This Past Weekend - E412 Scott Stapp

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Starting point is 00:01:35 I don't give a damn what you do. But we've got a unique collection there. ThioVonStore.com. Today's guest won a Grammy in 2001 for Best Rock Song as a frontman for the band Creed. I'm happy to have him here today. I don't know a ton about him, you know, and I'm curious as to what his life has been like and what life is like going through it as him. Today's guest is Mr. Scott Stack. So what is typically the premise of this show? And that's a great question, actually. The premise? Because I just see highlight clips. I follow you and stuff. I just see the funny highlights and

Starting point is 00:02:48 sometimes you're deep as hell. Yeah, sometimes. You can have some great, great words of wisdom. I don't know what the... That's a great question. I wonder if we ever had a... I think the premise is like just real conversation. Yeah, I think I'm always just trying to like... I'm kind of like a late bloomer, I feel like, when it comes to like evolving as a, probably as a man and as a human being. Me too. So I think somehow that ends up being a lot of the premise. Yeah, I knew it up here, but I didn't put it into action. You knew what? What was going on? It would come out in my words, in my songs, but I wasn't living it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's so hard. It's hard to get, I guess,

Starting point is 00:03:30 in the action, huh? I mean, you guys, Scott Stack sitting here, your band, how big was Creed? How big was your band? Man, I tell you, during our peak, we were doing back-to-back nights at arenas and had just started putting stadiums on hold when we went our separate ways the first time. Oh, and you guys separated? Yes. Wow. Yes. So you guys had all that kind of work, like potentially on the books? Yeah, we sure did. We sure did. And what kind of calls like... What causes a band at that point? Is it just where you guys exhausted? Was it just differences of opinion? What kind of causes a... Because it would seem like everything's kind of... You know, it's so complicated. Yeah. I mean, for me, it was exhaustion from the run to get there.

Starting point is 00:04:29 Mixed with just some poor decisions in order to keep the machine going, thinking I was taking one for the team and not understanding and knowing the consequences of those actions. And then just, you know, people grow apart and everyone's dreams may not be fulfilled at that moment in time. Yeah. But we got back together in 2009 and made a new record and it did really well and had a good run until 2012. And then we're on hiatus again. Was that second run, was it different than the first experience? Was it like... Most definitely. Yeah. Most definitely. The first experience was, you know, we were family. We were brothers. We were in college together. We did holidays together. Wow. We were all we had.

Starting point is 00:05:22 And the second experience, you know, everyone's successful, wealthy, and, you know, egos have grown. Yeah. And people change. And people grow. And people grow apart. Success is kind of scary, I feel like. Did you find that success became... For me, success became real scary. I felt like if I got to a certain part of success, and I didn't know that I felt this, but I thought like a lot of things in my life would... Like problems I had and issues that I had going on that they would just kind of go away. Right. And there was a part of me that was shocked that that wasn't the case when I found some success. It almost... I mean, it really hit me hard that that wasn't the case.

Starting point is 00:06:12 Yeah. It definitely wasn't the case for me. It created new problems and metastasized old ones. Yeah. And then the pressure of maintaining that. You know, for me, the pressure of knowing that, you know, every show rested on my ability to go out on stage and sing. And of course, we were a band and everyone, you know, had to be present to be there, but I felt such a pressure. And, you know, that weight on me and not having a support system in place, you know, to help me took its toll and I didn't make all the right decisions. But hey, who does when they're 24 and 25? I don't beat myself up over it anymore. Yeah. No.

Starting point is 00:07:01 Yeah. I feel like that's a tough thing because I found that I would beat... I would... You're so hard on yourself to get... And that's what got you to where you were. Probably. Right. I'm guessing it works as a fuel. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. It had a lot to prove. Yeah. You know, I left home at 17 and came from not a very good situation.

Starting point is 00:07:25 Where was that? Just how it was raised and... In what area? I mean, sorry. It says... Apopka, Florida, just outside Orlando. A lot of missing people in Florida, dude. Yeah. There's a lot of missing people in Florida. I feel like you can go to somebody in Florida and be like...

Starting point is 00:07:40 I became a Florida man headline. Oh, yeah. Did you really? Yeah. Absolutely. Over time, man. I mean, I think I fit the mold there every once in a while. Yeah. But you know, you live and learn, man. And I grew up and made all my mistakes that most people, I think, would make in high school with their buddies. I made them in the public eye. Mm-hmm. You know, I didn't drink or anything in high school. Didn't go to parties. And why was that?

Starting point is 00:08:06 It was very strict religious household. And so I didn't get a chance to make some of those dumb mistakes. Oh. And so, you know what? I made them in public. Yeah. Yeah. You're like... And those mistakes are doing push-ups in the corner. And you know what? They weren't just little ones. They were big ones. You know what I mean? But, hey, I look at that now

Starting point is 00:08:29 and I say, you know, I wouldn't be who I am today. The father I am, the human being that I feel I'm becoming, if I didn't make those mistakes. Yeah. So I look at them as a process, you know? I'm on a journey in life and there's no guidebook. There's no manual on how to do this. So I was just flying by the seat of my pants back then, man, just doing it. My heart was in the right place. But my actions sometimes didn't always line up with my heart. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:09:04 Yeah. My heart's in the right place. The rest of me is somewhere else. Yeah. Exactly. What do you think kind of... So coming out of that environment, you came out of like a religious environment, like what was it like? Like was one of your parents a pastor or something? Like how deep into the church were you personally? It was very, very deep. You know, church was our life. It was Wednesday night, Friday night youth group, twice on Sundays,

Starting point is 00:09:32 you know, and I had an abusive upbringing. You know, those that have followed me over the years know about it. And I think the worst part of it was being abused in the name of God. But... Like what is like... So like somebody reprimanding you... Beating. Beating. Oh, wow.

Starting point is 00:09:51 Ritually. Wow. You know. Oh man, I'm sorry. I remember getting beat every Monday night for everything that I didn't get caught doing or that I thought that no one saw or that went on in my mind. And then, you know, relatively quickly, about an hour afterwards after the beating, hey, you want to come watch some football?

Starting point is 00:10:17 It was just weird, man. It was weird. And the weirdness that creates in a young man too of like, you know, like when like it's okay to be close to somebody, how you can go from abuse to immediately like everything being okay. That's all that stuff is so jarring. It was very... Looking back, it was very traumatizing. It was, you know, one thing good out of it is I was made to write the Bible for punishment.

Starting point is 00:10:45 And I would write the Bible and then have to write commentaries on what each chapter meant to me. And so looking back, that trained me to be a writer, a lyricist. It trained me to learn how to put my thoughts on paper in a poetic and unique way. And all that knowledge, although I didn't live it for a long period in my life and still don't always, it came out in my lyrics, which went on to really connect with people. Yeah. And so, you know, I look at it again, it is what it is. And I wouldn't change a thing because it's all a part of the building blocks, whether it was good or bad that created the life that I've lived so far.

Starting point is 00:11:37 Was there something that kind of helped you get to some of that conclusion? Because I still have like, I'm sure you probably had resentments against your parents. Oh, absolutely. And I find like, you know, I still, I have resentment, you know, and it's like so deep. Sometimes it's like, I can let go of it like up here. Like, but man, sometimes there's like something inside of me, it's so locked. It's like, it's hard. You know, time does help, but not in every situation.

Starting point is 00:12:07 And, you know, one day for me, with each situation that I had held on to resentment for, I just woke up one day and felt it lift and it was just time and I think maturity and growth. And then just realized, and I just didn't want to worry about it. I didn't want to think about it anymore. I wanted to let it go. So I guess you call that forgiveness, but I'll never forget. And I'll never forget because I don't want to do that to my children or anyone that I come in contact with or be that kind of friend to the people that I care about, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:12:45 But resentments are hard, man. It's hard, bro. Yeah, man. And we can hold on to them forever. And sometimes we can think that we've let it go and we haven't and they'll rear their head again. And so, but again, I think everyone goes through that. I think it's just part of being human. Yeah, it's like a sap sometimes resentment.

Starting point is 00:13:08 It's like, you know, it's, you know, sap is just so sticky. Yeah, so fucking sticky, man. And you really thick. Yeah, you can't clean it all. You don't even know where it all is. No, sometimes you never get it off. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can get it off, but it's just like, gosh, man, I'm still on my finger.

Starting point is 00:13:28 Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. You know, and I think with resentment and your sap analogy, you know, I think we can always, if we focus on things that have hurt us in our life or ways that we've been betrayed, abused, mistreated, mishandled, taken advantage of, lied to, stolen from, all the things that can happen to us in life, you know, we can find ourselves getting right back into that emotion, even though we may have a period where we think we're free from it. So it's all about, you know, what consumes your thoughts, controls your life, you know? So it's all about changing the way we think.

Starting point is 00:14:13 And I think for me, I had to make a conscious effort to do that. I had to eliminate things in my life that reminded me of those situations and those people for a period of time. I had to cut off things that were triggers to try to rewire my brain to not go there. You know, every once in a while, you know, something will flash up and I'll be like, man, there's still a little sap in there. It's still a little sap in there.

Starting point is 00:14:43 Man, I thought I'd clean that off. So maybe we go to the grave with some of that. You know what I mean? I mean, maybe we do. Yes, it's interesting. That's one thing. It's nice about being able to stay alive over time. It's like you kind of start to get different perspectives of things.

Starting point is 00:15:01 100%. You know, that's really been a gift I find as I get older. What was it like? So you guys were a close-knit group. Yeah, best friends. You guys, wow, best friends, that's crazy. Best friends, yeah. And you head into basically just stardom, however it happens, and that had to be,

Starting point is 00:15:23 what did you notice within yourself that did anything like this? Because I noticed when I started to become popular, for me, my ego started, I didn't notice it was my ego. I thought it was just like I'd gotten myself this far. So I knew a lot of the best ways to, I felt like I knew the best ways to do things. I felt like I needed to do it all myself. That was a big problem that I struggled with.

Starting point is 00:15:49 Yeah, me too. Not wanting to let other people help me, even though I needed help. Me too. And I can own that now. I can see and look back that although a few minutes ago I said I didn't have the support system, I did have a couple people that made a real value in effort to communicate and get through to me. But again, like you were saying, ego, I had done everything on my own since I was 17 years old, didn't take a dime from anybody, had lived in my car,

Starting point is 00:16:23 had lived in an apartment with no electricity, and in the freezing cold, in Chattanooga, Tennessee in 1991, sitting there taking cold baths in the winter, and I was like, man. That cold was cold. Yeah, it was cold, man, sleeping on towels. So I was like, man, I came from that. Right.

Starting point is 00:16:49 And no one helped me. I needed an ego, and I think it took an ego to go through that. What do you mean? I think it took a sense of self-confidence to even endure those struggles in life, to be strong enough to live in your car. Yeah, an ego is, you gotta have a fucking ego to do that. You have to have the good side of it, like the healthy part of an ego to do that. I'm gonna do this. I got this.

Starting point is 00:17:21 This is just temporary. You know what I mean? So there's a good side, and then there's the bad side. This is duality of man. And so when the success came, man, it's hard not to get just inflated in ego. Impossible. We were young, I was young, and the trappings of success were there every single day. And I succumb, man.

Starting point is 00:17:51 Oh, yeah, I remember even going backstage and seeing one of them cheese plates for the first time. I do not lost my damn mind, bro. I'm about to pull my ears off my head. I was so excited. Just like things where you're like, damn, we did it. We made it. Yeah, we made it. We got four types of cheese, and there's meat. Yeah, dude.

