Timesuck with Dan Cummins - 115 - Hatfield-McCoy Feud

Starting point is 00:00:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, go on out, get out, go on out, get out, have field McCoy feud. Yeah, murder, more murder, vigilante justice, more murder revenge killings, posse is being formed, a father losing five of his children's lives to another family's violence, a stolen hog, a family home burn to the ground by an angry mob, government corruption for bidding love affairs, a lot of drama in today's tale. The Hatfields and the McCoy's repeatedly attacked one another in the rural tug river valley separating West Virginia and Kentucky for over a decade in the late 19th century.

Starting point is 00:00:33 Two patriarchs, devilans, Hatfield and old Randall McCoy, let their hatred of one another infect first their entire families and then an entire region of the country, governor, pitted against governor, West Virginia versus Kentucky, the Supreme Court of the United States would end up getting involved. The feud in general would last for many decades. So how did it all start? How did it finally end? And how much blood was shed in between the origins and the dirty deeds of America's most revealed today on Time Suck. Happy Monday, time suckers. Hail Nimrod, Hail Lucid Fina,

Starting point is 00:01:17 Praise Bojangles, Hail Triple M. Dan Cummins, the master sucker and you are listening to Time Suck record in the Suck dungeon. Today in Coralene, Idaho, Reverend Dr. Joe, mother fucking paisley. Hope you loved him on last week's special guest edition of it. It's of the internet. He did some, did some magic today too.

Starting point is 00:01:35 We had some tech problems recording this episode the day before Thanksgiving. It was looking rough, but Joe, he figured out some wizard trick from some wizard forum. And he got us going. Hope you all had a wonderful Thanksgiving. I know I did. Record this again beforehand. Or I'm sorry, I hope I did. How would I know I did? I haven't had it yet. What am I talking about? Time. Get's confusing here sometimes, recording episodes in advance. It's just going to be Lindsay and I and Penny and Ginger. You know, this past Thanksgiving and I'm guessing we were able to relax a lot. I know in this moment that I record this, I'm very much looking forward to that, just chilling out for a couple days. And just for being thankful, man, super thankful for this little world and how far

Starting point is 00:02:18 it's come since we started and all of your guys have support, like very, very thankful. It's just so many little cool things. I was coming back from Grand Rapids this past week and just walking through the Spokane Airport and a space lizard don't know his name because he was on the other side of security glass. He was coming into the airport. I'm leaving. He's in the little TSA area

Starting point is 00:02:37 and he just mouse the words, you know, why can't you say? It's for the space lizard only. He mouseed a secret space lizard code. I knew whaters only. He mouthed a secret. Spacers are code. I knew what he said. I gave him a secret Spacers hand sign. He gave it back to me and it was a very cool moment. And I'm super thankful to have life experiences like that.

Starting point is 00:02:56 Yeah, just thankful for man that's you guys sharing this podcast with your friends and families and just seeing it grow and send know send it in stories of reconnecting with family members having something new to talk about every week reconnecting with old friends making new friends having fun with your with your lovers and your spouses and just enjoying this silly little world that we've created right just basically just try to be honest try to make it fun try not to shove either a conservative or or liberal agenda down your throat gonna just try to be honest. Try to make it fun. Try not to shove either a conservative or a liberal agenda down your throat. And just try to instill or re instill a childlike sense of wonder about the world.

Starting point is 00:03:31 It's so important, man. And it's so fun just to be like a kid that way and just be curious and excited about stuff. And just have a reverent fun with stuff. I've said it before, but it's like my grandma Betty always said you can laugh or you can cry. And I love that our community can just laugh about almost fucking anything.

Starting point is 00:03:48 It's, I think super healthy and super fun. I love you, me, sex. So thank you for giving me the most meaning, work-wise, for sure that my life has ever had. And now, let me awkwardly transition from heartwarming thanks to a blatant sales pitch. Speak, speak of meaning, there's no segue. But I want to say Cyber Monday sale,

Starting point is 00:04:12 happening now in the time sucks store. Everything in the sucks shop is 25% off using the discount code Cyber Monday 18. So Cyber Monday and then the number 18 during checkout. And it'll be a banner that says that on our store So make it real easy just You know You cannot to be combined with the spaces are 20% discount, but yet 25% off of everything and the offer is good

Starting point is 00:04:35 Through this next Sunday Sunday Sunday Coffee tumblers challenge coins hoodies beanies loose a fina sleepwear so that so many sweet teas vinyl decals, all kinds of exotic animal skins and furs and body parts, 25% at all, 25% off it all, ends at midnight Pacific time, Sunday, November seconds. We were going to start at this past Friday, Black Friday, but I messed up. I fucked up, I forgot, based on the recording schedules, when the episodes were coming out,

Starting point is 00:05:06 based compared to when I was recording them, and didn't realize last week, when I recorded that I was recording the things giving new world order episodes when I should have mentioned it there, but we're still doing it in the sale for a full week. It all ends up the same. It all comes out in the wash.

Starting point is 00:05:21 So thanks again for spreading the suck by passing around new preview videos for episodes we put on Instagram Twitter and Facebook at Time suck podcast sharing those clips tag and friends retweetin It all spreads the suck and now thank you to the street suck or this time suck street team street suck Street sucks sounds different time suck street team. There was announced in the private Facebook group a while back Some of you lovely time suckers are now spread the suck by blanketing various sections of the world with Lucifina's face, my face, other time suck artwork. I had so much response that and I know I never mentioned that on the podcast before, but that was intentional. We wanted just to mention it in the private

Starting point is 00:05:58 Facebook group first, so when people responded and we had way more interest than we had stickers, which again, another thing to be thankful for. So hopefully the three team thing goes well, people actually put the stickers that they've got around around their towns and communities and then we'll we'll buy a whole bunch more stickers and they're really cool. Danger brain did a good job on those as they do on everything and then we'll get a bunch more people involved. I just love that people were excited to be involved.

Starting point is 00:06:24 Yeah. Turns out I did have a great time in Grand Rapids, Michigan last week and holy shit. We'll get a bunch more people involved. I just love that people were excited to be involved. Yeah. Turns out I did have a great time in Grand Rap as Michigan last week and holy shit. Every show outside of Thursday was sold out most in advance. This is new territory for me. Thanks to all of you who made long drives for those shows. Thanks to Jeff and Catalan for showing up so many years in a row now.

Starting point is 00:06:42 And thanks to a few time suckers for some green medicine. Thanks to C4 in Washington for handing out some delicious edible medicine when I flew back into the spell can. The ride, it just keeps getting more fun. Yeah, C4, I'm gonna be chewing up a lot of that as I just kind of relax a little bit, get some rest over Thanksgiving weekend. I'll be at the Spokane Comedy Club.

Starting point is 00:07:03 November 29th, 30th and December 1st. Tickets really selling fast for those shows. It's so happy. Thanks to the Spokane Review for interviewing me for those shows. Look forward to that coming out. And then I'll be in St. Louis, December 6th to 9th. Rappin' up the Flat Earth Tour.

Starting point is 00:07:16 Those will be the last ones. Start at the Happy Murder Tour. Next year, I'll be posting dates for that soon. We've got most of next year booked. And then after that last St. Louis show, I'll switch gears and prep for that soon. We got most next year booked. And then after that last St. Louis show, I'll switch gears and prep for that TED Talk. TED X Talk in Cordelay into the Crocs in our January 12th. I'll have a link for that in the episode description. Very excited to think about what's gone on the last two years here and think about how to share that

Starting point is 00:07:38 in a TED Talk. So hopefully we'll inspire other people to pursue their passions and make the most out of them. Now let's get to sucking. I'm very excited. I had a lot of fun research in this. A lot of fun. I'm gonna suck a bunch of McCoy's. Gonna suck a lot of Hatfields in today's big old meat sack showdown. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ All right, the time and the place of today's tale,

Starting point is 00:08:01 factors large into the stories that always seems to. Fue to the magnitude of the Hatfields versus McCoy's wouldn't take place in America today. Today's laws, current level of media coverage would just never allow the combination of revenge killings and vigilante justice to go on for as long as it did. And yeah, sorry. And actually there weren't as many places this series of events could have unfolded elsewhere in Mid to late 19th century America either Life was just different in the tug river valley than it was for for much of the nation

Starting point is 00:08:33 Dentistry was frowned upon clothing was optional eyes were beady Many folks walked on four legs instead of two dogs weren't just pet state They doubled as actual legal brides for for many valley residents A local pastor saw what was inevitable and thought if he couldn't stop his bombable unions uh... he might as he might as well make official in the eyes of god hogs weren't just for loving neither uh... many hogs actually help provide for their human families taken a farming logging

Starting point is 00:08:57 uh... fur trapping up jobs put food on their tables the line between animal and man became uh... blurred and then legend has it uh... it actually merged and and new races of Hog folk and dog folk were brought into the world in the tug river valley and and those hog folk became known as the Hatfields and those dog folk became known as the McCoy's and everybody knows the dog folk don't mix no hog folk Now's how to few got going. Yeah, yeah Sorry life wasn't that different in the Valley. And again, I wonder what the people upstairs

Starting point is 00:09:30 think of the noises they hear from the suck, don't you? The Valley where the famous Hatfield McCoy feud took place was nestled into the rural mountainous region of Appalachia, nailed it. Appalachia, that's not how they say it on the pronunciation guides. But I learned, I learned last time we were in this region of the country that if you are from Appalachia, that's not how they say it on the pronunciation guides. But I learned, I learned last time we were in this region of the country that if you are from Appalachia, you don't say Appalachia.

Starting point is 00:09:50 That's how you know you ain't no hog folk, you ain't no dog folk. Go and get out here, yeah! Uh, anyway, yes, nestled in the rural region of Appalachia. At the border of Easter and Turkey and West Virginia, right on the border there was centered on the valley of the Tug 4, because the border of Easter Kentucky and West Virginia right on the border there was centered on the valley of the tug fork at the Big Old, Big Sandy River, one of the least hospitable parts of the Appalachian Highlands here. The tug fork forms both a natural and political boundary divide in the states of Kentucky and West Virginia.

Starting point is 00:10:15 However, while the river did divide the two states, it didn't divide the tug river valley community, both the Hatfields and McCoys. They had relatives on both sides of the river. The Hatfield family had its largest kind of concentration in Logan County, West Virginia, and the McCoy's were most numerous in Pike County, Kentucky, but the two clans did travel continuously back and forth between West Virginia and Kentucky, which just ended up adding to the food because they were always in contact with one another. The Tug Valley was extremely remote, one of the largest, excuse me, one of the last areas,

Starting point is 00:10:44 settled in both West Virginia and Eastern Kentucky. The first settlers, mostly of Scottish descent, Scotch Irish descent, arrived from Southwestern Virginia around 1800. And if you'll recall, from the Andrew Jackson Suck, these early scots are the origin of

Starting point is 00:11:01 both the term redneck and the term hillbilly. Quick recap of the origins of those two terms. The term redneck comes from 16th century Scotland when Presbyterian rebels rose up against the Church of England, sign manifestos in their own blood, hardcore, then wore red clothes around their necks to signify the rebellion during the bishops war of 1640 in Scotland. The term hillbilly comes from the term hillfolk scots from the highlands of scotland were called hillfolk and then during another war the sixteen hundred of the scots who uh... supported

Starting point is 00:11:31 king william of england were called billy boys after after their patron king you know william king billy uh... hillfolk who were uh... called billy boys were then called hill billy boys which eventually was shortened to hillbillies and that name followed them to colonial America. And then both the terms redneck and Hillbilly became, you know, derogatory racial slurs essentially synonymous with rough, rugged, ignorant, rural folk, quick to fight, maybe

Starting point is 00:11:55 slow to take up a reading and a rotten and arithmetic. And the tug river valley elements of this derogatory description actually did fit for many. And I say that as someone with a Scottish a Scottish last name of Cummins and over 60% British and Irish Isle Andrews ancestry. A lot of my ancestors were probably some of these rough rugged and uneducated people. Education, it was just hard to come by in the valley. There were a few school houses in the region, but kids only attended school for three months

Starting point is 00:12:20 out of the year, most strapped out entirely after only a couple years and the majority of people in the tug valley were illiterate. Throughout the early 19th century, this region remained extremely isolated with frontier conditions persisting there, even as the rest of the region around them progressed and developed. The area also suffered from extreme income inequality. Most of the land was owned by a small percentage of the population. And some Eastern Kentucky counties up to 74% of the population was landless, a minority population of back country elite dominated extremely corrupt local politics. And the Hatfields and the McCoys, they belong to this back country elite, the patriarchs

Starting point is 00:12:58 of each family were landowners and kept a considerable number of livestock. They held similar social and economic standing. The Hatfields were better off. It would actually end up becoming quite a bit better off, but during the few, just a little clip up above the McCoy's, but both clans were well off for West Virginia, kind of tug river valley standards. They both had numerous family members serving in local politics

Starting point is 00:13:25 and the judiciary system in both Kentucky and West Virginia. And again, Hatfields would have an advantage. There was seem to be more of them. They seem to have more prestigious positions around the community. But both of them had some pull. Hatfields and McCoys occasionally enter married over the years and they're intertwined social, you know, familial, political relationships created a complex network of allegiances that would make the feud more complicated add to the violence. Another important point to make before we get into the timeline of the Hatfield, McCoy feud is that feuds were not unusual in this area at this time. No less than six major feuds took place in the Kentucky side of the tug fork of the Sandy

Starting point is 00:14:01 River and the wake of the Civil War. And additional feuds also took place nearby Perry and Rowan counties. A lot of these were partly due to conflicting loyalties in the area during the Civil War. Then afterwards, both West Virginia and Kentucky struggled with union and Confederate loyalty. West Virginia was formed when a total of 50 counties chose to secede from Confederate Virginia and form a new union estate officially admitted to the union in 1863. However, some West Virginia residents, including the Hatfields, still had Confederate loyalty,

Starting point is 00:14:33 still had Confederate sympathies and took it as a sign of treason if one of their own supported the union. And these feuds were also partly due to the clannish hillbillies of this area acting like clannish hillbillies of this area acting like clannish hillbillies, the Scotch Irishness area, the other poor rural whites were notoriously clannish. Just like, you know, the courts after the Civil War did not protect African Americans, equal to white Americans, they also didn't protect all white Americans equally in the racial pecking order of white America at this time. You know, hillbillies were at the bottom.

Starting point is 00:15:03 These Scotch Irish were at the bottom, Many found strengths and numbers due to their rural backwoods kind of living situations. The law wasn't always easy to find. You know, it was often very corrupt and these families would take it upon themselves to dull out and seek justice. And the combination of clans, vigilanteism, that's a perfect, you know, kind of environment for feuds. Most of the feuds, manifestations of power struggles between prominent local families like the Hatfields and McCoy's, product of competition for land, wealth, and power, just like countries. Same motivation

Starting point is 00:15:35 for countries fighting with another. A lot of those trickle down to these feuds, and just one family wanting more power, more land, more wealth. Sometimes trying to take it from another family. Finally, this few took place directly on a state line. The majority of the half-fills, as we said, lived on the West Virginia side of the tug fork and the majority of the McCoy's, on the Kentucky side.

Starting point is 00:15:57 And if you'll recall, from way back in the Bonnie and Clyde Suck, if you were an outlaw in the early 20th century, crossing state lines often gave you the chance to escape authorities and starting your life. You felt a little boulder to go break some laws in a nearby state because you could go back to, you know, you could go to a different state and get away with it. This was even more true in the late 19th century. The federal government, not as strong as it is today, especially when it came to law enforcement.

