Too Scary; Didn't Watch - MAMA with Jessica Jean Jardine

Episode Date: November 18, 2020

Two feral girls, one hot dad, and the most unfortunate wig and styling choice in modern history - we're recapping the 2013 film Mama! This week we are joined by Jessica Jean Jardine (Kar Dishin' It) to talk fantasy horror, Mandela effect, and the never-ending one way vs. two way mirror debate. Follow the show: @TSDWpodcast on Twitter, TikTok, and Instagram. Check out our Patreon for bonus episodes and additional content! Rate Too Scary; Didn’t Watch 5 Stars on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and leave a review for Emily, Henley, and Sammy. Advertise on Too Scary; Didn't Watch via Gumball.fmSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Another week, and Henley, it was a good one. It was a good one. It was a good one, and you know, it's always a good time when we get to do our favorite thing, which is shout out our patrons. We love to do it. We love to do it. We love to see it. We love to say it.

And I'm going to shout out this new crew, apt to say crew because that is what you call the members on a vessel because these vessel heads, they've joined up. They are Lindsay Fickle, Melissa Andrade, A. Gilbreth, and Danielle Rubio. Welcome.

Welcome. Next up we have our newest members of Tony fucking fucking colette's inner circle welcome you have reached the absolute apex of your experience here with too scary to watch we got gonzalo garcia charlotte felicia courtney holly wenger h Hannah Harrelson, and Robert James Sherwood. Welcome to the pack, y'all. Welcome to the pack. And we've got to shout out another group of people who they've been here a minute.

They've been dipping their toe in some waters. And they've decided, you know what? I want to get in that inner circle that inner circle as we've mentioned is the apex of um the patreon experience and they're like yeah i want that and honestly we support it and we appreciate it and we're thrilled to have them uh these folks are caroline stewart becca lee melissa green dana bullinger sk and emily jacobs Stuart, Becca Lee, Melissa Green, Dana Bollinger, S.K., and Emily Jacobs. Wow. We love you guys.

We love you guys. Thank you so much. We appreciate you so much. Thank you for supporting us. Seriously, it means so much to us. And for anyone who hasn't checked out our Patreon, you can head on over there at patreon.com slash tsdwpodcast. hasn't checked out our Patreon, you can head on over there at patreon.com slash TSDW podcast. We have lots of fun little things that we'll send you if you sign up. And for those who are part of

Tony fucking Klutz inner circle, we are doing bonus episodes every month. Our most recent one was a watch along for the sixthth Sense honoring our dearest Tony. God, we love her. God, we love her. We really do. She was fucking great in that movie, too. So if you're interested, head on over. Check it out.

And enjoy the episode. Enjoy the episode. This is Emily, Henley, and Sammy. And you're listening to Too Scary, Didn't Watch. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Too Scary, Didn't Watch, the horror movie recap podcast for those too scared to watch for themselves. I'm Emily, and I'm too scared for scary movies. I'm Henley, and I'm also too scared for scary movies. And listeners, if you were waiting for Sammy,

you are going to be disappointed again and again. We're so sorry. Please don't exit out of the podcast. Please don't turn it off. Please don't turn it off. She'll be back. She'll be back eventually. We promise we miss her so much. We miss her just as much as you do. She'll be back. She'll be back eventually. We promise we miss her so much. We miss her just as much

as you do. More, I think. Probably because we love her so much. She's still working and she'll be back soon. It's just us this week for now. But you know what? Hen, it was a good week.

It was a good week. It was a good week. It was a good week. But was a good week. It was a good week. It was a good week. It was a good week, but I'm also trying to tamp down my emotions about it because we're not quite out of the woods yet. No, we're definitely not. And the thing is, it also in many ways was a bad week. It just that in a one big way that needed to happen, it was a good – I mean, Hen,

you're in New York. I'm in LA. Listeners, you should, you know this. And to see, I mean, it was everywhere. It wasn't just those cities, but like to feel the collective joy of an entire, like, not even just joy, but just like, oh, thank God, of an entire city was surreal. It was so cool. So I was on the street when they announced that Biden had won.

Because it was like midday for you. Yes. So I was out on the sidewalk, like at an intersection. It's pretty busy when they announced it. And people literally started screaming, like screaming. People were opening their windows, banging on pots and pans. The street corner where I was, I sent you guys some videos. It escalated so quickly. Within 15 minutes, there were hundreds of people on the street corner cheering. There were little kids

everywhere that were like with their signs. People had signs already. I were like, with their signs, like people had signs already. I was like, how did this happen? It was so quickly. It was so cathartic. And it was so surprising because I didn't expect that to necessarily be the reaction. But same. It was the reaction everywhere. I mean, I you guys it happened to you to you in LA right so it was yeah so it was like 8 30 in the morning our time and I was up like getting ready for work in my bathroom and I hadn't checked my every day up until then I wake up check did they call it no it was like okay uh but I didn't check that morning because I was like it was Saturday right I was probably annoyed that I was getting ready for work at 830 in the morning.

And I just started hearing cheers outside on my street and was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And then I didn't even get my phone. I just ran outside because I was like, that has to be what it is, right? Why would people be cheering otherwise? And people were like, yeah, out on their balconies, like opening their windows. There was one of my neighbors who I don't know who she is across the street was in a hot pink robe banging on a pot going, get your ass out. Get your ass out.

Get your ass out. And it was, like, so special. And I just, like, cried and laughed. And I will never forget that moment. I also just, like, wouldn't have expected, like, that we would all just all just like need that and also need to share it. We've also been just so isolated for so long. There was feeling of like getting to celebrate something with people even though there's like strangers. That was – God, it was unbelievable.

I was by myself and I was literally like dancing on the street with people. People would dance. It was like a party. I didn't know. And I was like, who am I? I'm not this person, but I moved to be dancing with strangers right now. Yeah. It was unbelievable.

So that was a good day. That was a good day. We all just needed a good day. So that was a good day. Badly. And there we know there is so much more work to be done. And we need to do that work and stay committed to that work. But damn, y'all, we needed a good day. We really did.

And we can give ourselves that. We needed a good fucking day. So that's cool. That's cool. reminder that if you're in Georgia, know anyone in Georgia, have family in Georgia, friends, whatever, there's going to be a Senate runoff. So everyone get involved. Everyone vote. Everyone get involved. My dad said he looked into the – my parents live in Florida and he told me he had looked into the residency requirements for Georgia to see if he could just like get an apartment for a short time in Georgia, which is insane um that like is voter fraud that republicans are trying to that yeah my dad was trying to commit voter fraud hey look trump is right and everything he's ever said is correct um jesus but anyway you can't you can't do that you need to be there for like a hundred and something days that makes sense so turns out actually it's kind of hard to commit voter fraud who knew who knew you know what else is hard watching scary movies in sammy's absence

thank god we have a really special guest this week we have a really special guest um before i introduce our special guest i am going to say what movie we're doing because we're really bad at saying what movie we're doing I feel like it's Mama the movie is Mama it came out in 2013 it is written and directed by Andy Muschietti

damn I hate names I'm so bad at names I know it stars Jessica Chastain Nikolai Koster waldo megan carpentier all these names are hard isabelle nelice daniel cash jane moffett and javier botet or maybe nailed it nailed it for sure i did but um i know this name of our very special guest um she you know her you love her again not as much as me it's jessica jordan i truly have been like hi guys but i was like i just watching this show that was like with zoom it truly is the feeling of like, I was like, the show is talking

to me. I'm in the TV. I'm in the TV now. I'm in it. I've just been like, they're so, look how cute they are. That is a funny story. And then it was like, oh my God, oh my God, I'm in the show. I'm in the show.

I'm here. I'm here. Hi, guys. We're so happy you're here we um our paranormal activity episode is one of my favorite episodes that we've ever done it's truly like the scariest movie i think we've ever done oh my god it's so i'm very honored it's it i mean i picked it because it is a true like totem like it changed it's like changed my whole which i talked about on that episode like it's the reason the door opened to watching but it remains i think uh yeah probably one of the scariest that and it was so scary to re-watch it's so spooky how are you i mean i'm

great i was just like enjoying hearing you guys talk about Saturday and thinking, I mean, it was, yeah, it was just like a really good day. And same thing, just got to like run out into the street. And, you know, it was like, I think a thing I was thinking, I think we all thought there might be at some point in the pandemic, like some moment we all got like to run out in the street again. And like, we all got the vaccine or something. But there's this slow realization of like, no, not how it's gonna work and it's obviously gone on

for so much longer so it felt like the closest possible right thing like that like just that like and they're obviously so intertwined but it was the same feeling of just like humans and everyone making eye contact and like still not being able to like hug, but still just everybody kind of like jumping up and down at each other. And like I live in Los Feliz and at the top of my street or one street over from Hillhurst, like one of the main streets and the 76 station there like became this like landmark. Mariah Carey even retweeted because there's video. Basically, there was a car parked at the gas station that had people dancing on it. Oh I saw this. I saw this. It's the lowest field in 76.

It's at the top of Hillhurst and it's like that comedian Demi and then Angela Trimber and like people we know were just like they literally danced there on the top of this car for hours. Hours and hours and hours and there was at one

point somebody was playing all i want for christmas is you perfect and mariah retweeted it and i was like that's my gas station and it was like yeah it was also very funny because we went on a walk later like to see if people were still out like once it got dark and it wasn't people had left and gone home and it was like after the speeches and stuff. And so everybody, you know, obviously wanted to see Biden and Harris speak. And it was so funny, though, that gas station literally looked like a college party. There were pizza boxes everywhere and sideways champagne bottles and confetti all over the ground. Like it was like, whoa, like at a gas station. It was so.

