and that the treatment for it is all these different diets and stuff like that. And then one time they talk about whenever they sat down with a woman, she had gotten molested or sexually abused at a certain time when she was young. And that's when she started eating more. So she didn't look, um, attractive to men so that if she didn't look attractive to men, then it would never happen again.

Yeah. This book, it's really been, to me, it's been really neat, um, but it's just amazing how like, uh, the treatments that we have sometimes, um, and I think we're finding this out more now because we're a little bit more concerned with who people are on the inside, hypothetically in some ways, um, then it used to be probably, you know, 50 years ago and it was just like, oh, you're bad. You go to jail. You know, we hang the keys over here.

You know, I think we're still migrating out of that whole kind of old philosophy. Yeah. Um, did you find like after being in there, in these environments, did you find that, did you feel like it was effective? Did you feel like it was, that the system is effective? Uh, what I noticed is that the vast majority of people who were in there, whether they were guilty or not, the vast majority of them were guilty. Um, all of them felt like victims, like they were being abused, like they were being abused

by a greater system that, and that is like, you know, the justice system was being a bully towards them. Like they, you know, they're a lot of times impoverished, a lot of times dealing with trauma and mental issues. Um, a lot of times, you know, they, they aren't making great choices, but they're also saying to themselves, well, how many great choices do I have? Like I'm human garbage to you people. And now you like lock me up in this environment to make me suffer even more.

Fuck you. Yeah. Like that's a lot of the. Right. And it gives a whole other chip on their shoulder. Exactly. And then they feel even more justified to like break the rules because they're like, you don't, I was like, you guys like didn't play the cards out neatly.

Like it's not fair. It's not fair. Right. They're, they're also victims of the unfairness of the greater structures that led them into the prison environment. And then it's like insult to injury to be in the prison environment. And it's tough when you have so many people and, and it's all a system that's very bureaucratic and stuff.

And it's like, how do you, at that point, it's really hard to get one on one attention. It's hard to get really what you need. It's almost like a cattle system. Oh yeah. It feels like that. Does it? Yeah. Yeah.

No, it's, um, what were the, what were like your conditions like? So, um, I've never, I've been only once into a prison here in the U S to visit. And I was doing like a yoga behind bars. Um, I was like trying to, um, support this organization called yoga behind bars, which were these women who were going into prisons and trying to give people skills for like, um, dealing with trauma through meditation or through just like body movements. Cause a lot of our trauma is being held in our bodies and we don't have access to them. And so they were trying to give them access to their bodies in order to experience it

more positively. Yeah. It's cool. Yeah. I do yoga with Adrienne sometimes off of the internet, off of YouTube. Adrienne? Yeah. Have you ever seen it?

I have. Yeah. Yoga with Adrienne. She's just one of the first people that comes up when you do like yoga instructions. Oh, okay. Yeah. It's good. I mean, I like it.

It's, there's all different types, but, um, anyway. Yeah. So, so this, the, the conditions that, that are compared to the U S and the ones that you had in Italy. What are those? Yeah. Um, I didn't have to wear a uniform. Um, most of us just wore sweatpants because there were limitations on what you could wear.

Um, but mostly we all just lived in sweatpants 24 seven. Um, and the, another difference for me, and I think it again depends on prison to prison, but I was locked in my cell for most of the day. Um, so you weren't, there weren't like common areas where people were, you know, working out or going to school, um, we didn't have those kind of facilities. So you were, you were either trapped in your room or you were, you had like your hour of outside time in this like concrete box. Um, and it wasn't nice out there.

No, it was a concrete box. Um, so with a roof on it or it's open, I did not have a roof. Okay. Thank goodness. So I could see the sun and I could see the sky. And would you, did you find yourself starting to like almost pray to the sun? Like, was there any like, like, would the sun become like this different friend that was out there?

I'm just kind of wondering. Dependent on what side of the prison you were on, um, in the sense that like, um, depending on if you're, you're, you're a cell faced east or faced west, the sun could be your best friend if you were in the east, because you got really nice morning sunlight. But if you lived in the west side, it became this excruciating torturer because like the sun would come in in the summer and just cook you. And like, I, I was, it was a very happy day when I was moved on to the east side of the prison.

Moving on up to the east side, um, were there people that were friendly in there? Yes. Um, and again, everything is complicated. Right. So, um, yeah, I know these questions are kind of base in some way. Like I'm just trying to like, yes. So I'm trying to give a scenario, right? Like, so there, yeah.

I'm trying to see how do you, how you stayed human in like with what other humans? Certainly. So there are different kinds of relationships that you can develop in a prison environment, that are resembling of friendly or friendship. Um, a lot of times you try to develop some kind of relationship like that with your cell mate because you're trapped in a room with them. Um, and you have to like problem solve and, and find solutions for how to live together when you're two very, very different people who are living on edge emotionally.

Wow. Um, and sometimes that works and sometimes that doesn't, depending upon a lot of factors like what is your background, um, what do you, how do you like to spend your time? Do you like it? A lot of people inside will want to just watch TV all day and watch soap operas and like play cards. Great way to spend your time, wasn't the way that I like to spend my time. I spent my time reading.

And sometimes, you think you were a nerd or anything like that? Well, a lot of them, it was a little worse than that. Some of them felt like I was, um, better than them. Yeah. Because a lot of them were illiterate. Yeah. So, oh yeah. You show a book to some illiterate people, dude, they're going to think you're Thomas

Jefferson. Totally. And like you're showing off and like I had people who were experiencing mental illness who were very paranoid who like when I was like writing letters or I was journaling thought that I was writing about them and because they couldn't read it, they were just convinced that it was about them and I had someone like take my journal and just rip it to shreds because she was convinced that I was writing about her. And so like, it's again, it's like so different than the real world because you, you're interacting

with people who are living like animals, um, being treated like animals that can just get plucked up out of their cell and, and move and shipped off to another prison at any moment. So like any time, like any relationship that you might establish is also kind of a liability because you could also have that relationship taken away from you at any moment. And so like you have to be careful about who you have a relationship and why. And usually it's a utilitarian kind of relationship. Like, oh, if I'm, if I don't play cards with this person in my cell, they're going to get mad at me and, and, and they're going to gang up on me.

So I'm, it's a, it's good for me to spend an hour of my day playing cards with this person because we're all keep peace. Yeah. So there's a lot of keeping peace more so than like camaraderie. Right. A lot of just like mitigating what's going on, making sure that, um, was there any, is there any like dating or is there a dating life where there are women that were attracted to you?

Did you have to deal with that kind of thing in prison? Yes. Um, that's definitely a thing. Um, and I would almost think that that would be a luxury and I've never been like homosexual. I don't think anyway. I mean, I got caught up on some drugs one time and I don't know what happened with this guy to go to the airport, but it was, um, but, uh, I could imagine that things get, you know, um, so if you're wondering it, well, I, I'd never hooked up with anyone, but I

did have someone like a, but even like, I've had friends that I like, but did you, did you almost have somebody that you loved in a way? Like because it was like, uh, no, I wasn't so lonely as that. I mean, I was fortunate that I always had, um, a foothold outside of the prison, which was for me always the real world. Like I never was so alone that I felt like prison was my world and it's very easy to get to that place. Um, so I had friends and family who were constantly riding with me and also like love and sex

were the last things on my mind at that point. Like I could have continued a relationship with my co-defendant who was my boyfriend before everything came out, but like as soon as we got into that prison environment and the stakes were so heightened and like every, it seemed like the only thing that mattered was like trying to get the truth out. The last thing that I was thinking about was like love and sex. I felt very alone. Um, did part of this, parts of you die almost a little bit.

