This Past Weekend - E495 Trauma Expert Tim Fletcher

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

Tim Fletcher is the founder and president of RE/ACT (Recovery Education for Addictions and Complex Trauma). He is a counselor himself, as well as a researcher and pastor. Tim Fletcher joins Theo to delve into the world of complex trauma, recovery, and healing. They break down what the word “trauma” really means, how to see the side effects in yourself and others, how shame develops during childhood, the lasting effects these issues have on relationships, the powerful connection trauma has to addiction, and more. They also discuss different methods of healing, what Tim has learned as a counselor of 20+ years, how to re-parent yourself for the better, and more.  ------------------------------------------------ Tour Dates! https://theovon.com/tour New Merch: https://www.theovonstore.com ------------------------------------------------- Sponsored By: Celsius: Go to the Celsius Amazon store to check out all of their flavors. #CELSIUSBrandPartner #CELSIUSLiveFit  https://amzn.to/3HbAtPJ  Morgan & Morgan: If you’re ever injured, visit https://forthepeople.com/thispastweekend or dial Pound LAW (#529). Their fee is free unless they win. Liquid IV: Go to http://liquidiv.com and use code THEO to get 20% off your first order.  Shady Rays: Go to http://shadyrays.com and use code THEO to get $20 off each pair of polarized sunglasses. NetSuite: Go to http://netsuite.com/theo to get NetSuite’s one-of-a-kind flexible financing program for a few more weeks. Manscaped: Go to http://manscaped.com and use code THEO for 20% off plus free shipping. ------------------------------------------------- Music: “Shine” by Bishop Gunn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3A_coTcUek ------------------------------------------------ Submit your funny videos, TikToks, questions and topics you'd like to hear on the podcast to: [e-mail] Hit the Hotline: [phone] Video Hotline for Theo Upload here: https://www.theovon.com/fan-upload Send mail to: This Past Weekend 1906 Glen Echo Rd PO Box #159359 Nashville, TN 37215 ------------------------------------------------ Find Theo: Website: https://theovon.com Instagram: https://instagram.com/theovon Facebook: https://facebook.com/theovon Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thispastweekend Twitter: https://twitter.com/theovon YouTube: https://youtube.com/theovon Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheoVonClips Shorts Channel: https://bit.ly/3ClUj8z ------------------------------------------------ Producer: Zach https://www.instagram.com/zachdpowers Producer: Nick https://www.instagram.com/realnickdavis/ Producer: Colin https://instagram.com/colin_reiner Producer: Riley https://www.instagram.com/rileymaufilms/  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Order up for Damien. Hey, how did your doctor's appointment go, by the way? Did you ask about Rebelsis? Actually, I'm seeing my doctor later today. Did you say Rebelsis? My dad's been talking about Rebelsis. Rebelsis? Really?

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I have some tour dates to tell you about. I'll be in Vancouver, B.C. on September 14th, St. Louis, Missouri on April 19th, Halifax, Nova Scotia on August 11th. Get all your tickets at theovon.com slash T O U R. And if tickets are too expensive, don't get them. Hold out. Don't let these Reapers get at you. We'll come back around sometime. Um, love you guys and thank you for the support. Today's guest is a speaker, a counselor, and a researcher in the world of complex trauma. Uh, he has some amazing videos on YouTube.

Uh, I really love how he discusses this world and, and his presentation of it. I'm grateful to spend time with him today via Windsor, Canada. He is here with us. Today's guest is Mr. Tim Fletcher, thanks for joining me, man. My pleasure. I've seen a lot of your videos on YouTube and a lot of it really resonates with me about trauma, childhood trauma,

just a lot of things in that vein. I mean, you have so many wonderful videos out there. And I'm just thankful you're here today to talk with us about it. I know we wanna talk about trauma today and that sort of thing, but it's also like a buzzword. I feel like people use a lot. And I don't want this to be like a thing where we're just creating victims or, you know what I'm saying?

Kind of. Yep. Yep. I think lots in the last 10 years, this trauma has kind of come on the radar. Now everybody's talking about it, everybody's trauma informed and yet people really don't understand it a whole lot.

But a lot of the response has been, no, I got somebody to blame. Right. And it's like, no, we can explain but a lot of the response has been, no, I got somebody to blame. Right. And it's like, no, we can explain now a lot of your behavior, but you got to now take responsibility to change that. Yeah, that's what, yeah. And I don't want to create a lot of victims today.

Like that's another part. And I'm, this isn't a judgment against anybody. I'm just, this is even for myself. I've had a lot of problems. I'll get trapped in self-pity sometimes. So I just, but like you're saying, this is a great place for information. And, um, how do we go about like not creating

victims? Right. So to me, what trauma is, is pain happens to every child, but a child in a healthy home is able to get tools and support and they can resolve and grow through that, so it's not trauma, it's pain that gets turned into growth.

But what happens to a child that can't resolve it? Nobody's supporting them, nobody's giving them tools to handle it, it turns into trauma. They're a victim, they're a legitimate victim, a helpless victim who can't fix the problem. And so they are legitimate victims. legitimate victim, a helpless victim who can't fix the problem. Um, and so they are legitimate victims. The problem is, is that they still feel

like a victim as an adult. Yeah. Even though they're not a victim now, they now have tools and support. And that's one of the hardest transitions is to move from, I was a legitimate victim, but now I got to take responsibility cause I can't. Yeah.

And some don't want to do that because they like staying a victim because then I don't have to be responsible if people feel so sorry for me, I can blame somebody. I don't have to grow up. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah. Let's talk about trauma. Let's talk about complex trauma.

So what is it? How would we say what it is? So trauma is, is so the event happens on the outside, but I can't handle it. It's too painful. It's too scary for me. So it creates this fear and stress that I don't have the tools to handle.

Okay. And so as a result of that, since I can't fix it and resolve it, it then wounds me on the inside. And that's the trauma is what takes place on the inside. What makes why we call it complex trauma. So it's really mathematical terms. So there's simple math and there's complex math.

So simple is one number, complex is more than one. So simple trauma is a one event trauma, a car accident, a rape, whatever, complex is ongoing danger. So a child's in a situation where they're in ongoing danger. So there's, their stress system is constantly activated, like do I fight flight? What do I do here?

I got to get out of here. I can't handle this. I can't handle this. So that when a child lives in that environment all the time where they're constantly activated to fight flight. But if they're too little to fight or flight, then they eventually go out, I'm shutting her down.

Freeze. I can't handle this. So they go into this dissociative, let's go into an internal world to protect ourself and create a fantasy world because it's safe there. And so complex trauma is, comes out of basically abuse or neglect.

So the two extreme ends of the spectrum. So the abuse we can easily imagine that's physical abuse, emotional abuse, that's harsh environment, violence, et cetera. But a lot of complex trauma comes out of neglect. And that's the other end of the spectrum where all the physical needs of the child were met, but their emotional needs were not. So the abuse trauma, something happens to you.

Neglect trauma, something didn't happen to you. That should have happened. Yeah. And it's hard to find out those, the neglect trauma, sometimes it's hard. Neglect trauma, something didn't happen to you. That should have happened. Yeah. And it's hard to find out those, the neglect trauma, sometimes it's hard to locate some of it because it's like almost feeling around for ghosts

is what it feels like. Exactly. Yeah. And so that's where we spend a lot of time. So what we've done with it is that we've broken down kind of the emotional needs that a child has. So we have a need to be, a child needs to be authentic and to connect with safe people and really be able to be vulnerable and open up

and to be totally accepted for who they are. Have somebody who totally gets them and hears them and sees them and values them and nurtures them. Those are all emotional needs. But if a child grows up in a home where I'm too busy for you or smarten up, get over it, toughen up. Nobody's getting them. Nobody's hearing them or why can't you be like your brother, et cetera. All of that is emotional trauma. That's hurting the child emotionally. So the child's not feeling safe to be them.

So the child then has to adapt in order to try to protect itself. So I got to be tougher. So the child then has to adapt in order to try to protect itself. So I got to be tougher. I can't be so sensitive. I got to wear this mask of being outgoing, et cetera. Um, but that's also how I'm going to try to

get my needs met. So maybe if I'm different, then dad'll give me more attention. Then mom won't be so angry at me all the time. So they're adapting, adapting, trying to get their needs met, trying to keep safe. And they don't even know who they are a lot of times.

And that's what happens. They don't even really develop. They don't have a clue who they are after a while, because they're so busy trying to be something they're not to get acceptance and love. Because they know if they're authentic, so in a healthy situation of you're authentic, you connect in your love in complex trauma.

If you're authentic, you get rejected. And so then you'll, yeah. Then you pull that authenticity back in, especially if you're really young, you don't even know you're still net learning so much about yourself or evolving. Who even knows what happens to when you redirect that river.

Exactly. That's supposed to be normal. It just becomes a, it's just damn floods, everything. Exactly. It can get some real sewage going on. So what happens when the child is neglected is the child basically thinks

everything, it must be their fault. So the reason dad's too busy must be because I'm not good enough. Reason mom's angry is I'm not good enough. So they, they begin to develop this core self identity that something's wrong with me. I'm not good enough. So I have to change and be somebody else in

order to get acceptance and love. Why does a child develop? Why does a child, because the world revolves around them when they're a child, they only know themselves and so they have no one else to blame if something is wrong in the world. Right. So, so we refer to it, so the child brain is

basically what's developed as the limbic brain, which is the emotional center. So the cortex hasn't developed yet. And so it's called egocentric thinking. So everything they see through their eyes, it affects them, they caused it. Everything is related to them somehow. So if dad's too busy or mom and dad get a

divorce, I must've done something wrong. It must be my fault. Um, if I get sexually abused, I must have brought it on. So everything is an egocentric way of thinking. I see. Cause they're really the only player on the court kind of.

Exactly. Exactly. And so then what happens though with that is they make adjustments, hoping to get love and acceptance and get their needs met and stay safe. But something way back here now goes your phony. So they get the imposter syndrome, which says you're getting love and acceptance, but if they

knew the real you, they wouldn't be giving you that love and acceptance because you're getting love and acceptance, but if they knew the real you, they wouldn't be giving you that love and acceptance because you're an imposter. So the solution hasn't fixed the problem. It's still unresolved. So that's where complex trauma then, it's still not fixed. So I'm still in fight or flight.

Um, so I got to come up with a new persona. I got to come up with a new. Mechanism. Exactly, to try and get my needs met, but I never can find a solution that totally satisfies. So it's more than one trauma that happens to a child, right? And they don't have somebody there to help them process it. Can children have different levels of trauma or no trauma if they have somebody there to help them process it? Right. So there's degrees of traumas, some very severe to very mild. And so the latest

studies and Gaber Matei in his book, The Myth of Normal, has published them to say about 75% of Americans have this subtle complex trauma. And basically it's a child that, so if a child is always being made teased by parents or ignored by parents, dad's always busy. Dad's in this chair next to him, but he's always watching TV. So he's physically there, but he's not there emotionally.

The child just doesn't feel loved and accepted. So they, they don't feel safe. watching TV, so he's physically there, but he's not there emotionally. The child just doesn't feel loved and accepted. So they, they don't feel safe. They don't feel they can totally relax. They have to somehow earn that connection, earn that love. And so a child has this inner trauma taking place that's happening. That's so subtle, but it's powerful.

And it's really major upheaval internally. That's taking place inside the child. What's forming how they're going to behave. Oh, exactly. So now they're going to start these behaviors to try to get attention, to try to get connection. But is some of that natural too? Yeah.

Cause a child and that's, it's built off very natural things. So the child has a natural personality, so they can be like naturally funny, but then they can take that to just, I gotta be funny all the time. I see. They can be naturally very child, every child wants to please and love, but now I'm going to be

a hero. I'm going to get straight A's. I'm going to do all the chores. I'm going to be a workaholic because that's how I'll get validation and acceptance. Got it. So you were just talking about, um, isn't

some of that natural for a child. So that, so that being wanting to help with the chores, that's a wonderful instinct that a child has, but now they're going to turn that into a maladaptation. So now I'm going to be a people pleaser. So I got to, or I'm going to be a perfectionist. Everything's got to be perfect. Are going to please never say no to anybody just,

but then I'm going to burn myself out. I'm never, and I'm going to kill myself. So that adaptation. You don't mean kill, you just mean burn yourself out. Yeah. Okay. That adaptation, pleasing people and all of that has become a mal-adaptation. It's now hurting me.

I see. So a lot of children with complex trauma have mal-adaptations. They all do. They all do. Okay. And what are some symptoms of complex trauma that you can see in people? So very common ones is that they don't know who they are because they've had to wear masks all

their life and they become people pleasers. Most have anger issues. Most have authority issues because all the authorities of their life have not been healthy. Um, most have some control manipulation issues that are part of that. Um, a lot have lying issues. They lie when it would just as be as just as easy

to tell the truth, but lying is what they had to do to kind of stay safe. Um, cause truth got them in trouble. Um, there's a fear of failure, a fear of change, a fear even of success because it's like, oh, everything's going too good. The other shoe is going to drop, something bad is going to happen.