Starting point is 00:16:22 And you know, one state was usually extremely reluctant to push into another state to apprehend a criminal. And if they did do that, local government in that state could and would often push back against the other state's officers, maybe not recognize them as being law officers, recognize them as trespassers. So in some ways, the different states were almost like different countries. So now that we understand a little bit about the context, let's take some broad strokes to the two biggest players by far in today's tale, the patriarchs of the Hatfield and McCoy

Starting point is 00:16:53 clans. Maybe the most important character in the feud is Devaland's Hatfield. Half pig, half man, head of the hogs folk, everybody know hogs folk don't take no guff for no dog folk. Uh, sorry, leader of the Hatfield clan, patriarch of one half of the infamous, infamous feud, born William Anderson Hatfield in 1839, devil lands Hatfield grew up in what is now Logan County West Virginia, born and raised in the tug river valley, uh, sired in West Virginia, weaned from his mama's sweet tates, right there in Nevada. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:17:26 Hatfields, or some of the first settlers in the region, and the river serves as the boundary between Kentucky and Virginia. One of the 18 children born to Ephraim and Nancy Hatfield, Debalans Hatfield, and sorry if I keep repeating some of these details. There's so many characters in today's tale. I kept just having to do like mental recaps to remind myself of what in the hell is happening. It was become more important as the story goes on. But yeah, devil is one of 18 kids born to Ephraim, Nancy Hadfield, known to be an excellent marksman and horse rider. Yeah, 18 kids, 18 kids. Sweet Jesus,

Starting point is 00:18:02 his poor, poor mother. I'm surprised more women didn't kill their husbands back then. You're gonna hear about a lot more women having a lot more kids. Yeah, that's just a ridiculous amount of pregnancy. I told him to not put his seed in me no more. I told him I said, Robert, Bob, it's my callister. I'm Fitzgerald. You take that devil stick and you spit your baby potion on that day of flow. I've been pregnant for 14 in my 27 years on this year's Earth.

Starting point is 00:18:25 I'm having a little look, look like an old witch lost a fight with a bear. And he went to mount me in his house and that's when I shot my husband, dumb dead. I was said that young William Hatfield was so strong and fierce that he could take on the devil himself, which is supposedly where his devil nickname may have come from. Another rumor regarding his nickname is revolves around him fighting off a mountain lion with his bare hands as a youth tougher than his devil nickname may have come from. Another rumor regarding his nickname is revolves around him fighting off a mountain line with

Starting point is 00:18:47 his bare hands as a youth tougher than the devil. In 1861, this devil Hatfield married a Levi C. Schaeffen, daughter of neighboring farmer, and right after marrying her, off to Civil War, he goes. Fighting on the side of the Confederacy, he hit it up a local Confederacy. Confederacy supporting militia known as the Logan Wildcats with his uncle Jim Vance. Jim known locally as crazy Jim. After the war ended, Hatfield settled down with Levi C turned to farming, cutting timber by and real estate, having bear cubs for pets seriously and pumping out 13 kids. Devil ants. I told I don't tell you spill yourill your seed outside of me,

Starting point is 00:19:26 pregnant again, you bastard. I'll have any more babies. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna let them fall out. We only have to push and fall out of my poor woman holder, won't close. Baby's gonna fall out while I'm walking over to spit on your grave. Ambitious and aggressive.

Starting point is 00:19:40 Hatfield created one of the most successful timber businesses in the area, vigorously defending it. Eventually taking a man to court because he reportedly cut timber from Hatfield created one of the most successful timber businesses in the area vigorously defending it Eventually taken a man to court because he reportedly cut timber from Hatfield lands This man was Perry Klein. He'll factor into today's tale Hatfield won his suit against Perry Klein And Perry Klein would later bring national attention to the feud Perry Klein is a relative by marriage and friend and then attorney to the McCoy's to Randolph Randle McCoy devilans is future nemesis this core victory devilans had over Perry ended up giving the devil

Starting point is 00:20:17 5,000 acres of Perry's land making him one of the biggest if not the biggest landowners in the valley So that's devilans powerful landowner especially For this for this area important patriarch of the Hatfield side of the feud and tough as shit. You know, maybe he did fight off the mountain line when he was a kid, maybe he didn't, but by the end of the story, it, it, it, it, it, it'll seem like a man capable of doing that. So let's talk about his nemesis Randall McCoy. Headed to dogfolk.

Starting point is 00:20:39 Oh, born Randolph McCoy in 1825. And by the way, if you get confused, they were never referred to as dogfolk and hogfolk. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Randall later sometime is known as Old Randall born 14 years prior to devilans. He was one of 13 kids Because apparently back then you had to have at least 13 kids Thank you scientists for birth control Thank you for vasectomies. Thank you for dismantling my balls preventing me from from placing the curse of having far too many kids upon myself McCoy grew up in poverty. His father, Daniel, had little interest in work.

Starting point is 00:21:26 So his mother, Margaret, had to struggle to care for her feed and close the family. 1849 McCoy married his first cousin, Sarah Sally McCoy. Dog folk, Marin Dog folk. Won't do know how having some hog folk taint in the bloodlines like Mama Anto, daddy, grandpa, uncle. Don't poke your flesh inside no one who ain't can.

Starting point is 00:22:09 Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding even Einstein married his first, if you'll actually recall Einstein, Elsa Einstein, Albert, his, Albert, I would say his second wife was Albert's first cousin on his mother's side and second cousin on his father's side, double cousins. So I guess what I'm trying to say is random a coy was probably genius. Sally and Herod had land from her father a few years after they married, lucky for Rano, and then they settled on this 300 acre spread in Pike County, Kentucky where they had 17 kids together, 17 kids. Before eventually Sally wised up and put a mouse trap inside her vagina. You're like, oh, damn you scaming woman. You broke my damn peck. You damn near snap it in two with your mouse trap, which trickery.

Starting point is 00:22:44 I'm honestly surprised that anal sex wasn't way more popular back then like like maybe initially in your marriage as a lady A lady of the tug of a valley. You don't have any interest in anal sex But then I think like after the twelfth kid I Would think you would consider it. I'm surprised some more women were just like okay, okay If you if you have to keep putting that somewhere, you put it back there. You put it in my, you put it in my back, Dova, Janna. You know, but if nine minutes later, I give birth to some butt baby, Damon, I will kill

Starting point is 00:23:16 you, Randall McCaw. And I meant to say nine minutes. I feel like the gestation period for a demon butt baby would be shorter than for a human baby. Anyway, enough about butt babies. There's no war. It's never enough actually about butt babies. I can talk about butt babies all day long.

Starting point is 00:23:31 During the civil war though, McCoy served as a soldier for the Confederacy as well. He may have actually served in that same local militia as devilans, as later nemesis. While most of the McCoy's support of the Confederacy, Randall's brother, A's a harman McCoy, fought for the Union side. And this is important to note because his death would kind of be the start of the feud. At least, you know, get brought up later, as far as some bad blood. Aiza, because when Aiza returned home, he hit out in a K for some time. He was ostracized from his community for supporting the Union, but he couldn't hide, you know,

Starting point is 00:24:02 for ever in 1865, he was shot and killed by someone who objected to his union sympathies, is what is believed. It's thought that either devilance hat failed or his fellow Confederate leader and crazy ass uncle, crazy gym vans murdered this McCoy for being essentially a union sympathizer. And even though, you know, as a harming had been ostrized from the McCoy family, you know, some historians think this killing again was the start of the bad blood because even though they're not speaking to him,

Starting point is 00:24:30 he is still family. Okay, so now we know a little bit about background, rural area, back with justice as a norm, clans are the norm, poverty is ripe, ignorance is rampant, two large families, you know, they've been kicking out a shit to hunt the kids in the tug river valley for a couple generations. One on the Kentucky side of the river, one on the West Virginia side, petty, normal

Starting point is 00:24:51 rivalries between the two probably have been going on for years. And then devilans, you know, Hatfield, taking a McCoy relation to court for logging on his land and he won. So he got some land from the McCoy's and around about way. Then Hatfield relations rumored to have killed a McCoy in 1865 for being a union sympathizer, bad blood, start and develop. And then 13 years after the death of Aiza Harman McCoy, the feud begins in earnest with of all things, the theft of a hog. So let's hop into today's time-stocks timeline right after an important word from today's first sponsor.

Starting point is 00:25:26 Let's get right into time suck being brought to you today once again by the A whole air banjo academy. The A whole air banjo academy is sponsoring their first annual tug river valley bluegrass festival the entire month of August 2019. The festival will feature performances from legendary Air Banjo Bluegrass group, the Piney Pluckers. Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, The festival will also feature performances from Nirvana Bluegrass Tribute Band, Air Never Mind. BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank bank Do you wake up feeling achy, easily distracted, forgetful? Do you wake up thinking, I should get my family gathered together, tomorrow, and attack those damn troublesome neighbor folk.

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Starting point is 00:29:04 Fall at 1878. A hog. Hogh! A real hog gets stolen. Maybe we think. It's common practice for families to let their hogs roam the woods around their properties for a corn and beach nuts. Inch family would mark their particular hog with a notch or mark and a tear.

Starting point is 00:29:21 The animals would then be easily recognizable and identified and they could be rounded up again. And in an autumn of 1878, Randall McCoy, leader of the McCoys, visiting Floyd Hatfield, cousin of Devilans in his farm, and there Randall claimed he saw a hog bearing the earmark of McCoy, penned up with the Hatfield animals. Ooh, I see what you're doing. Randall notoriously hot tempered, immediately accuses Floyd Hatfield of stealing one of his animals, files a formal suit for the hogs recovery

Starting point is 00:29:48 with Reverend Anderson Hatfield, the local justice of the peace, and a man who happens to be devilans his first cousin. The matter goes to trial, and an attempt to keep the verdict fair, Anderson Hatfield selected jury made up of six Hatfields, and six McCoy's. And then Bill Stanton,

Starting point is 00:30:03 nephew of Randall McCoy, brother of Sarah Stanton, who was the wife of Ellison Hatfield, sister-in-law of Devillands, testified that the Hogan question did indeed bear a Hatfield mark. And he said he'd personally witness Floyd Hatfield applying that mark. And damn conflicting family loyalties all that he didn't know which way, he didn't know which way to To switch side to be on that's why a dark vote in supposed to mayor Hawk folk Now you got some man connected to both families bound to piss off Keon on one side another if you open his full mouth

Starting point is 00:30:38 And surprise verdict the jury found Floyd half-filled innocent of any wrongdoing because sell Kirk McCoy a cousin of Randall Apparently gave the swing vote for innocence. Oh, you done didn't know have failed innocent of any wrongdoing because sell Kirk McCoy a cousin of Randall apparently gave the swing vote for innocence. Oh, you done did it now. You betrayed your bloodline. The McCoy's were outraged at the verdict and subsequently ostracized sell Kirk from the family. He's out now as a traitor for supporting the Hatfields in the decision.

Starting point is 00:30:59 And then he would just be aligned with the Hatfield clan in the future. I mean, these people were serious about man like so clannish. You know, you fight on what side of the, the Civil War that our families decided to fight. You testify only on our behalf always. You don't, you'll find out later, you know, in this story that you don't date anybody from their side. You do any of those things, you're fucking out for life. You're out of our family. That is so hardcore. I'll never understand something like that. Like, there's people I don't like in the world, you know,

Starting point is 00:31:26 but if Kyler and Ro got involved with them, I wouldn't be like, you make your decision now, boy. You're with the Cummins clan. Or you are dead to me forever. If people do, you should like that all the time back then. Okay, so Silkerk, yeah, he broke one of the first rules, Speed and the clan, Testifying, Testifying against his own kind. And the month's following the hog draw, speedin' the clan, testifying against his own kind. And the month's fall in the hog draw,

Starting point is 00:31:45 hog theft, witness Bill Stanton. Now he's harassed and threatened by the McCoys for testifying on the behalf of Floyd Hath, I remember he's vaguely related to the McCoys, but they're like, ah, man, you testified against us. You couldn't keep your mouth shut. Now there's crazy confrontations between him and various McCoys that included gunfire.

Starting point is 00:32:04 He was once there, once the mall he was's riding around through the valley, getting fucking shot at because he opened his mouth about a hog. But no serious harm was done initially, just valuable as being valuable as just shooting to one another. That's just how we settle out disagreements. And television, a chance encounter between Bill Stanton and Sam and Paris McCoy, brothers of old Randall McCoy leads to a shootout ending in the serious wounding of Paris McCoy and in the murder of Bill Stanton.

Starting point is 00:32:32 So now he gets killed for opening his mouth about the about the hawk. You try to testify now, Bill. You try to testify against all kin from hell. You have to feel stooge. Sam McCoy stands trial for Stanton's murder, and although the evidence in judicial system seemed very stacked against him, it seems very obvious that he did this. And also, you know, devilans own brother, Valentin Hatfield is now the judge in this trial. So I got a cousin presiding, first cousin presiding in the last trial,

Starting point is 00:33:00 over the last trial. Now his brother is presiding as judged in this trial. But still, Sam found not guilty by reason of self-defense. And some historians think this decision was handed down per the explicit instructions of devilans to diffuse tension between the two families and prevent further violence. You know, it's like, yes, yes, you know, he, okay, one of our kind was killed, but our kind did provoke him. Let's stop it now. Let's get back to making a timble money. Well, in spring 1880, some forbidden hog folk dog folk romance gets the feud going again. That's actually a whole heap of fire to the whole heap of fuel to the fire. Pike County held their local elections at the home of Jerry Hatfield that spring.

Starting point is 00:33:41 Not not sure how Jerry is related to double ends. There was a fucking billion Hatfields in McCoy's in this tale. And, you know, the, the article is about, about all these different situations. Don't always talk about how like some random person was related to the next. They had the same last name, guessing his cousin of some sort. So, yeah. So, uh, they host the election to the home of Jerry Hatfield. Uh, him hosting election, Shindig seems to be his only contribution to the legend this few to the end of the come up again and it was common for it for the home of a wealthy person to be used as a local polling place elections were

Starting point is 00:34:13 big social events more social than they were political at this time in this area uh... when we make all kinds of food refreshments candidates would supply ample amounts of whiskey uh... both of uh of legal whiskey and of the moonshine variety. Both the Hatfields and the McCoys were fond of making moonshine. John Z. Hatfield won a devilans of sun, was a big moonshine maker in the area.

Starting point is 00:34:36 People would come out early, the men would vote, and then the the fan would spend an entire day socializing with their peers. And on this election day, the West Virginia Hatfields also come over to Pike County to visit their Kentucky can visit some friends, drink some moonshot. Devil Lance himself shows up with his sons, John Z and Cap. And it was during the course of the day that John Z, a notorious local ladies man meets Rose Anna McCoy, daughter of old random McCoy, considered to be one of the most beautiful girls in the county. Oh, shit. Got a Got a classic

Starting point is 00:35:05 backwards Romeo and Juliet situation kicking off now. Star cross hillbillies. John's a Montague pursuant Rosanna Capulet. Uh, didn't end well for Romeo and Juliet and their families and you can imagine it will not end well here. Done clear exactly what transpired between them, but after spending the day together, they disappeared from the party for a good amount of time, only returning at dusk. So I'm guessing they did it. Strongly guessing they did it. Hale is the phoenix.

Starting point is 00:35:30 I'd say Vegas odds says that a Hatfield penis shook Kahnohans with a Makoava janna that day. A doubt they took off into the woods, you know, to get away from the wedding party for hours to play a secret game of chess or to do some some catfish fishing. Rosanna was anxious that the thought of facing her dad after disappearing with a Hatfield boy for hours. Especially, yeah, she's an unwed virgin and she may have tainted it, tainted herself with this Hatfield boy.

