Timesuck with Dan Cummins - Short Suck #4 - The Dark Disappearing Act of John List

Episode Date: February 23, 2024

Today's Short Suck is all about John List.  With a bankruptcy looming, worried about the shame he'd face for no longer being able to provide his family with the life they'd grown accustomed to, and supposedly worried about their salvation as well, John makes some extreme and horrific choices to "save" their souls. Hope you enjoy! And have a great weekend!Watch the Suck on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Aia59A-hm5YFor Merch and everything else Bad Magic related, head to: https://www.badmagicproductions.com

Welcome to this edition of Time Suck Short Sucks. I'm Dan Cummins and today I will be sharing the insane story of John List, a sad, pathetic, troubled man who really lost his way in 1971. John prided himself on providing for his family. He felt his primary role in the family was to provide both wealth and moral guidance. But then his wife started to refuse to accompany him to church. His daughter began to rebel against his moral guidance as well. And he was fired from the big money corporate job that paid his family's many expensive

bills. Keeping the loss of his job a secret and about to go bankrupt, John was faced with a choice. Should he alert his family to their current very precarious financial state and deal with whatever backlash came from that. Should he abandon his family and hope that they would just never track him down? Or should he do something much more drastic? Something that would ensure he would never have to face his disappointed family and hear them cry and blame him for their fall from grace? Something that would ensure he would never have to see them become destitute, or to send further into what he perceived as moral decay.

Something that would set him free. Let's find out. Words and ideas can change the world. I hated her, but I wanted to love my mother. I have a dream! I'll plead not guilty right now. Your only chance is to leave with us. John Emilist was born in Bay City, Michigan, September 17, 1925.

The only child of German-American parents, John Frederick List, shop owner and Alma Barbara Florence List, both devout Lutherans. John Frederick List was 25 years older than his wife and he was her first cousin once removed, which is especially creepy, creepier, I think, than marrying your first cousin. Think about one of your cousins right now, a first cousin, you know, who would be one of your parents, siblings, children, someone who might feel a lot like a sibling themselves. And then, if they have a kid, think about marrying that kid. That's exactly what John Frederick listed.

He married one of his cousin's kids. A solid start to the story. It was actually John's second marriage, making this all even cringier. Alma had nursed his first wife as she was dying from cancer and then just took her place when she died. Wow. Uh, you have your cousin's kid who's 25 years younger than you. Come over to help take care of your sick wife,

and when your wife dies, you court and marry her if you weren't already fucking around with her while she was nursing your wife, which she probably was. Come on. John Frederick List, super cool dude. The couple and then the family once they had a child lived in a nice Victorian in the cute town of Bay City, which does look like a pretty adorable place to live.

Sandwiched between Saginaw and Lake Huron's Saginaw Bay. Though they didn't necessarily need the money, John Frederick was very frugal, to a fault. And they rented out the upstairs half of their house, which left their son John with no bedroom. Instead, John had to sleep in the parlor, with zero privacy and zero space for his personal effects. No closet, nothing. This is something that embarrassed him deeply and made him feel like he was always in the way and extra and add on unwanted. Yeah, if they truly didn't need the money, this is so fucking weird. John Frederick, cousin's daughter fucker, shitty, uncaring father. Got it. Because of this young John learned to be neat and to always put his things away so he could

just blend into the background and not be a bother. He did not have a happy childhood. John was expected to always behave perfectly, excel at school, uphold the faith of their church and aside from that, you know, keep quiet and out of sight. You know, children should be, maybe be seen, definitely not hurt. John would grow up excelling at following the rules at school, at home, in a church, something that would lead to him, you know, feeling superior to other children, perhaps to compensate for feeling inferior at home.

And had good reason to feel inferior at home. John's father only dealt with him through his wife, referring to his son as the boy, never by his name. Why do some people have kids? Laterless acts of violence would prove that he thought of his children the same way as property to do with what he wished. Alma protected young John, brought him into her social life, which was entirely centered on what else but the church. Most nights, they read the Bible together or practiced John kept up until her death.

While better than her husband, Alma wasn't that great of a parent though either Alma continually feared that John might get sick So she watched him constantly keeping him dressed up to stay warm and dry He was not allowed to go out and play with other boys in case you know, he got messy Well into his teenage years John would hold his mother's hand whenever the two crossed the street. And people thought he talked like his mom too. Dear God, I jokingly now try to hold Min Rose hand who's 16. Sometimes we're out in public. And these attempts are met with immediate rejection and a stink guy as they should be.

I only do it because I know she would be horrified by some other kid who knows her, seen her whole dad's hand in public at 16 years old. I get it. My mom mess with me the same way. When I was a kid, it's weird. Not the cultural norm at all here to hold mommy and daddy's hand when you cross the street as a teenager. Holding mommy's hand across the street when he was old enough to drive was not something that made John, you know, super popular at school. His dad didn't help him with popularity either. I love this next little story. Well known as the neighborhood crackpot. A character, if you will.

John Frederick Cousenfucker was infamous for his devout adherence to his interpretation of the local flavor of Lutherism, his church preached, which held that no one could ever know whether or not they were saved by God. But you can infer your general position with God through, say, being rich. That meant you had God's favor, which on the flip side meant that the poor were sinful. Fucking bummer for the poor, right? Getting the short end of the stick

in this world and the next. The opposite of the teachings of most Protestant denominations. Usually it's the meek, shell and hair at the earth, but for John Frederick, it was like, nah, fuck the meek. And John Frederick taught his son that it was a man's job to hold morality within his family and work hard and make a bunch of money and basically do nothing

else. Anyone who expected to get anything for free was by definition a sinner. This is the part I love. Even kids on Halloween coming by and asking to be given free candy, right? Trick or treat. They were deadbeat mooch sinners. No treats. John Frederick, uh, was a walking bummer.