So now I better sabotage it. Wow. So there's lots, it's a fear driven thing, the fear of rejection. There's a desire for intimacy, but a fear of intimacy, cause then you're going to get to know me, then you're going to reject me. Deep fear of abandonment that anybody that gets

to know me leaves me. Um, and so that you can see all of that becomes problematic and relationship stuff and then trust issues. Oh God, Tim, you're, uh, man, a lot, I can, I can, yeah, I can relate to a lot of those things, you know? I can relate, and I have to be careful when I think about, because at certain points in my life,

I've had a lot, I've had those things, and I'm gonna have to be careful that I don't immediately attach it to being a victim. Even when I'm thinking about it right now, I don't want to be like, okay, some of those things I've had in my life, man, what a piece of shit I am. Right.

Because that's what will happen to us for me. Um. And if I can interrupt. Yeah, no, please. So what I would say is the core, the worst result that comes out of complex trauma is how it changes your self identity. So a child that's loved and accepted is a positive self identity.

I have value. I have something to offer to the world. A child with complex trauma that's felt neglected. It's my fault. I must not be good enough. They have a negative self identity. Um, and so because of that, I am a piece of shit. Whoever would want to get to know me. Um, and so I need to hide who I really am.

So that core identity just affects every decision they make, every relationship response that they have, and that's probably the most hidden part of complex trauma, the hardest thing for people to see because who understands that? they have, and that's probably the most hidden part of complex trauma. The hardest thing for people to see, because who understands shame? What's shame?

What's that? But once you understand it, it's like, whoa, that changes everything. Yeah. And that's where the healing really has to take place. Man, it's so funny you say some of this. Man, it's so funny you say some of this. I like, there'll be times where, yeah, like if a lot of times I'll take it to relationships. If a girl rejected me or wouldn't look at me, man, it would attach itself to a place in me,

almost like a thought got into a ferris wheel. And I didn't even know the ferris wheel was going, but this thought got into the ferris wheel, like a person getting into a little ferris wheel compartment. And the ferris wheel was just like, you are just, you are horrible. You are. And it was just like feeding this old thing, but it would, it was

crazy how quick it would go from maybe if I'd asked a girl to a dance or even if I just had some interest in my head, but she never looked at me or something. And I would immediately be like, God, man, what a fucking, you must just have, you must just be gross. So is that crazy to say that to you? Not at all. Cause shame, one of the most powerful aspects of shame is that it creates this inner critic

in our brain that's caught no matter what we do, it criticizes it. It finds fault with it. And if we fail, especially it just beats us up. And like we're in the dog house for weeks. It's just vlogging us. Um, and it's just loud and it is brutal there. Yeah.

Um, it would be everything. You're poor, your body's gross. You're ugly, you're stupid, you're ugly, you're stupid, nobody, everybody want you. You're never amounted to anything. You're a failure. I mean, it was like a machine gun. Yes.

Um, and the craziest part was now I have a little bit more rev, I'm able to see it more, but man, for 30 years of my life, I couldn't even see it. Yes. And that's, so what happens, complex trauma for most people begins from birth. Okay. And so it's pre-memory preverbal time. And so a lot of the stuff that's happening in their brain is all happening subconsciously.

They're, they're not thinking about it. They're, they're, they're an infant. Yeah. It's, it's, it's all subconscious. So your whole subconscious brain. Is forming. Is forming with all this negative stuff. Um, and that's a really, really important thing to think about. And I think that's a really important thing to So your whole subconscious brain. Is forming. Is forming with all this negative stuff.

Um, and that's a real tragedy of complex traumas. It's shaping the brain in the infant ears with negative messages, lies, negative perceptions that you're not even aware of there. You just think they're normal. And those can be like a parent not looking at its child. Exactly.

And not interacting. Exactly. Um, there's probably countless things that could, uh, create trauma at that age, right? Exactly. So what we know as a child needs to feel safe. They need lots of hugs and touches. They need eye contact.

That's how they learn to regulate. That's how they learn to regulate. That's how they learn to feel and experience emotions by picking up on the parents' emotions. That's how their emotions get calmed by looking into somebody who's calm. Um, but if they don't have that, then it's like, it's me against the big bad world and I'm only one week old, like it's, it's too overwhelming.

It's too scary. Yeah. You got to be a gangster suddenly and you're only seven days old. Exactly. Then you can't even carry a gun. Exactly. Yeah.

And so that's a lot of pressure. Ah, imagine the pressure that a kid starts to feel, a child starts to feel. And that's why I say that's your stress system is activated. And that's what I say that's your stress system is activated and that's what we mean. That's complex trauma. So that makes sense as to why, like if certain things will happen in adulthood, it'll immediately

cause stresses in me, even if it's just normal. Like I'd have a lot of instances where, like even in intimacy situations with women, like somebody would touch me and it would make me, I like would feel, uh, I'd feel overwhelmed. Yes. You know, I would feel, yeah, it was just like crazy. It was just, I don't know, it was, and then I felt bad about myself. Yes. Because again, the second something was a little bit off. it would get into that back onto that Ferris wheel of man. You don't, must be something really wrong with you. Life can be

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Um, you really need to understand our central nervous system. And so it's really made up of two parts. So there's the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic. So the sympathetic is your work energy. Um, it gives you the energy to fight or flight, to work hard, get up in the morning, go, go, go.

But then you need a parasympathetic, a balancing part, that's your rest, healing, restoration piece. So a child has to have that in balance to be healthy, to grow. But what happens in complex trauma when you're in danger all the time is you're in your sympathetic all the time.

Because you got to be on guard, you got to be going, you got to get validation, you got to prove yourself, you got to work, you got to earn. So you got to go, go, go. You're driven. And, and so the bot, the brain helps you with that. It releases cortisol when fear is in your

stress system activated and that releases adrenaline. So you can go on adrenaline, that gives you lots of energy and you feel, Hey, I can pull this off. And if you're young, you've got the resources to do that. But the problem is you're not engaging your

parasympathetic and usually around 30 or so, it catches up with you. Wow. And all of a sudden your body says, I'm not doing this anymore. Right. You're burning me out here and I'm going to start shutting down.

And one of the first things it does to help engage the parasympathetic is to bring on depression because depression brings in the parasympathetic and it forces you to slow down. It forces you to shut down. Wow. And then for some, they, they keep pushing, brings in the parasympathetic and it forces you to slow down, it forces you to shut down. Wow. And then for some, they, they keep pushing,

they keep pushing and some go to drugs because drugs will give you the energy to keep going. And they keep, then your body actually just burns itself out and shuts itself down. Um, then you have a total, not just an emotional burnout, you have a physical burnout. Wow. So your body can create depression. Right.

In order to give the parasympathetic, because then you're at least going to slow down. You're going to. Exactly. Even if there's these other side effects of how you feel about it. Exactly. So what happens to a little child is how do

they learn the parasympathetic? They, we call it a co-regulator. So mom or dad is regulated emotionally, is calm. They're in their parasympathetic, they, we call it co-regulator. So mom or dad is regulated emotionally as calm. They're in their parasympathetic. So they look them in the eyes and they regulate their own nervous system to mom and dad. But if mom and dad are absent or mom and dad are angry all the time, your regulator's not there

or they're regulated. So they're triggering you and keeping you full of fear and anxiety. Wow. So it's, it's messing you up. Yeah. Or if you have parents that just are work, work, work, if you relax, you're lazy.

If you're relaxed, you're selfish. They're, they're forcing you by this work ethic to be out of balance. And actually it's creating very subtle complex trauma because you're just a workaholic and you feed off it and you're driven. Um, but what happens is that's normal. Right.

So then you're creating a normal that is extremely abnormal. Right. So then you're creating a normal that is extremely abnormal. Exactly. Man, I, um, yeah, just to have some pert, like, uh, yeah, my mother didn't look at me, right? When I was a child, I don't remember. Well, I don't like, uh, and I don't say that.

I don't need sympathy or anything. I'm just saying that as an adult, right? Recognizing that this child wasn't looked at in the eyes. My mother, I love my mother. I'm thankful for her. I'm glad I exist. But yeah, if there were an emotional thing, she couldn't connect. She almost had an emotional autism. If they were physical,

if I got hurt, she could help. The second I got hurt. But if I'm sitting across from her feeling a certain way, it doesn't even, it's like, um, there's, it does, she, she will come to me. She can't come to me. She would hug. She couldn't hug me for more than like half a second. Okay. Uh, and I'm not saying that as like a whiny baby. I'm just, I'm trying to relate to, uh, some of the stuff you're talking about. So one of the things that happened was I noticed as I got older, I didn't know how long and my father was a senior citizen and he was really absent. I didn't know how long to look into somebody's eyes. I remember.

So what had this weird stuff sometimes where I would like check in with somebody's eyes, but then look away while I was explaining myself, man. It makes me feel bad for myself. Not, it doesn't make me feel bad as an adult, but it makes me feel bad. Uh, that that kid had to do that. So can I speak scientifically to that again? You're okay?

Yeah. Okay. Um, so the first response to danger is the brain releases cortisol, which is adrenaline, and that gives you the energy to fight or flight. Okay. Um, so you get, you can fight harder, you can run faster because you got adrenaline happening. But if you're too little to fight or flight, then

that's, cortisol is not doing you any good. And, and if your parents are pregnant, you're going to have to fight or flight, then that's, cortisol's not doing you any good. And, and if your parents are punishing you for being angry, et cetera, the brain then switches and produces opioids, natural opioids, and it says we're going to shut down. And so what happens with that is that you dissociate, you move inward and all the blood comes from the muscles around the you move inward and all the blood

comes from the muscles around the heart because it's basically saying we're going to get ready to get hurt. We're going to get ready to get cut so we don't bleed as much. So we're going to put all the blood around here so that if we get hurt out here, cut out here, nothing is, we're not going to bleed as much.

Really? Your body does that. Yeah. No way. Yeah. No way. Yeah. So your body's now gone to that fight or flight don't work, so now we're going to freeze.

Um, and so then what some kids learn in freeze is, but I still need my needs met. So now I learned to fawn. So I will learn to say whatever you want me to say, be whatever you want me to be, just don't hurt me, just put up with me. Wow. So that's your four F's that develop, but what

we've, what happens. What are they against so we know them? Fight, flight, freeze and fawn. Wow. But what has happened is, so fight or flight, you're basically, your emotions are out there. Freeze, your emotions go in, you shut them down. And so most people with complex trauma don't

do well with emotions. They shut down emotions. They don't even know they have emotions. And so what we say is that most complex trauma families, they have three emotions, mad, sad, and glad. So dad can be mad, mom can be sad, but the kids got to be glad.

Um. Man. Yeah. I remember like, uh, I would ask people, how do I feel about this? Which is crazy, man. I know it's not some of this, I know sounds maybe crazy to some people, but yeah, I remember I feel about this? Which is crazy, man. I know it's not some of this, I know, sound maybe

crazy to some people, but yeah, I remember I just didn't even have any, I didn't know how like I felt about anything. You know, I just knew, uh, how you felt and how I needed to seem. And so what happens to a child who's fawning is I'm more attuned to how you're feeling than to how I'm feeling.

Oh yeah. I was falling. I was a damn Bambi, babe. You know what I'm saying? I to how you're feeling than to how I'm feeling. Oh yeah. I was falling. I was a damn Bambi, babe. You know what I'm saying? I was like a Bambi in Memphis. So I know your emotions better than my own. I know what you think and believe more than what I think.

Right. Um, because that's how I need to survive is I need to be more attuned to you than I am to me. Yeah. Uh, for me, I noticed like, well, for a long time, I didn't know what was going on. And for me, I got into recovery programs in the 12 step and that helped me for the first time have a little bit of a clue.

I heard people share stuff that things I could never put into words, you know? I mean, that was one of the blessings about being in Sinai's recovery in 12 step rooms was you had like 20 people thinking at once. Yeah. And so sometimes someone would say what you have to, wanted to and couldn't.

And so that gave me a first start to look at myself. I was so like, at myself. I was so stuck to me, I couldn't see me at all. Well, and so some ways that things that were having a tough time in my life, huge problems trusting people. Didn't trust huge problems with that. One thing I noticed really recently, still unrealistic expectations of myself and other people. And I've always had them. You know, it's like, and I realized that it's, I think some of it is like, I want to make it so like, if I have unrealistic expectations of myself, then I'm never going to be able to achieve them.

