Timesuck with Dan Cummins - 369 - Larry Hall: Serial Killer or "Wannabe"?

Episode Date: October 9, 2023

Is Larry Hall, currently incarcerated in federal prison on a charge of kidnapping for the purposes of sexual gratification, one of America's most prolific serial killers? Or a serial confessor to murder? A, as some local police who initially interrogated him believed, a wannabe? The true story of Larry Hall and FBI informant Jimmy Keene's attempts to get him to confess to murder, behind the Apple+ TV series, Black Bird. CLICK HERE TO WATCH MY NEW SPECIAL ON YOUTUBE! Trying to Get BetterGet tour tickets at dancummins.tv Watch the Suck on YouTube:  https://youtu.be/cmTu2FPT818Merch: https://www.badmagicmerch.comTimesuck Discord! https://discord.gg/tqzH89vWant to join the Cult of the Curious private Facebook Group? Go directly to Facebook and search for "Cult of the Curious" in order to locate whatever happens to be our most current page :)For all merch related questions/problems: [e-mail] (copy and paste)Please rate and subscribe on iTunes and elsewhere and follow the suck on social media!! @timesuckpodcast on IG and http://www.facebook.com/timesuckpodcastWanna become a Space Lizard?  Click here: https://www.patreon.com/timesuckpodcastSign up through Patreon and for $5 a month you get to listen to the Secret Suck, which will drop Thursdays at Noon, PST. You'll also get 20% off of all regular Timesuck merch PLUS access to exclusive Space Lizard merch. You get to vote on two Monday topics each month via the app. And you get the download link for my new comedy album, Feel the Heat. Check the Patreon posts to find out how to download the new album and take advantage of other benefits

When Jimmy Keane in his early 30s was thrown into prison for 10 years on charges of drug dealing and weapons possession and Lost all of his possessions. He thought that his life was over Jimmy had been a big name in the Chicago area drug scene beginning in high school when he started selling marijuana to rich kids So he could keep up with their lifestyle a poor student who played multiple varsity sports and played them very well Jimmy was popular, but he wanted more than that. He wanted to be the man driving expensive cars, wearing expensive clothes, all that. And he turned to a life of crime to get that. A life of crime that turned out to be very profitable soon. The young man was pulling in hundreds of thousands of tax-free dollars a year, rubbing shoulders with celebrities and the children of politicians and anyone

who wanted to get their hands on some of his product. Jimmy would later claim that he was always searching for a way out though, but that none of his legitimate ventures seemed to work out as well as drug dealing. Crime paid until it didn't. In 1996, Jimmy was arrested by the FBI and the DEA prior to a sentencing, keen refused and declined any cooperating deals that would require him to act as an informant against anyone, believing in honor among steves. And that belief would bite him in the ass. Instead of being sentenced to a couple years as he was expecting, he was sentenced to 10

years in prison by a federal prosecutor Larry Beaumont. Jimmy felt like he'd been fucked. But then the FBI realized that they could use him. They had a suspected serial killer in prison in Indiana native named Larry Hall Larry who appeared to most of the world as a mild manner janitor and civil war enthusiast Was suspected of killing up to 40 women some sources now say up to 50 Including a college student named Trisha rightler whose body has never been found Though it was assumed that she had been killed due to her bloody clothes found near the spot where she disappeared.

Trisha Wightler's case, her Trisha Wightler's case, excuse me, made national news and the FBI wanted to prove that Larry Hall, as they suspected, had murdered her. They desperately wanted to find another reason to keep Larry behind bars in case he wanted to appeal in another case. The kidnapping and suspected murder of a 15 year old girl named Jesse Roach. The FBI had a simple question for Jimmy. Would he use his charm to help them elicit a confession in exchange for time taken off of his sentence?

He would have to do what we do so many weeks here. Wade into the mind of a dirt bag. But instead of doing it on a podcast, he would have to do it in real life in person. He'd be getting to know Larry, the man born to a family that believed he could do no wrong despite most people outside of his family, finding him creepy as shit. Larry was a man who pined after the girls, his twin brother Gary actually dated, a man who had grown up with a literal grave digger for a father who suffered from night tears, speech impediments, and compulsive bedwetting.

Larry would graduate from petty acts of crying with his brother to allegedly a lot of rape, mutilation, and murder. Acts he told prosecutors weren't things he committed in real life. They were just merely bad dreams, but FBI agents and others were positive that these bad dreams left real dead bodies in their wake, that his dreams were horrific nightmares for others. The gruesome, strange story of Larry Hall and the unlikely story of Jimmy Kean today on another true crime, the truth is truly sometimes at least just as strange as fiction, if not stranger addition of time suck.

This is Michael McDonald and you're listening to time suck. You're listening to time suck. Happy Monday, meet sex. Welcome or welcome back to the cold of the curious. I am Dan Cummins. It's the Suck nasty America's foremost, Bon Jovi historian and impersonator. Capitalist shell and you are listening to time suck. And I don't want to do any announcements today. Gonna be cutting back on those and just focus on the sweet, sweet content. Hail, Nimrod, Hail Lucifina, praise about jangles. Beat, Triple M and Let's F**king Go.

Now for a serial killer who is so prolific, well suspected, serial killer. Thought to be so prolific, if the 40 or 50 or so murders believed to be committed by him are accurate, he's one of the most prolific serial killers in American history. He's nowhere near the realm of serial killers such as Colombia's Louise Gerovito the beast proven to have killed 193 victims and thought to have possibly killed over 300 or another Columbia nightmare. Pedro Lopez. We sucked him. The monster of the Andes

also thought to have killed 300 or so victims. The monster of the Andes also taught to have killed 300 or so victims. Mikhail Popkov of Russia also beats him out at 78 proven victims with 83 victims being his suspected total. But you know, the total does put Larry Hall on the neighborhood of killers far more well-known than he is like Gary Ridgeway, proven to have killed 49 victims and Alexander Peshushkin, the chessboard killer who suck both Alexander and Gary, who murdered 49. Indeed, Larry Hall may have killed more than such commonly known true crime names as previous

suck subjects. John Wayne Gacy, 33 proven murders, Ted Bundy, with 20 proven victims, and Jeffrey Domer, with 16 proven kills. It is thought, according to later confessionsessions that Larry murdered his first victim in 1979 and his last victim would be killed in 1993. That's 14 years of serial killing, averaging about three victims a year. Worth pointing out here that there are simply

too many victims to cover in one timeline. We're also telling a cohesive, compelling narrative. So we'll include the victims with the most documentation of their stories and those who are most firmly believed to be Larry's victims instead of somebody else's. Let's begin. Larry Hall's potential victim count is particularly insane considering that Larry, at least a quick glance doesn't seem to have been much of a criminal mastermind. Though he took detailed notes about his hunting grounds, places like college campuses around

his hometown of Wabash, Indiana, and made lists for himself with things he had to do, like dispose of evidence and clean out his rape murder van. He also seemed to lose his cool and make easily avoided mistakes. And you can also argue that riding out a list, reminding yourself to clean out your fucking rape murder van also eliminates you from being a criminal mastermind, right? Maybe keep that note inside your head

where no one else can see it, read it. To do list March 9th, 1984. One, change sheets if wet. Two, take shower. Three eat lucky charms or other food. Four drink water, other liquid. Five smell underwear put on ones that don't make me gag. Six clean up rape murder van. Seven take rape murder van and for oil change eight dispose of rape murder evidence nine have a great time at civil war reenactment he didn't actually refer to his van as a rape murder van by the way but the note which I'll read

later doesn't look good for a suspect you know suspected serial killer somebody suspect in the string of murders. Larry was also spotted around numerous of his suspected crime scenes and he got caught stalking young women by numerous people over and over during the course of his serial killing career. People who would get his license plates, I'll report into the police when he set off their stranger danger, who the fuck is that creep alarm? So how did that guy manage to escape detection for so long? The answer may be tied to a very specific hobby of his.

In the early 80s, Larry became obsessed with civil war reenactments. An interest that soon expanded to include all kinds of war reenactments like the Revolutionary War and maybe some other battles. He would even appear in an extra, or as an extra in a couple of movies about the civil war. Though you'd think that a man wandering around with a 19th century style mutton chops

would make him stick out more as hobby provided him with the means for killing. Indeed it would be Chris crossing the country to attend these kinds of events and he attended so many that would enable Larry to kill across state lines, confusing authorities who didn't realize that all these isolated seeming disappearances in most cases were actually the possible product of one killer. Also didn't fit the bill as far as being one type of killer, making him harder to pin down.

We've talked about organized versus disorganized killers here before. Right, killers who commit crimes methodically, planned with a toolkit at their disposal, a clear head, versus killers who kill in the spur of the moment, often in a state of psychosis. Larry seemed to drift back and forth somewhere between these two things, fitting into both and also neither. He was organized with the van at his disposal and his serial killers to-do list, stuff like checking for the cops,

the map of places to go to, to look for victims, but also disorganized, choosing to abort the planet the last minute, or simply dump the body when he got afraid of being caught. Larry didn't fit, excuse me, inside a lot of boxes. He wasn't the extroverted Ted Bundy type killer with a charming smile that hit a dangerous predator inside, nor was he a complete loner. He did have some friends, kind of, you know, especially those people involved in reenactments, wasn't particularly smart, but wasn't particularly stupid either. Though I said that Larry wasn't a mastermind, he may have been much smarter

than those around him gave him credit for. Indeed, informant Jimmy Keane would later say that he believed Jimmy was a lot smarter than the supposed 80 point IQ average he was assumed to have. So who was, or rather, since he's still alive, who is Larry Hall? Was Larry simply playing up the dumb janitor thing to get everyone else to think he was harmless? Did he rely on his small stature and sheepish seeming nature to make girls think that he was harmless?

When he knew damn well, he could be a vicious predator. And then did he use cunning manipulative abilities to make police initially think there was no way this guy could be a killer. This fucking putts let alone a serial killer even when the evidence was right in front of their faces or is he truly kind of a dud a dud who's been blamed for a lot of heinous shit he really isn't intellectually capable of being able to pull off and get away with. Let's look at what we know about Larry. You can decide for yourself if he's a monster or just some misunderstood moron or neither or combination in today's time suck timeline. Shrap on those boots soldier, we're marching down a time suck timeline.

On December 11th 1962, Larry and his twin brother, Gary, it was kind of like have like the same first letter of rhyme. It seems like with so many twins. It's got to be like, you know, Danny and Donnie, Larry, Gary, born to Robert Hall and his wife, Aira Hall in Wabash, Indiana. What's curious are these halls related to name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name?

What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name?

What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name?

What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? What's your name? two hour drive from Indianapolis. Wahbash's claim to fame is that it's the first electrically lit town in the world, which happened in 1880. But a lot of people on the internet call bullshit on that. A lot of people say just the courthouse was lit, not the rest of the town, and that Buffalo, New York was the first town lit up in 1896. For a little town, Wahbash does have a lot of notable residents, like Hailu Safina, the most popular pinup model of World War II, Margie Stewart. She wants estimated that more than 94 million of her posters were distributed worldwide during the war. The founder of the massive international conglomerate, Fortune 500 company,

Honeywell, headquartered in Charlotte, North Carolina now is from Wabash, Mark C Honeywell, the founder from there, legendary country singer, Crystal Gale was not born in Wabash, but her family moved there when she was four and she did grew up there. Bunch of other actors, scientists, inventors, musicians, entrepreneurs, professional athletes are from Wabash. Larry spent and this motherfucker Larry spent his first few days in a neonatal intensive care unit due to a lack oxygen after his twin brother Gary quote, fit on him in the womb. That's what Larry said. And what's called a monocore, monocoreonic pregnancy.

Don't say that word very often. Situation in which identical twins share the same placenta. Only curves in about 0.3% of all pregnancies. In addition to a shared placenta, monocorionic twins have also had their circulatory systems intermingled in random and unpredictable ways. This can cause disproportionate blood supply resulting in twin to twin transfusion syndrome. That's the main complication of monocorionic twins, a lot of fucking syllables network. According to some degree, in roughly 20% of monocorionic twin cases. And I don't think I'm going to ever say that word again in rest of my life. One twin may fail to develop

a proper heart in this situation and become dependent on the pumping activity. The other twins heart, resulting in twin reversed arterial perfusion. If one twin dies in utero, blood accumulates and that twins body causing exanguination, lack of blood that leads to death of the remaining twin. But that, of course, did not happen, Larry, because, you know, he lived. He just needed a little extra blood

than the amount that he got when he was born. Then I might have fucked him up a little bit. Just maybe his brain didn't quite come together like it was supposed to. Larry was born a little bit different. How different will never fully know, but he definitely became a very odd duck as he grew up. He was born into a different kind of family as well. His father Robert, known professionally as Bobbert, caught. Old Robert gag here. No, not known as Bobbert. Robert worked as a sext Gag here, no, not known as Bobbert. Robert worked as a sexton for the false cemetery

on the Southwest side of Wabash. A sexton is an officer of a church or congregation charged with the maintenance of its buildings and or graveyard. The word sexton comes from a medieval Latin word, meaning custodian of sacred objects. Sounds pretty fancy. Not actually a real fancy job though,

more like a graveyard janitor On today's world grave digging and maintenance of the cemetery usually done by an outside contractor You know, there's a lot of like modern equipment General duties of a modern sexton include operating maintaining you know AC units hot water systems liaisons with contractors order and receiving supplies Small building repairs, you know, stuff like that. But that doesn't appear to be the case with Robert Hall. At fall cemetery in Wabash, things seem to have been a little more hands-on. Robert was a literal grave digger

and used a shovel. He dug graves year-round, made pretty good money doing it. It's good as local factory work, but with better perks. Best perk of the job was to get to live in the Sexton's house. A big shambling place with white clapboard shingles. Sat on a ridge, overlooking gravestones and mausoleums. Behind it lay a large green yard and a babbling brook. For most of those who grew up in the neighborhood, the Sexton and his wife were seen as, you know, fucking strange, creepy, intimidating figure.

It's like trolls and a fairy tale or goblins or something. Robert's overall appearance leaned right into that. Robert had a big broad face, large man with a ready complexion, burly body, made more powerful by his work. Some felt threatened by his gruff manner and the ever-present smell of beer on his breath. He would impress local boys by ripping catalogs and bell phone books in half as easily as most people could tear up an envelope. That creeped a lot of people out. His wife, Larry, and Gary's mother, who was named era, but went by her middle name of Bernice, was remembered as being a morbidly

obese woman with a face described as being pinched and a sharp tongue, especially sharp in defense of her rambunctious twin sons. Strong mama picked in vibes with her. Remember her from the Robert Pickensuck, the filthy mother of Vancouver Candace, filthy pig farm and seer hulk killer? By the willet, by the willet! Why'd you clean all the shit in a blood bottle willet? Get my town's boots, have a clean of front-butt by the willet! I still can be with that out of their favorite character and other people are Oh, she's in a blood bottle, Wille, give my town's boots, have a green of front-butt-butt-butt-wille. I still get people who say that was their favorite character. And other people are like,

thank God you fucking never did that voice anymore. Well, that's the day I guess. Yeah, she wasn't exactly a looker and her personality seems to have been less attractive than her physical appearance. The halls were not exactly, you know, pillars looked up to by the rest of the community. Their kids not quite the cool kids, making them stand out even more.

When her twin sons were born, the halls were considered, uh, pretty old to be having babies. Robert was 40. Bernice was 33. Wouldn't be a big deal now. Most places, but, uh, something to gossip about then. And Bernice already had a 16 year old son from her first marriage, Eugene Clow, or Eugene Chloe.

I believe it's Clow. Uh, he'd split time between Robert and Bernice's home and his father's house growing up, due to not being around all the time and being so much older than Garebear and Lairbear, doesn't seem like Eugene was ever particularly close with his younger half-brothers. Robert and Bernice, goblins or not, did seem to be pretty good parents, at least in some ways. They dooted on their twin boys. Ross Davis, who became one of the boys' best friends, but really Gary's best friend.

Remember that he was attracted more to their toys than the twins initially. They always had something, he says, like a mini bike, or a go-cart, or a dirt bike. Things my parents couldn't afford to give me. You could always go over to their house and ride and hang out with them and have a fun time. But also, in other ways, things at home, not so good.

Things were a little gross actually. The house was a big place, but it was a dump. David says, it was like a path to walk through. Stuff was piled up everywhere. Mrs. Hall was always having a rummage sale. And we used to joke that they lived inside a rummage sale. All the years I knew the family, they would eat out every day, oh, excuse me, all the years I knew the family, I never once saw her do any cleaning. They would eat

out every day because she was too lazy to cook. That's why they never saved a penny. And he doesn't hold back here. He just says she was just a big fat lady who sat around the house all day and did nothing but yell and stir up a lot of trouble. Man, don't hold back, Ross. Yeah, Mama Hall was dirty. She was filled even also very protective. Apparently, whenever people complained about how her boys acted, Bernice would go full fucking Karen on him. Her little boys could do no wrong in her eyes. And as they progressed through elementary school, they, they did start doing

quite a bit of wrong. Started out with fairly harmless pranks, such as leaving a wallet stuff with money in the middle of the street, then using some fishing line to jerk it back to the hedges, when drivers got out of their cars to investigate. I actually love that. That sounds fun. I remember hearing about similar pranks, but never took the time to try and pull them off. They next directed their hoaxes at the police. This is pretty good. Dressing up dummies and placing them in the gutter as though they were somebody who had just been hit by a car.

I know that's fucked up, but it's super funny to me. It reminds me of my buddy, Chris and I, I lived in Las Vegas, my freshman software was a high school playing catch with a little rubber football by the side of a busy road. Where cars be zipping along back and forth about 45, 50 miles an hour. And we would intentionally like miss the football, right? Like go to catch it right by the road and throw, they would throw it really hard, right? Chris, they're really hard, right?

They're really hard at him. And then the other person misses it and intentionally just pegs the side of a car, hits the windshield, maybe rolls into the street. You know, when it would do that sometimes, when it would go under someone's car, it would rattle and sound a lot like gunshots, scare the shit out of a lot of drivers. Could it really hurt someone?