Like do they disappear a little, I just, cause that's such a vibrant time for us in our lives to be like, uh, just sexual and to be like, um, not curious, but just to be alive. Yeah. Um, so what I can say is that prior, so I was in prison for two years before I was convicted and then I was in prison another two years before I was acquitted the first time. And in the two years leading up to my conviction, um, I was entirely asexual and then my conviction happened and I was like, holy shit, I've just been sentenced to 26 years in prison. Um, I guess I have to like reimagine my life as being in imprisoned life.

And that's actually when I taught myself how to masturbate. I didn't know how to masturbate before then and, and was that 23 probably 22? I was 22. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So nobody taught you in high school or something. I guess nobody's going to teach you, but I was a late bloomer.

Oh yeah. Honestly. I was a late bloomer. Um, I never really felt comfortable, uh, with my own sexuality. Um, and, and I'd never felt like I was a sexual human being. Like a lot of people comment about like, Oh, foxy Noxy, like you have this look, you're like super hypersexual, but, um, I was, I don't know if that kind of works. I don't know that many of all the words that are right, but it's like, what a total opposite

then. Yeah. I was not, I was not like a sexual person in high school. I, I was a virgin until college and even then I was like, I had to learn what an orgasm was. Like it wasn't like an obvious thing for me and, um, I didn't have good sexual experiences until like after prison, really. I'm sure.

Um, yeah. So I just didn't know until I, well, no, no, there was something before that and Chris was, uh, her fiance was here and he's really picked up the slack. That's what I heard. It's true. We do have a really great sex life. And actually we were, um, on the way over here, my friend, Madison, who was the biggest crush on you.

Oh yeah. Yeah. She sounds very nice. Uh, something really cool. Outgoing woman. Yeah. She's great. And she sent me this, um, this one, one of your conversations with a young woman named

Danielle, I think who was a virgin and then you were talking about losing her virginity. Yeah. And then we were like, Oh my God, what is, what if he asks you about sex? And I was like, well, I guess I'll just tell him everything, you know, cause like everyone, like I've gotten the, I've had someone do the, like the really mean way of asking me about the whole Foxy Noxy thing, which is to be like, so are you a dominatrix? Like is your kink to like hurt people? Like what is your fucking thing?

Like are you the kinkiest? Like are you kinky? And I'm like, well, first of all, you're making kinky people sound like evil people and kinky people are great. Yeah. For the record. They're good people and they're all, it's just two lots over from the rent fair. Exactly.

I mean, they're up in the rent fair. You just have to ask the leather maker for the other stuff, but like, I'm, I'm really boring. Um, I, I'm not good at sex, you know, like, uh, so, I mean, I thought I was good at it a little bit, like kind of around high school and then it's been a little bit, not downhill, but it's been certainly going off the edge of the hill since. Really? Why?

I mean, I've been really nervous. I think a lot of times and then, um, it's a form of communication I've discovered. Yeah. So that could see that making me nervous. Yeah. Okay. Well, you communicate for a living. What are you talking about?

Yeah. Barely though. Barely. Like I don't even know how I got this job sometimes, but I mean, I, I'm happy to have it. I just, um, but yeah, I don't, I, I just can't imagine like what that would be like. Cause then you're in this whole other world. Everybody's like, oh, you're this sexual being and you're like, were you just like, am

I, did your whole life seem, it must've seemed like almost a, like a reality, like a joke or something. Did it be like, what's going on? What it ended up becoming was it became whatever anybody wanted it to become in order to fit the narrative that they were pushing in order to make the money that they were making. And so, and that continues to this day where like someone decides that like my existence only means this, like Amanda is a villain. Or every, the confirmation bias comes down again and everything she does.

If it's, if it's a good thing, that's a nice thing. Well, we're just going to ignore that. And if it's something that I like anything possible to like flip and like distort and rip out of context to, to turn into the worst possible light, like they'll do that. And that's, that continues to be this to this day. So there's this like constant, I'm constantly reminded of the, the avenues people are, the actions people are taking to see another human being. Like you asking me to sit down here across from you and you talk to me about rent fair.

Like I feel like you're trying to see me as a person and that's so refreshing and, and like I get why my friend has a crush on you. And then like, and like communication, like, yeah, well, communication is sexy, right? Like so, and it is a form of communication is a form of sex and sex is a form of communication. So if you think of it that way, it should be easy. But then like, and like the, the, on the other flip side of it, like it is so, so ugly when it doesn't matter who you are or what you do or how even, how much you reach out to a human being, like they just shut down and there's a wall of hatred that, that comes

from being a puppet in their eyes. Like you're just a puppet, you're just an object, you're, you're an idea and, and you, you don't get to be treated like, like a human being. Wow. I don't know. It's so weird. It makes a lot of sense and it actually leads into something like the media did you so wrong. And in some ways the media did me so right.

Like I, I think that one thing that's important is, and when you say that, what do you mean by that? I mean that you can't put the media, like a lot of people act like the media is this like big one-eyed monster that like stomps around the world and crushes people with its might. And it's not, it's like conglomeration of people who have platforms and have the ability to analyze information or not. And I think that there was journalism that was asking hard questions and, and attempting

to unravel the like the, the easy narrative that was being pushed out there. And then there were people who were just like, Oh, it's such an easy quick buck to like do a salacious headline and just repeat that headline that someone else wrote over in Italy and like, I don't have to think about it. It's just an easy, it's an easy article. Right. It's a financial thing. Yeah.

There's no, yeah. There's not even a human edge to it. But I guess what I was thinking of is now, like, is it hard to now it's like, I know you have a podcast, you have a platform and you're talking a lot about justice and your podcast, I want to get the name of it again, I'll mention it at the beginning, but what is it again? The truth about true crime. The truth about true crime and true crime is, I mean, I watched probably two episodes

of something last night, you know, and I don't even know what it was, but it's like, dude, I love it. You know, if there's somebody, if they find some bones and they, or there's buried treasure. What do you love about it? Count me in. I'm curious about this because like, I'm, I was never a true crime person until I became one. The subject of a true crime.

And so I come at the true crime genre, not as like a fan, but as someone who understands the human consequences of true crime. And so I'm always trying to unpack the, the easy narrative that is, that surrounds a lot of these crimes. That's a good question you have. And I'll answer it right before, so I don't forget this question. Do you feel like then, because so many people are so obsessed with crime, with true crime, with other people's real, really trauma, it's almost the worst experiences of people's

lives. That's, that's the story. Yeah. Right. Do you feel almost like we needed someone and not even an egotistical way. Do you ever feel like we needed someone to go through this gauntlet that you went through to come out of it with your perspective now, cause I've never even heard someone say that I look at it from this other perspective, right?

Because that perspective is going, could really help change a lot of other people's, the way that we view and consume this stuff at such a, such a like crazy rate. Like, do you feel like a little bit that, I mean, I don't know. It's kind of like a fate question where it's like, Oh, did, did this need to happen? Like, I don't know if it needed to happen. It did happen. And I find myself constantly up again, like having a perspective that doesn't match up with the, the perspective that most people have.