And the owner was like packing it all up and it was like we'd all just gone nuts i had champagne at like nine in the morning you had it delivered which i i bet i bet delivery sales that day were through the roof yeah and it was but it's great though too because it's like i always feel bad in moments like that for the people who have to deliver it but it was even like even the delivery guy was like enjoy it and i was like thanks man like everyone was just so happy and like oh my god our we had new neighbors that moved in across the way and like it's a husband and wife and they're very nice but like very shy and almost like trembly quiet and always like hello hi hello and like when we were leaving to go walk up to hillhurst they were coming back in and they were like hey hi there we were like okay all right

everybody's feeling it they were like it's great now you guys are gonna love it the neighborhood's alive we were like wow character transformation warmed up oh my god it was just a really joyful day it was amazing um so yeah I I think I'm still basking in that. Of course, like, same as you guys, like, falling into the, like, okay, okay, there's got to hang on a second. But I think it's nice to take one little victory. I think we need it. And I think it accomplishes nothing to deprive ourselves of that. No. And also, just Democrats aren't used to being winners.

We're just sort of, like, losers. We're big losers. We're big losers. It's part of being on the right side of history and like uh i i think it's a lot of effort to be a winner ever and so my challenge is to like it's okay to be a winner you don't have to be a bad winner or you don't have to be a shitty win man but it's okay and important sometimes to be like a winner who won and to be like yeah i'm on the winning team because it's the right team um and that i can feel i could feel so much on like social media like yeah let's it's okay to

be a winner for a second it's okay like that's not a bad thing uh as long and we'll just keep doing everything else yeah but anyways that's my thought i love it i'm so glad we all had the same experience i feel like i i definitely did and then I went on social media, like you said, and I went on like Twitter and I was like, damn it, Twitter. You're fucking up all my good feelings. I didn't look for the rest of the day because I was just like, no, I'm going to take the win. And I'm going to also like, you know, living in New York, it's like I live in a big, stinky, nasty city 99.9% of the time. I'm going to enjoy – like that is one of the few moments that I've lived – I've lived here for like 14 years in LA. And it's like – that is like the most I have ever loved living in the city.

Such a good feeling. Like that's a huge moment to feel like I live where I live because I'm surrounded by people who care about the things they care about and are excited and happy. And like that's worth it. Like it's not just about like a far away concept it's about like I live here for a reason because these are people who want to bring their kids out in the street and like celebrate and hang out of a car playing the trumpet playing god bless America it was just like validating on many levels because there are so many moments. I think if you live in especially like in New York or L.A. or that you're like, why? Especially in the pandemic.

You're like, why though? I know. Like this place. I see so many rats every day. I'm like one with the rats. They're so fat, you guys. They're huge. They're just fattening up for winter.

It's wild. I mean, bless them. I can't hold it against them they're just in new york you know they just have literal piles of garbage on every single street corner and rats just live in them like they're just in their garbage system like we built for them yeah we built a home for, we built a home for rats. We built a city for rats. We did that. Ratlantis. It's basically Ratlantis. That's right, everyone. It's cocktail hour, the best time of the week.

This week, we will be making a drink that's called Dirty Mother, which is a fun name for what other people know as the brandy separator drink. This one is really easy to make. Your ingredients are one and a half ounces brandy and three quarters of an ounce of coffee liqueur. To make it, you build the ingredients in an old-fashioned glass, add ice cubes, you stir well, and enjoy. That's it. Cheers. So, speaking of being really joyful and happy, I'm assuming that's exactly

what this movie is going to be like. It's so joyful. It's so joyful. It's full brim of joy. So I did watch it, sort of. I told Jess, I like, I had it on. I can't wait to hear it.

During the day while doing some other tasks. I did the Henley method, essentially. It was full screen. I will say that. Great. But also, it's kind of like a dark, like, literally, like, dark visually movie. It's a very dark, dark, like, palette. There were some things that i just

like couldn't see like some of the scares i was like oh oh okay because i just like missed it the glare was too much so uh it wasn't i didn't find it to be i think if i had watched it under the correct circumstances i would have been appropriately scared but not over the top scared yeah um and i'm very curious just and honestly okay so the main reason i watched it because I would have been appropriately scared, but not over the top scared. Yeah. And I'm very curious, Jess. And honestly, okay, so the main reason I watched it, because Jess, you did say, you're like, I could be the only one who watched it. But like, I'm not not going to look at Nicolai Castro Waldo if I have the opportunity. How bonkers is that?

So, I mean, I saw this in the theater when it came out in 2013. And that was not, I know Game of Thrones was on by then, but I didn't watch Game of Thrones. And so for anybody who doesn't know, he's now, like, the megastar. Jamie. Yeah, Jamie from Game of Thrones. And he not only – he plays twin brothers. You get double, baby. You get double. So there's double hunks.

And it's like – but I truly – I remember it being like a jessica chastain vehicle and like some no-name guy playing her you know her partner so it was so weird to go back and watch it and i watched it with betsy um and i because i think we saw it together when it first came out and it was like such a huge reveal of like oh my god that's the guy i did i did not know that i do i'm gonna go out on a limb listeners and say of all the movies we have ever done the all-time hottest dad hottest dad award i i'm look i was shocked at how like smoldering he is in this movie. He is. Ooh. That's exciting. Maybe the most, I have forgotten about him lately because I don't see him in things anymore.

But I think maybe one of the most beautiful human beings who's ever lived. I'm with you. And it's a very like, it's a deeply empathetic role. The man cares. Yeah. He's a good dad.

It's a lot. He's great. dad it's a lot he's great and it's so exciting to be like oh no no wonder you became a giant mega superstar because he's like great in this movie and I'll just tip it just slightly not every actor in this movie is great so not every lead is great

and not every lead looks great which I mean I can devote the whole Not every lead is great in this. Not every lead is great. And not every lead looks great. Which, I mean, I can devote the whole podcast to that. Oh, thank God. It's all I care about. So, Jess, why this movie? I'm curious. So, this movie I picked because I would say, so for my personal trajectory, a lot of this

hinges on our superstar friend, our dream horror fanatic uh Betsy Sedaro who I talked about when I did paranormal activity who very much opened the doors for me and sort of was has been my like sherpa and she sort of opened up this realm that I'm sure I talked about before that is very much my what I like in terms of horror which is more horror thriller and it's that like this that Guillermo del Toro who executive produced this that like Guillermo del Toro like mystical magical like spooky it's very Guillermo del Toro it feels that way a lot yeah and I was like like I would describe it as more even though that's not quite what this is but like old victorian house genre you know house on a hill yeah like it's just um almost and tends to be more like period pc like the orphanage is one that i would put in that category um just that like that kind of magical

kind of feel to it um and so this was one but they don't come out that often. It's like a rarefied genre. It's like the James Wan Conjuring, like those like kind of highbrow, like beautiful horror films. So there's just not that many of them. And so the ones that work and exist, I think, are great. So this was one that I remembered really, really loving when it came out. And so Betsy and I had rewatched it recently kind of to see if it held up and i thought it really did like a lot more it was like better than i remembered it being um and yeah i just think it's like and i also think that and i'm sure you guys spend probably a lot of time talking about this but like i think i'm also fascinated in like a cultural level at how much in in a kind of like sad way like motherhood and like loss of children

is like this constant theme in horror uh and it's so like obviously rooted in like our culture and like the way to explain like great horrible loss and like women who've historically like lost their minds over like tragic loss but the way that like moms and babies and all that become these sort of like recurring images in horror and we like it's just there's like a normalcy to it but there's just this like actual reality that it's based in that i think is like so heavy but amazing in this and so this is kind of one that i think like falls in that category where it's just like a lot of layers. That's so interesting, because it's kind of like doing both things, right? Like it's recognizing that being a mother is extremely difficult, and emotionally taxing. And if it, you know, goes badly can be extremely painful. But then it also i feel like kind of continues to like other mothers

you know like put them somewhere else like once you become a mother you're like a an entity in and of itself that the rest of us are like i don't know she's a mom this one i think is like um handled with like a really deft touch even though there are some flaws but um and some pieces that don't age well but i think and also just like it's always fun when the central monster or like bad guy is just very scary and overwhelming to look at and i think this is a good job very guillermo del toro um i don't really think there's much interesting trivia of note except i will say that this screenplay is written by annie muschietti and his sister barbara muschietti i don't want to take barbara out of the narrative um yeah so i i'm just i'm amending myself in that my earlier statement um i think

the big the biggest wildest trivia is the vibe of jessica chastain in this movie and i think you just gotta see it to know hen so I think it's time we watch this trailer. Let's watch the trailer! Victoria and Lily were found in deplorable conditions. Their parents gone. Alone in the wilderness for at least five years. Hey, Victoria.

How they survived is unexplainable. I'm your daddy's brother. Remember Uncle Luke? With a loving family environment, Victoria and Lily have a real How they survived is unexplainable. I'm your daddy's brother. Brother? Uncle Luke. With a loving family environment, Victoria and Lily have a real chance at a normal life. You sure about this? Nope. Hey girls.

Mama. I'm Annabelle. You can call me that. Or whatever you'd like. Mama. There's no way these girls are ready for this. And there is no way that I'm ready for this. How have they been affected? They talk to the walls.