The bar is too high. Right. And then I'll always be what I thought I always was anyway, which was not enough. So that's where shame creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. So that's like, and now I'm able to see that a little, but before I was just stuck on that Ferris wheel, you know? And it still happens. That's a tough one recently for me. Oh, self-pity, that was a huge one. That was my biggest drug in life that I never realized was self-pity. And I reframed it for myself. I was

like, oh, if I just keep trying, I'll get everything. I have to work harder. I have to be better. I can't go do something fun with my friends. I need to stay and write a book. Or it's just like unreal, these unrealistic expectations. But I was always keeping myself in a place of self-pity without realizing it, because that was a side effect of having unrealistic expectations and man, that self pity was, but it looked like on the outside, I was trying to better myself. So it was, I was always, does it make any sense? So can I ask you with that?

Cause what you're describing is very common in the world I work in. So a lot would say unrealistic expectations. So you're always setting the bar in the world I work in. So a lot would say unrealistic expectations. So you're always setting the bar too high, hard high for yourself, which is always leading to failure, which is self pity as the aftermath.

Um, but what you're thinking is, but I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying. But what's happening often with the self pity, and so here's my question is there's this growing sense of helplessness and hopelessness. Did you go through that or was there always, I can somehow rise above if I just dig a little deeper. That was me.

Okay. And that's what I was talking about with the sympathetic nervous system. I'm getting tired. I'm starting to burn out, but if I dig a little deeper, I can push, I can push, I can keep going until you eventually do burn out. Yeah, that's where societal, the society

affected me because there was always that you have to grind harder. Yes. The 70 minute work week or something like, you know, the four minute relationship. There's all these books that are like, what is unrealistic, man. You know, the 52nd life.

And you're like, why would I want to do that? Exactly. Um, and so that's where society even pushed me even further. And about four years ago, I had like a breakdown. It was like, um, I was burnout. I couldn't even listen to somebody talk because there was no, yeah. You can't concentrate.

And it made me, uh, it physically exhausted me to listen to somebody in a conversation. Um, and I kept working. Yes. There's an episode of this podcast where I felt it was just, man. And this is the fact that I, then I start to feel bad that I treated myself that way, you know? Um, anyway. Can I share a little bit from me? So please, man. I got into this work over 20 years ago, but that

was after seven years of burnout. Wow. So I had worked for, um, till I was 32 and all of a sudden I was just tired all the time. I couldn't, till I was 32 and all of a sudden I was just tired all the time. I couldn't sleep. I was just, and my eyes were getting like, my wife would go, something's wrong with you.

Your eyes are really looking weird. Yeah. You're looking big. I mean, you're about to eat a fly. They get dark and, uh, and then went to doctor after doctor and eventually put me on disability. But I went through seven years of depression and hell and anxiety.

And, uh, and when I came to the end of what the government would give me for disability, I had to go back to work. So I just worked on farms. I milk cows, I took care of horses. Oh yeah. And that was very healing for me. That was very therapeutic.

But then a lady I knew, she came to me and said, Tim, we really need help with this treatment center and I think you'd be the perfect counselor. And that cows out of milk. And I said, I said, I think you got the wrong guy. I can't go back to that world. And she's, she came back about three months later

and she said, Tim, I think you're the guy. Please give it some thought. And I said, okay, I'll go for the interview. Um, but when I went for the interview and I said, okay, I'll give it a try for three months, but I told myself if you don't make some major changes in how you go about working, you're not going to make it.

So you got to radically change your boundaries in life and people pleasing and all of that. But the first week as I was working with these people with trauma and addiction, I was like, this is what I was made for. Wow. These are my people and I fell in love with it. But it came after all of, all of my work came

after seven years of hell burnout that I brought on myself because of my trauma. But you didn't know it though, right? No, I thought I was doing the right thing by pushing myself. I was being a responsible father and husband. And so I had a four year old, a three year old, and a one year old. Oh, wow. So you guys were really making love on the solstice.

And all of a sudden their dad just was sick and in bed all the time. And they basically all went through abandonment trauma because their dad disappeared from their life for seven years. And were you using drugs? Did you use pills and stuff? You didn't, you were just depressed. Yeah. Wow.

Well, one of the toughest things I found when I had, when I was struggling was, uh, when I was physically struggling, right? Like I had gotten so depleted. Yeah. Um, I was just, I was just, I was just, I was, when I was struggling was, uh, when I was physically struggling, right? Like I had gotten so depleted, um, that all the doctors I would go to, they couldn't really diagnose it. You know, they would take my blood.

You're talking chronic fatigue syndrome. Yeah. And you're looking up all these crazy things and then you're wearing, you know, like at one point I was just like, I had on like one of those, I'd bought like a posture organizer from the, uh the thing and I just had like a couple, like some shake weights and some, like some weighted anklets on and people are like, what are you doing?

And I'm like, they say this works, you know. Like. Try the bracelet. Oh, everything. Oh, my womb bracelet just kept calling an ambulance. People bring me little mason jars of their home concoctions that were gonna cure me. Oh.

And yeah, and one of the toughest places for me too was relationships, and it still is. It still is a really tough space for me. That also goes to unrealistic expectations. You know, I don't, if things get tough, I'll leave. Yeah. You know, um, you know, I, I, you know, I heard you talk about fake intimacy once.

Do you know what I'm talking about? Yep. What were you talking about about it? I resonated with that. So every child longs for connection. Yeah. Just built. But if you can't get it, you try to connect with dad, but he's always too busy.

Mom's always depressed or angry. You can't connect. So you assume it's my fault. I must be something wrong with me, but I'm still driven for connection, but I don't want deep, genuine connection now. Cause that's always led to rejection. So let's try bar room intimacy.

Let's try fake intimacy. Let's just have fun all the time and sports. Pervert. Yes. Yeah. Pornography, that sort of thing. Yeah. Cause it gives the feelings of connection without the true intimacy. Yes. Set, yeah. Pornography, that sort of thing. Yeah. Cause it gives the feelings of connection

without the true intimacy. Yeah. But it doesn't satisfy. No. But it, and it sets up addiction. Um, and that's where most people end up sadly straying into that fake intimacy world. Yeah.

Like would you, do you think it's safe to say that complex trauma makes, having a healthy relationship, like it's got to have a huge effect. Yeah. Yes, very much. Impossible even? No. Makes it almost impossible for a healthy relationship. So everybody that I deal with, um, as long as they're single, they don't think they need to work on their trauma. Cause yeah, it's just me. I'm, I'm surviving.

As soon as they get in a relationship, then they start damaging the other person. Then they have kids, they're damaging their kids. And all of a sudden they go, I got it. Start working on my crap. Um, but then they go, okay, I'll just change this all of a sudden they go, I gotta start working on my crap. Um, but then they go, okay, I'll just change this. I'll change this, but it's not working.

Why is it not fixing the relationship? And it's cause you're trying to fix the symptoms. You're not dealing with the root issues, that deep shame, that deep lack of trust, that deep fear of intimacy and fear of abandonment. And as long as those are still there, they're going to keep getting in the way of true healthy relationships.

Um, and so a lot of people, as long as the relationship is going along smoothly, it looks pretty good. But as soon as there's the slightest thing that triggers their fear of abandonment or triggers their shame, big explosion, they go back to old behaviors, all of a sudden they're in fight, flight or freeze mode.

They're lashing out, they're running away. And that's when all the damage happens. Um, and after a while, there's so much baggage from all the damage that you just can't repair it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, personally, I would, yeah, I've had problems, I mean, certainly problems with not cheating in relationships. I've always, I think I've cheated in every relationship I've ever been in, sadly. and sadly, you know, let me think. Oh, like would have problems with sex and stuff,

but if the person was gonna leave me, then I could have, it was like my body would then entertain it, you know? But otherwise, like, yeah, or if it was with a stranger, it was easier a stranger, it was easier, you know? Not a complete stranger, like somebody at a mall or something, but like, you know, with somebody, you know, a bar sex or somebody like that,

or just somebody you met at a service area or whatever. But yeah, that kind of stuff. Oh, staying with somebody. Man, this is, this is hard. This staying with somebody. Because I didn't want them to have somebody else who would really care about them. Yes. Or that could care about them better than me.

Yeah. Even though I knew I was doing a about them. Yes. Or that could care about them better than me. Yeah. Even though I knew I was doing a bad job. Yeah. Man, it makes me feel, I'm not proud of that and I didn't know, but some, a lot of it man, I didn't know until later, you know? I just couldn't see it. But yeah, stuff like that.

Oh, thinking that my partner, a woman, if my girlfriend or whatever, if they did something wrong, then it was me doing it wrong. Yes. Like, um, Oh gosh, if they, if they're a little off or something, or they, uh, do things away that people don't like, that's a reflection of me totally. Yes. You know, those are some symptoms that I had, you know.

So can I talk scientifically again? A hundred percent. You can talk in any, ask anyone about it. So to me, it's so interesting, especially living in the West is so much of our dating and attraction in relationships is really what we've come to understand is the limbic or the emotion part of the brain and the chemical oxytocin, which is

what makes me feel in love. And so that's released through when I see somebody pretty, when I touch them, when I kiss them, when I have sex, all of that releases those feel good chemicals and I feel in love. I feel it's going to last forever. I feel intimacy, though it's not true intimacy, it's the feeling of intimacy.

Um, so that's a great starting place for a relationship. The problem is you can't sustain that just through sex, just because you still got life. You got to communicate, you got to learn to accept and love and respect each other. But if you've never been taught how to do that, you don't.

So you just keep trying to have sex, keep trying to have fun, but the feelings are dying. It's not releasing the same oxytocin. And so the relationship is designed to start there, but it's designed then to move to the cortex, which is the thinking part of the brain, which then releases all of the serotonin that comes through safety, through connection,

through acceptance. Wow. And that's through building a life, working through issues, resolving problems, really respecting, trusting each other. That takes a lot of work. That takes time. And most people from complex trauma are scared to death to go there.

So the sex is just, or that intimate connection up top is just like a fuse kind of. Exactly. And then the other part is like a fire. Exactly. Yeah, man. I just, yeah. And, but most try with complex trauma, just

think I can live up here on the fuse. Yeah, I'm a fuse monkey. I'm up here. Yeah. And that's going to be great. It just never satisfied. Yeah. Never. And then it's, yeah, I just. And then the second piece to me is what comes out of complex trauma.

Are you familiar with the term gaslighting? Yeah, but what does it mean? I always hear people say it, but I'm just too bored or just too lazy to look it up. I think. So if dad is angry and then he's like, Yeah, but what does it mean? I always hear people say it, but I'm just too bored, just too lazy to look it up, I think. So if dad is angry, instead of him being honest and saying, I'm sorry, I'm having a bad day.

You didn't do anything wrong. It's all on me. He goes, you're a bad kid. It's all your fault. That's gaslighting. He's twisting it and making you believe a lie. And so what happens in complex trauma is constant fault, that's gaslighting. He's twisting it and making you believe a lie. And so what happens in complex trauma is constant gaslighting of a child so that

whenever any parent or authority is having a bad emotion, the child is made to feel it's their responsibility to fix that emotion. No, it's not. They can't fix their dad's anger. Only dad can fix his own anger, but they're emotion. No, it's not. They can't fix their dad's anger. Only dad can fix his own anger, but they're made to feel if they just did more chores, if they weren't making noise, if they were more

agreeable, more obedient, then dad would never get angry. But that always gets angry, but you keep believing the gaslighting lie. Yeah. So now when you go into relationships, soon as your spouse is a little bit sad, what did I do wrong?

Oh, maybe I should do something here. Maybe I should do this. You still take responsibility for everybody else's emotions. And that sets up relationships to be codependent. Yeah. I think I, there was a point I was like, well, I have to be perfect.

Yes. You know, I was like, if I'm perfect, right? If I'm absolutely perfect somehow, then there's no way I won't get what I need as a child because even in the laws of the universe, that wouldn't make any, you know, it would feel like that wouldn't make any sense. So can I ask you a question? So what happens often you a question? So what happens often with a child is they go to that perfectionism where I set the bar too high for myself that I can be perfect.

I will have no limitations. I'll do everything perfectly the first time, but it also can create a fantasy world where I'm going to be a Superman. I'm going to do everything wonderfully. I'm going to do everything wonderfully. I'm going to save everybody. So this, so did you have that fantasy thinking begin to develop in you?

Um, not that much. I think when our, when this podcast started getting busier and have a lot of young guys who are the same, who had a lot of the same thoughts in Finland that I did about stuff would reach out as if I knew more than them really. When I really didn't, I was just kind of, just have been kind of a late bloomer, you know, and just learning in front of people, I guess, because I've talked about more stuff like that over the years. And then that for a little bit gave me a fear of like, well, do I have some greater

responsibility? Like is God thinking like, I need you to help. Like there was moments of not grandeur, but questions of like, we, I could easily see that thing, like start to get in, you know, um, of like, oh, then I must know everything, you know, uh, it didn't sprout in me, but I could, there were times where, shit, even when that started to happen, I was like, I would be a failure at that. So there was, thankfully at that point, there was some of that Ferris wheel

that brought me right back down to the shit carnival, you know? But there was some of that kind of, none of it is a child. Like if I'm perfect, I just set out on my own. I remember thinking, I'm never gonna let anything define me in this whole world except for me. Right. You never, and I mean, even when I say it now, I can feel like, I mean, I can fucking feel it in my,

like no one is ever gonna define me again. I can feel like, I mean, I can fucking feel it in my, like no one is ever gonna define me again. You are not gonna have a say in how I feel. And it comes, dude, it comes from a place that's so deep in me, I can't even, I can barely, sometimes I can, it's like the weather changes just enough where I can see into the window of it a little bit. But the cloud, whatever it is, the client adjusts quick again.