I mean, I guess could have killed someone, but didn't. Not recommending doing that, but holy shit, do we laugh our little mistkrant asses off. Meanwhile at West Ward Elementary School, weird that the name's Ward and Hall show up in this episode, Larry displayed anti anti social behavior and shuffled academically Due to his low IQ reportedly in the low 80s Now low 80s is classified as borderline mental disability on most IQ charts I think it was actually a lot smarter than that it is

He was T's con see for neither being slower than the other kids or at least coming across that way and for frequent night tears Speech impediments had an odd way of talking and compulsive bed wedding. According to his brother Gary, Larry never had any friends or any girlfriends. And I know I just mentioned a childhood friend earlier. When I say friends, it seems like the people that are mentioned as friends are friends of Gary and maybe just tolerated Larry. Gary did not struggle through childhood the way his twin did. He had above average intelligence, good hygiene, apparently not the case with Larry. He was good looking popular enough with some of the girls as he got older. It wasn't a

jock, didn't plan any teams, but was athletic and cool enough to be popular with other boys. He was the good hall kid. Larry was the black sheep of a family that included a grave digger who ripped phone books in half With spare hands at a morbidly obese matriarch who seems like she may have had OCD hoarding issues and maybe some anger issues As Larry and Gary got older Larry bear and gear bearer their pranks led to crimes At age 15 the hallbrows were arrested for breaking the windows of a downtown storefront Later Larry would be suspected of additional acts of burglary, arson, other petty crimes around Wabash. Wabash

detective Ron Smith and his partner were assigned to most of these cases, and they would end up questioning each boy individually. Usually teenagers crumble quickly under those conditions of questioning. Smith says, but with these guys, he said, took a long time before we could crack the Hall brothers. They were just kids, but they held guys, he said, took a long time before we could crack the hallbrothers. They were just kids, but they held up better than hardened criminals. Even over something as petty as broken windows. I think that's something to remember going forward. I mean, these dudes wouldn't easily confess over, or you know, confess to something as small

as a, as a broken window. How hard might one of them work to keep a murder secret or a whole bunch of murders? Smith said that Larry was the first to crack and later explained that he confessed only to get the cops off his back and that most of the damage was really done by Ross Davis's older brother. Whatever the truth, the halls were the ones who had to cough up $500 for the damage, which was then a hefty sum, and Larry had to earn a back by mowing the lawn for his dad. And the boys were apparently terrified of their dad, who by this point was an alcoholic who,

if not physically abusive, was just a big intimidating dude that they worried, you know, might crack open a can of whoop ass on them. And their teen years, the twins continued to be inseparable, actually seem to grow closer as they got older. As teens, they bonded further with a shared passion for hobbies that followed them into adulthood, began with collecting old beer cans, which apparently was a craze that swept through a lot of the American blue collar communities in the 70s. That's funny while searching the woods and fields around Wabash for beer cans,

they didn't already have sounds like a sounds like the poor kids version of collecting baseball cards or looking for coins with the metal detector. The twins began to keep an eye out for Indian arrowheads too and that would come to mean more to them than the beer detector. The twins began to keep an eye out for Indian arrowheads too. And that would come to mean more to them than the beer cans. They're dead. I always spoke about them having Miami Indian blood. And although he cannot point to any specific ancestor, the twins themselves had jet black hair and eyes that many in the area identified as Native American. The twins avidly read stories about slow com and the Miami's greatest warrior chief little turtle

Imagine themselves to be Indian braves. They would hike and fish the reservoir area near their house Always keep an eye out for arrowheads. I Relate to that so much where I spent most of my childhood and Idaho you could find arrowheads You know in a lot of different places. I found several myself go look and form with other family members Which was nothing special by the way anyone who looked really hard would find them. And I was also told like a lot of people that I had native blood. Nope. Turned out I don't.

According to 23 and me, I also sometimes would wander to the woods pretending I was you know like following the footsteps of some proud warrior ancestor that you know turned out I didn't have, but fucking cool shit to think about that. It's cool despite Gary being totally okay mentally, both of them were still C and D students. Doesn't seem like either one of them really tried very hard in school, didn't care much about it. The two troublemakers wore their hair down

to their shoulders as they got older, like some goddamn commie hippies. And they hung out with other under supervised kids from the neighborhood and patiently biting time until graduation There's no record that they participated in extracurricular activities or even submitted photos for the junior and senior yearbooks didn't care Instead they spent their time cruising around town getting into trouble Gary off and ran his mouth got into fight sometimes winning sometimes getting his ass beat

silent awkward now acne rid-ridden Larry, not much of a brawler, but got into some fights as well. Ross Davis would say, you didn't want to push Larry into a corner. Perhaps the one responsible thing that Larry did was start looking for a job as a senior in high school, taking vocational courses and auto repair. From that, Larry developed a lifelong affection for Chrysler's and their parts, and he would become quite skilled in overall mechanical repair. His favorite car was 1967 Dodge Dart.

After they both graduated, 1981, Larry got a job locally as a janitor. 18 now, he'd still never been on a date. His brother, Gary Bear, on the other hand, had been on a lot of dates, which pissed Larry off. He was jealous of all the sex action Gary was getting. Any hated that the women, you know, the Gary saw took Gary away from him because Gary was his only real friend. Ross again, much more of a friend of Gary than Larry. And now Larry's jealousy and anger, you know, towards women possible anger might have led

to a murder. If he hadn't already killed the FBI believe for years that he killed his first victim during the summer of 1982. June 28th of 1992, Naomi Lee Kitter leaves Buffalo, Wyoming with several friends in route to Rollins, Wyoming. This is about 1200 miles from Wabosh, Indiana. She left behind a one year old daughter, Bobby with her parents while she went to find work. The group she traveled with decided to stay to travel a lot of hotel overnight. Then on the morning of June 29th,

Naomi apparently decided she needed to head back home to Buffalo. She couldn't stand to be separated from her daughter. She tells the group that she is going to hit Shike and then is never seen again. Naomi's family reported her missing July 1st, 1982. But then Buffalo police didn't take the case seriously. I thought the young mother probably just wanted to party and

didn't put a lot of effort into trying to find her. Unfortunately, not that necessarily they would have little over two months later, September 9th, an unidentified female body is found on what was formerly a Neutrona County, Wyoming commissioner Pinkie Ellis's land. Body was found unclothes and partially buried. Natrona County corner James Thorpen would determine that the body was in an advanced stage of decomposition, partially mummified and skeletonized. It was impossible to determine whether she had been sexually assaulted or to be able to fingerprint her for identification, but there was a little ambiguity about how she died. A wire was still wrapped

around her neck, which bore the telltale signs of strangulation. Two years later, 1904, the hallboy's father, Robert, was abruptly fired as a grave digger. The family immediately lost their housing, now they had to move to a shack with just one bedroom. With Larry's bed, yes, he is still living at home, crammed into the living room. Why was he fired? Well, he was caught having sexual the corpse. And then making the whole situation worse, after being arrested, he not only admitted that he did it, but said he'd been doing it for years.

Also said it wasn't sexual. He just wanted to create an army of the dead. He'd gotten his head somehow that if he had sex with corpses and then buried them during a full moon, they would be able to be reanimated and come back to life under his control. He'd be some kind of zombie king and charge of undead warriors that he could unleash against the people of Wabash as retribution for all the fucking mockery his family had received over the years. Or he'd been fucking up a lot because he was drunk. One of those things happened. I'll let you decide which one. Robert's drinking had begun

to impact his work. He'd been doing shit like putting bodies in the wrong grave sites and just calling it a day. Whatever they're dead. Gary meanwhile refused to move to the shack and decided to go live with his girlfriend. Unnamed and so are so she'd become pregnant with his daughter in 1995. The only child they will have together. And then they also get married briefly. Despite the upheavals and the twins relationship, they did manage one last bonding adventure before married life took a firm hold on Gary, a car trip out to the West Coast, along with another male friend to save money. They pitched 10s on campgrounds instead of stopping at motels. And along the way, the three, once picked up a woman, years later, Gary confessed to a

police detective that they took advantage of her in some fashion. He insinuated, if not outright claim, claimed that Larry raped her and also physically assaulted her. And Gary may have pressured Larry into trying to have sex with her. Whatever exactly happened, Gary would feel increasingly guilty about the incident as he got older, especially about the, especially about the impact it may have had psychologically on his twin. Or he may have already been murdering. Meanwhile, back at home, Gary bounced between several jobs while Larry went back to me and a janitor. He worked a night shift sweeping and cleaning numerous businesses around town that ranged

from banks to a variety of stores and factories. When necessary, he dragged plastic bags of trash from his cleanings back to his two-tone 84-dodge van for later disposal. When his direct employer suddenly died, his major account, the Farm Bureau Credit Union, rushed to make Larry an employee. He was so trusted that he had no supervisor, no requirement to punch in or out. If he had to report to anyone, it was directly to the general manager. So he's good at his job.

Again, he's very good at fixing stuff. Things at home at this time were getting pretty bleak for Larry. It's 22 years old, still living with his parents, sleeping in a filthy living room. Days are spent in suffocating, squalid, closed quarters with aging cranky folks. Sometime around 9.75 with a better salary from the credit union.

Now Larry takes advantage of any opportunity he can to get the fuck out of the house. Chris crossing around the country often to look for auto parts and maybe to find, you know, women to kill. And soon he gets another hobby that gives him more reason to travel. A 1986 TV program draws his attention to the world of civil war reenactments gary was surprised by this uh... new interest because larry had never come across before is a history buff also uh... you know

yeah just not yet not not much of a history guy not much of a uh... guy i mean i guess he saw this on tv but not much of a reader either you know wouldn't like follow up on this stuff really uh... but then he did with this instead his brother would later think or least tell detectives and others that Larry's new hobby was less about like warring acpens and more about being a cover for two things, a lack of personal hygiene and an opportunity to act more frequently on violent urges. I love the hygiene angle. I could just hop in the shower in the morning for a few minutes and apply soap to my body

and shampoo to my hair. And then once washed, I could apply the odorant to my armpits and brush my teeth for six years, so seconds. Or I could not do that. And I could spend many, many hours a week traveling around the Midwest pretending to be a civil war soldier and wear my stanch like a like a badge of honor a method acting commitment to character. Fucking weird way to hide B.O. if that was the case. Now before jumping back into sadly another murder, let us take a Mitchell sponsor break. Thanks for sticking around. Thanks for listening to our sponsors. If you in fact did, we return now to the fall of 1986, where Stinky Boy, Larry Hall is

likely snuffing out another young life. September 6, 1986, another murder is uncovered. The body of a young woman found nude, strangled, sexually mutilated, mutilated after death, in a cornfield near a summer field, Illinois by a farmer. Just two hours away from summer field, in Pittsfield, Illinois, is a civil war memorial honoring major Samuel Hayes, who died along with the third of his forces in Corinth, Mississippi, from Dissentary. He's brought back to Pitsfield to be buried in a monument was built in 1905.

The unidentified woman was referred to by detectives as the Summerfield Jane Doe buried in the Mount Help Cemetery under a gravestone that said Jane Doe known only to God We take over 20 years for the body to be identified as 26 year old Laliah Lali Chavez Lali was born in 1959 in Costa Rica At some point in her life she and her brother were adopted by a woman named Saunya Wilkomer and the three of them lived in Palo Alto, California. She attended Foot Hills College in Palo Alto and Winter and Spring of 1976. She volunteered with big

brothers, big sisters, had a jewelry making business on the side. Sounds like she was doing fucking great, awesome meat sack. Like previous victim Naomi Kitter, Lolli was a young mom. She'd given up a daughter for adoption in California back when she was in high school, just 18 years old. And then not long after that, things seemed to have gone a bit off the rails for Lolli. She was struggling. Southern Oregon State College Security officers arrested Chavez near the Ashland campus in July of 1979 for stealing a purse. Chavez then 20 did not list an address. By that point in their life,

Lolli had become a frequent runaway hitchhiking across the country to see her favorite bands, doing who knows what to pay for those concerts, and then she vanished. Less than half a year later, February 24th, 1997, Linda Weldy, is headed back from school in La Port, Indiana. And not heading back from high school, or even junior high, sadly heading back from grade

school. The 10 year old girl knew how to wait at the bus stop, catch the bus, and head back home. Not uncommon for a lot of latchkey kids in the 80s. I was one of them. Indeed, for a little while. Indeed, Linda was fiercely independent. She loved fishing and riding her bike, often setting out alone.

Her parents assumed that most kidnappings happened for ransoms. And since they were not rich and lived in an area where serious crimes were rare, where kids almost never just disappeared, they felt like they had nothing to worry about. The bus dropped into off and her home at McCleung Road, around 3.30 pm.

The bus driver and other kids saw her walk towards the family mailbox, then disappear around the curved gravel driveway to her home, which was hidden by trees. The driveway was just 250 yards, but Linda never made it home. Her mother's boyfriend, Robert and her 12 year old brother, were busy in the family's front yard,

installing an antenna. They assumed Linda went to a friend's house instead of coming directly home. Karen, Linda's mother, was working a late shift at her factory job. Karen wouldn't realize that Linda had made it home until she got home, asked Robert where Linda was and found out he had no idea.

Immediately they go to the police. For the next two weeks, they would try to hold on to hope that Linda was still alive, but then that illusion would be shattered three weeks later, March 17th. Linda's body was discovered along an abandoned railroad track nine miles away from where she was last seen near the town of Kingsbury, Indiana.

Investigators later think the hall was in that area at that time. Just like they think he was where or easily could have been where all the other murder victims I've mentioned and will mentioned were when they died or disappeared. Interestingly, two civil war training camps were located near La Port, training the ninth and 29th Indiana Volunteer Infantry Regiments. Still, for the time being, the connection to Hall would not surface. The identity of Linda's killer, still a mystery. Then just two months later, Hall may have struck again. June 4th, 1997, Wendy Louise felt and sister left their marrying Indiana home. Excuse me, to drive their parents to the airport.

16-year-old Wendy decided to stay behind. Maryena, less than 25 miles from Wabash, Larry's home base, and just a few miles from a reenactment site, he often visited. When Wendy's sister returned home, excited maybe to have the house to herself with her sister while their parents were on a business trip, Wendy was nowhere to be found. All her belongings, including her purse and her favorite sneakers were still in her bedroom. Still, the police considered her to be a runaway

and she's never been found. 1988, Larry joins a local group to portray the 19th Indian of volunteer infantry regiment, the Union Army's Iron Brigade, known for their distinctive, high, hardy hats, AKA a Model 1858 dress hats or Jeff Davis hats If you saw when you'd be like, oh, yeah, one of those With the folded brims and the bugle emblem

The 19th were a valiant if luckless crew who lost a lot of men Most of the iron brigade reenactments were fought in county parks around the Midwest They would set up on camp on Friday often sleeping in tents on grounds, then spend the rest of the weekend in uniform conducting drills and mock battles for the local residents and schoolchildren who stopped by to observe. For Larry, the events were a welcome break from his solitary lifestyle offering both camaraderie and a ready made antidote for his limited social skills. Sort of a large scale D&D cosplay. Since re-enactors were supposed to not only behave like civil war soldiers and training exercises, they were also encouraged to create elaborate alter egos and backstories with jobs and families

appropriate to infantrymen from Indiana in the 1860s. Larry loved that. He dove into his fake life, buying used books on regional civil war history, studying harder than he'd ever had studied in school. Larry went deep with his backstory. I wonder what it was. I bet he made himself a real tough guy. I want to be real like fake letters, right? They always wrote letters to their families from the war back then.

Maybe he's writing letters to a fake wife when he wasn't busy fake fighting and and fake battles December 16th 1862 My dear is Clara Bell Tizai your beloved Colonel Lawrence Duane Hall 19th Indiana Volunteer Infantry Regiment Union Iron Brigade We lost over 1000 men these past few days in Fredrick's burg, but doing our fret my darling, I made the Confederates pay dearly for their carnage.

Yes, we may have lost the battle, but I must have sent over a hundred rebel soldiers to their graves personally. My musket jammed early in the freight, and I was forced to go hand-to-hand, stabbing many a wild-eyed battle-hardened Confederate with my bayonet. And when that broke, I used my fisticuffs to knock many a man from this life to the next. O the humanity, O the horrors of war, truly it may be considered the most cruel and awful scourge which can be fallenation.

Heaven grant there being into it soon. Also, all the soldiers talk constantly about how cool I am. Like the coolest Colonel, and they've ever seen by miles, the most fearless, most muscular and sexy. I showed them a nude photograph of you that you sent to meet Derek's clear bail and I hope you are not too displeased. Some of the men fainted due to your natural beauty. The men are very excited for

me to return home from war and make love and have children with you. They can only imagine what kind of angels the two sexiest people on God's green earth could create. Finally, my dearest clairbella I have not with the bed. A single time in my service. And no one has commented nay once about heinous bodily odors. I miss you dearly, you have my heart forever. I'll be home as soon as I've won the war for God and country. Check under the fields in my mother's house to make sure she is there and still alive. Colonel Lawrence D. Wayne Hall, 19th Indiana Volunteer Infantry Regiment, Union Army, and Brigade.

You know maybe something like that. Ah, oh, that was fun for you, it was a little fun for me. Now back to something not so fun. Back to murder. Another young woman goes missing. 19 year old Paulette Sue Webster was walking home from a friend's house in Chester, Illinois, 11 p.m., September 2nd, 1988.

Wearing a light sweater, jeans, white sneakers, she heard along, maybe a little frightened. She's only about five feet tall, about 110 pounds so can what. She has spent the last couple of years bouncing around between her parents' home, her uncle's house, Wyoming, and a roommate situation in Chester. Couldn't afford to live away from her parents' house long term. Adult life was proving to be, you know, was not excuse me proving to be what Paul had, was not, excuse me, proving to be what Paulette had hoped it would be.

A lot harder than she expected it to be. Recently a couple of her friends had gotten pregnant and Paulette, who had surgery to remove a growth from her abdomen, was starting to believe she might be infertile, as doctors had implied she might be. All of that made her sad, but she was still determined to give, you know, at her best shot, she liked her job working as a housekeeper had plenty of pets to keep her company But then that night she disappeared She'd leave behind all her personal belongings including her clothes purse drivers license dog bird and cat

And she also remains missing to this day Following year something exciting happens in Larry's life The 19th Indiana the reenacting group, Twitch Larry, and at this point, also Gary belonged to. Look so authentic, they were invited to become extras for two civil war movies. Glory, filmed outside Atlanta in 1989, and then much later Gettysburg, shot near the historic battlefield in 1992. Glory, though, not nearly as lavish production, became the more rewarding experience for Larry. Fellow infantrymen, Michael Thompson hitched along with the halls for a ride to Georgia. And yes, halls plural, right? Gary, gonna be in the movie. Seems

he wasn't as involved in all of this is Larry. Didn't take it nearly seriously, but he did go to many of reenactments, you know, had to cost him all that jazz. Michael had also grown up in Wabash, but didn't meet the twins until they had all joined the 19th Indiana. And he remembers laid back Larry, driving as frenetic Gary, gabbed on and on in the pasture seat. If the brother's bickered, it was over directions with Larry, usually winning out. Still Thompson says, I thought Larry liked the trip we took to get there as much as he liked being there. The movie making turned out to be more exciting than Larry expected.