And what do they say? Mama. It'll get better. I promise. Like that? like that i'd like you to tell me about mama what's wrong i don't want you to care how bad's gonna happen to me you can't do that What happened to me? You can't do that.

I think someone's coming to visit them. Victoria was under the bed. A ghost is an emotion bent out of shape, condemned to repeat itself time and time again. Where is she now? Is she here? In this house? Mama, stop it! You promised!

Who is Mama Victoria? Mama. Victoria. Hen, are you okay? Oh, my fucking God. Honestly, most of this reaction is Jessica Chastain's wig. I mean, there you go. The real star of the movie. The fact that anyone thought that was an okay choice is, I almost couldn't pay attention to anything else.

It's a huge strike. Like on a level that I'm sure that person like moved out of Hollywood. Like whoever. The wig, the full circle around the eye eyeliner. You didn't see, I don't think Henley in this trailer, her very weird full arm octopus tattoo. It is...

What did they think they were doing? Is she... I mean, we'll get into the film, but is she supposed to be an anti-mother? I don't... Yeah. She's a rock and roller. She's a bass player in a band. Oh my god, it's so funny, know. She's a rock and roller. She's a bass player in a band. Oh, my God. It's so funny, guys.

Jessica Chastain just isn't that person. She's a great actress, but she's so not that person. That is the biggest issue is that, like, honestly, she's bad. Yeah. It's a horrible performance. It gets better as it goes, but it's just, like, a colossal miscast. Yeah, it gets better as it goes because they put her in, colossal miscast yeah it gets better as it goes because they put her in like normal clothes and sort of go like anyway forget about all that forget about

that stuff before that was weird right like that's when it starts working more when it's like anyway and also she's just a regular lady just think of her as normal um it's truly like sketch it's like a sketch character like it is so jarring. And the rest of the movie is so beautiful, so beautifully acted, so gorgeously shot. And then there's just a lady in a different movie that's happening. You're like, where do you think you are right now? God, I hate kids. I want to rock.

I miss my band. They're like, what's happening? Was Jessica Chastain like that famous in 2013? Because I wonder if this is one of those situations where they're like, oh, Jessica Chastain, that's just like a name. And we should just cast the best name we can. I think she was the name of the movie because I think Nicolai Custer-Wall was not at all yet. I read that she was the first and only choice for this

role which once again is astounding and here's the thing she is a great actress she is also stunning and absolutely it is i'm gonna say criminal on all fronts criminal for sure it's it's this thank you i it's the strangest thing it is deeply strange you can't even call it an easter egg but it's my favorite thing to not point out about this movie and just let somebody enjoy like you're like wait wait what's happening wait what what's happening and you're supposed to be waiting for like mama and this terrifying creature to show up and all you are watching is like the craziest choice by like a hair makeup wardrobe you're like a whole movie where a lady looks crazy and out of sync with that's also that she just looks completely out of sync with the rest of them it's and you know what we're not gonna spend the entire podcast

talking about it but it is i mean i told you I would oh my gosh it's really something it is really something I used to love back to school shopping so much that I would tell my mom that I wanted to work at Staples when I grew up because I just loved getting all the things that I needed that I would use every day in class. I still to this day have nightmares about showing up in class without notebooks or number two pencils. Really scary stuff. But luckily I wake up and I realize I don't actually need notebooks or number two pencils anymore. But this fall there is something that I will be using every day and would be terrified to be caught without, and that's Raycon's best-selling everyday earbuds. I've been trying to go on walks every day, and so I need earbuds that I can rely on to listen to

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Okay, so the way this story kicks off is, and it is really, like, the whole palette is very, like, dark, and you can tell by, like, the colors and, like, what Emily was saying. There are many parts where you're, like, not even sure what is in frame, and it's, like, this wintry sort of it looked it said it was shot in toronto but it's this sort of wintry looking uh area and basically it's set in the 2008 financial crisis and so we learn that this stockbroker stockbroker jeffrey desange uh has killed his business partners his employees and his estranged wife whoa what the fuck and and that is nicolai costa wall so yeah which is at first you're like

wait what and so he takes his two daughters he has two young daughters a three-year-old named victoria and a one-year-old named lily and it's like after having gone on this like spree um and we don't really get like tons of details yeah we don't see it happen we're like hearing the news report as we see his daughter so it's like not for your money or any it's just like we know that it happened we know we're getting like the the narrative chunk that like this guy went on a spree and now he's grabbing his daughters and he's throwing them in to the car and driving and is like clearly very upset like you can i mean obviously he's like out of his mind and he's driving and it's a this part is truly very scary like he's like

driving really recklessly on the road um and he's got the two little girls in the back seat and he's obviously like upset and he ends up uh like a truck i forget exactly how the accident happens but he ends up like swerves yeah it's an icy road yeah yes and he So he drives off the road and crashes the car with the girls in it. And they all survive and they kind of stumble out. But they're in these very scary woods. And it's snowy cold. Snowy cold. The car's undriveable.

It's totally wrecked. They've gone over an embankment, basically. The car's undriveable. It's totally wrecked. They've gone over an embankment, basically. And as they are walking through, they find an abandoned cabin. Oh, God. Oh, here we go.

Here we fucking go. And it's horrifying. It's like a scary-ass, perfect cabin in the woods. And it's so great because there's no driveway. There's no- It's just like in the middle of a forest it's just this like cabin plunked down oh god and they go into this cabin and it's like abandoned looking but it's also very funny and because i know you thought it's like actually beautiful stuff inside you're like oh this is like yeah it's like a fireplace and like it's like not bad

like it was cute but it's totally abandoned it's terrifying it's like a fireplace and like it's like not bad like it was cute but it's totally abandoned it's terrifying it's like filled with leaves and debris and like long abandoned and oh and one of the girls who wore glasses she uh the older daughter she her glasses broke oh no so she can't really in the crash so she can't really see like what is happening and so he they're in the house there Oh, no. his gun and he goes up like he's going to and he puts it at the back of the older daughter's head like he's going to kill them and kill themselves like murder suicide but she can't see what's happening she doesn't even know how close he is because of her glasses being gone and then basically like right before and it's like it truly takes your breath because you're like it's so quick into the movie and you're like am i about to watch like a child get murdered like what is happening and then this like shadowy black figure

that you don't see like kind of swirls and snaps his neck oh wow and uh and the kids are like then next to the fire. And you see like a cherry get thrown at them. And so all you know is that they survived. That he didn't kill them. And that something killed him. And they're three years old and one year. So is she like walking yet? Or is it like an infant? It's like a baby.

Not really walking. She's like plopped in front of the fire wow and being like then yeah like held by her older sister and they're just like sitting in front of the fire in this empty cabin yeah they get a little cherry and then we do like the opening credits right yes yeah that sounds right Spooky. So it's like, yeah, so it's spooky. All we know is these little girls are alone, we think, in this cabin. Who knows? And then it's five years later.

And I can't, I should, I don't remember exactly what the next scene is. So the next scene is we see Nikolai again. He is the twin brother. His name is Luke. So we're in his apartment. He is cool as hell. He's like, it's like an artsy little apartment. He like wears glasses.

He's got longer hair than his brother. He's the cool twin. He's the cool brother. Hell yeah. He takes a phone call. Already cooler probably because he hasn't murdered tried to that's really what makes him cooler uh yeah no murders as far as we know um he takes a call from a guy named burnsy um and he's like any news and he's like we're gonna check we're gonna check this

perimeter zone uh one more time and he's like okay great thanks uh hangs up and his girlfriend who is the least normal looking woman on earth uh sort of like laughs at him and is like oh burns is gonna check the area again like it's been five years what like what's he gonna find you know how you laugh at your boyfriend who's uh obviously obsessed with finding his missing nieces yeah right so funny ha ha ha ha yeah and well she doesn't she doesn't care about things like that though right she's a cool she's in a band she's very cool she's cool cool cool and that's like truly like that is when you meet like and and truly like they're they never really make sense as a couple like that's what is so strange like they're so jarringly like not a fit like just the way that they even

look together yeah he has this almost like professorial startup guy vibe like the way they dressed him and then it's like wild rock and roller girlfriend and like that's my big beef with it is it's like her performance is also just so like yeah right yeah yeah it's like i don't know that there is a woman like that in the world like let alone in this movie i just don't think that's a person i it does not feel like a person who's ever lived unless she was like in witness protection and was like trying to be a different yeah the real story of this movie is that her character is actually a woman in witness protection wait that's actually so funny to try to describe someone's acting as being like they were acting like they were in witness protection like that's what it felt like it's like it truly would have made sense to me more than than it's like, sorry, I know this was sticking out the whole movie, but this was actually a different lady in this movie world.

Oh, my God. Jessica Chastain, I know you're listening. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. She is so wonderful. I think that's why I feel so confident shredding the performance is because she is so talented and everybody has a misstep. Imagine getting the role and thinking

it's a normal lady and then you see the wig and you're like, oh, okay I'm this woman. Maybe she just was trying to do the wig justice. She wasn't set up for success here. It wasn't fully her fault. She wasn't set up for success. She was not set up for success and she

was misdirected yeah i think on all fronts but it is just like you see her and you're like and i remember seeing in the theater and being like oh jessica chastain is like the lead and like her coming on screen and seeing the wig and being like oh okay here we go So she appears. By the way, her name is Annabelle. Annabelle. Annabelle and Luke. Lucas. But then we cut to Burnsy, right? Yes.