Starting point is 00:35:58 So instead of returning to her family home, she goes back to the Hatfields, goes back to West Virginia, Spends night there. And then John D expresses his desire to marry Rosanna and devilans forbids it. He's not having it. He's furious. And then word gets back to old Randall McCoy. He's furious as well.

Starting point is 00:36:14 This Hatfield boy stalled in his family's honor. Randall even sent three of his other daughters to retrieve Rosanna initially, but then she defied her family's wishes, remained with the Hatfieldels for several months. Seems she only left when it became clear that John Z had no real intention of marrying her because his family forbidden is what most historians think. Other historians attribute this to John Z being a notorious playboy.

Starting point is 00:36:36 Despite the strong objections to both families, John Z continues to court Rosanna at the house of her aunt Betty Blankenship,oy and Kentucky after she returns to Kentucky, you know, and raging the McCoy's further. Also, it's possible there's no official documentation of this, but some historians think that Rosanna became pregnant with John Z. Baby, O'Rannell and three of his sons. They ambush John Z and Rosanna one night during one of their little lovers get together. I'm going to teach John Z a lesson. Rosanna fear that her dad is going to kill John Z. Barles a horse from a neighbor rides to us for Virginia to tell the Hatfield what's going

Starting point is 00:37:11 on. Doesn't want her her dad to kill the man she loves. Devil Lance is son cap is brothers, Ellison and Elias along with Uncle Jim fans crazy Uncle Jim and family friends Tom Chambers and Moses Christian ride off to reclaim John Z and they overtake them a coyes rescue John Z without any violence at this time. This does mark the end of the relationship between John Z and Rosanna and also marks the end of Rosanna's relationship with her father Randall who now completely disowned her. Uh, oh, John Z John Z where fall out that John Z did not a father and refuse our name

Starting point is 00:37:43 or if that will not be but sworn my love and I'll no longer be a dogfolk, Makoa. Shall I hear more? Shall I speak at this? But that name that is my enemy, thou ought to self thou not a hogfolk hatfield. Starcross lovers. Beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, beng, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling,

Starting point is 00:38:08 bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling, bling A is a harman McCoy, that guy that union sympathizer, and then they get married on May 14th, 1881. Oh man, so many constant interconnections here. And I'm going to repeat family, like how they're related, because if not, this story gets real fucking confusing real fast. Harman, again, the union soldier disowned by his McCoy family, rumor to have been killed by Uncle Jim Vance, rumor to have been killed by the devil and himself. And now that guy's daughter is marrying the devil and his son.

Starting point is 00:38:50 Now, if you're wondering why John Z would be so foolish to be fair to him, there was not a tremendous amount of single women in the area, even less that weren't closely related to him. And while cousin love and clearly that forbidden forbidden also not necessarily your first choice. So so maybe he kept chasing McCoy women because there just weren't that many other options or going back to educational levels in the area. Maybe he really was just fucking down. Despite all this romantic drama, things settle down following John C's wedding for a little

Starting point is 00:39:17 over a year. Nancy's brother Jeff is frequently crossing into West Virginia now to visit his sister and her Hatfield family for a while without issue. The Hatfield spent in the decent amount of time in Pikes County with no trouble and no big trouble. And then the relative peace will end on another election day, August 7, 1882. This election also held at the home of Jerry Hatfield.

Starting point is 00:39:42 So I guess he reappears in the story in a sense his house is used to get. And the West Virginia Hatfields again cross the river to visit their family and enjoy the festivities. Among the West Virginia contingent, this time is devilans as brother Ellison and Elias and their cousin, another Elias, bad Elias Hatfield, bad Elias and devilans. You don't get nicknames like that

Starting point is 00:40:03 for being the friendliest, most hospitable fellows in the region. I wonder how many other like, you know, bad Hatfield nicknames have been lost to history. I wish I had a whole list of all of them. I'm devilanes and this is my cousin, Bad Lies. And this is my other, this is my other kin, this is my uncle, Crazy Jim.

Starting point is 00:40:20 This is my brother here. This is evil, Ellison. This is my nephew here. This is evil, Ellison. This is my nephew here. This is Strangland Sam. I'd also like to introduce you to my second cousin, Terrible Timmy. My second cousin wants to remove. This is rapin' Ricky.

Starting point is 00:40:36 Don't stand too close to him. This is my brother, Throat Punch and Paul. I keep yying him as well. He's trouble some. This is my third cousin twice removed. Scoop your eye out with the rusted spoon Eat it in front of you pop it like a rope scraping between his teeth parents and he insists I will I cannot emphasize this enough he insists on being addressed by his full nickname

Starting point is 00:40:58 You will say it in its entirety or he will display to you exactly how he got that nickname Tati or he will display to you exactly how he got that nickname. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, as the nickname suggests, bad liars had a reputation for his hot temper, bad disposition. After long day drinking at this election party, one of one of old Randall's many sons, Tolbert McCoy, accuses bad liars of own him and upstanding debt for a fiddle. Of course, it for a fiddle. Of course, it's a fiddle.

Starting point is 00:41:30 Only thing better would be a banjo in this story, which bad liest vehemently denies and argument breaks out quickly settled by bad liest is more even tempered brother Deacon Anderson Hatfield, right, that judge despite efforts to keep the peace arguments continue throughout the day until a passing comment from Ellison, to Tolbert, sparks another fight right now we got a hat filled up with the McCoy fight happen a little fist fight starts off as a fist fight and then tobert takes out a knife attacks Ellison with it and slashes open his stomach these people are fucking animals knife to the stomach over a possible fiddle debt that's about the most backwards

Starting point is 00:42:03 type of squal I've ever heard of. Damn you savein' half fo half feels I done told you I get my fiddle nickels. I'll open up your damn hog guts. I will spill your half feel hog guts all over this here mud if you don't give him my fiddle nickels. When Ellison fights back two of Tolbert's brothers join in. Now it's three on one. Ellison's been attacked by three McCoy's. I'm sure everyone just sitting around laughing watching this drink as a moonshine.

Starting point is 00:42:28 Alison grabs a rock to defend himself and then ends up getting stabbed 26 fucking times. 26 times and then gets finished off when a farmer McCoy shoots him in the back, farmer another son of, of old Randall. So should escalates big time. Uh, now Elias bad lias hatfield grabs the gun, tries to return fire, you know shoots at the McCoy brother, but they take off into the woods. Can't get a shot off or can't get an effective shot off. But then they do get captured shortly thereafter by two justes of the peace. Joseph and Tolbert Hatfield and Constable Matthew Hatfield. So many fucking Hatfields. Feels like there's about a thousand Hatfields in the tug of her valley.

Starting point is 00:43:09 The bullet wounds Ellison gravely. It does not kill him right away. And he's taken to a friend's home. The West Virginia Hatfields, notify the assault, Valentin Wall Hatfield, Ellison's brother resembles a posse. The head to Kentucky the next day, find those dirty dogfolk McCoys, exact some righteous you know, vengeance upon them. The following day in August 8th, the Hatfield Posse on the way to Pikesville receives words

Starting point is 00:43:29 and McCoy brothers have been arrested by local authorities. So which is confusing to me. Yeah, so I guess he's just as the peace were related to them. Oh man, and I have gone over this so many times to try and separate the families. There's so anyway, I guess what's important in this little segment of the tale is whether or not these, well, these, these, uh, local law officers were Hatfields or not. Local law officers get them. But then some, some Hatfields, possibly some other Hatfields think like, no, we don't want this to go through the court. They form a posse, they get these three McCoy sons and some vigilante kind of take down,

Starting point is 00:44:09 right? And then they take them back to one of their homes. So they take them, take custody of them. They have them in West Virginia. They put them actually in an abandoned log schoolhouse. There we go under armed guard. And then that night Randall's wife, the boy's mother Sarah McCoy, her daughter-in-law Mary Butcher arrived, begged to see their kin. Devilance relents, the women get

Starting point is 00:44:32 to spend a fair amount of time with them. McCoy boys, supposedly Sarah pleads with Devilance not to kill her sons. He promises her he will return them to Kentucky soil alive. But then the following day, August 9, Devil Anz's brother Ellison dies and Devil Anz is in rage. He's grieving. He decides he is not going to return in Sarah's voice to her, not after killing his brother. She returns again to see her son. She is denied that the McCoy prisoners are bound and marched to the tug fork where they crossed the river. They're returned to Kentucky soil, uh, where the Hatfields, some Hatfields, timed to some bushes, crossed the creek to go back to the west of Virginia side, and then from across the creek, open fire on the bound prisoners, uh,

Starting point is 00:45:14 fire well over 50 shots. They're, they're, you know, very dead. The bodies of Tolbert, farmer, and Bud McCoy, then discovered in the river bank the next day by relative. Yeah, and if any of these points, I have to do a little bit like, wait, what? There's a lot of... A lot of tales out there about these guys, and it's a very fused and can tale even when you do get down to the truth.

Starting point is 00:45:37 And yeah, it takes a lot of like, wait, what? I have to be very clear, wait, wait, what am I saying now? So if you're keeping track, let's do a recap, because this shit is getting confusing. If you're keeping track of significant hostilities, let's go over the important points before we move forward in this tale. Aiza Harmon McCoy thought to have been killed by some Hatfields likely by either Devilance or Crazy Uncle Jim Vance in 1865. And Aiza Harmon McCoy is Randall McCoy, old Randall, head of the McCoy clan, it's his brother, the brother that was ostracized by the family for being a union soldier.

Starting point is 00:46:09 That's 1865. 1878 Randall McCoy accuses Floyd Hatfield, cousin of devilance of stealing one of his hogs. Floyd found innocent, but the trial may not have been that fair. A shootout over the hog dispute a few months later leads to Paris, McCoy, son of Randall getting wounded and Bill Stanton relative of both the Hatfields and the McCoys, but a man closer in community ties to the Hatfields, getting killed himself. In 1880, John Z Hatfield, one of devilands's sons hooks up in the woods with Rose Anna McCoy, one of Randall's daughters.

Starting point is 00:46:49 Randall will end up disowning her over the romance. 1881, John Z. Hatfield courts and Mary's Rose Anna's cousin Nancy McCoy, daughter of the just previously mentioned, is a Harmon McCoy. 1882, three McCoy boys stab and shoot devilans his brother, Ellison Hatfield, Posse forms leading to the, to three of Randall's nine sons, uh, Tollbert, Farmer and Bud McCoy, getting executed in a display of Hatfield vigilante justice. So so far, it seems that Randall McCoy is getting the shittiest end of the feud stick by far.

Starting point is 00:47:25 His brother, Aiza Harmon, likely killed by Hatfield, possibly by Devil Lance. Another brother, Paris, wounded in a gunfight. His daughter has, okay, yeah, my God, I have to count to keep going on this my head. Yes, another brother, Paris McCoy, yes, wounded in a gunfight. His daughter, her reputation soiled by an unmarried carnal union with the son of devalans, his nephew Bill Stanton killed in a shootout with Hatfields. Three of his sons killed by a vigilante posse led by devalans. Brother nephew three sons killed a daughter and niece seduced by Hatfield.

Starting point is 00:48:01 Five dead, one wounded, two virginities taken. Meanwhile, devil ants has lost one brother and his clan has been accused of stealing a hog. So very lopsided, hog, hog folk, a hat feels way up on dog folk McCoy's through the summer of 1882. Okay. August 10th, 1882, both Ellison Hatfield and his now dead McCoy brother, murderers are buried shortly thereafter judge George and Brown of Pike County, Kentucky, convenes a grand jury to determine the identities of the killers of the McCoy brothers after 10 days of deliberation, the jury with neither a Hatfield nor McCoy on it returns indictments against 20 men, including devolence, his brothers

Starting point is 00:48:40 wall and Elias, his sons, Cap and John Z, a number of other well-known Hatfield supporters. Those three murders just will keep coming up. The legal repercussions keep this feud going for a long time because they're just continually not brought to justice. Despite the indictments, no arrests are made in the murder of the McCoy sons in the four years afterwards from 1882 and 1886. And that goes back to what we said earlier about, you know, states being very reluctant

Starting point is 00:49:11 to pursue supposed fugitives of justice in other states. The half-fields of McCoy's would occasionally take a little pot shots of one another during this time, so the feud's still on. They still shoot each other from time to time, but no one's killed. Members of both families do continue to cross back and forth over the state line between Kentucky and West Virginia. Devilands involvement with the feud lessons. His son cap started kind of takes the reins as the leader of the Hatfield clan, at least in terms of their conflict with McCoy's. Old Randall McCoy's still bent on vengeance in the death of his

Starting point is 00:49:40 sons. He hires an attorney. He's related to by marriage that man Perry Klein, that guy that, you know, devilans got all those acres from way back when it's reprieve. And he hires Perry to represent the McCoy family in their quest for justice. Perry Klein, brother and law of the murdered Harmon McCoy, O'Rannell's brother and he clearly has a personal vendetta as well against the Hatfields. At some point during the time period, things start to go wrong in the marriage of Nancy McCoy and John Z. Hatfield. Apparently Nancy was a notorious gossip who found the details of the feud fascinating. Yeah, of course she did.

Starting point is 00:50:16 She and her sister, Mary Daniels, frequently discussed the details of the feud. This convinced the Hatfields that she was a spy, or I guess both of them were a spy, her and her sister, and that they're informing, you know, Hatfield secrets to them a cause, not trusting the women's husbands to punish them accordingly for this. This is insane. Cap Hatfield, again, won a devil and sons and Tom Wallace, the Hatfields supporter, burst into Mary's home one night, hold her husband at gunpoint and then lash first Mary, then her daughter with a cow's tail, just whip them like a couple of mules. Again, these people are fucking

Starting point is 00:50:50 savage. Cap and Tom Wallace warn the women to stay at home, mind their own business going forward. Neither do. And the story of the assault rapidly circulates throughout the community. Ah, sometime in the fall of 1886, Nancy and Mary's brother Jeff McCoy stabs and then shoots a Pike County male carrier named Fred Wolford. Jeff is John Z. Hatfield's wife's brother son of Aza Harmon McCoy. Jeff flees Kentucky to Nancy's home in West Virginia to hide out from the law. And there he learns about Mary and her daughter getting whipped by Cap Hatfield and Tom Wallace and Jeff is outraged.

Starting point is 00:51:22 Hawk folks don't whip no dog folk. He decides to punish Hatfield associate Tom Wallace and Jeff is outraged. Hawkfolk don't whip no dogfolk. He decides to punish Hatfield associate Tom Wallace. Maybe he's a little bit hesitant to go after Cap Hatfield directly. Well, Jeff, along with an accomplice named Josiah Hurley, they wait until Cap is out of his house, then kidnap Tom Wallace, take him to jail and Pikefield, Kentucky. However, Tom Wallace manages to escape and return to Cap's house.