It was actually my first reenactment combat. He later told a reporter for the marrying Indiana Chronicle Tribune. I learned a lot, but it was also dangerous. Usually reenactment bayonets were dull, brittle pieces of metal intended for show, but those wheeled by soldiers in the film were sharp and steel and one nearly stab Larry

as he backed up into it. And he found the pyrotechnics for cannon blasts more frightening. Uh, he, this guy, he, uh, he told a reporter they had a stunt man in front of me during one scene. He was blown six feet into the air by an explosion. It was planned, but even that seemed dangerous. Oh, Larry. July 18th, 1863. My 18th 1863.

My dearest Clare Bell. I have just survived barely. The second battle of Fort Wagner. Alas, the North has lost again, but not because I did not fight for God in country with valor and honor. At one point from a mountain position upon my warsteed, when I ran short of ammunition, I threw my musket like a spear and pinned it not one, not two, but three rebels to a large oak tree. Then I unsheathed my saber and began to chop. I try not to take life when I can avoid it

and instead of cutting off heads. I merely removed arms. Perhaps 40 or 50 sets, so that my enemy may live but never bear aggression against the Union nor myself ever again. I miss you, Dearest Claire Bell. Did you do as I asked and set up a photo shooting the bond with the sex wing and the leather corset? Also, I'm proud to say I've still yet to wet the bed. Not even the slightest tinkle.

I hope you are as proud of me as I am of you. You have my heart forever. I'll be home as soon as I won for God in Country. Colonel Lawrence Duane Hall, 19th Indiana Volunteer Infantry Regiment, Union Army, Ombregate, and also Movie Star. The summer of 1990, Larry starts immersed himself that much more deeply into his fantasy life. By October of 1990, it appears with full-mountain shop sideburns, his bid as he later explained a reporter to get promoted from fake foot soldier to fake commanding officer and local reenactments. He really wanted to portray General Ambrose

Burnside, an Indiana native, whose distinctive facial hair made him the namesake for both the hybrid half-beared mustache, as well as the more ordinary sideburns, you know, his name inverted. Hall would not get the part because since he later discovered the general was six feet tall. His height was unusual for the era and as much as the distinct part of his identity as his facial hair. I can't find a definitive listing for Larry's height, but it seems like he was somewhere between about five three3 and 5'6. Wonder how steady it was about not getting to portray Burnside.

August 27th, 1863. Dears, player, Bill, I find my spirit low and my body overtaking with rage today. I'd hope to write you as a general, general Burnside. But alas, I remain Lawrence. Am I still sexy? Yes. Am I still extremely cool? Of course. But I'm also but a Colonel. I fear I've grown mutton chops for not. Please, as a consolation prize when I return home after winning the war, allow me for chance my beauty, to bury my very thick and manly mustache into your warm and bushy pussy.

Our heads entwining together until two have become one and I may wear your womanhood like a mask. Also, I do miss those titties and I continue to wake up to only dry linens. Please know that I'm a good boy who goes peepee in the potty. Please pass that along to mother and father if you can find them beneath the trash heaps in their home. Larry lary-keyp uh... the burn signs believe in the help of him look more authentic even if you had to remain in the infantry

and i know that i know the letter c's a carnal i want to be a carnal and when he encountered snickers and stairs in the real world he simply retreated back into his fantasy world again now let's talk about a young woman named michelle doey uh... as a young woman named Michelle Dewey. As a young girl, Michelle had written a book about her dreams for adult life. She wanted to grow up and have a baby.

So she would have a son, Will, with her boyfriend. According to friends and family, she lived for that little boy. He was the love of her life. Also in the book, she jotted down some fears and one of them was that a creature would kill me. And in a way that seemed to have been proven true.

July 1st, 1991, 20 year old Michelle was sunbathing in the back yard of her home in Irvington, Indiana, suburb of Indianapolis on South Downey Avenue. She was sitting in a lawn chair while her son Willie played in the waiting pool on a picture-esque summer day. Later that day, a babysitter would find Michelle strangled in her apartment. Willie was in a back bedroom with the door wedge shut, luckily unharmed. The babysitter immediately called the police that day hall had been an Indianapolis after seen an advertisement for a Dodge 1982 blue van with a 218 engine and an asking price of

about 15 well of about of $1,500. Authorities would come to suspect that he'd spotted Michelle sunbathing in the back yard and then later went into her house and murdered her. Just very impulsive. Couple of months later, January 9, 1992, the body of 18 year old Holly Anderson. It's making sure, okay, it's making sure I was in the right decade there. Yes, 99 to the body of 18 year old Holly Ann Anderson was discovered dumped along a rural road near Perryville, Indiana. She'd been fatally stabbed in both the chest

and abdomen. She'd been last seen earlier in the evening, January 8th, when she went by a Danville liquor store where her boyfriend worked. She agreed to return to pick him up midnight but then never arrived. Holly's car was found behind a church two days later in the 500 block of East Main Street. Another discovery, her wallet wallet made almost two months later in a wooded area along grape Creek Road, South of Danville I just want to say you know after covering a lot of crime the past seven years here and just being intrigued like many people by true crime before that After you you know you all have likely listened to so so many true crime episodes. I think we can all become so very jaded to all this right Like Holly Anderson can just read as just a name not a real person and Larry Hall You know the murder just another name

They can all at least to me seem like actors and somebody's play not real flesh and blood people like you or I Not fellow meat sacks with dreams and secrets friends and families favorite meals and movies fellow meat sacks with dreams and secrets, friends and families, favorite meals and movies, scars and imperfections, beating hearts and lungs sucking in the same kind of air that you and I breathe right now. What an end, you know, Holly likely met. Her final moment, something out of a fucking horror movie, but real, you know, feeling Larry's hands or if somebody else did kill her, you know, their hands on her, seeing the hate in their eyes, feeling her flesh tear tear, blood flow from her body,

air unable to enter her lungs anymore, just panic, tear, sadness, and for what? For some monster to live out some dark sexual fantasy, some predator who thought no more of her than many of us think of a fly we swat. And then think about what being somebody like Larry Hall would be like, the fucking rage and apathy, you have to possess to actually do shit like that. Do it to a real person.

A person who's never caused you harm, do it to a person who, you know, might have their little baby boy crying for their mom in the next room, or do it to a young child still in grade school. So in a sense, it's fucking crazy that these monsters actually do walk amongst us, you know, but wearing masks of normalcy pretending to be just like do walk amongst us, you know, wearing masks of normal seat pretending to be just like the rest of us, but inside so much fucking darker than most of us I hope could ever truly imagine becoming. Yeah, yeah, I looked a lot of like there was a lot of videos to get people's names right.

There's a ton of these, you know, women have had a lot of videos done about them that you can find on YouTube, you know YouTube when you see their pictures from their childhood, it's like, oh, fuck, man, the reality. April of 1992, another woman, Helen Kitter, mother of Naomi Kitter, makes another call to the Buffalo PD. Naomi, if you remember, went missing a full decade earlier back in Wyoming. Her daughter still not been listed in the National Crime Information Center Database. She informs authorities for reasons not entirely clear. It would still be another year until

February of 1993 when her dental records would be sent to the state crime lab in Cheyenne. The results entered into the NCIC database March 9th by the following day officials informed that 18 possible matches throughout the US. Ha three of them from Wyoming. Periodontist Dr. Richard Dayton, Dr. Dictate, Dr. Dictate, uh, as taken a look, one crooked, uh, toothroot confirmed it. Uh, Neutrona County's, uh, Jane Doe was in fact Naomi Kitter. Uh, then, uh, Buffalo Police Chief Terry Barnhart in an interview the time said, I'm sorry it took so long. I am, but I don't think it would have changed the outcome.

Kind of a weird apology, right? Why say the next, the second part? I mean, I get what he's saying that she had likely been murdered shortly after going missing so the database entry, you know, would not have saved her or looking for her heart or wouldn't have saved her, but maybe just leave it at sorry. Naomi's identity was finally confirmed, but the identity of her killer still a mystery. Meanwhile, Larry still somewhat making it as a Civil War infantryman.

I mean, actor, I mean, extra. The filming for Gettysburg, a little more, you know, than two years after glory, and in 1989 would bring a hire per DMP and generous buffay meals for all three days that the extras run set. Gary in on this one again too, fucking gear bear,

riding Lair Bears, reenactment co-tails. Wonder what kind of letters. Gary was right into his fake family. Probably nothing even close to the accurate language or dates or anything that Lair Bear was doing. Probably all sloppy and shit. March 14th, 1910. Sup, Gina. Got him his little titties. Can't wait to be done fighting shit. Get home and suck on him and stuff, you know. You hear about Gettysburg and shit? Oh my god. I killed so many fucking Nazis,

not even funny. Like, Hitler is scared as fuck. I'm gonna beat his ass back to Mexico or wherever. But Faye here is dope as shit. Max Potatoes and gravy off the chain. I'm gonna beat his ass back to Mexico or wherever. But, Fey here dope as shit. Max Potatoes and gravy off the chain. I'm making Hollywood money baby. I heard Brad Pitt got his start. Fighting Civil War Mexican Nazis. Anyway, don't give that pussy away to anyone else when I'm gone and shit. Later, babe.

Gary Ironside or fucking Tommy Porchopps or, you know, whatever, I'll give a shit. 19th Indiana, blah, blah, grouping stuff. Now, the trip would expose the increasing divergence in the twins' personal lives and their commitment to the 19th Indiana, Gary had broken the all-male sanctity of their civil war pilgrimage on this trip

by bringing a woman along, holy shit, the shame! That must have brought on poor Larry, the stress that must have put him under One can only imagine the fury felt in his fake letter to his fake wife September 26 1864 Dearest Claire Bell my blood boils My brother Lonely private Gary shit for brains has defiled our family on about bringing his hollet

Into his tent before another great battle while i pined away for you and defend our great land with honor he's off getting his peck of played with apologies for the shocking course language i just want you to know who your brother lawyer is and be sure to never be caught alone in a room with that scoundrel and avoid his debatuous advances he's a heat miss fool. And if I only fought alongside men of his low character only we would surely lose this war. I must be off now. Just know that I've honed for you daily. Wait for you. And that I still have yet to even once with the bid. Colonel Lawrence de Wayne called 19th in the end of volunteer infranity regiment union all beyond brigade

Although Gary had divorced his first wife with a little more than a year a little more than a year after he married her He got hitched again this time to a slim athletic red head named de Aitra And in few nights before their friend Michael Thompson arrived the halls had decided to splurge in a motel and Larry Shocked and offended when he learned he couldn't share room with his brother Borgina Motel and Larry shocked and offended. When he learned he couldn't share a room with his brother, even though he's way too old to be feeling that kind of stuff now, couldn't share a room with his brother and Deatra.

Yeah, I wonder why they wouldn't want him in the room with him. He stormed off in Gary's car, which the huge for the trip didn't return as the next morning was so pissed. Maybe the twins, it would be the twins last extended road trip together for a reenactment or anything else. Instead, they only went together now to closer Midwest events would be the twins last extended road trip together for a reenactment or anything else.

Instead, they only went together now to, you know, closer Midwest events that were just a few hours drive from Wabash. And those events Gary's family obligations would continue to make Larry's life a living hell. And pictures going forward to the reenactments, both Hall bros participated in Gary's daughter would often show up, perched on her dad's knee, not wearing time appropriate clothes. Laurie Jean Pepis was 22 on the night of August 9th, 1992, working at the Fox River Mall,

then Appleton was constant. Was not a particularly unsafe place, but she still got a coworker to walk her back to her car that night, knowing the thing could always be risky for a young woman, especially one just, you know, five foot five and 115 pounds. For the most part, Laurie was used to taking care of herself though. She'd like being a little edgy. She had three ear piercings in each ear. I had a tribal tattoo in the shape of a squid on her ankle,

wearing black sleeveless turtleneck, black spandex shorts, black shoes, silver necklaces, bunch of bracelets, ankle, it's earrings, vehicle, I I can, I saw a picture of her and it's very much like, I remember everybody dressed around this time or the, the cool kids, the cool girls. Her vehicle is later heard coming into the parking lot of her boyfriend's apartment complex located at 3 10 West Wilson Avenue. Her boyfriend and sister expected Lori to walk in at any moment, but instead, someone in the parking lot snatched her. She never entered the apartment.

Lori's boyfriend and sister and her friend searched for her in the parking lot with, but to no avail, they found her vehicle, a gray Volkswagen rabbit found it locked with a styrofoam cup of soda set on top. And her overnight bag and purse still in the car. Someone clearly was waiting for her right when she parked. But who there would be no leads, she simply disappeared. Her remains had never been found. You know, again, of course,

because I mentioned her, you know, the FBI suspects Larry Hall. Following March, March 29th, 1993, another woman goes missing. Young woman named Trisha Lynn Ritler, mentioned her up top, only 19 years old. She disappears, the oldest of four children from a conservative Christian family. Trisha had grown up Southwest of Cleveland and almost dead township Ohio. Her parents financial circumstances were not great but luckily she won a scholarship to

attend Illinois Wesleyan University. Also worked summers to put herself through college. Even Washington closed by hand to save money and always grateful for any help her parents could give. At one point she wrote to them, I just want you to know how much I appreciate how hard you're working to get me here. And I know that's not easy. Another great meet sec. On the 9th of March 29th 1993 this wonderful young woman was riding a term paper for a class when she decided to take a brain break. The scholarship student walked over to Mars Supermarket about a half mile from campus

and bought a soda in a magazine, or yeah, yeah, bought a soda in a magazine, to bring back to her dorm in Bowman Hall. It was about 8 p.m. The 19 year old was five, three, hundred pounds, wearing a silver ring, Indian style leather strap necklace, and a watch, she was a freshman psychology major,

great student with an excellent GPA, probably would have done a very well on her term paper, but never got to turn it in. Never made it back to her dorm. Two days after her disappearance, her blood stained jeans, shirt, and shoes discovered in a field, near Sabled Pool and Center Elementary School located between Marsh's supermarket and the campus. Six or seven unidentified people playing basketball in the school playground adjacent to the pool at the time Trisha disappeared, but none of these possible witnesses had any info. Like so many others, she was just gone. And again, her body yet to be found. Who could be so good at hiding all these bodies? Maybe a grave digger son, someone who did help

their father dig many a grave growing up. April 3rd, 1993, Larry writes a note to himself, to do list of sorts. Replaced reargrass carpet and van, cut out stained carpet, vacuumed van thoroughly, sprayed down chemical, wiped with armor all, burnt paint tarps, buy new hacksaw blades or burn paint tarpsps by new hacksaw blades, clean all tools with the nature alcohol. The final lines of the entry were take tires off and clean mud from under fenders, 700 West Francis slope and trail.

All right, this is a little suspicious and light of all of this stuff. Now a possible suspect emerges in the trisher, right, their case, but it's not Larry Hall. Mary and police were convinced that they had the right guy when they arrested Tony Cersei, a 28 year old who failed a lie detector test and had a criminal record for stealing copper from train depots. Sealing copper is a long ways for murder, but okay. Tony also outspoken about what he felt was the current state of Christianity in America and IWU faculty claim that he had developed frightening apocalyptic views during his four semesters

at the school Prosecutors were convinced they had their guy and when he was convicted of theft the following October and given a 10-year sentence Police now thought they had the man responsible for Trisha's murder behind bars even though they couldn't prove it Before he goes to prison though another you know girl goes missing Jessica Lynn Jesse roach 15 and an aspiring pilot, ambitious young lady when she disappeared September 23rd, 1993. Jesse was a beautiful young woman with a short athletic build, big doughy eyes, long brown hair. She had set out on her bike after telling

her older sister that she was going to help prepare a float for the high school homecoming parade. Her sister drove past her when she took the family car to pick up groceries. Since the family lived in a sea of cornfields in rural Georgetown, Illinois, miles from town or much of anything else, the bike was especially precious to Jessica. When the sister found an abandoned on her return home, she knew something was wrong. Just before her sister saw this, a bus driver, Darryl Morgan was passing and he as he did every afternoon. And he noticed Jesse's bike in the middle of the road, which was weird because it looked expensive.

A search quickly launched by Pat Hartzhorn, the county sheriff who knew that Jesse was not a runaway. When he called his chief investigator Gary Miller, he told him there is something really wrong here. Miller was then a 20 year veteran of the sheriff's department at 45 years old and he snuck out of work early to watch his son. He had snuck out of work early to watch his son. He had snuck out of work early this day to watch his son play baseball. But now left before the game was over and arrived at the road.

Home is the son was setting. Sheriff Hardtorn sat inside the trailer home with a distraught Roach family, Jessica's parents or older sister and younger brother, all of whom shaken up in and tears. They kept going over the possibilities. Had she had a fight with anybody? Did she have a boyfriend? No. Despite exhaustive efforts, the search team finds nothing. They kept going over the possibilities had she had a fight with anybody did she have a boyfriend no

Despite exhaustive efforts the search team finds nothing Miller then starts interviewing everybody from Jesse's family to her crushes and friends that doesn't turn up any leads either Only after exhausting all the usual suspects as Miller consider the outermost circle a total stranger from beyond the community randomly lighting down upon Jessica in in other words, possibly a serial killer. The idea of someone from the outside coming in to commit a crime just goes against the grain of every local investigator Miller would later say, you really want to believe it's in your control to figure out what happened. Miller knew that the FBI had a database, a supposedly linked missing persons and unsolved cases with serial killers. So he reached out to a local FBI agent, Ken Temples, for help.

Together from Temples office, they called Quantico Virginia to speak to one of the Bureau's profilers. Answered a few questions about Jessica and the circumstances surrounding her disappearance, then listened to the profiler, clack away to computer until he confidently concluded, nah, she's run away. Miller could only roll his eyes and disagree. Without a body, that assumption, though, would be hard to prove wrong. Almost seven weeks later, a body would be found this time. November 8th, Jessica's ravage remains recovered

from a cornfield across the border near the town of Perryville, Indiana. Unfortunately, a farmer's combine had accidentally crushed her body. So experts could not determine a cause of death. Even just getting an ID was hard now, but luckily or un-luckily, Jesse's parents had a fingerprint kit Jesse had once used in elementary school, the Prince matched. A couple weeks after the discovery, a witness reportedly then came forward to claim he had seen a man walking out of the cornfield and towards a van on the night of a murder, but he could not give a detailed description of the man or the van. As months passed, no other lead surf had still Miller could not let go of the investigation.

Maybe because it was the first kidnapping and murder he'd ever handled in a lot of years on the job, or maybe because his own son was Jessica's age. He would later recall every day when I woke up in the morning, the first thing that occurred to me was the Jessica Roach case. In his greatest act of desperation, Miller even brought in the morning, the first thing that occurred to me was the Jessica Roach case. In his greatest act of desperation, Miller even brought in the producers of the America's most wanted TV show, a Hail Mary Pass that police would only make when they felt, you know, all of their options had been for for close. It was another painful ordeal for the publicity shy Roach family, but at least they knew, you know, or had full faith in the county investigators intentions to turn over every possible stone. Meanwhile around the same time, Jesse's body is discovered.