Who is the – wait, is Burnsy the doctor? No, Burnsy is like – Oh, it's the guy who is like searching the area. Yeah, the search party guy. So there's like, clearly these people for five years have been going out and searching all these different corners. And they, so we find the cabin. Ooh. Which I guess they'd not found before in any of their searches.

Because it's a magic, it's a magic cabin. It might be, I don't know. And the car is there too, right? They see the crashed car first. They see the car. Oh, finally. Okay. So they go into the cabin.

It's very spooky and dark. They're like sort of wandering around. It's daytime, but it's like dark in this cabin, obviously. And they're like wandering around. We see a little like figure. And we look up. wandering around we see a little like figure and we look up and one of the girls is like crouched like on top of a shelf like knees up to her shoulders like little spider monster and they're like covered in dirt and we see the other little girl and they're like full creatures

they're like they've been living in this cabin alone for five years and they're like five little creatures and they're like dirty and they like i think they like screech at them they're like like they're like yeah they don't want to see people um oh they're full little monsters and they it's great the way it's shot they're like truly like skittering around yeah you like think it's gonna be the like a monster and it is just like the the girls and they're like freaky do you and i remember like truly do you you're like doing the math and you're like oh my god like a five-year-old and you know like to actually just five-year-old and i guess an eight-year-old now right and like the big question mark is of course like how yeah how did they survive it has something to do with that cherry that was tossed to them it might have something to do with that cherry um and the next important bit of information is we we cut to like

they're being studied by a doctor but i it's not important to the plot but it is important to our plot which is first we see Jessica Chastain in band practice playing the bass loving it um and then uh Luke like comes in and is like they found them um so yeah so then we're watching the girls it's so I truly don't mean to make the podcast about all of this there's no way not to. It's truly like this thing, like even the way she talks to her band. I think she's smoking and stuff too. And it's like she is. It's literally like somebody had never met a musician before. Or a woman.

Or a woman. Yeah. Or a woman that the concept was being stitched together in their mind of like what if it's like a woman but she like rocks but she's like tough she's tough but when she talks to her bandmates oh look it's just like so it's bizarre it's such a bizarre choice like anyways yeah but so then we're observing the daughters we meet dr gerald dreyfus uh who is yeah we're kind of getting to look at them through like what's it called like a two-way mirror we have an ongoing argument about whether it's a two-way mirror or a one-way mirror i wanted

to know what you thought and you said two-way mirror and you know what jess what's the debate what's the debate i would say you're 100 correct so i personally feel like it's one way mirror it's a one-way mirror because the mirror only goes one way and i say every mirror only goes one way this is a mirror that works two ways okay here's my vote both are right you know what just we've done this before and the answer is both are right we've literally looked it up because they're right i would say the only thing is that i'm right more and emily's right more only because it's i know it and have heard it called a two-way mirror more and thought the same thing as you henley and been like that's kind of

a weird way to describe what it does but i think it is still technically it or is it called a one-way mirror also called a one-way mirror it is both both yeah so that's what i'm thinking i feel like in like law and order and like those shows i feel like they call it a one-way mirror i think they call i think no one ever made the choice we have no one made the fucking choice. Again, the whole podcast would be about this. We've already done a whole podcast about this. It's like a glitch in the fucking matrix where nobody chose. And now it's just like both are true. I don't know.

No, both. It's like that. What is what's that term? It's like it's it's not the butterfly effect. There's a Mandela effect. It's like the yeah, the Berenstain bears like that one where it's like you've you've have you heard this no what's the mandela effect there's like these things it's there's a couple examples that are

will truly make you feel crazy where it's like the example that's often given is like i know the bernstein bears like the bernstein bears are the book is the book series i grew up on that i can imagine the cover and if you go look at the cover of the book, it's B-E-R, I think it's B-E-R-A-N-S-T-A-I-N. It's like Berenstain Bears. And it's like enough of a spelling difference that it's like everybody, that's not the same word. It's like said wrong, but your whole childhood,

like I can imagine exactly how it looked my whole life on those kids' books. And it was not that word not that name but that's the name that's so weird there's a couple examples like that is it the mandela effect i think it is that like people will swear that that mandela died in prison but he did like there's like two two things that people will swear are fact about how mandela died and like oh man it's weird it's a false yeah false memory phenomenon yeah a false memory uh and there's a couple different examples and there's another one that's about like people swear there was a movie in the 90s called shazam starring sinbad and not real wait i totally feel like that's a thing is that not no it that movie

doesn't exist wait okay i'll just think because it's just this is that's the scenario is named the mandela effect by the self-described paranormal consultant. This connects to you guys. Fiona Broom, after she discovered that other people shared her false memory of the South African civil rights leader Nelson Mandela dying in prison in the 1980s. The shared false memory is really due to a so-called glitch in the matrix or is there some other explanation? So it is literally this idea of like how do all of us have like a shared misunderstanding, but the same shared misunderstanding? It's weird. So anyways, it's very, very weird.

So let's throw one and two way mirrors in there because I think it feels the same. It does. I think you're right. Okay. Back to mama. Back to mama. Okay. Back to mama.

Yes. Yes. So they're in this welfare clinic under the watch of gerald dr gerald dreyfus and we learned that they're referencing mama we don't know what that means yet but they're like very hostile basically like they're truly feral they're like very completely feral and you're kind of watching them through the one two or three wave mirror and they look like they're like little animals running around um and so then uh the uncle goes in and at first they're so nicolai nicolai right nicolai costa wall um

it's like a fun one to i know i just like saying even though i don't think i don't think i'm saying it but i love that but i love it i just like saying it and then thinking of his face um but he goes in so remember so now they're like seeing you know so it's this confusing moment for them because it's like their dad he looks like their dad so at first they're like they're they're they're aggressive they're not're scared of him. And he's like slowly trying to warm. And then he gives Victoria, the older daughter, glasses. And so she like can finally see. Now also remember, it's been five years.

She's had no glasses. Wow. And she sees him. And it's like a very emotional moment where she's like and like hugs him she also she's older and she was older when they doctor says like she has her vocabulary still

she's like gotten a lot of it back the younger doesn't have much at all because she was one we don't really know what the younger's deal is a little weirder and it's kind of my favorite true little weirdo of this movie. But it should be

a side note is like these children these children give like some of the most incredible performances. And the younger daughter. These kids are unbelievable. She says very little in the movie, like very little actual dialogue. She doesn't speak English, this actress. At least not at the time of the movie.

That's also why they gave her very little dialogue dialogue she doesn't speak english this actress at least not at the time in the movie so they also that's also why they gave her very little dialogue because she doesn't speak english that makes so much sense and is it's so cool uh because yeah she's tasked with tasked with this really strange little character of this like yeah she's she's truly this like wild little child that's so impressive it's cool oh my god it's amazing i just also like child acting i just can't i'd like how do they do it in a movie like this like how do they do it how how um so we learn that the the dr dreyfus is uh is going to like basically agrees to support uh lucas the uncle and annabelle uh they've asked for custody and he's going to support them having custody of the girls uh against the claim of custody from their maternal great aunt jean um and the ask is just that the doctor can like continue to monitor the girl's progress as they like uh acclimate um and and so we learn and it

kind of feels crazy you're like these kids are like clearly not ready to go into a normal home like i i and in re-watching it it's like i think we could have used a little more explanation why we're like sending them and they say it's been like 90 days but even three months that's like a third of the pandemic like excuse me i'm not ready to go in someone's home um and like yeah i think it's a very funny thing how like eager luke is to like i mean it's his family it was his brother's kids but it's also like buddy like you're about to take in two feral children and Jessica Chastain's character I mean the

wildest woman in the world is the only she's like this I don't like what like no it's like this very strange thing because you're like Jessica Chastain's character like at once and especially in rewatchwatching it it's why I wish it was like a more

connective performance because it is pretty crazy to imagine that you're dating a guy and then this happens and you are not married and you live together but you're like you know I think she's supposed to be a younger person

and you're dating you're i think she's supposed to be a younger person and you're dating you're not and then suddenly his like nieces his feral nieces come to live with you i'm like on the one hand i am like sympathetic like she definitely knew that they were out there but like that's pretty weird you know and that I wish, like, the performance is so tough because you're like, I get that being a lot. Like, if you guys were hanging out and one of you was like, oh, my boyfriend's little nieces are going to move in with us. You'd be like, whoa, and you guys aren't even married? And it's not just feral either. It's, like, also extremely suspicious and mysterious how the hell they survived out there exactly it's scary

survived like trauma before yeah these children shouldn't be living with these people they should not no um but they do but they bring them home they bring them home um and act as if it's very normal to do so and then i think we're just, like, settling in, right? Does anything? Yeah. Immediately, it's clearly, like, a little bit easier for the older daughter, Victoria, and, like, Lily is just, like, truly feral. She sleeps under the bed on the floor.

She, like, won't sleep in her bed. Yeah. And they have a room that they share together, the two sisters. And it's like this beautiful house um two-story house and the girls have this like shared room and they do a really nice job it's very guillermo where it's like even though it is sort of like a more you know modern house it's not like some spooky old mansion it's like lit in kind of like dark corners and weird ways and like you never really you never feel at ease in this house and like the layout of the house.