Starting point is 00:18:11 Camembert, anyone? And then like, yeah, and when things start to, it's just, it's really interesting, man, that how the ego kind of like is this, it's almost a trap kind of. It's like helping you, it's helping you, it's keeping you going so you're like so motivated with it. And then it kind of like... And then it turns on you. Yeah, it's just crazy, bro. And then it turns on you.

Starting point is 00:18:36 So I think it's something that, thank goodness with maturity and time and being broken and shattered and having to rebuild my psyche and my mind and my body multiple times. I think it put things in more perspective and I feel so detached from that person. It's almost like it was another life and another human being. I can't even get in the mind and understand that person anymore. That's how far removed I feel from that. And I don't know what that means psychologically, but it's definitely... I have to motivate myself more and push myself more than ever because of that youthful ego that carried me through being completely shattered.

Starting point is 00:19:38 And was there like a moment where you felt like it became shattered? Was there a time where you realized like, was it when you guys decided to take that break? Was it like at a point where you... was there something you noticed for you even physically or was it just something you noticed in your environment? There were a few things, a few incidents in my life. And for me, unfortunately, whenever I would make a huge mistake, it was always public. Oh yeah. Right. And so that was ego crushing.

Starting point is 00:20:11 Oh yeah. And then when I realized that my mistakes were hurting other people, that began to really sink in and make me say, you know what, I can't go on like this. I've got to make a change. And you can reach a bottom, but it's still not be a bottom if you're still digging. And so even though I thought that I had reached a bottom three or four different times, I was still digging. Wow. You know, I was still digging.

Starting point is 00:20:45 Man, that ego was big, man. It had to get chopped like a big tree. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so I had just been pruning branches. And so that tree had to get cut down and it did. And it took all the way up until about eight years ago for that last bit of out of control ego that would enable me to make decisions and do things that were self-fulfilling without realizing the consequences they had on other people to completely go away.

Starting point is 00:21:23 And was it like, were you like being me? Like, where did you know? It was self-destructive. Oh, it was self-destructive. It was drugs and alcohol. It was drinking. Oh, you were drinking. You were so okay.

Starting point is 00:21:38 Drinking and mixing it with, you know, some prescription stuff that, you know, was prescribed for the right reason. But when I found out at the time it could be abused and then you mixed a little alcohol with it, how it made you feel, I was like, well, give me more. Yeah. You know, if one is good, give me 20. You know what I mean? And it took me. Too bad they don't give out Grammys for dope. I'd have 50 of them, man.

Starting point is 00:22:08 Half of my friends would have a few for sure. You know what I mean? And I'm very cautious and careful about what I share because I have four kids. Totally. Yeah. And I don't, and, you know, one day, you know, Dad will sit down and explain things and share my life when I feel it's appropriate. But I've become coach. You know, I coach my son Daniel's baseball team and have for the last five or six years.

Starting point is 00:22:34 Oh, wow. And my youngest, Anthony, you know, I coach him at home. I'm not coaching his T-ball team this year, but, but then I have a 15 year old daughter who's a musician and plays guitar. And, and then I have an older son and he's the one that got the brunt of Dad's failures. Oh, so he knows we talk about it. I mean, he saw with his own eyes, he experienced, you know, while he was in high school and junior high. Some of my public scenarios, right? And so it definitely made an impact on him.

Starting point is 00:23:11 And we've talked through that and, and, and gotten through it. And, and, but, you know, I think now is the time to, to just look at life and move forward and, and look at all of that as, hey, I'm not going to do it again. And I'm going to be a better father because of what I've learned now than I could ever be. And so that's where I'm at. Now a word from our sponsor, better help. You know, there are many times where I get stuck thinking about not only having my problem, but thinking about my problem, thinking about having my problem. So now I'm getting double teamed right there. But what can change that and help you train your brain to stay in problem solving mode is better help.

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Starting point is 00:26:16 Because sometimes I'll notice for myself, I'll be like, okay, I'm going to change it. I'm going to change it. I'm going to change it. And I'll keep kind of read, just, you know, you keep, I'll keep kind of riding the same. Just as long as there's a little trend on it, you know, I'll find out. Oh yeah. I'll ride it one more day, you know. Was it having children?

Starting point is 00:26:40 Was it, or was there like a specific moment you were like, okay, this is really when I got a change, you know. Yeah, about eight years ago, you know, when I was facing losing my marriage and my kids. And you've been married just coming up on 17 years. And that's just your only marriage? No, I had, I had one that was kind of a shotgun Elvis and Vegas. It start to finish was a year. Yeah. I'll never forget the guy that married us.

Starting point is 00:27:14 He had a, he had a green suit with mushrooms on the outside of it. And I think he was on mushrooms when he married us. But, you know, I was very young and like literally like I'm saying, I met her, married her, and then it was over all within one year. And so I don't really consider that one a marriage. Yeah. If you know what I mean. Yeah. So.

Starting point is 00:27:38 I'm going to move that mic down just a little bit. Yeah, I moved down. So, so my wife now, Jacqueline, 17 years, we have three children together and she adopted my oldest son, Jagger, when he was six or seven. You guys got a real family. Yeah, we got a real family. We got a real family. Yeah, it's different. It's good.

Starting point is 00:27:57 It's scary. I mean, that's always seemed like the scariest, you know, that's the part to me that seems like, man, how do I get from the way I feel sometimes? And what I feel like I'm capable of in relationships and to the idea that, okay, I could be a successful patriarch or whatever it is, like a leader of a family. It's hard. It is hard. I mean, I constantly look at myself and realize, you know, all that I could be doing better. You know, it's not the white picket fence and fairy tales, marriage and relationships. You know, it's an oven flow of ups and downs and work and forgiveness and just extending a lot of compassion and grace.

Starting point is 00:28:55 And you don't always do that. And, you know, so to have made it 17 years, I tell you, you know, my wife's a warrior for enduring the first, you know, eight, nine years of our marriage. Really? And then, you know, a warrior for bringing me back, you know, once I, you know, got sober and changed my life. And so she deserves a medal of honor for what she went through. So, but it's definitely the single most fulfilling a family and having your own kids and it's a single most fulfilling thing in life. Has it been? More than any success I've had in music.

Starting point is 00:29:46 You know, when my little boy walks in a room and just lights up and runs to me and says, Daddy, and I love you so much, Dad. You know, when I'm coaching my 12 year old and, you know, we've had many moments where it's Dad pitch, you know, and he's up there and I know where he wants to pitch, you know, so I'm putting it right where he wants it. You know, he rips a double and knocks in three runs and I turn and look at him and he's like, and I'm like, dude, those are moments you can't replace or you just, there's nothing like it. Yeah. At least for me. And you never had it growing up? No. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:30:26 So I can imagine it almost must have double the effect because you're getting to have, I would imagine. I'm getting to be the father I wish I had. Right. Yeah. And you're almost getting to live vicariously through your son and I would imagine maybe a dad gets to, I don't know. I never had any children. In ways. Right.

Starting point is 00:30:46 In ways, definitely. Most definitely. But just the unconditional love is just so beautiful and we can learn so much as human beings from the unconditional love that children give us until they're teenagers. Yeah. Then there's conditional. Then there's conditional. Hey, Dad, we're going to start conditional love this year. Right.

Starting point is 00:31:12 Exactly. Exactly. And it's an adjustment as a parent. You kind of get your heart broken. Oh, I'm sure. I bet. But anyway, it's been the greatest achievement of my life. I mean, because I tell you what, nobody who knows me would have ever thought that I'd be here today talking to you alive with the life that I've led and the family that I have, not a single person.

Starting point is 00:31:38 Wow. And so I'm a blessed man. You were deep out there, huh? Yeah. Man. Yeah. And it was a product and no excuses, but it was a product of abuse. It was a product of physical abuse, spiritual abuse, emotional abuse.

Starting point is 00:32:00 You know, Because what happens that kind of manifest, I mean, I know what happens for me, you know, but for you, like, does it like manifest itself or like, was it creating like things inside of you that you didn't know? Like, how did it kind of, how did that stuff hinder you? You know, Oh, it hindered me tremendously growing up. I was very angry. You know, and again, like we were talking about ego earlier, that anger turned to a fuel, you know, that I was going to prove I'm wrong. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:32 You know what I mean? And so to show them. Yeah, exactly. I know. Exactly. And as things go right in your life, the things that start to go good that you choose to do, it only just feel it's like, I'm fucking right. But eventually that backfires.

Starting point is 00:32:45 That can't be your fuel forever. Right. And sustain life because you crash and burn. And so, but it did fuel me to get there. Yeah. And so, but it also now in hindsight, again, like I said earlier, it's completely impacted, you know, the way that I am as a father to my kids and what I won't do. I've almost gone to the complete opposite where my wife has to tell me, you can't just be the kid's friend. You have to be their parent.

Starting point is 00:33:17 Ah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I've got to remind myself to be, you know, I got to tell them no. Well, you probably, I would imagine part of you wants to still be, there's a big part of you, I would guess I noticed it for myself that still wants to be the child also in a way. And I just noticed it for myself. Like there's a part of me that still wants that never got to be the kid with the, you know, like the carefree kid kind of. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:33:48 You know what? I got to experience that carefree-ness, if that's a word, during Creed's successful run. And because of not having that proper upbringing, I didn't know how to handle carefree. Carefree meant just life is my candy store. Yeah. I'm going to do whatever I want. And that didn't last too long without biting you. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:34:13 I guess because there's no real top on it, you know, like you don't meet like a guy, you don't meet a, people always say you don't meet a cokehead in their fifties, you know. I met a couple. Oh yeah. I met a couple. Yeah. Because it just burns you, you know, like the drugs and stuff after a while, it just burns you out. Oh, 100%. And it doesn't lead to any joy, you know.

Starting point is 00:34:35 No. I even noticed it with dating. Like if I just keep kind of like getting sexual with women that there's no, you know, that it's not, at a certain point, it's not fulfilling something inside of me. Well, it changes your entire perception of women. Yeah. You start viewing all women like those women that you were promiscuous with. And it's a lack of respect. And so you almost have to retrain your brain once you come out of that fog and come out of that dark place on how to view everyone in your life, but you know, specifically women, on how to view women.

Starting point is 00:35:13 Yeah. And realize that not all women are that way. Most women aren't that way. Right. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. It gets kind of like, if you have girls that are like kind of trying to meet up with you after shows and make out or whatever, be sexy or whatever, then it's like, you start, you kind of get attracted.

Starting point is 00:35:30 You kind of get tricked into thinking that any, a lot of women are just like that, that all women are like that. And so then you like. I think, yeah. Yeah. I think that just becomes your lifestyle. And I can only imagine for rock star, it's like. And it just seeps into your psyche. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:47 Into your being because that's your reality every day. And so when you come out of that, it definitely is a process to kind of relearn love. Yeah. Relearn how people are in the real world, not the fake world of rock and roll superstar. Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine that. Did you have like, what about like the Christian effect?

Starting point is 00:36:15 What was that kind of like going into your music and how did that kind of play a role as you? Because, you know, like we kind of think of God or of Jesus as like kind of like the, he's the ultimate sacrifice or, you know, he's really the way and. Did you ever, because once you build enough of your own complex, you don't even need a God anymore. Well, I tell you what, one thing I have learned is that God will use you despite yourself. You know, I feel that when God has a calling on your life, there's nothing that you can do. Yeah. To get in the way of the plan. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:36:58 No matter how hard you try. No matter how hard you try to screw up God's plan for your life, you can't. Yeah. Now you may make it more difficult for yourself and you may have to suffer more. But God will use you despite yourself and, you know, and also, you know, you'll be humbled. Yeah. And that's happened many a times. But I've seen over the years that no matter how many times I tried to screw up God's plan for my life.