Starting point is 00:51:46 Jeff and Choseiah catch up to him, but after a short confrontation, they give up. And then when Cap learns about the assault on his home and Wallace being taken, he files a complaint with the local justice of the piece, his relation, who issues warrants for the arrest. That points Cap is special, Constable, how convenient. Because he gets to become a law officer, you know, so that he can serve the war in himself. So now he gets to go after McCoy somewhat legally, quasi legally. And he does arrest Jeff McCoy and Josiah Hurley, but then Jeff escapes, quote, unquote,

Starting point is 00:52:17 during transport to county jail, it dives into the tug fork, tries to swim back to Kentucky. He does make it to the river bank where then capture shoots him from across the river and he dies So another McCoy a nephew of old Randall has been shot and killed by a Hatfield hog folk Still still way up in this feud All right, in the wake of yet another killing devil ants tries to soothe the the bad blood between the two families on December 26, 1886, Day of the Christmas. Devalan's rights a letter to McCoy, attorney, Perry Klein,

Starting point is 00:52:50 assuring him that the Hatfields were very sorry for all the trouble. He would have prevented the violence if he could have. And not surprisingly, the feud continues. Yeah, I feel like we've gone way past the point of an apology letter. They're clean everything up right now, right? Just, Dearest old Randall McCoy, I profusely apologize for the death of another one of your filthy dog, Folkian. I know that the past few years have been hard on you with us hat fields continually whooping

Starting point is 00:53:19 upon you, McCoy. So severely and so consistently, sometimes our life started to feud looks like a big strong grown man fighting a tiny sickly baby. Must be hard to think about how it all took three of your boys to bring my brother down and then your boys were then killed soon full that. I hear your daughter rose in and it's still unwed. That's a pity. She was so beautiful. Now it will be hard to find a man willing to make me a lot of my son John's he's left over. Anywho sorry for my clan killing another one of your kin deepest condolences devilans hat field PS we did steal your mother fucking hog and I did kill your brother is a homin

Starting point is 00:54:00 hat feels forever. Uh probably a probably a little bit like nicer later than that one, but it still doesn't end the feud. In the spring of 1887, Jacob and Larkin McCoy, sons of Aiza Harmon, nephews of old Rannel, brothers to Nancy, Merence, Jeff, God dang man. I feel like I need to have one of those detective things, like in their war room,

Starting point is 00:54:22 where they have like all the different people on the wall and then just lots of fucking string connection, everybody. Anyway, spring of eights, 97. Jacob Larkin McCoy, sons of A's of Harmon, nephew's of Old Randall, brothers to Nancy Marion Jeff, cross the river into West Virginia to capture Cap Hatfield and Tom Wallace for the murder of their brother Jeff. The only managed apprehend Tom Wallace, taken to Pike County jail. And after a week of incarceration, he escapes, of course. People escaped all the time from jail back then. We've talked about that a lot here in the suck. And then a short time later, maybe his escape was convenient too. Maybe they wanted to let him out to get some vigilante

Starting point is 00:54:58 justice because a short time later, he's found dead in West Virginia. Identity of his killer or killers does remain unknown, but his death, like, and all likelihood caused by Jacob and Larkin McCoy, either directly or indirectly. So, so small possible victory, probable victory for the McCoy dogfolk. They didn't kill a Hatfield, but they did kill a Hatfield associate. In the summer of 1887, Simon Bolivar Buckner, running on the Democratic ticket for governor of Kentucky, McCoy family attorney Perry Klein reaches out to Buckner, promises to lend him the, the of our buckner run on the democratic ticket for governor of kentucky uh... mccoi family attorney parry kline reaches out to buckner promises to uh... lend him the the political sport of the mccoi clan not an insubstantial number of people in exchange for his intervention

Starting point is 00:55:36 in the various cases and indictments pending against the hatfield so you know he's trying to he's still pissed about that five thousand acres and he's he's trying to you know basically bribe the governor to uh uh, will help you become governor Kentucky. And then you help us squash these fucking hat fields. Uh, and Buckner is receptive to the idea. And then as elected governor of Kentucky in August 1887. So this is a win for the McCoy's.

Starting point is 00:55:58 The hat fields understandably concerned about this arrangement. They organize a local vigilante group called the Logan County regulators to defend themselves from Kentucky aggression. The regulators write a letter to Perry Klein on August 29, age 97 addressing their concerns about the state of Kentucky's possible interference in the Hatfield cases. This is a real letter this time, not my silly horse, and it does really speak to the power and just the arrogance of the Hatfields and the Valley, just their bad asterious I guess at this time. The name starts off or the letter starts off. My name is Nat Hatfield. And this is another Hatfield where I am unclear exactly how he is related to devilance. Not a lot of info on him. And nothing, no info I can find that pertains to his direct relation, probably another cousin again.

Starting point is 00:56:45 And that writes, I'm not a single individual by a good many. And we do not live on to River, but we live all over this county. We have been told by men from your county that you and your men are fixing to invade this county for the purpose of taking the Hatfield boys. And now sir, we 49 and number in present do notify you that if you come into this county to take or bother any of the Hatfields, we will follow you to hell or take your hide. And if any of the Hatfields are killed or bothered in any way, we will charge it up to you and your hide will pay the penalty.

Starting point is 00:57:20 We are not bothering you and neither are the Hatfields. And as long as you keep your hands off Logan County men, we will not do anything. But if you don't keep your hands off our men, there is not one of you. We'll be left in six months. There is present after this time, 49 of the men who regulated matters at this place a short time ago.

Starting point is 00:57:40 And we can get as many as we need in six hours. We have a habit of making one host lawyers keep their boots on and we have plenty of good strong rope left and our hangman tied a knot for you and laid it quietly away until we see what you do. We have no particular pleasure in hanging dogs, but we know you and have counted the miles and mocked the tree. At dog references real, by the way, dog folk. I made that part up, but they were called dogs.

Starting point is 00:58:10 Man, that is a very, very threatening letter. Uh, yeah, if you missed out any part of that, he is, uh, and, and no uncertain terms, letting the McCoy family turn to know if you fuck with us in any way, we will hang you till you are fucking dead and we will wipe out the McCoy clan. Perry Klein, why is he does not take this letter to the authorities? Until the autumn of 1887, the Hatham McCoy feud essentially is limited to the families, little intervention with authorities in either Pike or Logan counties, not a lot of big events transpiring. But then with the election of Governor Buckner, the feud becomes embroiled in state politics and this pushes the feud into its most violent period.

Starting point is 00:58:52 Governor Buckner keeps his promise to Perry Klein to intervene in the case against the hat. So despite the letter, you know, the governor's got to still try to pursue some kind of justice against the Hatfield. So September 10th, 1887, he makes a formal requisition to West Virginia governor, Emmanuel Wilson. Willis Wilson, that's an unfortunate name. Governor Emmanuel Willis Wilson.

Starting point is 00:59:15 Oh, Willis Wilson. Oh, Willis Wilson. For the extradition of devilans and 19 others to Kentucky, to answer for charges of Randolph McCoy's three sons being killed way back in 1882 there. You know, he's still insistent on justice for that. On September 30th, Governor Wilson denies the request on the basis of a missing affidavit from Pike County authorities on October 13th, Governor Buckner then sends the affidavit.

Starting point is 00:59:38 West Virginia's Governor Wilson is not a stupid man. He takes his time responding to Kentucky. On November 21st, he finally does write back to the Kentucky governor stating that he will, he will honor the requisition for all the parties named except for lies, Hatfield and Andrew Varney. He said, uh, neither had satisfactory, satisfactorily demonstrated that they were involved in the murders. Perry Klein then does, despite that letter, he got an earlier, does have been bench warrants issued.

Starting point is 01:00:06 Then on December 12th, the first arrest is made, sell Kirk McCoy, that deciding juror back in that hog case is arrested, is jailed. The next day, Klein sends an amended requisition to governor Wilson Request. He only the warrants for devillands, John Z. Cap, Daniel Witton, Albert McCoy, son of Silkirk, so McCoy, who's on the Hatfield side. Perry Klein urges governor Buckner to induce the state of Kentucky to offer large monetary rewards for the capture in the arrests of the West Virginia Hatfields. And then, as Perry Klein meant,

Starting point is 01:00:40 it's amazing that he didn't die in this tale. Perry Klein extorts money 225 bucks from some of the Hatfields, promising to use that money to bribe the Kentucky governor, Buckner, to withdraw the warrants. And multiple witnesses confirmed this arrangement, including attorney's A.J. OxyR, James York, who's both in prison at a meeting between John Z. And Perry Klein in December, 1887, when the deal was made. Despite learning of clients's double dealing, Kentucky governor Buckner determined to end the feud.

Starting point is 01:01:08 December 1887, he addresses the state legislature in Kentucky condemning the futists, condemning the futists and the violence, he says, the law-abiding character of the people of Kentucky estimated by others in a great measure, not from the general disposition of its citizens to obey the laws, but from the violent conduct of comparatively a few lawless individuals. If from neglect or inefficiency, we fail to repress this lawlessness or bring the offenders

Starting point is 01:01:34 to justice, we have no right to complain of the false estimation in which we are held by people of other states. So, you know, what he's saying here is, you know, I'm sick of Kentucky being looked at as a bunch of fucking backwards hillbillies as an entire stage because of the actions of this one family, feeding with another family. And then in private, he probably said, damn those inferno, hillbillies, I wish the tug river valley would split wide open enough to unallatge a portal to hail itself and pull both hog folk and dog folk into its eternal flames. The Hatfield see Governor Buckner's headlines, hardline stance, excuse me, on the feud

Starting point is 01:02:10 as both a personal threat and also as an insult. I guess the associate is evidence that the McCoy's are used in political connections in the state to pursue them unjustly despite their warnings. And then late December, the Hatfield's hold a council and decide the only way to end their persecution was to eliminate the head of the snake, eliminate random McCoy and all the members of his family who might testify against them if they were brought to trial and pican. They were kidding about that letter earlier. Perry, you know, fails to take it seriously.

Starting point is 01:02:39 Perry Klein, the McCoys fail to take it seriously. And they're like, all right, you guys aren't going to leave us alone. We're going to fucking come after you now, like really come after you. All of the men including Jim Vance, Cap, John Z, Tomb Chambers, all of everybody agrees to the plan to go after the McCoy, except possibly devilans. He may or may not have agreed. He was sick at the time, used his bad hens as an excuse not to take part in their plan and leadership falls to Jim Vance.

Starting point is 01:03:06 Many things that devilance didn't want what's about to happen to happen, at least not in the way it's going to. So it's all now. So now in the most cold-blooded event of the feud so far, Jim Vance along with Cap, John Z. Bobbly, Elliott Hart Hatfield, son of Ellison, tomb chambers, Ellison mounts, who is the bastard son of devil and his brother, who was stabbed and shot earlier in the story. Charles Glepsby, French doc, Ellison, they launched a midnight attack on the McCoy household New Year's Day, 1888. So have a New Year's McCoy. The Hatfield's just on been surrounded.

Starting point is 01:03:46 Yo, for years, just turned into a shit needle. You caught in the Votix. You caught in the brown. Ah, the Hatfield's stone. Under the cover of darkness, the Hatfield's surround the house, demanded the McCoy men surrender, old Randall and his son Calvin refused. They take up defense defensive positions inside the house against orders to withhold fire. John Zee starts shooting into the house in the ensuing gun battle crazy gym vans tom chambers

Starting point is 01:04:09 set fire to the house of one of random McCoy's young daughters alifier shot as she opens the kitchen door to try to get out of a burning house. By the way, if you have seen the history channel half of the McCoy miniseries drama, which is excellent is historically accurate for the most part. She was not a young child as she was portrayed in that in that docu series. She or miniseries, she was, she's 29, possibly even 30, half of the sources say one half say the other.

Starting point is 01:04:35 She gets shot coming out of the burning house and then her mother, Sarah McCoy, goes to try to aid her, her dying daughter and then Jim Vance strikes her repeatedly with the butt of his rifle. Despite her injuries, she continues to try to help out of fair. And then John Z, you know, the dude who wanted to be her son-in-law while back in this tale, pistol whips the fucking shit out of her to a point she will never mentally recover. Man, John Z pistol whipping the mother of the woman he dated for months, supposedly wanted to make pistol whip in the ant of his current wife.

Starting point is 01:05:09 The fire spreads Calvin McCoy tries to make a run for some corn. He gets shot. You know, one of Randall's sons, O' Randall, he's able to escape into the woods. At this point, the Hathfield party realizes not only had they failed at their plan to kill O' Randall, they had made their situation far worse. They had escalated in a shit that they probably had not imagined. Both Calvin and Alaphair are dead. So two more, two more of Randall, you know, McCoy's kids, five of his kids now have been

Starting point is 01:05:37 killed in this feud. Sarah, his wife, gravely wounded with a broken arm, broken hip and crushed skull. Yeah, and she would be brain damage for the rest of her life. Much of the property was also destroyed. Forcing Randall to move in with his remaining family in the Pikeville home with Perry Klein. There, the formerly disowned daughter Rosanna goes over and takes care of her beaten mother. God, man, Randall is getting the worst of this feud.

Starting point is 01:06:02 Holy shit. Hatfields of now, uh, yeah, killedall's getting the worst to this feud. Holy shit. Hatfields have now killed four of his sons, one of his daughters killed a pair of his nephews, beat his wife almost to death, burned his fucking house down, killed his brother years back. Meanwhile, the only blood kin that devilans has lost is his brother, Ellison, and this feud to this point. You know, the midnight attack on the McCoy farm, this is, this is the event that first drew national attention to the feud. Newspapers all over the region running sensationalized headlines about the event, the feud in general, a genuine of 1888, Frank Phillips Pike,

Starting point is 01:06:33 County Sheriff's Deputy, official agent of Governor Buckner and the Hatfield matter ally of the McCoys, assembles a party of 27 men to go into West Virginia and chase down the Hatfields, taking the Hatfields. Taking the Hatfields by surprise, Phillips and his posse do capture cap and they actually kill Jim Vance, shooting him in the stomach and then in the head. So now devilance has lost a, you know, second blood kin, a dogfolk getting a wee bit of payback on them. They have how folk now killed devil and brother and his uncle.

Starting point is 01:07:02 Throughout the first part of January, Phillips and his men would occasionally cross into West Virginia for more short raids, hoping to repeat the success and taking cap and killing Jim Vance. But then on January 19th, Phillips and his men find themselves in a much bigger conflict than they expected. And what would become known as the battle on grapevine Creek? Phillips and 18 of his men, many of them a coys find themselves in a fucking battle almost like a military battle with 13 hat filled men who themselves carried a warrant for the the rest for the murders of

Starting point is 01:07:33 Jim Vance so see see like this keeps happening like you know West Virginia is like all right all right we didn't like they killed people in our land that we didn't okay you know so we don't recognize them as lawmen so now you guys need to be lawmen so each side has warrants for the other side each side will you know uh... think that they have the law on their side when they're fighting this is just crazy during the battle or several deaths on each side uh... none of them directly related to either devil and satfield or animal koi uh... philips did capture a number of hadfield partisan so

Starting point is 01:08:00 in the battle including wall hatfield tom chambers alliance michael uh... androof arney uh... ellis macoi son of sail Kirk Moses christian sand mayhem So in the battle including Wall Hatfield, Tom Chambers, Elias Mitchell, Andrew Varney, LS McCoy, son of Sail Kirk, Moses Christian, Sam Mayhem, Doc Mayhem, and client Mayhem. In the aftermath of the Battle of Grapevine Creek, West Virginia offers rewards for the capture of Phillips and 21 members of his posse. The States considering them to be acting illegally in Logan County. This feud's really got him big now, man.

Starting point is 01:08:23 This is, this is, and bringing bringing in a lawman from each side. It's causing like a fucking battle. You got West Virginia offering rewards for Kentucky law officers. You got Kentucky offering rewards for, I guess what are essentially now a West Virginia law officer. Back and forth, back and forth.