And it does just feel like like a strange space to begin with. It's like never warm, really, and inviting. But yeah, like they're trying to basically like figure out how to welcome the girls into the home. And we know that like Annabelle is like struggling with and even when the girls come into the house she's like you know call me annabelle and clearly is all is like put off by the idea of like stepping into some mom role um and that it's like not really her vibe because she wants to rock the girls are still sort of talking to mentioning mama a lot and like talking about mama and are kind of weird and at one point uh what's her name annabelle and luke

are like you know they're letting off some steam they go to start having sex and she oh thinks she sees someone outside their room and like freaks out and is like someone someone's here um and he starts poking around no nobody's here and she's like what am i i'm like crazy no there's like somebody in the house so he's like go stick check on the girls i'll go look downstairs and then i believe we get this sort of like dark spot on the wall, right? He's going to look. He sees a moth inside his house, a big, big moth. There's a lot of moths in this.

And it draws his attention to like, yeah, this weird dark spot in the middle of the wall. to like yeah this weird dark spot in the middle of the wall and it's basically like this sort of and you kind of see this a couple times it's it's it's very again very guillermo this sort of like it's almost hard i was feeling it's like kind of like a growing dark stain like a live looking thing um and it becomes this sort of motif as the movie goes on these sort of like dark like living kind of holes almost in the walls and uh and i believe mama like flies out he's like entranced by it and then yeah mama just like crawls her way out and you still it's like again you haven't really seen what this is we don't know what mama is exactly yet it's just like dark and wispy and spidery fingers and floaty like it's they do a

really nice job of holding off on the kind of like what is the actual shape of this thing but it he's upstairs and it throws him backwards and he like flies over the rail and ends up uh like unconscious like on the bottom of the the bottom floor so he's like been severely hurt like mama like flew him backwards and he ends up in the hospital oh no in a coma oh no oh my god she's all alone she's a single mom now jesus so now imagine you're catching up with your girlfriend and she's like yeah my boyfriend's feral nieces i've moved in also he's in a coma now it's me it's just me girls oh my god how's she gonna have time for her band now she already doesn't have time for her band she's back to wearing normal woman clothes like sweaters oh yeah she's transitioned she's transitioned that's a very funny point that emily makes is like they very clearly like uh and it's why again

like these kind of like not to make it like academic but it is sort of like they kind of like momify her from her like bad rock and roll thing and it's all about sort of like these costumes on women you know like yeah now she's not out there in the world trying to do that she's becoming a mom you know and it's like i hated her first vibe and outfit to begin with clearly but it's still just a funny choice to kind of try to like soften her she has to have time to shop so where's the new wardrobe coming from where are these sweaters from and i will say it's it's we begin like this sort of next chapter of the movie that's really about annabelle and the girls and mama um and i it's great i do miss lucas like i know i was like oh shoot is he out of the movie now because i am am bummed about that. I mean, it kind of is.

It kind of is. For all intents and purposes, it becomes really. And this is where you see Chastain, like, do a lot of heavy lifting, you know, because it really is, like, her responding and really dealing with the girls and the house and all of it by herself. But, yeah, we kind of, unfortunately, lose unfortunately lose like the hunk factor for a minute. And I feel like too, it's important to know, even though like nothing really happens big time until that scare with him,

like there's a lot of weirdness of like the girls looking off at things that we don't really see. There's like weird whispery set. Like it feels very ominous. We're very aware that like something is up, even though nothing big like that has happened yet like the girls are still being really weird like that's important to note

okay noted so the doctor meanwhile has been like having sessions with victoria the older one she's really the only one who's like verbal um and so he's having sessions where he hypnotizes her and has been asking her, like, who is Mama? Are you Mama? Was Mama with? Like, just trying to get information on, like, what Mama is. And I don't know where in your notes this happens, Jess, but we get she tells him a story of, like, who Mama is.

Yeah, we get, like, in hypnosis, we kind of get this this like base understanding of like mama is taking care of them you know that like loves them and like we but it still is this sort of like we definitely don't quite understand what it is we just have sort of like mama's jealousy is sort of like framed up basically um and then i think we get to this like nightmare that jessica chastain finally has in the in the dream we see mama's past where this woman is like in it's like all kind of like scattery old timey looking and she's been like a woman's like in an insane asylum and it's kind of shot like pov style like we're seeing it like a woman's like in an insane asylum. And it's kind of shot like POV style. Like we're seeing it through the woman's eyes.

And she's having like a baby yanked away from her. And by these like nuns, these like scary nuns. It's all like scary old asylum-y. But we're seeing like a woman in these like skinny weird little arms. Like have like the baby getting yanked away. And then we see that same, like, POV and she's, like, escaping the asylum and stabs the nuns, right? And she, like, stabs the nuns and grabs the baby back and flees, like, goes running.

And you're seeing, like, all of this like foot like again. It's so jarring because it's like and you're like watching this woman like running we assume. And she's being chased by like men like a group of men like people are chasing her and chasing her. And then she arrives at this cliff with this like outcropping and the people are getting closer and getting closer and she's holding the baby and she jumps oh like off the cliff and she hits a branch like on the way down right and that's where the like visual stops like that's how she that's where it ends essentially or like yeah we just stop seeing that oh spooky so they're so this mama creature is not their actual mama no which i also at the beginning thought it was like oh it's their mama no right

different mama no different and victoria we've learned knows this story too she has at some point told to dr dreyfus Mama was in a hospital for sad people and they took her baby and Mama took the baby back and drowned in the river. And he was like, how would, what? What story is that? What?

So yeah. So now I feel like at this point we've gotten each the dream and Victoria's narrative so we're like, okay, so that's Mama we now we've seen that this has to be mama yes and so now uh so so at this point basically it's and it's sort of unclear if like mama sort of like incepted the dream into uh annabelle or like how she got the dream but like she she saw all of this too um and then at that point i think she calls dr dreyfus right and and and tells him about her dream and and asks him to go investigate um and try to like gather up some more information um and so he goes on his own little

like fact finding and it seems like he's, like, keeping stuff from us. We don't know that we really trust him. His, like, need to keep observing the kids and, like, he does this, like, fact-finding about Mama. But meanwhile is telling Jessica Chastain, like, don't worry about, like, she probably has, I think she has, like, multiple personality disorder. she has like multiple personality disorder like he's like doctoring or like being very like doctoring like oh it's fine I'm on it but like is doing research about who this woman could be right you definitely get this feeling that the doctor is not like certainly not looking out for Jessica Chastain and Luke's Lucas's like best interest or the girls you know that like I think it is supposed to be kind of this idea of like oh my god what his research he's like just so fascinated by these girls but doesn't yeah

not caring for them not caring for them and not really giving like the full picture to um i just keep interchanging we do it every episode we do every episode jessica chastain jessica chastain the woman in witness protection protected um and so he goes i think to like uh he basically ends up finding in like it's not a library like i don't know records office so like county records where there's like a lady with a long gray beard who loves a wonderful the records a wonderful cameo by like what like a true dream character actress one of these like yes i run the town records and i know a lot and she's spooky i want to go to town records and do research so badly it's beautifully done but yeah we we like we learn uh there's a box there right and like uh yeah i don't think we've gotten the box yet but she does say oh she's like there no

there haven't been any um because i guess his first thought is that that this is a this woman this what is alive and escaped to the cabin with the girls and that's who took care of them she's like their only right asylum that was here was in 1887 or something and there is a woman with the exact same story that they have told from that asylum at that time and it's like it's like right nearby where that cabin is um so it's like oh spooky spooky yeah so we learned that this is like a real woman uh who lived and that i think we're like piecing together like who is mama you know this is like a real lady yeah and we get a lot of moments especially when now that jessica chastain is like alone with the girls like um there's one moment i don't know exactly when it happens, but we see like down the hall. We see Jessica Chastain is like holding a hamper full of laundry and we see through the cracked door in the girl's bedroom.

Lily, the younger one, is like playing like tug of war with a blanket and is like laughing. We can't see who's on the other side. We assume it's their sister and she's like playing tug-of-war and then we see down at the end of the hall the sister behind Jessica Chastain. It's a great edit. It's a really like well

done edit. It's so great. Oh my god, who's in there? And like Jessica Chastain goes to like go in that bedroom and Victoria stops her and is like, you need to go look at something outside. She doesn't. We're getting the vibe that Victoria has a different feeling about Mama than Lily does and also doesn't want Jessica Chastain finding out about Mama, getting near Mama. She's trying to keep them separate.

Yeah. mama she's like trying to keep them separate yeah there's like a part where jessica chastain like is about to like or go like the closet seems to be in the girls room where maybe mama is or hides uh and there's yeah another scene where she's like going to open it and um victoria is like no you know like you know kind of pushes back on it and like doesn't want her to. So you're you're also seeing like Jessica as like Jessica Chastain is like momming more that there's like she's softening and like there's like a warmth more to her and the girls. And like clearly she's like bonding with them a little bit more. And you can feel like Victoria like worrying. Yeah.

As like as that's happening mama's getting jealous mama doesn't like this yeah so we're getting the idea victoria's trying to keep her away keep jessica justine uh the actress away from mama um and she at one point is in the bathroom crying and uh and i'll say Annabelle comes in and is like, you know, is everything okay? And she goes, I don't want you to get hurt. And she says, no, I'm not going to get hurt. I'm totally fine. And she goes, she gets jealous.

And Jessica Chastain goes to try to, like, hug her or put an arm around her or, like, help her. Be motherly, essentially. And Victoria is like, no, you can't. You can't. And, like, doesn't let her mother her. So we're getting a pretty clear indication that Mama is – and, like, and then she, like, looks to the door, which is ajar, and it's just, like, very dark and shadowy. We don't see anything there. But Victoria clearly sees something there.