Can I speak to that just for a minute? Cause part of my concern has been a very popular term these days is ODD or oppositional defiance disorder. So kids are getting diagnosed with ODD all the time and it's really been pathologized. Like it's bad thing. You've been, you're a bad kid because you've got

ODD and what you're describing in yourself to me is ODD. I'm never going to let anybody define me again. That's oppositional defiance, but really it starts out in complex trauma and it's a healthy thing and it's a child who's, nobody's accepting me. Everybody's trying to make me something I'm not. Everybody's trying to control me.

Everybody's, I got this rigid rules, all of this harsh discipline, et cetera. That's not right. That's wrong. That's hurting me. I need to be able to have the right to be able to all of this harsh discipline, et cetera. That's not right. That's wrong. That's hurting me. I need to be able to have some freedom.

I need to be able to be myself. And so we rebel against what's unhealthy, but people don't see that we're doing something healthy. They just say, you're rebelling and they pathologize it. Oh, I see. Right. If you're a rebel, when you're youngbelling and they pathologize it. Oh, I see.

Right. If you're a rebel, when you're young, they're like, oh, look at this rebel. Exactly. But for you, you're trying to figure it out for yourself. You're trying to fix what's wrong. Right. And make it right.

You're not trying to be a rebel. You're trying to develop something loving and healthy, but what happens for most kids is then they gain it, that just gets into their soul and now even if somebody wants what's best for me, I'm not going to let anybody define me, so now I'm going to rebel against good and bad. And that then becomes a maladaptation. Right.

Yeah. A lot of those old safety mechanism, a lot of those old survival techniques become tips over the other side of the seesaw. Exactly. Yeah. Quick math. The less your business spends on operations, on multiple systems, on delivering your product or service, the more margin you have and the more money you get to keep. So to reduce costs and headaches, smart businesses are graduating to NetSuite by Oracle.

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Yeah, and a lot of this, I don't want to get into that self-pity place again. A lot of it is just looking. I'm trying to look at some of this stuff with you because it's interesting and it's amazing how it still comes to the surface because a lot of it I haven't resolved. Yes. I think I've taken care of some of the stuff and I have a much better understanding of a lot of it now. And I'm able to see, I'm able to see what's going on a lot of times, but some of it is still unresolved for me. So let's go into the just kind of the very basics of healing. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I think that's good. Yeah. I don't want to be like we've had some of the experience we've had some of that. So yeah, I want to get into a part of, yeah, how does one locate their complex trauma so that can begin to heal it if it's possible. Yeah. And that's the huge challenge is that so much of it exists in the subconscious mind.

So we're not even aware of all of these mechanisms and kind of subconscious brain templates and programs that have been operating our life. It's almost like we're in autopilot. Um, and because it's been normal for us all our life, we don't see it as being abnormal or unhealthy.

And so that's where, uh, the, um, and because it's been normal for us all our life, we don't see it as being abnormal or unhealthy. And so that's where, uh, taking a program or watching videos where you begin to grow in self awareness, to understand trauma, to understand the, the different characteristics of trauma. So we talk about 60 different characteristics, the patterns in your emotions, the patterns in your characteristics, the patterns in your emotions, the patterns

in your thinking, the patterns in your behavior and your relationships. And once you begin to grow in self awareness, then you go, oh, wow. Okay. Now I'm starting to see it. But then that goes, okay, now I know what unhealthy is now I can define it.

What's what's healthy. I don't know what healthy, and that's where we talk about healing from complex trauma requires reparenting, you need surrogate family that can begin to model healthy for you, teach you healthy and begin to help you learn healthy. But that requires the third piece and that is connection.

And that's the thing I fear the most. If people get to really know me, they're going to reject me. But what I've been craving on my life is true connection with safe people. And so trauma requires safe people to heal. It's got an academic element of self-awareness, but it's got a, a connection, reparenting element as well. Yeah.

I, I, it's so a connection, reparenting element as well. Yeah. I, I, it's so hard to notice. Um, yeah, I would just think I was bad at relationships for a long time. I would just think that, um, you know, and I was, I mean, I was just think that I was a philanderin man, you know, kind of deal gypsy, whatever it is. I don't even know what they call it. Gypsy boy or whatever.

And then, um, but yeah, I was like, and I still don't know how I'm going to do it. Like if I think about like being in a marriage, a longterm, I don't know how I'll could do it. Right. I mean, I know for a while I resorted to pornography for a while, but that lost it. I just learned through other 12-step just how negative it is for you. So that's not a solution. I mean, I still date and everything, but I don't know if I...

When I think about that, it's like, Oh, that feels harrowing. But it used to be like, if I saw a family that was functioning, I was like, what the fuck is this? This is fucking the dumbest thing I've ever seen. That's where I started at. And that's exactly, that's a real thing. And to even get to the point now where I can even think about being in a marriage or something for me, that's, it's been a while, you know, it's been, it's been, it's been a ride, you know?

And that to me is a common defense mechanism of people with lots of trauma and shame is I need to disparage anything that's healthy. Yeah. What the fuck are you doing? Who are you? Who do you think you are? And it's like, I got to look down on everybody to feel better about myself. anything that's healthy. Yeah. What the fuck are you doing? Who are you? Who do you think you are?

And it's like, I got to look down on everybody to feel better about myself, even if I know I should be aspiring to what they've got. Man. And it hurts people so much when they're behaving that way too, that's the toughest part is man. Oh, you hurt yourself. Yeah. So to me, what I say with complex trauma is

others wounded me when I was a child. I develop mal adaptations. The longer I hang onto them, the more I just wound myself. I don't need anybody to wound me anymore because I just do a great job myself. Yeah. And I keep the Ferris wheel going.

You have a program, um, react it's right. Is that it react? So it stands for recovery education for addiction and complex trauma. Okay. So what we found was that 97% of addicts have complex trauma. I see. So this, a lot of this is addiction focus.

Originally. And so I started in the addiction world and we were the only treatment center in Canada that saw addiction as a symptom of deeper problems and the lady that trained me said, Tim, your job is to find those problems. And complex trauma wasn't even on the radar then. It was called adult children of alcoholics. Oh yeah, ACA or whatever. Adult children of dysfunction. Then it became known as developmental

trauma disorder. Then, excuse me, then complex trauma came in on the radar. But basically what it's saying is that we always see addiction as a problem, but to an addict, it was the solution to their problems. Um, and so until we begin to realize what problem were they trying to solve by turning to drugs and

alcohol, that deep loneliness, the deep pain, the deep emptiness, that deep longing to feel connected, all of those drugs seem to solve that for them. And so we can't really help people with addiction by just working on the symptoms. We got to get to that root issue. So we start, so I was in, um, part of Canada where all the treatment centers were talking

about trauma and we got to be trauma informed. And so I asked them like, is anybody willing to change their program? And none of them were. Um, and I had started some addicts asked me to start a Friday night thing where I'd started teaching this stuff. So that's where these videos started.

So I started 17 years ago, teaching around what I was learning. Um, and started with 50 addicts coming out and it grew and grew and grew. Um. Yeah. Your channel is fascinating, man. Yeah. And so what came out of that was when there

were like 10 treatment centers, nobody would change their program. Wow. Though they all said they needed to start dealing with the trauma. So I said, well, I guess I, I got to start and I didn't want to start a treatment center, but I did. So React started as a treatment center for

addiction and complex trauma. Um, and it spread to three different locations in Canada. Um, but then COVID hit and, um, so we put it online and then once people heard, and we call it Lyft, just to give it a different name, because it was online. And once people heard about it, now we have people from 30 different, over 30 different

countries that are. So that was a blessing, huh? Yeah. And so now like thousands are taking Lyft and it's, it's much more intense. It's a 15 week program,, program, but you get, you get a deep dive into understanding trauma and then learning what a healthy life looks like and

connecting with a group of people in the journey. Wow. That's incredible, man. So in the days when treatment centers just basically worked on symptoms, so relapse warning signs, triggers, people, places and things, um, halt all of the hungry, hungry, hungry, lonely, tired.

Yeah. All of those different things, what they began to, what they saw was their success rate was less than 10%. Once we started React and we've kept statistics, our success rate is over 50%. Tim, that's great. Yeah. Cause you're dealing with helping people deal with that core stuff.

That's been the issue. Yeah. Well, one of the reasons that I loved being in AA, I didn't even know sometimes if I was an alcoholic, right? That's still questioned the alcohol part. I don't know, but I know that I would sit in meetings and people would get to share how they felt and I never got to do that. Exactly.

You know, like I never, no one ever asked me how I fucking felt. You know, it was just like, if I had a feeling, whatever it was, I didn't even probably know what it was for years. I probably thought I had indigestion in my brain, you know, like, cause I know it's like, but if I had a fee, I just, I had to figure it out myself. And, um, yeah, I mean, it just, so, uh, when I got into the rooms and people could share how they felt and nobody could say anything, there's no cross talk allowed. So somebody got to share how they felt and it just got to sit there. And man, I didn't know how much of my life, my whole life I needed, not even maybe say something, but to even be in the environment of that.

Yes. To have an idea or a feeling or thought be spoken into the world and have it not completely rejected, you know? Because sometimes I felt like I've, yeah, I don't know, I gotta be careful sometimes not to always take things back to how I feel because my feelings sometimes, it's like a secret, it's like, you know, when somebody puts a dollar on a string, I'll go get that dollar, right, to see how I feel about something,

but they'll pull me back into all that old shame. So I have to be careful of that. So what are some of the mechanisms you guys use in React? Like what are some of the things that help people get to those core issues? So it's divided into two phases. So part of what you realize with trauma is it's healing trauma means reprocessing it. That doesn't mean just going into the pain and

sitting in the pain as if there's benefit in just feeling pain. It means I'm going now with tools so that I can learn from it, so that I can heal it, so that I can grow through it. That's reprocessing it. Um, but there's a, a risk in taking people to reprocess it because you are opening a can of worms. It is going to take them to some pain and trigger

them. And so they need what we call agency. They need a certain amount of tools before they ever get to the trauma or else the trauma is going to overwhelm them. I see. So you guys work on this. So phase one is, you know, you're going to they need a certain amount of tools before they ever get to the trauma or else the

trauma is going to overwhelm them. I see. So you guys work on this. So phase one is self-awareness, basic tools, emotional regulation, what to do if you're triggered, building, um, a safe community for people so that they can share emotions and not have anybody judge them where people hold

space for them. So that's phase one. Then phase two, we start digging into shame. We dig into anger, we dig into emotions, we dig into boundaries, we dig into grief and loss. Um, and so we start getting into the kind of the main areas of trauma and really help people begin to heal. So the first half of the week is really digging deep into it. And then the second half is practical tools and

what does healthy look like? Um, shame is such a huge magnet, huh? It's huge. How does that, how does shame start? Is that a fair question about shame? What's a, I think it's, uh, it starts with the parent child relationship, not being right. Is shame a good thing? What's a. I think it's, it starts with the parent child relationship, not being right.

Is shame originally a positive thing? There must be a, is there a certain value to a little bit of shame? Like what is a little bit of shame called? It's like. So some people have tried to make a distinction around healthy shame versus toxic shame, but to me, healthy shame is actually guilt.

Okay. So guilt is if I do something that violates love, I tell a lie, hit somebody, I cheat on them, I should feel guilty. Right. That's a natural. Cause that motivates me to get back to a, a loving, healthy situation.

Cause as long as I stay in stuff that violates love, I'm destroying relationships. I'm making a worse life for myself. So guilt is a good thing and I can resolve guilt. So it's about what I do that violates love. Shame is about who I am. It's nothing about what I do. Wow.

So that's huge to notate those two things. Like it can be okay to feel some guilt about things. It's important. That's me getting a sign like, Hey man, this is a, it's almost like a U-turn sign. It's like a good road sign really. Even though it hurts some, you need that because it helps you recognize that you're

going against love. You're doing something against love, but then shame is unhealthy. And I can do nothing about it. So shame is about who I am that I'm not good enough. Right. Shame. I then attach whatever I did immediately and that feeling.