November 19th, 1993, Larry Hall is in Rochester, Indiana for a Civil War reenactment. Soon he would be focusing on a new target. Abby, uh, uh, marriage, uh, I've never seen that last name, the last name of action marriage. And Kaelin Hoskins, 13 and 15 were riding their bikes when they noticed a tan van with brown stripes following closely behind them, and then they rightly started to get creeped to fuck out. The girls cut to an alley to avoid the van

to go to Kaelin's house, Abby called her grandma, who immediately called the police. Now, his parents went out looking for the van, hopefully her dad had a fucking shotgun while they did that. And when they found the van, the driver turned off his lights because he knew they were watching. The van tried to escape, but he got stopped at a red light and Abby's mother called the

police and was able to give them the license plate number. Hail Nimrod! She would not be the only one to do that. Within a couple of days, Amy Baker was out rollerblade. He knew the spot where Jessica Roach's body was found. When she noticed a brown and town and brown and tan van passing by her numerous times got closer much slower each time it passed. Think of fast, uh, Amy saw a motorist whom she knew stopped the car told them that they

didn't hear from her in 45 minutes to contact her parents have them called the police with a description. Amy also remembered the license plate, uh, 85 B 37 52 Larry Hall's license plate number. With all these reports about Larry Hall, Wabash PD decides, you know, time to have a look talk with him. Between March of 1994, November 15th, the same year, detective Phil Amonis of the Wabash Police Department would have several conversations with Hall. Apparently, he realized Hall had mental health problems because of his recommendation. Hall agreed to see a therapist at the Otis Arbohen Center, a mental health facility in Wabash.

Amonies then kept in touch with the treating therapist and provided him with information about the accusations concerning Hall's propensity to, you know, creep out young girls. Follow them. Therapist in turn shared his assessment of Hall's condition with Amonies and Amonies kept other law, local law enforcement agencies informed about Hall's treatment. Still nobody had yet connected Larry to any disappearances or murders. You know, just thought of him as a general creep. Meanwhile Detective Gary Miller still perusing the police reports in his county, trying

to find a connection to Jesse Roach. Then just a few months following Larry's initial conversation with law enforcement in May, officer Neil Pence stopped Larry Hall in the trademark tan van. While searching Larry's van, he notices some, you know, unusual items spray can of starting fluid cotton mass cotton balls plastic tar knives and some rope creepy pretty creepy making it all creep here also finds newspaper articles about Trisha Writer and a piece of Indiana Wesley University Stationary with Writer's name printed on it. Just as alarming is a newspaper story

from the previous November titled Marion Police Interested in Body about the remains in the Perryville Cornfield that were later identified as being Jessica Roach. Larry Looking Guilty, real guilty. Officer Pence brings him in to marry and police headquarters while other officers search his van. At one point while being questioned, Larry volunteers, while he didn't kill Trisha, he did have a nightmare about killing Trisha right there. Even agreed to show Bender in K where he buried her in his dream. But then when Larry and two detectives drive to an area about around

the historic, uh, miss a cinema battlefield, miss a cinema battlefield, he claimed to lose his bearings. And set a booking layer, or even hold him for the question now, the marrying detectives, thinking that he's a bad shit crazy, but not a murderer, return him to his home. They assume that he was a so called wannabe. Thought that they already had their man, Tony Cersei behind bars for this. Immediately Hall sets out to look for a new target now, May 31st, 1994. He will find not one, not two, not three, but four. His would-be victims were Ashley Davis, Tisha Moore, Danielle Marshall, and Melissa Selik, who were walking in Wildash City Park when they noticed a brown and tan van driving next to them.

The driver asked them if they wanted to go for a ride. The girls got scared, ran to Ashley's house. The van followed them and Ashley's mother came out and yelled at the driver and then she called the police. Melissa Selik now told the police that the man with the dark hair and beard had tried two other times, previously to coax her and do his van. Her dad went looking for the van, found the same van,

everyone had been reporting, hidden in a barn where a hall apparently her into his van. Her dad went looking for the van, found the same van, everyone had been reporting, hidden in a barn where a hall apparently worked on his vehicles. There, you know, investigators will find some mysterious looking leather straps that seem to be an awful, that seem to look an awful lot like restraints. But Larry not found. And for some reason, her dad did not at least slash all four of that motherfucker's tires. Or you know, put on a mask and hide nearby with a shotgun and not contact authorities and then Larry gets back blast out both his fucking kneecaps, then talk to him about fucking around with

girls, then maybe shoot him in the leg, you know, three or four more times, so much harder to kidnap when you're in a wheelchair for the rest of your life. This increased scrutiny does not stop Larry Hall. Chatten, Newgatenesisatton, and C. Jones, June 30th, 1994. Donda, Renee, Martino, 32. Talking with her sister when she said she was going to run to the store, told her she'd call her back when she returned or call her when she returned. No one heard from her after that, not even at the next day's family birthday party. When Donda doesn't show up, her family knows that something terrible has happened.

Interesting, lots of civil war monuments near Chattanooga, bunch of reenactments. Seems that Larry Hall would be very, very busy that summer. October 17th, 1864. My dear is clearable. Some days I feel like this war will never end. It's going to be so hard to keep the fight going weekend after weekend around my genital duties back in War Bash. And it's getting more expensive since Gary is too busy with his haulet to accompany me on many of my important missions. I apologize. I should not put my stresses upon you, Clairbel.

I know you do already worry over my survival each and every day. Soon my love, soon I will stop killing these girls. I mean, rebel men, soldiers who are grown, tough men for certain, and I will return to our bash. Once the North has won, and we will no longer sleep with my parents, trailers, living room, and have to dance around piles of trash and fear the rats that nibble upon our toes as we slumber.

My heart continues to belong to you. And I remain a good boy who goes peepee in the potty and I still have yet to wet the bed. Colonel Lawrence D. Wayne Hall 19th Indiana Volunteer Infantry Regiment Union Army Iron Brigade. Back to real events now. Mid July, a 14 year old girl named Sarah Rae Bame is on her way to her friends house and beaver county, Pennsylvania doesn't make it. A hunter will later find her skeletal remains near deer field, Ohio at Berlin Lake and Portage County. And on July 24th, 13 year old Natasha Crockett and her 10 year old sister Nicole were playing with their cousins across from their home when they noticed one of the odds, Tan Van, part cross the street, driver seemed

to be riding something down. Then the van pulled up to the girls, asked them if they knew where Woodlawn Street was when they said no, the man asked Natasha if they'd like to go for a ride. They said no, awesome, great job. And ran home, also awesome. Once again, these girls tell their parents about the van and they manage to get a license plate number and of course it's Larry's license number. No arrests is made though, not illegal to be a fucking creep, talking to kids. August of 1994, Hall may have murdered again. August 8th, 18 year old, Shaillene Marie Farrell left her home in Pickwood, Ohio to go to a pick and save grocery store.

Her 1901 Chevrolet found in the parking lot and she has still never been found. Less than two weeks later, August 21st, a nude body of Catherine Menendez, rising high school senior in Baloitte, Ohio, is found by a gas company employee working near the Berlin reservoir in Portage County. Autopsie showed she had enraped tortured sexually mutilated and strangled to death. In the November that followed, the remains of Sarah Bame were found, less than a mile away from where Menendez was dumped. And less than two months after the killing of Menendez, another girl found murdered in

Rochester, Indiana, with similar mutilation injuries. She was 20-year-old Carrie Ann Smith. Her body found on the north side of the Tipakanu River. She had been lasting in South Bend, Indiana, where she lived, like with so many others, an autopsy revealed Smith had been beaten, strangled, and sexually mutilated. The following month, the FBI found a Noten Larry's van, mentioning a monomony, a public access area less than half mile upstream from where Kerry Smith had been found. He would continue stalking and potentially killing several Jane Does allegedly,

He would continue stalking and potentially killing several Jane Does allegedly from this time period until the end of October 1994. Finally October 28th, 1994, almost a full year after Jessica Roach's murder, Gary Miller comes across a report about the girls who have been harassed by a man in a van when riding their bikes down a Georgetown street. When Miller looked into the license plate number, he saw that the plate had been called up three times by other local police departments. Something they tend to do, if they catch an out-of-state vehicle, aimlessly cruising streets, and the van is registered to Larry D Hall.

On a hunch with only the license plate information, Miller calls the Wabash Police Department to talk about the van's owner. He was ultimately connected to Detective Sergeant Jeff Whitmer, who not only knew Larry Hall but readily admitted that he grew up with him. Miller filled him in and asked, can you think of any reason he would be in this area? Whitmer replied, do you have civil war reenactments over there? He travels all over going to those. Miller didn't have a clue. He next called the County Parks Department and was told that they did not host civil war reenactments, but just as he was about to hang up, Miller later remembered, the guy said,

you know, we did have a revolutionary war reenactment. It was held a year before at the forest Glen Park, just outside Georgetown, and on the weekend proceeding the Monday, the Jessica disappeared. Moments later, Miller is back on the phone with Jeff Whitmer, who tells him something else about Hall. Although Whitmer considered him a harmless weirdo, Hall had been a suspect in another missing person case. That of

Trisha Wrightler, 19 year old girl who had apparently been abducted six months earlier from her college campus in Marion, just down the state highway from Wabash. Miller was familiar with that case because it had made national news. And because a few missing persons, flyers had crossed his desk with Wrightler's photo. But Whitmer was quick to minimize Hall's involvement with Wrightiter, saying they might have looked at him, but they're tied into another suspect. I think they know who did theirs. Miller was not so sure about this other suspect.

He was getting real suspicions about Larry Hall. When Miller now asked if Hall would be able to submit to an informal interview, Whitmer assured him that would be no problem. The department's other detectives had known the hall family had a good relationship with Larry. Wouldn't be hard to get him to come in. Finally, hall is brought in for questioning now. November 2, 1994, to the police station, Wabash. Gary Miller would meet him there as Gary drove the three hours from his

office to Wabash, a crazy quilt pattern of industrial development and agriculture flash by his car window. Flat geometric farms were interspersed with untended woodland and sudden outcroppings of smoke stacks and manufacturing complexes. Lots of corn fields. So much land with no structures on it. Landful of tall cornstalks for long periods of time. Lots of little service roads and private roads cutting through the fields to help with irrigation and harvesting so many places to hide bodies. Driving through Wabash, Miller Pass treats packed tight with working-class bungalows that gave way to blocks

of with massive factories, many now shuttered with desolate empty parking lots. The downtown sprawled up a little hill from the Wabash River. At the top was the bow, arts, brick and limestone, county courthouse, easily the most prominent structure in the city. The other buildings mostly drab brick rose no higher than a few stories. Police headquarters were located in a squat dilapidated station house that would soon be vacated for more modern facilities. Sergeant Whitmer greeted Miller

and the lobby that introduced him to his partner Phil Amonis, the hall family friend who had gotten Larry into counseling while back. Phil hovered protectively over Larry during interview. At first Miller didn't know what to make of the stocky little man with his greasy hair and funny sideburns. Hall spoke in a meek, almost robotic voice and wouldn't look him in the eyes. Whitmer led the group out of the police station and across the street to a conference room in City Hall where they were joined by two more policemen, detectives from the Marion PD. This was not what Miller wanted. He wanted an intimate session, something

that could blossom into a real conversation and ultimately a confession with an audience he felt that was going to be a lot more difficult. Miller asked first about the most recent stocking incident and said hall calmly read the police report while he admitted to driving the van that day he added in his quite little voice. I've never been in George in Georgetown Illinois. Miller asked if he had ever traveled out of Indiana in his van and Hall replied that he did drive to civil war reenactments, although he couldn't name all the places he'd been to. Miller pulled out a road out list from his briefcase, lit the map of Illinois in front of Hall, who stayed hunched down in his chair, hands

limp in his lap, he pointed to Georgetown. Are you anywhere near here? Hall glends briefly to them, I agree that he could have been in that area, looking for an old Dodge charger. Now Miller pressed him for more details on where he did go. If you could remember names, Miller suggested he could identify landmarks. Hall then recalled a small town with a traffic light in a hearty's hamburger stand, and remembered stopping a few times to talk to girls. Just because I like to talk to people He said he would ask their names and ages and whether they wanted to ride in his van or not But did you chase anyone Miller asked? No, sir. I did not a hollver plied meekly and if I did it would just be in fun

That's a weird answer No, I would never do that What if I did do that which I could have done, I guess I'd just be goofing. Suddenly one of the marrying detectives interrupted at first Miller was annoyed at the interruption because he felt he was on a roll, he was leading somewhere, but then he was stunned and curious when he heard the question.

Larry, the detectives said, why don't you tell him about your dreams? After an eerie silence, Hall, Hall his eyes still downcast, told Miller, sometimes I dream about killing women, but I think it's just a dream. Tell them where you are in those dreams. I kind of leave my body and look down on myself. Can you remember what you're doing?

Miller asked, I can't tell you exactly, I only remember that it's something bad. Miller reached into his briefcase again now. This time pulled out a glossy photograph, laid it in front of Hall. It was a picture of Jessica Roach with a radiant smile, a smile, dough-like eyes, long brown hair, and then Hall did something surprising. He flinched and looked away. He held up a hand like he was trying to shield his eyes from some blinding light, real dramatic. Miller thought that spelled out, you know, possible if not probable guilt, but he still wasn't ready to admit that Larry Hall was absolutely the guy.

Similarly, the other detectors were clearly disturbed by Hall, but still dismissed him as being a wannabe. After Larry went home, the local detectives insisted he was harmless, but then they devolved further information that only reinforced Miller suspicions. In just the past month, Larry had been arrested for stocking a jogger. There have been previous complaints about stocking as well. But Detective Amonis had referred Larry to a local counseling service and response, those, you know, thought it was handled. Then there was the Trisha rightler abduction, even though the Marion police were adamant that someone else was responsible in his gut. Miller knew that there were too many similarities with the Jessica Roach case for this to be coincidence. As he drove home, Miller admitted that he didn't know what to do. The jurisdiction stuff with Indiana and Illinois was so complicated alone,

it'll be hard to determine whose case it even was. But there was one thing he could do and Miller would do that. He'd make the single most fateful decision of the entire investigation. He would decide to bring in the feds immediately upon his return after receiving permission from the sheriff. He called Francis Hulin, the US attorney for the Central District of Illinois, Larry Hall, he told her,

had likely cross state lines to abduct and kill Jessica, making it a federal case. Miller also had a close relationship with an FBI agent named Ken Temples, who agreed to join the case. Francis Hulin also assigned a lead prosecutor, a man named Larry Beaumont. With a dream team of sorts now assembled Miller awaits his next move.

November 15th 1994, Larry gets hold on for questioning again now by a Wabash detective Whitmer. Whitmer told him that Miller was back, you know, and this time he brought two FBI agents with him. Once again Larry didn't seem unduly alarmed and agreed to drive himself downtown. He never contacted a lawyer or even informed his family of what was going on. Whitmer took him to the old station house

in a tiny, excuse me, and a tiny interrogation room, barely big enough for the two desks inside. On one end was a tiny window, propped open above a hissing steam radiator on the other a darkened two-way mirror. This time, Gary Miller had returned to Wabash with special agent, canned temples and special agent Mike Randolph. First Miller said the easiest thing to do would be to have Larry take a polygraph test. That was why Randolph was there to help administer

it, but then Hall shook his head and said, I can't do it because I don't believe I will pass it. There's a gas behind the two-way mirror, right? This is the big break. By refusing the polygraph, Hall had now incriminated himself more than if he failed. Right? They couldn't use it in court, but in essence, he's telling investigators that he knew he did something, uh, he didn't want to tell the truth about. Randolph wanted more than a refusal. He gently probed as he, why Larry thought he wouldn't pass. suspecting that the FBI agent might get more from Larry on his own. Miller stood up and left the room But he continued to watch through that two-way mirror Once again Hall went on about his creepy ass fucking dreams to Randolph this time he called him nightmares and confided to the FBI Agents that they were interfering with his sleep and making him depressed

Trading carefully Randolph told Hall that he needed treatment to stop his nightmares and depression Larry replied that he'd been referred to a mental health center by detective amonis But that the young counselor he was seeing you know just wasn't able to really deal with his issues At times there he told Randolph he was lonely and he felt a an urge to be with women Randolph asked if that urge was irresistible and Larry said yes it was He said the urge was something he had to do to satisfy to to feel better Right that fucking sound like a serial killer. By God. Randolph then pulled out a photo of Jessica Roach as he had been prompted to do by Detective Miller. Again, Hall looked away, but this time as he did so, a tear rolled

down his cheek. For the next few moments, they sat in silence. And then Randolph asked, why don't we start talking about that weekend? And his flat, weird, quiet voice with his head down, Larry Hall proceeded to do just that. He said he had been in Georgetown after the reenactment to scout out an old Dodge charger listed in an auto trader classified at said he stumbled upon Jesse Roach by chance. And that he, you know, attacked her because she appeared so vulnerable, vulnerable while walking her bike down a lonely road with no one else in sight.

He talked about heading east to get into Indiana after kidnapping her, then crossing over a highway. That was highway 63, the only major thoroughfare in the area, runs parallel to the state line. Once he was in Indiana, he described his frenzy attempts to go farther east along deserted dirt roads. Each one came to a dead end along the Wabash River. At last, he said he took a paved road which appeared to lead to a bridge crossing, but instead veered south into another dirt road that wound only deeper into the woods. With no one in sight, and the sun now setting, said he decided to stop near a pond to climb into the back of the van. I tied her up, but I can't remember with what.

I took her pants off. He told investigators. Hall then confessed to raping Jessica and leading her into the woods and then strangling her. Said he strangled her from behind so he didn't have to see her face as she died. He said, I later up against a tree put a belt around her neck and she stopped breathing. I just do things. He added, I'm not in control.

This is one of those times when I was not control. It almost as much to say about Trisha Ritler and then made vague comments about killing other girls, at least to an Indiana, one of us and one in Wisconsin near a reenactment. All of the girls looked alike. He said, I cannot remember all of them. There were no more tears, but as Larry spoke, Randolph noted his face twitched and he also compulsively kept just ringing his hands. During a break in this conversation, Miller suggested that they tape Larry as well as his statements. That way a jury would know that the confession that the confession wasn't coerced. But to Miller's surprise, Randolph refused FBI policy at that time prevented him from

tape recording a confession for some weird reason. Instead, from what he recalled of Larry's confession, Randolph wrote down a statement in his own scrolling handwriting on two blank sheets of paper, then asked Hall to sign each one. Miller counter-s sign as a witness Neither Lawman unfortunately noticed that the document began with I Larry Duane Daniels not Hall In his haste to get everything down quickly, Randolph had copied the format from another statement another document and

Just forgot to change the last name from Daniels to Hall and this is actually a big fuckup And just forgot to change the last name from Daniels to Hall. And this is actually a big fuck up. Also neither he nor Miller balked when Hall blocked printed his name instead of signing it in script, another fuck up. These little mistakes will come back to haunt them. You know, so annoying that clerical errors like that can invalidate something as important as this confession. The session ended sometime in the early morning.