So, yeah yeah mama is watching and mama does not want them to have another mama see it's complicated right it's complicated like a stepmom or something you know like cool new rocker stepmom where was she when we were all in the cabin there you go and she's a lot younger than a woman from the 1800s so um okay so basically dr dreyfus now like believes that you know um that mama is real and he obtains custody of uh the of like in this box he ends up getting like what is actually like the corpse of the the baby like the skeleton it's like in the county records office and what it's in the county records and they explain it away the woman's like i i do you believe in ghosts and he says no she's like well i think you know human remains don't belong in like a

government building um but i guess it's what that's where like any unclaimed corpses go yeah it's it's so it's like we're basically meant to understand that like what you know when they hit the branch when she jumped like the baby was snagged on the branch and hung there and stayed. And so when, you know, when Mama fell, like, this is the baby that died. And it is sort of, like, creating this narrative of, like, oh, she's, like, searching for the baby. And so here is, like, what, you know, what she's searching for. Like, the ghost is searching the woods for years and looking for her child. And then, you know.

Found these other kids. Found these other kids as substitutes. Okay. Going back to my notes. Sorry. And so he, I can't remember how Dr. Dreyfus, connects up with the cabin and how he gets to the cabin. Forgive my bad note-taking. Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily all that clear, but I think he knows where the cabin is because it's probably public, like, where the girls were found.

So he decides to go search the cabin on his own. And would you believe it? The man chooses to do it after dark. At night! Emily, this was the big, this was the other big thing. Sir, you know there's a ghost. First of all, an angry ghost. It's the middle of the cold woods.

You went alone, you told no one. You told no one you've gone to a cabin that again, we don't understand how you could even get to. There's no driveway. There's no- Presumably only by crashing off of the road like a mile above and he goes to the cabin at night i mean look for effect and thrills and chills do i love it absolutely but in the idea it's a bit of a plot hole why a yeah like a well regarded i was like okay it took him a long time to get to the cabin but

like you leave at the crack of dawn my friend like you go early so it's just like a flashlight yeah not even like a lantern excuse me a single flashlight it's like a little wussy flashlight and we are back at this terrifying cabin. And I should clarify. I mean, like when I said it looks like nice inside, it's not nice inside. It is a hellhole. It's terrifying. It's just that you can tell it's the remains. It's the vintage shopper, the flipper.

You can tell that the bones are good. But that it is a terrifying cabin. And so, yeah. So then he's poking around this scary ass cabin. And is this where we see the pile of cherry seeds? Yes. Did we skip that? He sees like a pile of cherry pits, which is, I guess, like all the girls were eating.

They lived off of cherries for five years. No, no. Yes, so it's this like connective thread where we had seen at the beginning this cherry getting like lobbed from the darkness towards the little girls after when they like first arrived. And now we see these like, I cannot describe to you how big these piles are. Like mountains, I mean, five years of human sustenance which is also like hey the woods are right outside toss that pit outside also could you survive by just eating cherries i

i wondered the same i just remember it as being like a shocking reveal where you're like she fed them cherry where the hell did she get these freaking cherries from I guess it's the woods okay it's just the woods okay okay but he starts to see or like feel that mama is there like he becomes aware that mama is in the cabin with him and he

starts talking to her and is like I know I know what you want like I have what you need what you're like seeking um referencing the baby and then she murders him okay yeah i was like okay that makes sense then she just sort of like jumps at oh oh no we get this cool thing which we've several movies we've done lately have done this where he also so he has a stupid flashlight and a camera so he's taking pictures to see where she is and so the only light we get is flash flash so you're like just i'm just like

where's when's mama gonna pop out and we get like bits and like we get a picture and you see like a wisp and another picture and a little bit more and then flash and she's like in his face just like devours him and he is dead he got mama got mama and we got a decent glimpse of mama at this point i feel yeah this is i think like the most we really see mama um and yeah and it and it's very she's a very scary lady she's scary lady she's like a kind of dark very like uh kind of and it's amazing to me the idea of like the kind of the actor like and i think it makes a big difference in this movie and for all these movies that it's not like i mean clearly there's a lot of cgi and all of that but that it's clearly also like a spindly crazy like actor yeah really like whoa their shoulders and like being the this like physical embodiment and

for me at least as a viewer that makes such a difference that it were not just I'm not that interested and excited by like monster CGI ever and you can feel this like practical effect like rooted in in all of these like kinds of movies I feel like so yeah when you see mama even though it's obviously like not a human human it feels a lot more like human reminiscent you know um but yeah dry fist dry fist is so dark so that we can feel like the the heat is rising you know like we're reaching like a boil like mama is like fired up right and so then we get to the the aunt yes who comes who comes to visit and now and they they i will say for myself and maybe i mean feel differently they don't really super explain or at least i missed like the family dynamic or it's a piece that kind of gets cut out but this aunt clearly wanted custody we learned we learned earlier over um lucas and and the girlfriend and so there she's very suspect she's very like hoity-toity and has like a very dismissive air um and so she shows up at the house

to see the girls i believe okay so yeah we've missed one thing, which is... Okay. So, as, like, yeah, I think the doctor has been killed by Mama. We've had more interactions with Mama, like, lurking in the house. We get to the hospital where Lucas is still in a coma. Right. And in his coma, he, like, opens his eyes and looks over and he sees it's like he's like inside a dream but he's like him in his hospital bed and like looking and seeing a scene

and it is like this tunnel on this like forest road and he looks and sees his brother who's like hunched over and like gross and like you know looks like that's kind of like yeah like a hanging arm and is like you know corpsey um and he's doing a really good job i wish yeah i i'm bad this is like not a visual medium obviously um but i'm doing it really good uh and he like says to lucas he's like go to the cabin save my daughters and then uh we see in the hospital on the like monitor being typed mama mama mama mama and then he Lucas, starts having a seizure. And, like, all the doctors come in and are like, he's seizing. And, like, tried. And then he wakes up from his coma.

And so, yeah. So then Jean comes to visit the girls. And Jessica Chastain had forgotten that it was the day that she was coming. And so, you know, the house is messy. She's obviously single. Momming. She's doing her best, by the way. Her boyfriend was in a coma.

She saw him fall down the fucking stairs and then go into a coma, and she has feral children in her house. I'm so sorry that the house isn't pulled together. I'm sorry that's too clean for Eugene. Oh, my God. Sorry, Gene. house i'm so sorry that the house isn't pulled together for eugene oh my god sorry jean's like looking for trouble and the girls are like dirty and i'm bruised but like how i yeah they they look like shit because they look like shit because they're crazy and they're feral and they like also one of them the younger one eats paper yeah she's like doesn't eat real food she doesn't speak almost ever um i feel like a couple times we've maybe seen she'll like wake

up in the middle of the night and wake up victoria and go like victoria mama come i'm like that's like all she ever says we kind of learn that like the rhythm is is that like at night because again so victoria like sleeps in her bed and then um uh what's the younger oh my god i'm blanking on her name lily lily like literally sleeps underneath the bed under her like she's just see her putting victoria's hair in her mouth to like try to eat her hair she's a little weird she has not quite adapted to life in a home as a human. And by the way, I feel like we might have skipped this at the beginning.

I think she doesn't do this anymore, but at the beginning when they first, like Victoria walks, has always walked upright, but Lily walked on all fours. Oh, whoa. We did miss that.

Yes. She like is a full little feral. And so at the beginning, she's like skittering around on all four and there yeah a couple moments a couple moments where uh like jump scares of like us turning around and seeing her just like like like crawling in like a corner like there's a lot of scares where it's like is it mama or is it lily um and yes and clearly like lily is down with mama's vibe the way she looks those far away looks where it's like something victoria always looks kind of scared lily is always like delighted

like she's like seeing her mom yes it's and that's why it is like this really amazing performance of like a daughter looking at her mom but you know that it's this like lurking shadow monster in the corner of the room but she's like mama and it's like it's true and they get cut you kind of feel like the vibe is like that at night mama visits them in their room and so yeah we have these shots where it is like wake up wake up mama mama and like that that's sort of the rhythm that's going on in the house while Annabelle sleeps and tries to single mom. Yeah. Not knowing there's a whole other mom in the house that could have been helping. My God, lend a hand.

But yeah, Jean sees the bruises and is like, yes, well, like gets starts to think, oh, are these kids being mistreated? And starts looking for ways to get custody back of these? Can we see her like make a phone call to child services after? And they're like, well, you need proof. And so that's like where we leave off with Jean is she's going to try to get proof that they're being abused so she can get custody back of these ferals. Everyone wants these feral children. Everyone wants these feral children. custody back of these ferals everyone wants everyone wants his children i mean i get it they're delightful but it's uh it's it's a lot um so then yeah we've had lucas had his dream

with his dead brother visiting him asking him to save the children and then i think we get annabelle visiting dr dreyfus's office does Does that sound right? Has that happened? I'm wondering when does it happen that maybe it doesn't matter the order that we say these things in, but she's sort of getting into a better rhythm with the girls. Is feeling more confident.

And at one point she makes some progress with lily yeah well she's like holding her so one lily in the middle of the night goes climbs out the second story window and goes and sleeps in the yard and annabelle wakes up and in the morning and is like where the fuck is lily and goes outside and gets her and brings her in. And she's cold and wet from sleeping outside. Yes. So she tries to grab hold of Lily.