And that's where the two then feed each other. So as soon as I do something wrong, that proves my shame. Right. That I'm useless. And that goes back to that child, that child doing something wrong, something's wrong in his world, in her world. And they, they, they don't know how to solve

it because they're a child. So the, and all the only person in the world is them, so if something's wrong in their world or they're not getting what they need or their needs met, then of course it must be their fault. So that's where shame builds. Exactly. So that's where shame builds. Exactly. Wow. So that's where we say that a key part of

complex trauma is false guilt. So you're made to feel guilty, though you've done nothing wrong, which then feeds shame. So dad says, I'm mad because you're a terrible kid. Well, no, that's not why dad's mad or I drink because you're a terrible kid. Dad's mad because he's a Lions fan.

Exactly. And so it's, it's, you're now feeling I did something wrong, therefore I am wrong. Right. Right. Yeah. Man. And so to help people heal, they got to deal

with legitimate guilt and they can fix that. They got to correct all the lies that led to false guilt. So every time that somebody's impatient with them, they go, what am I doing wrong? You're not doing anything wrong. That's the other person's problem. Or somebody's upset with them because they said, no, no, you set a good boundary.

You shouldn't apologize for that, but they feel guilty or they relax for a few minutes. I'm lazy. No, you set a good boundary. You shouldn't apologize for that, but they feel guilty or they relax for a few minutes. I'm lazy. No, you're not. You're relaxing. So you got false guilt from lie after lie after lie. So you got to reprogram that. Then you got shame that I'm therefore not good

enough, which is all based on lies. And that's all got to be reprogrammed and that takes a ton of work. Does it? Yeah. What does some of that takes a ton of work. Does it? Yeah. What does some of that work look like if even. Yeah, I would say shame to me is the biggest

healing journey that comes out of complex trauma. And it takes the longest and takes years because there's so many thousands of subtle lies that people develop that they don't even realize. Yeah. Um, and the problem is they get triggered easily and then all of a sudden they're spiraling downhill that I'm a piece of shit and

they don't know why, but it's something's triggered an old lie that's led to that proves that I'm useless. Um, and so there's a big journey in self awareness and beginning to understand the lies that I believe that are below the surface, self awareness and beginning to understand the lies that I believe that are below the surface that are subconscious. Beginning to understand the things that trigger

that, begin to understand the patterns that take place once I'm triggered and where I spiral to and stopping those patterns, that's the work. And so if I can give one other piece of teaching. Okay. So it's so key with complex trauma to understand the two parts of the brain that are kind of the main things that motivate

our behavior. So the limbic system, which is the emotion center, that's the child's brain. That's the child. That develops first. Yes. Then the cortex that keeps growing till our 35-ish. The thinking, the executive function that gets

called, that processes information. The key thing about the limbic brain, the child brain is it's instant gratification focus. So a child, do you want to do your chores or do you want to sit here and watch TV? Well, whatever makes me feel good. Right. So that determines what I want to do.

And then whether I want to do something, I don't feel like it. I don't feel like doing that or I want a new puppy, I feel like feeding the puppy until I don't feel like feeding the puppy. So emotions guide my behavior and everything is instant gratification focused. Wow. And a lot of that, if you, if you had trauma as a child, then you're still even that, even that

could be a pattern. So. That you still continue because yeah, that's a lot of addicts. So the key with that is that when fear is triggered, that's limbic brain. So if you're in complex trauma, you're in constant fear.

So you're constantly in your limbic brain. So your cortex doesn't develop properly. So an adult or a teenager, you're in constant fear. So you're constantly in your limbic brain. So your cortex doesn't develop properly. So an adult or a teenager, they're going through gradually switching to their cortex and learning to think stuff through. Complex trauma, you're still in your limbic brain, still thinking only of instant gratification.

What do I feel like? What, everything is about emotions, even though you're not aware of your emotions. And so a huge part of what happens with shame when it's triggered is I could be living as an adult today, out of my cortex, making good decisions, healthy decisions. When my shame gets triggered, it triggers

my limbic brain again. And I go back to a child and I think like a child and I believe the lies of the child. And so what you realize is the, the battles in your brain between your cortex and your limbic brain, they believe two different things. It depends on what gets triggered. Wow.

It's almost like you have a heaven and hell right there kind of. Exactly. Oh my gosh. And so that's where people with shame, they can be doing wonderful, great in relationships and their shame gets triggered and all of a sudden they're destroying everybody, calling their kids terrible

names, calling their partner terrible names. Yeah. And it's like, what just happened there while you went to your limbic brain and you acted out of that shame lie, that's when the damage gets done. Those triggers, huh? Those things, it's wild. You had to go back to that.

Yeah. So you can, you can imagine though, how long that would take to heal. Cause when that trigger hits, like it hits with an intensity of a locomotive. Um, cause it brings with it cortisol, it brings with all the chemicals. All the drugs, yeah.

And how do you stop that? Like the train's out of the chemicals. All the drugs, yeah. And how do you stop that? Like the train's out of the station here, buddy. Oh yeah. If somebody pulls up with a train full of drugs, dude, I'm getting on. Exactly. I was going to tell you that right now and I'll probably sit in business class, but yeah, my, my

brother sometimes would say, uh, trying to locate that shame and stuff. It was like taking panties out of a bathtub. Yes. That's what he talks about it like sometimes. Yeah. Some days you get a couple and some days you do, you just, you don't even know you're in it.

Yeah. So as a person grows in healing, so let's say you would get triggered and you start spiraling, but you've got enough self awareness, you'd catch yourself. Right. And you, I know what's going on here. Then you ground yourself, you regulate your

emotions and you get back to your cortex and you go, Hey, I'm believing lies there. I'm not that useless person. Right. And I don't have to do that. And you get, and so what you find is all of a sudden that spiral just stopped. So instead of being in it for four days, you're

now only in it for 15 minutes and you caught yourself. Now there's going to be a bit of a hangover effect as you kind of keep working through emotions with it. But within a day you're back to being in a pretty good place and you've grown a little bit. And then because of that, you probably won't get

triggered as intensely in that area again, cause you've grown. So that next time something happens, the trigger won't be intense and it won't be as frequent. And so over time you're growing with greater infrequency and less intensity until you don't get triggered there anymore. Um, but that can take a few years, but it can happen.

It can happen. Wow. It's really, it's really possible. It is. Yeah. And, um, yeah, do you get a lot of people who are feeling like at their, at their wits end? What are like things you that are, you're seeing people doing outside of drugs,

uh, patterns that, um, I would love to, if it's okay to hear about some of those, because I would love people to know that these types of things are repairable. Yep. I would say some of the main ones that I would see right now are mental health issues, like major depression, anxiety issues that just make life unlivable really, and are really getting in the way of relationships, family, stuff like that. Secondly is anger issues that just the flare ups

and the outbursts. That's what I have. And the damage that it does that just brings them to a desperation point that I got to get help or I'm going to lose everything. Um, then with younger people, there's this greater and greater kind of self harm, um, suicidal ideation deep in their thinking that's going on eating disorder stuff that is slowly getting them

to a point where they go, I think I got a problem. So that's big, but I think maybe the biggest one right now is the number of people burning out. They just are like working 60, 80 hour weeks and they're getting to a point where they're just can't do this anymore. What's going on with my life. Um, but I think to me, the biggest one that

probably gets people is relationships. Just, especially when they have kids. Yeah. I can't, I gotta be a better dad than my dad was. And right now I'm, though I said I'd never be like my dad, I'm becoming like my dad. I know. Man, that's gotta be tough, huh?

Yeah. And it's just a wake up call for them that rocks their world, but that's what they need. And what are they, so that's one of the biggest pressures you see with people in just that, to having to be better than their parents or is it, like, what do you mean with relationships with kids? Things just start to get tougher or they fall apart? Yeah.

So the, you get, um, their kids start rebelling or their kids are getting into drugs or their kids are cutting and they're going like, I'm failing as a parent. Why? What's what then they start to think about it and they go, like, I'm failing as a parent, why, what's what, then they start to think about it and they go, yeah, okay, I get it. Um, I came from crappy upbringing and I'm

passing it on. And they, I think what they realize is complex trauma tends to be generational. Really? If I don't deal with it, I pass on what I've learned. Oh, of course. And I do it to my kids. generational. Really? If I don't deal with it, I pass on what I've learned. Oh, of course. And I do it to my kids.

Um, cause to me, that's all I know. Those are the only tools in my toolbox. I'm going to use them. Um, and so it becomes a generational thing. And when you see what you're doing to your kids, you go. The proof's too real. I can't do that to my kids because I know

what it did to me. Um. Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. When you have a child, you really get to see the proof of the recipe you made and then you realize you're the damn ingredient. Well, exactly. And the other piece to that is what happens

for a lot of kids is when you're living in constant pain that you can't resolve, you go, how do I make the pain go away? Well, I can escape or I cannot care. So don't love anybody shut down love and not care. Just get hard inside and they can do that and pull it off and, and look like they're successful until they have kids and all

of a sudden love. Love wins. Yeah. And all of a sudden they love again and they go, ah, everything matters now again, and I got to do something. Wow. That's gotta be scary. Yeah.

I got, I got two things actually, uh, Tim. So is it possible for parents to do a good job? I don't want to get just stuck in this place where it's like, we're just contributing to this thing in the world that everybody's damaged and that we all need help. That's one question. And just so I don't forget, when we say like things are generational, do you think that where we are now and like people, there's a lot more mental health issues and stuff like that. Is it because just how we've gone through time and this is where we're ending up at as humans? Is it because, you know, I've had theories that maybe it's because we don't have to have fear of the, like a bear in the woods as much anymore, so now that fear turns inward and so we're hunting this bear inside of us or this lion in the shadows

all the time, you know, like, um, but yeah, those are, those are my two questions. Like, um, why do you think it's kind of coming to a head in a lot of ways? And is that just in America too? Is it just in like Western culture? Um, I would say probably Western culture or about 10 to 20 years ahead of a lot of cultures and understanding this. Um, I think to me what's happened is the research scientifically that's been done on the

brain and trauma in the last 10 to 15 years has really started to open people up to understanding stuff. And what we've begun to realize is you can't heal trauma just with knowledge. You need safe connection. Oh yeah. You got to have an environment where people can talk about it. And people have started to create those

environments and people are starting to talk. Um, and so in some ways it's like, it's, it's people can talk about it and people have started to create those environments and people are starting to talk. Um, and so in some ways it's like, it's, it's a new phenomena, but it's the way it should always have been that we could talk about what's really going on. Um, but we're getting there gradually. Um, but I think it's really been fueled by a lot

of the research that's been happening and the growing understanding of how magnificent our brains are and how they develop and all of that. And how childhood used to be all about like nurture versus nature. And it was all about, you know, your genes, et cetera, et cetera. Really all the evidence is no, it's nurture.

It's, it's what's happening in that child's life that's shaping them and forming how they look at the world and think about themselves. That's the key thing. And epigenetics is all about nurture and it even determines how our genes fire. Um, and so, so it's, it's really beginning to understand more scientifically what's been

happening that's been so key. I think when it comes to parenting, the, so a couple of thoughts, the, the danger is every parent wants to be a perfect parent. And it's really important to go, it's all about good enough parenting. Nobody's a perfect go, it's all about good enough parenting. Nobody's a perfect parent, but we can be good enough parents and that means we're going to fail. We're not going, we can't be super man to our kids.

We have limitations. We can't be awake 24 seven, but we can be good enough. So a child needs parents who are attuned to them and who connect. Now you don't connect 24 seven with a child, but they need a few minutes a day of just really safe connection with the parent to feel, okay, this is my rock. This is, I'm secure.

Everything's okay with the world. Um, and parents can provide that good enough connection. And so what's been so important, I'm secure, everything's okay with the world. Um, and parents can provide that good enough connection. And so what's been so important, I think for parents to understand is our whole focus in the West as parenting is you got to meet their physical

needs, physical needs, you know, you got to make sure they're get their milk at this time and they get the bed and they have safety and all. What we're realizing is the child's biggest needs are emotional needs and there's acceptance and that attunement and that connection, all of those needs are so important for a child if they're going to develop normally and healthily.

And if parents can learn how to meet their emotional needs of their kids, that's what they can do. So the other piece to that is we often talk about dysfunctional family and we think the opposite of dysfunctional is a perfect family, but there's no such thing as a perfect family. Right.

So the word dis is actually a Greek word that means pain. And so it's a family in pain is a dysfunction perfect family. Right. So the word dis is actually a Greek word that means pain. And so it's a family in pain is a dysfunctional family. So it's a family that's inflicting pain in each other, but is never resolving it. So it's a complex trauma. Ah, so the opposite of a dysfunctional family is

a functional family, which is a family that inflicts pain once in a while, but they resolve it. And by resolving that pain, then the child isn't traumatized because it's getting resolved. Right. Yeah. That processing is so huge.