Starting point is 00:37:29 You know, I may have went the long way to the end goal, but always got to the end goal in terms of reaching people. And, and, you know, keeping that message within the music of hope and pointing people towards something greater than themselves. That's a great point, man. The music, despite whatever issues you were dealing with, your music always gave people a sense of hope. And pointing people to God. Yeah. And that was a promise that I made God in my little tiny apartment with a, not even an apartment, it was a bedroom with a mattress. Oh, I used to share a dude, I shared a room with this fella and we were just friends, you know, and at this lady's place and she made us, she had a golden retriever.

Starting point is 00:38:20 She made us because she had to go to work early. We didn't have jobs. She made us put a shirt like on the golden retriever each day. So like, it was just. I don't know. It was pretty sad. That's, that's interesting. It was not, it was nice.

Starting point is 00:38:33 I never spent time with someone around the dog, but it was also sad to be like just there all day just watching TV. Just like, what color was the shirt? It was different colors. Oh, every day. Yeah. They had like six or seven different ones, you know, but it was, where'd she get them? I don't know. It was just like a man's t-shirt, like a small and we would put it on it.

Starting point is 00:38:54 It was kind of a long dog. Right. Right. Wow. Yeah. Anyway, I don't even know why I told you that, but, um, yeah, I think, uh, I think, shit, I forgot what we're talking about. It happens.

Starting point is 00:39:07 Yeah. Yeah. Um, so we were talking about how, you know, the music still had its message. It had its message and, and I had, and I've shared this before years ago and, uh, and in my book, um, that, you know, I made a promise to God, you know, in my room. And I said, I promise, no matter what, that I will always put you in my music and in my lyrics in some way that I will always point, whether I'm living it or not, because I know the songs will live on no matter what I'm doing.

Starting point is 00:39:41 Now, I know that doesn't jive with, with a lot of people, but, but I knew my frailties. I knew my weaknesses. I knew I couldn't live the life, um, that, or at that time, um, that, uh, you know, someone who was, who was a Christian artist, um, was supposed to live. So Creed was not a Christian band. Um, the guys, in fact, when, when the press started noticing that there was some religious and Christian themes in our music and brought it out, the guys were like in shock, like, what are you writing about, man?

Starting point is 00:40:16 Like, what, what is this? Well, this is not what we signed up for. You know what I mean? And I get it, man. It wasn't part of their rock and roll dream. Oh, they were like, we don't want to be in a Christian band. Exactly. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:27 Exactly. And, and to be honest with you, I didn't either because at the time that's not the life that, that I felt that I could live, nor did I want to. I chose a different path. Um, but I ordered my promise. Did that feel like a lot of pre- cause then the media almost made it seem like, oh, this is a Christian band. Right.

Starting point is 00:40:45 And that adds a whole, did it add a whole another level of pressure to seem like a Christian and the, or like to have a. We didn't. Right. Uh, I mean, we talked about it. I mean, you know, the guys were not happy, uh, because exactly what you said, they didn't want to live with that pressure and that burden that was something they signed up for. They signed up to be in a rock and roll band, man, and everything that came with it.

Starting point is 00:41:06 Yeah. And Christian bands always have like that one, they've always put a cage on that one dude on the stage. That's insane, bro. You know what I'm talking about? Uh, I know. Like if you go to like a, like a church, like there's always like the band up there, which is cool.

Starting point is 00:41:20 Are you talking about the drummer? Yes. Okay. They always cage. The plexiglass. Yeah. Yeah. Why do they cage him up?

Starting point is 00:41:28 I don't know, man. That just, I don't, I just, it makes me feel always like he did something bad and they put it in there. Like I just don't, I don't know. There's just something about that that I don't like. Hey, you know what? We all do stuff that are bad, man. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:40 We're all, we're all human. Well, then each week they should put a different instrument in there. Exactly. There, there should be, there should be a cage around all of us each week. That's true. That's really true. Um, you know, so you guys, so, so, so that added some pressure then, but you had to talk with your band members that like, so were they upset with you about that?

Starting point is 00:42:00 There was a time when they were. Yeah. Absolutely. Wow. 100%. And also, you know, they knew that I wasn't living it. So they were like, well, why is it in there? That's not you.

Starting point is 00:42:11 And I'm like, because I have to, man, it's, I know it's right. This is what I felt called to do because when I was little, when I was younger, I felt called to be a pastor. I preached my first sermon, all right, in front of probably a thousand people in a youth group. Wow. When I was 12 or 13 years old at Calvary Assembly of God in Orlando, Florida. And so that's, it's interesting.

Starting point is 00:42:38 And so that was always in me. And so I went to the complete polar opposite of what a preacher is, but still in my writings could not escape what I knew was right or what I felt was right. And that is to point people to God, to point people to something greater, to point people to a spiritual life in the spiritual realm, which I knew was real, which I had felt as a child. And I've felt on stage thousands of times and continue to, to this day. So I can't deny it because I know it's real.

Starting point is 00:43:17 I felt it. Right. Yeah. I've had some spiritual experiences in my own life when I've turned my life over to a higher power or asked a higher power, asked God to come into my life and help me, you know, that have blown my mind. Yeah. It was really crazy when the connection with something, cause I didn't trust anybody in

Starting point is 00:43:38 the world, you know, which is normal of a lot of people in recovery and stuff. And so that's why they get you with God. They kind of like lead you to God or to a higher power of your choice. You can pick your own because only something unworldly, unlike earthly, would I be willing to believe in because it feels like everything in the earth or every human in the earth has let me down. That's what part of me feels like, whether that's true or not. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:44:09 Well, that's what we do as human beings. We let each other down, whether we mean to or not. I know it's crazy. You know what I mean? And I think that's why in recovery, they do point you to a higher power because not only do we let other people down on a regular basis, we let ourselves down all the time. And that's what led us to having to join a recovery group, a recovery program because we had let ourselves down so bad.

Starting point is 00:44:36 And so the only way to come out of that bottom is to look up. And you know, I think we've been kind of programmed to believe that God is up there somewhere in the universe. And so that's why we use those analogies of looking up. But I believe God is all around us. He's in everything if you look for him or her, however you want to describe it. I describe God. I see God as a traditional God, not the dogma that I was raised on, you know, this punishing

Starting point is 00:45:06 hellfire and brimstone. You know, if you say a curse word and you get hit by a car, no matter how good you lived your life, you're going to burn in hell. I mean, that's how I grew up. I don't believe that. I don't believe that I can love my children more than my God can love me. And so the same grace that I can extend my sons and my daughter, the same unconditional love, no matter what they do, I'm never going to stop loving them.

Starting point is 00:45:35 Okay. I don't believe that I can love more than God. I believe my love is a fraction of how God loves us. And so when I got to that place, it really freed me of a lot of guilt and shame and responsibility almost in a weird way of like unnecessary responsibility. Right. Now, I still, I still have a tremendous guilty conscience when I make a mistake. I will, I will torture myself.

Starting point is 00:46:00 I will have sleepless nights. Even if no one knows but me, yeah. And I just have to go through it and I have to endure it. That's just my nature. Yeah. Why do we do that? Scott, cause a lot of them, like my listeners over the years and people that like this show, they always will, they will often comment, even when I see some of them in person, hey,

Starting point is 00:46:20 man, you're too hard on yourself, you know, and I don't even know if I notice it. You know, it's like, but when I hear you say that, you know, and I know it's common amongst people that have been in recovery and gone through, you know, certain types of struggle with certain types of addiction or addictive natures, um, why is that? Why are we so, why are we so hard on ourselves? Well, I mean, for me, I, now it's emotional relapses and I'm sure you've heard that, that expression and that saying, you know, so the relapses aren't, you know, going out and getting a bottle of Jack and an eight ball, you know, the, the relapses are character flaws, character

Starting point is 00:47:02 defects. Oh yeah. And I tell you, you know, when I have those, um, I'm, you know, they destroy me, um, and I'm working on that. I'm working on giving myself as much grace as I extend, uh, you know, my children. Yeah. Because that's my frame of reference is, is my kids because that's, that's the purest form of love that I can understand and comprehend.

Starting point is 00:47:29 And so I'm trying to recently, uh, with some things that have gone on in my life is I'm trying to learn to extend the same grace and love that I do to my children, to other people that are in my life, uh, and myself, um, and it's hard. It's difficult. What do you think that comes from that being so hard on yourself or do you have any, if I'm just, well, I mean, any different insight that I might have had in my, I mean, for, for me, I think I was programmed that way, uh, because of, you know, as a child, um, you know, the abuse that I endured in the name of God, uh, you know, and would they

Starting point is 00:48:07 whip me and talk about God? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Strip me naked and beat me from the back of my neck to the bottom of my feet. Um, and, and my life was on a timer. Your siblings too? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:20 Oh man. My life was on a timer. I feared this, uh, but I would wait, get woken up and then a timer would get turned on five minutes. What if that timer went off before I was, where I was supposed to be next, I could beat. And then the timer would be on where I was supposed to be next. If I wasn't finished with my breakfast and in my bathroom, rushing my teeth, I could beat again.

Starting point is 00:48:42 Man, it makes me so sad. But you know, I, I, I think, I think that is, for me, uh, part of why I rebelled so intensely, part of why I still, when I make mistakes, they're so, they're big ones. You know, I skip the little ones. I go straight to the big one. You know what I mean? It's like, I'd rather make, you know, man, when am I going to get to the point, you know, I'm 49 years old.

Starting point is 00:49:07 When do I get to the point where my, my, my, my character defects when they manifest are small. Um, but at least they're not, like I said, you know, jack and an eight ball. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that right there explains why you'd be so hard on yourself if you had five minutes to do this. You had five minutes to do that, the way that that gets baked into your own psyche as a child

Starting point is 00:49:27 and you don't even know it. Right. And, and then also, you know, the spiritual abuse, uh, you know, being, being, you know, in touch with the spiritual world as a child, you know, how creative we are and how we have very tale friends, you know, as a child, and then you throw in the Bible and that mindset when you're developing and your brain is developing and that becomes reality. And so you're reading the Bible and you're understanding at least from my life and, and it's, it's real.

Starting point is 00:50:02 You know, David and Goliath and, and angels, you know, appearing in the middle of the night, that could really happen. That's real. God is real. He's right here. And so when you make a mistake, uh, man, it's just so, you know, you feel such guilt because, you know, you're going to burn in hell and that's just baked. That's baked into you.

Starting point is 00:50:22 And so I think that that can create what we're talking about, you know, why we're so hard on ourselves, even when we're separated, uh, from that type of right belief system. Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's just built. It's just built. I'm built. That's the foundation of my, of my psyche.

Starting point is 00:50:38 Yeah. Um, and so. Right. It's not just your religious relay. It's not just your religious, uh, intellect that's created there, your own, your own intellect and recipe of who you are is established outside of the religious part of it or not. Right. And I still have those rebellious moments, even at my age where I'm just like, screw

Starting point is 00:50:58 it. I'm going to do it. And those are the character defects that I continue to work on. Yeah. Uh, but I tell you the, the guilt and shame that come with that, uh, you know, I guess it's there to make me a better person, you know, and I guess that's what we're trying to be, um, but I tell you, you know, that those expressions, you know, three steps forward, you know, two steps back, you know, Paul Abdul.

Starting point is 00:51:24 Yeah. There you go. Uh, I think it was. What was her? Two steps forward. Two steps back. There you go.