Uh, one year, knowing based on previous years that John Frederick was not going to be given out any damn candy. The neighborhood kids decided to trick him, right? He can get some tricks for not going to give us treats. Uh, and they did a bit of ding dong ditching. They called it where some kid will walk up, ring his doorbell a few times, then run off, hiding the bushes with his buddies. And then when John Frederick went into the door, couldn't find anybody,

they'd laugh, their little ass is off, and when he'd yell at them, they'd laugh some more. Well, eventually John Frederick got real sick of this. He sounds like he was a pretty easy guy to rile up. I wish I had like a, I wish this was in a movie scene I could watch. And he tried to run some of these kids down. But then fell over after he tripped on a rocket, he ate shit. Not only did he trip and fall, he sprained his ankle badly and then rolled around on the ground for a while, howling like a little baby.

Oh my God, I bet those kids had a real good laugh at his expense. I know I would have. If I'm his neighbor and I watch all this, I am on the ground as well, ugly laughing with tears rolling down my cheeks. Holy shit, that would be so fun to watch, ugly laughing with tears rolling down my cheeks. Holy shit, that would be so fun to watch. I'm jealous whoever got to see that. I bet those kids laughed about that moment off and on literally for the rest of their

lives. Even better. Neighborhood kids. Now nicknamed John Frederick. Trick or treat Johnny because of this incident. They would call out to him and snicker at his annoyed reaction for years following this. Love it so much. It's not like a dick.

It's not like you got what he deserved. Young John, meanwhile, was also teased for having such a dork of a dad. In high school, John was not amongst the popular kids. In the yearbook, he was given the bland honorific of most likely to serve in the Army supply corps. Hey, dork, you're gonna be perfect for making sure guys cooler than you and fighting in stuff will have rations and uniforms in it.

In the end, the kids who gave John that title, where they were sort of right, uh, list graduated from Bay City Central High School in 1943 in the middle of World War Two. That same year, he enlisted in the U.S. Army and will go on to serve as a laboratory technician in Louisiana. Other soldiers will later not remember him fondly. He was an outcast. Other soldiers will describe him with words like prissy and pious, a mama's boy. He would see some action though. The very end of the war in the spring of 1945, he was shipped out to Europe where his unit was captured by Nazis. But the very same afternoon his unit was captured, it was clear to the Nazis things were not going their way and the same Nazi unit that captured John's unit ended up surrendering back to them a few hours later in hopes of getting favorable treatment from the Allies

once the war was over. What a weird day for those soldiers. Stop! Where do you think you are going? You are prisoners! Lay down your weapons! Now pick your weapons back up! Please be nice about it. We could have kept you prisoners. Lay down your weapons. Now pick your weapons back up. Please be nice about it. We could have kept you prisoners.

We're laying down our weapons now, but Hitler's insane. And we'd like to please be taken to America. Uh, John was technically a POW for a couple of hours. And because of this, he'd be awarded a bronze star. In total, he was overseas for 34 days. After this was discharged in 1946, he consulted with his mom about what to do next. Of course he did. Please, mommy, tell me what to do.

John father died at the age of 80 in August of 1844. Uh, while he was away for the military, if that bummed him out, he never said anything to my knowledge. Uh, John on mom's advice ended up enrolling at the university of Michigan in Ann Arbor, where he earned a bachelor's degree in business administration and then a master's degree in accounting, which is impressive. He did well in school, maintained a B average, but when it came to internships and jobs, he failed to thrive in any sort of managerial capacity and had great difficulty adapting

to changes in circumstance. What's more, he would constantly write letters to his mom about how he and his college buddies were, you know, getting up to all sorts of shenanigans and having this great time and that was not true. John was not going to parties, getting into trouble. He was hanging out his dorm room alone for the most part and quietly studying. On numerous occasions, this is so pathetic. Mommy would come to visit him

and she would stay with him in his dorm room for the entire weekend. Parents, please do not ever do this to your kids. Maybe have a few beers with them in their dorm room and then get the fuck out. Right? Let them have their own life. John was able to knock out his bachelor's and master's degree in just five years. And yeah, impressive. After graduation, he did get a job at an accounting firm in Detroit.

Then in November of 1950, LIS was recalled to active military service as the Korean War escalated. At Fort Eustis in Virginia, he would spend most of his time touring civil war battlefields and attending church events, like a Zion Lutheran church bowling night that took place on one lane, physically separated, cordoned off from the other sinful lanes in the building. We are non-believers, we're, you know, probably wearing skirts and going on unshaperone dates and tossing their devil balls into sinspins. I was here at this bowling night where John would meet his future wife, 27-year-old Helen Morris Taylor, another character.

Oh boy. Mama may have broken his healthy romance detector. She has quite the backstory. A lot of it sad. Abused throughout her childhood, Helen ran away, got married to a man named Martin Taylor as a teenager who went out to fight in World War II as soon as he was of legal age. Before he left, he got her pregnant and she had their daughter Brenda and the doctor who delivered Brenda accidentally splashed Helen in the eyes with a bunch of ether, which somehow left her noticeably wallied and blind in one eye for the rest of her life.