I think when I think back on my own life, um, and not to just talk about my own life, I guess I just want, I'm trying to have shared, like, just so I can try and relate, you know? Um, I'm not sitting here trying to be like, Oh, my, my life. But, uh, yeah, I would, I, if somebody had been there to be like, Hey, this is what's happening and this is why it's happening. Oh man. Cause otherwise, yeah, I was just trying to figure everything out for myself. And, uh, there was never just any information. There was no, I felt that's what I felt like when I was just trying to figure everything out for myself. And, uh, there was never just any information.

There was no, I felt that's what I felt like when I was a kid. I felt like I worked at a restaurant, right? That I had to work at every day and I never got paid and I never knew what was on the menu and I never even knew if we were open or closed. You didn't know where the pots and pans were. But I had to be there every single day. Yeah. And I had to show up to work.

That's how I felt. And it, um, yeah, I don't know what that means or anything. Well, I think for a lot of kids in complex trauma, they feel like they're chasing their tail, running in circles in a fog. Um, they just know they're supposed to be doing something that nobody's showing them what to do.

So they're running around, hoping that they're going to figure it out, but they're not sure if they're figuring it out. So there's just this constant haze of confusion. Yeah. That's there. And so unsafe, man. I remember, I mean, I went to bed

until I was probably 27, probably. Yep. I mean, I remember when I would go to bed at night, it felt like I was literally clocking in for a job as like an orderly at a hospital because I knew in a couple hours I was going to have to get up and change my sheets. And sometimes I wet the bed three, four times

a night, to be honest. And, uh. That's very common with complex trauma. I would pee around my bed. I thought that something was gonna come get me. And I'd heard that like animals will pee and prevent other animals from coming. Mark the territory.

I mean, when I think back on that, some kid doing that, a fucking nine-year-old kid doing that, I mean, I was like, the pattern I had to go through to look around my room to make sure there was nothing in there was gonna get me, it must have taken 12 minutes each night to do it all the exact same way so that I could then get into my bed, man.

I was. And then we get children that, um, kind of sleep with their back against the wall, facing the door. Um, so that they're not going to have anybody behind them and they can see anything that comes in, some even sleep with a weapon nearby in case something happens. That's crazy. Yeah.

And yeah, and I think of my stuff, my, my, my child was pretty light. When I think about what some kids could go through, you know, mine was really more neglect. It wasn't any abuse, you know, um, but it was just wandering around in a fucking, yeah, at an empty Costco with a fucking name tag on wondering where the manager was, you know? Um, anyway, sorry, sometimes I'm still, I still have a lot of anger about it.

It's been hard to process over the years. No, but to me you should. And if I can just speak to that, but to me you should. And if I can just speak to that. Yeah. Cause to me, what happens in a lot of complex trauma families is anger is seen as bad. You're always punished for anger. Though when you think about anger, anger

is actually designed to be something good. If something violates love, so somebody lies to me or somebody cheats on me, I should get angry because what they're doing is going to destroy the relationship if they don't fix it. So anger is actually a healthy thing that motivates me to act to say, Hey, this isn't right. This is, this is wrong.

But in complex trauma, that gets knocked down, never validated, judged. And so part of the healing journey for a lot of But in complex trauma, that gets knocked down, never validated, judged. And so part of the healing journey for a lot of people is being able to validate their anger. Yeah, I should be angry because that was crap. I shouldn't have been neglected like that. Now I'm not going to stay there. I'm not going to feed it and turn it into deep

bitterness, but I need to let that anger be honest if I'm going to heal it and turn it into deep bitterness, but I need to let that anger be honest if I'm going to heal. Yeah. Sometimes as an adult, I feel like I've, I'm healed from it sometimes, but I still feel like that kid is not happy. Exactly. That's literally what it feels like sometimes.

Like he comes up to the surface of my fucking throat. Yes. Literally he'll be just playing in the distance and he'll run up and yell out, exactly. Just right out of the, I cannot, it's like, exactly. And I say, okay, that's where he's at. You know what I'm saying? We're in a cheap, trying to work with him. But yeah, I think a lot of my anger now is from, I have unrealistic expectations of people, of myself. Yeah. I didn't even realize it, literally it's like three or four days ago. Somebody brought it to my attention, man, my brother.

And I was like, oh my gosh. I've had him since I was, my whole life I've had this to-do list that I don't even know, I feel like every day I'm already behind schedule and I don't have a schedule. That's what every single, I'm running behind. and I don't have a schedule. Yeah. That's what every single I'm running behind. Got to do this. What is it?

I don't know, but we better get, I got to do it. And that's how I am like, no, and nothing, no one can ever do anything perfect enough, you know? So to tie that in with what you just shared, what we've found with most people with complex trauma is what they begin to realize is it's like there's a part of them that got left behind that's still a child. So some refer to it as like their inner child, but the little boy that's still down there.

And some have a whole bunch of little boys that are different ages and different. Well, that person is a politician. Exactly. Uh, but anyways, what they've realized is they, there's a part of them that kind of hates that little boy and wishes you shut up and then quit bugging them and grow up and all of that kind of

treats them like they were treated. And they have to learn to love and nurture that little boy. Okay. Cause that's part of them and, and just welcome them, make space for them, be curious, what's going on? Why are you upset? Like, I'm not going to judge you.

Just help me understand and then help them process through it. Cause nobody helped them process through it. And eventually that little boy can heal. And so that's a useful tool for a lot of people is beginning to go, let's welcome that little boy and parent that little boy, even though it's me, but it's part of me and it's a part of me that got wounded. So if somebody's sitting there right now is listening, right.

And they're like, how would you start to have some of that conversation with yourself? And is there a certain setting you would kind of do it in just to even try and get us some awareness of that inner child, as people say. A lot of it is different for everybody. And so you got to kind of find what works for you. What, what some people do is they can go in their imagination to kind of a safe place in their house that they liked as a kid or a safe place in the backyard or a tree or something in the woods,

whatever, and they can go there and kind of picture that little child and connect with that little child. Others can do it through going through like picture albums, see when they're four years old, when they're seven years old. that little child and connect with that little child. Others can do it through going through like picture albums, see when they're four years old, when they're seven years old and go, oh, I remember what I was feeling then and what I was thinking.

Or the other one is when they get triggered and that voice in their head and they go, well, okay, that, how old do I feel right now? And they go, I feel three, I feel eight. And it's like, okay, let's connect with that part of me. And that's that part of the, your limbic brain that's been triggered, which doesn't keep track of time that's still stuck at that age.

Wow. Yeah, that's a great point. When that's happening, that part of you is showing up. Exactly. So that's as crazy as it is, it's a great time to connect. What I say to people is a trigger, don't get down on yourself if you get triggered. Go trigger is my little boy saying ouch and be curious and go, it's trying to get my attention saying there's a wound here that never has been healed.

What's going on buddy? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I went to this center for a week. It was in, this was in Scottsdale. It was about sexual health. Not necessarily about actual physical act of sex, but like emotional health, emotional wellness, all that. And we had to go get a doll from a dang, um, baby, uh, Oh, build a bears.

So we roll up and build a bears, dude, a couple, I mean, we got out of a white van and went in there. So obviously we look like politicians, you know, uh, so we, like one of us definitely a peeping Tom, you know, um, you give it all candy at the back. We look like flashers that had gone on a field trip. That's what we look like. We look like definitely, and then we're in there buying doll and there's like these other, uh, there's

other people, like there's kids in there getting, it was just like, the whole thing was just so bizarre, But then you'd have to sit with this dang doll and just talk to you, you know, like, and every now and then there was some moments of like, you could almost feel a doll just be like, hey man, just sit here with me for a little bit. Yeah. You can almost feel, it was like a feeling you would get like, hey, just, just stay with me for a minute. Yeah. Like, man, when I was a kid, if somebody just stayed with me for a minute.

Made a big difference. Fuck, man. I can't even... I mean, a minute, you know? Yeah. It just would have made me feel like somebody wants to be there with me, you know, I just never, I can't believe I even, you know, I'm not trying to have self-pity, but I just can't believe that shit, man. And I'm fortunate that we had food and stuff on the table. I can't imagine in places where kids don't have that or don't have a sibling to at least

like come in the room and make them smile or something, man, it's heartbreaking. It is. They should have a program when you leave the hospital with your child that there's, you know what I'm saying? Like even a basic, like, Hey, look in your child's eyes. This is how you do this. These are the, these are four things, you know, like it, do they have anything like that? They're starting to, um, what's her name?

She's out of San Francisco. She just wrote a book called the deepest well. Now it's a good book. Yeah. And she's been very much involved with ACE, which is at, um, adverse childhood experiences, the ACE test. Yeah. Oh, I think I, and she that a test you take? Yeah.

Oh, I think I, is that 10 questions or something? Yeah. Yeah. And she's, she was a pediatrician in San Francisco. Nadine Burke Harris is her name. Okay. So she's moved up the ranks in San Francisco and she started parenting courses for people.

So Desmond Tuss who said, we got to stop pulling people out of the river. We got to go down river and stop them from getting pushed in the river. And that's what this is all about. We got to start working with parents. So we've act, we're actually developing a parenting course that we're piloting,

piloting right now, just because it's, it's great work helping people get healthy in their forties and fifties, but we got help parents not pass this on. Yeah. We got to fix it and try to help at the beginning. So, um, let me think. And what were we just talking about before? Yeah. The ACEs, the ACEs quiz right here. This is a fascinating, I took this test in a treatment

facility and it blew my mind. Let's go back just a little bit. I just want to read the top. Okay. What to know before you take the quiz. Researchers determined that 10 specific traumatic childhood experiences or ACEs could be linked to a higher likelihood of health challenges later in life and that the likelihood of these negative effects increased with the number of ACEs a child experienced. Tim, you want to take us in a little further? So these were really developed with a focus mainly on abuse. And so we still use it because it's very effective. But it's that hit and neglect stuff it touches on, but it doesn't develop. And so most professionals now use this test, but

then we add other stuff to help people capture some of the neglect stuff. But what, what basically has come out of the ACE stuff test, um, is through years of tracking people with it is if you have two ACEs or three ACEs, more ACEs you get, the more your chances of depression, mental health issues, the more your chances of drug, alcohol addiction, the more your

chances of violence in the family, like abuse, partner abuse, the more your chances of suicide, attempts. It's just, and then your greater your chances for heart issues, diabetes, health issues, it just messes everything up in your body. It's fascinating. It says here the 10 ACEs and we'll get to the questions in a second, were defined as

the following childhood experiences, physical, sexual or verbal abuse, physical or emotional neglect, separation or divorce, a family member with mental illness, a family member addicted to drugs or alcohol, a family member with mental illness, a family member addicted to drugs or alcohol, a family member who is in prison, witnessing a parent being abused. It says, still there are variables that the quiz doesn't account for,

including stressors outside of the home, as well as the important role positive influences play on buffering the effects of trauma. So let's see those questions real quick. Did a parent or other adult in the household often or very often a, swear at you, insult you, put you down or humiliate you or b, act in a way that made you afraid that you might be physically hurt? Did a parent or other adult in the... So that's number one. So there's 10 questions here and the more you get right, the odds of countless tougher pastures in your life.

Yes. The consequences, the ramifications just grow. Did a parent or other adult in the household often or very often push, grab, slap, or throw something at you? Or B, ever hit you so hard that you had marks or were injured? Did an adult or person at least five years older than you ever touch you or fondle you or have you touch their body in a sexual way?

Or B, attempt or actually have oral, anal, or vaginal intercourse with you? Four, did you often or very often feel that, A, no one in your family loved you or thought you were important or special, or B, your family didn't look out for each other, feel close to each other, or support each other? You wanna do these, Tim?

Yeah. Is that okay? Yep. Did you often or very often feel that, A, you didn't have enough to eat, had to wear dirty clothes and had no one to protect you or B, your parents were too drunk or high to take care of you or take you to the doctor if you needed it. And number six, were your parents ever

separated or divorced? And I would just say that lots of research is starting to happen around the effects of divorce on children. And I think just say that lots of research is starting to happen around the effects of divorce on children because often we think it doesn't affect them that much because they still see both parents, but it does. And it's just very subtle, but it's powerful. Was your parent caregiver a, often or very often

pushed, grabbed, slapped, or had something thrown at him or her? Or B, sometimes, often or very often, kicked, bitten, hit with a fist, or hit with something hard? Or C, ever repeatedly hit over at least a few minutes or threatened with a gun or knife? Did you live with anyone who has a, was a problem drinker or alcoholic or use

street drugs? Number nine was a household member depressed or mentally ill or did a household member attempt suicide? And 10 did a household member go to prison? So those 10 questions right there, the more you answer, if you even get three of those, yes, your odds of. Yeah. Addiction I think are above 50%.