Starting point is 00:51:32 That's right. You know, she lived in South Beach across the bay from me when I lived in South Beach. Yeah. I always wondered what went on at her house. I wonder if she was just practicing dancing all the time. I'm sure she was just walking in place. It sounds like. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:51:46 Yeah. I don't know. That's interesting. Yeah. Paul Abdul. I think she was dancing with Disney characters. I bet she was, dude. Well, I think she had an addiction for a little while.

Starting point is 00:51:55 So I bet I think she was on Somus and I took two once and damn I drove my car right into a Donald duck. I know that. You know, everybody, you want to look young. You want to look young unless you're a damn newborn, then you can't, you don't want to look, you know, wet or like you're living in like a bag or like a sack or anything. But if you're getting older, you want to look young. You know, I saw myself the other day, I saw a, not a drawing on myself, but it was like

Starting point is 00:52:22 a, what's that? It's like a piece of glass that does like a drawing of you me. I saw reflection. I saw my reflection in the mirror. The other day I said, damn, I got to get younger. Well, geology is branching out from their amazing skincare line and adding their new custom control hair care line. That's right.

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Starting point is 00:54:01 Use code Theo for 70% off. But you know, we've got to get to the point where we all realize that we're all just striving hopefully to be a better version of who we were the day before. And I forget that and I get caught in the weeds of life. But ultimately at the end of the day, that's what I want. That's who I want to be. And I always share with my fans when I'm doing like acoustic storyteller stuff, I'm like, listen, I know this song is about this, but let me remind you, sometimes I write about

Starting point is 00:54:36 where I want to be, not where I am. Sometimes I write about where I've been and how I know or what I believe will get me out, but I'm not out yet. I'm just living trying to do this deal just like you. I'm just trying to survive and do it the best I can. That's this part. I mean, that is this show. And I mean, that's a lot of this podcast, audience in a nutshell, I think, is people

Starting point is 00:55:00 just having a human experience and trying to figure it out the best that they can. And we just got to love each other. I know it's fucking hard though. It is. When you meet people, you're like, damn, it's hard to love Rodney. It's like her, damn, Brenda's out here, so it gets dicey. It's so easy to say and so hard to do. Hell it is.

Starting point is 00:55:21 And when you start saying it and when you start speaking that into existence in your life and in your mind, the universe or God will test you and will give you, at least I've experienced, will put you in situations where you've got to practice what you preach and it's hard. It's hard without getting into details. I'm facing it right now where I'm realizing, hey, oh, that's what love is. That's what loyalty is. That's, wow, man.

Starting point is 00:55:56 And it's given me a whole new respect and admiration for people that have, you know, the one or two people that have shown me that during my time, I look at them in a whole new way because it's not easy. The grace that they've shown me now. Especially people like, I think that go through recovery and are learning. It's just such a late learning process. It is. It is.

Starting point is 00:56:22 Our society has such a, it doesn't, it thinks you should have learned a lot of these things earlier. And yes, we think we should have too. I feel, you know what, I've said that all the time, man, I should have. I should have learned this stuff. If I only had a supportive family like Tommy, if I only had a mom and a dad that were like Joe, you know, then I wouldn't have had to go through these circumstances that I'm going through now.

Starting point is 00:56:53 Cause I would have had the right people to intervene. Right. Right. I think about that too. And it can be negative though, after a while, because I'll get in like a self pity. Yep. Yep. And self pity leads us nowhere, man.

Starting point is 00:57:04 Oh, it's such a, that is a trap. Yeah. God self pity is a trap. I didn't know that. Yeah. I don't have time for it anymore. Oh, that's good. I don't have time for it.

Starting point is 00:57:13 Yeah. I think it's such a good thing to notice because I was in it for a while and didn't notice. I thought, oh, something's wrong with me. I got to figure it out. Something's wrong with me. I got to figure it out. I didn't realize that's just a trap that self pity sets. Yep.

Starting point is 00:57:27 You know, 100%. 100%. I mean, we can't, you know, I realized a while ago, I'm not a victim. Now when I was a minor, I was a victim. Right. I couldn't control that situation. I had no choice. But as I became an adult, I volunteered for everything that I did.

Starting point is 00:57:49 Okay. I'm not a victim. Okay. There were consequences to every decision that I made and I can't blame anymore. I have to own it and I have to accept responsibility for it. And that's hard because, you know, it's best because you can look at people sometimes and say, well, hey, I never would have done that to you and you did that to me and then I did this because you did that to me.

Starting point is 00:58:15 And so if you didn't do that to me, I wouldn't be in the situation right now, you know, but we all have a choice. No matter what people do to us, we have a choice on how we react to it. Yeah. And I don't know if you've heard that expression, but this has been the story of my life at a certain, for a long period of time, well, you effed me. So now I'm going to go eff me. Oh.

Starting point is 00:58:37 You know what I'm saying? You screwed me over now, I'm going to go drink five bottles of Jack and get all this other stuff and go screw myself up even more. Yeah. So, you know, and that, and that's, that's, you did, you did that. Yeah, I did that. Wow. 100%.

Starting point is 00:58:53 That's how I dealt with my problems for a number of years. So it was like, if you're going to do this to me, then I'm going to do this to me. Why is it? What is that thing? I don't know, man. It's insanity. I'm going to do it to me to show you that only I hurt me. Is it?

Starting point is 00:59:08 It's subconscious. Right. Yeah, I'm just trying to. It's something that I didn't even know I was doing until I got away from it and had a chance to look at it because it makes no sense. You know, why would you go do more damage to a situation and to your place in life because you're hurt by somebody else? That's insanity.

Starting point is 00:59:27 It doesn't make any sense. Right. But that's the pattern I got into for a long period of time. I'm thinking on it. I'm trying to feel on it and think on at the same time and I'm feeling like, oh, well, I'm going to show you the only person that hurts me is me and I'm not saying that that's you. I'm just trying to think of like why a behavior like that would happen.

Starting point is 00:59:46 Well, I think for me, it may have been to numb the pain. I was such a sense. I'm such a sensitive person that I get hurt so easily that when I feel betrayed or feel hurt, I don't want to feel that way anymore. And so I would numb it. And so in numbing that with substances and with alcohol, that's how I was screwing myself even more because the consequences of what that numbing would bring into my life. So it was an insane cycle.

Starting point is 01:00:18 And at some level, I do the same thing now just not with substances. You know, I'll be hurt. I'll be, I'll feel it so deeply. And my way now is to isolate, shut down. And it just, all the ways that I've handled it just makes the problem worse. It doesn't make it any better. You know, so I'm really, really trying to learn to, on a daily basis, especially with people that I love and even people at Starbucks who like tell you to eff off because you bumped

Starting point is 01:00:56 into them with your arm. Yeah. Man, what are they going through? They must have got something going on in their life. You know what I mean? Right. To have some compassion and have some great compassion and then just put myself in other people's shoes.

Starting point is 01:01:08 Yeah. But not be so hard. Yeah. Like, I can totally relate to that. Like to isolate. These are the things I'm going to do. Something's uncomfortable. Something hurt me.

Starting point is 01:01:17 I'm going to do these things. I'm going to go hide. Yeah. That's what I do. I'm going to go hide. I go hide. And it makes sense as a child. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:01:25 It makes sense. A child would do that. It's a very childlike behavior. Yeah, man. I understand it is hard to get those things out of your system. It is, it's like the wiring is that. It is the wiring. And it's probably something I'll be battling.

Starting point is 01:01:40 Yeah. For battle of always. Yeah. Always. For the rest of my life. And I think just sitting here talking about it with you is going to help me hopefully move forward even if it's an inch to take that inch. Thanks, man.

Starting point is 01:01:53 Yeah. I think even, you know, like I know a lot of, I know there's a lot of guys that deal with that, that thing, why do I still practice the behaviors of a child when things in my life get tough? Yep. 100%. 100%. What?

Starting point is 01:02:09 So eight years ago, things got rough. How were you? Did you, were you like? I had a, I had a massive. Were you in a motel? Like how bad was it? I had a massive relapse. Oh, so you'd had some sobriety for a while at that point.

Starting point is 01:02:22 Yeah. You know, I was white knuckling it here there and trying to do it on my own. Never listened to anyone who had, you know, long-term sobriety. Hard to listen to people. Yeah. I thought I could handle it, didn't really want to be sober. I wanted to be normal. Why can't I be normal like everybody else, man?

Starting point is 01:02:41 And I'll figure it out. Yeah. Why can't I have a couple glasses of wine? You know, why can't I have a few beers? You know, oh, it was only when I brought this into my life that alcohol then turned into some huge issue. Right. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:02:55 Yeah, but if this isn't there, then this will be fine. And so I would try. Yeah. And I realized that as soon as I brought the alcohol back in my life, it led to this. And then this led to this. And so it was just this death spiral. Yeah. Crack a mole or something.

Starting point is 01:03:10 Yeah, exactly. You know, I ended up like Hunter Biden in a hotel or something. I mean, either. I didn't end up like that, man. You know what I mean? But... I've had some. But yeah.

Starting point is 01:03:20 Yeah. Oh. And then, you know, so I jumped in my truck during my last relapse. And drove from... Where were you? What's the good state to relapse? Drove from Florida. Florida man.

Starting point is 01:03:33 Yeah. Florida is. I was a Florida man in my truck. Yeah. And decided I'd drive to California, you know, in little circles all over the United States. I mean, it made sense in the state that I was in, in my mind, until I ran out of money. And, you know, being the loving family that I have, you know, that was the only thing they could think of to do was to...

Starting point is 01:04:00 Cut you off? Cut me off. You know, make sure I had no access so I wouldn't continue to spiral. To your own money? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, you got to do that. You got to do that if someone's on a death wish and, you know, I appreciate that.

Starting point is 01:04:15 And so... But anyway, you know, I did that and during that process, on the road, man, I just put on the GPS and somehow I ended up in places that just make absolute no sense whatsoever. You know, my wife asked me one time, she was, you know, when you were on that trip, why were you in San Angelo, Texas? I was like, I have no idea. And then she's like, and then why'd you go from there back to Mississippi? And I'm like, I have no idea.

Starting point is 01:04:48 I was just following the GPS, you know, so I guess it would reroute. You know how your GPS will reroute sometime? And so, and I don't even know why I was headed to California. I think you got a Lewis and Clark edition, I think. Yeah, I think I did. I actually believe I had one of the most intense and incredible spiritual experiences of my entire life. I have never really got into the details of everything that I went through on that trip

Starting point is 01:05:17 in my psyche. But everything coming out of me and everything that was going on, you know, it really did a number on my brain. And I'll never forget it. You know, I had some experiences that were, I think, akin to what some people feel like they have when they go to Peru and do, what's that drive? Hiawasca. Hiawasca.

Starting point is 01:05:41 Yeah. Or another, you know, mescaline or some spiritual experience. I had that kind of experience. You know, there was a, there was a moment where I felt and I saw an angel on the hood of my truck and I was following that angel wherever it was taking me. And I had a bunch of stuff I had thrown into the back of my car. I had like three Dolly paintings. Dolly Pardon?