Starting point is 01:08:43 Man, I get why this story has captured so many people's imagination for so long. I think most of us have had a dispute with the neighbor or at very least had a neighbor we really don't care for, but now imagine to kind of personalize this a little bit. Imagine you have a huge family that you're super close with and that your entire family hates a neighbor and their family. Then basically your family declares war on this neighboring family. And now imagine there's say like a city, county, or state line dividing your properties. And that local law enforcement actually supports you waging

Starting point is 01:09:15 war on your neighbor. And then that local areas law enforcement supports that neighbor war, waging war back on you. Got me. I think about this neighbor Chuck I had that I had screaming match with before he moved out. Like, what if just me instead of yelling at him, I just fucking shot at him and then didn't get in trouble? At least not right away, you know, even though everybody knows about it. And then he shoots back at me and then I have my dad and some uncles and some cousins come over and just raid his fucking house.

Starting point is 01:09:42 Have a shoot out, you know, set his house on fire, kill a couple of his relation, beat his wife, half to death. This really happened with these people. They essentially waged war on fellow citizens and the battle rages for over a decade. The Battle of Grapevine Creek finally ended the marriage of John Z. Hatfield and Nancy McCoy. I can't believe it lasts this long.

Starting point is 01:10:00 Nancy then returns home to her family in Kentucky. And actually, Mary's Pike County Sheriff Deputy Frank Phillips, the man who had been pursuing all the Hatfields uh... fancy than returns returns home to her family in Kentucky and actually marries pike county sheriff deputy frank philips the man who've been pursuing all the hadfield in west virginia uh... this is such a fucking soap opera marries the man hunting her husband and husband's family marries the man who sought justice for the hadfields who killed numerous members of her family how crazy is this shit uh... marries the man whose father, you know,

Starting point is 01:10:26 and or great uncle were, or yeah, she had married, excuse me, the man whose father and or great uncle were rumored to have killed her dead. She had married the man, you know, previously, John Zee, who participated in the execution of several of her first cousins remained married to him. You know, when his family killed her brother, remained married to him when he pissed a whipped her aunt,, participated in the shootout killed a few more of her first cousins. I can only imagine what kind of marital arguments they had. You know, I can't, I can't take you continually, moping about the cabin, man. You can't keep dwelling on the path.

Starting point is 01:10:58 That's how a picnic of something, man. Enjoy a sunny day down by the river. And what will we talk about, Johnson? Will we talk about which of my kin kin your crazy ass dad plans on killing next when we talk about what my aunt did to deserve your pistol whipping maybe we could discuss what it felt like to burn down my family's home or what my brother said before you can kill him or who killed my daddy your father or your uncle all right nance all right nance that's I hear you. You make a lot of good points,

Starting point is 01:11:25 maybe we shouldn't talk about another. Maybe we should just quietly form a cage or something along those lines. Yeah, how the fuck do they ever get married and stay married around this time? John Z's former lover, Rose Annamakoi, she dies of some unknown illness, probably a broken soul.

Starting point is 01:11:39 Old Annamakoi and his wife, Sarah, lose yet another child. These people are cursed. New newspapers around the region publish accounts of this new battle, draw more attention to the feud. old random coin his wife Sarah lose yet another child these people are cursed. News papers around the region published accounts of this new battle draw more attention to the feud. The Wheeling Intellinger declares if if one half of the stories of brutality and murder are true the case would seem to want the authorities of both states and taking hold and ending the trouble even if it is necessary to call the state troops into action. So a lot of people getting very sick of this feud in late January,

Starting point is 01:12:07 Pike County judge to bias Wagner County attorney Lee Ferguson personally, visit Kentucky governor, Buckner, to request that state troops are indeed deployed to protect Pike County. But Buckner refuses to do so suggesting instead that local citizen reassemble a militia to deal with the situation. Yeah, because that's been working out real well. At the same time, West Virginia, a delegation from Logan County, but Tissians West Virginia governor Wilson to either provide troops for the county's defense or provide them with

Starting point is 01:12:33 arms to defend themselves. Both Logan and Pike County officials believe that the situation in the tug valley has now gone beyond a mere family blood feud and requires greater intervention on the part of the state and then neither state is willing to provide that. The events of January 1888 aggravate the relationship between the governors of West Virginia and Kentucky, especially in the wake of Great Vine Creek, a governor Wilson. Now he resists complying with Kentucky's request for extradition of the Hatfields. Instead, he suggests that both states send independent agents into Logan and Pike counties

Starting point is 01:13:04 to try to get to the truth of the matter, then work together to suppress violence in the tug valley. While this joint investigation is a good idea and theory, it does nothing to resolve the conflict. Both investors come to the same conclusion that the recent spade of violence, all the violence that occurs mostly as a direct result of those indictments against the Hatfields for the McCoy's son's murder in 1882, five years after the fact, the subsequent killing or excuse me, subsequent kidnapping of men in West Virginia by Phillips and his posse have incited the violence, have

Starting point is 01:13:34 continued the violence. The results of the joint investigation marked the end of cooperation between West Virginia and Kentucky and opens a new chapter in the feud. One will take one that will take place primarily in the courts rather than in Tug Valley. And all the most of the violence is over regarding this feud by the end of January 1888, the legal maneuvering, the legal drama is just beginning. And we're going to get into that legal drama right after a word from today's final sponsor.

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Starting point is 01:17:46 way to the Supreme Court. Uh, February of 1888, recognizing the governor, Buckner, not going to budge on his desire to see the Hatfield extradited, Governor Wilson decides to begin legal proceedings against the state of Kentucky. Um, first Wilson sends an agent to governor, Buckner demanding that the release, demanding excuse me, the release of nine prisoner hatfields Asserting that there are arrests at the hands of Phillips acting as a state agent had been illegal Buckner refuses a request so then Wilson files a

Starting point is 01:18:15 Ritz of habeas corpus on behalf of the Hatfield prisoners on February 9th, 1888 the case is presented to the US District Court in Louisville, Kentucky The main argument of West Virginia's case was that Phillips and his crew, Actance agents of the state of Kentucky, had acted illegally when they went into West Virginia to arrest the Hatfields. And since Phillips and his men were Actance agents on behalf of the state of Kentucky, and because the Constitution protects all its citizens against unlawful seizure, the case had become a federal issue.

Starting point is 01:18:44 Used as Gibson, lawyer who represented West Virginia in the Hatfields in these proceedings, also challenges the legitimacy of the warrants since the state of Kentucky had waited five years to pursue the Hatfields and only did so after McCoy attorney Perry Klein essentially bribed the governor to get involved. The state of Kentucky, represented by Jay Proctor Not, a former governor, refutes the argument that this was a federal case on several points and also argues that Wilson couldn't file rits of habeas corpus for the prisoners as a state agent or a third party. The judge ultimately found in favor of West Virginia and ordered that all nine prisoner

Starting point is 01:19:18 hat fields appear in his court on February 20th for habeas corpus hearing. The pressing in Kentucky outraged by this decision, those in West Virginia feel justice has been done. The hearing begins on February 25th and after debate by both sides, court has recessed until Monday, February 27th during the hearing. Tucky argues that a criminal could not try to escape prosecution by claiming illegality or irregularity of his arrest. Officer Phillips had been acting as a private individual rather than a state agent when

Starting point is 01:19:46 he arrested the Hatfields and as a state was not responsible for Phillips men's actions during the course of the arrest. West Virginia argues that the arrest is illegal because the prisoners have been held in custody for 12 hours before the legal execution of their warrants and that Phillips had claimed authority as a state agent at the time of the arrest. So a bunch of legal maneuverings. March 3, the judge delivers his decision. He feels that the case is essentially an argument between the two states and refers the

Starting point is 01:20:10 case up to the US Supreme Court. Hawk folk versus dog folk. Make his way from the tug river valley all the way to the Supreme Court of the US or V. Yeah, yeah. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, West Virginia governor Wilson appeals the decision on March 5th, the judge grants the appeal,

Starting point is 01:20:33 which passes to the U.S. Circuit Court on April 5th. Here used to skips in the lawyer who represented West Virginia in the Hatfields again argues that the rest of the Hatfields in West Virginia constituted unlawful seizure, state stated Kentucky attorney, former Kentucky governor, J. Procter, not acknowledges that the rest were unlawful, but claims that it didn't matter because they were then lawfully arrested in Kentucky. And the judge in the appeals case reaffirmed the decision to send the trial to the US Supreme Court. So now April 13th, 1888 lawyers for both West Virginia and Kentucky arrive in Washington,

Starting point is 01:21:02 DC to present their arguments for the case. The arguments began on April 23rd, West Virginia, aka the Hatfields, lawyer Gibson, stick to his original point, the whole series of events from caption West Virginia through arrest and incarceration, Kentucky, continuous constituted, excuse me, a single continuous act by the agents on behalf of the state of Kentucky, Kentucky's attorney, aka the McCoy's attorney, not declared that it had never been, excuse me, an issue between the two states, but rather between private individuals. And if it had been a state issue, West Virginia should have filed to the U.S. Supreme Court

Starting point is 01:21:38 directly instead of going to the first, the district court, he's Christ. The general opinion was that this was correct and the west virginia had made a procedural error ultimately the supreme court rules that while the initial arrest and abduction of the hatfields west virginia was on constitutional there were no grounds for charging in tucky with wrongdoing to the state of west virginia so now can tucky wins the case and uh... hatfields are now on the run

Starting point is 01:22:01 get get you feel the hot folk out of the federal beach and you You're going to be chasing you. You swine. So now several hat fields are being searched, uh, look for to be put on trial for the New Year's attack on the Randall McCoy's home in the spring of 1888. West Virginia authorities take legal measures of their own against the men responsible for the arrests and Died in Frank Phillips, that Debbie Sheriff, uh, uh, yeah, and Died in, excuse me, Frank Phillips, Debbie to sheriff John Yates of Pike County and assorted McCoy's for the murder of Jim Vance. Additionally, the offer substantial rewards for the rest of Phillips and other men. McCoy men on the run now as well. It's a lot of legal maneuvering for really the same results.

Starting point is 01:22:36 You still have just Hatfield people being chased by authorities on behalf of Kentucky, and you still have McCoy people now being chased by authorities on behalf of West Virginia. By the summer of 1888, the rewards offered for the Hatfields in Kentucky and the McCoys in West Virginia had totaled to about $8,000, which draws the attention of various kind of detectives from all over the country. Pinkerton and others descended on the tug valley with hopes to get enriched by capturing some of these people and collecting some rewards. On both sides, these new, the outliers, these new detectives are met with disdain, sometimes outright hostility.

Starting point is 01:23:10 Most of the one that had from McCoy Man seek refuge in the mountains, just hide out, let them tell things cool down, let them are women and kids at home, let them mind the properties. Devilance, he himself moves to a remote, narrow valley, near a stirret, West Virginia. Sorry, if I'm saying that name wrong, to small, unincorporated area in Logan County that no one outside

Starting point is 01:23:30 of that area gives a single fuck about. No one has published any type of pronunciation guide. So if you're like, actually, that's pronounced. Uh, stair, you and seven people care about that. Um, anyway, devilance hides there to protect himself from these new outsiders. Uh, he even set up a kind of fortress for his clan. Should they need to flee into the woods to defend themselves? He stalks a cabin with water, food, fuel, arms and ammunition in case of a prolonged siege. Ah, no big whoops. Just, just building a backwoods hillbiddy castle to hide out it and shoot at McCoy's or any law officers that come to give me kind of guff.

Starting point is 01:24:05 Man, devil ants, he truly did earn that nickname. The guy was tough as shit. Not going to go down without a fight. The feud itself does quiet down as guys are not kind of captured. Just, despite the ceasefire, the newspapers, they try to keep the feud going, but publishing stories, delighting the rest of the nation with details, unflattering details of Appalachian life and culture, which I get. You know, that's kind of exactly what I've done.

Starting point is 01:24:29 And let's stay a little bit. Occasionally, members of each clan are interviewed. The Hatfields maintain that they just want nothing but peace. You know, the McCoys maintain. They just want some justice. Finally on August 24th, 1888, Hatfields, including Cap, John Z. Robert Elliott Hatfield, Elias, Ellison Mouts, French Ellis, Charles Elepsi, Glepsi, Thomas Chambers are indicted for the murder of Alephair McCoy, old Randall's young daughter during the infamous New Year's Eve

Starting point is 01:24:57 attack all those years back on the McCoy homestead. In the fall of 1888, Charles Elepsi is the first man arrested for the attack captured in Virginia on September 15th, Ellison Mouts mounts that illegitimate son of Ellison Hatfield and nephew of devil ants often called cotton top mounts is arrested before the end of October. Also in the fall of 1889, nine Hatfield prisoners end up going on trial for the 1882 murders of the McCoy sons at the end of August 1889. So those two events the retribution killings of the three sons and then the attack on the cabin. They just haven't died still because you know, no one on the half-filled side has been punished.

Starting point is 01:25:35 Before the trial begins, Ellison caught in top mounts. Confesses to the role his role in these murders provides testimony recounting the events of August 9th 1882. He names devilans John Z cap bill Tom Hatfield Alex Mezzner Tom chambers as the shooters describes the murder of Jeff McCoy as told to him by cap The prosecution presents additional 19 witnesses including eight more Hatfields The jury finds wall Hatfield brother of devilans guilty of murder recommends a sense of life imprisonment wall appeals is verdict and on September 5th, 1889, his sentence is suspended for 60 days, while several other defendants are tried. Hatfield, associate, Alex Mezor, Doc Mayhun, Wall Hatfield, Sun and Law, client Mayhun, another Sun and Law, tried simultaneously,

Starting point is 01:26:20 all found guilty, all given life sentences. None of these people will end up serving as long as maybe they're supposed to. Bastard, Ellison, mounts, described in historical accounts as being dim-witted, cotton-top mounts, yeah, basically is intellectually disabled. Confess is, you know, again, I had confessed to that role of Alabama, Koi,

Starting point is 01:26:41 entered the guilty plea, and he is actually sentenced to death. So sadly, the one person involved in this feud who really just mentally is the least responsible, this intellectually disabled person is the one sentenced to death. And he's held in a Pike County jail and tell his execution the rest of the convicted hat fields transported to Lexington on September 5th, all appealed or verdicts. But on November 9th, 1889, the Kentucky Court of Appeals upholds these convictions and sentences. Although mounts execution originally scheduled for December 3rd, it was postponed until

Starting point is 01:27:15 February 18th. Authorities Kentucky fully expect the Hatfields to mount a rescue attempt, but it doesn't happen. In the days leading up to the execution, large crowds began to gather in Pikefield to witness the hanging, despite the fact that a public execution is illegal in Kentucky this time. For his part, mount seems resigned to his fate, refusing to talk, eat or receive word from local pastor. Smokes as cigar, refused to speak on the morning of February 18th, as his death warrant is read before public before public executions were legal, officials had surrounded the site with

Starting point is 01:27:45 the wooden fence or excuse me, because they were legal. However, they placed the fence at the base of a hill so that people to sit on the hill can just look down over the fence, they actually put a scaffold up there so people can view the proceedings. When asked if he had any final words, Mount said he was ready to die, but at the final moment, he did cry out. They made me do it. The hat feels made me do it. And then the public execution of cotton top does seem to finish the food. They've just hung hanged, I guess, sorry, they've just hanged an intellectually disabled man. This is a low point. It seems to wake everybody up to the craziness of what all has happened. Doesn't bring anybody back West Virginia withdraws the rewards for the capture of the McCoy's.