There were no notes, tape recordings or video recordings of the session. Miller knew what he had to do next. He wasn't going home without Larry come with him, but needed a car since Miller had hitched to ride with Ken Temples. Miller also needed a warrant for Hall's rest, even though he expected the case to end up with the U.S. Attorney in Central Illinois. He first called his local state's attorney so that charges could be filed the very next day.

Finally, Miller needed Hall's cooperation so he could take him across state lines and to his surprise, Larry instantly waived the extradition proceedings. Indiana, one of the few states and they could do so without a hearing before a judge in return. Hall had a request of his own. He didn't want strangers to join his parents and poke around his things. Miller readily agreed to let wall bash detectives, filamonies and Jeff Whitmer lead the first police in to visit Paul's house. Miller knew that in time, the FBI would seek a search warrant and returned and, you know, do a more thorough job to book and hold all the Wabash police transferred him to the Grant County jail and nearby Marion, where he arrived at 325 in the morning. Miller stayed the rest of the night in Wabash

in a motel where he hardly slept had a big day planned ahead But his plans would change in the morning It began with another fuckup began with the press when he arrived at the jail in our moda of TV station vans I had surrounded the building, you know reporters had poured out they got their video cameras the media on slot had been touched off by the cheap Chief of the Wabash city police department who had held an impromptu press conference the day before. I went asked about the extent of Paul's crimes he replied, we're not talking about just

one or two cases, but at least possibly four. We're not exactly sure at this point. And this is like a siren song to the media. And it had an unintended effect. Gary had been in touch with his brother after, you know, he read the morning paper and when Miller arrived, Larry told him, my brother told me I better shut my mouth and get a lawyer because I'm in a lot of trouble. Right? Another stupid mistake.

A couple of documentation errors and then someone just couldn't keep their fucking mouth shut. The chief police, you know, for just a couple days. Larry did still agree, you know, to go on a ride with Miller though. But instead of talking about the case on the ride to Danville, Illinois, they talked about the Civil War and the Revolutionary War. Miller listened hoping that some intimacy with Hall would lead to another confession. But Miller was in for a rude awakening.

Once in Danville Hall told Special Agent Randolph that what he talked about the day before was just a dream. Not a real confession. He said that nothing he mentioned in that statement actually happened. Was Larry slow or a lot more fucking cunning than he appeared. Randolph replied that both he and Deputy Sheriff Miller believed Hall was confessing to real murders. That's why they had him arrested. According to Randolph, Larry then changed course yet again and now said that, okay, you got me, I was telling the truth. But over the next two weeks, Hall kept calling Randolph more adamant each time when they talked that no, he wasn't telling the truth.

He was dreaming. Meanwhile, Miller knew for a fact that that wasn't true. He spent part of the day driving around Georgetown where Jesse Roach was from and Hall's details matched up with the ones he observed in the landscape, like a distinctive steel bridge, the only one in the area, right? It was no dream. It was time to investigate Larry's home. The detectives waited calf deep into the filth and clutter of the parent's home. Didn't see anything gruesome or gory except a skull that turned out to be fake, but the mess gave them insight into the strange scrambled seeming person. Also, check the crypts of the cemetery to see if Larry had stashed any of his victims there, but no dice. When they seized two of Larry's cars, the 1984 Dodge Ram, the 1990 Plymouth Voyager, since, or they, I don't know why, yeah, I

said it that way, but they just, they seized those two cars. And then since he drove the Dodge to work, Larry kept his front bucket seats and rear bench relatively clean. But the cargo bay was filled with boxes, old license plates and piles of clothing. Trash rose to the windows of the Plymouth, like water in a tub, car parks, two by fours buckets of tools and bolts plywood, but no obvious weapons, blood stains or you know, implements of restraint. But there was some graphic stuff. There was photographs of young women torn from porno mags that had been creepily marked to show mutilation,

strangulation and stabbing teeth blacked out blood drawn, dripping from mouths. On the bottom of one page in pen, also was written Jessica, with blood drawn, dripping from the letters. Her name also found in a 1993 US Postal Service book of Christmas stamps he had. Also, there was Indiana maps marked with dots,

including one that indicated the exact spot where Jessica Roach's body was found, and another where Gary Miller believed, you know, he murdered her. Other writing was found too. Notes tucked under the carpeting of the Dodge van and pulled from Larry's room. At first, the notes appeared to be no more than lists, but upon closer inspection, they contained, you know, fevered commands and obsessions. Peace together, they comprised an instruction guy to serial rape and murder in central Indiana. They refer to his victims in terms they don't define sex or even humanity.

They are his prospects, joggers and bikers, singles or walkers. Seen many nice girls, he says of one location. In another note, he reminds himself, take a lot of clothes, blankets, to keep her out of sight. Get one around the southeast grant. He writes, meaning grant county, maybe check Taylor areas or Marsh at Hartford City. Taylor University is a small Christian college in Southeast Grant County and the Marsh supermarket nearby Hartford City frequented by Taylor students. He adds place to find one, Anderson College or Mounds Mall. Anderson, another Christian

college, farther south. Mall is another local student destination. Neither Taylor nor Anderson as a major university insulated by expensive campus grounds instead of small schools, closely hemmed in by residential streets, industrial strips, and farmland. Students walking to class or dormitories

are easily observed by outsiders who drive past on local roads and highways. From all these notes, it was obvious that Larry had spent a great deal of time circling college campuses over and over again. They also included notes about the chances him getting caught. The notes reminded him to check spots over and over and warn, seen many police cars around Taylor very risky.

One escape plan was as follows, take 300 to 500 Bradford Pike East into J-Line to the old house, where he and his parents used to live. Take out East wilderness to J, most likely to safety. There was also a lot of items to buy at the hardware store, along with detailed instructions. Buy two more cans of SF, he writes, probably means starter fluid. An ether compound that can be sprayed onto a rag and pushed over victims' nose to run to them unconscious. Buy new tarp to cover the whole rear.

No exposed carpet, no remnants, no body contact, buy condoms, buy two more leather belts, take buck knife, gloves, mask, he adds. Holy shit. Elsewhere here reminds himself to bring some rope. A theme throughout the notes is avoiding contact, body to body contact, contact of a body with any surface in his van. He includes the following on one list of chores.

Buy two more plastic tarps, clean out van rear, put curtains back up in windows, furnace tape tarp to van ready to haul, zero contact equal safe. Probably meant equals silk sock to cover it, underwear, head cover, rear door plastic bleach rear of his van. Larry seeming less and less slow all the time. Uh, next to another reminder about covering the rear of the van. He adds no evidence, no forensic residues elsewhere. Larry simply waxes poetic. He writes, now I know it's hard, so hard sometimes to leave the ones you love

behind, but I feel a calling from deep inside. He writes, Now, I know it's hard, so hard sometimes, to leave the ones you love behind. But I feel a calling from deep inside, sometimes so strong it's hard to hide. Random poetry. I can feel the winds of change, my friend. I feel them blowing through my mind. And I know it's time for me, my friend, to be moving on down the line.

Larry's poem reminds me of a song. Any guesses? We got a hold on to what we've got. Larry's poem reminds it on a prayer. Take my hand and we'll make it a swear. Oh, let it on a prayer. Woo, I started to fucking high again. But, John, but I'm Shelby's back. Shelby's back in your brain.

You're welcome. America's foremost Korean war expert. Sure, no, sure, no, sure knows how to write in your word How's it gonna be able to finish that strong oh well It was obvious from Larry's notes minus the poetry that Larry was a man who lost control of himself in moments a frenzy But a cold blood a motherfucker who planned out his killings highly methodically At least some of them one chilling sentence reads I can't see the faces, but I can hear the screams Yik. Meanwhile his family, especially Mama Bernice,

uh, very quick to defend him. Any women he ever met he treats with kindness. She told reporters, you can talk to any of his friends here in Wabash, so he doesn't have any friends, and they'll tell you he treats women with respect. She added that he had several girlfriends who would concur, but she didn't name them, you know, because they don't fucking exist. Her father, excuse me, his father Robert also chimed insane. We think he's an awful nice boy and he's not capable of this. We brought him up the way he was supposed to be brought up and he turned

out right. Well, you know what, place case closed. There you go. His parents who literally live in some kind of fucking human rat den of filth, they say he's okay. They raise him right. So he must be okay. It's a further proof or point, Bernice volunteered that Larry was an identical twin. As if to argue that he couldn't have committed such crimes

without involving his brother. You know, identical twins are, even though they're not identical twins. Uh, ha ha ha. Did I mention that no one ever said that Bernice was a genius? you know, identical twins are, even though they're not identical twins. Uh, ha ha ha. Did I mention that no one ever said that Bernice was a genius?

I'm not sure that's true, but I can't find any sources where anyone eludes that. I strongly feel like that's true. I feel that Bernice and Robert, not geniuses. Other information about Larry soon emerged that was in odds with the portrait of the gentle soul painted by his parents. A reporter for the Wabash plane dealer found one woman who claimed that he had stalked her and a friend as they jogged in the early morning hours a few months earlier.

He's stalking all kinds of people. When she complained to the police, they told her the hall had already been arrested for stalking on several occasions and needed a letter of credibility from his bosses at the credit union to get released from jail. Then there was this connection with the way that's phrased, almost like, come on, do we have to file this? He's stalking the fuck out of, you're not special. He's stalking so many women. He's stalking everyone. He's stalking every woman in Wabash. Get in line behind all the other women trying to file complaints. Then there was this connection with Trisha

rightler. Word got out about the patrolman who would stop layer eight months earlier in May. And almost the exact location Trisha disappeared and That patrolman as we went over you know found something like an abduction kit along with newspaper clippings about Trisha disappearance Well Larry's family had a rebuttal If they found the items why hadn't they rest of Larry? privately marrying police say they don't believe Hall did it Mary and Chronicle Tribune executive editor Alan Miller And they don't believe Hall did it. Marion Chronicle Tribune executive editor Alan Miller wrote shortly after Hall's expedition to Illinois.

That's why they didn't arrest him. He didn't think he didn't matter how much evidence he's filing up. As summed up by a column headline, Miller was more concerned that the news would bring another agonizing day for the writers, meaning Trisha's parents, you know, Gary and Donna. In fact, the Marion police were immediately in touch with the writers and downplayed Larry's confession to Randolph Miller. The Chronicle Tribune quoted Donna as saying, hall gave no more information that he could have gleaned from your newspaper.

If he had given us something a little more concrete, then that would have been a possibility. I think it was a man seeking attention. So did they think he did it or not? Difficult to say. Seems to vary from person to person and police department to police department. The one person who seems to have consistently suspected Larry Miller is detective, or excuse me, suspected Larry Hall is detective Gary Miller.

December 21st, 1994, Larry Hall charged with one count of kidnapping for the purposes of sexual gratification in the abduction of 15-year-old Jessica Roach. They didn't charge him with murder mainly because there just was no evidence on her body, which had been decomposing out in a farmer's cornfield for seven weeks and was then crushed by a combine. Did they have enough evidence to convict him of this charge, though, which is still a significant charge. Larry's lawyer Craig DeArmond, you know, hoped, obviously, they didn't. Since

the Central District of Illinois, then had no federal defender's office, US judge Harold Baker had to tap a local private attorney to represent the indigent hall and given the considerable challenges of a high profile case, he chose the most qualified candidate, which was DeArmond. DeArmond and Larry would now form a defense strategy, and their first goal was to discredit or ideally discard Larry's confession because it was improperly coerced. Second was to establish an alibi. Larry claimed reporters that many witnesses, principally his twin brother Gary, would testify

to seeing him at an Indiana reenactment far from Georgetown in the day of Jessica Roach's abduction. To help bolster Larry's alibi, the arm and turned up a receipt for a transaction on the day Jessica Roach disappeared, came from health and sheet metals. Excuse me, an auto supply store in Wal-Bash that larry and his friends would cruise their street rods around. Besides displaying larry's full name as the recipient of the service and the date of the transaction, the slip also provided the time of the transaction, 5.30 pm. This would have made it impossible for larry to abduct Jessica Roach.

During the afternoon in Illinois, then drive 150 miles in time to pay health in that evening. Something about all this did not smell right to Detective Miller, so he investigates, and finds that the shop's owner had done Robert Hall to favor, and bullshitted that receipt. The whole family apparently had tried to get that done with just about every fucking business in town, including with Ross Davis, the twins old friend from childhood, fucking idiots. Back to Larry's defense strategy, play the victim. He complained that the extensive press coverage would discourage any jury from believing him. It's come to the point where I'm completely snowed under by the FBI's reports and stuff,

he said. I feel like I'm not going to have a chance. Later he added, I'm just basically a helpless individual. I've just been totally taken advantage of by the FBI. In his meek little voice, meanwhile the prosecution put together their case. Luckily for them to record denied Hall's motion to suppress his confession. January 21st, 1995, a headline from the Associated Press Reads report, haul link to 20 murders. Although that list has never been completely released to the public, it's known to

include at least three areas where there were clusters of women suspected killed, suspected of being killed or reported missing. And one cluster included three victims we've discussed, desi roach, holly and Anderson and Wendy Felton. Larry attempted to hit back and bolden his attorney, Larry reached out to the press from his Danville jail sale in February 1995. Hall FBI framing me was the headline for one article, which quoted Larry as saying,

I did not kill or kidnap Jessica Roach or any other girl. Unfortunately, the truth will come out is another helpless girl comes out missing. And the real killer is still free to choose among the innocent people of the whole area. God, he's looking out for everybody, guys. All this paving the way for a dramatic trial. May 23rd, 1995, when the curtain lifts on Larry Hall's trial, the jurors could not have

asked for more dramatic opening. Assistant US Attorney Lawrence Beaumont plays the segment about Jessica Roach from America's most wanted. Beaumont then spent four days full days methodically laying out his evidence. First he established how Jessica suddenly disappeared with testimony from the sister who saw her offer off on the bike, the bus driver who first saw the bike abandoned the middle of the road and parents who reported her missing. Beaumont next presented 11 witnesses who had either been targets of Hall's stalking or witnessed it, including the IWU students, the two young Georgetown girls from Hall,

whom Hall followed as the road to bikes, and the father who then drove around town, looking for Hall's two-town van to get the license plate number. The place hall in the area at the time of Jessica's disappearance, the government called four witnesses, who had seen him observing the nearby revolutionary war reenactment. He stood out like a fucking

sore thumb in his civil war hearty hat that he's wearing and mutton chop sideburns. Dude, it may have had the most memorable look of any serial killer we've covered since Arthur Shawcross. The two government witnesses who spent the most time on the stand were FBI Special Agent Mike Randolph and Detective Gary Miller. Beaumont took them step by step to their sessions with Hall and how his confession had unfolded. Beaumont's case culminated with the pictures, notes, and paraphernalia discovered in Hall's room, rooms of his place in Van, especially the map on which Larry had marked in the spots corresponding to the cornfield where Jessica Roach's body was found and the woods by the pond where Miller believed she had been killed.

Now time for the defense right from the start, and his opening remarks, the arm end indicates the tight rope he had to walk with his client. He tells the jurors, you may not like Larry Hall, but he is not here for a popularity contest. I the lawyer admitted that Larry acted in suspicious ways, but only to get attention. Pretty smart defense strategy I have to say. As he explained, my client suffers from a number of mental and emotional problems that led him to engage in a series of very serious and self-destructive behaviors that included planting false evidence in his van, behaving in a manner intending to arouse suspicion,

and eventually making incriminating statements, which we're not true. As DeArman admitted, it was hard to understand Hall's self destructive behaviors, but he assured the jury that police quite often confront people who, for one reason or another, make false admissions or confessions about crimes. They even have a term for it. It's called wannabes. To help this all sound much more legitimate, credible to the jury, the defense now tries a, or you know, they hope to bring in Dr. Richard Offsheep.

Dr. Dick, a social psychologist expert in the field of coerce confessions. Dr. Dick had been on the faculty of the University of California at Berkeley since 1962, had a PhD in psychology from Stanford and had been published widely. Also worked extensively both with local law enforcement officials and with the defense council or with various defense councils. And a pretrial hearing, Dr. Dick had indicated he would have testified about the fact that experts in his field agree that false confessions for sure exist, that individuals can be coerced into giving false confessions and that certain, you know, information can be identified to

show when this is likely to occur. But the district court rejected the proper of Dr. Dicks testimony in its entirety on two grounds. One, Dr. Dickoff she would need to judge the credibility of Randolph's and Miller's testimony about what happened during the interrogation of Hall and two, in the final analysis Dr. Off she's testimony would add nothing to what the jury would know from common experience. Larry's claim that he was only regurgitating what he read in newspapers during his confessions was also proven to be bullshit.

As Beaumont pointed out, he had zero way of knowing the Jessi had been strangled unless he did that. Also Larry described Jess as a bike, as having both curved handles and ten speeds, details he could not have read in the paper. And when he confessed to Randolph about Writer Hall, remember that a barking dog had approached shortly after he seized her. At the time of the abduction police in the area received a complaint about a barking dog, which had never been reported in the press.

So dreams and false confessions, right? My ass. Desperate DeArman now made a bizarre argument. The Larry had learned he was going to lose his counseling services on the day he first met with Gary Miller. So he was forced to pretend he was more of a danger to the community than he was to continue getting appointments. And he signed the statement from Randolph because he was eager to please and was suggestible. Indeed, he even, he didn't even question the first line of the statement where Randolph accidentally wrote, I Larry Dwayne Daniels. Larry himself would testify to his

suggestibility. He said, I love the attention of when they would pull me over and they wanted to question me and I would refuse the questioning and it made me feel important. Like I knew something that they didn't. He claimed that even prepared a script to make it look like he was responsible for Trisha Ryler's murder. Over. Weirdos do do that. So fucking strange. Over hours of cross examination, he didn't deviate from his new story, from his new story.

But Beaumont managed to turn this back around on him. If he was so suggestible while he was up on the stand, you know, why would he disagreeing with Beaumont for hours at a time? Well fucking played Beaumont for hours at a time? Well fucking played, Beaumont well played. With no rebuttal and still no explanation of how he knew important crime details that had never been made public after an eight day trial to jury convicts Larry Hall guilty of the count of kidnapping for the purposes of sexual gratification in an abduction took to jury only three and a half hours. Month later in early July of 1995 Larry is now sentenced.