Being wallied, the opposite of being cross-eyed. Instead of both eyes pointed towards the nose, both eyes seemed to look in opposite directions, staring more towards one's ears. In this case, Helen's one good eye would look where it should, and her other blind eye would continually just kind of look off to the side. Helen and Martin would soon have another child who would die at six months old, then when she became pregnant again, she had a miscarriage and got syphilis. Martin seems to have brought it back from Korea, where he was clearly not faithful. Even better, since so many soldiers had the disease, Helen was denied treatment, which would have been a simple shot

of penicillin as the focus was on getting the men back in good health and heading out to fight again. And actually sources don't say if he brought it back from Korea or if he was still World War II. So it could have been World War II. By the time treatment was available, it was already too late, or at least she or her doctors thought it was too late. You can absolutely treat advanced syphilis with penicillin. You just have to take three rounds instead of one or so I have heard. But I guess doctors had not quite figured that out yet. By 1950, 26-year-old Helen blinded one eye. Organs are taking a beating from syphilis, and her brain is maybe already beginning to slowly rot away from syphilis. And then her husband Martin was killed at the start of 1951 in Korea by enemy fire as

he tried to cover his men leaving Helen a widow. Finally in 1951 at that church bowling night Helen will meet John List. John and Helen will get married December 1st 1951. It was not a happy marriage. About two months into the relationship Helen told John, or excuse me, Helen had told John that she had gotten pregnant, which was a lie. By the time List found out she had lied, he was already married. She had tricked him, probably gave him syphilis, but he stayed married because divorce was a sin, right? What a great start to married life. Meanwhile, List is assigned to the finance corps, where he would be able to

use his accounting skills. After completion of a second tour in 1952, Liske got a job back in Michigan working as an audit supervisor at a box company in Kalamazoo, a two-and-a-half-hour drive from Bay City, where his three children will be born. Elda's daughter, Patricia, born in 1955, Elda's son, John Frederick, born in 1956, and youngest son, Frederick, born in 1958. Despite his dad never having seemed to have given a shit about him, he gave his first son his dad's name and his younger son his dad's middle name for his first name. The guy had all kinds of issues, probably could

have used a counselor to talk about. Despite their terrible start by 1959, the family is doing pretty well. They're living quite an affluent life. List had risen to general supervisor of his company's accounting department, despite his earlier assessment in college he'd figured out how to thrive in a managerial capacity, but he was not thriving at home. Helen was becoming pretty unstable, which is what happens when you don't get syphilis treated and when also you maybe marry a fucking weirdo like John List. Helen was drinking a lot, taking extremely high doses of a tranquilizer known as Thalidomide. All that plus her syphilis meant her brain was disintegrating.

The syphilis bacteria if it enters your brain and spinal cord, which it had with Helen apparently, it will literally destroy brain tissue. Their neighbors will later remember that Helen started keeping the lights on all day and night. They'd see her do strange shit like vacuuming at three o'clock in the morning as though it was the middle of the afternoon. She was also highly materialistic, content to spend John's money buying flashy, status symbols, symbols that nobody would ever see, because nobody ever came over to visit her. And Helen, for her part, almost never left the house. Instead, she'd do stuff like call John up and verbally abuse him while he was at work, telling him to do things like, come home right now and change the kid's diapers.

And sometimes he would do that. John's coworkers would find out why he was leaving abruptly in the middle of his work day and the fact that he couldn't, you know, keep control of his lady. Uh, the way men in the 1960s were expected to do really caused him to lose a lot of his coworkers respect. The kid ostracized for being a mama's boy growing up, now ostracized for his, uh, wife, clearly wearing the pants in the family. At least his coworkers did not see what was happening to him at home. Helen ruthlessly would mock John, telling him that he was nothing compared to her first husband,

Martin, who had died a war hero. She even bullied him about his haircut and teased him about his subpar abilities compared to Martin as a lover. John was like a real-life Rodney Dangerfield, right? Just one of those routines, just can't get no respect. John's only refuge was an odd one, military campaign board games. According to some people who knew him, he would invite people over to play these obscure military campaign board games,

not explaining how involved the games truly were, and then well into the game, hours into the game, he would spring it on them that, oh yeah, then all these campaigns last, you know, eight hours or more. He was not great at making friends, and he would spring it on them that, oh yeah, these campaigns last, you know, eight hours or more. He was not great at making friends. And he would never really keep any friends. 1960, John's stepdaughter Brenda married and left the house pretty much solely to get

away from her unsable mom and emotional hostage stepdad. But since she got married only to get out, and since she'd never had a model for a healthy relationship, her marriage quickly failed, the first of three failed marriages, each divorced rapidly following the previous one. John saw all of this as super sinful and vowed he would never let his children descend into that kind of moral turpitude. He started drilling his children, right, with his religious beliefs, even scheduling their lives down to the minute in a desperate bid to keep

control, strict control over his family. Or at least over the kids, Helen bit a wild card. John was not going to control her. Soon the family would pack up, head to Rochester, New York. John had gotten a job at Xerox. He became director of accounting services, managing four managers and 200 plus employees. So moving on up, clearly talented when it came to accounting. However, he will continue to not command the respect of his employees. He was a horrible public speaker, erupting into red, rash-like hives. Whenever he

had to address a room to calm himself, he would rock back and forth like a little boy. As a higher up, he was now expected to attend various work parties and functions, and Helen would embarrass him at every turn at these functions. While other wives chatted about amicably, Helen completely wasted on booze and tranquilizers, would blatantly openly flirt with other men. Talk about how John was nothing compared to Marvin. Ah! And then after making a scene, after making a, you know, dinner, for example, awkward as fuck for everybody, she would berate people for acting shy and quiet, like they were the problem.

Helen, uh, oh, she does not sound like she was ever running for spouse of the year. What's more, the developing 1960s counterculture was making the very conservative John feel pretty paranoid about the state of American values. He was veering into territory that even other conservative people in his office found way too far to the right. He and Helen were quite the pair. Nobody wanted to hang out with either of them. Then soon, suffering from cerebral atrophy, a condition in which the brain literally shrinks. Helen becomes more unstable. Life in Rochester was rocky, and John starts looking for a new job. In 1965, he accepts to position as vice president

and comp-troller at a bank in Jersey City, New Jersey, right across the Hudson from Lower Manhattan. And the List family moves again. John wanted to move into a house priced reasonably between 20 and $30,000, you know, some five bedroom nice but modest home that could easily accommodate his family and fit their budget. Helen wanted more. She wanted to be a socialite. And remember, Helen is, you know, quite literally insane. This point, she insisted they move into an extremely expensive Victorian house.