Yeah. And that's unbelievable because I don't know. I don't think I know 10 people that don't have at least two of them. Exactly. And you notice it's talked about neglect just a little bit, but it doesn't go into workaholic dad, narcissistic dad, all the subtle little types of neglect and that's,

so we've actually created a, an ACE test of 65 questions that really capture all the nuances of neglect. Interesting. Yeah, this, I just remember Reed, I remember we, in this, in this facility, we all went over this and then people read theirs and half of the class, and some of the people in the class were like mayors in their towns and stuff.

And they had really, some of them had really beaten some unforeseeable odds. You know, and then it made sense to you when you looked around back around my high school and certain kids are like, Oh yeah, it makes total sense. Why that kid's not alive anymore or why that guy's in prison or, um, or why that guy's in, you know, in a rehab facility. Pretty wild, pretty wild.

Um, but I don't want to get into that downer mentality, but it is just fascinating. There's a lot out there, you know. Yeah. Um, and that just supports like so much of the research that's happening right now, just in understanding the effects of childhood on a, so we're not just blowing hot air here. This is all well researched and continues to be researched in great detail.

And it's just growing and growing in our understanding of this very important topic. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I think I was just curious about. I just want, if people are like, cause here's where I found myself. I found myself in a place for me where I couldn't understand why I wasn't able to do certain things. Like, especially like with relationships and stuff like that, I kept thinking that it would change and, um, and it, and it just hasn't, it's gotten better. Things have gotten better. I'm a lot more aware.

I don't make a lot of the same mistakes as I used to. I don't get people into situations that I'm leading them to believe that there's something that, you know, if there isn't something, you know, like, but I still have just a severe fear of a lot of it. And as you get older, it's like, well, how the heck am I ever going to have a family then? You know, will I ever be able to have that or should I just, you know, keep to myself more? You know, not in a negative way, but in a positive, you know, keep to myself more, you know, not in a negative way, but in a positive, you know, it's like. So I would, and I say this all the time to

people that come to our program, there is hope, but be prepared. It takes a lot of work and it's not a quick fix. This is going to take a lot of time, um, because this started in childhood and you don't undo that overnight, but there is hope. Yeah. I heard you talk on one of your, thanks. Thanks for saying that to me.

It just didn't know anybody that's listening, you know, and I believe that, um, I believe that when I go into meetings and you see guys that like two years ago were like addicted to prostitutes and now they're getting married and they're getting married and they're having children. It's like you see people change their lives or guys who had never even been on a date in two years and were just addicted to pornography and didn't even realize

they were addicted. It was just a pattern of comfort. I remember when I found my wiener, dude, when I was probably, I don't even know. Once I found something that could make me feel good. Yep. So soothing. I, yeah, you could have played all the, uh, you could play all the mad and you wanted, I was like, I had my own game. Exactly. And I was two point conversion and all the time, but I was doing it.

It was like, that was unbelievable to me. I would bike across town to go look at pornography at my buddy's house, going in digging up pornos over there, man. It was just, cause it was the first time I also had a relationship with a woman. Even it was just on a damn page or drawing. We had a dude who would draw you some ovaries or something for the weekend. So can I speak scientifically to that again? I don't want to go too long here, but I.

Okay, cool. Yeah. And sorry, I know I'm just talking about a lot of stuff, Tim, I just, sorry, we're doing our best. So what we know is when you look at the brain chemicals, the brain only produce, is designed to produce positive chemicals. So you got dopamine pleasure chemical, then

you got serotonin that feel good connected, what you get, um, ecstasy is part of, and then you've got oxytocin, I'm in love chemical. So those three chemicals are designed to be produced all the time in the brain of a child because they connect with the parent. Ah. So they, with the parent. Ah. So they, they feel good.

They feel a deep joy. They feel a deep contentment and their needs are being met. And that's so connection and the meeting of needs causes those chemicals to be released. Complex trauma, you're not connecting and your needs aren't being met. Zero chemicals.

Wow. So what's your brain feel? acting and your needs aren't being met, zero chemicals. Wow. So what's your brain feel? Cortisol, anger, hyper, pain, rebellion, all of that is happening. So what do you then find? The first thing that gives you comfort. And part of what we know is your parents are supposed to soothe you when you get

dysregulated, when you have negative emotions. But if you can't connect to them, then you're not being soothed properly. So you find the first thing that self soothes. And so some people rock. So we would rock. My brother and I's beds were on wheels and in the morning they would be in the corner of their other corner of the room. Exactly. We would rock all brother and I's beds were on wheels. And in the morning they would be in the corner

of the other corner of the room. Exactly. We would rock all night like that. And so what we know is when you cut, it actually releases opioids in the brain. And so you don't feel the pain, you feel the relief of the good feeling. Wow.

And so guys find their wiener and all of a sudden they get a good chemical in their brain. Well, that's better than no chemicals. So let's go back and let's get more. Serving up that wiener sauce, baby. It was horrible. Yeah. But that's crazy.

So it, yeah, it's like, oh, this is a good feeling. Exactly. Of course I'm going to do it again, again. Exactly. Why else wouldn't I? The second something triggers me, I feel bad course I'm gonna do it again and again. Exactly. Why else wouldn't I? The second something triggers me, I feel bad. I'm gonna make myself feel good.

Now I have the ability to make myself feel good. That was the first time in my life I had the ability, any like method, you know, that's why I think it's so important to, your child just doesn't know how to make themselves feel better. Nobody's super. So if something is wrong with your child, you have to sit and teach them.

I'm not trying to preach at people, but I wish somebody for me, it's sad and said, Hey, right now you feel this way. This is going to, you're going to be okay. It's everything you're going to get to here. Everything's going to be okay. And I'm going to sit here with you while you do it. Exactly. You know?

And, um, yeah, man, stuff like that. Just so crucial. Yeah. Um, when it, when it, before you go to him and thank you so much, man, stuff like that just so crucial. Before you go Tim, and thank you so much, man. Really, really appreciate it. I really kind of think of this as a service call in a way. My pleasure. And just grateful, man. So many of your videos, you have the one,

it's like, you're leaving, can I, will you take, what is that video title? It's the codependency one. Yeah. Um, if you leave, can I come with you? Yeah. Yeah. It's just so like, get out. Can I come with you? It's like, that was like, God.

Um, yeah. What's kind of is it's this, it's, uh, um, co complex trauma isn't a one. There's not one fix really. Right. What's kind of is it's this, it's, uh, um, co complex trauma isn't a one, there's not one fix really. Right. That's, um, what is there, how do you view like the repairing process overall? And I think it's great to emphasize that there's

not just one fix because so much of the focus in the West has been around. Let's just, um, do this one program and then like you're magically going to be fixed. So we're always looking for almost like a magical solution. Oh, even with treatment centers, it's like, here's a 30 day treatment center.

Exactly. What are you going to do have on 34th day? Exactly. You know what I'm saying? That's unbelievable that it's a third 30 days doesn't really, it'll help you detox. Exactly. Anyway, sorry. So what we teach our clients is we are intellectual beings, we're physical beings, we're

emotional beings, we're relational beings, and we're spiritual beings. We have to learn to meet all five, the needs of all five of those areas. If we're going to be healthy. And that's what parents were supposed to do is meet the needs of all five of those areas. if we're going to be healthy. And that's what parents were supposed to do is meet the needs of all five of those areas.

But now we've got programs that just try to do a spiritual only solution. That doesn't work. Others try to do just, let's do this one little emotional gimmick. Yeah. No, you got to learn to be. Physical, curl your way to fricking complete

freedom. Exactly. And so it's learning we we're bio, psychosocial, spiritual, let's, we got to learn to meet all those needs and get healthy in all those areas. That's the bottom line. It seems like a lot of work sometimes. It's not a magic solution.

It's hard when people's lives get busy too. I can't imagine once people have a family and stuff and a father or mother has to leave away from their family to go get wellness. So if I can ask you, and this kind of almost, I don't know if it's off the record, but you can decide what to do with it. So we've, we've got a UFC fighter that's

approached us about taking our program. Boston Red Sox, Detroit Lion, Detroit Tigers, some movie stars. But they've all said, we kind of got celebrity status and we're not, can't fit a program into our schedules. Plus we're not sure we want to be in a group we're going to get adored kind of, I'm not sure we're going to be able to share freely.

So we've been giving thought to kind of what do we do to kind of people in your status of life that. Have some popularity that would make things uncomfortable for them or other people, maybe make the pattern might feel different. Yeah. And then has maybe some restraints around their schedules that doesn't allow them to commit for like a 15 week program. So we've been giving some thought to just some things we can do that might enable celebrity

type people to take advantage of the program and still have some connection with people, um, but maybe not the full connection daily. Any thoughts on? I would love to help you think, navigate it some, or get a, so funny you say this, man, I'm just talking with a buddy of mine. Uh, we just had a group last week, um, trying to maybe build something, you know, or just not build something, but yeah, I would love to think about it or I wish there were more meetings that some people could go to, you know, and what that looks like. Yeah, I'd love to talk with you about how I

can be a part of stuff or if there's some meetings that I can join or, you know, I have friends that would like to be in meetings. I think sometimes they're maybe afraid to be in some meetings or whatever, but I'd love to talk about that a little bit more. Because I would value that. Yeah, Tim, 100%. Because we just see like we're getting more and more requests from celebrities, but it's a special niche with special needs. And it's like we almost got accustomed to make something here. Yeah. That's going to need a lot of wisdom to do it, but it's doable. Well, you know, it's so funny.

I thought that if I could get everybody in the world to see me, right. That would fix everything. That it would, that it would like make up for whatever, you know, I didn't know that's what I needed, but it was like, that's what I wanted so much. And I was like, oh, if my mother sees it, everybody thinks I'm okay. She'll have to then see, oh, he's okay. You know, for years, I think one of the reasons I was having trouble, I didn't even realize this, getting into a relationship, I was still in this relationship with my mother. I was still literally, I didn't realize this getting in a relationship. I was still in this relationship with my mother. Yes, exactly

I was still literally I felt like somebody standing on a dock waiting for Their mom to come yeah invalidate them. Yeah You know just literally just to Hold just to I hear that all the time. Really? That's unbelievable. Yeah. You know, and I don't mean it as a shade to my mother. My mother did have a lot of really cool memories. You know, she, there was just that part she didn't even, she didn't even know it existed. If you'd have showed it to her as a color, she wouldn't even be able to see it.

Yep. You know, um, what, what types of things can people notice in their life where they maybe have had complex trauma that they didn't realize it's a fact? Um, what, what types of things can people notice in their life where they maybe have had complex trauma that they didn't realize it's affecting this place? Is there any way we can put some light on that? Or is that too broad of a question?

Well, I think again, for many people workaholic, people pleasing, never able to say no, perfectionism, nothing's ever good enough, control freak issues where they're have to control everybody and everything or image always got to look good, um, and try to impress people all the time or just lots of relationship problems, rifts, um, damage being done now, mental health issues that.

Damn, that's everybody, Tim. Yeah, well, exactly. And so what we've, we started with the React and then the Lyft course, but not everybody can do that. So what we've started now is some self-study courses that people can take on their own time. And then they have an optional group they

can go to once a month, just to kind of share and talk about stuff. Oh cool. Have a one-on-one coach if they want to process through stuff. So that's now available. Um, and then we are doing some workshops on narcissism, inner child stuff, internal family system stuff, shame issues.

So we're trying to do more available stuff to busy people. So can I tell you one of my favorite stories to tell people. There's actually a video now on YouTube where a guy's actually built a bike that operates backwards. So when you think of a bike, you learn to

ride a bike at four or five, six years old. And at first you got to concentrate a lot to get your balance, to turn the steering wheel. Oh yeah. Remember how loose the, remember how crazy the beginning is? You're falling and, but you keep working and concentrating. Oh yeah.

You fall. Somebody's dad calls you a G-A-Y every time. You're like. And then pretty soon you could be talking to your buddies and you're not even thinking about riding, but you're, it's, so it moves from your conscious brain to a subconscious program that just operates. Okay.

And now you could go without riding a bike for 30 years and jump back on and you'd ride it without even thinking. You just pick it right back up. So this guy built a bike where if you turn the handlebars to the left, you actually, the wheel goes to the right. you actually, the wheel goes to the right.

Oh my gosh. Why did he do it? Was he angry at somebody? He wanted to test how quickly could you relearn to ride a bike. Wow. You know how long it took? Six months to a year.

No. Yeah. So you're just saying to relearn things, it takes a while. It takes some time. Exactly. Especially when you learn it so young. And if somebody is just going to therapy,

right, what can they go talk to? How can they start a conversation with their therapist that could help them create more ambiance around maybe some of the stuff that may have happened and how it affects them now? Yeah. So a lot of people go to therapy have happened and how it affects them now. Yeah. So a lot of people go to therapy now because

of a crisis in the present. They need to be able to understand that crisis is probably a symptom of something from the past. And so a lot of therapists just try to give you practical tools. We'll try this, try this, try this. And they're just putting band-aids on cuts on the symptoms.