Starting point is 01:28:29 Although charges against additional Hatfields do remain outstanding Kentucky, such as the charge of murder against devalence for that vigilante execution of those three McCoy boys, little has ever done about it. On February 24th, 1891, word that the feud is over comes from a member of the Hatfield family in the form of a letter to the press. Cap Atfield or Cap Hatfield, one of Devilands's sons writes this letter to the Wayne County News saying, I ask your valuable paper for these few lines. A general amnesty has been declared in the famous Hatfield and McCoy feud, and I wish to say something of the old and the new.

Starting point is 01:29:02 I do not wish to keep the old feud alive. And I suppose that everybody like myself is tired of the names of Hatfield and McCoy and the border warfare in time of peace. The war spirit in me has abated and not sincerely rejoiced at the prospect of peace. I've devoted my life to arms. We have undergone a fearful loss of noble lives

Starting point is 01:29:21 and valuable property, valuable property in the struggle. We beam like Adam, not the first transgressors. gone a fearful loss of noble lives and valuable property, valuable property in the struggle. We being like Adam, not the first transgressors, now I propose to rest in a spirit of peace. That's kind of a funny line. It's always near at the end though. We being like Adam, not the first transgressors because they always do that with these apologies in this fear. They're like, ah, what's the sound about it, but just for the record, it was those other

Starting point is 01:29:41 people's fault. Regional economics may have also had a hand in the end of the feud. By the 1890s, the region of Appalachia on the brink of an industrial boom, coal and lumber companies are expressing an interest in developing the area. However, these companies had been put off by this air of lawlessness in the region.

Starting point is 01:29:58 And this provided further incentive for kind of, you know, state officials on both sides to get them to clean up their acts. Let's, you know, enough violence to start making some real money. The new governor of West Virginia, William A. McCorkle saw industry as a way to prevent further violence saying, a discolored in the mountains was never ending because no new laugh or no new blood was brought into dispel it. A railway destroys a feud, a manufacturer area.

Starting point is 01:30:23 I don't know what kind of fucking word, a manufacturing. I don't know if that's a real word. A manufacturing absolutely wipes out neighborhood animosity and public improvements to bringing new conditions. I guess it is, a manufacturing. It says not bring up any spell check red lines. And everybody lived happily ever after, not quite. Despite the mutual desire of both families and their communities to end the violence, things

Starting point is 01:30:46 did not settle down entirely in the valley in the 1890s. The Hatfields still had fire in their veins. Check this shit out, man. After all this, they're just, you know, once a Hatfield, always a Hatfield. November 1896, Hatfield and the Stepsson, Joe Glenn, Visiting the nearby town of mate Juan West for Virginia for winter elections. They encountered John Rutherford, a man who kept shared an old grudge with, and the two men opened fire as soon as they saw one another.

Starting point is 01:31:13 He's Christ. Rutherford is brother-in-law Henderson Chambers, and Rutherford's nephew, Elliot, are all gunned down. Cap and Glenn are captured, tried for murder in 1897, and then Cap is found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and Glenn pleads to the same charge. Both receive one year census. They shoot down three dudes over a grudge in broad daylight and you all right, you get

Starting point is 01:31:38 a year sentence. We don't care for that. We'll civilize now. And then Capis gave some jail just three months later. Clearly the Hatfield still have some pull and the obviously still corrupt drug river valley political and justice systems. Yeah. And then after escaping, cap resettles in the area somehow doesn't go back to jail, right?

Starting point is 01:31:59 Just, hey, Cap, I ain't just supposed to be in jail, some for killing those few men. No, I don't, I don't, I don know, I don't call them nothing like that, Chef. Oh, okay, okay, all right. So, my, my my my my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my John Zee is finally arrested all this time later for his role in the McCoy Brothers execution 1882 16 years later Uh, and also for the his participation in the in the New Year's Day McCoy homestead masquerade 1888 10 years before he's captured by a posse Uh, led by a local lawman named Humphrey doc Ellis That doc it must I guess is that there's so many of the same names. That's also what's fucking terribly confusing about trying to figure out his tale. So many people have the same goddamn name.

Starting point is 01:32:51 Cause there was a guy named Doc Ellis who participated in the New Year's Day McCoy Homestead Massacre. I believe this is a different Doc Ellis. So yeah, so John Zee is convicted for participating in both sets of killings, but then he'll soon be free because that's just what happened back then. Also in 1898, another son of devilans, John Zee's younger brother Elias M. Hatfield commits

Starting point is 01:33:13 another murder. Elias, too young to be involved in most of the major feud events or even to remember them. In 1898, he was only 21 years old. Intelligent, he had a head for business like his dad, like his papi, he was well-liked, like his daddy, like his papi had a head for business. He wasn't well-liked, like his papi, because I don't think devilans, I don't think he'd call him well-liked. He also had a hair trigger temper, and when his brother, John Z is captured

Starting point is 01:33:36 all those years later, he swears vengeance on this doc Ellis fella, who maybe, I couldn't find anything in there because it may be the same guy that did participate in that New Year's day, which makes it all the more ridiculous. And that stuff would happen back then. One guy would be part of a posse, you know, involved in killing somebody else, and then years later that guy would somehow become a lawman

Starting point is 01:33:55 and would be like, go after capturing and arresting dudes who are part of the same fucking posse he was part of. On July 4th, 1898 at a local Independence Day celebration. Doc Ellis speaking, speaking, uh, or scheduled to speak publicly during the days of events. That morning he boarded a train, uh, draped in American flags and Independence Day decorations in the tiny town of, uh, Yeager West Virginia with the intention of heading towards Wilmingson or Williamson for the festive occasion.

Starting point is 01:34:23 Along the trek, the train makes the schedule whistle stop at Gray Yard approximately 20 miles east of Williamson across the river from place called Skinners. The same time the train, belching clouds to steam slows to a stop at Gray Yard's allies just happens to be crossing the river. Heads to pick ahead and pick up mail to post office Coleman Hatfield, historian and grandson of Devillands Hatfield later documents the events in his own writing, stating that Doc Ellis, a consummate politician intends to step off the local motive and shake hands with pastures who will

Starting point is 01:34:51 preparing to board as Doc Ellis steps down to a rough wooden slats between two passenger coaches. He just so happens to come face to face with a last Hatfield, who is already standing on the boardwalk to talking to travelers. Hello, Alias, Doc mutters as he tries to sidestep the short-templed Hatfield. Hello Doc, Alias replies with a wide grin. He firmly places his hand on Doc's shoulder, stopping him in mid-strires. So Doc, you think you can come, take me, cross to Kentucky, easy as you did my brother?

Starting point is 01:35:20 After a few tenths seconds. Alias decides this was not the time or place to get revenge and turns away mumbling. You son of a bitch. And he starts speaking with another traveler and friend, IJ, peril, when all hell breaks loose. Doc Ellis shouts, I'll show you who's the son of a bitch. As he launched for the doorway of the passenger con grab his rifle leveling it at elias, scene was about to take place or seen what was about to take place.

Starting point is 01:35:45 Paral through his arm forward, pushing a lies backwards, just as Doc squeezed the trigger and the Winchester exploded in gunfire. Travelers on the boardwalked old for cover, scattering as gunsmoke, billowed the shot just misses a lies his head. And he instinctively pivots while joking his cult single action from his belt and returns fire. The shot was definitely next around here. A metal cuff link on Doc's wrist and the 45 bullet ricocheted upward breaking

Starting point is 01:36:09 Doc Ellis's neck blood spoded from the entrance wound and Doc fell full with debt. On July 12th, Elias turns himself into the Williamson courthouse and is arrested and then jailed on murder charges relating to death of Humphrey Doc Ellis. His plead is self-defense. Before lies his court case can come to the conclusion. Do its conclusion. His brother cap, second son of devil intercedes. Besides, he's got to help his baby brother break out of jail and escape a possible life sentence in prison or the hangman's news. And in the middle of the night on August 18th, while the last weights in a small cell cap slips through the back streets of Williamson on horseback, leads large buckskin pony up behind him. According to family lore cap carried heavy riggins with him. And once he arrived at the jail, he secured one end of a heavy rope cable

Starting point is 01:36:53 to his saddle horn. Time the other to the iron bars covering the jailhouse window. And then just he spurs his horse and the force yanksy iron bars free along with some chunks of masonry around the window casing. And then you know, Elias, you know, pushes some more masonry aside, shimmies out to the opening and then the two just fucking take off. They flee the mountain state that night, bounce around various nearby states for about a year and then just come home. When Elias eventually returns to the mountain state, he's immediately arrested and later convicted for the murder of Doc Elias. He

Starting point is 01:37:25 sent to the West Virginia Penitentiary at Moundsville, but is quickly paroled by George W. Atkinson, governor of the state and a man with ties to the Hatfields and Tuggra Valley, of course. John Z also gets off easy. Lieutenant governor of Kentucky, William Prior Thorn, request his request for a pardon shortly thereafter. The Hatfield still have a little bit of pulling in Kentucky as well. Cap ends up becoming a lawyer shortly after that, setting up a practice in Logan County, which he then would let pass on to his son Coleman and his daughter, Eileen and in line, and Eileen, excuse me, little random trivia would become the first

Starting point is 01:37:58 female attorney in Logan County. I wonder if he used that jailbreak story to win over any clients. When you have cap half you, you are the get off or you give broke out is a half your way. The first few decades of the 20th century, the half of the McCoy's largely steer clear of trouble. They steer clear from labor rights that would trouble Mingo and Logan counties from 1991 to 1921 with the exception of one big part of family lore. When a mate one chief of police Sydney to gun Sid Hatfield, that's his nickname. So they still got some fire. He's actually an adopted Hatfield, but Hatfield nonetheless.

Starting point is 01:38:36 He's at the center of the mate one massacre, a violent confrontation between miners and guards of the Baldwin felt cold mines in which nine men are killed. Hatfield and 20 others are tried for murder who knows exactly how many Hatfield himself shot. Before eventually being found not guilty and released, which doesn't set well with certain people, later on trial for conspiracy charges in 1921, two guns, Sid Hatfield gunned down himself killed on the McDowell County, West Virginia courthouse steps, a retribution killing. Most of the other hat-fills of McCoy's did well and the changing landscape of the Tug Valley, taken on professional careers. In fact, in 1913, Henry Dury had filled nephew of devilans elected governor of West

Starting point is 01:39:16 Virginia, passing significant social legislation, working to settle many of the labor disputes plaguing the region. At the time of his election, 73-year-old devilans is still alive and well. So he gets to see this kin of his elected governor after livening through all the fucking crazy feuding. Devilans this time is a prosperous farmer with money invested in the local coal and timber trades. Randall McCoy, still alive in 1913, not doing as well as devilans.

Starting point is 01:39:42 No McCoy's are really kicking ass in state politics are crushing it and local cold or timber either to make ends meet the now eighty seven year old Randall McCoy. Still working, still making money but working as a ferry operator in Pikeville. He dies on March 28th, 1914. So coming to burn injuries he received after falling into his own fire. Fell into a fire he'd made cooking at his homestead. Jesus, man, after all that, he doesn't even get to die peaceful death. Burnt up in his own fire.

Starting point is 01:40:11 Probably trying to cook himself some shitty meal after a long day, working the ferry that guy was cursed. His wife, Sarah, had died 24 years earlier, a room into a died in a mental hospital, never fully recovered from that pistol whoop and Jonesy put on her. Devil Lans died of pneumonia seven years later on January 6, 1921. His funeral was the largest ever held in Logan County. His death attracted national media attention. Uh, supposedly his last words were, I won.

Starting point is 01:40:39 I fucking won. Woo. Hulkfield. I was coming on top of dogfolk. Yeah. Yeah. Fuck ran on McCaw. He didn't fall no fire. I pushed him into the flames. I made with my own mind I'm the devil. I'm the goddamn devil and the devil don't die and I will hunt them of course forever

Starting point is 01:41:00 That's probably not true, but it definitely takes us out of today's time suck timeline Good job soldier made it back. Barely. Woo! Hey, that was exhausting. That was an exhausting suck. I hope I got all the names and places right. I rewrote this and edited this document to work off of so many times this past week. So many relations, so many people to keep track of in this story. But essentially, I mean, you know, you get the gist. It's just two families not letting shit die for so long. Today's suck. It really did make me truly, truly think about the consequences of just not letting shit slide. Like, I've written a lot of standup over the years, a lot of standup comedy, essentially about vengeance, especially about violent thoughts, what I'd like to do to somebody, to

Starting point is 01:41:53 teach them a lesson for some minor infraction or perceived insult. And today we're selecting on this feud. I just think about how maybe that's not always the best way to live. You know, like, I thought about this moment I shared on a plane with a stranger a couple years ago. It's long been a pet peeve of mine about how when people are getting off a plane, they don't understand. Like some people don't seem to give a shit about just etiquette.

Starting point is 01:42:15 Etaquit breaches in general. Obviously fire me up. But this one in particular is when, you know, if you travel and you don't know this, it's very simple. You let the people out in the row in front of you before you get out. What you don't do is just push your way down the aisle, pass people trying to get out of their seat. It's just fucking rude.

Starting point is 01:42:33 I don't know how people do not understand that. And it's driven me crazy over the years. And sometimes I will just openly be like, all right, man, that's cool. Just what I can do what you want to do. Don't worry about anybody else in the plane. Like in a grouchy moment, I'll just openly say shit. Once I threw my arm out into the aisle, I was like, no, that's not how this works.

Starting point is 01:42:50 You wait for the people in front of you. And maybe that's not the best way to do things. And then I was bitching about this one time, openly bitching about somebody who just pushed past me and some other people. I was sitting in first class, I fly so much, I get upgrade sometimes. Kind of sweet.

Starting point is 01:43:06 If you fly a crazy amount, everyone's so out, yeah, you get these upgrades for free. This guy was probably somebody who paid for his first class. He was dressed as someone who's probably had a lot of money in my mind at least. He seemed very successful, calm, and poised. I asked him if he ever just kind of snapped in these people. He just looked at me like I was insane and he goes, no, it's not worth it. I got too much to lose.

Starting point is 01:43:28 And then just didn't talk to me more. And I felt like an idiot. And I just thought, you know, what the fuck am I doing? You know, maybe saying something isn't that big of a deal, but maybe I shouldn't throw my arm out in the aisle. You know, because then I was thinking like, I thought about what he meant. You know, like what you can lose from just overreacting.

Starting point is 01:43:44 Like what if I throw my arm out, and then that causes somebody to push past my arm, and then I push them like it escalates into something physical, and then while it's being sorted out legally, what if I get banned from flying? That can happen. That would seriously fuck my career up.

Starting point is 01:43:58 What if I, you know, I can't exactly drive from Cordillane Idaho to Buffalo, New York in time to also have my family here and run this podcast and make it to my next. It's just not feasible to drive the way my kind of tour routing goes. Or what if I took that to give it in further? What if a fight breaks out? What if I intentionally actually unintentionally end up hurting somebody on a flight because it's a terrible thing?

Starting point is 01:44:24 What if I go to fucking prison, lose my career, lose a lot of money, all because I just couldn't let some shit slide. How stupid, you know? It's tough, man. On the one hand, you don't want to let just the world walk all over you. You know, and just be a doormat for everybody,

Starting point is 01:44:40 but on the other, you gotta think about situations. You wanna overreact and throw your life away needlessly to escalate a situation to a very scary place. A lot of lessons to be learned from this Hatfield McCoy feud. You know, when do you just cut your losses? When do you just walk away? What if random McCoy hadn't went to the authorities after three sons were killed by that Hatfield posse? I mean, the only reason that posse went after them is because, you know, during some stupid fight at an election, his sons had stabbed the shit and then shot Devilands' brother in cold blood.