She found that was listed for twice their budget at $57,000. A big mansion with 19 rooms, which included a ballroom, 10 marble fireplaces, a Tiffany skylight. It was located at 431 Hillside Avenue in Westfield, New Jersey, about 20 miles southwest of Jersey City. Making this home even less attractive for John. It was in terrible condition, which meant John would have to pour even more money into fixing it. Nevertheless, Helen is insistent. John does not have the spine to stand up to her. Also cannot afford this house. So what does he do? He calls mommy. He asked Alma if

he can borrow money to buy Helen Little Brain, her dream house. And Alma agrees on one condition. She can move into deal. Now John smothering overbearing mother and his abuse of train wreck of a wife will be living with him in the same house they cannot afford. Perfect. Soon there were a family of six, not a happy family. And letters to friends Alma would later, we'll say, not later, we'll say that her time in New Jersey was the worst time of her life.

She hated living in an expensive, dilapidated house with hardly any furniture. It cost so much to buy the house and make repairs that John could not afford to buy much when it came to decor. Everyone is miserable. John became so sour, so torturously pessimistic, that he was even asked to stop teaching Sunday school. After Lutheran Church, he had started attending because he was bumming the kids out. Mr. List, does Jesus love everybody? Even little me? Technically yes, Stuart.

But love? Love is not always comfort. Love can take many forms. Sometimes it can take the form of a wall-eyed, half-blind, brain-damaged wife with syphilis, who guilted you into getting married with her many lies. A wife who, yes, maybe loves you in her own way. But that love comes with telling co-workers at Christmas parties how your penis is much smaller than her first husband. Sometimes love comes in the form of your monster of a wife calling you a bald nerd at dinner

who would rather play his little boy war games instead of carnally satisfying her. Love can hurt Stuart a lot. Love can make you feel like killing your entire fucking family. Then John would have another reason to be depressed about the state of his life. He'd expected to be something of a salesman in his Jersey city job or was expected to be, but after a year, his supervisors let him go because he was not delivering. He was good with numbers, but terrible with people. He would soon find another job at the American Photographic Company, but there he made less than half of his previous salary.

John ashamed of his work situation, never tells his family that he'd been fired from the bank. This is not a good move. Before he took a new job at the American Photographic Company, he tells his family, that he'd been fired from the bank. This is, this is not a good move. Before he took a new job with the American photographic company, he's continued to act like he was going to work. You just get dressed, put on his work clothes, leave the house, same time he had before, take the same train, the same station. And then he would just sit there and read for like eight hours on days.

He didn't have a job interview and then just return home. Talk about what a great day at work he had. Excuse me, when he did get a job at the American photographic company job company excuse me things were a bit better But it was hard to make ends meet You know he wasn't getting paid enough and then the company relocated John shackled to his expensive mansion John who still hadn't told his family had been fired from the bank couldn't follow without facing the wrath of Helen and The disappointment of his mom and his kids So he returned to just pretending he was going to work every day as he watched

their balance on the bank accounts drop lower and lower and lower still. Meanwhile Helen, she doesn't know what's going on, she continues to buy expensive luxuries and complain about John right constantly to anybody who will listen. Little word about the list kids now. The two boys who never seem to bother John much but Patricia who went by Patty, she was a teenager now, and she was scaring the ever-loving heck out of John. Gosh dang. She had developed an interest in acting, joining the troupe at her school.

John, not pleased. He literally saw all actors as Satanists and had no problem with telling Patty so. There's a lot of crazy going on in this family. Patty refused to quit acting like her father demanded. He could say whatever he wanted. She wasn't going to listen. Remember John did not command the respect of basically anyone to rile her data. Even further, she started telling her friends that she was starting a witch

coven, even asked her drama teacher, Edwin Ileano, if he'd be a warlock in her fake oven. Well, all of this may have just been funny games for Patty. It was serious business for John. Made him very upset. When Patty came downstairs one morning wearing a thin 70 style cotton t-shirt with make love, not war printed on it. You know, par for the course for teens of the time.

John attacked her, pushed her up against the wall, tried to tear her shirt off. Creepy. Uh, and called her a filthy whore. Easy Johnny, way too much, way too much. You've been pushing your emotions down for too long. That was explosion. Uh, not long after this incident, Patty snuck out to go on a walk, smoke some cigarettes with a friend in the middle of the night, got arrested for underage

tobacco use. After the police picked her up, John had to go get her from the station, which he did in a full suit, freshly shaved at two o'clock in the morning. Then in May of 1971, when John List attended Patty's school play, Lil Abner, she appeared on stage in front of everyone in some kind of leotard outfit that he found very revealing of her developing female form. Now he truly worried that his daughter was indeed a filthy whore who was about to doom not only her soul to hell, but the souls of all his family, his sons as well.