Before the sentencing is handed down, he tells the court, I would just like to say to you judge a baker and to God in heaven that I did not commit this offense that I'm charged for. I would like to say that I'm very sorry for the loss of Jessica Roach to her family that I'm in no way responsible for taking their child away from them. And I just pray to God that the truth be known that I'm not guilty of this crime in no way. I just pray to God for help with my personal problems and that the truth be known eventually. This is not a church going man by the way, talking about God kinds. Judge Baker felt otherwise.

He said, the jury found Hall guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and the court, namely the judge himself, concurred in the said, the jury found Hall guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And the court, namely, the judge himself, concurred in the finding of the jury. He also discussed a letter or also disclosed the letter he'd received from Jessica's parents. It's a statement of personal sorrow and heartfelt regret from the family and the void that has been created in their lives through the loss of their daughter. And the court takes that into consideration in disposition of this case. So now after Baker sends Larry Hall for the term of his natural life without release, right, for that kidnapping. So that's a sense clearly influenced by Larry's admission to multiple murders. Everyone other than his family, uh, friends,

if he had any, I don't think he did. And defense team, you know, thought that motherfucker was a cold blooded serial killer. Judge Baker added the court elects not to impose conditions of release. It would be pointless in this case, right? IE, this guy is a fucking creepy psychopath. We got to keep behind bars. He added that because the defendant's troubled mental condition, Larry would be assigned a prison at Springfield, Missouri to the psychiatric facility for further evaluation. Now Larry and the armament began to focus on their appeal.

It would go to the seventh circuit court of appeals in Chicago. As Detective Gary Miller sat through opening arguments, he grew worried. He could see things were not going the government's way. The judges on the panel seemed testy with Beaumont, the prosecutor, and willing to listen to Larry Hall. On appeal, Larry made three primary arguments. First, the trial court should have suppressed his confession. Second, the court erroneously admitted evidence of other crimes under Rule 404B, in particular, the rightler case. And third, the court aired in refusing to permit Hall's experts, Dr. Dick, to testify about false confessions and his susceptibility to coercion.

And then a court decision issued on August of 1996 was exactly what Miller didn't want to hear. The appeals court agreed with the defense argument that Gary Miller could have intimidated Hall into a false confession. Some of the evidence indicated that Miller became upset with Hall's responses moved closer to Hall and started suggesting the right answers as the questioning progressed, Judge Diane Wood wrote. Antichrist at Hall was not given as due when it came to witnesses. And since the verdict hinge on a hall state of mind

during the confession would argue to Dr. Offsie, Dr. Dick's testimony would have gone to the heart of Hall's defense. Judge Woodroat properly conducted social science research, often shows that commonly held beliefs are in error. Dr. Offsie's testimony, assuming its scientific validity, would have let the jury know that a phenomenon known as false confession exists, how to recognize it, how to decide whether

it fit the facts of the case being tried. So Beaumont would have to retry this case now with a lot of handicaps. All gets 1997 Beaumont does retry the case against Larry before a different judge without the evidence related to Trisha Ritler, without the problematic testimony that defended with and with the testimony of, know fucking Dr. Dick but the jury still takes less than three hours to convict his creepy obviously well not you know obviously very not well motherfuckers so hail nrrod I wonder how all of that was affecting Larry you know his civil war life right was this interfering with what he had to do with Claire Bell? April 10th, 1865.

My dear, it's Claire Bell. As you most likely have heard, the war is over, and the union has won. I'm sure you'll be contacted any day now by President Lincoln, who will give you several piles of medals for me and talk to you about how the union would have surely been defeated, had I not left home to fight with Valor.

You will also be told about why I'm sadly not returning home. It breaks my heart to inform you that a few rogue rebels seem to have taken over some kind of insane asylum, and 20 of them worked together to hold me down, tranquilize me, and imprison me here. Soon enough, I shall make my escape and make them pay. In the meantime, alas, we will have to remain a part. Please know that I miss you, that I will allow no one to defile me in myself.

And then I will continue to bring our home honor by going peeping the party like a good boy not wearing the bed Court of Lawrence Duane Hall 19th Indiana Volunteer Infantry Regiment Union Army Kern and Santa-Sylam hostage. I am Brigade Still despite Larry's incarceration the appeals court decision didn't flick some lasting damage to the overall Larry Hall investigation no longer would say to turn his threaten him with trials for possible murders and state courts where he could be sentenced to death They lost a major bargaining chip, right? That they could use to get information from Larry about where the bodies were hit Interest by the media law enforcement to link all to other missing persons cases now wanes

Meanwhile the court of public opinion and while Bash starts to claim no doubt spurred on by the halls that Larry was never guilty of anything They've been taken advantage of Larry still had the option for another appeal starts to claim no doubt spurred on by the holes that Larry was never guilty of anything. They've been taken advantage of Larry still had the option for another appeal. Larry Beaumont, Gary Miller, everyone else on the team starts getting nervous. Their convinced that Larry Hall is a very dangerous, very prolific serial killer. And at his next appeal trial, if he gets lucky, right, he'll win a third trial. And if he wins that, he'll be free. They'll have no other charges to throw against him.

They're concerned about how many additional women and girls will start to go missing. So they decide they have to do something to try to get additional charges, or at least more evidence in the kidnapping of Jessica Roach, something to keep him locked up. Right, make sure he doesn't win an appeal. And all this leads them to another convict. Jimmy Keane, who I mentioned up top. Jimmy Keane was born on New Year's Eve, 1963. In a can-cache, Illinois, on the south end of the Chicago land area to James, big Jim

Keene and Lin Keene. I'm trying to say, I probably not getting the flow of can-cache, can-cache, can-cache, right, where it's fucking, I'd never heard of it before. But anyway, big Jim was a decorative police officer. Lin Keene owned a restaurant. Jim seems to have had a pretty idyllic childhood young Jim. This is how he would describe it in his memoir. If you had shown up in my hometown of Kankake, Illinois and asked me in the early 90s, most people would have told you that Jimmy Keane could do no wrong.

I was considered to be some golden child with a handsome heroic father who had been both a police officer and a firefighter and a beautiful mother who had her own popular restaurant. In high school, I let it in three sports was a star running back when our football team went all the way to the state championship game. The caption for an article about one victory read keen in control. Indeed, Jimmy attended Kankakee Eastridge high school was captain on both schools football and wrestling teams, and on the side, you know, did some high-level martial arts. But things aren't always as the same. His parents looked great together, but didn't get along well,

and had a messy divorce when Jimmy was 11, that shattered his illusions about him. They struggled with money. After that, which meant Jimmy's struggle with money, struggled to keep up with the rich kids he hung out with on the varsity sports crew. So he got an idea and decided to sell drugs, specifically wheat. It wasn't some ways of natural fit. He had a lot of charm, a natural fearlessness about him. Nobody would have ever suspected him.

Indeed, to the outside world, Jimmy looked like the high school's golden boy. During the senior year, Jimmy was offered four out-of-state scholarships for football and wrestling, but he was loyal to Illinois, preferring to stay in the Chicago area and went to Triton College. Or maybe not so loyal to Illinois and actually just wanted to expand his growing weed business.

Dropped out of college after two years so we could deal full time to make him crazy money. As far as everyone not buying weed from him was concerned, Jimmy was just very successful. Just a successful out of college as he had been back in high school. After his father retired, the two ran a bunch of businesses together, ranging from trucking and construction to frozen food. Excuse me, Jimmy built a big house for himself in a kankiki, bought a couple of others in Chicago, including one on the Ritzie Gold Coast, wherever he went, always drove the latest Corvette, had a fucking dope Harley as well, had all the cash anyone could want just not because of his businesses with his dad.

Actually those failed one after the other. So Jimmy had to invest more and more money dealing eventually snowballing himself into a kind of kingpin. He built one of the biggest independent drug empires in the Chicago area, bind directly from the region's biggest distributor, a wealthy dude who lived on the river had a matching pair of $40,000 speedboats. Long the way he dealt with attempting a ray of targets for the Feds. His suppliers included a Mexican drug lord, Chicago area, Mofiose.

Among his customers were porn stars, Yuppies, cops, doctors, lawyers, club owners, the adult children of prominent local politicians. With all of his party connections, Keen was invited onto the Chicago set of the color of money when it was filmed in 1975. He was an extra in a few scenes and before he left town director Martin Scorsese told him he could have a career in Hollywood, but that wasn't going to happen. Feds came knocking in 1996. They shattered his front door and his dreams for the future. He was hauled into the courthouse in Urbana where he took a plea on the drug charge and was sentenced surprisingly for him to 10 years in July of 1997

Sense was undoubtedly longer because of his prior charges. He had been picked up in 1992 with his brother Tim While driving around a 150 pounds of weed That's a lot of fucking weed And the fact that Jimmy had two illegal pistols in his nightstand with cops raided his house in 1996 didn't help But Jimmy blamed Lawrence Beaumont, right? That assistant US attorney, the prosecutor for the crushing sentence seemed to stare down at Jimmy like an Old Testament prophet, his voice boom in full of condemnation. So when Beaumont asked to see him later, 1998, Jimmy not real into it. For the meeting with the prosecutor, a sheriff's deputy put

keen in handcuffs and shackles, then marched him into the Ford County Jail's tiny windowless conference room, where his lawyer, Jeff Steinbach, was waiting. Beaumont considered a Beaumont entered and slid a fat legal brief cross the table. Jimmy expected to see a photo of a drug dealer, some local big shot, somebody that cops wanted information on, but instead he sees a battered naked body of a teen girl sprawled between rows of corn. At first, Jimmy thought they might be trying to pin this on him and he quesely flipped through more photos, all naked victims brutally murdered accompanied by Terce police reports. Last photo is of a man's mug shot. It's of course Larry Dwayne Hall. Beaumont, now a much more gentle end demeanor than

he had been in court, explained that he had prosecuted Larry as well and that Larry was serving a life sentence for abducting the dead girl in the cornfield Jesse Roach Boma added we think he's responsible for more than 20 other killings He explained how Hall's first guilty verdict was turned over on appeal and now an appeal was pending on a second conviction It's a government loss of second appeal Boma would have to try Larry again and if Hall won he might go free Jimmy blurted out to the only thing blurted out the only thing he could think of, like, what does this have to do with me? Beaumont was prepared to make Keen a deal.

He transferred Jimmy undercover to the maximum security penitentiary and psychiatric hospital in Springfield, Missouri, where the federal Bureau of Prisons kept its most mentally ill inmates. Their hall was served in his life since as a model prisoner, attending to the building's boiler room,

carving finely crafted wooden falcons and shit in the arts and craft shop. Only the warden and chief psychiatrists there would know Jimmy's objective, to befriend the serial killer. If Jimmy could get him to confess to his crimes and disclose details, then it not previously been publicized.

Then the prosecutor would have keen testify the next time he tried a hole, and a return Beaumont would ask the judge to give Keenan early release. Jimmy's confused again. Why him? Why not some undercover FBI agent? And Beaumont said, Hall would smell him a mile away. I Beaumont didn't think Hall was stupid at all. He'd be too polished and Hall would sense that and clam right up. But you're perfect. You can mix with anyone from the street level to the board level. Even Jimmy had to admit that

was true, but he still didn't want to be involved. He pushed away the folder, but then his lawyer, Jeff pulled him into the hallway and one Steinback had Jimmy in the hall outside the conference room. You hissed, you have to do this. If you succeed, it'll be a total wash on everything. Your sense, you're fine, even your parole hearing that Jimmy was in. Worst case, he just finishes out of sense or you know, gets killed in a very dangerous federal prison. Back inside the conference room, Beaumont tells Jimmy, he just finishes out a sense or you know, gets killed in a very dangerous federal prism. Back inside the conference room, Beaumont tells Jimmy he wanted him to get hauled to admit to killing two a killing in one of the most famous disappearances of the 90s. Trisha Wightler. If you don't get us a location of that body, Beaumont told him you don't

get released. Nobody, no release. Jimmy agrees. Then he's held the jail a few days longer, studying the legal file until it's transferred to the custody of the US Bureau of Prisons. A team of three marshals retrieves him. Justice of Sun is getting a setting on a hot humid day in August of 1998. It had taken Beaumont three months to get the necessary approval from the Bureau of Prisons and higher ups at the Department of Justice in DC. Keen was led from the jail in the usual handcuffs and shackles, but once inside the van, to his surprise, the restraints are removed and the marshals hand him a set of civilian

clothes. Then, stunning him further, stop at a nearby family restaurant, uh, I'll go inside for a meal while the eat they advise him about Larry. Don't approach him too quickly. Don't seem too interested. He's crafty. After dinner, they got back into the van, drove a few hours to the airport, then arrived, they arrived before midnight when Keane and previously flown as a prisoner.

He was chained inside of a ratty old con air cargo plane. This time his ride is a sleek corporate jet, eight plush leather seats, carpeted walls, onboard the Marshalls, serve snacks and soda. They landed a little airport where a van and two other marshals are waiting for them. It was not yet done, had some time to kill, so they drove around Amelsee for a bit, stopped for some fast food. After the eight, they drove down tree line country roads.

As daylight started to break, Jimmy could look out the window, see verdant green farmland at each side, moisture rising from it like steam. Soon he thinks, you know, I might be out, able to see stuff like this all the time. Then the van turned to corner, heads up a driveway, soon a prison emerges in the distance,

built in a depression era institutional style with a white stippling coming off the top, the lighting and high-raiser wire fences gave it an ominous aura like a creepy medieval castle. And now it's time for Jimmy to get to work. And he gets fucking nervous, right? This prison is dangerous. And if a moment he wants to back out, but again, it reminds himself, this is a gamble we're taking. Right? You can quickly get his freedom back. No parole or nothing. So he goes for it. He dropped off by his handlers, given the prison officials who didn't know he was in formant. He's strip searched, issued his bed kit and toiletries, led to a cell through a network of submerged human tunnels lit in a dim yellow haze, a last day surface in nine building, and

a war that looked more like a hospital floor than a prison, but with doors a solid vault like metal. No sooner was he left there than a buzzer echoed to the block, and the convict started to surge out for breakfast. He followed the crowd to a cavernous dining hall with cathedral windows, where noises, clinking plates, strange chatter, shouts echo loudly Tables of bolted to the floor and row after row like pews of a church As Kane looks around to see where he should pick up his tray his eyes suddenly lock on a pudgy little convict with big ass Fucking sideburns sitting in the corner Larry Hall

Lost in his imagines of the pictures he'd seen a halls victims. Jimmy does exactly what he's not supposed to do Bumps right into him. Startled, Hall spends around eyes swimming confused and fearful, Jimmy thinks fast, and he says, you know, he's thought Larry, look cool. Asked him if he knew where the prison library was. Hall has startled again. It's in this building.

He said in the drawer, it sounded slurred by medication. He pointed down the hall, I'll go there to read the paper every day. Do you want me to show you where? And then he said, you think I'm cool? Hell yeah, Jimmy said. Look at the other guys around you. Larry laughs at the little joke. They walked down the corridor to the library where they both sit down and read. When Jimmy snuck a peak, he was surprised to see Larry reading the Wabash plane dealer, but then learns that, you know, the prison would upon request subscribe

to any inmates hometown paper. A couple minutes later, Larry finishes, gets up, leaving without acknowledging Jimmy, but Jimmy thought he had done a good act, you know, good job of making first contact. Later that day, Jimmy would discover that the prison psychiatrist, his only contact other than the warden who knew what his job was in prison, had arranged for his cell to face Larry's. He'd also helped to concoct a new rap sheet for Jimmy that had him smuggling arms across state lines to crime more likely to put him in Springfield the drug dealing. The official diagnosis for keen would be severe depression and Jimmy already been diagnosed with mild depression. They would use complications from Jimmy's allergies

as an excuse to keep him under the direct care of the chief psychiatrist. But he also warned Jimmy nobody likes a narc. If you got find if you got found out a prisoner might get to him as in kill him before the psychiatrist could intervene and save him. And this federal prison was full of a lot more dangerous inmates than the Ford County jail was at Springfield. There were people like Clayton fountain. Motherfucker is terrified. Former Marine who killed a staff sergeant 1974, then became a mayor, a member of the Aryan Brotherhood in prison, murdered two people in prison with crudely made shivs,

then murdered a rival gang leader in prison by stabbing him 67 times. As he stabbed him, he screamed over and over, die bitch, die, die bitch, die. 67 times. Then drag the bloody corpse, the length of the tear before returning to his cell. I'm just waiting like, I don't fuck. Very next year, 1983, slipped out of his handcuffs, repeatedly stabbed three of Marion's correctional officers, killing one and crippling another for life. And now Clayton was 43 years old and more fucking yoke to never looks a picture of this guy a monster chiseled mentally unstable killing machine who was already never getting out of prison what did he care about another murder this is the kind of prisoner held in Springfield this prison was full

of Clayton's nightmare Springfield is home to some of the most dangerous inmates in the nation, also home to nearly 300 other men who maybe didn't have quite the same rap sheets as Clayton, but suffered from chronic psychiatric disorders. Men who could and did erupt in savage and unpredictable ways. This is Jimmy's new home. That night after dinner when everyone else had returned to his cell, Jimmy was surprised to see that Hall's cell was empty. Some reason Larry had run to the place along with privileges that none of the other prisoners seemed to have. Later when Keen's door was locked down along with others on the floor, he saw that Hill had returned and his mission is back on.

During Keen's second morning in Springfield, he's Larry in the dining hall. He doesn't want to approach him again so soon. Also Hall sat in a corner with what looked like a regular group of friends and it would have been pushy and against unwritten prison rules to budding without an invitation. That could start a fight. So he'd have to wait and buy his time, but he could gather info while he did. Later he snuck into Hall's cell, seen we can see from the outside, which included or snuck to the edge of Hall's cell, seen what he could see from the outside, which included

family pictures, one with his brother in a civil war uniform. Larry was allowed to attach a paper cross to the wall, another privilege given only to the best behaved prisoners. Jamie also discovered that Larry didn't have the same schedule as other prisoners because of his janitorial expertise and experience. He was employed fixing boilers, doing other maintenance tasks, meaning he could go everywhere, not just for cleaning, but for recreation as well. And again, is this guy slow or really fucking smart?