Um, you know, like when, when Epstein killed himself in prison, a lot of people's like first sort of flippant reaction to it was good riddance. The motherfucker like went after young girls and like abused young girls and that is all true. He was a motherfucker, but did he deserve to die in prison? Did he deserve to was it, is it our responsibility now that he was in our custody to like, you know, I, I believe that anyone should be allowed to kill themselves anytime. Like that's, that's a different issue, but like when he's in our custody and we are responsible

towards that person, we should not be flippant about someone killing themselves when they are in our care. It's like that's, for me, like I was like, that's like someone else killing themselves. Like it, it, it's not something to be flippant about. Right. Cause you saying it reflects on our ability to, so that a prison also is a place where there should be care. Is that kind of, if we, yes, absolutely.

Like these are people who are now at our mercy, like that's, that's the, the reality of a prison environment is you are, you have put someone fully at the mercy of our justice system in our society and we are responsible for that person now. And it's not just like a good riddance. Like a lot of people have that like attitude of like good riddance, throw the way, throw away the key. I hope he gets raped in prison. I hope that they, you know, kill themselves.

And that's not what prison is for. It's funny. I think it's someone, some of my thought was maybe be, well, I thought that they would hopefully find a way to learn from this guy. Sure. Yeah. I mean, that was originally the intention of prison. Like before, before there was prison, there was dungeons where you were kept until you

actually had the punishment that you were supposed to get, which was a corporeal punishment. You had your hand cut off, you were beaten, you were killed. That was the punishment for a crime. And then people came along who were like, that is just brutal. We need to understand that human beings have souls because they were religious and they have the opportunity to have some kind of redemption, but we have to kind of force that redemption on them. So we're going to remove them from society and put them in a position of forced contemplation.

And that was what the prison environment was for. But it was also like weirdly a way of punishing people's souls instead of their bodies. So like the prison environment, weirdly, the purpose of it was to kind of be a soul crushing experience for the sake of redemption. I don't know how successful it is at redeeming redemption. Does redemption come from being soul crushed? In my experience, no. In my experience, most of the people who end up in that soul crushing environment just

end up hating society even more and feeling motivated to be angry at society. And so the issue of what do we do with people who have done wrongs in society is really, really complicated and has to address how human beings really react to external things being forced upon them. And I think the most people's reaction is just fuck those guys, they're human garbage. And human garbage or not, they're human and they belong to our society. The recyclables you're saying. Yeah.

So yes. They've been in there with them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Was it, um, was it tough to probably show people how much you cared while you were in there? Like if you're a caring person, I imagine you go into, it would be tough probably because

it would be hard to show some people are so, you know, some people have, you know, done so many bad things or in so much shame or just filled with hatred or suffering in different ways that it would probably be tough at sometimes to show people that you cared even. Actually it's really easy to show someone that you care. In prison. I mean, no. In prison or even outside of prison, I think the thing that to show someone that you care is if you're present with them right now, because right now is the only thing that matters.

It doesn't matter what happened yesterday. It matters what's happening right now between you and me and I don't care what you did yesterday. Can I help you write a letter to your mom because you can't write? Like I can do that. I don't care what you did. Right. I think the way that I showed caring to people is like I never asked them what crime they did.

I didn't care. It didn't matter to me and it does matter in like the greater scheme of things because like we can't just act like crimes don't matter. Right. Of course. But if we're talking about like having a human connection with another person, all that matters is right now and that is giving that person the opportunity to be a better version of themself right now.

Not tomorrow, not yesterday, just right now and that's all that matters. With the platform that you have now, is it tough to use the, do you ever feel like confused or disjointed about using media now? Because like realizing the power that it has, you know, after you kind of went through a lot of, you know, different pressure cookers of it or, you know, it was kind of put upon you in a lot of ways. Do you feel, did it take some time for you to say, okay, I'm going to use the same like airwaves and wavelengths that kind of damaged me to fight my own fight for what?

To me kind of feels like justice sort of seems to be. Yes. Very central to the whole issue is the idea of justice. Does justice exist? Is justice something as a construct that we've created and that we have to agree upon? Is justice a consensus, is justice something universal? How do we enact justice in our world? Like these are all questions that I'm grappling with every day.

And you know, it wasn't so much a question for me about the ethicalness or not of like being a media person. Because again, I don't think of media as this monstrous entity. It's a collection of individuals and it's a tool. And you can use that tool for good or you can use that tool for bad. And I think that I can use that tool for good. The question for me was, what is that going to cost me? Because every time I put myself out there in the world, it comes with a cost.

There's a question. Like me being here right now talking to you, you know, it's not just a conversation, it's an opportunity for us to like share ideas with people and how people react to those ideas is one thing. How we react to us as human beings is another. And you know, I was for a long time, I was hiding. Like I didn't want to have to be answerable to other people's hatred and judgment that wasn't coming from a place of judging even me was it was judging an idea of me that had

been created, not of me. And so like being in constant conversation with Foxy Noxie is difficult. But I've realized that I do have a different perspective that I think is useful. And at the very least is in service of people who are suffering who don't often get recognized as victims of a thing, as victims of a justice system. And I try to give voice to that I feel a responsibility, particularly because a lot of people who go through these, these issues, nobody cares. A person could have spent 20, like there are plenty of people I know who spent like 20

plus years in prison and no one cares. And for some reason they care about me because I like have, you know, I'm a girl, like I don't know, like it's whatever the reasons are that people get so mad or so interested in me is an opportunity for me to flip that around and go. But did you know that like there's not only is there a human being in me, but there's a whole world of humanity that's behind the kind of hatred that we just throw at people who are accused of crimes. And what can we do about that?

So like, I feel a responsibility and I feel that media is a very powerful tool that should be used ethically and responsibly. And I try to do that. Am I successful? Am I as successful as the people who like write really flippant headlines without doing any research in order to just vilify the next person? No, unfortunately, no. I think you will be though.

You think so? I have no idea. I think you have such a unique and special way of like being able to first of all, think and talk at the same time. That's a massive skill. Um, and also, isn't that your skill? Oh, no. That's not my skill.

It really isn't. I don't know. Like I saw you like I was, um, it really is not my skill. I mean, I saw you talking to Danielle the Virgin and you were just kind of there and you were present with her and like listening is thinking like listening is fee. And I think thinking and feeling often get like separated out as if they're like separate things. But I think feelings are information.

And if you're processing your feelings, you're you're thinking you're processing information. Yeah. Um, and it sounds like that's what you do with a lot of people. Yeah. I think I was good at it in the beginning. I think I'm still okay with it. I just have to get a little bit more connected with myself. I just kind of like lost connection a little bit.

And just even in the past like a month or two, I've just been kind of exhausted a little to realize I got to kind of recharge my batteries and stuff and even just thinking about different things, you know? And what's going on with you? I think just probably, I think I've just been burned out. Yeah. Yeah. I was just like doing so much stuff that I just like I was basically kind of living

my dreams and I wasn't even, I couldn't even like feel, I wasn't having like any joy almost. I was like, man, I'm just, you know what? Like I've kind of had that like this whole summer is just been like nose to the grindstone, like trying to tell these stories about vigilantism for this season, the podcast. Right. And on the one hand, I'm having incredible conversations with people who are like in real moments of their lives, making decisions that take them out of the norm. Like a guy who's a trucker who like goes around and tries to expose child predators on online

and a, and a guy who then puts on a mask and a cape and goes out and like beats up people who are bullying other people. Like these are people who are taking action and they're, and they're vigilants and they're taking action or making decisions and I'm having these incredible emotional conversations with them. And then I go back and I just like, you have to just plug and write and research and, and just like get the work done. And, and it has been draining for me too.