John's freaking out. He's just got another job at state mutual life insurance, but it doesn't pay nearly enough to cover his bills. He's sinking further into debt despite having also borrowed tens of thousands of dollars from his mom. He made transfers she didn't know about from her account into his accounts. So really stole

and set a borrowed, and now he's lost control of his daughter. He feels like he's failing when it came to the only two things he was raised to feel like he was supposed to be in charge of, making good money for his family and keeping his family in good moral standing. What should he do? Declaring bankruptcy and going on welfare was an option, but he couldn't stand the thought of his wife, mother, and children being ashamed of him, and mama, sweet, sweet mama, would know baby boy had stolen from her. He thought about sneaking off and abandoning his family, but then his family would still

be poor, which in John's crazy-ass mind was akin to eternal damnation, especially because Helen, who would stop going to church a while back, would surely let the kids backslide into atheism. Was there no good way out of this living hell? Wait, wait, wait, wait. There was one way he reasoned. It just might work for everyone. What if? Hear me out. What if? He killed his mom, wife, and all his kids. John claimed he thought if he killed his family now, they'd probably still make it into heaven. But if he didn't kill him with the way things were going, they would certainly end up in hell. So following this logic, killing all of his entire family would be a kindness, right? He'd be helping them. He'd be a good guy. This is truly how John mentally arrived at his solution. The only solution to his problems, murder his family. Then he could

start over. He could continue to be a good, God-fearing man until the Lord called him up to heaven. I mean, what else could he do? Kill himself? That was the one way to take it to hell. Over the following weeks, John Liss became a student of true crime. He knew it would be difficult to get away with the murders, but if he could put some time, you know, to allow him to put some distance between himself and the house before the bodies were discovered, maybe he would be able to just fade into obscurity. With all this in mind, he began to put together a plan. And before I share the details of his plan, this feels like the best spot for today's mid-show sponsor break.

If you don't want to hear these ads, you can sign up to become a Space Lizard on Patreon for five bucks a month and get the entire catalog ad free and more. And I'm back! Time to unveil the evil plan that John was put together and find out if he went through with it and got away with it. First, for reasons no one really understands, John went to the police station, got a handgun permit, even though he already had two handguns.

Yes, he wanted to try and murder his family legally. I don't know. Then he won't even bother to pick up his permit that he didn't need in the first place. Seems he may have changed his mind about the killings when he didn't pick up the gun permit or at least was struggling with a decision. But then something happened during a Halloween party that put him right back on the path of my family has to die. He'd allowed Patty, his daughter, Witch, to host a Halloween party in the ballroom. She invited over her friends from Drama Club and list watched from the top of the staircase

as a bunch of costume teams chatted, listened to music, and basically did the normal stuff for high schoolers of the time. But then John saw a male student either drinking alcohol, smoking tobacco, or making out with the girl. Sources aren't clear and took the opportunity to confront the devil and remind him of the righteous patriarch. He was John first verbally confronted this kid then attempted to kick him emphasis on attempt Dude fucking missed swinging a miss

As wide left what he missed his plant foot slipped out from underneath him like something out of a cartoon He flew up into the air landed flat on back, whole party erupted into laughter. Sources don't say but I picture his wife Helen being wasted and laughing the loudest. It sounds pathetic John! My first husband in Marta, he would never make a fool of himself like this. He's a real man. He's a real man. I miss him.

God, he knew how to scratch mom with zits. Not like this is dork. Now John runs crying out of the room while his wife daughter son's mother all the high school kids just pointed him and laugh Also, I love how John and his dad old trick-or-treat Johnny Both completely humiliated themselves confronting children around Halloween Like cousin daughter fucking father like syphilis wife son. John was a chip off the old dipship block. Unclear how this night ended, but it probably was not good because soon afterwards, John decided to call a meeting with all of his kids.

And in this very unorthodox meeting, he literally told his kids in no uncertain terms he was gonna kill them and soon. He even asked them if they wanted to be buried or cremated. And all of his terrified children chose burial. The fuck? Can you imagine having a meeting like that with one of your parents? If you have had a meeting like that, I am sorry

you did not have a more stable childhood. Once each kid gave their preference, John simply left, locked himself in his office. The kids now started to think about, you know, how they were going to go get help, but who would believe them? John List seemed like the most mild-mannered, least confrontational man in the world. 16-year-old Patty attempted to confide in her drama teacher that her dad said he was going to kill the whole family, but Edwin wrote it off. I thought she was being pun not intended but hard to avoid. Dramatic. Also, John List was so fucking weird. I'm guessing his kids didn't really think he'd probably go through with it. List had originally planned to kill his family on all Saints Day, November 1st. Since the holiday celebrates the ascension of Saints to Heaven, Lis thought it would

be more appropriate, as he would later write in a letter, thinking that Heaven would be more accessible to the souls he planned to take if they ascended on that date. He is completely insane. Then for reasons unclear, he pushed the date of the murder off to November 9th. Maybe that date now felt more holy to him or maybe all the salvation rationalization is a bunch of bullshit. And you know, he just needed more time to plan. List knew that he would not be able to cover up the bodies and go on living a normal life or that he'd be able to dispose somehow of five corpses pretend like someone else had killed him, which meant he had to use everything

he could to give himself enough time to flee start a new life before the bodies were found. The way he figured it, he could hide the bodies in the house and make sure that nobody came around for a while, which wouldn't be hard since they never had guests. To this end, he cancelled their newspaper subscription, knowing that papers piling up in the front would be a good sign something was amiss. Also cancelled their milk subscription, with the last delivery scheduled for the 9th. On the night of the 8th, this sick fuck slept like a baby. Morning of November 9th, 1971, started like any other day.

Annoyingly so for John List, because he heard the thump of the paper getting delivered, even though he'd canceled it. He made a note to call again later that day. They went outside, grabbed the paper, and began reading. As it turned out, John found that the stories and ads featured in that day's paper made him feel that much better about his choice. There was a story about a law mandating prayer

in schools not being passed, an ad for the mansion bio Helter Skelter, featuring Charles Manson's Jack O'Lantern Devil grin and an ad that announced that the best selling book of the year was The Exorcist. The fucking devil is everywhere. He had to kill his whole family. It's what Jesus wants! At 8.30 the milkman came by to make his last delivery. Milk, butter and eggs. After that he decided it was time for the murders to begin. John did, not the milkman.