Starting point is 01:06:03 Dolly. Oh, Salvador Dolly. Right. Wow. And somehow I end up at a Catholic church somewhere in Mississippi or in Louisiana. And I just felt like I should pull over and give those Dolly paintings to that church. So I'm carrying them in and there's no one there. It's like the middle of the night and I set them down and then the priest walks out and

Starting point is 01:06:28 I said, Hey man, I don't know why I'm here. I think God brought me here to give you these paintings. And he goes, man, our, our school's about to shut down because we don't have funding. Thank you. And then I just took off. And now he eventually got in touch with me like two or three years later and, and returned them once, you know, but I still got back on their feet. I think once he realized or at least had heard that, that maybe I wasn't in my right state

Starting point is 01:06:57 of mind at the time, but even to this day, I feel like, I feel like I was supposed to be there. I'm never sure that with anybody, but I feel like I was supposed to be there. I feel like I was supposed to give him those. I don't know why I feel that way inside, but I do. So the act of, it's also the act of giving something that means something to you, giving it away to somebody else, sharing, I think all those things are like sometimes clues that we can get out of actions that we get led to do, you know, sometimes it's not even

Starting point is 01:07:24 about that exact action, but just the feelings that it, uh, or the, it's not about the exact thing, but it's about the action, you know, sometimes it's a reminder of the value of it. I mean, at the time I felt like I was on some type of spiritual or in the middle of some type of spiritual experience. Now, do you, was that like, uh, were you, did you think, were you having like a breakdown then kind of you think? I think so.

Starting point is 01:07:53 Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people have that. Because things were coming out of my body. Uh, and, uh, you know, uh, You're paying you mean, like things from, Well, well, prescriptions. Oh, I see.

Starting point is 01:08:04 So you were going through withdrawals. Yeah, I was going through a lot of stuff. Yeah. I was going through a lot of stuff. Oh, wow. Yeah. Um, and, uh, you know, and it, and it took me on this, this path and, and I think my core and my subconscious when it's in crisis always turns to the spiritual realm turns

Starting point is 01:08:22 to God. Um, and so that's what got me through that situation because I felt like I was on some kind of mission. Ah. Um, and I think that ended up saving my life, uh, during that, you know, two and a half, three week, uh, road trip. Uh, and then I ended up in, in California and, and, you know, bless my, my wife for finding me and, and helping me, you know, get into, uh, you know, a treatment center to get sober.

Starting point is 01:08:49 And, and, and that's where I finally got it. And that's where I was like, enough. Yeah. I'm done. I'm done. And it, yeah. And it's the deep breath of, I'm done. Man, when you get to that point of I'm done and you really mean it in your core, nothing's

Starting point is 01:09:06 taking you back. You're done. Yeah. And it's such a superpower to have because I smoked for years and chewed tobacco for years and I realized I can't do this anymore. So I'm done. And I quit. Once you get that, I'm done with something.

Starting point is 01:09:25 You can apply it in so many areas of your life to make changes. Um, and I found that, uh, to be a principal, uh, that I live by now, nothing's making me go back. Right. Nothing. Nothing. You know, that's, it's like, that's pretty interesting because it's hard. It's a, a lot of times I wonder how much I've accepted like the first step in a lot of these

Starting point is 01:09:47 programs, you know, that I am powerless over whatever can be anything and that I am willing to let a higher power help me like how much completely like, or do I still have some reservations inside? You know, it's like, that's when you say, I'm done. It's like, oh, even me just made me take a deep breath. It was like, damn. Yeah. To be done to be, I'm done with this pain with this circle of me trying to treat myself.

Starting point is 01:10:17 I'm just, I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. And that can, that mindset and that saying can apply to anything in your life that's toxic. You know, it can apply to relationships. It can apply to work environments. It can apply to anything out. It doesn't have to just be drugs or alcohol.

Starting point is 01:10:36 Yeah. Oh, totally. You know, anything, and it can be a mindset. It can be your health. Uh, you know, it's just, I'm done living this way. And then you change. And how much relief that part of you inside of you feels when it finally hears it and knows that you mean it.

Starting point is 01:10:54 And then once you do it, and you've got some time under your belt, you start feeling strong. You start, you start feeling a sense of, of strength and integrity and, and in, in personal integrity and you start reclaiming parts of your life that you've lost, but it's different. It'll never be the same, you know, that, that youthful, idealistic, innocent view of the world is gone. Um, you know, it's hard to let that go. Mine was robbed. It was just taken.

Starting point is 01:11:25 From when you were young. You mean? Uh, no. Oh, even just, just from drugs and alcohol. Yeah. Yeah. As I got older, because I still, for a long period of my life, even though I should have learned in my childhood that I couldn't trust anybody, not even my parents, um, I went

Starting point is 01:11:43 into the world with just, you know, eyes wide open, no pun intended, uh, to the song arms wide open. Yeah, totally. But trusting everyone, you know, I can't tell you how many business managers that I trusted just because they had a couple of kids lived in the suburbs and had a suit on who robbed me blind. Yeah. Damn, really?

Starting point is 01:12:04 You know, yeah, man. I mean, you know, it's, it's again, things we talked about earlier, things that I felt like I should have learned years ago. And then you're hard on yourself about it because you're like, man, what do you feel stupid? Don't you know it? Oh, you feel stupid. You feel stupid.

Starting point is 01:12:21 And you look back and you reflect and you go, why? I'd never do that now. I'd never do that now. I see so clearly now. I see all the red flags now. Why couldn't I see it then? Uh, and you know, that's life. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:12:35 It's life. Like you're saying, and we got to like focus on what we can control and focus what's in front of us. Exactly. That's what we are. And take it one day at a time. That is such a powerful thing that can apply to, to everything in your life, no matter what you're going through, not just drugs or alcohol.

Starting point is 01:12:51 Yeah. Um, you know, I often say to people, man, I can do anything for 24 hours. You know what I mean? I think I could endure some, some extreme torture if I had to, right, for 24 hours. Uh, now don't test me on that. Yeah. I'm just using that as, as an example of, so once you get to the point where life becomes so size down or smaller, right?

Starting point is 01:13:17 It's manageable. It's manageable. Right. Cause when I think, man, I went through this breakup, I'm not going to, I'm going to feel like this for two years. I'm not, I can't handle this. Of course. I can't handle that.

Starting point is 01:13:27 I can't handle two years of feeling this way in one day because that's all I can actually feel it in right now. So I have to put it in with thing. Can I handle this today? Today. Right. I have made some mistakes today. Can I handle that?

Starting point is 01:13:41 Um, I drank last night, I didn't want to, can I handle that for today instead of thinking that for the next two years, I'm going to be, you know, take, you know, not live up to the goals that I set. Yeah. And, and whatever pain you're enduring, right, uh, in life, you know, Hey, I just got to get through it today. Yeah. It's not going to last forever.

Starting point is 01:14:01 You know, one day the sun will rise again. So whatever you're going through, it's, it's just, just make it small, get through today and then wake up and do the same thing all over again. Yeah. And, uh, can I get through today again? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Starting point is 01:14:18 And then it adds up. You had, um, you guys, you guys just banned, Cree's got, gets thrown in over the years with like, they're always become things that get so big that then they kind of get not kind of put on a list of that it's like not cool or something. Like Nickelback got put there, Dane Cook got put there. There was a list that came out just recently of like the 10 uncoolest bands Nirvana was on the list. Right.

Starting point is 01:14:46 It's crazy. It's crazy, right? That's crazy. But there's a thing that happens in society. Yeah. I notice it where something gets so big that a generation later, it becomes like a thing where it's not cool, right? You know, for, of course it's not that cool anymore.

Starting point is 01:15:02 Anyway, because it's, it's time is like, you know, it was in a certain era of time and stuff. So it's still, but you know what I'm talking about? It kind of gets like, No, I know exactly what you're talking about. And it's funny. I've talked about this before, you know, I went from being on the cover of magazines with the headline, you know, Scott Stapp is this summer's rock and roll savior to, you

Starting point is 01:15:25 know, the worst band of all time. People say Cree, people say like Nickelback, Dane Cook, people say use those, these things that were like hit like a level of, of, of stardom. Right. Well, you, you know what, it, it, it wasn't, it wasn't America. It wasn't the people of the world. It was the press and it was the critics who and, and, and the media who have this or have had this control over the hearts and minds of the population, you know, and, and program

Starting point is 01:16:02 in your mind, you know, what's acceptable, what's not, what's cool, what's not. And they can turn on you in a dime if you don't play by their rules. Yeah. Or, or if you get so big, they fear they can't control you anymore. And so that's what happened. There was a shift, especially when, you know, the, the Christian narrative came out and, and there is some deliberate, you know, all throughout my music, Christian references and, and references to salvation and, and those were intentional.

Starting point is 01:16:34 But when you're doing that in the devil's playground, and you're doing that in secular, you'll fight back music, yeah. And on every level, you know, with the press personally, you know, and, you know, so there was a takedown and, and now it's coming back around, you know, I'm, I'm proud. I'm a meme. Yeah. Oh, it's cool. How many people get to be a meme?

Starting point is 01:17:03 Fuck. You know what I mean? Like, and, and it was so funny when I saw, or not when I saw one day I was driving my, my nephew and my son, my oldest son, Jagger, uh, to either school or some practice or, or something. And they were giggling in the backseat. I was like, what are you guys laughing at? And they were just kept laughing.

Starting point is 01:17:20 And then all of a sudden I hear, we're home, and then my nephew just busts out laughing. You know what I mean? And my own son, who I wrote the song about is making fun of me, mimicking my voice. And I was like, what? And now this was before everyone else was doing it, you know what I mean? Like, you know, cause the last 10 years it's really become like a thing, you know? And I, uh, never thought that, you know, thank you. I'm glad.

Starting point is 01:17:49 Man, how many people get, get, get to have that and be a part of a generation of people and tie into a new generation. Yeah. Man, I'm blessed. Thank you. And now my daughter wants to wear Creed shirts to school and she's learning Mark Trimani guitar riffs on her Les Paul. It's cool.

Starting point is 01:18:08 Yeah. Um, well, I think it's gone through that system. I think it's like, there was that like, yeah, just, for some reason it's like that roulette ball landed on you guys, it sure did seem like, and this is from an outsider's perspective. And then, but now it's like, I told a lot of people you were coming, I was excited and all of them were fucking stoked, you know? So it was cool. It was like, man, oh, I want to know like what his journey's been like, what's going

Starting point is 01:18:32 on. So yeah, I think like you're saying, it's like to even be able to have any still relevance to see your daughter, to see people wearing your shirts with like, you know, I'm sure it's the same. I mean, she's 15. Yeah. And it's crazy how these young people have like a different respect for, for music. The nineties are making a comeback.

Starting point is 01:18:51 Yeah. Um, and it's just, it's just crazy and, and, and again, I have such gratitude for that. And also I have a sense of humor about the, the mimicry and, and, and the jokes and the jokes. Um, I do it myself. Yeah. Um, cause it's funny. Some of them are funny, man.

Starting point is 01:19:13 I got a sense of humor. It's, they're, they're good. Um, because what I found that happens is it starts, it started that way, but then people started digging in and going, well, what are people, what are the, what are people making fun of? Right. And they start listening to the music and then that's when it gets out of my hands. And I say that God used me despite myself.

Starting point is 01:19:32 And then the music goes, boom. I remember hearing, I think it was, who was it? It wasn't Jimmy Kimmel, who's the other guy, Gordon or whatever. Nope. Nope. Uh, Oh, I can't believe my mind just went blank. Seth Meyers.

Starting point is 01:19:47 He's huge. No. Black hair. Oh, ah, Rechtsaph، black hair. Uh, Reggie Jackson. No, not Reggie Jackson, man. It's a, uh, late night show. There he is.