Well, you have to do all the work that people didn't do for, that they didn't do for you probably too. Yeah. And that's, that's when, and that's, that is satisfying to me because it's like, I know what people didn't do for me and I don't want to make that mistake with someone else. Like, I know what I needed. Yeah. The ability to offer that to someone else is like so, so satisfying.

And I'm sure you have like incredible conversations with people, but then you kind of come away from them and you're like, where am I? Like I've just been like in that other person's world and now I have to get work done and I have to schedule meetings and I have to like, you know, do all of the technological work and, and like the emails, the endless emails and it feels like less meaningful than that one thing. I mean, you got to get out there. Like I've been telling myself, I need to go swing dancing more.

Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, You know, look, I think that that sounds like a nice thing. Does Christopher swing dance or no? Yes. We are, we are legit swing dancers. Oh, we guys are hot to try.

What do you do though? What do I like to do? Well, it was funny because I liked doing comedy and I've always liked it. And then recently it just became a little bit, it just became like a little bit meat. Like I felt like I was on a conveyor belt of my own life and I was just kind of going and I was like kind of there at the controls kind of, but I wasn't really like involved almost, even though I was doing everything. And so now I'm trying to take a little bit of a step back and I actually just, I got

a job. I'm going to do some work out of town for about a month and a half. And so it's going to, but it's going to keep me in one place and I'm just going to take a little bit of time to my, a little more time to myself. Is it like a media kind of our comedy thing or is it like a construction job? It's a film actually. It's going to be a movie. Yeah.

This guy, um, this actor hit me up personally just about a movie. You know, I never really had any intentions of doing anything like that. But this guy like literally like three people in the world maybe could have asked me and I feel like this guy maybe was one of them. So I'm going to try it out. And also I think part of me just needs a new experience. It's not even like a big role. That's what I was going to say.

I like you. It's kind of just, just kind of remind me that of what's going on, you know, just a little change of pace, but also that like life can be different. Like that's the other thing that I think new experiences are so important about is like we kind of all sort of dig our own trench and then we forget that like life could be a different way. And like I always have this like weird little fantasy in the back of my head of like disappearing into like the mountains and making cuckoo clocks.

And that's like my weird little fantasy. And I feel like too stuck. And I'm like, I'm just too stuck in this fucking life that I'm in, like I'm like, or I could just go and like be a troll in the mountains and make cuckoo clocks. That could also be my life. I think when you look back at your, how you, when you originally got incarcerated, do you see how like, like you don't seem like somebody that would ever kill someone. You don't even seem like somebody that would probably, I could see you maybe trying, you

know, drawing up some fireflies overnight, honestly, you know, fireflies, you know, what does that mean? Or what are those things that? Lightning bugs, fireflies. Oh, jarring them up. I could see you jarring them up. And then they've been the poor things like suffocating. But yeah, it was an accident.

You didn't know you were going to kill a couple of them. You know what I'm saying? You had all good intentions. You just wanted like a little night light that you could carry with you to the restroom. I could see you kind of doing. It would be magical. Yes. I could see you doing something like that.

But do you see when people were like, do you see like that just, but I could see how people would look at you and think like, oh, maybe, you know, she's whimsical or did you see looking back like, oh, maybe I could see, were you able to even recognize like, oh, I see how people looked at me and maybe the face I'll wake or the make or the way I smile or my sense of humor or what I think is, is fun or, or, and they, could you see how they transpose that? Or did you think that they just, it was mostly just malicious? I mean, I think that, um, most of it was some, uh, something that people were projecting

onto me and I was a convenient canvas for that, um, because nobody knew who I was, right? Like I was a nobody. And so that meant that I could be in anybody. And then once people decided what that person was, like having that be corrected, like, you know, yes, you, you see me right now, I'm, this is how I am, um, and, uh, I, I honestly feel like a lot of the negative things that people have felt about me have been a projection of their, some, something, some kind of like nightmarish imagination that they have, they've just projected onto me, um, because again, it's like a confirmation bias.

You see what you want to see. And if you want to see like someone could look at me right now and say, Oh, I'm sitting, I'm daring to sit here, like talk, talking to someone as if like, I am not a fucking murderer and like me, I'm just constantly like just my very ex, like a lot of people feel that my very existence is an affront to Meredith's memory. And that like the very fact that people even know my name and, and know that I exist is an offense that I am, that I am committing against Meredith's family. And so like when my own just existence is a problem, like anything can be a problem.

So must be such a, is it sometimes a battle to get going every day in some ways? Like, or is it like, uh, or does some days it just kind of, you kind of have moments where it just, you forget that, not forget, but I never forget, um, I don't think I'll ever forget, um, but my life is not just what other people think of me. In fact, the majority of my life is not that the majority of my life is who I love and, and, and what, what work I'm doing because I love the work that I'm doing. Um, it's the question of now what, and, and the, the beautiful thing about my life right now is I'm, I can ask that question, um, and I suppose that the question never fully went

away, even in prison, I was thinking, well, I guess this is my life. I didn't think this was going to be in my life, but how do I, like, how do I live my best life and I don't know. I mean, it's that or kill yourself. Like it's, it really is like, did you, like, I just wonder sometimes, I guess a lot of us always, I guess here's a lot of people wonder if they went to prison, who they would be. Oh, sure.

Um, one thing. Okay. Here's something that's like really sad, um, a thought that I have again, like, I feel like I'm such a, um, I, I, so okay. I worry that I wouldn't be a great person if it weren't for everything that I went through. Like I would be an okay person. I've always been a nice person. I've always like rooted for the underdog and I did, you know, I was, you know, doing musicals

and I would probably still be going to run fairs, but like I, and that makes you a good person. Yeah. Um, I think it helps a little. Yeah, but like, you know, before all this happened, I didn't know about what poverty and mental illness looked like and how that affected people. And I didn't know what the justice system was doing to people and I did, never was on my radar.

You never would have known. I never would have known. Like I think that I would have lived a much more clueless existence, um, but I hope not. I hope that like I would have had other experiences that would have allowed me to grow. It's hard to say though. I, I hate playing the what if game because on the one hand, like I do think about I wasn't there and I wasn't there when my sister turned, like turned into a teenager and I wasn't there to see her.

Like I wasn't there to like go and get her training brought with her. I wasn't there and that means that, and I'm never going to get that back. But on the other hand, like I've, I got a crash course in humanity. And I feel like I've done a lot of hard work to absorb, um, meaning and compassion from all of that. Um, and I'm proud of that and I want to share that with people and I, and I think that's a good thing. Yeah.