With the kids off to school, John knew that he could take his time with his first two victims, Helen and Alma. He'd start with Helen. I'm guessing. Maybe he was looking forward to her murder the most. In the kitchen Helen was just getting up to make her morning coffee entering the kitchen. Liz said nothing to his wife, so you know, par for the course like normal. He let her have one last sip of her coffee before he raised his.22 pistol, shot her in the jaw, which did not kill her. Did cause her to have blood

flowed her mouth as she spun wild eyed or maybe more wild eyed than normal towards her attacker as John then fired several more shots into her body. With so many shots, Alma upstairs, bound to have heard the commotion, and would soon be coming downstairs to find out what happened. Deciding to make sure that she did not see Helen's body and scream and make even more noise than he's already making, John sprints up to the third floor, where Alma has her own bedroom, living room, and kitchen like a mother-in-law suite, finds her, she asks what the noise was, John doesn't answer, instead he raises his hand up, silently shoots

his mom right above the left eye at point blank range, mom dies before she even hits the ground. John's original plan had been to drag all the bodies to the ballroom to keep them away from the windows where someone might be able to see them, but Alma List too heavy for that. So instead John wrapped her up in a carpet runner, dragged her to a third floor utility closet where he unceremoniously shoved in the entire bundle. Then he used paper towels, cycled newspapers to clean up the wide streak of blood running down the hall.

Next, John returns to Dear Helen, whom he did drag to the ballroom, leaving a 40-foot-long trail of blood behind. Then John laid out a trio of sleeping bags next to her for his kids' bodies. Helen's bathroom was enraged to cover her legs, a bath towel covering her face and torso. Then John used newspapers to clean up most of her blood. John walked to Helen's bedroom, used her sheets to wipe off his hands. Then something strange happened and he appeared to show some regret, rolling around on the bed, convulsing and groaning before he headed to the bathroom to throw up, where he'd leave a bloody handprint on the toilet.

Then he showered, cleaned himself up. This point, he was due for a 10 o'clock meeting with his new boss at the insurance company. So John calls, cancels, says his mother-in-law has fallen suddenly ill and the family is packing up to go see her in North Carolina. Big emergency. John then wrote letters to the kids' schools, making the same excuse, saying he didn't know how long they'd be gone. Then he went outside and randomly just raked up some leaves for a while. Fuck it, why not? At noon his plan hits another little snag. He'd been expecting his daughter Patty to

come home at five. He had planned to kill her last, but Patty now called saying she felt sick, wanted to come home early. So John headed to school, picked up Patty, drove her back home, once he parked, hurried inside to make sure he could get the jump on his 16-year-old daughter. This is fucking crazy evil shit he's doing. Patty enters the home to the laundry room. As soon as she closed the door, her dad, who was already hiding behind the door, raised his pistol, fired at her from close range, hits her in the back of the head, kills her instantly. Now it drags her body into the ballroom, lays her next to mom's remains.

Takes another shower. By 1 p.m. after finishing showering, he heads out for the post office, where he calmly mailed letters to his kids' schools, filed a form requesting a 30-day hold on mail delivery, and scheduled a special delivery to his house for 5 p.m. A letter containing a note and a key. Then John went to the bank, withdrew the last of his mother's money, a whole $200. When she had come to New Jersey, her bank balance sat at a healthy $50,000. He had been

bleeding or dry. Also cashed in some savings bonds worth $2,000, money he would use to start his new life. By 3 p.m., 13-year-old Fred List, the youngest son, showed up to his after-school job, heard that his sister had come home sick. So Fred called his dad, asked him for a ride home, presumably so he could help take care of his sick sister. Sweet kid. Again, John picks up his child, drives him home, rushes out of the car into the house to get a jump on him. Again, he shoots a child of his in the back of the fucking head. What a crazy thing, so a, what a crazy thing. Right. So cold-blooded. He now drags Frederick's body into the ballroom, lays it next to the bodies of Helen and Patty. Four family members down, one to go. 15 year old John Frederick, meanwhile, supposed to go to soccer practice, but the day was

unseasonably cold. So instead he also heads home early. All three kids ended up heading home early this day. Wonder if John had a good, sick laugh about all that. What are the odds? Are you kidding me? Of all days, today, the one day I decided to kill my whole family. My kids all decided to come home early.

Life is funny. John at least didn't have to go pick up his son. He waited for him at home. He watched as John Frederick parked his car, ambled up the driveway, held the same gun in his hands, prepared to for him at home. He watched that John Frederick parked his car, ambled up the driveway, held the same gun in his hands, prepared to shoot his final child. But immediately upon opening the door, John Frederick sees blood on the floor, on the wall, on his crazed dad, who had

not showered after killing Frederick. He manages to duck and avoid the first shot. But then list shoots him in the back and shoots him again, knocking John Frederick to the ground. John Frederick starts to crawl away, list grabs his second gun, starts firing both like he's some wild west outlaw. It took ten shots to kill John Frederick, who kept crawling across the floor in a pool of his own blood and his brothers.

Now it was done. Everyone was dead. List now drags John Frederick's body into the ballroom, where he rearranges the bodies, placing the three kids side by side, putting their mother Helen on top in a T formation. Also, you could say it was a cross-like formation, which would make sense. All right. His primary motivation, obviously, was to make sure that they, you know, got their salvation. Then he dropped to the ground and said a quick prayer, which he believed absolved him of all the terrible crimes he had just committed. God, I hope it's not the way it actually works. I hope it's real. You know, God's a little smarter and more just than that.