And Lily is like, yeah, screaming and doesn't want to be anywhere near her. And so she finally holds on to her and blows hot air on her hands to warm her up. And Lily feels good and lily like softens to her and they have this little like connection moment it's very very sweet um and then i think it's the next day they're like victoria's like cooking dinner she's like burns a whole pot of spaghetti and she's downstairs making you see her making dinner or i think it's I think they say breakfast Jessica's like let's get some breakfast

and then sends the feral eight year old down to figure it out and she like burns a pot of spaghetti and she's like in the again she's a rock and roller not a mother so Annabelle is in the girls room and and she's

down downstairs making breakfast and um annabelle like turns around and sees a little crouched figure in the corner and like jumps and it's like oh she's lily you scared the crap out of me uh and then keeps putting stuff away and victoria goes breakfast is ready from downstairs and she's like okay one minute she says come on lily's hungry and we cut and we see that lily is downstairs next to victoria so that who was in the corner that was mama and we see mama like slink into the closet and that's when annabelle's like oh fuck all right we're going to see the fucking doctor like what is up

so she takes the girls and goes to the doctor's office and they're like waiting in the lobby and we see his secretary on the phone like whispering being like i mean yes i tried to talk to the lieutenants i haven't seen him for two weeks i'm worried something happened to him it's like yeah like two weeks two weeks and get a team can hear it and the woman hangs up the secretary hangs the phone just starts crying and runs to the bathroom like runs away and so jessica jesse is like okay breaks into his office grabs the box of files about the kids and steals his computer, takes the girls and goes back home. Yes. She gets a very solid chunk of plot from this secretary. She steals everything related to the case.

She brings it home. And then we get her like pouring over everything right she like watch it they like recorded all of the hypnosis things so she's like watching those gathering realizing that like oh no dr dreyfus did like did research on mama found out she is a fucking ghost and like so now she's got the whole picture because the whole time she's been sort of feeling like she's crazy for thinking there really is a ghost here or something sinister um and so she's like oh no this is like this is very real um i think just gets overwhelmed and freaked out and starts crying

yeah and the girls come down to like say good night um victoria comes up to her and hugs her and then says i love you and as and you get this like chill because you're like it's so sweet and as it's as victoria's hugging her lily is like standing in the doorway and they make eye contact and lily just looks at her and shakes her head like that was a bad idea to show her affection uh so we never mentioned this but uh lucas uh nicolai is a he's an artist um he draws he's an artist so he is in his hospital bed drawing a picture and he's drawing the tunnel that he saw in that like vision yes and has a realization of like wait i've seen this somewhere

i guess he has the files on hand uh but like so that's why i'm like all jumbled i'm like how did this yeah together he'll find somehow a picture from when they were excavating the area where they found the cabin. And it's a picture of that exact same tunnel. So he goes like, oh, fuck. I think that was real. I think I need to go there and see what's up. So he leaves the hospital again, does not tell Annabelle where he's going and it is late in the day there's no yeah there's like this is like a world where people just like are very loosely in touch

so he we see him make a phone call to rent a car again not to tell his partner and, like, maybe use their car. He rents a car and, like, leaves the hospital to go there. So when we cut back to the house after Nikolai goes to the tunnel. And we see, like, Annabelle fully sees Mama for the first time. Yeah. And she's, floating standing in the like entryway and is like all her limbs like point in the wrong directions and she's like she can't it's it's a great like kind of huge big reveal of like this is this like mother mother showdown yes of like mama is like rearing her head and like she's this like big yeah like emily

said like she's just all like spidery fingers and pointy elbows and like it's it's i think it's like on the top tier of like big uh reveal you know like you are so and her face is like uh there's this is not to sound highbrow but there's this artist modigliani that's like famous for these kind of like narrow twisty faces and it's just like exactly that like these eyes at different angles and it's like it's just a fucking horrifying image yeah and so she essentially like goes at annabelle uh knocks her down it's like It looks like she's trying to suck her blood. The way she gets at it, it's like she's going to try to eat her.

Yes, that's exactly what it looks like. And the girl starts screaming and Victoria, the older one in particular, says Mama, no, you promised! So she made some deal with Mama to not attack Annabelle. But Mama don't care. Mama don't care.

And we see Mama just slips down through the ground, leaves Annabelle unconscious, and then slips through the floor as if she's slipping through a drain. Yeah, and I think that's helpful for me in that moment to realize how she's moving moving around the house you know and like these like wall things and yeah through the vents and that she is just sort of like this almost but there's this like viscous sort of quality you know that's like which I like as opposed to just like floaty ghost which is fine but it is just like very tangible yeah like kind of substance so gene sneaks into the

house and see gene is looking for evidence this like it just looks like hair moving along the ground it's mama's hair like as if she's still in the floor like moving towards her and then mama like comes up out of the ground and just like like, goes, and just, like, attacks Jean. So Jean got Mama'd. Jean got Mama'd. And you know what? I don't think we're mad about it. No, no.

We're okay. We're okay with that one. We're fine. Jean was a busybody. You can get Mama'd. So Victoria is trying to, like, revive Annabelle. It's not working. it's not working um she goes downstairs into the kitchen where we see from behind aunt jean standing in the kitchen but she's like weird and fidgeting and like getting like

locking her limbs into place and victoria says aunt jean and aunt jean turns around and she's got Mama's face. Oh, creepy. So we see, that's like the moment we realize that she's like taken, which we haven't seen so far. She's like taken the body of Aunt Jean. So she's got a human body now that she can do whatever she pleases with.

Yeah. We see then, yeah, Lucas has found that tunnel. He does an unfathomably stupid thing, I think, which is he parks his car in the middle of the road. Even if this were a spooky place to be, you left your car abandoned in the middle of the road at night you also like raced from the hospital renting a car like what is this man doing anyway he not supporting his girlfriend he parks the car and then sets off on foot um i think to try to find this Yes. He's like basing it off of, yeah, this dream and realizing he has to get to the cabin. Yeah.

Meanwhile, Annabelle comes to. Yes. Wakes up, walks through the house, realizes the girls are not there anymore. So she is freaking out. She calls Lucas, leaves him a voicemail he doesn't answer and she says like she has them i think she's gonna take them to the cabin she's gonna try to kill them she's racing to the cabin they're all racing to the cabin they know that like and and we kind of get at this point you know that's like mama's home yeah mama likes the cabin it's her home away from home uh and we get so they all arrive at they find each other in

the dark woods yeah like literally lucas and annabelle literally like run into each other in the woods i love that like i love that they couldn't have been coordinated i love it for them too and it's romantic. And yeah, he's like, I got your message. She's like, Mama is like, it's real. She's a ghost. And he, to his credit, gets on board very fast. He's like, OK.

He's on board immediately. The ghost has the girls. What do we got to do? Great. That never happens in a horror movie. No, honestly. I know. Way to believe your partner.

If only he'd been freaking awake this whole time. Yes. So they find the partner. If only he'd been freaking awake this whole time. Yes. So they find the cabin. They go in. And they find... It's her corpse. Oh, yes. That's right.

Like Aunt Jean is there. Yeah. He goes like... In the chair. No, she's standing. They walk in. Oh, you're right. And they see from behind Jean

and he goes, Jean and like touches her shoulder and she just like crumples like an empty like human suit. Oh, creepy. So I guess. But it is a great shot of her from behind. Oh, it's so cool. We get two great from behind shots of Jean. Great from behind shots of Jean.

My full review of her performance. Great from behind. my full review of her performance. Right from behind. So I get, what's interesting about that is like, mama needed her corp, her body just to like get to the cabin. And then it was like,

I don't need this anymore. Yeah. Like it's a raincoat or something. It's very funny to me, the logic of this world. and it doesn't matter. I'm not, you guys know,

it's like, it's not that fun to poke holes, like in a movie like that, but it is very funny to me. Like she didn't seem to need a body to get to the house from the cabin but it's very funny that she like needed a body as like a little car to get the girls like so the girls so the girls are at the cabin right no one is at the cabin we thought so we thought so but oh no uh-oh skin body suit lots of cherry pits. No kids. Oh, but they see, Justine like looks up and sees the cliff that she saw in her little

mama vision is right there. And she goes, they're on the cliff. For any flaws of the movie, I think this is like this really epic, beautiful final location. It's great. beautiful final location it's like this it's this like jutting out cliff and it is like truly out of a fairy tale like the way it's like set designed in the look of it and it and this is we realize or at least it looks like the same cliff from the dream from where mama fell from where her baby all of it and and mama is like they race to it and it is like this it's truly what like stuck in my brain the most mama is like floating this like ethereal ethereal like and we've seen sort of like emma had said like these

like wisps of her and it's just this like true dream sequence almost like visual of her and she's holding both girls right? No they're standing in front or sitting in front of her and she's like putting flowers she's like giving them little like flower crowns and like adorning them and Victoria looks very sad

and scared and Lily is elated and it feels like they're like preparing for a thing. Mama's like getting them ready. At which point Lucas and Annabelle show up and like call for the

girls. And I think Victoria is like you guys should go. Like, no, it's okay. Like, she, like, made some deal, I think, to spare their lives. Yeah.

Like, and to go with Mama. Yeah. And it's, like, it's such a, like, it's truly, especially in this realm, like, it's such an emotional scene. Like, it's, like, this mother, like, her her daughters in her mind you know and so she goes to like what it looks like walk off the cliff with the girls um and jessica chastain goes like no wait and oh she says her name she calls her by name which we've never said her name is edith uh she says edith and we see that she has brought her baby corpse. It was like in one of the boxes from the doctor's office.