Starting point is 01:19:58 Jimmy Fallon. Yeah, thanks for the reminder. Sorry, Jimmy. My mind went blank, dude. You're incredible. But he was talking one time on his show I think when he when he His his wife was pregnant or they just had a baby and he had been a creed mokker For a time because it was funny. It was good for stand-up, right? and he went to get diapers if I'm remembering the story correctly and Arms wide open came on and in Walmart or Target. Yeah, wherever he was and he finally got it It finally hit him as a father, but he had to become a father

Starting point is 01:20:36 to connect with the track and You know and and you know, I'm blessed that that that the music has been able to do that over power over the years and No, yeah, you know, that is really interesting. You never know when a song is gonna come and Because it's playing your your music's playing People's music is playing all over all the time and you never know when that track is gonna hit you the right way or hit somebody the right way that Keeps them off of a bridge that keeps a needle out of their arm

Starting point is 01:21:08 Yeah, that keeps their mother's love in their heart that keeps their new love for their child inside of them You know and it makes it blossom and and and I'm and I'm hoping and That that's why I'm still here, right that's why God's kept me alive Yeah, a lot of guys look if you look back through like I'm thinking of like Shannon. Who do you know that is? Yeah, Chris Cornell. Yeah, you look back through Bennington Yes, you look Kurt Cobain. Yeah a lot of the guys from a A little before you some of them in your era just from the net from 90s and to that like yeah early

Starting point is 01:21:47 2000s a lot of guys died and I should be one of them multiple times There's there's not a single reason on on planet Earth that I should be alive right now It's a miracle And I have to remind myself of that and be grateful and show gratitude and I forget that all the time It's hard, you know what I mean after that all the time Um, did you were there times where you did you ever overdose? Did you ever get to the point where you were I did some crazy stuff and and and had some some accidents? Oh, it's so scary, isn't it? You know, yeah, you can hide on drugs

Starting point is 01:22:22 Yeah, and and I had some accidents and and that I should not have survived And you know, thank the good Lord that that that I have because I wouldn't have my two youngest boys They wouldn't exist they wouldn't exist wow and then, you know, my my others would not have a father and so I'm just grateful and then I and I still get to make music today And still get to put out new stuff and people still show up And I have gratitude for that. I don't take it for granted like I did in my 20s because I did I took it for granted I did I did I I became someone who just who just felt like I was just in the moment so much that I had no perspective I had no

Starting point is 01:23:14 10,000-foot view on on my life and the people around me I ended up taking my friends for granted my career for granted And you know, it's crazy man. I wish I could go back with what I know now But I can't so all I can do is take what I have now and apply that same principle and that same mindset And what I've learned and move forward and yes, you know, let things be as they are Well, you've gotten to have amazing experiences, which is kind of what this kind of an exceptional thing about life overall is to be able to have You know, no one who gets to be a rock star, you know Who gets to be a father a lot of people can't even be a father

Starting point is 01:23:54 You're right, you know, like you've gotten and I'm so few of those Trajectories of stardom last like our life long. It's like yeah for all of us for anybody of comedian I always already think about like well, have I already hit my P? You know like in my you know, it's like and that may be it. It's still been at least you're thinking about it Right, you're self-aware So so you're you know as you're still rising because you're still rising, bro In my opinion well, thanks and and the fact that you found sobriety in this in this mindset that you have And and how smart you are and in the introspective

Starting point is 01:24:32 Mind that you have in the heart that you have man. That's a gift to the world. You know, I say all the time To to my wife and I've said it to some friends man people who can make people laugh are healers They're healers and you're a wounded healer like I am yeah, you know what I mean? But I appreciate your gift and what you do So much because laughter heals You know what I mean? And so you got to cherish the gift that you have and never take it for granted, bro

Starting point is 01:25:04 Yeah, because you're doing you're doing you're not it's not just funny and here today gone tomorrow All right, you're making an impact on people's hearts and you're bringing healing into their body And and then you speak truth into their life when you get on that roll man Yeah So don't stop brother don't stop man because you're changing lives and you're saving lives and and You know don't take it for granted if I can if I can share that with you because I'm I'm a person who did and I don't want To see that ever happen to you man. Thanks. God, man. I appreciate you saying that Yeah, I think back like I think

Starting point is 01:25:41 Yeah, I always wanted to feel happier when I was young and so I Couldn't do it like feel happy myself, but I could make other people laugh So it was like I almost like would live vicariously through when other people were laughing It'd be like oh man, it was like the closest I could get to feeling like happy, you know in a weird way But I appreciate that message man a sweet of you, dude And I and I appreciate you you know coming in and shared some of your own experiences You know because I think we're talking about and I've talked about some things that That other men are thinking about and that are part of their lives, you know

Starting point is 01:26:17 Well, let's not kid ourselves man. Life is real and it comes at us every day It's a gangster. You know what I mean? It's a fucking gangster dude. Total gangster I mean it wears boots and it wants to seek and destroy. It does huh? It really really does and And we've got to put on our armor every day and suit up And in me sharing this with you. I'm reminding myself. This is what I got to do And so you know man But we got to enjoy it somehow. Yeah, I mean there's there's a lot of facets to it, you know What do you think it was about those times when you look back on those?

Starting point is 01:26:58 likes, you know on Kurt Cobain on Shannon who you look back on Lane, I'm trying to think of Lane Staley Lane Staley. Yeah, when you look back on those musicians Do you think it was a time because those are all guys who lost their life? I think to addiction maybe Yeah, might be safe to say that in that realm pretty sure. Yeah Do you was it a time was it a I? Think it was a time. I think that there was a generation of artists and musicians That romanticized their idols that they grew up listening to and Like for me, I'll use my my example

Starting point is 01:27:39 You know Jim Morrison was one of those and so I thought that You know a guy a lead singer in a band and a rock star was supposed to do everything that Jim Morrison did not even thinking that It's what killed him. I thought I was supposed to do that. It was my right of passage And so I can't say that that's what everyone else thought but definitely the rock-and-roll lifestyle Was something that I thought was just you know part of the job description and And had no foresight or knowledge that it could kill me Yeah, I guess there is there's that well, I have to be like a rock star

Starting point is 01:28:19 What a fucking pressure it sounds great, right until you get there and have to do it, right? And that's what I love about a lot of this generation of Up-and-coming musicians and artists in all genres is sobriety is cool. Yeah being responsible is cool Showing up is cool being on time is putting on a good show is cool Yeah, you know and and and so hopefully that that's the impression that the the next generation We'll see and that's what I try to tell these young up-and-comers that I run into And but that's what I'm seeing on the streets. Yeah in in my business. Yeah, same as in comedy Yeah, you see a lot of it a lot of the a lot of great comedians are sober or a lot of you know working comedians are sober

Starting point is 01:29:10 I don't know how people could do it not being sober looking back. I don't know how I did it at times You know at the end In order to get there. I couldn't I couldn't do it Had I been in some kind of you know pervasive active and active addiction But at the end I was and I look at look at that and I'm like I don't know how I did it that last a couple years But I definitely didn't do it. Well Yeah Did you while were there any amends that you had to make like any did you burn any bridges with friends?

Starting point is 01:29:45 Did you have to go back and do that kind of stuff 100% Wow? Yeah, I mean, I think that's Powerful. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's what you it's what you have to do to clear the wreckage of your past It's what you have to do. I think to move forward, you know I just used recovery lingo you get it but to those that aren't in in a recovery Program or know the lingo in order sometimes to move forward and grow as a human being You do have to clear up the past especially yeah with the people that you've hurt And also I had to forgive and get rid of resentments And like you were talking about a couple of them took a long time

Starting point is 01:30:25 I mean, I can name a I'm not gonna name a couple but a couple of them just resolved like in during COVID Wow Wow, you know and I almost like I don't want to thank COVID for happening, but it sure did push me into a deeper Spiritual journey and a deeper place of self-awareness and growth than I would have been had it not happened And it and it definitely allowed me to have the time and the space Mentally and emotionally To resolve some of those resentments that I just could not let go of Wow It's funny you say that I didn't really realize that for myself. I there were I kind of hit a couple years ago. I

Starting point is 01:31:08 Kind of had burnout I've been working so hard and also I'd had a lot of stuff from my childhood that I'd never dealt with and it was that stuff Will find a way out of you hundred percent. It will find a way to this I mean it is like a champagne and those bubbles will find their way to the top a hundred percent and And it was killing me it was killing me I mean I was miserable. I remember sitting in my garage like I mean wishing thinking that I might this might kill me because I can't handle

Starting point is 01:31:40 how I feel I I can't stand myself and I'm addicted to my and I'm and I'm all I think about at the same time right and so it just felt You know, it's not a pit poor me story It's just like that I didn't realize if it weren't for Kobe if I'd have been able to have some of those moments You know, look at it like this. It's it's like a butterfly in a cocoon. You were cocooning man At at the at a next stage in your life. Yeah, you know what I mean? And who knows what goes on in that cocoon, but that's what went on in your cocoon and then you came out of it Yeah, now I feel like I'm slowly taking some time. It's taking a lot of work

Starting point is 01:32:17 It's taking connecting with other people. Yes, that's a big problem for me. Is it a big problem for me is is at my age And just with how my life is is developing friendships now I used to be I used to have a million friends. Yeah, you know, I used to Making friends was easy and put and now it's it's it's gotten to the point for me where you know, I had my family You know, and so I think for me I need more men Yeah, that are my friends that I'm accountable to that we have good times We do guy stuff But also that we're we hold each other accountable and inspire each other

Starting point is 01:33:01 Hmm, you know what I mean? Because that's the kind of people you want in your life Yeah, some people that can try to be honest with you here and there and also inspire you and also make you want to be a better man Yeah, and You know, I need that in my life And so we'll have to go do something. So you want to be friends? I don't know if I'll help you I don't know if it'll help either one of us, but I think we'll give it. I think we can try we can who's saying that song better Man can't fuck that was Pearl Jam. Oh, yeah That was that was that was the band that that every band that came out after Pearl Jam with a singer that had a

Starting point is 01:33:35 semi-baritone voice Got compared to Hoody in the blowfish. Oh, yeah Was called a Pearl Jam ripoff. Really? Can you believe that? Oh, no But if you go back and look at the articles, you'll find them. Wow, you know, and they're nothing like Pearl Jam Creed is nothing like Pearl Jam. Yeah, we're more of a metal based Band because of of Mark Tramani's influences and what he brought to the table musically than we ever were But because of the tone and the timber

Starting point is 01:34:05 You know, you get the comparisons and hey, what an honor What an incredible yeah, what an incredible band and a band that that's really Lived on and stood the test of time and and and still, you know selling out arenas and stadiums today, man We're there in what was the what was like a big influence to you? Maybe growing up. Yeah, musically. Yeah The biggest influence on me musically was you too. Yeah In the way that I approached how a band should be And also how I approached My my songs and how I wanted to make people feel because I remember there was like a two or three-year period in my life

Starting point is 01:34:44 Where I could not get the Joshua tree out of my cassette deck in my Datsun B210 mustard yellow with honeycomb rims Yeah 1973 baby, I think comes with an erection Fire it was fire. Oh, that's awesome. I went down. I got a Mac stereo Yeah, radio shack put that in there, man And I was bumping and that's all I listened to that's all I listened to and and That music it saved me during a period of my life. Yeah inspired me It made me feel a certain way and so when I began songwriting

Starting point is 01:35:22 I knew I had a good song when I knew it made me feel like you too made me feel on that particular album And so that's who I always strove Or strive to be and wanted my music to make people feel It's interesting man. Yeah, I think because we sound nothing. I'm sorry interrupt. We sound nothing like him, right? What man, what album was that you too? You bring that up Joshua tree. Let's see it Joshua tree album How'd you get the album did you had you first hear about you heard it on the radio I I a Friend of mine had it and I lied to my parents and told them they were a Christian band. Wow, I Snuck it in man. Yeah, and if you listen to the to the lyrics on that record