Short time later, the mailman arrived with a special delivery John set up earlier. John sets it aside for the time being. He calls his pastor Eugene Rewinkle. And the two of them have a friend little chat where John repeats his lie about his mother-in-law. He'll do the same with Eddie Liano, Patty's theater teacher. Then on stationery, he had ordered for a potential consulting business. He had never gotten off the ground. He composed a letter to his mother-in-law. He confesses to the murders of everyone but his mom in this letter, apologizes for them, while also explaining how

what he did was really a good thing. Then he writes another letter to Helen's sister, Gene, where he confesses again to the murders of his wife and children. Next, he writes a third confession letter to his mother's sister, Lydia. This one opens with, by now you've heard what has happened to Helen and the children. This letter was the first one that mentioned Alma in it, Liszt again gave his reasons that he'd quote, relieved her from this veil of tears, which was John losing his high paying job. He also wrote a letter to his boss, the state mutual life insurance, apologized for the way he was quitting.

Uh, no murder mentions in that one. Finally, he writes one last letter, the longest to his pastor, Jean, pleading his case with chilling intimacy. I'm very sorry to add this additional burden to your work. He began before elaborating as to the purpose of his letter. You're the only person that I know that while not condoning this, will at least partially understand why I felt I had to do this. I fucking doubt it.

I hope he did not understand at all. Oh, what a letter to get, by the way, over five pages, John Express regret that we had gotten to this point saying if we had only had one of these things, you know, job loss, Patty's theater habit to deal with the family might have been fine. But list said, given their many troubles, he had no choice. He had to murder all of them. The power of rationalization, especially strong in this shithead. John made it out to sound like he was merely the reluctant burdened executioner in a heavenly drama,

drama, right? No different from Abraham, saying that he shot his family members from behind because he didn't want any of them to know, even at the last second, that I had to do this to them. Except he didn't shoot all of them from behind. You know, he faced his eldest son when he fired the first shots. After it was all over, I said some prayers for them all from the hymn book, he wrote. That was the least I could do. He discussed final arrangements for his family, asking for them to be cremated and the funeral cost to be kept low, even though his children had requested to be buried when he threatened to kill them. Finally in a shockingly cold afterthought he added P.S.

Mother is in the hallway in the attic, third floor. She was too heavy to move. How much did he maybe hate mama? John then opened the letter he'd mailed to himself early that day which contained a key that fit his desk. He opened the desk drawer, put the letters inside, locked it up and put the note and key back together. The note saying that there were letters inside the

drawer that would be needed to be delivered, you know, when they were discovered. Not sure why he mailed that letter to himself. It makes fucking zero sense. He could have just held on to the key the whole time. John now made himself some dinner, went to bed. Dude wore himself out killing his entire family. He slept like a baby. A little before dawn with every light in the whole house on except the ballroom. Next morning he destroyed all the family photos he could find and then Fed Helen's fish. Right? Gotta give the fish a chance. Right? Fish hadn't been sinful. Last thing listed

before he left the house was to lower the thermostat as far as it went to keep the bodies in the ballroom cool and prevent the possibility of decomposition smells escaping outside. Before leaving town, he drove by the office of KMV associates where both John Frederick and Patty, sometimes worked after school, dropped off a letter explaining their absences. Finally he drove to JFK airport, parked his car off in the long term lot, abandoned in it, disappeared for over 17 years. Jumping back to 1971 wasn't until November 20th, 11 days after the murders, that the drama club started to worry about Patty. Neighbors became concerned too when the lights

in the house left on started to burn out one by one. Kids' schools starting to ask questions as well. The drama teacher Ed Ileano was the first to go to the police who told him there was nothing they could do. This was a family emergency, right? They left town. You can't go breaking people's houses just because you don't believe their story. Well on November 5th, Ed Ileano took matters into his own hands, drove to the house, searched the windows until he found one that was unlocked. After a brief search, he came upon the bloated, decomposing, maggot-infested bodies of the LIST family. He would later say that the horrific site was so shocking and overwhelming that it took him two full days to process what he had seen.

Which is an interesting way to explain why Ed did not tell anyone what he had seen for two days. Then when he decided to let somebody know, he did it in the weirdest way. He went to the LISTHOUSE again, made a bunch of noise breaking in, causing the neighbors to call the cops. When they arrived, it was to the booming sound of the stereo on, playing John's favorite classical music station at Full Blast. Why did the drama teacher do this? No one knows. So many weird people in the story behaving in weird ways. Four days later, John Liskar is found in the JFK parking lot, but there's no evidence

as to where John was. Police Chief John Knuckles Moran. There's a serious surplus of guys named John in this story. We're assigned a full squad of men to work on this case along with the FBI, who put flyers up in pharmacies all over the country. Why pharmacies? Well, because John List had such severe hemorrhoids that he used quote, an unusual amount of preparation age.

This is perfect. Helen's brain was shrinking. John's ass was mostly hemorrhoids. They were quite a pair. Also put up flyers in optometrist offices, since John wore glasses. Finally, the FBI tried putting up flyers in Lutheran churches, but not a single one would let them. Clearly, they were more worried about being embarrassed due to being associated with the family killer than they were interested in helping to find and catch a dangerous killer. Now, interesting is this. Investigators discover that John had a

secret PO box he rented that his family did not know about. And what was it for? Porn. Seriously. That fucker had an entire P.O. box dedicated to Porn Max. So typical. Lecturing his daughter about the drama club.

Well, he's sitting his hemorrhoid riddle ass down in the toilet beating off to God knows what. If I had to guess, the dominatrix stomped on dudes' balls while telling them they were worthless or something. It feels right for John. Worried about his family's salvation, my ass. He just wanted out. Never wanted to risk running into members of the family he abandoned.

Never wanted to worry about them somehow tracking him down, coming after his money or something. Despite finding the PO Box, the FBI still didn't have much to go on when it came to locating John. They also had a hard time putting together a good description of what he currently looked like thanks to List burning all of those family photos. Then less than a year after the murders, an unknown arsonist burned the List Westfield mansion to the ground, destroying any evidence that may have remained. Was it John?