Um, yeah. It seems, um, man, it's just, it's such, uh, there's so much like, um, I don't know. It's like, I guess kind of like forgiveness in your story, sort of, or not forgiveness, but just, it's like, you didn't even kind of take that route of like blame and, yeah, a lot of people ask me about forgiveness and I'm like, well, I don't even feel like I've kind of took this whole other route or it's like, like floating above and your perception of it all. Um, do you feel like, uh, do you relate to different characters now, like villains, whenever

you see stuff on television, do you relate to more like Jessica Rabbit or Cruella DeVille? Jessica was trouble. People like to think she was just cute, but she was trouble. She was trouble, but she was also just had, you know, Roger Rabbit's back the whole time. So like sweet. Yeah. I, I've been compared to Jessica Rabbit before, which is hilarious to me. Um, but, but from the, I'm not bad.

I'm just drawn that way kind of way. Oh. So I've used that on me before, um, uh, I don't relate to Cruella DeVille because I love animals, but get me in a room with Cruella DeVille and I think that I could uncover things about her that, that I, I kind of pride myself on being willing to speak to anyone. I, I will talk to anyone. I've lived with people who killed their own children. So like I can, I feel comfortable speaking to someone and being willing to like be present

with them again. Like it's not like I, who you are right now is a product of all of the things that came before you, but I'm interested in the things that that's happening right now. And there could be something blossoming right now that's like a momentary, like a momentarian almost. I mean, uh, I just, I want, I want to give everyone the opportunity to be able to, to be a human being and, um, and to grow and, and to be different and to then what my expectation is going to be.

I'm really open to that. Um, I, and I don't think that makes me gullible or, or, or silly because I can tell when I've definitely had encounters with people who are very dangerous and who hurt me. Um, and I've learned from those experiences from allowing myself to open up to people who were hurtful to me. What makes you hopeful, I think, which is something that's very nice to have, you know, and someone has to be that. Yeah.

And I think that everyone is sort of motivated, not out of like evil intentions, but out of a, when people do things that are wrong, it's because they misunderstand how what they're going to do. They're they misunderstand where their motivations are coming from and they misunderstand their effect on people. Or I guess, I mean, there are some people who are just fucking like beating people up and, and raping people and killing people and they know what they're doing. Um, but a lot of times they come from a place of feeling entitled or justified and like

to unpack where they, how they feel, how they got to that place of feeling justified and entitled enough to enact a violence on another human being is. Yeah. That's where we could solve things. That's where we could solve it. Exactly. Almost everything it feels like. Yeah.

It feels like, yes. Sometimes we're fighting the wrong. Yeah. We're, it's not enough for me to like point out, oh, you did this because you were feeling entitled. Like you're an entitled asshole. It's, I want to let go and be like, but how did you get there? Right.

How'd you get there? Yeah. You entitled asshole. Yeah. Right. Right. I want to find the entitled Lords testing. Let's get back up the system.

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. It's funny. I mean, people aren't the problem and it's, it's, it's whatever has caused us just to behave these ways is, is, is the problem.

You know? And yeah. Sometimes you wonder if it's defeatable or not, but the only thing that makes you feel good is to try and defy, is to try and fight it. Yeah. And, and I think to try to see it because I think that a lot of people don't want to like look that far down because they feel like it's justifying bad behavior. But I don't think understanding bad behavior means you're justifying it.

Interesting. I, I think that. Yeah. Because I sometimes have wondered why we've been speaking like, okay, is she just trying to justify that people behave badly like in these systems and stuff. But I don't want to see what you're saying, but having an understanding of it. Because then if you can, you can help them understand it too. Yeah.

Because man, imagine what it feels like probably to have killed someone and not even have any clue why. Yeah. And then that's how you're just living. Totally. Yeah. I've talked to women who killed their kids because they were feeling postpartum depression and they, then they didn't have a good support system around them.

And they just felt like they, they were, have, they had a breakdown, they had a mental breakdown of like, I can't handle my own life. And the only thing that I know to do right now in this like, I'm trapped in my life is to put my baby in a garbage can, I can't like, I can't think of anything else to do. And that, I've talked to that person and she feels terrible for what she did and she can never escape it. And she constantly feels like she's falling in black holes and like, and can never get out of it.

But like, you know, I understand that she felt like, how she felt when she did that bad thing. And that doesn't justify it. Yeah. And empowering people with understanding is, is, there's, there is something empowering about that. And empowering them to like, get out of that place is also good. Like I think that right now there's a, there's this kind of movement for sort of like defining

people as one thing and then saying you are that thing and you will be that thing forever and like, fuck you. And that's not how human beings work. But that's changing though, I think, like, even did you see Joe Rogan interview Bernie Sanders? Do you happen to see that? Oh no, I didn't see that. No.

And whatever thoughts you're on politics and I, you know, and I don't talk much about politics, but, but it was just interesting to see a long form conversation with a politician, it just gave you a different, it gave you way different ideas of who that man was kind of as a person. Instead of soundbites. Yes. Instead of soundbites. It was, it was really fascinating.

I thought that you think Nick. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. They need more of that. He's done it with Chelsea Gabbard too. I, if every single candidate could do it, I think we'd be all be more informed. Yeah. We would be better off.

For sure. But so I think, yeah, I think especially through podcasting and stuff that the, the, the hope that you're talking about, I think it's growing, you know, I really believe that we talk about it a lot on here. I really think it's growing. I mean, I especially think with Rogan and talking to Bernie Sanders, I think it's going to change the entire landscape of like how people accept other, how they learn who a person is.

Yeah. Um, so I think, uh, and you, yeah, you seem like you're going to be like, like, like a coat, like a coat, like a operative, like a black ops professional on like you just so you're very great at communicating with people. Um, yeah. It's a great skill. I'm sitting here the whole time wishing that I was you instead of me, um, just because you just better at talking and it's like, it's just more organized.

Um, what, uh, I have this question for you. So you are a, you haven't, you've been, you've been engaged now and you guys have a, now how does that go? So wild engagement, the meteor landed a meteor of love and, uh, which is really cool. It kind of reminded me of like chivalry and like, oh, it's, it reminded me when I was in junior high, dude, I had acne, bro. I mean, I had a lot. Oh my God.

I had the most acne. Remember how I never got laid in high school? Yeah. Yeah. Bro, I would smile and some of my acne would like bust. Oh God. It was just like pain. I just had like those deep ones, like the deep, a deep pain.

It was like, it's like, it's deep as my shame. Like that's how deep my acne was. It's so bad. Yeah. There's no, there's no opt-ins. Not even a zit. No, it's just a deep anger that's a rock in your face. It's so bad.

But at that time I walked across the basketball court and like, I got on my knee and I gave a rose to some girl, like, you know, and she had some real thighs on her, bro, but she was really, she was really beautiful when, so anyway. The best of us have the best of us. Yeah, the best of us, yeah. And I really did. I've got a butt like a down syndrome girl, but, and no offense if anybody has down syndrome either, but anyway, it just kind of reminded me of that.

I was like, oh, here's some nice chivalry going on. Well, the gesture, right? Like a gesture. Yes, the gesture. That somebody took time that he thought in advance. Yeah. What are some things that attracted you to your current fiance? Oh, that's a great question.

Thank you for asking. Well, I know he cared enough to come with you. I just think it's, you know, I think, yeah, and I'm curious as to like, how are you able to like, um, yeah, I guess how someone like you like looks, uh, how they accept like, you know, people, other people's care or how they notice it, you know. Well, one of the wonderful, special things about Chris, um, is when I first met him, he did not Google me, um, he didn't really know much about the case. Um, and actually maybe I should just give you our origin story.