Starting point is 01:36:08 You could convince your parents that they were a Christian band if you played them certain snippets here and there in God's country there's one there you go right there hey and You know, but that album is Probably in my opinion one of the greatest albums ever written And Check it out if you haven't heard it. I found a cassette tape. I was working in Arizona I found a cassette tape. It was the Beatles Abbey Road, right? And I'd never heard the Beatles like I didn't know my mother I think would sometimes listen to some

Starting point is 01:36:42 my mother would spank us and then make us clean the house and listen to Brian Adams and make us sing the songs while she did Adam's everything. I do One of us is still made me cry when I saw the movie. Oh, really? Yeah, the Robin Hood movie when oh, yeah, that's all with Kevin Costner Oh, it Kevin comes in in that moment after you've watched the whole movie do your your eyes have to water right? Yeah, exactly exact. I would just be scrubbing comment on the kitchen floor and you wanted to fall in love just like that Didn't you fucking off in Wendex? My sister getting beaten in the kitchen. Oh, I feel you

Starting point is 01:37:26 And we used to listen to the Travelin Wille Berry she would play and she would play What else one more album that she would play Oh Muddy waters muddy waters. That's that's a that's a diverse collection. It was good. She played. Yeah, she had some taste She did have some taste man. She did and I remember but I found the Abbey Road cassette tape one time when I was working in Arizona And I put it in my player and I would know exactly how long my cigarette would last through a certain amount of songs Wow, how long it would take me to drive from one place to another place. I would play that that's serious OCD. Yeah, I was Dialed in

Starting point is 01:38:04 Yeah, I loved that there was something I loved more about that time before this phone before social media where it was like The cassette tape was like everything was a little more purposeful. It was like I'm playing this I have to it's gonna take me a second I have to play this song even though I'm not playing it music musically But I have to put it in the thing get the thing there where it is and you listen to the whole thing At least I did I listened to the whole thing like oh, yeah when I would sneak down to my friend's house and listen to death leopard pyromania, which was another Huge inspiration on me. I remember being nine years old and and photograph came on MTV and I couldn't watch MTV at my house

Starting point is 01:38:40 But I was down at my friend's house and his parents were gone and Photograph came on and there was this cool rock and roll singer and he had there was this hot chick in the video And I'm up on the on the coffee table with a tennis racket playing air guitar and I'm looking I'm like I want to be just like him. You know what I mean? And so that was another band that that Inspired the rock star So I heard you and yeah, that crazy. Yeah, man. It's crazy. Some of the things we speak out Yeah, that you don't know if the if the universe is listening. Yeah, man

Starting point is 01:39:14 It is gotta be careful what we say. I know because it may it may come true You know, I mean the the greatest I think that the the number one thing that changed my life is I was so bad in school and elementary school. Yeah, they didn't know what to do with me So They pulled me out of class and I'm my desk Yeah, it's not even I know my desk was in the principal's office because I spent so much time there They just put a desk in there. So that's where I went every day and so and so the music teacher comes in the office and

Starting point is 01:39:50 My birth name is Anthony and so She she said Anthony. What are you doing in here? And I was like, well, this is where I have to come to school And she was really Why and I was like because I cut Jenny's ponytail off with scissors and Because I did and I don't know why I did I just did and Needed a trim and and I like to stand up on my desk and dance when the teacher would turn her back Oh, you like to act out. Yeah, and you know, and I just I guess I prevented others from learning

Starting point is 01:40:21 Yeah, and so so she came in and she said hey, I want you to come to the gym after school and I want to see if you're you interested in being in course And I said well, I can sing like and I started singing to her all the songs that whatever on the radio like Phil Collins Was was really big when I was in elementary school. Yeah Oh, I remember riding on the bus and that song was playing And I was just like yeah, and I'd be singing at the top of my lungs and whatever was on the radio. I could mimic And I would mimic

Starting point is 01:40:55 And so I had kind of a sense of pride in in how I could sing And so when she brought that up, I was like, yeah, absolutely. I'll come And so I went to the gym after school and and tried out and she was like well I like how you sing and she gave me My first solo when I was nine years old at the school play was yesterday by the Beatles Beatles and I sang that song and the crowd cheered and I believe that was the beginning of the calling being manifest into my life and I owe it all

Starting point is 01:41:32 To that music teacher Who asked me what I was doing in the principal's office every day? Oh? I wish I could find her. Hmm Yeah, that's interesting man. It's interesting how though the little way the avenue that it comes to the surface, you know Well, it's weird. It's all it's like it's all scripted out You know somebody the other who is that talking to the other day? They said that life. It's all Ready been written and we're just living it out. I wonder sometimes Kind of crazy. I wonder sometimes. It's wild to think

Starting point is 01:42:07 Um, I know whenever you would spoke you and I spoke on the phone before before you came in the other day Just you know to make sure each other were human beings, right? And you talked about it just kind of some wild experiences at church just some of that church vibe growing up Yeah, what was some of that like like take I just want to go into a little bit of that just so I have a little bit of a concept of what that With the tangible world of that. I had some very very strange experiences because this is down in Florida now This down in Florida. Yeah, this is where the Lord goes on vacation. Oh, absolutely. Jesus is there right now He's riding rides at Disney World

Starting point is 01:42:44 You know, uh, come to me, you know all the children But you know, they were speaking in tongues. There was prophesying You know, Benny Hinn. Yeah, okay. We we went to his church Really? He prophesied over me when I was like nine years old. I'll never forget it. I'm trying to find the tape because I know That he they filmed. Yeah, there's gotta be one. They filmed his his whatever but my parents visited his church and This is strength. This is a crazy story. He called everybody forward all the kids And uh, you know, he was doing his deal where he walks by and touches your head and you fall down

Starting point is 01:43:21 Bring a picture up with Benny Hinn there. Yeah, bring him up. Let's see this. Let's see this man I remember they used to do my dad used to drink and watch him There he is There's a man. Oh boy and and I think I've shared this story maybe one or two times Or maybe I wrote wrote about it in in my first book Uh, what was the book called this one? It's called sinners creed. Okay Now it was a little censored because it was with a christian publisher a lot censored a lot a lot of stuff that I let that, you know but uh

Starting point is 01:43:53 So I went forward because all the kids went forward. Uh, and I was determined That this man was not going to push me down because I was convinced that that's what he was doing And so I was standing right next to a pew and I had my my left arm on the pew and I positioned my back foot You know like where I was I was bracing myself. There ain't no way I'm falling down And man, everyone's dropping dropping dropping dropping and he gets up to me and he stops No lie And he says This young man's gonna affect millions of people's lives and then started speaking in tongues and did his hand like that

Starting point is 01:44:30 And I fell right to the floor no way. Yep. I'll never forget how I felt too I felt like when I woke up Tears were coming down my face and I felt like I had just rinsed my insides out with listerine or scope. That's how my insides felt Wow, I'll never forget it. It's a true story man. And and and I'm telling you man. I tried with so I don't know what How he does it or you know, you know, they call it the spirit of God

Starting point is 01:45:00 Um, but I it happened and and and it happened that day and I felt it So I had experiences like that right uh happened to me as a child Did you believe that it? Had an effect on any of your did you you believe that you remembered that over time or that part? Absolutely. Wow Absolutely, I think it affected my ego Uh, and I think it was a part of Somewhere back there a part of my drive because I believed

Starting point is 01:45:29 When I met mark and we started the band You were not convincing me that we weren't going to be the biggest rock band in the world. I knew it. I already knew it, right? Uh, nobody else did and there's a story and and my band will tell you we had this drummer Uh, that kept not showing up Uh for or a bass player Uh, who kept not showing up for band practice Uh, and so I fired him And I said you just missed out on being in the biggest rock band in the world and this is before we even played a show

Starting point is 01:46:01 Wow That's my crazy, but I was crazy, right? I was I was that guy But you have to maybe be that I was crazy and I believed it Um, it was arrogant definitely an arrogant thing to say. Yeah, but I believed it. I believed it in my heart Um, somebody has to believe it though and uh and and the guys I think that conviction and that Drive I think was contagious um, and and and it happened for us and and uh Uh, the odds of that. Yeah. Well, I also think that that goes to you know

Starting point is 01:46:37 A lot of people talk about you know manifestation and speaking things into uh Into existence and and whatnot and I don't know about where I sit and what I feel about all that stuff But if I look back on my life A lot of that played out You know a lot of that played out. Yeah, it sounds like it, you know, it's powerful I think about all the time that I spend talking or running things in my head that are unhelpful to me Not necessarily negative because I do do much less like uh berating myself for things these days

Starting point is 01:47:10 I'm not as hard on myself. I can notice when it's popping up But how much if I just woke up into the world and said this is what I want You know This is what I would love. This is how few times do I have I done that in my life? Right spoken out into The living existing world and then take action What my and not only but also then get a feeling of what the actions to take are but yes and believe it and Believe it. There was nobody that could tell me at the time different. I had blinders on And if if you weren't in tune with my vision, I couldn't see you. Wow

Starting point is 01:47:50 Uh and uh You know, it's crazy. I was that crazy guy I absolutely was that crazy guy and then I was ended up being that crazy guy in public quite a few times. Yeah But uh, you know, I think it takes a little bit of crazy Like you like you had alluded to uh to To make it and and to do what you got to do to make it Yeah, it's it's hard. It's a hard. It's hard to make it Yeah, it's hard to make it. It's hard to sustain it and it's so much

Starting point is 01:48:23 Once you have some like because you want to get the most out of yourself You want to get the most out of the opportunity Your for me you get scared of what steps you're supposed to take or what's supposed to be next kind of That's one of the first things that happens I remember I got this god I don't say it was like a god complex for a while, but I got like this Like guys would call into the podcast that were struggling with stuff and I started thinking Man god's using me. I absolutely had the same thing to help like

Starting point is 01:48:54 I'm some and it was it was awesome because I think some of it might have been true that god was using me Because I had a voice and there were people who struggled with the same stuff. I did but then part of me Started it was like this is impossible. I can't help every single person I can't well, I think part of part of why I had that complex for a number of years was because My abusive stepfather had that complex And and then the types of churches that I went to Imprinted that complex On you really? Yeah. I mean you don't

Starting point is 01:49:27 I mean just with with everything that they they would tell you About your destiny and about the plan and you know god has these enormous plans for your life And he's going to use you to change the world. I mean I'd be delusional if I thought that I was the only one Benny Hinn said that to I bet he said it to all of them Right, you know, you know what I mean? So if you say it to everybody, you're going to get one, right? You know what I mean? So I think I think growing up in that time of of Jim Baker and and Benny Hinn and the evangelical movement

Starting point is 01:50:02 Yeah, the assembly of god movement. They were imprinting that destiny on young people's minds so For everyone that did go on to do something that impacted You know their community or or their state or or The united states or the world If they were raised in that environment, I'm sure they dealt with A little bit of a god complex if they grew up the same way and was programmed is what I call it

Starting point is 01:50:33 The same way that I was programmed growing up. Yeah program is wild man Did you guys ever have anna male you come into the thing? Did y'all ever do like it because I went to one church where they had I went to a church that did you ever see the guy? They uh, it was the Crystal Cathedral. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Remember that one with robert schimmel. Uh, no not robert schimmel. No shuler shuler Yes, yeah with shuler. Absolutely. So those doors opened up on the back of the church I went I would go there sometimes with this older lady that I knew and I met her on this boat actually but so

Starting point is 01:51:12 We would go and one time as a lady sitting next to me the doors open up a butterfly comes in And lands on this old lady's face. I mean just lands right in her makeup And I said to her I said hey you have a butterfly in your face. She goes. Oh, that's my son She said he died in a car accident like 14 years ago In today's his birthday and sometimes he comes and visits me when I come here. Wow It was just a crazy experience, but I remember that that was what a church where uh Where I took um Where it was on television and stuff. Yeah, you know, yeah

Starting point is 01:51:43 Um Anyway, uh I feel like we've talked about a pretty good bit man. Do you think? We sure have I've talked about things. I've never talked about really. Yeah, I've never shared some of this stuff and I I think it's cool To that we've opened up these doors because it it It can give me a perspective It's giving me a unique perspective on how my mindset was

Starting point is 01:52:10 Uh at the time and and we're all a product. I guess of of how we were raised. Yeah, um And and what was put inside of us? Uh at our formative years I know and then we're all battling though. It's like it's like and then and then we get away and then we get to a point Where we're like, well, who am I outside of this? Right? um Do I believe this because it was put in me since I was a child

Starting point is 01:52:37 Or am I choosing to believe in this because it's really my choice Uh, and that's where for me, I decided to go the polar opposite direction for a time and paid the price You mean the polar opposite direction and what not doing music or? Not living that lifestyle. Oh, not not living a lifestyle That I was raised in in the christian world. Oh, I see, you know, but did it make sense kind of like, you know, I used to rationalize with god Uh in my prayers and I'd say, well god, how am I supposed to help a drug addict?