Also where was John? He had made it to Colorado, where he bought a trailer outside of Denver for $1,500, where he assumed the alias of Robert P. Clark, meant by Bob. List Bob laid low for months reading historical novels in the Bible as he rebuilt his life, probably beaten off to a bunch of ball busting porn. As Bob Clark, he got a job as a night shift cook at a Holiday Inn. He was promoted to short order cook almost immediately, then hired as a sous chef at a Denver country club shortly after that. For some reason, seemed like Bob could handle the pressure of a bustling kitchen better than just about anybody. Uh, yeah, I bet.

Uh, way less stressful than killing your entire family in a single day and then setting out to hide from the FBI for the rest of your life. For unknown reasons, at some point he'll quit, get back into accounting, but his accounting business will largely be a failure. Kept afloat by his new lady friend Dolores Miller, whom he had met at, can you guess, another Lutheran social. Oh yeah, no, he's still very pious. Still very much a church man. 1995, 14 years after murdering his family, these two lovebirds get married. Dolores brought a bunch of money to the table and John brought a bunch of dark secrets and probably some syphilis.

Probably not. John will move in with Dolores and almost get caught when one of her neighbors, Juan DeFlanery, recognizes him. Juan did open up an issue of Weekly World News, saw an article entitled The Perfect Crime about John List and his infamous murders. The picture of John List sure looked a lot like Bob Clark, down to the scar on his neck, and the description of an overly religious accountant with chronic money issues One day when Bob wasn't around wanted to show Dolores the article, but Dolores just laughed rolled her eyes saying that her Bob Couldn't possibly be a murderer

John continues to get away with what he did Then in February of 1988 the couple moves to a house in the Brandermill neighborhood of Midlothian, Virginia just outside of Richmond where Lis still using the alias Bob Clark, resume work as an accountant at a small accounting firm. Meanwhile, police Captain Frank Moranca back in Westfield has not given up on finding John Liss. He gets in touch with the producers of a new TV show, America's Most Wanted. It had just debuted in February. They initially said that the story was too old to be featured on the program, but

the captain was persistent and eventually America's most wanted's producers agreed John List was an avid viewer of America's most wanted that motherfucker on May 21st 1989 John List turned on the TV to look at his own face Sculpted to look his age now staring back at him It was perfect depiction and he was worried and he should have been that night The show got over 200 calls most of which turned out to be bunk, but one of them was from Wanda Flannery. She gave him John's address, sued him, said that they should come

get him right now. Lesson two weeks later, June 1st, List is arrested and was Richmond, Virginia accounting firm. He'd been living free as a fugitive for 17 years, six months and 23 days. For the next few months, Lis would claim that he had no idea who crazy, evil John List was. He's Bob Clark. Come on. Boring nice guy. That couldn't possibly murder a family.

I've never even murdered one family. It was only after his extradition to New Jersey, when faced with his fingerprint match and evidence from the crime scene, Lis confessed to his true identity, February 16th, 1990. Lis lawyers now attempted to argue in court that he couldn't be tried for murder because he was clearly suffering from insanity. But as his letters and methodology proved, right, he had laid out his plan for months. He knew what he did was wrong.

He had taken so many steps not get caught. He was insane. He was not criminally insane. April 12, 1990, a jury finds John Liss guilty. At his sentencing hearing, this mama's boy weasel did not take responsibility for his actions. He said, I feel that because of my mental state of the time, I was unaccountable for what happened. I ask all affected by this for their forgiveness, understanding and prayer. A judge was not impressed, was not persuaded.

The judge said, John Emil Liss is without remorse and without honor. After 18 years, 5 months and 22 days, it is now time for the voices of Helen, Alma, Patricia, Frederick and John F. to rise from the grave. Fuck yeah, I love the without honor comment. John was given 5 consecutive life sentences, maximum penalty of the time. List later filed an appeal of his convictions on grounds that his judgment was impaired by PTSD due to his military service. He was fucking POW for a couple hours. He also argued that the letter he left behind in the crime scene essentially his confession was a confidential communication to his pastor, and therefore inadmissible as evidence.

A federal appeals court was like, shut the fuck up. They rejected both arguments. And did he forget that he wrote three other confession letters? Finally, John List died in prison after serving almost 19 years from syphilis in 2008 at the age of 82. Now he didn't die of syphilis. He died of embarrassment. In the prison cafeteria, when another inmate tripped him, he spilled food all over himself, fell down, then he got up, tried to kick the guy who tripped him, but he missed, slipped in the mess made by his food, fell back down to the ground, spraying both of his ankles. Everybody laughed and laughed and laughed at that dork and kept laughing until he was

literally dead from embarrassment or pneumonia. Or he died naturally from pneumonia. In the end, Lis spent as many years behind bars as he did on the run, so at least some justice was served. Is there anything to be learned from John Liz's story? There are several lessons. Number one, don't have kids with your cousin's kids. That's an important one.

Number two, don't make your kids sleep in the parlor. Number three, don't let your mom still hold your hand to cross the street when you're a teenager. Number four, don't let mommy sleep in your dorm room when you're in college. Number five, any one of these actions can easily lead to you years later killing your entire family and not totally getting away with it.

I think it was only four, then it was a summary, it wasn't really four and five. But you know what? Whatever it was, that's it. For this edition of Time Suck, Short Sucks. I hope you enjoyed this wild story. If you did, check out the rest of the Bad Magic catalog. Bigger episodes of Time Suck every Monday, noon Pacific time.

New episodes of the now long-running paranormal podcast, scared to death every Tuesday at midnight. Sometimes nightmare fuel episodes on Fridays. Thank you to Sophie Evans again for the initial research. Thank you to Logan Keith, recording, uploading today's episode. Please go to BadMagicproductions.com for all your bad magic needs, including merch and have yourself a great weekend where you don't kill your whole family. Add magic productions.