Do you want our origin story? I'll take it. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. After the meteor, I need to know where the superheroes began. So our origin story is that, um, I was doing local arts correspondence for a local newspaper under a pseudonym, um, around like 2015.

Um, and I was, I was doing arts correspondence. I was going to plays, writing reviews, doing all that kind of thing. And I was given this a debut novel by these two novelists, um, and I, and I read it and it was hilarious and heartbreaking and I laughed and I cried and it was so smart. And so I wrote this rave review, submitted it to the paper and I was going to be the end of it except the very next day I walked out of my apartment building and across the street in like the diner window was like a concert poster before a book reading for this book that I had just read.

And I was like, that's coink it ink, like I never go out, but maybe I'll go to this book reading. So I did. And when I got there, you, you felt susceptible to a poster for a book reading. Yes, I did. And the concert before remember, I'm a nerd. Yes. So no, I wonder, I wonder who falls susceptible to those posters and now two thumbs this person.

Um, and so I went and what I witnessed was, um, these two guys, one of them is this like big bald military guy with a lisp and his best friend who had like stripes carved into his beard and like Elton John T shirt and like glasses. And it was the most beautiful bromance I had ever seen and I asked them for an interview. So they invited me over to Chris's house and we did an interview, but that kind of devolved into drinking scotch and watching Star Trek and like meandering out into the like neighborhood throughout the evening and just kind of like shenanigans. And at the end of that Gavin, his best friend, this military guy gave me this big bear hug

and Chris reached out and was like, and to shake my hand and said, we should be friends. And you know, that's a throwaway kind of thing, except like this came a month after I was fully exonerated. And it was the first time I thought, Oh, I can make friends in the real world, like a real person. And so they became like my first friends after I was fully exonerated. Um, and you know, life went on and oh yeah, friendship will escalate. Yeah.

Friendship will escalate. And so nine months later we, we started hooking up and dating, um, and you know, poor Chris, like he has to, you know, his relationship has been with me, but it's also kind of been with that like doppelganger version of me in the room. Like my, my trauma is an ever present part of my life, little anecdotes about like, Oh, have you seen Wally? And I was like, when did it come out? Cause I was probably in prison.

Like that kind of thing comes up. Yeah. You can't even play fuck Mary kill at all without somebody being like, well, do people say that all the time? Oh, all the time. Like Anthony and who's the other one, um, in fuck Mary kill. It's another person in Jodi areas. But do people say things to you all the time and they're like, Oh man, I didn't even realize

that I can't say that. Like it must. Does that happen sometimes or not? Oh no. I, um, I am super accommodating and have a sense of humor about the whole thing. Like I'm, I'm not going to be like, oh, right. You know, but like I, I'm, I understand when people are in a space where it's just like, I can't laugh about that.

I don't know. I did have, I did have one comedian make a joke about me once, um, and it came out of just a really bad time. Like it, it came on the heels of him meeting me in a very different environment. He was actually interviewing, um, Chris about his book and he didn't know it was me and I just kind of happened to be there. I was like, um, I was doing some cross stitch in the corner and every story you're like in the 1700s.

I know, but it was like, it was a super Mario cross stitch. So it was modern. Yeah. So I was doing a super Mario cross stitch in the corner and this, and so like this guy doesn't really notice me and it's only after the interview, after we left that he realized it was me and you know, six months go by and my little sister for her birthday wants to go out to see this comedian and so we all go out, we all get dressed up like all the girls doing the girly thing and going out to see this comedian that she likes and the

opener for this comedian is this other guy who met me six months ago, but didn't realize who I was. And he starts out his bit with, you know, you know how like, you don't know when there's like a famous person in the room with you until after they've left and then he goes on on the shtick where he's like, man, you can't like leave me in a room with a man and actually kill me with her knitting needles. And it was just not a good joke. Right.

It was, it wasn't a good joke, but it was, it was also just, it hurt because like on the one hand, my little sister was like, it's my little sister's birthday and suddenly my name gets dropped and like suddenly everyone's like, the focus is on me and there's like Amanda, is she going to be okay? Like they're talking about her. They're making jokes about her killing people with knitting needles. And so on the one hand, it upset me because it took us out of like my sister's birthday and on the other hand, it upset me because it's like, this guy met me and I was like,

you and you. I was just being me. I was doing Super Mario cross stitch in the corner and he felt like the joke to make about that situation was, she'll kill me with knitting needles and it's like, that is so easy and so mean. I don't know. It just, it did, it felt like, you know, like I expect it when people don't know me and haven't met me in person to like make jokes at my expense because they just don't think

I'm a human being. And I wasn't expecting like the person who, it would be like if you went out and did a comedy thing after like having this conversation and it was like, oh, I, you know, I'm better like, Yeah, it hurt your feelings. Or yeah. Yeah. Well, if you made a joke about like, you know, about me killing you in the room or something,

like that's, it's not a good joke. Like if you want to make a joke, like, I'm fine with the people making jokes about me, but like make them good jokes. I don't know. Keep her around. You can get away with anything. Yeah. Yeah.

Everyone will think I'm guilty. Like that's a good one, right? Oh, Amanda did it. Yeah. Exactly. And like the joke that I say around everyone is like, you're not allowed to die around me because I don't care what you did. Like, I'm like, if someone give that guy a high MacLennuver because I can't be, I'm

over one. Like I can't like deal with this. Nobody's going to believe this second one. No one's going to believe me. Even like. I'm going to get one, get out of jail in four years card. I guess so. So you and Chris, until you guys have a wedding date set yet or not.

Yeah. February 29th, which is leap day. I know. And I know, but even better. And this is like the best. So like we took, we took like the, the, the kind of crystal of that first thing and we were like, and I was referencing a video. You guys don't know.

I was referencing a video on YouTube that you can see of other proposal. Yeah. And this basically made a meteorite fall and crash land in my backyard and inside the meteorite wasn't just like a ring. It was a broken data crystal from the future Encyclopedia Galactica that was like Wikipedia of our future together. And he was like, wow, I guess we have a future together. I guess that means, do I like ask you now, I guess it's really happening now.

Will you marry me? And like that was like the, the game was like, oh, the future says that I proposed to you right now. So I guess I have to propose to you right now. And so what we've done is we've built a story around that where the data crystal came rocketing back in time because us in the future went to the Encyclopedia Galactica and looked ourselves up and broke our time stream. So our time stream has been broken.

And now we, we're only hypothetical Amanda and Chris getting married. And unless everyone we love comes together into one bubble outside of space and time and it's our time stream together, then we don't exist anymore. So still knitting them more knitting it in there. Yeah. Wow. That's cool. Yeah.

It's, it's really cute. And it's just, yeah, it's still, um, yeah, it's like a lot of make believe, you know, it's cool though. We like to, I love to play dancing is playing getting dressed up in costumes is playing playing. You've always been like that. I've always loved to play and, um, music is playful. Like if you're singing and playing music together, that's play because you can, like

you never know what the next person is going to happen and you just kind of like bounce off of them. I love play and I love kind of like getting people out of their shells to play with me. And I think that if you give people an excuse to put on a costume, they'll do it, but they need an excuse. I don't need an excuse. I'll put on a costume at any time, but like a lot of the people I love need an excuse. And so it's not going to be Halloween.