If you can get your therapist to go like, why am I doing this? What, what's underneath that driving that response and begin to look at shame, begin to look at fears that are there, fears of abandonment, fears of intimacy, fears of rejection, fears of failure. All of those can start getting down to the core root issues that come out of trauma. Yeah.

Sometimes I can ask myself like what's going on, you know, and try to answer myself, you know, like try to legitimately answer myself. Cause my first thought would be like, Oh, nothing, nothing. But then it's like, Oh, nothing, nothing. But then it's like, well, sometimes a fee, I get a feeling first and that's a clue.

Yes. A feeling is just like, uh, yeah, it's just like a little bit of a, like you saw something, but you don't really know. Sometimes if I feel something, I try to feel it more. I like, how can I feel this more? So there's a new term called compassionate inquiry. And so it's when you get a feeling in the past,

we'd get that critic, you stupid, why are you feeling that way? And we judge yourself and get really hard on ourselves. Oh yeah. And so it says, instead of condemning yourself, be curious, compassionate. So you be kind to yourself and then go,

what's going on here? And inquire. Um, and you change the whole way you respond to feelings and triggers. Which, which is huge for a lot of people. And you give yourself some grace too. Exactly. That's the compassion.

That's it. That's like to give yourself some grace, man. Quit beating yourself up. Give yours. Just yeah. Give yourself some grace that you would just, it's the least you can do right now. You can do it. You know.

Exactly. Just give yourself a little bit of grace. That's one thing I've had a tough time with. And I would say probably for most of the people we work with, self-compassion is the hardest thing for them to learn. Why is it hard for us to have self-compassion is the hardest thing for them to learn. Why is it hard for us to have self-compassion? Because shame says, I deserve to beat myself up

because I'm a loser. And often complex trauma parenting is the way to motivate a child to want to change and be better is to beat them up and put them down and punish them, and then they're going to want to prove you wrong or, but that doesn't work in the long run. Eventually you start to believe you are a loser and you just give up.

Um, but you still got all those things in your head that you keep putting yourself down. And then for many people, there's that justice piece that if I commit the crime, I got to do the time, um, and so I did something bad. I'm a bad person. I got to punish myself before I can let myself out of prison. And so there's that sense of justice that has to be served in their mind. And even, and so if they're too hard on themselves,

then they're going to be punished themselves for crimes that aren't real. And you're in prison forever because you never let yourself out. Yeah. Gosh, the crazy thing is I can't real. And you're in prison forever. Cause you never let yourself out. Yeah.

Gosh. The crazy thing is I can't even remember some of the ridiculous patterns I used to have inside of me. I used to have this belief that I had to, I know it sounds silly, but sometimes it feels like you can swallow on different sides of your mouth. I had this thing I had to swallow constantly back and forth or the world would be even. And it was this constant thing all the time. It was like this constant thing.

Um, man, sometimes when I think back on some of the crazy stuff or little patterns, I think a lot of people have them, some of it's just being. So to me, what, what you're, you've really shown me this, the SAFT is this. It shows the child's amazing ability to think there's got to be another way to fix this. Another option available.

If I try this, if I try this, if I try to, I'll swallow different, and you start to believe that if I only do something a little bit different, that'll resolve and fix the problem. But pretty soon you're rocking in your bed, you're peeing around your bed, you're sleeping with your back to the wall, you're swallowing, like you feel you got to control every little

element of life, but it's not fixing anything, but you're still doing it. Yeah. But it's the brain just keeps giving one more. Let's try this. Let's try this. Then let's try this then. And you can keep going till you're in your thirties, but eventually

you're just wearing yourself out and you go, it's hopeless. Not fixing it. Man, it took me so long to see that. I'll just, it's like, yeah, it's the hard to see when you're, it's hard to see the water when you're the fish, you know, whatever they say. It's hard to drink the water or something if you're at the aquarium or whatever. But yeah, that was, God, man, I wish I had gotten a little bit of perspective earlier. But yeah, that's one of the toughest parts, man, is just seeing that thing, recognizing that pattern. I used to think if I was a girl,

maybe if I was a girl, my mother would love me, you know? Or that I would be loved. I don't want to always just pin the tail on my mother. Yeah, just some of that stuff, man. And it's not what was me stuff. It's just fascinating what a child can, they'll create so many realities. But, and with you, you're always thinking, if I just set the bar a bit higher, a bit higher, a bit higher, then that'll surely fix everything. Oh, if I could get the whole world to see me, I don't even know that.

If I could get, then my mother would, of course, would have to see me then. Exactly. How could she miss me? Exactly. You know, if I could just, yeah. And those are just operating systems. I don't, and they were running my life.

I didn't even know it. We still have clients in their fifties and sixties, so they graduate, let's say from our program and they go running and telling their mom, I graduated, you want to see my diploma? Wow. Still looking for mom's validation to mom, to actually see them for the first time in their life. and they get their hopes up and mom doesn't, she

just finds something to criticize or it's just still the same thing or she cares, but it's not the way you need it. Exactly. And so they just get hurt, but they're in their fifties and sixties still chasing mom's validation. Yeah. And I was hypersensitive as a child too. So I think it was, and that was another thing. Like I have to re I have to always say that I was hyper sensitive.

And I still am, but it was like, yeah. So it was. And those were the ones that the neglect affects the most sensitive child. That's what I think it was for me, probably, you know, and my, and my siblings. Yeah. Even with relationships. I mean, I went through this therapy recently and I, and my siblings, um, yeah, even with relationships, I mean, I went through this therapy recently and I, I was like, if I can't be in a relationship cause I'm still

in the, I'm, there's a huge part of me still waiting for this fucking relationship. The first one I was ever supposed to be in. And then when my first girlfriend broke up with me, I said, you can't break up. This came out of my mouth. Tim. I said, you can't break up with me. You're my mother. Wow.

Because I just did, it was the first place I'd attached like any care, you know? Um, damn, I sound like a crazy person, do I? Nope, that's, but see, that's so normal. You still are chasing that primary connection. Yeah. And, uh, you change the face to a young woman. That's not your mother, but you're still chasing your mother's. Well, she was the first girl that I really loved.

So I think it just, yeah, just awoke all that stuff. Yeah. And you're, when you love, you can, then you're like, oh, this is. It was, yeah, this was supposed to happen a long time ago, but now it's happening in this, there's probably a part of you that's like, this was supposed to be our mother. I don't know. I don't know.

I can get in all that stuff. And, and also some of it is like, you know, it's happening in this, there's probably a part of you that's like, this was supposed to be our mother. I don't know. I don't know. I can get in all that stuff. And also some of it is like, the more I look at all that old stuff, it's like trying to find a snake, that bitch or whatever. It's like, you know, it's like, it's like a snake bitch, when goes off into the, and then you chase it for years, right? You want to ask it why it bit you, you know, it's like, I just got to heal it. What about to ask it, why it bit you, you know, it's like. It's like it's going to fix it. I just got to heal it. What about forgiveness? How do, what do you, what's your, what do you,

what do you think about, how do you help people with that, Tim? How does React help people with? Um. I think it's been a, it's such an important concept, but it's been a badly mistaught concept. So a lot of people have seen the value of forgiveness and so all of a sudden when a person comes into recovery, you need to forgive your mom,

you need to forgive. I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't forgive until you've actually validated how badly they've hurt you until you've got honest about it, until you've grieved it, until you've been able to really make space for all the emotions around that, then you're going to get to the point where your limbic brain is sorting out all of those

painful emotions and it can come to a point where it can let them go. So forgiveness isn't something you're forcing, it's something that's going to naturally happen as you allow yourself to process through all the pain and anger connected to the wound. Man, it's wild. I had this thought that there's like this weird thing where it's like, Oh, this part of me is afraid to not be angry at my mother because it's the only feeling I've ever had towards her.

Yes. And if I let go of that, then I won't have any connection to her. Exactly. As a child, as an adult, I can see my mother differently, you know? And, um, you know, I love my mother and I want her to be happy. I don't want her to have to work anymore. She doesn't want to, you know, I wish she would just stop.

Can I ask you a question? So a lot of kids like you that had a mother that just couldn't connect emotionally, often the only time the mother would connect emotionally is when they were bad or when they got angry. Then mom would jump in and stop that, stop that. And they go, a little bit of connection is better than no connection. Oh, interesting.

So I'll be bad more or angry. I would find other people's, I've found other people's moms. I mean, the second like, dude, I keep going. I went to my friend Williams house like 20 times weekend. His mom's like, he's not here. I told you every time. I don't care. Like we are here.

Keep knocking just to see her look at me for a second, you know, just wild, man. The things that you'll ways, little ways you'll survive, little things you'll do. It's fascinating. The longing for love and nurture. Yeah. So it's a lot of, it's fascinating, you know,

getting to be human. Yep. It's quite a ride. Um, Tim, people can check you out online. You have so many great, so many great digestible videos, um, on YouTube. So many just well, just really awesome stuff, man. Thank you. Yeah.

Thank you so much. Um, my brother saw you and he's like, God, this guy is great. And he introduced me to you and, um, it's been cool because you're just saying things in a way that I can just, I could hear him and I, that's the hardest part. Sometimes it's so hard for us to hear things. Why? Partly for a lot of people, because of shame is I don't want to stop and look honestly at myself because it might be too painful and overwhelming and I don't want to stop and look honestly at myself because it might be too painful and overwhelming and I don't want to go there.

So there's so many defense layers that you have to get by before you're even open to. Yeah. And so a lot of my years of kind of learning how to teach this stuff is how do I get by that defense layer, how do I get by that defense layer? How do I make by that defense layer? How do I get by that defense layer?

How do I make people feel safe to challenge that area of their life and not feel that they're bad because they're doing that. Man, it is quite a Rubik's cube. We're complex, huh? Oh, I know. What I'd be fascinated by is just kind of what response you get.

Yeah. Cause I think that's going to tell us a lot about what we could do differently, whether we need to add some other podcasts with more focused information. On specific stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious about that too.

I think, cause I know you have so many, like, you know, there was a, like shame we touched on, which I think was important. I know that there's a, like shame we touched on, which I think was important. I know that there's a ton of stuff about guilt. Um, you just, there's so many little universes. Codependency. Oh God.

I can't even. Boundaries. Um, codependency for sure. For sure. As soon as you get in the relationship stuff, then it's just like everybody's ears per cup. But I think that we try, I think we gave, I think we touched on some, a good understanding though, right?

Yeah. Of complex trauma, people can understand maybe that they could have some things that they didn't realize, but also that you don't have to be a victim, not everybody has to have complex trauma. Yeah. Um, you could have had just simple trauma.

That was just one thing or some instances,, you could have had just simple trauma. That was just one thing or some instances, but you could have also had good parenting that was there to help you process it or somebody, even if it wasn't a parent that could also be there as a fixture to help you process. Exactly. Um, yeah.

And I think your bits of your personal story just filled in a lot of that for people. Um, and I think to me, the big picture is everybody needs to learn not necessarily all the trauma stuff, but what does it mean to be healthy? That's what a child is supposed to be learning as they're growing up.

Yeah. And even if you had pretty good parents, we all still could learn more about fine tuning, being healthy. And that's really what I try to do a lot of is yes, to find the trauma in great detail and the ramifications, but really to define what does healthy look like.

Yeah. Yeah. And to, if you never thought about this, to maybe say, oh, some of that, that could be something I should look at more. I heard something that made me think or feel something that, that is good clues. A lot of times I couldn't get a clue until I felt it would have to be a very strong feeling. And then that would be a clue. Um, but yeah, I think, uh, yeah, it's important, man. It's important for people. And yeah, it's important, you. It's important for people and yeah, it's important.

It's not important to sit there and dwell and swim in the shit. Like I'm a otter. I have to remember that. But it's important to sit on the side of the bank and look at the water, I think. And see what's caused some of the ripples. And see where there's some waves and see where things are clear and nice. Um, so cool, man.

It's been a wonderful experience. Yeah, Tim. Thanks, bro. I appreciate it, dude. We got to get back up there to Windsor. You've been there? Yeah. My tour manager. At Caesars or? It's from there. Yeah, over there at Caesars. It was pretty good, man. We had a nice time over there. And, uh.

And then did you go across to Detroit as well? Nope. Oh, just did the Windsor. Yeah, we did Windsor and then we went over there to Lake, uh, Lake of the, no, uh, Niagara, Niagara. Yeah, Niagara Falls. And then, um, we went somewhere else too. I can't remember where it was.

It's Toronto's right up in there. We had a great time. Huh? Good. Beautiful of it. Air. Yeah. Canada's great.

Yeah. We're grateful that you are part of North America. I want to let you know that. I'm grateful too. There you go. All right, Tim Fletcher. Thank you so much, brother. Thank you.

All right. Cheers, brother. Thank you. Alright, cheers brother.