Starting point is 01:53:11 If I don't become a drug addict. Oh, wow How am I supposed to help someone struggling with alcohol? If I don't drink and and you know, and I used to rationalize that and and Literally, this was my prayers. How am I supposed to help someone with with with, you know, a problem with women if if if I don't Right, you know, if I don't get out here and get out and and and be that guy Um, and and that was my that was my rationale to god god. I'm doing you know god I'm doing this because I want to help people. Yeah, that's some bull crap, isn't it right there? Yeah, well, it's just interesting how we could I'm trying to think if I can relate to that

Starting point is 01:53:52 um, I can certainly relate to and I'm sure a lot of people can have of like um Knowing what I'm doing isn't good for me or right and continuing to do it. Yeah, you know, I absolutely did that but for me having the the you know the The indoctrination that I had How can I do this if I don't have the experience right? Right? Wow, that's interesting, right? And I used to use the reference of of of Solomon in the bible in my prayers with god

Starting point is 01:54:27 I was like I was like god, you know, you made him the wisest man on the planet And he went out and did everything against you and experienced everything under the sun You know worship other gods did every drug You know did other religions and whatnot and and so I would use bible stories Oh, wow that I had reference to discuss with god, right as as like well god. How am I supposed to do this? You know what? I mean, and this is when I was younger and thought that I was supposed to be You know a preacher or have some kind of spiritual calling on my life, which I ended up on the flip side

Starting point is 01:55:06 Having happened Anyway, I did end up You know having an impact For god right through my music. Yeah, even though I ran the complete opposite direction. That's how we were talking about earlier Right god will use you despite yourself Um, at least I believe but the excuses that I used to make for sin Damn, we're in we're incredible. We're incredible. Well, and also the fact that you thought that you had to you know, like which I mean, of course you do if you have a relationship with god

Starting point is 01:55:33 Then you're gonna have to have some communication with and even through all that even through the darkest times in my life um I still would be communicating and talking with god Wow, even even though I was living as far away from A life of someone who's a christian or someone who is in in the church or someone who knows right and wrong I would still be in communication with god um And make you know trying to rationalize, you know what I was doing

Starting point is 01:56:03 Um, it was really really really really was it painful really dark place. I bet really not a good place to be in And uh a place that I never want to go back to yeah Yeah, because you're almost playing hide and go seek with who you really want to be and stuff, right? Oh, well, you're not being authentic Oh, dude, I remember I would be I what I hated was Just praying god if you if if you just let me live through this night if I was really messed up You know high on drugs. I'd be like if you just let me live through this night I'll never do this again

Starting point is 01:56:38 And I mean praying that harder than I'd ever prayed anything and you believed it. Oh, I believed it And then you get through it and then you do it again. I would see yeah, right It's certainly yeah, I'd freak well. It's crazy how quick I'd forget about that deal I made right 100% It's interesting man being alive is interesting man And uh and having unique journeys is uh interested man, and you certainly had a lot of that um What's what's what's your passion now? Scott like what do you find yourself like with music? Where do you find yourself? Obviously being a father is very important to you

Starting point is 01:57:10 Yeah, um, yeah, that's that's a big passion of mine is just being a father and being involved in my kids lives Of course music. I love the creative process. I love writing songs I've realized that that That is probably one of the most fulfilling Things in my life is that creative moment where inspiration comes and then the excitement afterwards Uh, you know, it's it's something I I crave and that I want uh on a regular basis um You know the the the fame and the

Starting point is 01:57:47 Everything that comes with that is not something that's even on my radar um, it's not something that You know motivates me Or something that I seek I just seek To be creative And and and chase that's my new drug. You know, that's my new alcohol chase chase that inspiration Um, and then also feeling it on stage when I perform

Starting point is 01:58:13 But it's interesting about fame to go back to like how much you you guys have me you could only have so much Like there's not even any other levels of you know fame even feels like this thing where it's like you can get more You can but it's like there's only so much you can have it's like your recognizable name Like your band was one of the biggest bands you played at the Super Bowl like I ended up being a prisoner in my own home Couldn't go anywhere. Really? Yeah, just because of yeah, I had to have uh 24 hour armed security really. Yeah live in Uh, there were there were death threats coming from religious extremists and there were death threats coming from

Starting point is 01:58:53 like Satan worshipers or people who People who thought I was the anti-christ or it was crazy, man. I didn't I didn't had a deal with it. Yeah and so It was it was not what I thought it was going to be from that standpoint now On the road in the arenas You know on the the television performances in the big stages. It was it was incredible. It was everything I had thought it's manageable. Yeah Um, but off the road. It was a very lonely

Starting point is 01:59:24 experience And it probably creates a lot of paranoia too. I would bet a hundred percent that you don't even notice paranoia growing How well I remember I remember, uh, you know when those death threats came in and and my management told me that they were credible Um, I remember walking off stage one time and having this massive anxiety because there were all these red pin lights pointed at my heart You know and so we banned laser lights From arenas. Wow because I was so traumatized because how do you deal with that? I'll be so scared. I mean, I still had a mattress shared with my bass player in Tallahassee

Starting point is 02:00:01 You know what I mean in an apartment that was like a thousand bucks a month And we're playing arenas. I'm not prepared for that kind of stuff. Yeah, you know, and so I didn't handle it too well God, you know Was there ever a point where like any of the satanists came at you like actually like broken your home or and you know No, uh sheep on fire. I did have someone and I lived in a gated secured community Um and had um, live in armed security at the time and someone did Get over the fence and did show up at my door

Starting point is 02:00:35 barefoot in a dress Man or woman woman. She had a stack of papers to prove to me that I was the father of her four children at the time I was Probably 26 and her kids were like 22 19

Starting point is 02:00:56 18 and 17. So I was their father. So maybe the 17 year old and And jim Morrison Was our father. So we were brother and sister Wow Yeah, did you sit down and talk about it with her for at least no, I had I had to I had to close the door and call security Because I mean, I had my my baby son in my arms. Oh, yeah, you know, it was so it was uh It was scary, huh? Yeah, it was it was definitely a interesting Story and situation was it scary how fast you went from being just like a guy who is playing music

Starting point is 02:01:29 And has his own goals and dreams and your band does to this other echelon thing Like did that happen extremely fast extremely fast? Wow, that's unbelievable. Yeah, because you can't go back There's no I mean, that's an elevator that you can't really go back, right? And we loved it. I mean, we loved it I mean, we loved it at the time, but looking back Not I was not emotionally capable Uh or built or prepared to handle everything that was thrown at me. I can totally relate to that You know what I mean? Yeah, and uh, and so because of not having those tools I You know, I just bounced around and and and uh handle it the best I could and and I wasn't good enough at times

Starting point is 02:02:11 You still did a great job. I mean, it may have not been Yeah, I guess In the ways that it wasn't good enough. It wasn't good enough as what like a Co-worker kind of stuff or just just how I dealt with things. Yeah You know in in excess. Yeah, um and a lot of that I think was to was to initially You know to mask You know, whatever fear anxiety or or insecurity or just wanting to have a good time all of that. Oh, totally. Um And uh, you know didn't in well

Starting point is 02:02:47 You know, I mean, it's it's gone good overall overall But I'm sure there was a lot of stuff, but I'm just saying, you know, it it uh It can definitely play with you and I and I think you know, I'm not the only artist who who would tell this story Uh, you know in any genre work. I don't in any right, right um, because Who's really built for that? Uh, you know, it's so young. I mean, I'm sure there are some, you know, like right and they still struggle Well, especially not I don't think guys like

Starting point is 02:03:22 You and me. I think that are probably have similar traumas from you being when you say you don't have you're not emotionally built That's totally right. I still feel that way, man. Oh, yeah I still feel like today that I'm I look at I'll look at other families and I'll look at other dads Um, and I'll be like man I'm still Not where I need to be really I'm still yeah, I'm still not at least I feel that way about myself I'm still not emotionally And and maturity wise where I need to be and where I want to be

Starting point is 02:03:57 Um, and I your kids say about you What do my kids? What would what would they say you think would they agree with that? I don't know Just curious kind of like, you know Like what a kid's perception would be what of what the dad thinks of themselves, you know, I think my three at home uh Would say I'm a good dad and I love them and and uh They feel loved by me and that I'm present and I'm there And I think that's all I can be

Starting point is 02:04:24 It's a lot You know Yeah, I don't love A lot of people would love that Kind of think of as one. Oh, was there did you ever get to work with like Kurt Cobain or anything like that? No, I got to work for you doors. You got to work with the doors. Yes. Jim Morrison. I did no no No, he had passed unfortunately But the remaining member of the doors, which is just like

Starting point is 02:04:47 I mean, it's it's crazy to imagine That I got to go rehearse in la For a gig on vh1 with the remaining members of the doors and then record some songs with them play with them on television Uh, and I'm you know, just thinking back. I was 18 watching, you know, the doors movie Uh at a buddy's house And and Jim Morrison and the band, you know, they were an idol to me and then years later getting a chance to jam with them I mean, it's just it's insane. It's insane. That's crazy, but it was it was an incredible experience. It was good Was there an artist that you wanted to play with you that you didn't get to?

Starting point is 02:05:29 You too, yeah, yeah Dude, I got went to a mtv like movie awards something one time I get out of the car that I'm in and people are like going insane right and I thought it was for me, right? And then I realized that I'm walking right next to bono And I'm like, oh shit. Yeah It was exactly Hey, I forgot four seconds. I got to be bono though. Like I had no idea you got to feel the love Oh people are going crazy. I was like, this is I'm doing good. That's awesome. And I look then I realized it was him

Starting point is 02:05:57 That is awesome. Yeah, that is awesome. Yeah, that would be exceptional. Who knows though, man Who knows what the future holds, right? Who knows, man? Yeah, anything is possible. Yeah, it is. Yeah, um Scott, I appreciate you so much coming by man. Yeah, I'd love to we'll have to catch up sometime Yeah, man, we're not uh, you got my number. I got your number. Yeah, we've text So, yeah, don't be a stranger man. Stay in touch. I'd love to grab a meal or uh, yeah, man Just spend more time just chatting about this kind of stuff Yeah, I appreciate your time, man. Good to be here. Thanks for having me. You bet.

This Past Weekend - E412 Scott Stapp

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