It's going to be February 29th. It's going to be a wedding. Yeah. Wow. It's beautiful. Congratulations on, uh, on so much going on in your life. Thank you. Um, you know, I texted to, they got pain Lindsay.

Do you know who he is? He did. Yeah, I love pain Lindsay. He's great. Yeah. I was going to try to connect you guys. I don't know if maybe if you have been connected. Yes.

We ran into each other at a true crime convention. Oh, cool. Of course. Yeah. No, I just, I was just thinking a few minutes ago, I was like, I wonder who maybe if she was going to, you know, have a guess or, or a, he's actually invited me to be on one of his new podcasts, but I think it's supposed to, I think everyone's supposed to be anonymous. So maybe I just ruined it.

Oh, well, if you decide that, that's true. We can take that apart. No, it's fine. Um, congratulations. Thanks so much for coming in. Do we have any other questions? Nick, did some come in from the viewers or did you cover it? Oh, we have a couple of Patreon.

Um, but I was wondering like how familiar you are with some of the really big true crime stories like serial and making a murder. And if you see any like parallels with your case in them, or if you have specific, like you think they did it or didn't do it in those instances, I know people love those didn't or didn't do it. Yeah. Um, I'm aware of both those cases. So Adnan Syed, um, and Brendan Dassey.

So I am good friends with one of Brendan Dassey's attorneys, um, who's an expert in false confessions. I think that, um, there's a flagrant abuse of, um, his rights. He was, he was forced to falsely confess and that is the only evidence that they used to convict him. It's obscene that his, um, that his conviction wasn't overturned. Um, it's obscene that he's in there. It's obscene that he's in there. And, um, you know, Stephen Avery, I, uh, is, is the question is a little more complicated.

Um, and I don't know the facts of his case as well, but I know, I know also through my friend, um, that Brendan Dassey, it's just ludicrous and he needs to get out of prison now and anything anyone can do to help matters. And like one of the things that I'm trying to do to help in my own way is just try to raise awareness of false confessions and coercive interrogation techniques and how police, once again, like in these environments, you know, people think that if you make a false confession or a false admission or a false accusation, like that it's coming from you, when in fact it's like the police are authoring a narrative and you have to just sign on and like they

bully you and psychologically torture you until you can't take it anymore and you're willing to sign on to anything just to make it stop. Oh, I can imagine four or five hours of torture and that's, no, it's, uh, so it's, it's, yeah, no, like, and Brendan Dassey was so young and he, like he was, he was a minor, so impressionable. They like put him through it for days and days and days. It's just, it's ridiculous what happened to him. Adnan Syed, I think there is, um, I signed alongside, um, a number of my exonere buddies. We all signed a petition in order to get his case re-looked at, um, so, you know, like,

Now when you say that, do you mean that he is, uh, that you believe that he's innocent or you just think that he should be re-looked at? He deserves to have a new trial. I don't think that the evidence that was used to convict him, um, was sufficient to find guilt. Um, and you know, I, I think that it's, it's only fair that someone is actually put through a justice process based on evidence that makes sense. Um, and it's only then that we can all determine that.

I would love to sit on a jury one day, but no one's ever going to put me on a jury. Like, no one's ever going to put me on a jury and I would love to be on that jury. Gosh, maybe, what if you knit a nice disguise? I bet you he'll go on. I mean, I like you. Because yeah, I think it could be a good juror. Yeah. I think you'd have probably a lot of, uh, I bet you'd have a lot of questions probably,

but I bet it would be good. Oh, certainly. And I mean, and you know, I come from it, from an experience, but that doesn't mean that I'm like biased towards innocence or guilt or anything. Like I, I, what I am biased about is like, I know how fucked up the system can be. Yeah, you're like a man to do frame. I just thought of that actually. Do we have anything else, Johnny?

All the Patreon we pretty much answered, um, but I just had one question. Sure. Like, what was your day like when you found out that you were reconvicted, like you were in the U.S. Did you just like roll over to a text message and you're like, oh, shit, like, just curious. Oh God. Um, the buildup to that was really hard. It wasn't like, oh yeah, oh, look at that, look at me.

It, there was, um, I think the thing, the more shocking moment for me was actually when the Supreme Court in Italy overturned my first acquittal. I was not expecting that. And so that was a phone call from my lawyer to say, to give me the bad news and to let me know that I had to go through yet another trial because it wasn't just like, you know, an overturn of an acquittal. That means they sent me back to be retried again. And so I was retried again in absentia.

Um, they found me guilty and from, and yeah. And so again, I have that phone call with my lawyer who tells me we're going to fight it. Um, but I didn't know what that meant. Like I suddenly had to start thinking about what extradition looked like and how I was going to, if Italy decided to, you know, if the Supreme Court in Italy was going to confirm that conviction, how I was going to turn myself in to the local authorities and make a case for at the very least serving my time in the U S so that my family, it wasn't such a burden

on my family. Um, I, I was living, yes, a lot of people like think, you know, four years in prison, but it was really eight years of, of waiting to know if I was allowed to live again. Yeah. So, wow. What a per, I mean, just what a purgatory for like your growth and for your humanity. Yeah. My twenties were this.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm only 32 now. So it's weird. Like I'm, I'm weirdly very, very young in the real world. Um, which means that I'm like stumbling around and, and trying to like figure out what being a real, a real person is like when there's not much left to be in a real person. So I don't think, but like, you know, yeah, then in other ways, I think we might be on

a horizon of, of realizing the value of humanity again in some ways. And that's what I hope a lot of times, you know, well, I love what you're doing because it sounds like you're, you're coming from this like optimistic place of like, if I just sit with someone, we'll, we'll just be humans together and isn't that great? Did everyone forget how cool that is? And like, I love that. Oh, thanks. So that's a really, really useful thing to do.

Yeah. So I think we try our best, you know, we've learned, we learn as we go in here, you know, we definitely try our best. Have you had any, thank you for saying that. Have you had any contact with Meredith's family? This is another question I get a lot of. The answer to that question is once again, it's complicated. Um, I've, I've written and sent a letter to them many years back, but what I have, um,

what I have heard from their lawyer and, um, in general is that they are not in a, in a place to want to talk to them. Like in the, in these situations, you have people who have gone through a terrible trauma and they have an experience of me that like just the very being of me is a trigger for that trauma. Yeah, it might just remind them of it and there's nothing wrong with that or anything. And so like when it comes to the Kertcher family, I firmly believe that like they have, like if I, I, it's not my position to force myself on them to be understood by them.

Um, if, if and when they want to have a relationship with me, I'm ready. Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm ready to answer every hard question that they might have. Um, I do think this is a, this is a whole thing about restorative justice, right? It's like coming to see how like how a, how a crime, Meredith's murder has impacted so many people and like finding that common ground and finding a reconciliation and understanding. But like you have to be ready and willing to like come to the table with that goal in mind. And until that happens, like I can't force myself on them.