Starting point is 01:45:12 They weren't innocent, but Randall couldn't let it go. He wanted what he thought was justice and it just kept escalating. It ended up getting his fucking house burned down, ended up getting his wife pissed a whipped into a mental institution. What's that saying? You know, cooler heads prevail. I think there is some truth to that. It's a lesson I need to remind myself often.

Starting point is 01:45:31 Or is it less than that when you're facing a ruthless opponent like devilans, do you need to be more ruthless to end things like what if rather than go into the authorities, what if random McCoy would have stormed devilans his house with his own posse and burn that to the ground? Or would that have just escalated the same way? Probably is a lesson to know your limits. You know, should, should random McCoy

Starting point is 01:45:49 should he have learned that devil ants would just disappear your opponent? That's what it seemed like to me digging in this story. I'm trying to piss off the many McCoy can, some of whom I'm sure probably listening to this podcast. But you know, maybe devil ants would just out of Randall's league. He had more men, more guns, more ruthless. Maybe Randall should have recognized he was outmaned.

Starting point is 01:46:06 He was outmeaned. I don't know. I think the lesson you can take away at the very least is to think about your actions. Think about the consequences of your actions. What reactions could they cause? What chain of events could they kick off? Are the consequences of those potential reactions

Starting point is 01:46:21 worth the actions you're choosing to take? Think before you act. Always a, always probably probably good thing to do. Yeah, I mean, maybe they're some important lesson just missing. Let's find out by checking in with today's idiots of the internet. It is the internet. User fast, the latest news published a video called

Starting point is 01:46:44 Hatfields and McCoy's What Really Happened on July 12, 2013, 213,770 views and 175 comments. The description reads, the 19th century rivalry between two West Virginia clans has become the most famous family feud in American history. Correspondent Rita Braver spoke with descendants from both sides to help navigate the historic battles countless myths and tall tales to find the truth. Yeah, because there is so many rumors on the online about the stuff. Dr. Madcap, RX rights, I have a feeling in today's world the McCoy family would all be hooked on meth.

Starting point is 01:47:18 Yeah, just crack me up. Yeah, probably possible at the very least. I think actually, meth abuse would have been kinder to the McCoy family than devilans was. More of an observation than a lesson, you know, drawn from his tail, but an interesting one. User Joshua Whitposts,

Starting point is 01:47:36 a great captain obvious comment typing, I can love when people do this types. The Hatfields lived in West Virginia and the McCoy is lived in Kentucky. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Thank you, Josh. Thank you for writing that in the comment section. Thank you, writing for what the narrator just continuously says in the video. Why do people do that? I feel like that's like watching a trailer for Mission Impossible Road Nation and then commenting Tom Cruise. Tom Cruise is in this movie or even better. This movie is called Mission Impossible Rognation and then commenting Tom Cruise. Tom Cruise is in this movie or even

Starting point is 01:48:06 better. This movie is called Mission Impossible Rognation. Better still under this YouTube trailer for Mission Impossible Rognation. Just commenting. I just watched the trailer for Mission Impossible Rognation. It's on YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. User lost 941-33 types. Good bless the Confederation. May it rise again. I just thought this was especially idiotic. Of course, someone wanting to see the Confederate states rise again is someone fucking terrible at spelling.

Starting point is 01:48:37 God only has 1-0 dip shit. User, Barry Barnes, wants us all to know he enjoyed this video writing thought the video was good. Haha. That's nice, Barry. I decided to write that lukewarm compliment. I like how you also made it clear that the video might not be good. You know, you just think it is. Yeah, I just thought that the video was good. You're not throwing out hard facts. I'm trying to push people too hard. You're spending nothing more. You seem sweet, Barry. probably not a riveting conversation list but sweet user remi JB post related or not you are not them you are what you are a lot of exclamation points in this post And I have a feeling that remi JB would would think she was a lot smarter than Barry Barnes if she met him But I think she'd be wrong. She seems like one of those

Starting point is 01:49:22 pseudo philosophers, you know thinking they're throwing out, you know, profound shit, but it's just like a fucking series of like, okay, I guess you need to deride that. And then Barry Barnes is back, back in the comments, a few comments down in the thread typing, very love the history of this family. Oh, Barry, I hope you have a lot of nice people in your life that love you and spider the dumb shit

Starting point is 01:49:44 you must constantly say. What do you think of dinner, Barry? I thought you have a lot of nice people in your life that love you and spider the dumb shit you must constantly say. What do you think of dinner bear? I thought this meal was good, Sheila. I very love your tuna casserole. Uh, user Riley has me second guessing how ancestry works posting, my great-grandmother was a direct descendant of the Hatfields. Doesn't that mean if your great-grandmother is a direct descendant of a family? Well, then aren't you a fucking direct descendant? This is really like I've thought way too much about this I had to look up the meaning of direct descendant after reading Riley's comics

Starting point is 01:50:13 I was like wait a minute is this stupid or is this or is he right? Here's the definition a direct descendant is someone who can trace their lineage by child Relationships all the way back to a desired ancestor. Non-direct descendant has to go through a cousin or by marriage or some other non-child relationship in order to find the desired ancestor. So I would think the way I'm looking, unless you're adopted, you are the direct descendant

Starting point is 01:50:41 of your grandma, right? I mean, your grandma gave birth to either your father or mother and then your father or mother married someone and produced or whatever Have a relationship with somebody and produced you so you would be the direct descendant of anyone that your Rampairn is the direct descendant of I don't know damn I still feel confused whatever Riley has maybe contagious I'm sorry if I just infected you now as well Brooklyn McCoy wrote and this just I was tired when I read this. It really fucking irritated me. She wrote, this made me cry, but I forgive them. Fuck and stop it, Brooklyn. Stop. You cried. You cried. Like literally cried. And felt the need to, to publicly forgive

Starting point is 01:51:21 them. What, for how you've been wronged, or because ancestors of yours died with your last name, McCoy, I'm guessing what, over 100 years before you were born, you forgive people who killed them, who also died in all likelihood, over 100 years before you were born. The feud was over in 1890, 128 years ago. I just, it's always annoyed me when people try to glom onto tragedy that I don't feel

Starting point is 01:51:44 they have any ownership in. Right? Like, like, uh, like, that's a 9-11 terrible tragedy, but there was people who, I feel like went way out of their way to get attention for themselves when they weren't related to anybody who died. They weren't related to anybody who was related to somebody who died. They didn't know anybody who died. They didn't know anybody who knew somebody that died. who was related to somebody who died, they didn't know anybody who died, they didn't know anybody who knew somebody that died. And it just felt like this, like, look at me,

Starting point is 01:52:07 look how sad I am, look at how much of a caring person I am. Yeah, I could just never be close friends with somebody that melodramatic. What's going on, Brooklyn? Why are you crying? Why are you upset? I am so upset. I just read about the black plague, I was saying my family tree and some of my grandparents died horrible deaths every kind of my eyes all day.

Starting point is 01:52:37 Your grandparents died in the black plague? Yes, my great, great, great, great, great, great, like 50 more great grambas. Yeah, I'm gonna grab my shit now and fucking leave and never talk to you again. I have a nice life drama queen. Eight percent of the posts on this thread are of someone letting the rest of the commenters know that they are either related to the Hatfields or the McCoy's. Just a lot of comments of, I'm a Hatfield. I'm a McCoy, which is why I think Chris official wins the section of today, of the internet today. When they post simply, I'm not related. Well,

Starting point is 01:53:12 played Chris. If you see it in the thread, it's so great. It's like 20 comments. I'm really to this. I'm really, and finally someone's like, I'm not related. I don't think I'm related either. And that's enough for today's it is of the internet. Okay, so it turns out I didn't learn much and say it's the internet examination. Maybe we should have pazely back in here today. Maybe he could have added his insight. I did learn that, you know, I do really think it's ridiculous when you weep over shit that happened to people who you never knew who died long ago. Maybe I'm wrong that way.

Starting point is 01:53:49 Maybe I'm just a cold, blooded monster. It's possible. I have been accused many times over the course of my life of not being empathetic enough to people in certain situations. I did joke a long time ago about how I could never be a counselor, which was supposed to be my path just because I'm not, I can't entertain people's, you know, whining like some people can.

Starting point is 01:54:14 It comes across. Some people complain of their problems, comes across to me like, shut the fuck up, suck it up. But I don't think I have a few chuckles. And since I can't think of any additional lessons, let's look back again on the ones we did learn today. Have some fun with some silly new info. And today's top five takeaways.

Starting point is 01:54:28 Time, suck, top five takeaways. Number one, the two instigators of this feud where devillands had field in Randall McCoy, patriarchs of the Hatfield and McCoy families. Ironically, both without last the famous feud, they started. Number two, Randall McCoy families. Ironically, both without last the famous feud, they started. Number two, random McCoy lived a long life of misery. He lived at the age of 88, saw five kids die in the feud, saw his wife beat and nearly to death.

Starting point is 01:54:52 Devilance, Hatfield to me is undeniably the winner of this feud. Yes, his nephew would get hanged in his brother murdered, and other relatives would be sent to prison, but none of his sons would die in the feud. 11 of us 13 kids would outlive him, even though he lived to be 81. 10 years before he died, two of his kids, 33 year old Elias and 31 year old Troy would die in a gun fight. Of course, in Montgomery, West Virginia, 1911, killing the man shooting both of them over

Starting point is 01:55:19 a disagreement about whom got over who got to sell liquor to whom in Montgomery the Hathfield brothers allegedly started the fight fire still fire all running in those Hatfield hog folk veins number three the feud began in earnest over accusations of hog thefts in 1878 and ended with the hanging of an intellectually disabled man in 1890 and in between Hogthaeft and what seems like a very ill-advised hanging a lot of other people died. Number four is Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding That's what dogfolk for cash prizes. And how great is this? They had a pig kept on stage during the games that whoever the winner, you know, got to have the pick as well. The McCoy family won the week long series, three games to two. While the Hatfields won more money, $11,272 to the McCoy's $8,459.

Starting point is 01:56:37 The decision was made to augment the McCoy family winnings to $11,273. One dollar more since they had won the most games. And if Devil Lance was still alive, he would have been slided enough by this incident to kill at least two more McCoy's. Time to suck tough, right takeaway. Hat feels and McCoy's have been sucked. I hope I did it justice. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:57:10 Man, devil ants, not a man to be trifled with. Oh, shit, man. And random a coy, not a guy who could let shit slide. But yeah, devil ants, man, he seemed a scary as some of the serial killers that we've sucked on this show. Thank you again to the entire entire time suck team, the high priestess of the suck harmony velocamp, Jesse guardian of grammar, dobner, out sick this week. Hope you're feeling better, Jesse, Reverend Dr. Joe Paisley, time suck high priest, Alex Dugan, the guys at Bidelixer, danger brain space, those are its merch, wizards, access apparel, queen of the suck, Lindsey Cummins, and speaking of access, yeah, again, we got that 25% off sale in the store, starting cyber Monday leading to the following Sunday.

Starting point is 01:57:46 Hope you take advantage of that. Huge thanks to first time suck researcher, Devon Stewart, for kicking some ass. Devon, I hope I did justice to your research. We'll be getting more help from Devon on at least one more suck going forward, hopefully more after that, man. You crushed it. In an email with Lindsay, Devon wrote,

Starting point is 01:58:01 I thought this was fun to share. I talked to my Hatfield friend about any good family stories. And while he didn't have any, he did share what I think is a pretty interesting piece of information. Apparently his Hatfield ancestors were only distant relations to the Appalachian Hatfields, and didn't even live in the region at the time the feud occurred. Despite this, his grandmother, who is only

Starting point is 01:58:21 that kind of Hatfield by marriage, still takes the relation very seriously and still insists kind of Hatfield by marriage still takes the relation very seriously and still insists that the Hatfields were in the right in the dispute. I found that really funny and really telling, giving the ferocity of clan loyalties and how they propelled the feud. Yeah, man. The feud continues and some people's minds, I guess, in at least in argumentative form, just hawk folks, still not taking guff from dogfolk. Thanks to everyone who for enjoying the TimeStug private

Starting point is 01:58:48 close to the Curious Facebook group, and those finding the Discord group, obviously on Discord, link to both places and today's episode description, get in there and mingle with some like-minded meat sacks, don't start no feuds. TimeStug is like a fun school, then those are the places they're like a fun recess. Hail Membrot.

Starting point is 01:59:07 Next up, topic-wise, the space lizard selected Pinkerton Detective Agency. 19th century American history continues. Might be some more banjo, I don't know, might not, might not, might be. Pinkerton's America's first detectives chased down a fair amount of wild west outlaws. Laudolish.

Starting point is 01:59:24 The Pinkerton's actually inspired the term private eye. The Pinkerton agency first made its name in the late 1850s for hunt down outlaws, providing private security for the new railroad business. As the company's profile grew, it's iconic logo, a large, unblinking eye, accompanied by the slogan, we never sleep, gave rise to the term private eye, a nickname for detectives. 1856, a little more trivia, 23 year old widow, Kate Warren, walked into Pinkerton's Chicago's office, requested a job as detective, founder Alan Pinkerton was hesitant to hire a female investigator, but gave in after Warren convinced him that she could quote, warm out secrets

Starting point is 01:59:59 in many places to which it was impossible for male detectives to gain access. True to her word, Warren proved to be an expert working undercover, once bust in a thief by cozying up to his wife and convincing her to reveal the location of the loot. During another case, you got to suspect to feed her crucial information by disguising herself as fortune teller. That's awesome. Pingerton, with later list warners, one of the best investigators he had ever hired. Following her death in 1868, he even had her buried in his family plot.

Starting point is 02:00:28 So you want a little more than just trivia? You want some jokes? Want some story? Listen next week or watch on YouTube. Time now for Time Sucker Updates. Updates? Get your time sucker updates. All right, a lot of good ones say, first update.

Starting point is 02:00:45 It's new World War One info from World War One of Seth's time, sucker Sam Little, who writes, Dear Master Sucker and Knight, Arons of Nimrod. My name is Sam, I've been a fan of your comedy long before Time Sucker, and like many others, I was thrilled when you started it, and I've loved it since. Thank you very much.

Starting point is 02:01:00 I listen to my job as a letter carrier for USPS, and I'm pretty sure the people think I'm insane on account of me bursting out laughing every 10 minutes or so. Hey, I'm in rot. Now, I just wanna say, I've been waiting for the World War one suck for a long time, and you absolutely crushed it. Oh, that's nice. I definitely gave it my all.

Starting point is 02:01:16 Sure, I missed a lot of stuff, but it's such an interesting and important part of history that often gets overlooked, and you really did it just as I hope you and the rest of the time so the community learned a lot from it. If I may, I just wanted to share some other interesting details as to why the U.S. finally entered the war. And I did not know this stuff, so thank you for sharing this. Many people think that I was the sinking of the Lutzwana, or like,

Starting point is 02:01:35 I don't have, I didn't put phonetic there. I think I kind of got that right. That big ship. That finally drove us to it. But as you know, that happened in May, 1915, and it would be almost another two years before the US declared war in Germany. It is also important to note that the US was sending weapons and munitions to Britain via civilian ships. Germany knew this and did warn the US to see sending supplies. To ease tensions, Germany began to restrict the amount of U-boat used, but the war dragged on.

Starting point is 02:02:00 They were preparing to restore unrestricted submarine warfare, which all but confirmed a US intervention, and it was the Zimmerman Telegram that really drove the nail in it. I'm sure you came across this while, propulsing your research. A German foreign, I actually didn't. Not the specific Zimmerman telegraphs. A German foreign minister, Arthur Zimmerman, attempted to strike a deal with Mexico, vowing to reestablish the territories lost to them in the Mexican-American war.