Does he really know how to play people? Larry spent a lot of time in the wood shop section of the arts and crafts center. Jimmy meanwhile would have to be in Springfield six months before he could even walk to the shop door. Then he'd have to get on a waiting list to use the equipment. Jimmy's next move is to pretend to accidentally run into Larry in the hallway now. When he does, he comments about the newspaper he'd been reading. Was he from Indiana? When Larry said yes, Jimmy volunteered that he was from a canker key right across the border. Once again, they go to the library together,

just like before Larry gets up, nods, and leaves. Same thing happened the next day, the next, and the next. Finally, when Jimmy was about to give up and ask to be transferred back to Ford County, jail, where he'd still have time to serve, you know, almost a decade, but at least not have to worry about being fucking stab 67 times by somebody like Clayton Fountain. Larry looked up and said, do you want to have breakfast with us in the morning? It's huge, right? Big breakthrough. Jimmy had only been in Springfield, you know, about a week. Next morning when he arrived at Hall's corner of the mess with his tray, he realized that their meals together would be a little more complicated than he thought. First of all, he could see heads turned at the other tables around them. There was a reason why Hall and his friends ate with a buffer of empty chairs around.

As Keem would later learn, the men at this table were collectively known as the baby killers and We're outcasts even amongst the lifers and lunatics of Springfield. One of the other so-called baby killers was a tall and skinny 20-something with a mullet bug eyes. He'd apparently taken a chainsaw and for a noticeable reason murdered an entire fucking family living next door to him. Terrifying. Another table mate was in his 30s with a frog-like face, he said, and reading glasses always perched at the edge of his nose. He had killed several little

girls, or so Keen was told by other inmates. The third was a, he described as a big-and-fack, big-fack guy with a bad case of acne. Jimmy never learned what his crimes were. Jimmy spent most of the meal as the only person talking, cracking jokes, complaining about the food, and luckily Larry seemed to like that. Next time they saw each other in the library, Hal was a little more animated now, saying hello as well as goodbye and making a brief comment about the news. For some reason, he liked called Jimmy James. Jimmy was excited, right? It was working. Also, though, how strange to be in a mental situation, where things are going well, it's because a sadistic sexual predator.

Some serial killer thinks that you're pretty fucking cool. You are super neat. What a mind fuck. Jimmy found Hallmore chatting the never at 7 p.m. that night when they stood together in the pill line outside the nurse's station down the hall from their cells. What are they giving you? Hall asked. First question you'd ever asked Jimmy. Trazodone, Jimmy said for depression. I haven't heard of that one before. Hall then asked him a series of questions about the drug regarding classes and compounds and technical terms that Jimmy had never heard before. Jimmy now starts to wonder, is Larry way smarter than Jimmy had thought? A few days later, Jimmy is told he has visitor. He's expected to be his dad, but when he gets to the administration building, he's surprised to see an attractive blonde. He extends his hand and she pulls him in for a romantic kiss.

And then whispers, don't ever shake my hand. I'm supposed to be your girlfriend. It's Janice Buttcus. Nice of iconic Chicago's bear, Chicago bearers linebacker Dick Buttcus. And that's pretty fucking cool. Also a career FBI agent who had secretly worked away into the prison under a false name. As she held Jimmy's hand and stroked it to make the room seem real, he informed her about his progress. He told her he'd started eating breakfast with Larry every morning and that sometimes Larry looked happy to see him. Sometimes he said that Jimmy told him that he reminded him of his

of his brother or that Larry told him, excuse me, reminded him of his brother, Gary. But Jimmy still had not found a place to have the real conversation with Larry about, you know, what he may have done. Then soon after this visit, a conflict arises for Jimmy that neither he nor the feds anticipated was going to make it, you know, even harder for him to get what he needed. Started one afternoon when Keen was walking down a lonely tunnel cord or before lunch, when he turned a corner, three white weightlifter types with slick back hair surrounded him right fucking Clayton types Jimmy had seen them before in the yard surrounding a stooped

elderly man who seemed like their boss and they just said the old man wants to talk to you and the old man was Vincent Chin Giganter or Giganter then 70 years old he had been the leader of the Genevieve's crime family of New York City. For most early 90s, he'd frustrated federal efforts to prosecute him by pretending to have dementia. He wandered the street to Greenwich Village in a robe and slippers with a vacant stair. Newspapers dubbed him the odd father. It's pretty good. Somebody had a good time with that. In fact, he was among the most sophisticated crime bosses in recent New York Mafia history. Oversy in an extensive syndicate for illegal sports betting rackets and using his control

to trade unions to shake down construction sites. Vincent wanted to know one thing. Let me ask you a question he said. Why are you hanging around with them baby killers? Jimmy pretended he didn't know what they'd done, but Vincent said not to be stupid. From now on he said, Jimmy's eating breakfast with them. Not good. Now Jimmy is effectively restricted to Vincent, you know,

Giganti sell and the mob boss enforces a strict regiment. He expects Jimmy to join him, the minute the dining hall opens, and he wants Jimmy to play a bachibal with him. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, he'd soon discover that Giganti was always out there playing fucking bachie, no matter what the weather was. Giganti expected Jimmy to be his morning bachie buddy

and tell the others got out of work on rare occasion with a ranger snowed. They'd still sit together and watch Jerry Springer. So you got to completely fucking up a chance for early release. One freezing morning in October while they were alone outside on the Batchie court. She got to cock his head up to a wing of the building where hospital patients stayed. And he said, you know, they brought Johnny Gotti in here today. He's right up there in that window.

Jimmy couldn't help but look skeptical. John Gotti, maybe the most famous mafia also in those days, perhaps in all of history, annoyed Jiganti, whistled with two fingers and yelled, Johnny, hey, Johnny! Jimmy peered up to the window, and there he was, John Gotti. The two mobsters started talking via some kind of hands signal code then wave goodbye.

Even if that was an interesting life experience, brought Jimmy no closer to an intimate conversation with Hall. In fact, it was pulling him further away. All he had was a couple of minutes after breakfast now when Jiganti went ahead to the Batchie court. Luckily finally, Larry again provides an unexpected opening. One day, Jimmy is jumping up from his second breakfast with Hall to join a gigante outside. He says, Larry, I'll see you later at the library.

You know, James, Hall replied, if you want, you can start meeting me and my friends in the little TV room on Saturday nights when we watch America's most wanted. Jimmy takes him up on this. Gigante didn't need him Saturday nights. When Jimmy hits over there, he sees a hall and the other three baby killers

sit in the middle of the room, a few rows from the front, smattering of other inmates would be scattered around the remaining chairs, but there was no time to chat. Hall was obsessed with the TV program. Week after week, Jimmy shows up, watching Hall watch the TV.

Even when the program is about serial killers, especially when it's about serial killers. Soon, Jimmy figures out a way to use the TV time to take a shot though at getting closer to Hall. His moment comes near the end of an episode when the parents of a missing victim, like the rightlers, we're pleading for the killer to tell them where he had buried their daughter.

And Jimmy says, you know, if I was the guy, to kill them girls, I just tell everybody where I left them. Hall's eyes went wide and he asked you would Jimmy shrugged and said wouldn't hurt to give the family some closure Especially hypothetically who's never getting out of prison Then you remember the cross on Larry's wall and said at least this way I'd find some kind of peace with God and try to redeem myself Hall knotted, but didn't say anything else Couple Saturdays later an opportunity to become much closer to hall comes up and Jimmy

takes it. Some of the random inmates kicked out of the two better TV rooms, Walks and Turns off America's most wanted, turns it something else. Larry Mumbles about not being very happy, but doesn't do anything. He's kind of small and weak or meek. Jimmy now decides to stand up for his fake friend, jumps up, turns America's most wanted back on when the new inmate now pulls back to hit him Jimmy nails him with four quick shots to the face and really fox him up

Right that martial arts training a high school sports panoff Now Jimmy's putting the hold though Shortly after dawn the next morning He's informed that a hearing about his assault would be at nine and Jimmy's worried real worried If an assault goes on his file and nobody clears it up with the FBI He could end up serving more time than his original 10-year sense and in a much worse place be at nine and Jimmy's worried, real worried. If an assault goes on his file and nobody clears it up with the FBI, he could end up serving more time than his original 10-year sense in a much worse place.

Luckily all the baby killers stick up for Jimmy, saying it was in self-defense. Again, how weird. Thanks, baby killers. You child rapists and kidmirs are the fucking best. Gotta love you you baby killers. Mazzarati Bugara Spaghetti, Mazzarati Bugara Spaghetti, Mazzarati Bugara Spaghetti, Luigi Pizza Pie, Luigi Pizza Pie, Luigi Pizza Pie,

Mazzarati Bugara Spaghetti, Luigi Pizza Pie. If you know you know, anyways, standing up for a haul had paid off. By sticking up for him, he and the America's most wanted baby killing squad are now, you know, fast friends.

Now the next Saturday night, Larry invites Jimmy back to his cell after the show's over. Jimmy surprised by how homey and lived in the cell is. There's a bulb with a dimmer, tennis balls and legs the chair so the chair will slide easier along the floor. There's pictures like it's seen before. Only this time Jimmy also sees a picture of, you know, Larry's parents, hunched over

elderly couple. Jimmy also notices piles of magazine stacks of books on Hall shelves, more reading material than he'd ever seen before in one man's cell. The goggles and gloves hall needed for various janitorial jobs, hung from special hooks, and his closets filled from one side to the other with neatly hung clothes. But more than being evidence that Larry wasn't going anywhere anytime soon, also the perfect place to have an intimate conversation with Jimmy and the chair, Larry leaning over on his bunk. They would now talk every couple days for weeks, usually about

Larry's preferred topics, you know, civil war, Native American lore, vintage cars. Jimmy would notice that religion didn't seem to get Larry to open up and also the topic of women was off the table. If Jimmy said anything like an innuendo, Larry would erupt into giggles like a kid who would just hit puberty This was obviously a guy who had never had consensual sex in his life. Jimmy would later say With this in mind, Jimmy soon started doing what he called girl bashing If you mentioned an old girlfriend, he'd add how badly things turned out with her He'd say things like there are girls out there who use you for money. Should all over you then run off with your best friend. Eventually Larry started to reciprocate. Jimmy said, ever since I've been a young boy,

uh, or sorry, Larry said, fucking Larry and Jimmy. What? Uh, Larry said, ever since I've been a young boy, uh, girls have rejected me. I tried to be nice to him, James, I really would, but they always treat me like shit. Larry would now go on about a girl who would not respond after he said hello. Another he thought laughed at him, a cousin who complained or a parent, who looked at her the wrong way.

Hall still wasn't admitting that what put him into prison. He told Jimmy he was also a weapons runner, but obviously he had no clue about guns. As October rolled on, now Jimmy starts to despair. He'd hoped to be out by Christmas, not looking like that's going to happen. It was seemed again like he just wasn't going to get Larry to admit anything. Also seemed like it was just a matter of time before some fucking nutcase kicked off a fight that could land Jimmy in the hole or worse, you know, get him stabbed. And an inmate he used to know from his last jail showed up in nearly blue as cover by asking Jimmy in front of every one of the dining hall how his drug case was going.

But of course, Jimmy told everybody he was throwing weapons charges. So he feels like he needs to do something fast and he decides just to say it. As a sitting hall sell another night, he says, haven't we been hanging out long enough to tell each other the truth? Larry frowned and asked, what do you mean? Jimmy tells him to be real. Isn't he the same Larry Hall from Wabash, Indiana? Jimmy's mom told him all about him how he was accused of killing girls.

Immediately Larry got nervous. It's not like they said. It's not like they said. It's not like they said. He just kept repeating. Relax, Jimmy told him. Doesn't matter me what you did man. Look at all these crazy people in here. Whatever you did You did it for your own reasons. I just thought that you would have leveled with me because we're friends. I didn't expect to hear this from my mother. Larry seemed relieved. Jimmy now realized Larry was worried about losing him. Larry wasn't used to ever having a friend,

like a real friend, especially not a friend that could fight, you know, it was good looking and cool. He literally never had a friend like that. So now Jimmy starts to probe more. Whenever he asks about the case, Larry says that stuff in the newspapers is made up by Beaumont. So Jimmy asked him, well, what really happened? In the Jesse Roach case, Larry says, I could have dated her. And he talked about how, you know, she was like this girl next door, cute with long brown hair,

seemed nice. Jimmy now realized he'd have to take his girl bashing to the next level to get him to open up more. He tried to dredge up memories of his own bad relationships saying stuff like When I think of all that she put me through I could I could fucking kill her and that works Larry starts to open up more Now he says he spotted Jesse walking her bike and that she got into his vehicle willingly He said things were going great till he tried to kiss her, you know, and now she wanted to get out Remember she was 15 Larry's his time was 30 Doesn't dawn on him how fucked up it was to try and kiss her, you know, and now she wanted to get out. Remember, she was 15. Larry's time was 30. Doesn't dawn on him how fucked up it was to try and kiss her. Now Larry tells Jimmy that if he hadn't put the rag with fluid against her nose, she would have kept hidden me. Jimmy hides feeling disgusted about all this acts like, you know, it was

fucked up for her to make him do that. Then he asked when they got to the part of the story where Larry tells him he parked the vehicle and got on the back and also pulled her into the back, did he have sex with her? Larry replied with a vacant look. Kinda had a blackout and then it was like a dream and I see myself beating honor and using the rag honor. And then I wake up and her clothes are off and my clothes are off.

So I think we had sex together. Then Larry tells Jimmy that when he snapped out of his dream, Jesse was crying for her mother, which made Larry uncomfortable. Said he put his clothes on, then let her naked out of the van, told her to sit with her back against a tree. Larry, Jimmy would remember, later,

Larry would remember how Larry said, he showed me with his fingers how he would interlock two leather belts. He then got behind the tree so he wouldn't have to see her face. He whipped the belts around her neck, used a slick, used a stick to twist them like a tourniquet and it's kept turning and turning until he didn't hear her make another sound. After this, Jimmy, you know, he has a confession now. But no matter how much it turned his stomach, he had a pretend like nothing had changed between them.

A few days later, Jimmy broke the topic again, right? He's supposed to try and find the body. What about this other girl that keep talking about this rightler girl? Once again, Larry assured him that it was not like it was talked about in the papers. He said that, well, yeah, it was true that he approached Ryler after she left the store. He didn't immediately confront her with a knife. He's not a fucking psycho He's a very nice civil war soldier who keeps having some lady problems He said me and her were talking she was friendly with me James She was one of the first girls that I ever talked to you. That was being nice to me and his initial confession agent Randolph

Larry said the Trisha tried to run away and he stabbed with a knife then had sex with her on a tarp outside the van Now he tells Jimmy that she got into the van willingly Jimmy would later recall He made a sound like she went inside the van herself But he admitted he had a knife so you can't believe she was willing to be with him And then he got bugged I started talking like he was in a trance When I tried to kiss her uh Larry said she started going crazy on me, hit me, punch me, want to me to get out of the van. Said now that he started choking her to make her

stop. He added that he then blacked out. And then when he woke up, you know, we're close rough. And she was silent and not moving. He said he felt for a pulse, but there wasn't one. He buried her that night in a place way out in the country. This is exactly what Jimmy needed to hear. He just needed a little more. Where did he bury her?. How was he gonna get Larry to tell him the location? He was having a hard time maintaining his composure. Now that the end was in sight, full of excitement, it possibly going home soon, but also dreaded the prospect of having to hear more of these gross details. Finally, in January of 1999, Jimmy decides he's gonna go for the final piece of the puzzle. Storms into Larry's cell, but it's empty. Goes to look

for Larry in the arts and crafts center looking over at the wood shop area. He sees Larry from behind sitting in front of his workbench. Jimmy creeps closer and closer until he can see what Larry's working on. One of those wooden falcons. There's 10 or 12 of them. Larry had them lined up at the top of a big piece of paper, actually a black and white photocopy map of Indiana and Illinois with several red dots scattered around. Hey Larry, Jimmy said. Larry so startled, he almost fell out of his chair.

Jimmy picked up one of the Falcons, Larry said he was going to send it to his brother Gary. When Jimmy asked him what the birds were for, he said they were there to watch over the dead. Jimmy now realized what was really going on. Larry was going to mail the map and the Falcons to Gary so he could go back to the crime scenes in his place. A lot of people do suspect Gary of being a part of this, that they were a team.

Gary's never been arrested in charge, but it is a suspicion. He says goodbye to Larry. Then Jimmy runs to the nearest prison pay phone, leaves a long message for Agent Butcus, tells her about the map, goes back to his cell to pack up, assumes that she's handling things on her end now. When he sees Larry return across the hall, he decides to his cell to pack up, assumes that she's handling things on her end now. When he sees Larry return across the hall, he decides to give Larry peace his mind and to ease his own conscience.

About how he's getting out early because girls are dead, their family's torn apart, he goes to Larry's cell, tells him he's going home soon. Larry freezes in fear, or what do you mean? Just had a few things to work in out, pretty good for me. Jimmy said, you know, Larry, those things that you did were rotten shit. I don't see how you could live with yourself doing that. And apparently, Larry then got cold and said,

boom, I'll send you. Jimmy denied it, but they both knew it was true. Jimmy backed out just as the cells were locked up, but he forgot one thing that Larry had his maintenance job, which let him out at 3 a.m. Plenty of time to go destroy that map. Fucking Jimmy, right? Just couldn't keep his mouth shut. Just for a couple days to make sure the FBI knew. Jimmy fell to him to a blissful sleep, woke up as a doctor, burst into Jimmy's room, asked him what the hell he was doing, who had sent him, to guards grabbed him by the arms,

said they were taking him to the hole until he told him the truth. He would be there for days, hoping that the FBI would intervene, but hearing nothing, not even the guards would listen to him. Days then turned into weeks. Jimmy heard the guards beat up inmates and the cells next to him when the prisoners refused medication.

Another week in hell passed before the chief psychiatrist, his only contact, I don't know what a fuck he didn't come earlier, finally come to visit. And he's, he whispers, Jim, what's going on? These guards are all telling me how angry you are and that you were kicking on the door. They also said you told him you worked for the FBI. You're not supposed to say that. Now at the end of his rope, Jimmy makes a threat. He says unless he gets to talk to Agent Buttcase, he's going to tell everyone that the chief side-chiatrist is a rat for the FBI as well. Later that day, three guards

deliver him to her to Buttcase. And the first words out of her mouth are, Jim, I'm so sorry. For whatever reason, they didn't understand what he was trying to say in the message and didn't think he had what he had. On the airplane back to Ford County jail, maybe had a talking code because of other inmates around the phone. On the airplane back to Ford County jail now, Jimmy eats turkey dinner. Still doesn't know when he's going home though. Doesn't know if they managed to get the map or not.

Butt Kiz takes him directly to Chicago's MCC from the airport after a mercifully brief stay there sent to mylin michigan where Jimmy uses a cover story about winning an appeal, then abruptly again yank back to Illinois first to the MCC then to Ford County jail, where he's told he'll have to wait a few weeks for a sentencing judge Harold Baker to return from vacation. His lawyer Jeffrey Steinbeck confirms the Falcons in the map not recovered. But kept a sure and Jimmy that the feds were going to provide some reward for his travails, especially after his stint in the hole.