Yeah. It's funny. A lot of times in my own like, uh, issues and stuff, if I'm not like, I want to do something but I'm not ready, I'll pray for like willingness, you know, it's like, I'll pray for like the step before the capability, you know, it's like, just, you know, God make me willing to do this because I want to, I'm having trouble getting to the action. Yeah. That's the biggest, like, I think that's the biggest challenge is like a lot of people,

like they could do it if only they could like bring themselves to do it, you know? Did you, uh, did you have faith? Did you struggle with faith? Did that come in your, uh, in your sentence at any point? Back when you were by yourself or when you were in prison? So I am an atheist and, um, boo, no, it's okay. Everybody has their own experience with, uh, I'm, I, I'm very hopeful that I'll try my best to have faith, you know.

Okay. Um, yeah, that's, that's cool. Yeah. And so is yours. Yours is okay. It's, it's okay. I wish I could. No, it's good.

You like sad a little though. Sorry, I'm a little sad probably, but it's probably just because of my own thoughts. It's probably somehow I'm projecting my own stuff. Yeah. I wonder like what atheists, like what that word means to you because, um, I, I clearly do a lot of, or I clearly, I guess maybe not clearly, um, I do a lot of self-reflection. I do a lot of meditation. I do a lot of thinking about my place in the world and my impact on, on people in the

world. Um, and those are all things that really, that are really important to me. And one thing that's also really important to me is like, one thing that's very real to me is that I can't rely on the universe to like be good. Right. Right. Like for me, there is no like the universe is good or bad. It's not any of those things.

All it is, is existence, existence is what it is, it's neutral, um, and we happen to be conscious and we are, we have concepts of like what just, what makes something good or, or bad, like human suffering, bad, bad for me, bad for you, bad for everyone. We know that that's bad. Yeah. Um, but it's not because it's inherently bad. It's not because someone decided or decreed that it was bad or that the dogma decreed that it was bad.

That's how we experience things, right? We know it's bad. We know it's bad and we don't want that to happen to someone. We wouldn't want it. We wouldn't wish it upon ourselves. And like, so when I'm finding, when I'm trying to find, you know, guidance or, or when I'm looking for that willingness to do something, it's, it's motivated with the understanding that like the only thing that can make the only thing I can do in my like smallness and

aloneness is try to like make connections with human beings and try to ring, try to like make as less suffering as possible and, and as much like joy and growth as possible. And, and I have to find that in myself. And I know that like no one's writing me, no one's like telling me to do that. It's really just me, me in my head alone, figuring that out for myself. And that's a responsibility that I have to take. You know, I feel responsible because I'm aware of myself. And being aware of myself is like the first thing that I have to do as a conscious being.

Yeah. And it's still, it's a fight for good. It's like we're on this, it's this equal, there's no judgment from the universe against us you're saying. And it's, but we do know right from wrong. We do know how it feels anyway. Yeah. And on our, and on our human scale, it's important.

It's important. But in the big grand scheme of things, it's not, but for us it is. And like just because something in the big grand scheme of things is utterly meaningless doesn't mean that it isn't meaningful to us right now because this is the level that we live on. Right. We don't live on cosmic levels. Right.

Right. We don't live kind of, yeah, there's not this eternal, there's, it's right now. Yeah. Right now. Well, I think the one thing it's, that I mean, I certainly agree with it. It's like, yeah, we, I think that good is infectious, you know. Okay. Yeah.

And so it's like, yeah, like, that it's a battle. Well, yeah, it is a battle. It's like, I can choose to battle for good or to, or to not, you know, and I think we're trying our best. The one thing that I would push back on that is I don't like the term battle because battle means that there's an enemy. And like, I think that it's very, very easy to fall into this mindset when you have an enemy that you then find a target to, to be the like the object of your enemy.

Whereas for me, I look at it as you're building something, you're creating something or always creating something. And what are you creating? What are you, what do you put, what energy are you putting into it? It's going to exist in the world and you're creating it. What is it going to do? And I will say this and I will, my last move will be that you would know that from personal experience a lot better than I would how that, you know, how when somebody, when there's

a lot of, you know, energy that it can be targeted at someone. So yeah, it's like kind of like that blame or forgiveness thing. It's like, I'm not even, I'm, that's not even like what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about like, what am I putting out into the world and, and what is its impact? It's a drop in an ocean. Like what is that ripple effect? Yeah. So I think we, I think we certainly agree on that.

My last question is how much did it, did the whole, did it all cost? It must have, I can't even imagine the cost of all the, the attorneys and everything. I don't even, I could not even tell you how much it costs because it costs that much. Like I, my, what my family paid, what I've had to pay, what I'm continuing to have to pay. And for something that's not even your fault. No. Wow.

That's a lot of power. It's a lot of power to stand up in the face of all those different things and to, you know, to, you know, be someone who still wants to help others, you know, or still, or just once, I don't know. It's impressive. It's very interesting. It helps me. Yeah.

I mean, like, I can't say that like me helping others doesn't help me because along the way I'm finding meaning, like I'm having that connection. And so as much as that person is having that connection with me, I'm having that connection with that person. Tell me like three things that you really love about Chris. And then we'll be done. No. Yeah.

Cause you're like taking notes. I want to finish. And I think it's very sweet that he's just been patient and been here and so I want him to feel a part of it. So, um, three things that I love about Chris, um, Chris is willing to confront what he's afraid of, um, Chris is an excellent communicator and they're going to say, she's a great communicator. They're going to say chef. Sorry.

Well, he also is an excellent chef, but like, um, but he's an excellent communication is really important to me. And I think that like communication hasn't really been one of those things that the grander culture has instilled in, in, in boys. It's not something that like we hold up as something that's very important for young men is to have like an, an emotional intelligence that they are able to communicate. Young girls are like from a very young age were taught to like get up in each other's business and be like, Oh, do you have a crush on this guy?

Well, why do you have a crush on that guy? And that is like brute practicing emotional intelligence. And it's less so something that young men are encouraged to do, but like he is very, very emotionally intelligent and very good at communicating when like he understands that I experienced the world. Sometimes I experienced the world and I experienced emotions in a different way than he does, but he doesn't hold that against me. He understands that like I just experienced the world as I do.

He experiences the world as he does and we both appreciate those differences. Like for instance, a really good example, Chris looks at boobs and he can't stop looking at boobs. You know, like he just like looks at mannequins. He looks at like, he looks at anything that remotely resembles a boob and he just kind of can't help himself. Like he just kind of gets distracted and it's, you know, it's like so real and like it's something that I like, I don't have a comparison.

It's not like I look at like guy's shoulders and go, I'm so distracted right now. Like I just don't experience that, but I appreciate that he's able to communicate with me what that's like and I can communicate something on the other hand. Cause otherwise guys are sneaking around the mall trying to hide behind a plan and look at boobs. Yeah. And you don't have to arguing with them. And then that's it.

Yeah. And like I kind of like now, now that I'm in on it, yeah, like we're kind of in on it together and I'm like, are you looking at that and he's like, yeah, and I'm like, okay, I see you. You're like, I'll be over here and knit in a cloak. I'm going to let you have your bed. A couple of tits. Amanda, what's your middle name?

Marie. Amanda Marie Knox. Thanks for being here today and people can check out your podcast, The Truth About True Crime. That's right. Right. And um, yeah, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Of course. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks so much. That was a good one. Thank you. See you later. You too.

Thanks. Thank you. Good. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. I'll share this piece of mind I found, I can feel it in my bones

But it's gonna take a little time For me to set that parking brake And let myself on wild Shine that light on me I'll sit and tell you my stories Shine on me and I will find a song I will sing it just for you