Starting point is 02:02:24 The message was intercepted by English codebreakers and shared with their allies. Mexico also rejected the terms. On May 1, 1917, it was released to the American public in one month later the U.S. declares war. Here comes cheeseburgers in freedom, you jerry bastards. Fasting and stuff and like with most pivotal moments in history, you got to ask yourself what ifs? What if the U. the US decided to remain neutral until the end? What would Russia like today if Lenin and the Bolsheviks did not get to support needed to take control of the provisional democratic government? Would there be more or less Suburban Mexican family restaurants if Mexico did declare war who knows?

Starting point is 02:03:00 Thank you so much for listening and thanks again for this great podcast Do my best to spread the suck at work my friends and family was bummed to have missed your show in Providence. Uh, but I hope Yamo be back. Yamo be back. Rodale and Namo be back. Uh, Sam, thank you, Sam. Uh, yeah, I didn't know about the telegram. Uh, I knew the gist about the submarine stuff and it, uh, I knew that the government, the

Starting point is 02:03:23 US government obviously was getting, obviously getting pissed that German U-boats were sinking some of their, you know, people's supply ships, some of their merchants' supply ships going out there. Now a scary ghost story update coming in from Phil Foster. I love these. This is from that, you know, Ed and Lorraine demonologist Suck. Hello, master sucker. Spaceless or filled in the real world.

Starting point is 02:03:44 Beef steak on discord. And I have a short ghost story for you that all these other ones manage to drag. I have a short ghost or a few that all these other ones manage to drag out of place in my mind where I hide scary shit. When I was around 12 and my sister was 10, she kept telling us that she would see multiple all black shadow people in her room at night. Yeah, you know, I didn see multiple all black shadow people in her room at night. Yeah, you know, I, uh, I didn't freak out my shadow people.

Starting point is 02:04:07 She would say that they would not notice her at all, but seemed like it was some kind of social party. Then one time she told me about something that is currently making my skin crawl, uh, one night she saw one of them bend down to one of the family cats, the shadow person, and reached out to Pettit and the cat reacted. The shadow person stroked the cat, and if you have ever petted a cat from head to tail, they always have their butts raised up,

Starting point is 02:04:29 and she said that happened, I have no reason to doubt it, but man, freaky thinking shadow people might have been petting our pets, also you'd better invite Joe Motherfucking Paisley in on the Internet, until your podcast together starts, or I will softly cry in a corner and you will have to live without having making

Starting point is 02:04:48 a fellow bearded man, or you have to live with having made a fellow bearded man cry. Suck on, suck master, Phil Foster. Thank you Phil. Oh man, you're probably crying today. You're probably crying now here in this. Yeah man, we'll have Paisley pop back in for the Internet until we can get our podcast up.

Starting point is 02:05:03 Hilarious email from Cade Rittenhouse. Cade wrote, dear, great, time-stalker, my name is Cade Rittenhouse. I'm a 19 year old college student trying to become an electrician. I'm gonna go for you. I have to tell you, I was listening to your woody bit. Wheeeee! With my headphones in during my business break room, or with my headphones in in my business break room while I was listening to my boss.

Starting point is 02:05:28 The corporate boss was in the break room having a meeting with my boss and some of the higher ups where another employee friend of mine comes in and ripped the headphones out of my phone. Normally the podcast would pause, but this time it did not. So Woody, your Woody bit played out loud in front of my boss and the higher ups. My boss looked at me with anger and I was terrified that I was gonna get fired when one of the higher ups looked at me like I was crazy and then one of them

Starting point is 02:05:49 said, well, it's his big deal. Ha! I was shocked. I clocked in to work. I was so shocked. I clocked in to work and quickly got to my post. I was working there for 20 minutes and then my boss called me into his office. I was scared I was going to lose my job and then I went into his office and my boss was

Starting point is 02:06:03 smiling. He said the man who laughed was a local merchant of sorts that they've been trying to get a deal with and that playing your podcast got to help get us to deal. My boss was so happy. He gave me a raise. Asking what the podcast was, I said time suck and a week later, my boss and I are talking about Chikitilo. Are you fucking serious? I hope I mean, you don't say you're kidding in this message. I want this to be true so badly, and I'm assuming it is. You say, so thank you, Master of Time,

Starting point is 02:06:29 sucker, Cade, Ridden House. That is fucking amazing. Ah, I love it! I love how this is spreading. And I have heard, you know, long other messages from people who have got messages, people of like, you know, some kid in the classroom, or some teacher, you know, maybe saying that he's,, you know, some kid in the classroom, or some teacher, you know,

Starting point is 02:06:45 maybe saying that he's sharing something from time suck in the classroom, like a high school classroom, and then one of them in some of the high school kids is saying stuff like, we all needed that, or hail Nimrod, and that kind of shit, it's fucking crazy. Now another World War One update, sweet, some sweet marine info coming in hot

Starting point is 02:07:01 from Time Sucker John House. Dearest suckest of all suckers, thanks for being awesome. A bit of fannier since crazy with the capital F of long wanted to see and was surely sad the Massachusetts show had to be canceled. Yes, sorry about that as well. But I we do have I'm 99% sure a Boston date on the books. I think I just asked Lindsey about that day to day.

Starting point is 02:07:19 And I'm I yes, I'm 99.9% positive. I'm going back to Boston in the first half of the year and for a couple nights instead of just one. And then you wrote peer pressure intended. Yeah, okay. I just listened to your World War One suck and I had a few things I thought you'd find interesting. I apologize to the last two paragraphs. You know, a bit preach. Oh, yeah, and I did like Cut those out just because it was a little bit longer. There's more info And yeah, the two paragraphs were just referencing where to get information. And John did share some really good things. Yes. And then maybe the one American news is this is maybe they don't always share the most unbiased information. So yeah, it's such a thing with

Starting point is 02:07:58 man trying to find info. You know, you find what you think is unbiased. It might be unbiased. Someone else will think it's biased. by still it's just it's so hard but john did share the end of this and i didn't uh... i'm not going to read it now but he did share like the ap has their own app so rather than get like ap articles through other newspapers you can go directly to the source i mean they are what america's biggest media institution i do think it's very least most of the time they really get things right.

Starting point is 02:08:27 And I have enjoyed that. So thank you for adding that to my research repertoire. Okay, anyway, the Battle of Belu would is a noted battle in Marine Corps history. Some consider it the battle that brought initial claim to the Marines and developed the mythos surrounding them that we know of today. During that offensive, we lost more Marines in that battle

Starting point is 02:08:43 than in all our wars before combined. Still, the Marines pushed through and captured ground via hand-to-hand combat in incredible sharpshooting. During that offensive, two noted things happened. First, Dan Daly, two-time Medal of Honor recipient and outstanding suck candidate was in charge of a unit that was pinned down by intense fire rather than retreat or stay put. He famously yelled, come on, you son of a bitches.

Starting point is 02:09:03 Or no, come on, you sons of bitches. Do you want to live forever? Bad ass, man. Second, a story emerged in the Battle of Bellewood that said the Marines were so fearsome with their sharpshooting into Germans, nicknamed them Devil's Dogs. Oh yeah, I do remember coming across that

Starting point is 02:09:19 and another suck at thing. Well, some claim this name was actually American propaganda. I prefer to think that the, as the Marines of World War One commence bad assay, the spirit of the original devil dogboat jangles imbued them with rights as power, praiseable jangles. Yeah, maybe he was back there. The day before veterans day is November 10th, also known as the Marine Corps birthday.

Starting point is 02:09:39 I did know that, but yeah, thanks for reminding me to share that. The most famous of Marine generals during World War One was General John A. Lejeune, who right after World War I decreed that the Marines would forever celebrate their birthday on November 10th with the birthday message in cake. The celebration is carried out today

Starting point is 02:09:54 regardless of presence and combat. I won't bore you with the whole details of the ceremony, but know that November 10th is a glorious day and it's got some ties to World War I. Another famous Marine in World War I was smiddlyly Butler, aka the would be King of America. He was a major general who received two Medal of Honours during his career for General Badassery and is talked of in the same conversational tone as Chesty Puller. He also wrote the book and coined the phrase War as a racket.

Starting point is 02:10:20 Anyway, during the Great Depression, the US, during the Great Depression, excuse me, US veterans of World War One wanted advanced payment of bonds. They were promised to them the bonds, however, couldn't be paid until 1940s due to economics, mumbo jumbo. That of course didn't matter to disabled vet, vet struggling with PTSD and poverty, and this led to the creation of the bonus army that marched on Washington to demand payment. When the bonus army formed, it was potentially powerful fighting force. If someone wanted to use it that way, as these were all hardened fighters, war veterans.

Starting point is 02:10:50 Years later, a bunch of industrialists actually decided that they wanted to perform a military coup on the American government to install a fascist government and recruited Smetli Butler to manipulate and lead what was likely the bonus army to overthrow the government. Butler told them that they could go fuck themselves, report it everything to Congress, Congress did not investigate much given that the industrialists were some of the most powerful men in America, but this is now known as the business plot. And was a time that we were dangerously close to a very bad situation. I may have some details wrong, but this would be a great suck because it's actual conspiracy

Starting point is 02:11:23 that actually happened. Love the podcast here. Semperifiable. Jangles, John, House. Thank you, John. And yeah, I didn't share anything, but I got a lot of details out there to people, and I appreciate you writing in. And yeah, and finding good media is important, because not all news is fake news, meat sex.

Starting point is 02:11:40 Still a lot of investigative journalist truth seekers out there. You know, you don't want to go to a place where you just can't trust anybody. Wrestling update from Heath Major, uh, a new world order wrestling update, uh, who says, uh, he says, or you ham and egg are Gibroni motherfucker. Uh, kidding, sucked him as prime. I hate to correct you, but I feel I must. In the new world order suck, you stated that the wrestling N.W.O. was a faction in world class wrestling, AKA world wrestling federation when an actual fact they were part of world championship wrestling

Starting point is 02:12:10 which was purchased by the world federal wait by purchase by the world wrestling federation owner Vince McMahon. Definitely a fucking space lizard illuminati wacko in 2000 world class championship wrestling was a completely different wrestling company. The former pro wrestler and me wanted you to know. Yeah, you know, I think I feel like I just misspoke in that the way it was kind of written And a lot of articles was it was tied to the WWF and the WCW, but I probably did sports trade as they were like The same entity, but yes, yes, they were not thank you and then you heathwrights Thank you for allowing us to smell what the suck is cooking each and every week. And I'll see your candy ass next time you're in Portland, Oregon for a no row barbed wire,

Starting point is 02:12:52 bed of nails, barbed wire, bored, raining, thump, tack, time bomb death match. Oh God, please don't. But thank you for sending that in. Now another World War One update from Canadian, or some Canadian veteran loves, excuse me, coming in from a Canadian sucker, Melissa Keane. Melissa writes, Hi, Master Sucker, I just finished the World War One episode as a connect from the true North strong and free.

Starting point is 02:13:13 I couldn't help but notice the distinct lack of Canadians mentioned. The victory at Vimy Ridge was only one example of the epic bad asteris that was Canada and the Great War. The Canadian War effort was ultimately what led to Canada being recognized as a state and the signing of the armistice was the first time that Canada signed a treaty on its own behalf. I did not know that. Thank you for sharing that.

Starting point is 02:13:34 The storm, Trooping you mentioned, is what gained Canadians, the nickname of storm troopers because even though even through pissed soaked rags, we were bad ass. I love worshiping at the feet of Nimrod. Hail Nimrod! Hell no, right. While cleaning my igloo, while cleaning my igloo and taking my dogs, let it to the town. Much love, eh? Melissa Kite.

Starting point is 02:13:52 Ah, thank you, Melissa. I love Kite, you, man. Yeah, I gotta get back up to Canada again. I gotta figure some shit out with the Canadian government and I gotta get back up there. Now a shout out request from Conor Forbes says, Hey there, Suckmaster. November the 8th was my girlfriend's birthday.

Starting point is 02:14:06 It was also the day the campfire started in Northern California. She and her family lost everything, Jesus. Like so many others in the communities of Paradise and Magalia, suffice to say she had a pretty shitty birthday. Yeah, I bet. And I thought maybe reached out to you and asking to have her shout it out on the suck

Starting point is 02:14:22 would be a cool way to make up for it. We're both faithful suckers and space lizards met you at Sacramento back in May. Her name is Madison and she would be at she would absolutely melt if you mentioned her. I realized this probably a long shot of why the hell not sincerely faithful space lizard Connor Forbes Connor. Thank you for writing in man and yes Madison happy late birthday. Sorry that you had such a terrible, terrible, terrible last month and hope things are getting better. Hope insurance is fixing some stuff,

Starting point is 02:14:49 hope you're in a good spot and I hope you're safe. And then last message, another shout out, oh actually, yeah, yeah, this is last message. Sorry man, last message, another shout out coming in from Ken, hey Dan, quick note from Grand Rapids, Michigan. I was able to catch your show at Dr. Grins' last weekend, Friday at 8 p.m.,

Starting point is 02:15:06 my wife and I were supposed to be there with friends of ours, but the wife of my friend wasn't feeling well, so she was at the hospital getting tested. My friend was at the show, but then had to leave before you took stage because he found out his wife needed to have her gall bladder removed immediately. Everything went well with her surgery, and she is on the mend.

Starting point is 02:15:23 I love the dedication, by the way, that she went to the hospital for possible surgery. She's like, yeah, baby, I'm gonna see you after the fucking show. We got to see comments. Um, man, thank you. I'm not one to ask for a shout out. I have never emailed anyone for something like this, but I know my friend would think it's cool to get some love from you.

Starting point is 02:15:38 Sending prayers, good wishes to his wife, Amy, that she'll be back up and feeling better. My friend's name is Abe. Abe and Amy. And he is a card carrying space lizard. And I like, like I said, a huge fan of yours. Thanks for the time, Dan. Great showing grand rapids. Thanks for closing with one of my favorite bits, jury duty.

Starting point is 02:15:52 The world needs a little more chicken Joe. Bok, bo, blah, blah. Bok, bok. And Ken. Ah, well man, thanks for sending that in Ken. And Abe, man, thank you so much, dude. Yeah, huge shout out to you. Thanks for being so dedicated that you were still coming,

Starting point is 02:16:06 even though your wife wasn't feeling good, I'm glad she's feeling better now and Amy, how fucking dare you get sick during my goddamn show! But you ever fucking do that again. But other than that, I think you're great, but don't ever get sick. You guys, just in general, it really chaps my ass when you guys get sick and when you don't feel good

Starting point is 02:16:26 And when things don't go well in your life. I don't care for it I like it when time suckers are only kicking ass. So knock it off have everything be great Always okay, that's what I am that's what I am the happiest when you are all also the happiest But seriously, I hope you're feeling better soon Amy and thanks to everyone who sends a message Man, you know if you don't hear your shout out, it's not because we don't care a promise. Sometimes we just get a lot of them coming in. Sometimes it's a random timing of when they come in compared to when I'm prepping the

Starting point is 02:16:52 show. But we appreciate all the messages. Thanks for being the best meat sacks on our for sure. There is no real debate. It is definitely around planet love you guys. Thanks, time suckers. I need a net. We all did. Talk to you next week, time suckers. Don't get dragged into an over a decade long, murderous feud this week.

Starting point is 02:17:16 Hope again that you had a great Thanksgiving this past week and keep on sucking Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding,

Timesuck with Dan Cummins - 115 - Hatfield-McCoy Feud

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