And she is like holding her baby. It's all like wrapped up. Like wrapped in a little blanket. Like it just looks like a little blanket bundle. But she has it with her. So she offers the baby to Mama, who takes it and, like, holds her baby and, like, pulls back the cloth. It's just skeleton at this point. And, like, starts sobbing.

Oh, God. And, like, sort of regains her human form for a minute. Yeah. You see, like, the actual woman. And, yeah, she, like, un-Mamas kind of into like this, the actual face of the woman. And she's like, as I mean, it's like this heartbreaking moment of like the real woman holding her dead baby, you know, and like, yeah, we're seeing this like connection that is like the whole reason for her like haunting. And it does feel like you assume that it's going to be the moment that it's like, because she Jessica Chastain and we're all believing like she was searching the whole time and that's why she took the girls and now

she has her baby and in this moment where she like has the baby Nicholas or Nikolai Lucas and Annabelle take like take the girls back so now the girls are standing with them and then Lily cries out for mama

mama turns around and says Lily Lily cries out for Mama. Mama turns around and says, Lily? And then chucks her baby skeleton off the cliff. Oh my God. And goes for the girls again. The fury rages in her face again. And she's like, no, these are my children now. And it is such a great reveal. I truly was like, oh, this is all going to work out just fine.

It's going to be a happy ending. She got her baby. She can go fly off. I want these kids. These are my kids. And she's like scary again. Terrifying. Like that is not human at all is like a total monster again. And it's like scary again, terrifying, like that is not human at all, is like a total monster again.

And it's like, wah! And comes for them. And like stabs Lucas with her finger. Yeah, her big spine. She just like spindly stabs him. He falls to the ground. Suddenly so like violent and chaotic. Like that's why I love this whole end scene so much is that like you truly get this like mystical like oh it

was a ghost you just and then it's like no it's a fucking angry ass monster like it's not like it's both things you know yes she stabs him he falls to the ground uh she like again like knocks annabelle down and like looks like she's trying to like suck her body out like it's weird the way she like yeah on top of her um and again i think victoria is like no like leave her alone leave her so lily and anna lily and victoria then both go with mama again to like walk off the cliff again she kind of has them and annabelle is like comes to you again and is like crawling sort of honestly like sort of mama style like it's like she's like crawling on the ground to try to get to them and mama like the power of mom of being a mom like pushes her down and and

victoria keeps saying go to sleep go to sleep annabelle and so, like, trying to save her life and is, like, willing. They're both going to go with Mama to wherever this is. And so Annabelle, like, won't give up. And she keeps going. And she keeps going. Finally, the girls have, each of them are holding Mama's hands. They go to, like, jump off the cliff. And we see that they're being tugged by something

Annabelle's got her grip on Victoria and is not letting her go not gonna let her go and Victoria then lets go of Mama's hand and stays with Annabelle so now she's like holding onto Annabelle

still on the cliff and Mama's got Lily. So they're like split now. And it's this like, again, I'm so like emotionally moved by this movie. But it's this like heartbreaking moment where we have like Lily basically being like, come Mama. Right. And it's like they're the two with like the sisters are having this moment where you know we've been watching them like victoria grows much closer to annabelle and there's like

lily with mama like so happy uh and they're completely like split at this point um you go yeah so lily is like trying to get victoria come and Victoria is like, no, I'm going to stay. Mama accepts that Victoria is going to stay. Takes Lily. Holds her to her. Backs off the cliff is floating in the air, holding Lily. It envelops them in a sort of black silk cocoon. Yeah, it's like this sort of cyclone, like, floating in the air off of the cliff.

And Annabelle is, like, crying and screaming for Lily and trying to get Lily to stay with them. Victoria, like, they're trying to get Lily to stay with them, but she's going with Mama. And then, like, the cocoon just, like, falls from the sky and bursts into a bunch of mobs. Yeah, this, like, crazy drop. They just. They just become this swarm of moths together. Oh, wow. So then Annabelle is holding Victoria. They're both sobbing. Lucas is apparently alive.

I thought he was stabbed in the heart, but he's like, fine. And he comes over to them and they're all... That's what I mean by like this movie is not about Lucas no he really he really biffs it and it's a bummer because it would have been nice to have him more I'm happy for Jessica Chastain but yeah he's like not really doing much

in this movie honestly but he comes to them and they're other than being beautiful they all just like sort of the three of them hold each other and cry and then a little moth lands on victoria's finger and she looks at it and she goes lily and the moth just sort of like stays there and looks at her and uh that's it oh my god that's it that's it yes that that's it what a freaking ending so mama got one of them i mean lily was i mean she wasn't coming back talk about not being set up for success no no there was no amount of pulling herself up by her bootstraps that lily could have done to um reverse that

trauma i don't think so. Lily was raised by Mama and Jerry's in the woods and that That's her Mama. Yeah, she wanted to go with her Mama. I think that it is such a like, even though it's heartbreaking that one sister leaves and one sister stays. It's also

like what tracks. Totally. You're like, yeah, that's her Mama and it is different like that's enough of an age of development that you're like i believe it and that she's like not and she's not interested in like joining society she doesn't give a shit like that's the only world she knows that's her mama she took good care of her like yeah bye yeah you know this movie sounds good it doesn't sound too scary actually it's really's really not. I feel like it's manageable. And there are some, I will say there are like some good jump scares.

And certainly if you watch it during the day, you'll miss most of those because it's very reliant on darkness. But it's not really too scary, I wouldn't say. I put it way in the category of like spooky, mood, ethereal atmosphere. It's like mood so much, you know? And I think that that's like the impossible to describe like genre that this like sits in. And why, yeah, I love I love when we get one from this world because it isn't about like it's just not about a lot of the same like like tools that you normally find, which I love in horror and scary movies. But there's just like this whole other world that is like getting a lot of attention and love.

This movie does question my theory of I had just been telling Joel the other day of like, you know, I think doing the podcast has made me not scared of ghosts anymore. Like, you know, I think doing the podcast has made me not scared of ghosts anymore. That, like, I think if I were – I still don't want to see one or encounter one. But I was like, I feel like ghosts are not, like, inherently bad or evil, right? It's like demons you really want to watch out for. And then this movie was a ghost who, like, no, this ghost murdered people straight up. But that's what I mean, right? That's why it's like i love this idea of like oh my god how sad is this mom yeah it's like we're told that ghosts just want and you're

searching for they just want but then it's like yeah and she's just like wants to fuck people up and kill them and like snatch a kid and like she's also a bitch she's angry she's pissed she's an angry bitch like she's and even if she gets what she's supposed to be searching for she's angry she's pissed off she's an angry bitch like she's and even if she gets what she's supposed to be searching for she's still not happy which is like that tracks for me in scary movies where i feel like there's often this logic it like happens in the paranormals where it's like i'll logic with i'm gonna logic with this evil spirit and i'm gonna like i know what you said let me just bargain with this and then it's like no they're evil they're still gonna take what they can't like it's like you never had this fight they'll take both they're evil they're still gonna take what they can't like it's like you're never satisfied they'll take both they're not gonna like make a trade with you although it truly is funny how she

just flings the bones of her child off i think that's my favorite part is that my favorite it is such a huge reveal you are like you can't believe jessica chesting actually has that has it with her she's like you see it come out. It's this little shrouded thing. And she's holding this corpse like very tenderly. And then it's like, bye! I don't want it anymore! That's my old baby. Who gives a shit?

I'm over it. But Jess, thank you so much. It was so nice to have you on the pod again you're officially a correspondent oh that's a big honor i do not take it lightly uh i would i truly it means a lot um no i was i really really like it's i love the idea of trying to figure out like what you like in this world and in the genre and it was like i literally like had texted betsy and i was just like what do we call like just house on a hill yeah spooky like i don't know what it is but like victorian movie it's just this like moody like moody scary it's yeah and i'm sure there's a term and i don't know it but um but i think this is certainly a flawed one it has it's we some bad wigs and some silly stuff but i think it's like

on the higher tier like i think it's like it holds up i i really recommend it for especially yeah for people who don't want to see like gory stuff and nasty stuff yeah there's a lot a lot of other stuff but anyways i i'm so happy to get to share it with you guys. Yeah, thank you, Jess. Wow. Thanks, guys. I guess there weren't any fun voices in this. There aren't really fun. Usually we like to do a good, fun voice. Because Mama didn't have a fun voice, did she?

No, we don't really get. No, we never hear her. It's just more like growls. Oh, yeah, it is kind of like. She sings at one point, but I don't remember the song. So we could just do, you know, we could just do a normal song. So we could just do normal goodbye. Sometimes that's just what it is.

Okay. I hope everybody lets themselves feel that joy as much as they need to. And yeah. From all of us here, goodbye. Goodbye.

Hey everyone, thanks for listening from all of us here. Goodbye. Goodbye. Bye. Patreon at TSDW Podcast. Our Patreon is filled with cool things like bonus episodes and bingo cards. And you can also write in and give us suggestions for other content you'd like for us to produce. We'd love to hear from you. Just wanted to also give you guys a heads up that we will be taking next week off to celebrate Thanksgiving. So we hope you guys have a great holiday. We will miss you dearly, but we'll be back the next week. I hope you guys celebrate safely and just know that we love you. Okay. Bye.