Jimmy for his part also knew that he knew more about Larry Hall than anybody else now. Suddenly one morning without warning, the Ford County Guard shackled Keen, again, bundled him over to the courthouse 30 minutes away. At first he thinks the judge says return from his vacation, but instead of a holding cell, he finds himself in Larry Beaumont's office and Beaumont offers him a donut. Jimmy turns him down, but then Beaumont asks him to take a lie detector test. All the questions are about Larry Hall. He shackled again, taken out, right? Not told a lot of stuff. This must be so fucking

infuriating. Before they can march him out of the building, Beaumont, though, pulls him aside and says, Jimmy, you did wonderful. You passed it. February 23rd, 1999, Beaumont files what is known is motion for reduction of sentence under rule 35B stating, Mr. Keane was placed in an undercover role at the Bureau of Prison's medical facility in Springfield, Missouri. He conducted this activity for approximately six months. He was able to gain specific information from the target of the investigation, which may lead to the solving of a kidnapping and murder case from Indiana. During this time, Mr. Keen was placed in a facility in which he faced substantial danger. The next day, he was taken to a courthouse. It was a lengthy process, but Jimmy knew the outcome when Judge Baker leaned over and whispered,

young man, I can tell you, Ben to hell and back. Just bear with me while we go through the formalities. The 35 B motion to reduce Jimmy's sense to time served with a few months to spare. It was granted. Even though they never recovered the body of Tricia Wightler, everyone agreed Jimmy had done his part. He gathered more evidence, which almost certainly assured that Larry would never win an appeal, never get a new trial.

Even if he did, with Jimmy's testimony on top of other evidence, you know, he'd almost certainly lose that trial. Ironically within days, Jimmy's passing the lie detector test, the seventh circuit released his decision on Larry Hall's second appeal. This time, the jury's guilty verdict was affirmed with the court finding that the judge acted appropriately and admitting and barring expert testimony for the retrial. Now let's skip a full decade ahead. 2009 Gary Hall says he visited his brother in prison in March that year and convinced Larry to speak with detectives investigating the Michelle Dewey murder. Uh, indeed during that visit Larry confessed that killing, uh,

his first killing was in 1979 when he was just 16 and confessed to 14 other murders. He admitted to killing a hitchhiker and burying the body near the Missus, a Santa wall river amongst other killings in California, Colorado, Illinois, Missouri, Wyoming. I don't believe he's making any of this up. He's got too many specific details. Gary Hall would say, but Gary have something to do with that shit. 2010 Larry confessed to kidnapping and killing Laurie Deppas. And in 2011 Larry Hall would send a letter to Christopher Halley Martin who wrote a book about Hall's crimes titled Urges, a Chronicle of Serial Killer Larry Hall. In a letter he claimed he abducted Paulette Webster.

Said he took it from the main east and west roads through Chester, near a mobile home park. Said he took it to a remote location where he sexually assaulted her for hours before strangling her. Couldn't remember if he threw her body in the Mississippi River or buried her. He wrote, if I did it, I would have put her in a river or in a field. He's still in prison today. Now in buttoner North Carolina at the Federal Correctional Complex there, another succ subject, former sucks subjects, is with him, R Kelly, not kidding. Maybe right now, R Kelly is taking a piss on Larry Hall.

After fuck it, it's possible. Just thought that was the inner-sync connection. Maybe Larry is writing one of his letters about it. May 17th, 1874. My dear is Claribel. I keep longing to write you the letter of my impending arrival home. But alas, today is still not that day. Today I'm afraid my love is a terrible day.

The rebels who control this insane asylum have given me a sellmate, a horrid creature, ironically a former slave I fought so hard to free. And how does he, Mr Mr. Kelly repay me? He breaks my long hard fought streak of waking up to dry sheets Well, I remain a good boy who goes peepy in the potty He's a bad boy who goes peepy on my body Come on even if you've hated this guy so far pays off at least a little bit there doesn't

Uh, anyway, Hall has yet to be tried for these murders he's confessed to. He really is in that prison with Arkelli, by the way. And not so many so anyway, Hall has yet to be tried for the murders he confessed to. Why not? Because he recanted those confessions all of them. He claimed an interview with the Associated Press also in 2011 that he had abducted 39 women between 1980 and 1994 and then recanted that. He just keeps going back and forth. He just keeps doing this all part of this sick game of acting like he just loves to confess shit. eleven that he abducted thirty nine women between nineteen eighty nineteen ninety four and then recanted that is keeps going back and forth he just keep doing this all part of the sick game

of acting like he just loves to confess it he's a wannabe right everything i said is a lie i imagine doing all this in an attempt to uh... you know finally get an appeal regarding that kidnapping charge uh... jimmy keen uh... said in numerous interviews over the years that he deeply regrets not waited until he knew the FBI had Larry's map before confronting him. He knows that if he would have just kept quiet, 20, 30, 40 fucking 50, who knows? You know, different families would have gotten closure regarding the loss of their daughters,

sisters, mothers, etc. And now let's get out of this timeline. Good job, soldier. You've made it back. Barely. Larry Hall and Jimmy Keane, what a story. Two very different men, randomly united by crimes, one man's disgusting predatory crimes, likely crimes. Another man's attempts to live the high life that spiraled out of control. Born in

Wabash, Indiana, December 11, 1962, literary Duane Hall grew up the socially timid son of a grave digger, a child beset by a more successful twin and a variety of developmental issues, including a reportedly low IQ. He was connected to a string of thefts, arson, and petty crimes throughout the town of Wabash during his high school years, but he was soon graduated to kidnapping for sure, and very likely to the mutilation rape and murder of possibly a lot of girls and young women. Authorities believe he committed murders close to historical reenactment sites as he was obsessed with the Civil War and then got into the Revolutionary War and more from 1991 up to when he was arrested in November of 1994. He has said though that he

started murdering in 1979, but he said a lot of shit. Whenever he started, one event would put an end to his crimes pre the kidnapping and murder of 15-year-old Jessica Roach. September 23rd 1993, Jessica Lynn, Jesse Roach, last seen at approximately 3.30 pm right nearby sickle near her home in George Town, Illinois on November 8, 1993 her body discovered in a cornfield near Perry'sville, Indiana. After a witness came forward saying they had seen a man driving a van around the cornfield in early 1994 several other people called the police about an unidentified man driving a van, a creep talking to young girls. It was of course Larry Hall, you know, Mr. fucking creepy mutton chops himself. After the FBI got involved, the request to Gary Miller, this would lead to his interrogation and arrest, but more questions remained.

What had happened to Trisha Wightler? Where were the many girls suspected of becoming Larry's victims? And why did Larry kill the way he did? Some of these questions would be answered by an unlikely source, Jimmy Keane, an Illinois drug dealer who became an FBI informant and managed to win Larry's trust and discover did. Some of these questions would be answered by an unlikely source, Jimmy Keane, an Illinois drug dealer who became an FBI informant and managed to win Larry's trust and discover his secret map, allegedly, assumed to reveal the locations of bodies. Unforçing the map, never been recovered, and questions still remain. Indeed, people are still investigating

Larry Dwayne Hall. There are still families looking for answers, still families who remember the day that their child left their house or their own apartment never to return. If hall did everything that hall has been accused of, he's one of the most prolific serial killers in the Midwest, if not the most, but he's made all these claims and withdrew them said detective Joey Loughlin with the Fayette County Police Department who are still investigating the disappearance of another possible hall victim, 18 year old Denise Flume. Let's head to our takeaways. Number one, Larry Duane Hall suspected of killing up to 40 women between 1979 and 1993. The vast majority of them, young between the ages of 10 and 26, with a strong preference

for shorter college age girls with brown hair. The vast majority of them, young, between the ages of 10 and 26, with a strong preference for shorter college-aged girls with brown hair. Then there was the 32-year-old also, allegedly one of his victims. Number two, it wouldn't be a murder or well, would be an implied murder that would put him in prison, but rather a kidnapping that resulted in death. This was in the case of Jessica, Jesse Roach, who disappeared from her Georgetown Indiana home while riding her bike in the neighborhood and was recovered weeks later. Her body was mutilated in a cornfield by a farmer's combine and also by Larry Hall. Investigators couldn't pinpoint where Jesse was killed, making building a case against

him more difficult, which is why he was not found guilty of murder, but he was still put away for life. Number three, Larry Hall consistently is claimed to be a wannabe, someone who seeks approval from cops by, you know, reading about crime stories and pretending to be the perpetrator. He's done this so much. He's become an integral part of his defense and a higher court did rule that his first trial aired and not letting expert testimony about false confessions be heard by the jury. Number four, Larry might have won a second appeal.

We're at not for the work of Jimmy Kean. Jimmy managed to infiltrate the hardcore spring, filled Missouri federal prison where Larry was held and slowly gained his trust over months to get him to confess where the bodies of his victims were. Particularly, Trisha Ryler were buried or tried to give him to confess to that. Unfortunately, the map that Larry made to watch over the dead was never recovered, but Jimmy's contribution did prove invaluable. And he was released early for his hard work. And now number five new info, Jimmy's keen, here's his story was the subject of the series Blackbird released on Apple TV plus in the summer of 2022 starring Terran Egerton, Jimmy

and Paul Walter Howzer as Larry. Both were fantastic. I was familiar with Taryn from the film's Rocket Man where he played Elton John and you know at least I knew that he was in the Kingsman franchise. Not familiar with Paul Walter Halzer but holy shit he blew me away. He was a guy who did that that voice, did the Larry Hall kind of impression of my favorite portrayal as far as being distinctive of a serial killer in a movie since Ted Levine played Buffalo Bill in Science of the Lamps, right?

Mr. Uh, do you think I'm sexy? I think I'm sexy. I fuck me. Greg Keneer also kills it in the series playing Brian Miller and Ailes for Detective Gary Miller and the late great Ray Leota plays big Jimmy Keene Jimmy's father. Highly recommend watching it. Larry Hall prolific serial killer or wannabe has been sucked. Very sad obviously, but also very interesting story. Very dramatic with Jimmy Keene's role in it. Man, what a weird life Jimmy's had. Thank you to Sophie Evans for her initial research. obviously, but also very interesting story, very dramatic with Jimmy Keane's role in it. Man, what a weird life.

Jimmy's hat. Thank you to Sophie Evans for her initial research. And thanks to the team here, including the suck Ranger, Tyler C recording editing, this episode staying late again. Just cramming a lot of recordings in this week. Next week, we do return to the cold war, Easybo Jangles. According to writer Noberto Fuentes, Fidel Castro was the spokesman for silence for the man who has no army, no Congress, no face, the man who has nothing.

Here to some ruthless dictator to many, July 26, 1953, Fidel Castro and a group of supporters attempted to raid military barracks controlled by the Cuban army. Several were killed, more were arrested, including Castro. It marked the start of what they called the movement, which became known as the Cuban Revolution. At the time, Castro was a lawyer, hoping to run for the Cuban Congress. Castro learned about socialism and Marxism at the university. He went to and dreamed of transforming Cuba's corrupt government. The elections were suspended when former president Fulhencia Batista took over the government, outraged Castro and other like-minded individuals planned a revolution.

Although his original plan failed, Castro was released after serving two years in prison. He fled to Mexico and organized a larger rebellion. Castro and his followers, who called themselves the 26th of July movement, one control of Cuba through persistent guerrilla attacks against the army and by gaining support from the masses. January 1st 1959, Fulhencio, but Tista was forced to flee the country, marking the end of the Cuban revolution and the beginning of Castro's regime, which would influence world politics for decades. While Castro originally promoted ideas of freedom and democracy, he replaced Batista as another dictator-like figure. A worse one. Thousands executed in prison. Castro puts strict limits on freedom of speech and freedom

of the press, transformed Cuba into a communist country by nationalizing property and businesses. He made reforms that improved quality of life for Cubans, maybe initially like increased access to healthcare and education. However, there were times in the Castro regime where Cubans faced starvation and severe economic problems. Fidel Castro remained in power from 1959 all the way to 2008, dealt with multiple U.S. presidents and world leaders, allied himself with the one's powerful Soviet Union, and at one point made the world terrified of an impending nuclear war. Castro was a symbol of socialist revolution, but just as many if not more people hated him. Hundreds of thousands of Cubans fled the country to escape his regime.

Regime, there we go. Next week we'll cover the Cuban Revolution, how it started, how Castro and a group of socialist guerrilla fighters took over a nation, and we'll also cover the life and government of Fidel and his conflicts with the US, including the Bay of Pigs and Vazion and the Cuban Missile Crisis.

All right here, but that's next week. Right now, it's time for today's updates. Updates, get your time sucker updates. Staying on top of shit sucker, NM. Send me a link to an update. I got a few of these actually. An update to episode 311, the murder of DD Blanchard, did she have it coming? Well, here's the information I found. Gypsy Rose Blanchard, the childhood abuse victim, victim of Munchausen by proxy syndrome

convicted and mother DD's murder, has been granted early release from prison. In July of 2016, Blanchard then 24 years old pled guilty to second degree murder for her role in the killing of her mother, Claudine, DD Blanchard. She was sentenced to 10 years in prison, now set to be released this December 28th. And she is 32. Her boyfriend, 34 year old Nicholas Gaudijon, was convicted of first degree murder and he remains in prison for life. I am glad she's getting out early.

After the hell, her wicked mom put her through. I'm glad the DD is getting out. And I hope she can find a lot of happiness over the next 30 plus years of her life to try and help make up for the hell of the first 30 plus years of her existence. She said in interviews that she has had far more freedom in prison than she ever had,

living with her mom who kept her continually sick and lied to her about her health for two decades. Now Super Sucker Jack Jones has a message, uh, so, uh, uh, poignant, definitely sad, uh, but also, I don't know, I don't know what other ad shift to use. I'll just let you hear it. He writes, Hey, Dan Dan, the guy whose dad is a serial killer man. I'm writing to you today with both sad and also kind of funny slash sweet news. About a week ago, my best friend died

when she had a seizure while alone in her apartment. We met online in the mean group. I happened to be driving from my city to her city for work about a six-hour drive. We said, fuck it, decided to meet in person. We clicked his friends instantly. Same sense of humor, same political views. We won't discuss those because, well, you know

how much angle feels, you fucking commies. Same views on almost everything. We kept in touch, visiting often, and also keeping our friendship alive through many boyfriends for her and girlfriends for me. And all of them had to be okay with it, or they could fuck off. Lately we both been struggling, but also thriving. We were both excelling in our careers. She got married.

He was awful, and her if you're listing suck a dick. And I was moving towards getting engaged. At the same time, my depression, uh, that is never situational. Always seems to pop up right when life is good. Was absolutely wrecking me. And she was dealing with an abusive relationship and mental health issues. Whenever we would struggle, sometimes we'd fall out of contact

and miss messages or take forever to reply. The day after I reproposed to my now fiance, I got the news that she was gone. I opened up my Facebook messenger later that day and saw I had an unread message from her. I just listened to the Hillside Strangler episode. Don't know how you made it through that Italian accent parts or through the Italian accent parts. Dan, I've been doing almost that exact same thing for years as an inside joke with her. Her last message was about your podcast, how it reminded her of me. I introduced her to it and it made me so happy and sad and grateful all at once.

Grateful for the friendship we had, for the community you've built, happy in a, I laughed my ass off way and sad of course that I never replied. I can never reply to another message from her again. Thanks so much and if you can, please give a rest in peace and a rest well to Ariana. Suck on forever, Jack. Jack, so sorry for the loss, your friend. I love how much you cared about her.

And of course, I can give a rest well to Ariana. Ariana, I hope you are up there in the singularity or beyond it, somewhere outside of time and space, immortal. I hope you're somewhere that lies, you know, outside of the big bang, both before and after it to the great Nimrods Alpha and Omega, eternal ball sack. But seriously, I hope you were out there beyond the realms of science, beyond the realms of our understanding, beyond our earthly struggles here for understanding and acceptance, building our castles made a sand, trying to grab on to moments that never let us truly hold on to them as they pass by, rest easy, and fucking live forever.

Ariana, hail Nimrod. And finally a shout out from Lovebird Meat sack Claire Reynolds who writes, Hi Dan, O'Grate Master of the Suck. My name is Claire Reynolds from Orman Beach, Florida. First of all, I want to say thank you for all the laughs. My boyfriend Luke introduced me to your podcast about a year ago. Now we're both hooked. Luke travels for work. So we listen to some episodes together when we can. But if he's out of town, we always enjoy discussing episodes we've listened to recently or recommend any particular episodes to check out on our own. Either

way, it's become an endless stream of inside jokes. We both whip out at random times for a laugh. And of course, we both think we do excellent impressions of your jokes. What is big deal? Luke's birthday is October 12th. He'll be 37 this year. We've been dating for almost two years. And I'm experiencing more joy, happiness, and communication that I ever have in a relationship. We were introduced to each other not too long after my divorce at a time when I felt broken, jaded, and so unsure of life and the people around me. He showed me that solid, trustworthy meat sacks do exist. And then it is possible to find someone out there with whom you can create a relationship in a future on equal footing as a team.

Luke truly practices the philosophy of trying to be a better person each day. And in turn, he has inspired me to be a better person as well. So I'd love for you to give a happy birthday shout out to my partner in crime, love of my life and my wild man, Luke Turner. Claire, what a beautiful message. So glad you have found so much love and hope where they used to be pain, happy birthday, Luke. Now don't fuck this up! Claire is counting on you to not be a piece of shit. So don't be one. If I find out you are,

I'm gonna try and frame you for something and I'm gonna hope that you end up Springfield or fucking wherever at North Carolina now behind bars with Larry Hall and Arkelly I hope the three of you end up in the same cell a cell filled with piss, lube and civil war memorabilia Bob been seriously enjoy the ride you're on, you know soak it up Staying that happy little love bubble for as long as you possibly can hail Nim Nimrod, Hail Lucifina, and let's get the fuck out of here. Thanks, time suckers. I need a net. We all did. Thank you for listening to another Bad Magic Productions podcast, scared to death, time

suck each week. Please do not become a civil war reenactor. As an excuse to get away with killing girls or young woman or to hide your B.O. this week meets X. Don't kidnap or kill anyone. Take a shower every day. Use some soap and keep on sucking. I'm Magic Productions. October 9, 2023. My dear is Clare Bell. I don't know if I'll ever get out of this insane asylum.

Why? Why me, dear Clare Bell? A war hero should never suffer this fate. The rebels still have the bunking with Mr. Kelly. If he's not trying to piss on me, he's singing. If I hear I believe I can fly, trapped in the closet or bumping grind one more time, I shall truly lose my mind. The only thing I enjoy about his company is how we seem to share similar views about young women. The only good news I have to share, I remain forever and always.

A good boy who goes pee pee on the potty and doesn't whip my bed. Our Kelly takes care of that for me most nights.